Quinn Insurance in Administration

[supersarsfields]

1) We'll differ on that. As far as I'm concerned the Quinn family built up the assets and if there was wrong doing by Anglo in trying to take these assets then SQ is very much involved and has ever right to challenge their authority over the assets.

2) There's going to be that much wasted on court fees and consultancy fees that there'll be little to fill any holes by the time it's finished.

3) The assets in question were in the children's names. And from the looks of it Anglo are on very dubious ground with how much "authority" they actually have over these assets. so the Quinns were more than entitled to protect themselves from Anglo attempting to gain control over them. Bringing up the house is getting slightly childish. It was built when the group was going well, hardly a crime is it? And I think your not fully informed if you think that they aren't targeting the house.

4) Er it was you that brought up QIL highlighting it as how the Quinns can't run a company (Tho I think there's plenty of evidence to the contrary). So I was just addressing that point.

5) It's easy to make the gambling allegation into it. But if your going to do that then I think you would agree that if the house isn't playing fair then a punter is well entitled to look his money back.

6) I'd have more confidence of the Quinns developing business in Ireland than either anglo or the Government. You may feel differently and that's fine. another point we'll just disagree on.

7) Leave the looters comments aside. I'd be more inclined of saying I'd rather leave the assets with the rightful owners. Again another point I'm sure we'll not agree on.

But anyway I think it's bedtime.

[trileacman]

I'm with Sarfields. Quinn created something out of nothing, employment for thousands and after a mistake he made the establishment contrived to take him down. I have no problem with him fighting to keep it under control. He's an honourable man in my eyes.

[Lone Shark]

(1) The legal argument here will be made by people better educated than me, but if Sean Quinn owes billions to Anglo, then it's only right that Sean Quinns assets be put towards that debt. The fact that they built them up doesn't change the fact that Sean lost them.

(2) But by that logic the state would never take any court case where they wouldn't cover the legal fee. That's as much an argument for the Quinns backing down as it is for Anglo. It's also a statement of the ridiculous legal costs in the state - which is introducing another scandal, but still not addressing this one.

(3) If it turns out that these assets were in the children's names since before Sean made his bet and the Quinn group became insolvent, were not offered as collateral and no personal guarantees were given by the owners in question, then of course they should stay with the owners. However if that's the case, why are they being sought by Anglo? Why bother with the transfer at all? What am I missing here? Sean Quinn owes Anglo money, and the Quinn Group falls under Anglo's control as a result. Why do any of the five children have to forfeit personal assets?

(4) I believe that there is no evidence that the Quinns can run a financial company, no. Definitely that's an "agree to disagree" job.

(5) It's not an allegation of gambling - it was gambling. In fact his trade was one of the most volatile, risk-laden bets struck by anyone, ever. Secondly, the house was not Anglo. Anglo merely encouraged him to bet. The house was the stock market, which was sending very clear signals that they did not rate Anglo and felt they were on the way out. Sean chose to go against that view. If a trainer or jockey tells me to put my entire fortune on a particular horse, and the horse falls, it's not the bookie that's not playing fair.

Agree to disagree on the rest, as you say.

[Lone Shark]

I'm with Sarfields. Quinn created something out of nothing, employment for thousands and after a mistake he made the establishment contrived to take him down. I have no problem with him fighting to keep it under control. He's an honourable man in my eyes.

Or to put it another way, after he borrowed billions, the establishment contrived to make him pay back the loan that he took out to use for gambling purposes.

We're judging the act here of transferring company assets to private family members so as to keep them away from a bank trying to recoup losses for the taxpayers of this company. I cannot understand this mentality of how those who create employment are entitled to commit these crimes, since their past honourable deeds allows them.

That said, I'm actually interested in this good deeds allows free crime line of thinking. I wonder how many homeless shelters would I have to build and how many jobs I would have to create to allow myself a free and without consequence five minutes in a room with Bertie Ahern in order that I might beat the living daylights out of him? Seeing as job creation seemingly allows you to commit wrongdoing without consequence.

I may be swung around to ye're line of thinking yet.

[trileacman]

Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

[Lone Shark]

Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4777.msg168348#msg168348

That's from 2007. The board changed server the year before, I've been vocal on this since 2005.


Is there anyone out there who thinks that the Quinn family did the right thing in transferring, without justifying it by way of saying that the Government/Anglo were worse, or that the money would never make it's way back to the state anyway?

I hate using that contrived phrase "whataboutery" but it is ridiculously apt.

[AQMP]

Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

I live in Fermanagh and can see the benefits that can accrue from "risk taking entrepreneurial skills".  However what occured with SQ was, in my opinion, reckless gambling rather than risk taking.  Also (in the North at least) the deliberate transfer of assets in order to avoid creditors or liabilities is a no-no.

[trileacman]

Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4777.msg168348#msg168348

That's from 2007. The board changed server the year before, I've been vocal on this since 2005.


Is there anyone out there who thinks that the Quinn family did the right thing in transferring, without justifying it by way of saying that the Government/Anglo were worse, or that the money would never make it's way back to the state anyway?

I hate using that contrived phrase "whataboutery" but it is ridiculously apt.

Me.

[Lone Shark]

Easier said when it's not your tax to fill in the hole I suppose.

[Evil Genius]

Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

I live in Fermanagh and can see the benefits that can accrue from "risk taking entrepreneurial skills".  However what occured with SQ was, in my opinion, reckless gambling rather than risk taking.  Also (in the North at least) the deliberate transfer of assets in order to avoid creditors or liabilities is a no-no.

As a Fermanaghman myself, I hate to see so many good people either losing, or fearing the loss of, their jobs.

But it seems clear to me that from the very start, SQ was/is a gambler. Now granted, he was a very astute gambler (Cement, Glass, Insurance etc), so much so that his efforts created great wealth and jobs etc.

However, like all compulisves, he could (or would) not stop when he reached the limits of his knowledge and expertise. Instead, he extended and increased his gambling, first into the Banking and Property, then into the market in banking and Property Shares, an area where he was clearly out of his depth. Worse, when it all bagan to go wrong, rather than liquidating his losses when they were manageable and retreating to the businesses which he did know, he plunged further in.

That is, he borrowed more money, in highly dubious circumstances, from the self-same people to whom he owed his existing gambling debts, and in an effort to chase his losses, staked it on hugely volatile (and risky) leveraged finacial share derivatives, in an act of desperation which was only likely to go one way.

Worse again, having lost the lot by his recklessness, he then started diverting assets away from his (still profitable) other businesses (especially Insurance), in a gigantic act of throwing good money after bad, which itself was never going to be sufficient.

And finally, now that he has at last been stopped from carrying on gambling, it is alleged that he and his family are busily engaged in hiding what overseas assets they can, from the body duly authorised to try and retrieve what it can from the whole bloody mess, on behalf of the State which ultimately will pick up the bill.

And still there are people out there who sympathise for SQ, despite all the unfolding evidence of just how much havoc he has brought upon himself, and by extension, his loyal supporters and employees etc.

Anyhow, maybe if the people chasing Quinn are as perceptive and learned etc as the likes of Loan Shark, it may be possible to retrieve at least something  from Quinn's overseas assets.

But if they fail, I will confidently predict one thing: there is a better chance of Hell freezing over than there is of the Quinns repatriating those assets back to Ireland, for the benefit of the aformentioned good people of Fermanagh and the other border counties... 

[lynchbhoy]

Easier said when it's not your tax to fill in the hole I suppose.

even if the money/assets are recovered by anglo - what chance or what is th procedure then for anglo to repay to the taxpayer?
there could be some semblence of a policy /procedure out there but I just dont know.
the cynic in me suspects as I have said before that the taxpayer wont recoup anyting - it will go into the big black debt hole as directed by anglo.

also annoyed that its only quinn thats being seemingly chased. Hear that fitz is under investigation, but like those tribunals, they waste time and nothing ever comes of them - again thinks the cynic in me.

[Tubberman]

The great man is filing for bankruptcy in Belfast a week after Anglo took steps to recoup some of the €2bn personal guaranteees that Quinn gave.

Sean Quinn has applied for bankruptcy in the High Court in Belfast this morning.

The Fermanagh-born businessman and founder of the Quinn Group has issued a statement in the past hour, saying he has done everything in his power to avoid taking what the calls the "drastic decision".

However he said he has been left with no alternative.

Mr Quinn and his family are estimated to owe €2.8bn to Anglo Irish Bank.

Anglo last week lodged High Court documents signalling its intention to call in almost €2bn in personal guarantees given by the former head of Quinn Group.

Read more: http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/quinn-applies-for-bankruptcy-527984.html#ixzz1dObeEnxs

[southdown]

Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

I live in Fermanagh and can see the benefits that can accrue from "risk taking entrepreneurial skills".  However what occured with SQ was, in my opinion, reckless gambling rather than risk taking.  Also (in the North at least) the deliberate transfer of assets in order to avoid creditors or liabilities is a no-no.

Is it really a no-no? Iv heard multiple stories of this going on. But I stand to be corrected

[orangeman]

Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn - once believed to have been Ireland's richest man - has been declared bankrupt.

He was granted a voluntary adjudication at Belfast High Court on Friday over an alleged 2.8bn euros (£2.4bn) debt owed to Anglo Irish Bank.

Mr Quinn, 64, was stripped of control of his manufacturing and insurance business empire in April and owes billions of pounds.

He and his family are engaged in a legal battle with Anglo Irish Bank.

Mr Quinn was reputedly worth 4.72bn euros (£3.7bn) at the height of his business success.

It is believed to be one of the biggest bankruptcy orders of its kind ever made in either the United Kingdom or Ireland.

Mr Quinn said he brought the application north of the border because he was born, reared and worked all his life in County Fermanagh.

But by declaring himself bankrupt in Northern Ireland it also means he only has to wait a year before going back into business - rather than 12 years in the Republic.

Continue reading the main story
"
Start Quote
I have done absolutely everything in my power to avoid taking this drastic decision"
End Quote
Sean Quinn
He claimed to have been left with no alternative but to take the "drastic decision" over problems which stemmed from "ill-fated investments in Anglo".

Mr Quinn accepts that he owes around 194m euros to Anglo for property loans which he cannot repay.

But the rest of the alleged debt, which relates to Contracts for Difference (CFDs) used to buy bank shares, is disputed.

The Quinn family are currently suing Anglo, claiming the CFDs were tainted with illegality.

Mr Quinn applied for voluntary bankruptcy through his lawyer and licensed insolvency practitioner, John Gordon of Napier and Sons.

The order was granted during a brief hearing before a Master at the High Court in Belfast.

[Agent Orange]

Isnt that what is known locally as a "move"