Quinn Insurance in Administration

[muppet]

I'm sure they did.

'They' probably didn't secretly bet it all on the world's worst bank though.

[Aaron Boone]

Unless you drive from Derrylin to Ballyconnell, you can't fathom the impact Quinn Group have had. It's immense stuff in a remote area.

[supersarsfields]

I'm sure they did.

'They' probably didn't secretly bet it all on the world's worst bank though.

I don't think any one claimed "they" did.

[muppet]

I'm sure they did.

'They' probably didn't secretly bet it all on the world's worst bank though.

I don't think any one claimed "they" did.

But people argue that the one guy who did do it, somehow doesn't have to face the consequences and pay it back, because he was a great fella.

[supersarsfields]

Who's saying that? People are saying it should be taken into account regarding applying for temporary release, which I believe is standard enough. The arguments against the loans aren't based on job creation in the past.

[muppet]

Who's saying that? People are saying it should be taken into account regarding applying for temporary release, which I believe is standard enough. The arguments against the loans aren't based on job creation in the past.

You would be the first Quinn supporters I have seen, read or heard say that. And you are correct. Job creation or any other such spin has absolutely nothing to do with his court case. Which makes it all the more annoying to constantly hear it from his supporters.

[supersarsfields]

Who's saying that? People are saying it should be taken into account regarding applying for temporary release, which I believe is standard enough. The arguments against the loans aren't based on job creation in the past.

You would be the first Quinn supporters I have seen, read or heard say that. And you are correct. Job creation or any other such spin has absolutely nothing to do with his court case. Which makes it all the more annoying to constantly hear it from his supporters.

I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

[muppet]

I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

My understanding is that there were two separate 'loan' arrangements.

The first was a normal loan to the Quinn Group from Anglo (circa €450 as you said). This loan as I understand was not a problem until all of the other issues arose. To my mind belligerence from Anglo on this loan may justify some of the criticism on the part of the Quinn Group.

However there were the other loans.

According to Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (ch 7 page 105) SQ's method was to "buy the market". "He would wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then he would increase his prices".

This might explain why he was the dominant employer in his area.

"Quinn would frequently tell his bankers at Anglo with some pride that each of them (his 5 children) was a billionaire,.."

I know you know what a CFD is and how it works.

page 107:

"In October 2005 Quinn had CFD positions in Anglo, AIB and Bank of Ireland............"

page 108

"From late 2006 Quinn started reducing his investments in these other companies to increase his bet on Anglo."

"Newspaper reports in the early 2007 estimated that Quinn held a large stake, about 5%, in Anglo through CFDs."

"By June of that year, speculation about the size of his stake in the bank had reached fever pitch.....the bank was receiving regular inquiries about Quinn from investors, market analysts and, most crucially, rating agencies...Media speculation in Late August put his stake at about 11%...."

page 109

"At the end of 2007 the Anglo board felt it was time for a face-to-face encounter with Quinn."

page 110

"Before the meeting, Quinn and McCaffrey had discussed whether they should disclose the exact scale of Quinn's stake in Anglo or just tell the bankers that is was 'large'. Quinn wanted to be absolutely upfront with them on the size of the stake, and so he and McCaffery spent a little time working out the percentage.
                                                       Undeterred - or indeed emboldened - by the falling share price, Quinn had spent the previous three months snapping up a large amount of Anglo stock through CFDs. He believed that the price would rise again."

page 111

"After the volley of compliments between Quinn and Fitzpatrick, the 4 men got down to the real business. Fitzpatrick and Drumm asked the question: how big was Quinn's CFD stake in the bank? He replied that he held a stake of about 24% of the shares.
Fitzpatrick and Drumm were gobsmacked. Fitxpatrick physically recoiled in his seat. Drumm late told colleagues that it was the only time he ever saw Fitzpatrick rendered speechless."

"Quinn seemed to turn to Fitzpatrick, a man he admired, for approval. But instead he saw utter dismay. Everyone in the room now understood the gravity of the situation they were in."

"Drumm....told Quinn....that if word got out about the size of his stake in the bank, the share price would most likely collapse, with damaging consequences for the banks funding and deposits."

page 113

I won't qoute it but there was an exchange between Fitzpatrick and the Regulator which according to Carswell suggests the Regulator hadn't a clue about CFDs and didn't understand the gravity of the situation.

page 114

"In the months after the Ardboyne meeting, Quinn did not reduce his stake in Anglo. On the contrary, he gambled even further, increasing his holding to 28 or 29% at its peak during 2008. Quinn clearly didn't take Anglo's concerns about the size of his investment seriously."

There is then a hilarious piece whereby Anglo asked the Regulator (the same one that obviously knew nothing about CFDs on page 113) whether Anglo had to declare the size of Quinn's stake to the market. The Regulator said it didn't as it was a CFD.

page 116 "...and by late 2007 Quinn had loans of just over €1bn with Anglo.............The bank had the added layer of security which it believed would make it bulletproof - it had the full personal guarantee of Sean Quinn on all of his loans" (NB there were no loans against the CFD at this stage).

Anglo believed that Quinn had inflated the share price by taking such a huge stake. While this is hard to prove it seems likely. Quinn may have bought shares, drove the price up to its high of 2007/8, and thought: 'look how well they are doing' and bought some more.

Days after the meeting above the run on Northern Rock began. At that stage Quinn's involvement with Anglo was all of his own doing. The money he lost, was lost by himself, not Anglo. Yes they got involved, to protect themselves, which is under investigation and if they are found guilty of wrong-doing I hope they all serve the maximum penalties.

But the Quinn supporters' sleeveen claims that it was all Anglo's fault and Quinn was somehow a victim, I personally find very galling. We are not stupid.

[trileacman]

I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

My understanding is that there were two separate 'loan' arrangements.

The first was a normal loan to the Quinn Group from Anglo (circa €450 as you said). This loan as I understand was not a problem until all of the other issues arose. To my mind belligerence from Anglo on this loan may justify some of the criticism on the part of the Quinn Group.

However there were the other loans.

According to Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (ch 7 page 105) SQ's method was to "buy the market". "He would wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then he would increase his prices".

This might explain why he was the dominant employer in his area.


But the Quinn supporters' sleeveen claims that it was all Anglo's fault and Quinn was somehow a victim, I personally find very galling. We are not stupid.

As someone "in his area" I can tell you that is not who Quinn operated. Not only that but the dog in the street could tell you that Quinn didn't "corner" the Irish market in glass, insulation, insurance or wind farms. The only people who would spout or believe such bullshite are those determined to find a stick to beat Quinn with and twist the truth.

But I suppose that is considered just another "sleeveen" claim or some other snide derogatory remark.

[muppet]

I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

My understanding is that there were two separate 'loan' arrangements.

The first was a normal loan to the Quinn Group from Anglo (circa €450 as you said). This loan as I understand was not a problem until all of the other issues arose. To my mind belligerence from Anglo on this loan may justify some of the criticism on the part of the Quinn Group.

However there were the other loans.

According to Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (ch 7 page 105) SQ's method was to "buy the market". "He would wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then he would increase his prices".

This might explain why he was the dominant employer in his area.


But the Quinn supporters' sleeveen claims that it was all Anglo's fault and Quinn was somehow a victim, I personally find very galling. We are not stupid.

As someone "in his area" I can tell you that is not who Quinn operated. Not only that but the dog in the street could tell you that Quinn didn't "corner" the Irish market in glass, insulation, insurance or wind farms. The only people who would spout or believe such bullshite are those determined to find a stick to beat Quinn with and twist the truth.

But I suppose that is considered just another "sleeveen" claim or some other snide derogatory remark.

And where did I say that he cornered the 'Irish' market?

The mantra is that he was the only one creating jobs in Cavan/Fermanagh.

I assumed Carswell was referring to his local market while building up his companies.

[trileacman]

I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

My understanding is that there were two separate 'loan' arrangements.

The first was a normal loan to the Quinn Group from Anglo (circa €450 as you said). This loan as I understand was not a problem until all of the other issues arose. To my mind belligerence from Anglo on this loan may justify some of the criticism on the part of the Quinn Group.

However there were the other loans.

According to Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (ch 7 page 105) SQ's method was to "buy the market". "He would wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then he would increase his prices".

This might explain why he was the dominant employer in his area.


But the Quinn supporters' sleeveen claims that it was all Anglo's fault and Quinn was somehow a victim, I personally find very galling. We are not stupid.

As someone "in his area" I can tell you that is not who Quinn operated. Not only that but the dog in the street could tell you that Quinn didn't "corner" the Irish market in glass, insulation, insurance or wind farms. The only people who would spout or believe such bullshite are those determined to find a stick to beat Quinn with and twist the truth.

But I suppose that is considered just another "sleeveen" claim or some other snide derogatory remark.

And where did I say that he cornered the 'Irish' market?

The mantra is that he was the only one creating jobs in Cavan/Fermanagh.

I assumed Carswell was referring to his local market while building up his companies.

Quinn cornered the local Glass market? The local insulation market? Have you any idea how stupid that sounds?

[muppet]

I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

My understanding is that there were two separate 'loan' arrangements.

The first was a normal loan to the Quinn Group from Anglo (circa €450 as you said). This loan as I understand was not a problem until all of the other issues arose. To my mind belligerence from Anglo on this loan may justify some of the criticism on the part of the Quinn Group.

However there were the other loans.

According to Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (ch 7 page 105) SQ's method was to "buy the market". "He would wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then he would increase his prices".

This might explain why he was the dominant employer in his area.


But the Quinn supporters' sleeveen claims that it was all Anglo's fault and Quinn was somehow a victim, I personally find very galling. We are not stupid.

As someone "in his area" I can tell you that is not who Quinn operated. Not only that but the dog in the street could tell you that Quinn didn't "corner" the Irish market in glass, insulation, insurance or wind farms. The only people who would spout or believe such bullshite are those determined to find a stick to beat Quinn with and twist the truth.

But I suppose that is considered just another "sleeveen" claim or some other snide derogatory remark.

And where did I say that he cornered the 'Irish' market?

The mantra is that he was the only one creating jobs in Cavan/Fermanagh.

I assumed Carswell was referring to his local market while building up his companies.

Quinn cornered the local Glass market? The local insulation market? Have you any idea how stupid that sounds?

Carswell's book provides the quote, I simply took it from his book as I clearly referenced. I am not aware of any case by any Quinn against Carswell so I hope you won't mind if don't take your word for it.

[muppet]

Here is the full paragraph for your indulgence, enjoy:

CH 7 page 105

Quinn's vast fortune was largely derived from his businesses manufacturing building materials, glass, plastics and radiators along a four-mile stretch of road between Ballyconnell in Co. Cavan and Derrylin in Co. Fermanagh, straddling the border. Quinn's method was to build a manufacturing plant to the highest specification, create the lowest cost for every unit he produced and then 'buy the market' by undercutting rivals products. He would the wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then increase his prices.

The book is about exposing Anglo for what they were, not Quinn, although it does a good job of showing how Quinn blew everything.

[sammymaguire]

I'm sure they did.

'They' probably didn't secretly bet it all on the world's worst bank though.

The Financial Regulator should have known it was the world's worst bank, run by the world's worst bankers but he didn't. Therein lies the massive problem.

Where have ya been by the way?

[supersarsfields]

Muppet, there's few who believe that Sean Quinn was a victim. He put his hands up himself to mistakes he made. And it cost him his own personal wealth and from the looks of it everything he ever built up. But he wanted to work with Anglo to try and pay it back. Instead Anglo decided to try and take everything in a military style take over. Which is fair enough had they done everything by the book themselves. But were they really surprised when SQ decided to fight back and started to expose the corruption of the bank? I know that Senior political representatives now believe they made a c**k up in taking over everything. They would have had a better chance of recovering more of the debt which him on board IMO.