Quinn Insurance in Administration

[supersarsfields]

Because he ran the Quinn Group from nothing into the largest Irish company operating. He invested in a bluechip company that had fiddled it's book to make it look more profitable than it was. A fact that most here don't seem to want to debate when discussing his gamble.

[supersarsfields]

Course he does. Nowhere have I ever said that SQ is free from blame. In fact he may have criminal charges to answer for. But that doesn't automatically mean he loses all rights. And that others who broke the law and acted against him or his family should be given a free reign to do as they please.

[supersarsfields]

And wat about the current management who seem to be working with the state's protection to inforce loans that haven't been proven in court yet?

[Smokin Joe]

Another telling facet of how Quinn Insurace was run was a comment that I heard recently from an employee of one of the big Belfast insurance brokers.

He said that he was not aware of a single person who was employed at a senior level in the insurance industry in Northern Ireland that went to QIL.  That is startling and gives more credence to the fact that Quinn Insurance wasn't ran like, erm...., an insurance company.

His point is that; either QIL didn't want to recruit people experienced in the industry, or that senior people wouldn't go to QIL.  Either way its astounding.

[CiKe]

That's the point, the loans were organised by SQ and Anglo. The money was lent to cover SQ's gamble and was only retrospectively attached to the children. The details of how Anglo went about getting the children to sign will come out in the court cases.
Why do I have faith that SQ would do it? Well he had 38 years experience and was the most successful businessman in Ireland. Other than that I have no reason.
The details about the actuary has been answered previously a couple of times on this thread. They outsourced their actuary requirements to a leading actuary company.

Any other insurance companies do that? Well run ones I mean. Without knowing too much about the insurance industry I'd have thought that actuaries were intimately involved in the ALM side of things - seems beyond stupid to have this outsourced.

[Pangurban]

The last thing the Irish political and media establishments want is a proper enquiry into this whole affair, as it would reveal mind boggling levels of incompetence and downright corruption within both establishments. The Irish Media are running away from their proper role, and refusing to conduct any serious investigate journalism, fearing that big advertisers with vested interests in concealing the truth, would withdraw their accounts. Instead they indulge in vilification of the Quinns, a safe,populist and profitable course. Corrupt institutions and a tame press in search of a fall guy, will never bring justice or truth. This will only be resolved in the European Court of Justice, where it is destined to eventually end up

[Declan]

Media the new villains as Quinns change tack

In the whipping up of a persecution complex, marchers were asked to be foolish enough to buy a fresh conspiracy, writes FINTAN O'TOOLE

WITH SO many big lies abounding, the small ones perhaps hardly matter. But since one of the lies at the Quinn family rally in Ballyconnell on Sunday evening concerns this column, it cannot go unchecked.

The Quinns' "war" (Ciara Quinn's word) to hold on to half a billion euro of public assets involves, as the courts have found, the forgery of documents (by backdating contracts), attempted destruction of records and the giving, under oath, of evidence that could not be true.

But a secondary strategy is the whipping up of a persecution complex. This is a pretty daring idea – to be successful, you need to persuade people that the stripping of public assets is a heroic communal endeavour. Not only do you have to convince them that you're a victim – you have to convince them that they're victims too. You have to tell them that they too are being persecuted.

But who's doing the persecuting? Who's running the conspiracy? At the previous Quinn rally, the finger was pointed largely at the courts. Perhaps because various Quinn cases are now back before the courts, this was evidently thought not to be the best strategy this time. So there was a need for another sinister plot – run by the media. This is standard stuff – people like Michael Lowry have been playing it for years. But this time, the attack was particularly hysterical and violent. Peter Quinn set the tone by calling journalists "bastards".

Just one particular bastard was mentioned in the speeches, however – myself. Patricia Gilheaney, who speaks for the pro-Quinn campaign, told those at the rally that I had called them horrible names: "The people who attend these rallies have been called morons, culchies, idiots by the likes of Fintan O'Toole and co."

I have never, in public or in private, called the people who attend pro-Quinn rallies morons or culchies. I did use the word "idiots" in a column after the first Ballyconnell rally. It is worth giving the full paragraph in which the word appears (on August 7th last): "Very significant numbers of decent, respectable Irish people – not a majority but not a tiny minority either – are in literal contempt of the courts. They really don't give a damn what the courts find – if those findings come into conflict with their own deeper loyalties. They know that two separate High Court judges – Judge Dunne and Judge Kelly, both used to dealing with very bad stuff – have used language of rare vehemence about the actions of the Quinns in stripping €455 million worth of assets from public ownership: 'dishonesty and sharp practice', 'blatant, dishonest and deceitful', 'as far removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be'. Some idiots among them truly believe that the judges are part of a giant conspiracy against the Quinns. Most know damn well that this is nonsense, but they simply don't care."

Any literate person can grasp that two things are being said here. One is that those supporting the Quinns are in the main "decent, respectable Irish people". The other is that there are "some idiots among them" who actually believe that Judge Dunne and Judge Kelly are conspiring with others to do unlawful harm to the Quinns.

I make no apology for describing anyone who holds this belief as an idiot. There is not the tiniest shred of evidence for it. It is not just nonsense but dangerous nonsense – deeply subversive of the rule of law on which our democracy is based.

And there clearly were some such idiots in the crowd at the rally in July. Banners held aloft alleged, for example, "Quinn held for ransom", suggesting that the courts are involved in kidnapping and extortion; "Irish Gov Kidnap Quinn", suggesting that the court had not merely illegally detained Seán Quinn jnr but done so at the behest of the Government; "State sponsored conspiracy", which speaks for itself; and "Irish court allows IBRC to sentence Quinn", meaning that the High Court handed over its powers to a third party and/or conspired with that third party to send a man to jail.

I assume that the Quinns themselves were ashamed of these disgraceful allegations – hence a conspiracy by judges has now been replaced in their demonology by a media conspiracy exemplified by myself. The new conspiracy is as much a sham as the old one. It is based, not only on a false allegation about what was written here, but also on a direct implication that myself and other journalists are, for mercenary reasons, taking instructions from senior civil servants.

Peter Quinn, who is not an idiot and who knows exactly what he is saying, asked the rally, rhetorically, "Could it be that the State's advertising is now the main source of income to the media business in this country or that the Department of Finance told them not to investigate it?" He knows very well that the answer to both of those questions is "no", but he presumably hopes that many of his listeners are foolish enough to think otherwise. So who's taking who for an idiot?

[Hardy]

The mob mentality is disturbing.

[trileacman]

"I didn't call them morons, I called them idiots."

Splitting hairs there Fintan.

[Hardy]

"I didn't call them morons, I called them idiots."

Splitting hairs there Fintan.

Is that really your considered interpretation of what O'Toole said?

[Nally Stand]

Bless the wit of anyone who gives a shite what Fintan O'Toole says.

[Declan]

Bless the wit of anyone who gives a shite what Fintan O'Toole says.

So point out the inaccuracies in his piece then

[supersarsfields]

Well it's his opinions. Nothing wrong with that but no point calling people idiots for disagreeing with him. He doesn't believe it's possible for the Irish courts to be influenced by political powers. Yet we have seen senior politicans, the Regulator and senior civil servants who all look to be involved in the maple 10 deal. It's not really that hard to believe especially when you you at the conditions attached to Sean Quinn Jrs contempt. In fact I'd find it hard to believe otherwise.

[Lone Shark]

SS, nobody is disagreeing with the notion that the political community are capable of bending the rules to suit their own agenda. I think we both agree that it has yet to be proven either way in this case, and that time will reveal whether or not the Quinns deserve to keep their assets. We both have different views right now, but if a court of this land rules that the family are entitled to the spoils of this "war", then so be it.

However the Quinns are going another step here - they are accusing the courts of corruption. That is a huge accusation and if they are doing so without proof, is essentially treason against the state. Of course it's subversive and Fintan O'Toole is right to call it as such - there's nothing opinionated about that. That's the very definition of treason, you are calling into question a fundamental pillar of the state. 

Secondly, it's only the Quinns that seem to want it both ways here. Right now, the law of the land is in favour of IBRC. The Quinns disagree, and they are entitled to appeal that all the way up to the European Court of Justice if they so choose. However it seems to me that they want it both ways. If the courts find in their favour, the state would be obliged to make restitution to them, and as we all know, the state will pay its bills, even when it doesn't have the money to do so. However if the courts rule against them, they want to be able to keep all their stuff anyway. Why the squirrelling away of assets, if you believe in the courts and you believe in right and wrong? Or if you don't believe in the courts, why go through them? Why not just form your own army and declare the independent republic of greater Derrylin, which is pretty much the next step to what they're doing now.


If I was to go up to one of their family's houses and break in, steal their property and commit acts of assault against them, they would rightly call the guards and expect the legal system to prosecute me. Yet they are showing no respect for that same legal system now, instead deciding that they know best and engaging in chicanery to ensure that the Irish taxpayer gets stiffed, REGARDLESS of whether the courts side with them or not.

How in God's name can you not see the malevolence and greed here?

[Nally Stand]

Bless the wit of anyone who gives a shite what Fintan O'Toole says.

So point out the inaccuracies in his piece then

That would mean reading a Fintan O'Toole article. I stopped doing that long long ago. Sad thing is that arrogant arseholes like O'Toole unfortunately are opinion formers for many in Ireland. Small wonder people seem more interested in lambasting Sean Quinn than Anglo and the FF-esque assholes running the country.