Quinn Insurance in Administration

[supersarsfields]

This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf

Thanks for posting that. Ample evidence that Seán Quinn is a bare-faced liar whose assurances are utterly worthless

Yeah thanks for posting up the article alright. If TYP's was looking for evidence of Irish Times bias then this is it. I'll run through their points.

1) Argument about standing in front of Judge Dunne.
They're arguing two different points here. Quinn admitted that they (the family) had taken action to hold assets. But said that he wasn't directly involved in orchestrating it. Petey was the ringleader, and SQ had very little involvement in it as he hadn't been involved in the overseas properties. Two different points.

2) Claiming Quinn wasn't sacked by the Anglo

Talk about a straw man argument. Quinn was sacked by the share receiver that Anglo appointed.

3) Whether the dept is the Quinn Family's or Anglo's.

I'll give them this one. The judge ruled at the time that the Quinns owed the money , no arguments. But Sean Quinn made these comments at the weekend. Since then judge made his ruling in 2011 there has been charges against Anglo for share support and now the Quinns are contesting it. We'll find out next year who's right so can hardly hang Quinn here for arguing his side.

4) Argument about whether the regulator is right or wrong.

Again two separate arguments. Quinn said that it was right and proper that he was asked to stand down from QI. He never said that putting the company into administration was OK. So again who's lying here?

5) Whether SQ caused Anglo to fail

I think this has been put to bed. Most if not all economists admit that Anglo was f**ked regardless of Quinn due to their over exposure on the Irish property market. Remember Anglo got f**ked to the tune of £35B Quinn was involved in 2.8 of that.
You can hardly call Quinn a liar for what he said.

6) The figures about Quinns profits.

This one is laughable. Quinn had claimed that QG had made 4-5-600 M. They article openly admits it made 492M in 2007. Talk about Sh*te.

If people are holding this up as proof of a reason to hang Quinn, then I should put up the leaflet that was handed out at the rally. Both are equally one sided.

[Hardy]

Why is Mickey Harte afraid of God, though?

[supersarsfields]

Cause he has Fermanagh primed for a big push for Ulster next year.

[orangeman]

RRHF

I've scratched my head reading some posts on here but, in fairness, yours simply is unbelievable.

I have great respect for Mickey Harte, but I prefer to take my information from seasoned business analysts, court analysts, political analysts in print, radio and tv and from people I know for years whom I have sat down with over a few pints who know the inside track and who have filled me in on the bits that isn't/cannot be reported.

I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

Supersarsfields has done his and is doing his best to show how Quinn has been shafted here and to be fair to him has consistently said that Quinn is not without blame.

With regard to your bit in bold Shamrock Shore, I'd be interested in what information you've been told in the pub by those who are in the know as you seem very much of the view, admamant in fact,  that it's Quinns fault and that he's should take what's come his way and what will come his way and leave it at that.

The information you have might help those of us who are to a degree defending Quinn to open our minds to the possibility that Quinn should roll over and lie down.

But somehow, that's a scenario I cannot envisage. The 16 charges over share support as past few weeks has seen to that in my opinion.

But if you want to send me a PM with a broad synopsis, I'd be happy to take it on board.

[Shamrock Shore]

No - I am not saying it's all Quinn's fault. What I am saying is that the actions of him and his family to frustrate the courts by hiding and shifting assets since then are despicable.

Quinn went to Anglo, cap in hand, to bail him out of the mess of his own doing. They then became superglued together and sank. Anglo made other mistakes for sure but time/courts will tell the truth - if only Quinn would allow it.

I won't be pm-ing anyone on anything relating to this nor do I want any.

[deiseach]

I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

It isn't a zero sum game. They're both guilty of corruption and the sooner a few more Bernie Madoff-style prison sentences are handed down, the better. It irks me though that Seán Quinn is so successfully turning this into a Jacks against culchies discussion when it should be about honest folk against greedy bastards.

[orangeman]

No - I am not saying it's all Quinn's fault. What I am saying is that the actions of him and his family to frustrate the courts by hiding and shifting assets since then are despicable.

Quinn went to Anglo, cap in hand, to bail him out of the mess of his own doing. They then became superglued together and sank. Anglo made other mistakes for sure but time/courts will tell the truth - if only Quinn would allow it.

I won't be pm-ing anyone on anything relating to this nor do I want any.

If only. Courts and finding the truth don't really go hand in hand.

Anglo was inevitably on the way down. Quinn losses didn't help.

[johnneycool]

I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

It isn't a zero sum game. They're both guilty of corruption and the sooner a few more Bernie Madoff-style prison sentences are handed down, the better. It irks me though that Seán Quinn is so successfully turning this into a Jacks against culchies discussion when it should be about honest folk against greedy b**tards.

I'd like to see a lot of white collars in the clink as well.

The only aspect of this I'm in agreement with Quinn is that I'd like to see his court case with Anglo go ahead sooner rather than later.

And I think I speak for all GAA, sport loving, white, male, car owners, samsung mobile phone users out there.

P.S. I've supported the consolidation of jobs in the Fermanagh/Cavan area as I've bought Quinn cement, 70mm double foil backed cavity insulation and I even think my radiators are from the Quinn group, I've also bought drink in his pub on the drumcondra road as well.

[Bingo]

I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

It isn't a zero sum game. They're both guilty of corruption and the sooner a few more Bernie Madoff-style prison sentences are handed down, the better. It irks me though that Seán Quinn is so successfully turning this into a Jacks against culchies discussion when it should be about honest folk against greedy b**tards.

Thats the crux of it for me. Initially I would have been looking at Quinn in a favourable light but the more I've heard and the more it goes on, he was no better than the bankers, the developers and the like, he wanted it all and the gambles he took were for all personal gain. Heard some serious back stories about it all from a friend in Dublin who is involved in the cleaning up the mess, its certainly not pretty or paints anyone in a favourable light.

Seems to be a massive divide between what people see in Quinn and the D4 developers. The main pro-Quinn camp seems to be saying that he created jobs and wealth etc, but the developers also created a massive swell of jobs and wealth as well. We all know how it ended up and how it got out of control with the developers also largely responsible, but they were risk takers, like Quinn, and created jobs on the back of it. Not defending them and its a simplistic approach.

I imagine the point we are at how and the rallys are about is what happens next.

But Jarlath Burns only made himself trying to debate it on the radio yesterday, way out of his depth.

[LeoMc]

I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

It isn't a zero sum game. They're both guilty of corruption and the sooner a few more Bernie Madoff-style prison sentences are handed down, the better. It irks me though that Seán Quinn is so successfully turning this into a Jacks against culchies discussion when it should be about honest folk against greedy b**tards.

I'd like to see a lot of white collars in the clink as well.

The only aspect of this I'm in agreement with Quinn is that I'd like to see his court case with Anglo go ahead sooner rather than later.

And I think I speak for all GAA, sport loving, white, male, car owners, samsung mobile phone users out there.

P.S. I've supported the consolidation of jobs in the Fermanagh/Cavan area as I've bought Quinn cement, 70mm double foil backed cavity insulation and I even think my radiators are from the Quinn group, I've also bought drink in his pub on the drumcondra road as well.

I agree with the first line highlighted but I disagree with your speaking out for me and intend to join the breakaway Galaxy Ace Association. I think this is the GAA Jarlath was speaking about.

[winghalfun]

One of the great strengths of the GAA was that "we stand by our own", Mr Kelly said, adding that if people were in the gutter it did not mean the GAA turned their backs on them.

Such a ridiculous statement from Sean Kelly.
The Quinns are a million miles (and even more £'s from being in the gutter) and are very much unlikely to be.

Also reading some of the statements from some of the other Ballypuddle Martyrs there was a lot of mention about justice.

What form would this justice take?

[Main Street]

That's a good article by Fitzpatrick.

How much money was lent by Anglo  "to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet"?
€2.8bn?   

Why was Quinn's 25% share deemed horrifying by Anglo?  was that due to the dodgy reckless nature of the share purchase?
How come Anglo were in the dark about Quinn's share purchase?

€450m.
Anglo weren't aware as he was using CFD s, essentially promises tom buy the shares.
They were probably horrified as the books would have to be opened up.

Thanks Leo.
Is that €450m loan the bone of contention, the alleged dodgy loan?
The bulk of the €2.8bn debt is not contested, a debt run up by Quinn's promises to purchase shares (CFD's)?

[LeoMc]

That's a good article by Fitzpatrick.

How much money was lent by Anglo  "to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet"?
€2.8bn?   

Why was Quinn's 25% share deemed horrifying by Anglo?  was that due to the dodgy reckless nature of the share purchase?
How come Anglo were in the dark about Quinn's share purchase?

€450m.
Anglo weren't aware as he was using CFD s, essentially promises tom buy the shares.
They were probably horrified as the books would have to be opened up.

Thanks Leo.
Is that €450m loan the bone of contention, the alleged dodgy loan?
The bulk of the €2.8bn debt is not contested, a debt run up by Quinn's promises to purchase shares (CFD's)?

Sorry should have been clearer, the €450m loan I refered to was in the form of 10 loans to other parties (the Golden circle of conttrollable(!) clients)  to buy up shares to stop / slow the slide when SQ's exposure due to the CFD's became known.
Based on the charges brought against Anglo officials there were a further 6 loans to Quinn family members. I do not know the value of these (there are a number of figures bandied about from €450m to 2.1bn) nor what went to Quinn family / Quinn finance / Quinn Group.

[supersarsfields]

It's the other way about Main street. The 450 odd million isn't contested by the Quinns. The other 2.3B is.

[Tubberman]

It's the other way about Main street. The 450 odd million isn't contested by the Quinns. The other 2.3B is.

Except that (according to the media at least!) Quinn is deliberately trying to hide (from the state and by extension the taxpayers) the assets that the €450m loans were secured against.