Quinn Insurance in Administration

[Lone Shark]

I expect loneshark if your business was in bother you would still keep all your assets in your name, including the family home, just in case the banks needed to sell them to get back what you owed. I think you would be wise to stop calling Quinn a thief and looter too.

With all due respect, which is none whatsoever, f**k you. You don't know the first thing about me and if you did, you'd realise that I have paid my way on several occasions when I could have avoided it. I've lost bets for large sums, none of which were legally enforceable. I've paid up every one of them, including three grand to a company that didn't play fair with me and cancelled a bet I had with them when I caught them out. I still paid them when it was the other way around, because my name and my honour was at stake.

I've taken business ventures before, some of which have worked and some haven't. I've always only used money that I could afford to lose and I've always taken responsibility for my debts. I've acted conservatively when others would have gone further, but that's been my choice. I wouldn't risk assets I didn't want to lose like a family home - least of all on a bet. Which is exactly what happened here.

If you want to talk about me, feel free. Unlike a lot of people on this board, yourself included, my real life identity is well known and if Sean Quinn wants to come after me, he's welcome to do so. But don't make presumptions when you don't know the first thing about me.

[supersarsfields]

No harm Lone Shark if you don't challange someone when they are screwing you, it isn't honourable, it's stupid. If you want to pay your way regardless of what anyone does to you then that's fine. Personally I wouldn't want to be such a walk over. 

[sammymaguire]

Seán Quinn is a thief and a dishonourable man - a Looter.

Lone Shark, you have lost it on this fella. Good luck to you and your argument. As for honour in business, in Ireland, who are you kidding there? You are full of shit.

[seafoid]

It is strange we never hear anything from the trade unions who represent the workers in the Quinn group.

[supersarsfields]

They had employee committees. And they were in the papers often enough when Administration was going on.

[whiskeysteve]

4 or so pages on and I still havent seen one pragmatic reason why it would be a better deal for Ireland to have Sean Quinn declare bankruptcy in the south and shovel the rest of his remaining money into Anglo.

SQ got greedy, fucked up and lost his businesses, a reasonable punishment for him in itself.

Now, neither he nor his group took the decision to foist his losses on the taxpayer. That decision was taken for him by others.

Nevertheless, should the taxpayer stand to get 100 cent on every last remaining euro he made that is left with himself or his children, then fine, turn it all over to the taxpayer.

But the taxpayer would more likely see something like 0 cents on the euro should SQ play ball with Anglo/The Troika.

Lone Shark I think you told me a few pages back that it would still count as we have set out to fill this black hole of our debts eventually.

Well I don't believe for 1 second that our debts will ever be wholly paid - There will be major debt forgiveness long before that distant day simply because at some point before then a whole slew of market realities, political realities and point blank mathematical realities in Europe and across the Western world are going to kick in and force a major debt forgiveness justice across the board.

I think that the Quinn family piling the rest of their cash into a field and burning it would be a better return for the taxpayer than shovelling it into Anglo. At least we would get the heat off of it, and more importantly it would be removed from contributing to prolonging the huge injustice of servicing the external losses of bondholders.

So for that reason I would rather see the money kept in the hands of people who have decades of a track record and ability in creating enterprise in Ireland. Even if creating jobs is just a side effect of SQ's personal greed and ambition.

[seafoid]

4 or so pages on and I still havent seen one pragmatic reason why it would be a better deal for Ireland to have Sean Quinn declare bankruptcy in the south and shovel the rest of his remaining money into Anglo.

SQ got greedy, fucked up and lost his businesses, a reasonable punishment for him in itself.

Now, neither he nor his group took the decision to foist his losses on the taxpayer. That decision was taken for him by others.

Nevertheless, should the taxpayer stand to get 100 cent on every last remaining euro he made that is left with himself or his children, then fine, turn it all over to the taxpayer.

But the taxpayer would more likely see something like 0 cents on the euro should SQ play ball with Anglo/The Troika.

Lone Shark I think you told me a few pages back that it would still count as we have set out to fill this black hole of our debts eventually.

Well I don't believe for 1 second that our debts will ever be wholly paid - There will be major debt forgiveness long before that distant day simply because at some point before then a whole slew of market realities, political realities and point blank mathematical realities in Europe and across the Western world are going to kick in and force a major debt forgiveness justice across the board.

I think that the Quinn family piling the rest of their cash into a field and burning it would be a better return for the taxpayer than shovelling it into Anglo. At least we would get the heat off of it, and more importantly it would be removed from contributing to prolonging the huge injustice of servicing the external losses of bondholders.

So for that reason I would rather see the money kept in the hands of people who have decades of a track record and ability in creating enterprise in Ireland. Even if creating jobs is just a side effect of SQ's personal greed and ambition.

I think that is the optimistic view. It could be a lot worse. Ireland could be kicked out of the Euro.
Why should Ireland have a higher standard of living than Slovakia ? That is what creditors may want to know.

[whiskeysteve]

These are more major issues for Ireland, Seafoid. Anything we've heard or read in the past 6 months would point to the Eurozone having to fracture in some way however. Default is not a question of choice for Ireland, it's inevitable IMO. We are locked out of the markets, have no growth and though the tap is running from the troika at the minute will it continue to do so as Italy, Spain and others get locked out of the bond markets themselves? They can print but how much and how bad will the inflation be? Also, if you listened to people like Constantin Gurdgiev you would believe that some of the biggest banks in the Eurozone have leveraged themselves 50 to 1 or more and that a fall in 'assets' of a few % will render/has rendered them insolvent. So whats the point of taxpayers funding the losses of institutions that are going to collapse anyway?

But these are wider questions.

In the meantime I just see a lot of people shouting for the wealth of a rich Irish family to be transferred to even richer bankers on the continent.

Going by the reaction I seen on politics.ie a lot of Irish people would cheer that as a result. A good deal for Anglo is now a good deal for the taxpayer. Crazy.

Stockholm Syndrome on a massive scale.

[armaghniac]

I think that the Quinn family piling the rest of their cash into a field and burning it would be a better return for the taxpayer than shovelling it into Anglo. At least we would get the heat off of it, and more importantly it would be removed from contributing to prolonging the huge injustice of servicing the external losses of bondholders.

I have never heard such nonsense. You may or may not agree with the strategy of paying off bondholders, but it is something that should not be assessed only in itself but in the context in which it is taking place. But if Anglo does not recover its loans from those it lent money to, or as much as possible of these loans, then the taxpayer will have to put more capital in and that money will come from hospitals, schools and the like. This might be an injustice, Quinn paying back the money he borrowed to gamble on shares is not an injustice.

[Lone Shark]

No harm Lone Shark if you don't challange someone when they are screwing you, it isn't honourable, it's stupid. If you want to pay your way regardless of what anyone does to you then that's fine. Personally I wouldn't want to be such a walk over.

I work in the gambling and journalism sectors. In both cases you're only as good as your word and if you are seen to twist the truth or weasel out of your commitments, you won't get very far. I'm happy with the way I do things, and it's up to you to live by your code. I'm delighted to say that the company that fecked me over has since fell into difficulty. Gotta love karma.

I only introduced this because you chose to make it personal, saying that I would do the same as Quinn has done. I just wanted to point out that I wouldn't, and haven't.

The issue here is not the politicians, or the developers, or even me. It's what SQ did. Any more straw men?

[seafoid]

Fitzpatrick is a real D4 style sleazebag but he is interesting on SQ

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0110/1224287157384.html

On September 11th, 2007, FitzPatrick and the then Anglo chief executive David Drumm met Seán Quinn and his associate Liam McCaffrey in the Ardboyne Hotel in Navan, Co Meath, so Quinn could tell them about his huge clandestine investment in the bank via "contracts for difference" (CFDs).
"David was more up to speed clearly about the activities of CFDs. He was bringing me because he always felt that Quinn regarded me as a superhuman, as a superhero. He wanted Quinn to see how disappointed I would be."

When FitzPatrick learned the size of the Quinn holding "I was physically shocked. I wasn't expecting that. I said: What! David said afterwards to me that he looked at [Quinn] and that he saw the surprise in Quinn's eyes at my reaction."
Fitzpatrick thought Quinn was a "real 1960s Irishman. He was one of those hail fellow well met, ah sure I will go down there and play the old cards, five or six lads for 10 bob, or whatever it was. He was always producing all that and would be nearly blessing himself. Everything will be all right. He was very human but, I didn't easily like him."

The ongoing fall in the Anglo share price was threatening the Quinn business empire and the bank. At one stage Quinn and FitzPatrick were alone in the room.
"He was very close to tears. He could see what was happening."


Quinn is a bit like a clan chieftain who bet all the Maguire and O'Reilly land on a ship excursion to America. 
It is understandable that the OReilly and Maguire clansmen are annoyed that their chieftain is dissed. But he bet all the land. 

[supersarsfields]

No harm Lone Shark if you don't challange someone when they are screwing you, it isn't honourable, it's stupid. If you want to pay your way regardless of what anyone does to you then that's fine. Personally I wouldn't want to be such a walk over.

I work in the gambling and journalism sectors. In both cases you're only as good as your word and if you are seen to twist the truth or weasel out of your commitments, you won't get very far. I'm happy with the way I do things, and it's up to you to live by your code. I'm delighted to say that the company that fecked me over has since fell into difficulty. Gotta love karma.

I only introduced this because you chose to make it personal, saying that I would do the same as Quinn has done. I just wanted to point out that I wouldn't, and haven't.

The issue here is not the politicians, or the developers, or even me. It's what SQ did. Any more straw men?

Who are you to decide the issues here? For me the issues are the illegal actions of Anglo. We dont have to dance to your tune. Just because you want to take that approach ( course we have no proof of that either but I suppose we'll have to take your word on it) in business doesn't mean anyone else should follow. I'd respect someone to stand up for their rights than rolling over and playing dead. 
As for making it personal, cry me a river. If you come out with terms like thief and looter then you'll leave yourself open to personal comments. Much the same as the straw man comment.

 

[An Gaeilgoir]

Lads,

As someone who does not really care about Quinn (except our future liabilities as tax payers). I have heard two stories recently about, " the great man". ( both from the horses mouth)

This just follows on from the previous posts between loanshark and others.

The first happened several weeks before the difficulties in Quinn were known. Sean Quinn approached a relative of mine in the UK, regarding his insurance needs. My relative knows Sean for over 30 years and would have regarded him as more a friend that a business aquitance. Sean offered to lower my realtive's insurance bill by over 30% if he signed up with in the week and for cash. The policy would come in to effect when the current policy expired several months later. The only catch being cash up front now (we are talking several million quid including the discount). Uncle declined and a month later Quinn was in bother. ( Not this had any bearing on the issue).

The second story was Sean approached another Irish developer who does not carry out any work in Ireland, but is huge in the uk and Europe. Again the same as the first story, Quinn is well known by this individual. Long story short, simialr to the first one, the sum involved was well in excess of 10 million. This man had paid close to 8 million when the Quinn walls started to crumble. He luckily managed to get, the money paid to Quinn back from Anglo  (believe it or not).

Both of these men knew Sean Quinn for 30 years plus and when push came to shove, he was willing to relive them of millions to prop up his failed gamble.

As has been said earlier, one does not become a billionaire, by playing a few hands of 25 and throwing holy water sorund the place. Sean Quinn's ego is what landed him where he is today and he was willing to do anything to keep his show on the road, when the gamble didn't pay off. Where was his responsibiltiy for his workers, suppliers etc. futures when he first started this gamble, well down the line i suspect.

I'm sure he has a few nice nest eggs still in the stone walls around Enniskillen.

It would be interesting to see how many millions the governements both sides of the border have paid him in grants down the years and here we (the tax payer) are again bailing him out, when other business people weren't preapred to do it when things started to go tits up.

[supersarsfields]

Emm he was hardly stealing the money. He was giving a valid policy. And the policy still would have been covered after AdministratIon. Many people pay insurance upright.
To be honest that's kind of a non story.

[sammymaguire]

Emm he was hardly stealing the money. He was giving a valid policy. And the policy still would have been covered after AdministratIon. Many people pay insurance upright.
To be honest that's kind of a non story.

sounds good though doesnt it? Desperate times calls for desperate mesuares and all that  total character assasination going on all around the place, now people even have stories coming from the "horses mouth" and it being millions!

I think we may see Mr Quinn appearing as the evil villian aiming to take over the world in the new Bond movie at this stage!