Quinn Insurance in Administration

[mick999]

Pretty damming video evidence from Sunday's papers :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167105/FBI-translation-experts--verified-Kiev-footage.html

[orangeman]

Pretty damming video evidence from Sunday's papers :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167105/FBI-translation-experts--verified-Kiev-footage.html

Was this used during the recent court proceedings at all and if not why not ?

[supersarsfields]

Don't think it's submittable in court as it was taken without their consent. But I'd be surprised if everyone involved in the case didn't know about it as the case was being heard as both Anglo and the quinns knew of it.

[orangeman]

Don't think it's submittable in court as it was taken without their consent. But I'd be surprised if everyone involved in the case didn't know about it as the case was being heard as both Anglo and the quinns knew of it.

Worthless then and not evidential.

[supersarsfields]

I think that's the case OM but not 100% sure, someone with more legal experience can prob advise better.

[Lone Shark]

I think that's the case OM but not 100% sure, someone with more legal experience can prob advise better.

Hang on now - you're happy to say that IBRC are not playing fair when it comes to retrieving these assets, yet you write this off as "inadmissable"? Maybe in a legal sense, but this discussion thread is not a court of law, it's a collection of GAA people discussing a topic of national interest.

How do you still support SQ in the light of this? He would happily give control of "his" fortune over to shady Ukrainian characters rather than pay back a loan that he willingly took out, albeit possibly on the strength of bad information?

How can you honestly think that he or his family deserve any more than the basic cost of living afforded to social welfare recipients in the country at best, or possibly jail?


Also, how is my stating that Anglo also employed people an opinion? They clearly did, just as much as the Quinn Group did. It shouldn't give Seanie Fitz a free pass any more than it should give one to SQ.

[supersarsfields]

I think that's the case OM but not 100% sure, someone with more legal experience can prob advise better.

Hang on now - you're happy to say that IBRC are not playing fair when it comes to retrieving these assets, yet you write this off as "inadmissable"? Maybe in a legal sense, but this discussion thread is not a court of law, it's a collection of GAA people discussing a topic of national interest.

How do you still support SQ in the light of this? He would happily give control of "his" fortune over to shady Ukrainian characters rather than pay back a loan that he willingly took out, albeit possibly on the strength of bad information?

How can you honestly think that he or his family deserve any more than the basic cost of living afforded to social welfare recipients in the country at best, or possibly jail?


Also, how is my stating that Anglo also employed people an opinion? They clearly did, just as much as the Quinn Group did. It shouldn't give Seanie Fitz a free pass any more than it should give one to SQ.

Hang on yourself and read what I wrote. I write it of as inadmissable because I believe that it is as it was a secret recording. I don't recall telling anyone that they can't discuss it or make a comment on it so wind your neck in on that. In fact I would expect there to be discussion on it so I don't know why you think I was implying there shouldn't be.
As for still supporting Quinn after this? I do. As I said earlier in this thread I wish the Quinns well in anything they can do that keeps assets out of Anglo's hands. My views haven't changed regarding that.

[armaghniac]

As I said earlier in this thread I wish the Quinns well in anything they can do that keeps assets out of Anglo's hands.

Well I hope it isn't one of your family that is waiting for the ambulance that isn't there because of your mate's refusing to pay back his loans and getting the State to do it.

[supersarsfields]

Feel free to loop back to the start of the thread as to why I have that opinion. I don't intend to run through it again.

[trileacman]

As I said earlier in this thread I wish the Quinns well in anything they can do that keeps assets out of Anglo's hands.

Well I hope it isn't one of your family that is waiting for the ambulance that isn't there because of your mate's refusing to pay back his loans and getting the State to do it.

Quinn and the business he created put alot of ambulances on the road and provided the money for which many people of the Northwest used to buy health insurance and pay for the healthcare that looked after them. If you are going to credit Quinn with the current austerity forced upon the nation then you must also credit him for the boom times that preceded it.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

[Declan]

Quinn built his sense of victimhood on impunity

FINTAN O'TOOLE

Seán Quinn's belief that he could hold the law in blatant contempt was perfectly rational

I LIKED to think I had the journalistic equivalent of gaydar. Having spent the best years of my life listening to powerful men spinning yarns, I imagined I'd developed a kind of lie-dar. But it let me down rather badly with Seán Quinn.

I watched the former multibillionaire on RTÉ's Prime Time on June 3rd, 2010, when his empire was falling apart. His performance was not at all typical of the genre. His language was simple, apparently free of ambiguity, evasion and convolution.

Asked about the €3 billion he owes Irish taxpayers, he said: "We as a family don't want to owe anybody anything. We want to pay the taxpayer back 100 per cent of his money . . . The five kids own the company; and myself, my wife and the five kids, all we want to do is make sure [that for] the taxpayer there's no loss by the Quinn group or the Quinn family. We want to pay all our debts 100 per cent."

Asked what was the security for the debt he was again impressively straightforward: "It's secured on property throughout the world in nine countries and Quinn Direct." He was saying three things without apparent equivocation: that indeed he owed the money to the Irish taxpayer; that he would pay back every cent of it; and that, in part, he would pay it from the sale of foreign property assets.

And I pretty much believed him. Stupid, of course: he now denies owing the bulk of the money, has done everything possible to avoid paying it back and went to every length, including bogus transactions and contempt of court, to put those foreign property assets beyond reach.

And yet, I still suspect that at that moment, in June 2010, Quinn wasn't lying. For one thing, Quinn is not a fool and it would have been utterly foolish to give those commitments so plainly if he did not intend to keep them. Moreover, there is a reason to think Quinn may actually have felt at that moment that he should pay the money back.

He is not like most of the Irish mega-rich, who made their money from opportunism, political connections and cuteness. Quinn's tragedy is that he is a throwback to the heroic age of 19th-century capitalism. He started with relatively little, made real things that people wanted (cement, glass, bricks) and sold them more cheaply than the opposition. He created thousands of real jobs, mostly in places that desperately needed them.

Heroic capitalists of this kind are individualists. Their individualism has unpleasant sides – egoism, obsession, a relentless need to accumulate. But its saving grace is a sense of personal responsibility. One side of "self-made" is "I made my own world"; the other side is "I take responsibility for what I've done". There's a basic pride, an old- fashioned manliness, in not owing anything to anyone – literally as well as figuratively.

So perhaps Seán Quinn really did recognise two years ago that his stupid gambling had left the Irish people with a breathtaking bill. And perhaps he did feel that his manly pride was invested in trying to pay back as much as he could. So why did this sense of honour melt away so quickly and completely? An old friend hoves into view: the allure of victimisation.

Inside every Irish master of the universe there is a whingeing little brat, his face awash with snot and tears, wailing "I didn't do anything, it was Them. . ." When things go wrong the big, bold can-do entrepreneur almost invariably turns into a snivelling wimp, passing the blame on to Them: the banks, the media, the begrudgers, the crowd up in Dublin, the Brits or whichever of the many faces of Them happens to fit the moment.

The manly Seán Quinn turned into a pathetic little boy whining "They made me do it. They took my money." But he had help. Quinn's adoption of victimhood, and thus of moral innocence, was made much easier by two factors.

One was the outpouring of support from his own workers, who reflected back to him his self-image as a deeply-wronged hero. It is perfectly understandable that people initially wanted to support the man who created their jobs. But after it became clear that Quinn had acted just like an old Ascendancy landlord, putting their jobs, their families and their futures on the roulette wheel, they continued to play along with his martyr act.

The other great reinforcer of the victim mentality is, of course, the law. Quinn believed he could literally hold the law in contempt. And this belief was perfectly rational.

He belongs to a class that can cause immense harm to other people with almost complete impunity from criminal prosecution. One class of citizens knows if it ran a "blatant, dishonest and deceitful" operation to divert €4,550, the probability of prison would loom large. Another knows that doing the same thing in relation to €455 million is a matter for civil and civilised litigation. Until society categorises such people as criminals, they will continue to see themselves as innocent victims.

[orangeman]

Secretly filmed video of bankrupt former billionaire Sean Quinn's son and nephew has been admitted into evidence at the High Court in Dublin.


Sean Quinn Jnr and Peter Darragh Quinn are shown in the footage apparently making an illegal deal with Russian businessmen over a shopping centre owned by Irish state bank IBRC.

The bank used the video to support a motion to appoint receivers to a wide range of Quinn family members' assets, extending this beyond the original three involved in the contempt case.

The court accepted the motion, and a full hearing is due to take place on 24 July.

It means that a receiver could take charge of the family's assets to prevent further interference with property and assets that should belong to the bank.

The court also dismissed an application by Sean Quinn Snr to represent himself in an ongoing case between the family and the bank over the validity and enforceability of loans.

Last week, the three men were found to be in contempt of court.

A High Court judge ordered them to reverse the movement of assets out of the reach of IBRC, formerly the Anglo Irish Bank.

A judge will look again on 20 July at their co-operation with the bank.

At a hearing on Friday, Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne made it clear that the men could still face jail if they do not obey a range of court orders.

[An Gaeilgoir]

As I said earlier in this thread I wish the Quinns well in anything they can do that keeps assets out of Anglo's hands.

Well I hope it isn't one of your family that is waiting for the ambulance that isn't there because of your mate's refusing to pay back his loans and getting the State to do it.

Quinn and the business he created put alot of ambulances on the road and provided the money for which many people of the Northwest used to buy health insurance and pay for the healthcare that looked after them. If you are going to credit Quinn with the current austerity forced upon the nation then you must also credit him for the boom times that preceded it.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

None so blind as those who will not see.

[bcarrier]

Quinn built his sense of victimhood on impunity

FINTAN O'TOOLE

Seán Quinn's belief that he could hold the law in blatant contempt was perfectly rational

I LIKED to think I had the journalistic equivalent of gaydar. Having spent the best years of my life listening to powerful men spinning yarns, I imagined I'd developed a kind of lie-dar. But it let me down rather badly with Seán Quinn.

I watched the former multibillionaire on RTÉ's Prime Time on June 3rd, 2010, when his empire was falling apart. His performance was not at all typical of the genre. His language was simple, apparently free of ambiguity, evasion and convolution.

Asked about the €3 billion he owes Irish taxpayers, he said: "We as a family don't want to owe anybody anything. We want to pay the taxpayer back 100 per cent of his money . . . The five kids own the company; and myself, my wife and the five kids, all we want to do is make sure [that for] the taxpayer there's no loss by the Quinn group or the Quinn family. We want to pay all our debts 100 per cent."

Asked what was the security for the debt he was again impressively straightforward: "It's secured on property throughout the world in nine countries and Quinn Direct." He was saying three things without apparent equivocation: that indeed he owed the money to the Irish taxpayer; that he would pay back every cent of it; and that, in part, he would pay it from the sale of foreign property assets.

And I pretty much believed him. Stupid, of course: he now denies owing the bulk of the money, has done everything possible to avoid paying it back and went to every length, including bogus transactions and contempt of court, to put those foreign property assets beyond reach.

And yet, I still suspect that at that moment, in June 2010, Quinn wasn't lying. For one thing, Quinn is not a fool and it would have been utterly foolish to give those commitments so plainly if he did not intend to keep them. Moreover, there is a reason to think Quinn may actually have felt at that moment that he should pay the money back.

He is not like most of the Irish mega-rich, who made their money from opportunism, political connections and cuteness. Quinn's tragedy is that he is a throwback to the heroic age of 19th-century capitalism. He started with relatively little, made real things that people wanted (cement, glass, bricks) and sold them more cheaply than the opposition. He created thousands of real jobs, mostly in places that desperately needed them.

Heroic capitalists of this kind are individualists. Their individualism has unpleasant sides – egoism, obsession, a relentless need to accumulate. But its saving grace is a sense of personal responsibility. One side of "self-made" is "I made my own world"; the other side is "I take responsibility for what I've done". There's a basic pride, an old- fashioned manliness, in not owing anything to anyone – literally as well as figuratively.

So perhaps Seán Quinn really did recognise two years ago that his stupid gambling had left the Irish people with a breathtaking bill. And perhaps he did feel that his manly pride was invested in trying to pay back as much as he could. So why did this sense of honour melt away so quickly and completely? An old friend hoves into view: the allure of victimisation.

Inside every Irish master of the universe there is a whingeing little brat, his face awash with snot and tears, wailing "I didn't do anything, it was Them. . ." When things go wrong the big, bold can-do entrepreneur almost invariably turns into a snivelling wimp, passing the blame on to Them: the banks, the media, the begrudgers, the crowd up in Dublin, the Brits or whichever of the many faces of Them happens to fit the moment.

The manly Seán Quinn turned into a pathetic little boy whining "They made me do it. They took my money." But he had help. Quinn's adoption of victimhood, and thus of moral innocence, was made much easier by two factors.

One was the outpouring of support from his own workers, who reflected back to him his self-image as a deeply-wronged hero. It is perfectly understandable that people initially wanted to support the man who created their jobs. But after it became clear that Quinn had acted just like an old Ascendancy landlord, putting their jobs, their families and their futures on the roulette wheel, they continued to play along with his martyr act.

The other great reinforcer of the victim mentality is, of course, the law. Quinn believed he could literally hold the law in contempt. And this belief was perfectly rational.

He belongs to a class that can cause immense harm to other people with almost complete impunity from criminal prosecution. One class of citizens knows if it ran a "blatant, dishonest and deceitful" operation to divert €4,550, the probability of prison would loom large. Another knows that doing the same thing in relation to €455 million is a matter for civil and civilised litigation. Until society categorises such people as criminals, they will continue to see themselves as innocent victims.

+1

[orangeman]

I know this is not about Quinns but this is the sort of shit that was going on with the banks at that time.

Belfast developer wins court action against bank

Mr Walsh has built up a portfolio which includes properties on Kensington High Street A Belfast property investor has obtained a High Court injunction preventing the Bank of Scotland from taking legal action against him or his companies.

Chris Walsh claimed that the bank effectively ordered him to sell his multi-million pound portfolio and repay all his loans within the next 18 months.

He said such a rapid sale would not raise enough to cover the loans and would likely lead to his personal bankruptcy.

He claimed that the bank had given him assurances that loans made in 2006 and 2007 could be repaid over an extended period of as much as 20 years.

The bank disputed that these assurances had been given and said that while it wanted the properties sold and loans repaid, it had not specified an 18-month time frame.

Mr Justice Weathrup granted the injunction saying that there was "a serious issue" to be tried and that without the injunction there would be "a winding up of the companies and the bankruptcy of Mr Walsh".

Mr Walsh told the court he was still servicing his loans, paying annual interest of £2.6m and capital repayments of £1.96m

Portfolio

Mr Walsh has built up a property portfolio over the last 10 years which, at its peak, was valued at more than £100m.

The portfolio includes: the Arndale Shopping Centre in Leeds, Direct Line House in Leeds, the Nags Head shopping centre in Islington, properties on Kensington High Street, the Riverside Walk shopping centre in Thetford and the Balmoral Plaza in south Belfast.

Mr Walsh was financed by Bank of Scotland Ireland (BoSI); it was a Bank of Scotland subsidiary which specialised in property lending.

BoSI ran up enormous losses in the property crash and is now being shut down by its ultimate owners, Lloyds Banking Group.

In an affidavit, Mr Walsh explained that his loans were on a 20-year basis until 2006.

At that point, he borrowed £6.2m on a three-year term to buy the Riverside Walk centre.

However, he said BoSI's then Regional Director, Stephen McDonald, had assured him the bank would ultimately grant a longer term loan.

Mr Walsh said the following year Mr McDonald told him that he was "under considerable pressure to lend more money" due to increased targets imposed by the bank's management.

The banker then showed him details of Direct Line House in Leeds and proposed that he should buy it.

Mr Walsh agreed and borrowed a total of £39m, mostly via his companies but with personal borrowings of £5.5m.

The loans were for an initial three years but Mr Walsh said he only agreed to borrow having been assured that the loan could be converted into a longer term facility.

Again, the bank disputed that such assurances had been given.

However, Mr Walsh's solicitor said that Mr McDonald had told her that he had given the assurances. Mr McDonald left the bank in May 2010.

Mr Justice Weatherup said that bank documents also "tend to support the representations that the three-year term was not a final fixed term and that further arrangements would be made in relation to an extended loan period if there was no sale at the end of the period".

The case is due in court again in September, with a full hearing in January next year.