Quinn Insurance in Administration

[supersarsfields]

Did our posts just do a switch?

* Ahhh I see. was wondering what the feck was going on.

[Hardy]

And again!

[supersarsfields]

VHI had much lower Solvency rates than QIL and were making less of an attempt at getting to the required solvency rates. (QIL had increased it's CASH reserve by £30M in the first 3 months of 2010)

[Hardy]

Of course, VHI got/gets away with murder.

[IolarCoisCuain]

Thanks for posting that for me Supersarsfields. I appreciate. Damned if I know what to make of it though. As my father used to say, there could be a pair of them in it.

That said, I do think that the Quinns are being roasted by the media. Financial regulations aren't very sexy. The once mighty crashing and burning make for better telly, but that doesn't make the coverage right.

[supersarsfields]

The problem with the media is that to write against Anglo now is to write against the state. So it's the easier and safer way to just focus on the Quinn side without delving any deeper into Anglo's actions.

[Rossfan]

So the poor oul innocent Quinns were walking along one day when Seanie Fitzpatrick jumped out of the bushes , put a gun to their heads and made them sign some papers which they couldn't see or know what was on them.
Then they all went broke and spent the rest of their days getting paid € millions from some Russian Companies.

Ahhhhh the pooor oul harmless devileens 

Meanwhile the 4.4m bol*****s who live in the 26 cos have to pay for it all.
That's the real 

[supersarsfields]

Do you believe that because SQ took a gamble on Anglo (A supposedly regulated bluechip company who were fiddling the books) that any crimes against the Quinns are irrelevant and should not be punished?

[deiseach]

So the poor oul innocent Quinns were walking along one day when Seanie Fitzpatrick jumped out of the bushes , put a gun to their heads and made them sign some papers which they couldn't see or know what was on them.
Then they all went broke and spent the rest of their days getting paid € millions from some Russian Companies.

Ahhhhh the pooor oul harmless devileens 

Meanwhile the 4.4m bol*****s who live in the 26 cos have to pay for it all.
That's the real 

I think it's fair to say that the taxpayer part is neither here nor there. It wasn't Seán Quinn's fault that the taxpayer was landed with the bill for Anglo. However, he still would have been asked to account for the money. He still would have lost the company because he had run it incompetently and had to file for bankruptcy. He still would have ended up in court and be expected to answer for hundreds of millions of euro worth of debts that even he hasn't argued were offered under false pretences. And he still would have tried to stash the money away in a manner that would have made Jean-Claude Duvalier blush. Once upon a time, Seán Quinn was honest and successful. Now, he's neither.

[oisinog]

So the poor oul innocent Quinns were walking along one day when Seanie Fitzpatrick jumped out of the bushes , put a gun to their heads and made them sign some papers which they couldn't see or know what was on them.
Then they all went broke and spent the rest of their days getting paid € millions from some Russian Companies.

Ahhhhh the pooor oul harmless devileens 

Meanwhile the 4.4m bol*****s who live in the 26 cos have to pay for it all.
That's the real 

I think it's fair to say that the taxpayer part is neither here nor there. It wasn't Seán Quinn's fault that the taxpayer was landed with the bill for Anglo. However, he still would have been asked to account for the money. He still would have lost the company because he had run it incompetently and had to file for bankruptcy. He still would have ended up in court and be expected to answer for hundreds of millions of euro worth of debts that even he hasn't argued were offered under false pretences. And he still would have tried to stash the money away in a manner that would have made Jean-Claude Duvalier blush. Once upon a time, Seán Quinn was honest and successful. Now, he's neither.

It was Anglo who forced him into bankruptcy after rejecting Sean Quinns repayment plan. If Anglo had accepted it there is a strong chance that some of this loan would be paid back and Sean Quinn would still be running his empire

[deiseach]

It was Anglo who forced him into bankruptcy after rejecting Sean Quinns repayment plan. If Anglo had accepted it there is a strong chance that some of this loan would be paid back and Sean Quinn would still be running his empire

So you think Seán Quinn ran the company well, do you? The man who ran the company's reserves into the ground in the good times is the man who would have traded his way out of trouble in a contracting market. Give us a break.

[supersarsfields]

So the poor oul innocent Quinns were walking along one day when Seanie Fitzpatrick jumped out of the bushes , put a gun to their heads and made them sign some papers which they couldn't see or know what was on them.
Then they all went broke and spent the rest of their days getting paid € millions from some Russian Companies.

Ahhhhh the pooor oul harmless devileens 

Meanwhile the 4.4m bol*****s who live in the 26 cos have to pay for it all.
That's the real 

I think it's fair to say that the taxpayer part is neither here nor there. It wasn't Seán Quinn's fault that the taxpayer was landed with the bill for Anglo. However, he still would have been asked to account for the money. He still would have lost the company because he had run it incompetently and had to file for bankruptcy. He still would have ended up in court and be expected to answer for hundreds of millions of euro worth of debts that even he hasn't argued were offered under false pretences. And he still would have tried to stash the money away in a manner that would have made Jean-Claude Duvalier blush. Once upon a time, Seán Quinn was honest and successful. Now, he's neither.

SQ would have been bankrupt no doubt. But the company wouldn't have been. That's the issue. The Company was in the childrens name and had been since 2002. Any debt that SQ had gotten himself into couldn't be attached to the company as he wasn't the owner of it. However Anglo pumped money into the company and got the children to sign restrospective documents saying that the loans were for the purpuse of buying property rather than covering loses in shares. The current management of IBRC then tried to get the children to sign retrospective loan agreements to confirm that they had been given full legal advise when signing the other documents. (I wonder will action be taken against the current management of IBRC for this?  ) which they declined. This means Anglo/ Ibrc don't have the legal documents in place to enforce the personal guarantees and is why the Quinns can contest the validity of the loans.

It was Anglo who forced him into bankruptcy after rejecting Sean Quinns repayment plan. If Anglo had accepted it there is a strong chance that some of this loan would be paid back and Sean Quinn would still be running his empire

So you think Seán Quinn ran the company well, do you? The man who ran the company's reserves into the ground in the good times is the man who would have traded his way out of trouble in a contracting market. Give us a break.

The Quinns are disputing the call on the Insurance fund as well Deiseach. Funny how after being in place for a year the administrators still said that the company was "profitable" but now suddenly we have a call apon the IF. Why are they so against a public enquiry into the QIL administration if their figures tie up? I have to say I'd put more faith into the Quinns trading themselves out of things than I would of having Anglo running things. They've now gotten rid of 17 senior managers since SQ's time. As mentioned yesterday O Brien (Chairman ofthe Group) had a page up online last year that said that the group would make £100M profit. Within months it was down and he was explaining to the bondholders why he wouldn't hit the target of £100M. He the went back to say that he wouldn't even hit the revised target of £80M. They are making a mess of it because they have gotten rid of the managers who built the company up from the ground and replacing them with bankers and accountants who have no commercial experience. How they can throw away (And when I say throw away I mean pay hundred of thousands of pounds to individuals in pay offs) managers who had maybe 20-30 years experience in the industry.

[Hereiam]

Sean Quinn's repayment plan would not have been worth the paper it was wrote on. If they had agreed to this SQ would have had more time to stash away the millions. They had to act quick. I agree the Sean Quinn started out with good intentions but he was blinded by the greed. It is sad what has happened but it is of his own doing.

[deiseach]

SQ would have been bankrupt no doubt. But the company wouldn't have been. That's the issue. The Company was in the childrens name and had been since 2002. Any debt that SQ had gotten himself into couldn't be attached to the company as he wasn't the owner of it. However Anglo pumped money into the company and got the children to sign restrospective documents saying that the loans were for the purpuse of buying property rather than covering loses in shares. The current management of IBRC then tried to get the children to sign retrospective loan agreements to confirm that they had been given full legal advise when signing the other documents. (I wonder will action be taken against the current management of IBRC for this?  ) which they declined. This means Anglo/ Ibrc don't have the legal documents in place to enforce the personal guarantees and is why the Quinns can contest the validity of the loans.

Hang on a sec. The money Anglo loaned to Quinn was because he had taken a gamble on Anglo's share price. Are the Quinns saying they had no idea why Anglo were giving them all this money? Either they knew, in which case they were co-conspirators, or they didn't know, in which case they were incompetent beyond words. Either way, they shouldn't have been running such a vital company.

The Quinns are disputing the call on the Insurance fund as well Deiseach. Funny how after being in place for a year the administrators still said that the company was "profitable" but now suddenly we have a call apon the IF. Why are they so against a public enquiry into the QIL administration if their figures tie up? I have to say I'd put more faith into the Quinns trading themselves out of things than I would of having Anglo running things. They've now gotten rid of 17 senior managers since SQ's time. As mentioned yesterday O Brien (Chairman ofthe Group) had a page up online last year that said that the group would make £100M profit. Within months it was down and he was explaining to the bondholders why he wouldn't hit the target of £100M. He the went back to say that he wouldn't even hit the revised target of £80M. They are making a mess of it because they have gotten rid of the managers who built the company up from the ground and replacing them with bankers and accountants who have no commercial experience. How they can throw away (And when I say throw away I mean pay hundred of thousands of pounds to individuals in pay offs) managers who had maybe 20-30 years experience in the industry.

Why do you have faith that Seán Quinn would have done a better job? Anyone who read the FT interview would see a man who hadn't a clue. I didn't know how much I was being paid. It's all in the accounts, you'd better ask them. You talk about these experienced managers who did such a brilliant job. Can you tell me one thing that has never gone away: did Quinn Insurance employ an actuary?

[supersarsfields]

That's the point, the loans were organised by SQ and Anglo. The money was lent to cover SQ's gamble and was only retrospectively attached to the children. The details of how Anglo went about getting the children to sign will come out in the court cases.
Why do I have faith that SQ would do it? Well he had 38 years experience and was the most successful businessman in Ireland. Other than that I have no reason.
The details about the actuary has been answered previously a couple of times on this thread. They outsourced their actuary requirements to a leading actuary company.