Quinn Insurance in Administration

[mick999]

( Lets not forget they took over a group profitting £100 odd million a year as well as an insurance company that will make profit in the future)

I had to laugh at this one ...

Every insurance policy taken out is now hit with a 2% levy to pay for Quinn Inurance losses, which was neccessary in order to sell the company to Liberty Mutual. so the state will not benefit in any way from  the loss making Quinn Insurance :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082701.html

[supersarsfields]

( Lets not forget they took over a group profitting £100 odd million a year as well as an insurance company that will make profit in the future)

I had to laugh at this one ...

Every insurance policy taken out is now hit with a 2% levy to pay for Quinn Inurance losses, which was neccessary in order to sell the company to Liberty Mutual. so the state will not benefit in any way from  the loss making Quinn Insurance :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082701.html

Don't believe everything you read on the Insurance sale. There's a lot more to come out regarding that.

Start by asking yourself why when Concerned Irish businesses raised a document outlining why no such levy was required and how it was a stealth tax on the irish people and when this was brought to court the Judge ruled that it would not allow it to be recieved as it may "disrupt the sale" of QIL. Considering the document was regarding why the sale should not have been made under the terms they were (Nothing about returning it to SQ by the way) it's kind of a strange decision.

Some people will swallow everything that anglo put out in the papers. Others will have the sense to look a little deeper.

[Rossfan]

So it's all lies being spun by Anglo/ IBRC and Quinn is really as pure as  the driven snow.

Thanks for clearing that up. 

[mick999]

( Lets not forget they took over a group profitting £100 odd million a year as well as an insurance company that will make profit in the future)

I had to laugh at this one ...

Every insurance policy taken out is now hit with a 2% levy to pay for Quinn Inurance losses, which was neccessary in order to sell the company to Liberty Mutual. so the state will not benefit in any way from  the loss making Quinn Insurance :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082701.html

Don't believe everything you read on the Insurance sale. There's a lot more to come out regarding that.

Start by asking yourself why when Concerned Irish businesses raised a document outlining why no such levy was required and how it was a stealth tax on the irish people and when this was brought to court the Judge ruled that it would not allow it to be recieved as it may "disrupt the sale" of QIL. Considering the document was regarding why the sale should not have been made under the terms they were (Nothing about returning it to SQ by the way) it's kind of a strange decision.

Some people will swallow everything that anglo put out in the papers. Others will have the sense to look a little deeper.

I presume the administrators are lying as well when they said the losses were €706m in 2009 and €160m in 2010

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1022178.shtml

Sure it was making loads of money ...

It that you Sean ??

[haranguerer]

It was forced to stop writing new business in the UK, amongst other restrictions, as well as been given tons of the worst publicity possible and been put into adminsitration. See how any business handles that type of 'regulation'!!

The clowns who took it over made those losses - if you put any company into administration there will be asset write-downs to a massive degree, as your article states, this is key to the loss of €700m that it reports.

It was making €20m a month profit before it was put into administration. The process to get it bnack on track was handled in the worst way possible, thats who you have to blame for your 2% levy

[mick999]

It was making €20m a month profit before it was put into administration.

This article from the Irish times answers that point better than  I could :

Quinn should have no role in insurance group rescue

BUSINESS OPINION: Seán Quinn is architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises his insurance adventure is over the better, writes JOHN McMANUS

WATCHING SEÁN Quinn on the television news last Thursday, it seemed pretty obvious that someone needs to take him aside and explain a few things. The extent to which Quinn seems deluded is positively frightening. It is clear that he fundamentally does not understand the prudential bargain at the heart of the insurance business.

On the news and in several subsequent interviews, he has gone on at length about the profitability of Quinn Insurance, which he tells us makes profits of €20 million a month, and which in theory will allow him repay the Quinn Group's €4 billion of debt.

The first point to make here is that Quinn Insurance does not meet the solvency requirements set by the regulator and has a history of not doing so. The Government allows companies sell insurance provided they obey certain rules, the most fundamental of which is the requirement to have enough assets to meet your liabilities. One of the ways you do this is set aside some of your profits.

Anyone in insurance will tell you that it's much easier to make profits if you don't meet your solvency targets. The trouble is that if you are not meeting your solvency targets you are not running an insurance company, you are running something else. And it's something that might not have the wherewithal to meet its commitments.

That in turn is not something that the Government can let you do if it's serious about protecting its citizens. In fact its something they should take off you before people get hurt, including the employees.

The only amazing thing about Quinn Insurance – and sadly it's not that amazing in the Irish context – is that the company was not seized years ago. Mr Quinn's decision to use the reserves of the insurance company to finance his disastrous foray into Anglo Irish Bank shares should have been sufficient grounds to seize the company in 2008, demonstrating as it did his blindness to the prudential fundamentals of insurance.

Over and above that, the whole – and as yet unexplained – thinking behind taking a secret 28 per cent stake in the country's third-largest bank should, as a minimum, have shown an approach to investment at odds with running an insurance business. Never mind what it said about an attitude to corporate governance.

The anger expressed by Quinn Insurance staff is entirely misplaced. The person they should be asking questions of is the man whose massive investment gambles pushed the company into the arms of the administrator.

The second point on which Mr Quinn needs to be wised up on is that his folksy code of "if I make a mistake I will fix it" does not actually cut when you have helped wreck a bank that will end up costing €20 billion to put down, never mind save.

When the consequences of that include putting in jeopardy an insurance company that one million people count on and that 2,400 work for, "I made a mistake, I will fix it" just sounds like the recipe for mashing up what is left of the business.

The third thing that Seán Quinn needs to grasp is that the fact that he lost €3 billion on shares – most of which went on a disastrous investment in Anglo Irish Bank shares – makes him even less qualified to be let near an insurance company. But, by his tortured logic, the scale of his losses should engender some sort of empathy and lead to us giving him a further chance. It's crackers.

Seán Quinn is the architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises the game is up as far as his adventure in the insurance industry the better. The real issue is how to save Quinn Insurance, because if it goes down the unintended collateral damage will be huge. Not only are jobs at risk, there is the nightmarish scenario of what happens to the health insurance market if Quinn Insurance flounders. Private health insurance is one of the creaky pillars on which the health service is built. Withdraw cover from 400,000 people and the whole thing falls over.

The preferred solution is to find a buyer for Quinn Insurance as quickly as possible and before the whole thing unravels as its bankers and customers take flight. An international buyer would be preferable because it would shift the risk on to their balance sheet and away from the State.

The other alternative is for the State to take it on to its already rather stretched balance sheet via Anglo Irish Bank, which is owed €2.8 billion by the Quinn family and has a charge over the family's assets. But Anglo is in deep enough trouble as things stand without also turning it into a lifeboat for Quinn Insurance

At this stage it's unclear which way things will go, but one thing is obvious: there should be no role for Seán Quinn in what happens.

[Tubberman]

It was making €20m a month profit before it was put into administration.

This article from the Irish times answers that point better than  I could :

Quinn should have no role in insurance group rescue

BUSINESS OPINION: Seán Quinn is architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises his insurance adventure is over the better, writes JOHN McMANUS

WATCHING SEÁN Quinn on the television news last Thursday, it seemed pretty obvious that someone needs to take him aside and explain a few things. The extent to which Quinn seems deluded is positively frightening. It is clear that he fundamentally does not understand the prudential bargain at the heart of the insurance business.

On the news and in several subsequent interviews, he has gone on at length about the profitability of Quinn Insurance, which he tells us makes profits of €20 million a month, and which in theory will allow him repay the Quinn Group's €4 billion of debt.

The first point to make here is that Quinn Insurance does not meet the solvency requirements set by the regulator and has a history of not doing so. The Government allows companies sell insurance provided they obey certain rules, the most fundamental of which is the requirement to have enough assets to meet your liabilities. One of the ways you do this is set aside some of your profits.

Anyone in insurance will tell you that it's much easier to make profits if you don't meet your solvency targets. The trouble is that if you are not meeting your solvency targets you are not running an insurance company, you are running something else. And it's something that might not have the wherewithal to meet its commitments.

That in turn is not something that the Government can let you do if it's serious about protecting its citizens. In fact its something they should take off you before people get hurt, including the employees.

The only amazing thing about Quinn Insurance – and sadly it's not that amazing in the Irish context – is that the company was not seized years ago. Mr Quinn's decision to use the reserves of the insurance company to finance his disastrous foray into Anglo Irish Bank shares should have been sufficient grounds to seize the company in 2008, demonstrating as it did his blindness to the prudential fundamentals of insurance.

Over and above that, the whole – and as yet unexplained – thinking behind taking a secret 28 per cent stake in the country's third-largest bank should, as a minimum, have shown an approach to investment at odds with running an insurance business. Never mind what it said about an attitude to corporate governance.

The anger expressed by Quinn Insurance staff is entirely misplaced. The person they should be asking questions of is the man whose massive investment gambles pushed the company into the arms of the administrator.

The second point on which Mr Quinn needs to be wised up on is that his folksy code of "if I make a mistake I will fix it" does not actually cut when you have helped wreck a bank that will end up costing €20 billion to put down, never mind save.

When the consequences of that include putting in jeopardy an insurance company that one million people count on and that 2,400 work for, "I made a mistake, I will fix it" just sounds like the recipe for mashing up what is left of the business.

The third thing that Seán Quinn needs to grasp is that the fact that he lost €3 billion on shares – most of which went on a disastrous investment in Anglo Irish Bank shares – makes him even less qualified to be let near an insurance company. But, by his tortured logic, the scale of his losses should engender some sort of empathy and lead to us giving him a further chance. It's crackers.

Seán Quinn is the architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises the game is up as far as his adventure in the insurance industry the better. The real issue is how to save Quinn Insurance, because if it goes down the unintended collateral damage will be huge. Not only are jobs at risk, there is the nightmarish scenario of what happens to the health insurance market if Quinn Insurance flounders. Private health insurance is one of the creaky pillars on which the health service is built. Withdraw cover from 400,000 people and the whole thing falls over.

The preferred solution is to find a buyer for Quinn Insurance as quickly as possible and before the whole thing unravels as its bankers and customers take flight. An international buyer would be preferable because it would shift the risk on to their balance sheet and away from the State.

The other alternative is for the State to take it on to its already rather stretched balance sheet via Anglo Irish Bank, which is owed €2.8 billion by the Quinn family and has a charge over the family's assets. But Anglo is in deep enough trouble as things stand without also turning it into a lifeboat for Quinn Insurance

At this stage it's unclear which way things will go, but one thing is obvious: there should be no role for Seán Quinn in what happens.

Look, can ye not understand!? The laws and regulations shouldn't apply to SQ in the same way as they apply to everyone else. He's a different case - he's an entrepreneur who employed large numbers of people and is from the border area, so he's allowed to ignore or bend the rules and regulations as he sees fit.

[deiseach]

Look, can ye not understand!? The laws and regulations shouldn't apply to SQ in the same way as they apply to everyone else. He's a different case - he's an entrepreneur who employed large numbers of people, is from the border area and is a lifelong member of the GAA, so he's allowed to ignore or bend the rules and regulations as he sees fit.

Fixed that for you

[supersarsfields]

( Lets not forget they took over a group profitting £100 odd million a year as well as an insurance company that will make profit in the future)

I had to laugh at this one ...

Every insurance policy taken out is now hit with a 2% levy to pay for Quinn Insurance losses, which was necessary in order to sell the company to Liberty Mutual. So the state will not benefit in any way from  the loss making Quinn Insurance :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082701.html

Don't believe everything you read on the Insurance sale. There's a lot more to come out regarding that.

Start by asking yourself why when Concerned Irish businesses raised a document outlining why no such levy was required and how it was a stealth tax on the Irish people and when this was brought to court the Judge ruled that it would not allow it to be received as it may "disrupt the sale" of QIL. Considering the document was regarding why the sale should not have been made under the terms they were (Nothing about returning it to SQ by the way) it's kind of a strange decision.

Some people will swallow everything that anglo put out in the papers. Others will have the sense to look a little deeper.

I presume the administrators are lying as well when they said the losses were €706m in 2009 and €160m in 2010

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1022178.shtml

Sure it was making loads of money ...

It that you Sean ??

As I said don't believe everything you read. The administrators were far from being independent as they should have been.
there was the details of the taped conversation were "allegedly" (does that cover me) one stated during voluntary administration that Sean Quinn would not be allowed back in the company in any shape or form despite the administrators having no opinion on or interest in where the company would end up.. Que the injunction by the administrators to prevent this coming out to the public (Though I do believe it did slip out in a couple of articles).

With regards the losses the majority of these were in regards to writing down of losses. And then there was the issue of overstating the liabilities of existing claims.

So as I said don't believe everything that is fed out from the state or Anglo. Try and use your head why you think SQ wanted the Insurance company back so badly if it was loss making? Some people are unable to use some logic to see past even the most obvious of Bull shit. Sean Quinn might have done alot wrong. And fecked up a lot of things. But be under no illusion the Irish people were raped over the sale of QIL by the state and Liberty.

[supersarsfields]

Look, can ye not understand!? The laws and regulations shouldn't apply to SQ in the same way as they apply to everyone else. He's a different case - he's an entrepreneur who employed large numbers of people, is from the border area and is a lifelong member of the GAA, so he's allowed to ignore or bend the rules and regulations as he sees fit.

Fixed that for you

Good Point, well made.

[Mayo4Sam]

SS, is there a difference between not believing everything you read and believing none of it?

IMO for every over the top accusation thrown at SQ there's someone like yourself to say "ah don't be heeding any of that stuff about poor oul Sean"

My main issue will always be that he has the opportunity to cover some of his debts and he isn't, he's walking away to a life of relative comfort and feathering his family's nest while we pay for it.
No matter how bad anyone else is, or how much he has been wronged that is unforgivable in my book.

But as I said previously he's bound to be 100% forgiven above in Enniskillin and Derrylin, he has done nothing but good for those people, is clowns down here are a different story and it can be justified by saying sure its only a drop in the ocean of what we owe everyone else........thanks

[supersarsfields]

There is indeed Mayo. And I accept that I post pro Quinn sentiments and I have my reasons for that. But then there are others here that will believe every little thing that is put out by the state/ Anglo without question. Even when logic would tell you otherwise because it's easier to ignore it and Anglo/ the state have went to town on identifying SQ as the figurehead of the downfall of the Irish economy.

Unfortunately SQ doesn't have the ability to cover his depts. He never had any assets to cover them. The assets are in the children's names and have been for years. He should never have been loaned 2.8 billion and he should never have asked or taken the loan on.  But this was the move that destroyed everything he worked for and turned the people of Ireland against him. For some it's negated everything he did before, which is fair enough, for others it hasn't.

The asset moving at the minute is protecting the kids assets which they are contesting Anglo's right to.

[Mayo4Sam]

I wouldn't accept that there are no assets, nor do I know enough about law to talk about what rights the creditors of the Quinn group have to assets transferred to children etc, I'd hope they have 100% rights to it, not just in the SQ case.
I'll leave it at that

[HiMucker]

I wouldn't accept that there are no assets, nor do I know enough about law to talk about what rights the creditors of the Quinn group have to assets transferred to children etc, I'd hope they have 100% rights to it, not just in the SQ case.
I'll leave it at that

Would you think they have right to assets transferred to their name 5 years ago or 10 years ago? What time limit would you set? Or would you just contest assets transferred after the shit hi the fan?

[Mayo4Sam]

Like I say I don't know what the law is so I couldn't comment on it. It's a hard thing to have a rule for, in some cases people can strip a company of assets causing its downfall, what's right there? In others it goes tits up and then they start stripping it. I don't know the details of asset management for the Quinn group so I wouldnt even attempt to comment on that specific case.

It does gall me to see people like Seanie Fitz transferring deeds to the wife and continuing to live in luxury, as was the case, while supposedly bankrupt