Quinn Insurance in Administration

[whiskeysteve]

I think folks need to get real about who Sean Quinn is withholding money from.

If some people on here had their way anything he had left would be on its way to criminal bondholers in Brussels/Berlin/Paris i.e. A BLACK HOLE.

If you think the remnents of his fortune would go towards hospitals, schools and infrastructure you would be sadly mistaken.

If yous are pissed off at 2.8bn (quite rightly) go march on the dail and ask why the f**k unsecured senior bondholders are getting paid. Theres an elephant in the room here and they will be delighted having the spotlight on SQ.

Yous have 2 choices - bleed him dry to feed rich foreign scumbags and get NOTHING or give the b**tard (if you will) a chance to get back to something entrepreneurial.

What is the pragmatic course of action here?

[Agent Orange]

BTW if SQ had invested in Anglo bonds rather than equity he would still be in business. Who advised him?

Did he not lose €2.5bn in Anglo?

[supersarsfields]

The issue of who advised him/ them is a major issue. It seems Anglo were the only advisors (Despite Anglo being legally required to provide SQ and the Children with independent legal advise) at the time which is a one of the reasons for the values being disputed. Anglo even went as far as trying to get the Quinns to sign rectrospective documents until the Quinns refused!!

[seafoid]

BTW if SQ had invested in Anglo bonds rather than equity he would still be in business. Who advised him?

Did he not lose €2.5bn in Anglo?

He did but nobody holding senior Anglo bonds lost a cent. SQ bought Anglo shares and they are worth zero but senior Anglo bonds are worth 100 cent on the euro. If he had bought the bonds he would still be flying.

[Declan]

He is an honourable man. He has been very loyal to the folk of Fermanagh/Cavan, even Dublin for Christ's sake and always played by the book

What book would that be then?

[Lone Shark]

I think folks need to get real about who Sean Quinn is withholding money from.

If some people on here had their way anything he had left would be on its way to criminal bondholers in Brussels/Berlin/Paris i.e. A BLACK HOLE.

If you think the remnents of his fortune would go towards hospitals, schools and infrastructure you would be sadly mistaken.

If yous are pissed off at 2.8bn (quite rightly) go march on the dail and ask why the f**k unsecured senior bondholders are getting paid. Theres an elephant in the room here and they will be delighted having the spotlight on SQ.

Yous have 2 choices - bleed him dry to feed rich foreign scumbags and get NOTHING or give the b**tard (if you will) a chance to get back to something entrepreneurial.

What is the pragmatic course of action here?

That would all be a fine argument except that we're going to fill the hole, no matter how big it gets. I agree that we shouldn't, but our elected representatives have decided that we should. So every penny that SQ took out of his business to give to his family will have to be made up. It's very easy to say that the number is so big, this will make no difference, but it's not - the number is big, but not infinitely big. And like it or not, we're paying every cent.

It's not an either/or situation. The bondholders will be paid either way, regardless of the gross unfairness of that situation. All this means is that we pay them more than we would otherwise have had to if Quinn hadn't looted his companies before going bankrupt.

C'mon Lone Shark. What would you do if you were in SQ's shoes? He is an honourable man. He has been very loyal to the folk of Fermanagh/Cavan, even Dublin for Christ's sake and always played by the book. His life and livelihood was ripped from under his feet because of 'liquidity' and loan issues but if he'd have been allowed a number of month's grace to sort this out, he would have done.

That man and his family owe the Irish state f**k all, they owed him alot more a couple of years ago when this all kicked off and look where it got them.

Arguing that others would have acted the same as SQ if in his shoes is not the point. That's an ethical debate regarding how many people would do the wrong thing if they knew they'd get away with it. What I would or wouldn't do is hardly relevant. The fact is that just because he got away with it doesn't make it right.

And explain to me how he would have found 2.8bn if given "a few months grace"?

[muppet]

The issue of who advised him/ them is a major issue. It seems Anglo were the only advisors (Despite Anglo being legally required to provide SQ and the Children with independent legal advise) at the time which is a one of the reasons for the values being disputed. Anglo even went as far as trying to get the Quinns to sign rectrospective documents until the Quinns refused!!

When Sean Quinn entered the Contract for Difference I thought Anglo didn't know about it. My understanding is that he would use a CFD house, normally in London or New York, for the transaction and one of the advantages of CFS is that no one knew who was behind it. i.e. the shares were held by the CFD house and Quinn's name wouldn't appear.

Are you saying he actually used Anglo advisors while creating the transaction?

[sammymaguire]

He is an honourable man. He has been very loyal to the folk of Fermanagh/Cavan, even Dublin for Christ's sake and always played by the book

What book would that be then?

Paying his taxes to the Irish Exchequer and not moving all and sundry to China et al

[sammymaguire]

C'mon Lone Shark. What would you do if you were in SQ's shoes? He is an honourable man. He has been very loyal to the folk of Fermanagh/Cavan, even Dublin for Christ's sake and always played by the book. His life and livelihood was ripped from under his feet because of 'liquidity' and loan issues but if he'd have been allowed a number of month's grace to sort this out, he would have done.

That man and his family owe the Irish state f**k all, they owed him alot more a couple of years ago when this all kicked off and look where it got them.

Arguing that others would have acted the same as SQ if in his shoes is not the point. That's an ethical debate regarding how many people would do the wrong thing if they knew they'd get away with it. What I would or wouldn't do is hardly relevant. The fact is that just because he got away with it doesn't make it right.

And explain to me how he would have found 2.8bn if given "a few months grace"?
[/quote]

He is right to do what he is doing. He was not allowed to deal with his mistake in the right manner which would have kept all parties happy, and I do recall him going on the TV admitting he made a major fcuk up, he never tried to hide that but the control of sorting it out was taken away from him so that is why I have no sympathy for the fuckwits chasing after his empire.

Is this the mafia now? Give us our money NOW or it will triple? It was figuratively speaking, QIL was a cash rich business, the Group would have formulated a business plan to deal with the issues at hand over a number of months and dealt with them in the correct fashion.

The powers that be made a complete bollocks of addressing this is like they do with most things in the Republic.

[Declan]

Paying his taxes to the Irish Exchequer and not moving all and sundry to China et al

And yet he chooses to go bankrupt in a different jurisdiction. He ran his insurance companies improperly for years got caught and whinged and as a result those jobs are in danger. He gambled recklessly on Anglo and left us taxpayers with a massive bill and he's still trying to ride us.

[supersarsfields]

The issue of who advised him/ them is a major issue. It seems Anglo were the only advisors (Despite Anglo being legally required to provide SQ and the Children with independent legal advise) at the time which is a one of the reasons for the values being disputed. Anglo even went as far as trying to get the Quinns to sign rectrospective documents until the Quinns refused!!

When Sean Quinn entered the Contract for Difference I thought Anglo didn't know about it. My understanding is that he would use a CFD house, normally in London or New York, for the transaction and one of the advantages of CFS is that no one knew who was behind it. i.e. the shares were held by the CFD house and Quinn's name wouldn't appear.

Are you saying he actually used Anglo advisors while creating the transaction?

My gathering is that the CFD's were built up using his own money, then with the drop in share price he made it known to Anglo that he wasn't in a position to meet them. At this point Anglo then lent SQ money under which the guarantees were attached. But Anglo provided no legal advise on these loans and/or guarantees, which is part of the case the Quinns are disputing.

Again this is from my limited grasp of the cases the Quinns are making so could be wrong as it's the CFD's area where it starts to get confusing.

Just wondering if anyone else can answer something for me. Is there any other benefit for the State to want to Bankrupt SQ in the South other than preventing him to go into business again for 12 years? Is there any financial reasons why they would be down money if it happens in the North?

[supersarsfields]

Paying his taxes to the Irish Exchequer and not moving all and sundry to China et al

And yet he chooses to go bankrupt in a different jurisdiction. He ran his insurance companies improperly for years got caught and whinged and as a result those jobs are in danger. He gambled recklessly on Anglo and left us taxpayers with a massive bill and he's still trying to ride us.

The Irish government were happy enough to reap the benefits of his successful gambles to the tune of over 1Billion in Direct taxes ( I won't even go into the knock on effects on employment, development etc). Then when he made a bad bet they weren't prepared to work with him and decided they knew the best course of action and have well and truely fecked it up. No doubt had he been based in Dublin they might have made a bit more effort to work with him but they don't seem to worried about the border area down there.

[deiseach]

The Irish government were happy enough to reap the benefits of his successful gambles to the tune of over 1Billion in Direct taxes ( I won't even go into the knock on effects on employment, development etc). Then when he made a bad bet they weren't prepared to work with him and decided they knew the best course of action and have well and truely fecked it up. No doubt had he been based in Dublin they might have made a bit more effort to work with him but they don't seem to worried about the border area down there.

In what possible way could they have worked with him? Given him a thousand years to pay it off? The gap between what he borrowed and what he could have repaid is astronomical.

[supersarsfields]

They had a viable proposal put forward that had been audited  by PWC and deemed workable by them to recover most of the money. Rather than what you have now where there is a huge gaping hole. Even if it only brought in half it would be an improvement.   
And that would be in addition to keeping employment going and reducing the likelyhood of redundancies.

Instead you have the laughable situation of the Taoiseach chasing previous Quinn customers begging them to come back and deal with Anglo for the good of the country!! 

[sammymaguire]

The Irish government were happy enough to reap the benefits of his successful gambles to the tune of over 1Billion in Direct taxes ( I won't even go into the knock on effects on employment, development etc). Then when he made a bad bet they weren't prepared to work with him and decided they knew the best course of action and have well and truely fecked it up. No doubt had he been based in Dublin they might have made a bit more effort to work with him but they don't seem to worried about the border area down there.

In what possible way could they have worked with him? Given him a thousand years to pay it off? The gap between what he borrowed and what he could have repaid is astronomical.

was he not a billionaire, worth an astronomical amount of money before things went so badly wrong on him?  did that take a thousand years?? Stupid thing to say.

Declan, I think it is the elected representatives of the Republic of Ireland who have badly let their citizens down, and are taking them for a ride... Why dont you come back to SQ and his wrongdoings when you have sorted out that lot in the Dail.