Quinn Insurance in Administration

[ludermor]

Im surprised there has been no comment from anyone here about this seeing as some are very vocal about any issue against the Quinns

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/1012/1224305644909.html?via=mr

SIMON CARSWELL and MICHAEL JANSEN in Cyprus

RELATIVES OF businessman Seán Quinn have been accused of stripping $193 million (€142 million) in assets from two Russian companies for the benefit of his family in return for $1,000 and a laptop computer worth $380.

Anglo Irish Bank made the claims in the latest hearing in the complex legal battle between the State-owned bank and Mr Quinn's wife and children for control of the family's international properties.

In a Cyprus court hearing, Anglo claimed that Mr Quinn's wife and five children used a court injunction as cover for "unlawful and hidden actions" to put assets beyond the reach of Anglo, which is owed €2.8 billion by the family. This included transferring the assets of a Russian firm, Finansstroy, which owns the Kutuzoff Tower office block in Moscow, worth $180 million, to their cousin Peter Quinn for about $1,000.

The block is the most valuable asset in the family's international property portfolio which stretches to Turkey, Ukraine and India.

The bank also claimed the family transferred assets worth $13.5 million at another Russian company, Red Sector – the owner of a DIY store – to Stephen Kelly, the husband of Mr Quinn's daughter Aoife, in return for the $380 laptop computer.

The claims are contained in an affidavit sworn by Anglo executive Richard Woodhouse, which was opened in court, despite repeated attempts by the family to block or postpone its admission in the case.

Anglo is seeking to lift the injunction obtained by the family last June which stops the bank seizing control of the properties. The document contained material that was essential to understanding the case, Anglo argued. The Quinns said the claims were "scandalous", "irrelevant", "vexatious" and "frivolous".

The battle for control of the family's international properties, worth about €500 million, has been the subject of lawsuits in Ireland, Cyprus, Sweden and Russia, where the firms behind the properties are based.

Just over €2.3 billion of the family's debt to Anglo arose from loans to cover Mr Quinn's losses on Anglo's share price, which collapsed in the 2008 financial crash. The bank claims the family made changes to international firms giving them full control of Russian properties.

This enabled the firms to accept an unsubstantiated claim for $276 million from a company in the Central American country of Belize that was purportedly unconnected with the family but which Anglo believes is owned by them or for their benefit.

A source close to the family said that any suggestions of criminality against Mr Quinn or his family were "baseless and hardly deserving of comment". "Such spurious allegations will be seen for what they really are; yet another attempt, on the part of Anglo, to blacken the name of Seán Quinn and his family," said the source.

[supersarsfields]

To be honest I'm not surprised Luder. So far it's been pretty one way with Anglo stripping everything of the Quinns (And making a right pigs ear of that as well). The only pity is that SQ was too niave to have everything out of Anglos reach before now.
Anglo now know how much they've fecked up. I see for the first time ever this week they talked about wat might happen if they lose the claim against the Quinns. I can tell you now if they had a chance to go back and take the Quinn proposal now they would jump at it. As would Noonan. But the way things are going the only winners are going to be the Solicitors and financial advisors.   

[Lone Shark]

To be honest I'm not surprised Luder. So far it's been pretty one way with Anglo stripping everything of the Quinns (And making a right pigs ear of that as well). The only pity is that SQ was too niave to have everything out of Anglos reach before now.
Anglo now know how much they've fecked up. I see for the first time ever this week they talked about wat might happen if they lose the claim against the Quinns. I can tell you now if they had a chance to go back and take the Quinn proposal now they would jump at it. As would Noonan. But the way things are going the only winners are going to be the Solicitors and financial advisors.

Please tell me that you're joking? How is it a pity that the fraudulent behaviour against Anglo, which is essentially (and unfortunately) the state taxpayer, wasn't more extensive?

[supersarsfields]

Not a joke at all. You seem to be asserting that Anglo have a right over these properties. There's court cases pending with regards to what "actual" hold Anglo have over them. Quinns still had control of the foreign properties when the transfers were done so I'd hold of on the fraudulent claims. The tax payer will see nothing from the Quinn debt. And that responsibilty lies with Anglo.   

[Lone Shark]

Anglo should have a right to take whatever measures necessary to recover payment of the loans that they extended to Sean Quinn. If companies under his control transferred assets away for essentially nothing, only for him to turn around and say that he can't pay back the money he borrowed, then of course that is fraud. Very basic but no less reprehensible.

The fault may lie with Anglo for extending him the money in the first place, but that's as far as it goes. As we all know, the Anglo then and the Anglo now were two very different entities, so to blame the company now for trying to make the best of a horrible situation and to prevent the Quinn family making out like bandits is hardly a bad thing.

These assets are worth approximately €100 per taxpayer in this country. That might be a triviality to you, but it's not to me. That is theft, pure and simple.

[supersarsfields]

Anglo have no right to do what they want to try and recover the losses. They can do whatever is legal to them and if it turns out they f@@ed up and have lost control over assests due to their incompetience then so be it. I'll cry no tears for them. It's unfortunate that it's fallen on the tax payer but that's as far as my feelings go on that. SQ should do everything in his power to protect him and his family's interests. Anglo and the Irish goverment had their chance to try and work with the Quinns which would have been the better option for the taxpayer, but they thought they knew better and yet again the f@@ked it up. 
So you can cry about theft all you like, just direct it in the right direction!

[lynchbhoy]

To be honest I'm not surprised Luder. So far it's been pretty one way with Anglo stripping everything of the Quinns (And making a right pigs ear of that as well). The only pity is that SQ was too niave to have everything out of Anglos reach before now.
Anglo now know how much they've fecked up. I see for the first time ever this week they talked about wat might happen if they lose the claim against the Quinns. I can tell you now if they had a chance to go back and take the Quinn proposal now they would jump at it. As would Noonan. But the way things are going the only winners are going to be the Solicitors and financial advisors.

Please tell me that you're joking? How is it a pity that the fraudulent behaviour against Anglo, which is essentially (and unfortunately) the state taxpayer, wasn't more extensive?

my first thoughts were this also - however thinking about it more, any monies recovered by anglo most likely would disappear int that great big financial hole and wouldnt be of benefit to the taxpayer.
Do you think anglo will refund us anything that they get back ? I cant see it happening anyhow.
So rather than begrudge the quinns, I would be close to saying fair play to you.
Though wouldnt go quite that far !

has any of the other big 'investors' been pursued by anglo in the same manner quinn was ...
maybe they are but I dont  hear of this as much- all I seem to hear is that they are after quinn.

I suppose he wasnt part of the golden circle so he is fair game !

[Lone Shark]

Anglo have no right to do what they want to try and recover the losses. They can do whatever is legal to them and if it turns out they f@@ed up and have lost control over assests due to their incompetience then so be it. I'll cry no tears for them. It's unfortunate that it's fallen on the tax payer but that's as far as my feelings go on that. SQ should do everything in his power to protect him and his family's interests. Anglo and the Irish goverment had their chance to try and work with the Quinns which would have been the better option for the taxpayer, but they thought they knew better and yet again the f@@ked it up. 
So you can cry about theft all you like, just direct it in the right direction!

I have done. However the treasonous sodomising of this country that was performed by Fianna Fáil in the form of nationalising Anglo, the Bank Guarantee and NAMA does not excuse a free for all where ethics go out the window. Tempting though it is to make the short trip to Clara and take my fury out on Brian Cowen with the breadknife from my crappy rented flat that I will never get out of, it won't solve anyone else's problems and it would make my own situation worse. However my refusal to do that does not mean that I condone what has happened, and neither does it mean that I cannot also condemn this theft as an equally craven, selfish and despicable act, albeit one that doesn't affect me or my ravaged country quite to the same scale.

Some would say that there's a very, very thin line between condoning what the Quinns did and condoning all out anarchy, where we revert to riots in a land without law and order. In fact I would argue that there is no line, they are the same thing. Why is what they did any more acceptable than any of the London rioters did? They pillaged and took what did not rightfully belong to them. The only difference is that the Londoners weren't as well dressed and don't have a legal team to find the loopholes to excuse them for what they did.

If your own sense of right and wrong can't see this, I genuinely don't know whether to despise you or pity you.

[supersarsfields]

To be honest I think you are the only one who would say that. You seem to be forgetting that the transfering of the assests haven't been deemed illegal. The Quinns had control of the companies when the assests were moved. So I hope your not saying that Anglo should have acted illegally to get these assests are you? You wouldn't be suggesting fraud there now would ya?
In addition to that, where do you draw the line with the law and order? at the minute now the Quinns have three strong cases against the state and Anglo with regards to the actions they took. I assume that should the Quinns be deemed legally right that you will support them fully and support any compensation claim that might arise out of that?

Will you feck!!

So it seems to me that it's you that can't decide what is wrong or right.

[Lone Shark]

I have no problem determining what is wrong and what is right. I could not be more clear in what I believe.

However in these matters, the sad fact is that there is huge disparity between acts that are right and acts that are legal. I'm not saying for a minute that transferring valuable assets out of an insolvent group of companies for private gain in order to stiff the taxpayer won't be found to be legal, mainly due to the complex system of ownership and cross guarantees of all these sub companies.

I am saying that it is reprehensible, and it turns my stomach, and shows utter disrespect for the other people that have to live in this country and foot the bill. Just as the eminently legal bank guarantee did.

You are saying that what the Quinns did is legal, I am saying that it is morally wrong and they are clearly despicable human beings for doing so. It is entirely possible that we are both correct in our points of view in that regard.

[supersarsfields]

Well it seems to me that you do have a problem deciding what is right and what is not and I would seriously question your morality.

You are looking at this from the view point that Quinns are the villians in the piece from the start and that nothing Anglo have done or are doing is wrong. What you seem to be forgetting is that these problems arose from deceit by anglo in the beginning regarding their balance sheet, was enhanced again when they engaged in support of their share price and then was compounded when they worked out their little military operation to snatch the QG.

And you think that the Quinns should sit back and take that without putting up a fight. Your idea that we can just draw a sand over what happened in Anglo before and what is happening now is nonsense.
The Quinns put their hands up at the mistakes that they made with regards the investment in Anglo, but at least they were prepared to work at solving it rather than turning tale and running. But Anglo decided they could run things better and now look at the QG. On it's fecking knees strangled by huge wages and legal fees.

Your some criac calling SQ despicable considering everything he has done to bolster business in Ireland and improved countless lives around the border area ( tho I'm sure that matters little to yourself). I'm sure you've made as big a contribution yourself have you? Of course I forgot you like to draw a line in the sand and forget everything that went before wouldn't you and all the taxes and investment that the QG made.

You need to catch yourself on with regards who's the villain here. If it comes down to a straight fight between Anglo and SQ I'll be shouting for SQ every day of the week.

[Lone Shark]

If you want to have a debate, argue the points I've actually made. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that the Quinns were villains from the start, and of course Anglo are far from blameless. The Anglo of Fitz/Drumm were amoral thieves gaming the system, and I don't doubt that the current administrators are making some tough and possibly incorrect decisions - though I've no reason yet to believe that any of their acts are intentionally malevolent.

I don't believe you are distinguishing between the two Anglos - the private entity that lent the money in the first place, which was of course illicit and wrong, and the current administration which is forced to pick up the pieces. I'm not saying that the current Anglo bosses are doing everything right, indeed I couldn't say it since I don't have all the information, but of the information that is in the public domain, they appear to be working to retrieve as much as possible from their loan book, which is of course in the interests of the Irish taxpayer and citizenry. I stand by my view that there is a huge distinction between these entities.

The root problem is of course the efforts by Anglo Irish to prop up their share price. On this I agree wholeheartedly. However while the board of Anglo Irish bank at the time were way out of line, so was Sean Quinn for taking part in this. Seán Quinn put his entire empire, and by extension all that employment, on the line in order to try and make even more money speculating on Anglo shares. That was his decision.

Since that was Seán Quinn's decision, I don't agree for one second that he, or the Quinn family, were entitled to dictate to Anglo what to do when the muck hit the fan. They may have wanted to work at solving it, but there was no onus on the administrators of Anglo to let that happen. Anglo had to decide what was the best way of proceeding, and they took a decision, which only time will tell whether it was right or wrong. That does not confer on the Quinn family the right to loot assets belonging to the Irish state on the way out.

What must also be noted here is that as a standalone entity, we've seen exactly what a mess was made of Quinn Insurance. Though I'm not a qualified actuary, I did take actuarial studies in college and thus I'm close friends with a lot of people in that business. Anyone who has seen them has said the same thing - the books of Quinn Insurance were a disgrace, leading to the levy we all must now pay, and naturally enough that is a reflection on the ability of the Quinn family to run a business. It's also understandable that since so many of his other businesses were boom/construction related, the ability of the family to generate profits in a recession is hardly proven.

Of course his investment and commitment to the border counties is laudable. of course I'm hugely sympathetic to all the people who have been, or will be made redundant on account of this whole sorry episode. I've been made redundant, I know that pain of waking up the morning after with no idea where your future lies, and how to make a living. However Sean Quinn was the one who took the decision to put all that in jeopardy. Sean Fitz, David Drumm et al may have been the ones to tempt him into it, but ultimately Sean Quinn borrowed the money and that's the be all and end all. He now owes it, he has to forego his assets, and the stealing by his family is just that - stealing.

You need to catch yourself on with regards who's the villain here. If it comes down to a straight fight between Anglo and SQ I'll be shouting for SQ every day of the week.

It's not a straight fight at all. This is crookery all round. That Seán Quinn might have been honest before doesn't excuse selling assets worth hundreds of millions for loose change, or old laptops, when those assets should be used to discharge his debt to the state.

Is Seán Quinn a better man that Seán Fitzpatrick? Absolutely. But the bar for being called a decent man has to be raised a hell of a lot higher than that.

Can I ask one question? Do you honestly believe that the disposal of assets in this case was right and proper? I don't mean legal, I mean right.

[supersarsfields]

I have been arguing the points, the difference is that you believe that Sean Quinn should now just allow Anglo to do what they want now. I don't believe that is right or fair. I believe that Sean Quinn should do all in his power to gt whatever he can legally get his hands on. I be live this because I can tell you now it will be worth FA to the Tax payers if it goes to Anglo.
I see no difference between the two Anglos because it is the current one that made to decision to grab the Group. A decision that is going to cost the the Irish tax payers millions and cost jobs in an area that can afford to absolve them. They are the ones who thought they could take over the group (put their own people in there on huge salaries) and run it profitability. We've seen how much of an effort they have made of that. 25 Million down on an already reduced forecast over 6 months. I'll let you do The maths on how that's affecting the tax payers.

You are saying that Sean Quinn had no right to dictate to Anglo. That's fair enough, but he wasn't dictating to them. He was trying to offer a solution to the mess that they were in. Anglo refused to accept it so why do you think Sean Quinn should now be dictated to by Anglo and allow them to take everything without contesting it?
When Anglo went behind Sq's back to grab the group in what the called themselves "A military operation", all gloves were of. You seem to be saying that it's OK for Anglo to do what they want to protect themselves but not for Sean Quinn.

And if you want to know a little more about the "Mess" QIL was in take a look at the details put forward by the Concerned Irish businesses to the courts the week before last in part of a affidavit. It will explain a little more about why there is a levy and who is really going to be making the money from the sale of QIL. And I'll give you a clue it won't be QIL and it wont be the tax payers.

Do I believe that the transfer of assets is fair? In a word yes. Because I don't believe the Quinns should be left with nothing from the industry and effort they have made in Ireland throughout the last 40 odd years. I also believe that if the Quinns come away with finance and aren't bankrupt then they will build again, maybe not to the extent of the QG but I believe there would be reinvestment back into Ireland. Do I believe that Anglo should be allowed to swallow it all up with virtually no return to the tax payers, No. That's my view on what I believe is right, not what I think is legal or necessarily what is going to happen.

[Lone Shark]

(1) I don't believe that Seán Quinn should ALLOW Anglo to do anything - I think it should be nothing to do with him. He went all in at the poker table, the assets just aren't his any more, it's as simple as this.

(2) Obviously nothing will ever come back from Anglo into the treasury, however I think we've learned that no matter what Government we put in, any holes that are found will be filled in by the state. As such if there are €300m of Quinn assets that were salted away, then that should fill a hole first.

(3) I would draw a huge distinction between Sean Quinn

allowing them to take everything without contesting it

and the Quinn family engaging in fraud to turn company property into private assets. Let's be real here, we're not talking about Anglo going after private assets of the Quinn family that they acquired with no involvement from the Quinn group. Neither are we talking about his family home, ridiculous mansion that it is. We're talking about assets of the Quinn group, that were bought for farcically inadequate consideration. Again, I'm amazed that you don't see this.

(4) I'm completely aware that there are huge issues over the sale of Quinn Insurance. I don't know enough about the deal to comment definitively, but from what I can find out about it, Anglo/the State have driven a shockingly bad bargain here. However I'm not sure how that relates to the issue of the transfer of Quinn Group assets to the Quinn family, which is the issue we're discussing now. Short of "two wrongs make a right", I can't see any link. Equally, surely you must acknowledge that the Quinn Insurance business model was hugely flawed, and was far from solvent by any adequate measure? Again, coming back with mention of VHI is simply going down the "two wrongs" road yet again.

(5)

I don't believe the Quinns should be left with nothing from the industry and effort they have made in Ireland throughout the last 40 odd years.

If Sean Quinn didn't want to lose everything, he shouldn't have gambled everything. That's the beauty of gambling - you can choose your own stake. He gambled everything, he lost it. This is equivalent to the child that killed his parents looking for sympathy on the grounds of being an orphan.

(6)

I also believe that if the Quinns come away with finance and aren't bankrupt then they will build again, maybe not to the extent of the QG but I believe there would be reinvestment back into Ireland.

Maybe they would. However if the money goes into the exchequer instead, or fills a hole that exchequer funding would otherwise have done, then it definitely would come into Ireland.

(7)

Do I believe that Anglo should be allowed to swallow it all up with virtually no return to the tax payers, No.

Neither do I. However you seem to think that the answer is for Anglo not to get their hands on it in the first place and leave it with the looters, while I feel that the answer is to administer Anglo better to make sure it comes back. If you've a leaky pipe, you don't fix the problem by turning off the water at the mains. Your tap certainly isn't going to work again that way.

[Declan]

Excellently put LS >Have to say I'd be on your side of this particular argument