Quinn Insurance in Administration

[Maguire01]

It's one big f**k you to the Irish state. I've no arguments to that.
Considering the Irish state have taken no action to protect them and have decided to give anglo full reign to do as they like, I completely agree with their actions. The State had multiple options to run the case of liability before anything else. They decided not to do so but to allow anglo to work away on loans they knew could be deemed illegal.

And a big f**k you to me and all other Irish taxpayers.
Jarlath burns was just on today fm with fintan o'toole on other side. Apparently jarlathtold the crowd the other day that "the GAA community wanted justice for the quinns". So much for speaking in a personal capacity.
He said he didn't want to get involved in "an economic debate" because he knew he'd lose hands down.
Instead us argument was SQ is a humble man who created employment in border area. I don't think anyone is disputing that but it hardly gives you carte blanche to do as you like.

Not exactly the smartest way to argue this one! And indeed, what mandate has he to speak for the GAA community?

[Maguire01]

This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf

Agreed. Doesn't help his credibility.

[Lone Shark]

It's one big f**k you to the Irish state. I've no arguments to that.
Considering the Irish state have taken no action to protect them and have decided to give anglo full reign to do as they like, I completely agree with their actions. The State had multiple options to run the case of liability before anything else. They decided not to do so but to allow anglo to work away on loans they knew could be deemed illegal.

This seems to be the central tenet of your case, so let's look at this then. When did the state decline to determine liability? What judgement is this?

I'm trying to be open minded here, but it's just occurred to me that this seems to be the crux of the argument, and yet I've never actually seen where this happened.

That's the point, it should have been done before the state agreed to the action by Anglo to seize the Group. It was known by then about the share support so would it not have been a better time to look at things then before allowing Anglo to actually enforce the loans. If for nothing else the cost to the state now if the Quinns win is going to be catastrophic.

That's what you're hanging this on? No legal verdict, no precedent, no break in usual legal custom, just "It was known" and "would it not have been a better time..."

The cost to the State if the Quinns' guarantee is deemed to be illegal is catastrophic, certainly, but I don't see why it would cost any more if it comes in six months time as opposed to six months ago? The cost is the same surely? The only difference now is that if the state wins, the Quinns have made sure that justice won't be done, the state will get a lot less than they should. Basically they want a one way bet (yet again!!) where they get the asset base, win or lose.

I honestly presumed that you had some piece of information here that I was missing - some reason why this case should have been heard before now, but wasn't. Not just "wouldn't it have been better if it was".

Of course it would be ideal if all legal disputes were heard and adjudicated immediately - but that's not practical. They are dealt with as they come up, and the fact is that the first issue was the Quinns were ordered not to dispose of anything, and they did. That is contempt by any definition, and now that Seán Quinn Sr has come out and said that he agreed with the asset transfer, he believes in it and he's given no reason to believe that he's trying to reverse it, I see no reason why he should be walking the streets as a free man either. He's in contempt and the only reason he's at liberty, according to the judge, is to allow him to reverse the asset transfer. He's not doing that, so why leave him out?

Yet again I open my mind, give the Pro-Quinn point of view a chance, and get nothing but speculation back in return.

[Shamrock Shore]

Sean Quinn Snr has no creditabilty in my opinion.

Neither do the two boyos that are/should be in jail.

Jarlath Burns has no right to refer to "the GAA community" if he said as much. Who died and made him President?

I see now Quinn Ins needs 1.6bn. More taxes on me and my family. Wait, is this the Quinn Ins that was to pay back all this money before the nasty Mr Elderfield stepped in......right. Oh wait, did the new Administrators run it into the ground in such a short space of time.

They must have.

[Dougal Maguire]

While is was a rather sweeping statement in fairness if you have people of the ilk of Joe Kernan, Mickey Harte, Sean Boylan, Colm O'Rourke who are prepared to travel to a rally in Cavan to publicly support him, and then have Sean Kelly, a former GAA President publicly praising that support, it would suggest that there is a fair level of support for him among the GAA community

[Saffrongael]

While is was a rather sweeping statement in fairness if you have people of the ilk of Joe Kernan, Mickey Harte, Sean Boylan, Colm O'Rourke who are prepared to travel to a rally in Cavan to publicly support him, and then have Sean Kelly, a former GAA President publicly praising that support, it would suggest that there is a fair level of support for him among the GAA community

They speak only for themselves, fellas like Kernan and Burns are at every dog fight so I wouldn't read too much into their appearance. Who knows, maybe Quinn was calling in favours.

[Tony Baloney]

While is was a rather sweeping statement in fairness if you have people of the ilk of Joe Kernan, Mickey Harte, Sean Boylan, Colm O'Rourke who are prepared to travel to a rally in Cavan to publicly support him, and then have Sean Kelly, a former GAA President publicly praising that support, it would suggest that there is a fair level of support for him among the GAA community

They speak only for themselves, fellas like Kernan and Burns are at every dog fight so I wouldn't read too much into their appearance. Who knows, maybe Quinn was calling in favours.

What is the mileage rate in Quinn's?

[Dougal Maguire]

An even more sweeping statement. What other dog fights have they been at? What favours might Quinn be calling in??

[Tony Baloney]

An even more sweeping statement. What other dog fights have they been at? What favours might Quinn be calling in??

Jarlath's attack dog is off the leash.

[Dougal Maguire]

Not at all. I just like to see people back up what they say with evidence that's all. I seem to remember you making a rather sweeping statement on an earlier thread suggesting that he sent his kids to a grammar school when in fact all his kids go to a secondary school. But never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

I'm nobody's attack dog. I'm a member of the Silverbridge Club and therefore happy to defend our Chairman, or anyone else for that matter, when there is something to defend.

[haranguerer]

The fcukin Quinns should pay their debts and not have the deprived and handicapped and sick people of the 26 Counties suffering because of the arrogance of a shower of cnuts - who apparently can't live on less than around €2k per week.

lol! You bollocks

Shamrock, yep, thats the one. I wouldnt think it would have helped their business stopping them renewing policies, would you?

[Dougal Maguire]

What are the facts in the Sean Quinn case?

By Jim Fitzpatrick
BBC NI economics and business editor

There has been much comment about former billionaire businessman Sean Quinn, who has been embroiled in a legal battle over the debts he owes the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly the Anglo Irish Bank.

At the height of his success, Mr Quinn was the 12th richest man in the UK and the richest in Ireland, employing thousands, mostly in the previously job-starved cross-border area of Fermanagh and Cavan.

In April 2011, control of his business empire passed into the hands of the IBRC.

Later that year Sean Quinn declared himself bankrupt in a Belfast court, making him the biggest bankrupt in UK history.

On 20 July, a Dublin judge found that Mr Quinn, his son, Sean Quinn jnr and a nephew, Peter Darragh Quinn, hid millions in assets from the bank.

Mr Quinn jnr and Peter Darragh Quinn were given three-month jail terms.

Here are some key facts:

Sean Quinn didn't invest in Anglo Irish Bank, he bet on it
If all he'd done was buy shares, his losses would have been limited.

But Sean Quinn chose a dangerous financial instrument called Contracts for Difference (CFDs) to build up a 25% stake in Anglo Irish Bank.

It was a leveraged bet on the share price - if it his bet had come good, he would have made billions, but because it went bad he lost more than five times his initial huge stake.

He literally bet the bank and both bank and Quinn went down. His losses totalled more than 3.2bn euros at the end, with Anglo on the hook for 2.8bn euros.

Anglo didn't encourage Sean Quinn money to build this stake
Anglo Irish Bank was horrified when it discovered the scale of Sean Quinn's stake because they knew they could both go down if the full story was public.

It was a fatal embrace. The reason some directors of Anglo now face criminal charges is because of money lent to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet.

Even Sean Quinn has never publicly suggested that Anglo wanted him to build a 25% stake through CFDs in the bank.

Sean Quinn broke the law before the bank moved in
Sean Quinn was removed from his insurance business by the regulator because he had broken the law.

He had used funds from his insurance business to prop up other parts of the group. It was a serious offence.

The regulator eventually put the entire business into administration because he found the Quinn management were still breaking the rules and there was a massive black hole in the finances. This happened a year before Anglo moved to take control of the rest of the empire.

Sean Quinn now accepts that the actions of the regulator were "right and proper".

Meanwhile all insurance policies in the Republic are now subject to a 2% levy indefinitely to fill the financial hole found in Quinn Insurance.

The family had no viable plan to pay back the money
Once the insurance business was taken from family control, their offer to repay the 2.8 billion euros owed went up in smoke.

The fact that their plan relied upon cash from the insurance arm was not reassuring to a regulator who'd found that they had repeatedly broken the rules not to use money from the regulated business to support the rest of the group.

On 7 March 2011 (one month before Anglo took over the rest of the group) the family's lawyers stated clearly in a letter to Anglo that their offer to repay "was made solely in the context of our clients retaining economic control of Quinn Insurance".

The regulator had already ruled that out, it was not a matter within Anglo's control.

The family did promise to honour loans of 455m euros
In that same letter to Anglo (obtained from Swedish court archives during my investigation for BBC Spotlight) the family's lawyers state: "Your client is aware that 455m euros of loans related to our clients' investments in their international property portfolio (IPP).

"These loans are performing and our clients have met the interest schedules on them, as clearly demonstrated by a review of the attached schedule."

The attached information is headed "Schedule of Valid Property Loans from Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Limited".

Sean Quinn didn't just "frustrate" the bank
The reason Sean Quinn, his son and nephew, are guilty of contempt is because they took actions to interfere with the business and shift assets after Anglo had taken control last April and in breach of specific court injunctions obtained in June.

These actions include Sean Quinn falsifying documents in July (three months after he was ousted) to take control of a Moscow office block worth 180m euros and put it into an offshore company in Belize.

He falsified the documents to make it look like it was done while he was still in charge, but in fact he was a bogus director using fake documents to move very real and valuable assets beyond the reach of the taxpayer-owned bank.

Far from going to court and owning up to this course of action, as Sean Quinn has recently suggested he did, he denied all this in court.

He merely admitted taking steps to frustrate the bank while he was still in charge of the company. The judge didn't believe him.

Sean Quinn isn't defying Anglo alone
He's defying the Irish courts.

It is the courts - not Anglo - that have found him in contempt.

Judge Kelly described the scheme he authorised as one of "mesmeric complexity" that "reeked of dishonesty and sharp practice". It is the courts that have ruled that the debt must be honoured.

The legitimacy of the disputed loans will be determined
There is a case that will be heard over the legitimacy of the disputed 2.3bn euros loans.

But in the meantime the Quinns are legally bound to honour the court rulings.

If, ultimately, the 2.3bn euros is ruled illegal and unenforceable then they will be due compensation.

Supporters say this must be determined first, and it is right to hide assets in the meantime.

They say the actions taken to date are an attempt to bankrupt the Quinn family so they can't fight that other case.

But it is contradictory to ignore current court orders on the basis that you believe a future court decision will go your way. That suggests you only obey the law when it obeys you. It also ignores the undisputed 455m euros of debt the family have always agreed is owed.

Judge Elizabeth Dunne summarised this key argument in her contempt judgement: "Instead of trying to repay the admitted debt due, the Quinn family and in particular the respondents have taken every step possible to make it as difficult as can be to recover any amount due.

"They have engaged in a complex, complicated and, no doubt, costly, series of steps designed to put the assets of the IPG (International Property Group) beyond the reach of Anglo, in a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner.

"They have consciously misled courts here and elsewhere. They have sought to deprive Anglo of the assets which would go some way to discharging an admitted indebtedness.

"The behaviour of the respondents outlined in evidence before me is as far as removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be."

[haranguerer]

Jims been running round trying to doorstep him for a while, I'd say he thinks this could be his big break.

Btw, what was going on with the audit of anglo etc, presumably someones been punished for the bill of health it was getting?

I seem to remember too it being found out that anglo and another irish financial institution regularly transferred massive sums of money between each other to cook the books - has this ever been mentioned in court, or are charges lined up?

[Tony Baloney]

Dougal, ask the Chairman what sees in that article that is worth defending.

[deiseach]

This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf

Thanks for posting that. Ample evidence that Seán Quinn is a bare-faced liar whose assurances are utterly worthless