Quinn Insurance in Administration

[seafoid]

As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I believe the majority should be picked up by Anglo. The fact that this now falls back on to taxpayers is unfortunate, but that decision was made by the government. They can't pick and choose their liabilities with regards to the bank guarantee. Nor should any liability to the taxpayers result in an unlawful decision just to save taxpayers money.

Again this is based around my understanding of the ways things have happened, and obviously on whether the courts agree. And I'll openly admit a lot of my information would come from a pro-Quinn bias.

Anglo have no money. So do you think the taxpayers should pay it or someone else ?

[supersarsfields]

I've answered that already. Do you think the government can pick and choose what they want with regards to the bank guarantee?

[Shamrock Shore]

SuperS

Why bring the courts into it? Shur Quinn & Co are ignoring them so far so why should they heed them whenever a judgement on the legality or otherwise of the loans is handed down.

If Quinn & Co want to use the courts let them purge their contemp and yon fugitive should man up and hand himself into the Gardai in Swanlinbar.

[seafoid]

I've answered that already. Do you think the government can pick and choose what they want with regards to the bank guarantee?

It is too late to moan about the guarantee. The horse has left the stables. Should every poster resident in Ireland have to chip in? Do you think that is fair? 

[Lone Shark]

Lads we can go back and forth all day about whether or not the loans were illegal. The simple fact of the matter is that it should be for a court to decide, and until they do, all speculation is just that.

Equally if moral issues get involved, we could be here all day. Yes the Quinns created jobs, and yes they should feel obliged to pay back the loans, whether illegal or not.

However the simple fact is this - there was a court order, and the Quinns disobeyed it. They are in contempt, and they can waffle all they like about how we're not getting the full story, but the judges of the land are the people they have to tell the story to, and so far they've passed judgement that the assets should be frozen, and that was ignored. From what I can tell, this protest seems to suggest that the Quinns should be allowed to ignore the courts, and to live by their own innate sense of right and wrong.


If an Irish court deems that the loans were illegal, then the situation changes. But the idea that a creditor should stand idly by while assets are being shunted off to a foreign country, presumably never to be got back either by the Quinns or the state, is nonsensical.

[sammymaguire]

Granted; Anglo's customers needed protection because the government were not keeping a close enough eye on what Seanie Fitz and the boys were up to behind closed doors, that bank was in major shit and they went after Quinn's cash to get themselves out of trouble, now the govt are doing it. Is that Sean Quinn's fault? No. Getting involved with a corrupt bank with fudged numbers by getting too greedy and essentially trying to own it, was that Quinn's fault? Yes.

Considering the Irish government was/is on its knees in relation to its finances... was nationalising the bank and bringing the financial burden on the Irish population, well that's another debate altogether but what if the Irish Government were to have agreed to Quinn's proposal of paying the money that they owed in the 7-10 years they had originally promised and leaving things by and large, as they were, he still had QI and the other businesses, would this whole situation as it stands be alot of worse off in this scenario? They would/should have known these loans had to be investigated before flying in with all guns blazing! The Quinn Group were caught like rabbits in the headlights on this and stood there with their hands up in the air!

It was a hatchet job from the start, the Irish Revenue was after Quinn's Empire from the beginning of this whole debacle (there has never been much love lost between Quinn and the Irish State, but he asked them for nothing in way of grants etc, but likewise, had never pumped alot of cash their way in relation to party donations) as it would have filled a very big hole that had been created by the incompetence, negligence, fraud and corruption that was happening at Anglo/Regulator/Irish State at that time. 

It's absolutely shocking treatment of one of Ireland's brightest shining lights in the world of homegrown Enterprise in its entire history. How this man can go from hero to zero in months is unheralded and there should be some hard questions asked. But how do you go about fighting the law in your own land??? Unfortunately, I feel they are on a hiding to nothing, Alan Shatter has already come out and basically laughed the whole thing off, they are up against the rule makers, it's like me or you taking on the Gardai in relation to slapping one after you took a few digs from a couple yourself... you know you just aren't going to win. Regardless of who is right or wrong, that's the position the Quinns are in. 

[Evil Genius]

What Father Darcy had said before going into that, was calling for Action to look into the loans and to whether they were enforceable? He said this should have been the first question when they moved to seize assets and not the last one.
Again it seems to be other people that are using the " He created jobs line" or "he a saint" line now to muddy the water and make out that this is the only reason the Quinns are taking action. What a lot of people are reluctant to admit is that the Quinns now have a legal case against the loans, and the fact that the Irish state and Anglo are doing their best to " Carry on regardless" now is not going to take away from that. There were strong questions asked of Enda Kenny so it will be interesting to see if he bothers to answer them.

Ah, but there's loans and there's loans, Sars.

As Jim Fitzpatrick pointed out on BBC NI, whether the main Anglo loans (€2 Bn?) were legal or not, that is NOT why the Quinn family were found guilty of contempt of Court.

Rather the contempt charges related to a separate €450m(?) of assets, which the Quinns lied, cheated and deceived to keep from the properly appointed Administrator.

So even if the main Anglo loans are deemed to have been illegal, therefore unenforceable, it doesn't get the Quinns off the hook. Nor should they be allowed to use this as a smokescreen for what Justice Dunne revealed as a catalogue of lies and dishonesty by them.

[Evil Genius]

If Quinn & Co want to use the courts, let them purge their contemp and yon fugitive should man up and hand himself into the Gardai in Swanlinbar.

But that's the whole point, SS.

For the Quinns to purge their contempt, they would have to repatriate control of the €450-odd million assets which they have hidden overseas, via a web of disguised holding companies in dodgy tax havens etc.

And from the aggrieved tone of their recent pronouncements, it seems they think themselves entitled to keep the loot, so are unlikely to start co-operating now (at least as long as they can keep wriggling, and Sean Jr doesn't find jail too hard).

But sure, they're good GAA men/Employers/50p-a-hand weekend card players, whose every waking thought was only for the poor people of Ireland blah-di-blah-di-blah

P.S. I see they quoted a letter of support from Michael O'Leary - handwritten, no less. If that doesn't condemn them as a bunch of sharks, then fcuk knows what will...

[supersarsfields]

SuperS

Why bring the courts into it? Shur Quinn & Co are ignoring them so far so why should they heed them whenever a judgement on the legality or otherwise of the loans is handed down.

If Quinn & Co want to use the courts let them purge their contemp and yon fugitive should man up and hand himself into the Gardai in Swanlinbar.

Straw man arguement. Any comments on the illegal loans or the fact the Irish state is happy to uphold that.

[Evil Genius]

Straw man arguement. Any comments on the illegal loans or the fact the Irish state is happy to uphold that.

Any reply to #1481, Sars?

[supersarsfields]

What Father Darcy had said before going into that, was calling for Action to look into the loans and to whether they were enforceable? He said this should have been the first question when they moved to seize assets and not the last one.
Again it seems to be other people that are using the " He created jobs line" or "he a saint" line now to muddy the water and make out that this is the only reason the Quinns are taking action. What a lot of people are reluctant to admit is that the Quinns now have a legal case against the loans, and the fact that the Irish state and Anglo are doing their best to " Carry on regardless" now is not going to take away from that. There were strong questions asked of Enda Kenny so it will be interesting to see if he bothers to answer them.

Ah, but there's loans and there's loans, Sars.

As Jim Fitzpatrick pointed out on BBC NI, whether the main Anglo loans (€2 Bn?) were legal or not, that is NOT why the Quinn family were found guilty of contempt of Court.

Rather the contempt charges related to a separate €450m(?) of assets, which the Quinns lied, cheated and deceived to keep from the properly appointed Administrator.

So even if the main Anglo loans are deemed to have been illegal, therefore unenforceable, it doesn't get the Quinns off the hook. Nor should they be allowed to use this as a smokescreen for what Justice Dunne revealed as a catalogue of lies and dishonesty by them.

Are you joking? You're really not following everything are you. Out of a dept of 2.8B the Quinns contest 2.3B on the basis of loan support. They agree that the other 450 Million is legit. But so far Anglo have taken the Group, all the hotels etc. Valued at well over the 450M that they agree was outstanding. Or can Anglo just continue to take what they want without any restraints?

[supersarsfields]

Straw man arguement. Any comments on the illegal loans or the fact the Irish state is happy to uphold that.

Any reply to #1481, Sars?

In time EG, I'm only through the doors.

[supersarsfields]

If Quinn & Co want to use the courts, let them purge their contemp and yon fugitive should man up and hand himself into the Gardai in Swanlinbar.

But that's the whole point, SS.

For the Quinns to purge their contempt, they would have to repatriate control of the €450-odd million assets which they have hidden overseas, via a web of disguised holding companies in dodgy tax havens etc.

And from the aggrieved tone of their recent pronouncements, it seems they think themselves entitled to keep the loot, so are unlikely to start co-operating now (at least as long as they can keep wriggling, and Sean Jr doesn't find jail too hard).

But sure, they're good GAA men/Employers/50p-a-hand weekend card players, whose every waking thought was only for the poor people of Ireland blah-di-blah-di-blah

P.S. I see they quoted a letter of support from Michael O'Leary - handwritten, no less. If that doesn't condemn them as a bunch of sharks, then fcuk knows what will...

I'm sure there's a point there somewhere but I'm struggling to find it.

[Evil Genius]

If Quinn & Co want to use the courts, let them purge their contemp and yon fugitive should man up and hand himself into the Gardai in Swanlinbar.

But that's the whole point, SS.

For the Quinns to purge their contempt etc etc etc

I'm sure there's a point there somewhere but I'm struggling to find it.

That was my post #1482 (in reply to Shamrock Shore).

I was enquiring after your response to #1481, addressed to you, as follows:

"Ah, but there's loans and there's loans, Sars.

As Jim Fitzpatrick pointed out on BBC NI, whether the main Anglo loans (€2 Bn?) were legal or not, that is NOT why the Quinn family were found guilty of contempt of Court.

Rather the contempt charges related to a separate €450m(?) of assets, which the Quinns lied, cheated and deceived to keep from the properly appointed Administrator.

So even if the main Anglo loans are deemed to have been illegal, therefore unenforceable, it doesn't get the Quinns off the hook. Nor should they be allowed to use this as a smokescreen for what Justice Dunne revealed as a catalogue of lies and dishonesty by them."

[supersarsfields]

Read back up there like a good lad.