gaaboard.com

Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: An Gaeilgoir on March 30, 2010, 12:15:49 PM

Title: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 30, 2010, 12:15:49 PM
Taken from Rte.ie
Sign of the times i suppose. The curse of Anglo Irish is having some knock on effect across all business sectors.

Tuesday, 30 March 2010 12:11

The High Court has appointed two joint provisional administrators to Quinn Insurance Ltd.

Mr Justice John Cooke made the order following an application by lawyers on behalf of the Financial Regulator.

The application was made under the 1983 Insurance act.
Advertisement

Michael McAteer and Paul McCann from Grant Thornton have been appointed by the High Court to act as the two joint provisional administrators.

They have been instructed to begin their work immediately.

The court heard the Regulator took this action following serious concerns about the way the group was managing its affairs.

The development means the administrators will run the business as a going concern under different management in the interest of policy holders.

The Regulator now has an on-site presence in the company's offices.

The administrators will run only the general insurance businesss and Quinn's life insurance business remains unaffected.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on March 30, 2010, 12:21:17 PM
Jaysus, things not looking too good in Fermanagh at all these days, what with Division 4 Football, Kyle Lafferty about to win his second SPL medal etc. At least they'll never run out of water ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on March 30, 2010, 12:21:43 PM
More to this than just another company getting into trouble due to the recession I reckon.
The Financial Regulator has requested this "following serious concerns about the way the group was managing its affairs."

I think this is probably down to the enquiries into Anglo, and the 'arrangements' Sean Quinn had in place for his share-dealing shenanigans. Wait and see what comes out I suppose... 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on March 30, 2010, 12:25:34 PM
Scary news day alright what with more money being pumped into the banks and building societies etc.
Country is well and truly donald ducked
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on March 30, 2010, 12:25:46 PM
Little bit more detail from the Irish Times.  This affects Quinn Direct and Quinn Healthcare:

Administrators appointed to Quinn Insurance companies

IRISH TIMES REPORTERS

The High Court has this morning appointed provisional administrators to Quinn Insurance, owner of Quinn Direct and Quinn Healthcare, on an application by the Financial Regulator.

Mr Justice John Cooke installed Paul McCann and Michael McAteer of Dublin accountancy firm Grant Thornton joint provisional administrators to the company in the High Court this morning after the Financial Regulator expressed serious concerns about the finances of the company and how it was being managed.

This in effect means that the State through the Central Bank and Financial Regulator has taken control of the country's largest insurance company.

A spokesman for Quinn Group, the owner of Quinn Insurance, said that the company had no comment to make.

Lawyers for the regulator told the court it had been discovered that subsidiaries of the company had made guarantees in relation to the group's assets in 2005 which has reduced the value of the assets by €448 million. Some directors of Quinn Insurance were unaware of the guarantees, lawyers for the regulator said.

The court heard the company had significantly breaches its solvency ratios. The company had moved from a position where it had an excess of assets over liabilities of more than €200 million to a position where it had €200 million of liabilities over assets.

The application was made by the regulator under the Insurance (No 2) Act 1983 this morning during a vacation sitting of the court. The act allows for a provisional administrator to be appointed on an ex parte  application, meaning only one side was represented.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on March 30, 2010, 12:28:13 PM
Quinn Martin, are you not in administration yet? ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on March 30, 2010, 12:30:01 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 30, 2010, 12:28:13 PM
Quinn Martin, are you not in administration yet? ;D

Tony, I've been fecked since I bought shares in Eircom, way back in the day!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 30, 2010, 12:35:08 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 30, 2010, 12:21:43 PM
More to this than just another company getting into trouble due to the recession I reckon.
The Financial Regulator has requested this "following serious concerns about the way the group was managing its affairs."

I think this is probably down to the enquiries into Anglo, and the 'arrangements' Sean Quinn had in place for his share-dealing shenanigans. Wait and see what comes out I suppose...

i wonder how many more of the "golden ten" investors will end up on the scrap heap due to Seanie and his backroom deals. To be honest haven't much sympathy for them, but as usual it's these company's workers and the tax payer who wil be left in the lurch .We really live in a banana republic.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on March 30, 2010, 12:37:28 PM
Can anyone tell me what being "in administration" in the south means as I know it isn't a formal insolvency procedure as we know it in the UK.  The title of the thread is a bit misleading at the minute anyway.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on March 30, 2010, 12:40:48 PM
Next it'll be RYANAIR.

And as Rois asks what does this administration mean and what about people's insurance policies if it goes under or can't be sold?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bingobus on March 30, 2010, 12:41:21 PM
In the south its Examinership, more or less the same as administration in UK - company is deemed to be a going concern subject to some changes in structure ie debt restructure, shedding of jobs, new operations etc etc.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on March 30, 2010, 12:46:10 PM
But it isn't in examinership - the administrators were appointed under insurance legislation, not insolvency legislation (not to say that that may be the next step). 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 12:49:28 PM
Not liking the sound of this at all!!!  :'(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on March 30, 2010, 12:51:18 PM
Oh crap SS, right enough.  They've been ordered not to write any new business in the UK.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 30, 2010, 01:20:52 PM
Sounds like theres been a bit of creative accounting, and these guys have been brought in to try to correct things. How does using something as collateral reduce its value though?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on March 30, 2010, 01:22:56 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 30, 2010, 01:20:52 PM
Sounds like theres been a bit of creative accounting, and these guys have been brought in to try to correct things. How does using something as collateral reduce its value though?

Not sure about all this accounting business but I work for a General/Commercial Insurance Broker and I would imagine this is massive news for us. . . Not looking forward to the amount of work that's going to be involved though :(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyrone girl on March 30, 2010, 01:25:52 PM
Do a load of insurance claims work for them wonder what way thats affected?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 01:28:29 PM
You a solicitor TG?

I'd imagine (hoping) things will continue as they are, as it's still being run as a going concern. I'm sure there'll be changes in the long run tho.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on March 30, 2010, 01:30:14 PM
Quote from: tyrone girl on March 30, 2010, 01:25:52 PM
Do a load of insurance claims work for them wonder what way thats affected?

The companies will continue to trade as normal and policies and claims are unaffected...at the moment.  The day to day management of the company has been taken out of its hands and it will be managed by the administrators until its house is in order.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 30, 2010, 01:32:18 PM
Quote from: tyrone girl on March 30, 2010, 01:25:52 PM
Do a load of insurance claims work for them wonder what way thats affected?

You're fucked - dont finish with that lad  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on March 30, 2010, 01:46:34 PM

Apparently they're not allowed to write any new UK policies but existing policyholders are unaffected.

I took this off the Quinn Group site:

Sean Quinn's New Year Message to Staff and Customers
7 January 2009

Quinn Insurance has total assets of €2.1bn with over €900m in cash and bonds. It recently opened a new office in Cork and is due to open its newly constructed Navan office in May 2009. This gives it the platform for continued profitable growth in the coming years.


There must be something big going on if they claim to have €900m in cash at the start of 2009 and are in admin by early 2010
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on March 30, 2010, 01:49:10 PM
Apparently they are not allowed to write any business in 'mainland' UK but are still ok in the North and South... is this true? I wouldn't be too sure about the terms of going into administration or going concern etc.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on March 30, 2010, 01:54:59 PM
They can't go "into administration" in the south in the same way that say Zavvi or Nortel were in administration.  I don't think this procedure yet gives them protection from creditors but it may be on the way depending on what the administrators find.  I think this appointment will lead to some discoveries though and will make the information gathering process easier. 

It'll be down to an Anglo thing whereby Quinn owes the state-controlled bank more than normal limits allowed.  A colleague of mine speculated that Anglo (and therefore the state) will swap some of the Quinn debt for equity and then sell off.  An interesting theory.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Sawyer on March 30, 2010, 01:59:57 PM
What about peoples insurance policies?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on March 30, 2010, 02:06:54 PM
this will prob not hit Quinns new venture in Manchester - the glass bottle company where he is due (or has started) producing botles for one of the worlds biggest drinks manufacturers.
I cant really rem all the details , but this venture was awaiting planning permission for 5 or more years and this was given before Christmas if my hazy mem serves correctly.
Meant to be Quinns new money making focal point if this is all true !

meanwhile, I expect Quinn Insurance will get a slap on the wrist, have to hand over some land/buildings to Nama/state and then be allowed carry on as normal - as they will not want the company to close down and lose jobs ...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on March 30, 2010, 02:12:49 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 30, 2010, 01:20:52 PM
How does using something as collateral reduce its value though?

I presume it's down to who gets the first charge over the assets if they have to be liquidated, ie if the asset was a piece of land, and it was sold, who gets first call on the proceeds.  So if a subsidiary borrowed money and secured it on this piece of land, it would not be available firstly to the insurance company, so it couldn't be included in their assets, or the value would be reduced by the sum that the bank has first call over. 

Is Quinn involved in the first transfer of loans to NAMA?  For some reason I don't think they are.  The Irish company won't close, it appears to be profitable, but requires a stronger asset base to continue so will need some sort of new capital, so a sale is possible. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 30, 2010, 02:46:59 PM
Quote from: scud on March 30, 2010, 01:46:34 PM

Apparently they're not allowed to write any new UK policies but existing policyholders are unaffected.

I took this off the Quinn Group site:

Sean Quinn's New Year Message to Staff and Customers
7 January 2009

Quinn Insurance has total assets of €2.1bn with over €900m in cash and bonds. It recently opened a new office in Cork and is due to open its newly constructed Navan office in May 2009. This gives it the platform for continued profitable growth in the coming years.


There must be something big going on if they claim to have €900m in cash at the start of 2009 and are in admin by early 2010


Lessons / tricks learned from Anglo -

Now you see it - seconds later, now you don't !!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on March 30, 2010, 02:52:36 PM
As a fermanagh native I find this news very worrying, only for Sean Quinn's group this area would have very little work. I'm sure people from other counties such as Cavan would feel the same.
I would not claim to be very knowledgable about financial affairs but if the regulator are appointing administrators it does not sound good.
Get Sean Quinn on the LateLate on Friday night to tell us the craic!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 30, 2010, 03:05:41 PM
Quote from: unitedireland on March 30, 2010, 02:52:36 PM
As a fermanagh native I find this news very worrying, only for Sean Quinn's group this area would have very little work. I'm sure people from other counties such as Cavan would feel the same.
I would not claim to be very knowledgable about financial affairs but if the regulator are appointing administrators it does not sound good.
Get Sean Quinn on the LateLate on Friday night to tell us the craic!

This is the so called real economy effect of the actions of the 'Captains of Industry'. So far it appears a single high risk gamble wiped out 4/5ths of Quinn's wealth (Anglo CFD). What we don't know is if there were any other gambles by Mr. Quinn. I hope not.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on March 30, 2010, 03:28:06 PM
Quotebut this venture was awaiting planning permission for 5 or more years and this was given before Christmas if my hazy mem serves correctly.
Meant to be Quinns new money making focal point if this is all true !

Didn't this hit objections etc from Ardagh Glass - who coincidentally were the recipients of that largesse around the infamous IGB site sold for €410M in Ringsend!!!

Also from what I heard his new investments are all in the renewable energy sector.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Louth Exile on March 30, 2010, 03:32:02 PM
Firstly, this creates real fears for a lot of jobs, particularly in Cavan and Fermanagh and no one on here should be making light of that!

Secondly, someone asked about peoples insurance policies? Well, although it is a going concern and may stay as a going concern, we will see Quinn hemorrhage policies over the next while until everything is resolved satisfactorily. When you have the likes of Jill Kirby advising people to consider their options then they should be, this is not like Joe Duffy causing a run on the banks.

Thirdly, if Quinn did go to the wall it would have a huge affect on the Irish general insurance market where they are second only to Aviva. Never been a fan of them, but they did take on motor risks that other companies had no appetite for. If the other companies ended up having to take on these risks you can be damn sure that we will all see our motor premiums go up.

Lastly, it is no conincidence that this occurred on NAMA day and lets hope it it part of a move get all the bad news out there and dealt with and see just how much this state is going to to have to pay for the sins of a few!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TacadoirArdMhacha on March 30, 2010, 03:32:58 PM
Will people be able to renew their NI policies? They sent me out a renewal quote and letter a few days back (think I've another few weeks of my current policy). Has it been announced if they'll be honouring renewal quotes?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on March 30, 2010, 03:42:08 PM
In the exact same situation as TacadoirArdmacha; will someone please answer this man (and me :))
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 03:44:08 PM
Yeah you'll be fine TAM. They're still renewing policies in Ireland. It's only across the water that they are being stopped writing new policies.
I'd don't think this will have an affect on policy holders in Ireland to be honest. Or even in the UK, as it's only affecting the writing of new policies in the UK mainland.
In other words the renewal of policies and any claims process won't be effected in Ireland or NI.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on March 30, 2010, 04:15:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 30, 2010, 03:05:41 PM
Quote from: unitedireland on March 30, 2010, 02:52:36 PM
As a fermanagh native I find this news very worrying, only for Sean Quinn's group this area would have very little work. I'm sure people from other counties such as Cavan would feel the same.
I would not claim to be very knowledgable about financial affairs but if the regulator are appointing administrators it does not sound good.
Get Sean Quinn on the LateLate on Friday night to tell us the craic!

This is the so called real economy effect of the actions of the 'Captains of Industry'. So far it appears a single high risk gamble wiped out 4/5ths of Quinn's wealth (Anglo CFD). What we don't know is if there were any other gambles by Mr. Quinn. I hope not.

Where did you get your figures muppet? I thought his losses had crystalized at around the €1bn mark on the Anglo CFD, but I am very much open to correction! Going by the figures from their website the group as a whole were making €4/500m a year for the last few years. If thats the case, as massive a loss as it was, it was only maybe 3 yrs profit, and most of it was written off in 08 I think - causing a 400m profit to become a 400m loss.

I can't understand how the guarantees, which seem to be made in 2005, and for which both the company and Quinn personally were fined for in 2008, are still in operation. Surely Quinn Insurance would have sorted that out after the knuckle wrap in 08?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Louth Exile on March 30, 2010, 04:18:32 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 03:44:08 PM
Yeah you'll be fine TAM. They're still renewing policies in Ireland. It's only across the water that they are being stopped writing new policies.
I'd don't think this will have an affect on policy holders in Ireland to be honest. Or even in the UK, as it's only affecting the writing of new policies in the UK mainland.
In other words the renewal of policies and any claims process won't be effected in Ireland or NI.

Insurance should be there that if the worst happens that you can be secure in the knowledge that your claim will be paid. If the regulator sought administrators because it had severe doubts over the companies capacity to meet its liabilities, then it does affect policy holders in Ireland!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 04:24:18 PM
The reason the administrator was called in was in reference to it's new business in the UK which it deems not profitable (Most down to accident management companies!!). There has been nothing to suggest that there is any problems with NI or Ireland.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyrone girl on March 30, 2010, 04:34:39 PM
Accident management companies is where the bucks are. Though to be fair Quinns were most efficient insurance company in dealing with any claims out of about the 15 or so i deal with.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on March 30, 2010, 04:40:26 PM
Don't they also sponsor the Late Late Show? Bet Pat Kenny's glad he got out when he did ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on March 30, 2010, 04:45:44 PM
Latest from UK

Existing Quinn Insurance PII cover still valid, says FSA

30 March 2010 | By Nicole Blackmore
The FSA has reassured UK advisers with professional indemnity insurance through Quinn Insurance Limited that their policies will remain valid despite the firm falling into administration.

The Financial Regulator in Ireland today announced that Quinn has been placed into provisional administration and, following an application to the High Court, joint provisional administrators have been appointed.

Quinn's UK branch, Quinn Insurance Limited (UK) or Quinn Direct, specialises in motor and professional indemnity insurance and has now closed to new business. 

The Irish regulator and the FSA have confirmed that existing policyholders in the UK will continue to be covered.

Customers of the firm can continue to make claims and should continue to pay direct debits and premiums in the normal way.

The FSA says it will provide updates on its website as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 04:47:48 PM
Quote from: tyrone girl on March 30, 2010, 04:34:39 PM
Accident management companies is where the bucks are. Though to be fair Quinns were most efficient insurance company in dealing with any claims out of about the 15 or so i deal with.

I don't know how they get away with some of the things they do. Ireland and NI are well behind the UK when it comes to the amount of these companies. You can't get away from them, they're advertising everywere on taxis, buses, radio etc.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: southdown on March 30, 2010, 04:54:57 PM
Quinn tend to pay out straight away on insurance claims and admit liability very early on in the hope of saving legal costs in the long term.  Maybe this policy has backfired on them.  Definitely a lot more accident management compnaies in mainland Britain, which may explain why their UK business is not going as well.  There is only one such company in NI which seems to do Quinn a lot of damage in it's own right.

I'm guessing the reason why there are more of these compnaies in the UK is down to less stringent rules on referral fees.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyrone girl on March 30, 2010, 05:00:20 PM
There is more than one in NI at present.
Quinn are the one insurance company as i said though that dealt with everything asap. Negotiated quickly and paid out quickly
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 30, 2010, 06:30:11 PM
Quote from: scud on March 30, 2010, 04:15:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 30, 2010, 03:05:41 PM
Quote from: unitedireland on March 30, 2010, 02:52:36 PM
As a fermanagh native I find this news very worrying, only for Sean Quinn's group this area would have very little work. I'm sure people from other counties such as Cavan would feel the same.
I would not claim to be very knowledgable about financial affairs but if the regulator are appointing administrators it does not sound good.
Get Sean Quinn on the LateLate on Friday night to tell us the craic!

This is the so called real economy effect of the actions of the 'Captains of Industry'. So far it appears a single high risk gamble wiped out 4/5ths of Quinn's wealth (Anglo CFD). What we don't know is if there were any other gambles by Mr. Quinn. I hope not.

Where did you get your figures muppet? I thought his losses had crystalized at around the €1bn mark on the Anglo CFD, but I am very much open to correction! Going by the figures from their website the group as a whole were making €4/500m a year for the last few years. If thats the case, as massive a loss as it was, it was only maybe 3 yrs profit, and most of it was written off in 08 I think - causing a 400m profit to become a 400m loss.

I can't understand how the guarantees, which seem to be made in 2005, and for which both the company and Quinn personally were fined for in 2008, are still in operation. Surely Quinn Insurance would have sorted that out after the knuckle wrap in 08?

Sindo I know, might be way off.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=15840.0 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=15840.0)

Despite making it to the top ten, Co Fermanagh man Sean Quinn is estimated to have lost a staggering €2.5bn (£2.2bn) supporting the now nationalised Anglo Irish Bank.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on March 30, 2010, 07:33:22 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 30, 2010, 04:40:26 PM
Don't they also sponsor the Late Late Show? Bet Pat Kenny's glad he got out when he did ;D
Hilarious
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 30, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
I see Quinn has written to every minister in the dáil tonight complaining about  heavy handed tactics by the regulator. It seems the new regulator is trying to show there is new sheriff in town, which is no bad thing. If Quinn is clean in all his dealings he has nothing to worry about. it would be a brave politician to back him at the moment, he might be a massive employer and generate a lot of money in the country, but if there are any dodgy deals that may undermine his company and customers policies, good luck to the regulator. Light touch regulation and a "see no evil hear no evil govt." has cost us 50 billion so far,  to be paid for by ordinary Joe and Josephine and their kids and probably their kids as well. Its a pity there is no such crime as "economic treason".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on March 30, 2010, 08:32:45 PM
Should we have a Tribunal?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 30, 2010, 09:05:06 PM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?


Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shrewdness on March 30, 2010, 11:53:20 PM
Was quoted 94 euros by FBD Insurance last November to renew insurance on the tractor.
Thought i'd try Quinn for a quote as i already had the car with them. They quoted me 333 Euros!!!!!!!

Changed my car insurance from them last week.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on March 31, 2010, 12:53:20 AM
Quote from: orangeman on March 30, 2010, 09:05:06 PM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?


Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.
aye and that lesson in corporate governance and company legislation is one he should have picked up a long time ago - it's grand sailing a wee bit close to the wind when you're making glass and cement, but not every industry is the same and sometimes you actually have to abide by the legislation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on March 31, 2010, 09:26:28 AM
Quote from: orangeman on March 30, 2010, 09:05:06 PM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?

Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.

I agree, but I don't agree with Bogball. Quinn Group has been thrown out some very harsh treatment in the last 12 months (which he accepted fairly) but if he did decide to pull the plug on the whole lot and relocate his business operations to Poland/India or where ever then I am pretty sure that would cost the Irish government quite a few bob. The business has been and remains a shining light in the Irish economy over the last 20 years and because the monies within are being used as the company see fit to make it run successfully (and this does not lie well with the regulator) they are being hit hard (maybe its because they can afford it?)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 10:22:01 AM
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on March 30, 2010, 03:32:58 PM
Will people be able to renew their NI policies? They sent me out a renewal quote and letter a few days back (think I've another few weeks of my current policy). Has it been announced if they'll be honouring renewal quotes?

Hi Tam,

Things seem to have changed since yesterday. It looks like it might be starting to affect NI renewals aswell as UK so you might be as well giving customer service a buzz on 0850 850 0845 to see what they say.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Louth Exile on March 31, 2010, 10:50:00 AM
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on March 30, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
I see Quinn has written to every minister in the dáil tonight complaining about  heavy handed tactics by the regulator. It seems the new regulator is trying to show there is new sheriff in town, which is no bad thing. If Quinn is clean in all his dealings he has nothing to worry about. it would be a brave politician to back him at the moment, he might be a massive employer and generate a lot of money in the country, but if there are any dodgy deals that may undermine his company and customers policies, good luck to the regulator. Light touch regulation and a "see no evil hear no evil govt." has cost us 50 billion so far,  to be paid for by ordinary Joe and Josephine and their kids and probably their kids as well. Its a pity there is no such crime as "economic treason".

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The only way a Dail deputy could come out in support of Quinn is if it was a Cavan deputy making an effort to save jobs. Patrick "pussy cat" Neary and his "let the big boys do what they want" regulation is a huge part of the problem we ended up in. Economic Treason for Quinn, Fitzpatrick, Fingleton & Denis Casey!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 31, 2010, 11:01:55 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on March 31, 2010, 09:26:28 AM
Quote from: orangeman on March 30, 2010, 09:05:06 PM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?

Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.

I agree, but I don't agree with Bogball. Quinn Group has been thrown out some very harsh treatment in the last 12 months (which he accepted fairly) but if he did decide to pull the plug on the whole lot and relocate his business operations to Poland/India or where ever then I am pretty sure that would cost the Irish government quite a few bob. The business has been and remains a shining light in the Irish economy over the last 20 years and because the monies within are being used as the company see fit to make it run successfully (and this does not lie well with the regulator) they are being hit hard (maybe its because they can afford it?)

I don't see any harsh treatment anywhere, you break the rules you get punished, if this was happening for the past ten years, maybe we would be 50 billion better off. Quinn is all the the things you say, big employer etc. but i have a sneaking suspicion he saw the regulators train coming down the tracks when he doled out 40 million to each of his kids a while back. I even heard someone talkingon the radio today about the 5,500 people he employs in Ireland, how many breaks of all kinds has he received from Govt. bodies to create these jobs. If Quinn had to save himself or the 5.500 jobs, which would he pick, people are not employed by these companies becuase the likes of Quinn are civic minded individuals, its all about the bottom line and if there weren't any improper dealings thier jobs and the company would be fine as it is quite profitable. Would the regulator be in if there isn't something dodgy or grey going on? I think he has enough to be doing these days. Good on him, clean this messing up for once and for all and let's start again with some proper corporate governence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 11:08:34 AM
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on March 31, 2010, 11:01:55 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on March 31, 2010, 09:26:28 AM
Quote from: orangeman on March 30, 2010, 09:05:06 PM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?

Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.

I agree, but I don't agree with Bogball. Quinn Group has been thrown out some very harsh treatment in the last 12 months (which he accepted fairly) but if he did decide to pull the plug on the whole lot and relocate his business operations to Poland/India or where ever then I am pretty sure that would cost the Irish government quite a few bob. The business has been and remains a shining light in the Irish economy over the last 20 years and because the monies within are being used as the company see fit to make it run successfully (and this does not lie well with the regulator) they are being hit hard (maybe its because they can afford it?)

I don't see any harsh treatment anywhere, you break the rules you get punished, if this was happening for the past ten years, maybe we would be 50 billion better off. Quinn is all the the things you say, big employer etc. but i have a sneaking suspicion he saw the regulators train coming down the tracks when he doled out 40 million to each of his kids a while back. I even heard someone talkingon the radio today about the 5,500 people he employs in Ireland, how many breaks of all kinds has he received from Govt. bodies to create these jobs. If Quinn had to save himself or the 5.500 jobs, which would he pick, people are not employed by these companies becuase the likes of Quinn are civic minded individuals, its all about the bottom line and if there weren't any improper dealings thier jobs and the company would be fine as it is quite profitable. Would the regulator be in if there isn't something dodgy or grey going on? I think he has enough to be doing these days. Good on him, clean this messing up for once and for all and let's start again with some proper corporate governence.

What ever about anything else I think your being unfair to Quinn on this. Out of any of the big business men Quinn has always been one to put the cares of his workers pretty high up on his list. When alot of other companies were stream lining their businesses Quinn was a making a obvious effort to make the least amount of redundancies as possible. He was moving people from different sectors to try and stop him having to make redundancies. He has always shown loyalty to his employees. and for this I believe he should be commended especially in these times when it would have been easy to cut the workforce.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 31, 2010, 11:18:20 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 11:08:34 AM
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on March 31, 2010, 11:01:55 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on March 31, 2010, 09:26:28 AM
Quote from: orangeman on March 30, 2010, 09:05:06 PM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?

Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.

I agree, but I don't agree with Bogball. Quinn Group has been thrown out some very harsh treatment in the last 12 months (which he accepted fairly) but if he did decide to pull the plug on the whole lot and relocate his business operations to Poland/India or where ever then I am pretty sure that would cost the Irish government quite a few bob. The business has been and remains a shining light in the Irish economy over the last 20 years and because the monies within are being used as the company see fit to make it run successfully (and this does not lie well with the regulator) they are being hit hard (maybe its because they can afford it?)

I don't see any harsh treatment anywhere, you break the rules you get punished, if this was happening for the past ten years, maybe we would be 50 billion better off. Quinn is all the the things you say, big employer etc. but i have a sneaking suspicion he saw the regulators train coming down the tracks when he doled out 40 million to each of his kids a while back. I even heard someone talkingon the radio today about the 5,500 people he employs in Ireland, how many breaks of all kinds has he received from Govt. bodies to create these jobs. If Quinn had to save himself or the 5.500 jobs, which would he pick, people are not employed by these companies becuase the likes of Quinn are civic minded individuals, its all about the bottom line and if there weren't any improper dealings thier jobs and the company would be fine as it is quite profitable. Would the regulator be in if there isn't something dodgy or grey going on? I think he has enough to be doing these days. Good on him, clean this messing up for once and for all and let's start again with some proper corporate governence.

What ever about anything else I think your being unfair to Quinn on this. Out of any of the big business men Quinn has always been one to put the cares of his workers pretty high up on his list. When alot of other companies were stream lining their businesses Quinn was a making a obvious effort to make the least amount of redundancies as possible. He was moving people from different sectors to try and stop him having to make redundancies. He has always shown loyalty to his employees. and for this I believe he should be commended especially in these times when it would have been easy to cut the workforce.

I'm sure that is the case, but i had a good friend of mine working in Anglo a couple of years ago would would have said the exact same thing about them, how many are on the dole due to their governence directly or in-directly? It Quinn goes tits up for any reason, it's the taxpayer who gets left the tab, we are still paying a 2 per cent levy on each insurance policy issued in this state since 1982 due to the PMPA fiasco. That is 28 years, add to that the 1 per cent levy stuck on by the governement to raise money, we are up to 3 per cent, if Quinn insurance gets in to bother for what ever reason, this will mean another 2 per cent levy to cover the cost of the company ( i was talking to a risk manager about this). So while Quinn may be a good employer is 5 per cent of all our policies for the next 28 years a good enough reason to leave him alone. Leaving people alone is why we are in this shit today.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on March 31, 2010, 11:26:53 AM
A timeline in the Indo today of the issues surrounding the arrival of the Administrators :

Looks like this has been in the pipeline for a while... The regulator is right that Quinn Insurance cannot be giving guaranteed to other Quinn companies, which could leave QI insolvent ...

October 17, 2008:

The Financial Regulator reaches a €3.25m settlement with QIL after it found "reasonable cause to suspect" that regulatory requirements had been breached.

Sean Quinn is also fined €200,000 and steps down as chairman and director of QIL.

November 2008 to December 2009:

QIL submits a series of financial recovery plans to the financial regulator resulting in a €70,000,000 capital injection into QIL to boost its solvency margin and ratio. Quinn later informs the regulator that it will fall below its solvency margin because expected UK profits did not materialise.

Quinn acknowledges its position is "unacceptable".

Christmas Eve, 2009:

QIL sends an email to the regulator advising that the larger Quinn Group needs a waiver from its financiers in relation to the group's 2009 year-end debt covenants. Debt covenants are agreements between a company and its creditors that the company should operate within certain limits.

January 18, 2010:

The regulator asks QIL to formulate contingency plans for implementation in the event of the failure of the entire Quinn Group.

March 12, 2010:

The regulator rejects plan, saying the investment returns are "very optimistic" and profit forecasts "unrealistic" and pens a letter to Mr Quigley, stating it is "unconvinced the plan is realistic, sustainable or prudent".

March 16, 2010:

Mr Quigley meets the regulator to discuss the March 12 letter. During meeting, regulator outlines concerns, among other things, about QIL's equity and property exposures. QIL submits a revised plan.

March 24, 2010:

QIL drops a bombshell when it informs the regulator about the existence of guarantees by four QIL subsidiaries of advances to the Quinn Group. A plan to release the guarantees is rejected by the group's lenders and note holders.

March 30, 2010:

The High Court appoints provisional administrators to QIL, placing Ireland's second largest insurer into effective state control.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 11:34:04 AM
Why are you putting the 5% levy at the foot of Quinn? The 3% levy already in place had nothing to do with QD.

Plus I've not mentioned anything about the administrator coming in. I'm just pointing out that Quinn has always been one to look after his work force. I'm sure he could have cut the costs of his call centres by relocating them elsewere but he's kept it within the local workforce. My comment was in response to your comment about his feelings regarding his workforce.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 31, 2010, 11:44:27 AM
I'm not putting 5 per cent at the foot of Quinn, but if we are a nation are willing to pay this amount( plus 50 billion) for light touch regulation and be regarded as the wild west of finance in western Europe, lets keep going the way we are. As i said earlier if Quinn was so concerned with his workers futures and their welfare, maybe he wouldn't have been so free and easy with this company's corporate goverence and staturory obligations thus putting his valued workers immeadiate futures in jeopardy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 31, 2010, 11:53:12 AM
The regulators are now being ultra careful - they sat on their holes throughout the entire boom and let banks and developers etc do whatever the hell they liked and then the shit hit the fan.


The insurance regulator is now probably being ultra careful and potentially jumping the gun.

I don't know all the details but I'd say they're trying to put manners in Quinn.


Quinn I've no doubt will emerge from this but not without a kicking.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on March 31, 2010, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: orangeman on March 31, 2010, 11:53:12 AM
The regulators are now being ultra careful - they sat on their holes throughout the entire boom and let banks and developers etc do whatever the hell they liked and then the shit hit the fan.


The insurance regulator is now probably being ultra careful and potentially jumping the gun.

I don't know all the details but I'd say they're trying to put manners in Quinn.


Quinn I've no doubt will emerge from this but not without a kicking.
Quinn has undoubtedly been a boon for the fermanagh/cavan area, he's looked after the region well and it's heartening to see such an operation stay true to its roots and create local jobs etc.  But, as the lads say the way he operates we could all be left with a huge bill, the group or QIL will probably come out of this okay, I would think that some sacrifice might be required at the top of the operation though.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 31, 2010, 12:41:02 PM
But is not simply to do with guarantees and corss guarantees to associated companies which would now on paper seem to be taking away from the liquidity of the insurance business ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on March 31, 2010, 12:41:57 PM
I think the Irish banks have alot more to answer for than the Quinn Group and those twats are effectively being rewarded because they are above being punished  :-\ the Irish doing things arse about tit as usual
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 31, 2010, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: orangeman on March 31, 2010, 11:53:12 AM
The regulators are now being ultra careful - they sat on their holes throughout the entire boom and let banks and developers etc do whatever the hell they liked and then the shit hit the fan.


The insurance regulator is now probably being ultra careful and potentially jumping the gun.

I don't know all the details but I'd say they're trying to put manners in Quinn.


Quinn I've no doubt will emerge from this but not without a kicking.
Quinn has undoubtedly been a boon for the fermanagh/cavan area, he's looked after the region well and it's heartening to see such an operation stay true to its roots and create local jobs etc.  But, as the lads say the way he operates we could all be left with a huge bill, the group or QIL will probably come out of this okay, I would think that some sacrifice might be required at the top of the operation though.

How?

It'd be nothing compared to the bill left if he pulled out of the region anyway. I know that all us fermanagh lads are on here defending him, and we're not exactly unbiased, but, most of the people I know at home work for some part of his operation, and noone who does ever has a bad word for it or him, I think that in itself is rare and while anecdotal, says something for me. I dont know much about the whole ins and outs, but he certainly did seem to be badly treated when that fat bitch Harney ran to make new laws to screw him after he bought into the healthcare market. Who was being unscrupulous there?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 01:29:18 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 31, 2010, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: orangeman on March 31, 2010, 11:53:12 AM
The regulators are now being ultra careful - they sat on their holes throughout the entire boom and let banks and developers etc do whatever the hell they liked and then the shit hit the fan.


The insurance regulator is now probably being ultra careful and potentially jumping the gun.

I don't know all the details but I'd say they're trying to put manners in Quinn.


Quinn I've no doubt will emerge from this but not without a kicking.
Quinn has undoubtedly been a boon for the fermanagh/cavan area, he's looked after the region well and it's heartening to see such an operation stay true to its roots and create local jobs etc.  But, as the lads say the way he operates we could all be left with a huge bill, the group or QIL will probably come out of this okay, I would think that some sacrifice might be required at the top of the operation though.

How?

It'd be nothing compared to the bill left if he pulled out of the region anyway. I know that all us fermanagh lads are on here defending him, and we're not exactly unbiased, but, most of the people I know at home work for some part of his operation, and noone who does ever has a bad word for it or him, I think that in itself is rare and while anecdotal, says something for me. I dont know much about the whole ins and outs, but he certainly did seem to be badly treated when that fat bitch Harney ran to make new laws to screw him after he bought into the healthcare market. Who was being unscrupulous there?

I take exception to that!! ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 01:39:48 PM
Merely pointing out my own and a few others geograpical bias, before someone points it out for us in an attempt to rubbish our points :'(

Discerning people from other regions are available, of course: I particularly recommend supersarsfields!  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on March 31, 2010, 02:29:56 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 01:39:48 PM
Merely pointing out my own and a few others geograpical bias, before someone points it out for us in an attempt to rubbish our points :'(

Discerning people from other regions are available, of course: I particularly recommend supersarsfields!  ;)

Just got word that Quinns are not renewing any business in Northern Ireland anymore!!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 31, 2010, 02:50:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 01:12:17 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 31, 2010, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: orangeman on March 31, 2010, 11:53:12 AM
The regulators are now being ultra careful - they sat on their holes throughout the entire boom and let banks and developers etc do whatever the hell they liked and then the shit hit the fan.


The insurance regulator is now probably being ultra careful and potentially jumping the gun.

I don't know all the details but I'd say they're trying to put manners in Quinn.


Quinn I've no doubt will emerge from this but not without a kicking.
Quinn has undoubtedly been a boon for the fermanagh/cavan area, he's looked after the region well and it's heartening to see such an operation stay true to its roots and create local jobs etc.  But, as the lads say the way he operates we could all be left with a huge bill, the group or QIL will probably come out of this okay, I would think that some sacrifice might be required at the top of the operation though.

How?

It'd be nothing compared to the bill left if he pulled out of the region anyway. I know that all us fermanagh lads are on here defending him, and we're not exactly unbiased, but, most of the people I know at home work for some part of his operation, and noone who does ever has a bad word for it or him, I think that in itself is rare and while anecdotal, says something for me. I dont know much about the whole ins and outs, but he certainly did seem to be badly treated when that fat bitch Harney ran to make new laws to screw him after he bought into the healthcare market. Who was being unscrupulous there?

Believe me when I say I detest Harney, but that is a long way from what I remember at the time. Quinn bought in after the (albeit crazy) support scheme for VHI was announced.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 03:33:51 PM
I'm referring to the initial takeover of BUPA: This is vague because I cant remember the details, and dont have time to check them, but my understanding was that a big factor in his decision to buy was that he would be exempt from payments BUPA had to make to VHI, but the government subsequently rushed through legislation to change this? Sounded like an absolute disgrace I thought at the time...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 31, 2010, 05:19:58 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 03:33:51 PM
I'm referring to the initial takeover of BUPA: This is vague because I cant remember the details, and dont have time to check them, but my understanding was that a big factor in his decision to buy was that he would be exempt from payments BUPA had to make to VHI, but the government subsequently rushed through legislation to change this? Sounded like an absolute disgrace I thought at the time...

BUPA pulled out because of the legislation, it can't possibly be claimed that he didn't know about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 05:23:23 PM
I think we'll hear a lot more tomorrow from Quinns perspective on recent events.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 31, 2010, 05:30:11 PM
http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0201/bupa.html (http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0201/bupa.html)


"But the Quinn Group says that, as a new entrant to the market, it will be exempt from these risk equalisation payments for the next three years."

Funnily enough that was early 2007. They knew all about the payments but were happy to have 3 good years before they kicked in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 06:13:37 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 31, 2010, 05:19:58 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 03:33:51 PM
I'm referring to the initial takeover of BUPA: This is vague because I cant remember the details, and dont have time to check them, but my understanding was that a big factor in his decision to buy was that he would be exempt from payments BUPA had to make to VHI, but the government subsequently rushed through legislation to change this? Sounded like an absolute disgrace I thought at the time...

BUPA pulled out because of the legislation, it can't possibly be claimed that he didn't know about it.

How can you read that as saying he didnt know about them?  ???

I'm saying that in my understanding he should have been exempt from the payments as a new entrant, and this would have been a strong reason supporting the purchase, but they changed the law after he bought it so that he did have to make said payments.

Is that or similar not the case?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 31, 2010, 06:20:48 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 06:13:37 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 31, 2010, 05:19:58 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 03:33:51 PM
I'm referring to the initial takeover of BUPA: This is vague because I cant remember the details, and dont have time to check them, but my understanding was that a big factor in his decision to buy was that he would be exempt from payments BUPA had to make to VHI, but the government subsequently rushed through legislation to change this? Sounded like an absolute disgrace I thought at the time...

BUPA pulled out because of the legislation, it can't possibly be claimed that he didn't know about it.

How can you read that as saying he didnt know about them?  ???

I'm saying that in my understanding he should have been exempt from the payments as a new entrant, and this would have been a strong reason supporting the purchase, but they changed the law after he bought it so that he did have to make said payments.

Is that or similar not the case?

The risk equalisation law was there before he purchased BUPA. It was the reason BUPA left the Irish market.

To me it looks as if he gambled that he could either be considered a new entrant and not pay for 3 years or that he could appeal the law.

Either way it was a gamble and he knew it going in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on March 31, 2010, 06:31:20 PM
QUINN-group Ltd Press Release

QUINN-group Limited wishes to comment on the actions of the Financial Regulator yesterday to appoint provisional administrators to QUINN-Insurance Limited (QIL), which we consider to be pre-emptive, aggressive and unnecessary.
As a preliminary matter, we wish to confirm that the QUINN-group and QIL are fully able to meet all of their payment obligations, and (except as disrupted by the Regulator's Actions) our business continues as normal. Policyholders of QUINN-direct, QUINN-life and QUINN-healthcare, and staff, customers and suppliers of the entire QUINN-group, should continue to deal with us as usual.
The Financial Regulator has justified his actions on the grounds of "certain matters within QIL that have very recently come to light". We understand that he is referring to guarantees provided by certain subsidiaries of QIL, some dating back to 2005, supporting the general indebtedness of the QUINN-group. These guarantees are entirely lawful, do not breach any insurance regulations, and were fully disclosed in the statutory accounts of the relevant companies.
We reviewed these guarantees in the context of our current refinancing, and sought the opinion of the Financial Regulator last week. He took the view that the guarantees were inappropriate. Since then we, our financiers and our respective advisers have been working around the clock to respond to the Regulator's questions and to address his concerns. The guarantees have not been called upon, there was no reason to believe that they would be called upon, and the Regulator was provided with comfort on this by our financiers, most recently in a meeting on Monday 29 March. QUINN-group is in the process of negotiating a refinancing which would have addressed the concerns of the Regulator, and we and our financiers remain confident that this will be achieved. Therefore, the Regulator's analysis that these guarantees give rise to a €448m liability is totally incorrect. The Regulator's demand that the guarantees be released was therefore unnecessary, and not practical in the time which he allowed.
In the light of all these facts, of which the Regulator was well aware, we believe the Regulator made the wrong decision. We do not believe that his decision was in the interests of any of the relevant stakeholders - QUINN-group, its staff, its customers or indeed the Irish Exchequer, which has received well in excess of €1bn in tax from QUINN-group since it was established in 1973. Indeed, we note that yesterday was marked by significant announcements in relation to the Irish economy and the banking sector, and it is highly ironic that, on that same day, the Regulator's action was taken in respect of one of the most successful Irish companies, providing crucial jobs in the export sector.
Even if the Regulator's concerns in relation to QIL were well-founded (which we dispute), it is extraordinary that the Regulator was unwilling to give the necessary time to work through those concerns, rather than taking precipitate action which damages the interests of all stakeholders, including the State.
Separately the Financial Regulator has directed QIL to cease writing new business in the UK, and has commented that the UK business is currently unprofitable. We entirely disagree with this statement and unless reversed, this direction will be immensely damaging to the future prospects of QIL.
While we work through the issues which have been caused by the Financial Regulator's actions, QIL remains focussed on the future and will continue to provide a high level of service to all of its customers. We thank our staff, throughout the QUINN-group and especially in QIL, for their continued commitment to the business. We remain totally committed to working with them, and our customers, to get through this difficult period.

Notes for editors:
1.   The QUINN-group employs 5,500 people in Ireland of which 2,700 are employed in QIL.
2.   The Group is (disregarding the effect of the Financial Regulator's actions) on target to achieve cash profits of between €45m and €50m in the first quarter of 2010, and over €20m in each subsequent month during 2010, and between €1.1bn and €1.2bn over the next 3 years. How many Irish companies can say this today?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on March 31, 2010, 06:36:59 PM
No renewals or new business can be taken on by Quinn Direct in NI or the UK as a result of this administration. Some major companies in the North are going to have to look elsewhere for insurance. We'r talking about tens of millions.
Jobs are gonna go.Cavan/Fermanagh/Monaghan/Longford/Leitrim is gonna be hit hard unless this decision is reversed.
But sure who gives a f**k about the border counties.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on March 31, 2010, 06:59:59 PM
Imagine Anglo Irish bank was based in Carrick on Shannon. Which would be more important? Jobs in Leitrim or the interests of the taxpayer?  Sean Quinn is obviously a mighty man but he seems to have been playing around with corporate governance rules for some time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Emmett on March 31, 2010, 07:30:04 PM
Quote from: boojangles on March 31, 2010, 06:36:59 PM
No renewals or new business can be taken on by Quinn Direct in NI or the UK as a result of this administration. Some major companies in the North are going to have to look elsewhere for insurance. We'r talking about tens of millions.
Jobs are gonna go.Cavan/Fermanagh/Monaghan/Longford/Leitrim is gonna be hit hard unless this decision is reversed.
But sure who gives a f**k about the border counties.

Glasgow Celtic Football Club are currently insured by Quinn Direct.

I work in QDI and my first call today was at 8.01am from a middle-aged "lady" demanding to speak to a manager. She refused to speak to me or a supervisor, it had to be a manager.
I reluctantly passed her through to an A.M. and he spoke to her. He called me and informed me that her exact words were "I would just like to say that I am absolutely f**cking delighted with what is happening to QD. You's are all just a shower of b**tards and I hope that you's go bust and all lose your jobs". She then hung up straight away.
The mentality of some people is bewildering
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 31, 2010, 07:37:56 PM
Quote from: Emmett on March 31, 2010, 07:30:04 PM
Quote from: boojangles on March 31, 2010, 06:36:59 PM
No renewals or new business can be taken on by Quinn Direct in NI or the UK as a result of this administration. Some major companies in the North are going to have to look elsewhere for insurance. We'r talking about tens of millions.
Jobs are gonna go.Cavan/Fermanagh/Monaghan/Longford/Leitrim is gonna be hit hard unless this decision is reversed.
But sure who gives a f**k about the border counties.

Glasgow Celtic Football Club are currently insured by Quinn Direct.

I work in QDI and my first call today was at 8.01am from a middle-aged "lady" demanding to speak to a manager. She refused to speak to me or a supervisor, it had to be a manager.
I reluctantly passed her through to an A.M. and he spoke to her. He called me and informed me that her exact words were "I would just like to say that I am absolutely f**cking delighted with what is happening to QD. You's are all just a shower of b**tards and I hope that you's go bust and all lose your jobs". She then hung up straight away.
The mentality of some people is bewildering

Iris Robinson?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on March 31, 2010, 07:48:03 PM
Sounds more like Mary Coughlan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on March 31, 2010, 09:20:23 PM
Assuming this lady was not a customer of QDI, was this phone call a case of Third Party Ire and Effed! ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 31, 2010, 11:00:00 PM
Quote from: Emmett on March 31, 2010, 07:30:04 PM
Quote from: boojangles on March 31, 2010, 06:36:59 PM
No renewals or new business can be taken on by Quinn Direct in NI or the UK as a result of this administration. Some major companies in the North are going to have to look elsewhere for insurance. We'r talking about tens of millions.
Jobs are gonna go.Cavan/Fermanagh/Monaghan/Longford/Leitrim is gonna be hit hard unless this decision is reversed.
But sure who gives a f**k about the border counties.

Glasgow Celtic Football Club are currently insured by Quinn Direct.

I work in QDI and my first call today was at 8.01am from a middle-aged "lady" demanding to speak to a manager. She refused to speak to me or a supervisor, it had to be a manager.
I reluctantly passed her through to an A.M. and he spoke to her. He called me and informed me that her exact words were "I would just like to say that I am absolutely f**cking delighted with what is happening to QD. You's are all just a shower of b**tards and I hope that you's go bust and all lose your jobs". She then hung up straight away.
The mentality of some people is bewildering


Where is the nearest asylum ?.  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 01, 2010, 07:19:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on March 31, 2010, 06:59:59 PM
Imagine Anglo Irish bank was based in Carrick on Shannon. Which would be more important? Jobs in Leitrim or the interests of the taxpayer?  Sean Quinn is obviously a mighty man but he seems to have been playing around with corporate governance rules for some time.

So come in and put a perfectly functioning company that is making over 1 million a day into administration? Quinn Direct is perfectly solvent FFS.
The Financial Regulator is trying to make Quinn pay for his indiscretions in relation to Anglo-Irish because he is probably about the only man who has anything left. What is the Regulator doing with the rest of these large developers and Fianna Fail cronies who owe Anglo-Irish millions??

Is there an alterior motive here that the Government may be looking to take the whole operation over or is that possible?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on April 02, 2010, 08:50:03 AM
What about Mr. Quinn yesterday, he's openly admitting that he and his family lost 3 billion not the 1 billion assumed in the press from the Anglos share fiasco !!  Also he stated that he owes Anglo over 2 billion and that he had every intention of paying that back, with a plan in place.......QDI was making between 400-500 million a year !
But now this move by the regulator puts all that in jeopardy.................crazy decision in my eyes.............
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Billys Boots on April 02, 2010, 09:09:05 AM
QuoteSean Quinn is obviously a mighty man but he seems to have been playing around with corporate governance rules for some time.

Is this not the issue?  We'd be crying if they couldn't pay their claims.  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bcarrier on April 02, 2010, 09:54:35 AM
On "discovery" of the 448m of guarantees to other companies in the quinn group the assets of the insurance co went from approx +200m to- 200m. -200m is insolvent.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 10:05:55 AM
Quote from: bcarrier on April 02, 2010, 09:54:35 AM
On "discovery" of the 448m of guarantees to other companies in the quinn group the assets of the insurance co went from approx +200m to- 200m. -200m is insolvent.

200 Million in assets?? Where you getting these figures from?
The Regulator wanted QDI to be about 150% solvent, QDI was still 100% solvent. Either that or Sean Quinn lied to millions last night on RTE and made a liar out of the Regulator.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 02, 2010, 10:10:06 AM
QuoteSean Quinn is obviously a mighty man but he seems to have been playing around with corporate governance rules for some time.
It's just amazing what greed does to people. Started the business from scratch but not happy with being a multi millionaire. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Billys Boots on April 02, 2010, 10:16:29 AM
Either corporate governance rules apply to everybody (including Quinn) or nobody - Anglo is in the mess it's in because the Regulator ignored flagrant breaches of these rules (by folk including Quinn).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: phpearse on April 02, 2010, 10:59:11 AM
The reality is lads this is about the banks again. The banks are again putting the squeeze on business to make sure their own balance sheets look better. For months now I have heard of banks closing profitable business by the wothdrawal of facilities previously granted to them. Was chatting to an accountant the other day and he is loosing quite a few customers who have been trading profitably for years and suddenly banks have withdrawn overdraft facilities overnight. One business had it's overdraft facility withdrawn on a Friday and was forced to close on a Monday, despite an excellent trading history. Banks are purely acting in self interest.

What we now have is the banks putting the squeeze on big business as well as the SMEs. What is seems has happened here is that guarantees from Quinn Direct to other businesses in the Quinn Group, if called up could put pressure on the liquidity of QD. QD is not even technically insolvent, there exists the possibiliy in the future of being insolvent if all the guarantees to other businesses in the group need to be paid. But sure every business has the possibility of being insolvent at some stage in the future. Unless the Regulator knows something about the other Group businesses and their standing, it seems a curious move on the Regulators hehalf.

My feeling is that it is the banks that are pushing for this. The banks need to get cash and capital back into their balance sheets. The need to reduce their liabilities and what better way to do that than to withdraw lending facilities to SME and get cash in from big businesses that can afford to pay. They can't get money from the failed speculators (property developers - big and small) so they go after real businesses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 02, 2010, 11:03:20 AM
Quote from: phpearse on April 02, 2010, 10:59:11 AM
The reality is lads this is about the banks again. The banks are again putting the squeeze on business to make sure their own balance sheets look better. For months now I have heard of banks closing profitable business by the wothdrawal of facilities previously granted to them. Was chatting to an accountant the other day and he is loosing quite a few customers who have been trading profitably for years and suddenly banks have withdrawn overdraft facilities overnight. One business had it's overdraft facility withdrawn on a Friday and was forced to close on a Monday, despite an excellent trading history. Banks are purely acting in self interest.

What we now have is the banks putting the squeeze on big business as well as the SMEs. What is seems has happened here is that guarantees from Quinn Direct to other businesses in the Quinn Group, if called up could put pressure on the liquidity of QD. QD is not even technically insolvent, there exists the possibiliy in the future of being insolvent if all the guarantees to other businesses in the group need to be paid. But sure every business has the possibility of being insolvent at some stage in the future. Unless the Regulator knows something about the other Group businesses and their standing, it seems a curious move on the Regulators hehalf.

My feeling is that it is the banks that are pushing for this. The banks need to get cash and capital back into their balance sheets. The need to reduce their liabilities and what better way to do that than to withdraw lending facilities to SME and get cash in from big businesses that can afford to pay. They can't get money from the failed speculators (property developers - big and small) so they go after real businesses.

If this is the plan the country will quickly grind to a halt.

I'm not convinced this is what is going on but it does demonstrate the idiocy of allowing those who created the mess devise the solution.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: keeping an eye on things on April 02, 2010, 11:08:04 AM
It's just amazing what greed does to people. Started the business from scratch but not happy with being a multi millionaire. 

That's a pretty stupid comment to be honest, is every person who wants to expand their business and better themselves greedy??  ::)  If being greedy provides thousands of jobs to the local area he is from and involves paying a considerable amount of tax to the government maybe it's not a bad afflication
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 11:19:18 AM
Quote from: keeping an eye on things on April 02, 2010, 11:08:04 AM
It's just amazing what greed does to people. Started the business from scratch but not happy with being a multi millionaire. 

That's a pretty stupid comment to be honest, is every person who wants to expand their business and better themselves greedy??  ::)  If being greedy provides thousands of jobs to the local area he is from and involves paying a considerable amount of tax to the government maybe it's not a bad afflication

Exactly. The Quinn Group has paid over 1 Billion in taxes to the Exchequer. Greedy my arse.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Billys Boots on April 02, 2010, 01:04:15 PM
So it's pats on the back for all who pay their taxes??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 01:21:51 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on April 02, 2010, 01:04:15 PM
So it's pats on the back for all who pay their taxes??

Yes thats it. Sean Quinn is looking for a pat on the back. ::)

Quinn is probably the biggest employer in my area and that probably includes yours too Billy. Putting a fully functioning and profitable company into administration that is absolutely vital for employment to thousands of people in the region seems like madness to me. QDI had never defaulted on any of its loans or guarantees so why was this action taken?
To me this isn't about Sean Quinn,its about imminent and needless job losses in an area that is grossly neglected for far too long.
The powers that be have taken our trains,they build a Motorway all the way to the Cavan border outside Carnaross which is an insult to all Cavan people and now they are trying to damage the biggest employer in the region.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 01:25:58 PM
GET UP,STAND UP.

To whom it may concern,
 
The decision last Tuesday 30th March to place Quinn Insurances Ltd (QIL) in provisional administration has far reaching implications for business and family life throughout this region, and indeed the whole country.  QIL is a very profitable indigenous business employing 2,700 people in its various offices in the island of Ireland and the UK.  The Quinn Group employs in excess of 5,500 people nationally, and has paid over a billion euro in taxes to the Irish exchequer since its foundation.
 
This administration process seriously puts at risk all of these jobs and the knock on effect on the local economy would be catastrophic.  We in Cavan Chamber of Commerce are organising a rally to take place on Wednesday 7th April 1, 2010 at 5.30pm in the Market Square, Main Street, Cavan in order to demonstrate our solidarity and support for Quinn Insurance, its employees and management and the wider Quinn Group.   
 
We strongly appeal to you, your colleagues, your families, friends and the public at large to acknowledge the value of the Quinn Group Businesses to the development of this region by attending this rally.  We are inviting all our public representatives to address this rally and listen to your voice.
 
Please pass this email onto everybody in your address book.
 
Yours sincerely,
 
Eamon McDwyer
President Cavan Chamber of Commerce
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 02, 2010, 01:27:11 PM
Quote from: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 01:21:51 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on April 02, 2010, 01:04:15 PM
So it's pats on the back for all who pay their taxes??

Yes thats it. Sean Quinn is looking for a pat on the back. ::)

Quinn is probably the biggest employer in my area and that probably includes yours too Billy. Putting a fully functioning and profitable company into administration that is absolutely vital for employment to thousands of people in the region seems like madness to me. QDI had never defaulted on any of its loans or guarantees so why was this action taken?
To me this isn't about Sean Quinn,its about imminent and needless job losses in an area that is grossly neglected for far too long.
The powers that be have taken our trains,they build a Motorway all the way to the Cavan border outside Carnaross which is an insult to all Cavan people and now they are trying to damage the biggest employer in the region.

Watching Quinn last night it seemed he was referring to some agreement with the previous Regulatory administration. Those days are over and that administration is in disgrace. Quinn needs to be compliant with the current reality not the old one.

If his business is as profitable as everyone claims it will come out of this and the jobs will be fine.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 02, 2010, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: keeping an eye on things on April 02, 2010, 11:08:04 AM
It's just amazing what greed does to people. Started the business from scratch but not happy with being a multi millionaire. 

That's a pretty stupid comment to be honest, is every person who wants to expand their business and better themselves greedy??
  ::)  If being greedy provides thousands of jobs to the local area he is from and involves paying a considerable amount of tax to the government maybe it's not a bad afflication

No but when you get involved in dodgy dealings to make yet more money than you could ever need or spend then that's going down the greed path...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 01:41:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 02, 2010, 01:27:11 PM
Quote from: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 01:21:51 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on April 02, 2010, 01:04:15 PM
So it's pats on the back for all who pay their taxes??

Yes thats it. Sean Quinn is looking for a pat on the back. ::)

Quinn is probably the biggest employer in my area and that probably includes yours too Billy. Putting a fully functioning and profitable company into administration that is absolutely vital for employment to thousands of people in the region seems like madness to me. QDI had never defaulted on any of its loans or guarantees so why was this action taken?
To me this isn't about Sean Quinn,its about imminent and needless job losses in an area that is grossly neglected for far too long.
The powers that be have taken our trains,they build a Motorway all the way to the Cavan border outside Carnaross which is an insult to all Cavan people and now they are trying to damage the biggest employer in the region.

Watching Quinn last night it seemed he was referring to some agreement with the previous Regulatory administration. Those days are over and that administration is in disgrace. Quinn needs to be compliant with the current reality not the old one.

If his business is as profitable as everyone claims it will come out of this and the jobs will be fine.

They won't be fine. QDI has been ordered to stop taking any new business or renewals in the North and the UK becasue they are under a different regulator. That is probably half of Quinn Directs potential business gone.
There is a big difference in being compliant( which QDI was) and putting the company into administration. The new Regulator wants to get tough, fair enough, but this decision is just plain wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on April 02, 2010, 01:52:39 PM
These stringent new regulations are obviously a case of closing the stable door after the horse is bolted. But is it not also a case of closing the door when trying to get the horse back into the stable?

What I mean is these regulations should be put in place during the next 'upswing' (whenever that will be) and at this point in time we could actually do with SOME of the more lenient regulatory practices that got us here in the first place?

Sounds perverse in a way, i know, but seems to me that strict regulation should be enforced on a dynamic economy not flogging a shot horse, so to speak. Especially given the amount of self regulation in the economy right now, i.e. organisations shit feared or unable to invest in anything of a large scale (wider issue than those afflicting Quinn right now, i know)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: keeping an eye on things on April 02, 2010, 01:53:33 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on April 02, 2010, 01:04:15 PM
So it's pats on the back for all who pay their taxes??

Plenty of Irish busniessmen are not registered in Ireland to get out of paying taxes to the state so I think paying 1 billion in taxes isn't to bad.


No but when you get involved in dodgy dealings to make yet more money than you could ever need or spend then that's going down the greed path...
[/quote]

Have you any evidence to back that up or can I mark that down as two stupid comments in a row?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 02, 2010, 02:04:26 PM
Lets just wait and see what happens over the next couple of weeks...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 02, 2010, 02:30:13 PM
Quote from: keeping an eye on things on April 02, 2010, 11:08:04 AM
It's just amazing what greed does to people. Started the business from scratch but not happy with being a multi millionaire. 

That's a pretty stupid comment to be honest, is every person who wants to expand their business and better themselves greedy??  ::)  If being greedy provides thousands of jobs to the local area he is from and involves paying a considerable amount of tax to the government maybe it's not a bad afflication

Did Quinn not describe himself/his group as being a bit greedy in the wake of the Anglo Irish shareholding fiasco??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lar Naparka on April 02, 2010, 02:40:30 PM
I don't think I have anything relevant to say about the controversy at the moment. I simply don't know any facts –plenty of opinions maybe but enough people are doing that already so I'll just say I haven't a clue as to which party is in the right in this matter.
But we did have a somewhat similar situation over 25 years ago when PMPA was the dominant player in the Irish insurance market sector. The man behind it was Joe Moore and he was in the Michael O'Leary mould. He had built up his business in a very short time and PMPA was offering far better packages than its competitors in both the car and house insurance business.
Out of the blue, the administrators went in. I think Moore arrived to work one morning to find a stranger in his office.  He was certainly barred there and then from involvement of any sort in his company's affairs.
The fuss was even greater than what is going on now. I think it's fair to sat that public sympathy was solidly behind Moore as he went on the attack, claiming there was nothing whatever wrong with his companies' finances and blaming Dessie O'Malley, the minister responsible for a private vendetta against him.
O'Malley had little or nothing to say in reply and he took an unmerciful pasting from Moore and his allies.
However, when the investigators produced their report, it was obvious that O'Malley hadn't acted a moment too soon as Moore was running the show as a personal fiefdom and genuinely seemed to be unable to grasp the basics of accountancy.
O'Malley was vindicated then and it was clear that he had decided to refrain from public comment to let the law follow its course.
Sean Quinn does seem to be a decent individual and I know a few who work for his companies and they all say he is a decent man and quite fair in his dealings with his employees. Unlike Joe Moore, he is not a showman and he seems to have a good business brain. I couldn't imagine him making a mess of his books in the manner of Moore.
Still, I doubt that the administrators were sent in lightly. I think it will take a good while yet before the picture becomes clear.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 03:06:17 PM
I don't know the facts-do you? Does anybody with an unbiased opinion know them who can tell the public?
I don't know why QDI has been put into administration (as above)
I can't comment on the last question but let's just see how many other witchunts there might be in the coming months.
My point was that the chamber didn't make reference to any of the above. It just said protest against what might be catastophic. A bit narrow-minded I'd have thought.
To the main thread.......................

Why in gods name would the Cavan Chamber of Commerce make any reference to Anglo-Irish or anything else. Their brief and function is to protect and grow businesses in Cavan and it has the cop on to realise that this move could be catastrophically bad for alot of businesses in Cavan. You admit you don't know the facts Lawrence yet you still see fit to pass question over an organisations decision to support the employees of Quinn Direct and the company as a whole.
Now thats narrow-minded.

Do you think if something like this happened down in Cork and a few thousand jobs were at risk that people would be saying ''Oh lets wait and see what comes out of it,sure the regulator must be right'' Would they f**k. They would be out marching on the streets and kicking up a stink. Cavan people are too nice and we get walked over as a result.

As I said before,This isn't about Sean Quinn,its about standing up for an area that in alot of cases seen no Celtic Tiger. Cavan needs Quinn Direct and no matter what Sean Quinn did or did not do in relation to Anglo-Irish,this is a company that is fully functioning and making a profit and at the same time employing 900 hundred people in Cavan. Every person can make their own mind up but that for me is enough to support the workers.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lawrence of Knockbride on April 02, 2010, 03:14:20 PM
Fuckin hell Boojangles, calm yourself.
I admit I don't know the facts and I question (not condemn) an organisation for acting in a way that befits that the Quinn Group is completely innocent. I don't think that's narrow-minded. If a company was shut down for using child labour would the Chamber of Commerce come out and rally against the closure because other people's jobs would be at risk or would they take all the facts and use their influence for the best all-round outcome?
The thing is, some bad findings my come out of this whole issue in the coming weeks and the likes of the Cavan Chamber might look a little silly.
I think I'll stay quiet on this as even pleading ignorance seems to irk you. >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on April 02, 2010, 03:14:20 PM
Fuckin hell Boojangles, calm yourself.
I admit I don't know the facts and I question (not condemn) an organisation for acting in a way that befits that the Quinn Group is completely innocent. I don't think that's narrow-minded. If a company was shut down for using child labour would the Chamber of Commerce come out and rally against the closure because other people's jobs would be at risk or would they take all the facts and use their influence for the best all-round outcome?
The thing is, some bad findings my come out of this whole issue in the coming weeks and the likes of the Cavan Chamber might look a little silly.
I think I'll stay quiet on this as even pleading ignorance seems to irk you. >:(

You didnt plead ignorance Lawrence, you questioned the Chambers decision to support QDI on the Cavan thread without any evidence to back up what you were implying.At the moment I do not trust the current government in any way, and I think most people have the right to feel the same.
I posted that email to let people make their own mind up as I see it as a way of supporting fellow Cavan people.

Child labour?? Bit of an extreme comparsion do you not think.The Chamber will not look silly I can guarantee you that.They are supporting their own and Fair play to them I say. If some bad findings come out of this then I'l apologise to ya.But I am 90% sure that this action from the Regulator will be proved to be wrong.
I'm sorry for coming across angry but this has hit a nerve.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lawrence of Knockbride on April 02, 2010, 04:32:06 PM
It obviously has hit a nerve and that's fine, I don't know your position.
But in questioning the chamber it may have come across as if I was criticising them. Maybe they do know more than I do but it seemed like a lob-sided statement from them. So in questioning, I was doing just that so I don't think I need evidence when I am seeking it with the question.
No need to apologise. Keep that aggression for Sunday in Cootehill ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: anglocelt39 on April 02, 2010, 05:00:55 PM
In fairness Lawrence it tends to be the job of chambers countrywide to make lopsided statements at the best of times, which this isn't You're hardly expecting the Cavan Chamber to appoint itself as a quasi financial regulator on this one? Though mind they mightn't do a worse job than what we've had on that front over the past several years.

I haven't been able to get myself familiar with the story yet  so really can only limit myself to the blindingly obivous. Absolute potential hammer blow for an area that has been ignored by successive governments for god knows how long. Potentially serious social and sporting consequences and I don't blame local groups one bit for trying to mobilise support. I know that over the past several years Sean Quinn had been sucked in by the schiesters that made up the Anglo Irish Bank set and clearly he has taken an absolute monster hit, The fact that the business is in a private company and handling something as far reaching as the insurance sector has probably got the regulators extra worried, unfortunately.

Anyway, my very best wishes to all affected by this and hoping for some sort of a satisfactory outcome.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lawrence of Knockbride on April 02, 2010, 05:20:23 PM
Fair enough lads but all I'm saying is that bodies involved in disputes such as this would usually take a rounded view of all apects before making a statement. Now maybe they have more to say and they will in the future but it just seemed a little odd to me. Anyway, time will tell.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 02, 2010, 05:39:46 PM
I was listening to the economics correspondent for the Irish Independent this morning on rte radio 1 and he was saying that this has been talked about for about 2 years and is NOT the bolt out of the blue that Sean Quinn claims that it is.

He said that he did have sympathy with Sean Quinn's position but that the state of Quinns other businesses were not as profitable as they once were and that the guarantees given by the insurance arm in respect of other loans to other businesses were the problem.

He said that Sean Quinn is well aware of the problems with the ratios in relation to Quinn Insurance.

He reckoned that it is the debt to Anglo Irish of €2.8 billion that is the big concern, i.e that Anglo don't get their money back.

The thing that strikes me is this : why did Sean Quinn give his children €200m between them just a few months ago ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: no mo do yakamo on April 02, 2010, 05:44:22 PM
Because he could.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 02, 2010, 06:26:09 PM
Quote from: no mo do yakamo on April 02, 2010, 05:44:22 PM
Because he could.

That may be alright.

But would this €200m not have sorted a lot of this current mess out ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: no mo do yakamo on April 02, 2010, 07:39:51 PM
I suspect if other insurers were investigated  similar problems would exist due to the general drop in land and share prices. I think someone is trying to get one back at Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 02, 2010, 10:51:55 PM
I have a lot of time for Sean Quinn. He rose from modest beginnings to head a huge empire and employ 1000's of people. He never moved to far from where he came from and until very recently lived in a modest home. Now no doubt he was at some dodgy dealings but unlike many of the others he has the ability to pay it back. I have no doubt he will and he'll continue to make money and jobs. QD is a very profitable company and I can't fathom why this was done, a shot across the bows of the high flyers perhaps? But at the end of the day the regulator is messing with 1000's of jobs and it seems like a rash decision to me. What say Cavans useless minister Smith or should I say what is he reading from his pre prepared script?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 02, 2010, 10:56:47 PM
Quote from: no mo do yakamo on April 02, 2010, 07:39:51 PM
I suspect if other insurers were investigated  similar problems would exist due to the general drop in land and share prices. I think someone is trying to get one back at Quinn.





Correct.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on April 03, 2010, 02:16:36 AM
QuoteI suspect if other insurers were investigated  similar problems would exist due to the general drop in land and share prices.

Quinn Insurance may be profitable and generally solvent but they've given guarantees on €1.2 billion in loans advanced to Quinn Group as a whole. They've taken money that should have held to meet insurance potential claims and used it to bail out other parts of Quinn. This is reckless by any measure and the Reguator was right to step in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 03, 2010, 10:58:58 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 03, 2010, 02:16:36 AM
QuoteI suspect if other insurers were investigated  similar problems would exist due to the general drop in land and share prices.

Quinn Insurance may be profitable and generally solvent but they've given guarantees on €1.2 billion in loans advanced to Quinn Group as a whole. They've taken money that should have held to meet insurance potential claims and used it to bail out other parts of Quinn. This is reckless by any measure and the Reguator was right to step in.

I think this is correct. The conspiracy theory about someone out to get Quinn doesn't wash. It seems he is struggling to survive proper regulation and I suspect there will be a lot of other Irish-based companies who will also struggle with tighter regulation.

I would like to see this new breed of competent oversight extended to other industries.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 03, 2010, 11:52:55 AM
I don't know the answer to this question so I'll ask it :


Was the regulartor obliged / not obliged to inform Quinn Direct that it was going to the High Court to appoint administrators to the business ?


Quinn says they were not informed otherwise they would have told the court that the Regulator was wrong -


When is the next court hearing ??

Surely Quinn can challenge the High Court order if he thinks he's right in what he is saying ?

Otherwise the Regulator is right and Quinn is spouting.

Let's see what happens.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 03, 2010, 12:00:25 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 03, 2010, 11:52:55 AM
I don't know the answer to this question so I'll ask it :


Was the regulartor obliged / not obliged to inform Quinn Direct that it was going to the High Court to appoint administrators to the business ?


Quinn says they were not informed otherwise they would have told the court that the Regulator was wrong -


When is the next court hearing ??

Surely Quinn can challenge the High Court order if he thinks he's right in what he is saying ?

Otherwise the Regulator is right and Quinn is spouting.

Let's see what happens.

If that were the case surely Quinn could have sought an Injunction?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 03, 2010, 12:05:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 03, 2010, 12:00:25 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 03, 2010, 11:52:55 AM
I don't know the answer to this question so I'll ask it :


Was the regulartor obliged / not obliged to inform Quinn Direct that it was going to the High Court to appoint administrators to the business ?


Quinn says they were not informed otherwise they would have told the court that the Regulator was wrong -


When is the next court hearing ??

Surely Quinn can challenge the High Court order if he thinks he's right in what he is saying ?

Otherwise the Regulator is right and Quinn is spouting.

Let's see what happens.

If that were the case surely Quinn could have sought an Injunction?
[/b]

I don't know how it works if the High court appoint administrators - I don't kniw if you can go for an immediate application for an injunction - maybe he has to wait till the next day ?

Reading between the lines, my view is that Quinn is "technically" not meeting the required ratios and has been very taken aback / insulted / slighted by someone telling him that he's not in charge of the chequebook any more. Quinn and the regulator have been having a go at other and the regulator has hit him a fair auld dig. In other words, there's history even if it is a new regulator.

But time will tell.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 03, 2010, 02:58:53 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on April 03, 2010, 02:16:36 AM
QuoteI suspect if other insurers were investigated  similar problems would exist due to the general drop in land and share prices.

Quinn Insurance may be profitable and generally solvent but they've given guarantees on €1.2 billion in loans advanced to Quinn Group as a whole. They've taken money that should have held to meet insurance potential claims and used it to bail out other parts of Quinn. This is reckless by any measure and the Reguator was right to step in.

This is about right.  I think the regulator is saying Sean, there's a difference bteween running an insurance comapny and a cement factory.

Interesting that most people thought it was a bad thing that the banks were allowed to get too big to be allowed to fail...but not Quinns ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on April 05, 2010, 12:56:15 PM
Fermanagh county board support Quinn Group

04 April 2010

The Fermanagh County Board like their neighbours in Cavan have shown their support for the Quinn Group.

An official statement from County Board Chairman Peter Carty reads:

STATEMENT BY COISTE FHEAR MANACH, C.L.G., ON APPOINTMENT OF ADMINISTRATORS TO QUINN INSURANCE

Fermanagh County Committee of the Gaelic Athletic Association, on its own behalf and on behalf of the G.A.A. clubs in this County, condemns the appointment of administrators to Quinn Insurance Ltd.

The Quinn Group, through its Chairman, Sean Quinn, a former captain of Fermanagh Inter-county teams at all levels, has contributed massively to the economy of this county and of our neighbouring county of Cavan, as it has done in several other parts of Ireland. It currently employs a large number of our players and other members, and they have always assured us that this was one of the best and most generous employers on this Island.

For almost half a century, the Quinn family has been involved in this Association, at all levels and in many roles. Never, in our experience, has any member of that family failed to meet his, or her, commitments to the community and the broader society of Fermanagh and Ireland. Therefore, despite the contrary assertions of the Regulator and the Minister for Finance, we have no hesitation in accepting Sean Quinn's word that he would pay all his liabilities, as they fell due and that, there was no risk to policy holders.

We are particularly annoyed that the Regulator had no understanding of the symbolic importance of withdrawing the company's right to write insurance policies in the Six Counties of the North. We too are Irish and we feel the Regulator's understanding of Ireland is limited, evidenced by the position he has adopted on this issue. We would strongly urge him to rethink his decision.

The entire G.A.A. community in this county and, we believe, in the surrounding counties too, stand four-square behind Sean Quinn and the Quinn Group. We call on the Irish Government to act quickly to sort out the mess, which has been created by the ill-considered and pre-emptive actions of one of its agents.

Peter Carty
Chairman
Coiste Fhear Manach, C.L.G.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 12:59:47 PM
That's embarrassing and ridiculous.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on April 05, 2010, 01:20:06 PM
I have to agree with you POG. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 05, 2010, 01:29:34 PM
Pints,
I understand why you think that but really what choice does the county board have??
I would say that every member of our current county panel will be directly or indirectly effected by this.

I drove home today through Belturbet and Ballyconnell.
If Quinn goes, Fermanagh, Cavan, Leitrim, Monaghan will become ghost counties overnight.
People are taking about 5000 pepole losing their jobs.
I would say that you could see nearer 20000 people losing there jobs with the knock on effect.

I have kept quiet on this so far because i know too many people that will be effected by this.

One thing i will say its good to see that the minister for trade and industry has got his priorities right.
Heading for a Jollie to the states instead of staying at home to try and sort this mess out.
Good man
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 01:36:49 PM
I understand that ferm and I feel for anyone in that position (and I know what it's like!)

However, this has absolutely nothing, NOTHING! to do with Fermanagh county board or the GAA as a whole.

Do you think that statement will in anyway help those people who's jobs are at risk? Nope, not on bit. It's an embarrassment to the GAA.

Quote
We are particularly annoyed that the Regulator had no understanding of the symbolic importance of withdrawing the company's right to write insurance policies in the Six Counties of the North. We too are Irish and we feel the Regulator's understanding of Ireland is limited, evidenced by the position he has adopted on this issue. We would strongly urge him to rethink his decision.
that's painfully embarrassing.

Quote
The entire G.A.A. community in this county and, we believe, in the surrounding counties too, stand four-square behind Sean Quinn and the Quinn Group.
and they have no right to speak for the GAA community
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 05, 2010, 02:02:16 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 01:36:49 PM
I understand that ferm and I feel for anyone in that position (and I know what it's like!)

However, this has absolutely nothing, NOTHING! to do with Fermanagh county board or the GAA as a whole.

Do you think that statement will in anyway help those people who's jobs are at risk? Nope, not on bit. It's an embarrassment to the GAA.

Quote
We are particularly annoyed that the Regulator had no understanding of the symbolic importance of withdrawing the company's right to write insurance policies in the Six Counties of the North. We too are Irish and we feel the Regulator's understanding of Ireland is limited, evidenced by the position he has adopted on this issue. We would strongly urge him to rethink his decision.
that's painfully embarrassing.

Quote
The entire G.A.A. community in this county and, we believe, in the surrounding counties too, stand four-square behind Sean Quinn and the Quinn Group.
and they have no right to speak for the GAA community

I think that they have the right to speak for the Gaa community in Fermanagh Pints
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 02:32:02 PM
maybe they should sit back as say fcuk all eh pints? that would be much better than speaking out in some fashion in an attempt to show support although it may be nothing directly to do with the GAA, its still going to affect thousands of people indirectly if this problem becomes worse for the Quinn Group, community and social life in the border counties of Fermanagh and Cavan
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 02:40:18 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 02:32:02 PM
maybe they should sit back as say fcuk all eh pints? that would be much better than speaking out in some fashion in an attempt to show support although it may be nothing directly to do with the GAA, its still going to affect thousands of people indirectly if this problem becomes worse for the Quinn Group, community and social life in the border counties of Fermanagh and Cavan
yes, that's exactly what they should do. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 03:05:52 PM
we prefer to stand by one another in this part of the world, its what we do in times of hardship rather than sit idly by letting others rip the piss  :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 03:29:51 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 03:05:52 PM
we prefer to stand by one another in this part of the world, its what we do in times of hardship rather than sit idly by letting others rip the piss  :o
at any cost?
idiotic and simplistic.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: fearbrags on April 05, 2010, 05:07:49 PM
I  have  to  agree  with  pints ! just  as  stupid as  when  the  government got involved in paying gaa players
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 05:24:45 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 03:29:51 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 03:05:52 PM
we prefer to stand by one another in this part of the world, its what we do in times of hardship rather than sit idly by letting others rip the piss  :o
at any cost?
idiotic and simplistic.

what does it cost to make a stance and make your views clear on something? especially when those views are valid.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 05:35:26 PM
Talk of 5,500 jobs going is scaremongering by Quinn and is lapped up by the media. It would appear to be designed to put pressure on TDs and Ministers.  As far as I can see the worst case scenario would see some of the Quinn group changing ownership. There could be a risk to jobs if that happened but the scaremongering seems to be on the basis that what the Regulator has done might cause Quinn to simply close down. I don't see how that would happen.

I think as this plays out and more information emerges people will start to change their opinion on Sean Quinn. If that happens the above letter will look idiotic.   



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 05, 2010, 05:44:42 PM
A bit cringeworthy, and if it was any other county board I'd be glad it wasn't mine, but f**k it, I like it.

I dont think they expect anyone to take a blind bit of notice of their character reference; its not going to make a difference to whats going on. Someone who will notice it though, is Sean Quinn himself, and thats clearly what its for. In that context, as a message of support for a patron, its not that embarrassing, and certainly not ridiculous.

When Quinn comes out of this, I'd say he'll remember those who were notable for their silence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 05:48:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 05:35:26 PM
Talk of 5,500 jobs going is scaremongering by Quinn and is lapped up by the media. It would appear to be designed to put pressure on TDs and Ministers.  As far as I can see the worst case scenario would see some of the Quinn group changing ownership. There could be a risk to jobs if that happened but the scaremongering seems to be on the basis that what the Regulator has done might cause Quinn to simply close down. I don't see how that would happen.

I think as this plays out and more information emerges people will start to change their opinion on Sean Quinn. If that happens the above letter will look idiotic.
Muppet the letter looks is idiotic no matter what comes out of this.

"we are Irish too" - oh f**king hell - cringe!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 05, 2010, 05:51:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 05:35:26 PM
Talk of 5,500 jobs going is scaremongering by Quinn and is lapped up by the media. It would appear to be designed to put pressure on TDs and Ministers.  As far as I can see the worst case scenario would see some of the Quinn group changing ownership. There could be a risk to jobs if that happened but the scaremongering seems to be on the basis that what the Regulator has done might cause Quinn to simply close down. I don't see how that would happen.

I think as this plays out and more information emerges people will start to change their opinion on Sean Quinn. If that happens the above letter will look idiotic.

We'll see Muppet.

And to say that the talk of the jobs going is merely scaremongering is ridiculous. Even if everything was declared a big mistake tomorrow, there would still be a massive loss of custom. Can you not see that, and the inevitable knock on effects? The longer this drags on, the worse that situation is going to get.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 06:19:54 PM
Wise up POG, you are so full of your own opinion being the only opinion that counts and it being the right opinion too of course and thus everyone else has to be ridiculous and cringeworthy... you are so obviously above "being Irish"

i'd rather see Quinn pull the plug on the whole lot and pay off his loyal staff rather than see others take ownership
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:37:22 PM
No muppet, I wouldn't say at all that Seán Quinn should be above criticism or beyond the mechanisms of state-control. What I would say, however, that this particular decision seems to be as premature as the Regulator's previous invocations were non-existent; that office has gone from the invisible to the in-your-face in one (potentially) devastating stroke.

There is no doubt that he played fast and loose with Anglo, none at all, but the Regulator seems to believe that this gives carte blanche in dealings with Quinn -- to hamstring a going concern in such a fashion as the Regulator has done is reckless in the extreme; there are better and less destructive ways for the Regulator to make the office's presence felt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 06:39:19 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 06:19:54 PM
Wise up POG, you are so full of your own opinion being the only opinion that counts and it being the right opinion too of course and thus everyone else has to be ridiculous and cringeworthy... you are so obviously above "being Irish"

i'd rather see Quinn pull the plug on the whole lot and pay off his loyal staff rather than see others take ownership

You'd rather have his staff looking for jobs than see them working for someone else? wtf?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:46:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 06:46:29 PM
I agree with muppet, this isn't about closing down the quinn group and taking 5500 jobs from cavan, fermanagh.  This will very possibly see a change in ownership though, apparently there's talk that quinn may cut a deal with regards to the 2.8Bn he owes to Anglo, that deal will involve transferring large chunks of the group (at the very least) to Anglo.  I have a lot of sympathy for him, but he chased his losses and that happens us all when we do that, reason and rationale go out the window.  The thing is I seem to remember him losing 400 odd million around the millenium with similar gambling, he apologised and said he's take a back seat with from investing from then on, he did with regards to the groups money (sort of), but he went for broke with his own, of course since he'd made a large chunk of that by gambling on anglo on the way up, can he be castigated for not getting out in time?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:46:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:56:22 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:46:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:56:22 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:46:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.

None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 05, 2010, 07:09:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

The way I see it, the actions of the regulator are likely to trigger loss of custom to such a degree that large-scale job losses will be inevitable. You are speculating about someone coming in to buy it over, thus avoiding most of these losses. I dont think the headlines about the 5,500 jobs under threat are scaremongering.

I dont understand either his vilification a la the bankers - there seems to be a bit of a 'no smoke without fire' attitude going on. He borrowed money which he lost, hes going to pay it back, and was in a position to do so - while he was before the regulator screwed him anyway. To say your kids and grandkids are going to be paying off his gamble is complete bollocks.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:14:20 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 05, 2010, 07:09:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

The way I see it, the actions of the regulator are likely to trigger loss of custom to such a degree that large-scale job losses will be inevitable. You are speculating about someone coming in to buy it over, thus avoiding most of these losses. I dont think the headlines about the 5,500 jobs under threat are scaremongering.

I dont understand either his vilification a la the bankers - there seems to be a bit of a 'no smoke without fire' attitude going on. He borrowed money which he lost, hes going to pay it back, and was in a position to do so - while he was before the regulator screwed him anyway. To say your kids and grandkids are going to be paying off his gamble is complete bollocks.

I'm not speculating about a change of ownership, I am repeating what I read in yesterday's SBP.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:24:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:03:23 PM
None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

So why didn't the Government let Anglo fail, since it patently is of no systemic value to the Irish economy (despite what the FF'ers parrot incessantly).

Then it wouldn't cost the taxpayer anything like the billions we're currently shelling out for that wreck of a betting-shop, and whoever would fall as a result would fall (without the current haemorrhaging of taxpayers' funds).

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:30:12 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:24:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:03:23 PM
None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

So why didn't the Government let Anglo fail, since it patently is of no systemic value to the Irish economy (despite what the FF'ers parrot incessantly).

Then it wouldn't cost the taxpayer anything like the billions we're currently shelling out for that wreck of a betting-shop, and whoever would fall as a result would fall (without the current haemorrhaging of taxpayers' funds).

They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:36:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:30:12 PM
They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.

But the bank guarantee has a ceiling of €100,000, doesn't it? So the reality is that since the vast majority of Anglo's loans are commerical-property loans, it would be the developers who would suffer, not your common-or-garden depositor. Therefore it's not sytstemically important, therefore the cheapest option would have been to let it go, but of course they couldn't let it go since all their cronies' monies were tied up in it.

And so what if Quinn ended up in State ownership? Would that not be preferable to knobbling the trading capacity of Quinn through the offices of the Regulator?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:41:12 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:36:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:30:12 PM
They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.

But the bank guarantee has a ceiling of €100,000, doesn't it? So the reality is that since the vast majority of Anglo's loans are commerical-property loans, it would be the developers who would suffer, not your common-or-garden depositor. Therefore it's not sytstemically important, therefore the cheapest option would have been to let it go, but of course they couldn't let it go since all their cronies' monies were tied up in it.

And so what if Quinn ended up in State ownership? Would that not be preferable to knobbling the trading capacity of Quinn through the offices of the Regulator?

If Quinn ends up in State ownership the jobs would probably be safe.

As for the guarantee, you are talking about deposits. The State guaranteed everything notably the bonds used by Anglo etc to raise money to lend out to developers, house buyers and other such safe transaction.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 07:46:22 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:36:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:30:12 PM
They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.

But the bank guarantee has a ceiling of €100,000, doesn't it? So the reality is that since the vast majority of Anglo's loans are commerical-property loans, it would be the developers who would suffer, not your common-or-garden depositor. Therefore it's not sytstemically important, therefore the cheapest option would have been to let it go, but of course they couldn't let it go since all their cronies' monies were tied up in it.

And so what if Quinn ended up in State ownership? Would that not be preferable to knobbling the trading capacity of Quinn through the offices of the Regulator?
No, around about the end of sept 08, Lenno increased the deposit guarantee to 100K from 22K, this didn't really help matters, in his wisdom (and with the unminuted and unnoted help and advice of some bankers) it was decided to completely guarantee everything both deposits and loans given to and taken by the indigenous banks, thus if anglo were to have been let go at any point after that, the irish state would be liable for all borrowings undertaken by anglo, as these would undoubtedly dwarf the collectible monies we'd owe the difference.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:56:22 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:46:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.
to be perfectly honest, i wouldn't disagree if their houses were to be taken from them - there has to be accountability and responsibility for one's actions too you know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 07:55:07 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.
maybe, thing is we have to pay whatever is owing anyway, the state can't default on it's guarantee - we wouldn't be allowed to for a start (IMF, Merkel, German Invasion.....)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:59:32 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.

I must say I always liked Alan Dukes but I find it annoying listening him saying that it is too expensive to close Anglo.

What he is really saying is 'the politicians, bankers and regulators have screwed up so badly that I am going to take billions off you all to fix it.' No more than the church a little humility wouldn't go amiss.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 08:38:32 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 07:55:07 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.
maybe, thing is we have to pay whatever is owing anyway, the state can't default on it's guarantee - we wouldn't be allowed to for a start (IMF, Merkel, German Invasion.....)

Not Merkel & the Germans BBXV -- their disaffection with the 'European Project' is all too evident with the free-falling of the Euro at the minute (if they weren't going to underwrite Greece, that being the first test of their commitment, they weren't going to be too worried about the smaller Irish economy).

The first tranche of NAMA conversions this past week has only taken 20% of the outstanding toxic debt -- the 'most valuable' of the toxins, with 80% still to be transferred. The much-trumpeted 47% discount on the loans is a smoke-trick -- commercial property values have fallen between 50% and 90% in the last 3 years, so how could they go lower on any of the transferred commerical debts? This is very much the thin-edge of the wedge, we're going to be thumped in the months ahead, with the concomitant (massive) rises in tax that will accompany that (correction).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Pangurban on April 05, 2010, 08:57:11 PM
What about the fact that the Bondholders in Anglo include Irish Pension Funds, Credit Unions etc. Could this not be a valid reason for temporarily at least propping it up. Not to do so could be catostrophic
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 09:00:22 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on April 05, 2010, 08:57:11 PM
What about the fact that the Bondholders in Anglo include Irish Pension Funds, Credit Unions etc. Could this not be a valid reason for temporarily at least propping it up. Not to do so could be catostrophic

That all depends on whether you think that those who dabble in the markets (bondholders included) deserve any protection from the taxpayer. I don't (as someone who has pension payments tied up in bonds -- tough for me). Your definition of catastrophic would differ from mine somewhat Pangurban.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on April 05, 2010, 09:00:34 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 05, 2010, 07:55:25 PM
If QD is as profitable as claimed then there is a need for invvestigation.  We have just passed through one of the worst winters of recent times and households have suffered from flood, frost, etc and every insurance company is struggling to cover all of the claims.  Many such companies depend on investments in the markets to raise funds, etc and that route has been removed by the crunch.  The market view is that the Irsih insurance market is not profitable.
Generally Insurance companies should invest most of their reserves safely in Government bonds. These investments should be regulated by the State. Not so with Quinn Direct and the Irish regulations,, afaiu QD profits were affected, not by increased claims but by bad unsafe investment losses of the cash reserves it holds to cover claims.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 09:03:26 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 08:38:32 PM
Not Merkel & the Germans BBXV -- their disaffection with the 'European Project' is all too evident with the free-falling of the Euro at the minute (if they weren't going to underwrite Greece, that being the first test of their commitment, they weren't going to be too worried about the smaller Irish economy).

The first tranche of NAMA conversions this past week has only taken 20% of the outstanding toxic debt -- the 'most valuable' of the toxins, with 80% still to be transferred. The much-trumpeted 47% discount on the loans is a smoke-trick -- commercial property values have fallen between 50% and 90% in the last 3 years, so how could they go lower on any of the transferred commerical debts? This is very much the thin-edge of the wedge, we're going to be thumped in the months ahead, with the concomitant (massive) rises in tax that will accompany that (correction).
I'm not saying that gerry would ride to the rescue, quite the opposite, I'd say because of the german dissatisfaction, that we've absolutely no choice on the matter of defaulting on the guarantee as this would plunge the euro into chaos and gerry is fed up with that, and we don't want to make him angry ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 05, 2010, 09:03:48 PM
Gene Kerrigan: Citizens lose wealth, wealthy cretins gain

By Gene Kerrigan
Sunday April 04 2010
IF WAYNE Rooney recovers sufficiently from his injury to play for Tottenham Hotspur in the World Cup in South America, how many tries do you reckon he'll score in the first innings?

The question occurred to me last week while considering the thought processes of such major political figures as Eamon Ryan, Finian McGrath and Ned O'Keeffe. Not to mention RTE and the trade union bosses.

The bank bailout is a gargantuan issue, affecting generations. Even those of us used to political monkey business are taken aback by the ease with which the Government gets away with obvious claptrap as an excuse for diverting tens of billions in public money to private use.

Billions are being pumped into Anglo Irish, the banking arm of Fianna Fail's builder wing. It started at €4bn and it's heading to €22bn, with an assurance that it will rise further — be it €40bn or €80bn, whatever Alan Dukes and the other successors to Seanie FitzPatrick demand.

(As usual, when discussing matters of higher economics, this columnist should make it clear that he lacks training in the finer points of debtequity swaps. Unlike such geniuses as Brian Cowen and Alan Dukes, I'm forever mixing up my LTEV with my LTV ratios. In short, I don't know much about economics, but I know when my throat is being cut.)

Eamon Ryan, Minister for Making Meaningless Noises, is an important figure in the current crisis.

Whether it's the bank bailout or the right of Willie O'Dea to blackguard political opponents, Eamon steps up to argue the case.

As he explains how wonderful his Government is, Eamon usually tilts his head to one side and puts on his patronising halfsmile.

He knows we're frightened and suspicious — but he forgives us, the little people. And he'll explain the world to us if we'll just shut our goddamn mouths and do as we're goddamn told.

Last weekend, academic economists got their knickers in knots when Eamon explained how we would probably "have to leave the euro" without the bank bailout. "It's not easy, it's not palatable, but that's the choice you're faced with." When asked about alternatives to Nama, he bullied: "Do you think we should leave the euro?"

Now, leaving the euro would be a massive step — involving setting up a whole new currency. It would be so drastic as to make almost any other course seem safer.

(Besides, is there any combination of the current parties you'd trust to attempt such a gigantic and dangerous project?) Ipso facto — accept the goddamn bank bailout, as arranged by your betters, and shut the hell up.

What troubled the academic economists was that Eamon's view of the bailout ("accept it or leave the euro") didn't make sense. "Without foundation," said Karl Whelan of UCD. "The consistent evidence that senior ministers do not understand the banking situation is extremely worrying."

Brian Lucey of TCD: "Either extremely misleading politics, or a deep, dangerous misunderstanding of almost everything."

When Eamon Ryan explains how we must accept the bailout or leave the euro, it makes as much sense as wondering aloud if Trapattoni will guide Wayne Rooney's cue to make a 147 break in the upcoming Euro Handball Steeplechase.

When an issue is of huge importance, yet is so technical as to be next to incomprehensible to the lay person, a Government minister using such bullying tactics is contemptible. But it fits into the "say anything" culture of this Government. Frighten the punters with comparisons to Iceland.

Shut down discussion by claiming it's the only game in town, while your media cheerleaders parrot, "There is no alternative." Throw around unsubstantiated figures until puzzled journalists habitually report those figures as fact.

Mislead, mislead, mislead. Here's Brian Lenihan: "I am firmly of the view that Ireland cannot contemplate a default."

Memo to Mr Lenihan: Hard to believe, I know, but Anglo is not Ireland. Again: "We can't go around repudiating our debts." No one wants the State to repudiate our debts, but these are not "our debts". They are the debts of private entities — banks, builder investors — who engaged in massive gambling games, and lost.

Memo to RTE reporters: stop referring to "our banks". They are not our banks, they belong to private outfits. Even nationalised Anglo is not "our bank" — it's run by a private coterie of highly paid managers who will do whatever benefits the bank, regardless of its effects on the citizens.

And, by the way, bank economists and stockbrokers are not independent analysts. Politicians? Fine Gael is so brazenly opportunist, maddened by the smell of impending power, constantly searching for the killer soundbite, that its frenetic efforts are woefully unconvincing.

And here's Ned O'Keeffe, Fianna Fail backbencher, on the bailout: "It could create a bigger mess for us than we've ever seen in our life" and might destroy Irish banking. But Ned backs it, anyway. Why? "I'm a member of Fianna Fail and I will vote with the party."

Government supporter Finian McGrath used familiar rhetorical tricks to explain his vote for Nama. "It's the only game in town" — a discredited device used to shut off discussion. "Keeping [Anglo Irish] open costs less" — an unsubstantiated claim by bankers with a vested interest.

Full disclosure: I gave Finian my No 1 preference at the last election. He is a passionate radical — and clearly out of his depth in dealing with the sleight of hand of those using public money to solve private capital's problems.

Anyone doubt that the twin "recapitalisation" and Namafication of Anglo is a transfer of wealth from citizens to wealthy cretins who've screwed up their businesses? Well, read the comment of Moody's, the international ratings agency: "Ireland has put in place an ingenious mechanism."

Moody's is one of the agencies paid by banks and hedge funds to certify that they're credit-worthy.

Moody's happily certified all the lunatic financial gambles that broke the international banking system — and were handsomely paid for it.

Moody's applauds whatever helps wealthy gamblers — therefore it cheerfully endorses the "ingenious mechanism" that pulls the gamblers' chestnuts out of the fire, at the expense of our children's futures.

They see a government long conditioned to genuflecting to banks and builders — overwhelmingly committed to protecting the interests of investors, not the citizenry. And they say, "Good work, lads."

Meanwhile, the fiscal problems must similarly be solved at the expense of the skulls. With great ballyhoo, public service trade union leaders have won a "revolutionary" deal — productivity concessions and service cuts in return for — well, something or other on the never-never.

The media portray the typical trade union boss as a bumpkin version of Che Guevara. In truth, many of them come from the trade union wing of Fianna Fail — most of them love being allowed sit at the top table.

The purpose of the deal on offer is to get them back to that coveted place.

On every front, using threats and promises, a brazen class war has been unleashed against leaderless citizens. And it's all working well, so far.

Anyway, to more serious matters. When swinging his hurley in the away match against the Pittsburgh Steelers, do you reckon Damian Duff will find the going too soft at Punchestown?

Over to you, Eamon.

- Gene Kerrigan
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 09:43:43 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 10:08:29 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 09:43:43 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 10:12:37 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 10:08:29 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 09:43:43 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

Indeed I did, as you will see if you trawl through my posts.

No hunger strike memorial should have been held in Casement Park.

County boards aren't entitled to speak about things they know feck all about.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 10:18:32 PM
Quote from: hardstation on April 05, 2010, 10:15:46 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 10:12:37 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 10:08:29 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 09:43:43 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

Indeed I did, as you will see if you trawl through my posts.

No hunger strike memorial should have been held in Casement Park.

County boards aren't entitled to speak about things they know feck all about.
Jaysus, sam, our own would be very quiet.

'Tis almost a prerequisite for election.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 10:26:23 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 10:08:29 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 09:43:43 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

I want to know how the Mayo CB feel about important issues such as the bank guarantee, stem cell research & whether Jordan/Peter Andre are a better match than Leenie/Ziggy?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 10:43:47 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 10:26:23 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 10:08:29 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 09:43:43 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

I want to know how the Mayo CB feel about important issues such as the bank guarantee, stem cell research & whether Jordan/Peter Andre are a better match than Leenie/Ziggy?

Well I'd be more interested in what they would have to say about issues relative to the county such as there being no decent road between Ballina and Castlebar and of course beastiality 8)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 10:46:51 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 10:43:47 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 10:26:23 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 10:08:29 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 09:43:43 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

I want to know how the Mayo CB feel about important issues such as the bank guarantee, stem cell research & whether Jordan/Peter Andre are a better match than Leenie/Ziggy?

Well I'd be more interested in what they would have to say about issues relative to the county such as there being no decent road between Ballina and Castlebar and of course beastiality 8)

Ballina is surplus to requirements, we have Castlebar. As for beastiality right idea, wrong county. Try Floscommon or maybe Wickla.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: small white mayoman on April 06, 2010, 09:34:21 AM
did i hear on the radio that there are 50 bus's of Quinn staff heading to Dublin for a  March . I dont get it is  the regulator just doing his job ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: cornafean on April 06, 2010, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:56:22 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:46:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.

None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

Collectively they will indeed cost the taxpayer billions. Tens of billions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 09:49:40 AM
Quotedid i hear on the radio that there are 50 bus's of Quinn staff heading to Dublin for a  Marc

Yep you sure did. Unreal stuff.Feel sorry for them but their anger is misdirected. They should look closer to home at their founder for the reason the regulator came in
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: small white mayoman on April 06, 2010, 09:55:23 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 06, 2010, 09:49:40 AM
Quotedid i hear on the radio that there are 50 bus's of Quinn staff heading to Dublin for a  Marc

Yep you sure did. Unreal stuff.Feel sorry for them but their anger is misdirected. They should look closer to home at their founder for the reason the regulator came in

absolutely, makes you wonder though what would have happened if the previous regulator had done his job and called a halt to the banks gallop
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: DickyRock on April 06, 2010, 10:19:24 AM
Have not been told by their employers to go down?

I know their anger is mis-directed but it would be very hard to stick your head above the parapit and question Quinn.

My thoughts are if he really wanted to he would stump up the money to cover the deficit, but it looks like he is prepared to let the insurance arm go
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 10:37:52 AM
QuoteHave not been told by their employers to go dow

Never. Sure this is entirely an employee initiative ;) It's an unfortunate coincidence that their press release came from the same firm that does the corporate stuff for the Quinn Group
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 06, 2010, 10:48:33 AM
Sure what else are they to do??
Sit back and watch as they lose their jobs.
At least they are venting their anger at something
.
From i have witnessed over the past 2 years, the only people that have done this were the OAP's.
Everybody else seems to have rolled over and accepted whatever the government has done to them.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 10:57:10 AM
QuoteAt least they are venting their anger at something

I did say that I have sympathy for them but they are venting it in the wrong direction in my opinion and are being used in a bigger game by the very people they claim loyalty to.

QuoteEverybody else seems to have rolled over and accepted whatever the government has done to them

In this instance it's not the "government" who did anything to them. The regulator's actions are as a direct result of the actions of the Quinn management team.

Not sure about the future of the Quinn Group but the Insurance side of things I think will be OK and from what I hear there are plenty of potential interested parties
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 06, 2010, 11:15:44 AM
Declan can you really blame them??
Quinn has created jobs and employment where previously there was nothing.
What do you suggest they do??
Start protesting against Quinn??

You are correct about there being plenty of interested parties in the insurance sides of things.
Only problem is that these multinational companies will have absolutely no interrest in keeping these jobs in Fermanagh/Cavan.
They will be moved elsewhere.

I for one have been amazed as to what the government in the republic has gotten away with over the last couple of years to shield the Fianna Fail donators who have invested so heavily in property and Anglo Irish.
Why is it that Quinn in the only one being actively chased??
Is it because there is still a chance of getting the money back of him.
What about the rest of the bond holders??  Why are they still unknown??





Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2010, 11:46:19 AM
Quinn  has betrayed the trust of the people of the border region. He has messed around with the regulator for at least 2 years

"For almost two years, the regulator was engaged in exhaustive discussions with the company to force it to bring its solvency levels up to the required standard. Quinn said it would do this by limiting the amount of insurance premiums it was taking on in 2009 to €972m and also target more profitable lines of business in the UK. The regulator agreed to the plan, but the company went on to write €1.05bn of premiums and make a loss of more than €44m in the UK. Quinn also had to write down the value of its property assets by €75m. " Sunday Tribune
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 11:54:55 AM
QuoteDeclan can you really blame them??
No I couldn't blame them for trying to save their jobs but I think they are being used by Quinn group and are pawns in a bigger game. They should be asking questions of their management and not parroting the company line - When I heard the employee "spokesperson" on the radio last week he refused to answer any questions about this which leads me to believe he's a patsy set up by the company to gain public sympathy.

QuoteStart protesting against Quinn??
If protesting means asking him why he broke the rules well then yes. I can understand why they wouldn't take to the streets demanding his head on a plate as some others would feel entitled to do but this unyielding loyalty and unquestioning is exactly what has F**cked this country up.

QuoteOnly problem is that these multinational companies will have absolutely no interrest in keeping these jobs in Fermanagh/Cavan.
They will be moved elsewhere.

I'd say as part of any buy out there would be huge pressure to keep the jobs up there so whilst there maybe some losses I'm not sure whether the whole lot would go

QuoteWhy is it that Quinn in the only one being actively chased??

I'm not sure but maybe it's because he's the only one with a business that is in breach of it's regulations. Re the other developers and bondholders well we have been told that they will be pursued by NAMA etc but I won't hold my breath. On the bondholders I'd be of the same opinion as the argument outlined in Kerrigan's article posted earlier.

I know people who work for Quinn and feel for them just as I also know people who have been made redundant recently and I hope everything works out for them. Unfortunately experience has taught me that ultimately loyalty to the job counts for SFA and I hate to see people being used like this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 01:10:03 PM
would mostly agree with you Dec, but still think that the jobs would be safer with quinn in charge - or one of the quinns if Sean sr had to fall on his sword.
Also think that (conspiricy alert) its all quite cushy now that a lot of the developers have become bankrupt and transferred their remaining assets etc before nama came into proper play. Now the only few standing like quinn are going to be pursued...and thats very suspect from my perspecive.
he is def a scapegoat. his creative accounting was wrong, but to use  phrase from the departed financial regulator (the one that he used about fitzpatrick taking the 94million loan) - it was ethically wrong , but not illegal or legally wrong (because there was no f**king legislation in place from the financial regulator at the time).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2010, 01:43:07 PM
Quote from: cornafean on April 06, 2010, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:56:22 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 06:50:20 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:46:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.

None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

Collectively they will indeed cost the taxpayer billions. Tens of billions.

We are bailing out the banks, not the home owners. They won't get a cent.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 06, 2010, 02:09:16 PM
From today's Irish Times:

Quinn should have no role in insurance group rescue


BUSINESS OPINION: Seán Quinn is architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises his insurance adventure is over the better, writes JOHN McMANUS

WATCHING SEÁN Quinn on the television news last Thursday, it seemed pretty obvious that someone needs to take him aside and explain a few things. The extent to which Quinn seems deluded is positively frightening. It is clear that he fundamentally does not understand the prudential bargain at the heart of the insurance business.

On the news and in several subsequent interviews, he has gone on at length about the profitability of Quinn Insurance, which he tells us makes profits of €20 million a month, and which in theory will allow him repay the Quinn Group's €4 billion of debt.

The first point to make here is that Quinn Insurance does not meet the solvency requirements set by the regulator and has a history of not doing so. The Government allows companies sell insurance provided they obey certain rules, the most fundamental of which is the requirement to have enough assets to meet your liabilities. One of the ways you do this is set aside some of your profits.

Anyone in insurance will tell you that it's much easier to make profits if you don't meet your solvency targets. The trouble is that if you are not meeting your solvency targets you are not running an insurance company, you are running something else. And it's something that might not have the wherewithal to meet its commitments.

That in turn is not something that the Government can let you do if it's serious about protecting its citizens. In fact its something they should take off you before people get hurt, including the employees.

The only amazing thing about Quinn Insurance – and sadly it's not that amazing in the Irish context – is that the company was not seized years ago. Mr Quinn's decision to use the reserves of the insurance company to finance his disastrous foray into Anglo Irish Bank shares should have been sufficient grounds to seize the company in 2008, demonstrating as it did his blindness to the prudential fundamentals of insurance.

Over and above that, the whole – and as yet unexplained – thinking behind taking a secret 28 per cent stake in the country's third-largest bank should, as a minimum, have shown an approach to investment at odds with running an insurance business. Never mind what it said about an attitude to corporate governance.

The anger expressed by Quinn Insurance staff is entirely misplaced. The person they should be asking questions of is the man whose massive investment gambles pushed the company into the arms of the administrator.

The second point on which Mr Quinn needs to be wised up on is that his folksy code of "if I make a mistake I will fix it" does not actually cut when you have helped wreck a bank that will end up costing €20 billion to put down, never mind save.

When the consequences of that include putting in jeopardy an insurance company that one million people count on and that 2,400 work for, "I made a mistake, I will fix it" just sounds like the recipe for mashing up what is left of the business.

The third thing that Seán Quinn needs to grasp is that the fact that he lost €3 billion on shares – most of which went on a disastrous investment in Anglo Irish Bank shares – makes him even less qualified to be let near an insurance company. But, by his tortured logic, the scale of his losses should engender some sort of empathy and lead to us giving him a further chance. It's crackers.

Seán Quinn is the architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises the game is up as far as his adventure in the insurance industry the better. The real issue is how to save Quinn Insurance, because if it goes down the unintended collateral damage will be huge. Not only are jobs at risk, there is the nightmarish scenario of what happens to the health insurance market if Quinn Insurance flounders. Private health insurance is one of the creaky pillars on which the health service is built. Withdraw cover from 400,000 people and the whole thing falls over.

The preferred solution is to find a buyer for Quinn Insurance as quickly as possible and before the whole thing unravels as its bankers and customers take flight. An international buyer would be preferable because it would shift the risk on to their balance sheet and away from the State.

The other alternative is for the State to take it on to its already rather stretched balance sheet via Anglo Irish Bank, which is owed €2.8 billion by the Quinn family and has a charge over the family's assets. But Anglo is in deep enough trouble as things stand without also turning it into a lifeboat for Quinn Insurance

At this stage it's unclear which way things will go, but one thing is obvious: there should be no role for Seán Quinn in what happens.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2010, 02:17:20 PM
Surely it makes more sense to keep the jobs in Fermanagh, Cavan etc where salaries and land are cheaper than in Dublin.
Sean Quinn comes across as a tribal chieftain, the heir to the Maguires, rather than a serious insurance player.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 02:29:16 PM
That Irish Times piece is just about the perfect summation of the situation I'd say. It's also a model of clarity, informative journalism and good writing. Take a bow Mr. McManus.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 04:09:31 PM
so Quinn and quinn insurance really need to just enforce the regulatory requirements and implement proper solvency measures.
I presume this will be at a cost to profitibility - still this should at long last be done by quinns. rules are rules - irrespective of whether everyone else that has come and gone effectively ignored them !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 04:22:43 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 04:22:43 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

What's that got to do with the issue of the regulator stepping in to prevent Mr. Quinn running an insurance company like a betting shop? Do you disapprove of the solvency requirements for insurance companies or just for insurance companies run by Fermanagh men?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bingobus on April 06, 2010, 04:28:33 PM
For months we've talked about regulation and the need for it.

When it arrives and takes on one of the biggest players in the insurance that has clearly broken its underlying solvency requirement we orgainise a march against the regulators actions.

Great wee country!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: small white mayoman on April 06, 2010, 04:33:41 PM
Quote from: bingobus on April 06, 2010, 04:28:33 PM
For months we've talked about regulation and the need for it.

When it arrives and takes on one of the biggest players in the insurance that has clearly broken its underlying solvency requirement we orgainise a march against the regulators actions.

Great wee country!

can't get my head around that either BB ,its like saying we want regulation so long as it does not affect us  ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 04:41:16 PM
lets hope they bring regulation in for all these offenders

will they be chasing legacy offenders too I wonder?

I would like to think they would , plus to jail and heavily fine all these people - including the former financial regulator, fitzpatrick, sheehy, goggin, mulloy etc etc etc

if these guys are 'broke' then send the CAB after their wives money.
eg mcnamara's wife owns a 1.2 million euro appt in manhatten, dont think the lady actually has worked for a couple of decades, and didnt inherit any money....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: small white mayoman on April 06, 2010, 04:44:48 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 04:41:16 PM
lets hope they bring regulation in for all these offenders

will they be chasing legacy offenders too I wonder?

I would like to think they would , plus to jail and heavily fine all these people - including the former financial regulator, fitzpatrick, sheehy, goggin, mulloy etc etc etc

if these guys are 'broke' then send the CAB after their wives money.
eg mcnamara's wife owns a 1.2 million euro appt in manhatten, dont think the lady actually has worked for a couple of decades, and didnt inherit any money....

lets hope so 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 05:16:52 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 04:22:43 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

What's that got to do with the issue of the regulator stepping in to prevent Mr. Quinn running an insurance company like a betting shop? Do you disapprove of the solvency requirements for insurance companies or just for insurance companies run by Fermanagh men?

I was referring to the nice piece my McManus, nothing in that comment about Elderfield or FF's decsion. You have to speculate to accumulate Hardy my old chap thats what business is all about; you won't make any money by saying NO. I really don't think Quinn has been playing with fire here like it is made out thats all.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 05:18:54 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 04:41:16 PM
lets hope they bring regulation in for all these offenders
- including the former financial regulator


If they do that, they'll have to go after Cowen and Ahern as well, because Neary was simply implementing policy and I'm sure he'll sing some song if he's put in the dock. The IFSC and all the foreign banks who sail in her are only here specifically because of "light touch" regulation. It was specifically marketed as such and the financial analysts and journalists who are now screaming about it knew that all the time.

I'm not making excuses for Neary - he should have done his job anyway. But you can bet your sweet bippy if his crew had shown up at Seanie's office anytime pre September '98 and started talking about ratios and prudential requirements and creative financing, he and they would have been looking for jobs half an hour later.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 05:20:46 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 05:16:52 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 04:22:43 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

What's that got to do with the issue of the regulator stepping in to prevent Mr. Quinn running an insurance company like a betting shop? Do you disapprove of the solvency requirements for insurance companies or just for insurance companies run by Fermanagh men?

I was referring to the nice piece my McManus, nothing in that comment about Elderfield or FF's decsion. You have to speculate to accumulate Hardy my old chap thats what business is all about; you won't make any money by saying NO. I really don't think Quinn has been playing with fire here like it is made out thats all.

The world is a different place now than when the cowboys ran the town and you can't run an insurance company on betting dockets. You either regulate or you don't. It's as simple as that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 05:24:55 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 05:18:54 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 04:41:16 PM
lets hope they bring regulation in for all these offenders
- including the former financial regulator
If they do that, they'll have to go after Cowen and Ahern as well, because Neary was simply implementing policy and I'm sure he'll sing some song if he's put in the dock. The IFSC and all the foreign banks who sail in her are only here specifically because of "light touch" regulation. It was specifically marketed as such and the financial analysts and journalists who are now screaming about it knew that all the time.

I'm not making excuses for Neary - he should have done his job anyway. But you can bet your sweet bippy if his crew had shown up at Seanie's office anytime pre September '98 and started talking about ratios and prudential requirements and creative financing, he and they would have been looking for jobs half an hour later.
as you say yourself- you either regulate or you dont
I am somewhat sceptical that those responsible (or is it irresponsible) will face punishment - worst case scenario for them , a few more tribunals will be set up and after years of nothingness, apathy will kick in and one or two scapegoats might carry the can or else those guilty (or deemed guilty) will have died and end up posthumously shouldering all the blame again.

still the financial regulator should have done his job. he didnt. so shoul dgo to jail like the rest.
this wont happen for any of them as we all know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 05:25:39 PM
is this about saving a company or destroying it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 05:29:25 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 05:25:39 PM
is this about saving a company or destroying it?
i'd expect they can 'save' the company (ie continue running as is ) - but need to regulate operations and procedures to offer that required level of solvency. That will cost them profits, but I'd expect them to be able and to be allowed do this- as lets face it, the gov will not want this falling over with the massive job loss and huge pr disaster.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2010, 07:05:24 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 04:22:43 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

I'd say Michael O'Leary would say that all regulators should be shot. He is completely anti everything that gets in the way of him making a profit. Hardly the man to ask is it?

Denis O'Brien would be a different matter altogether.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 08:46:47 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 05:16:52 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 04:27:40 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 04:22:43 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

What's that got to do with the issue of the regulator stepping in to prevent Mr. Quinn running an insurance company like a betting shop? Do you disapprove of the solvency requirements for insurance companies or just for insurance companies run by Fermanagh men?

I was referring to the nice piece my McManus, nothing in that comment about Elderfield or FF's decsion. You have to speculate to accumulate Hardy my old chap thats what business is all about; you won't make any money by saying NO. I really don't think Quinn has been playing with fire here like it is made out thats all.
It's unlikely that O'Leary or O'Brien would have put themselves into a position where they ended up losing 2.8Bn betting on the price of shares of companies over which they did not have direct control.  I've said before I feel very sorry for Sean Quinn, but, he has brought this on himself and as for playing with fire, he's been throwing petrol on the fire imo.  Chasing losses, tilting, anyone who bets regularly knows these emotions and the importance on trying to keep a lid on them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dubh driocht on April 06, 2010, 09:23:44 PM
Have to say the John Mc Manus piece made it clear for me , a Quinns policy-holder.I recall Peter Quinn recently made a remark about liking someone but suggesting he didn't take enough risks for his liking.I think what he was saying was if it hadn't been for people like him ( PQ) then Croke Park would never have been built. Fair enough point but his brother's actions seem to have made a significant contribution to the mess that Ireland finds itself in, and while risk-taking is good, it should never be wreckless. Bingobus is bang on about our attitude to regulators.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2010, 09:51:36 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:57:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 06, 2010, 09:51:36 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.


They owe €2.8 billion to Anglo - 5,6,7 % interest plus capital would be say - €300m a year -

How much does Quinn non insurance related activities make / lose a year ??

In other words, is it the insurance company that is keeping the whole Quinn group going ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2010, 10:01:25 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:57:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 06, 2010, 09:51:36 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.


They owe €2.8 billion to Anglo - 5,6,7 % interest plus capital would be say - €300m a year -

How much does Quinn non insurance related activities make / lose a year ??

In other words, is it the insurance company that is keeping the whole Quinn group going ??

Hope not, or else we will have a levy in the next budget to pay for it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 10:15:18 PM
Again listening to Quinn employees on the radio tonight completely disregarding the fact that their boss played fast and loose with the rules. Kept going on about being profitable and yet ignored the fact that an insurance company is in business to pay claims. Being used and abused yet they can't see it.
As i said previously insurance side of the business is basically sound and the question remains how many jobs can be saved if it's taken over. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 10:23:04 PM
Quote from: Declan on April 06, 2010, 10:15:18 PM
Again listening to Quinn employees on the radio tonight completely disregarding the fact that their boss played fast and loose with the rules. Kept going on about being profitable and yet ignored the fact that an insurance company is in business to pay claims. Being used and abused yet they can't see it.
As i said previously insurance side of the business is basically sound and the question remains how many jobs can be saved if it's taken over.


Given that the business is sound, are / will the job losses be as a result of the decline in the UK business ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 10:26:22 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 06, 2010, 09:51:36 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.
The anglo loan is to the Quinn Family, but is secured on the assets of the Quinn Group afaik - small, but subtle difference. 

They don't have to transfer any money (I think) to shore up the problem with QI, just get the companies holding the guarantees over QI assets to release them, according to Quinn, this was only a matter of days away from happening, one wonders why Quinn allowed the situation to exist for so long then.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 10:27:44 PM
QuoteGiven that the business is sound, are / will the job losses be as a result of the decline in the UK business

From what I can gather if they can start to write business again in the UK then the jobs are more secure as the RoI business is seen as the sounder. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 10:30:22 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 10:23:04 PM
Quote from: Declan on April 06, 2010, 10:15:18 PM
Again listening to Quinn employees on the radio tonight completely disregarding the fact that their boss played fast and loose with the rules. Kept going on about being profitable and yet ignored the fact that an insurance company is in business to pay claims. Being used and abused yet they can't see it.
As i said previously insurance side of the business is basically sound and the question remains how many jobs can be saved if it's taken over.


Given that the business is sound, are / will the job losses be as a result of the decline in the UK business ?.
i think the worry over job losses is because employees have heard the talk that various facets of the business may change ownership - without quinn in charge he may relocate or the profitable parts of the group may no longer subsidise the less profitable sectors.  As I mentioned earlier there is a lot of speculation that some or all of the anglo loan may be swapped for stakes in the Quinn group.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 10:39:14 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 10:26:22 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 06, 2010, 09:51:36 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.
The anglo loan is to the Quinn Family, but is secured on the assets of the Quinn Group afaik - small, but subtle difference. 

They don't have to transfer any money (I think) to shore up the problem with QI, just get the companies holding the guarantees over QI assets to release them, according to Quinn, this was only a matter of days away from happening, one wonders why Quinn allowed the situation to exist for so long then.

Who are these companies who are holding the guarantees over QI assets ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 10:44:24 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 10:39:14 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 10:26:22 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 06, 2010, 09:51:36 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.
The anglo loan is to the Quinn Family, but is secured on the assets of the Quinn Group afaik - small, but subtle difference. 

They don't have to transfer any money (I think) to shore up the problem with QI, just get the companies holding the guarantees over QI assets to release them, according to Quinn, this was only a matter of days away from happening, one wonders why Quinn allowed the situation to exist for so long then.

Who are these companies who are holding the guarantees over QI assets ?.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0406/1224267745642.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 10:47:28 PM
Also a good article on the situation is here:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0402/1224267557231.html

QuoteTHE PROVISIONAL administrators of Quinn Insurance have received about 20 inquiries from groups interested in buying all or part of the company's business.

The expressions of interest came as Quinn Group increased its opposition to last Tuesday's appointment of the administrators by the Financial Regulator, raising questions about how the move will affect Quinn's ability to repay its debts to Anglo Irish Bank.

Liam McCaffrey, chief executive of the group, said Quinn Insurance was key to the Quinn family's ability to repay the €2.8 billion it owes to State-owned Anglo Irish. Mr McCaffrey said a "very robust" Quinn Insurance would have been needed for the debt to be repaid, "either through cashflow or disposal".
This was "made much more difficult through the action of Tuesday", he added.

Seán Quinn, the founder of the company, said last night the administration move was one of the worst decisions in Irish corporate history. He said it had placed the jobs of Quinn Group's 5,500 Irish employees in jeopardy.

Mr Quinn confirmed for the first time that his family had lost €3 billion in shares in the last three years. He said the media had thought it was about €1-1.5 billion. "Well I can tell them it was three," he said.

Mr Quinn said "we owe Anglo €2.8 billion", but "we had a plan to reduce that borrowing by €400 million in the next three years.''

Speaking to RTÉ news he said he was making "€400 million or €500 million a year profit, we had no problem in the world paying that back to them."

Meanwhile, the administrators Grant Thornton have told those interested in Quinn Insurance's assets, it is "premature" to consider a sale at this point.

"If we decide to sell all or any part of the business in the future, we shall contact you to ascertain whether you wish to participate in the sales process," they said.

The appointment was made on the back of regulatory concerns over Quinn Insurance's solvency, or the excess of its assets over its liabilities. The concerns arose after the regulator became aware of guarantees made by subsidiaries of Quinn Insurance regarding €1.2 billion in Quinn Group borrowings.

This debt is in addition to the monies the Quinn family owes.

Quinn argues these concerns are unfounded because there is no prospect of the group debt being called in by its lenders. "This could have been resolved given time, and not very much time," said Mr McCaffrey.

It has also emerged that Anglo Irish consulted Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan on the bank's plan to cut its "significant" exposure to the Quinn family.

Anglo chief executive Mike Aynsley wrote to Mr Quinn in February, saying he would discuss with Mr Lenihan, the bank's shareholder as Minister for Finance, a proposal by Mr Quinn to reduce his family's debts, according to a letter seen by The Irish Times .

Under the relationship agreement between the bank and the Minister, Anglo is run on a commercial basis at arm's length from the Government with the commercial relationship between Anglo and its customers left to the bank.

The Minister can, however, intervene to protect the public interest or ensure the bank is following the business plan that complies with the Minister's objectives.

Separately, The Irish Times has confirmed that Anglo's new management team has retained specialist forensic investigators to determine whether former senior managers have concealed or undeclared assets.

Meanwhile, some 300 Quinn staff yesterday protested outside the Dáil, calling on the Government to protect the company's jobs.

The administrator's appointment remains provisional until a further court hearing on April 12th. At that stage Quinn Insurance can oppose it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on April 07, 2010, 12:00:16 AM
From what I am hearing once the process ends Sean Quinn will literally only have the shirt on his back left.

If he's lucky!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: give her dixie on April 07, 2010, 12:41:40 AM
They were a couple of very good articles, and filled in a few spaces in my understanding of it all.
It looks like he is in big trouble all right, and unless the gaurantees are removed, the Insurance business is for sale.
It is a real pity as so many people will loose their jobs.

I just hope he can pull it all together and save the Group.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 07, 2010, 12:47:02 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on April 07, 2010, 12:00:16 AM
From what I am hearing once the process ends Sean Quinn will literally only have the shirt on his back left.
If he's lucky!


How come ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on April 07, 2010, 08:25:45 AM
QuoteHow come ??

Cos of them horrible bastards called personal guarantees

The Group owe over 2 billion to Anglo. Not cosy "come in for a chat Sean" Anglo but 2010 Anglo, not State owned and a CE who is as hard as slap of a hurl on a cold Sunday morning. Add a regenerated Financial Regulator to the mix and you get a situation for Sean Quinn that he cannot escape from.

Do the sums. He admitted losing 3 bn on Anglo plus the 2 bn now owed.........who among us has 5 bn to toss around? And this is before we think of the money he has lost in McInerney.

Quinn Group will survive as an entity........in some shape........but Sean Quinn nor the extended Quinn family may not have any say from now on.

Which is sad to see a man like Sean Quinn ruined over his own foolish exploits when before everything he touched turned to gold.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on April 07, 2010, 08:49:15 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on April 07, 2010, 08:25:45 AM


Do the sums. He admitted losing 3 bn on Anglo plus the 2 bn now owed.........who among us has 5 bn to toss around? And this is before we think of the money he has lost in McInerney.


Is the 2bn not part of the 3bn lost, I got that impression from the interview on rte. They were going to repay that at 400m per year.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on April 07, 2010, 08:53:15 AM
I indeed may be wrong Gerry but would Anglo have lent him his losses - before tapping the Golden 10 to prop up the share price.

If they did then I'm out of here. I still have a USA green card somewhere with a valid Social Security Number.




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 07, 2010, 09:33:53 AM
I know its all relative but can someone tell me, what can you not do with €750m that you can do with €3bn? Mind boggling numbers...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: JohnDenver on April 07, 2010, 09:36:21 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on April 07, 2010, 09:33:53 AM
I know its all relative but can someone tell me, what can you not do with €750m that you can do with €3bn? Mind boggling numbers...

You can't put on a €750m trixie with €750m!  :P
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 07, 2010, 09:43:20 AM
Does anyone have the figures for the Quinn group's turnover, profit and loss, total liabilities, reserves ??

Just to see what we're dealing with here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hereiam on April 07, 2010, 10:09:13 AM
Have had that problem with the cement alright. Not good for plastering. With regards to the insulation would have no problem using it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 07, 2010, 10:14:40 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8604293.stm

Quinn workers briefed on future

Quinn Insurance staff will be briefed on Wednesday on the future of the company, which is in administration. A group of politicians met the head of the Irish central bank, Patrick Honohan and the head of Financial Regulations, Matthew Elderfield on Tuesday. At the meeting politicians stressed the importance of the employment created by Quinn and the need to lift the ban on the company doing business in the UK. But regulator chief, Mr Elderfield said regulations were there for a reason. He successfully petitioned the High Court in Dublin last week to have Quinn Insurance put into administration for breaching solvency rules - in simple terms how much money was set aside to cover claims. The regulator said some of that money was being used as security for bank loans made to other parts of the Quinn Group.
The fear was if the banks called in their loans then policy-holders could be left in the lurch, though Quinn insisted there was no chance of that happening. During the meeting on Tuesday Mr Elderfield and the head of the central bank, Mr Honohan acknowledged the importance of the employment created by Quinn Insurance but said they were there to do a job. Afterwards the cross-party group of politicians met a a delegation of Quinn staff to update them on the talks. The Quinn delegation is due to brief the rest of the workforce later today. The workers want the Irish arm of the business to be taken out of administration. They also want the ban on writing UK business to be lifted. The employees said they fear for their jobs if the Irish Government does not take steps to safeguard the future of the company. The majority of the work at the Enniskillen base is the underwriting of UK insurance policies, putting 700 jobs in County Fermanagh at risk. If the ban is lifted, then the UK Regulator will also have to become involved. The next step for the company will now depend on the financial report on Quinn Insurance being prepared by the two High Court-appointed administrators. It is expected the report will be given to the Financial Regulator by the end of this week in advance of the High Court case in Dublin on 12 April. Meanwhile, a rally organised by the Cavan Chamber of Commerce is due to take place in the town centre at 1730 BST in support of the workers at Quinn Insurance.


The UK Regulator??  Things might get worse....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 07, 2010, 10:20:53 AM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 07, 2010, 10:14:40 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8604293.stm

Quinn workers briefed on future

Quinn Insurance staff will be briefed on Wednesday on the future of the company, which is in administration. A group of politicians met the head of the Irish central bank, Patrick Honohan and the head of Financial Regulations, Matthew Elderfield on Tuesday. At the meeting politicians stressed the importance of the employment created by Quinn and the need to lift the ban on the company doing business in the UK. But regulator chief, Mr Elderfield said regulations were there for a reason. He successfully petitioned the High Court in Dublin last week to have Quinn Insurance put into administration for breaching solvency rules - in simple terms how much money was set aside to cover claims. The regulator said some of that money was being used as security for bank loans made to other parts of the Quinn Group.
The fear was if the banks called in their loans then policy-holders could be left in the lurch, though Quinn insisted there was no chance of that happening. During the meeting on Tuesday Mr Elderfield and the head of the central bank, Mr Honohan acknowledged the importance of the employment created by Quinn Insurance but said they were there to do a job. Afterwards the cross-party group of politicians met a a delegation of Quinn staff to update them on the talks. The Quinn delegation is due to brief the rest of the workforce later today. The workers want the Irish arm of the business to be taken out of administration. They also want the ban on writing UK business to be lifted. The employees said they fear for their jobs if the Irish Government does not take steps to safeguard the future of the company. The majority of the work at the Enniskillen base is the underwriting of UK insurance policies, putting 700 jobs in County Fermanagh at risk. If the ban is lifted, then the UK Regulator will also have to become involved. The next step for the company will now depend on the financial report on Quinn Insurance being prepared by the two High Court-appointed administrators. It is expected the report will be given to the Financial Regulator by the end of this week in advance of the High Court case in Dublin on 12 April. Meanwhile, a rally organised by the Cavan Chamber of Commerce is due to take place in the town centre at 1730 BST in support of the workers at Quinn Insurance.


The UK Regulator??  Things might get worse....

I'm an optomist- I think the ban will be lifted.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 07, 2010, 10:29:14 AM
Quote from: orangeman on April 07, 2010, 10:20:53 AM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 07, 2010, 10:14:40 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8604293.stm

Quinn workers briefed on future

Quinn Insurance staff will be briefed on Wednesday on the future of the company, which is in administration. A group of politicians met the head of the Irish central bank, Patrick Honohan and the head of Financial Regulations, Matthew Elderfield on Tuesday. At the meeting politicians stressed the importance of the employment created by Quinn and the need to lift the ban on the company doing business in the UK. But regulator chief, Mr Elderfield said regulations were there for a reason. He successfully petitioned the High Court in Dublin last week to have Quinn Insurance put into administration for breaching solvency rules - in simple terms how much money was set aside to cover claims. The regulator said some of that money was being used as security for bank loans made to other parts of the Quinn Group.
The fear was if the banks called in their loans then policy-holders could be left in the lurch, though Quinn insisted there was no chance of that happening. During the meeting on Tuesday Mr Elderfield and the head of the central bank, Mr Honohan acknowledged the importance of the employment created by Quinn Insurance but said they were there to do a job. Afterwards the cross-party group of politicians met a a delegation of Quinn staff to update them on the talks. The Quinn delegation is due to brief the rest of the workforce later today. The workers want the Irish arm of the business to be taken out of administration. They also want the ban on writing UK business to be lifted. The employees said they fear for their jobs if the Irish Government does not take steps to safeguard the future of the company. The majority of the work at the Enniskillen base is the underwriting of UK insurance policies, putting 700 jobs in County Fermanagh at risk. If the ban is lifted, then the UK Regulator will also have to become involved. The next step for the company will now depend on the financial report on Quinn Insurance being prepared by the two High Court-appointed administrators. It is expected the report will be given to the Financial Regulator by the end of this week in advance of the High Court case in Dublin on 12 April. Meanwhile, a rally organised by the Cavan Chamber of Commerce is due to take place in the town centre at 1730 BST in support of the workers at Quinn Insurance.


The UK Regulator??  Things might get worse....

I'm an optomist- I think the ban will be lifted.

You might be right orangeman...but "light touch" regulation is not in vogue in London at the moment!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 07, 2010, 10:40:56 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 07, 2010, 10:01:43 AM
There appears to be a problem with the Quinn products.  I have just completed a small building project at home and I was surprised at the atitude of tradesmen to key Quinn products.  My builder said he was happy to buy Quinn cement for basic block building but refused to use it for plastering because it was too difficult to work with and he ordered Blue Circle/Lafarge cement.  When it came to insulation he insisted on using Kingspan for the roof, ceiling boards and underfloor insulation but put Quinntherm in the wall cavities.  The plumber refused to use Quinn radiators because he claimed they were inferior to Myson and dispite not having the height required which Quinn had(24 inch) he rejected Quinn radiators in favour of lower but wider Myson rads.  The building boom which has fallen to 3% of its peak level in the Republic what effect has this had on the cement, insulation and radiators businesses?  Given the attitude at tradesman level, were these products aimed at low cost low quality building that fuelled the Celtic tiger bubble?  Anyone out there in the building trade have any experience of this attitude towards Quinn products?

In lauding the QI business, it appears that the practice of trying to force through settlement of claims has been forgotten.  The country is full of stories where the QI rep appears as soon as a claim is lodged to try and get an immediate settlement of the claim without recourse to legal advice.

And what is the problem with that TYP? It stopped Solicitors getting their fees and helped drive down the prices of Insurance. And has been a tactic that other insurance companies have taken on board to lower costs. It was never a case of forcing things through, in effect they helped to stop the need for a solicitor. Hardly a problem in my eyes unless your a solicitor. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 07, 2010, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 07, 2010, 10:40:56 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 07, 2010, 10:01:43 AM
There appears to be a problem with the Quinn products.  I have just completed a small building project at home and I was surprised at the atitude of tradesmen to key Quinn products.  My builder said he was happy to buy Quinn cement for basic block building but refused to use it for plastering because it was too difficult to work with and he ordered Blue Circle/Lafarge cement.  When it came to insulation he insisted on using Kingspan for the roof, ceiling boards and underfloor insulation but put Quinntherm in the wall cavities.  The plumber refused to use Quinn radiators because he claimed they were inferior to Myson and dispite not having the height required which Quinn had(24 inch) he rejected Quinn radiators in favour of lower but wider Myson rads.  The building boom which has fallen to 3% of its peak level in the Republic what effect has this had on the cement, insulation and radiators businesses?  Given the attitude at tradesman level, were these products aimed at low cost low quality building that fuelled the Celtic tiger bubble?  Anyone out there in the building trade have any experience of this attitude towards Quinn products?

In lauding the QI business, it appears that the practice of trying to force through settlement of claims has been forgotten.  The country is full of stories where the QI rep appears as soon as a claim is lodged to try and get an immediate settlement of the claim without recourse to legal advice.

And what is the problem with that TYP? It stopped Solicitors getting their fees and helped drive down the prices of Insurance. And has been a tactic that other insurance companies have taken on board to lower costs. It was never a case of forcing things through, in effect they helped to stop the need for a solicitor. Hardly a problem in my eyes unless your a solicitor.

Could be a problem if your claim is worth much more than QI offer you??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 07, 2010, 10:48:13 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on April 07, 2010, 08:25:45 AM
QuoteHow come ??

Cos of them horrible b**tards called personal guarantees

The Group owe over 2 billion to Anglo. Not cosy "come in for a chat Sean" Anglo but 2010 Anglo, not State owned and a CE who is as hard as slap of a hurl on a cold Sunday morning. Add a regenerated Financial Regulator to the mix and you get a situation for Sean Quinn that he cannot escape from.

Do the sums. He admitted losing 3 bn on Anglo plus the 2 bn now owed.........who among us has 5 bn to toss around? And this is before we think of the money he has lost in McInerney.

Quinn Group will survive as an entity........in some shape........but Sean Quinn nor the extended Quinn family may not have any say from now on.

Which is sad to see a man like Sean Quinn ruined over his own foolish exploits when before everything he touched turned to gold.
the family owe 2.8 bn to anglo, the group owes 1.2 bn, but not sure to who.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 07, 2010, 10:51:10 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on April 07, 2010, 08:53:15 AM
I indeed may be wrong Gerry but would Anglo have lent him his losses - before tapping the Golden 10 to prop up the share price.

If they did then I'm out of here. I still have a USA green card somewhere with a valid Social Security Number.
better get searching then :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on April 07, 2010, 10:51:50 AM
Agreed supersarsfields, you don't have to accept the offer from the rep if you don't want to.

My brother in law acts as counsel for quite a lot of QI insurance cases in the north - there's plenty that still go to court.

I'm surprised the UK regulator is not already involved - insurance underwriters have to submit regular (quarterly I think) returns to the FSA in the UK, and they should have shown up an excess of liabilities in the UK business if it is under water.  So it appears that there are lots of legal complexities that we can only guess at, particularly as the ROI regulator appeared to have the authority to stop QI taking on business in the UK.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 07, 2010, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 07, 2010, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 07, 2010, 10:40:56 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 07, 2010, 10:01:43 AM
There appears to be a problem with the Quinn products.  I have just completed a small building project at home and I was surprised at the atitude of tradesmen to key Quinn products.  My builder said he was happy to buy Quinn cement for basic block building but refused to use it for plastering because it was too difficult to work with and he ordered Blue Circle/Lafarge cement.  When it came to insulation he insisted on using Kingspan for the roof, ceiling boards and underfloor insulation but put Quinntherm in the wall cavities.  The plumber refused to use Quinn radiators because he claimed they were inferior to Myson and dispite not having the height required which Quinn had(24 inch) he rejected Quinn radiators in favour of lower but wider Myson rads.  The building boom which has fallen to 3% of its peak level in the Republic what effect has this had on the cement, insulation and radiators businesses?  Given the attitude at tradesman level, were these products aimed at low cost low quality building that fuelled the Celtic tiger bubble?  Anyone out there in the building trade have any experience of this attitude towards Quinn products?

In lauding the QI business, it appears that the practice of trying to force through settlement of claims has been forgotten.  The country is full of stories where the QI rep appears as soon as a claim is lodged to try and get an immediate settlement of the claim without recourse to legal advice.

And what is the problem with that TYP? It stopped Solicitors getting their fees and helped drive down the prices of Insurance. And has been a tactic that other insurance companies have taken on board to lower costs. It was never a case of forcing things through, in effect they helped to stop the need for a solicitor. Hardly a problem in my eyes unless your a solicitor.

Could be a problem if your claim is worth much more than QI offer you??

Then you don't accept and then go to a SOT. QD can't stop you going to a SOT. It only works when both parties are agreed. Saves the need for paying legal fees when not required. A main reason why this has been taken on board by other insurance companies.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 07, 2010, 10:55:43 AM
Claims are like a milking machine for solicitors and their network of experts.


That's why Quinn quite sensibly try and settle without the need for legal teams.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 11:13:18 AM
Quote from: Rois on April 07, 2010, 10:51:50 AM
I'm surprised the UK regulator is not already involved - insurance underwriters have to submit regular (quarterly I think) returns to the FSA in the UK, and they should have shown up an excess of liabilities in the UK business if it is under water. 

I dont understand this either, particularly with the attention that the whole situation now has gathered. Surely the UK regulator will have been looking very closely at Quinn group - I know they're headquartered in the south, but being involved in the Uk insurance business is bound to mean that had they felt there was a risk they would also have taken action. Given that they didnt/havent, it can only be assumed that they dont see the problems the southern regulators do. And I know which regulator I'd place more faith in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 07, 2010, 11:34:45 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 11:13:18 AM
Quote from: Rois on April 07, 2010, 10:51:50 AM
I'm surprised the UK regulator is not already involved - insurance underwriters have to submit regular (quarterly I think) returns to the FSA in the UK, and they should have shown up an excess of liabilities in the UK business if it is under water. 

I dont understand this either, particularly with the attention that the whole situation now has gathered. Surely the UK regulator will have been looking very closely at Quinn group - I know they're headquartered in the south, but being involved in the Uk insurance business is bound to mean that had they felt there was a risk they would also have taken action. Given that they didnt/havent, it can only be assumed that they dont see the problems the southern regulators do. And I know which regulator I'd place more faith in.

Despite the jingoism, ironically I believe he is actually British.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 12:07:33 PM
Who?

The financial regulator? It isn't a person...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 07, 2010, 01:48:43 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 12:07:33 PM
Who?

The financial regulator? It isn't a person...

(http://www.businessandleadership.com/fs/img/news/200910/378x/elderfield.jpg)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 03:20:34 PM
No Sammy: thats like putting up a picture of the pope when asked what is the catholic church.

Hes the head of regulation, the financial regulator is a body, not, as I said, a person.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 07, 2010, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 03:20:34 PM
No Sammy: thats like putting up a picture of the pope when asked what is the catholic church.

Hes the head of regulation, the financial regulator is a body, not, as I said, a person.

Every country has it's own autonomous financial regulator. You strongly suggested you'd prefer the British one over the Irish one. You don't get that choice with the Catholic Church.

If Patrick Neary is the personification of the poor regulation of the past, this guy personifies the new regulation. And he is British so you will like him.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2010, 05:00:25 PM
He looks very sober. Especially with the tie and the haircut. He doesn't look like the kind of fella who would pump €3bn into Anglo Irish Bank.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on April 08, 2010, 12:05:44 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 07, 2010, 08:27:26 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 07, 2010, 10:40:56 AM

In lauding the QI business, it appears that the practice of trying to force through settlement of claims has been forgotten.  The country is full of stories where the QI rep appears as soon as a claim is lodged to try and get an immediate settlement of the claim without recourse to legal advice.

And what is the problem with that TYP? It stopped Solicitors getting their fees and helped drive down the prices of Insurance. And has been a tactic that other insurance companies have taken on board to lower costs. It was never a case of forcing things through, in effect they helped to stop the need for a solicitor. Hardly a problem in my eyes unless your a solicitor.

It's OK except when it is reported that it is pressurised settlement by starting to write a cheque on the doorstep and the weakest targets are chosen, e.g. elderly and those in financial difficulties.  They have also turned up at inappropriate times, i.e. appearing for a settlement so soon after an accident when the injured are critical in hospital or where there have been fatalities.

I have no problem with cutting out lawyers when they are not needed but too often people are unaware of their full rights, e.g. up to two years wait to see if injuries develop into something more serious or long lasting.
[/quote]

Well put TYP. . . the Ryanair of the Insurance World! I do fear for the jobs that will go but some of Quinn's business practices are cut throat to say the least.

They have a dedicated team set up to get out of claims over the slightest loophole they can find. They have also stolen valued customers from Brokers through the Quinn Direct arm having offered their services as Quinn Insurance previously.

As I said 700 jobs would be a huge loss and I hope it doesn't come to that. However Quinn do need a rap on the knuckles to get their affairs in order and hopefully this will show them the error of their ways!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 08, 2010, 08:43:29 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 08, 2010, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2010, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 03:20:34 PM
No Sammy: thats like putting up a picture of the pope when asked what is the catholic church.

Hes the head of regulation, the financial regulator is a body, not, as I said, a person.

Every country has it's own autonomous financial regulator. You strongly suggested you'd prefer the British one over the Irish one. You don't get that choice with the Catholic Church.

If Patrick Neary is the personification of the poor regulation of the past, this guy personifies the new regulation. And he is British so you will like him.

Good man.

The incompetence of the southern regulator has been well documented in the past. The fact that there is someone different at the helm is unlikely to have sorted it out in its entirety. I said I knew which one I'd rather place faith in in a clear reference to their records rather than their nationality. But dont you waste a chance to bring the debate down to a level you feel comfortable on.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 09:23:30 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 08, 2010, 08:43:29 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyrone girl on April 08, 2010, 09:30:29 AM
But Qd always have the solicitors costs when dealing with the accident management companies. When first notified of the claim they act really quick and sort the thing asap but always ask for our costs quickly sent through to them and settle them immediately.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on April 08, 2010, 09:54:36 AM
Nail on the head Scud, although its easy to understand that people are only concerned about their jobs, and Cowen's Government  cannot afford to be blamed for the loss of thousands of jobs. No great affection for Mr Quinn but I hope that the jobs are preserved and this Company's operations scrutinised minutely at every turn in the future.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 08, 2010, 10:08:53 AM
I live in Fermanagh and my natural sympathies lie with the employees.  From talking to a few people I think the greatest emotion is still shock as 99% of them had no idea anything was wrong.

However they are somewhat blinded by shock and now anger.  They still believe that the fault here lies squarely at the door of the Regulator.  The situation is not the Regulator's fault. 

With the English Grand National coming up on Saturday, many of us will have a small bet and most of us will lose.  Sean Quinn and his children took a massive bet and their horse lost...the only difference is that they still have to pay the bookie their stake money.  That is at the heart of any problems in the Quinn Group.

I think Quinn (and his employees) should take a less confrontational approach and work in a quieter fashion with the administrators with a view to getting the company out of administration (if that is possible)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 10:45:58 AM
Quote from: screenexile on April 08, 2010, 12:05:44 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 07, 2010, 08:27:26 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 07, 2010, 10:40:56 AM

In lauding the QI business, it appears that the practice of trying to force through settlement of claims has been forgotten.  The country is full of stories where the QI rep appears as soon as a claim is lodged to try and get an immediate settlement of the claim without recourse to legal advice.

And what is the problem with that TYP? It stopped Solicitors getting their fees and helped drive down the prices of Insurance. And has been a tactic that other insurance companies have taken on board to lower costs. It was never a case of forcing things through, in effect they helped to stop the need for a solicitor. Hardly a problem in my eyes unless your a solicitor.

It's OK except when it is reported that it is pressurised settlement by starting to write a cheque on the doorstep and the weakest targets are chosen, e.g. elderly and those in financial difficulties.  They have also turned up at inappropriate times, i.e. appearing for a settlement so soon after an accident when the injured are critical in hospital or where there have been fatalities.

I have no problem with cutting out lawyers when they are not needed but too often people are unaware of their full rights, e.g. up to two years wait to see if injuries develop into something more serious or long lasting.

Well put TYP. . . the Ryanair of the Insurance World! I do fear for the jobs that will go but some of Quinn's business practices are cut throat to say the least.

They have a dedicated team set up to get out of claims over the slightest loophole they can find. They have also stolen valued customers from Brokers through the Quinn Direct arm having offered their services as Quinn Insurance previously.

As I said 700 jobs would be a huge loss and I hope it doesn't come to that. However Quinn do need a rap on the knuckles to get their affairs in order and hopefully this will show them the error of their ways!
[/quote]

Sorry I don't agree with any of that. There was a couple of claims were people reported about feeling harassed. Minor enough numbers considering the amount of claims that are settled. Also do you think there aren't harassment claims from other insurance companies and indeed these solicitors who chase the client aswell? If you do, your living in a bubble.
Comparing QI to Ryanair isn't that big of a crime. Considering RA's biggest fault was in care for it's workers which definitely isn't the case for QI. Hardly a massive insult.
And all insurance companies look at indemnity issues to see if their liable, hardly loop holes. There's not one insurance company that doesn't so that's a big of a strange point to make.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 10:49:06 AM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 09:23:30 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 08, 2010, 08:43:29 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....

I think you'll find the protests have nothing to do with SQ. The idea and organisation of the protests was all taken on board solely by employees. Hardly surprising consideing what they face.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 11:09:38 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 10:49:06 AM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 09:23:30 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 08, 2010, 08:43:29 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....

I think you'll find the protests have nothing to do with SQ. The idea and organisation of the protests was all taken on board solely by employees. Hardly surprising consideing what they face.

C'mon, are you serious? Its fairly obvious that that is simply not the case.

As I see it, even if Quinn remains in control most of them will have their pay frozen for another year and many will see further cuts on bonuses that make up a significant portion of their salary. We'll see if any protests are allowed then.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 08, 2010, 11:19:35 AM
Anglo's Quinn restructure plan fails to sway regulator
SIMON CARSWELL, HARRY McGEE and MARY MINIHAN

Thu, Apr 08, 2010

The Financial Regulator has responded coolly to a proposal from State-owned Anglo Irish Bank to take control of Seán Quinn's business and restructure its struggling insurer in a bid to secure repayment of €2.8 billion owed by the Quinn family.

The regulator met senior Anglo executives privately on Tuesday to discuss the bank's proposal, which was devised by the new management team at the bank. However, it is understood that the regulator is intent on progressing with its court application next Monday to confirm the appointment of administrators.

Among the proposals suggested by Anglo was that the Quinn Group be taken over by the State-owned bank, that Quinn Insurance be put on a sound financial footing with support from the bank and be eventually sold for a higher price than it would in the short term.

The bank has suggested the proposal as an alternative to the full administration of Quinn Insurance which lenders to the Quinn Group and family fear could lead to a default on loans of €4 billion.

Anglo's shareholder, Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan, is understood to have instructed the bank to devise the best solution for the group that could recover the most amount of money for the State-owned bank.

Any alternative must not only restore the insurer's solvency to the regulator's minimum level but also address concerns about how the insurance firm was being managed.

Anglo's proposals could see Mr Quinn lose control of the group he founded 37 year ago. He is understood to be open to an alternative that would avoid administration.

The bank has sought time to find a solution agreed by all the parties, including all the lenders to the group, and could achieve this if the regulator extends the provisional administration of Quinn Insurance by 30 days.

Anglo is also believed to be pressing for the regulator to allow Quinn Insurance to re-open for business in Britain and Northern Ireland. Last week the regulator ordered the insurer to stop writing business in the UK to prevent further losses.

A delegation of TDs and Senators from the Border region met Mr Lenihan last night in Dublin to express concern about the implications the appointment of the administrators may have for the 5,500 jobs in group.

The delegation included Minister for Agriculture Brendan Smith, a TD for Cavan-Monaghan. A statement issued on behalf of the Minister noted that the meeting had been constructive and also emphasised the independent nature of the regulator's role. It also disclosed publicly the role that Anglo is now taking in discussions on the group's future.

Speaking afterwards, Mr Smith said, "we're not privy to the data that the Quinn company were putting together for assessment by the joint provisional administrators".

The two court-appointed provisional administrators, Michael McAteer and Paul McCann of Grant Thornton, are preparing a report on Quinn Insurance which will be given to the regulator today ahead of the High Court hearing next week.

The Quinn Group disclosed yesterday that the Quinn family owed Anglo €2.8 billion, primarily due to losses on share investments of about €3 billion outside the group, most of which were incurred on Anglo.

The group said the guarantees provided by the insurer's subsidiaries to its bondholders and other lenders – which led to the regulator's court action – could be withdrawn and solvency could be restored to the insurer with a further €100 million in additional borrowings.

Mr Quinn conceded that the regulator was "technically right" to take his action but said he should have met directors before putting the company into provisional administration.

The Quinn family loans fall outside the National Assets Management Agency so any losses on these loans will be in addition to those incurred by Anglo on the loans the bank transfers to the State agency.

© 2010 irishtimes.com


SQ changing his tune a little??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 08, 2010, 11:29:16 AM
Big change of tune it would appear.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 11:40:19 AM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 11:09:38 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 10:49:06 AM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 09:23:30 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 08, 2010, 08:43:29 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....

I think you'll find the protests have nothing to do with SQ. The idea and organisation of the protests was all taken on board solely by employees. Hardly surprising consideing what they face.

C'mon, are you serious? Its fairly obvious that that is simply not the case.

As I see it, even if Quinn remains in control most of them will have their pay frozen for another year and many will see further cuts on bonuses that make up a significant portion of their salary. We'll see if any protests are allowed then.

Serious? Yeah cause I know for a fact.

Most bonuses had been stopped already, and most employees understand why considering the economy. The loyalty might be something to do with the fact that despite the massive drop in business and profits QG has had they haven't laid any of.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 12:41:24 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 08, 2010, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: muppet on April 07, 2010, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 03:20:34 PM
No Sammy: thats like putting up a picture of the pope when asked what is the catholic church.

Hes the head of regulation, the financial regulator is a body, not, as I said, a person.

Every country has it's own autonomous financial regulator. You strongly suggested you'd prefer the British one over the Irish one. You don't get that choice with the Catholic Church.

If Patrick Neary is the personification of the poor regulation of the past, this guy personifies the new regulation. And he is British so you will like him.

Good man.

The incompetence of the southern regulator has been well documented in the past. The fact that there is someone different at the helm is unlikely to have sorted it out in its entirety. I said I knew which one I'd rather place faith in in a clear reference to their records rather than their nationality. But dont you waste a chance to bring the debate down to a level you feel comfortable on.

Good man yourself. You are the one who introduced the UK/'South' comparison and you are the one who nailed your colours to that particular mast. When I point that out you accuse me of bringing it down a level. Grow up ffs.

Quinn is in the shit because of his gambling not because of any institution in the 'South' that you obviously hate so much.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 01:27:38 PM
It's very interesting that Quinn didn't tolerate unions and is now manipulating the staff to do his marching bidding.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 08, 2010, 01:42:38 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 08, 2010, 01:45:30 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 08, 2010, 01:42:38 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.


I'm not getting this.

Is it not a case of getting another 200/300 million to bring the ratio back up again to the recommended level ?

Going forward, new business will be curtailed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 01:48:33 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 11:40:19 AM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 11:09:38 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 10:49:06 AM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 09:23:30 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 08, 2010, 08:43:29 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....

I think you'll find the protests have nothing to do with SQ. The idea and organisation of the protests was all taken on board solely by employees. Hardly surprising consideing what they face.

C'mon, are you serious? Its fairly obvious that that is simply not the case.

As I see it, even if Quinn remains in control most of them will have their pay frozen for another year and many will see further cuts on bonuses that make up a significant portion of their salary. We'll see if any protests are allowed then.

Serious? Yeah cause I know for a fact.

Most bonuses had been stopped already, and most employees understand why considering the economy. The loyalty might be something to do with the fact that despite the massive drop in business and profits QG has had they haven't laid any of.

If that is the case why has SQ been trumpeting about how the company has been making €3-400m despite the recession, down from €500m pre-recession? I read somewhere that the Quinn children received €200m from the Group last year, a year where ordinary workers' pay was frozen and bonuses slashed.

Workers are told pay must be cut because of 'hard times'. The regulator and banks are told despite the 'hard times' the group remains highly profitable. Which is right?

I don't want this to be a witch hunt, because the man has done a lot of good for the area but he cannot be portrayed as some sort of angel, or a messiah laying himself at the altar of the regulator to protect his workers. Bull. The man is a cut throat businessman and in this instance he seems more than willing to manipulate workers to protect his interests.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 01:52:35 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 08, 2010, 01:42:38 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

So the 'Southern' regulator is 'technically correct' then?

I never used the word 'nationalist either'. Again you clearly indicated that you would prefer the British regulator to the 'southern' one. You took offense when I pointed out that the 'southern' regulator is in fact British. I should have said he was the Head of Financial Regulation which of course is the same thing.

Either way, handing Irish sovereign jurisdiction over to the British is not going to happen no matter how important the gambler is.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 08, 2010, 01:55:49 PM
Article from Ivan Yates who is hardly a radical:

It's time we pleaded inability to pay for dead banks and risky businesses
By Ivan Yates
Thursday, April 08, 2010

THE implosion of our financial services sector just keeps giving more trauma and we have been constantly misled with only partial, minimalist, optimistic instalments of information. This has led the state to take ownership of virtually the entire indigenous banking sector and its liabilities.

The next generation of taxpayers have already had their future mortgaged by these commitments. The elastic is set to snap. The state's comfort blanket cannot underwrite this meltdown.


The Government then sent in PriceWaterhouseCoopers to assess future Anglo losses, estimated to be €2.75bn over three years. The bank was nationalised in January without the full horror being revealed. Last summer we were assured the €3.8bn state recapitalisation would go a long way towards fixing the bank.

Last week we invented a new term, "promissory notes". This facilitates €8.3bn of our money being paid by 10 postdated annual cheques of €830m over the next decade. We are still not being told the whole truth. Brian Lenihan says a further €10bn may be needed to cover the losses on the loans that do not qualify for NAMA. We have no visibility on these portfolios. It could be a further €20bn is required. Total losses of €30bn may emerge from Anglo's loan book of €72bn.

The past modus operandi of Anglo is now emerging. It was loan growth at all costs. The pedal was jammed on another billion of loan approvals. They were the bank that said "yes". Their banking model, risk analysis and legal securities on collateral were unsustainable. The debris of bad debt collection is falling apart and we're left to pick up the pieces.

This bank must be wound down in an orderly fashion. The new board and management of Alan Dukes and Mike Aynsley have a narrow fiduciary responsibility just to Anglo. The Government has to have a wider perspective. In politics and business there comes a point of "force majeure". We didn't know what we were getting into when we nationalised Anglo. The ethics of management were non-existent. The board failed to exercise any standard of corporate governance. Anglo directors were granted loans of €155m, of which €109m is now assessed to be non-collectable. The regulator was hopelessly inadequate. Auditors and other external experts didn't grasp the enormity of the losses. The sum total of this disaster is being underwritten with Irish sovereign debt, on which we definitely can't default. It's time to start disengaging by negotiating with both subordinate and senior bondholders. Let's hope for a miracle – EU Commissioner Joaquín Almunia prohibits this level of state aid – giving us a get-out-of-jail card.

The Anglo cancer spread into the wider economy. The Dublin Docklands Development Authority (DDDA) came under their spell. This body is now insolvent, with losses of up to €500m. The usual symptoms: greed, conflicts of interest and a flagrant disregard for corporate governance. The casino approach to commerce was endemic. The latest instalment is the placement of Quinn Insurance Ltd (QIL) into court-appointed provisional administration. The links between Anglo and Quinn represent two sides of the one coin. We have now reached the most dangerous point of discovery and resolution.

Seán Quinn and the Quinn Group have operated with the utmost secrecy. This was represented as personal modesty on behalf of Ireland's richest man – a shy, retiring, self-effacing entrepreneur with the most humble of origins.

It's time for us to get a grip on reality. This secrecy was a blatant tactic of concealment. The building up of Quinn's stake in Anglo was done in the most furtive manner of "contracts for difference". Even Anglo management didn't know their largest single borrower, at €2.8bn, controlled up to a 28% stake in the bank. This had to be unwound, with devastating consequences. Apparently Sean Fitzpatrick blames Quinn for the demise of Anglo.

Weekend speculation suggests Anglo has weaker security on its outstanding loans to the Quinn Group than other lenders and bondholders, out of total debts of €4bn. The prospect emerges that Anglo may now acquire the Quinn Group in a debt for equity swap.

Have we completely lost our marbles? Not satisfied with nationalising the banks and the property market through NAMA, some are seriously considering nationalising our second largest insurer. This is insanity. Matthew Elderfields' intervention in QIL is in essence a battle between QIL and the Quinn Group. We should not be a party to ensuring Quinn can dilute insurance solvency principles in order to retain his empire.

QIL is the cash cow of the Quinn Group. It accounts for €1bn or 50% of their annual revenue. Insurance is a cash flow-rich business. You receive the premium income up front, pour the money into assets and await claims. Seán Quinn admits he lost €3bn in share investment speculation, including Anglo and McInerney. Other assets in the group in construction and hotels have been impaired. The financial regulator is seeking to protect Quinn Direct, Quinn Healthcare, its policyholders and claimants. The 40% solvency ratio is being compromised by demands for guarantees on assets by other parts of the Quinn Group.

AND this conflict of control of QIL, thereby preserving the Quinn Group as a whole, is at the heart of next Monday's High Court hearing. The bailout of US insurance giant AIG cost $182bn. Quinn is furiously lobbying ministers to lean on the regulator and broker a deal. This seems to imply the regulator's office was previously a political puppet. Corporate deceit was commonplace. We have no obligations to these chancers. The courts and administrators should be allowed to act independent of any political interference.

Last week's recapitalisation of AIB and Bank of Ireland (BoI) may transpire to be unduly optimistic. BoI is set to raise €2.7bn privately. The NAMA bad loan transfers were reduced from €16bn to €12bn. The bank will have to nurse these loans. It seems bad debt provision is being minimised to avert state majority share holding. They may be back in several months for more state cash and resultant nationalisation.

AIB may have overvalued its Polish and American bank assets resulting in a further state cash call. Non-NAMA losses in Nationwide and EBS still may be underestimated. Any spare state finance will need to be kept for genuinely systemic banks. We cannot preclude another round of recapitalisation. The woes of Anglo, DDDA, Quinn Group and Nationwide are primarily about facing up to insolvency. The Government has offered unlimited protection to underwrite these liabilities. This emperor has no clothes. It's now time to change course. We have reached the point where the solvency of the sovereign state is in jeopardy. We must plead inability to pay. The cure is worse than the disease. The "least worst" option is to allow market forces to prevail.


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/ivan-yates/its-time-we-pleaded-inability-to-pay-for-dead-banks-and-risky-businesses-116660.html#ixzz0kVqhr7FS
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 01:58:32 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 08, 2010, 01:42:38 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 02:09:43 PM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 01:58:32 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 08, 2010, 01:42:38 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.

Not many are.

The Yates article above has some very interesting points not least Quinn's lobbying of the politicians to influence the regulator. It seems our political scumbags will probably be the root cause of everything which of course explains Lenny's reluctance to investigate what happened.

Now what colour shirts should we march in when we are on Kildare street?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 08, 2010, 02:49:09 PM
dont know if it was mentioned on here already but did anyone hear vincent browne interviewed on radio tues/wed evening on the radio (newstalk I think).
he was going balistic over us paying to bail out the banks, yet the banks would shaft any lender who similarly defaulted on being able to pay out on their financial mistakes !
fantastic to listen to (if not somewhat maddening).
I usually think vincent is a daft oul trout, but he was spot on here.
We should not be taking this lying down as vincent said we are doing as a country.
maybe as a sop to the workers, in lieu of bailing the banks out, each person of working age should get €100,000 !! (my opinion not something vincent said)
anyhow
What colour shirts do we wear when marching on kildare st ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 02:49:37 PM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 01:58:32 PM

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.
[/quote]

That's neoliberal trade union management from Sean Quinn . There was no need for trade unions under Sean since he was like the good shepherd except that he subsequently gambled the flock on Anglo Irish. He reminds me of a tribal chieftain. Of course they love him in Fermanagh. He's the reincarnation of the the Maguire of Fermanagh.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 03:01:58 PM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 01:58:32 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 08, 2010, 01:42:38 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.

That's your choice. But I might know a wee bit more than others on here and I can garanttee you that this is the case. SQ nor any of the Quinns have been involved in any of the protests either organising or otherwise. Have you not noticed that most of the protests have been about saving the jobs rather than saving SQ.

Your right that there has been no history of unions within QG. That's hardly surprising considering he has been one of the best employers in the Ireland and that's including work practices. AFAI there has never been any issues between QG and the employees. Yet your trying to but a negative spin on that??

Buses were booked by the Social club which is run completely independent from QG and is run by the employees. Is it really that hard top believe people are protesting about losing their jobs?

Of course everyone is allow time of work. It was unpaid leave and considering 70% of QD are doing nothing it's hardly surprising.

Workers are told pay must be cut because of 'hard times'. The regulator and banks are told despite the 'hard times' the group remains highly profitable. Which is right?

I don't want this to be a witch hunt, because the man has done a lot of good for the area but he cannot be portrayed as some sort of angel, or a messiah laying himself at the altar of the regulator to protect his workers. Bull. The man is a cut throat businessman and in this instance he seems more than willing to manipulate workers to protect his interests.


Pay wasn't cut. Bonuses were and not throughout the group either. And the businesses are profitable just not as profitable as before the recession.
Would you have preferred job cuts to keep the bonuses?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 03:14:20 PM
The argument about the business being profitable is a non sequitur. If the company is insolvent it's much easier to make money. There's no need to invest premiums in conservative  assets. QIL lost 44m in dear old Blighty last year. That's not profitable AFAIK.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 03:30:13 PM
Have to say I never heard that figure before. ( Not doubting it, just hard to keep track of all the figures) But the problem with international insurance companies is that they'll be affected by different solvency rates. I think IIRC that Ireland works of a 150% rate for insurance companies. But the UK and alot of europe work of a 100% rate. And while QI maintained a ratio of over 100% ( I think it was close to 120%) It fell below the Irish requirement of 150%. And I think this is were the "technically" term has come from. As the regulator was correct he had fallen below the 150 rate but not so much so that it would cause an effect on the company.

Again I'm not 100% on all the numbers as there's been that many thrown around in all the papers that it all gets a bit confusing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 03:54:09 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 03:01:58 PM

That's your choice. But I might know a wee bit more than others on here and I can garanttee you that this is the case. SQ nor any of the Quinns have been involved in any of the protests either organising or otherwise. Have you not noticed that most of the protests have been about saving the jobs rather than saving SQ.

Your right that there has been no history of unions within QG. That's hardly surprising considering he has been one of the best employers in the Ireland and that's including work practices. AFAI there has never been any issues between QG and the employees. Yet your trying to but a negative spin on that??

Buses were booked by the Social club which is run completely independent from QG and is run by the employees. Is it really that hard top believe people are protesting about losing their jobs?

Of course everyone is allow time of work. It was unpaid leave and considering 70% of QD are doing nothing it's hardly surprising.

Workers are told pay must be cut because of 'hard times'. The regulator and banks are told despite the 'hard times' the group remains highly profitable. Which is right?

I don't want this to be a witch hunt, because the man has done a lot of good for the area but he cannot be portrayed as some sort of angel, or a messiah laying himself at the altar of the regulator to protect his workers. Bull. The man is a cut throat businessman and in this instance he seems more than willing to manipulate workers to protect his interests.


Pay wasn't cut. Bonuses were and not throughout the group either. And the businesses are profitable just not as profitable as before the recession.
Would you have preferred job cuts to keep the bonuses?

A pay freeze is in effect a pay cut when you take inflation into account. And how much are bonuses costing QG? If we take the 5,500 employee figure at an average wage of say £20k and a bonus of 20%. £4k bonus per worker = £22mil, hardly big money to a group still making £300m and certainly not a figure which would costs jobs when the group was able to absorb an €800m loss in 2008.

Admittedly second hand, but I know of many workplace practices throughout the Group that would not be tolerated were it not for the fact that he's the only show in town in these parts. For many its a job with Quinn or move away, making them afraid to rock the boat.

That protests are against the regulator's decision, 'save our jobs' is the slogan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 04:09:16 PM
Well all I know is from speaking to a large amount of workers that are employed with the QG and none seem to have had any complaints. Not sure what issues you have heard in regards to this but there's been none that i am aware of. And considering the volume he employs that's quite surprising in itself.
The slogan is indeed "save our jobs" not "save SQ", which is the point I made earlier about the protests being worker organised, not Quinn organised as some tried to make out. 



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 04:49:50 PM
It's hard not to be cynical about the interface between save our jobs and save SQ. Sean Quinn is in serious financial difficulty. If the Insurance business goes down the toilet so does the fortune of SQ. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 04:58:36 PM
QI can still exist if it's taken of SQ (All be it in my belief not for long!!) That would still save the jobs but still destroys SQ. The Jobs, which is what people are protesting for, can still survive even in the event of taking it of SQ.
Don't get me wrong, there is still a hugh support from the protesters for SQ himself aswell as outlined before. But the protests are in response to the potential job loses.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 05:52:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 04:58:36 PM
QI can still exist if it's taken of SQ (All be it in my belief not for long!!) That would still save the jobs but still destroys SQ. The Jobs, which is what people are protesting for, can still survive even in the event of taking it of SQ.
Don't get me wrong, there is still a hugh support from the protesters for SQ himself aswell as outlined before. But the protests are in response to the potential job loses.

I'm not sure they understand the difference yet, but they will.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 06:01:31 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 06:04:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 06:01:31 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Ironically Sean Fitzpatrick blames Sean Quinn for bringing down Anglo and while I don't believe that, IMHO he was responsible for accelerating its demise.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 06:19:27 PM
I know SQ doesn't have alot of love for Fitzpatrick either. But no doubt it's all inter related and to be honest I'm still not too clear about all the facts and figures regarding excately what happened with Anglo. But like yourself I don't believe SQ was the reason behind the demise considering his loses are only a small portion of Anglos overall loses but I'm sure he did have an impact.
I suppose to sum up my position on what's happened so far is that I believe if the regulator works with Quinn and straighten out the solvency issues and put in measures to ensure he doesn't go beond his means again and allow him to work to pay of the debt then it would prob be the best option for the economy.
I know people will say why should he be allowed to work of his depts etc. But the other option is they take control of his businesses as payment or partical payment of his debts and try to run these companies to sell on. I know the values for these companies will drop like a stone if Quinn is taken from the helm. The result from that is the  a lot of the debt still out standing plus Quinn will have no way of paying of the debt.

I suppose this is were the issues arise over what is best to do. By the letter of the law maybe they should take the companies but the problem could be that if they do follow that path then the country and definitely Cavan and Fermanagh will be in alot worse position than if they try to work with him. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: no mo do yakamo on April 08, 2010, 06:30:03 PM
Seems to me like someone in government saw a one million a day cash cow as a solution to a raft of problems and  managed to encourage a member of the opposition to go get it for them. Neat.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 08, 2010, 06:39:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2010, 06:04:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 06:01:31 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Ironically Sean Fitzpatrick blames Sean Quinn for bringing down Anglo and while I don't believe that, IMHO he was responsible for accelerating its demise.


On what basis does Sean Fitzpatrick make those allegations ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 06:41:29 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 06:01:31 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Saw Enniskillen protest on UTV there, people standing with posters 'C U later regulator' - made by eirigi!!! Fergal McKinney also announced that the population of Fermanagh is 6,200, hilarious stuff!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 08, 2010, 06:47:49 PM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 06:41:29 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 06:01:31 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Saw Enniskillen protest on UTV there, people standing with posters 'C U later regulator' - made by eirigi!!! Fergal McKinney also announced that the population of Fermanagh is 6,200, hilarious stuff!

And him standing for election ?? Hilarious alright.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 06:53:32 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 08, 2010, 06:39:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2010, 06:04:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 06:01:31 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Ironically Sean Fitzpatrick blames Sean Quinn for bringing down Anglo and while I don't believe that, IMHO he was responsible for accelerating its demise.


On what basis does Sean Fitzpatrick make those allegations ??

http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/ivan-yates/its-time-we-pleaded-inability-to-pay-for-dead-banks-and-risky-businesses-116660.html#ixzz0kVqhr7FS (http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/ivan-yates/its-time-we-pleaded-inability-to-pay-for-dead-banks-and-risky-businesses-116660.html#ixzz0kVqhr7FS)

Not my opinion OM, Ivan Yeates.

It must have been exciting for Sean Fitzpatrick though when he discovered (assuming he didn't know which might not be correct) when the share price of Anglo had started to tumble that a single person held roughly a quarter of all the stock in a CFD. Not only that but the falling stock had meant this shareholder was going to have to offload a large chuck of the stock thereby guaranteeing that the share price tumbled even more which of course could have led to him selling more and so on. This arrangement seemed very likely to cause the collapse of the Anglo share price and we now know that Anglo loaned money to a 'Golden 10' to buy Quinn out of some of his mess and thus protect the share price.

At least that's what was supposed to happen.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 08, 2010, 07:58:29 PM
Quote from: scud on April 08, 2010, 06:41:29 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 06:01:31 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Saw Enniskillen protest on UTV there, people standing with posters 'C U later regulator' - made by eirigi!!! Fergal McKinney also announced that the population of Fermanagh is 6,200, hilarious stuff!

::)  Also quoted as saying "To many people Sean Quinn is Fermanagh and Fermanagh is Sean Quinn..."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 08:07:41 PM
Sean Fitzpatrick blames Sean Quinn for bringing down Anglo

nothing to do with a worthless loan book
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 08:18:47 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 08:07:41 PM
Sean Fitzpatrick blames Sean Quinn for bringing down Anglo

nothing to do with a worthless loan book

Posted this somewhere else: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2009/0929/1224255430943.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2009/0929/1224255430943.html)

Quote.........narcissists avoid blame by blaming everyone else and are very good at producing scapegoats and fall guys. A narcissist never experiences guilt because he's like the pampered dog who eats your dinner and allows itself to be chastised, only to cuddle up to you afterwards and steal your breakfast the next morning.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 08, 2010, 10:50:16 PM
When is the Regulator going to go after VHI ??

Quote from: no mo do yakamo on April 08, 2010, 06:30:03 PM
Seems to me like someone in government saw a one million a day cash cow as a solution to a raft of problems and  managed to encourage a member of the opposition to go get it for them. Neat.

This man speaks sense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 11:02:25 PM
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2314/angloquinnbank.png)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: give her dixie on April 08, 2010, 11:25:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2010, 11:02:25 PM
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2314/angloquinnbank.png)



Its on the cards.......................

http://www.rte.ie/business/2010/0408/quinn.html

State-owned Anglo Irish Bank has proposed injecting €700m into Quinn Group as part of a financial restructuring package, RTÉ News has learned. The plan, if agreed, would see €150m injected into Quinn Insurance and €550m would be used to pay off bondholders.

Anglo's proposal would see money injected into Quinn Insurance to address its solvency shortfall. Other banks owed €1.2 billion would be paid off with Irish Government bonds.

Anglo would take a majority stake in Quinn Group, which has interests including wind energy and manufacturing. This deal, in effect, would mean the State helping the insurance business out of its current difficulties.

But any such plan faces significant hurdles. The Financial Regulator has concerns, and a deal would also have to be approved by the European Commission.

Last week, provisional administrators were appointed by the High Court to Quinn Insurance. The Financial Regulator said it took the court action when it became aware that certain subsidiaries of Quinn Insurance had given guarantees which have the effect of reducing the insurer's assets by around €448m. The company and regulator are due to argue their cases in court on Monday.

Insurance brokers reassured on Quinn Insurance

Earlier, the joint provisional administrators appointed to Quinn Insurance wrote to Irish insurance brokers to reassure them that the company is continuing to trade and all of its liabilities are being met.

The administrators said the letter was a response to comments and information issued by the Irish Brokers Association (IBA).

The administrators, Paul McCann and Michael McAteer, referred to reports in the media yesterday where the IBA speculated that in certain scenarios, such as liquidation, Quinn Insurance's commercial customers would have limited access to the Insurance Compensation Fund.

Today's letter told brokers that during an administration procedure, by law, the company cannot be placed into liquidation.

'In the history of the administration process since it was introduced in 1983, no company which has gone into administration has gone into liquidation. We therefore write to reassure you that the legal position set out by the Insurance Brokers Association is not relevant as QIL is in administration,' the letter says.

'We may apply to the High Court to have access to the Insurance Compensation Fund for any sums which we and the court consider are required to enable us to carry on the business of QIL and to perform our other functions under the relevant legislation,' the provisional administrators said.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 08, 2010, 11:33:18 PM
Quote from: boojangles on April 08, 2010, 10:50:16 PM
When is the Regulator going to go after VHI ??

Quote from: no mo do yakamo on April 08, 2010, 06:30:03 PM
Seems to me like someone in government saw a one million a day cash cow as a solution to a raft of problems and  managed to encourage a member of the opposition to go get it for them. Neat.

This man speaks sense.
Great quote on the narcissist there, seanie doesn't seem to understand that the house of cards was not built on solid foundations, as seafoid points out, maybe the loan book had some impact too!

Why do you want the regulator to go after VHI?  VHI is semi-state, it's effectively the states alternative to funding a reasonable health service, imo VHI should work to different rules and the other guys should be subsidising it, unless of course we'd prefer the US system.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 09, 2010, 12:31:17 AM
Where does this Anglo deal leave Sean Quinn himself ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: no mo do yakamo on April 09, 2010, 01:25:44 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 08, 2010, 11:33:18 PM
Quote from: boojangles on April 08, 2010, 10:50:16 PM
When is the Regulator going to go after VHI ??

Quote from: no mo do yakamo on April 08, 2010, 06:30:03 PM
Seems to me like someone in government saw a one million a day cash cow as a solution to a raft of problems and  managed to encourage a member of the opposition to go get it for them. Neat.

This man speaks sense.
Great quote on the narcissist there, seanie doesn't seem to understand that the house of cards was not built on solid foundations, as seafoid points out, maybe the loan book had some impact too!

Why do you want the regulator to go after VHI?  VHI is semi-state, it's effectively the states alternative to funding a reasonable health service, imo VHI should work to different rules and the other guys should be subsidising it, unless of course we'd prefer the US system.
Sure arent all us taxpayers subsidising vhi any way. and all us non vhi health insurance subscribers are subsidising it on the double. What have they got in assets , equity or liquidity? Good job the regulator has his hands full now . better to be chasing the non subsidised Quinn , cos  god forbid that  you look at the state of the quinn subsidied vhi. Work to different rules??   Yeah . wanna play me at soccer? you can play by the normal rules and im allowed to handle the ball. Oh, and im picking the ref.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 09, 2010, 08:21:39 AM
Unreal stuff now - Is this officially a Quanglo then?????
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 08:29:50 AM
I see on Primtetime last night at last somebody in the media (bar John McManus) has the balls to place the blame for this situation exactly where it belongs...at SQ's door.  I hope people in Fermanagh were watching.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 09, 2010, 08:58:26 AM
Quote from: no mo do yakamo on April 09, 2010, 01:25:44 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 08, 2010, 11:33:18 PM
Quote from: boojangles on April 08, 2010, 10:50:16 PM
When is the Regulator going to go after VHI ??

Quote from: no mo do yakamo on April 08, 2010, 06:30:03 PM
Seems to me like someone in government saw a one million a day cash cow as a solution to a raft of problems and  managed to encourage a member of the opposition to go get it for them. Neat.

This man speaks sense.
Great quote on the narcissist there, seanie doesn't seem to understand that the house of cards was not built on solid foundations, as seafoid points out, maybe the loan book had some impact too!

Why do you want the regulator to go after VHI?  VHI is semi-state, it's effectively the states alternative to funding a reasonable health service, imo VHI should work to different rules and the other guys should be subsidising it, unless of course we'd prefer the US system.
Sure arent all us taxpayers subsidising vhi any way. and all us non vhi health insurance subscribers are subsidising it on the double. What have they got in assets , equity or liquidity? Good job the regulator has his hands full now . better to be chasing the non subsidised Quinn , cos  god forbid that  you look at the state of the quinn subsidied vhi. Work to different rules??   Yeah . wanna play me at soccer? you can play by the normal rules and im allowed to handle the ball. Oh, and im picking the ref.
well if you get to pick your team from vhi subscribers and I get to pick from the other health insurer subscribers, it'll hardly matter that you can handle the ball, my team will win anyway ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 09, 2010, 09:45:18 AM
Last week in his rte appeal to the masses SQ told us that it was simply a matter of getting the bondholders to release their guarantees, that these bondholders had been approached and were willing to play ball, this week we hear that anglo are trying to buy said bonds from the bondholders at a discount, thereby inferring that the bonds aren't worth their face value and that it would be a damned stupid bondholder who would release the guarantee from the performing company.
Last week in his rte appeal to the masses SQ told us that the regulator had performed one of the biggest mistakes in the history of the state, this week we hear that he was technically correct.

Starting to remind me of Bertie, the only difference is that Bertie was a successful gambler :D :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 09, 2010, 09:45:18 AM
Last week in his rte appeal to the masses SQ told us that it was simply a matter of getting the bondholders to release their guarantees, that these bondholders had been approached and were willing to play ball, this week we hear that anglo are trying to buy said bonds from the bondholders at a discount, thereby inferring that the bonds aren't worth their face value and that it would be a damned stupid bondholder who would release the guarantee from the performing company.
Last week in his rte appeal to the masses SQ told us that the regulator had performed one of the biggest mistakes in the history of the state, this week we hear that he was technically correct.

Starting to remind me of Bertie, the only difference is that Bertie was a successful gambler :D :D

Looks like the porkies have been flowing.  Question:  does the proposed €700mill injection mooted by RTE cover the €484mill of guarantees?  In other words is it covering the guarantees plus another €216mill or is it €700mill "cash" to make QI solvent??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bensars on April 09, 2010, 09:54:37 AM
Is the announcement expected today that QI will be put into permanent( if thats the trerm) administration ?

If so, what will be the implications ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 09, 2010, 10:00:29 AM
We are told that all insurance companies in the state have to have a 150% solvency level. Quinn needs around 100million to reach this level.Not 400million and definitely not 700million.

Does VHI (which is an Insurance provider) have a 150% solvency level?? What does it matter if it is semi-state or state run?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:05:26 AM
Quinn does only need £100M for to solve the solvency ratios which as I said yesterday were below the 150 required for Ireland. They were at approx 120%. Which is not unsafe by any measure considering in other economies the ratio needed is only 100%
The other 600m is to cover his bonds in America which he is claiming he does not want or need as he is fit to cover these bonds and has never defaulted payment on these.

But things look very bleak at the minute.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 10:07:23 AM
Quote from: Bensars on April 09, 2010, 09:54:37 AM
Is the announcement expected today that QI will be put into permanent( if thats the trerm) administration ?

If so, what will be the implications ?

The administrators confirmed yesterday that according to Southern law a company in administration cannot be liquidated...but I suppose it can be sold??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:15:21 AM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 10:07:23 AM
Quote from: Bensars on April 09, 2010, 09:54:37 AM
Is the announcement expected today that QI will be put into permanent( if thats the trerm) administration ?

If so, what will be the implications ?

The administrators confirmed yesterday that according to Southern law a company in administration cannot be liquidated...but I suppose it can be sold??

There is no way the Government is going to liquidate a profitable company. Like QMP says they'll prob take it, run it and hope to sell QI on. The problem being that by that stage QI will have dropped in value like a stone.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 10:28:03 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:05:26 AM
Quinn does only need £100M for to solve the solvency ratios which as I said yesterday were below the 150 required for Ireland. They were at approx 120%. Which is not unsafe by any measure considering in other economies the ratio needed is only 100%

That depends. Where are the assets of the company invested? If they are in the equivalent of horse number 4 in the 3.15 at Lingfield
100% is not sufficient.

The other question is what calls there are on the assets allocated to solvency.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:36:06 AM
Indeed, I'm only pointing out that only £100m of that is to cover the solvency ratio to bring it back up to the required 150% rate (It's this rate regardless of were the assests are invested).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 10:40:33 AM
supersarsfields...would you agree that if anyone is to "blame" for this situation then it is Sean Quinn??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 09, 2010, 10:40:59 AM
Quote from: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 10:28:03 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:05:26 AM
Quinn does only need £100M for to solve the solvency ratios which as I said yesterday were below the 150 required for Ireland. They were at approx 120%. Which is not unsafe by any measure considering in other economies the ratio needed is only 100%

That depends. Where are the assets of the company invested? If they are in the equivalent of horse number 4 in the 3.15 at Lingfield
100% is not sufficient.
The other question is what calls there are on the assets allocated to solvency.   

Em I think everybody knows that,sure isn't that what the whole fuss is over. Would it not make sense for the Government to loan QIL the 100 or so Million needed to meet the solvency ratio? Its a profitable business which can pay it back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:49:15 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

I'd say that I believe he fell under his solvency rates for Ireland and I suppose he has to shoulder the blame for that. And the risks he took with Anglo.
But I don't believe the best way out of this was putting the business into adminstration. When Quinn was in charge he was running a profitable ship, and was paying of the debt that he owed. My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.

Now with what has happened there is a fair chance QI will be ruined, jobs lost and SQ left with no way of paying the debt of.

Now do you believe the regulators worked in the best interest of the economy as a whole including jobs, debts etc or could they have followed a less aggressive tactic in reaching an agreement? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 09, 2010, 10:52:15 AM
Wonder will the regulator now go after VHI??
Tthey've always been (technically) insolvent and the regulator has turned a blind eye as it's mainly because the government owns them.
Theirs is due to a general incompetence / inability to face up to the consultants rather than covertly covering some fellas gambling debts !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 11:01:10 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:49:15 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

I'd say that I believe he fell under his solvency rates for Ireland and I suppose he has to shoulder the blame for that. And the risks he took with Anglo.
But I don't believe the best way out of this was putting the business into adminstration. When Quinn was in charge he was running a profitable ship, and was paying of the debt that he owed. My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.

Now with what has happened there is a fair chance QI will be ruined, jobs lost and SQ left with no way of paying the debt of.

Now do you believe the regulators worked in the best interest of the economy as a whole including jobs, debts etc or could they have followed a less aggressive tactic in reaching an agreement?

Maybe if QI had worked with the Regulator....

I can agree with a lot of what you say ss, but QI has previous in this field and the main aggression I see in the whole situation was SQ's agressive pursuit of what??...money, power, ego...with Anglo. 

My position is this...I have total sympathy with the employees, I hope a resolution is found that protects all the jobs.  The Group is so big in this area it cannot be allowed to fail, it is as important to the local economy here as any bank is to the national interest.  Therefore I am actually in favour of some intervention/bail out.  But what irks me is the rush to lionise SQ when it is clear his actions have brought the Group to its knees. 

Just my €700mill worth...or is it 100mill or 150 mill ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on April 09, 2010, 11:10:52 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 09, 2010, 10:52:15 AM
Wonder will the regulator now go after VHI??
Tthey've always been (technically) insolvent and the regulator has turned a blind eye as it's mainly because the government owns them.
Theirs is due to a general incompetence / inability to face up to the consultants rather than covertly covering some fellas gambling debts !


The regulator can't go after the VHI ..

It's not within his remit yet ....  http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0120/1224262715137.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0120/1224262715137.html)

Lots more discussion on Quinn here : http://www.politics.ie/economy/127508-anglo-quinnish-bankinsurance-aka-quanglo-16.html (http://www.politics.ie/economy/127508-anglo-quinnish-bankinsurance-aka-quanglo-16.html)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:49:15 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.



Quinn and the regulator had previously agreed on a plan whereby QI would limit the amount of lossmaking business it wrote in the UK but Quinn subsequently ignored this. I have the feeling Quinn thought he could do whatever he wanted regulation wise.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 11:24:57 AM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 11:01:10 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:49:15 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

I'd say that I believe he fell under his solvency rates for Ireland and I suppose he has to shoulder the blame for that. And the risks he took with Anglo.
But I don't believe the best way out of this was putting the business into adminstration. When Quinn was in charge he was running a profitable ship, and was paying of the debt that he owed. My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.

Now with what has happened there is a fair chance QI will be ruined, jobs lost and SQ left with no way of paying the debt of.

Now do you believe the regulators worked in the best interest of the economy as a whole including jobs, debts etc or could they have followed a less aggressive tactic in reaching an agreement?

Maybe if QI had worked with the Regulator....

I can agree with a lot of what you say ss, but QI has previous in this field and the main aggression I see in the whole situation was SQ's agressive pursuit of what??...money, power, ego...with Anglo. 

My position is this...I have total sympathy with the employees, I hope a resolution is found that protects all the jobs.  The Group is so big in this area it cannot be allowed to fail, it is as important to the local economy here as any bank is to the national interest.  Therefore I am actually in favour of some intervention/bail out.  But what irks me is the rush to lionise SQ when it is clear his actions have brought the Group to its knees. 

Just my €700mill worth...or is it 100mill or 150 mill ;)

I wouldn't be rushing to lionise him either, but considering he is in a position to pay of his debts (Unlike others who have just folded and left Anglo with the debt) and the fact that he has been loyal to the area with regards to saving jobs, keeping the work in Ireland etc they could have come to an arrangement. Remember the regulator put QI into provisional adminstration without allowing QG a chance to counter or even be at the hearing. True they are "techinially" right  ;) but was it the best way of sorting out the mess? Surely a solution that allows the debt to be paid over time while maintaining employment and putting safe guards in place to deal with the solvency issues would be better to the alternative.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 09, 2010, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:49:15 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.



Quinn and the regulator had previously agreed on a plan whereby QI would limit the amount of lossmaking business it wrote in the UK but Quinn subsequently ignored this. I have the feeling Quinn thought he could do whatever he wanted regulation wise.

You have a feeling?
I have a feeling some people are just glad to watch a home grown Billionaire, who did more than any of us could ever to do for this economy,fall on his knees.
He loaned some of his subsidaries money that weren't doing as well as others. Thats going on everywhere,just on a smaller scale. He never broke any laws. Some people should remember that.
He took unprecedented gambles as regards Anglo-Irish but by heck is he going to pay for it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 09, 2010, 12:33:34 PM
Quote from: Declan on April 09, 2010, 10:52:15 AM
Wonder will the regulator now go after VHI??
Tthey've always been (technically) insolvent and the regulator has turned a blind eye as it's mainly because the government owns them.

is that not the point though, since they're state owned they're only insolvent if the state is insolvent and that would never happen :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 09, 2010, 12:36:21 PM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 11:01:10 AM

Maybe if QI had worked with the Regulator....

I can agree with a lot of what you say ss, but QI has previous in this field and the main aggression I see in the whole situation was SQ's agressive pursuit of what??...money, power, ego...with Anglo. 

My position is this...I have total sympathy with the employees, I hope a resolution is found that protects all the jobs.  The Group is so big in this area it cannot be allowed to fail, it is as important to the local economy here as any bank is to the national interest.  Therefore I am actually in favour of some intervention/bail out.  But what irks me is the rush to lionise SQ when it is clear his actions have brought the Group to its knees. 

Just my €700mill worth...or is it 100mill or 150 mill ;)

Good post.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 12:43:49 PM
Quote from: boojangles on April 09, 2010, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:49:15 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.



Quinn and the regulator had previously agreed on a plan whereby QI would limit the amount of lossmaking business it wrote in the UK but Quinn subsequently ignored this. I have the feeling Quinn thought he could do whatever he wanted regulation wise.

You have a feeling? I have a feeling some people are just glad to watch a home grown Billionaire, who did more than any of us could ever to do for this economy,fall on his knees. He loaned some of his subsidaries money that weren't doing as well as others. Thats going on everywhere,just on a smaller scale. He never broke any laws. Some people should remember that.
He took unprecedented gambles as regards Anglo-Irish but by heck is he going to pay for it.

He ran the insurance company like a cowboy. He let his employees down. He got caught out regulator wise. He probably thought Neary would continue ad infinitum. He cut a deal with the regulator and subsequently broke it. It's not a witch hunt. This is how regulation is supposed to work.

If the business is solid then what's the worry ? If average salaries are around 20,000€ aren't the jobs likely to stay in borderestan ?     
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 09, 2010, 12:53:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 12:43:49 PM
Quote from: boojangles on April 09, 2010, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:49:15 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.



Quinn and the regulator had previously agreed on a plan whereby QI would limit the amount of lossmaking business it wrote in the UK but Quinn subsequently ignored this. I have the feeling Quinn thought he could do whatever he wanted regulation wise.

You have a feeling? I have a feeling some people are just glad to watch a home grown Billionaire, who did more than any of us could ever to do for this economy,fall on his knees. He loaned some of his subsidaries money that weren't doing as well as others. Thats going on everywhere,just on a smaller scale. He never broke any laws. Some people should remember that.
He took unprecedented gambles as regards Anglo-Irish but by heck is he going to pay for it.

He ran the insurance company like a cowboy. He let his employees down. He got caught out regulator wise. He probably thought Neary would continue ad infinitum. He cut a deal with the regulator and subsequently broke it. It's not a witch hunt. This is how regulation is supposed to work.

If the business is solid then what's the worry ? If average salaries are around 20,000€ aren't the jobs likely to stay in borderestan ?   

  :D excellent
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:01:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 12:43:49 PM
Quote from: boojangles on April 09, 2010, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:49:15 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.



Quinn and the regulator had previously agreed on a plan whereby QI would limit the amount of lossmaking business it wrote in the UK but Quinn subsequently ignored this. I have the feeling Quinn thought he could do whatever he wanted regulation wise.

You have a feeling? I have a feeling some people are just glad to watch a home grown Billionaire, who did more than any of us could ever to do for this economy,fall on his knees. He loaned some of his subsidaries money that weren't doing as well as others. Thats going on everywhere,just on a smaller scale. He never broke any laws. Some people should remember that.
He took unprecedented gambles as regards Anglo-Irish but by heck is he going to pay for it.

He ran the insurance company like a cowboy. He let his employees down. He got caught out regulator wise. He probably thought Neary would continue ad infinitum. He cut a deal with the regulator and subsequently broke it. It's not a witch hunt. This is how regulation is supposed to work.

If the business is solid then what's the worry ? If average salaries are around 20,000€ aren't the jobs likely to stay in borderestan ?   

If the business is sold there'll be job losses. How many will be unknown. If it's bought by a larger insurance firm there's a chance they could move the call centres to another country which would reduce hugh costs for them. But the results from that will be massive job losses in an area that can't afford them.
He was told when starting QI that he'll never be able to run an irish insurance company successfully. He did and created thousands of jobs that otherwise wouldn't be there now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 09, 2010, 01:29:23 PM
In the short term, there will be plenty of noise about how a deal has been brokered so that the jobs will stay where they are, and the government will pat themselves on the back. In the long term, noone will have the commitment to that area Quinn has had, and the first chance the new owners get, they'll pull out, leaving that whole part of the country completely fucked.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 09, 2010, 01:33:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:01:42 PMI have a feeling some people are just glad to watch a home grown Billionaire, who did more than any of us could ever to do for this economy,fall on his knees. He loaned some of his subsidaries money that weren't doing as well as others. Thats going on everywhere,just on a smaller scale. He never broke any laws. Some people should remember that.He took unprecedented gambles as regards Anglo-Irish but by heck is he going to pay for it.

He ran the insurance company like a cowboy. He let his employees down. He got caught out regulator wise. He probably thought Neary would continue ad infinitum. He cut a deal with the regulator and subsequently broke it. It's not a witch hunt. This is how regulation is supposed to work.

If the business is solid then what's the worry ? If average salaries are around 20,000€ aren't the jobs likely to stay in borderestan ?   
[/quote]

If the business is sold there'll be job losses. How many will be unknown. If it's bought by a larger insurance firm there's a chance they could move the call centres to another country which would reduce hugh costs for them. But the results from that will be massive job losses in an area that can't afford them.
He was told when starting QI that he'll never be able to run an irish insurance company successfully. He did and created thousands of jobs that otherwise wouldn't be there now.
[/quote]

If regulations aren't laws what are they?  Apparently a file may be passed to the guards.

Is it likely that the jobs would be moved out of ireland?  I know FBD have their call centres here, I imagine hibernian do too, I would have thought that something like insurance call centres would be more lkely to stay in ireland, not as easy formulaic as mst operations?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 09, 2010, 01:43:24 PM
Was he just the "cowboy" that was left standing so that he could be made an example out of ?


Given the 70 billion that is needed to recapitalise the banking industry, 100 million doesn't seem much.


But obviously I don't know the full details like some of you here do.

File being passed to the gardai ??? For what ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 09, 2010, 01:51:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

You're caught up in it I know  - but did SQ's Primetime performance not give you heart and optimism ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 09, 2010, 01:56:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

I'm sure it can easily be demonstrated that Quinn Group is of 'systemic' importance to the Fermanagh/Cavan region. With that in mind I'd be confident that a deal of some description will be done to protect jobs and have some future for some of the businesses. That future may not be on the staff's terms and almost certainly won't be on Sean Quinn's terms but hopefully there will be a future for all the employees nonetheless.

However presenting Quinn as a victim or hero or whatever won't help the real victims who are the staff.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:58:26 PM
At this stage I'm just worn down by everything to be honest. One day of optimism is followed by a day of depressing news. I just can't see it working out the way I would like it to.

I'm just guessing we'll know more by Monday evening one way or the other.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 09, 2010, 02:01:53 PM
What is the next move by the Regulator likely to be ?

If the solvency ratio requirement is acheived surely's that it ??? Out of administration or is it not just as black and white as all of that ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 02:02:04 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

Sincerely hope things work out best for you ss.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 02:08:33 PM
They'll probably cut a deal with Quinn that saves the jobs and tells him to stop f**king around with the solvency margin, stop writing as much  loss making business in the UK , stop treating the livelihoods of 5500 decent people as his personal fiefdom, that sort of thing.

It's not as if FF is going to have a snowball's in the next election anyway but this is no time to sacrifice decent jobs.
I hope things work out for you, supersars. There is nothing worse jobwise than not knowing what the next month is going to bring for your employer.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 09, 2010, 02:12:48 PM
maybe I shouldnt be saying this in case its Quinns plan and i'm letting the cat out of the bag with my hypothetical potential scenario.

Quinn allows the portions or the whole lot to be bought over by aviva or some big insurance company.
they take the call centre business out of the country to eastern europe etc - wherever !

The buildings are then put up for sale for pittance as they are of no use to anyone.

However , then Quinn sets up the same operation all over again, but having maybe gained some money and shaken off all of his debt into the bargain by this manouvre !

If you think this is a stupid or crazy suggestion, then remember its exactly what Dermot Desmond did in selling NCB stockbrokers , pocketing hundreds of millions and then starting up the same business under IIU and attracting back all his old customers from NCB - and there wasnt a thing NCB could do about it !

I'd love that to happen !
(pass on the debts to a large non-Irish  insurance multinational and retain all the jobs!)
:)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Geoff Tipps on April 09, 2010, 02:14:17 PM
QuoteIs it likely that the jobs would be moved out of ireland?  I know FBD have their call centres here, I imagine hibernian do too, I would have thought that something like insurance call centres would be more lkely to stay in ireland, not as easy formulaic as mst operations?

I think they do have a call centre here as an initial starting point for customers  but they've definitely re-located the data processing and claims recovery services. If they were to acquire Quinn there's every chance these jobs would be re located to Bangalore as well.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 02:29:41 PM
Cheers QMP & Seafoid.

One thing I've wondered about and maybe someone could help me out. There's obviously two issues involved here. The issue of QG owing Anglo £3 Billion. Then a seperate issue of the Solvency ratios.

Just wondering lets say QI still broke the solvency ratios but didn't owe the Anglo debt. Would the corse of action still be taking over the business?
Or alternatively if QI hadn't broken the solvency ratios but obviously still owed the debt would they still have taken over the business?

Or is it just a case that the solvency ratios gave Anglo a chance and reason to take over QI by using the regulator?
(Serious question here and I'm not trying to deflect from the two major issues here regarding QG and QI)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 09, 2010, 02:36:13 PM
QuoteJust wondering lets say QI still broke the solvency ratios but didn't owe the Anglo debt. Would the corse of action still be taking over the business?
In a real regulatory environment yes
Quote
Or alternatively if QI hadn't broken the solvency ratios but obviously still owed the debt would they still have taken over the business?
I'd have thought this would be between the Bank and it's creditors and it's up to the bank to take action

QuoteOr is it just a case that the solvency ratios gave Anglo a chance and reason to take over QI by using the regulator
?
I think so yes
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on April 09, 2010, 02:44:34 PM
supersarsfields, i'm guessing your in the same boat as myself, my better half works for QI and for the last week or more its been a constant concern about whats going to happen........im still hopeful that whatever happens, jobs can be retained in the area cos there is nothing else about.........

Its just a complete mess................
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 09, 2010, 05:27:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 09, 2010, 01:56:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

I'm sure it can easily be demonstrated that Quinn Group is of 'systemic' importance to the Fermanagh/Cavan region. With that in mind I'd be confident that a deal of some description will be done to protect jobs and have some future for some of the businesses. That future may not be on the staff's terms and almost certainly won't be on Sean Quinn's terms but hopefully there will be a future for all the employees nonetheless.

However presenting Quinn as a victim or hero or whatever won't help the real victims who are the staff.

There will be a loada empty promises as usual, nothing else. The reason Quinn commands such loyalty is that he has been loyal to the area. Most people realise that saving quinn and saving their jobs are very closely linked, cos anyone who buys it over will be outta there as soon as the deal allows.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 10, 2010, 03:52:43 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 09, 2010, 05:27:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 09, 2010, 01:56:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

I'm sure it can easily be demonstrated that Quinn Group is of 'systemic' importance to the Fermanagh/Cavan region. With that in mind I'd be confident that a deal of some description will be done to protect jobs and have some future for some of the businesses. That future may not be on the staff's terms and almost certainly won't be on Sean Quinn's terms but hopefully there will be a future for all the employees nonetheless.

However presenting Quinn as a victim or hero or whatever won't help the real victims who are the staff.

There will be a loada empty promises as usual, nothing else. The reason Quinn commands such loyalty is that he has been loyal to the area. Most people realise that saving quinn and saving their jobs are very closely linked, cos anyone who buys it over will be outta there as soon as the deal allows.

I don't understand how people whose livelihood have been gambled can see it that way. If you see Quinn as owning the staff then fine, but if you see him as having a shred of responsibility to the staff that helped him along the road then I wouldn't agree.

I still see the staff as innocents here and sincerely hope it works out for them. I have no sympathy for the man who gambled €3 Billion on a CFD. I don't agree with you that if someone else takes over that the jobs are gone but I accept that it is a variable and we won't know for sure until it happens. In that case ironically Anglo might be the best bet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 10, 2010, 07:40:06 PM
What's the latest ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 10, 2010, 09:24:29 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 10, 2010, 03:52:43 AM

I still see the staff as innocents here and sincerely hope it works out for them. I have no sympathy for the man who gambled €3 Billion on a CFD. I don't agree with you that if someone else takes over that the jobs are gone but I accept that it is a variable and we won't know for sure until it happens. In that case ironically Anglo might be the best bet.
Is it not the case that Quinn's net worth rose from approx 1Bn in 2000 to an estimated 4.5Bn precisely because of such gambles in the first place?  If so, was SQ's only crime not knowing when to leave the table?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 11, 2010, 11:23:11 PM
Anyone have any insight into what's going to happen tomorrow with the administrators ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on April 12, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
There is a postponement of court procedings until next Monday.  Will a deal be cut?

I will have to listen to Northern Sound at 1 o'clock to get the lowdown.  Never thought I'd be doing this!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 12, 2010, 01:15:36 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on April 12, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
There is a postponement of court procedings until next Monday.  Will a deal be cut?

I will have to listen to Northern Sound at 1 o'clock to get the lowdown.  Never thought I'd be doing this!

Looks like Quinns are buying time to cut a deal with Anglo that the Regulator will be able to live with??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thewobbler on April 12, 2010, 01:25:50 PM
My grasp of big boy economics is on a par with your average garden toad, but surely the 100m euro or so that Quinn is short, is nothing compared to the amount of money that Irish development boards and employment agencies have spent and will continue to spend, in order to bring foreign companies and their various employment opportunities to Ireland?

I'm not sponsoring the idea that major companies can do what they like, but surely as an indigenous company that has made a long-term commitment to employment in Ireland you might expect not be made an example of.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on April 12, 2010, 01:32:13 PM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 12, 2010, 01:15:36 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on April 12, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
There is a postponement of court procedings until next Monday.  Will a deal be cut?

I will have to listen to Northern Sound at 1 o'clock to get the lowdown.  Never thought I'd be doing this!

Looks like Quinns are buying time to cut a deal with Anglo that the Regulator will be able to live with??

Just wondering did anyone hear the Quinn chief operations manager on Radio 1 yesterday morning. The arrogance of the man, his point was if Quinn insurance is taken from the Quinn  group, the taxpayer will not get the 2.8 billion Anglo money back. The regualtor should first and foremost protect the taxpayer and worry about the rules been adhered to, secondly. he failed to see the point that Quinn insurance money cannot be used to cover poorer performing parts of the company as this is in breach of the regulations. The panelists tied him up in knots and showed that Quinn group preservation was his priority, f##k the taxpayers and the policy holders. I hope the regulator holds firm and sends out the message to other such "too big to fail" institutions, obey the rules or pay the price, its not the taxpayers job to keep picking up the tab for these institutions' gambling and grey area dealing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 02:11:37 PM
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on April 12, 2010, 01:32:13 PM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 12, 2010, 01:15:36 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on April 12, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
There is a postponement of court procedings until next Monday.  Will a deal be cut?

I will have to listen to Northern Sound at 1 o'clock to get the lowdown.  Never thought I'd be doing this!

Looks like Quinns are buying time to cut a deal with Anglo that the Regulator will be able to live with??

Just wondering did anyone hear the Quinn chief operations manager on Radio 1 yesterday morning. The arrogance of the man, his point was if Quinn insurance is taken from the Quinn  group, the taxpayer will not get the 2.8 billion Anglo money back. The regualtor should first and foremost protect the taxpayer and worry about the rules been adhered to, secondly. he failed to see the point that Quinn insurance money cannot be used to cover poorer performing parts of the company as this is in breach of the regulations. The panelists tied him up in knots and showed that Quinn group preservation was his priority, f##k the taxpayers and the policy holders. I hope the regulator holds firm and sends out the message to other such "too big to fail" institutions, obey the rules or pay the price, its not the taxpayers job to keep picking up the tab for these institutions' gambling and grey area dealing.
would somewhat agree - but why are we doing exactly this for the banks then ? but not for quinns?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 02:13:30 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on April 12, 2010, 01:25:50 PM
My grasp of big boy economics is on a par with your average garden toad, but surely the 100m euro or so that Quinn is short, is nothing compared to the amount of money that Irish development boards and employment agencies have spent and will continue to spend, in order to bring foreign companies and their various employment opportunities to Ireland?

I'm not sponsoring the idea that major companies can do what they like, but surely as an indigenous company that has made a long-term commitment to employment in Ireland you might expect not be made an example of.
good point
a gov agency wastes more money than this per year
Enterprise ireland, IDA etc
sure a cousin of mine who worked in the science foundation said that they get 200 million per year to divy out - of which 35 jobs have been created in about 10 years
what a waste
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 02:16:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 10, 2010, 03:52:43 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 09, 2010, 05:27:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 09, 2010, 01:56:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

I'm sure it can easily be demonstrated that Quinn Group is of 'systemic' importance to the Fermanagh/Cavan region. With that in mind I'd be confident that a deal of some description will be done to protect jobs and have some future for some of the businesses. That future may not be on the staff's terms and almost certainly won't be on Sean Quinn's terms but hopefully there will be a future for all the employees nonetheless.

However presenting Quinn as a victim or hero or whatever won't help the real victims who are the staff.

There will be a loada empty promises as usual, nothing else. The reason Quinn commands such loyalty is that he has been loyal to the area. Most people realise that saving quinn and saving their jobs are very closely linked, cos anyone who buys it over will be outta there as soon as the deal allows.

I don't understand how people whose livelihood have been gambled can see it that way. If you see Quinn as owning the staff then fine, but if you see him as having a shred of responsibility to the staff that helped him along the road then I wouldn't agree.

I still see the staff as innocents here and sincerely hope it works out for them. I have no sympathy for the man who gambled €3 Billion on a CFD. I don't agree with you that if someone else takes over that the jobs are gone but I accept that it is a variable and we won't know for sure until it happens. In that case ironically Anglo might be the best bet.
you might look at it as peoples livlihoods having been gambled with - but for the people in these jobs, this is the only show in town. th eonly employer in this area (save for MBNA) that can give decent employment outside of Dublin.

Their continuing jobs is all they are thinking of.
plus quinn didnt do much more different than many other money men of the past 10-15 years , only he is one of the few left standing...others like mcnamaras have gone into liquidation/bankruptcy and their money is gone (a lot of it still at hand in their wives names etc)...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on April 12, 2010, 03:26:37 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 02:16:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 10, 2010, 03:52:43 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 09, 2010, 05:27:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 09, 2010, 01:56:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

I'm sure it can easily be demonstrated that Quinn Group is of 'systemic' importance to the Fermanagh/Cavan region. With that in mind I'd be confident that a deal of some description will be done to protect jobs and have some future for some of the businesses. That future may not be on the staff's terms and almost certainly won't be on Sean Quinn's terms but hopefully there will be a future for all the employees nonetheless.

However presenting Quinn as a victim or hero or whatever won't help the real victims who are the staff.

There will be a loada empty promises as usual, nothing else. The reason Quinn commands such loyalty is that he has been loyal to the area. Most people realise that saving quinn and saving their jobs are very closely linked, cos anyone who buys it over will be outta there as soon as the deal allows.

I don't understand how people whose livelihood have been gambled can see it that way. If you see Quinn as owning the staff then fine, but if you see him as having a shred of responsibility to the staff that helped him along the road then I wouldn't agree.

I still see the staff as innocents here and sincerely hope it works out for them. I have no sympathy for the man who gambled €3 Billion on a CFD. I don't agree with you that if someone else takes over that the jobs are gone but I accept that it is a variable and we won't know for sure until it happens. In that case ironically Anglo might be the best bet.
you might look at it as peoples livlihoods having been gambled with - but for the people in these jobs, this is the only show in town. th eonly employer in this area (save for MBNA) that can give decent employment outside of Dublin.

Their continuing jobs is all they are thinking of.
plus quinn didnt do much more different than many other money men of the past 10-15 years , only he is one of the few left standing...others like mcnamaras have gone into liquidation/bankruptcy and their money is gone (a lot of it still at hand in their wives names etc)...

Agree with everything that has been said, but external people were appointed to these key positions (regualtor, central bank boss)  so that we could turn away from the "nod and the wink culture" that has existed here almost since the foundation of the state. I agree that it must be tough for these workers and their families, but we are at a cross roads here, do we (the tax payer) keep on bailing every rule bender and breaker ,or do we draw a line in the sand and be like every other mature society in the western world by having proper coperate governence and if high risks are taken by these executive boards, then they are the ones with ALL of the risk with no liability to the tax payer. If Quinn's gamble paid off, would Anglo be any quicker getting their money back ?Wasn't it quick Anglo were to arrive with 700 million to "help"Quinn out, he already owes 2.8 billion to the Irish taxpayer, so what is 700 million more? Do these people think we are just here to hand money out to them every time they gamble and get it wrong?How many thousands of jobs could be saved if that money was put into the SME sector to help small companies?  As usual the big mickeys get all the help from their friends in high places and the small fish, including the people who work for Quinn in the border region are left out in the cold. I think Quinn thought that there would be a parachute for him if his gamble didn't work out and now that the climate has changed so much he is left holding the dirty end of the stick.Its time for a change and if these external experts are turning out not to be the "yes" men of the past, well maybe then this country has a chance of getting out of this hole we are in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 03:32:41 PM
quinn like most others, didnt expect the economy to go belly up - he gambled and lost out.

I still find it disgusting that the banks are being bailed out, that the gov or the people bailing them out (ie us) are getting nothing for our trouble
meanwhile by going down from AA rating to AA for the duration, these banks cost us an additional 4.3 billion in extra interest rates to world bank.


I'd expect something for our trouble - either to no reposess houses or to give every person 50 or 100 grand.
I'm not joking either.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on April 12, 2010, 03:45:19 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 03:32:41 PM
quinn like most others, didnt expect the economy to go belly up - he gambled and lost out.

I still find it disgusting that the banks are being bailed out, that the gov or the people bailing them out (ie us) are getting nothing for our trouble
meanwhile by going down from AA rating to AA for the duration, these banks cost us an additional 4.3 billion in extra interest rates to world bank.


I'd expect something for our trouble - either to no reposess houses or to give every person 50 or 100 grand.
I'm not joking either.

I heard some tax expert on the radio a while back, who said that it would have cost less to pay off all the mortgages in the state than NAMA costs and that all the extra money in peoples pockets would have ended the recession there and then. But would we as a nation have learned our lesson or would the "boom" have started again. We as a nation are not good at learning lessons.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 12, 2010, 04:03:27 PM
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on April 12, 2010, 03:45:19 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 03:32:41 PM


I heard some tax expert on the radio a while back, who said that it would have cost less to pay off all the mortgages in the state than NAMA costs and that all the extra money in peoples pockets would have ended the recession there and then. But would we as a nation have learned our lesson or would the "boom" have started again. We as a nation are not good at learning lessons.

That sounds like a bit of a stretch. NAMA is going to cost something like €50bn + annual interest. O/S Mortgages in total exceed €100bn. BoI has a book of €29bn and about 25% of the market.  NAMA is about plugging the hole in commercial lending. EVEN IF the Gov't paid off the mortgages in full the banks would still be banjaxed on the commercial side.

The idea that NAMA will somehow work a miracle for domestic mortgages is deluded. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 04:23:59 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on April 12, 2010, 05:59:11 PM
QuoteI could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.

I suppose you can see Tyrone winning the All Ireland as well.  ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 12, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 04:23:59 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
the meeja down here don't agree with you, it was adjourned today simply because quinn's affidavit was so large and arrived in an hour before the hearing, a cynic would say that was its purpose.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 09:36:23 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 12, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 04:23:59 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
the meeja down here don't agree with you, it was adjourned today simply because quinn's affidavit was so large and arrived in an hour before the hearing, a cynic would say that was its purpose.

Maybe a week will give him the time required to rectify the solvency ratio by gathering up a 100-150 million which should keep the regulator quiet ??. Wishful thinking ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 12, 2010, 09:54:09 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 09:36:23 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 12, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 04:23:59 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
the meeja down here don't agree with you, it was adjourned today simply because quinn's affidavit was so large and arrived in an hour before the hearing, a cynic would say that was its purpose.

Maybe a week will give him the time required to rectify the solvency ratio by gathering up a 100-150 million which should keep the regulator quiet ??. Wishful thinking ?.
don't know, starting to lose track of this a bit, but is it not €400m that's needed?  I know they've been saying that Anglo need €700m to go ahead with saving Quinn, presumably that's in order to buy out the bondholders?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 10:51:42 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 12, 2010, 09:54:09 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 09:36:23 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 12, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 04:23:59 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
the meeja down here don't agree with you, it was adjourned today simply because quinn's affidavit was so large and arrived in an hour before the hearing, a cynic would say that was its purpose.

Maybe a week will give him the time required to rectify the solvency ratio by gathering up a 100-150 million which should keep the regulator quiet ??. Wishful thinking ?.
don't know, starting to lose track of this a bit, but is it not €400m that's needed?  I know they've been saying that Anglo need €700m to go ahead with saving Quinn, presumably that's in order to buy out the bondholders?

I thought it was only 100-150 million on order to restore the 150% solvency ratio ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 13, 2010, 01:25:29 AM
Quote from: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 10:51:42 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 12, 2010, 09:54:09 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 09:36:23 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 12, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 04:23:59 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
the meeja down here don't agree with you, it was adjourned today simply because quinn's affidavit was so large and arrived in an hour before the hearing, a cynic would say that was its purpose.

Maybe a week will give him the time required to rectify the solvency ratio by gathering up a 100-150 million which should keep the regulator quiet ??. Wishful thinking ?.
don't know, starting to lose track of this a bit, but is it not €400m that's needed?  I know they've been saying that Anglo need €700m to go ahead with saving Quinn, presumably that's in order to buy out the bondholders?

I thought it was only 100-150 million on order to restore the 150% solvency ratio ??
did they not say initially that the (previously unknown, or previously disclosed, depending on who you're talking to) guarantees for €500m were the reason the solvency ratio was out of kilter, since it now looks like these guarantees are what gives the bonds their value, then in order to release them, the bondholders would have to be paid back the full amount owing?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 13, 2010, 09:03:18 AM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 12:00:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 13, 2010, 09:03:18 AM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.


That was / is my understanding of the situation. If it is there's a chance that Quinn can retrieve the situation. If it is not, then he's in trouble.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 13, 2010, 12:26:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 13, 2010, 09:03:18 AM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.
but is the point not that the guarantees have to be released, and the only way that will happen is by buying the bonds back at face value (or below as I believe Anglo are trying to negotiate).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 13, 2010, 12:40:00 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 12:00:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 13, 2010, 09:03:18 AM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.


That was / is my understanding of the situation. If it is there's a chance that Quinn can retrieve the situation. If it is not, then he's in trouble.

The above is Sean Quinn's version. The Regulator has a different story. One of them is being economical with the truth.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 13, 2010, 12:58:29 PM
No doubt. Like i say I'm only going on what I've heard. It's a hard process trying to follow all the facts and figures.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 01:35:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 13, 2010, 12:40:00 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 12:00:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 13, 2010, 09:03:18 AM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.


That was / is my understanding of the situation. If it is there's a chance that Quinn can retrieve the situation. If it is not, then he's in trouble.

The above is Sean Quinn's version. The Regulator has a different story. One of them is being economical with the truth.

To avoid the speculation and Quinn trying to portray him wrongly, why does the Regulator not come out and call him a liar ( if he is a liar ) ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 13, 2010, 01:51:01 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 01:35:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 13, 2010, 12:40:00 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 12:00:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 13, 2010, 09:03:18 AM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.

That was / is my understanding of the situation. If it is there's a chance that Quinn can retrieve the situation. If it is not, then he's in trouble.

The above is Sean Quinn's version. The Regulator has a different story. One of them is being economical with the truth.

To avoid the speculation and Quinn trying to portray him wrongly, why does the Regulator not come out and call him a liar ( if he is a liar ) ?.

That would be good craic alright! 'Mr Quinn, you're a big liar', 'Am not!', Are so!'  :D

I think to a certain extent the regulator is indifferent to the figures. The main point is Quinn has operated below the required solvency levels for years and continues to do so, despite being warned a couple of years back. I keep hearing this phrase 'total breakdown of trust' and I think that may be the reall issue here. The regulator sees Quinn as a risk taker, a cowboy maybe, and not someone he wants involved in the future of the Quinn Insurance company.

Another thing I noticed which I haven't been able to figure out. SQ phones prime time and gives his little speech about Quinn Insurance having 'loadsamoney'- which many reported as a rejection of the Anglo bid, yet the directors of QIL spoke very favourably about the Anglo proposal. Now surely if they had plenty of money Quinn wouldn't want to lose control for the sake of an extra €150m liquidity?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on April 13, 2010, 02:18:59 PM
Quote from: scud on April 13, 2010, 01:51:01 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 01:35:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 13, 2010, 12:40:00 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 12:00:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 13, 2010, 09:03:18 AM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.

That was / is my understanding of the situation. If it is there's a chance that Quinn can retrieve the situation. If it is not, then he's in trouble.

The above is Sean Quinn's version. The Regulator has a different story. One of them is being economical with the truth.

To avoid the speculation and Quinn trying to portray him wrongly, why does the Regulator not come out and call him a liar ( if he is a liar ) ?.

That would be good craic alright! 'Mr Quinn, you're a big liar', 'Am not!', Are so!'  :D

I think to a certain extent the regulator is indifferent to the figures. The main point is Quinn has operated below the required solvency levels for years and continues to do so, despite being warned a couple of years back. I keep hearing this phrase 'total breakdown of trust' and I think that may be the reall issue here. The regulator sees Quinn as a risk taker, a cowboy maybe, and not someone he wants involved in the future of the Quinn Insurance company.

Another thing I noticed which I haven't been able to figure out. SQ phones prime time and gives his little speech about Quinn Insurance having 'loadsamoney'- which many reported as a rejection of the Anglo bid, yet the directors of QIL spoke very favourably about the Anglo proposal. Now surely if they had plenty of money Quinn wouldn't want to lose control for the sake of an extra €150m liquidity?

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 03:09:02 PM
Sadly it lools like the whole Quinn group would suffer if the Insurance company either fails or if it is sold off.

There'd be a whole lot more than 700 families effected.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 13, 2010, 04:26:38 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on April 13, 2010, 02:18:59 PM

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.

Well for one it will stop any further guarantees being made over QIL's assets.

The regulator has no duty towards the employees, so if he thinks the best option for policyholders is a sale to a big player like AXA/Aviva then thats what happens. And for my 2p I don't think the actions were necessarily to make a point. The regulator seemed to be in a situation where the 2nd largest insurer in the state had made massive guarantees to bail out its parent group. What if there were more guarantees? What if there were further massive losses in the parent group?

How could he continue to allow a situation to continue where an insurance company is run as a cash cow to support another entity?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 04:29:42 PM
Quote from: scud on April 13, 2010, 04:26:38 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on April 13, 2010, 02:18:59 PM

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.

Well for one it will stop any further guarantees being made over QIL's assets.

The regulator has no duty towards the employees, so if he thinks the best option for policyholders is a sale to a big player like AXA/Aviva then thats what happens. And for my 2p I don't think the actions were necessarily to make a point. The regulator seemed to be in a situation where the 2nd largest insurer in the state had made massive guarantees to bail out its parent group. What if there were more guarantees? What if there were further massive losses in the parent group?

How could he continue to allow a situation to continue where an insurance company is run as a cash cow to support another entity?


Was / is that the case ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: no mo do yakamo on April 13, 2010, 06:47:26 PM
Thats what will happen if Anglo get their hands on it!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 13, 2010, 09:01:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 04:29:42 PM
Quote from: scud on April 13, 2010, 04:26:38 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on April 13, 2010, 02:18:59 PM

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.

Well for one it will stop any further guarantees being made over QIL's assets.

The regulator has no duty towards the employees, so if he thinks the best option for policyholders is a sale to a big player like AXA/Aviva then thats what happens. And for my 2p I don't think the actions were necessarily to make a point. The regulator seemed to be in a situation where the 2nd largest insurer in the state had made massive guarantees to bail out its parent group. What if there were more guarantees? What if there were further massive losses in the parent group?

How could he continue to allow a situation to continue where an insurance company is run as a cash cow to support another entity?


Was / is that the case ?.
sean quinn said as much himself, he said that given the money he was making at Quinn Insurance he'd be able to pay off his anglo debts in no time, or words to that effect.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 10:41:42 PM
Quinn interim director appointed 

Quinn Insurance employs 600 people in County Fermanagh
A company has been assigned to the Quinn Group to provide financial restructuring services.

It was announced on Tuesday that Talbot Hughes McKillop LLP (THM) will assist the company to "work through the Group's current issues".

THM partner, Mr Murdoch McKillop, has also been appointed interim executive director of Quinn Group Ltd.
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gortnaleck on April 13, 2010, 11:51:23 PM
I never hear anything about his brother Peter anymore. Has he left the company ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on April 14, 2010, 11:03:36 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 13, 2010, 09:01:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 04:29:42 PM
Quote from: scud on April 13, 2010, 04:26:38 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on April 13, 2010, 02:18:59 PM

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.

Well for one it will stop any further guarantees being made over QIL's assets.

The regulator has no duty towards the employees, so if he thinks the best option for policyholders is a sale to a big player like AXA/Aviva then thats what happens. And for my 2p I don't think the actions were necessarily to make a point. The regulator seemed to be in a situation where the 2nd largest insurer in the state had made massive guarantees to bail out its parent group. What if there were more guarantees? What if there were further massive losses in the parent group?

How could he continue to allow a situation to continue where an insurance company is run as a cash cow to support another entity?


Was / is that the case ?.
sean quinn said as much himself, he said that given the money he was making at Quinn Insurance he'd be able to pay off his anglo debts in no time, or words to that effect.

Forgive my ignorance on the legalities of this but what's wrong with Sean Quinn using a wing of his company to shore up his personal liabilities? I'm sure it was his quarry/building materials/hostilery business which provided the colateral to buy the insurance wing of BUPA or whoever it was pulled out in the first place.

If he's broke the law, prosecute him through the courts but let a viable company still run as such. Going into administration is a stigma which will put people off taking out or renewing policies and will drive the business into the ground.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on April 14, 2010, 11:28:17 AM
He is using others peoples money to shore up his liabilities. When the Independent Insurance company went bang in 2001, thousands of people lost their money. People are still paying off personal liability claims nearly 10 years later. He could not be allowed to continue to break regulatory laws.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on April 14, 2010, 01:34:33 PM
Quote from: scud on April 13, 2010, 04:26:38 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on April 13, 2010, 02:18:59 PM

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.

Well for one it will stop any further guarantees being made over QIL's assets.

The regulator has no duty towards the employees, so if he thinks the best option for policyholders is a sale to a big player like AXA/Aviva then thats what happens. And for my 2p I don't think the actions were necessarily to make a point. The regulator seemed to be in a situation where the 2nd largest insurer in the state had made massive guarantees to bail out its parent group. What if there were more guarantees? What if there were further massive losses in the parent group?

How could he continue to allow a situation to continue where an insurance company is run as a cash cow to support another entity?
If the Regulator has no duty of care over Irish people then what exactly is his role? To apply legislation at the expense of the Irish people?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 14, 2010, 03:41:19 PM
Quote from: trileacman on April 14, 2010, 01:34:33 PM

If the Regulator has no duty of care over Irish people then what exactly is his role? To apply legislation at the expense of the Irish people?

His duty is solely towards policy holders of QIL.

What if QIL's solvency levels were far worse than disclosed or the banks called in their loans and at the same time QIL encountered a glut of big claims? Can you imagine the mess if there was a major storm etc and QIL couldn't cover the claims?

I hope a way out can be found for the sake of the workers, because if the Quinn Group folds its adios to the Fermanagh/Cavan/Lietrim border area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on April 15, 2010, 02:11:35 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0415/quinn.html


Quinn to withdraw opposition to administrators
Thursday, 15 April 2010 13:57

The Quinn Group is to tell the High Court that it will not object to the permanent appointment of administrators to Quinn Insurance.

RTÉ News has learned the development could come before the courts today.

A spokesman for the Quinn group has declined to comment.

This move marks a significant shift in the position of the Quinn Group in recent days.

It is understood the company has now come to the conclusion that Quinn Insurance would have a better chance if it was dealing with a full-time administrator.

The company has been increasingly concerned about the damage it is suffering as a result of the ban on it doing business in Northern Ireland and the UK.

If the administrators are appointed, it would clear the way for them to sell the insurance company if they see fit.

Yesterday, Financial Regulator Matthew Elderfield told an Oireachtas Committee that the motivation of his office was to protect policy holders.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on April 15, 2010, 04:21:40 PM


Permanent Administrators have been appointed ...

Quinn Insurance get permanent administrators


Thursday, 15 April 2010 16:07
The High Court has appointed permanent administrators to Quinn Insurance.

Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns was told that the company was no longer opposing the Financial Regulator's application to have the provisional administrators appointed at the end of last month made permanent.

The High Court was told there had been considerable progress made between the parties since the matter was last in court on Monday.

AdvertisementSenior Counsel Michael Cush said the company was now consenting to an order appointing permanent administrators to Quinn Insurance.

Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns said that having read the material presented to him, he was satisfied this was an appropriate case in which to make such an order.

He said it didn't follow that that meant every assertion made by the regulator was accepted or every assertion made by Quinn Insurance was rejected.

However, he said there was sufficient material before him to make the order.

The judge appointed Paul McCann and Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton as administrators to the company.

He also granted them the power to act separately if necessary.

Mr Justice Kearns said it was important to stress, particularly in view of the concerns of employees that part of the statutory function of the administrators was to carry on the business as a going concern with a view to placing it on a sound commercial footing.

Lawyers for the administrators said they wished to deliver their first report in a month.

The case will be mentioned before the court again on the 20 May.

In a statement, Jim Quigley, Chairman of Quinn Insurace Ltd, said:'This decision has been taken after very careful consideration.

'We have concluded that, given what has happened, it is in the best interests of the Company, our employees and policyholders that, as a matter of urgency, we work closely with the Administrators and the Financial Regulator to get the situation resolved as quickly as possible.

In particular, we would hope that working together we can find a way to re-commence business in the United Kingdom.'


The company has been increasingly concerned about the damage it is suffering as a result of the ban on it doing business in Northern Ireland and the UK.

Yesterday, Financial Regulator Matthew Elderfield told an Oireachtas Committee that the motivation of his office was to protect policy holders.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 15, 2010, 07:13:40 PM
What can we read into this permanent appointment and the assertion that much progress has been made by the parties since Monday and consequently Quinn's withdrawl of his opposition ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 15, 2010, 07:17:05 PM
6.1 news seemed to infer that this is all the doing of the new director, mckillop?  a debt restructuring expert from scotland, they think that Quinn Insurance will be sold off to help the quinn's pay back their debts and that it'll be all change within the group from there on in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 15, 2010, 07:20:44 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 15, 2010, 07:17:05 PM
6.1 news seemed to infer that this is all the doing of the new director, mckillop?  a debt restructuring expert from scotland, they think that Quinn Insurance will be sold off to help the quinn's pay back their debts and that it'll be all change within the group from there on in.


How much is the insurance business valued at ?

If it making £360million a year, it bounds to be worth a few billion ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on April 15, 2010, 09:48:06 PM
From another website, here is some commentary on the profitability of  QI ..

No claim as to the correctness of this info, but it is based on the 2008 report from the financial regulator ...

http://www.politics.ie/2600191-post73.html (http://www.politics.ie/2600191-post73.html)

2008 Insurance Returns on IFSRA Website
http://www.financialregulator.ie/pub...20version).pdf (http://www.financialregulator.ie/pub...20version).pdf)
Premium: c€1.1bn
Profit/Loss: Loss of €58m
Assets: c€1.8bn of which 0.5bn is classified as property
Liabilities: c€1.5bn
Solvency Cushion: c€0.36bn

Regulator Information €0.45bn of assets are impaired by guarantee
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 16, 2010, 09:18:17 AM
Bid to end ban on Quinn UK trade

The administrators of Quinn Insurance have presented proposals to the Irish financial regulator aimed at reopening parts of the firm's UK arm. The regulator said it would give them "prompt consideration". The company was banned from writing new business in the UK last month, jeopardising hundreds of jobs in its Fermanagh offices. On Thursday the High Court in Dublin appointed permanent administrators to Quinn Insurance. That followed a dramatic u-turn by the company when it dropped its objection to the appointment of administrators. Quinn Insurance had been in temporary administration after the regulator raised concerns about its solvency levels. The group's owner, Sean Quinn, had been highly critical of the move. The administrators, Paul McCann and Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton, have asked the regulator to lift the ban in regard to certain business lines of Quinn Insurance in the UK. A report in the Irish Times on Friday suggests that Quinn would not seek to re-enter some parts of the UK market, specifically professional indemnity insurance and some motor insurance cover. In a statement, the regulator said: "The administrator is to forward further details regarding these proposals and we will give these prompt consideration. "We remain encouraged by the nature and quality of our engagement with the administrator in this and other respects."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8624482.stm
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on April 16, 2010, 10:06:44 AM
Support Quinn Group - Creating Irish Jobs
ONE
IN 8



Fermanagh Herald
BY NUALA MCALOON
WITH the entire community across Fermanagh anxiously awaiting the outcome of next Monday's High Court decision on the future of Quinn Insurance, the sheer enormity of the threat facing Fermanagh's economic future is starting to sink in.

With fears widespread that a bad result for Quinn Insurance next Monday could have a domino effect on the other ends of the business, including glass and cement, it is feared the county could be facing economic meltdown in a worst case scenario.

It is estimated that as many as one in eight of the Fermanagh workforce are directly employed by the Quinn Group.

With 3,000 employees working on both sides of the Fermanagh/Cavan border (1,500 in each county) and several more local businesses indirectly depending on the group to sustain the productivity of their outlets, the harsh reality of a worst case scenario in the ongoing Quinn Insurance dispute, is becoming much clearer and more devastating for the county this week.

However, amid the doom and gloom, hope does remain for the Quinn Group this week. The group said it was pleased following Monday's decision by the High Court to adjourn the financial regulator's application to have permanent administrators appointed to Quinn Insurance (QIL) for one week.

Yesterday afternoon (Tuesday), the group appointed Talbot Hughes McKillop LL, a financial restructuring firm to provide financial restructuring services to the company. In addition, THM Partner Mr Murdoch McKillop has been appointed as an interim executive director of Quinn Group Ltd.

The chief executive of Quinn Group, Liam McCaffrey, said: "Mr McKillop's role will be to assist the board and the executive management team to successfully work through the group's current issues and to ensure that executive management are not excessively diverted from the vitally important job of running our manufacturing business."

According to the latest census employment figures (2007) - there were then only 14,852 people in full-time employment here, of which 26 per cent worked in the public sector. With 1,500 working in the Quinn group north of the border and many Fermanagh people also working at the cement works just over the border at Gortmullan and Quinn Insurance headquarters in Cavan town, the group is clearly the single biggest employer in the county.

Since the last census, various sectors of the employment industry have been hit hard by the economic climate, not least in construction which then counted for 1,585 of Fermanagh's full-time jobs.

Meanwhile, in a statement following Monday's court hearing, the group said it was hopeful that the adjournment will provide time to progress meaningful discussions towards an overall resolution.

"Notwithstanding recent issues, we believe the underlying QIL business is profitable and that the operational model is robust, having brought much needed competition to the market and improved service levels to consumers.

"The Quinn Group believes that it is in the best interests of all stakeholders, and primarily the policyholders and staff, that this model is allowed to continue under whatever solution emerges. In particular we would urge the reopening of business in the UK as a matter of urgency in order to ensure sustainable future employment and preserve value in QIL.

"The Quinn Group will continue in its efforts to find an overall solution that secures the long-term position of the business and that of its employees who have been so supportive to the company, the group and the Quinn family in recent weeks."

The court hearing will take place on Monday next, April 19.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 16, 2010, 10:12:31 AM
That bottom bit is out of date now as there's not going to be a court hearing on Monday anymore.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 16, 2010, 10:14:39 AM
Most articles I have read this morning are saying that it's over as regards Quinns ownership of Quinn Insurance which obviously will have serious consequences for the other parts of gthe group.


Quinn is trying to pay his debts.


Most of the other big boys would have gone cleaned the companies and gone bust at this stage, cleaned up the debt and started again.


Quinn is trying to do pay his way but it's not acceptable.


Given what some of the bankers have got away with, I can't but feel some sympathy for him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 16, 2010, 10:19:32 AM
My gut tells me that the Insurance employees can breathe a wee bit easier with this development but that employees in the wider Group might be sweating a bit more this morning??  What's the feeling on the "inside" supersars??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 16, 2010, 10:31:32 AM
Still up in the air QMP to be honest. QD doesn't follow the same sort of structures that other insurance companies do so people are still a wee bit worried about changes ahead. But in saying that I'd imagine that the UK market will be opened again shortly which should ease a bit of stress.
I think the other QG employees will be happy enough as well as there was talk that everything could have ended up going. I'd say this was there is a greater chance of SQ holding on to the rest of it now. This should seriously reduce the debt owed and should bring it into a more managable area.

I still don't believe we're seen the last twist in this story yet for QD.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 16, 2010, 10:50:55 AM
Quote from: unitedireland on April 16, 2010, 10:06:44 AM
Support Quinn Group - Creating Irish Jobs
ONE
IN 8



Fermanagh Herald

According to the latest census employment figures (2007) - there were then only 14,852 people in full-time employment here, of which 26 per cent worked in the public sector. With 1,500 working in the Quinn group north of the border and many Fermanagh people also working at the cement works just over the border at Gortmullan and Quinn Insurance headquarters in Cavan town, the group is clearly the single biggest employer in the county.


I thought Norn Irn got rid of counties years ago. Is it just the Tadhgs who think in terms of counties or do the other half do so too?  I imagine the GAA thing is very important in terms of keeping a sense of county belonging together. I mean where would Tyrone people be with their superiority complex over Ormaugh people without the GAA?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 16, 2010, 11:20:09 AM
You're exactly right, something I've mused over a while: the GAA is almost solely responsible for county identity in the north. Whereas I find that most nationalists would know which county towns are in, and would know which county all their acquaintances are from, i find that this would be vastly less so with the other side.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 16, 2010, 01:13:23 PM
Message to all Nordies

It is surprising the "only" 26% of Fermanagh wallas work for the Crown considering the overall percentage in the public sector for Norn Irn is closer to 2/3rds. So Fermanagh seems to be losing out.

I read in the FT that the average Norn Irn subvention from the hated British State works out to a mere £20,000 per family when you include everything.  It's good that at least some of the money goes into GAA and is thus used productively. How could NI survive without British taxpayers?  Was this dependency the ultimate shoot yourself in the foot (rather than the knee) result of the IRA's campaign of insurrection that started in the late 60s ?

Given these numbers isn't it pointless to vote along sectarian lines in the upcoming elections?     Ye should all vote for Brit parties since they are the ones who sanction your vast subsidies . Isn't Sinn Fein's abstention absolutely pointless unless accompanied by the blanket refusal of all Shinner voters to hand back their subsidy? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 16, 2010, 01:23:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 16, 2010, 01:13:23 PM
Message to all Nordies

It is surprising the "only" 26% of Fermanagh wallas work for the Crown considering the overall percentage in the public sector for Norn Irn is closer to 2/3rds. So Fermanagh seems to be losing out.

I read in the FT that the average Norn Irn subvention from the hated British State works out to a mere £20,000 per family when you include everything.  It's good that at least some of the money goes into GAA and is thus used productively. How could NI survive without British taxpayers?  Was this dependency the ultimate shoot yourself in the foot (rather than the knee) result of the IRA's campaign of insurrection that started in the late 60s ?

Given these numbers isn't it pointless to vote along sectarian lines in the upcoming elections?     Ye should all vote for Brit parties since they are the ones who sanction your vast subsidies . Isn't Sinn Fein's abstention absolutely pointless unless accompanied by the blanket refusal of all Shinner voters to hand back their subsidy? 
?

Emotive word there for us Nordies seafoid...on the blanket, blanket defence...on a par with "puke" ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Ulick on April 16, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 16, 2010, 01:13:23 PM
Message to all Nordies

It is surprising the "only" 26% of Fermanagh wallas work for the Crown considering the overall percentage in the public sector for Norn Irn is closer to 2/3rds. So Fermanagh seems to be losing out.

I read in the FT that the average Norn Irn subvention from the hated British State works out to a mere £20,000 per family when you include everything.  It's good that at least some of the money goes into GAA and is thus used productively. How could NI survive without British taxpayers?  Was this dependency the ultimate shoot yourself in the foot (rather than the knee) result of the IRA's campaign of insurrection that started in the late 60s ?

Given these numbers isn't it pointless to vote along sectarian lines in the upcoming elections?     Ye should all vote for Brit parties since they are the ones who sanction your vast subsidies . Isn't Sinn Fein's abstention absolutely pointless unless accompanied by the blanket refusal of all Shinner voters to hand back their subsidy? 
?

Are you assuming we want it to survive and is the fact that the north is so dependent on Brit subsidies evidence enough that it has failed? IMO it's that Brit economic subvention to pacify and protect the unionist state which is the biggest barrier ro economic growth i.e. there is no incentive for the private sector to expand.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerry on April 16, 2010, 10:31:55 PM
heard today 170 temporary  jobs to get the p45 this monday due to downturn in business
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 16, 2010, 10:52:00 PM
Quote from: gerry on April 16, 2010, 10:31:55 PM
heard today 170 temporary  jobs to get the p45 this monday due to downturn in business


Not good news.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: never kickt a ball on April 19, 2010, 12:01:52 AM
Let's hope they haven't insured many airlines for loss of business?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 19, 2010, 11:33:30 AM
Quote from: never kickt a ball on April 19, 2010, 12:01:52 AM
Let's hope they haven't insured many airlines for loss of business?

:o :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 21, 2010, 09:23:42 AM
What I've been reading as past couple of days would lead you to believe that the Regulator has come round a bit and is a lot happier that the business is going in the right direction and that there would appear to be a definite plan in place with regard to writing new business outside of Ireland and with regard to ratios.


Would this be accurate Super Sars ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 21, 2010, 10:00:27 AM
To be honest OM it's hard to tell. It seems that they have worked out alot of the problems and the regulator seems to be happier with the Company and it's profits. However they still haven't opened the UK markets which is a major market for QI. I'd imagine the UK FR might be looking into things aswell before they can go ahead to trade there again. But I'm hoping that all can be sorted pretty quickly. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 21, 2010, 10:22:42 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 21, 2010, 10:00:27 AM
To be honest OM it's hard to tell. It seems that they have worked out alot of the problems and the regulator seems to be happier with the Company and it's profits. However they still haven't opened the UK markets which is a major market for QI. I'd imagine the UK FR might be looking into things aswell before they can go ahead to trade there again. But I'm hoping that all can be sorted pretty quickly.


Do you get the sense that ownership of QI will ultimately rest with the Quinn Group after all this is resolved ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 21, 2010, 10:54:50 AM
Personal View, I think he'll hold on to it. How accurate that is I don't know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 21, 2010, 05:17:37 PM
Quinn's UK trade ban is lifted     



Ireland's Financial Regulator has lifted restrictions placed on Quinn Insurance Ltd that prevented it from issuing new insurance cover in the UK.

On Wednesday the regulator said it would allow the firm to write new insurance cover for provisional licence holders in the United Kingdom.

The office said it had taken the decision after careful consideration.

The company is in administration after the regulator raised concerns about its solvency.

The regulator said Wednesday's decision was based on information provided by the administrators and it had also consulted the UK's Financial Services Authority.

The statement from the regulator indicated that there had been improvements in the company's underwriting model and "significant" strengthening of its pricing structure.

The company was prevented from writing new business in the UK after the regulator expressed concerns about the financial position of the company, particularly in relation to its solvency, and had the business placed in administration to protect Quinn's customers.

Most of the UK business is processed in Quinn's Fermanagh operation and the ban had put hundreds of jobs at risk.

Workers across Ireland protested over the decision. The company said the insurance business was losing 1.5m euros a day as a result of the suspension.

The Quinn Group last week withdrew its opposition to the appointment of permanent administrators to the insurer.

The regulator and the insurer said the move was in the best interests of 1.3 million policyholders.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 21, 2010, 07:02:55 PM
While it's good news that there has been movement it's still not enough to bring any great hope. It's only opened up the market for provisional licence holders in the UK and not for the whole market. It's only a tiny % of what QI needs. But as I said at least it's movement and hopefully they'll widen it to include more segments in the next few days.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bensars on April 29, 2010, 10:37:01 AM
Heard on the radio that the administrator is recommending 800 job losses at Quinns. The employees are to be told in detail tomorrow.

Big blow for a lot of families
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 29, 2010, 10:39:23 AM
Quote from: Bensars on April 29, 2010, 10:37:01 AM
Heard on the radio that the administrator is recommending 800 job losses at Quinns. The employees are to be told in detail tomorrow.

Big blow for a lot of families

Not good news.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 29, 2010, 10:40:06 AM
Quote from: Bensars on April 29, 2010, 10:37:01 AM
Heard on the radio that the administrator is recommending 800 job losses at Quinns. The employees are to be told in detail tomorrow.

Big blow for a lot of families

According to the local paper here the job losses will be spread between, Enniskillen, Cavan, Dublin and I believe England.  Not good news nonetheless.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 29, 2010, 10:44:58 AM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on April 29, 2010, 10:40:06 AM
Quote from: Bensars on April 29, 2010, 10:37:01 AM
Heard on the radio that the administrator is recommending 800 job losses at Quinns. The employees are to be told in detail tomorrow.

Big blow for a lot of families

According to the local paper here the job losses will be spread between, Enniskillen, Cavan, Dublin and I believe England.  Not good news nonetheless.


According to the papers the job losses will be in the South.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 29, 2010, 11:10:06 AM
I don't think so OM. There is chat that they expect the 800 between Cavan, Enniskillen, Navan and Manchester. So sad news alright for alot of people.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 29, 2010, 11:22:14 AM
how are the Laing O'Rourke negotiations going?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 29, 2010, 11:33:38 AM
Althought the Laing O Rourke thing is in relation to Quinn Group and not insurance i don't think there is much in it as far as I've heard. I know they were interested in the Cement and I'd be surprised if SQ let that go. But again you just never know these days.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 29, 2010, 01:21:35 PM
Representatives of Quinn Insurance employees have told an Oireachtas Committee it is 'completely outrageous' that workers learned of possible redundancies at the company through the media.

The joint administrators of Quinn Insurance have drawn up plans to make around 800 staff redundant as part of a downsizing of the company.

Workers' representatives this morning told the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment that they have a solution to the difficulties faced by Quinn Insurance.
They want the company to be allowed to resume all of its UK market activities, which they say is the only way of preventing a disastrous impact on the Irish economy.

The five members of the workers' action group told the committee that Quinn Insurance is losing 2,000 of its UK customers a day.

They added that the company is eager to restart all its UK business and is well equipped to do so.

The administrators of Quinn Insurance will brief staff on their plans tomorrow afternoon.

However, workers' representatives say they want the matter clarified today, adding that employees should not have to sit through another night to learn their fates.

Workers' representative Mona Bermingham said staff were extremely fearful for their futures.

She said: 'This is the first we've heard of it - we had been given no indication of numbers or locations.

'It is an utter disgrace and shows utter disrespect to employees that they should learn their fate through the media.

'There's a lot of worry, disillusionment, dejection - it's going to have a massive impact. This is not something we'll be accepting easily.'

The Committee is to ask the Financial Regulator to allow Quinn Insurance access to profitable sections of its business in Northern Ireland the UK.


800 staff represents about one third of the total number of people employed by the company.

Paul McCann and Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton have drawn up plans that involve redundancies ranging from 550 to more than 900. It is understood they will seek redundancies at the upper end of that range.

The restructuring relates primarily to Quinn Insurance's businesses in the UK, many of which have been unprofitable.

The insurer is currently being allowed to only partially re-enter the insurance market there.

However, most of the job losses will be in the Republic.

Much of the UK business is handled by staff at Quinn's offices in Dublin, Cavan and Navan. The centres at Enniskillen and Manchester will also be seriously affected.

The redundancies will be voluntary and will take place over a period of time.

While the details of the package to be offered to employees have not been revealed, it is understood workers will be offered more than the statutory redundancy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 29, 2010, 06:54:31 PM
Just getting news now that the UK private car market will be reopening. Great news if true whether or not it'll helps keep jobs is another matter.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on April 29, 2010, 10:10:19 PM
About time! i know the regulator is just trying to do his job but a english man should not be deciding the future of irish families up and down the country
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 29, 2010, 10:30:32 PM
Unfortunately things aren't good. They are saying that they've opened up the uk market. But what they aren't saying is that they've forced premiums up that much that there's no hope of selling any in the UK. So I'd imagine all jobs cuts will have to go ahead as I can't see them building up any sort of market share now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on April 29, 2010, 10:53:33 PM
It was always going to happen and anyone who thought otherwise was deluding themselves. I feel sorry for the people who will lose their jobs effectively they did nothing wrong and it is the people at the top who will invariably be looked after when the whole thing settles.

Chances of Quinn rebuilding their market share dwindled further each day they were in administration and in the insurance game if your name is sullied at all there are enough competitors out there who will feed off it and put you down. It's been a full month now and I think Quinn will not be able to come back from this. Very disappointing!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 30, 2010, 12:19:07 AM
Quote from: unitedireland on April 29, 2010, 10:10:19 PM
About time! i know the regulator is just trying to do his job but a english man should not be deciding the future of irish families up and down the country

::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 30, 2010, 08:49:19 AM
What has changed between the administrator coming in and stopping UK trade, and it being permitted again yesterday?

The regulator obviously spotted a problem, or he wouldnt have come in, but its the methods which seem to me to have exacerbated the problem. Surely there would have been better, quieter ways to acheive whatever has been achieved in the last month?!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 30, 2010, 09:29:29 AM
Quote from: unitedireland on April 29, 2010, 10:10:19 PM
About time! i know the regulator is just trying to do his job but a english man should not be deciding the future of irish families up and down the country

Good argument to help the Quinn workers ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 10:12:59 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 29, 2010, 10:30:32 PM
Unfortunately things aren't good. They are saying that they've opened up the uk market. But what they aren't saying is that they've forced premiums up that much that there's no hope of selling any in the UK. So I'd imagine all jobs cuts will have to go ahead as I can't see them building up any sort of market share now.



What sort of % increases have been imposed ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 11:11:14 AM
I don't want to get into it too much on here OM but big enough to make it unrealistic that they'll build up any sort of market share again. And this is in a sector that they have admitted was profitable before all this. Just makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 11:17:03 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 11:11:14 AM
I don't want to get into it too much on here OM but big enough to make it unrealistic that they'll build up any sort of market share again. And this is in a sector that they have admitted was profitable before all this. Just makes no sense to me.
[/b]



It doesn't make a lot of sense to a lot of people.  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orior on April 30, 2010, 12:15:07 PM
I got a letter last week saying that they could not renew my car tax. Would yesterdays news have changed that?

Emmm, maybe I should just phone them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 01:01:30 PM
I think things are going to go from bad to worse shortly.  :(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 30, 2010, 01:18:39 PM
Quote from: Orior on April 30, 2010, 12:15:07 PM
I got a letter last week saying that they could not renew my car tax. Would yesterdays news have changed that?

Emmm, maybe I should just phone them.

f**k me, they're going under and you're trying to wrangle favours from them... :P
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orior on April 30, 2010, 01:43:27 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 30, 2010, 01:18:39 PM
Quote from: Orior on April 30, 2010, 12:15:07 PM
I got a letter last week saying that they could not renew my car tax. Would yesterdays news have changed that?

Emmm, maybe I should just phone them.

f**k me, they're going under and you're trying to wrangle favours from them... :P

Gulp! Yeah, I meant car insurance
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:25:43 PM
MASSIVE NEWS


Quinn decides to sell insurance business
  Friday, 30 April 2010 15:18
The Quinn Group says it has 'reluctantly' decided that it should sell its Quinn Insurance business.

The statement came as Quinn Insurance workers awaited news this afternoon of how many jobs are to go in the firm's offices around Ireland, the North and Britain.

There is speculation that up to 1,000 staff could lose their jobs over the coming months.

AdvertisementA Quinn Group statement said that it was 'greatly saddened' by the redundancies which are expected to be announced by the insurance company's joint administrators.

Quinn Group said that, in view of the funds needed to meet the requirements laid down by the Financial Regulator, the future of Quinn Insurance was probably best protected under new ownership.

'Accordingly we will be working closely with the joint administrators to see if this objective can be achieved in as short a time as possible with the hope that this will protect the maximum number of jobs,' the statement said.


Workers at Quinn Insurance will find out later today how many jobs are to go in the company's offices around Ireland and the UK.

The workers will be briefed at 3.30pm this afternoon. A press conference will be held near the company's head office in Cavan an hour later.

Administrator staff will begin briefing workers in all the Quinn Insurance offices in Cavan, Blanchardstown, Navan, Dublin city, Enniskillen, Derrylin, Manchester and London.

There are around 2,400 people working in Quinn Insurance. 1,400 of them are involved in the selling and servicing of policies in Northern Ireland and Britain.

By this evening, up to 1,000 workers may be facing voluntary redundancy.

While job losses were inevitable for sometime in Quinn Insurance, the workers want the Financial Regulator, Matthew Elderfield, to lift more of the ban on the company doing business in the crucial UK markets in order to help secure more jobs.

In a statement Kevin Lunny, operations director of the Quinn Group, said the company's insurance business had outperformed the market every year since 2005 in terms of profitability.

He said: 'We expected to be at least in line, if not ahead of, competitors for 2009.'

'The insurance business is expected to make a loss for 2009 in the UK market in line with competitors,' he added.

The Regulator has argued that unprofitability in the UK business has been one of the reasons why Quinn Insurance has been restricted from doing business in that market.

Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, local TD and Minister for Agriculture Brendan Smyth said he understood the worry and concerns of employees.

However, Mr Smyth said the Government had nothing to do with the decision.

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has said the thoughts of everyone are with the Quinn workers at this time.

He went on to say that Quinn Insurance has a viable future.

Fine Gael's Enterprise Spokesman Leo Varadkar said he was hopeful that some of the expected job losses could be prevented if another company were to takeover Quinn Insurance and the business emerged from administration.

printable version
share this
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:29:55 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:29:55 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:29:55 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.

By all accounts the insurance business was keeping the rest of the group afloat. It doesn't look good
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:52:03 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:29:55 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.

By all accounts the insurance business was keeping the rest of the group afloat. It doesn't look good


But maybe by selling off the insurance business, he'll be able to straighten out the other parts of the group ??


Here's hoping anyway.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 04:05:09 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:52:03 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:29:55 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.

By all accounts the insurance business was keeping the rest of the group afloat. It doesn't look good


But maybe by selling off the insurance business, he'll be able to straighten out the other parts of the group ??


Here's hoping anyway.

Yeah, that's true. I wonder who might buy them? Will they try and keep jobs in Enniskillen?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 04:17:39 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 01:01:30 PM
I think things are going to go from bad to worse shortly.  :(

Had heard rumours about this earlier. Gutted by the news to be honest. But in fairness I think SQ is right as there's been that much damage to QI that I don't think it could have recovered. The adminstrator has strangled the life out of it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 04:23:08 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 04:05:09 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:52:03 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:29:55 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.

By all accounts the insurance business was keeping the rest of the group afloat. It doesn't look good


But maybe by selling off the insurance business, he'll be able to straighten out the other parts of the group ??


Here's hoping anyway.

Yeah, that's true. I wonder who might buy them? Will they try and keep jobs in Enniskillen?


There'll be plenty who will want to buy, obviously at a price.


I'd say they'll keep a presence locally alright.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 04:50:05 PM
I wouldn't be so sure OM. If it's a another large insurance firm they might have the call centres abroad. Or if it's a UK one then they'll already have uk based offices. They definitely won't keep all the offices anyway and I'd imagine they would be quicker keeping the Q Building in Dublin than any of the other offices.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 30, 2010, 04:53:37 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:52:03 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:40:16 PM
Quote from: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:29:55 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.

By all accounts the insurance business was keeping the rest of the group afloat. It doesn't look good


But maybe by selling off the insurance business, he'll be able to straighten out the other parts of the group ??


Here's hoping anyway.

The other parts of the business were much more susceptible to the recession, esp the concrete packaging etc. The glass is mebbe the only one that can be straightened out? Thats that region fucked. Theres bound to have been better ways for this to have been handled.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 05:21:51 PM
I'd fear for the group aswell to be honest. QI was the golden egg for SQ. Without it, the paying of depts will be alot harder. The only thing for the area itself is that alot of the groups activities will be tied to the area through the locations, like the cement factory etc. If the group was sold (And i hope to god it isn't) alot of the jobs should still be retained in that area. Or so you would hope. But no doubt there would be jobs cuts.

I know it's going to be a very nervous time for a lot of people now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on May 02, 2010, 01:19:24 AM
Quinn Group before the financial regulator - Problems but making profit and creating Irish jobs.
After 900 jobs GONE - Thanks Matthew

Hopefully the pasport office is in full flow again because Fermanagh, Cavan, Monaghan, Letrim and Dublin will see some emigration very soon. No jobs no prospects especially in the boarder counties.

Pity the Dublin 4 brigaide and Mat have never visited the boarder areas they might realise how dependent the area is on Quinn Group.

Hopefully Matthew will get a redundancy package and FUCKS of back to ENGLAND.

Michael Collins would be rolling in his grave
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 02, 2010, 08:36:27 AM
Have to say I agree with unitedireland although I realise my thinking is not considering the letter of the law and all the legalise stuff. I was brought up in Cavan in the 80's and I remember as a child heading north for the petrol on shitty pot holed roads to meet the smooth roads of the north as soon as you crossed the border. There was 1 factory in Cavan - Pauwels. Killeshandra has close McCormacs and fletchers mill, Killeshandra Co-Op was emplying half what it used to. The Celtic tiger came and Cavan seen no investment from the outside (nor did any of the other border counties except maybe Louth). We did have the promise of Terradyne setting up for 100's of jobs and the place was full of suited ministers bestowing this great gift upon us but that never happened. All that time anything that happened in Cavan was developed from within. Sean Quinn has a legendary status in Cavan, Fermanagh and the other border counties because he made jobs when no politician was to be seen. He made 100's and 100's of jobs. He started in cement and made a success of it. He built a huge Hotel in the middle of nowhere and everyone thought he was mad but he made a success out of that. He went into bottle making and made a success of that. Then insurance and then he did the whole country a favour by taking over Bupa when it decided to leave and leave the healthcare industry at the mercy of VHI. He's done insulation, pubs and others and made a success out of it and all the time creating jobs. He lives local to where he is from, he is an irish resident and pays his taxes, he has not farmed any jobs out even though many of them are tailor made for Indian call centers. Now clearly he made a mistake and took a very wreckless (in hindsight) punt on a Bank, put his company at risk and lost a massive amount of money. That is the good versus the bad. Taking a common sense look surely anyone can see the good surely outweighs the bad. Surely this means that something should be worked out with Quinn to sort this all out. We can give banks billions and billions and I suggest we get f**k all in return so surely Quinn could be helped out - after all he is committed and capable of paying it back in time. No. True to form our heroic leaders allow administrators to go in there, make an example out of the greatest job makers in the country, drive a steak into the heart of his business and destroy the lives of 900 people. What will happen now is that the group will get sold to another insurance company and those jobs left will be consolidated into that companies existing jobs. God knows where that might be but it could easily be in another country. The Quinn group will struggle and will probably let people go and with all the job losses in Quinn we will see all the other dependent businesses go to the wall. The politicans will hide behind  the law and true to form they will leave the people of the border counties to sort it out themselves as they have for 90 years. This country is full of  talentless wasters who owe lots and have not a cent left to their name and they get off scot free and a man and a company that did so much for this region get pulverised because they have some assets left. I'm sorry for folks but there is no justice or fairness in this no matter what the rules or the law says. Thanks a million Fine Fail and the Greens for looking after the border counties and I hope the electorate give ye back exactly what you deserve.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 02, 2010, 12:02:31 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 02, 2010, 08:36:27 AM
Have to say I agree with unitedireland although I realise my thinking is not considering the letter of the law and all the legalise stuff. I was brought up in Cavan in the 80's and I remember as a child heading north for the petrol on shitty pot holed roads to meet the smooth roads of the north as soon as you crossed the border. There was 1 factory in Cavan - Pauwels. Killeshandra has close McCormacs and fletchers mill, Killeshandra Co-Op was emplying half what it used to. The Celtic tiger came and Cavan seen no investment from the outside (nor did any of the other border counties except maybe Louth). We did have the promise of Terradyne setting up for 100's of jobs and the place was full of suited ministers bestowing this great gift upon us but that never happened. All that time anything that happened in Cavan was developed from within. Sean Quinn has a legendary status in Cavan, Fermanagh and the other border counties because he made jobs when no politician was to be seen. He made 100's and 100's of jobs. He started in cement and made a success of it. He built a huge Hotel in the middle of nowhere and everyone thought he was mad but he made a success out of that. He went into bottle making and made a success of that. Then insurance and then he did the whole country a favour by taking over Bupa when it decided to leave and leave the healthcare industry at the mercy of VHI. He's done insulation, pubs and others and made a success out of it and all the time creating jobs. He lives local to where he is from, he is an irish resident and pays his taxes, he has not farmed any jobs out even though many of them are tailor made for Indian call centers. Now clearly he made a mistake and took a very wreckless (in hindsight) punt on a Bank, put his company at risk and lost a massive amount of money. That is the good versus the bad. Taking a common sense look surely anyone can see the good surely outweighs the bad. Surely this means that something should be worked out with Quinn to sort this all out. We can give banks billions and billions and I suggest we get f**k all in return so surely Quinn could be helped out - after all he is committed and capable of paying it back in time. No. True to form our heroic leaders allow administrators to go in there, make an example out of the greatest job makers in the country, drive a steak into the heart of his business and destroy the lives of 900 people. What will happen now is that the group will get sold to another insurance company and those jobs left will be consolidated into that companies existing jobs. God knows where that might be but it could easily be in another country. The Quinn group will struggle and will probably let people go and with all the job losses in Quinn we will see all the other dependent businesses go to the wall. The politicans will hide behind  the law and true to form they will leave the people of the border counties to sort it out themselves as they have for 90 years. This country is full of  talentless wasters who owe lots and have not a cent left to their name and they get off scot free and a man and a company that did so much for this region get pulverised because they have some assets left. I'm sorry for folks but there is no justice or fairness in this no matter what the rules or the law says. Thanks a million Fine Fail and the Greens for looking after the border counties and I hope the electorate give ye back exactly what you deserve.


Well said.

Although the regulator will say he was right in what he did, this government that bailed out all their mates look like letting Quinn go down the pan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on May 02, 2010, 01:16:22 PM
Well said Myles.

It stinks to the high heavens that rather than working with Quinn to sort things out, they decided to hang him and his workers out to dry. He has shown much more comitment to the economic future of Ireland than any of those f**kers who took that decision. He deserved better than that, and I hope in time they become truly ashamed of the way they've handled this and him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on May 02, 2010, 01:32:10 PM
Well put Myles. Maybe I'm being deluded here, but I would love to see the Quinn group ride this thing out and come back stronger than ever before in a few years time. It's just very annoying that very few politicans or people in the media have come out and supported Quinn over the last few weeks.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 02, 2010, 01:37:06 PM
I echo the sentiments of the other lads sine your post myles, you have more or less summed it up in a very pragmatic and striaghtforward fashion. This "issue" highlighted by the Financial Regulator of enough solvency to cover all the policy holders in the event of a d-day scenario could have and should have been dealt with in such a totally different fashion in difficult times when both the irish and british governments should be desperate to hang on to jobs - total and utter disgrace and disrespect to the businessman Sean Quinn and the people of Cavan/Fermanagh/Leitrim/Monaghan and everywhere else that does business with the Quinn Group, the knock on effect of the 900 people losing their jobs could be untold. How this has happened and the major Irish banks who were trading in arguably a much more wreckless fashion, then get bailed out by NAMA is sickening and laughable  ???  ::)  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 02, 2010, 05:00:36 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 02, 2010, 01:37:06 PM
I echo the sentiments of the other lads sine your post myles, you have more or less summed it up in a very pragmatic and striaghtforward fashion. This "issue" highlighted by the Financial Regulator of enough solvency to cover all the policy holders in the event of a d-day scenario could have and should have been dealt with in such a totally different fashion in difficult times when both the irish and british governments should be desperate to hang on to jobs - total and utter disgrace and disrespect to the businessman Sean Quinn and the people of Cavan/Fermanagh/Leitrim/Monaghan and everywhere else that does business with the Quinn Group, the knock on effect of the 900 people losing their jobs could be untold. How this has happened and the major Irish banks who were trading in arguably a much more wreckless fashion, then get bailed out by NAMA is sickening and laughable  ???  ::)  ::)

Indeed, when Dell decided to up sticks we had a couple of muppets of ministers head of to talk to Michael Dell even though there was no a hope he was for turning. If Intel decided in the morning the same there would be a rush of Dublin and Kildare TD's to get millions of grants signed off. Just compare that to how Quinn is treated and also Michael O Leary's 500 jobs in Dublin airport. Seems to me these TD's and ministers put their own personality issues ahead of their duty to the electorate. It disgusts me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 02, 2010, 11:16:58 PM
I listened to the trade minister on today.


What he said was not very encouraging at all.

He just said he'd send round the Fas people on Tuesday to those who were being made redundant to see if they could help ! FFS !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 05, 2010, 11:05:52 PM
Sean Quinn to stand down from board
Wednesday, 5 May 2010 22:14
Sean Quinn has today announced that he and his wife Patricia have decided to stand down from the Board of Quinn Group Limited.

Mr Quinn said in a statement that his decision was based on his need to concentrate in the short term on Quinn family interests outside of Quinn Group Limited and in particular on the interaction of these interests with Anglo Irish Bank.

He also stated that he wanted to avoid any potential conflict of interest associated with the proposed sale of Quinn Insurance.

AdvertisementHe added 'After 37 years of sustained development Quinn Group Limited has a mature, professional and skilled executive as well as a very experienced and independent Board.

'The group is extremely well invested and is strongly positioned to meet all of the challenges ahead.

'The Group management and staff in all areas are second to none as has been demonstrated in recent times.

'For now I want to concentrate on Quinn family interests outside of the group and bring all outstanding matters to a satisfactory conclusion in that regard'.


Quinn staff to meet ministers

Meanwhile, staff representatives from Quinn Insurance are to hold further meetings with ministers Batt O'Keeffe and Brendan Smith next week as part of their campaign to limit the number of job losses in the company.

Speaking after a meeting today in Cavan, staff representatives said they had put a number of questions to Minister O'Keeffe for clarification.

They were also highly critical of the role of the Financial Regulator and his handling of Quinn Insurance.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on May 05, 2010, 11:25:46 PM
I had my car insurance with Quinn and had to renew this week. My insurance last year was about £340. I rung up to renew this week after the ban was lifted. They quoted me almost £800! That's despit another year's no claims. As much as I would have liked to support them, rates like that don't give you much choice. I got cover elsewhere for £280. Not a hope they'll maintain any share operating like that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on May 13, 2010, 05:32:23 PM
Interesting.  Anybody hear anything about this:

http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/roundup/articles/2010/05/13/391429-family-bid-for-quinn-insurance-not-ruled-out/ (http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/roundup/articles/2010/05/13/391429-family-bid-for-quinn-insurance-not-ruled-out/)

Quote
Family bid for Quinn Insurance not ruled out
A CLOSE family member of Sean Quinn is planning to purchase the crisis-hit Quinn Insurance, The Impartial Reporter has learned.

It's understood the ambitious plan which, if successful, is the only way to keep the troubled firm in the Quinn family.

Sources say serious negotiations have been under way for a "considerable time" about a deal involving members of Sean Quinn's family and American investors.

It is believed several potential investors in the United States have been approached by representatives acting on behalf of the Quinn family regarding a takeover bid.

As speculation continued yesterday, Mr. Peter Quinn refused to rule out a family bid: "There isn't a move by the family at the minute but that's not to say there won't be any in the future."

Since Quinn Insurance was placed into permanent administration three weeks ago, around 46 multinational companies are believed to have come forward wanting a slice of the Quinn pie. But the family are keen to retain control of Quinn Insurance, we're told. In fact, sources say that keeping the firm in the family has always been the case and that the plan has always been to have the business back within six weeks of entering permanent administration.

Three weeks in, the clock is ticking and according to a source close to the Quinn family the stakes have never been higher -- buying back the business could mean "risking everything".

"I know representatives are actively seeking investors from New York but before a takeover could be granted, the prospective buyers would need to ensure the administrators that not only could they afford to take over the business but that the balance of the business was efficient. Clearly at the moment it is not efficient which is why it went into administration in the first place. The Irish Regulator's requirements are also becoming evermore rigorous. It's a hell of an attempt, I have to take my hat off to them. They certainly have guts but I guess you can only go bankrupt once. My main concern is the future of jobs. I think this sort of deal could put even more jobs at risk," he said.

Furthermore, The Impartial Reporter has also been told that Sean Quinn's resignation last week from the Quinn Group came about as a result of those negotiations.

Mr. Quinn and his wife Patricia stood down from the board of Quinn Group Limited last Wednesday evening to avoid any "potential conflict of interest" associated with the sale of Quinn Insurance -- and now we know why.

The businessman also said his decision was based on his need to concentrate in the short term on family interests outside of the Quinn Group, in particular on the interaction of those interests with the troubled Anglo Irish Bank.

In a statement, Mr. Quinn said: "After 37 years of sustained development Quinn Group Limited has a mature, professional and skilled executive as well as a very experienced and independent Board. The Group is extremely well invested and is strongly positioned to meet all of the challenges ahead. The Group management and staff in all areas are second to none as has been demonstrated in recent times. For now I want to concentrate on Quinn family interests outside of the Group and bring all outstanding matters to a satisfactory conclusion in that regard."

A spokesperson for Dublin administrators, Grant and Thornton, said yesterday: "The administrators are preparing a memorandum to go out to everyone and anyone who has expressed any interest in Quinn Insurance. Should the Quinn Group come to any decision about the sale of shares in Quinn Insurance Limited, the administrator would have to approve such a deal. It is possible that the Quinn Group may be going off to approach other people about their business. However, the administrator couldn't comment on anything like that. The memorandum will be sent out to the interested parties at the end of this month and that's when you may begin to see progress on the Quinn Limited side. The Quinn Group side is a completely different kettle of fish."

Responding to today's story, a Quinn spokesperson simply said: "The Group have no comment to make on this."

At the moment there is no price tag fixed to Quinn Insurance but it is thought to be "extremely high".

Enterprise Minister Arlene Foster, who along with Employment and Learning Minister, Sir Reg Empey will co-ordinate the Government's response to the situation at Quinn Insurance, says her Department are continually being made aware of any takeover proposals from prospective buyers and said a number of options were currently on the table.

The focus on finding a solution -- and quick -- she says, is her main priority.

The Minister met with the Irish Regulator in Dublin on Tuesday to discuss the crisis: "We had a very frank discussion about the options open to the Quinn Insurance," she said.

Last week, Mrs. Foster announced that Leslie Ross, who is originally from Enniskillen, will co-ordinate the activities of the Department of Enterprise, the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL), Invest Northern Ireland, InterTradeIreland and local councils in response to the problems facing Quinn Insurance.

Leslie Ross CB has extensive experience of economic development in Northern Ireland for nearly 30 years, having held a number of prominent posts within the industry. Following the creation of Invest Northern Ireland in April 2002 he was appointed Managing Director of its Business International group, a role which he held until his retirement from full time employment in 2005. He was awarded a CB in the Queen's New Year Honours List in 2006.

Mr. Ross was in Enniskillen yesterday to meet with Arlene Foster and staff at the Townhall, where he will be based for several weeks.

Speaking to The Impartial Reporter, Mr. Ross said he was ready to take on the challenge: "Yes, very much so. It's a job that needed to be started quickly. I will be looking, firstly, to acknowledge the importance of Quinn Insurance to the local economy and to reassure the work force that my team and I will be doing all that we can to secure the future of Quinn Insurance. We will be looking to see what we can do to help Quinn Insurance in its current state and to help those employees who will have to leave find alternative employment," he said.

Meanwhile on Monday, Independent councillor Gerry McHugh was thrown out of the Northern Ireland Assembly after criticising Stormont's handling of the problems at Quinn Insurance.

He was ruled out of order and proceedings were briefly suspended by Speaker William Hay after he kicked up a fuss following Assembly questions with Deputy Leader Martin McGuinness.

Speaking afterwards, Mr. McHugh said he felt Stormont had "let down" Quinn employees and "isn't doing enough".

And in a statement to this newspaper yesterday, Sinn Fein councillor Phil Flanagan described Mr. McHugh's outburst as "unproductive and childish".

"Perhaps, Mr. McHugh would be better served questioning his Fianna Fáil colleagues, particularly An Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, Brian Lenihan and Batte O'Keefe, to see what action they have taken to protect the jobs throughout the Quinn Group. This would be much more productive than criticising the Assembly. He is not trying to look after the interests of the workers of the Quinn Group, but merely trying to be seen to be doing something in the run up to the Assembly elections next year."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on May 18, 2010, 03:43:38 PM
Heads up for Spotlight tonight on BBC1 10:35pm looking at the Quinn situation
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 18, 2010, 03:46:36 PM
Heard about this last week. Just wondering what the chances of getting this over in Engerland? Will i be able to access the iplayer?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on May 18, 2010, 06:03:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 18, 2010, 03:46:36 PM
Heard about this last week. Just wondering what the chances of getting this over in Engerland? Will i be able to access the iplayer?

Yep, you should be able to watch it on iplayer, it'll probably be tomorrow afternoon before it's available.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on May 18, 2010, 10:44:30 PM
Right so Little is definetly back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 19, 2010, 12:13:37 AM
Poor enough programme revealing nothing new.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on May 19, 2010, 12:30:49 AM
Except Fermanagh's ridiculous training gear!!!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on May 19, 2010, 09:26:07 AM
Quote from: orangeman on May 19, 2010, 12:13:37 AM
Poor enough programme revealing nothing new.

Rubbish..a re-hash of what everyone already knows except for the interview with that strange looking "friend" of SQ's.  PLus we learned that Chris Breen is carrying a bit of timber.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on May 20, 2010, 01:26:54 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sj5bp/Spotlight_2010_2011_Quinn_Insurance/

fermanagh and cavan are fucked
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 20, 2010, 02:02:59 PM
Quote from: unitedireland on May 20, 2010, 01:26:54 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sj5bp/Spotlight_2010_2011_Quinn_Insurance/

fermanagh and cavan are fucked

It's amazing the support industries that are needed to support the Quinn operations in Fermanagh etc  -

The programme showed the massive indirect employment that has been created as a result of Quinn's operations -


There was a creche in some town ( not sure which ) which emplyed 21 people. All the children in the creche were ( not literally ) Quinn children.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2010, 12:26:20 PM
900 apply for redundancy at Quinn
Page last updated at 10:51 GMT, Wednesday, 26 May 2010 11:51 UK
E-mail this to a friend Printable version  Quinn Insurance employs 600 people in County Fermanagh More than 900 workers at Quinn Insurance have applied for voluntary redundancy.

The company was put into administration by the High Court in Dublin in March.

Quinn Insurance is shedding 900 staff at locations on both sides of the border including Navan, Cavan and Dublin.

Two hundred of the jobs will go in Northern Ireland at Enniskillen and Derrylin.

It will be several weeks before the applicants will be told whether or not they will qualify.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 12:56:10 PM
Quote from: unitedireland on May 20, 2010, 01:26:54 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sj5bp/Spotlight_2010_2011_Quinn_Insurance/

fermanagh and cavan are fucked

Well, you know who to blame for the situation...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 01:08:53 PM
matthew elderfield or sean quinn himself??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 01:39:23 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 01:08:53 PM
matthew elderfield or sean quinn himself??

Sean Quinn himself of course.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 01:42:05 PM
And would you not apportion any blame as to the way the regulator and administrators have handled things?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 02:04:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 01:42:05 PM
And would you not apportion any blame as to the way the regulator and administrators have handled things?

None at all. Quinn broke the law, took client funds and used them to cover gambling losses - twice.

The regulator played a blinder here and saved most, if not all, of the jobs and saw no policy defaults.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 02:10:42 PM
wrong Ron, wrong again Ron, wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong Ron!!!  :P  ::)

good old del boy eh!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 02:22:21 PM
ok well I'm going to call BS on that.

The problem was around the insurance ratio of QD. He never moved clients funds, he had a insurance ratio of 118% (Average needed throughout europe is 100%), however Ireland is higher with 150%. Despite the fact that Quinn said he would work it up to 150% ( And he was always alot higher than VHS).
But then the regulator stepped in and closed the UK and NI business markets BEFORE the administrator moved in. By doing this the regulator had already prevented the administrators from viewing the full picture, ie it should have been the administrators making the decision on closing areas of the business.

Not only that but the regulator made these decisions without giving Quinns a chance of appeal and forced it through.

On top of that it took them a month to actually work out that the uk markets were profitable and re-open these ( Damage was done at this point). That was after they had decided they had enough information within a day to close them.

Quinn did take a gamble with Anglo but he's taken many a gamble that's worked out not only for him but for the government, the local communities etc. So their handling of the QD was shambolic and destroyed a company that was growing through the Uk and building new jobs within the Irish economy.

By all means SQ will take his portion of the blame on this, but it's not a black and white as you would make out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 02:23:15 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 02:10:42 PM
wrong Ron, wrong again Ron, wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong Ron!!!  :P  ::)

good old del boy eh!

Eh? What is 'wrong' with what I said?

He got a record fine from the regulator last year and pulled the same stunt. He was on a yellow card and got his early bath
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 02:29:09 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 02:22:21 PM
ok well I'm going to call BS on that.

The problem was around the insurance ratio of QD. He never moved clients funds, he had a insurance ratio of 118% (Average needed throughout europe is 100%), however Ireland is higher with 150%. Despite the fact that Quinn said he would work it up to 150% ( And he was always alot higher than VHS).
But then the regulator stepped in and closed the UK and NI business markets BEFORE the administrator moved in. By doing this the regulator had already prevented the administrators from viewing the full picture, ie it should have been the administrators making the decision on closing areas of the business.

Rules is the rules and he was on a yellow card. He then broke the rules, and THE LAW, and the regualtor acted to protect policyholders as they felt the company was systemically broke.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 02:22:21 PMNot only that but the regulator made these decisions without giving Quinns a chance of appeal and forced it through.

As his is legal right.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 02:22:21 PMOn top of that it took them a month to actually work out that the uk markets were profitable and re-open these ( Damage was done at this point). That was after they had decided they had enough information within a day to close them.

You imply that this was the first run in between the regualtor and Quinn. They didn't do this out of boredom.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 02:22:21 PMQuinn did take a gamble with Anglo but he's taken many a gamble that's worked out not only for him but for the government, the local communities etc. So their handling of the QD was shambolic and destroyed a company that was growing through the Uk and building new jobs within the Irish economy.

So you want a return to the days of old where 'clout' trumps the law? His insurance companies were insolvent - even he accepted that. The regualtor had to act and with the press they had recently were always going to hammer the next financial institution that stepped out of line.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 02:22:21 PMBy all means SQ will take his portion of the blame on this, but it's not a black and white as you would make out.

A portion? Jesus wept.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 03:04:21 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 02:23:15 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 02:10:42 PM
wrong Ron, wrong again Ron, wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong Ron!!!  :P  ::)

good old del boy eh!

Eh? What is 'wrong' with what I said?

He got a record fine from the regulator last year and pulled the same stunt. He was on a yellow card and got his early bath

dub, Quinn could have got himself out of this mess as Quinn Insurance was trading very profitably... Doomsday happened months ago when NAMA was invented. Were the banks trading wrecklessly for years before the crash happened (becasue of their endless lending policies) and if the government had not stepped in what would have happened to ALL my savings?

One rule for the City, another rule for the country my old man
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 03:11:08 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 03:04:21 PM

dub, Quinn could have got himself out of this mess as Quinn Insurance was trading very profitably... Doomsday happened months ago when NAMA was invented. Were the banks trading wrecklessly for years before the crash happened (becasue of their endless lending policies) and if the government had not stepped in what would have happened to ALL my savings?

1: Thats not how regulation works. In the insurance industry you can't say 'well I can't cover claims now, but give me 6 months'.

2: So you are arguing that the goverment were right to step in to protect your deposits but wrong to step in to protect somone elses health insurance?


Quote from: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 03:04:21 PM

One rule for the City, another rule for the country my old man

Bull. New rules, or at least enforcement of them, for all, regardless of how chummy you are with FF.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 03:13:26 PM
Rules is the rules and he was on a yellow card. He then broke the rules, and THE LAW, and the regualtor acted to protect policyholders as they felt the company was systemically broke.


If the rules are the rules how come all insurance companies don't have to comply? The company was never systemically broke so I don't know were your getting that from. They had 118% of their ratios covered. Only slightly of what the reccommended ratio in Ireland.

As his is legal right.

Err no actually. The decision to impose a ban on all NI/UK business was fundamentally wrong, particularly
with regard to the manner in which it was implemented immediately prior to him going to the
High Court to request they place the firm in provisional administration.
What the Regulator should have done as correct & responsible procedure would have been to allow the Administrators, that he sought to appoint two hours later, to analyse the business and let them make an informed decision on the NI/UK market.
If after this review by the Administrators, it was felt warranted to remove QIL from trading in some
parts of the market or increase prices in some areas, then fine, do this after their review, but why
impose a ban on all lines, severely damage the reputation, & then reopen the business just a few
weeks later.

You imply that this was the first run in between the regualtor and Quinn. They didn't do this out of boredom.


No I didn't.

So you want a return to the days of old where 'clout' trumps the law? His insurance companies were insolvent - even he accepted that. The regualtor had to act and with the press they had recently were always going to hammer the next financial institution that stepped out of line.


No I wouldn't want a return to "clout trumps the law. But you make it sound like this was the only option open to the regulator. There was other ways of dealing with the insolvency ratios. There were ways were the regulator could have worked with QD and but measures in place to ensure QD gets up to full solvency ( And when i say that I mean for Ireland's 150% ratio, which is 50% higher than most other Euro countries) within a year or two. What I didn't expect was for the regulator to destroy a Irish company that was paying the Government nearly 100Million in taxes each year, giving 1000's of people employment, outpreforming larger UK insurance companies. Nor did I expect the Irish government to sit back and watch it happen either when it caused the loss of 900 jobs and up to 20,000 other jobs indirectly. There were plenty of other options open to the regulator as have been mentioned in the media. But funnily enough he choice the most drastic of all. Or as some more cynical people have viewed it the one option that would gather the regulator the highest profile before he swans back to the UK.

A portion? Jesus wept

You see this line shows me that you don't have a clue, If you think there was no other option and that no one else has any blame other than SQ.

(Apologies about the quoting still can't get the hang of it. )
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 03:41:09 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 03:11:08 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 03:04:21 PM

dub, Quinn could have got himself out of this mess as Quinn Insurance was trading very profitably... Doomsday happened months ago when NAMA was invented. Were the banks trading wrecklessly for years before the crash happened (becasue of their endless lending policies) and if the government had not stepped in what would have happened to ALL my savings?

1: Thats not how regulation works. In the insurance industry you can't say 'well I can't cover claims now, but give me 6 months'.

2: So you are arguing that the goverment were right to step in to protect your deposits but wrong to step in to protect somone elses health insurance?


Quote from: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 03:04:21 PM

One rule for the City, another rule for the country my old man

Bull. New rules, or at least enforcement of them, for all, regardless of how chummy you are with FF.

I am still waiting for two insurance companies to sort out a claim I have had to deal with from August last year

well said sarsfields, i could not have put it better than that myself if i was here for a week. This whole mess is an utter disgrace which has been allowed to happen by numb nut politicians standing idly by  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 04:38:00 PM
Dublinfella you sound like a civil servant 'they were only following the processes'.

The business was making 30 million a month, unless Ireland got hit by a nuclear bomb there was never any danger that the company would not have been able to pay out all policies (in which case there most likely would not need to be any payouts).

Common sense would have said that they looked at the figures and then said to Quinn you have 6 months to find X amount of money to get up to 150%.  If that means finding more investors so be it, with a company that was making £30million profit a month it would not have been hard to find investors.

By going in so heavy handed the regulators totally destroyed a very profitable business and thousands of peoples livelyhood.  This was the inevitable and obvious outcome from the approach the regulators took.  Would you pay out £500 for car insurance when a company might not exist in 3 months?

You could go into any business in ireland and destroy them by going in 1 day and saying we are closing you down for 2 weeks until we look at the figures some more instead of looking at the figures and then saying you need to do X, Y and Z to meet some regulation.  It is beyond belief that this was allowed to happen the way it did.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 04:49:15 PM
A civil servant I am not, but the point being WHY were they making this claimed 30m a month? By not playing by the rules. To the point where the company was not solvent. We don't need a nuclear bomb, we need a bout of swine flu for it all to have unravelled.

If you think they went in swinging because they had nothing better to do, you are on a different planet. Everyone in the insurance industry had heard the stories about their business model and they had major run ins with the regulator in both Ireland and Britain over serious systemic flaws. So serious that they invoked their right to remove the entire board and appoint a third party to try and save the company.

The rules have changed over the last few years. No-one is looking the other way anymore. That seems to be the bit you are refusing to accept.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:08 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 04:49:15 PM
A civil servant I am not, but the point being WHY were they making this claimed 30m a month? By not playing by the rules. To the point where the company was not solvent. We don't need a nuclear bomb, we need a bout of swine flu for it all to have unravelled.

If you think they went in swinging because they had nothing better to do, you are on a different planet. Everyone in the insurance industry had heard the stories about their business model and they had major run ins with the regulator in both Ireland and Britain over serious systemic flaws. So serious that they invoked their right to remove the entire board and appoint a third party to try and save the company.

The rules have changed over the last few years. No-one is looking the other way anymore. That seems to be the bit you are refusing to accept.

Did they try to save them or did they make an example out of them?

We've already had a bout of swine flu and no businesses went under to my knowledge because of it!

What you don't seem to have a problem with is that they put thousands and thousands of people in a rural area out of work and onto the dole when they were working in a profitable business.  By all means fine the company if they are not following all the rules until they do comply or even force them to sell part of business, but not come in 1 day and shut the gates, that should be the last option they should be going for.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 05:22:47 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:08 PM

Did they try to save them or did they make an example out of them?

Both.


Quote from: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:08 PM

We've already had a bout of swine flu and no businesses went under to my knowledge because of it!

We aren't taking about 'business'. We are talking about insolvent health insurers.

Quote from: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:08 PM
What you don't seem to have a problem with is that they put thousands and thousands of people in a rural area out of work and onto the dole when they were working in a profitable business.  By all means fine the company if they are not following all the rules until they do comply or even force them to sell part of business, but not come in 1 day and shut the gates, that should be the last option they should be going for.

They? They, after repeated warnings (day 1 my arse) removed the board of a company that at best were cooking the books and at worst were involved in fraud.

Heroin dealers make money and employ people in improverished rural areas. But the law is still being broken and the state have to react.

Sean Quinn, and Sean Quinn alone created this mess with the greed he showed trying to make billions on risky Anglo derivitiaves and then using company (and client) money to cover his losses. You can't blame the regulator for that fundamental basis to his troubles.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 26, 2010, 06:02:01 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:08 PM
Did they try to save them or did they make an example out of them?

I guess the new regulator may have gone hard enough to make an example but any administration work is to save them.


Quote from: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:08 PM
What you don't seem to have a problem with is that they put thousands and thousands of people in a rural area out of work and onto the dole when they were working in a profitable business.  By all means fine the company if they are not following all the rules until they do comply or even force them to sell part of business, but not come in 1 day and shut the gates, that should be the last option they should be going for.

A few things:

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 06:18:05 PM
We aren't taking about 'business'. We are talking about insolvent health insurers.

Well would they not have looked closer to home for that then. QD had a hell of a lot better solvency than VHI. So I'll be expecting the same action there then? No? Why not? Or why have they extended the deadline for solvency to 2012 for VHI?

The regulator was not trying to save QD. The regulator was making a name for himself. And he did that. In fact had the Government known excately what the regulator was planning and the outcome they wouldn't have have allowed the guns blazing, taking no prisoners approach.

They? They, after repeated warnings (day 1 my arse) removed the board of a company that at best were cooking the books and at worst were involved in fraud.


Fraud? Then surely the Guards would have turned up something on that when they investigated? Or did they decide to hide that? Or maybe the third option that your talking crap?

There was issues with insolvency that had been declared in the accounts since 2005. But don't let that get in the way of you twisting things.


Heroin dealers make money and employ people in improverished rural areas. But the law is still being broken and the state have to react.

Sean Quinn, and Sean Quinn alone created this mess with the greed he showed trying to make billions on risky Anglo derivitiaves and then using company (and client) money to cover his losses. You can't blame the regulator for that fundamental basis to his troubles.


You see here we are again your saying SQ caused this all himself. But I've listed a load of things that weren't related to SQ about how it was handled that puts fault at the Regulator. Which is going back to your orginal point that the whole mess can't just be laid at SQ's feet.

Can you show were SQ used client money to hide the debt or a link to it?

I'm not even going to comment on the herion dealer comment.


Also one final things

Everyone in the insurance industry had heard the stories about their business model

Could you just let me know what problems these are? I'm hoping their not the problems that competitors have highlighted in response to QD's growth?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 06:32:01 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 26, 2010, 06:02:01 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:08 PM
Did they try to save them or did they make an example out of them?

I guess the new regulator may have gone hard enough to make an example but any administration work is to save them.


Quote from: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:08 PM
What you don't seem to have a problem with is that they put thousands and thousands of people in a rural area out of work and onto the dole when they were working in a profitable business.  By all means fine the company if they are not following all the rules until they do comply or even force them to sell part of business, but not come in 1 day and shut the gates, that should be the last option they should be going for.

A few things:


  • If you start bending the rules even for something honourable and altruistic as saving jobs in a rural area, you are still bending the rules.  It starts with that and goes on to breaking the rules as has happened in the past.   And the reasons get less and less honourable and altruistic each time.[/li]

    • Remember "Day 1" wasn't this May, it was October 2008 when Quinn Life and Quinn himself were first fined by the previous regulator.

    • "They" have not shut the gates, they have trimmed the company to something sustainable that may just prevent the gates being closed in the long run

    • It's fine for a business to turn a profit but some of that profit needs to be ploughed back in, especially in an insurance company with regulated solvency requirements.  If that profit is being diverted to cover costs/debts/losses elsewhere then it is irelevant to the discussion.
Jim sorry but I disagree with that bit in bold. They are already bending the rules for VHI by extending their deadline to 2012.

Why was this not offered to QD? And lets be honest QD is doing alot more for the irish economy than VHI. VHI were also insolveny in 2008 and they weren't fined. Yet QD were.

Also the profits to the insurance company can be put anywere as long as it's not threatening the solvency ratios. And lets remember QD's solvency ratios were well over the EU mimium requirements of 100%. (They had 118%) However were they failed was getting up to the ratio set by the regulator of 150% But they were on course to meet this before the end of 2010 had the regulator given them a chance.

And lets look back now. Which would have been the greater evil work with QD to ensure solvency within the year? Or to go in all guns blazing and destroy the rep of an thriving Irish insurance company.

As for the not shutting the doors on the business. Again I'll disagree. They have enforced unreasonable price increases on QD that put them at up to 300% higher than other insurance companies premiums. This despite the fact that QD have lower costs than most insurance companies because of their fast track system.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 11:26:07 AM
SS

The new regulator has clearly spelled out that different risks will be treated differently. VHI don't have the previous regulatory failings and fines QD do. So the situation is different and is treated differently.

Your entire argument seems to be that because Quinn provides employment he should be left alone to run his company as he personally sees fit. Well as Jim Murphy put it that isn't acceptible anymore post Anglo. The country has changed and the expectation is now there that the regulator do his bloody job and deal with companies that are at it. And QD were most certainly at it.

You fundamentally don't seem to get the fact that the 'profits' QD were making were inflated by the fact they weren't playing it straight. If you can't get your head around that there isn't much point talking to you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 11:52:26 AM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 11:26:07 AM
SS

The new regulator has clearly spelled out that different risks will be treated differently. VHI don't have the previous regulatory failings and fines QD do. So the situation is different and is treated differently.

Your entire argument seems to be that because Quinn provides employment he should be left alone to run his company as he personally sees fit. Well as Jim Murphy put it that isn't acceptible anymore post Anglo. The country has changed and the expectation is now there that the regulator do his bloody job and deal with companies that are at it. And QD were most certainly at it.

You fundamentally don't seem to get the fact that the 'profits' QD were making were inflated by the fact they weren't playing it straight. If you can't get your head around that there isn't much point talking to you.

VHI had the same failings as QD with regards to Solvency. And that is the issue that placed QD into Admin. So your wrong about the situation being different. It's the same and what's more QD had alot better solvency ratio that VHI. And QD were on plan to be meeting the excessive 150% rate by the end of 2010 but weren't given the opportunity. VHI have been given deadlines that they have progressively failed to meet and have had these extended.

A large part of my arguement is based around the good that QD and QG has done for the Irish economy alright. I don't deny that. And he was already in the process of increasing his ratio so given time would have brought it up to the required 150%. Had the regulator worked with him and allowed him the time VHI was given despite their lack of increase in solvency and indeed them needed a cash injection in 2008 from the state then QD would have been able to meet this. In fact plans were given to the Regulator explaining how they would meet the 150%. But he decided to ignore these and go for the high profile guns blazing approach.

You seem to think that the regulator had no option but to do what he did. When in fact he did. He had options that were being provided to VHI.

Can you tell me how Quinns Direct profits were inflated by not playing it straight? I fail to get my head around the fact that you keep going round in circles and haven't taken on board anything I've mentioned in the last few posts so maybe your right there's little point in talking to you.

One final question Why has VHI been given til 2012 to get their solveny up despite their failing over the last few years whenQD weren't offered this? Despite the fact QD were making the better inroads to the 150% ratio?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 12:04:58 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 11:52:26 AM

VHI had the same failings as QD with regards to Solvency. And that is the issue that placed QD into Admin. So your wrong about the situation being different. It's the same and what's more QD had alot better solvency ratio that VHI. And QD were on plan to be meeting the excessive 150% rate by the end of 2010 but weren't given the opportunity. VHI have been given deadlines that they have progressively failed to meet and have had these extended.

But you are answering your own question. VHI have an arrangement in relation to increasing their solvency and are sticking to it. QD have one and didn't.

The rights and wrongs of why the solvency ratios are different is somewhat irrelevant. QD broke their agreement on sovencly and VHI didn't.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 11:52:26 AM

A large part of my arguement is based around the good that QD and QG has done for the Irish economy alright. I don't deny that. And he was already in the process of increasing his ratio so given time would have brought it up to the required 150%. Had the regulator worked with him and allowed him the time VHI was given despite their lack of increase in solvency and indeed them needed a cash injection in 2008 from the state then QD would have been able to meet this. In fact plans were given to the Regulator explaining how they would meet the 150%. But he decided to ignore these and go for the high profile guns blazing approach.

But the regualtor had worked with QD (and I note you say him... very telling) and it involved a record fine and a yellow card. You are falsly asserting that this is the first interaction beween the FR and QD on this matter, not the cumulation of a couple of years worth of warnings.

The issue is QD writing an intercompany loan to cover gambling debts with ringfenced solvency money and when the FR found out they reacted. Any side arrangements over solvency that were went out the window when that happened.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 11:52:26 AM

You seem to think that the regulator had no option but to do what he did. When in fact he did. He had options that were being provided to VHI.

But VHI didn't breach the rules and stuck to their arrangement. You can't compare the two.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 11:52:26 AM
Can you tell me how Quinns Direct profits were inflated by not playing it straight? I fail to get my head around the fact that you keep going round in circles and haven't taken on board anything I've mentioned in the last few posts so maybe your right there's little point in talking to you.

They didn't pay out on claims in time and money that other insurers had to keep as collateral was invested or recorded as profit.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 11:52:26 AM
One final question Why has VHI been given til 2012 to get their solveny up despite their failing over the last few years whenQD weren't offered this? Despite the fact QD were making the better inroads to the 150% ratio?

Irrelevent. The issue is that QD broke the law by using solvency funds to plug losses in other Quinn companies - after an explicit warning not to do so again.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:23:51 PM
But you are answering your own question. VHI have an arrangement in relation to increasing their solvency and are sticking to it. QD have one and didn't.

The rights and wrongs of why the solvency ratios are different is somewhat irrelevant. QD broke their agreement on sovencly and VHI didn't


Are you serious??? Did you not read my post above? QD had already sent plans into the regulator explaining how they were planning to meet the ratio by the end of 2010.

VHI have been given plans and have constantly broke these. Resulting in the deadline being pushed back on a number of occasions. The last one being 2012. And what's more QD had a better ratio than VHI.

But the regualtor had worked with QD (and I note you say him... very telling) and it involved a record fine and a yellow card. You are falsly asserting that this is the first interaction beween the FR and QD on this matter, not the cumulation of a couple of years worth of warnings.

The issue is QD writing an intercompany loan to cover gambling debts with ringfenced solvency money and when the FR found out they reacted. Any side arrangements over solvency that were went out the window when that happened.


very telling is it??  :D :D
The record fine was disputed at the time by QD as being excessive given the fact there was never a risk to policyholders, as admitted after by the regulator.


But VHI didn't breach the rules and stuck to their arrangement. You can't compare the two.


Seriously are you not following this? VHI broke the rules by not meeting the solvency deadline that they were given by the regulator. However these rules were relaxed in their case to allow more time to reach these deadlines

so i think it's fair enough to compare the two cases.

They didn't pay out on claims in time and money that other insurers had to keep as collateral was invested or recorded as profit.

Can you send me a link on this? Have to say first I've heard of this?

[Irrelevent. The issue is that QD broke the law by using solvency funds to plug losses in other Quinn companies - after an explicit warning not to do so again. /sub]

Not irrelevant.  What you seem to be forgetting is that VHI are breaking the law also by not meeting the requirement set by the requlator as were QD. So again could you answer why VHI were allowed time to meet solvency and QD weren't?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:26:13 PM
And by the way DF i'm not saying there wasn't alot of fault at QD and SQ's feet in this, in case anyone things I am. But what I don't accept is that they are soley to blame to how it was dealt with which is what you were claiming. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maiden1 on May 27, 2010, 12:28:19 PM
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/vhi-gets-two-more-years-to-build-up-reserves-2184763.html


HEALTH insurer VHI was given an advantage over its competitors last night when it was granted another two years to build up its financial reserves.

Health Minister Mary Harney said the state-owned company was to be given until the beginning of 2012 to come up with sufficient reserves to meet its solvency requirements.

The revelation comes in the wake of more than 900 job losses at rival insurer, Quinn Insurance, as part of a restructuring plan to address the company's insolvency issues.

Ms Harney revealed she was again postponing the date for the VHI to meet requirements.

The postponement is the latest in a long line of postponements since 1999, and enables the VHI to continue to benefit from a derogation, first granted in 1973, from the full rigours of regulation.



That's 1999 not 2009.  VHI get given more time and QD get the book thrown at them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 12:34:00 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 27, 2010, 12:28:19 PM
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/vhi-gets-two-more-years-to-build-up-reserves-2184763.html


HEALTH insurer VHI was given an advantage over its competitors last night when it was granted another two years to build up its financial reserves.

Health Minister Mary Harney said the state-owned company was to be given until the beginning of 2012 to come up with sufficient reserves to meet its solvency requirements.

The revelation comes in the wake of more than 900 job losses at rival insurer, Quinn Insurance, as part of a restructuring plan to address the company's insolvency issues.

Ms Harney revealed she was again postponing the date for the VHI to meet requirements.

The postponement is the latest in a long line of postponements since 1999, and enables the VHI to continue to benefit from a derogation, first granted in 1973, from the full rigours of regulation.



That's 1999 not 2009.  VHI get given more time and QD get the book thrown at them.

this should cause outrage and QD should be taking legal action against the government on this ruling

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/boardroom-unhealthy-financial-truths-and-the-vhi-issue-49402.html   ???  ::)

VHI now has until January 2012 to meet the full capitalisation requirements which would be needed to bring it under the umbrella of the Financial Regulator

As reported here last week, one option under discussion is to inject between €60 million and €100 million into VHI in the short term

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 12:34:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:23:51 PM

Are you serious??? Did you not read my post above? QD had already sent plans into the regulator explaining how they were planning to meet the ratio by the end of 2010.

And then promptly broke the plans by fecking €400m of solvency funds for the rest of the company. THAT is the problem.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:23:51 PMVHI have been given plans and have constantly broke these. Resulting in the deadline being pushed back on a number of occasions. The last one being 2012. And what's more QD had a better ratio than VHI.

But they were up front with the FR and never tried to hide issues from them. Thats key.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:23:51 PMvery telling is it??  :D :D
The record fine was disputed at the time by QD as being excessive given the fact there was never a risk to policyholders, as admitted after by the regulator.

Source?

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:23:51 PM
Seriously are you not following this? VHI broke the rules by not meeting the solvency deadline that they were given by the regulator. However these rules were relaxed in their case to allow more time to reach these deadlines

so i think it's fair enough to compare the two cases.

If the VHI took client money and used it to stem their chairmans gambling losses, then yes, there would be a comparison. When that happens, come back to me.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:23:51 PM
Can you send me a link on this? Have to say first I've heard of this?

Which bit?
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:23:51 PM
Not irrelevant.  What you seem to be forgetting is that VHI are breaking the law also by not meeting the requirement set by the requlator as were QD. So again could you answer why VHI were allowed time to meet solvency and QD weren't?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 12:36:46 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 12:34:00 PM

this should cause outrage and QD should be taking legal action against the government on this ruling

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/boardroom-unhealthy-financial-truths-and-the-vhi-issue-49402.html   ???  ::)

VHI now has until January 2012 to meet the full capitalisation requirements which would be needed to bring it under the umbrella of the Financial Regulator

As reported here last week, one option under discussion is to inject between €60 million and €100 million into VHI in the short term

Its not that simple VHI lost a lot of profitible customers to BUPA and have struggled with the risk equalisation. They have been given time to sort it all out.

Quinn hid illegal transactions from the regulator.

Why are we comparing the two issues?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyronefan on May 27, 2010, 12:37:44 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 12:34:00 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 27, 2010, 12:28:19 PM
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/vhi-gets-two-more-years-to-build-up-reserves-2184763.html


HEALTH insurer VHI was given an advantage over its competitors last night when it was granted another two years to build up its financial reserves.

Health Minister Mary Harney said the state-owned company was to be given until the beginning of 2012 to come up with sufficient reserves to meet its solvency requirements.

The revelation comes in the wake of more than 900 job losses at rival insurer, Quinn Insurance, as part of a restructuring plan to address the company's insolvency issues.

Ms Harney revealed she was again postponing the date for the VHI to meet requirements.

The postponement is the latest in a long line of postponements since 1999, and enables the VHI to continue to benefit from a derogation, first granted in 1973, from the full rigours of regulation.



That's 1999 not 2009.  VHI get given more time and QD get the book thrown at them.

this should cause outrage and QD should be taking legal action against the government on this ruling

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/boardroom-unhealthy-financial-truths-and-the-vhi-issue-49402.html   ???  ::)

VHI now has until January 2012 to meet the full capitalisation requirements which would be needed to bring it under the umbrella of the Financial Regulator

As reported here last week, one option under discussion is to inject between €60 million and €100 million into VHI in the short term

was the option of the government injecting cash into QD discussed but the government said at the time that they were not allow to do it because of European law.

Does Europe have a different law for QD than it does for VHI
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:49:38 PM
The sourse I want is in relation to

They didn't pay out on claims in time and money that other insurers had to keep as collateral was invested or recorded as profit.

And the sourse you want with regards to the Regulator saying there was no risk to policy holders is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7689642.stm

Quinn insurance firm in huge fine 

Mr Quinn said he accepted he had made mistakes
A company owned by one of Ireland's richest businessmen has been fined a record 3.25m euro by the Republic of Ireland's financial watchdog.

County Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn has stepped down as chairman of Quinn Insurance following an investigation.

The Financial Regulator said it had "reasonable cause" to suspect breaches of regulatory requirements.

Personally fining Mr Quinn 200,000 euro, it said the firm had fully co-operated and the matter was now closed.

In a statement, the Financial Regulator said the suspected breaches related to contraventions by Quinn Insurance of "obligations under the Insurance Acts and Regulations, including failure to notify the Financial Regulator prior to providing loans to related companies".

 
It added that policyholders at the firm had not been affected.

In a statement, Sean Quinn said the company "had made loans to a related company which amounted to €288m in May 2008 when the accounts were finalised.

"These loans breached insurance regulations and as a result of this the Financial Regulator has sanctioned Quinn Insurance and myself. I accept complete responsibility for this breach of regulation.

"While I accept that I made mistakes, I feel that the levels of fines do not reflect the fact that there was no risk to policyholders or the taxpayer but are a result of the pressures existing in the current environment. However, we will pay the fines and move on."

Mr Quinn said he would continue as chairman of Quinn Group.

Last year, the Quinn Group made profits of 433m euros - an increase of nearly a third on 2006. It also bought the health insurer BUPA Ireland.

Mr Quinn and his wife and children own the companies outright and are believed to have amassed a personal fortune of nearly 4bn euro.

The Quinn Group employs more than 5,000 people throughout the world and have recently expanded into India and Russia.

Mr Quinn began in business in 1973 at a small gravel pit on the family farm in Derrylin, County Fermanagh.





You go on about VHI losing customers to BUPA and getting time to sort it out? Why? Why do they get time to sort out their solvency ratios when QD didn't? Why do they get the deadline extended and extended with no action against them apart from cash injections provided by the state.

You keep going on about QD using profiits to finance other companies. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't breach the solvency ratio. It's the solvency issue that put QD into admin. Are you really not following this? VHI have worse solvency than QD yet are being given time to sort it out.

Also QG weren't moving money. They were using QD assets as guarattees against other QG companies. QD's point is that these would never have been called in by QG. (Breaking the law yes, but not threatening QD policy holders)




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 12:51:23 PM
Quote from: tyronefan on May 27, 2010, 12:37:44 PM


was the option of the government injecting cash into QD discussed but the government said at the time that they were not allow to do it because of European law.

Does Europe have a different law for QD than it does for VHI

I would assume so because VHI is the state owned former monoply and it was the trade off for risk equalisation.

QD is a private concern that entered the market and took the younger, profitable customers causing the solvency/cashflow issues for VHI. QD's solvency issues were simply because they didn't want to 'leave' money there that could be put to work elsewhere. Like throwing down the jacks chasing Anglo CFDs.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:49:38 PM

You go on about VHI losing customers to BUPA and getting time to sort it out? Why? Why do they get time to sort out their solvency ratios when QD didn't? Why do they get the deadline extended and extended with no action against them apart from cash injections provided by the state.

Because the solvency issues in VHI were as a result of deragulation and the risk equalisation policy. QD's issues were a company policy - they had the money.

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:49:38 PM
You keep going on about QD using profiits to finance other companies. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't breach the solvency ratio. It's the solvency issue that put QD into admin. Are you really not following this? VHI have worse solvency than QD yet are being given time to sort it out.

But if the profits are actually supposed to be held for solvency, it is a problem.
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:49:38 PM
Also QG weren't moving money. They were using QD assets as guarattees against other QG companies. QD's point is that these would never have been called in by QG. (Breaking the law yes, but not threatening QD policy holders)

So you admit they broke the law, but object to the state pulling them on it?

Bizarre.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 12:59:31 PM
no objection on the state pulling them on it, they were given a record fine and accepted this but this should have been the end of it not run a hugely profitable IRISH owned company into the ground because it was making a mockery of all state-owned or semi-state-owned run businesses  :-\
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:02:42 PM
Because the solvency issues in VHI were as a result of deragulation and the risk equalisation policy. QD's issues were a company policy - they had the money.


It doesn't matter. VHI were given deadlines and warnings about what would happen if they didn't make the deadlines. They when they failed to meet that deadline they were given another one and the warnings were shown to be BS.

But if the profits are actually supposed to be held for solvency, it is a problem.


I completely agree. It's called a solvency problem. One that VHI had aswell.


So you admit they broke the law, but object to the state pulling them on it?

Bizarre.


I never argued that they didn't break the law. my argument with you was with regards to you thinking that the regulator had no other option and that it was all SQ's fault. I've never said that QD were blameless in this, far from it. But it could and should have been dealt with differently. That fault is with the Regulator, Administrator and the Irish Government. QD weren't that far of solvency that it was actually causing a risk. In most other countries he would have been over solvency by 18%. and was on line to get up to the actual rate within the year.

Did you get any joy with that link because I actually think it's BS?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:04:30 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 12:59:31 PM
no objection on the state pulling them on it, they were given a record fine and accepted this but this should have been the end of it not run a hugely profitable IRISH owned company into the ground because it was making a mockery of all state-owned or semi-state-owned run businesses  :-\

Get real. If the state wanted to protect VHI they would have never opened the market. Thats at least your third conspiracy on this so far.

This is about the misuse of solvency funds. Simple as that. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:07:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:02:42 PM

It doesn't matter. VHI were given deadlines and warnings about what would happen if they didn't make the deadlines. They when they failed to meet that deadline they were given another one and the warnings were shown to be BS.


I completely agree. It's called a solvency problem. One that VHI had aswell.

Different problem, different context, different response.


Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:02:42 PM
I never argued that they didn't break the law. my argument with you was with regards to you thinking that the regulator had no other option and that it was all SQ's fault. I've never said that QD were blameless in this, far from it. But it could and should have been dealt with differently. That fault is with the Regulator, Administrator and the Irish Government. QD weren't that far of solvency that it was actually causing a risk. In most other countries he would have been over solvency by 18%. and was on line to get up to the actual rate within the year.

So what are you arguing. Another fine and wait until the risk was critical to act?

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:02:42 PMDid you get any joy with that link because I actually think it's BS?

Link to what? That QD delay as long as possible paying claims or that they were moving money around illegally?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 01:14:59 PM
You keep rattling on about solvency funds when you have been told repeatedly that they were within EU guidelines and would have been ahead of VHI without breaking any rules by the end of this year.

SQ and SQ Group made mistakes, huge mistakes, these were dealt with and accepted. €3.25m into the coffers of the government for misuse of company funds. In 2007, Quinn Group made profits of €433m

The FReg then decided to go in full smack with the size 12's without any objection from the government as the politicians stood idly by when there could have been countless options available to deal with this SOLVENCY issue in so many other ways.

Farcical. I'm getting bored of this debate. If it was in Dublin, you'd be up in arms not doubt.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:19:30 PM
Different problem, different context, different response.


Ok we're not going to agree on this as I believe same problem, different response.

So what are you arguing. Another fine and wait until the risk was critical to act?


If needs be. It would kinda be like another deadline passed for VHI if you like. The risk was never critical, as pointed out it would have passed in most EU countries and was on the rise. Unlike VHI. whatever was better than the alternative wjhich is the mess they've created now. Even putting in Administrators before the cutting of of markets ( As should have been done by the regulator) and allowing them to see were the problems are. There were a few options opened but again he took the drastic step that made sure it was noticed across the water.


Link to what? That QD delay as long as possible paying claims or that they were moving money around illegally?

Yes you see I think your a liar on this one. If anything QD are renown for their settling of claims quickly. So I actually think you've pulled this out of your ass, hoping it wouldn't be noticed, unless you can give me a link that might back that up?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 01:14:59 PM
You keep rattling on about solvency funds when you have been told repeatedly that they were within EU guidelines and would have been ahead of VHI without breaking any rules by the end of this year.

The issue is the removal of solvency under the table and you know it.

Quote from: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 01:14:59 PMSQ and SQ Group made mistakes, huge mistakes, these were dealt with and accepted. €3.25m into the coffers of the government for misuse of company funds. In 2007, Quinn Group made profits of €433m

So what? We are talking about the insurance arm.

Quote from: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 01:14:59 PMThe FReg then decided to go in full smack with the size 12's without any objection from the government as the politicians stood idly by when there could have been countless options available to deal with this SOLVENCY issue in so many other ways.

Its not a solvency issue. Its a fraud issue.

Quote from: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 01:14:59 PMFarcical. I'm getting bored of this debate. If it was in Dublin, you'd be up in arms not doubt.

No, I have no time for that sort of parochial gombeenism. the law is the law regardless of what local idiots Quinn got out to protest on his behalf with a view to getting a pass for himself.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 01:24:08 PM
anyone with an ounce of common sense would know that this should have been dealt with in a totally different manner and could have meant the business could have been whipped back in to line without jeoaprdising thousands of jobs.

why are you so anti-QI? If they decided to loan some money from one part of the company to another as it was there, thats hardly the fraud crime of the century???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:28:17 PM
The issue is the removal of solvency under the table and you know it.

Wrong again. The issues that the regulator had were in response to the guarantees that had been declared in the accounts of QD back to 2005 but just hadn't been picked up by the regulator. Now QD can have no issues with the fact that they were picked up but they weren't trying to hide them. These were in relation to QD's assets (Buildings etc) being used as guarantees by QG. By law an insurance company can't use any assests against other companies. Therefore without these the solvency ratio dropped. But QD were unaware of this (Prob going back to an insurance company being run by a business man). but all this was declared in the accounts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maiden1 on May 27, 2010, 01:30:26 PM
There is no point arguing with you Dublinfella.  The government and the regulators let QD go to the wall and put thousands of people directly or indirectly out of work.  The company was making huge profit and had plenty of money to cover all claims (more than VHI and more than most insurance companies in the EU).  The government have been letting VHI break the regulations for 11 years and are giving them another 2 years (which will probably get expended again) to get up to the recommended level.  'VHI are having problems because BUPA took their customers' so what, if I owned a fruit and vegetable shop and went to the bank manager and said I was having solvency problems because someone up the road opened a better one do you think he would have much sympathy for me?  If there is 1 rule for the goose then there should be the same for the gander.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on May 27, 2010, 01:32:44 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:07:08 PM

Link to what? That QD delay as long as possible paying claims or that they were moving money around illegally?

You said Quinn delay paying claims as long as possible, thus putting them in an advantage against other insurance firms, because they dont have to hold the same levels of money. For starters that doesnt follow logic: the same money will still have to go out, just a little later, so the only point where you may have higher levels of cash would be for the first few months of such a policy being implemented. But anyway - explain where your evidence for any of that is.

Looks to me like the government saw the chance to screw a competitor of their own insurance company, and took it. Corrupt scumbags.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:33:44 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:28:17 PM
The issue is the removal of solvency under the table and you know it.

Wrong again. The issues that the regulator had were in response to the guarantees that had been declared in the accounts of QD back to 2005 but just hadn't been picked up by the regulator. Now QD can have no issues with the fact that they were picked up but they weren't trying to hide them. These were in relation to QD's assets (Buildings etc) being used as guarantees by QG. By law an insurance company can't use any assests against other companies. Therefore without these the solvency ratio dropped. But QD were unaware of this (Prob going back to an insurance company being run by a business man). but all this was declared in the accounts.

Get. Up. The. Yard.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:35:16 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 27, 2010, 01:32:44 PM


Looks to me like the government saw the chance to screw a competitor of their own insurance company, and took it. Corrupt scumbags.

This despite them neither knowing about it or having any power to order it? If anything they wanted to stop it as he is quids in with FF.

If they wanted to protect VHI they would have never allowed competition
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:35:27 PM
Any joy on that link DF. Or is this another one of your lies?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:36:57 PM
Quote from: Maiden1 on May 27, 2010, 01:30:26 PM
There is no point arguing with you Dublinfella.  The government and the regulators let QD go to the wall and put thousands of people directly or indirectly out of work.  The company was making huge profit and had plenty of money to cover all claims (more than VHI and more than most insurance companies in the EU).  The government have been letting VHI break the regulations for 11 years and are giving them another 2 years (which will probably get expended again) to get up to the recommended level.  'VHI are having problems because BUPA took their customers' so what, if I owned a fruit and vegetable shop and went to the bank manager and said I was having solvency problems because someone up the road opened a better one do you think he would have much sympathy for me?  If there is 1 rule for the goose then there should be the same for the gander.

QD weren't huckled because of solvency. They were lagged for using these funds for other purposes which SS acknowledges is illegal.

Comparisons wth VHI and the risk equalisation policy are fundamentally wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:37:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:35:27 PM
Any joy on that link DF. Or is this another one of your lies?

Link to what? QD are well known for being difficult to get claims out of and you agree with me on the cash movement.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:42:37 PM
No one is arguing that there wasn't laws broke here. The argument is that you believe the regulator acted in the best way. I and many others disagree. Not least with how he started the admin process.

But comparisons between VHI and QD are viable. If solvency wasn't such an issue for VHI why bother putting deadlines on it and saying they would have to take action if these weren't met. As a Insurance company they are still under the regulations of the FR. And action should be taken against them if they couldn't meet these regulations. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:37:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:35:27 PM
Any joy on that link DF. Or is this another one of your lies?

Link to what? QD are well known for being difficult to get claims out of and you agree with me on the cash movement.

Sorry I going to call you a liar on this unless you can provide a wee bit of proof. But then this wouldn't be the first time you've came on this board spouting sh*te.

Also cash movement isn't accurate. It was issuing of guarantees that involved QD assets. No money moved.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maiden1 on May 27, 2010, 01:56:26 PM
The same regulators could go into VHI next week and see that they have been given 11 years to sort out there issues with solvency levels etc. and say tough sh*t the rules are the rules, you've been given enough time to sort the problems out, no more excuses, stop selling policies until you get it sorted out.  By the sound of it you'd be first on here saying they got what they deserve but they have used common sense in this case and said we will work with you, no one is complaining that they are doing this.  If they had the same approach with QD then there never would have been a problem of the scale there is now.

QD taking a long time to pay out claims is a complete red herring.  All insurance companies try to wait as long as possibly to pay out any claim of more than a few hundred pounds, or avoid paying out at all if possible e.g.  someone claims for whip lash in a car crash, they will be straight on to your doctor for your medical files to see if you ever had a twinge in the past.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyronefan on May 27, 2010, 01:57:28 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:37:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:35:27 PM
Any joy on that link DF. Or is this another one of your lies?

Link to what? QD are well known for being difficult to get claims out of and you agree with me on the cash movement.

have had 2 substantial claims with QD in the past year and was paid within weeks with very little hassle.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 02:02:44 PM
ok, I think we'll conclude that dublinfella is a WUM that is full of sh1te - all agreed say aye!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 02:08:59 PM
Quote from: tyronefan on May 27, 2010, 01:57:28 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:37:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:35:27 PM
Any joy on that link DF. Or is this another one of your lies?

Link to what? QD are well known for being difficult to get claims out of and you agree with me on the cash movement.

have had 2 substantial claims with QD in the past year and was paid within weeks with very little hassle.

It's the one thing that QD are renown for. They always worked on getting claims finalised as quickly as possible. So i think DF picked the wrong lie this time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 02:08:59 PM


It's the one thing that QD are renown for. They always worked on getting claims finalised as quickly as possible. So i think DF picked the wrong lie this time.

It is the one thing they are not reknowned for. At one point they had a policy of rejecting ALL claims.

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=quinn+direct+claims+delay&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on May 27, 2010, 02:47:59 PM
Ask anyone who has any knowledge of the insurance industry. Its how they were able to keep costs down with legal fees, etc.

And sure if what some lad says on a discussion board passes for evidence, why dont you just start quoting yourself? Tool.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 03:44:25 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 02:08:59 PM


It's the one thing that QD are renown for. They always worked on getting claims finalised as quickly as possible. So i think DF picked the wrong lie this time.

It is the one thing they are not reknowned for. At one point they had a policy of rejecting ALL claims.

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=quinn+direct+claims+delay&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

:D

are you for real?

How about something from someone with a bit of knowledge of an insurance industry? Seriously ask any Solicitor, other insurance company and they'll be able to tell you that that QD settle much much faster than other insurance companies.

Of course you'll get individual people who won't like how their claim has been settled. You'll be able to do that against any insurance company. But you were trying to make it look like QD are notorious for stalling on claims when in fact the opposite is true.

Just admit it you made that little lie up and it's came back to bite you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 03:49:56 PM
Is this gonna turn into the under card of the Nally Stand v ard mhacha abu title challenge bout?  ;)  :D

You lied, no I didn't, prove, it, how dare you call me I liar!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 03:52:26 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 03:44:25 PM
It is the one thing they are not reknowned for. At one point they had a policy of rejecting ALL claims.

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=quinn+direct+claims+delay&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

:D

are you for real?

How about something from someone with a bit of knowledge of an insurance industry? Seriously ask any Solicitor, other insurance company and they'll be able to tell you that that QD settle much much faster than other insurance companies.

Of course you'll get individual people who won't like how their claim has been settled. You'll be able to do that against any insurance company. But you were trying to make it look like QD are notorious for stalling on claims when in fact the opposite is true.

Just admit it you made that little lie up and it's came back to bite you.
[/quote]

I have plenty of professional knowledge of the insurance industry and know a couple of people who used to work in Quinn. They are notorious for the delay in their payouts, and you jumping up and down won't change what the majority of posters here know anecdotally at least.

Are you from Fermanagh?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 04:04:09 PM
Nope not from Fermanagh. not that that's got much to do with anything.

But seriously your obvioulsy haven't a clue about the insurance industry if you think QD delay on payments. Your making a  bit of a fool of yourself. QD are the only company that have a fast track system you plum!! They were the ones that brought cost cutting measures in by acting quickly on claims. Anyone in the insurance business will tell you that. Therefore I'll have to conclude that you are indeed telling porkies again on this board. Getting to be a bit of a habit with you isn't it.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 04:16:59 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 04:04:09 PM
Nope not from Fermanagh. not that that's got much to do with anything.

But seriously your obvioulsy haven't a clue about the insurance industry if you think QD delay on payments. Your making a  bit of a fool of yourself. QD are the only company that have a fast track system you plum!! They were the ones that brought cost cutting measures in by acting quickly on claims. Anyone in the insurance business will tell you that. Therefore I'll have to conclude that you are indeed telling porkies again on this board. Getting to be a bit of a habit with you isn't it.

Well I do have 'a clue' from a professional capacity and know a number of people with direct involvement with the company, and their reputation is very poor when it comes to claims.

We are going in circles, and to be fair, you argued a good game until you resorted to personal insults.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 04:24:14 PM
Ok the plum was a bit unfair and I'll happily apologise for that. It's just I have to assume you either don't know your facts about QD and the industry and their settling of claims or else you do and your lying.

Anyone with any knowledge of the Irish insurance system know about Quinns fast track system and how they are the quickest at settling claims. In fact if anything the complaint against then is that they settle too quickly.

Therefore to say they delay on claims looks to me that you were just throwing mud and have been called up on it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: DickyRock on May 27, 2010, 07:32:27 PM
Not wanting to create another argument but to in my thinking it didn't matter what the solvency ratio was as the amount of loans from other parts of the Quinn group secured on QI if called in would've erradicated the solvency level.

Maybe that's why the regulator put the foot down. I do however think that the regulator did move too fast and should've laid down the law and gave QI a few months to get it sorted. It's making a mess of the lives of Fermanagh/Cavan people and if it was a foreign company the gov would be doing their best to keep the jobs. Why did they not do the same for a local company 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 10:38:17 AM
I see VHI are now up for sale. And the first thing they are going to do is give it a cash injection so that it can be regulated.

God isn't it awful fortunate that one of it's competitors took a bad hit a few months ago. That should help the price of it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 28, 2010, 11:53:49 AM
Quote from: DickyRock on May 27, 2010, 07:32:27 PM
Not wanting to create another argument but to in my thinking it didn't matter what the solvency ratio was as the amount of loans from other parts of the Quinn group secured on QI if called in would've erradicated the solvency level.

Maybe that's why the regulator put the foot down. I do however think that the regulator did move too fast and should've laid down the law and gave QI a few months to get it sorted. It's making a mess of the lives of Fermanagh/Cavan people and if it was a foreign company the gov would be doing their best to keep the jobs. Why did they not do the same for a local company

I think thats a red herring. They were on a yellow card and did the exact same thing and got a red. Its that simple. The rest is just idle conjecture.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 28, 2010, 11:59:38 AM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 28, 2010, 11:53:49 AM
Quote from: DickyRock on May 27, 2010, 07:32:27 PM
Not wanting to create another argument but to in my thinking it didn't matter what the solvency ratio was as the amount of loans from other parts of the Quinn group secured on QI if called in would've erradicated the solvency level.

Maybe that's why the regulator put the foot down. I do however think that the regulator did move too fast and should've laid down the law and gave QI a few months to get it sorted. It's making a mess of the lives of Fermanagh/Cavan people and if it was a foreign company the gov would be doing their best to keep the jobs. Why did they not do the same for a local company

I think thats a red herring. They were on a yellow card and did the exact same thing and got a red. Its that simple. The rest is just idle conjecture.

...............................,-~*`?lllllll`*~,............................................. .....
...........................,-~*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll?`*-,..........................................
......................,-~*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll*-,......................................
..................,-*llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.\... ..................................
................;*`lllllllllllllllllllllllllll,-~*~-,llllllllllllllllllll\....................................
................\lllllllllllllllllllllllllll/...........\;;;;llllllllllll,-`~-,................................
.................\lllllllllllllllllllll,-*.............`~-~-,...(.(?`*,`,...............................
...................\llllllllllll,-~*........................)_-\..*`*;..)..............................
.....................\,-*`?,*`)............,-~*`~................../...............................
.....................|/.../.../~,......-~*,-~*`;.................../.\..............................
.................../.../..../..../..,-,..*~,.`*~*..................*...\.......................... ...
...................|.../.../..../.*`...\................................)....)?`~,........... .........
...................|./..../..../........).........)`*~-,............../.....|..)...`~-,..............
.................././.../....,*`-,.....`-,....*`....,---......\...../...../..|..........?```*~-,,,,
.................(............)`*~-,.....`*`.,-~*.,-*.......|.../..../..../...............\..........
..................*-,.......`*-,...`~,..``.,,,-*.............|.,*...,*....|.................\.........
......................*,.........`-,....)-,..................,-*`...,-*.....(`-,..............\........
........................f`-,........`-,/...*-,___,,-~*.....,-*......|....`-,...............\.......
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 12:00:17 PM
Bit like your comment on them delaying claims DF.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 28, 2010, 12:53:22 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 12:00:17 PM
Bit like your comment on them delaying claims DF.

I stand by it. Unless its different in the 6, thats their business model and reputation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on May 28, 2010, 01:27:36 PM
Absolute bollocks. Grow up and admit you didnt know what you were talking about, or alternatively (though you'll find this impossible) get some evidence, as you've already been asked to do. You cant just keep insisting you're right when its clear you're wrong, unless you can bring something new to the argument. The attempt to concede that 'mebbe its different in the 6' doesnt count as anything new, just sounds like the start of a concession....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 01:35:10 PM
Sorry DF. I'll stick to my opinion that you either don't know what your talking about or your a liar.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 28, 2010, 02:21:02 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 28, 2010, 01:27:36 PM
Absolute bollocks. Grow up and admit you didnt know what you were talking about, or alternatively (though you'll find this impossible) get some evidence, as you've already been asked to do. You cant just keep insisting you're right when its clear you're wrong, unless you can bring something new to the argument. The attempt to concede that 'mebbe its different in the 6' doesnt count as anything new, just sounds like the start of a concession....

I say there reputation is x, you say it is y. Its called a difference of opinion, yet somehow I am a liar etc.

Grow up lads.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2010, 02:27:11 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 28, 2010, 12:53:22 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 12:00:17 PM
Bit like your comment on them delaying claims DF.

I stand by it. Unless its different in the 6, thats their business model and reputation.

Interestly I hear anecdotes quite to the contrary.  Admittedly only anecdotes but as worthy of comment as a link to a google search.

What I heard was that they were very, very quick to pay-out.  The practice being to land on the doorstep with a seemingly very generous offer of settlement (to the layman) but resulting in a much smaller settlement (and associated costs) than one which would accrue when the legal profession finished their work.............

I think more pertinent here is the fact that the yellow card had been shown before, followed by no apparent remedial action.

/Jim




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on May 28, 2010, 02:56:41 PM
Quinn Direct made a very wise business decision a numbr of years ago to speed up the claims process and avoid litigation costs by appointing claims managers in the various areas who had authority to make fairly substantial offers for compensation to injured parties.  I dealt with them personally and professionally over the years and had a case I was injured in paid out for car damage and personal injuries in less than 6 weeks.  Delay is not something I have experienced
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 03:40:19 PM
This is the point I've been making to DF for a while now. There are things that can be thrown at QD but what he was claiming was complete BS and indeed anyone with any knowledge of the insurance industry in Ireland would know this. Even people with no knowledge of the insurance industry would know this (the speed of settling became a problem in Belfast were it was being used in insurance fraud by people knowing how quickly QD would settle). Therefore I can only assume that he was just throwing mud at QD with no actual knowledge of what he was claiming or else was purposely lying.

Neither options reflects well on him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on May 28, 2010, 03:55:56 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 03:40:19 PM
(the speed of settling became a problem in Belfast were it was being used in insurance fraud by people knowing how quickly QD would settle).

Now why doesn't that surprise me ::)  I actually remember when they started it, it was around 2001/2002 and  I was working dealing with litiagtion claims.  I had a few people came in with settlement figures 2-3 days after the accident and they couldn't believe it.  The thing that struck me was how close to the "real value" of a claim that they were.  With the average whipper taking 9-12 months for settlement the punters were happy.  Needless to say I got a Form of Authority signed very quickly and negotiated a few extra quid on their part :P

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 03:40:19 PM
Therefore I can only assume that he was just throwing mud at QD with no actual knowledge of what he was claiming or else was purposely lying.

Neither options reflects well on him.

This is hardly a first.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 04:07:02 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on May 28, 2010, 03:55:56 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 03:40:19 PM
(the speed of settling became a problem in Belfast were it was being used in insurance fraud by people knowing how quickly QD would settle).

Now why doesn't that surprise me ::)  I actually remember when they started it, it was around 2001/2002 and  I was working dealing with litiagtion claims.  I had a few people came in with settlement figures 2-3 days after the accident and they couldn't believe it.  The thing that struck me was how close to the "real value" of a claim that they were.  With the average whipper taking 9-12 months for settlement the punters were happy.  Needless to say I got a Form of Authority signed very quickly and negotiated a few extra quid on their part :P

Quote from: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 03:40:19 PM
Therefore I can only assume that he was just throwing mud at QD with no actual knowledge of what he was claiming or else was purposely lying.

Neither options reflects well on him.

This is hardly a first.


:D

I'd say there's a fair few solicitors in Belfast that did a jig the day Quinns were put in Admin. It was cutting chunks outa their work.



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on May 28, 2010, 04:40:15 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on May 28, 2010, 02:21:02 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on May 28, 2010, 01:27:36 PM
Absolute bollocks. Grow up and admit you didnt know what you were talking about, or alternatively (though you'll find this impossible) get some evidence, as you've already been asked to do. You cant just keep insisting you're right when its clear you're wrong, unless you can bring something new to the argument. The attempt to concede that 'mebbe its different in the 6' doesnt count as anything new, just sounds like the start of a concession....

I say there reputation is x, you say it is y. Its called a difference of opinion, yet somehow I am a liar etc.

Grow up lads.

You claimed their entire business model was 'x', even though all the evidence points to the contrary. Its not a difference of opinion, its you being wrong.

Its like me saying 'France doesnt exist', you providing evidence very much to the contrary, and me attributing it to a difference of opinion!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on May 28, 2010, 05:05:58 PM
Quinn insurance do not mess around with the speed at which they settle their claims, they will find ways to get out of them and will often get them settled (without recourse) at much less than a client would if they were with another Insurance Company but speed is definitely not an issue!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on June 03, 2010, 03:51:55 PM
On Primetime tonight.  Will it tell us anything new/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 09, 2010, 01:19:26 PM
Well these administors were money well spent! Looks like half the job cuts they deemed were necessery weren't! And now it's Quinns that are going to have to pick up the cost for their feck up!!

Well done brian, well done!! 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on August 09, 2010, 02:49:21 PM
Please explain !?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 09, 2010, 03:03:48 PM
Quinns were told to make job cuts, Are paying out big redundancies and now it turns out half the jobs cuts weren't needed at all. Quinns are going to end up having to hire new people to replace the ones that have been promised reduntancies!!



 

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on August 09, 2010, 03:20:44 PM
I heard that the majority of the job cuts in the Enniskillen office have been cancelled and that people that were accepted for redundancy have now been told that its been declined.........even though some were due to leave in a matter of weeks, some had new jobs lined up, some had VISA's arranged to USA/Australia etc etc

Talk about a c**k-up, messing around with peoples live here............
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on August 09, 2010, 03:29:30 PM
Think they should count themselves lucky there are people in alot worse off positions than someone being told they could have their redundancy only to be told, hold on a minute heres your job back!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 09, 2010, 03:32:28 PM
Yip complete mess! And it's Quinns that are going to be picking up the cost for the mess. Them administers are well worth their £800 an hr!!  ::)




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 12:50:27 PM
Interesting reading now that it has been shown that the man in question was fully complicit in the corruption and incompedence. I wonder do the GAA puntits like the one who backed the man in his GAA column have anything to say about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 12:58:13 PM
Sean Quinn is paying, and will pay for any wrong doings he's done. That's a hell of a lot more than some people are.  You seem to have made a few comments about SQ on here while avoiding mentioning others who would be equally if not more worthy of criticism. Got a slight issue with SQ by any chance?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 01:11:31 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 12:58:13 PM
Sean Quinn is paying, and will pay for any wrong doings he's done. That's a hell of a lot more than some people are.  You seem to have made a few comments about SQ on here while avoiding mentioning others who would be equally if not more worthy of criticism. Got a slight issue with SQ by any chance?

No I dont, its just all the cheerleader and campaigning from people when this issue originally occurred sickened me. He was made out to be a great saint and that has proven to be as far far the fact as you can get. County boards etc had no place backing one of the people who has the country in the position it is in today.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 01:19:08 PM
Well it seems that you do. You created another thread with the headline Sean Quinn - Financial terrorist. Despite the fact that there was numerous people mentioned in that link. Then when you got little response to that you bring this thread  back up again.
The cheerleading and campaigning was done because of the good work that he had done. Are you now saying that he didn't do anything to help the Irish economy in his 37 odd year history and even more so to the border areas where he brough jobs and investment.
I don't recall anyone saying he was a saint. He wouldn't have got as big as he did had he been one. But what exactly makes him " as far from a saint as you can get?"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenmachine on November 23, 2010, 01:19:57 PM
Dry your eyes you crying soccer bastard.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 01:26:04 PM
?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on November 23, 2010, 01:43:15 PM
pretty sure it was meant for PSTG
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 01:51:36 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 23, 2010, 01:43:15 PM
pretty sure it was meant for PSTG
Pretty sure it wasnt. The man above seems to be a big Liverpool fan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 01:55:23 PM
No arguments there PSTG. I can multi task when it comes to supporting sports.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenmachine on November 23, 2010, 03:06:58 PM
I can confirm it was meant for PSTG. Apologies for any offence caused supersarsfields!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 03:25:25 PM
Not a worry SM. I'm still waiting on an answer from PSTG about why SQ is Satan?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sprinter on November 23, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
i was a loyal customer of quinn car insurance for the last ten years, with no claims in that period of time. last week imy insurance was up and Quinn price went up from €470 to €699 and even though the customer service people Sympathized with me they couldn't come down anywhere near last year's price.

I was thankful to quinn 10 years ago as they were the only company to  quote provisional drivers but their renewal price this year was unreal.

From my analysis Quinn insurance will be gone / goodbye in the next six months, how can they keep going if they continue to lose valued customers like myself.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 03:42:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 03:25:25 PM
Not a worry SM. I'm still waiting on an answer from PSTG about why SQ is Satan?

Sean Quinn is up there with Sean Fitzpatrick, Liam Caroll, Bertie Ahern, Charlie McGreevy etc. The damage the likes of him has caused to this damage wont be forgotten.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 03:47:19 PM
Quinns pricing isn't within their own control anymore Sprinter which is why the premiums have increased unfortunately. The administrators/ Regulator are now controlling everything including the likes of pricing. 
Like you say, I too would have a worry about QI ability to see out these problems.

PSTG. How exactly is SQ as bad as Sean Fitzpatrick, bertie Ahern. I would like the actually reason why you think this not just a general statement like your above post.

Cheers
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 04:09:13 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 03:47:19 PM
Quinns pricing isn't within their own control anymore Sprinter which is why the premiums have increased unfortunately. The administrators/ Regulator are now controlling everything including the likes of pricing. 
Like you say, I too would have a worry about QI ability to see out these problems.

PSTG. How exactly is SQ as bad as Sean Fitzpatrick, bertie Ahern. I would like the actually reason why you think this not just a general statement like your above post.

Cheers

I'll be delighted to. He had a major part to play in the debacle that was Anglo Irish. The bank that is at the core of the problems we are facing at the moment. He then mobilised his staff and supporters into order to try and save his own back. Those who fall highest fall furthest. There are also that allegations made in the RT report from Mark Kieser about other financial irregularities.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 04:27:10 PM
He made big mistakes with AIB which are more than likely going to cost him his largest and most profitable company. He got in too deep with investments in them but he did not default on any loans that he had taken out and was continuing to pay these loans off which is more that alot of other business men have done over the last two or so years. In fact the majority of his investments were made in AIB based on false figures that he had been given which made the AIB look more profitable than it was. So you'd be doing well to lay th blame of Anglo at his feet.

He then mobilised his staff and supporters into order to try and save his own back. Those who fall highest fall furthest. There are also that allegations made in the RT report from Mark Kieser about other financial irregularities

On the first point. He had nothing to do with the mobilisation of his work force. I can say that without any doubt as I prob know alot more thn most on that side of things. You seem unable to accept that his workforce have a great deal of respect for SQ himself and alot would still go out of their way to help him. And it's not surprising considering he always provided good working conditions and above industrial averages pay for most if not all areas of his businesses.

Have to say, not sure of what allegations Mark Kiesler has reported on but sure why not throw them up here for us to see?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 04:29:34 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 04:27:10 PM
He made big mistakes with AIB which are more than likely going to cost him his largest and most profitable company. He got in too deep with investments in them but he did not default on any loans that he had taken out and was continuing to pay these loans off which is more that alot of other business men have done over the last two or so years. In fact the majority of his investments were made in AIB based on false figures that he had been given which made the AIB look more profitable than it was. So you'd be doing well to lay th blame of Anglo at his feet.

He then mobilised his staff and supporters into order to try and save his own back. Those who fall highest fall furthest. There are also that allegations made in the RT report from Mark Kieser about other financial irregularities

On the first point. He had nothing to do with the mobilisation of his work force. I can say that without any doubt as I prob know alot more thn most on that side of things. You seem unable to accept that his workforce have a great deal of respect for SQ himself and alot would still go out of their way to help him. And it's not surprising considering he always provided good working conditions and above industrial averages pay for most if not all areas of his businesses.

Have to say, not sure of what allegations Mark Kiesler has reported on but sure why not throw them up here for us to see?

Make no mistake about it your a Sean Quinn apologist. Great man to work for all right. His greed and recklessness will very well cost the jobs of all Quinn employees.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 04:32:51 PM
Awww good man. Ran out of arguement so just throw in an auld insult.  :D

Your debating skills would require a brush up.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on November 23, 2010, 06:19:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 04:32:51 PM
Awww good man. Ran out of arguement so just throw in an auld insult.  :D

Your debating skills would require a brush up.

I read somewhere a foreign hack saying we need a new poultry metaphor for Cowen as Lame Duck doesn't quite do it.

I think we need a new term for the likes of PSTG as troll doesn't quite do it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on November 23, 2010, 07:01:29 PM
Quote from: sprinter on November 23, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
i was a loyal customer of quinn car insurance for the last ten years, with no claims in that period of time. last week imy insurance was up and Quinn price went up from €470 to €699 and even though the customer service people Sympathized with me they couldn't come down anywhere near last year's price.

I was thankful to quinn 10 years ago as they were the only company to  quote provisional drivers but their renewal price this year was unreal.

From my analysis Quinn insurance will be gone / goodbye in the next six months, how can they keep going if they continue to lose valued customers like myself.
mine went from 440 to 605 and that was with allianz, fbd said the best they could give me was 650 - costs are going up, not sure what the problem is, have heard there's been an increase in spurious claims, but don't know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mc_grens on November 23, 2010, 07:20:59 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on November 23, 2010, 07:01:29 PM
Quote from: sprinter on November 23, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
i was a loyal customer of quinn car insurance for the last ten years, with no claims in that period of time. last week imy insurance was up and Quinn price went up from €470 to €699 and even though the customer service people Sympathized with me they couldn't come down anywhere near last year's price.

I was thankful to quinn 10 years ago as they were the only company to  quote provisional drivers but their renewal price this year was unreal.

From my analysis Quinn insurance will be gone / goodbye in the next six months, how can they keep going if they continue to lose valued customers like myself.
mine went from 440 to 605 and that was with allianz, fbd said the best they could give me was 650 - costs are going up, not sure what the problem is, have heard there's been an increase in spurious claims, but don't know.

I was 600-ish with Quinn, an my renewal was over 800.

I ended up getting 325 with Axa through the postoffice. It was 5 quid dearer than doing it direct with AXA, but the excess was half!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 07:59:31 PM
I'd say the fact that Quinns hasn't been able to price as keenly as they would have will prob have a knock on effect on prices across the board. Much like when QI first opened other insurance companies had to cut their costs. Now the opposites happening.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 15, 2010, 10:00:55 AM
Looks like bad news for Quinns coming out shortly. It'll be bye bye to hundreds of more jobs in the Cavan, Fermanagh areas as a result.  Looks like this American Insurer will be taking over. If it does it'll mean the regional offices will all close. things about to get a bit tougher in that area!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 16, 2010, 11:16:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 15, 2010, 10:00:55 AM
Looks like bad news for Quinns coming out shortly. It'll be bye bye to hundreds of more jobs in the Cavan, Fermanagh areas as a result.  Looks like this American Insurer will be taking over. If it does it'll mean the regional offices will all close. things about to get a bit tougher in that area!!


Who is posied to take over ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 12:05:18 PM
Quinn group Press release in response to administrators claim that there was no offer involving Quinn family.

Anglo/Quinn Family proposal for QUINN Insurance

By way of update and clarification to our employees, customers and supporters, the board of Quinn Group (ROI) Limited would like to confirm that, contrary to recent reports, a detailed proposal by the Quinn family working in conjunction with Anglo Irish Bank which:

•Protects all policy holders;
•Protects employment in Ireland including a vibrant and profitable export service business;
•Ensures continuing competition in the Irish insurance market; and
•Facilitates the repayment of €2.8bn of Quinn family debt to Anglo / taxpayer;
has been with the board of Anglo Irish Bank and available to the relevant departments of the Irish Government for over six months. The proposal has cross-party and cross-border support.

The proposal presented sees Quinn Insurance Limited remain 100% in Irish ownership under the control of a newly established independent board fully compliant with the requirements of the Financial Regulator.

Quinn Insurance Limited has enjoyed the highest profit margins of any general insurance company in Ireland over the past 10 years and under the proposal 100% of the economic benefit is retained for the Irish taxpayer. Over the 10 year period 2000-2009 Quinn Insurance Limited achieved a Combined Operating Ratio of 86.5% compared to the general insurance market at 94.9%, an out-performance of 8.4% by Quinn Insurance Limited *.

We confirm that the Quinn family remains fully committed to the successful implementation of this proposal. We continue to impress upon all stakeholders the need to give the proposal full and proper consideration to ensure that its objectives, as set out above, are achieved.


However it looks like Anglo have said they are not considering this option and that the proposal they are hoping to run with is the Liberty Mutual which will mean up to the guts of 2000 more job losses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 12, 2011, 02:18:15 PM
Why do they not want to allow Quinn to retain ownership ?

Do they want all their money in one lump by virtue of a sale to Liberty ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 02:31:14 PM
It's looking that way OM. The deal QD were offering would involve paying it of over a seven year basis while retaining all the Irish and NI jobs. If Mutual come in they have confirmed that they would be getting rid of the Cavan, Navan and Enniskillen offices.

There's been alot going on behind the scenes but it looks like it will be a new ownership which will mean Huge job losses in Cavan and Fermanagh. It's going to leave that border area like a ghost town. The problem is with the two Brians. They have an opportunity to step in and try and negotiate a deal that would allow the jobs to be retained and control to stay with Quinns with payments going to Anglo. But neither of them will lose face on the process now despite knowing it would be the best outcome.
If the sale was delayed until after the GE then there would be a far better chance of getting a solution. But that's not looking likely as the sale will prob be finished within the next month.

Tough times ahead unfortunately for me and a lot of others in that area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on January 12, 2011, 02:33:07 PM
Sad to see that of of the economic traitors greed will mean people losing jobs.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 02:35:15 PM
Good man Pete, that didn't take long.  :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 12, 2011, 03:30:04 PM
7 years doesn't seem like a long time to hold out for their money.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on January 12, 2011, 04:03:30 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 12, 2011, 03:30:04 PM
7 years doesn't seem like a long time to hold out for their money.
Maybe it's a case of a bird in the hand OM. 

The whole thing is and was very unfortunate and maybe something will be worked out that might save many of the jobs.

Where will the jobs be going if they're moved from Enniskillen, Cavan etc?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 04:11:06 PM
Not sure where the jobs will go bb. Maybe overseas call centre or blended in with their own structures. But Liberty Mutual have said they won't require the staff or local offices so would mean massive job losses. I think these job losses are the only stumbling block with the sales process at the minute as the gov have realised what sort of an impact this will have. Only for this the sale would have been completed by now.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 12, 2011, 04:51:17 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 12, 2011, 04:03:30 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 12, 2011, 03:30:04 PM
7 years doesn't seem like a long time to hold out for their money.
Maybe it's a case of a bird in the hand OM.  The whole thing is and was very unfortunate and maybe something will be worked out that might save many of the jobs.

Where will the jobs be going if they're moved from Enniskillen, Cavan etc?


You're probably right there.

It will be an awful blow if there are to be further significant job losses in that region.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerry on January 12, 2011, 09:58:52 PM
be a big lost for the enniskillen economy if/when it closes and with the new hospital nearing completion there is not much happening on the job front.

did you see the amount of southern cars parking outside the new hospital last week, easily out numbering local cars
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on January 12, 2011, 11:33:20 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 04:11:06 PM
Not sure where the jobs will go bb. Maybe overseas call centre or blended in with their own structures. But Liberty Mutual have said they won't require the staff or local offices so would mean massive job losses.

Where did you hear this about the local offices Supersarsfields? I know someone who works in Quinn in Cavan although they will probably be the last to hear anything.

They have been led to believe that there are 2 bids from Anglo/Liberty and Zurich. The Quinn bid collapsed because Anglo would not stump up the money required by the regulator to fix the balance sheet.

I wouldn't mind but the CEO of Liberty is from Derrynoose!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 09:37:35 AM
Quinn considers challenge to group's administration order

Thursday January 13 2011

  SEAN Quinn may challenge Quinn Insurance's descent into administration if Anglo Irish Bank insists on excluding the businessman's family from a bid for the stricken insurer.

The news comes ahead of a crunch meeting between Anglo executives and Mr Quinn's lieutenants today, where the Quinn contingent will urge Anglo to reconsider a joint proposal to take over Quinn Insurance Limited (QIL).

Anglo and the Quinn family spent more than eight months developing a joint plan to take over QIL and leverage the insurer to repay €2.8bn worth of debt owed by the Quinns.

Anglo subsequently decided to pursue a bid with US insurance giant Liberty Mutual.

"We're continually urging them to revisit it [the bid decision] and we'll be urging them to revisit it again [at today's meeting]," said Kevin Lunney, a key lieutenant of Mr Quinn and a former general manger of QIL.

If the Quinn family is unable to convince Anglo to revive the joint bid, Mr Lunney said the family would "have to give consideration to" using a legal opinion to challenge QIL's original descent into administration.

"We got that legal opinion a long time ago, but we didn't want to use it if we could pursue a strategy with Anglo [that would save the 6,000 Quinn Group jobs and guarantee repayment of the debt]," he said.

"We still don't want to go down that route, but we'd have to give it consideration . . . that's not a threat, it's just something we'd have to consider."

The legal opinion from a UK firm, seen by the Irish Independent, says the Financial Regulator should not have concluded that the €1.2bn in guarantees offered by QIL subsidiaries impinged on the insurer's solvency.

The impact of those guarantees on QIL's solvency was a key reason for the Financial Regulator's decision to put the insurer into administration last April.

Mr Lunney said the Quinn family's position might change if it was given a "satisfactory explanation" for why its bid was jettisoned in favour of a bid with Liberty Mutual.

The Quinns believe their joint Anglo bid would have secured full repayment of the €2.8bn debt within seven years, by giving Anglo 100pc of QIL's earnings and then selling the company as well as other Quinn assets.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 09:44:57 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on January 12, 2011, 11:33:20 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 04:11:06 PM
Not sure where the jobs will go bb. Maybe overseas call centre or blended in with their own structures. But Liberty Mutual have said they won't require the staff or local offices so would mean massive job losses.

Where did you hear this about the local offices Supersarsfields? I know someone who works in Quinn in Cavan although they will probably be the last to hear anything.

They have been led to believe that there are 2 bids from Anglo/Liberty and Zurich. The Quinn bid collapsed because Anglo would not stump up the money required by the regulator to fix the balance sheet.

I wouldn't mind but the CEO of Liberty is from Derrynoose!

This was coming from Liberty themselves as far as I know. They had said that they only wanted to keep one office in Ireland and that would be the Dublin office. The sale had been more than or less 99% done before Christmas until this came out. Then once the local politicians heard this they pulled back from it. As far as I've heard Liberty aren't interested in the UK business (This alone will mean job losses). Again it's hard to know exactly what is happening as Anglo were denying a possible deal with the Quinns existed and now their meeting with Quinn Representatives today to discuss the sale. It really is hard to keep up with!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 13, 2011, 10:29:44 AM
It's time to forget about the whole argumnent here about Sean Quinn and Anglo and it's time to focus on the employees whose futures are more important than political point scoring.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on January 13, 2011, 10:37:11 AM
I suppose you will forget about Fianna Fail and the banks s well?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on January 13, 2011, 10:37:37 AM
Seanie Fitz on Quinn :

Seán Quinn: On September 11th, 2007, FitzPatrick and the then Anglo chief executive David Drumm met Seán Quinn and his associate Liam McCaffrey in the Ardboyne Hotel in Navan, Co Meath, so Quinn could tell them about his huge clandestine investment in the bank via "contracts for difference" (CFDs).
"David was more up to speed clearly about the activities of CFDs. He was bringing me because he always felt that Quinn regarded me as a superhuman, as a superhero. He wanted Quinn to see how disappointed I would be."
When FitzPatrick learned the size of the Quinn holding "I was physically shocked. I wasn't expecting that. I said: What! David said afterwards to me that he looked at [Quinn] and that he saw the surprise in Quinn's eyes at my reaction."
Fitzpatrick thought Quinn was a "real 1960s Irishman. He was one of those hail fellow well met, ah sure I will go down there and play the old cards, five or six lads for 10 bob, or whatever it was. He was always producing all that and would be nearly blessing himself. Everything will be all right. He was very human but, I didn't easily like him."
On March 25th, 2008, the four men met again, this time in a room in Buswells Hotel in Dublin. The ongoing fall in the Anglo share price was threatening the Quinn business empire and the bank. At one stage Quinn and FitzPatrick were alone in the room.
"He was very close to tears. He could see what was happening."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bcarrier on January 13, 2011, 10:53:40 AM
QuoteSeanie Fitz on Quinn :

Seán Quinn: On September 11th, 2007, FitzPatrick and the then Anglo chief executive David Drumm met Seán Quinn and his associate Liam McCaffrey in the Ardboyne Hotel in Navan, Co Meath, so Quinn could tell them about his huge clandestine investment in the bank via "contracts for difference" (CFDs).
"David was more up to speed clearly about the activities of CFDs. He was bringing me because he always felt that Quinn regarded me as a superhuman, as a superhero. He wanted Quinn to see how disappointed I would be."
When FitzPatrick learned the size of the Quinn holding "I was physically shocked. I wasn't expecting that. I said: What! David said afterwards to me that he looked at [Quinn] and that he saw the surprise in Quinn's eyes at my reaction."
Fitzpatrick thought Quinn was a "real 1960s Irishman. He was one of those hail fellow well met, ah sure I will go down there and play the old cards, five or six lads for 10 bob, or whatever it was. He was always producing all that and would be nearly blessing himself. Everything will be all right. He was very human but, I didn't easily like him."
On March 25th, 2008, the four men met again, this time in a room in Buswells Hotel in Dublin. The ongoing fall in the Anglo share price was threatening the Quinn business empire and the bank. At one stage Quinn and FitzPatrick were alone in the room.
"He was very close to tears. He could see what was happening."

WAFC that Fitzpatrick is.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 11:01:14 AM
Quote from: ludermor on January 13, 2011, 10:37:11 AM
I suppose you will forget about Fianna Fail and the banks s well?

It's not really a case of forgetting about the banks. Under the current proposal by Quinns, Anglo would receive their full dept back again as well as retaining the jobs in Ireland. It will just take seven odd years which is hardly an eternity given the amounts involved. The next week or two will be make or break.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on January 13, 2011, 11:34:26 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 04:11:06 PM
Not sure where the jobs will go bb. Maybe overseas call centre or blended in with their own structures. But Liberty Mutual have said they won't require the staff or local offices so would mean massive job losses. I think these job losses are the only stumbling block with the sales process at the minute as the gov have realised what sort of an impact this will have. Only for this the sale would have been completed by now.

I have a number of friends and relations working for Quinns and none of them have heard this about the local offices being closed.......whats your source ?

Surely employing people in the local offices would be cheaper than employing a workforce in Dublin.....

Surely if the sale process has progressed to having 2 potentail bidders left then theres no way a deal between Anglo & Quinn can now happen............what happens with the 2 bidders left, can we just tell them to feck off we were only messing about selling.......

Ah the whole thing is a mess...............i just wish we'd soon know one way or another.......
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 11:58:38 AM
I don't want to go in too much on where I got my details from on here but as far as I know Brendan Smyth and the other politicians were made aware of Mutual's plan with regards to the jobs as well. In fact this was the reason the sale didn't go through in Dec as expected ( again this is from what I've heard).
With regards the sale process there's nothing to stop an Anglo Quinn bid going through if it's the best option. It wouldn't mean telling the other two bidder to "feck off" or anything. It would be simple enough to say they weren't successful. The problem is that I don't think that's going to happen so I'd be fearful of employees futures (my own included) when the sale is completed.

Like you say it would be nice to know one way or the other at this stage.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 12:17:47 PM
just with regards to there not being a Quinn Anglo bid.


Quinn Anglo takeover plans emerge
Author: Mairi MacDonald

Source: Post | 13 Jan 2011

Details of the Quinn family's discussion with Anglo Irish Bank over a possible joint takeover of Quinn Insurance have emerged in the Irish press.
The Irish Times has reported that the family proposed to pay holders of some €1.3bn of Quinn Group debt a cash payment of up to €200m, in lieu of guarantees over the assets of the insurance business's subsidiary companies.

The newspaper added: "Among the proposals within the Quinn plan submitted to Anglo are that the family would purchase Quinn Insurance from the administrators for a nominal sum of €1, with Anglo investing up to €650m so that the company meets solvency requirements."

It claimed that the proposal outlined plans to float or sell the company "in seven years".

The sale of the insurance business is expected to be announced in the next two to four weeks.


Read more: http://www.postonline.co.uk/post/news/1936812/quinn-anglo-takeover-plans-emerge#ixzz1AutuSLa0
Post - Insurance news for the UK. Subscribe now.


So it seems there been alot of mis-information being put out by all parties in this sales process. With that in mind I'd put my hands up to say anything I have posted has just come from what I've heard or from media outlets like the above article. Stories seem to change daily unfortunately.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Evil Genius on January 13, 2011, 12:38:30 PM
Quote from: FarneyMan on January 13, 2011, 11:34:26 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 04:11:06 PM
Not sure where the jobs will go bb. Maybe overseas call centre or blended in with their own structures. But Liberty Mutual have said they won't require the staff or local offices so would mean massive job losses. I think these job losses are the only stumbling block with the sales process at the minute as the gov have realised what sort of an impact this will have. Only for this the sale would have been completed by now.

I have a number of friends and relations working for Quinns and none of them have heard this about the local offices being closed.......whats your source ?

Surely employing people in the local offices would be cheaper than employing a workforce in Dublin.....

Surely if the sale process has progressed to having 2 potentail bidders left then theres no way a deal between Anglo & Quinn can now happen............what happens with the 2 bidders left, can we just tell them to feck off we were only messing about selling.......

Ah the whole thing is a mess...............i just wish we'd soon know one way or another.......
Can't claim to know anything about the ins-and-outs of the Irish insurance market, but in the end, all such companies are interested only in  profit.

That is, Liberty will only be interested in Quinn's business/clients, not their staff or offices. And if, as well as taking clients from Quinn, they can also put Quinn out of business permanently, that would be a tremendous coup for them.

As for staff being cheaper etc in Cavan/Ekn than Dublin etc, with the current state of the Irish economy, I doubt whether Liberty's existing Dublin staff are so busy that they could not handle the extra business from Quinn (overtime, temps etc). And in the end, if they really did need more staff to cope, then they could always take on ex-Quinn staff, probably on reduced terms, at whatever location (Cavan/Ekn or Dublin etc) which suits them (Liberty) best. 

Tbh, I'm not one for Governments saving jobs at all costs (even though I really fear for the economy of the border counties if Quinn goes under). For in the end, when a Government subsidises an unproductive job for Worker A, they can only do so by taking extra tax etc from Worker B, who is in a productive job. Eventually, you risk taking so much from Worker B that his/her job becomes unproductive, so that both become a burden on Worker C etc.

Imo, the argument for saving Quinn (i.e. by giving them their 7 years etc) is actually that this will keep the Irish insurance market competitive, which is actually good for the whole of the country. If it also keeps extra workers in employment in one region of the country, so much the better.

Unfortunately, I fear that just as Liberty will only be interested in profit, Cowen & Co will only be interested in trying to clinging on to power somehow, regardless of how slim their chances are. So that if Liberty's offer gives them even an extra month or two etc, they'll probably take that - and bugger the long-term consequences for everyone else.  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyroneboi on January 13, 2011, 01:07:00 PM
Dreadful that jobs are going to be lost and having been unemployed at various times myself it isn't a nice position to be in to say the least. From a purely selfish point of view, my car insurance is up with Quinns at the end of February. How are policies being affected by this latest takeover news? Are prices going up etc??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 01:14:32 PM
Pricing is all over the place TB. Some people are getting crazy quotes and others don't seem to be affected. My own policy was up there and it dropped from £550 ish down to £480 or something close. So it's hard to know what way you'll be affected.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 10, 2011, 11:05:22 PM
Just back from a meeting of the lisnaskea chamber of commerce regarding the Quinn sale. Cross border and cross party representation at it.
It is actually crazy what is happening with regards to this by both the Financial regulator and by their inaction, the two Brians (and this in-action spreads before the recent changes with the Irish gov).
And it's going to be both the tax payer and employees who are going to feel the effect of this.
How a proposal that has been passed by every body involved in the process as being the only proposal that would satisfy the main points ( payment of dept to taxpayer, retain jobs in the local community, protect policy holders etc) has been declined by an emotive regulator who won't respond to direct questions put to him regarding the sale and hides behing the fact that he is unaccountable is going to cost the Irish tax payer 2.8 billion euro. Add to that the probable loss of jobs In a community that is struggling anyway and it's actually unbelievable. And yet that looks like wat is going to happen.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bcarrier on February 10, 2011, 11:10:13 PM
Why would the regulator be emotive ?

I can understand why others would be.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 10, 2011, 11:11:36 PM
So what is the latest SS ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 10, 2011, 11:30:22 PM
Quote from: bcarrier on February 10, 2011, 11:10:13 PM
Why would the regulator be emotive ?

I can understand why others would be.

There's been a few reasons to be honest. The main one is the fact that he fecked up putting QIL in admin in first place ( both the way he went about it and the reasons behind it). The Quinns decision has been the biggest one he made since coming in. And if Quinns were to get it back now after costing upwards of £200m used up by keeping them in admin for a year it wouldn't reflect well on the way he went about it ( he could have given the company time to sort the solvency like other insurers have in the past. Indeed if Quinns do lose this it's going to result in a huge legal battle regarding the regulator's actions.   
There has been other accusations that have been directed his way aswell regarding his decision to put Qil into admin but I'll not put them up here but you can pm me if you want.
I suppose the main reason alot of people think that he is being emotive is that he can't/ won't justify questions put to him regarding the sale. If there was economic reasons it would be easier to give the reasons rather than leave them unanswered.

OM at the minute they are reviewing two proposals from foreign insurance companies. But neither fits in with the main requirements. Yet regulator prevented the Quinn/ Anglo proposal going ahead and won't give reasons why.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 10, 2011, 11:56:44 PM
Shocking amount of money - £200million !!!


Is the Quinn bid dead in your opinion ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 12:24:28 AM
It's out of the picture at the min OM as the regulator didn't submit it. So techinically it's should be dead. But the only saving grace is that neither of the other two options successfully meets the requirements. And in the last few weeks there has been increasing political influence being exerted by cross border and cross party reps to find out why the Quinn proposal hasn't been forwarded for review. It was too easy for the regulator to ignore Quinn reps when they were asking questions about  why their proposal had been refused, it's another to ignore politicians!! So hopefully if the sale can be stalled til after the new election there might be some hope. Brian Lenihan had refused to discuss the matter for the last three months and refused to attend meetings regarding it so hopefully the quicker a new finance minister is in the better.
But I'm not hopeful. At the end of the day the regulator isn't accountable to the finance minister as he's completely untouchable so he can avoid any questions if he wants to. And it seems like that's what he's going to do!!
I'll try and go into the Quinn proposal in a bit more detail tomorrow but it's head and shoulders above any other option. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 11:42:35 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 10, 2011, 11:30:22 PM
Quote from: bcarrier on February 10, 2011, 11:10:13 PM
Why would the regulator be emotive ?

I can understand why others would be.

There's been a few reasons to be honest. The main one is the fact that he fecked up putting QIL in admin in first place ( both the way he went about it and the reasons behind it). The Quinns decision has been the biggest one he made since coming in. And if Quinns were to get it back now after costing upwards of £200m used up by keeping them in admin for a year it wouldn't reflect well on the way he went about it ( he could have given the company time to sort the solvency like other insurers have in the past. Indeed if Quinns do lose this it's going to result in a huge legal battle regarding the regulator's actions.   
There has been other accusations that have been directed his way aswell regarding his decision to put Qil into admin but I'll not put them up here but you can pm me if you want.
I suppose the main reason alot of people think that he is being emotive is that he can't/ won't justify questions put to him regarding the sale. If there was economic reasons it would be easier to give the reasons rather than leave them unanswered.

OM at the minute they are reviewing two proposals from foreign insurance companies. But neither fits in with the main requirements. Yet regulator prevented the Quinn/ Anglo proposal going ahead and won't give reasons why.

Or maybe he is right to be suspicious of any deal that seems to good to be true involving Anglo and Quinn, whose owners have lied, cheated and stole recently?

You are askng the Regulator to trust Sean Quinn, the reciepient of the largest and second largest ever fines in Irish legal history and Anglo, which is the biggest bankruptcy in global history,  claiming he has an 'agenda' when he doesn't?

Thank God no-one who matters is buying this parochical nonsense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 11, 2011, 11:50:34 AM
If it was in our own parish, I think we might be more inclined to believe it as well and it might not sound like nonsense at all.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 12:49:52 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 11:42:35 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 10, 2011, 11:30:22 PM
Quote from: bcarrier on February 10, 2011, 11:10:13 PM
Why would the regulator be emotive ?

I can understand why others would be.

There's been a few reasons to be honest. The main one is the fact that he fecked up putting QIL in admin in first place ( both the way he went about it and the reasons behind it). The Quinns decision has been the biggest one he made since coming in. And if Quinns were to get it back now after costing upwards of £200m used up by keeping them in admin for a year it wouldn't reflect well on the way he went about it ( he could have given the company time to sort the solvency like other insurers have in the past. Indeed if Quinns do lose this it's going to result in a huge legal battle regarding the regulator's actions.   
There has been other accusations that have been directed his way aswell regarding his decision to put Qil into admin but I'll not put them up here but you can pm me if you want.
I suppose the main reason alot of people think that he is being emotive is that he can't/ won't justify questions put to him regarding the sale. If there was economic reasons it would be easier to give the reasons rather than leave them unanswered.

OM at the minute they are reviewing two proposals from foreign insurance companies. But neither fits in with the main requirements. Yet regulator prevented the Quinn/ Anglo proposal going ahead and won't give reasons why.

Or maybe he is right to be suspicious of any deal that seems to good to be true involving Anglo and Quinn, whose owners have lied, cheated and stole recently?

You are askng the Regulator to trust Sean Quinn, the reciepient of the largest and second largest ever fines in Irish legal history and Anglo, which is the biggest bankruptcy in global history,  claiming he has an 'agenda' when he doesn't?

Thank God no-one who matters is buying this parochical nonsense.

Again your taking Sh*te about something you obviously know nothing about. The Quinn/ anglo deal means Quinns give up any role in the company. They aren't involved in any part of it. The only conditions they made were that the jobs were kept local and that the profits over the seven years go to pay of the debt to the Irish tax payer.

Have you read the proposal Dublinfella?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 01:02:47 PM
Sarsfileds,

A backroom deal between Anglo and Quinn is the main reason that Quinn Insurance is at deaths door.

You are now, with a straight face, criticising the Regulator for not approving a second backroom deal between Anglo and Quinn.

The substance of the deal is irrelevant. Neither party has the credibility.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:17:30 PM
Now again your taking cr*p. Do you think this deal has been trashed out by Quinn and Anglo by themselves? Don't be so stupid. it's been done using all the financial bodies, including PWC among other, it's been stress tested has been shown to have no holes in it.
As you didn't answer my question above I'll assume that you haven't read the proposal and therefore know nothing about what it says. Neither anglo nor Quinn are going to be active in the new company. It would have an independant board of directers that have neither no connections to Quinns nor have to answer any questions from Quinns. It would involve the full regulation of it's accounts including solvency. Therefore the credibility of angle or Quinn has little relevance.

The alternative to this is bringing in a Third party like Zurich or Liberty which will mean two things. The loss of jobs locally and the none payment of £2.8Billion Euro to the tax payer.

Your saying that the only issue is the credibility of the two parties involved in this. Even allowing for this ( Despite the fact, as I've already explained, neither party is going to be involved in running the business) are you saying that because of this credibility issue they should decide on a proposal that ignores two of the major three points that were outlined as areas of concern?  Surely that's cutting of your nose to spite your face? Which is what has been levelled at the regulator. So in a roundabout way you've kinda shown my point regardin the amazement by all political representives at the regulators actions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 01:34:14 PM
The regulator has a job to do.

That is to maintain a solvent and consumer friendly financial sector. And this regulator has done a good job considering the mess he inherited, and that is commonly accepted.

Quinn Insurance are a bust flush due to the possibly criminal actions of their owner in gambling client funds to make a quick buck off Anglo, with their full support. Lets not forget that vital piece of information.

He, and his office, are not buying what SQ and Anglo are selliing, and experience suggests they are damn right. All your emotive language matters not a jot when the simple reality is that the rogues who destroyed the company are not trusted to fix it again.

I'm waiting for you now to start with the fact he is a Brit. Its about as cereberal as the rest of yur posts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 01:34:14 PM
The regulator has a job to do.

That is to maintain a solvent and consumer friendly financial sector. And this regulator has done a good job considering the mess he inherited, and that is commonly accepted.

Quinn Insurance are a bust flush due to the possibly criminal actions of their owner in gambling client funds to make a quick buck off Anglo, with their full support. Lets not forget that vital piece of information.
He, and his office, are not buying what SQ and Anglo are selliing, and experience suggests they are damn right. All your emotive language matters not a jot when the simple reality is that the rogues who destroyed the company are not trusted to fix it again.

I'm waiting for you now to start with the fact he is a Brit. Its about as cereberal as the rest of yur posts.

You really have no idea about what happened with Quinn and Anglo do you? Once this sale goes through ( And unfortunately it looks like it will) two things are going to happen. Quinns have been advised that they have a legal case against both the regulator and Anglo and that' what's going to happen.

I see the way you have avoided answering any of the questions I've asked you.

Firstly have you read the proposal?
Secondly do you think  the regulator should pick an option that is going to cost the tax payer money and loss jobs when it has been approved by everyone but him that it's the best option?
Do the think the regulator should be allowed to make this decision without given reasons behind his choice considering the value of what's at stake.
And finally do you think that the Regulator is immune to making mistakes just because he's unaccountable?

As for your last point? I suppose that's the standard of debating I've come to expect from you. You came on this thread before and attempted to make false accusations about the way Quinn work and you showed yourself up as at the least ignorant and at worst dishonest.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 03:26:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:46:58 PM

You really have no idea about what happened with Quinn and Anglo do you?

I do indeed. Need a lesson in CFD's?


Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
Once this sale goes through ( And unfortunately it looks like it will) two things are going to happen. Quinns have been advised that they have a legal case against both the regulator and Anglo and that' what's going to happen.

Advised by who? The regulator has ultimate veto over all mergers and acquisitions in the financial services market. Copperfastned in legislation. More bluster.

Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
I see the way you have avoided answering any of the questions I've asked you.

No I haven't but, here we go.

Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
Firstly have you read the proposal?

Yes.

Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
Secondly do you think  the regulator should pick an option that is going to cost the tax payer money and loss jobs when it has been approved by everyone but him that it's the best option?

Who is 'everyone'? The Quinn family? The Anglo board? Irrelevant.

Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
Do the think the regulator should be allowed to make this decision without given reasons behind his choice considering the value of what's at stake.

Yes. Its his job, its enhsrined in legislation. The actors involved have proved themselves to be untrustworthy.

Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
And finally do you think that the Regulator is immune to making mistakes just because he's unaccountable?

He is accountable, just not to Sean Quinn. And of course he can make mistakes. But in this case I don't think he has.

Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
As for your last point? I suppose that's the standard of debating I've come to expect from you. You came on this thread before and attempted to make false accusations about the way Quinn work and you showed yourself up as at the least ignorant and at worst dishonest.

Is it not very clear to you by now that I have some inside track on this.

The rules have changed. The local robber baron can't click his fingers and get what he wants anymore. Its a regulated industry and the rules have changed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 04:19:48 PM
I doubt you have any inside track on this considering how far off you are on most of it. And considering your previous allegations that were ripped to pieces forgive me for not taking your word on that.

I do indeed. Need a lesson in CFD's?[/sup
Do you wana explain why Sean Quinn isn't facing fraud charges then?

Advised by who? The regulator has ultimate veto over all mergers and acquisitions in the financial services market. Copperfastned in legislation. More bluster.

Not Bluster at all. Regardless of whether the Regulator is untouchable or not he still has regulations that he has to follow as well. Including due process when putting a company into Administration. He failed in this and it is more than likely going to involve a legal action against the position of the regulator (Granted Quinns can win no compensation from the regulator as he's untouchable in that sense but can show that he acted unlawfully if that is the case).
The case agaisnt Anglo regarding the outstanding dept should be pretty clear even to you. Again resulting in the Tax payer footing the bill.
Quinns have been advised this by their legal advisers ( Again whether they are successful or not will be another thing but I'd take the advise of them before taking the advise from yourself DF) that they have solid cases against both.

Who is 'everyone'? The Quinn family? The Anglo board? Irrelevant.

PWC, IMF, Anglo, politicians both North and south and Cross party, CIB. Infact the only one that's had issue with it is the regulator who has decided he isn't going to give reasons for why he ditched the proposal. If he even gave reasons for why it was refused then we would be getting somewere. And for someone who was so keen to speak about the sales process up to thi point it's kinda strange that he's suddenly decided to stay stum now!!

Yes. Its his job, its enhsrined in legislation. The actors involved have proved themselves to be untrustworthy.

So if he was making a F*ck up you'd be happy enough that he doesn't have to explain his actions? Right so!

He is accountable, just not to Sean Quinn. And of course he can make mistakes. But in this case I don't think he has.

He' reports to the High Court but he isn't accountable to anyone. Not the finance minister or anyone.
But thankfully as was mentioned by a few of the political representatives last night they are now starting to call for a public enquirey on his handling of this sale. I'd be very interested to see how that would pan out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 04:20:44 PM
apologies for the feck up in quoting. Kinda doing everything in a rush here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 04:34:05 PM
The IMF support Quinn over the Irish state.   ;D

Will you stop the lights. What a load of waffle.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 04:46:54 PM
It seems clear enough to me that you have no idea what's in the proposal, you have no idea who has been involved in the drawing up of this proposal and you have seem to have no interest this decision could mean to people.

In other words I'm trying to tell you that your full of Sh*te.

The IMF have said that if the money that is being touted is to be invested by Anglo to shore up the solvency issue in Quinns is required they see no reasons why it shouldn't be used for that. Considering it would be sitting in an account untouched anyway as it is only to fulfil the solvency ratio ie having liquid asset.

So yet you still havent given a reason why the regulator shouldn't at least explain why the proposal isn't on the table? Instead you've faffed about talking cr*p. Surely if he had legit reasons why not come out and say them now? He's been quick enough to speak out in the past regarding this not least the "show me the money comment". Surely that would be the best way to clear things up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 05:04:20 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 04:46:54 PM
It seems clear enough to me that you have no idea what's in the proposal, you have no idea who has been involved in the drawing up of this proposal and you have seem to have no interest this decision could mean to people.

In other words I'm trying to tell you that your full of Sh*te.

The IMF have said that if the money that is being touted is to be invested by Anglo to shore up the solvency issue in Quinns is required they see no reasons why it shouldn't be used for that. Considering it would be sitting in an account untouched anyway as it is only to fulfil the solvency ratio ie having liquid asset.

So yet you still havent given a reason why the regulator shouldn't at least explain why the proposal isn't on the table? Instead you've faffed about talking cr*p. Surely if he had legit reasons why not come out and say them now? He's been quick enough to speak out in the past regarding this not least the "show me the money comment". Surely that would be the best way to clear things up.

Anglo's money is state money, so either way it costs the taxpayer. And in light of the governments decision to force a merger and wind down of Anglo and INBS, its even more pie in the sky.

I have explained that the regulator is under no obligation whatsoever to explain his decisions to anyone, although I agree he should.

The solvency issues, as you euphamisctically put it, in Quinn Insurance are caused by high jinks with Anglo. Now you are claiming the only credible solution to this is another deal with Anglo. Surely you can see why there would be resistance to that?

Can I ask you a simple question. Who do you blame for this mess?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 05:14:13 PM
 :D Your kinda showing yourself up a wee bit for a guy in the "know"

You do reaslise that the other proposals involve anglo stumping up as well??? So no matter what it means the state putting in money. Only with the Anglo Quinn deal all profits are ringfenced and paid directly to the tax payers and after seven years they then sell the business and take full profits from the sale. This proposal as has been confirmed by PWC would mean the tax payer getting roughly 4.8 Billion over the seven years. Compare this to the loss of 2.8 billion otherwise.

But I'm wasting my time. From the post above you have no idea what is going on nor know anything about the Quinn Anglo proposal.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 05:17:10 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 05:14:13 PM
:D Your kinda showing yourself up a wee bit for a guy in the "know"

You do reaslise that the other proposals involve anglo stumping up as well??? So no matter what it means the state putting in money. Only with the Anglo Quinn deal all profits are ringfenced and paid directly to the tax payers and after seven years they then sell the business and take full profits from the sale. This proposal as has been confirmed by PWC would mean the tax payer getting roughly 4.8 Billion over the seven years. Compare this to the loss of 2.8 billion otherwise.

But I'm wasting my time. From the post above you have no idea what is going on nor know anything about the Quinn Anglo proposal.

I know about the proposal. I just believe that I am more likely to return 4.8bn to the exchequor in 7 years than they are.

And I assume the regulator has the same cynicism.

You are very loyal for whatever reason. You are taking proven liars, chancers and vagabonds at their word.

But you ignored my question. Who is the one person who has put these jobs in peril with his greed?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 05:35:50 PM
As I've said before Quinn made a huge mistake getting involved with anglo and it's cost him everything. And if it's not going to get sorted it's also going to cost Quinn employees aswell. I've no problem admitting that.
And while you may argue otherwise Quinn has been loyal to his employees. This proposal takes him out of the company that he was most proud of and takes away any say over that company. Yet he is fighting to keep it not just to keep payments on his dept ( As mentioned if he loses QIL he's taking action against Anglo to get the dept written of so either way) but to maintain employment in the area. That might be hard for someone from Dublin to grasp but it' true.

Regarding your other comment about you being more likely to make 4.8 billion over the next 7 years. You'd want to tell your friends the Administators and the regulator that, considering it was based on figures they themselves are using and projecting :D

My loyality isn't blind. I owe alot to SQ personally and I'll admit to the mistakes he's made. But without him I wouldn't have been able to afford to own the house I'm in at the minute.
He's made a whole lot of right decisions as well. And no one can doubt the fact he has been loyal to the area he's help develop and farther afield in Ireland when he could have easily outsourced to another country for cheaper.
What I can't understand is why a Regulator who is as you say is wrongly refusing to give reasons is being allowed to make this decision without any other interference. As you said yourself, the regulator should just give his reasons and if their acceptable then that's it over. His refusal to do this is what is fuelling the fires which believe he is acting above his remitt by stopping the anglo quinn proposal going to the Administrators
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 05:41:53 PM
To be honest with you, I don't give a damn about his loyalty to the area, real or percieved.

Thousands of jobs are at stake because SQ broke the law and gambled with policyholders money.

Just because he is liked in an area does not give him a pass.

And with respect, if you work for the company, are you in a position to look at this impartially? You have a vested interest in the deal going one way. And that way might not be in the policy holders or states interest.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 06:04:48 PM
Well agree to disagree then as I do give a damn about his loyality.

Thousands of employees are in jobs because of risks SQ took.

He's hardly asking for a pass. He's giving up his company!!

My working for a company doesn't stop me viewing anything. I can see the mistakes he's made and know what the implications are as a result of them. But I can also see the implications of the way this sales process has ben driven. Two wrongs don't make a right. No point in punishing him just for the sake of it when your going to be punishing alot more than just him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 22, 2011, 01:24:20 PM
Latest news on the Quinn Sale.


From Post.ie


The Quinn Group is expected to renew its efforts to be involved in the buyout of Quinn Insurance, after it was confirmed that no decision on the insurer's future would be made until after the general election.

It is understood that the group has commissioned a report from an international accountancy firm, which questions the Financial Regulator's decision to put Quinn Insurance into administration on March 30 last year.

The new government is expected to face intensive lobbying to review the decision, which led to the insurer being put on the market.

The regulator and the administrators have also been urged to reopen Quinn Insurance's British commercial insurance business, which was shut down by the regulator on the same day the administrators were appointed.

At the time, the regulator said that the reason behind the move was ''to prevent Quinn Insurance Limited suffering further financial losses from its currently unprofitable UK business'', but the Quinn Group claims the commercial business was operating profitably.

A report commissioned by the administrators from EMB, a firm of specialist insurance auditors, suggests that parts of the British business were profitable, although the overall British business was loss making.

Quinn Insurance had about 250 staff in Enniskillen working on the British commercial business, which had customers including Tesco and building firm Laing O'Rourke.

However, those jobs are expected to be lost as part of the restructuring of the insurer.

The sale of Quinn Insurance has reached its final stage, but the administrators confirmed to the firm's staff last Thursday that no decision would be made until the new government was formed.

The two final bids are understood to be from a joint venture between Anglo Irish Bank and US firm Liberty Mutual, and from Swiss insurer Zurich.

The Quinn Group had been in talks with Anglo about a joint bid for the insurer, which it claimed would protect jobs and allow full repayment of the €2.8 billion owed to Anglo by the group and its founder, Sean Quinn. However, it was ruled out of the running late last year, and none of the final bids for the firm involved the group.

Supporters of Quinn have stepped up their efforts to have the administration and sale process reviewed following the latest delay.

A meeting took place last Tuesday between groups that support Quinn's proposal for the company, including a cross-party political group led by Sinn Fe¤ in TD Caoimhghin O'Caoláin.

The meeting was also attended by representatives of the Quinn Group, members of Cavan Chamber of Commerce, and lobby group Concerned Irish Business.

They plan to communicate directly with the chief executive of the National Treasury Management Agency (which will fund Anglo's part of any bid), Central Bank governor Patrick Honohan and Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan. It is understood that members of Cavan County Council will meet the Financial Regulator, Matthew Elderfield, on February 28.

In the e-mail to staff last week, one of the administrators, Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton, said there were ''a number of matters'' that could not be finalised until after the election. However, he said he could not go into details of any of the bids, ''as to do so may impede our ability to deliver a very good deal for the company and its staff''.

''I want to stress that the sales process has not been suspended, and that this delay is due to the political climate that the country is currently experiencing, not due to lack of interest on behalf of the bidders," he said.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on February 22, 2011, 02:18:23 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 05:41:53 PM
To be honest with you, I don't give a damn about his loyalty to the area, real or percieved.

Thousands of jobs are at stake because SQ broke the law and gambled with policyholders money. Just because he is liked in an area does not give him a pass.

And with respect, if you work for the company, are you in a position to look at this impartially? You have a vested interest in the deal going one way. And that way might not be in the policy holders or states interest.
I don't think that's the case actually.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on April 12, 2011, 11:08:46 AM
Poacher becoming gamekeeper?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0412/1224294481758.html

A joint venture proposal from State-owned Anglo Irish Bank and US insurer Liberty Mutual (whose interest was first reported in these pages last year) seems to be in pole position. Insurer Zurich is also in the mix.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 12, 2011, 12:53:49 PM
There's alot going on behind the scenes here at the minute. The Liberty Mutual deal definitely looks like the most likely outcome at this stage unfortunately (IMO).

Was glad to see that the high court rejected the Administators request to have a private hearing on the sale.

There'll be alot left to run on this saga after the sale process is finished.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 12, 2011, 01:08:10 PM
Is Quinn definitely out of the bidding process SS ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 12, 2011, 01:16:47 PM
Hard to say OM. There's still alot of work going on behind the scenes from what I hear and I think there might be a few meetings this week in fact. They are still trying to push the SQ proposal but to be honest I would be surprised if they managed to pull things around at this stage.

But at the end of the day until someone else buys it he's still got a chance all be it a small one.

There could be some pretty big fall out from this whole thing once the sales aspect is sorted.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 13, 2011, 07:42:05 PM
From the Anglo Celt. 

Quinn Group proposal was submitted just last week
by Tom Carron Comments (0) |  Print |  Email
A fully costed Quinn Group proposal for the acquisition of Quinn Insurance is on the table of the joint administrators since last week and has been forwarded to the bankers selecting a buyer.
This was revealed at Monday's meeting of Cavan County Council when Quinn Group executives, Kevin Lunney and Dara O'Reilly, presented the Quinn proposal, which they claim will reimburse the state with the €2.8bn owing to Anglo Irish Bank by the Quinn family within seven years; exploit the company's profitability and guarantee jobs.
Predicated on government backing, the submission seeks €500m cash from an Irish bank to cover the solvency requirements of the financial regulator, although Mr Lunney and Mr O'Reilly said there was €1bn in funds at Quinn Insurance and the €500m was not required to meet claims or running costs. They said a meeting was likely with the Minister for Finance, Michael Noonan, tomorrow Thursday. Responding to a question from Cllr Peter McVitty, Mr Lunney said they had sought meetings with the previous minister, Brian Lenihan, without success. In a response to Cllr John Paul Feeley, Mr Lunney revealed that the Quinn proposal had only gone to the table of the joint administrators last week. He conceded that up until then their proposal had not been submitted in the formal sense.
Cllr Andrew Boylan called on Taoiseach Enda Kenny, Minister Michael Noonan and Minister Richard Bruton "to use their offices to ensure that... the business stays in Cavan. We will not contemplate somebody... relocating it to Dublin or outside the country".
Mr Lunney said they were seeking the support of Cavan County Council for the proposal. He pointed out that the Quinn Group contributed €1.3bn in taxes to both the Republic and the North and under their proposal the company could quickly return to the point when it could make €100m in a tax contribution annually. He said the Quinn Group wage roll in the Republic was €90m and in the North €50m annually. Contractors supplying the Quinn Group contributed €200m in taxes.
"It is proven that the business in Northern Ireland and the UK is profitable. It is regrettable that business is lost to competitors - we want to make sure that it is not lost to the community," he said.
The Quinn executives pointed out that the proposal was now in exactly the same position as the Liberty Mutual/Anglo proposal.
Council chairman, Cllr Des Boylan, said: "I sincerely hope it will be thoroughly examined and will be successful" and the council decided to email forthwith a resolution to that affect to the government.


I just hope FG have bigger balls than FF had.  But I wouldn't hold my breath! At least it seems that the Quinn proposal has now been allowed to reach the table.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 14, 2011, 11:40:45 AM
Quinn Insurance has announced Liberty Mutual and Anglo Irish Bank as the preferred bidder for the company.

In a separate announcement, Anglo Irish Bank has announced that Kieran Wallace of KPMG will take control of the Quinn family's shares in Quinn Group.

He will oversee the appointment of a new board of directors to the group.

It is proposed that Liberty Mutual will provide the management and insurance expertise to Quinn Insurance.

Anglo Irish Bank will retain a minority shareholding in the new firm but will have no dealings in the day-to-day management of the new company.

It is hoped a deal will be finalised within the next four to six weeks.

The High Court heard that all 1,570 jobs in the Republic and in Northern Ireland will transfer to the joint venture. Cavan will remain the head office of the business.

As part of the plan, the Navan office is to close and the 100 staff will relocate to either Blanchardstown or Cavan.

30 staff employed in Manchester are to be offered redundancy.

In a statement, the Central Bank said it noted the announcement from Quinn Insurance.

A petition signed by 90,581 people was also presented to Minister for Finance Michael Noonan asking that any plan for Quinn Insurance's future be fully examined before a decision is made.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 12:01:10 PM
Gutted when I got the news this morning.

Anyone looking experienced Claims investigator? Free to good home.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 14, 2011, 01:13:03 PM
Quote from: Declan on April 14, 2011, 11:40:45 AM
Quinn Insurance has announced Liberty Mutual and Anglo Irish Bank as the preferred bidder for the company.

In a separate announcement, Anglo Irish Bank has announced that Kieran Wallace of KPMG will take control of the Quinn family's shares  in Quinn Group.
He will oversee the appointment of a new board of directors to the group.



It is proposed that Liberty Mutual will provide the management and insurance expertise to Quinn Insurance.

Anglo Irish Bank will retain a minority shareholding in the new firm but will have no dealings in the day-to-day management of the new company.

It is hoped a deal will be finalised within the next four to six weeks.

The High Court heard that all 1,570 jobs in the Republic and in Northern Ireland will transfer to the joint venture. Cavan will remain the head office of the business.

As part of the plan, the Navan office is to close and the 100 staff will relocate to either Blanchardstown or Cavan.

30 staff employed in Manchester are to be offered redundancy.

In a statement, the Central Bank said it noted the announcement from Quinn Insurance.

A petition signed by 90,581 people was also presented to Minister for Finance Michael Noonan asking that any plan for Quinn Insurance's future be fully examined before a decision is made.

Does the bit in bold mean that Sean has also lost the Quinn group as well as Quinn insurance??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on April 14, 2011, 01:20:27 PM
QuoteDoes the bit in bold mean that Sean has also lost the Quinn group as well as Quinn insurance??

I  think so. Instead of waiting for Quinn to pay back the loot, they now have the company.

I wouldn't think Seanie Fitzpatrick is on Quinn's Xmas  card list.  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 01:22:45 PM
From what I've heard that's the just of it FG. Not only the group but also the hotels, overseas properties etc.

I'm sure it will see the start of a huge legal fight on behalf of Quinn and I hope to feck he wins it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 14, 2011, 01:29:22 PM
Thats a shocker. 
Did not see that comming.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 14, 2011, 01:34:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 12:01:10 PM
Gutted when I got the news this morning.

Anyone looking experienced Claims investigator? Free to good home.
best of luck to you and all the other Quinn group workers.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 01:50:06 PM
Thanks LB. Couldn't have happened at a worse time. Got my wedding coming up now in the summer and just finished buyin a site!! Doubt that'll be put on hold for the time being!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 14, 2011, 01:56:30 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 01:50:06 PM
Thanks LB. Couldn't have happened at a worse time. Got my wedding coming up now in the summer and just finished buyin a site!! Doubt that'll be put on hold for the time being!!

Yea best of luck SS.

Don't know much about this but how can a bank that is being wound down, announced the biggest corporate losses in our history - losses bigger than the entire income tax take for the year, is considered an international pariah and is the subject of a promise by the new Government not to receive any new funding....win a bidding contest?

Surely the idea is to put Quinn into better management.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 02:01:10 PM
The idea is that Anglo won't have any input in the day to day management of QIL. That's why liberty are there for their insurance expertise. They've been more or less handed a free pass into insurance in Ireland and the UK with anglo stumping up the cash and taking the risk.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 14, 2011, 02:52:11 PM
Are you sure that SQ has lost control of the entire group ?


I can't see that being able to be pushed through without a serious legal challenge.


It's some mess. Not what we needed at this or any time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 03:03:52 PM
I'm only going on reports from the news and from speaking to a few other employees but it seems that they have taken control of everything.

There'll be a legal challange but it'll take years for any conclusion to come from that. Still in shock at this decision tbh. I knew the insurance was more or less a goner (despite the lies that has obviously been told to QD representatives over the last week or so) but I didn't think they would take the Group.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 14, 2011, 05:22:33 PM
From the Irish Times:

The Quinn Group is to undergo major financial and corporate restructuring following the appointment of a receiver to the Quinn family's share in the business by Anglo Irish Bank.  Seán Quinn and his family will no longer have any role in the management, operations or ownership of the group under the plan, which was announced today.  Mr Quinn was unable to repay €2.8 billion in loans that built up through borrowings from Anglo Irish that he used to fund massive share investments in the bank. Other lenders to the Quinn Group are owed some €1.28 billion.

Kieran Wallace of KPMG has been appointed share receiver and will take control of the family's interests in the group. Mr Wallace will oversee the appointment of a new board of directors.  Anglo chief executive Mike Aynsley said the appointment would have no impact on the day-to-day operation of the company. "A share receiver is different from normal receiver, which takes over the assets of a company," he said.  Mr Aynsley said that there "will no doubt be some write offs" associated with the overall level of debt owed to Anglo Irish Bank by Mr Quinn.

Quinn Group chairman Pat O'Neill said an agreement in principle had been reached with its lenders on a way to restructure its debt. This is expected to relieve the manufacturing side of the group of some €500 million of debt over a period of five years.  The Quinn Group is involved in the manufacture of glass, insulation materials, packaging, plastics and radiators. More than 2,600 are employed in the group's manufacturing activities, with 1,000 of the jobs in Ireland.  Mr O'Neill said the restructuring would provide financial stability and sustainability to the group.  "We do not anticipate job losses from or related to this restructuring," he said. "On the contrary it will help to protect jobs. There are no plans whatever to break-up the manufacturing businesses."

Minister for Finance Michael Noonan welcomed the debt restructuring plan agreed between Anglo Irish and the Quinn lenders. "This structure will enable the good and strong businesses to continue to trade and grow. It is particularly important that there will be no impact on employment, on trade creditors or on day-to-day operations of the Quinn Group," he said.  Lenders to the Quinn Group, including Irish and other international institutions, said they looked forward to working with the newly appointed board.  "The debt restructuring plan includes a substantial debt reduction on the group's manufacturing operations which will provide the foundation for the Quinn Group's future growth and success," they said in a statement.

The Quinn Group has also announced the appointment of a new chief executive. Paul O'Brien (43), currently a non-executive director of Quinn Group having joined the board last November, is to take over from Liam McCaffrey.  Mr O'Brien was chief executive of Four Leaf Investment NV, which operates a number of hotels in Belgium and France. He previously worked with Compaq and UTV Media plc.

It was also announced today that a joint venture of US insurer Liberty Mutual and Anglo Irish Bank have been selected as the preferred bidder for the general insurance business of Quinn Insurance Ltd.  While the deal has yet to be finalised and the contracts of sale have yet to be signed, it is envisaged there will no job losses among the insurance firms 1,570 employees in the Republic or Northern Ireland as a result.  If successful, the bid would see Liberty Mutual, the fifth largest insurer in the US, take complete responsibility for the operation of the new business.  Joint administrators Michael McAteer and Paul McCann said Anglo would have no involvement in the day-to-day operation of the new company, but would act in a loan recovery capacity.

Quinn Insurance was placed in administration in March of last year at the request of the Financial Regulator.  Mr O'Neill said Mr Quinn had deservedly earned the respect for the work he did starting and building up the Quinn Group businesses.  "Sadly, in more recent years a number of well-publicised events have left the manufacturing group with substantial borrowings which, quite simply, the group could not service. If these debts were not restructured, the businesses could not survive in their present form," he said.  Mr Quinn stepped down as head of the group in May of last year. His family owned as much as 28 per cent of Anglo Irish Bank at one point, having built their shareholding through contracts for difference, which did not require them to reveal their stakebuilding.  The stock declined rapidly as the financial crisis worsened, eventually wiping out Mr Quinn's €2.8 billion investment after Anglo was nationalised in January 2009.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 05:37:07 PM
I don't think there will be  immediate job losses within the group to be fair. It seems to be on a level footing and most are geographically tied to the area with the factories, quarries etc.
But I'd be very surprised if there's not more redundacies from the insurance side within the next 6months. In addition to the numbers quoted in the papers there's roughly 1000 self employed Claims Managers that only work for Quinn. We've been more or less told that the likelyhood of Liberty keeping us on is small. Course there'll be little mention of these job losses in any of the papers. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on April 15, 2011, 04:10:21 PM
I feel very sad for Sean he made a huge mistake but hasn't been allow to try and rectify it. Don't understand why Anglo and the government are giving up on the family debt by taking over the company.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 15, 2011, 04:57:05 PM
That's a bit I can't understand myself. I see no benefit in what they have done. He had a proposal that had been stress tested by PWC as a means of paying the debt back over 5-7 years and then on top of that Anglo would have been able to sell a solid insurance company instead of the mess it is now.
They have more or less said that they are never going to get some of it back now. And they have the added risk now of SQ taking legal action against Anglo for falsifying of accounts.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 15, 2011, 08:42:00 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 15, 2011, 04:57:05 PM
That's a bit I can't understand myself. I see no benefit in what they have done. He had a proposal that had been stress tested by PWC as a means of paying the debt back over 5-7 years and then on top of that Anglo would have been able to sell a solid insurance company instead of the mess it is now.
They have more or less said that they are never going to get some of it back now. And they have the added risk now of SQ taking legal action against Anglo for falsifying of accounts.
[/b]

Does that judgement in Belfast court today make that possibility more likely now ?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13097268
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 15, 2011, 08:49:42 PM
What a sad day this is for Cavan & Fermanagh and indeed a lot of other counties too. A man who single handedly created 1000's of jobs when no one would touch the region is not being hung out to dry. Sean Quinn will probably be declared bankrupt soon which will mean he will not be allowed to start a business for 12 years. What a country, we destroy the type of man we desperately need to get us out of this shit we are in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 15, 2011, 09:06:00 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on April 15, 2011, 08:49:42 PM
What a sad day this is for Cavan & Fermanagh and indeed a lot of other counties too. A man who single handedly created 1000's of jobs when no one would touch the region is not being hung out to dry. Sean Quinn will probably be declared bankrupt soon which will mean he will not be allowed to start a business for 12 years. What a country, we destroy the type of man we desperately need to get us out of this shit we are in.

The papers were speculating that SQ will go across the border where bankruptcy laws are more relaxed and less onerous.

12 months in the North and you're up and running again.

I agree with you - SQ and the likes of him are desperately needed at this time to create opportunities. I'm told he had big plans for even more employment in the Fermanagh and Cavan areas.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 15, 2011, 10:40:42 PM
Irish government finally got their man... Quinn Group basically nationalised now with the fact Anglo is stated owned? He made a massive mistake, which can only have been on the basis of numbers that must have looked very appealing. It's all wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 15, 2011, 10:52:21 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 15, 2011, 08:42:00 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 15, 2011, 04:57:05 PM
That's a bit I can't understand myself. I see no benefit in what they have done. He had a proposal that had been stress tested by PWC as a means of paying the debt back over 5-7 years and then on top of that Anglo would have been able to sell a solid insurance company instead of the mess it is now.
They have more or less said that they are never going to get some of it back now. And they have the added risk now of SQ taking legal action against Anglo for falsifying of accounts.
[/b]

Does that judgement in Belfast court today make that possibility more likely now ?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13097268

Not sure tbh OM. Everything is very up in the air at the minute. It could open a whole can of worms if he was successful against Anglo as anyone who invested under the false figures would then be entitled to do the same. But there's a bit to be sorted before it gets that far.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on April 15, 2011, 11:09:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 05:37:07 PM
I don't think there will be  immediate job losses within the group to be fair. It seems to be on a level footing and most are geographically tied to the area with the factories, quarries etc.
But I'd be very surprised if there's not more redundacies from the insurance side within the next 6months. In addition to the numbers quoted in the papers there's roughly 1000 self employed Claims Managers that only work for Quinn. We've been more or less told that the likelyhood of Liberty keeping us on is small. Course there'll be little mention of these job losses in any of the papers.
Deal seems to involve no sale of Quinn Group assets for 5 years so jobs should be safe from that end.

Initially anyway Liberty/Anglo deal is proposing no job losses but once the takeover is complete I suppose they can do what they want after 6 or 12 months.
Maybe I am being naive but would the fact that the CEO of Liberty is from Derrynoose count for anything in terms of keeping jobs in the border areas?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 16, 2011, 10:43:17 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on April 15, 2011, 11:09:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 05:37:07 PM
I don't think there will be  immediate job losses within the group to be fair. It seems to be on a level footing and most are geographically tied to the area with the factories, quarries etc.
But I'd be very surprised if there's not more redundacies from the insurance side within the next 6months. In addition to the numbers quoted in the papers there's roughly 1000 self employed Claims Managers that only work for Quinn. We've been more or less told that the likelyhood of Liberty keeping us on is small. Course there'll be little mention of these job losses in any of the papers.
Deal seems to involve no sale of Quinn Group assets for 5 years so jobs should be safe from that end.

Initially anyway Liberty/Anglo deal is proposing no job losses but once the takeover is complete I suppose they can do what they want after 6 or 12 months.
Maybe I am being naive but would the fact that the CEO of Liberty is from Derrynoose count for anything in terms of keeping jobs in the border areas?

I've heard that mentioned a few times here over he past couple of days.  Maybe but IMHO you don't get to be CEO of a company like this by letting sentiment rule your business decisions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cde on April 16, 2011, 01:07:57 PM

[/quote]
I've heard that mentioned a few times here over he past couple of days.  Maybe but IMHO you don't get to be CEO of a company like this by letting sentiment rule your business decisions.
[/quote]


Sean Quinn   :P
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 17, 2011, 09:11:30 PM
It seems a lot of what the papers are being told regarding these jobs being safe isn't exactly 100%. what's being said behind closed doors by Anglo is a far cry from wat we're being told in the papers.

And it seems they're running scared of this legal challange. I see they're trying the auld emotional blackmail now. Saying a legal challange will threaten the jobs.

Aynsley warned, however, that any move by Quinn to pursue legal action against Anglo over its move to put the Quinn Group into receivership could potentially put the jobs of many of its 4,500 employees at risk.

Legal action, he told Ronald Quinlan, would "not be productive to the interests of the businesses Sean Quinn spent so many years building up, or for the people employed there."



The spin that Anglo are putting into the papers is crazy when you know what's really going on. This move by Anglo is going to go down as one of the worst ever. They've virtually blown any chance of getting the debt back and are going to end up killing employment in that area.

Cement will be the first to feel the pinch and i'd guess less than 6 months before we see the first lay-ofs if not before.  There's even some in the know who reckon you could be looking at the factory closing in that time! It seems SQ is getting a lot of support from his Previous customers. Many stating they won't deal with Anglo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 12:20:18 PM
Truck blocking Quinn HQ entrance 
A dumper truck blocked the entrance to Quinn HQ on Monday morning



A large dumper truck has been placed across the entrance to the headquarters of Quinn Group in County Fermanagh.

The vehicle has prevented cars from going in or out of the Derrylin premises on Monday morning.

It follows the decision by Anglo Irish Bank to remove founder Sean Quinn from his business empire last week.

Mr Quinn's family owes the bank £2.5bn but some people in the border region remain loyal to him, praising him for creating jobs in the area.

Last Thursday, Anglo Irish Bank appointed accountants KPMG to take control of the Quinn family shares in the business.

Anglo Irish Bank chief executive Mike Aynsley said the bank was owed an "enormous" amount of money by the Quinns, which they were not in a position to repay.

Employees have been told that there are no plans for any job losses.

BBC NI District Reporter Julian Fowler said that there has been mixed feelings about Mr Quinn's downfall in the area but some continued to pay tribute to his contribution to the local economy.

The most profitable part of the Quinn empire, Quinn Insurance, is to be sold after being in administration for the past year.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 12:49:03 PM
There was a bit of a hiccup on Friday too. Power line cut going to some of the offices. Workers were without computers for large part of the day.

It's very unfortunate.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 18, 2011, 12:56:32 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 12:49:03 PM
There was a bit of a hiccup on Friday too. Power line cut going to some of the offices. Workers were without computers for large part of the day.

It's very unfortunate.
why are they doing this?

As far as Anglo having any power over redundancies etc, since the state owns Anglo, surely they can be instructed to do whatever the state wants?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 01:06:08 PM
I'd assume it's to disrupt the takeover.

Anglo have no power directly but consultants will be brought in on each sector. And they'll advise job cuts. Especialy since business is going to drop like a stone in certain factorys. You could be looking at a fire sale of the businesses before long just to try and re-group anything from it. Where as if they had continued with SQ in charge they had a chance of paying of the debts. Now not only will they not get the debt repaid there'll be job losses on top of that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 01:41:01 PM
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, SQ should have been allowed to carry on with measures put in place to ensure that the state gets their money back over time.


As it is now, and as things are shaping up, this could all go belly up and jobs and all will go.

SQ has a fiercely loyal base in the border counties and some people at least are now prepared to stand up and be counted.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 18, 2011, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 01:41:01 PM
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, SQ should have been allowed to carry on with measures put in place to ensure that the state gets their money back over time.


As it is now, and as things are shaping up, this could all go belly up and jobs and all will go.

SQ has a fiercely loyal base in the border counties and some people at least are now prepared to stand up and be counted.
What measures did SQ have that would ensure that the state got its money back? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 01:55:38 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 02:07:53 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 18, 2011, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 01:41:01 PM
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, SQ should have been allowed to carry on with measures put in place to ensure that the state gets their money back over time.


As it is now, and as things are shaping up, this could all go belly up and jobs and all will go.

SQ has a fiercely loyal base in the border counties and some people at least are now prepared to stand up and be counted.
What measures did SQ have that would ensure that the state got its money back?

I honestly think that all of that could have been worked out ifg there had been the will. The will wasn't there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 18, 2011, 02:09:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 01:55:38 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory.

I wouldn't have the same feelings towards Quinn as those from the area but he obviously invokes strong loyalties. I must say though I find it incredibly galling and insulting that anyone anywhere has to dance to the tune of Anglo Irish Bank after what they have done. It disgusts me no end.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 02:11:47 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 18, 2011, 02:09:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 01:55:38 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory.

I wouldn't have the same feelings towards Quinn as those from the area but he obviously invokes strong loyalties. I must say though I find it incredibly galling and insulting that anyone anywhere has to dance to the tune of Anglo Irish Bank after what they have done. It disgusts me no end.



Nail on the head.

I think that this is something that most people find greatest difficulty with.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 02:26:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 18, 2011, 02:09:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 01:55:38 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory.

I wouldn't have the same feelings towards Quinn as those from the area but he obviously invokes strong loyalties. I must say though I find it incredibly galling and insulting that anyone anywhere has to dance to the tune of Anglo Irish Bank after what they have done. It disgusts me no end.

Very true Muppet. I've have never hidden the fact that I would be very Pro Quinn. And I accept that in certain areas that would obscure my judgements in some of these matters. And I've never been one to say SQ doesnt have any blame in this whole matter.
But even allowing for someone who might have no loyalities to SQ or to the area in general I still can't understand how someone involved in business could make the decisions that have lead us to where we are now.
How they can make a decision and say ok instead of taking an option that MIGHT repay the dept in full and perhaps even at the end of a few years make a profit, they're going to take one that they KNOW won't pay back the debt and in all likelyhood will reduce the values of all the assets. It just makes no business sense. and at the end of the day it's going to be the tax payers taking the hit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 18, 2011, 02:33:43 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 18, 2011, 02:09:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 01:55:38 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory.

I wouldn't have the same feelings towards Quinn as those from the area but he obviously invokes strong loyalties. I must say though I find it incredibly galling and insulting that anyone anywhere has to dance to the tune of Anglo Irish Bank after what they have done. It disgusts me no end.

Absolutely.

Living in Fermanagh, 50% of me thinks "Well if it wasn't for SQ there would be no businesses to take over" and 50% of me thinks "Well he took an almighty punt on people's jobs and lost heavily" but 100% of me thinks that Anglo has some brass neck.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 18, 2011, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 18, 2011, 02:09:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 01:55:38 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory.

I wouldn't have the same feelings towards Quinn as those from the area but he obviously invokes strong loyalties. I must say though I find it incredibly galling and insulting that anyone anywhere has to dance to the tune of Anglo Irish Bank after what they have done. It disgusts me no end.

I think it is all rotten. Quinn may have done a lot for local people but what he did with the Anglo shares was utterly corrupt. Anglo brought down the sovereign. There is no honour for either of them. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 18, 2011, 05:21:33 PM
http://www.cavanchamber.ie/uploads/Cavan/documents/QIL%20Summary%20Position%20CCC.pdf

The link above takes us to the Quinn proposal - is that the most recent one?  There's no mention of PWC on it, so maybe it's been updated to reflect a more unbiased and realistic plan?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 18, 2011, 05:31:13 PM
Ignoring all the recent issues surrounding this, can anyone explain in simple terms how Quinn and/or the group came to owe Anglo €2.8bn?

I am aware of the €3bn CFD which took a 25% stake in Anglo. That involved SQ putting up €300m and presumably a CFD house put up the other €2.7bn. I am aware of the 'Golden 10' arrangement whereby Anglo 'helped' Quinn reduce his CFD holding.

But how did Anglo specifically end up being the creditor?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 05:35:56 PM
As far as I know BB that's pretty up to date. The proposal was drawn up and stress tested along with PWC.

Why do you think it's unrealistic? The figures for the first few years were actually provided by the administers.
Even if it only hit 70% of what it was estimating it would still be a better option for the tax payers than the current deal.  And that's before you take into account job loses etc.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 11:57:22 PM
Is this a man resigned to defeat ?

Sean Quinn upset at Quinn group restructure

Sean Quinn has said the decision by Anglo Irish Bank to appoint share receivers to the Quinn group was the "greatest upset" in his entire business career.

It was announced on Thursday that Mr Quinn would no longer have any role in the management of his company.

The bank said that Kieran Wallace of KPMG would take control of the Quinn family's shares.

The businessman and his family owe Anglo Irish Bank 2.88bn euros.

Other lenders to the Quinn Group are owed almost 1.3bn euros.

In a statement, Mr Quinn said he and his colleagues had spent the past year developing a proposal which would have allowed them to "discharge fully all the family's obligations to the Irish tax payer".

He said that during this time he had consulted with some of the most respected and experienced individuals in Irish and UK business.

"I am utterly convinced that our proposal could achieve the retention and increase of skilled employment in the group," Mr Quinn said.

The businessman blamed the banks for the company's financial downfall.

'Life sentence'

"Our mistake was to place an over reliance on the Irish banking system and the many predictions for continued sustained growth in the Irish economy from some of the country's leading financial services experts," he said.

"Ireland needs enterprise and entrepreneurs more than ever at this time but mistakes in business should not result in a life sentence."

The Fermanagh man thanked customers and staff for their "huge contribution" to the company's success.

"There is no workforce anywhere that has the talent, commitment, loyalty and determination of the Quinn workforce," he said.

"They have created and sustained skilled employment in regions where this was not seen as possible before."

Mr Quinn said the extensive media coverage since last week's announcement had resulted in some "inaccurate and false" reporting.

A five-year restructuring plan has been agreed between Anglo and the Quinn Group's lenders, aimed at stabilising the businesses, which are described as "fundamentally good and profitable".

Repayment of debt

Anglo Irish Bank chief executive Mike Aynsley said the bank was owed an "enormous" amount of money by the Quinns, which they were not in a position to repay.

He said the bank had taken an approach which protected the businesses and paved the way for maximising the repayment of debt to the Irish tax payer over time.

The company also revealed that Liberty Mutual and Anglo Irish Bank was the preferred bidder for the company.

Liberty Mutual would provide the management and insurance expertise to Quinn Insurance.

Anglo Irish Bank will retain a minority share holding in the new firm but will have no dealings in the day-to-day management of the new company.

It is hoped a deal will be finalised within the next four to six weeks.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 19, 2011, 12:45:07 AM
"Our mistake was to place an over reliance on the Irish banking system and the many predictions for continued sustained growth in the Irish economy from some of the country's leading financial services experts," he said.

Dem's High Court words, imho, allegedly, caveat emptor.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 19, 2011, 08:28:43 AM
Quote from: muppet on April 19, 2011, 12:45:07 AM
"Our mistake was to place an over reliance on the Irish banking system and the many predictions for continued sustained growth in the Irish economy from some of the country's leading financial services experts," he said.

Dem's High Court words, imho, allegedly, caveat emptor.


Quite possible alright.

Sting in the tail en route. Papers lodged shortly.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 19, 2011, 08:39:15 AM
QuoteOur mistake was to place an over reliance on the Irish banking system and the many predictions for continued sustained growth in the Irish economy from some of the country's leading financial services experts," he said.

No recognition of any culpability on his own behalf. He made me do it mammy!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 19, 2011, 11:02:08 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 05:35:56 PM
As far as I know BB that's pretty up to date. The proposal was drawn up and stress tested along with PWC.

Why do you think it's unrealistic? The figures for the first few years were actually provided by the administers.
Even if it only hit 70% of what it was estimating it would still be a better option for the tax payers than the current deal.  And that's before you take into account job loses etc.

To be honest I think the plan is pretty simplistic and very, very vague.  I understand that in situations such as this applicants think that being vague will help their chances, hoping that the other party will not understand what is going on, but it is the wrong approach in this instance.
For example, it's page 12 before we find out that Quinn needs €650m from the taxpayer, and even then it's not exactly highlighted.  That's after reading all sorts of executive summaries and key points etc etc.  Did they not think that might be a key piece of information?
On that same page the report attempts to get a dig at the regulator by stating that the prevailing view is that his requirements are too stringent.  Evidence accompanying that would be good, it's not just enough for a report to state that. 

Page 13 mentions how QIL manages to achieve a Combine Operating Ratio of 8.4% below the market average and directs us to page 19 to see how this is possible, as this is probably the main advantage of the QIL proposal as opposed to a third party, I took a look – page 19 is utter waffle.

The forecasted earnings on Page 9 would need some examination, of course forecasts are precisely that, but there are some fairly major assumptions here.
I confess I don't have much understanding of the figures here, what is the difference in gross written and gross earned premium?  Nor do I understand how they translate to net written and net earned premium.  But the profitability based on net earned premium (which seems to be the key figure) less claims incurred rises every year from 2010 onwards.  From 15% up to 22.5% in 2017, this even though the company envisages growth in net earned premium from 819M in 2011 up to 1114M in 2017, normally companies grow by that sort of multiple by sacrificing profitability and even more so in current market conditions.  Why do they expect premium income to increase by 36%, yet for claims to only increase by 25% - Gay Byrne's road safety campaign?
Another problem on this page is that admin costs as a percentage of net premium income also drops significantly from 9.9% in 2011 to 8.2% in 2017 (it was 12.1% in the current year, but I've disregarded that because presumably UK are still included?), of course a drop in costs like that may be achievable, but there's nothing indicating why or how that is to be achieved.

At the bottom of the page they note that Deutsche bank (Anglo's advisers) and their own advisers have reviewed the plan, significantly they don't even mention who their advisers are or what comments they made on reviewing, given the lack of mention it would appear that they did not want their name on this report in any capacity.

There are more problems with the proposal but I don't have the time to get into them, in my view the proposal is unprofessional and doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.
There's no mention of inflation, of the general economic conditions, of further interest on the 2.8Bn borrowings etc etc.

In my opinion it was written for general public consumption, to try and garner public support in the Cavan/Fermanagh region, this is exemplified by the way they constantly deride the other bid and show how only QIL is really wearing the Green jersey.
This was not a proposal that could be put to government or any lender in today's climate with the hope of being successful. 

Essentially the Quinn family are asking the state to lend them 650M so that they may retain an asset which if everything goes according to the projections in the report can be sold for 2Bn in 7 years time.  This 2Bn along with the sale of several other assets will realise 2.8Bn which the Quinn family can then use to discharge their debts.

I don't have anything against the Quinn's, I have always had a lot of respect for Sean Quinn and his brother, but honestly, how could they have expected the state to do this?  Sure couldn't any developer or property investor ask the state to lend them a few quid so they could keep up the mortgage repayments whilst they start an alternative business which they would hope they could sell to pay back the combined debt in a few years time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 19, 2011, 02:10:33 PM
I'd agree that the proposal is optimistic and vague as well. This is a cut down version than what went to the administers, as in dumbed down for the public.

I'll try and do the best I can from what I know about the issues you raised.

The issue about the 650m Euro not been mentioned earlier is prob a case of get in with the positives first. No point starting with the negative first I suppose. Also this money is getting put in by the tax payers regardless. Anglo are stumpting this up for the Liberty deal as well. And it should be mentioned that this money is just to have on the books for solvency and wouldn't be needed to be spent unless in the worst case scenario. I understand the problem with that is that it's 650m tied up here that could be used elsewere and that's a genuine problem.

With regards to the operating profit I agree I don't see where they get this figure from. So agreed that's a pretty big mess up there. But I would have assumed that these figures would be available somewhere. But regardless your right they messed up not giving where this came from.

The forecasting would be an area I'm not strong on at all. I know that the first few years figures were actually supplied by the administers so therefore they seem to think they are realistic.
I can't really comment on most of the rest of your points with regards to these forecasts as I don't have a clue when it comes to accounts like this. Accounts definitely wouldn't be my strong point!!
The reason they expect premium to increase but not claims to the same extent is down to the new pricing structures that has been put in place. They are reducing their reliance on high risk areas such as young drivers which is a area that QD would have targeted in the past. And the admin figure would be standard enough I would have thought, that it decreases per policy with volume?

I can understand the last part with regards to why they should not do this. The problem of the interest is a huge one and one I noticed my self. But in the liberty proposal they are now taking a minority of the profits (As opposed to all of them if it stayed as QD).

I understand there is problems with this proposal. But I still think it was the best one on offer. The one they have entered into now means a shortfall in the debt by about 2B if the papers are right. They might not have liked doing the deal to keep it in Quinn but it was workable and would have given them a better chance of recouping their money. It just looks now like the cure is worse than the disease.

*Disclaimer *
I know I have Quinn tinted glasses on!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 20, 2011, 08:02:19 PM
Published on Wednesday 20 April 2011 15:43

DESPITE Government assurances that no jobs will be lost as a result of the Anglo Irish Bank takeover of the Quinn Group, local employees and businesses fear that this is not enough to safeguard their futures.

DESPITE Government assurances that no jobs will be lost as a result of the Anglo take over of the Quinn Group, local employees and businesses fear that this is not enough to safe guard their future.

Last Thursday, April 14 it was announced that the Anglo -Irish Bank/ Liberty Mutual proposal are the preferred option for the future of Quinn Insurance and that Anglo Irish Bank has appointed a share receiver to take control of the majority shares held in the group by the Quinn Family. The rushed decision and the swift move in of administrators to the entire Quinn Group has left many unanswered questions about the future of local jobs in the group.

By Fiona Heavey and Leonie McKiernan

Local Quinn Group employees told the Leitrim Observer "this is terrible news, we will be squeezed down to nothing in less than 12 months, our jobs will be gone, the assurances mean nothing."

It is understood that a number of large scale Irish contracts were withdrawn from Quinn businesses last Friday morning in protest over the Quinn family ousting. The contracts are believed to have hit Quinn glass and building product businesses and have done little to convince employees about long term job security.

Leitrim TD Michael Colreavy said he remains very concerned for the future of jobs in the Quinn Group. He said important questions remain unanswered in relation to the events of last week. He said the priority must be to safe guard local employment. Colrevy added that he would seek the reasons why anyone would regard Anglo Irish - a zombie, non functioning bank as a suitable institution to maximise the protection of Irish taxpayer funds.

Chairman of the Quinn Jobs Action Forum Tommy Moran from Ballinamore said "It is ridiculous to say there will be no job losses." He said, "I can't see them keeping many sectors open that are not profitable."

He said many branches of the Quinn group were kept going by the group, relying on successful sectors "they were kept alive out of loyalty to the employees."

So called 'vulture' bond holders are being blamed for forcing Anglo's hand on the Quinn Group debt. The Leitrim Observer has learned that bond holders had sold on their bonds at a substantial loss to companies which specialise in acquiring bonds of companies in difficulty. These so called 'vulture' bond holders then put pressure on Anglo Irish Bank to redeem the debt outstanding against the Quinn Group resulting in bank taking over the Quinn family share in the business last Thursday.

To read the full story and for a special report examining what exactly has taken place over the past week and reaction to the take over by Anglo Irish Bank by Sean Quinn himself, his supporters and people locally see this week's Leitrim Observer.


It seems that there has been a fair few very large irish companies that have pulled the plug on the cement factory and more pledged to follow. And if rumours are to be believed one massive glass contract has also pulled out. Unfortunately I can't see how there won't be job losses as a result of this. Not to mention the value of the companies plummet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 20, 2011, 10:15:26 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 20, 2011, 08:02:19 PMIt seems that there has been a fair few very large irish companies that have pulled the plug on the cement factory and more pledged to follow. And if rumours are to be believed one massive glass contract has also pulled out. Unfortunately I can't see how there won't be job losses as a result of this. Not to mention the value of the companies plummet.
Quote
Why have large irish companies pulled contracts from cement and glass?  What difference to them who owns the insurance group?  What Irish companies even have large contracts with cement in particular any more?

I think it's obvious that jobs will have to go in cement in particular, I suppose it's how those job losses are structured.  The article implies that whilst cement and glass would be going through rough times regardless, the profitable parts of the group would keep them going out of loyalty - do you believe that?  Sean Quinn didn't build up businesses by allowing loss making sectors to exist, maybe for a year, but these sectors won't be revitalised for a long time.  Surely propping these up would be another another drain on the profits made by QIL which were already earmarked for repaying the Anglo Debt.

I don't want to appear to be constantly picking holes in what your posting SS, but this reeks of more green jersey style spin to me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on April 20, 2011, 10:40:37 PM
As someone who takes out large contracts for concrete and blocks for a large builder i can guarentee you that personal loyalty to a company is almost unheard of and it boils down to best value for money and comfort the supplier can deliver the contract. If people are pulling contracts id venture its more to do with the fear teh company will cease rather than loyalty to a man/company
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 20, 2011, 10:47:02 PM
The irish companies have pulled out as either in loyality to SQ or out of a refusal to deal with Anglo.

Cement and glass are two of the profitable parts of the QG. In fact Glass was the biggest earner for QG after the insurance. It was these areas that were keeping other less profitable areas such as packaging afloat.

By the way I'm not saying that the Quinn deal would have been a great deal for taxpayers. But I do believe it was the best one avaliable to offer any chance of debt recovery and to secure jobs in that area. The option they have taken is going to do neither.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 20, 2011, 11:04:53 PM
SS, what is happening the rest of the group other than QIL at this stage?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 20, 2011, 11:18:30 PM
There was directors appointed to certain factories by Anglo over the last few days to take over the running of the companies. I would imagine they will start trying to split them into seperate identies shortly (for instance radiators have people working out of the glass factory and the like). Apart from that there's been little change. I think the plan is to bring consultants in to assess the businesses but don't think that is happening yet. They've settled some of the higher directors and managers and paid them of.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 21, 2011, 12:29:34 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 20, 2011, 11:18:30 PM
There was directors appointed to certain factories by Anglo over the last few days to take over the running of the companies. I would imagine they will start trying to split them into seperate identies shortly (for instance radiators have people working out of the glass factory and the like). Apart from that there's been little change. I think the plan is to bring consultants in to assess the businesses but don't think that is happening yet. They've settled some of the higher directors and managers and paid them of.

Without naming people, can you do a Google on these new directors from Anlgo and tell us are they:

a) career Anglo people;
or
b) professionals parachuted in from reputable (if there any left) financial institutions;
or
c) Healy-Raes, Lowry's, ICTU/IBEC types;

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 21, 2011, 12:39:20 PM
Haven't a clue muppet to be honest. The fiancé works in Quinn radiators so it's her who's keeping me updated on the group but no mentions of who directors are. But I don't think they are Anglo employees (at least I hope not!!)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on April 27, 2011, 09:20:37 AM
A protest took place at the quinn offices glad to see the local community supporting him and calling for government change.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13191624
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0426/quinn.html#video
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 27, 2011, 01:00:46 PM
Was at the protest myself yesterday. Was a good turn out considering the short time frame it was organised. I would have said about 1000 at least in the early part of the morning (6.30 - 9.00am) But I think it's a case of pissing in the wind at the minute. Can't see there being a reversal of the decision made but at least a protest was made against Anglo.
A few things did come out yesterday regarding the deal that was struck. (Again this all came out yesterday so I'm taking it at face value. But most of it seemed to come from a signed document from Anglo)

Firstly the promise that no jobs would be lost is a lie. They can let 10% go in the morning if they wish. and if they want to get rid of more than the 10% they just have to apply to the Irish government before letting them go. ( In essence the Irish government through anglo would have to apply to the irish government if they want to cut more than 10% jobs) So there is no promise to keep jobs.
And a similar thing with regards to the selling of the business. We were told orginally that no parts would be sold of within 5 years. Now they are saying that 25% can be sold of without any questions and if they want to sell of more than that they have to apply to the Government again same as the Jobs.

So I think now that these details have come out the local area is extremely scared about the future.

But on a side issue, not really in relevance to SQ anymore, but prob one that is more important to the rest of Ireland and it's tax payers is that the details of the agreement of the Anglo deal with the bondholders has come out. If all the details I heard are true then Anglo are even less competent that I thought!! And that's saying something!! and this is despite them having greater say over the assets than the bondholders.

Firstly despite what had been claimed there was no write of of debt by the bondholders.
The bonds had been trading at less than 50% of their value yet Anglo has agreed to offer a state backed guarantee of 100% recovery of their value plus after full repayment they will still hold a 25% interest in the group.
The interest rate for the bond holders has trebled.
The additional fees for Anglo trying to run the company are 700,000 Euro a week.
Liberty are just taking over the book of QIL not past claims. Therefore no risk or indeed cost on their behalf. Old QIL claims are being paid out of the Compensation fund rather than by Liberty.

It's a very sad time for the people of that area. The GAA clubs were all there in force to show support as well. Indeed Teemore should get the praise for how quickly the rally was organised.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 27, 2011, 08:23:07 PM
Another protest planned for tomorrow from what I hear.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on April 28, 2011, 09:30:02 AM
any more word on tomorrows protest???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: hsthompson on April 28, 2011, 03:02:03 PM
I only have a vague grasp of what's been going on with this fiasco. Would someone give me a brief enough synopsis of what has happened Quinn's empire and what is next for the man himself. I heard this debt is personal debt, surely he won't have to sell the house and everything and end up in a council estate in Enniskillen on the dole?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 28, 2011, 03:20:10 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0428/breaking26.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0428/breaking26.html)

Some losses
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 28, 2011, 09:29:36 PM
Quote from: hsthompson on April 28, 2011, 03:02:03 PM
I only have a vague grasp of what's been going on with this fiasco. Would someone give me a brief enough synopsis of what has happened Quinn's empire and what is next for the man himself. I heard this debt is personal debt, surely he won't have to sell the house and everything and end up in a council estate in Enniskillen on the dole?
The rumour was that all the kids got €50M a few years ago - hopefully it was cash and not shares in the group?

Quote from: Declan on April 28, 2011, 03:20:10 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0428/breaking26.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0428/breaking26.html)

Some losses
It's time Sean stopped trying to defend the indefensible, it looks like QIL wasn't quite the cash cow he claims it was.
I'd like to see just what the cause of the losses was in 2009 and 2010, but it seems to me that the administrators have substantially more credibility than Sean Quinn at this stage.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 28, 2011, 11:00:49 PM
I'd be interested in hearing about the losses as well and where it came from. Not saying their not true but I'd like to see a break down of it.

It's personal debt and they could lose everything including the house.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cde on April 28, 2011, 11:05:46 PM
If the Quinn employees around the border want to keep their jobs they would want to start working and stop protesting. It wont take much for the new owners to close the whole plant down and move the jobs to Dublin, they would probably love to have an excuse.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 29, 2011, 12:46:49 AM
Most think that'll happen anyway so wat have they to lose.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on April 29, 2011, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 28, 2011, 09:29:36 PM
Quote from: hsthompson on April 28, 2011, 03:02:03 PM
I only have a vague grasp of what's been going on with this fiasco. Would someone give me a brief enough synopsis of what has happened Quinn's empire and what is next for the man himself. I heard this debt is personal debt, surely he won't have to sell the house and everything and end up in a council estate in Enniskillen on the dole?
The rumour was that all the kids got €50M a few years ago - hopefully it was cash and not shares in the group?

????

Why would that be hopefully? Why should we be cheering on the looting of an insolvent company where all the holes have to be plugged by those who had nothing to do with it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cosmo Kramer on April 29, 2011, 11:18:38 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on April 29, 2011, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 28, 2011, 09:29:36 PM
Quote from: hsthompson on April 28, 2011, 03:02:03 PM
I only have a vague grasp of what's been going on with this fiasco. Would someone give me a brief enough synopsis of what has happened Quinn's empire and what is next for the man himself. I heard this debt is personal debt, surely he won't have to sell the house and everything and end up in a council estate in Enniskillen on the dole?
The rumour was that all the kids got €50M a few years ago - hopefully it was cash and not shares in the group?

????

Why would that be hopefully? Why should we be cheering on the looting of an insolvent company where all the holes have to be plugged by those who had nothing to do with it?

Exactly, hopefully it was shares in the group. Why should the taxpayer pay for them to have lifelong wealth?

They won't take his house off him regardless of what happens so no chance of him ending up in a council estate.

Out of interest, do the Quinn supporters here realise that he has no support whatsoever outside the border areas? Because of this their protests are unlikely to gain any sympathy from those in control of the situation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on April 30, 2011, 12:34:01 AM
Sean Quinn seems to be in complete denial about the situation.

If the administrators are only there since last March how can losses from 2009 be their fault?

Also why are accounts for 2009 and 2010 only coming out now?

The insurance business deteriorating seems to be linked to the losses which became apparent in 2008.

It is understandable people are loyal to Sean Quinn but a combination of greed, arrogance and lack of regulation have brought the situation to this point.

Quinn Group should have followed the path of Kerry Group and floated the company and went for steady growth year on year instead of shooting for the stars.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal on April 30, 2011, 12:39:02 AM
massive fire on the mountain in ballyconnell behind his cement factory for the second time in 7 days.not sure if its part of a protest or anything but if it is its getting way out of hand.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2011, 01:18:32 AM
Quote from: Dougal on April 30, 2011, 12:39:02 AM
massive fire on the mountain in ballyconnell behind his cement factory for the second time in 7 days.not sure if its part of a protest or anything but if it is its getting way out of hand.

hardly coincidence.

not good.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2011, 01:19:39 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on April 30, 2011, 12:34:01 AM
Sean Quinn seems to be in complete denial about the situation.

If the administrators are only there since last March how can losses from 2009 be their fault?

Also why are accounts for 2009 and 2010 only coming out now?

The insurance business deteriorating seems to be linked to the losses which became apparent in 2008.

It is understandable people are loyal to Sean Quinn but a combination of greed, arrogance and lack of regulation have brought the situation to this point.

Quinn Group should have followed the path of Kerry Group and floated the company and went for steady growth year on year instead of shooting for the stars.
[/b]

good advice.


But like a lot of sad stories, easy to say this after the event, but a good point nonetheless.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2011, 08:23:59 AM
Quinn family to seek damages from Anglo for losing business
Related
Anglo may recover less than half of €2.8bn owed by Quinn, says Dukes | 30/04/2011
Taoiseach rejects workers' calls for reinstatement of Seán Quinn | 30/04/2011
In this section »
Growth in economy for 2011 cut by half in latest forecast
Royal marriage sealed with two kisses to crowd's approval
CIARÁN HANCOCK and SIMON CARSWELL

THE FAMILY of Seán Quinn are preparing to take legal action against Anglo Irish Bank seeking damages relating to events over the past two years that led to them losing control of the Quinn group of businesses earlier this month.

It is understood Mr Quinn's children are planning to issue High Court proceedings in the coming days. The children – Seán jnr, Brenda, Aoife, Colette and Ciara - are equal shareholders in Quinn Group (ROI), the parent company for the various manufacturing, financial services and leisure businesses that were owned by the family but are now set to be taken over by Anglo and the lenders to the group.

As such, any action has to be taken in their names. All of the Quinn children with the exception of Ciara work in businesses in the group.

The bank appointed a receiver over the company's shares in Quinn Group (ROI) earlier this month, taking control of the business with banks and bondholders, who are owed €1.28 billion by the group.

Mr Quinn is not involved in the action directly as he was not a shareholder in the business when it ran into difficulty with Anglo and the Financial Regulator. The family would not comment yesterday.

The action is expected to be taken in the Commercial Court in Dublin, which fast-tracks legal actions involving major business disputes.

The case is to look at the validity of Anglo's decision to lend the family €2.3 billion to buy shares in the bank, which is owned by the State. The family owe Anglo €2.88 billion.

The action will also focus on the legality of the share charges dating back to 2008, which have been used by Anglo's new management team to effectively take control of the Quinn business empire. The bank was given a charge over the ownership of the group to cover losses on Mr Quinn's investment in Anglo arising from the bank's collapsing share price during the financial crisis of 2008.

Further legal proceedings under consideration by the family include a possible challenge to the validity of the regulator's decision in March 2010 to seek the appointment of joint administrators to Quinn Insurance Ltd (QIL). It is not clear if the Quinn children will also take an action against the Financial Regulator-Central Bank, but this is being considered by the family's legal team.

The family may seek to injunct the sale of QIL to Liberty Mutual and Anglo, which was signed on Thursday. Mr Quinn has previously warned the family would not be able to repay Anglo without the insurer.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2011, 08:39:21 AM
Quote from: Cosmo Kramer on April 29, 2011, 11:18:38 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on April 29, 2011, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on April 28, 2011, 09:29:36 PM
Quote from: hsthompson on April 28, 2011, 03:02:03 PM
I only have a vague grasp of what's been going on with this fiasco. Would someone give me a brief enough synopsis of what has happened Quinn's empire and what is next for the man himself. I heard this debt is personal debt, surely he won't have to sell the house and everything and end up in a council estate in Enniskillen on the dole?
The rumour was that all the kids got €50M a few years ago - hopefully it was cash and not shares in the group?

????

Why would that be hopefully? Why should we be cheering on the looting of an insolvent company where all the holes have to be plugged by those who had nothing to do with it?

Exactly, hopefully it was shares in the group. Why should the taxpayer pay for them to have lifelong wealth?

They won't take his house off him regardless of what happens so no chance of him ending up in a council estate.

Out of interest, do the Quinn supporters here realise that he has no support whatsoever outside the border areas? Because of this their protests are unlikely to gain any sympathy from those in control of the situation.

there's every chance he could lose the house. At the minute he's been told he has it for 5 years then their taking it of him. The only way that won't happen is if Anglo agree a settlement with him.
Of course the Quinn supporters know that the majority of the support is from the border area. Hardly suprising considering that's the area that will be affected by the changes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 30, 2011, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 30, 2011, 08:23:59 AM
Quinn family to seek damages from Anglo for losing business
Related
Anglo may recover less than half of €2.8bn owed by Quinn, says Dukes | 30/04/2011
Taoiseach rejects workers' calls for reinstatement of Seán Quinn | 30/04/2011
In this section »
Growth in economy for 2011 cut by half in latest forecast
Royal marriage sealed with two kisses to crowd's approval
CIARÁN HANCOCK and SIMON CARSWELL

THE FAMILY of Seán Quinn are preparing to take legal action against Anglo Irish Bank seeking damages relating to events over the past two years that led to them losing control of the Quinn group of businesses earlier this month.

It is understood Mr Quinn's children are planning to issue High Court proceedings in the coming days. The children – Seán jnr, Brenda, Aoife, Colette and Ciara - are equal shareholders in Quinn Group (ROI), the parent company for the various manufacturing, financial services and leisure businesses that were owned by the family but are now set to be taken over by Anglo and the lenders to the group.

As such, any action has to be taken in their names. All of the Quinn children with the exception of Ciara work in businesses in the group.

The bank appointed a receiver over the company's shares in Quinn Group (ROI) earlier this month, taking control of the business with banks and bondholders, who are owed €1.28 billion by the group.

Mr Quinn is not involved in the action directly as he was not a shareholder in the business when it ran into difficulty with Anglo and the Financial Regulator. The family would not comment yesterday.

The action is expected to be taken in the Commercial Court in Dublin, which fast-tracks legal actions involving major business disputes.

The case is to look at the validity of Anglo's decision to lend the family €2.3 billion to buy shares in the bank, which is owned by the State. The family owe Anglo €2.88 billion.

The action will also focus on the legality of the share charges dating back to 2008, which have been used by Anglo's new management team to effectively take control of the Quinn business empire. The bank was given a charge over the ownership of the group to cover losses on Mr Quinn's investment in Anglo arising from the bank's collapsing share price during the financial crisis of 2008.

Further legal proceedings under consideration by the family include a possible challenge to the validity of the regulator's decision in March 2010 to seek the appointment of joint administrators to Quinn Insurance Ltd (QIL). It is not clear if the Quinn children will also take an action against the Financial Regulator-Central Bank, but this is being considered by the family's legal team.

The family may seek to injunct the sale of QIL to Liberty Mutual and Anglo, which was signed on Thursday. Mr Quinn has previously warned the family would not be able to repay Anglo without the insurer.


If the Quinns win on those grounds (didn't Mansfield try something similar?) the country will collapse immediately, therefore it won't happen.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on May 04, 2011, 10:03:55 AM
The Irish Times - Monday, May 2, 2011Insurance fund used to grease wheels of Quinn restructuring
John McManus
Business Editor

NOTHING THAT has surfaced over the last year has done anything to undermine the case for calling time on Seán Quinn’s buccaneering stewardship of Quinn Insurance. The opposite, really.

But that is not the same thing as saying that what happened subsequently was perfect and the outcome that emerged last Thursday was the optimal one.

Anything that results in a claim of €700 million on the Insurance Compensation Fund is a disaster, even in a country more used to counting the costs of its financial failures in billions rather than millions. It’s even more of a disaster when the administrators running the company were telling the High Court last October that no such claim would be made.

Several questions remain unanswered. One is whether the blame for the need to claim now on the fund can be laid directly and entirely at the feet of Seán Quinn. His risk-taking may have put the company on the road to perdition, but did the actions of the administrators once they took over exacerbate things? Quinn himself has queried their provisioning policy. Further light may be shed on this when the company’s full 2009 accounts are published.

Quinn has also raised the issue of whether the claim on the fund arises in part as a result of the horse-trading that took place in order to secure a wider restructuring of Quinn Group, which owes €2.3 billion to Anglo Irish Bank and €1.3 billion to various other banks and bond holders. He was ousted in the process.

Bear in mind here that a levy on other insurance companies – which will be passed on to their customers – does not constitute State aid in the narrow sense.

What is clear is that the bond holders were the king-makers in the Quinn Group restructuring. They have emerged from the mess without having to take any sort of a write-down on their debts.

They also appear to have got improved security over the other Quinn Group assets, and some cash.

The reason they had the whip hand is that they held guarantees over Quinn Insurance’s subsidiaries and the individual manufacturing business. Unless they were prepared to give up these guarantees, then the Government and Anglo Irish Bank’s complicated plan to take control of the business and break it up would be pretty unworkable. Anglo’s hold over the Quinn Group was far weaker than the bond holders’ as it only held the family’s shares in the ultimate parent as security.

The price of the bond holders’ releasing the guarantees was a €200 million payment, some of which will be recycled back into the group.

About €80 million will be made available to the manufacturing group by the banks as a working capital facility, but the remaining €120 million will be directly into the bank and bond holders’ pockets.

The money came from Quinn Insurance in a bit of intragroup financial engineering that Seán Quinn himself would have been proud of.

But the key point is that the assets of the insurance company are reduced by €200 million to the benefit of the bond holders and thus not available to meet its losses. As a result, the claim on the fund will be €200 million greater than it otherwise needs to be, and the whole thing can be seen as an indirect subsidy by other insurers and policy-holders.

One suspects that when the penny drops in this regard with the other insurance companies, who will be levied to meet the demands on the fund – current value €30 million – there may be some unhappiness.

The planned transaction presumably has the approval of the Financial Regulator, who oversees the fund, and again one has to presume he has taken the wider, long-term view. Anglo is also his problem.

It’s worth noting that nobody is calling it a good deal. “It is the best outcome for the Irish economy,” is all the joint administrators could manage.

They claim the compensation fund could have been hit for €1 billion if no sale had been achieved and the fund would have had to meet all the company’s liabilities.

They were also at pains to point out that the jobs of 1,570 people – and the €100 million plus what the company’s activities are worth to the regions in which it operates – have been safeguarded.

The other “win” for the taxpayer is that the wider deal gives Anglo Irish Bank a direct economic interest in the Quinn Group, owning 75 per cent of the remaining business and 43 per cent of the new insurance business. The income from these assets – and their sale – over time may cover the €2.8 billion that Seán Quinn and his family owe the bank, most of which has been written off.

Like most things involving Ireland and its financial institutions, one is left wishing – to paraphrase Bill Clinton’s adviser James Carville – one could be born again as a bond holder.

SO THE GOVERNMENT HAVE TAKEN MONEY FROM QUINN INSURANCE AND PUT IT IN THE QUINN GROUP THATS WHAT THEY PUT QUINN INSURANCE INTO ADMINSTRATION FOR. WHAT A JOKE
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on May 04, 2011, 11:05:11 AM
Key Quto "The money came from Quinn Insurance in a bit of intragroup financial engineering that Seán Quinn himself would have been proud of."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 17, 2011, 06:12:57 PM
Seán Quinn and his family are preparing legal proceedings over their loss of control of the Quinn Group.

It is understood the action would be against the Financial Regulator and Anglo Irish Bank.
Last month the bank appointed a share receiver to the Quinn Group and Quinn Insurance has been sold to the bank and US group Liberty Mutual.
At the time, Anglo Irish Bank Chief Executive Mike Aynsley said the bank was owed an enormous amount of money by the Quinns, which they were not in a position to repay.
Mr Aynsley said the bank had taken an approach which protected the businesses and paved the way for maximising the repayment of debt to the taxpayer over time.


I gather proceedings were issued on three cases against Anglo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 17, 2011, 08:28:58 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 17, 2011, 06:12:57 PM
Seán Quinn and his family are preparing legal proceedings over their loss of control of the Quinn Group.

It is understood the action would be against the Financial Regulator and Anglo Irish Bank.
Last month the bank appointed a share receiver to the Quinn Group and Quinn Insurance has been sold to the bank and US group Liberty Mutual.
At the time, Anglo Irish Bank Chief Executive Mike Aynsley said the bank was owed an enormous amount of money by the Quinns, which they were not in a position to repay.
Mr Aynsley said the bank had taken an approach which protected the businesses and paved the way for maximising the repayment of debt to the taxpayer over time.


I gather proceedings were issued on three cases against Anglo.

I suppose they had to do something - doing nothing was not an option.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 18, 2011, 10:47:36 PM
From the Irish times.
The wife and five children of businessman Sean Quinn have lodged a High Court action seeking damages against Anglo Irish Bank over alleged negligence, breach of duty and intentional and/or negligent infliction of economic damage.

The damages claim arises from events of the past two years that led to the family losing control of the Quinn group of businesses and is believed to amount to a claim for hundreds of million euro.

In proceedings against Anglo and receiver Kieran Wallace, the family are seeking to overturn the appointment of Mr Wallace by Anglo as receiver over shares held by them in the Quinn Group and various related companies.

They claim that charges made in favour of Anglo from late 2003 up to 2009 over shares held in Quinn Group (ROI) Ltd, Quinn Quarries Ltd, Slieve Russell Hotel Ltd, Quinn Finance Holding, Quinn Group Hotels Ltd and Quinn Group Prperties Ltd are invalid, uneforceable and of no legal effect.

The appointment of Mr Wallace on April 14th last as receiver over those shareholdings on foot of the disputed charges is also invalid and unenforceable, the family claim. They want orders restraining him acting as receiver and setting aside his appointment.

They also want declarations that undated guarantees provided by them to Anglo over the liabilities of several Cyprus-registered companies are invalid and unenforceable. Those companies are Lud Investments Ltd, Moshaid Investments Ltd, Opawa Investments Ltd, Pahu Ltd, Tarate Enterprises Ltd and Morboneto Holdings Ltd, all with registered offices at Capital Centre, Nicosia.

The proceedings by Patricia Quinn and her children - Sean jnr, Brenda, Aoife, Colette and Ciara - were lodged in the High Court this week and it is expected an application will be made within weeks to have the case fast-tracked by the Commercial Court. The family are being represented by Brian O'Moore SC, Bill Shipsey SC and Rossa Fanning BL.

The five children are equal shareholders in Quinn Group (ROI), the parent company for the various manufacturing, financial services and leisure businesses that were owned by the family. All of the children except Ciara work in businesses in the group.

Anglo appointed a receiver over the company's shares in Quinn Group (ROI) last month, taking control of the business with banks and bondholders, who are owed €1.28 billion by the group. The Quinn family owe Anglo €2.88 billion.

Further legal proceedings are under consideration by the family include a possible challenge to the validity of the regulator's decision in March 2010 to seek the appointment of joint administrators to Quinn Insurance Ltd (QIL).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2011, 10:09:38 PM
Couple of things to hit the paper tomorrow with regards to this. Firstly Anglo are to "report" huge losses for Quinn Group for 2010. Be interesting to see where these losses occurred and how much was down to the 30-40m paid to McKillop and the likes.

But in bigger news (but I have no doubt that it will hardly get a mention in the News tomorrow) the first case between Anglo and Quinn was heard in Sweden today. Anglo were trying to bulldoze in on  some foreign properties without the proper paperwork by calling for liquidation of the Quinn companies over there. Anglo were thrown out and control awarded back to Quinn. Not sure of the values of these but you'd be chatting 10's millions anyway.
Anglos ability to drop the ball never fails to astound me. No doubt Anglo will begin to sweat a little now considering the cases lodged by Quinn over here are mostly on the same basis. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: 118cmal on May 26, 2011, 10:29:19 PM
In slightly related news, the Cavan Crystal hotel has also gone into receivership.  This will also be announced tomorrow.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2011, 10:41:25 PM
Quote from: 118cmal on May 26, 2011, 10:29:19 PM
In slightly related news, the Cavan Crystal hotel has also gone into receivership.  This will also be announced tomorrow.

How did you get wind of that one mal?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: 118cmal on May 26, 2011, 10:46:47 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on May 26, 2011, 10:41:25 PM
Quote from: 118cmal on May 26, 2011, 10:29:19 PM
In slightly related news, the Cavan Crystal hotel has also gone into receivership.  This will also be announced tomorrow.

How did you get wind of that one mal?

They rang anyone who had booked their wedding there today and told them it was business as usual but that there was going to be this announcement tomorrow.  That's the Russel, Lough Erne and now the Crystal  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2011, 10:51:25 PM
Any good cheap wedding deals going on at the minute then??

Heard that the other day alright, got some friends getting married next year but they were telling me it was all hush hush. I think it's a north Monaghan family who own it. Nice little hotel, lacking the grounds around it though.

Sad news with the way things are going for all these well renowned establishments.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: 118cmal on May 26, 2011, 10:53:27 PM
No idea Sammy.  Yeah very sad indeed.  I've been at a few weddings in the Crystal and I couldn't fault them.  As you say there is very little ground around it but the food and service was excellent.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2011, 08:17:33 AM
Well I was right enough. So far no mention of the court case just the reported losses from Anglo. I see these come from the alreadly reported losses from QIL and write down of assets. I'll take them with a ounce or two of salt especially considering that  QG managed to keep gross profit margins in the manufactoring area to 27 % at a time when alot of others were falling on their face. But no doubt they'll make sure that everyone focuses on the alledged losses!!

Quinn Group to post loss of €880m
In this section »

SIMON CARSWELL, Finance Correspondent

QUINN GROUP, the business founded by Seán Quinn, will report an operating loss of about €880 million when the conglomerate's long-awaited financial results for 2009 – its last year fully under the control of Mr Quinn – are published today.

The group wrote down assets by about €274 million and absorbed a loss of €644 million at its Quinn Insurance subsidiary. The value of properties in the group and some of its industrial plants, including the plastics factory in Mainz, Germany, were written down substantially.

The group – which is involved in cement, building materials and glass-manufacturing – had net liabilities of €192 million at the end of 2009 after taking provisions for related party loans of €951 million.

In a separate development Mr Quinn's family will apply to have their legal action against State-owned Anglo Irish Bank entered into the fast-tracked Commercial Court list at a hearing on Monday.

Anglo, which intends to vigorously defend the action, is not expected to oppose the move.

Mr Quinn's wife and five adult children – the shareholders of the Quinn Group – are seeking hundreds of millions of euro in damages over Anglo's decision to take control of the group last month.

Anglo seized ownership of the group appointing receiver Kieran Wallace of KPMG over the family's shares in Quinn Group (ROI), the firm at the top of the group.

The bank has installed its own directors and management to lead the business, freezing Mr Quinn out of the running of the group.

The figures to be published today will show that the group's manufacturing turnover fell 28 per cent in 2009, reflecting the collapse in the construction sector. Heavy cost-cutting kept gross profit margins at 27 per cent.

Overall turnover at the group including Quinn Insurance, fell to €1.6 billion in 2009 from €2.3 billion a year earlier when the group made a profit of €83 million.

The turnover within the manufacturing business – which will form the core part of the group following the sale of Quinn Insurance – was €654 million in 2009 and €658 million last year, according to draft accounts for 2010. Turnover within this business remained broadly in line last year with the 2009 performance.

The group's overall turnover fell to €939 million in 2010 as only the first quarter turnover of €281 million at Quinn Insurance was included in the 2010 figures.

Joint administrators were appointed to the insurer on March 31st, 2010, amid the Central Bank's concerns about its solvency. Losses at the insurer will lead to a call of €600 million on the State's Insurance Compensation Fund to be recouped by a levy on all non-life insurance policies.

The filing of the group's 2009 results was delayed for more than a year due to the delay in the sign-off of Quinn Insurance's 2009 financial statements by auditors PricewaterhouseCoopers as a result of the administration.

The 2010 financial statements are expected to be finalised within the next three to four months.

The administrators agreed to sell Quinn Insurance to State-owned Anglo Irish Bank and US insurer Liberty Mutual last month.

Earnings before interest, tax and write-offs of depreciation costs and amortisation (Ebitda) – a measure of cash generated – totalled €104 million in the manufacturing business for 2009.

Under last month's restructuring, Anglo is taking 75 per cent ownership of the group, with the banks and bondholders taking the remaining 25 per cent.



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Kerry Mike on May 27, 2011, 09:22:38 AM
QuoteThey rang anyone who had booked their wedding there today and told them it was business as usual but that there was going to be this announcement tomorrow.  That's the Russel, Lough Erne and now the Crystal 

Got the same call yesterday from the Cavan Crystal, we have them booked for next year, will have to wait and see how it pans out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on May 27, 2011, 09:31:31 AM
Any of ye hear the rumour about Quinn starting out afresh in the Insurance business again..........ive heard a new company is being setup in Belturbet, "Q2", and alot of the old directors\managers are onboard........
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 27, 2011, 10:01:05 AM
Quote from: FarneyMan on May 27, 2011, 09:31:31 AM
Any of ye hear the rumour about Quinn starting out afresh in the Insurance business again..........ive heard a new company is being setup in Belturbet, "Q2", and alot of the old directors\managers are onboard........

Couldn't see it, given the amount of mone required to start again.


But given the hikes in premium, it would be a welcome move.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on May 27, 2011, 10:03:43 AM

Quinn reveals 'hugely disappointing' losses of €852m
Friday, May 27, 2011 - 09:14 AM



The Quinn group lost €852m in 2009, the company announced this morning.

The losses mainly relate to Quinn Insurance Limited (QIL), which is under administration, and which incurred operating losses of €644m during 2009.

Turnover at QGL (including QIL) amounted to €1.6bn in 2009, down from €2.2bn in 2008.

The chief executive of QGL Paul O'Brien described the numbers as "hugely disappointing".

Net assets for the group's continuing manufacturing operations were €149m in 2009, compared to €392m the previous year.

"Following the appointment of administrators to the QIL business in March 2010, the insurance business is no longer part of our continuing operations.

"I would like to wish the new owners of QIL every success in their efforts to restore the business to full strength and thereby protect the jobs in that business.

"The future of our group now lies in our manufacturing businesses, which are involved in container glass, construction products, plastics & packaging and radiators across a number of jurisdictions."


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/quinn-reveals-hugely-disappointing-losses-of-852m-506633.html#ixzz1NXecOXDA
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on May 27, 2011, 11:56:36 AM
Quote from: 118cmal on May 26, 2011, 10:53:27 PM
No idea Sammy.  Yeah very sad indeed.  I've been at a few weddings in the Crystal and I couldn't fault them.  As you say there is very little ground around it but the food and service was excellent.
Whats the problem, it the hotels are sucessful and well run they will sold off as a going concern? Would they not be better off having the badge of failure associated with Quinn?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2011, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: ludermor on May 27, 2011, 11:56:36 AM
Quote from: 118cmal on May 26, 2011, 10:53:27 PM
No idea Sammy.  Yeah very sad indeed.  I've been at a few weddings in the Crystal and I couldn't fault them.  As you say there is very little ground around it but the food and service was excellent.
Whats the problem, it the hotels are sucessful and well run they will sold off as a going concern? Would they not be better off having the badge of failure associated with Quinn?

These aren't Quinn Hotels Ludermor. Crystal and Lough Erne are stand alone hotels in the area. I think the people are just pointing out how things are getting tougher in that border area these days.

Quote from: FarneyMan on May 27, 2011, 09:31:31 AM
Any of ye hear the rumour about Quinn starting out afresh in the Insurance business again..........ive heard a new company is being setup in Belturbet, "Q2", and alot of the old directors\managers are onboard........

:D

This seems to be the worst kept secret in history.

:-X
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on May 27, 2011, 04:26:29 PM
Apologies 2+2=5!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2011, 04:39:56 PM
No worries. Easy assumption to make given the thread title!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 30, 2011, 07:46:06 PM
From the Times


The family of businessman Seán Quinn have brought Commercial Court proceedings claiming that loans of about €2.34 billion made by Anglo Irish Bank to various Quinn companies and Cypriot-registered companies are unenforceable because they were issued for "an illegal objective of market manipulation" — support of the Anglo share price.

The action by Mrs Patricia Quinn and her five children — Aoife, Colette, Brenda, Ciara and Seán Quinn Jnr — arises from events of the past two years that led to the family losing control of companies in the Quinn group.

Mr Justcie Peter Kelly transferred the case yesterday to the Commercial Court. It involves the largest ever claim in the court's seven year history and is likely to be heard early next year.

Aoife Quinn said in an affidavit the plaintiffs signed personal guarantees in late 2008 over certain loans by Anglo to Cypriot-registered companies owned by the family without being told of the "precarious" financial position of Anglo. They had no independent legal or financial advice and the nature of the loan documents was never discussed with them, she said.

The lending by Anglo to various Quinn companies and to the Cypriot companies, whether directly or via other companies held by members of the Quinn family, "was in support of an illegal objective of market manipulation" prohibited by the relevant EU Directive on Market Abuse, she said.

The lending was "tainted with illegality, or was intended to support an illegal purpose, such that the said loans are not enforceable".

On those and other grounds, the family claim Anglo was not entitled last month to appoint Kieran Wallace as receiver over shares in several Quinn group companies. They also claim the bank cannot pursue them under the guarantees for repayment of the loans to the Cypriot companies.

They also claim they are entitled to hundreds of million Euro in damages as a result of the actions of the bank. They allege negligence, breach of duty and intentional and/or negligent infliction of economic damage.

While unable at this point to give the precise value of the damages claim, Aoife Quinn said the consolidated gross sales of Quinn Group (ROI) Ltd was €2.116 billion in the period to December 31st 2007, with profits of €453 million, and the business was "a substantial going concern".

The net assets of that company was reported in its statutory accounts at some €753 million in December 2007, she added.

Yesterday, Mr Justice Kelly was told Anglo was consenting to the family's action being fast-tracked in the Commercial Court.

The judge noted none of the guarantees provided for the Anglo loans were dated while copy documents of two personal guarantees in the names of Aoife Quinn and Seán Quinn Jnr over certain loans by Anglo to companies registered in Cyprus were unsigned.

When he asked Paul Gallagher SC, for Anglo, whether the original guarantee documents were signed, Mr Gallagher said he understood the documents were in order but he would make inquiries. Counsel added his side would consider whether to join Seán Quinn himself and others as third parties to the action.

The judge observed the case is likely to last several weeks and made directions for the exchange of legal documents with a view to having the case heard early next year.

In seeking transfer, Brian O'Moore SC, for the Quinns, said his side were contending various loans by Anglo to a number of Quinn companies and the Cypriot companies involved an unlawful support of the Anglo share price.

In her affidavit, Aoife Quinn said the action was brought in the plaintiffs' capacity as owners of shares in several companies, including Slieve Russell Hotel Ltd, Quinn Quarries Ltd, Quinn Group (ROI) Ltd, Quinn Group Hotels Ltd, Quinn Finance Holding and Quinn Group Properties Ltd.

The family was claiming charges made in favour of Anglo from late 2003 up to 2009 over shares held in those Quinn companies were invalid, unenforceable and of no legal effect.

They also wanted declarations that the undated guarantees provided by them to Anglo over the liabilities of several Cyprus-registered companies were invalid and unenforceable. Those companies are Lud Investments Ltd, Moshaid Investments Ltd, Opawa Investments Ltd, Pahu Ltd, Tarate Enterprises Ltd and Morboneto Holdings Ltd, all with registered offices at Capital Centre, Nicosia.

Outlining the background, Ms Quinn said Bazzely Consultadori Economica E Particpacoes, a Madeira-incporporated company owned by the Quinn children, made investments of some €750m from Quinn resources to fund CFD (contracts for difference) positions in Anglo prior to the end of 2007.

After September 2007, as Anglo's share price declined, it advanced some €2.34 billion to various Quinn companies, she said. Those advances were made in the full knowledge they were only to be used to support "CFD positions" in relation to Anglo shares and those shares were ultimately held by the children.

On October 7th 2008, about €77.17 million loans were granted to each of five Cypriot registered companies owned by the Quinn children while Eu102 million loans were made to another Cypriot company owned by Mrs Patricia Quinn, Aoife Quinn said. Those loans were then used by the Cypriot companies to buy shares in Anglo.

Ms Quinn said personal guarantees were executed about October 2008 related to those loans. She said the plaintiffs, when they were asked to sign the execution blocks to the personal guarantees, did not know and were not made aware the guarantees were "a purported condition" of the advance of the loans.

The personal guarantees and share pledges were "manifestly improvident" and/or "unconscionable" when executed because they were entered into in the context of borrowing to support Anglo's share price in circumstances where Anglo, its servants or agents, knew of the "precarious financial position" of Anglo but the plaintiffs did not, she said.

There was a significant lack of autonomy on the part of the Quinn plaintiffs in the circumstances surrounding the signing of the guarantees and share pledges, she said. In all the circumstances, Anglo was not entitled to appoint Mr Wallace as share receiver.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 02, 2011, 05:01:28 PM
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/this-is-still-quinn-country-a-year-after-local-hero-got-the-boot-2663788.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 02, 2011, 05:15:50 PM
The first article that actually mentions the court case in Sweden between Anglo and Quinn. I wonder why none of the rest of the papers mentioned much about it considering the impact it could have on Anglo and therefore the state!!

[Quinn family claim Anglo loaned money for illegal objective
Print |  Email
Swedish court rules in favour of Quinn

Sean Quinn.
Loans of about €2.34 billion by Anglo Irish Bank to Quinn companies are unenforceable as they were issued for the "illegal objective of market manipulation" to support of the Anglo share price, claimed the Quinn family in proceedings which were this week transferred to the Commercial Court.
The action in Ireland comes after Quinn and his family won a court decision in Sweden last week, in which the dismissal of directors of Quinn Investments Sweden (QIS) by a receiver appointed by Anglo Irish Bank was overturned. The Stockholm District Court found that the dismissal of QIS directors and their replacement with Kieran Wallace of KPMG was not "duly approved by all shareholders" and was therefore invalid.
This week's action in the Irish courts by Mrs Patricia Quinn and her five children - Aoife, Colette, Brenda, Ciara and Sean Quinn Jnr - arises from events of the past two years that led to the family losing control of companies in the Quinn group.
Mr Justice Peter Kelly transferred the case on Monday to the Commercial Court. Aoife Quinn said in an affidavit the plaintiffs signed personal guarantees in late 2008 over certain loans by Anglo to Cypriot-registered companies owned by the family without being told of the "precarious" financial position of Anglo. They had no independent legal or financial advice and the nature of the loan documents was never discussed with them, she said.
The lending by Anglo to various Quinn companies and to the Cypriot companies, whether directly or via other companies held by members of the Quinn family, "was in support of an illegal objective of market manipulation" prohibited by the relevant EU Directive on Market Abuse, she said.
The lending was "tainted with illegality, or was intended to support an illegal purpose, such that the said loans are not enforceable".
On those and other grounds, the family claim Anglo was not entitled last month to appoint Kieran Wallace as receiver over shares in several Quinn group companies. They also claim the bank cannot pursue them under the guarantees for repayment of the loans to the Cypriot companies.
They further claim they are entitled to hundreds of million Euro in damages as a result of the actions of the bank. They allege negligence, breach of duty and intentional and/or negligent infliction of economic damage.
While unable at this point to give the precise value of the damages claim, Aoife Quinn said the consolidated gross sales of Quinn Group (ROI) Ltd was €2.116 billion in the period to December 31, 2007, with profits of €453 million, and the business was "a substantial going concern".
The net assets of that company was reported in its statutory accounts at some €753 million in December 2007, she added.
Yesterday, Mr Justice Kelly was told Anglo was consenting to the family's action being fast-tracked in the Commercial Court.
The judge noted none of the guarantees provided for the Anglo loans were dated while copy documents of two personal guarantees in the names of Aoife Quinn and Sean Quinn Jnr over certain loans by Anglo to companies registered in Cyprus were unsigned.
When he asked Paul Gallagher SC, for Anglo, whether the original guarantee documents were signed, Mr Gallagher said he understood the documents were in order but he would make inquiries. Counsel added his side would consider whether to join Sean Quinn himself and others as third parties to the action.
In seeking transfer, Brian O'Moore SC, for the Quinns, said his side were contending various loans by Anglo to a number of Quinn companies and the Cypriot companies involved an unlawful support of the Anglo share price.
In her affidavit, Aoife Quinn said the action was brought in the plaintiffs' capacity as owners of shares in several companies, including Slieve Russell Hotel Ltd, Quinn Quarries Ltd, Quinn Group (ROI) Ltd, Quinn Group Hotels Ltd, Quinn Finance Holding and Quinn Group Properties Ltd.
The family was claiming charges made in favour of Anglo from late 2003 up to 2009 over shares held in those Quinn companies were invalid, unenforceable and of no legal effect.
They also wanted declarations that the undated guarantees provided by them to Anglo over the liabilities of several Cyprus-registered companies were invalid and unenforceable. Those companies are Lud Investments Ltd, Moshaid Investments Ltd, Opawa Investments Ltd, Pahu Ltd, Tarate Enterprises Ltd and Morboneto Holdings Ltd, all with registered offices at Capital Centre, Nicosia./sup]
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on June 03, 2011, 12:16:20 AM
Quote from: FarneyMan on May 27, 2011, 09:31:31 AM
Any of ye hear the rumour about Quinn starting out afresh in the Insurance business again..........ive heard a new company is being setup in Belturbet, "Q2", and alot of the old directors\managers are onboard........
Had heard this as well. Some of the directors have been spotted around vacant offices in Belturbet. Supposedly Elliotts have an insurance licence that they are going to use.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 18, 2011, 04:36:08 PM
Things still going strong with the court cases over in Sweden.

Anglo not getting it all their own way from the sound of it!

From the times.
ANGLO IRISH Bank is entitled to just €129 million from a property company in Sweden controlled by Seán Quinn's family, lawyers for the family argued yesterday.

Anglo wants a bankruptcy receiver appointed to Quinn Investments Sweden, the holding company for the family's international properties in Sweden, Britain, Russia, Turkey, Ukraine and India.

The receiver would have the power to liquidate the company, a major entity in the Quinn Group, and sell its properties. Together they are estimated to be worth about €500 million.

Anglo however is only entitled to claim the amount of the loans provided specifically to Quinn Investments from the Anglo funds – about €129 million, lawyers for Quinn Investments told the Stockholm district court.

Although Anglo's guarantee on the loans included all Quinn companies, under Swedish law, firms could only guarantee loans they gained from in principal, they said.

In a sale process that could take as little as three months, Quinn Investments Sweden could raise €344 million through the sale of properties in Russia, more than enough to cover the amount it owed Anglo, lawyers for Quinn Investments said.

For that reason, they argued, the company could not be declared insolvent and since the €129 million was properly secured, the bank could not seek a liquidation.

Richard Woodhouse, the Anglo executive in charge of negotiating the loan repayment with the Quinn family, offered a lower estimate for the value of Quinn Investments assets at between US$380 and $400 million and said a sale process would take "considerable time". "In my view, liquidation of satisfactory value would take 18 months to three years," he said in testimony. "It is possible to sell at an accelerated basis but at a lower value than I quote."

Lawyers for Quinn Investments will present an expert on Russian real estate to the court when the proceedings resume on Tuesday.

Mr Woodhouse added that the debts in question were "absolutely valid and overdue for payment".

The Quinn family owes Anglo almost €2.9 billion, of which €2.3 billion relates to loans that covered the losses on Anglo shares as a result of the 2008 financial crash. Lawyers for Quinn Investments say the loans must be proven valid before any amount can be claimed.

The Quinns claim the loans were advanced under the "false guise" of property lending when in reality they were used to cover losses on the family's investment in Anglo shares. Those investments were made through contracts for difference, a type of leveraged bet on the bank's share price.

Anglo contracts: how they worked 

FOR THE first time in open court, a Quinn executive yesterday outlined how the loans from Anglo to cover losses on stock market investments were obtained.

Former finance director Dara O'Reilly said the use of contracts for difference began in the autumn of 2005 and involved investments in financial services companies, oil companies and some airlines, including Ryanair.

By early 2007, worldwide equity markets were under pressure and the share price of Anglo deteriorated. At first, the losses or margin calls on Anglo investments were financed by Quinn resources.

However, when those resources became "extremely limited", the group began to cover the debts with loans from Anglo, a practice that became more frequent.

Mr O'Reilly would contact the manager at Anglo and give a "rough calculation" of how the margin call had been determined.

Documents were drawn up stating "property development " as the purpose of the loan and Mr O'Reilly would then obtain the necessary signatures so the funds could be transferred, he said.

"When I rang the bank on a very frequent basis in 2008, it was very clear it was for margin calls."


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 27, 2011, 11:49:35 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0627/anglo.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on August 10, 2011, 07:55:14 AM
This protest seems to be getting out of hand. Surely this is not employees, what would they think this was acheiving?

Could there be dissidents involved in this as part of some "anti-capitalist" campaign?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/quinn-chief-targeted-in-arson-attack-wont-be-intimidated-2844149.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 10, 2011, 08:28:26 AM
Just can't see what they think they will achieve with this? It's not going to help things in the long run and things are grim enough without all this happening.
That said I'd cry no tears for POB. He was one of the main men in organising the whole take over at a time when he was meant to be working for SQ. He did enough to ensure he would be sitting pretty at a time when most other in the company were still fighting to get a resolution to keep SQ involved. And trust me he's been well looked after by Anglo for "work done" during the take over that the cost of a new car won't make a dent in that.

It would be his family that I'd feel sorry for.

I see Anglo turned done an offer to purchase parts of the company there by a few Ex Directors including Liam McCaffery. They would have been as well to get rid of it as they're running it into the ground at the minute. Know ones who work in both the Cement and Raditors and they are saying it's like a morgue. People struggling to find work to do and sales hitting the floor. They seem to reckon that Anglo's hand will be forced as they can't allow it to continue the way it's going. They've already had to take a £40Million loan out to keep the companies afloat.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tommysmith on August 10, 2011, 10:29:56 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 10, 2011, 08:28:26 AM.

I see Anglo turned done an offer to purchase parts of the company there by a few Ex Directors including Liam McCaffery. They would have been as well to get rid of it as they're running it into the ground at the minute. Know ones who work in both the Cement and Raditors and they are saying it's like a morgue. People struggling to find work to do and sales hitting the floor. They seem to reckon that Anglo's hand will be forced as they can't allow it to continue the way it's going. They've already had to take a £40Million loan out to keep the companies afloat.

I have been told that they are going as well as they have ever been and thats from current workers.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on August 10, 2011, 01:53:41 PM
Jesus that must be tough for you!  My sincerest condolences.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on August 10, 2011, 02:10:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 10, 2011, 01:35:15 PM
Well my Fiance works in Raditors and sister in law works in the weighing bay in cement and both are dead. The only one holdings it's own is Glass.
The cement is really tailing of. Despite what Anglo are spouting some customers have stopped dealing with them altogether.
I think I said this before SS, but with the economy the way it is and especially the construction (or lack of) industry, how could these companies not be in bother regardless of ownership?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 10, 2011, 03:14:34 PM
I've nevered said that they wouldn't be struggling Regardless BB. Which is exactly why losing a couple of customers now is a bigger problem than if they were doing well.

  Very good Franco. :-))
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tommysmith on August 10, 2011, 03:16:56 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 10, 2011, 01:35:15 PM
Well my Fiance works in Raditors and sister in law works in the weighing bay in cement and both are dead. The only one holdings it's own is Glass.
The cement is really tailing of. Despite what Anglo are spouting some customers have stopped dealing with them altogether.

Oh i think it was the glass that the person i was talking to may have been on about.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on September 14, 2011, 11:56:52 AM
http://www.thejournal.ie/government-proposes-levy-on-insurance-policies-to-pay-for-quinn-bailout-226031-Sep2011/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/government-proposes-levy-on-insurance-policies-to-pay-for-quinn-bailout-226031-Sep2011/)

Nothing really new in this, but again I'd be interested to hear if those who would have been supporters of the Quinn Group still feel that none of this would have been necessary if the regulator had left everything alone?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 14, 2011, 06:15:09 PM
It wasn't necessary because the regulator had other options open to him rather than placing the company into administration, not least the option allowed to VHI to work their solvency (Which is alot worse that QDI's was) up towards the required rate of 150% ( a far higher rate than required in most EU countries). But the FR was ready to make a big name for himself and decided to take the nuclear option.

And something Irish tax payers should be more interested in is....

From the Irish Independent.

FRESH efforts are under way to restructure the Quinn Group's loans after "challenging" trading triggered fears that the conglomerate couldn't support its €700m debt pile.

Sources last night confirmed that bondholders have already been asked to release the Quinn Group from some of its debt obligations agreed back in April.

It is understood that as much as €100m of bonds could be moved from the mainstream Quinn Group to a non-core unit, which has a materially worse credit profile than the main group.

Majority-owner Anglo Irish Bank has ruled out putting cash in to ease the Quinn Group's difficulties, but may have to cede some control to bondholders to convince them to sign up to the new deal.

This could include giving up a veto on any asset sales for the next five years, though sources said it was too early to be specific about any potential concessions.

Initial meetings with a group of more than 120 bondholders took place in London on Wednesday -- the price of Quinn Group debt fell significantly afterwards.

Sources last night confirmed further meetings would take place on Tuesday between the group and bondholders, including US hedge fund Silver Point Capital which has taken a significant position in Quinn Group debt in recent months.

"This is the beginning of a process, but we're hopeful that we can get agreement," one source said, adding that all parties would lose out if the April deal fell apart.

Rescue

Quinn Group chief Paul O'Brien last night insisted the situation does not give rise "to major issues between the parties" and that the group's rescue was still on track.

If the Quinn Group deal breaks down, the sale of Quinn Insurance to Anglo and Liberty Mutual would have to be significantly modified and could collapse.

At meetings this week, Mr O'Brien is understood to have told lenders that 2011's earnings will come in at between €80m and €85m, and not the €100m previously expected.

Mr O'Brien also presented a five-year business plan that was less optimistic than some bondholders had expected, despite recent public comments from Anglo about the Quinn Group's "challenging" trading.

Mr O'Brien said the group was "settling on our banking covenants" ahead of full implementation of the restructuring agreement in April.

"This would be a normal course of events and I would not regard this as giving rise to major issues between the parties," he added. "We are on track to implement the restructuring next month."

The new agreement would see bondholders transfer some of the €700m of bonds that are currently with Quinn Group to a non-core entity that already holds €588m of debt.

The exact amounts of debt to go across have not yet been finalised, but the Irish Independent understands the figure could be as high as €100m.

Under the April deal, Anglo retained an absolute veto over a number of decisions at the Quinn Group, including the sale of assets and redundancies
It is understood that some elements of this veto may have to be "relaxed" to convince the bondholders to come on board with the new structure.
.[/b]


First thing to note is that the Anglo allege to have lower the debt attributed to the company and yet they've tripled the interest payments from £30m to £100m a year. You can tell they sent their best negotiator to that meeting if that's the case!!


I've highlighted the biggest aspect of this article for the people in the border areas. This is despite the promises that Anglo made at the time that there would be no sale of assets within the first 5 years in order to try and quell the unrest. 
And it's the tax payer who's footing the bill as these companies continue to drop in value due to Anglo's inability to organise a piss up in a brewery. And with the additional news that the court cases may now be heard in the European court rather than the Irish one they're grasp on the overseas properties (Roughly £500M) may be alot thinner than they had hoped!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 14, 2011, 10:02:57 PM
It's a sign of how bad things are getting for Anglo and their attempt to run the QG when they have the Taoiseach chasing customers in Mayo for Quinn Cement who have stopped trading with Quinns since they removed SQ.

But sure they've lost no customers apparently!!  ::)

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 18, 2011, 07:20:27 PM

Any wonder the group's struggling with 1M a week payments!! 

THIS is the corporate troubleshooter hired to restructure the Quinn Group. He is paid €915 an hour — equivalent to about €7,000 for an eight-hour day, the Sunday Independent has learned.
This makes accountant and now director of the Quinn Group Murdoch McKillop the highest-paid consultant in Ireland, on a potential weekly wage of €36,000.
The bill is now being picked up by the Quinn Group — and by extension the taxpayer- owned Anglo Irish Bank, which is owed €2.88bn by Sean Quinn and his family. Last week, Anglo chairman Alan Dukes told an Oireachtas committee that the failed bank would end up costing the Irish taxpayer an estimated €25bn to clean up.
Anglo, which appointed a share receiver to the Quinn Group on April 14 to take control of the Quinn family's equity interest in the Quinn Group, did not hire Mr McKillop. A former president of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, Mr McKillop was actually appointed in 2010 at the behest of a number of other banks and institutions which agreed his fees at that time.
This newspaper has learned that the total bill for consultants, advisers and directors with the Quinn Group is now running at close to €1m a week. In a statement to the Sunday Independent, the Quinn Group said: "Such is the restructuring challenge facing the company that both it and its lenders have had to incur significant costs in relation to this complex work.
"The company's management and its advisers are working hard to complete the restructuring as quickly as possible and with a view to minimising these costs." Mr McKillop, of the London- based consultancy Talbot Hughes McKillop, is considered to be a worldwide expert on corporate restructuring. He led many of the UK's largest insolvency projects, including the truck company Leyland DAF.
He also hit the headlines when he was appointed joint administrator of the Maxwell private companies, which imploded following the death of publisher Robert Maxwell, owner of the Daily Mirror, who went overboard and drowned in unexplained circumstances from his luxury yacht, the Lady Ghislaine, in the early 1990s. The Sunday Independent has learned that Mr McKillop, an avid sailor, is on £795 per hour (€913) for his work with the Quinn Group. The fee was agreed in sterling because the company's headquarters are in Derrylin, Co Fermanagh.
His appointment followed representations made by the European and American lenders at the time when the company first got into difficulties. They believed that they needed a corporate heavy-hitter to carry out the restructuring of the company. Sean Quinn was still chairman of Quinn Group at that time. In a rare newspaper interview, Mr McKillop once described the qualities required by those charged with conducting successful insolvency projects.
"I see there being two qualities in particular which successful practitioners have: first, the ability to see through the haze and get down to the important matters; second, an unpanicable manner.
"You mustn't lose your head when things become a bit frantic. You've also got to be able to listen, make your own judgement and communicate that judgement to the client. Those are the key qualities." Mr McKillop joined Arthur Andersen as a graduate recruit from Strathclyde University in Glasgow and stayed there until 2002, when he joined the high-level corporaterestructuring firm Talbot Hughes McKillop LLP.
Though now based in London, Mr McKillop retains his links to his native Scotland through his love of sailing. He is a member of the Royal Northern Yacht Club in Rhu.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on September 18, 2011, 10:28:15 PM
I'm sure he's worth every penny.

Surely it would make sense to have lower basic wages and a high bonus based around results.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on September 19, 2011, 12:07:28 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 14, 2011, 10:02:57 PM
It's a sign of how bad things are getting for Anglo and their attempt to run the QG when they have the Taoiseach chasing customers in Mayo for Quinn Cement who have stopped trading with Quinns since they removed SQ.

But sure they've lost no customers apparently!!  ::)
My father did the same with the car insurance, wee girl rung him up to see why and he told her out straight. went on a bit of a rant actually!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 30, 2011, 07:03:08 PM
FINANCIAL Regulator Matthew Elderfield banned Quinn Insurance's administrators from considering any bids linked to the Quinn family or the insurer's senior management, a Sinn Fein TD claimed yesterday.
Speaking in the Dail yesterday, Caoimhghin O Caolain also cited a recording of one of the administrators telling the insurer's staff that the Quinn family would "never have any involvement whatsoever in this insurance company ever, ever again".
The politician is now calling for the imminent sale of Quinn Insurance to be suspended so there can be a full statutory inquiry into the deal to sell the insurer to Anglo Irish Bank and US insurer Liberty Mutual.
The dramatic claims came as the Dail heard submissions before a vote on legislation to create a €720m Insurance Compensation Fund that will deal with the fallout of Quinn Insurance's collapse.
Mr O Caolain told the house that he headed up a cross-party group that attended a meeting with Mr Elderfield and Central Bank Governor Patrick Honohan on January 25 last.
"In response to a direct question . . . Mr Elderfield stated he had made it abundantly clear to the administrators and to all stakeholders, that there was to be no consideration given to any proposals whatsoever that involved Sean Quinn, his family or any of his senior management team," Mr O Caolain said.
"In other words, and contrary to normal procedure, the administrators had not a free hand."
Mr Elderfield was attending a conference in Korea yesterday and could not be reached for comment.
The Central Bank declined to comment in his absence, but it is understood that Central Bank records of the meeting differ materially from Mr O Caolain's recollection.
The records show that Mr Elderfield was asked whether he had received any proposal from the Quinn family around the insurance company.
He is recorded as having said he had not received any proposals.
The records also show Mr Elderfield mentioned that any individuals involved in a Quinn bid would have to meet the requirements of the Central Bank's new 'fitness and probity' regime.
Mr O'Caoláin also quoted from what he termed a "purported transcript" of comments by Quinn Insurance's joint administrator Michael McAteer, where Mr McAteer stated: "let me be categoric ... the Quinn family are gone".
"They will never have any involvement whatsoever in this insurance company ever, ever again. Now I've been saying that for months," he reportedly added.
It is understood that the comments were made on a conference call with Quinn Insurance employee representatives last December.
The administrators last night said they "strongly condemned" the "unauthorised recording" and said its leaking was "desinged, in their view, to destabilise the comapny and detract from the forthcoming sale of the business".
"The circumstances surrounding the unauthorised recording are being investigated," they added.
- Laura Noonan

 


Think the Regulator might have a bit of explaining to do on this one. And from what I hear the administers might have a few figures to explain aswell. Not least a breakdown of exactly what Liberty were GIVEN to take on the company and how their benifiting from the sale more so than the Irish taxpayers!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on September 30, 2011, 07:13:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 30, 2011, 07:03:08 PM
FINANCIAL Regulator Matthew Elderfield banned Quinn Insurance's administrators from considering any bids linked to the Quinn family or the insurer's senior management, a Sinn Fein TD claimed yesterday.
Speaking in the Dail yesterday, Caoimhghin O Caolain also cited a recording of one of the administrators telling the insurer's staff that the Quinn family would "never have any involvement whatsoever in this insurance company ever, ever again".
The politician is now calling for the imminent sale of Quinn Insurance to be suspended so there can be a full statutory inquiry into the deal to sell the insurer to Anglo Irish Bank and US insurer Liberty Mutual.
The dramatic claims came as the Dail heard submissions before a vote on legislation to create a €720m Insurance Compensation Fund that will deal with the fallout of Quinn Insurance's collapse.
Mr O Caolain told the house that he headed up a cross-party group that attended a meeting with Mr Elderfield and Central Bank Governor Patrick Honohan on January 25 last.
"In response to a direct question . . . Mr Elderfield stated he had made it abundantly clear to the administrators and to all stakeholders, that there was to be no consideration given to any proposals whatsoever that involved Sean Quinn, his family or any of his senior management team," Mr O Caolain said.
"In other words, and contrary to normal procedure, the administrators had not a free hand."
Mr Elderfield was attending a conference in Korea yesterday and could not be reached for comment.
The Central Bank declined to comment in his absence, but it is understood that Central Bank records of the meeting differ materially from Mr O Caolain's recollection.
The records show that Mr Elderfield was asked whether he had received any proposal from the Quinn family around the insurance company.
He is recorded as having said he had not received any proposals.
The records also show Mr Elderfield mentioned that any individuals involved in a Quinn bid would have to meet the requirements of the Central Bank's new 'fitness and probity' regime.
Mr O'Caoláin also quoted from what he termed a "purported transcript" of comments by Quinn Insurance's joint administrator Michael McAteer, where Mr McAteer stated: "let me be categoric ... the Quinn family are gone".
"They will never have any involvement whatsoever in this insurance company ever, ever again. Now I've been saying that for months," he reportedly added.
It is understood that the comments were made on a conference call with Quinn Insurance employee representatives last December.
The administrators last night said they "strongly condemned" the "unauthorised recording" and said its leaking was "desinged, in their view, to destabilise the comapny and detract from the forthcoming sale of the business".
"The circumstances surrounding the unauthorised recording are being investigated," they added.
- Laura Noonan

 


Think the Regulator might have a bit of explaining to do on this one. And from what I hear the administers might have a few figures to explain aswell. Not least a breakdown of exactly what Liberty were GIVEN to take on the company and how their benifiting from the sale more so than the Irish taxpayers!!
Nothing would surprise me about the Quinn situatio anymore, it could turn out they are flushing money down the toilet or burning Irish flags in the heaters and I wouldn't raise an eyebrow. "Sure they're just about for the money". A situation bereft of an morality.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on October 12, 2011, 12:08:23 PM
Im surprised there has been no comment from anyone here about this seeing as some are very vocal about any issue against the Quinns

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/1012/1224305644909.html?via=mr

SIMON CARSWELL and MICHAEL JANSEN in Cyprus

RELATIVES OF businessman Seán Quinn have been accused of stripping $193 million (€142 million) in assets from two Russian companies for the benefit of his family in return for $1,000 and a laptop computer worth $380.

Anglo Irish Bank made the claims in the latest hearing in the complex legal battle between the State-owned bank and Mr Quinn's wife and children for control of the family's international properties.

In a Cyprus court hearing, Anglo claimed that Mr Quinn's wife and five children used a court injunction as cover for "unlawful and hidden actions" to put assets beyond the reach of Anglo, which is owed €2.8 billion by the family. This included transferring the assets of a Russian firm, Finansstroy, which owns the Kutuzoff Tower office block in Moscow, worth $180 million, to their cousin Peter Quinn for about $1,000.

The block is the most valuable asset in the family's international property portfolio which stretches to Turkey, Ukraine and India.

The bank also claimed the family transferred assets worth $13.5 million at another Russian company, Red Sector – the owner of a DIY store – to Stephen Kelly, the husband of Mr Quinn's daughter Aoife, in return for the $380 laptop computer.

The claims are contained in an affidavit sworn by Anglo executive Richard Woodhouse, which was opened in court, despite repeated attempts by the family to block or postpone its admission in the case.

Anglo is seeking to lift the injunction obtained by the family last June which stops the bank seizing control of the properties. The document contained material that was essential to understanding the case, Anglo argued. The Quinns said the claims were "scandalous", "irrelevant", "vexatious" and "frivolous".

The battle for control of the family's international properties, worth about €500 million, has been the subject of lawsuits in Ireland, Cyprus, Sweden and Russia, where the firms behind the properties are based.

Just over €2.3 billion of the family's debt to Anglo arose from loans to cover Mr Quinn's losses on Anglo's share price, which collapsed in the 2008 financial crash. The bank claims the family made changes to international firms giving them full control of Russian properties.

This enabled the firms to accept an unsubstantiated claim for $276 million from a company in the Central American country of Belize that was purportedly unconnected with the family but which Anglo believes is owned by them or for their benefit.

A source close to the family said that any suggestions of criminality against Mr Quinn or his family were "baseless and hardly deserving of comment". "Such spurious allegations will be seen for what they really are; yet another attempt, on the part of Anglo, to blacken the name of Seán Quinn and his family," said the source.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 02:03:27 PM
To be honest I'm not surprised Luder. So far it's been pretty one way with Anglo stripping everything of the Quinns (And making a right pigs ear of that as well). The only pity is that SQ was too niave to have everything out of Anglos reach before now.
Anglo now know how much they've fecked up. I see for the first time ever this week they talked about wat might happen if they lose the claim against the Quinns. I can tell you now if they had a chance to go back and take the Quinn proposal now they would jump at it. As would Noonan. But the way things are going the only winners are going to be the Solicitors and financial advisors.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 12, 2011, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 02:03:27 PM
To be honest I'm not surprised Luder. So far it's been pretty one way with Anglo stripping everything of the Quinns (And making a right pigs ear of that as well). The only pity is that SQ was too niave to have everything out of Anglos reach before now.
Anglo now know how much they've fecked up. I see for the first time ever this week they talked about wat might happen if they lose the claim against the Quinns. I can tell you now if they had a chance to go back and take the Quinn proposal now they would jump at it. As would Noonan. But the way things are going the only winners are going to be the Solicitors and financial advisors.

Please tell me that you're joking? How is it a pity that the fraudulent behaviour against Anglo, which is essentially (and unfortunately) the state taxpayer, wasn't more extensive?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 02:27:41 PM
Not a joke at all. You seem to be asserting that Anglo have a right over these properties. There's court cases pending with regards to what "actual" hold Anglo have over them. Quinns still had control of the foreign properties when the transfers were done so I'd hold of on the fraudulent claims. The tax payer will see nothing from the Quinn debt. And that responsibilty lies with Anglo.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 12, 2011, 03:36:22 PM
Anglo should have a right to take whatever measures necessary to recover payment of the loans that they extended to Sean Quinn. If companies under his control transferred assets away for essentially nothing, only for him to turn around and say that he can't pay back the money he borrowed, then of course that is fraud. Very basic but no less reprehensible.

The fault may lie with Anglo for extending him the money in the first place, but that's as far as it goes. As we all know, the Anglo then and the Anglo now were two very different entities, so to blame the company now for trying to make the best of a horrible situation and to prevent the Quinn family making out like bandits is hardly a bad thing.

These assets are worth approximately €100 per taxpayer in this country. That might be a triviality to you, but it's not to me. That is theft, pure and simple.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 04:15:28 PM
Anglo have no right to do what they want to try and recover the losses. They can do whatever is legal to them and if it turns out they f@@ed up and have lost control over assests due to their incompetience then so be it. I'll cry no tears for them. It's unfortunate that it's fallen on the tax payer but that's as far as my feelings go on that. SQ should do everything in his power to protect him and his family's interests. Anglo and the Irish goverment had their chance to try and work with the Quinns which would have been the better option for the taxpayer, but they thought they knew better and yet again the f@@ked it up. 
So you can cry about theft all you like, just direct it in the right direction!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on October 12, 2011, 04:35:17 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on October 12, 2011, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 02:03:27 PM
To be honest I'm not surprised Luder. So far it's been pretty one way with Anglo stripping everything of the Quinns (And making a right pigs ear of that as well). The only pity is that SQ was too niave to have everything out of Anglos reach before now.
Anglo now know how much they've fecked up. I see for the first time ever this week they talked about wat might happen if they lose the claim against the Quinns. I can tell you now if they had a chance to go back and take the Quinn proposal now they would jump at it. As would Noonan. But the way things are going the only winners are going to be the Solicitors and financial advisors.

Please tell me that you're joking? How is it a pity that the fraudulent behaviour against Anglo, which is essentially (and unfortunately) the state taxpayer, wasn't more extensive?
my first thoughts were this also - however thinking about it more, any monies recovered by anglo most likely would disappear int that great big financial hole and wouldnt be of benefit to the taxpayer.
Do you think anglo will refund us anything that they get back ? I cant see it happening anyhow.
So rather than begrudge the quinns, I would be close to saying fair play to you.
Though wouldnt go quite that far !

has any of the other big 'investors' been pursued by anglo in the same manner quinn was ...
maybe they are but I dont  hear of this as much- all I seem to hear is that they are after quinn.

I suppose he wasnt part of the golden circle so he is fair game !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 12, 2011, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 04:15:28 PM
Anglo have no right to do what they want to try and recover the losses. They can do whatever is legal to them and if it turns out they f@@ed up and have lost control over assests due to their incompetience then so be it. I'll cry no tears for them. It's unfortunate that it's fallen on the tax payer but that's as far as my feelings go on that. SQ should do everything in his power to protect him and his family's interests. Anglo and the Irish goverment had their chance to try and work with the Quinns which would have been the better option for the taxpayer, but they thought they knew better and yet again the f@@ked it up. 
So you can cry about theft all you like, just direct it in the right direction!

I have done. However the treasonous sodomising of this country that was performed by Fianna Fáil in the form of nationalising Anglo, the Bank Guarantee and NAMA does not excuse a free for all where ethics go out the window. Tempting though it is to make the short trip to Clara and take my fury out on Brian Cowen with the breadknife from my crappy rented flat that I will never get out of, it won't solve anyone else's problems and it would make my own situation worse. However my refusal to do that does not mean that I condone what has happened, and neither does it mean that I cannot also condemn this theft as an equally craven, selfish and despicable act, albeit one that doesn't affect me or my ravaged country quite to the same scale.

Some would say that there's a very, very thin line between condoning what the Quinns did and condoning all out anarchy, where we revert to riots in a land without law and order. In fact I would argue that there is no line, they are the same thing. Why is what they did any more acceptable than any of the London rioters did? They pillaged and took what did not rightfully belong to them. The only difference is that the Londoners weren't as well dressed and don't have a legal team to find the loopholes to excuse them for what they did.

If your own sense of right and wrong can't see this, I genuinely don't know whether to despise you or pity you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 05:44:04 PM
To be honest I think you are the only one who would say that. You seem to be forgetting that the transfering of the assests haven't been deemed illegal. The Quinns had control of the companies when the assests were moved. So I hope your not saying that Anglo should have acted illegally to get these assests are you? You wouldn't be suggesting fraud there now would ya?
In addition to that, where do you draw the line with the law and order? at the minute now the Quinns have three strong cases against the state and Anglo with regards to the actions they took. I assume that should the Quinns be deemed legally right that you will support them fully and support any compensation claim that might arise out of that?

Will you feck!!

So it seems to me that it's you that can't decide what is wrong or right.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 12, 2011, 05:55:36 PM
I have no problem determining what is wrong and what is right. I could not be more clear in what I believe.

However in these matters, the sad fact is that there is huge disparity between acts that are right and acts that are legal. I'm not saying for a minute that transferring valuable assets out of an insolvent group of companies for private gain in order to stiff the taxpayer won't be found to be legal, mainly due to the complex system of ownership and cross guarantees of all these sub companies.

I am saying that it is reprehensible, and it turns my stomach, and shows utter disrespect for the other people that have to live in this country and foot the bill. Just as the eminently legal bank guarantee did.

You are saying that what the Quinns did is legal, I am saying that it is morally wrong and they are clearly despicable human beings for doing so. It is entirely possible that we are both correct in our points of view in that regard.






Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 07:06:35 PM
Well it seems to me that you do have a problem deciding what is right and what is not and I would seriously question your morality.

You are looking at this from the view point that Quinns are the villians in the piece from the start and that nothing Anglo have done or are doing is wrong. What you seem to be forgetting is that these problems arose from deceit by anglo in the beginning regarding their balance sheet, was enhanced again when they engaged in support of their share price and then was compounded when they worked out their little military operation to snatch the QG.

And you think that the Quinns should sit back and take that without putting up a fight. Your idea that we can just draw a sand over what happened in Anglo before and what is happening now is nonsense.
The Quinns put their hands up at the mistakes that they made with regards the investment in Anglo, but at least they were prepared to work at solving it rather than turning tale and running. But Anglo decided they could run things better and now look at the QG. On it's fecking knees strangled by huge wages and legal fees.

Your some criac calling SQ despicable considering everything he has done to bolster business in Ireland and improved countless lives around the border area ( tho I'm sure that matters little to yourself). I'm sure you've made as big a contribution yourself have you? Of course I forgot you like to draw a line in the sand and forget everything that went before wouldn't you and all the taxes and investment that the QG made.

You need to catch yourself on with regards who's the villain here. If it comes down to a straight fight between Anglo and SQ I'll be shouting for SQ every day of the week.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 12, 2011, 07:32:23 PM
If you want to have a debate, argue the points I've actually made. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that the Quinns were villains from the start, and of course Anglo are far from blameless. The Anglo of Fitz/Drumm were amoral thieves gaming the system, and I don't doubt that the current administrators are making some tough and possibly incorrect decisions - though I've no reason yet to believe that any of their acts are intentionally malevolent.

I don't believe you are distinguishing between the two Anglos - the private entity that lent the money in the first place, which was of course illicit and wrong, and the current administration which is forced to pick up the pieces. I'm not saying that the current Anglo bosses are doing everything right, indeed I couldn't say it since I don't have all the information, but of the information that is in the public domain, they appear to be working to retrieve as much as possible from their loan book, which is of course in the interests of the Irish taxpayer and citizenry. I stand by my view that there is a huge distinction between these entities.

The root problem is of course the efforts by Anglo Irish to prop up their share price. On this I agree wholeheartedly. However while the board of Anglo Irish bank at the time were way out of line, so was Sean Quinn for taking part in this. Seán Quinn put his entire empire, and by extension all that employment, on the line in order to try and make even more money speculating on Anglo shares. That was his decision.

Since that was Seán Quinn's decision, I don't agree for one second that he, or the Quinn family, were entitled to dictate to Anglo what to do when the muck hit the fan. They may have wanted to work at solving it, but there was no onus on the administrators of Anglo to let that happen. Anglo had to decide what was the best way of proceeding, and they took a decision, which only time will tell whether it was right or wrong. That does not confer on the Quinn family the right to loot assets belonging to the Irish state on the way out.

What must also be noted here is that as a standalone entity, we've seen exactly what a mess was made of Quinn Insurance. Though I'm not a qualified actuary, I did take actuarial studies in college and thus I'm close friends with a lot of people in that business. Anyone who has seen them has said the same thing - the books of Quinn Insurance were a disgrace, leading to the levy we all must now pay, and naturally enough that is a reflection on the ability of the Quinn family to run a business. It's also understandable that since so many of his other businesses were boom/construction related, the ability of the family to generate profits in a recession is hardly proven.

Of course his investment and commitment to the border counties is laudable. of course I'm hugely sympathetic to all the people who have been, or will be made redundant on account of this whole sorry episode. I've been made redundant, I know that pain of waking up the morning after with no idea where your future lies, and how to make a living. However Sean Quinn was the one who took the decision to put all that in jeopardy. Sean Fitz, David Drumm et al may have been the ones to tempt him into it, but ultimately Sean Quinn borrowed the money and that's the be all and end all. He now owes it, he has to forego his assets, and the stealing by his family is just that - stealing.


Quote from: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 07:06:35 PM
You need to catch yourself on with regards who's the villain here. If it comes down to a straight fight between Anglo and SQ I'll be shouting for SQ every day of the week.

It's not a straight fight at all. This is crookery all round. That Seán Quinn might have been honest before doesn't excuse selling assets worth hundreds of millions for loose change, or old laptops, when those assets should be used to discharge his debt to the state.

Is Seán Quinn a better man that Seán Fitzpatrick? Absolutely. But the bar for being called a decent man has to be raised a hell of a lot higher than that.

Can I ask one question? Do you honestly believe that the disposal of assets in this case was right and proper? I don't mean legal, I mean right.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 07:59:13 PM
I have been arguing the points, the difference is that you believe that Sean Quinn should now just allow Anglo to do what they want now. I don't believe that is right or fair. I believe that Sean Quinn should do all in his power to gt whatever he can legally get his hands on. I be live this because I can tell you now it will be worth FA to the Tax payers if it goes to Anglo.
I see no difference between the two Anglos because it is the current one that made to decision to grab the Group. A decision that is going to cost the the Irish tax payers millions and cost jobs in an area that can afford to absolve them. They are the ones who thought they could take over the group (put their own people in there on huge salaries) and run it profitability. We've seen how much of an effort they have made of that. 25 Million down on an already reduced forecast over 6 months. I'll let you do The maths on how that's affecting the tax payers.

You are saying that Sean Quinn had no right to dictate to Anglo. That's fair enough, but he wasn't dictating to them. He was trying to offer a solution to the mess that they were in. Anglo refused to accept it so why do you think Sean Quinn should now be dictated to by Anglo and allow them to take everything without contesting it?
When Anglo went behind Sq's back to grab the group in what the called themselves "A military operation", all gloves were of. You seem to be saying that it's OK for Anglo to do what they want to protect themselves but not for Sean Quinn.

And if you want to know a little more about the "Mess" QIL was in take a look at the details put forward by the Concerned Irish businesses to the courts the week before last in part of a affidavit. It will explain a little more about why there is a levy and who is really going to be making the money from the sale of QIL. And I'll give you a clue it won't be QIL and it wont be the tax payers.

Do I believe that the transfer of assets is fair? In a word yes. Because I don't believe the Quinns should be left with nothing from the industry and effort they have made in Ireland throughout the last 40 odd years. I also believe that if the Quinns come away with finance and aren't bankrupt then they will build again, maybe not to the extent of the QG but I believe there would be reinvestment back into Ireland. Do I believe that Anglo should be allowed to swallow it all up with virtually no return to the tax payers, No. That's my view on what I believe is right, not what I think is legal or necessarily what is going to happen.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 12, 2011, 10:32:34 PM
(1) I don't believe that Seán Quinn should ALLOW Anglo to do anything - I think it should be nothing to do with him. He went all in at the poker table, the assets just aren't his any more, it's as simple as this.

(2) Obviously nothing will ever come back from Anglo into the treasury, however I think we've learned that no matter what Government we put in, any holes that are found will be filled in by the state. As such if there are €300m of Quinn assets that were salted away, then that should fill a hole first.

(3) I would draw a huge distinction between Sean Quinn
Quoteallowing them to take everything without contesting it
and the Quinn family engaging in fraud to turn company property into private assets. Let's be real here, we're not talking about Anglo going after private assets of the Quinn family that they acquired with no involvement from the Quinn group. Neither are we talking about his family home, ridiculous mansion that it is. We're talking about assets of the Quinn group, that were bought for farcically inadequate consideration. Again, I'm amazed that you don't see this.

(4) I'm completely aware that there are huge issues over the sale of Quinn Insurance. I don't know enough about the deal to comment definitively, but from what I can find out about it, Anglo/the State have driven a shockingly bad bargain here. However I'm not sure how that relates to the issue of the transfer of Quinn Group assets to the Quinn family, which is the issue we're discussing now. Short of "two wrongs make a right", I can't see any link. Equally, surely you must acknowledge that the Quinn Insurance business model was hugely flawed, and was far from solvent by any adequate measure? Again, coming back with mention of VHI is simply going down the "two wrongs" road yet again.

(5)
QuoteI don't believe the Quinns should be left with nothing from the industry and effort they have made in Ireland throughout the last 40 odd years.
If Sean Quinn didn't want to lose everything, he shouldn't have gambled everything. That's the beauty of gambling - you can choose your own stake. He gambled everything, he lost it. This is equivalent to the child that killed his parents looking for sympathy on the grounds of being an orphan.

(6)
QuoteI also believe that if the Quinns come away with finance and aren't bankrupt then they will build again, maybe not to the extent of the QG but I believe there would be reinvestment back into Ireland.
Maybe they would. However if the money goes into the exchequer instead, or fills a hole that exchequer funding would otherwise have done, then it definitely would come into Ireland.

(7)
QuoteDo I believe that Anglo should be allowed to swallow it all up with virtually no return to the tax payers, No.
Neither do I. However you seem to think that the answer is for Anglo not to get their hands on it in the first place and leave it with the looters, while I feel that the answer is to administer Anglo better to make sure it comes back. If you've a leaky pipe, you don't fix the problem by turning off the water at the mains. Your tap certainly isn't going to work again that way.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on October 12, 2011, 10:59:04 PM
Excellently put LS >Have to say I'd be on your side of this particular argument
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2011, 11:23:36 PM
1) We'll differ on that. As far as I'm concerned the Quinn family built up the assets and if there was wrong doing by Anglo in trying to take these assets then SQ is very much involved and has ever right to challenge their authority over the assets.

2) There's going to be that much wasted on court fees and consultancy fees that there'll be little to fill any holes by the time it's finished.

3) The assets in question were in the children's names. And from the looks of it Anglo are on very dubious ground with how much "authority" they actually have over these assets. so the Quinns were more than entitled to protect themselves from Anglo attempting to gain control over them. Bringing up the house is getting slightly childish. It was built when the group was going well, hardly a crime is it? And I think your not fully informed if you think that they aren't targeting the house.

4) Er it was you that brought up QIL highlighting it as how the Quinns can't run a company (Tho I think there's plenty of evidence to the contrary). So I was just addressing that point.

5) It's easy to make the gambling allegation into it. But if your going to do that then I think you would agree that if the house isn't playing fair then a punter is well entitled to look his money back.

6) I'd have more confidence of the Quinns developing business in Ireland than either anglo or the Government. You may feel differently and that's fine. another point we'll just disagree on.

7) Leave the looters comments aside. I'd be more inclined of saying I'd rather leave the assets with the rightful owners. Again another point I'm sure we'll not agree on.

But anyway I think it's bedtime.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on October 12, 2011, 11:31:01 PM
I'm with Sarfields. Quinn created something out of nothing, employment for thousands and after a mistake he made the establishment contrived to take him down. I have no problem with him fighting to keep it under control. He's an honourable man in my eyes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 12, 2011, 11:42:26 PM
(1) The legal argument here will be made by people better educated than me, but if Sean Quinn owes billions to Anglo, then it's only right that Sean Quinns assets be put towards that debt. The fact that they built them up doesn't change the fact that Sean lost them.

(2) But by that logic the state would never take any court case where they wouldn't cover the legal fee. That's as much an argument for the Quinns backing down as it is for Anglo. It's also a statement of the ridiculous legal costs in the state - which is introducing another scandal, but still not addressing this one.

(3) If it turns out that these assets were in the children's names since before Sean made his bet and the Quinn group became insolvent, were not offered as collateral and no personal guarantees were given by the owners in question, then of course they should stay with the owners. However if that's the case, why are they being sought by Anglo? Why bother with the transfer at all? What am I missing here? Sean Quinn owes Anglo money, and the Quinn Group falls under Anglo's control as a result. Why do any of the five children have to forfeit personal assets?

(4) I believe that there is no evidence that the Quinns can run a financial company, no. Definitely that's an "agree to disagree" job.

(5) It's not an allegation of gambling - it was gambling. In fact his trade was one of the most volatile, risk-laden bets struck by anyone, ever. Secondly, the house was not Anglo. Anglo merely encouraged him to bet. The house was the stock market, which was sending very clear signals that they did not rate Anglo and felt they were on the way out. Sean chose to go against that view. If a trainer or jockey tells me to put my entire fortune on a particular horse, and the horse falls, it's not the bookie that's not playing fair.

Agree to disagree on the rest, as you say.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 13, 2011, 12:34:42 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 12, 2011, 11:31:01 PM
I'm with Sarfields. Quinn created something out of nothing, employment for thousands and after a mistake he made the establishment contrived to take him down. I have no problem with him fighting to keep it under control. He's an honourable man in my eyes.

Or to put it another way, after he borrowed billions, the establishment contrived to make him pay back the loan that he took out to use for gambling purposes.

We're judging the act here of transferring company assets to private family members so as to keep them away from a bank trying to recoup losses for the taxpayers of this company. I cannot understand this mentality of how those who create employment are entitled to commit these crimes, since their past honourable deeds allows them.

That said, I'm actually interested in this good deeds allows free crime line of thinking. I wonder how many homeless shelters would I have to build and how many jobs I would have to create to allow myself a free and without consequence five minutes in a room with Bertie Ahern in order that I might beat the living daylights out of him? Seeing as job creation seemingly allows you to commit wrongdoing without consequence.

I may be swung around to ye're line of thinking yet.



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on October 13, 2011, 01:37:00 AM
Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 13, 2011, 02:40:35 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 13, 2011, 01:37:00 AM
Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4777.msg168348#msg168348 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4777.msg168348#msg168348)

That's from 2007. The board changed server the year before, I've been vocal on this since 2005.


Is there anyone out there who thinks that the Quinn family did the right thing in transferring, without justifying it by way of saying that the Government/Anglo were worse, or that the money would never make it's way back to the state anyway?

I hate using that contrived phrase "whataboutery" but it is ridiculously apt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on October 13, 2011, 09:46:45 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 13, 2011, 01:37:00 AM
Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

I live in Fermanagh and can see the benefits that can accrue from "risk taking entrepreneurial skills".  However what occured with SQ was, in my opinion, reckless gambling rather than risk taking.  Also (in the North at least) the deliberate transfer of assets in order to avoid creditors or liabilities is a no-no.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on October 13, 2011, 12:18:51 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on October 13, 2011, 02:40:35 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 13, 2011, 01:37:00 AM
Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4777.msg168348#msg168348 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4777.msg168348#msg168348)

That's from 2007. The board changed server the year before, I've been vocal on this since 2005.


Is there anyone out there who thinks that the Quinn family did the right thing in transferring, without justifying it by way of saying that the Government/Anglo were worse, or that the money would never make it's way back to the state anyway?

I hate using that contrived phrase "whataboutery" but it is ridiculously apt.

Me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 13, 2011, 02:45:53 PM
Easier said when it's not your tax to fill in the hole I suppose.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Evil Genius on October 13, 2011, 07:57:48 PM
Quote from: AQMP on October 13, 2011, 09:46:45 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 13, 2011, 01:37:00 AM
Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

I live in Fermanagh and can see the benefits that can accrue from "risk taking entrepreneurial skills".  However what occured with SQ was, in my opinion, reckless gambling rather than risk taking.  Also (in the North at least) the deliberate transfer of assets in order to avoid creditors or liabilities is a no-no.
As a Fermanaghman myself, I hate to see so many good people either losing, or fearing the loss of, their jobs.

But it seems clear to me that from the very start, SQ was/is a gambler. Now granted, he was a very astute gambler (Cement, Glass, Insurance etc), so much so that his efforts created great wealth and jobs etc.

However, like all compulisves, he could (or would) not stop when he reached the limits of his knowledge and expertise. Instead, he extended and increased his gambling, first into the Banking and Property, then into the market in banking and Property Shares, an area where he was clearly out of his depth. Worse, when it all bagan to go wrong, rather than liquidating his losses when they were manageable and retreating to the businesses which he did know, he plunged further in.

That is, he borrowed more money, in highly dubious circumstances, from the self-same people to whom he owed his existing gambling debts, and in an effort to chase his losses, staked it on hugely volatile (and risky) leveraged finacial share derivatives, in an act of desperation which was only likely to go one way.

Worse again, having lost the lot by his recklessness, he then started diverting assets away from his (still profitable) other businesses (especially Insurance), in a gigantic act of throwing good money after bad, which itself was never going to be sufficient.

And finally, now that he has at last been stopped from carrying on gambling, it is alleged that he and his family are busily engaged in hiding what overseas assets they can, from the body duly authorised to try and retrieve what it can from the whole bloody mess, on behalf of the State which ultimately will pick up the bill.

And still there are people out there who sympathise for SQ, despite all the unfolding evidence of just how much havoc he has brought upon himself, and by extension, his loyal supporters and employees etc.

Anyhow, maybe if the people chasing Quinn are as perceptive and learned etc as the likes of Loan Shark, it may be possible to retrieve at least something  from Quinn's overseas assets.

But if they fail, I will confidently predict one thing: there is a better chance of Hell freezing over than there is of the Quinns repatriating those assets back to Ireland, for the benefit of the aformentioned good people of Fermanagh and the other border counties...  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on October 13, 2011, 08:11:01 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on October 13, 2011, 02:45:53 PM
Easier said when it's not your tax to fill in the hole I suppose.
even if the money/assets are recovered by anglo - what chance or what is th procedure then for anglo to repay to the taxpayer?
there could be some semblence of a policy /procedure out there but I just dont know.
the cynic in me suspects as I have said before that the taxpayer wont recoup anyting - it will go into the big black debt hole as directed by anglo.

also annoyed that its only quinn thats being seemingly chased. Hear that fitz is under investigation, but like those tribunals, they waste time and nothing ever comes of them - again thinks the cynic in me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on November 11, 2011, 11:37:09 AM
The great man is filing for bankruptcy in Belfast a week after Anglo took steps to recoup some of the €2bn personal guaranteees that Quinn gave.

Sean Quinn has applied for bankruptcy in the High Court in Belfast this morning.

The Fermanagh-born businessman and founder of the Quinn Group has issued a statement in the past hour, saying he has done everything in his power to avoid taking what the calls the "drastic decision".

However he said he has been left with no alternative.

Mr Quinn and his family are estimated to owe €2.8bn to Anglo Irish Bank.

Anglo last week lodged High Court documents signalling its intention to call in almost €2bn in personal guarantees given by the former head of Quinn Group.

Read more: http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/quinn-applies-for-bankruptcy-527984.html#ixzz1dObeEnxs

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: southdown on November 11, 2011, 12:39:16 PM
Quote from: AQMP on October 13, 2011, 09:46:45 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 13, 2011, 01:37:00 AM
Where are you from Lone Shark, I'm guessing its not a region that benefited from the risk-taking entrepreneurial skills of SQ. And I would guess its from a region where Anglo's/governments mismanagement has run the country into the ground. Don't kid yourself, Ireland is in a shithole due to a heavily supported government which reduced taxes whilst increasing expenditure without word of complaint from the opposition or the electorate. If you voted FF or didn't suggest any of what was going on was unacceptable, then you have only yourself to blame.

I live in Fermanagh and can see the benefits that can accrue from "risk taking entrepreneurial skills".  However what occured with SQ was, in my opinion, reckless gambling rather than risk taking.  Also (in the North at least) the deliberate transfer of assets in order to avoid creditors or liabilities is a no-no.

Is it really a no-no? Iv heard multiple stories of this going on. But I stand to be corrected
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 11, 2011, 12:40:19 PM

Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn - once believed to have been Ireland's richest man - has been declared bankrupt.

He was granted a voluntary adjudication at Belfast High Court on Friday over an alleged 2.8bn euros (£2.4bn) debt owed to Anglo Irish Bank.

Mr Quinn, 64, was stripped of control of his manufacturing and insurance business empire in April and owes billions of pounds.

He and his family are engaged in a legal battle with Anglo Irish Bank.

Mr Quinn was reputedly worth 4.72bn euros (£3.7bn) at the height of his business success.

It is believed to be one of the biggest bankruptcy orders of its kind ever made in either the United Kingdom or Ireland.

Mr Quinn said he brought the application north of the border because he was born, reared and worked all his life in County Fermanagh.

But by declaring himself bankrupt in Northern Ireland it also means he only has to wait a year before going back into business - rather than 12 years in the Republic.

Continue reading the main story
"
Start Quote
I have done absolutely everything in my power to avoid taking this drastic decision"
End Quote
Sean Quinn
He claimed to have been left with no alternative but to take the "drastic decision" over problems which stemmed from "ill-fated investments in Anglo".

Mr Quinn accepts that he owes around 194m euros to Anglo for property loans which he cannot repay.

But the rest of the alleged debt, which relates to Contracts for Difference (CFDs) used to buy bank shares, is disputed.

The Quinn family are currently suing Anglo, claiming the CFDs were tainted with illegality.

Mr Quinn applied for voluntary bankruptcy through his lawyer and licensed insolvency practitioner, John Gordon of Napier and Sons.

The order was granted during a brief hearing before a Master at the High Court in Belfast.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Agent Orange on November 11, 2011, 12:45:46 PM
Isnt that what is known locally as a "move"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on November 11, 2011, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on November 11, 2011, 12:45:46 PM
Isnt that what is known locally as a "move"

Shamefull move especially on a day when the state where he owe's most of the money is inaugurating a new president ..
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on November 11, 2011, 01:04:00 PM
Quote from: mick999 on November 11, 2011, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on November 11, 2011, 12:45:46 PM
Isnt that what is known locally as a "move"

Shamefull move especially on a day when the state where he owe's most of the money is inaugurating a new president ..

He distributed his millions among his children, then declared himself bankrupt in the North so that he can be back in business debt-free in a year. At the same time, we (the taxpayers in the south) will be left to pay off his massive €2.8bn debts.
And people here try to say he's a great man.  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 11, 2011, 01:21:17 PM
Quote from: mick999 on November 11, 2011, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on November 11, 2011, 12:45:46 PM
Isnt that what is known locally as a "move"

Shamefull move especially on a day when the state where he owe's most of the money is inaugurating a new president ..

You think that's a coincidence? Great day to bury bad news, plus the presence of judges etc makes it more difficult for anyone to nip into the Four Courts down here and make him bankrupt in the South first.

But then I guess this is the kind of thing that qualifies as "entrepreneurial skill" to some people.

When he first lost all the money I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as somebody who got sucked in, made a bad decision and seemed willing to try and make things right. Everything that's happened since tells me that he's no different from Seanie Fitz, David Drumm or any of the rest. A selfish traitor.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 11, 2011, 02:36:46 PM
Quinn and his family owe 600€ to every person in the 26 counties

And will bear a significant  responsibility for the default when it comes.
And the butchering of government spending that follows. 

quinn owes all the special needs kids an apology. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on November 11, 2011, 03:18:45 PM
He's a true partitionist as well it seems - well able to use the border for his own gain.
He filed for bankruptcy saying that "I was born, reared and worked all my life in Co Fermanagh. It is for this reason that my bankruptcy application was made today in Northern Ireland.''

This despite the facts he and his family live in Cavan, most of his former businesses are based in the south, his debts are to banks in the south and the southern taxpayers are footing the bill!

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bord na Mona man on November 11, 2011, 03:38:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 11, 2011, 02:36:46 PM
Quinn and his family owe 600€ to every person in the 26 counties
If a pickpocket working 24/7, stole a wallet with €200 in it every minute, it would take him 23 years to match Quinn on that score.

He was a great entrepreneur all right!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 11, 2011, 03:41:14 PM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on November 11, 2011, 03:38:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 11, 2011, 02:36:46 PM
Quinn and his family owe 600€ to every person in the 26 counties
If a pickpocket working 24/7, stole a wallet with €200 in it every minute, it would take him 23 years to match Quinn on that score.

He was a great entrepreneur all right!

Privatise the profit and socialise the losses

It is all linked to the number of GAA players emigrating as well, of course. The whole country has to pay the price for the gambling of less than 500 people. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on November 11, 2011, 03:49:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 11, 2011, 03:41:14 PM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on November 11, 2011, 03:38:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 11, 2011, 02:36:46 PM
Quinn and his family owe 600€ to every person in the 26 counties
If a pickpocket working 24/7, stole a wallet with €200 in it every minute, it would take him 23 years to match Quinn on that score.

He was a great entrepreneur all right!

Privatise the profit and socialise the losses

It is all linked to the number of GAA players emigrating as well, of course. The whole country has to pay the price for the gambling of less than 500 people.

But the 500 worked very hard and we need risk takers don't we?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 11, 2011, 05:33:38 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 11, 2011, 01:21:17 PM
Quote from: mick999 on November 11, 2011, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on November 11, 2011, 12:45:46 PM
Isnt that what is known locally as a "move"

Shamefull move especially on a day when the state where he owe's most of the money is inaugurating a new president ..

You think that's a coincidence? Great day to bury bad news, plus the presence of judges etc makes it more difficult for anyone to nip into the Four Courts down here and make him bankrupt in the South first.

But then I guess this is the kind of thing that qualifies as "entrepreneurial skill" to some people.

When he first lost all the money I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as somebody who got sucked in, made a bad decision and seemed willing to try and make things right. Everything that's happened since tells me that he's no different from Seanie Fitz, David Drumm or any of the rest. A selfish traitor.

It happening today has nothing to do with "burying bad news". It has to do with Anglo trying to run the bankruptcy down south over the next two weeks. Plus you can't just "nip in" to the four courts. There's a process down south that takes a couple of weeks for bankruptcy. So that point was a bit of nonsense.

And regarding him giving his money to his kids before declaring himself bankrupt is another load of crap. Virtually everything in the kids names now, has been there since pre-administration when he would never have thought things would come to this. He had always said that he was building the group for the kids and most stuff was in their names from day one.

I can understand people's annoyance at the way this is turning out. But I can tell you now there is no sadder man at the minute in Ireland than SQ. He isn't going to swan into the sunset without a worry in his head. He is a broken man at the way this has turned out and while I don't expect everyone to feel pity for him, he has hardly gotten of scott free. He has lost a empire that he built up over 38 years and seen it torn to shreds and run into the ground.

I also notice that people here are counting the money out of tehir own pockets. How about you look at the big picture and count from start to finish how much SQ owes the people of Ireland. Take into account the group's taxes , employment over the years. It's easy now to write all that off and say that so what. But your showing a very one sided view.
He's made massive mistakes and ther're going to have an effect on everyone. Much the same as the successes that he had also made a big impact on everyone else. But it seems here that all is easy forgotten.

It's a sad day alright.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 11, 2011, 05:52:59 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 11, 2011, 05:33:38 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 11, 2011, 01:21:17 PM
Quote from: mick999 on November 11, 2011, 12:53:33 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on November 11, 2011, 12:45:46 PM
Isnt that what is known locally as a "move"

Shamefull move especially on a day when the state where he owe's most of the money is inaugurating a new president ..

You think that's a coincidence? Great day to bury bad news, plus the presence of judges etc makes it more difficult for anyone to nip into the Four Courts down here and make him bankrupt in the South first.

But then I guess this is the kind of thing that qualifies as "entrepreneurial skill" to some people.

When he first lost all the money I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as somebody who got sucked in, made a bad decision and seemed willing to try and make things right. Everything that's happened since tells me that he's no different from Seanie Fitz, David Drumm or any of the rest. A selfish traitor.

It happening today has nothing to do with "burying bad news". It has to do with Anglo trying to run the bankruptcy down south over the next two weeks. Plus you can't just "nip in" to the four courts. There's a process down south that takes a couple of weeks for bankruptcy. So that point was a bit of nonsense.

And regarding him giving his money to his kids before declaring himself bankrupt is another load of crap. Virtually everything in the kids names now, has been there since pre-administration when he would never have thought things would come to this. He had always said that he was building the group for the kids and most stuff was in their names from day one.

I can understand people's annoyance at the way this is turning out. But I can tell you now there is no sadder man at the minute in Ireland than SQ. He isn't going to swan into the sunset without a worry in his head. He is a broken man at the way this has turned out and while I don't expect everyone to feel pity for him, he has hardly gotten of scott free. He has lost a empire that he built up over 38 years and seen it torn to shreds and run into the ground.

I also notice that people here are counting the money out of tehir own pockets. How about you look at the big picture and count from start to finish how much SQ owes the people of Ireland. Take into account the group's taxes , employment over the years. It's easy now to write all that off and say that so what. But your showing a very one sided view.
He's made massive mistakes and ther're going to have an effect on everyone. Much the same as the successes that he had also made a big impact on everyone else. But it seems here that all is easy forgotten.

It's a sad day alright.

Supersars I know you are from around Fermanagh but €2.8 bn is more than he ever paid in taxes. Last week Ireland paid $1bn to bond vultures on behalf of SQ. The money came from the education budget for special needs children. And the capital budget.  Hardy's son had to emigrate. 450,000 unemployed. SMES can't get loans.  Default is probably coming.  Thanks to SQ and Derek Quinlan and the rest of the boys.  Of course if we had a decent bank resolution scheme it wouldn't have been so painful. But we are where we are.

I see  the Sindo is still in awe of Johnny Ronan.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 11, 2011, 06:38:02 PM
Not from Fermanagh Seafoid, thank the lord!!

But I'm not just on about direct taxes alone (Which i hardly a drop in the ocean either). But I'm on about people being employed with cash in their pockets for the guts of 38 years. I'm taking about nearly 6000 peopl employed by QG& QIL at the peak times. You can't say that Ireland didn't benefitted hugely from that financially.
I'm sorry for Hardy's son. I really am. But look at the hundreds of people's sons and daughters in Fermanagh and Cavan that haven't had to emigrate because of the development work by SQ throughout the years. Look at the peole who were unqualified and trained up by the QG.  Without that development they would surely have to because I can tell you there was little investment coming from anywere else for that area. And maybe that's why so many locals still stay loyal to him.

I'm not on here to say SQ is a saint and that he did everything for the love of the local area. But for me the measure of the man is what he did during his career and not just what happened in the dying days of it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on November 11, 2011, 06:45:56 PM
He's doing fine in Australia lads. Thanks for the concern and good wishes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on November 12, 2011, 11:46:48 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 11, 2011, 06:38:02 PM
Not from Fermanagh Seafoid, thank the lord!!

But I'm not just on about direct taxes alone (Which i hardly a drop in the ocean either). But I'm on about people being employed with cash in their pockets for the guts of 38 years. I'm taking about nearly 6000 peopl employed by QG& QIL at the peak times. You can't say that Ireland didn't benefitted hugely from that financially.
I'm sorry for Hardy's son. I really am. But look at the hundreds of people's sons and daughters in Fermanagh and Cavan that haven't had to emigrate because of the development work by SQ throughout the years. Look at the peole who were unqualified and trained up by the QG.  Without that development they would surely have to because I can tell you there was little investment coming from anywere else for that area. And maybe that's why so many locals still stay loyal to him.

I'm not on here to say SQ is a saint and that he did everything for the love of the local area. But for me the measure of the man is what he did during his career and not just what happened in the dying days of it.

Sorry supersars...the cynical bankruptcy move and the failure to repay what he borrowed to drive his greed (his words) is the measure of the man.  In my view he's behaving like a con man.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 12, 2011, 12:08:32 PM
People need to read up a little on this me thinks. Getting bankruptcy in the north only means he can go back into business again in 12 months rather than 12 years. It doesn't change the amount he owes (contested or otherwise). This hasn't written of any of the dept or changed Anglo chasing it.

But everyone is entitled to their own opinion so I guess we'll agree to differ on this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on November 12, 2011, 12:30:34 PM
SQ admits to owing Anglo approx €193 mill...which he says he can't repay.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on November 12, 2011, 01:03:16 PM
Sean Quinn owes me nothing. The people of the border region (as Super Sars alludes to) will not forget everything that he brought to the area over 38 years.
He took a massive gamble in a bank that was being run by cowboys. He should have known better. But to compare the man to Sean Fitz is ridiculous. If Sean Quinn had been left to run HIS company I'd be pretty sure Toxic Anglo (sorry I mean the Irish taxpayer  ::) would have re-couped most of the money owed but the Administrators/Government knew better. This region was never going to support the Administrators or Anglo auditors. Full Stop.
Whoever heard of acceptable Liquidity Ratios before Sean Quinn was brought to task over them?
I'm not here to debate. I don't expect people from outside the Cavan/Fermanagh/Leitrim/Monaghan area to understand my opinions but it is an opinion that is prevalent up here and all the RTE/Government spin will not change that.
My own mother and her two sisters were made redundant over the whole mess. But we all know who we blame.
Best of luck to Sean Quinn in his next move.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on November 12, 2011, 01:33:49 PM
Quote from: boojangles on November 12, 2011, 01:03:16 PM
Sean Quinn owes me nothing. The people of the border region (as Super Sars alludes to) will not forget everything that he brought to the area over 38 years.
He took a massive gamble in a bank that was being run by cowboys. He should have known better. But to compare the man to Sean Fitz is ridiculous. If Sean Quinn had been left to run HIS company I'd be pretty sure Toxic Anglo (sorry I mean the Irish taxpayer  ::) would have re-couped most of the money owed but the Administrators/Government knew better. This region was never going to support the Administrators or Anglo auditors. Full Stop.
Whoever heard of acceptable Liquidity Ratios before Sean Quinn was brought to task over them?
I'm not here to debate. I don't expect people from outside the Cavan/Fermanagh/Leitrim/Monaghan area to understand my opinions but it is an opinion that is prevalent up here and all the RTE/Government spin will not change that.
My own mother and her two sisters were made redundant over the whole mess. But we all know who we blame.
Best of luck to Sean Quinn in his next move.

OK.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 12, 2011, 01:36:10 PM
Quote from: boojangles on November 12, 2011, 01:03:16 PM
Sean Quinn owes me nothing. The people of the border region (as Super Sars alludes to) will not forget everything that he brought to the area over 38 years.
He took a massive gamble in a bank that was being run by cowboys. He should have known better. But to compare the man to Sean Fitz is ridiculous. If Sean Quinn had been left to run HIS company I'd be pretty sure Toxic Anglo (sorry I mean the Irish taxpayer  ::) would have re-couped most of the money owed but the Administrators/Government knew better. This region was never going to support the Administrators or Anglo auditors. Full Stop.
Whoever heard of acceptable Liquidity Ratios before Sean Quinn was brought to task over them?
I'm not here to debate. I don't expect people from outside the Cavan/Fermanagh/Leitrim/Monaghan area to understand my opinions but it is an opinion that is prevalent up here and all the RTE/Government spin will not change that.
My own mother and her two sisters were made redundant over the whole mess. But we all know who we blame.
Best of luck to Sean Quinn in his next move.

Well said. How many ida jobs in Cavan over the course of the Celtic tiger. Zero. Before that zero. Quinn was in this region, his home, creating jobs when no f**ker in Dublin or elsewhere did anything for this region. He never sent jobs abroad even though he could have saved serious money. He was not a flashy man, pretty down to earth actually. Most of Ye don't understand the loyalty as boojangles says. I look forward to 12 months time when Sean Quinn will be back making more jobs while fg/ff policies force more people to emigrate
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on November 12, 2011, 02:08:20 PM
Im not sure how folks think SQ would better serve the Southern taxpayer (to any degree of signifigance relative to his debts) by declaring bankruptcy in Dublin just to have his carcass picked over 12 years. In any case the money would effectively be fed into a black hole and the taxpayer would see no benefit.

If I were him I would want to spend the short remaining years of my working life to actively promote and drive new business for the area and taxpayer that supported me on the way up. The man obviously still has influence and ability after all.

We will see what difference he and his family can make over the next 5-10 years now he can start afresh in a year or so. I believe he can still galvanise the areas loyal to him in new or not so new enterprises.

Is there a chance of Drumm or Seanie Fitz coming back to make amends? Is there f**k. The worst kind of bankster parasite that drained the country dry. You couldn't equate SQ with the likes of that.

He can contribute best by being allowed to get back in the game as soon as possible, creating employment and having the decency to ensure he and those close to him take a very modest cut out of it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on November 12, 2011, 02:08:59 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 12, 2011, 01:36:10 PM
Quote from: boojangles on November 12, 2011, 01:03:16 PM
Sean Quinn owes me nothing. The people of the border region (as Super Sars alludes to) will not forget everything that he brought to the area over 38 years.
He took a massive gamble in a bank that was being run by cowboys. He should have known better. But to compare the man to Sean Fitz is ridiculous. If Sean Quinn had been left to run HIS company I'd be pretty sure Toxic Anglo (sorry I mean the Irish taxpayer  ::) would have re-couped most of the money owed but the Administrators/Government knew better. This region was never going to support the Administrators or Anglo auditors. Full Stop.
Whoever heard of acceptable Liquidity Ratios before Sean Quinn was brought to task over them?
I'm not here to debate. I don't expect people from outside the Cavan/Fermanagh/Leitrim/Monaghan area to understand my opinions but it is an opinion that is prevalent up here and all the RTE/Government spin will not change that.
My own mother and her two sisters were made redundant over the whole mess. But we all know who we blame.
Best of luck to Sean Quinn in his next move.

Well said. How many ida jobs in Cavan over the course of the Celtic tiger. Zero. Before that zero. Quinn was in this region, his home, creating jobs when no f**ker in Dublin or elsewhere did anything for this region. He never sent jobs abroad even though he could have saved serious money. He was not a flashy man, pretty down to earth actually. Most of Ye don't understand the loyalty as boojangles says. I look forward to 12 months time when Sean Quinn will be back making more jobs while fg/ff policies force more people to emigrate

Yes, he was a great man for the border region. He created hundreds of jobs (and many more spin off jobs I assume) and everyone would acknoledge that I'm sure.
But then he took some massive gambles, lost spectacularly and is now trying to weasel his way out of it by dumping HIS huge debts on US (the taxpayers). Why the f*ck should I be punished for Sean Quinn's mistakes!!?
It's the same question as has been asked re Seanie Fitz, Fingleton etc
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on November 12, 2011, 02:10:04 PM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on November 12, 2011, 02:08:20 PM
Im not sure how folks think SQ would better serve the Southern taxpayer (to any degree of signifigance relative to his debts) by declaring bankruptcy in Dublin just to have his carcass picked over 12 years. In any case the money would effectively be fed into a black hole and the taxpayer would see no benefit.

If I were him I would want to spend the short remaining years of my working life to actively promote and drive new business for the area and taxpayer that supported me on the way up. The man obviously still has influence and ability after all.

We will see what difference he and his family can make over the next 5-10 years now he can start afresh in a year or so. I believe he can still galvanise the areas loyal to him in new or not so new enterprises.

Is there a chance of Drumm or Seanie Fitz coming back to make amends? Is there f**k. The worst kind of bankster parasite that drained the country dry. You couldn't equate SQ with the likes of that.

He can contribute best by being allowed to get back in the game as soon as possible, creating employment and having the decency to ensure he and those close to him take a very modest cut out of it.

And who pays the €2.8bn?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on November 12, 2011, 02:15:30 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on November 12, 2011, 02:10:04 PM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on November 12, 2011, 02:08:20 PM
Im not sure how folks think SQ would better serve the Southern taxpayer (to any degree of signifigance relative to his debts) by declaring bankruptcy in Dublin just to have his carcass picked over 12 years. In any case the money would effectively be fed into a black hole and the taxpayer would see no benefit.

If I were him I would want to spend the short remaining years of my working life to actively promote and drive new business for the area and taxpayer that supported me on the way up. The man obviously still has influence and ability after all.

We will see what difference he and his family can make over the next 5-10 years now he can start afresh in a year or so. I believe he can still galvanise the areas loyal to him in new or not so new enterprises.

Is there a chance of Drumm or Seanie Fitz coming back to make amends? Is there f**k. The worst kind of bankster parasite that drained the country dry. You couldn't equate SQ with the likes of that.

He can contribute best by being allowed to get back in the game as soon as possible, creating employment and having the decency to ensure he and those close to him take a very modest cut out of it.

And who pays the €2.8bn?

2.8bn will never be recouped.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on November 12, 2011, 02:16:59 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on November 12, 2011, 02:08:59 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 12, 2011, 01:36:10 PM
Quote from: boojangles on November 12, 2011, 01:03:16 PM
Sean Quinn owes me nothing. The people of the border region (as Super Sars alludes to) will not forget everything that he brought to the area over 38 years.
He took a massive gamble in a bank that was being run by cowboys. He should have known better. But to compare the man to Sean Fitz is ridiculous. If Sean Quinn had been left to run HIS company I'd be pretty sure Toxic Anglo (sorry I mean the Irish taxpayer  ::) would have re-couped most of the money owed but the Administrators/Government knew better. This region was never going to support the Administrators or Anglo auditors. Full Stop.
Whoever heard of acceptable Liquidity Ratios before Sean Quinn was brought to task over them?
I'm not here to debate. I don't expect people from outside the Cavan/Fermanagh/Leitrim/Monaghan area to understand my opinions but it is an opinion that is prevalent up here and all the RTE/Government spin will not change that.
My own mother and her two sisters were made redundant over the whole mess. But we all know who we blame.
Best of luck to Sean Quinn in his next move.

Well said. How many ida jobs in Cavan over the course of the Celtic tiger. Zero. Before that zero. Quinn was in this region, his home, creating jobs when no f**ker in Dublin or elsewhere did anything for this region. He never sent jobs abroad even though he could have saved serious money. He was not a flashy man, pretty down to earth actually. Most of Ye don't understand the loyalty as boojangles says. I look forward to 12 months time when Sean Quinn will be back making more jobs while fg/ff policies force more people to emigrate

Yes, he was a great man for the border region. He created hundreds of jobs (and many more spin off jobs I assume) and everyone would acknoledge that I'm sure.
But then he took some massive gambles, lost spectacularly and is now trying to weasel his way out of it by dumping HIS huge debts on US (the taxpayers). Why the f*ck should I be punished for Sean Quinn's mistakes!!?
It's the same question as has been asked re Seanie Fitz, Fingleton etc

Hold on a second.  The reason that you, the taxpayer, have been left to foot the bill for Sean Quinn's business mistakes has nothing to do with any decision that Sean Quinn ever took.  The fault for that lies solely with Lenihan and Co when they decided that you, the taxpayer, should take responsibility for the toxic debts of that blood sucking hole Anglo.  Sean Quinn didn't foist this one on you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 12, 2011, 02:24:39 PM
What's the best result for Ireland looking forward. Quinn back on business in 1 yr or Quinn back in business in 12 yrs? The man has a track record on job creation  so let him at it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on November 12, 2011, 03:59:14 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 12, 2011, 02:16:59 PM
Hold on a second.  The reason that you, the taxpayer, have been left to foot the bill for Sean Quinn's business mistakes has nothing to do with any decision that Sean Quinn ever took.  The fault for that lies solely with Lenihan and Co when they decided that you, the taxpayer, should take responsibility for the toxic debts of that blood sucking hole Anglo.  Sean Quinn didn't foist this one on you.

There are two separate issues here.

a) Lenihan's guarantee bet the economy on the banks staying solvent. They didn't. We lost.

b) Quinn bet the Quinn group on Anglo's share price rising. It didn't. We lost again as his losses were to Anglo. (btw why was this, did Anglo lend him the money to buy out the CFD in Anglo?) Thanks to a) above Anglo's losses are our losses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on November 12, 2011, 06:28:31 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 12, 2011, 02:16:59 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on November 12, 2011, 02:08:59 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 12, 2011, 01:36:10 PM
Quote from: boojangles on November 12, 2011, 01:03:16 PM
Sean Quinn owes me nothing. The people of the border region (as Super Sars alludes to) will not forget everything that he brought to the area over 38 years.
He took a massive gamble in a bank that was being run by cowboys. He should have known better. But to compare the man to Sean Fitz is ridiculous. If Sean Quinn had been left to run HIS company I'd be pretty sure Toxic Anglo (sorry I mean the Irish taxpayer  ::) would have re-couped most of the money owed but the Administrators/Government knew better. This region was never going to support the Administrators or Anglo auditors. Full Stop.
Whoever heard of acceptable Liquidity Ratios before Sean Quinn was brought to task over them?
I'm not here to debate. I don't expect people from outside the Cavan/Fermanagh/Leitrim/Monaghan area to understand my opinions but it is an opinion that is prevalent up here and all the RTE/Government spin will not change that.
My own mother and her two sisters were made redundant over the whole mess. But we all know who we blame.
Best of luck to Sean Quinn in his next move.

Well said. How many ida jobs in Cavan over the course of the Celtic tiger. Zero. Before that zero. Quinn was in this region, his home, creating jobs when no f**ker in Dublin or elsewhere did anything for this region. He never sent jobs abroad even though he could have saved serious money. He was not a flashy man, pretty down to earth actually. Most of Ye don't understand the loyalty as boojangles says. I look forward to 12 months time when Sean Quinn will be back making more jobs while fg/ff policies force more people to emigrate

Yes, he was a great man for the border region. He created hundreds of jobs (and many more spin off jobs I assume) and everyone would acknoledge that I'm sure.
But then he took some massive gambles, lost spectacularly and is now trying to weasel his way out of it by dumping HIS huge debts on US (the taxpayers). Why the f*ck should I be punished for Sean Quinn's mistakes!!?
It's the same question as has been asked re Seanie Fitz, Fingleton etc

Hold on a second.  The reason that you, the taxpayer, have been left to foot the bill for Sean Quinn's business mistakes has nothing to do with any decision that Sean Quinn ever took.  The fault for that lies solely with Lenihan and Co when they decided that you, the taxpayer, should take responsibility for the toxic debts of that blood sucking hole Anglo.  Sean Quinn didn't foist this one on you.

Exactly Franko. You seemed to have silenced a few.
2.8 Billion would be change in comparison to what his companies brought to the Border.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 12, 2011, 08:07:11 PM
The fact that greater wrongdoings took place - those being the bank guarantee and the criminal administration of Anglo - does not excuse what Seán Quinn has done. Of course it has taken a combination of events to leave us at this point, and even if Seán Quinn was acting completely honourably, the taxpayer would still be in a hole. However the issue here is not that the man is bankrupt - the issue is that all his assets were transferred out while he still held debts, the issue is that he is selectively choosing where to go bankrupt, and the issue is that his family will walk away with huge wealth, all of which should be the property of the state right now.


Brian Lenihan, Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen were all bigger criminals and worse traitors for what they did, certainly. But that doesn't excuse Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on November 12, 2011, 08:26:25 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 12, 2011, 08:07:11 PM
The fact that greater wrongdoings took place - those being the bank guarantee and the criminal administration of Anglo - does not excuse what Seán Quinn has done. Of course it has taken a combination of events to leave us at this point, and even if Seán Quinn was acting completely honourably, the taxpayer would still be in a hole. However the issue here is not that the man is bankrupt - the issue is that all his assets were transferred out while he still held debts, the issue is that he is selectively choosing where to go bankrupt, and the issue is that his family will walk away with huge wealth, all of which should be the property of the state right now.


Brian Lenihan, Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen were all bigger criminals and worse traitors for what they did, certainly. But that doesn't excuse Quinn.

Sorry, if he turned over everything he and his family have it will never be the property of the 'state' - it will be the property of Franco-German banks that are probably going to collapse in the long run anyway.

Sean made a huge mistake and must pay. I don't think anyone is completely exonerating the man.

But what would you have him do? Go bankrupt in the south and pick off the (relatively) small change so it can be thrown into a black hole never to be made use of? Or go bankrupt in the north and get him back to work - maybe giving 100 jobs back to the country?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 12, 2011, 08:49:45 PM
C'mon Lone Shark. What would you do if you were in SQ's shoes? He is an honourable man. He has been very loyal to the folk of Fermanagh/Cavan, even Dublin for Christ's sake and always played by the book. His life and livelihood was ripped from under his feet because of 'liquidity' and loan issues but if he'd have been allowed a number of month's grace to sort this out, he would have done.

That man and his family owe the Irish state f**k all, they owed him alot more a couple of years ago when this all kicked off and look where it got them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2011, 08:56:09 PM
Quote from: boojangles on November 12, 2011, 06:28:31 PM
.

Exactly Franko. You seemed to have silenced a few.
2.8 Billion would be change in comparison to what his companies brought to the Border.
[/quote]

Would the border counties not do the honourable and pony up the 2.8bn  ;)

i think there are 2 issues. The border cos have been shafted since the foundation of the state. Sean quinn is a border hero but also a chancer. No uaisleacht.

In a real republic the bcs would get economic attention. and everyone else wouldn^t have to pay the price of failure.

BTW if SQ had invested in Anglo bonds rather than equity he would still be in business. Who advised him? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on November 12, 2011, 09:11:07 PM
I think folks need to get real about who Sean Quinn is withholding money from.

If some people on here had their way anything he had left would be on its way to criminal bondholers in Brussels/Berlin/Paris i.e. A BLACK HOLE.

If you think the remnents of his fortune would go towards hospitals, schools and infrastructure you would be sadly mistaken.

If yous are pissed off at 2.8bn (quite rightly) go march on the dail and ask why the f**k unsecured senior bondholders are getting paid. Theres an elephant in the room here and they will be delighted having the spotlight on SQ.

Yous have 2 choices - bleed him dry to feed rich foreign scumbags and get NOTHING or give the b**tard (if you will) a chance to get back to something entrepreneurial.

What is the pragmatic course of action here?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Agent Orange on November 14, 2011, 12:25:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2011, 08:56:09 PM
BTW if SQ had invested in Anglo bonds rather than equity he would still be in business. Who advised him?

Did he not lose €2.5bn in Anglo?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 12:52:13 PM
The issue of who advised him/ them is a major issue. It seems Anglo were the only advisors (Despite Anglo being legally required to provide SQ and the Children with independent legal advise) at the time which is a one of the reasons for the values being disputed. Anglo even went as far as trying to get the Quinns to sign rectrospective documents until the Quinns refused!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 12:53:26 PM
Quote from: Agent Orange on November 14, 2011, 12:25:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 12, 2011, 08:56:09 PM
BTW if SQ had invested in Anglo bonds rather than equity he would still be in business. Who advised him?

Did he not lose €2.5bn in Anglo?

He did but nobody holding senior Anglo bonds lost a cent. SQ bought Anglo shares and they are worth zero but senior Anglo bonds are worth 100 cent on the euro. If he had bought the bonds he would still be flying.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on November 14, 2011, 01:06:47 PM
QuoteHe is an honourable man. He has been very loyal to the folk of Fermanagh/Cavan, even Dublin for Christ's sake and always played by the book

What book would that be then?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 14, 2011, 01:15:10 PM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on November 12, 2011, 09:11:07 PM
I think folks need to get real about who Sean Quinn is withholding money from.

If some people on here had their way anything he had left would be on its way to criminal bondholers in Brussels/Berlin/Paris i.e. A BLACK HOLE.

If you think the remnents of his fortune would go towards hospitals, schools and infrastructure you would be sadly mistaken.

If yous are pissed off at 2.8bn (quite rightly) go march on the dail and ask why the f**k unsecured senior bondholders are getting paid. Theres an elephant in the room here and they will be delighted having the spotlight on SQ.

Yous have 2 choices - bleed him dry to feed rich foreign scumbags and get NOTHING or give the b**tard (if you will) a chance to get back to something entrepreneurial.

What is the pragmatic course of action here?


That would all be a fine argument except that we're going to fill the hole, no matter how big it gets. I agree that we shouldn't, but our elected representatives have decided that we should. So every penny that SQ took out of his business to give to his family will have to be made up. It's very easy to say that the number is so big, this will make no difference, but it's not - the number is big, but not infinitely big. And like it or not, we're paying every cent.

It's not an either/or situation. The bondholders will be paid either way, regardless of the gross unfairness of that situation. All this means is that we pay them more than we would otherwise have had to if Quinn hadn't looted his companies before going bankrupt.

Quote from: sammymaguire on November 12, 2011, 08:49:45 PM
C'mon Lone Shark. What would you do if you were in SQ's shoes? He is an honourable man. He has been very loyal to the folk of Fermanagh/Cavan, even Dublin for Christ's sake and always played by the book. His life and livelihood was ripped from under his feet because of 'liquidity' and loan issues but if he'd have been allowed a number of month's grace to sort this out, he would have done.

That man and his family owe the Irish state f**k all, they owed him alot more a couple of years ago when this all kicked off and look where it got them.

Arguing that others would have acted the same as SQ if in his shoes is not the point. That's an ethical debate regarding how many people would do the wrong thing if they knew they'd get away with it. What I would or wouldn't do is hardly relevant. The fact is that just because he got away with it doesn't make it right.

And explain to me how he would have found 2.8bn if given "a few months grace"?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on November 14, 2011, 01:16:56 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 12:52:13 PM
The issue of who advised him/ them is a major issue. It seems Anglo were the only advisors (Despite Anglo being legally required to provide SQ and the Children with independent legal advise) at the time which is a one of the reasons for the values being disputed. Anglo even went as far as trying to get the Quinns to sign rectrospective documents until the Quinns refused!!

When Sean Quinn entered the Contract for Difference I thought Anglo didn't know about it. My understanding is that he would use a CFD house, normally in London or New York, for the transaction and one of the advantages of CFS is that no one knew who was behind it. i.e. the shares were held by the CFD house and Quinn's name wouldn't appear.

Are you saying he actually used Anglo advisors while creating the transaction?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 01:25:37 PM
Quote from: Declan on November 14, 2011, 01:06:47 PM
QuoteHe is an honourable man. He has been very loyal to the folk of Fermanagh/Cavan, even Dublin for Christ's sake and always played by the book

What book would that be then?

Paying his taxes to the Irish Exchequer and not moving all and sundry to China et al
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 01:32:22 PM

Quote from: sammymaguire on November 12, 2011, 08:49:45 PM
C'mon Lone Shark. What would you do if you were in SQ's shoes? He is an honourable man. He has been very loyal to the folk of Fermanagh/Cavan, even Dublin for Christ's sake and always played by the book. His life and livelihood was ripped from under his feet because of 'liquidity' and loan issues but if he'd have been allowed a number of month's grace to sort this out, he would have done.

That man and his family owe the Irish state f**k all, they owed him alot more a couple of years ago when this all kicked off and look where it got them.

Arguing that others would have acted the same as SQ if in his shoes is not the point. That's an ethical debate regarding how many people would do the wrong thing if they knew they'd get away with it. What I would or wouldn't do is hardly relevant. The fact is that just because he got away with it doesn't make it right.

And explain to me how he would have found 2.8bn if given "a few months grace"?
[/quote]

He is right to do what he is doing. He was not allowed to deal with his mistake in the right manner which would have kept all parties happy, and I do recall him going on the TV admitting he made a major fcuk up, he never tried to hide that but the control of sorting it out was taken away from him so that is why I have no sympathy for the fuckwits chasing after his empire.

Is this the mafia now? Give us our money NOW or it will triple? It was figuratively speaking, QIL was a cash rich business, the Group would have formulated a business plan to deal with the issues at hand over a number of months and dealt with them in the correct fashion.

The powers that be made a complete bollocks of addressing this is like they do with most things in the Republic.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on November 14, 2011, 01:48:43 PM
QuotePaying his taxes to the Irish Exchequer and not moving all and sundry to China et al

And yet he chooses to go bankrupt in a different jurisdiction. He ran his insurance companies improperly for years got caught and whinged and as a result those jobs are in danger. He gambled recklessly on Anglo and left us taxpayers with a massive bill and he's still trying to ride us.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 01:58:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 14, 2011, 01:16:56 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 12:52:13 PM
The issue of who advised him/ them is a major issue. It seems Anglo were the only advisors (Despite Anglo being legally required to provide SQ and the Children with independent legal advise) at the time which is a one of the reasons for the values being disputed. Anglo even went as far as trying to get the Quinns to sign rectrospective documents until the Quinns refused!!

When Sean Quinn entered the Contract for Difference I thought Anglo didn't know about it. My understanding is that he would use a CFD house, normally in London or New York, for the transaction and one of the advantages of CFS is that no one knew who was behind it. i.e. the shares were held by the CFD house and Quinn's name wouldn't appear.

Are you saying he actually used Anglo advisors while creating the transaction?

My gathering is that the CFD's were built up using his own money, then with the drop in share price he made it known to Anglo that he wasn't in a position to meet them. At this point Anglo then lent SQ money under which the guarantees were attached. But Anglo provided no legal advise on these loans and/or guarantees, which is part of the case the Quinns are disputing.

Again this is from my limited grasp of the cases the Quinns are making so could be wrong as it's the CFD's area where it starts to get confusing.

Just wondering if anyone else can answer something for me. Is there any other benefit for the State to want to Bankrupt SQ in the South other than preventing him to go into business again for 12 years? Is there any financial reasons why they would be down money if it happens in the North?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 02:03:56 PM
Quote from: Declan on November 14, 2011, 01:48:43 PM
QuotePaying his taxes to the Irish Exchequer and not moving all and sundry to China et al

And yet he chooses to go bankrupt in a different jurisdiction. He ran his insurance companies improperly for years got caught and whinged and as a result those jobs are in danger. He gambled recklessly on Anglo and left us taxpayers with a massive bill and he's still trying to ride us.

The Irish government were happy enough to reap the benefits of his successful gambles to the tune of over 1Billion in Direct taxes ( I won't even go into the knock on effects on employment, development etc). Then when he made a bad bet they weren't prepared to work with him and decided they knew the best course of action and have well and truely fecked it up. No doubt had he been based in Dublin they might have made a bit more effort to work with him but they don't seem to worried about the border area down there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on November 14, 2011, 02:26:40 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 02:03:56 PM
The Irish government were happy enough to reap the benefits of his successful gambles to the tune of over 1Billion in Direct taxes ( I won't even go into the knock on effects on employment, development etc). Then when he made a bad bet they weren't prepared to work with him and decided they knew the best course of action and have well and truely fecked it up. No doubt had he been based in Dublin they might have made a bit more effort to work with him but they don't seem to worried about the border area down there.

In what possible way could they have worked with him? Given him a thousand years to pay it off? The gap between what he borrowed and what he could have repaid is astronomical.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 02:48:27 PM
They had a viable proposal put forward that had been audited  by PWC and deemed workable by them to recover most of the money. Rather than what you have now where there is a huge gaping hole. Even if it only brought in half it would be an improvement.   
And that would be in addition to keeping employment going and reducing the likelyhood of redundancies.

Instead you have the laughable situation of the Taoiseach chasing previous Quinn customers begging them to come back and deal with Anglo for the good of the country!! 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 03:45:33 PM
Quote from: deiseach on November 14, 2011, 02:26:40 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 02:03:56 PM
The Irish government were happy enough to reap the benefits of his successful gambles to the tune of over 1Billion in Direct taxes ( I won't even go into the knock on effects on employment, development etc). Then when he made a bad bet they weren't prepared to work with him and decided they knew the best course of action and have well and truely fecked it up. No doubt had he been based in Dublin they might have made a bit more effort to work with him but they don't seem to worried about the border area down there.

In what possible way could they have worked with him? Given him a thousand years to pay it off? The gap between what he borrowed and what he could have repaid is astronomical.

was he not a billionaire, worth an astronomical amount of money before things went so badly wrong on him?  :P did that take a thousand years?? Stupid thing to say.

Declan, I think it is the elected representatives of the Republic of Ireland who have badly let their citizens down, and are taking them for a ride... Why dont you come back to SQ and his wrongdoings when you have sorted out that lot in the Dail. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 03:46:19 PM
There is no point in blaming the government. The country is run by the Troika and SQ couldn't convince them. WTF was he doing laying a bet that brought down the whole house anyway ? 

The Sliabh Russell operation  lost 45m last year. The insurer was lossmaking. How much money has the concrete and glass been making in the depression ?     
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 03:53:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 03:46:19 PM
There is no point in blaming the government. The country is run by the Troika and SQ couldn't convince them. WTF was he doing laying a bet that brought down the whole house anyway ? 

The Sliabh Russell operation  lost 45m last year. The insurer was lossmaking. How much money has the concrete and glass been making in the depression ?   

€20m per month PROFIT in 2008. Liberty Mutual not going to make any money from it then?

I am surprised that anything is left at all considering the buthcery into the businesses that he built up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 14, 2011, 03:59:25 PM
It was a different world in 2008.

And that's if you trust the accounts from back then - which very few people do.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 04:08:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 03:46:19 PM
There is no point in blaming the government. The country is run by the Troika and SQ couldn't convince them. WTF was he doing laying a bet that brought down the whole house anyway ? 

The Sliabh Russell operation  lost 45m last year. The insurer was lossmaking. How much money has the concrete and glass been making in the depression ?   

People need to realise what they read in the paper is what Anglo/ the State want you to hear. The Slieve Russell lost 45M because of write down of Anglo loans. It made an operating profit of over one million last year. But that fact wouldn't fit in with the "Bad businessman" view that Anglo are trying so desperately to paint of Sean Quinn.

You also seem to forget that Sean Quinn made a bet based on fraudlent figures provided by Anglo. Another fact that Anglo/ The state like to leave in the background!!

To add another idea of just what is going on up in the group now. Allegedly they paid the 15 year Head of IT of last week to add to the other senior managers that they have paid huge money to make room for more jobs for the boys!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on November 14, 2011, 04:16:02 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 03:53:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 03:46:19 PM
There is no point in blaming the government. The country is run by the Troika and SQ couldn't convince them. WTF was he doing laying a bet that brought down the whole house anyway ? 

The Sliabh Russell operation  lost 45m last year. The insurer was lossmaking. How much money has the concrete and glass been making in the depression ?   

€20m per month PROFIT in 2008. Liberty Mutual not going to make any money from it then?

I am surprised that anything is left at all considering the buthcery into the businesses that he fucked built up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 04:32:10 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 03:53:17 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 03:46:19 PM
There is no point in blaming the government. The country is run by the Troika and SQ couldn't convince them. WTF was he doing laying a bet that brought down the whole house anyway ? 

The Sliabh Russell operation  lost 45m last year. The insurer was lossmaking. How much money has the concrete and glass been making in the depression ?   

€20m per month PROFIT in 2008. Liberty Mutual not going to make any money from it then?

I am surprised that anything is left at all considering the buthcery into the businesses that he built up.

Sammy

You have numbers from 2008 The UK claims ratio went through the roof in 2009. Quinn didn't understand insurance. He thought sell em cheap pile em high was a goer. The model collapsed once recession hit dear old Blighty.

http://www.tca.ie/images/uploaded/documents/2011%20Conference%20-%20Colm%20McCarthy%20slides.pdf

slides 3-5 explain what happened
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 05:25:33 PM
Has Quinn Insurance closed down? not to my knowledge, so he must have been doing something right  ??? so your nice little slideshow is pretty irrelevant it is not? all these academics know better than those who are actually at the coal face.  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 05:49:44 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 05:25:33 PM
Has Quinn Insurance closed down? not to my knowledge, so he must have been doing something right  ??? so your nice little slideshow is pretty irrelevant it is not? all these academics know better than those who are actually at the coal face.  ::)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0913/insurance-business.html

A bill published today proposes a new levy of up to 2% on non-life insurance policies.

Court order on Quinn Insurance deal details
Finance Minister Michael Noonan has published a bill which proposes a new levy of up to 2% on non-life insurance policies.

This is to help fund the Insurance Compensation Fund (ICF), which exists to protect insurance policyholders in the event that an insurer cannot meet its liabilities. Health insurance is not covered by the levy.

The administrators of Quinn Insurance Ltd will need to call upon the fund due to losses in the business. It is estimated that they will need €320m in the final quarter of this year, but there is only €40m in the fund at the moment. Funding will also be needed for the coming years.


Sammy, a stor.  Everyone in the country is paying €600 to SQ via Anglo and everyone with a non life insurance policy is paying 2% of premiums.
In 2009 Quinn Insurance recorded losses of €905m, while last year its estimated losses were €160m. So that 's a nice tidy 4 billion give or take he lost. 

TBH I didn't realise how bad it was
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cde on November 14, 2011, 06:18:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 04:08:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 03:46:19 PM
There is no point in blaming the government. The country is run by the Troika and SQ couldn't convince them. WTF was he doing laying a bet that brought down the whole house anyway ? 

The Sliabh Russell operation  lost 45m last year. The insurer was lossmaking. How much money has the concrete and glass been making in the depression ?   

People need to realise what they read in the paper is what Anglo/ the State want you to hear. The Slieve Russell lost 45M because of write down of Anglo loans. It made an operating profit of over one million last year. But that fact wouldn't fit in with the "Bad businessman" view that Anglo are trying so desperately to paint of Sean Quinn.

You also seem to forget that Sean Quinn made a bet based on fraudlent figures provided by Anglo. Another fact that Anglo/ The state like to leave in the background!!

To add another idea of just what is going on up in the group now. Allegedly they paid the 15 year Head of IT of last week to add to the other senior managers that they have paid huge money to make room for more jobs for the boys!!

according to the Irish Times   http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/1112/1224307462172.html  accounts filed for the Slieve Russell hotel, which he founded, show it incurred a loss of €45.4 million in 2009, after the company took an impairment charge of €43.3 million on fixed assets.

This is still a loss of over 2m  not a profit of 1m
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 06:27:29 PM
Last year. 2010
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 06:31:09 PM
Should we burn him at the stake? and his wife too for being married to him? Is he ten times worse than the many Property Developers who owe the banks millions through NAMA but have all their millions in their wives names?

I am still of the opinion, that yes, he completely fucked up, massively, but if given the time to address it, the Quinn Group would have got themselves out of the mess they got themselves in to.

That opportunity was taken away from them much too quickly for the liking of hundreds of people in the border region of Fermanagh / Cavan / Leitrim etc...

Not much point going on about the what ifs and buts etc, whats done is done now and the quicker they get Q2 up and running the better imo
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on November 14, 2011, 07:02:18 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 01:58:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 14, 2011, 01:16:56 PM
When Sean Quinn entered the Contract for Difference I thought Anglo didn't know about it. My understanding is that he would use a CFD house, normally in London or New York, for the transaction and one of the advantages of CFS is that no one knew who was behind it. i.e. the shares were held by the CFD house and Quinn's name wouldn't appear.

Are you saying he actually used Anglo advisors while creating the transaction?

My gathering is that the CFD's were built up using his own money, then with the drop in share price he made it known to Anglo that he wasn't in a position to meet them. At this point Anglo then lent SQ money under which the guarantees were attached. But Anglo provided no legal advise on these loans and/or guarantees, which is part of the case the Quinns are disputing.

Again this is from my limited grasp of the cases the Quinns are making so could be wrong as it's the CFD's area where it starts to get confusing.

Just wondering if anyone else can answer something for me. Is there any other benefit for the State to want to Bankrupt SQ in the South other than preventing him to go into business again for 12 years? Is there any financial reasons why they would be down money if it happens in the North?

Typically the CFD would be a bet whereby, for example, 10% is paid up front. If the bet goes the wrong way you have to either get out or keep shoveling in money so the CFD house always has the other 90% of the original transaction (the value of 90% of  the shares + what ever you have had to shovel into them).

If what you say is true, that Anglo lent him money to buy out the CFD then that would be completely illegal. A bank cannot lend for the purposes of purchasing shares in itself. This is the same as the Maple 10 issue.

I doubt any advisors would ever admit to giving such advice.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 07:11:49 PM
As far as I gather that's it Muppet. The basis of the Quinns claim is that Anglo lent the money to support it's own share price. Hence them now claiming the loans to be illegal.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on November 14, 2011, 07:43:17 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 03:45:33 PM
Quote from: deiseach on November 14, 2011, 02:26:40 PM

In what possible way could they have worked with him? Given him a thousand years to pay it off? The gap between what he borrowed and what he could have repaid is astronomical.

was he not a billionaire, worth an astronomical amount of money before things went so badly wrong on him?  :P did that take a thousand years?? Stupid thing to say.


He was a billionaire on paper. So was Bernie Madoff.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 14, 2011, 08:54:03 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 06:31:09 PM
Should we burn him at the stake? and his wife too for being married to him? Is he ten times worse than the many Property Developers who owe the banks millions through NAMA but have all their millions in their wives names?

I am still of the opinion, that yes, he completely fucked up, massively, but if given the time to address it, the Quinn Group would have got themselves out of the mess they got themselves in to.

That opportunity was taken away from them much too quickly for the liking of hundreds of people in the border region of Fermanagh / Cavan / Leitrim etc...

Not much point going on about the what ifs and buts etc, whats done is done now and the quicker they get Q2 up and running the better imo

Is he any worse than Johnny Ronan and the boys? No. Is he any better? No.


The man made a killing in construction related businesses during the biggest property boom the world has ever seen, and lost his shirt and half the wardrobe of the nation when he dabbled in financials. I'm sorry but there is no way I'd be investing in a man like that to make a second fortune.

And while his loyalty to the border counties has of course ensured loyalty from locals in return, you'll excuse the rest of us for not being overly enamoured with the prospect of paying fortunes in extra taxes just to fill in holes that are all the bigger because of the absence of whole companies that were swapped in exchange for a laptop.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 14, 2011, 09:07:07 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 14, 2011, 08:54:03 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 06:31:09 PM
Should we burn him at the stake? and his wife too for being married to him? Is he ten times worse than the many Property Developers who owe the banks millions through NAMA but have all their millions in their wives names?

I am still of the opinion, that yes, he completely fucked up, massively, but if given the time to address it, the Quinn Group would have got themselves out of the mess they got themselves in to.

That opportunity was taken away from them much too quickly for the liking of hundreds of people in the border region of Fermanagh / Cavan / Leitrim etc...

Not much point going on about the what ifs and buts etc, whats done is done now and the quicker they get Q2 up and running the better imo

Is he any worse than Johnny Ronan and the boys? No. Is he any better? No.


The man made a killing in construction related businesses during the biggest property boom the world has ever seen, and lost his shirt and half the wardrobe of the nation when he dabbled in financials. I'm sorry but there is no way I'd be investing in a man like that to make a second fortune.

And while his loyalty to the border counties has of course ensured loyalty from locals in return, you'll excuse the rest of us for not being overly enamoured with the prospect of paying fortunes in extra taxes just to fill in holes that are all the bigger because of the absence of whole companies that were swapped in exchange for a laptop.

A load of bollox. Quinn was making money and jobs long before any boom. He put money in families pockets when useless c***ts in Dublin wouldn't even fix a pothole for us (when he took over the kilmore he had to tar the road to Cavan himself). Now Ireland is full of perfect people like loan shark that must have created loads of jobs (1000's) and never made an error. The same boys that paint every fallen business man as the villain. The reason Quinn owes the tax payer is because the Irish government gave a blanket guaranty to banks. Who saved all the insurance jobs in cork when bupa left - the man who knows nothing about insurance, that's who. If anyone could have got this money back it was Quinn but the powers that be didn't want to know and now they get nothing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 14, 2011, 09:21:41 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 14, 2011, 09:07:07 PM
Quinn was making money and jobs long before any boom. He put money in families pockets when useless c***ts in Dublin wouldn't even fix a pothole for us (when he took over the kilmore he had to tar the road to Cavan himself). 

Fine. We get it. Border people think he's a saint. He looked after the border. It's all about the border. How about the insurance levy is only placed on people from the border then? Or a targeted property tax on people from the border areas? That seems like a fair compromise?


Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 14, 2011, 09:07:07 PM
Now Ireland is full of perfect people like loan shark that must have created loads of jobs (1000's) and never made an error. The same boys that paint every fallen business man as the villain. 

Play the ball, not the man. And I don't think of every fallen business man as the villain, I'm self employed and well aware of how hard it is to make ends meet out there. I don't blame him for failing - I blame him for looting the place on the way out at our expense. That's the point here, which all ye defenders of him keep skipping over, instead creating the straw man argument about picking on a man while he's down. 

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 14, 2011, 09:07:07 PM
The reason Quinn owes the tax payer is because the Irish government gave a blanket guaranty to banks. 

As we've said a thousand times, of course he's not as bad as the Fianna Fáil guys who allowed all this to happen, and who I would happily spit on if they were walking down the street. That's not the point. We are saying Quinn is a thief and a looter. Pointing out that Bertie and the Brians left the door open and invited everyone in to loot the state doesn't make him any less so.


Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 14, 2011, 09:07:07 PM
The reason Quinn owes the tax payer is because the Irish government gave a blanket guaranty to banks. Who saved all the insurance jobs in cork when bupa left - the man who knows nothing about insurance, that's who. If anyone could have got this money back it was Quinn but the powers that be didn't want to know and now they get nothing.

The jobs weren't saved and aren't saved. Quinn merely gave them the illusion of being saved but in actual fact it was a stay of execution, underwritten by his fundamental lack of understanding of the insurance market. I don't know the first thing about Quinn Glass or Quinn Cement, but I do know the insurance market very well and his company was trading recklessly from the start. I will grant you I don't put this one down to malevolence, merely incompetence - however it hardly fills me with confidence that he should be given a second chance at our collective expense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 09:28:36 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 14, 2011, 08:54:03 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 06:31:09 PM
Should we burn him at the stake? and his wife too for being married to him? Is he ten times worse than the many Property Developers who owe the banks millions through NAMA but have all their millions in their wives names?

I am still of the opinion, that yes, he completely fucked up, massively, but if given the time to address it, the Quinn Group would have got themselves out of the mess they got themselves in to.

That opportunity was taken away from them much too quickly for the liking of hundreds of people in the border region of Fermanagh / Cavan / Leitrim etc...

Not much point going on about the what ifs and buts etc, whats done is done now and the quicker they get Q2 up and running the better imo

Is he any worse than Johnny Ronan and the boys? No. Is he any better? No.


The man made a killing in construction related businesses during the biggest property boom the world has ever seen, and lost his shirt and half the wardrobe of the nation when he dabbled in financials. I'm sorry but there is no way I'd be investing in a man like that to make a second fortune.

And while his loyalty to the border counties has of course ensured loyalty from locals in return, you'll excuse the rest of us for not being overly enamoured with the prospect of paying fortunes in extra taxes just to fill in holes that are all the bigger because of the absence of whole companies that were swapped in exchange for a laptop.

He was far from being just a property developer. He had glass, hotels, packaging, renewable energies, casios to name a few. So trying to paint him as a developer that got lucky is nonsense.
He was hardly without success in the insurance side either. He developed a system in settling claims  that left QIL with the lowest cost per claim figures in the Market. A system most other insurers are implementating now in varying degrees.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 09:31:09 PM
Quinn might have been very flaithiulach with money in the border area when he had it but he socialised all his losses.
And that is not on. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on November 14, 2011, 09:36:47 PM
Quinn and Lenihan have a lot in common in that they were both taken in by Anglo. However, they are both at fault. Lenihan could have made a limited guarantee that would have kept the ATMs functioning. Quinn could have invested in Anglo but only to the extent that if he lost out that he would not be putting the economic sucess of the Cavan/Fermanagh area (that he did so much to build) at risk. He was too greedy and bet the lot.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 09:40:38 PM
Are you from Dublin Lone Shark? Should the banks have been bailed out Lone Shark?

Are any of the Heads of the Banks in Ireland been held accountable by anyone for all their wreckless and crazy lending? If Quinn Group, not the man himself weren't experts in Insurance... A business that was amazingly profitable, then what were the experts at Finance doing over the last ten years? And those in power?? All sipping champagne at the races basking in the sunshine thinking this would simply never end?

And how would you judge these people in comparison to SQ? They all fucked up and left Mr and Mrs Joe Soap and their kids and grand kids clean up the mess afterwards cos their eye went completely off the ball.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 09:49:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 09:31:09 PM
Quinn might have been very flaithiulach with money in the border area when he had it but he socialised all his losses.
And that is not on.

what people seem to be missing here is that Quinns fight is with Anglo. They can rightly have huge issues with the advise and legality of the loans issued. Therefore just because the state decided to take on Anglo's losses doesn't mean the Quinns should have to walk away if they rightfully feel Anglo acted unjustly. Would you walk away from the amounts talked about if you felt you had a case? Would anyone?
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 14, 2011, 10:59:15 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 09:28:36 PM
He was far from being just a property developer. He had glass, hotels, packaging, renewable energies, casios to name a few. So trying to paint him as a developer that got lucky is nonsense.
He was hardly without success in the insurance side either. He developed a system in settling claims  that left QIL with the lowest cost per claim figures in the Market. A system most other insurers are implementating now in varying degrees.

That there is more to him I don't doubt, and of course the man obviously had plenty of expertise or he wouldn't have got where he did. However I would say that the hotel, Casino, Glass and Cement businesses were highly based around the boom. I don't know enough about the packaging and renewable sides to say if they've been a success or otherwise. My point is that he's not a surefire bet to succeed second time around.

Just because he may have done some things right in the insurance business doesn't mean he knew what he was doing though. His car insurance business was built around playing it like Ryanair, screwing people who don't dot the i's and cross the t's perfectly. In the health sector he was quoting utterly unsustainable premium prices that were always going to be a problem as soon as your client base got older. If it didn't fail last year or this, it would have done in the next decade because it simply wasn't calculated correctly. Any of the actuarial community will tell you that. (I did that course in college and remain in contact with many people who are very well connected in that sector. I was warned that it was a matter of when QI failed rather than if from the very start - they didn't have a clue in there).

Quote from: sammymaguire on November 14, 2011, 09:40:38 PM
Are you from Dublin Lone Shark? Should the banks have been bailed out Lone Shark?

Are any of the Heads of the Banks in Ireland been held accountable by anyone for all their wreckless and crazy lending? If Quinn Group, not the man himself weren't experts in Insurance... A business that was amazingly profitable, then what were the experts at Finance doing over the last ten years? And those in power?? All sipping champagne at the races basking in the sunshine thinking this would simply never end?

And how would you judge these people in comparison to SQ? They all fucked up and left Mr and Mrs Joe Soap and their kids and grand kids clean up the mess afterwards cos their eye went completely off the ball.

I am not from Dublin, and my view of the banks is that the state should have stuck to the old deposit limits, enforced them,  and looked the ECB in the eye and ensured that protection came in for AIB and BOI. Anglo and Irish Nationwide should have been let go to the wall, and when the run kicked in, the ECB would have stepped in. If they wanted to protect bondholders, that's up to them.

Can we please stop with the straw man argument about how others have got away with greater harm? That's neither here nor there. Of course Bertie Ahern should be hanging from a gallows, the banking sector should be in jail and the developers should all be living side by side in a ghost estate in Roscommon, living off a meagre wage until they die of frostbite in one of the shanty towns they created. It's a huge injustice that none of these things have happened.

None of this makes it okay that Seán Quinn looted his companies. That is the point here. Seán Quinn is a thief and a dishonourable man. That he has plenty of company does not change this. Stop comparing him to others. It's not about comparison.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 14, 2011, 11:07:25 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 09:49:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 09:31:09 PM
Quinn might have been very flaithiulach with money in the border area when he had it but he socialised all his losses.
And that is not on.

what people seem to be missing here is that Quinns fight is with Anglo. They can rightly have huge issues with the advise and legality of the loans issued. Therefore just because the state decided to take on Anglo's losses doesn't mean the Quinns should have to walk away if they rightfully feel Anglo acted unjustly. Would you walk away from the amounts talked about if you felt you had a case? Would anyone?


Firstly, he didn't have to bet the whole farm. Quinn defenders seem to be arguing here that on the one hand he should be let keep loads of ill gotten gains because he'll rise again and bring a new age of prosperity to greater Belturbet, but that on the other hand the poor diddums was too clueless to realise what he was doing when he had the biggest bet ever struck in the history of mankind.

Secondly, of course he should be allowed contest it in the courts. If he did that, and the courts found in his favour and he discharged whatever debts he had left, then he's free to do whatever he wants with his remaining assets. However as ye all well know, that's not what he's doing. He's shoved all his money away to the family, then claiming that he has nothing and that it doesn't matter a schyte if the courts find in Anglo's favour.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 11:19:56 PM
He transfered assets to prevent Anglo taking them over before the Quinn court cases are heard next year. He was protecting himself from Anglo grasping further assests that he doesn't believe they have a say over due to conditions of the loans. It was self preservation surely, and after all the actions Anglo have taken he is well within his rights to do so.
Why do you maintain that Anglo should be given control of these assets when Their ownership is being challanged? Surely ownership should stay with the Quinns until the cases are heard? Hopefully that is what will happen now. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: CiKe on November 14, 2011, 11:27:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 09:49:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 14, 2011, 09:31:09 PM
Quinn might have been very flaithiulach with money in the border area when he had it but he socialised all his losses.
And that is not on.

what people seem to be missing here is that Quinns fight is with Anglo. They can rightly have huge issues with the advise and legality of the loans issued. Therefore just because the state decided to take on Anglo's losses doesn't mean the Quinns should have to walk away if they rightfully feel Anglo acted unjustly. Would you walk away from the amounts talked about if you felt you had a case? Would anyone?



Who advised Quinn over the CFD's? Are you suggesting he took legal advise from Anglo? Would he not have employed his own legal team in negotiations? I wouldn't think it takes a rocket science to figure that something is not quite right if the banks share price is going down the tubes and they lend you money to support it. Even if his advisors did not say something, it doesn't say much for his own judgement.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 14, 2011, 11:38:25 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 11:19:56 PM
He transfered assets to prevent Anglo taking them over before the Quinn court cases are heard next year. He was protecting himself from Anglo grasping further assests that he doesn't believe they have a say over due to conditions of the loans. It was self preservation surely, and after all the actions Anglo have taken he is well within his rights to do so.
Why do you maintain that Anglo should be given control of these assets when Their ownership is being challanged? Surely ownership should stay with the Quinns until the cases are heard? Hopefully that is what will happen now.

So in other words, the assets will be transferred back if he loses the case in the courts and he's found to be in the wrong?

I'll tell you what, if Seán Quinn comes out and makes a statement to that effect, I'll believe he's actually an honourable man. Until then he remains a thief and a looter. I won't hold my breath if you don't mind.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 11:40:21 PM
The problem seems to be that Anglo didn't give SQ legal advise when Entering into the loans at all which is part of the reason they are contesting them as Anglo would have been legally bound to provide.
No doubt that this is when SQ made a huge mistake, chasing a falling share price, the issue is that it was based on advise and funds by Anglo which has gone on to cost him his company, while they attempted to prop their share price.   But at this stage he believed Anglo were still on his side, which it became very clear they weren't.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 14, 2011, 11:40:37 PM
I expect loneshark if your business was in bother you would still keep all your assets in your name, including the family home, just in case the banks needed to sell them to get back what you owed. I think you would be wise to stop calling Quinn a thief and looter too.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 11:44:29 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 14, 2011, 11:38:25 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 14, 2011, 11:19:56 PM
He transfered assets to prevent Anglo taking them over before the Quinn court cases are heard next year. He was protecting himself from Anglo grasping further assests that he doesn't believe they have a say over due to conditions of the loans. It was self preservation surely, and after all the actions Anglo have taken he is well within his rights to do so.
Why do you maintain that Anglo should be given control of these assets when Their ownership is being challanged? Surely ownership should stay with the Quinns until the cases are heard? Hopefully that is what will happen now.

So in other words, the assets will be transferred back if he loses the case in the courts and he's found to be in the wrong?

I'll tell you what, if Seán Quinn comes out and makes a statement to that effect, I'll believe he's actually an honourable man. Until then he remains a thief and a looter. I won't hold my breath if you don't mind.



I don't think he'll have a say if they lose the cases.

I wouldn't be holding my breath either. I wouldn't think he would value your opinion enough to make a statement on anything.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 15, 2011, 12:30:32 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 14, 2011, 11:40:37 PM
I expect loneshark if your business was in bother you would still keep all your assets in your name, including the family home, just in case the banks needed to sell them to get back what you owed. I think you would be wise to stop calling Quinn a thief and looter too.

With all due respect, which is none whatsoever, f**k you. You don't know the first thing about me and if you did, you'd realise that I have paid my way on several occasions when I could have avoided it. I've lost bets for large sums, none of which were legally enforceable. I've paid up every one of them, including three grand to a company that didn't play fair with me and cancelled a bet I had with them when I caught them out. I still paid them when it was the other way around, because my name and my honour was at stake.

I've taken business ventures before, some of which have worked and some haven't. I've always only used money that I could afford to lose and I've always taken responsibility for my debts. I've acted conservatively when others would have gone further, but that's been my choice. I wouldn't risk assets I didn't want to lose like a family home - least of all on a bet. Which is exactly what happened here.

If you want to talk about me, feel free. Unlike a lot of people on this board, yourself included, my real life identity is well known and if Sean Quinn wants to come after me, he's welcome to do so. But don't make presumptions when you don't know the first thing about me.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 15, 2011, 07:45:42 AM
No harm Lone Shark if you don't challange someone when they are screwing you, it isn't honourable, it's stupid. If you want to pay your way regardless of what anyone does to you then that's fine. Personally I wouldn't want to be such a walk over. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 15, 2011, 08:48:06 AM
Seán Quinn is a thief and a dishonourable man - a Looter.

Lone Shark, you have lost it on this fella. Good luck to you and your argument. As for honour in business, in Ireland, who are you kidding there? You are full of shit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2011, 09:05:21 AM
It is strange we never hear anything from the trade unions who represent the workers in the Quinn group.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 15, 2011, 09:26:33 AM
They had employee committees. And they were in the papers often enough when Administration was going on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on November 15, 2011, 09:38:16 AM
4 or so pages on and I still havent seen one pragmatic reason why it would be a better deal for Ireland to have Sean Quinn declare bankruptcy in the south and shovel the rest of his remaining money into Anglo.

SQ got greedy, fucked up and lost his businesses, a reasonable punishment for him in itself.

Now, neither he nor his group took the decision to foist his losses on the taxpayer. That decision was taken for him by others.

Nevertheless, should the taxpayer stand to get 100 cent on every last remaining euro he made that is left with himself or his children, then fine, turn it all over to the taxpayer.

But the taxpayer would more likely see something like 0 cents on the euro should SQ play ball with Anglo/The Troika.

Lone Shark I think you told me a few pages back that it would still count as we have set out to fill this black hole of our debts eventually.

Well I don't believe for 1 second that our debts will ever be wholly paid - There will be major debt forgiveness long before that distant day simply because at some point before then a whole slew of market realities, political realities and point blank mathematical realities in Europe and across the Western world are going to kick in and force a major debt forgiveness justice across the board.

I think that the Quinn family piling the rest of their cash into a field and burning it would be a better return for the taxpayer than shovelling it into Anglo. At least we would get the heat off of it, and more importantly it would be removed from contributing to prolonging the huge injustice of servicing the external losses of bondholders.

So for that reason I would rather see the money kept in the hands of people who have decades of a track record and ability in creating enterprise in Ireland. Even if creating jobs is just a side effect of SQ's personal greed and ambition.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2011, 10:00:05 AM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on November 15, 2011, 09:38:16 AM
4 or so pages on and I still havent seen one pragmatic reason why it would be a better deal for Ireland to have Sean Quinn declare bankruptcy in the south and shovel the rest of his remaining money into Anglo.

SQ got greedy, fucked up and lost his businesses, a reasonable punishment for him in itself.

Now, neither he nor his group took the decision to foist his losses on the taxpayer. That decision was taken for him by others.

Nevertheless, should the taxpayer stand to get 100 cent on every last remaining euro he made that is left with himself or his children, then fine, turn it all over to the taxpayer.

But the taxpayer would more likely see something like 0 cents on the euro should SQ play ball with Anglo/The Troika.

Lone Shark I think you told me a few pages back that it would still count as we have set out to fill this black hole of our debts eventually.

Well I don't believe for 1 second that our debts will ever be wholly paid - There will be major debt forgiveness long before that distant day simply because at some point before then a whole slew of market realities, political realities and point blank mathematical realities in Europe and across the Western world are going to kick in and force a major debt forgiveness justice across the board.

I think that the Quinn family piling the rest of their cash into a field and burning it would be a better return for the taxpayer than shovelling it into Anglo. At least we would get the heat off of it, and more importantly it would be removed from contributing to prolonging the huge injustice of servicing the external losses of bondholders.

So for that reason I would rather see the money kept in the hands of people who have decades of a track record and ability in creating enterprise in Ireland. Even if creating jobs is just a side effect of SQ's personal greed and ambition.

I think that is the optimistic view. It could be a lot worse. Ireland could be kicked out of the Euro.
Why should Ireland have a higher standard of living than Slovakia ? That is what creditors may want to know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on November 15, 2011, 10:30:45 AM
These are more major issues for Ireland, Seafoid. Anything we've heard or read in the past 6 months would point to the Eurozone having to fracture in some way however. Default is not a question of choice for Ireland, it's inevitable IMO. We are locked out of the markets, have no growth and though the tap is running from the troika at the minute will it continue to do so as Italy, Spain and others get locked out of the bond markets themselves? They can print but how much and how bad will the inflation be? Also, if you listened to people like Constantin Gurdgiev you would believe that some of the biggest banks in the Eurozone have leveraged themselves 50 to 1 or more and that a fall in 'assets' of a few % will render/has rendered them insolvent. So whats the point of taxpayers funding the losses of institutions that are going to collapse anyway?

But these are wider questions.

In the meantime I just see a lot of people shouting for the wealth of a rich Irish family to be transferred to even richer bankers on the continent.

Going by the reaction I seen on politics.ie a lot of Irish people would cheer that as a result. A good deal for Anglo is now a good deal for the taxpayer. Crazy.

Stockholm Syndrome on a massive scale.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on November 15, 2011, 11:37:36 AM
QuoteI think that the Quinn family piling the rest of their cash into a field and burning it would be a better return for the taxpayer than shovelling it into Anglo. At least we would get the heat off of it, and more importantly it would be removed from contributing to prolonging the huge injustice of servicing the external losses of bondholders.


I have never heard such nonsense. You may or may not agree with the strategy of paying off bondholders, but it is something that should not be assessed only in itself but in the context in which it is taking place. But if Anglo does not recover its loans from those it lent money to, or as much as possible of these loans, then the taxpayer will have to put more capital in and that money will come from hospitals, schools and the like. This might be an injustice, Quinn paying back the money he borrowed to gamble on shares is not an injustice.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 15, 2011, 12:10:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 15, 2011, 07:45:42 AM
No harm Lone Shark if you don't challange someone when they are screwing you, it isn't honourable, it's stupid. If you want to pay your way regardless of what anyone does to you then that's fine. Personally I wouldn't want to be such a walk over.

I work in the gambling and journalism sectors. In both cases you're only as good as your word and if you are seen to twist the truth or weasel out of your commitments, you won't get very far. I'm happy with the way I do things, and it's up to you to live by your code. I'm delighted to say that the company that fecked me over has since fell into difficulty. Gotta love karma.

I only introduced this because you chose to make it personal, saying that I would do the same as Quinn has done. I just wanted to point out that I wouldn't, and haven't.

The issue here is not the politicians, or the developers, or even me. It's what SQ did. Any more straw men?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2011, 01:22:11 PM
Fitzpatrick is a real D4 style sleazebag but he is interesting on SQ

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0110/1224287157384.html

On September 11th, 2007, FitzPatrick and the then Anglo chief executive David Drumm met Seán Quinn and his associate Liam McCaffrey in the Ardboyne Hotel in Navan, Co Meath, so Quinn could tell them about his huge clandestine investment in the bank via "contracts for difference" (CFDs).
"David was more up to speed clearly about the activities of CFDs. He was bringing me because he always felt that Quinn regarded me as a superhuman, as a superhero. He wanted Quinn to see how disappointed I would be."

When FitzPatrick learned the size of the Quinn holding "I was physically shocked. I wasn't expecting that. I said: What! David said afterwards to me that he looked at [Quinn] and that he saw the surprise in Quinn's eyes at my reaction."
Fitzpatrick thought Quinn was a "real 1960s Irishman. He was one of those hail fellow well met, ah sure I will go down there and play the old cards, five or six lads for 10 bob, or whatever it was. He was always producing all that and would be nearly blessing himself. Everything will be all right.
He was very human but, I didn't easily like him."

The ongoing fall in the Anglo share price was threatening the Quinn business empire and the bank. At one stage Quinn and FitzPatrick were alone in the room.
"He was very close to tears. He could see what was happening."


Quinn is a bit like a clan chieftain who bet all the Maguire and O'Reilly land on a ship excursion to America. 
It is understandable that the OReilly and Maguire clansmen are annoyed that their chieftain is dissed. But he bet all the land. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 15, 2011, 01:50:20 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 15, 2011, 12:10:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 15, 2011, 07:45:42 AM
No harm Lone Shark if you don't challange someone when they are screwing you, it isn't honourable, it's stupid. If you want to pay your way regardless of what anyone does to you then that's fine. Personally I wouldn't want to be such a walk over.

I work in the gambling and journalism sectors. In both cases you're only as good as your word and if you are seen to twist the truth or weasel out of your commitments, you won't get very far. I'm happy with the way I do things, and it's up to you to live by your code. I'm delighted to say that the company that fecked me over has since fell into difficulty. Gotta love karma.

I only introduced this because you chose to make it personal, saying that I would do the same as Quinn has done. I just wanted to point out that I wouldn't, and haven't.

The issue here is not the politicians, or the developers, or even me. It's what SQ did. Any more straw men?

Who are you to decide the issues here? For me the issues are the illegal actions of Anglo. We dont have to dance to your tune. Just because you want to take that approach ( course we have no proof of that either but I suppose we'll have to take your word on it) in business doesn't mean anyone else should follow. I'd respect someone to stand up for their rights than rolling over and playing dead. 
As for making it personal, cry me a river. If you come out with terms like thief and looter then you'll leave yourself open to personal comments. Much the same as the straw man comment.

 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on November 15, 2011, 02:04:45 PM
Lads,

As someone who does not really care about Quinn (except our future liabilities as tax payers). I have heard two stories recently about, " the great man". ( both from the horses mouth)

This just follows on from the previous posts between loanshark and others.

The first happened several weeks before the difficulties in Quinn were known. Sean Quinn approached a relative of mine in the UK, regarding his insurance needs. My relative knows Sean for over 30 years and would have regarded him as more a friend that a business aquitance. Sean offered to lower my realtive's insurance bill by over 30% if he signed up with in the week and for cash. The policy would come in to effect when the current policy expired several months later. The only catch being cash up front now (we are talking several million quid including the discount). Uncle declined and a month later Quinn was in bother. ( Not this had any bearing on the issue).

The second story was Sean approached another Irish developer who does not carry out any work in Ireland, but is huge in the uk and Europe. Again the same as the first story, Quinn is well known by this individual. Long story short, simialr to the first one, the sum involved was well in excess of 10 million. This man had paid close to 8 million when the Quinn walls started to crumble. He luckily managed to get, the money paid to Quinn back from Anglo  (believe it or not).

Both of these men knew Sean Quinn for 30 years plus and when push came to shove, he was willing to relive them of millions to prop up his failed gamble.

As has been said earlier, one does not become a billionaire, by playing a few hands of 25 and throwing holy water sorund the place. Sean Quinn's ego is what landed him where he is today and he was willing to do anything to keep his show on the road, when the gamble didn't pay off. Where was his responsibiltiy for his workers, suppliers etc. futures when he first started this gamble, well down the line i suspect.

I'm sure he has a few nice nest eggs still in the stone walls around Enniskillen.

It would be interesting to see how many millions the governements both sides of the border have paid him in grants down the years and here we (the tax payer) are again bailing him out, when other business people weren't preapred to do it when things started to go tits up.



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 15, 2011, 02:18:19 PM
Emm he was hardly stealing the money. He was giving a valid policy. And the policy still would have been covered after AdministratIon. Many people pay insurance upright.
To be honest that's kind of a non story.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 15, 2011, 03:02:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 15, 2011, 02:18:19 PM
Emm he was hardly stealing the money. He was giving a valid policy. And the policy still would have been covered after AdministratIon. Many people pay insurance upright.
To be honest that's kind of a non story.

sounds good though doesnt it? Desperate times calls for desperate mesuares and all that  :o total character assasination going on all around the place, now people even have stories coming from the "horses mouth" and it being millions!

I think we may see Mr Quinn appearing as the evil villian aiming to take over the world in the new Bond movie at this stage!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DQwm7h2ygdo/S8hYD-1kZkI/AAAAAAAAABk/mLsGtyt5Aso/s1600/Sean_Quinn.jpg)(http://dlisted.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/vernetroyer.jpg)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2011, 03:18:46 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 15, 2011, 03:02:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 15, 2011, 02:18:19 PM
Emm he was hardly stealing the money. He was giving a valid policy. And the policy still would have been covered after AdministratIon. Many people pay insurance upright.
To be honest that's kind of a non story.

sounds good though doesnt it? Desperate times calls for desperate mesuares and all that  :o total character assasination going on all around the place, now people even have stories coming from the "horses mouth" and it being millions!

I think we may see Mr Quinn appearing as the evil villian aiming to take over the world in the new Bond movie at this stage!


He didn't understand finance. And he got burnt. More of a tragic figure than anything else.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on November 15, 2011, 03:24:13 PM
Personally I fail to see much difference between SQ and say a Bertie Ahern. Both were successful for a time and most people turned a blind eye to any weaknesses. The media loved them. However when they got it wrong lots of people suffered terribly. Both have made decisions that ultimately proved disastrous for their respective people.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on November 15, 2011, 03:37:51 PM
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on November 15, 2011, 02:04:45 PM
Lads,
It would be interesting to see how many millions the governements both sides of the border have paid him in grants down the years and here we (the tax payer) are again bailing him out, when other business people weren't preapred to do it when things started to go tits up.

Any evidence of these millions that he got hand over fist? Or are you just pulling accusations out of your ass. I wonder how it would stack up against the millions he and his employees gave in taxes to the government to piss away on Bertiebowl plans or e-voting machines? Sure never mind that craic, the only important thing is to partake in the boogieman guise being foisted upon Quinn's reputation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on November 15, 2011, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 15, 2011, 11:37:36 AM
QuoteI think that the Quinn family piling the rest of their cash into a field and burning it would be a better return for the taxpayer than shovelling it into Anglo. At least we would get the heat off of it, and more importantly it would be removed from contributing to prolonging the huge injustice of servicing the external losses of bondholders.


I have never heard such nonsense. You may or may not agree with the strategy of paying off bondholders, but it is something that should not be assessed only in itself but in the context in which it is taking place. But if Anglo does not recover its loans from those it lent money to, or as much as possible of these loans, then the taxpayer will have to put more capital in and that money will come from hospitals, schools and the like. This might be an injustice, Quinn paying back the money he borrowed to gamble on shares is not an injustice.

You are dead right that I may not agree about paying bondholders who should have taken losses.

Since we played ball with the troika has the budget deficit decreased? It has gone up! The longer we go along with the extortion the worse it will be. When the whole house of cards comes down in Europe we will be left with an even bigger adjustment in 1 year and a weaker economy to absorb the blow.

2 wrongs do not make a right - but to threaten our schools and hospitals unless the bondholders under the guarantee are paid by SQ, on the one hand, and then setting aside €700,000,000 that could have been used for this purpose to instead pay unsecured Anglo bondholders on the other... it really is farcical.

This is process that SQs money would help prolong and we would be thanked with a bigger disaster to clean up in the end.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 15, 2011, 04:28:34 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 15, 2011, 12:30:32 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 14, 2011, 11:40:37 PM
I expect loneshark if your business was in bother you would still keep all your assets in your name, including the family home, just in case the banks needed to sell them to get back what you owed. I think you would be wise to stop calling Quinn a thief and looter too.

With all due respect, which is none whatsoever, f**k you. You don't know the first thing about me and if you did, you'd realise that I have paid my way on several occasions when I could have avoided it. I've lost bets for large sums, none of which were legally enforceable. I've paid up every one of them, including three grand to a company that didn't play fair with me and cancelled a bet I had with them when I caught them out. I still paid them when it was the other way around, because my name and my honour was at stake.

I've taken business ventures before, some of which have worked and some haven't. I've always only used money that I could afford to lose and I've always taken responsibility for my debts. I've acted conservatively when others would have gone further, but that's been my choice. I wouldn't risk assets I didn't want to lose like a family home - least of all on a bet. Which is exactly what happened here.

If you want to talk about me, feel free. Unlike a lot of people on this board, yourself included, my real life identity is well known and if Sean Quinn wants to come after me, he's welcome to do so. But don't make presumptions when you don't know the first thing about me.

Jaysus, you are a mighty man anyway. Paying debts when you don't even have to and even when you are in the right! Why the hell would Sean Quinn want to go after you???
You don't like me making presumptions about you but you have no problem presuming to know Sean Quinns motives and calling him a thief and a looter.

ps - I have no idea who you are nor do I care to be honest.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on November 23, 2011, 04:11:33 PM
BUSINESSMAN Seán Quinn must repay €417m to the the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly Anglo Irish Bank, the Commercial Court ordered today.

A summary judgment against Mr Quinn was granted to IBRC by Mr Justice Peter Kelly.

The bank's claim for a further €1.6bn has been adjourned until next Monday to give the official receiver in charge of Mr Quinn's bankruptcy in Northern Ireland a further chance to tell the court if he wants to challenge that claim.

The Judge granted the order for almost €417m as it relates to sums of money that Mr Quinn has admitted that he owes and are therefore undisputed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on December 15, 2011, 07:04:18 PM
Don't know where to put this.  Here or What the F**k thread.

She is a director to some companies, the Secretary of others.

Seán Quinn's wife offers evidence 15 DEC 2011 17:39
The wife of businessman Seán Quinn has claimed she was under the undue influence of her husband when she signed documents for a loan of €3m from the former Anglo Irish Bank. 
-
The Irish Bank Resolution Corporation is seeking the repayment of the loan Patricia Quinn took out with her husband in 2006. 
-
She claims she has been a homemaker for 36 years. 
-
She said she did not know what she was signing and did not get the benefit of the money. 
-
IBRC has said Mrs Quinn's claims are not credible. They said she was a director of 63 Irish companies and was a company secretary of ten. 
-
Mr Justice Peter Kelly said Mrs Quinn's position was "startling" and "astonishing". 
-
She was saying she had no will of her own and was a "cat's paw" for her husband, signing every document he put in front of her without a clue what they were about. 
-
The judge will give his decision tomorrow morning
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Agent Orange on December 15, 2011, 07:27:50 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on December 15, 2011, 07:04:18 PM
The Irish Bank Resolution Corporation

Were they taking the piss when they came up with that name?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on December 15, 2011, 11:56:08 PM
The story with the wife and family is the one I have most issue with.
I think it's fairly obvious millions of euros have been moved to spouses and children by SQ ( and the likes of Seanie Fitz etc), this money should be reclaimed too, SQ can claim bankruptcy and still live like a millionaire, not my idea of bankruptcy. If the wife or kids can show they earned this money legitimately then fair enough but otherwise ........
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 07:35:53 AM
Everything was always in the kids names from 2002, the group, the insurance, the hotels etc. And there is alot more to this than simply a loan that is owed. I think it would be obvious enough to anyone now that the Quinns were loaned the money to prop up the share price in Anglo. Not to mention the fact investments were made in Anglo at a time when their books were being falsely represented.
They are fighting now to stop Anglo taking control of assests they don't believe they have a right to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 16, 2011, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 07:35:53 AM
Everything was always in the kids names from 2002, the group, the insurance, the hotels etc. And there is alot more to this than simply a loan that is owed. I think it would be obvious enough to anyone now that the Quinns were loaned the money to prop up the share price in Anglo. Not to mention the fact investments were made in Anglo at a time when their books were being falsely represented.
They are fighting now to stop Anglo taking control of assests they don't believe they have a right to.

Was that not after he had built up a holding of 25% in Anglo using the leverage of a CFD?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 10:04:27 AM
Yeah it was. But the money he had built up the stake with was mostly his own/ the groups. The majority of the loans that are now in dispute are regarding loans that Anglo forwarded to him to prevent him defaulting on the CFD's and then there being an influx of these to the market which would have resulted in the plummet of Anglo's share price.

Trust me there's a hell of a lot more to come out regarding this and most of what people are reading in the paper is the State/ Anglo side of things.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:08:52 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 10:04:27 AM
Yeah it was. But the money he had built up the stake with was mostly his own/ the groups. The majority of the loans that are now in dispute are regarding loans that Anglo forwarded to him to prevent him defaulting on the CFD's and then there being an influx of these to the market which would have resulted in the plummet of Anglo's share price.

Trust me there's a hell of a lot more to come out regarding this and most of what people are reading in the paper is the State/ Anglo side of things.

That may be true, but Anglo didn't force him to take a spread bet where he could lose €3bn. If Anglo didn't stupidly get involved he still would have lost the €3bn and probably quicker.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 10:18:28 AM
He prob would have lost the £3billion, and he definitely shouldn't have invested more . But if he lost Three billion he would still be going. The figure he has lost now is closer to six all in. 
Anglo didn't force him to take the bet no. But it shouldn't have been a possibility. He shouldn't have been able to take the loans. And if he wasn't offered legal advise in doing so then the loans are illegal and he and the family can rightly contest them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on December 16, 2011, 10:25:20 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 10:18:28 AM
He prob would have lost the £3billion, and he definitely shouldn't have invested more . But if he lost Three billion he would still be going. The figure he has lost now is closer to six all in. 
Anglo didn't force him to take the bet no. But it shouldn't have been a possibility. He shouldn't have been able to take the loans. And if he wasn't offered legal advise in doing so then the loans are illegal and he and the family can rightly contest them.

That's a great defence alright. "Sure I didn't know what I was at".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 16, 2011, 10:29:22 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 10:18:28 AM
He prob would have lost the £3billion, and he definitely shouldn't have invested more . But if he lost Three billion he would still be going. The figure he has lost now is closer to six all in. 
Anglo didn't force him to take the bet no. But it shouldn't have been a possibility. He shouldn't have been able to take the loans. And if he wasn't offered legal advise in doing so then the loans are illegal and he and the family can rightly contest them.

I'm genuinely interested in the exact transactions that took place so I apologise if it appears pedantic, I know it is an emotive subject for you and more of a curiosity for me.

My understanding is the Quinn entered into a Contract for Difference to secure the 25% before Anglo knew anything. Is that correct? Also I believe that at the time, Anglo didn't provide CFDs so the original transaction would have been with another institution, probably in London or New York. Is that correct or did he do the whole thing with Anglo?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 10:55:32 AM
No, don't worry Muppet. And I'll be honest I don't know the full ins and outs of things. But I do know that everything that is being reported is far from the whole story.

My understanding is that the 25% stake was built up privately by Sean Quinn through CFDs using money from the Group and his own wealth. Not sure where these were built up but it was without Anglos knowledge. Then when the prices dropped SQ told Anglo about the level of his investment as he would be unable to meet the difference. It was then that Anglo loaned the money to prevent the CFDs going back on the market which would have caused a drop in the share prices.
Again i think this is a pretty simplistic summary of things but it's the reason they are disputing the loans.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on December 16, 2011, 10:25:20 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 10:18:28 AM
He prob would have lost the £3billion, and he definitely shouldn't have invested more . But if he lost Three billion he would still be going. The figure he has lost now is closer to six all in. 
Anglo didn't force him to take the bet no. But it shouldn't have been a possibility. He shouldn't have been able to take the loans. And if he wasn't offered legal advise in doing so then the loans are illegal and he and the family can rightly contest them.

That's a great defence alright. "Sure I didn't know what I was at".

I think you'll find that it's quite a defense alright when you consider the likes of the claims for payment protection that have been ongoing based on a similar issue of not getting the advise legally required when taking it out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on December 16, 2011, 11:50:08 AM
I have no doubt that there is something dodgy about the manner in which Seán Quinn was lent money by Anglo. Sign there Seán, it's just a formality Seán, it'll never come back on you Seán. However, the loans would still be dodgy had they turned to be spectacular successes. Would Seán Quinn be washing his hands of the ill-earned profits he would have made upon discovering said dodginess? Like fun he would.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 16, 2011, 11:54:59 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 10:55:32 AM
No, don't worry Muppet. And I'll be honest I don't know the full ins and outs of things. But I do know that everything that is being reported is far from the whole story.

My understanding is that the 25% stake was built up privately by Sean Quinn through CFDs using money from the Group and his own wealth. Not sure where these were built up but it was without Anglos knowledge. Then when the prices dropped SQ told Anglo about the level of his investment as he would be unable to meet the difference. It was then that Anglo loaned the money to prevent the CFDs going back on the market which would have caused a drop in the share prices.
Again i think this is a pretty simplistic summary of things but it's the reason they are disputing the loans.

If that was the case the ratio of the cost of 25% would roughly have been 1:9. Or in others word Quinn would have put up 2.5% and the provider of the CFD would put up 22.5%. Assuming that CFD provider wasn't Anglo Quinn's first problem was paying back (margin call) the provider of the CFD as the share price fell. That is when I think he went to Anglo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 12:14:07 PM
Quote from: deiseach on December 16, 2011, 11:50:08 AM
I have no doubt that there is something dodgy about the manner in which Seán Quinn was lent money by Anglo. Sign there Seán, it's just a formality Seán, it'll never come back on you Seán. However, the loans would still be dodgy had they turned to be spectacular successes. Would Seán Quinn be washing his hands of the ill-earned profits he would have made upon discovering said dodginess? Like fun he would.

Prob not Deiseach I agree. But the fact that it didn't means he has an avenue to dispute the loans. and I would say the majority of people would do the same considering the route Ango/ the state has gone about their business.

Muppet you will prob know more about the CFD side than I do. But what would have happened had SQ not paid the balance on the CFDs. Is it not a case of losing the 2.5% when the CFDs are recalled and then resold by the lender?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 16, 2011, 12:41:10 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 12:14:07 PM
Quote from: deiseach on December 16, 2011, 11:50:08 AM
I have no doubt that there is something dodgy about the manner in which Seán Quinn was lent money by Anglo. Sign there Seán, it's just a formality Seán, it'll never come back on you Seán. However, the loans would still be dodgy had they turned to be spectacular successes. Would Seán Quinn be washing his hands of the ill-earned profits he would have made upon discovering said dodginess? Like fun he would.

Prob not Deiseach I agree. But the fact that it didn't means he has an avenue to dispute the loans. and I would say the majority of people would do the same considering the route Ango/ the state has gone about their business.

Muppet you will prob know more about the CFD side than I do. But what would have happened had SQ not paid the balance on the CFDs. Is it not a case of losing the 2.5% when the CFDs are recalled and then resold by the lender?

Unfortunately not. The CFD provider takes no risk and would have liquidated him quicker that Anglo are doing now. Anglo should never have got involved and undoubtedly they would probably all be in jail except for the regulator gave the nod. (according to Emmet Oliver yesterday). However from Quinn's point of view (at the time) doing a deal with Anglo probably looked much better for him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 12:53:38 PM
Yeah I understand what you saying Muppet. But what I don't understand is that SQ had nothing in his name from way before Administration. Had he been liquidated by the provider he would have lost any money he'd invested and whatever personal assets. But as the group and insurance weren't under his name they wouldn't have been touched. But it was the guarantees that he and the children signed up for with Anglo that took down the whole lot and these were related to the illegal loans from Anglo. Had they not got involved in this then yes SQ would have been ruined but the group and Insurance would have stood in the Children's name and they would have had a chance to rebuild. Of course that would have been a disaster for Anglo as the CFDs would have flooded back onto the market causing their share price to drop.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on December 16, 2011, 12:59:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 12:53:38 PM
Yeah I understand what you saying Muppet. But what I don't understand is that SQ had nothing in his name from way before Administration. Had he been liquidated by the provider he would have lost any money he'd invested and whatever personal assets. But as the group and insurance weren't under his name they wouldn't have been touched. But it was the guarantees that he and the children signed up for with Anglo that took down the whole lot and these were related to the illegal loans from Anglo. Had they not got involved in this then yes SQ would have been ruined but the group and Insurance would have stood in the Children's name and they would have had a chance to rebuild. Of course that would have been a disaster for Anglo as the CFDs would have flooded back onto the market causing their share price to drop.

He was way out of his depth. Like all the people in finance in Ireland. The viciousness of the bailout says it all.
But you try not to get yourself into a situation where they shit on you.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 01:03:26 PM
No doubt Seafoid. He made a mess of things and instead of cutting his losses he chased them.

There's a lot to run in this yet. I reckon this thread will still be going in two years time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 16, 2011, 01:11:31 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 12:53:38 PM
Yeah I understand what you saying Muppet. But what I don't understand is that SQ had nothing in his name from way before Administration. Had he been liquidated by the provider he would have lost any money he'd invested and whatever personal assets. But as the group and insurance weren't under his name they wouldn't have been touched. But it was the guarantees that he and the children signed up for with Anglo that took down the whole lot and these were related to the illegal loans from Anglo. Had they not got involved in this then yes SQ would have been ruined but the group and Insurance would have stood in the Children's name and they would have had a chance to rebuild. Of course that would have been a disaster for Anglo as the CFDs would have flooded back onto the market causing their share price to drop.

Like I said, it must have looked better to him at that time to sign up for that. He obviously felt the CFD people liquidating him would be far worse, rightly or wrongly.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 02:16:17 PM
Yeah I'm sure he was hoping that things would turn round and that he'd get to trade his way out of it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on December 16, 2011, 02:19:17 PM
The man should be ashamed of himself, hoodwinking a poor stupid housewife like that! ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on December 16, 2011, 03:04:52 PM
The beak hasn't accepted (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1216/quinn.html) Patricia Quinn's damsel-in-distress defence. This part stood out as a twist of the judicial knife:

QuoteHe also said Mrs Quinn's lawyers had argued that there was a presumption of undue influence in the relationship between husband and wife.

There was not, he said, and had not been since 1750.

Nice job, wigs.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2011, 05:19:40 PM
In Other News.

THE Quinn Group's new management last night confirmed they were "considering" closing a Galway quarry and making 12 staff redundant.

The move would mark the first closure and layoffs at the Quinn Group businesses since they were taken over by Anglo Irish Bank and lenders last April.

Anglo initially vowed to protect all jobs. But the bailed-out bank later gave up the veto on job cuts as part of a deal to remove an extra €250m of debt from the group.

The bank asked other lenders to relieve the group of the €250m of debt -- in exchange Anglo agreed to give up its veto on job cuts.

Sources last night said the bank would be powerless to block the mooted Galway cuts, because Anglo is now only able to veto cuts of more than 10pc of the staff in any Quinn Group unit.

The cuts may also revive local ill-feeling against the Quinn Group takeover.



That's the start of it.

And I love the way the papers reported that the they have reduced the dept and "relieved" the group of dept. All they've done is agreed with the lenders to put the dept aside for a few years. The dept is still there and will have to repaid at some stage. The spin being put out by the state/ Anglo on this is crazy. The problem is that most are accepting it without question.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 16, 2011, 05:33:48 PM
Quote from: deiseach on December 16, 2011, 03:04:52 PM
The beak hasn't accepted (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1216/quinn.html) Patricia Quinn's damsel-in-distress defence. This part stood out as a twist of the judicial knife:

QuoteHe also said Mrs Quinn's lawyers had argued that there was a presumption of undue influence in the relationship between husband and wife.

There was not, he said, and had not been since 1750.

Nice job, wigs.

That judge Kelly has seen through an awful lot of Builder/Developer and now Quinn bullsh1t the last few years.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: southdown on December 20, 2011, 01:54:34 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16270700


GaaBoard.com?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on December 20, 2011, 03:16:03 PM
Supersarsfields is fucked, PQ will be out to get him

Quote from: southdown on December 20, 2011, 01:54:34 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16270700


GaaBoard.com?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2011, 03:27:38 PM
I'm afraid it's more the local Cavan men that he may be after. farneyman could be in trouble as the story breaker....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on December 20, 2011, 03:37:08 PM
SQ on the front page
and he looks very tired

http://www.irishtimes.com/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 20, 2011, 06:08:01 PM
Some clown by the name of Islandeady is giving us quite the bashing on politics.ie: http://www.politics.ie/forum/media/178241-sean-quinns-activities-being-monitored-gaa-forum.html (http://www.politics.ie/forum/media/178241-sean-quinns-activities-being-monitored-gaa-forum.html)

He says we are not 'normal Gaa fans'. But he holds a particular hatred for supporters of SQ which he calls 'rouge' elements. He has one of those egos that lets him speak for the majority of Irish people: "This website has a fairly bad reputation with regards the quality of discussion and many including myself keep well away from it most of the time. There are a lot of Sean Quinn is great people on it."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on December 20, 2011, 06:43:56 PM
Yes you knuckle dragging bogmen are not typical of gaa fans. If you want to read the opinion of real gaa folk you should head over to politics.ie. There you will find that the real genuine gaa folk are in fact self righteous, arrogant toss pots that haven't s clue what they are waffling on about. Glad to assist, tally ho!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on December 20, 2011, 07:50:39 PM
Strong stuff going to court referring to annonymous chat on here...  ???

Where was it mentioned again anyhow? I am thinking it might have come from me  :o  *gulp*
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on December 20, 2011, 09:18:27 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on December 20, 2011, 07:50:39 PM
Strong stuff going to court referring to annonymous chat on here...  ???

Where was it mentioned again anyhow? I am thinking it might have come from me  :o  *gulp*

I think this was it :

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=15845.msg969304#msg969304

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on December 20, 2011, 11:24:18 PM
It was in the Anglo celt too so don't know why they are saying it came from here or whatever gaa blog they are on about.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 20, 2011, 11:34:50 PM
Anglo put the unit under surveillance - was this / is this legal ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on December 21, 2011, 08:30:05 AM
Those posts refer to a new business in Belturbet - on the news last night it said the unit put under surveillance was in Derrylin, and the footage showed Derrylin.

Sammy, dont blame yourself, if those lads are on here I'm sure they've seen the horse racing thread too, and so would have known not to place much reliance on any info you had  :P  :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 22, 2011, 11:31:21 AM
Bit of disruption for the Quinn Group last night again.

Quinn Derrylin headquarters damaged in lorry attack
The lorry was backed into the staff restaurant Continue reading the main story
Related Stories
Bank put surveillance on factory
Hearing set over Quinn bankruptcy
'Concern' over Quinn bankruptcy
Businessman Sean Quinn's former headquarters in Derrylin, County Fermanagh, have been damaged in the latest in a series of attacks.

Police have launched an investigation after a lorry was backed into the staff canteen on Wednesday night leaving a gaping hole.

The workers had gone home. No-one was in the building when it happened.

The attacks have happened since the former Anglo-Irish Bank took control of the business.

The lorry used in the latest attack was later found burned out on a side road.

The bank, now the Irish Bank Resolution Company (IBRC), has been in court this week attempting to have Mr Quinn's bankruptcy in Northern Ireland set aside.

Mr Quinn, 63, once believed to have been the richest man in Ireland, was reputedly worth 4.72bn euros (£3.7bn) at the height of his success.

He was stripped of control of his manufacturing and insurance business empire in April. Since then, there have been a series of attacks on Quinn Group properties.

Mr Quinn has previously condemned the attacks, and said those responsible for the damage were not acting in his name and called for them to cease.

He and his family are engaged in a legal battle with the IBRC.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Doogie Browser on December 22, 2011, 11:34:16 AM
Who are the main organisers of these attacks SS?  I thought he was a hero in that part of the world?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 22, 2011, 11:45:02 AM
He's not involved anymore Doogie. The company was stripped from him and there is alot of bad feeling in the community regarding the way it was done and the reasons behind it. I'd imagine this is more of a protest against the current management.

It's very unfortunate as I believe the new CEO/ MD was planning a meeting in the canteen today to share his views of where he would like to take the company and his plans for the future.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Doogie Browser on December 22, 2011, 12:04:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 22, 2011, 11:45:02 AM
He's not involved anymore Doogie. The company was stripped from him and there is alot of bad feeling in the community regarding the way it was done and the reasons behind it. I'd imagine this is more of a protest against the current management.
It's very unfortunate as I believe the new CEO/ MD was planning a meeting in the canteen today to share his views of where he would like to take the company and his plans for the future.
That's what I was thinking as I was sure the people of the area would not attack SQ like that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bingo on December 22, 2011, 12:18:22 PM
Maybe the driver got a bad feed in the canteen.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 22, 2011, 12:42:01 PM
Some bad drivers down there !!!!!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on December 22, 2011, 12:59:18 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on December 21, 2011, 08:30:05 AM
Those posts refer to a new business in Belturbet - on the news last night it said the unit put under surveillance was in Derrylin, and the footage showed Derrylin.

Sammy, dont blame yourself, if those lads are on here I'm sure they've seen the horse racing thread too, and so would have known not to place much reliance on any info you had  :P  :D

good man haran, fair play!!  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on December 22, 2011, 01:13:48 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on December 22, 2011, 12:59:18 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on December 21, 2011, 08:30:05 AM
Those posts refer to a new business in Belturbet - on the news last night it said the unit put under surveillance was in Derrylin, and the footage showed Derrylin.

Sammy, dont blame yourself, if those lads are on here I'm sure they've seen the horse racing thread too, and so would have known not to place much reliance on any info you had  :P  :D

good man haran, fair play!!  ;)

;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on December 22, 2011, 06:15:08 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16308569

Sean Quinn fails in bankruptcy legal application

Sean Quinn has failed in a legal bid to have new bankruptcy proceedings against him in the Irish Republic put on hold.

A Belfast High Court judge refused his request to restrain the former Anglo Irish Bank from serving him a summons.

With the injunction application denied, papers are now set to be served at his home in Ballyconnell, County Cavan.

However, the bank - renamed the IBRC - said it would not try to bankrupt Mr Quinn until the conclusion of a related legal case in Belfast.
In that case IBRC (Irish Bank Resolution Corporation) are trying to have the former billionaire businessman's Northern Ireland bankruptcy annulled.

Mr Quinn declared himself bankrupt in November over an alleged £2bn debt owed to the bank.

This week the bank argued that the Northern Ireland bankruptcy was invalid as Mr Quinn's so-called 'centre of main interests' was outside Northern Ireland.

It said that by declaring himself bankrupt north of the border it added cost and complexity to their attempts to recover the money they are owed.

During this week's case, the bank said it would bankrupt Mr Quinn in the Republic if they manage to overturn the Northern Ireland bankruptcy.

The latest court appearance shows they are making preparations to do so.

In court in Belfast on Thursday it emerged that a bankruptcy summons was drawn up in Dublin last week.

Mr Justice Deeny declined to grant an injunction after being told IBRC would ask for the southern case to be adjourned until he has ruled on the attempt to have the tycoon's bankruptcy in Northern Ireland annulled.

By declaring bankruptcy in Northern Ireland, it means Mr Quinn only has to wait 12 months before going back into business - rather than 12 years in the Republic.

The businessman's barrister, Paul McLaughlin, had urged the court to restrain the IBRC action pending a further order.

He claimed the bank was attempting to divert attention in the case to the Republic.

David Dunlop, for IBRC, argued that Mr Quinn's application was misconceived.

He stressed there was no attempt by his client to "abdicate" the jurisdiction of the High Court in Belfast.

Mr Dunlop confirmed that no attempt would be made to have any petition determined until the centre of main interest issue was resolved.

Mr Justice Deeny held that there was no basis for concluding the bank was acting in bad faith.

He said: "They have said they will commence proceedings but will not take the crucial step of seeking an order of bankruptcy in the Republic until the determination of the annulment application before this court.

"On those grounds I refuse the application."

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 10, 2012, 08:37:05 AM
D Day today with regards the Bankruptcy. Fully expect it to be overturned based on the centre of interests. Not that it will make that big a difference to anything.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 12:04:43 PM
Bankruptcy in NI annulled  :)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0110/quinns.html (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0110/quinns.html)

The Irish Bank Resolution Corporation has succeeded in having Seán Quinn's bankruptcy status in Northern Ireland annulled.

Judgement in the case at Belfast High Court was given by Mr Justice Donal Deeny this morning.

The IBRC had argued that Mr Quinn's centre of main interest
was in the Republic of Ireland and not north of the border.

When he successfully sought bankruptcy status from the Belfast court in November, Mr Quinn claimed that he was operating from an office in Co Fermanagh.

During its challenge last month the IRBC claimed that a European Directive that applies in insolvency cases stipulates that a person's centre of main interest has to be ascertainable to third parties, such as creditors.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on January 10, 2012, 12:21:11 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16488305

Fermanagh businessman, and former billionaire, Sean Quinn was not entitled to declare himself bankrupt in Northern Ireland, a court has ruled. Mr Quinn declared insolvency in Belfast in November over a huge debt owed to the former Anglo Irish Bank. The bank, now called IBRC, challenged the move on the grounds that Mr Quinn was based in the Republic of Ireland. At the Hugh Court on Tuesday Mr Justice Deeney found in favour of the bank, annulling the bankruptcy. He found that a lease for an office in Derrylin, County Fermanagh, had been drawn up to "bolster" Mr Quinn's claim and that his centre of interests prior to bankruptcy was in fact in the Republic of Ireland between his home in County Cavan, offices in Belturbet and advisors offices in Dublin. The judge described the Derrylin lease as "a somewhat curious document". Mr Quinn could now be declared insolvent in the Republic of Ireland which has a more onerous bankruptcy regime. The judge ordered that if Mr Quinn files a fresh bankruptcy petition in Northern Ireland, notice should be given to the bank's solicitor in Belfast.Mr Justice Deeney said it was likely that any future bankruptcy action by Mr Quinn would be referred to him.The bank's barrister, Gabriel Moss QC, said Mr Quinn was now "bound to be made bankrupt" in the Republic of Ireland.  Mr Moss is also seeking disclosure of who was funding Mr Quinn's legal action so that they can be pursued for costs
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 10, 2012, 12:28:05 PM
Does this make any difference to the overall outcome ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 10, 2012, 01:04:46 PM
Not a pile of difference to be honest OM. Stops SQ going into business for 12 years instead of 1. And Anglo say it will reduce their legal costs by having it in the ROI. Has no effect whatsoever on the money to be recouped or their chances of getting it.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Doogie Browser on January 10, 2012, 01:22:48 PM
Was about face saving for Anglo, nothing else.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on January 10, 2012, 01:36:03 PM
the hubris over on politics.ie is pathetic. great day for ireland, etc. anyone who thinks this is a victory for the irish electorate is sorely naive.

maybe anglo will create jobs with the money they recoup  :D

a nice result for the powers that be as they gear up to divert the savings from the last budget to the pockets of senior unsecured bondholders on the 25th this month (1.25 billion).

i am reminded of the tagline for Alien vs Predator: Requiem - "Whoever wins, we lose"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:01:13 PM
The man with one of the best job creation track records is now out of business for 12 years. Just what we need in these times. This country really is ruled by idiots.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 10, 2012, 02:10:46 PM
To be honest I don't think this ruling will make that much of a difference. If the Quinns come away from this with any sort of finance then he'll still be involved in business development even if his name isn't on it. But that's what Anglo will want. anything to stop him looking successful in the future will be a bonus for them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on January 10, 2012, 02:15:12 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:01:13 PM
The man with one of the best job creation track records is now out of business for 12 years. Just what we need in these times. This country really is ruled by idiots.

And reduced to back dating bogus lease agreements it seems.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 02:20:22 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:01:13 PM
The man with one of the best job creation track records is now out of business for 12 years. Just what we need in these times. This country really is ruled by idiots.

The taxpayers of this state have to pay for his f*ck ups. It's only right he has to go through the courts in this state.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:34:25 PM
Quinn f**ker up but it is not his fault the tax payer is picking up the tab. That would be our governments fault for their blanket cover for all anglo debt. In any case none of this is made better or worse by todays verdict. All that does is make sure Sean Quinn cannot start a business again for 12 yrs. Who does that help can somebody explain to me?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 10, 2012, 02:35:31 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 02:20:22 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:01:13 PM
The man with one of the best job creation track records is now out of business for 12 years. Just what we need in these times. This country really is ruled by idiots.

The taxpayers of this state have to pay for his f*ck ups. It's only right he has to go through the courts in this state.

That's got feck all to do with it. Had the Office in Derrylin been disclosed at the time of applying for bankruptcy it would have went through in the North, and considering his centre of interests was in the north for 38 odd years until the military removal of him from the office in april it was hardly an unjust call to apply for bankruptcy in the north. A huge oversite by his solicitors in not having it in place/ declared before applying for bankruptcy.

Going through the south make feck all difference to the chances of getting the money back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:34:25 PM
Quinn f**ker up but it is not his fault the tax payer is picking up the tab. That would be our governments fault for their blanket cover for all anglo debt. In any case none of this is made better or worse by todays verdict. All that does is make sure Sean Quinn cannot start a business again for 12 yrs. Who does that help can somebody explain to me?

According to 'the news' the IRBC (formally Anglo) were concerned that he would move assets out of the country, and out of their reach. If he managed that, we (the taxpayers) would have to cover the costs.
So if they can prevent him moving assets and can recoup several million, it's worth it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 10, 2012, 05:11:30 PM
Quinn seems to have committed a different crime to many of the others in the South. The crime seems to be not landing in NAMA.

While I have little sympathy for Quinn why haven't the likes of Mick Wallace and all those insolvent developers in NAMA been pursued as aggressively?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Doogie Browser on January 10, 2012, 05:11:38 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:34:25 PM
Quinn f**ker up but it is not his fault the tax payer is picking up the tab. That would be our governments fault for their blanket cover for all anglo debt. In any case none of this is made better or worse by todays verdict. All that does is make sure Sean Quinn cannot start a business again for 12 yrs. Who does that help can somebody explain to me?

According to 'the news' the IRBC (formally Anglo) were concerned that he would move assets out of the country, and out of their reach. If he managed that, we (the taxpayers) would have to cover the costs.
So if they can prevent him moving assets and can recoup several million, it's worth it.
You can't take knickers off a bare arse
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:16:02 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on January 10, 2012, 05:11:38 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:34:25 PM
Quinn f**ker up but it is not his fault the tax payer is picking up the tab. That would be our governments fault for their blanket cover for all anglo debt. In any case none of this is made better or worse by todays verdict. All that does is make sure Sean Quinn cannot start a business again for 12 yrs. Who does that help can somebody explain to me?

According to 'the news' the IRBC (formally Anglo) were concerned that he would move assets out of the country, and out of their reach. If he managed that, we (the taxpayers) would have to cover the costs.
So if they can prevent him moving assets and can recoup several million, it's worth it.
You can't take knickers off a bare arse

No shortage of knickers (silk or otherwise) in the Quinn family.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Doogie Browser on January 10, 2012, 05:19:43 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:16:02 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on January 10, 2012, 05:11:38 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:34:25 PM
Quinn f**ker up but it is not his fault the tax payer is picking up the tab. That would be our governments fault for their blanket cover for all anglo debt. In any case none of this is made better or worse by todays verdict. All that does is make sure Sean Quinn cannot start a business again for 12 yrs. Who does that help can somebody explain to me?

According to 'the news' the IRBC (formally Anglo) were concerned that he would move assets out of the country, and out of their reach. If he managed that, we (the taxpayers) would have to cover the costs.
So if they can prevent him moving assets and can recoup several million, it's worth it.
You can't take knickers off a bare arse

No shortage of knickers (silk or otherwise) in the Quinn family.
That is the problem, the Dublin Gov't have pursued this claim as a cause celebre to divert attention away from the other issues, they will not get a penny from this IMO.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:24:24 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on January 10, 2012, 05:19:43 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:16:02 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on January 10, 2012, 05:11:38 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:34:25 PM
Quinn f**ker up but it is not his fault the tax payer is picking up the tab. That would be our governments fault for their blanket cover for all anglo debt. In any case none of this is made better or worse by todays verdict. All that does is make sure Sean Quinn cannot start a business again for 12 yrs. Who does that help can somebody explain to me?

According to 'the news' the IRBC (formally Anglo) were concerned that he would move assets out of the country, and out of their reach. If he managed that, we (the taxpayers) would have to cover the costs.
So if they can prevent him moving assets and can recoup several million, it's worth it.
You can't take knickers off a bare arse

No shortage of knickers (silk or otherwise) in the Quinn family.
That is the problem, the Dublin Gov't have pursued this claim as a cause celebre to divert attention away from the other issues, they will not get a penny from this IMO.

Don't disagree with you there. I'd prefer they went after others with the same attitude.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 10, 2012, 05:33:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 10, 2012, 05:11:30 PM
Quinn seems to have committed a different crime to many of the others in the South. The crime seems to be not landing in NAMA.

While I have little sympathy for Quinn why haven't the likes of Mick Wallace and all those insolvent developers in NAMA been pursued as aggressively?

Maybe they want the big fish first and then they'll hook the smallfry thereafter ??.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 10, 2012, 06:25:58 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:34:25 PM
Quinn f**ker up but it is not his fault the tax payer is picking up the tab. That would be our governments fault for their blanket cover for all anglo debt. In any case none of this is made better or worse by todays verdict. All that does is make sure Sean Quinn cannot start a business again for 12 yrs. Who does that help can somebody explain to me?

According to 'the news' the IRBC (formally Anglo) were concerned that he would move assets out of the country, and out of their reach. If he managed that, we (the taxpayers) would have to cover the costs.
So if they can prevent him moving assets and can recoup several million, it's worth it.

That concern is still there. Today's judgement did nothing to prevent that. And Anglo know that. The only benefit is that they don't have to deploy Northern solicitors and so saving on legal fees.

It has no effect on Quinns protecting their assets.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on January 10, 2012, 06:28:06 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 10, 2012, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 10, 2012, 02:34:25 PM
Quinn f**ker up but it is not his fault the tax payer is picking up the tab. That would be our governments fault for their blanket cover for all anglo debt. In any case none of this is made better or worse by todays verdict. All that does is make sure Sean Quinn cannot start a business again for 12 yrs. Who does that help can somebody explain to me?

According to 'the news' the IRBC (formally Anglo) were concerned that he would move assets out of the country, and out of their reach. If he managed that, we (the taxpayers) would have to cover the costs.
So if they can prevent him moving assets and can recoup several million, it's worth it.

this is what i cannot understand, that so many people seem intent in cheering on the acquisition of the quinns assets so his money can be thrown to foreign bondholders as if it would be an indirect 'saving' for the taxpayer.

say 0 recouped -> 0 for bondholders -> the electorate will be raped as far as it is judged possible to push them for the next few budgets
say 10 million is recouped -> 10m for bondholders -> the electorate will be raped as far as it is judged possible to push them for the next few budgets (with extra authority now it is firmly established that SQ and any others resisting will be readily squashed). Also with the added bonus that any notions of future enterprise from SQ are more firmly laid to rest.

What i mean is that there is zero difference here with the level of national debt we are talking about. When a slave is forced to fill in a hole so big that he will never be fit to even half finish it then the limiting factor is how much work you can drive out of him every day. Whether he gets to within 25 feet or 20 feet is academic to the slave - he will die of exhaustion before it is full.

Gutting what SQ has left (not enough) simply reinforces the authority of the pillage. there is no value here for the man in the street.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dec on January 10, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
He even made the front page of the New York Times Business section on Sunday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/business/sean-quinn-and-irelands-boom-and-bust.html

The Fall of Ireland's Mighty Quinn
By DOREEN CARVAJAL

DUBLIN

IN the green borderlands of County Fermanagh, there was nothing like the Mighty Quinn.

That is what they called Sean Quinn — canny conglomerateur to his friends, wily rogue to his enemies and, until recently, the richest man in Ireland.

Even now, with times so hard in this country, his up-by-the-bootstraps story is the stuff of legend, a Celtic fairy tale for strivers and climbers. This, after all, is the farmer's son who became a quarry man and then, with gravel and grit and yes, a bit of old-fashioned greed, became a billionaire.

Until, that is, it all came crashing down.

Mr. Quinn, 65, contends he lost nearly everything when the bottom fell out of the Irish economy. His business empire, his concrete factories, his wind farms and hotels, the helicopter and the Falcon jet — all gone. Last November, after apparently gambling away his fortune on disastrous investments, he was declared bankrupt by a court in Belfast. During the proceedings, he said he was down to his last 11,000 euros, and an aging Mercedes and 166 acres of land.

That, anyway, is what Mr. Quinn says. Here in Dublin, at the financial institution formerly known as the Anglo Irish Bank, Mr. Quinn's skeptical bankers say his assertions are, well, blarney. They suspect that he and his family still secretly control valuable assets as varied as a shopping tower in Ukraine and real estate in Hyderabad, India's Silicon Valley.

And so the bankers have begun a global treasure hunt. Anglo Irish, which got into so much trouble that it had to be nationalized, says that the Quinns owe it more than 2.8 billion euros, and that it will fight to recover that money for Irish taxpayers.

It is yet another remarkable turn of events in the long, painful saga of the Irish economic collapse. In many ways, Mr. Quinn personified Ireland's boom. Now, he has come to personify its bust. Banks like Anglo Irish lent lavishly to builders and investors like Mr. Quinn. But when the real estate market finally came unglued, the banks were left with more than 70 billion euros in loans that could not, or would not, be repaid.

The Irish government was forced to rescue the financial industry, and the whole debacle eventually led to a bailout by the European Union and the International Monetary Fund. Today, Ireland's economy is still struggling. Unemployment is over 14 percent, and home prices are down 60 percent from their peak. Resentment lingers toward reckless lenders and borrowers.

One thing is sure: the Quinn story is full of surprises. Every effort to claim and manage the assets that he used as collateral for his loans from Anglo Irish has run into mysterious — and sometimes violent — difficulties. Last April, shortly after the bank tried to seize the Quinn Group, his holding company, an earthmover smashed through posts outside the company's headquarters in Derrylin, Northern Ireland, where the Quinn family has kept a farm for five generations. A few months later, a firebomb destroyed a BMW that belonged to the new chief executive of the Quinn Group appointed by the bank. In December, a truck rammed through the company's canteen.

No one knows who was behind most of the vandalism, and Mr. Quinn and his family have condemned the violence. In court filings, he said he passed his former headquarters nearly every day and still feels pangs of loss. "I no longer own or control the businesses which I have spent my life building up," he said.

Such assurances aside, his former bankers suspect that Mr. Quinn has masterminded various maneuvers to hang on to at least part of his fortune. They say he has used offshore companies to thwart their efforts to gain control of his empire's foreign holdings — a contention that the Quinns have denied.

"It is very much a three-dimensional chess game," said Richard Woodhouse, a British accountant who is leading the quest by the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly Anglo Irish, to find and seize the Quinn Group's international properties.

While Mr. Quinn is pleading poverty, his wife, Patricia, and his five adult children are battling the bank in court. They say they don't owe the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation anything, since they didn't know what they were doing when they signed the paperwork for Mr. Quinn's loans.

Neither side agrees on much — not even who said what to whom. When his bankers told Mr. Quinn last April that they were seizing control of his conglomerate, Mr. Quinn said he would fight like a cornered rat, according to the bankers.

One of Mr. Quinn's daughters, Aoife Quinn, remembers a more poetic declaration: "Put a dog into a corner, and it will come out barking."

Mr. Quinn, who rarely grants interviews, declined to comment.

HOW Sean Quinn fell so hard, so fast is a story for Ireland's anguished economic times. Born John Ignatius Quinn, he got his start in business in 1975, when he borrowed 100 Irish pounds to dig a gravel quarry on his family's farm.

But by 2007, having built a globe-spanning empire, he was borrowing billions to gamble on the shares of Anglo Irish. As the bank teetered, it lent huge sums of money to Mr. Quinn.

Hoping to turn a quick profit, he gambled on derivatives, financial instruments that, on the western side of the Atlantic, proved disastrous for the likes of the American International Group. Specifically, he wagered on what are known as contacts for difference, which are used to speculate on the price of a particular asset — in this case, the shares of Anglo Irish itself.

During the boom, these contracts were wildly popular in Ireland, in part because they enable investors to put down as little as 10 percent of the value of the underlying investment. They can be enormously profitable if the price of the underlying shares move in the investor's favor — and disastrous if prices go the other way.

For Mr. Quinn, the contracts turned out to be cataclysmic. He lost so big that, combined with Ireland's deep recession and other missteps, his empire was brought to its knees.

Only now the Quinns argue that the loans from Anglo Irish are invalid. They say that the bank doled out money recklessly and that it was hoping that Mr. Quinn's maneuvers in the financial markets would help prop up its share price. In their view, Anglo Irish, not Sean Quinn, is the villain.

"They would blame my father for the fall of Europe if they could," said Aoife Quinn, 30, the fourth of Mr. Quinn's five children. All five have been ousted as shareholders and from their jobs at various Quinn companies. "I know he is no angel and not without blame, but they seem intent to drag him down."

The two sides sparred last month in bankruptcy court in Northern Ireland and are now waiting to go to court again early this year in Ireland. The bankers challenged Mr. Quinn's bankruptcy declaration, which could allow him to emerge in a year to resume his business, as he has vowed to do.

The two sides seem to be playing a game of cat and mouse. But just who is the cat, and who is the mouse? Even though he has been declared bankrupt, Mr. Quinn still lives in a sumptuous mansion in Ballyconnell, Ireland. His five children are listed as the owners.

For the bankers, one challenge is the sheer size and reach of the Quinn Group. Its international property portfolio stretches over 70 companies in 14 countries. Each week, bankers get thick reports chronicling legal skirmishes in various jurisdictions.

The paperwork provides a glimpse into a byzantine organization. In some cases, foreign third parties have claimed enormous debts that, remarkably, equal the exact share value of landmark buildings. In other cases, stock and vital voting rights have been transferred in return for little more than a 380-euro Sony laptop.

"I feel sometimes that I am researching a cold-war novel, rather than urban development and finance," said Brendan Williams, an economist at University College Dublin who has been tracking the fallout from Ireland's property bust. "Leaves 't**ker Tailor' in the shade."

In India, for example, representatives for the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation are struggling to gain control of a $5 million site for a hotel in Hyderabad. A local injunction blocked them, but they have no idea who is behind it. The company disputing their takeover, Mecon Manufacturing and Contracting FZE, is based in the United Arab Emirates, where registration of corporate directors is secret.

"Slowly but surely it got more and more difficult," said Robert Dix, who was named by the bank to direct Quinn Holdings Sweden AB, a company Mr. Quinn established in Sweden in order to minimize taxes and enable his children to control his global portfolio.

"We have no idea who the brain is," Mr. Dix said, "but it has to be somebody very clever because it's very consistent."

THE Mighty Quinn was still flying high when the crash came in 2008. That year, Forbes magazine estimated his personal wealth at $6 billion, and his companies employed almost 6,000 people. Among them were his five children, who began working for their father as teenagers, picking up stones on a family-run golf course.

Mr. Quinn rarely speaks publicly. But in 2005, he delivered a prophetic speech about his hard-charging business style. "I suppose I was always very greedy," he said. "I was never happy with what we had, and I was always looking for new opportunities."

Last autumn, a very different Sean Quinn stood outside a bankruptcy court in Belfast. He said he was an unwitting victim of the global financial panic that had led to Ireland's economic collapse.

"People like me were foolish enough to get stuck in the height of it, and borrowed too much money, believed in banks," he said.

For all his problems, Mr. Quinn remains a nearly legendary figure in the rural, predominantly Catholic borderlands that straddle Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. He brought jobs to a poor region once shaken by Irish Republican Army shootings and bombings.

Mr. Quinn has shaped a public narrative of himself as a billionaire with a common touch — a regular bloke who plays weekly penny-ante card games, shuns celebrity-studded affairs and plans to be buried at his home Catholic parish, St. Mary's Church, in Teemore, Northern Ireland, where he is a lifelong member of the Shamrocks Gaelic Football Club.

His daughter Aoife and her sister, Ciara Quinn, 35, say their father instilled in his family his relentless work ethic. During a two-hour interview in the Dublin office of their public relations representative, the sisters vigorously defended their father and said their family had unwittingly become enmeshed in his nightmare.

"My father tirelessly worked seven days a week and he built something real and lasting for a community on its knees," said Ciara Quinn, a trained nurse who worked in Mr. Quinn's insurance business until she was laid off in a systematic process that the children have labeled as "de-Quinning."

"My father has never taken a two-week holiday," she said. "Never."

Their mother, Patricia Quinn, unsuccessfully argued in court in December that she was not personally responsible for an unpaid 3 million euro loan. She said she had signed the loan documents without reading them and was influenced by her husband.

That prompted the judge, Peter Kelly, to quote Mr. Bumble, from "Oliver Twist," on the legal validity of alleged spousal ignorance: "If the law supposes that, then the law is an ass."

THE Quinns paint a picture of a trusting family that didn't know what it was getting into. But that's not quite the way executives see it at the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation.

"The Quinn family says the loans were illegal so therefore they shouldn't have to pay them back," said Mike Aynsley, the chief executive. "On the other hand, the bank is involved in a series of litigations that we are defending in multiple jurisdictions that are designed to take control of the assets away from the bank — and therefore from the taxpayers."

According to court documents and interviews, after the bank took control of the Quinn Group, clues emerged that Mr. Quinn and several of his trusted executives were preparing for the worst. The bankers already knew that Mr. Quinn often created layers of companies for tax advantages, conducting his purchases of Anglo Irish shares, for example, through a company registered in Madeira. The bankers searched for clues in unlikely places — including Gaelic football blogs because of Mr. Quinn's ties to the Shamrocks.

Mr. Dix, the new overseer at Quinn Holdings, said that at one point he was handed a document that had been created a few weeks before the bank stepped in. It was marked "strictly confidential," and had been created on a computer that was accessible to only five Quinn executives. Charting a new corporate structure called the Cranaghan Foundation, it appeared to set out a plan to put the company's international properties ultimately in the names of Mr. Quinn's young grandchildren. Then a Swedish law firm mistakenly sent a bill to Quinn Holdings' new leadership, revealing more about the plan, Mr. Woodhouse said.

"Our concern was this was a new structure put in place to hollow out companies that owned valuable assets and put them beyond the reach of the bank," Mr. Woodhouse said.

The name Cranaghan emerged in some of the litigation involving the Kutuzoff Tower in Moscow, whose ownership passed through a chain of four companies in Sweden, Cyprus and Russia. In Ukraine, the bank has encountered stiff resistance to taking over Ukraina, a Soviet-era shopping mall in Kiev. Ukraina's new chief executive has been barred from the administrative offices and there are two sets of security hired by the two different managements.

In the last few days, a judge in Kiev granted a $45.2 million claim against that property by a mysterious company named Lyndhurst Development Trading, which is based in the British Virgin Islands. The Irish bank called the judgment "a tool of legalized robbery by foreign investors." A court in Northern Ireland subsequently barred the claim, and a lawyer representing the bank promised to disclose evidence of fraud. Mr. Dix went as far as to appeal to Ukraine's prime minister. In November, Enda Kenny, the Irish prime minister, brought up the issue with Ukraine's president, Viktor Yanukovych.

The Quinns say they aren't involved in this battle — and that all the finger-pointing is part of a plot against the family by the bankers. They call the latest allegations in Northern Ireland "groundless."

"I know they have it out for my father, but they seem determined to bring all of my family down," Aoife Quinn said. "This is no longer about pursuing debts, but some vendetta."

The bankers say it's nothing personal. In more than 30 years in accounting and in business, Mr. Woodhouse said, he has never seen such a complicated clash over "obscene" debts.

Whatever the outcome, for many Irish — who ultimately are paying the bills — the old lyrics by Bob Dylan might sum it up best: "Come all without, come all within. You'll not see nothing like the mighty Quinn."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on January 10, 2012, 07:38:58 PM
Cry me a river ::)
Is he down to the last €100m yet?

Meanwhile a hundred or so, Mick & Mary Murphys  trek to the bankruptcy court every day, no basic civil right of an insolvency law to protect themselves with, their assets taken away but the debts stay eternal.

And still we hear, what purpose does it serve to hound a billionaire for the assets? sure what difference will it make to the national debt? Shouldn't we just continue with persecuting the poorer income sector so that Quinn and his like can have their billion in peace?



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 10, 2012, 07:54:19 PM
Your not really following this are you.. Today's judgement hasn't increased the chances of getting the money. It hasn't strengthened Anglos position on the foreign properties. It hasn't prevented The Quinns from protecting their assets. It just keeps SQ from going back into business for longer.

Hounding a Billionaire with assets? The kids have the assets. SQ declared his assets. Whether it's in the North or south it'll still amount to the same. Today's case makes no difference to that.

  Some people really don't seem to follow the whole process.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on January 10, 2012, 08:44:57 PM
It won't make a blind bit of difference apart from the main man's name staying off any important paperwork moving forward.

Now quote that line from sammymaguire in court ha ha  :P
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on January 10, 2012, 10:31:30 PM
Sean Quinn seems to have lost it a bit. Was on the news there saying he had never worked a day in his life in the South ???

Would agree that it wouldn't have taken a rocket scientist to have the lease and office in Derrylin sorted well before applying for bankruptcy in the North but then these are probably the same advisors who gave the great advice over CFDs.

Sean Quinn will be back in some shape or another, bankruptcy or not. Most of the money is well stashed at this stage.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mike Sheehy on January 11, 2012, 02:32:53 AM
Quote from: dec on January 10, 2012, 07:00:44 PM
He even made the front page of the New York Times Business section on Sunday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/business/sean-quinn-and-irelands-boom-and-bust.html


Was reading that last Sunday and had to laugh when I saw this...

"According to court documents and interviews, after the bank took control of the Quinn Group, clues emerged that Mr. Quinn and several of his trusted executives were preparing for the worst. The bankers already knew that Mr. Quinn often created layers of companies for tax advantages, conducting his purchases of Anglo Irish shares, for example, through a company registered in Madeira. The bankers searched for clues in unlikely places — including Gaelic football blogs because of Mr. Quinn's ties to the Shamrocks. "

So which one of you has put us at the center of a world financial scandal...?  :D

What was even funnier was the fact that the print version has "Gaelic soccer blogs"  ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 11, 2012, 10:25:53 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 10, 2012, 07:54:19 PM
Your not really following this are you.. Today's judgement hasn't increased the chances of getting the money. It hasn't strengthened Anglos position on the foreign properties. It hasn't prevented The Quinns from protecting their assets. It just keeps SQ from going back into business for longer.

Hounding a Billionaire with assets? The kids have the assets. SQ declared his assets. Whether it's in the North or south it'll still amount to the same. Today's case makes no difference to that.

  Some people really don't seem to follow the whole process.

Good. The longer he can be prevented from piling up another debt then running away from it, the better.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 03:44:02 PM
Yeah and the longer it will take to build 8000 new jobs and the taxes that will come along with that. You'll be waiting a long time for the government to do the same. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 04:06:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 03:44:02 PM
Yeah and the longer it will take to build 8000 new jobs and the taxes that will come along with that. You'll be waiting a long time for the government to do the same.

How long will it take us to repay the €2.8bn?

A lot longer than SQ will be out of directorships I'd bet

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 11, 2012, 04:07:52 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 04:06:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 03:44:02 PM
Yeah and the longer it will take to build 8000 new jobs and the taxes that will come along with that. You'll be waiting a long time for the government to do the same.

How long will it take us to repay the €2.8bn?

A lot longer than SQ will be out of directorships I'd bet

I have a toddler. His first tax contributions will go towards Anglo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 04:20:05 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 04:06:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 03:44:02 PM
Yeah and the longer it will take to build 8000 new jobs and the taxes that will come along with that. You'll be waiting a long time for the government to do the same.

How long will it take us to repay the €2.8bn?

A lot longer than SQ will be out of directorships I'd bet

SQ won't be in Directorship again.

It'll take a long time to clear the 2.8 Billion. Course it could have been cleared quicker but for the actions of the government and Anglo but sure what can you do.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 11, 2012, 04:51:56 PM
People are failing to understand That this was all AIBs doing themselves.

Yes Sean Quinn was greedy he admitted it himself but AIB lent this 2.8billion to Purchase shares in their own company. There is a major conflict of intrest here and this loan may not hold up under a court of law. I am surprised that this loan has not been queried in court yet
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 04:54:50 PM
It wouldn't have to be cleared at all if the richest man in Ireland isn't think he could double his cash on a quick deal. His excuse that the banks led him astray is ridiculous, imagine that someone that wanted you to buy into their plan only giving you the positives!!  :o

It appears SQ was cute enough to have his assets hid behind enough red tape that it will in all probably take the value of them and more to actually figure out where the assets are and how to get hold of them. But sure why worry its Anglos lawyers that are working to try and find it all and sure we're paying for that.
How people can forgive that is beyond me
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 11, 2012, 05:06:36 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 04:54:50 PM
It wouldn't have to be cleared at all if the richest man in Ireland isn't think he could double his cash on a quick deal. His excuse that the banks led him astray is ridiculous, imagine that someone that wanted you to buy into their plan only giving you the positives!!  :o

It appears SQ was cute enough to have his assets hid behind enough red tape that it will in all probably take the value of them and more to actually figure out where the assets are and how to get hold of them. But sure why worry its Anglos lawyers that are working to try and find it all and sure we're paying for that.
How people can forgive that is beyond me

Hiding assets is a common enough for big companies he probably got the advice from AIB. Banks in the south were well known for doing things like this
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 05:10:07 PM
It wouldn't have to be cleared if Anglo hadn't falsely represented their books by 7 Billion. That's not "only giving the positives", that's fraud. And from the sound of it the Government knew about it at the time. So that's state fraud.

I would say Anglo will struggle to make any money out of the foreign properties alright. Again that was their fault as if they had tried to work with SQ ( Especially considering his loans were preforming ones before Administration) Instead they tried the nuclear route and it's backfired on them and the government and that's going to result in the break up of the group and the loss of jobs in an area that can little afford to absorb them.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 06:09:11 PM
Here I'm in no way standing up for Anglo, they're a bunch of c***ts and the sooner we can prosecute for white collar crime the better but two wrongs and all that.

Quinn is no fool and playing the poor mouth doesn't really cut it when these assets are obviously still in the control of his family and/or associates. The man won't be needing the file anytime soon
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 11, 2012, 07:05:18 PM
What about the other side of Quinn. Currently he Quinn group employees 5500 people in Ireland and over 8000 worldwide. How many counties/areas have a home grown man that made as many jobs as this? In my lifetime the IDA created less than 50 jobs in Co Cavan. While I acknowledge Quinn made a severe f**k up I still maintain the country needs people like Quinn with the balls to set up companies and create jobs. What this ruling has done is prevent that happening for no good reason.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 11, 2012, 09:17:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 03:44:02 PM
Yeah and the longer it will take to build 8000 new jobs and the taxes that will come along with that. You'll be waiting a long time for the government to do the same.

A fantasy figure. Why not say 80,000 or 800,000, it'd only be marginally more preposterous
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 11, 2012, 09:35:20 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 04:54:50 PM
It appears SQ was cute enough to have his assets hid behind enough red tape that it will in all probably take the value of them and more to actually figure out where the assets are and how to get hold of them. But sure why worry its Anglos lawyers that are working to try and find it all and sure we're paying for that.
How people can forgive that is beyond me

Exactly. I remember when the balloon went up for Sean Quinn he was all over the press claiming he  accepted his mistakes and would pay everything he owed. Then as soon as the media cycle had moved on to the next n'er-do-well he proceeded to behave in a them-against-us manner that would make Alex Ferguson blush. The man is completely untrustworthy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 11, 2012, 10:15:44 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 11, 2012, 09:17:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 03:44:02 PM
Yeah and the longer it will take to build 8000 new jobs and the taxes that will come along with that. You'll be waiting a long time for the government to do the same.

A fantasy figure. Why not say 80,000 or 800,000, it'd only be marginally more preposterous

So all the jobs he created are a myth. If you ever go
To Fermanagh you would see what he created. Two of
My wife's family have him to thank for their jobs.

He may have been a del boy type character but he has done a lot, for a lot of people. He made mistakes and people are blaming him for aibs problems.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 10:43:29 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 11, 2012, 09:17:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 03:44:02 PM
Yeah and the longer it will take to build 8000 new jobs and the taxes that will come along with that. You'll be waiting a long time for the government to do the same.

A fantasy figure. Why not say 80,000 or 800,000, it'd only be marginally more preposterous

Care to explain that? Considering Your the first person to query that? He had 5500 in the group and near 3000 in the insurance. And that's before you take into account the self employed RCMs that worked for the insurance which at it's height would have been close to the 1000 mark. So I'd be interested in how you'd try and spin that as "preposterous".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 10:49:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 11, 2012, 09:35:20 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 04:54:50 PM
It appears SQ was cute enough to have his assets hid behind enough red tape that it will in all probably take the value of them and more to actually figure out where the assets are and how to get hold of them. But sure why worry its Anglos lawyers that are working to try and find it all and sure we're paying for that.
How people can forgive that is beyond me

Exactly. I remember when the balloon went up for Sean Quinn he was all over the press claiming he  accepted his mistakes and would pay everything he owed. Then as soon as the media cycle had moved on to the next n'er-do-well he proceeded to behave in a them-against-us manner that would make Alex Ferguson blush. The man is completely untrustworthy.

Sean Quinn had agreed to ring fence all profits from the Quinn group and insurance in order to pay back the loans. Anglo decided they could do a better job and ousted him. Is it any wonder he changed tact with regards working with them and decided to protect himself and his family. It was Anglo that dictated what route they were going to try and go regarding this. And it doesn't take a genius to work out that it's been one feck up after another.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 11, 2012, 10:57:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 10:43:29 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 11, 2012, 09:17:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 03:44:02 PM
Yeah and the longer it will take to build 8000 new jobs and the taxes that will come along with that. You'll be waiting a long time for the government to do the same.

A fantasy figure. Why not say 80,000 or 800,000, it'd only be marginally more preposterous

Care to explain that? Considering Your the first person to query that? He had 5500 in the group and near 3000 in the insurance. And that's before you take into account the self employed RCMs that worked for the insurance which at it's height would have been close to the 1000 mark. So I'd be interested in how you'd try and spin that as "preposterous".

You said 8,000 NEW jobs. Doing what? Trimming trees?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 11:05:15 PM
FFS I meant as in to replace the jobs he had created.  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 11, 2012, 11:05:50 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 10:49:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 11, 2012, 09:35:20 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 04:54:50 PM
It appears SQ was cute enough to have his assets hid behind enough red tape that it will in all probably take the value of them and more to actually figure out where the assets are and how to get hold of them. But sure why worry its Anglos lawyers that are working to try and find it all and sure we're paying for that.
How people can forgive that is beyond me

Exactly. I remember when the balloon went up for Sean Quinn he was all over the press claiming he  accepted his mistakes and would pay everything he owed. Then as soon as the media cycle had moved on to the next n'er-do-well he proceeded to behave in a them-against-us manner that would make Alex Ferguson blush. The man is completely untrustworthy.

Sean Quinn had agreed to ring fence all profits from the Quinn group and insurance in order to pay back the loans. Anglo decided they could do a better job and ousted him. Is it any wonder he changed tact with regards working with them and decided to protect himself and his family. It was Anglo that dictated what route they were going to try and go regarding this. And it doesn't take a genius to work out that it's been one feck up after another.

So Sean Quinn agreed he'd allow Quinn group profits to be used to pay off his debts as long as he could retain his lavish lifestyle. When that didn't prove possible - and why should it have, they didn't ask Seanie Fitzpatrick to fix Anglo - he decided he'd fight tooth-and-nail to retain his lavish lifestyle anyway. It's 'understandable' if you assume he's a narcissist who blames everyone but himself for his woes. Doesn't make it right though
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 11:11:49 PM
Well considering he believes he was done over by Anglo not once but twice I'd say he has fair reason to contest anything they do. The fact this is falling back on to the tax payers is irrelevant. That wasn't SQ's decision.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 11:11:49 PM
The fact this is falling back on to the tax payers is irrelevant. That wasn't SQ's decision.

It's SQs decision to screw us now though, he knows it's the taxpayer that will end up paying his bill and he is doing f**k all to help us. So for the Republic that's 2000 odd jobs in the insurance industry (that may have been created anyway by another company if the gap was there) for €2.8bn.
Them 2000 will have to pay a lot of tax!
To me SQ has destroyed his good name in Ireland and is as bad and worse than the rest like Seanie Fitz and Bertie
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 11, 2012, 11:44:32 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 11:11:49 PM
The fact this is falling back on to the tax payers is irrelevant. That wasn't SQ's decision.

It's SQs decision to screw us now though, he knows it's the taxpayer that will end up paying his bill and he is doing f**k all to help us. So for the Republic that's 2000 odd jobs in the insurance industry (that may have been created anyway by another company if the gap was there) for €2.8bn.
Them 2000 will have to pay a lot of tax!
To me SQ has destroyed his good name in Ireland and is as bad and worse than the rest like Seanie Fitz and Bertie

Can you explain the 1st line of your post because it makes no sense. Do you have any idea what your talking about?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 11:47:41 PM
SQ isn't paying what he owes, or what he can pay, to Anglo, whose pocket will this money come out of?
Whose pocket does SQ think it will come ours of?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 11, 2012, 11:51:10 PM
He is bankrupt, do you know what that means? Wipe the froth away from your mouth and calm down.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 11:55:03 PM
So there are no assets left at all? Nothing overseas? Nothing transferred to family?

And you can leave out the comments about calming down and knowing nothing this time, good lad
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 07:23:48 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 11:11:49 PM
The fact this is falling back on to the tax payers is irrelevant. That wasn't SQ's decision.

It's SQs decision to screw us now though, he knows it's the taxpayer that will end up paying his bill and he is doing f**k all to help us. So for the Republic that's 2000 odd jobs in the insurance industry (that may have been created anyway by another company if the gap was there) for €2.8bn.
Them 2000 will have to pay a lot of tax!
To me SQ has destroyed his good name in Ireland and is as bad and worse than the rest like Seanie Fitz and Bertie

Did you expect SQ to drop it just because of the bank gurantee? He believes he's he was done over by Anglo. As I said before, the fact that the state( who it would seem were up in their necks in it as well) nationalised that dept doesn't change that.
I have no doubt whatever reputation SQ has is gone. And I can understand that the tax payers hate him. Because most will only look at the effect on them to make their judgement and not wether or not SQ has a case.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on January 12, 2012, 07:30:39 AM
Of course he should have the right to take a case against Anglo/IBRC - I don't think anyone's saying he shouldn't. The point is that running off and claiming bankruptcy in another country while sellling multi million euro companies in exchange for a laptop aren't the actions of someone looking to save their good name - they're the actions of a weasel looking to play whatever trick he can to let he and his family keep assets that don't belong to him by right.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 08:18:40 AM
See what I mean about people not following things and taking the state's/ Anglo words in the media.

SQ didn't run away to NI to get bankruptcy. He had his centre of interests in NI for 38 years. It was Anglo who were getting the ruling on a technicality, the fact that at the point of Bankruptcy he had no point of interest in the North ( A huge feck up by his solicitors I would imagine). What you don't seem able to understand is that if the Quinn Group had went bust, He would have been bankrupted in the North. If Anglo hadn't denied him access to his office he would have been bankrupt in the North.
Some people follow the Anglo word Hook, line and sinker. And again whether North or South it makes no difference to the chances of recovering the money.

As for the transferring of assets, of course he's going to do that. The assets are in the kids names. At the minute Anglo should have no say over them and the Quinns can do what they like to protect themselves from Anglo especially considering the latest action* they have taken in Ireland here and all with the State's protection ( Wonder why that is?)

The Quinns are right to do whatever they can in areas away from Irish jurisdiction as they are getting no justice here for it and nor will they ever. So if they are getting rulings in areas without the state influence then fair play and I hope it works.

* I'll not go into this just yet, when or if it comes out I'll refer back to it.  :-X
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on January 12, 2012, 11:22:07 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 08:18:40 AM
See what I mean about people not following things and taking the state's/ Anglo words in the media.

SQ didn't run away to NI to get bankruptcy. He had his centre of interests in NI for 38 years. It was Anglo who were getting the ruling on a technicality, the fact that at the point of Bankruptcy he had no point of interest in the North ( A huge feck up by his solicitors I would imagine). What you don't seem able to understand is that if the Quinn Group had went bust, He would have been bankrupted in the North. If Anglo hadn't denied him access to his office he would have been bankrupt in the North.
Some people follow the Anglo word Hook, line and sinker. And again whether North or South it makes no difference to the chances of recovering the money.

As for the transferring of assets, of course he's going to do that. The assets are in the kids names. At the minute Anglo should have no say over them and the Quinns can do what they like to protect themselves from Anglo especially considering the latest action* they have taken in Ireland here and all with the State's protection ( Wonder why that is?)

The Quinns are right to do whatever they can in areas away from Irish jurisdiction as they are getting no justice here for it and nor will they ever. So if they are getting rulings in areas without the state influence then fair play and I hope it works.

* I'll not go into this just yet, when or if it comes out I'll refer back to it.  :-X

I agree with you Sarsfields. People will believe whatever Anglo/Nama/the government feed them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on January 12, 2012, 11:41:56 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 08:18:40 AM
See what I mean about people not following things and taking the state's/ Anglo words in the media.

SQ didn't run away to NI to get bankruptcy. He had his centre of interests in NI for 38 years. It was Anglo who were getting the ruling on a technicality, the fact that at the point of Bankruptcy he had no point of interest in the North ( A huge feck up by his solicitors I would imagine). What you don't seem able to understand is that if the Quinn Group had went bust, He would have been bankrupted in the North. If Anglo hadn't denied him access to his office he would have been bankrupt in the North.
Some people follow the Anglo word Hook, line and sinker. And again whether North or South it makes no difference to the chances of recovering the money.

As for the transferring of assets, of course he's going to do that. The assets are in the kids names. At the minute Anglo should have no say over them and the Quinns can do what they like to protect themselves from Anglo especially considering the latest action* they have taken in Ireland here and all with the State's protection ( Wonder why that is?)

The Quinns are right to do whatever they can in areas away from Irish jurisdiction as they are getting no justice here for it and nor will they ever. So if they are getting rulings in areas without the state influence then fair play and I hope it works.

* I'll not go into this just yet, when or if it comes out I'll refer back to it.  :-X

That's a pretty clear statement that you feel the Irish courts are corrupt. I hate a lot of things about this diseased state but if you genuinely believe that then we'd all be as well off shipping out.

Seriously, do you get the gravity of what you've just said?


As for the transferring of assets, we've covered all that and I think it's fair to say we're of very different views, so we won't go into it again.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 11:57:59 AM
I understand it surely LS and I stand by it. It's unusal that the success that the Quinns are having in this fight is in areas were the Irish Government have no authority on the legal system.

But as you've said we're signing of different hymn sheets and I don't think either of us are going to change our views on the whole process.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 12, 2012, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 07:23:48 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 11:11:49 PM
The fact this is falling back on to the tax payers is irrelevant. That wasn't SQ's decision.

It's SQs decision to screw us now though, he knows it's the taxpayer that will end up paying his bill and he is doing f**k all to help us. So for the Republic that's 2000 odd jobs in the insurance industry (that may have been created anyway by another company if the gap was there) for €2.8bn.
Them 2000 will have to pay a lot of tax!
To me SQ has destroyed his good name in Ireland and is as bad and worse than the rest like Seanie Fitz and Bertie

As I said before, the fact that the state( who it would seem were up in their necks in it as well) nationalised that dept doesn't change that.

What do u mean by this? It's a fairly hefty statement without anything to back it up. Personally it FF never got back into power it would be too soon but to claim that Cowen or Lenihan acted on anything other than what they thought to be the country's best interests is outrageous and a besmirch on a statesman grave, I'd suggest you clarify or retract
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on January 12, 2012, 12:08:36 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 12, 2012, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 07:23:48 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 11:11:49 PM
The fact this is falling back on to the tax payers is irrelevant. That wasn't SQ's decision.

It's SQs decision to screw us now though, he knows it's the taxpayer that will end up paying his bill and he is doing f**k all to help us. So for the Republic that's 2000 odd jobs in the insurance industry (that may have been created anyway by another company if the gap was there) for €2.8bn.
Them 2000 will have to pay a lot of tax!
To me SQ has destroyed his good name in Ireland and is as bad and worse than the rest like Seanie Fitz and Bertie

As I said before, the fact that the state( who it would seem were up in their necks in it as well) nationalised that dept doesn't change that.

What do u mean by this? It's a fairly hefty statement without anything to back it up. Personally it FF never got back into power it would be too soon but to claim that Cowen or Lenihan acted on anything other than what they thought to be the country's best interests is outrageous and a besmirch on a statesman grave, I'd suggest you clarify or retract

Do you honestly believe that Cowen/Lenihan etc acted with the State's best interests at heart all the time?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 12:15:58 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 12, 2012, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 07:23:48 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 11:11:49 PM
The fact this is falling back on to the tax payers is irrelevant. That wasn't SQ's decision.

It's SQs decision to screw us now though, he knows it's the taxpayer that will end up paying his bill and he is doing f**k all to help us. So for the Republic that's 2000 odd jobs in the insurance industry (that may have been created anyway by another company if the gap was there) for €2.8bn.
Them 2000 will have to pay a lot of tax!
To me SQ has destroyed his good name in Ireland and is as bad and worse than the rest like Seanie Fitz and Bertie

As I said before, the fact that the state( who it would seem were up in their necks in it as well) nationalised that dept doesn't change that.

What do u mean by this? It's a fairly hefty statement without anything to back it up. Personally it FF never got back into power it would be too soon but to claim that Cowen or Lenihan acted on anything other than what they thought to be the country's best interests is outrageous and a besmirch on a statesman grave, I'd suggest you clarify or retract

Seriously are you not keeping up with things? "

Allegedly by Drumm and Seanie Fitz the Government had full knowledge regarding the Maple 10 deal and were involved in getting it put through. And it would look "likely" that the government either knew or worse were involved in some way with the transferring of the 7 billion onto Anglo's books.

But as I know I'd be viewed as Pro Quinn ( And I fully accept that) so I'd refer you back to Muppet's post a few pages back on the Bail out thread regarding this.

So I won't be retracting anything and I hope that clarifies that for you.

I never said that either leinhan or Cowen acted in anything other than the interests of the country. But it would seem pretty obvious that that included dodgy dealings as much as anything else. If you believe they were whiter than white then I would politely suggest that you are being very naive
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on January 12, 2012, 01:41:24 PM
With anglo been nationalised it certainly seems as though its sins are been hidden. It seems to me the fact is Anglo was being run by complete cowboys, and was issuing loans it never should have been issuing,including the ones to Quinn to prop up its own share price.

Had it not been nationalised, I would say that most fair minded people would have a hell of an amount of sympathy for Quinn, and would think hes right to protect his assets as it seems apparent he was screwed. However, as it was nationalised, the spin now is that Quinn owes the taxpayer this money, so everyones up in arms, regardless of the fact that it seems this money was immorally if not illegally lent in the first place
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 02:00:33 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 12, 2012, 01:41:24 PM
With anglo been nationalised it certainly seems as though its sins are been hidden. It seems to me the fact is Anglo was being run by complete cowboys, and was issuing loans it never should have been issuing,including the ones to Quinn to prop up its own share price.

Had it not been nationalised, I would say that most fair minded people would have a hell of an amount of sympathy for Quinn, and would think hes right to protect his assets as it seems apparent he was screwed. However, as it was nationalised, the spin now is that Quinn owes the taxpayer this money, so everyones up in arms, regardless of the fact that it seems this money was immorally if not illegally lent in the first place

With this whole affair I cant understand why Sean Quinn has not taken AIB to court over this loan. If the books were doctored as previously stated then this loan would not be enforceable by AIB as this would be in breach of quite a lot of bank regulations
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 02:04:36 PM
Case has been lodged as far as I know. One of a couple of cases to be heard over 2012 - 2013.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on January 12, 2012, 02:08:41 PM
Why would any sane person take out a loan of €2.8Bn to buy pieces of paper?
Why would any sane person take a loan off abank to buy shares in that bank and not smell a rat?
Maybe he's as stupid as his wife claimed to be  ::)

A case of gold fever clouding judgements it would seem.

Anyway when I see the house SQ is living in I just wish I was a broke as he is  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 12, 2012, 02:21:06 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 12:15:58 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 12, 2012, 12:03:38 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 07:23:48 AM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2012, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 11, 2012, 11:11:49 PM
The fact this is falling back on to the tax payers is irrelevant. That wasn't SQ's decision.

It's SQs decision to screw us now though, he knows it's the taxpayer that will end up paying his bill and he is doing f**k all to help us. So for the Republic that's 2000 odd jobs in the insurance industry (that may have been created anyway by another company if the gap was there) for €2.8bn.
Them 2000 will have to pay a lot of tax!
To me SQ has destroyed his good name in Ireland and is as bad and worse than the rest like Seanie Fitz and Bertie

As I said before, the fact that the state( who it would seem were up in their necks in it as well) nationalised that dept doesn't change that.

What do u mean by this? It's a fairly hefty statement without anything to back it up. Personally it FF never got back into power it would be too soon but to claim that Cowen or Lenihan acted on anything other than what they thought to be the country's best interests is outrageous and a besmirch on a statesman grave, I'd suggest you clarify or retract

Seriously are you not keeping up with things? "

Allegedly by Drumm and Seanie Fitz the Government had full knowledge regarding the Maple 10 deal and were involved in getting it put through. And it would look "likely" that the government either knew or worse were involved in some way with the transferring of the 7 billion onto Anglo's books.

It clarifies nothing for me, you suggested (the bit in bold) that nationalising Anglo was due to the state being up to their necks, the transferring of the 7 billion was a different episode, apparently I'm not the only one not keeping up  :-\

To answer Fanko, absolutely not but I do think the bank guarantee was done in good faith, I don't nor ever have agreed with it or NAMA but there you go.

Either way this is all muddying the water around SQ ensuring that him and his family continue to live in the manner they've been come accustomed to while ordinary eijits like me pay for it. But according to some on here the jobs he created entitle him to hold onto some of his assets, I disagree, bankrupt should mean bankrupt
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 02:36:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 12, 2012, 02:08:41 PM
Anyway when I see the house SQ is living in I just wish I was a broke as he is  ::)

:D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 02:43:26 PM
How exactly was the fact that the Government "may" have been involved in the transferring of 7Billion on a bank's balance sheet that subsequently had to be privatised slipping past you?

I love the way when people are making a case for SQ it's muddying the waters but when Anglo and the state are giving their side it's all fine and dandy.

Some people will believe what they want. And as I've said before some people won't look past what way it's affecting them in their own pocket rather than taking a bit of time to research into it and get the whole story.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 12, 2012, 02:44:51 PM
This thread has gone all over the place.

Firstly regarding Quinn blaming Anglo, it appears he does. But many of the Anglo click blame Quinn for bringing down Anglo. As a taxpayer I have little time for any of them, they are all to blame.

Secondly regarding the participation of the State, there appears to be specific allegations made by David Drumm and in particular Denis Casey formerly of IL&P. They seem to suggest that the relevant people were in the know at all times, in particular regarding the IL&P loans to Anglo. It isn't unreasonable to assume they are talking about the Regulator and/or the Minister at the very least. It is inexplicable that there has been no charges yet and it doesn't take a giant leap to guess why, besmirching or no besmirching. (Q: Why were IL&P apparently happy to give a €7.4bn loan to Anglo [of all people] 2 weeks after Lehmans collapsed, when no bank on earth would lend to any other bank?)

Finally, back to Quinn. He gambled more than he could afford. He put the futures of his companies, his staff, their dependents and their communities on the hook, all on one bet. His supporters whinging about Anglo might do well to ask what sort of due diligence SQ had done before he laid his bet on Anglo. If I lost everything I and my mates owned on a dud horse, I would be delighted if those mates blamed the owners of the donkey.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: HiMucker on January 12, 2012, 03:12:19 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 12, 2012, 02:44:51 PM
This thread has gone all over the place.

Firstly regarding Quinn blaming Anglo, it appears he does. But many of the Anglo click blame Quinn for bringing down Anglo. As a taxpayer I have little time for any of them, they are all to blame.

Secondly regarding the participation of the State, there appears to be specific allegations made by David Drumm and in particular Denis Casey formerly of IL&P. They seem to suggest that the relevant people were in the know at all times, in particular regarding the IL&P loans to Anglo. It isn't unreasonable to assume they are talking about the Regulator and/or the Minister at the very least. It is inexplicable that there has been no charges yet and it doesn't take a giant leap to guess why, besmirching or no besmirching. (Q: Why were IL&P apparently happy to give a €7.4bn loan to Anglo [of all people] 2 weeks after Lehmans collapsed, when no bank on earth would lend to any other bank?)

Finally, back to Quinn. He gambled more than he could afford. He put the futures of his companies, his staff, their dependents and their communities on the hook, all on one bet. His supporters whinging about Anglo might do well to ask what sort of due diligence SQ had done before he laid his bet on Anglo. If I lost everything I and my mates owned on a dud horse, I would be delighted if those mates blamed the owners of the donkey.
:D I enjoyed this analogy.

I dont feel sorry for SQ(never feel sorry for someone that owns(owned ???) his own plane) as for the life of me I cannot understand why a billionaire :o would gamble more than he can afford to lose.  But as a previous poster said, you cant blame SQ for hiding his assets as it looks like he was being screwed by Anglo in the first place who most likely new they were going tits up and gave false information regarding investment which is illegal.  The people up in arms about SQ hiding assets are mad for one reason, deep down, they just wish they could get their snout into that trough, and I am know different, wish I was fiver behind SQ.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:24:51 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 12, 2012, 03:12:19 PM
The people up in arms about SQ hiding assets are mad for one reason, deep down, they just wish they could get their snout into that trough, and I am know different, wish I was fiver behind SQ.

Shucks, I wish I had been in London during the riots. I could have had myself some expensive runners
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 03:27:15 PM
Well a load of left ones anyway.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: HiMucker on January 12, 2012, 03:28:43 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:24:51 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 12, 2012, 03:12:19 PM
The people up in arms about SQ hiding assets are mad for one reason, deep down, they just wish they could get their snout into that trough, and I am know different, wish I was fiver behind SQ.

Shucks, I wish I had been in London during the riots. I could have had myself some expensive runners
Unlike Muppets this is a terrible analogy :)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:33:06 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 12, 2012, 03:28:43 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:24:51 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 12, 2012, 03:12:19 PM
The people up in arms about SQ hiding assets are mad for one reason, deep down, they just wish they could get their snout into that trough, and I am know different, wish I was fiver behind SQ.

Shucks, I wish I had been in London during the riots. I could have had myself some expensive runners
Unlike Muppets this is a terrible analogy :)

Harsh but fair ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 03:35:26 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:24:51 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 12, 2012, 03:12:19 PM
The people up in arms about SQ hiding assets are mad for one reason, deep down, they just wish they could get their snout into that trough, and I am know different, wish I was fiver behind SQ.

Shucks, I wish I had been in London during the riots. I could have had myself some expensive runners

Deiseach

you seem to have a major problem with Sean Quinn. This is a man who has invested millions in his local community a life time member of his GAA club. This is a man who saved a county loosing massive amount of young people abroad and to the south because they could not get a job at home.

Sean Quinn made mistakes (he admitted it himself) he had a plan in place to pay this loan off with AIB rejected. People are complaining that he will pay back the goverment any money.

The question should be asked why did AIB turn down the offer of a repayment plan by Sean Quinn
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:40:02 PM
Quote from: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 03:35:26 PM
Deiseach

you seem to have a major problem with Sean Quinn. This is a man who has invested millions in his local community a life time member of his GAA club. This is a man who saved a county loosing massive amount of young people abroad and to the south because they could not get a job at home.

Sean Quinn made mistakes (he admitted it himself) he had a plan in place to pay this loan off with AIB rejected. People are complaining that he will pay back the goverment any money.

The question should be asked why did AIB turn down the offer of a repayment plan by Sean Quinn

I have a major problem with Seán Quinn. He is not paying his debts, I'm paying them for him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 03:50:10 PM
Sean Quinn attempted to pay his debts AIB left him no option but to declare himself bankrupt

What about all the property developers who have had their assets transfered to Nama who have not made any attempts to pay of their debts
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:50:56 PM
I'll put is as simply as this with respect to Seán Quinn. It seems to me that he is willing to pay back his debts as long as he does not suffer any diminution of his personal wealth and lifestyle. Forget about the money he borrowed to buy Anglo shares, he didn't even think the money he borrowed to refurbish his house should have to be paid back! And none of his defenders on here seem to be disputing this. If anything, they seem to be egging him on as he creates ever more elaborate Chinese walls to protect his wealth. And I find that profoundly depressing
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:51:34 PM
Quote from: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 03:50:10 PM
What about all the property developers who have had their assets transfered to Nama who have not made any attempts to pay of their debts

I'd happily seem them all screwed to the wall too.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on January 12, 2012, 03:54:41 PM
Quote from: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 03:35:26 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:24:51 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 12, 2012, 03:12:19 PM
The people up in arms about SQ hiding assets are mad for one reason, deep down, they just wish they could get their snout into that trough, and I am know different, wish I was fiver behind SQ.

Shucks, I wish I had been in London during the riots. I could have had myself some expensive runners

Deiseach

you seem to have a major problem with Sean Quinn. This is a man who has invested millions in his local community a life time member of his GAA club. This is a man who saved a county loosing massive amount of young people abroad and to the south because they could not get a job at home.

Sean Quinn made mistakes (he admitted it himself) he had a plan in place to pay this loan off with AIB rejected. People are complaining that he will pay back the goverment any money.

The question should be asked why did AIB turn down the offer of a repayment plan by Sean Quinn

Does this earn him some sort of immunity?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:50:56 PM
I'll put is as simply as this with respect to Seán Quinn. It seems to me that he is willing to pay back his debts as long as he does not suffer any diminution of his personal wealth and lifestyle. Forget about the money he borrowed to buy Anglo shares, he didn't even think the money he borrowed to refurbish his house should have to be paid back! And none of his defenders on here seem to be disputing this. If anything, they seem to be egging him on as he creates ever more elaborate Chinese walls to protect his wealth. And I find that profoundly depressing

The biggest problem is a lot of companies are working the same way as Sean Quinn worked. They place their assets in different names to help reduce the tax bill. The governments need to look at a way of stopping this to help increase tax revenue
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 03:59:17 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 12, 2012, 03:54:41 PM
Quote from: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 03:35:26 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:24:51 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on January 12, 2012, 03:12:19 PM
The people up in arms about SQ hiding assets are mad for one reason, deep down, they just wish they could get their snout into that trough, and I am know different, wish I was fiver behind SQ.

Shucks, I wish I had been in London during the riots. I could have had myself some expensive runners

Deiseach

you seem to have a major problem with Sean Quinn. This is a man who has invested millions in his local community a life time member of his GAA club. This is a man who saved a county loosing massive amount of young people abroad and to the south because they could not get a job at home.

Sean Quinn made mistakes (he admitted it himself) he had a plan in place to pay this loan off with AIB rejected. People are complaining that he will pay back the goverment any money.

The question should be asked why did AIB turn down the offer of a repayment plan by Sean Quinn

Does this earn him some sort of immunity?

No it was in respect to the work he done in his local community
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:05:18 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 03:40:02 PM
Quote from: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 03:35:26 PM
Deiseach

you seem to have a major problem with Sean Quinn. This is a man who has invested millions in his local community a life time member of his GAA club. This is a man who saved a county loosing massive amount of young people abroad and to the south because they could not get a job at home.

Sean Quinn made mistakes (he admitted it himself) he had a plan in place to pay this loan off with AIB rejected. People are complaining that he will pay back the goverment any money.

The question should be asked why did AIB turn down the offer of a repayment plan by Sean Quinn

I have a major problem with Seán Quinn. He is not paying his debts, I'm paying them for him.

That wantn't his decision and yet it's what it always falls back to. The fact you are out a few pound in your back pocket is more important than whether or not SQ has a case. Which is what I've been saying for a while now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:05:18 PM
That wantn't his decision and yet it's what it always falls back to. The fact you are out a few pound in your back pocket is more important than whether or not SQ has a case. Which is what I've been saying for a while now.

If it were "a few pound", I'd probably let it slide. But it isn't "a few pound". As I said earlier, this is a man who doesn't feel obliged to pay back a £3 million loan he took out to refurbish his house. All the protestations of what an honest man he is founder on that simple example
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on January 12, 2012, 04:18:54 PM
I hate this thing of how you have to be either "for us or against us".

The directors of Anglo Irish bank were stinking, rotten greedy traitors who pulled all sorts of trickery to cook the books, and undoubtedly are continuing to do so.

The government acted with either spectacular idiocy or else with treasonous intent in putting in place the universal blanket bank guarantee.

Irish developers hiding assets in the names of the relatives and spouses should have any assets purchased with borrowed money  seized, no matter who owns them now. The new purchaser of the asset could be compensated to the tune of whatever consideration they paid for it. In most cases that's little or nothing. I've a second hand lap top here, I'll happily donate that to the state if we'll get back the company that was traded for a laptop belonging to Sean Quinn.

Above all, the regulator was asleep at the wheel and thus was either the most grossly incompetent or else utterly corrupt individual ever to hold such a high office in the history of the state.


HOWEVER

It is possible to hold all these views and still think that Seán Quinn is a selfish, stroke pulling cheat who as was pointed out above, is full of solutions that involve him and his family continuing to live with assets and an income stream the likes of which normal Irish people can never imagine possessing.



If the courts of this land declare that Seán Quinn should be allowed to keep any of his assets, then I'll have no qualm or quibble with that decision, and certainly I'd like to see these things ruled on, rather than decided in the court of public opinion. However I despise this idea that SQ should be given a free pass to feather the nests of his family as a safety net in case he doesn't get the decision from the court that he thinks he should.

As for the argument that one poster made about the North being his genuine centre of interest, I think this says all that needs to be said about that. Or maybe the Irish government has influence in her majesty's courtroom as well?

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/sean-quinn-northern-ireland-bankruptcy-order-annulled-by-belfast-judge/ (http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/sean-quinn-northern-ireland-bankruptcy-order-annulled-by-belfast-judge/)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:20:34 PM
It's a few pound out of your pocket, collectively it's obviously more.

The £3million loan is no different than the loans that were meant to be for "Foreign properties" They weren't for that purpose. The loan wasn't used to refurbish SQ's house as was shown in court. It was for the same as the rest of the loans to prop up share prices.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 12, 2012, 04:18:54 PM
I hate this thing of how you have to be either "for us or against us".

The directors of Anglo Irish bank were stinking, rotten greedy traitors who pulled all sorts of trickery to cook the books, and undoubtedly are continuing to do so.

The government acted with either spectacular idiocy or else with treasonous intent in putting in place the universal blanket bank guarantee.

Irish developers hiding assets in the names of the relatives and spouses should have any assets purchased with borrowed money  seized, no matter who owns them now. The new purchaser of the asset could be compensated to the tune of whatever consideration they paid for it. In most cases that's little or nothing. I've a second hand lap top here, I'll happily donate that to the state if we'll get back the company that was traded for a laptop belonging to Sean Quinn.

Above all, the regulator was asleep at the wheel and thus was either the most grossly incompetent or else utterly corrupt individual ever to hold such a high office in the history of the state.


HOWEVER

It is possible to hold all these views and still think that Seán Quinn is a selfish, stroke pulling cheat who as was pointed out above, is full of solutions that involve him and his family continuing to live with assets and an income stream the likes of which normal Irish people can never imagine possessing.



If the courts of this land declare that Seán Quinn should be allowed to keep any of his assets, then I'll have no qualm or quibble with that decision, and certainly I'd like to see these things ruled on, rather than decided in the court of public opinion. However I despise this idea that SQ should be given a free pass to feather the nests of his family as a safety net in case he doesn't get the decision from the court that he thinks he should.

As for the argument that one poster made about the North being his genuine centre of interest, I think this says all that needs to be said about that. Or maybe the Irish government has influence in her majesty's courtroom as well?

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/sean-quinn-northern-ireland-bankruptcy-order-annulled-by-belfast-judge/ (http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/sean-quinn-northern-ireland-bankruptcy-order-annulled-by-belfast-judge/)

What exactly is it in that article that I'm meant to be looking at that would conflict with the North being SQ's centre of main interests for 38 years?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:20:34 PM
It's a few pound out of your pocket, collectively it's obviously more.

Define 'few'

Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:20:34 PM
The £3million loan is no different than the loans that were meant to be for "Foreign properties" They weren't for that purpose. The loan wasn't used to refurbish SQ's house as was shown in court. It was for the same as the rest of the loans to prop up share prices.

If that were the case, then Seán Quinn was a party to the criminality.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:33:45 PM
Can't remember but I think someone worked it out back a few pages on this thread.

If that were the case, then Seán Quinn was a party to the criminality.

That seems to be the case alright.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:33:45 PM
That seems to be the case alright.

And you're okay with that?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on January 12, 2012, 04:40:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
What exactly is it in that article that I'm meant to be looking at that would conflict with the North being SQ's centre of main interests for 38 years?

- Sean didn't disclose in his bankruptcy application that he had an Irish passport and didn't have a UK passport, didn't disclose that he is registered to vote in the Republic

- Judge says Sean was hesitant in disclosing details of new business ventures after Quinn group receivership and concludes "on balance of probabilities" lease document on office in Derrylin, Fermanagh was prepared after date claimed by Sean Quinn and was designed to bolster Sean's present arguments about his centre of main interest being in Northern Ireland

Are those the actions of a man looking to paint an accurate picture of his situation?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:43:53 PM
No. And I'm sure that he'll receive punishment with regards that when the time comes (Court cases)

But it still leaves the loans illegitimate. Did you never ask why Anglo lent a man who had no assets in his name £2.8 Billion?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 04:44:28 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 12, 2012, 04:40:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
What exactly is it in that article that I'm meant to be looking at that would conflict with the North being SQ's centre of main interests for 38 years?

- Sean didn't disclose in his bankruptcy application that he had an Irish passport and didn't have a UK passport, didn't disclose that he is registered to vote in the Republic

- Judge says Sean was hesitant in disclosing details of new business ventures after Quinn group receivership and concludes "on balance of probabilities" lease document on office in Derrylin, Fermanagh was prepared after date claimed by Sean Quinn and was designed to bolster Sean's present arguments about his centre of main interest being in Northern Ireland

Are those the actions of a man looking to paint an accurate picture of his situation?

I think the judge was being very, um, judicious.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 04:47:35 PM
He who has not sinned can cast the first stone.

The good he did to the area MASSIVELY outweighs the misdemeanors he may have committed. I have yet to meet a Saint in Irish business. Leave it at that lads.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 04:49:26 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:43:53 PM
No. And I'm sure that he'll receive punishment with regards that when the time comes (Court cases)

But it still leaves the loans illegitimate. Did you never ask why Anglo lent a man who had no assets in his name £2.8 Billion?

I think we can all agree that what went on in Anglo was bent. But where we differ is in thinking that some of the perpetrators of this bentness should be given licence to go out and be bent again. That's what letting Seán Quinn off the hook for his actions would be. Moral hazard has to come into play here
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Puckoon on January 12, 2012, 04:49:39 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 04:47:35 PM
He who has not sinned can cast the first stone.

The good he did to the area MASSIVELY outweighs the misdemeanors he may have committed. I have yet to meet a Saint in Irish business. Leave it at that lads.

Just a hunch, but I imagine a resounding "NO", to that request.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 04:47:35 PM
He who has not sinned can cast the first stone.

The good he did to the area MASSIVELY outweighs the misdemeanors he may have committed. I have yet to meet a Saint in Irish business. Leave it at that lads.

::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 12, 2012, 04:51:05 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0112/1224310141422.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0112/1224310141422.html)

Slight tangent here but there was a case in the papers yesterday involving a family of Lynches who thought a €26m AIB loan was non-recourse but found out later it wasn't.

He [the judge] found the family genuinely but mistakenly believed the AIB loan was non-recourse, meaning the bank's recourse was confined to the lands, but rejected their [Lynches] claims that AIB negligently misrepresented that the loan was non-recourse.

He also found that while a solicitor with LK Shields had wrongly advised the Lynchs that the final loan facility letter was non-recourse, the scope of the firm's duty of care to them did not extend to making it liable for the loan.


Even though the judge accepted that they family were not only unaware of the recourse aspect of the loan, but he agreed that a solicitor in LK Sheilds had wrongly advised them of that. Despite all that they were still on the hook for the loan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:52:12 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 12, 2012, 04:40:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
What exactly is it in that article that I'm meant to be looking at that would conflict with the North being SQ's centre of main interests for 38 years?

- Sean didn't disclose in his bankruptcy application that he had an Irish passport and didn't have a UK passport, didn't disclose that he is registered to vote in the Republic

- Judge says Sean was hesitant in disclosing details of new business ventures after Quinn group receivership and concludes "on balance of probabilities" lease document on office in Derrylin, Fermanagh was prepared after date claimed by Sean Quinn and was designed to bolster Sean's present arguments about his centre of main interest being in Northern Ireland

Are those the actions of a man looking to paint an accurate picture of his situation?

Again i'm struggling to see what point your trying to make. His point of interest for 38 years was the North. If the Quinn group had went bust, he would have been bankrupted in the north, if Anglo hadn't denied him access to the Head office, he would have been bankrupted in the North. therefore those trying to paint this picture of him running north to go bankrupt are wide of the mark. He was born in the north, is going to be buried in the north (Surprisingly this all matters). The fact that he had an irish passport doesn't mean he can't be from the north. It was hardly staggering that he opted for the north for the bankruptcy.
The only reason it was overturned was because the judge didn't believe that the office in Derrylin was actually in place before he applied for bankruptcy ( I'd agree that it more than likely wasn't which was a huge feck up by SQ's solicitors). Had it been it wouldn't have been overturned.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 05:01:00 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on January 12, 2012, 04:49:39 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 04:47:35 PM
He who has not sinned can cast the first stone.

The good he did to the area MASSIVELY outweighs the misdemeanors he may have committed. I have yet to meet a Saint in Irish business. Leave it at that lads.

Just a hunch, but I imagine a resounding "NO", to that request.

Ok let's keep her lit folks ha ha!!

Deiseach, all entrepreneurs like to bend the rules right, push the boundaries and all that??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 12, 2012, 05:08:38 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:52:12 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 12, 2012, 04:40:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
What exactly is it in that article that I'm meant to be looking at that would conflict with the North being SQ's centre of main interests for 38 years?

- Sean didn't disclose in his bankruptcy application that he had an Irish passport and didn't have a UK passport, didn't disclose that he is registered to vote in the Republic

- Judge says Sean was hesitant in disclosing details of new business ventures after Quinn group receivership and concludes "on balance of probabilities" lease document on office in Derrylin, Fermanagh was prepared after date claimed by Sean Quinn and was designed to bolster Sean's present arguments about his centre of main interest being in Northern Ireland

Are those the actions of a man looking to paint an accurate picture of his situation?

Again i'm struggling to see what point your trying to make. His point of interest for 38 years was the North. If the Quinn group had went bust, he would have been bankrupted in the north, if Anglo hadn't denied him access to the Head office, he would have been bankrupted in the North. therefore those trying to paint this picture of him running north to go bankrupt are wide of the mark. He was born in the north, is going to be buried in the north (Surprisingly this all matters). It was hardly staggering that he opted for the north for the bankruptcy.
The only reason it was overturned was because the judge didn't believe that the office in Derrylin was actually in place before he applied for bankruptcy ( I'd agree that it more than likely wasn't which was a huge feck up by SQ's solicitors). Had it been it wouldn't have been overturned.

Just to back this up the quinn group head office is in Derrylin Co.Fermanagh

Last time I was down that part of the country I was still using Sterling
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 05:13:41 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 05:01:00 PM
Deiseach, all entrepreneurs like to bend the rules right, push the boundaries and all that??

No, they don't.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on January 12, 2012, 05:35:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:52:12 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 12, 2012, 04:40:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
What exactly is it in that article that I'm meant to be looking at that would conflict with the North being SQ's centre of main interests for 38 years?

- Sean didn't disclose in his bankruptcy application that he had an Irish passport and didn't have a UK passport, didn't disclose that he is registered to vote in the Republic

- Judge says Sean was hesitant in disclosing details of new business ventures after Quinn group receivership and concludes "on balance of probabilities" lease document on office in Derrylin, Fermanagh was prepared after date claimed by Sean Quinn and was designed to bolster Sean's present arguments about his centre of main interest being in Northern Ireland

Are those the actions of a man looking to paint an accurate picture of his situation?

Again i'm struggling to see what point your trying to make. His point of interest for 38 years was the North. If the Quinn group had went bust, he would have been bankrupted in the north, if Anglo hadn't denied him access to the Head office, he would have been bankrupted in the North. therefore those trying to paint this picture of him running north to go bankrupt are wide of the mark. He was born in the north, is going to be buried in the north (Surprisingly this all matters). The fact that he had an irish passport doesn't mean he can't be from the north. It was hardly staggering that he opted for the north for the bankruptcy.
The only reason it was overturned was because the judge didn't believe that the office in Derrylin was actually in place before he applied for bankruptcy ( I'd agree that it more than likely wasn't which was a huge feck up by SQ's solicitors). Had it been it wouldn't have been overturned.


Not trying to be disrespectful to you or anything, but I'm inclined to go with the judge on this one. I'm not trying to argue that I know the minutae of this as well as you do, but if his centre of interest was truly in the six counties, then why did the judge overturn the application for bankruptcy? You're saying I should believe you over a judge who has studied this case in detail and taken submissions from both sides - surely you can see why I might be skeptical?


Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 04:47:35 PM
He who has not sinned can cast the first stone.

The good he did to the area MASSIVELY outweighs the misdemeanors he may have committed. I have yet to meet a Saint in Irish business. Leave it at that lads.

Just to be clear on this, firstly, doing good does not give you licence to subsequently break the law. Secondly, the citizens of Ireland are the ones picking up the tab for this, so the question is not whether or not he was good for Cavan and Fermanagh, it's whether or not he was good for Ireland. If Cavan and Fermanagh taxpayers alone want to pay back the money to IBRC, then we can talk about what he did for the border area as if it's the be-all and end-all of this debate. The fact that there were 8000 employed by Quinn Group at their peak is of course a point in their favour, but if the Quinn Group was not supplying cement, glass, insurance and everything else to the people of Ireland, somebody else would have been. Maybe those suppliers would have been based elsewhere in the country, but it's a fallacy to say that during a time of virtually full employment in the country, every one of these people would have been on the dole were it not for SQ. Equally, I've yet to see a plausible set of numbers that demonstrates coherently that all his "good" for the country outweighs the huge hole in IBRC, the levy that is now going to be placed on all insurance products, not to mention the many other burdens on the exchequer arising out of this sorry mess. Any attempt at doing so contains fundamental mathematical errors, such as assuming he employed 8000 people for the 30 years of his working life, or using ridiculous multipliers for "spin off" benefits that have no basis in economic reality.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2012, 06:37:48 PM
I think there's a bit of confusion here loanshark. I'm not disputing what decision the judge made. My point is regarding people claiming that he ran of to NI for the bankruptcy proceedings. He had his main centre of interests in the north for over 38 years. That means for the previous 38 years if SQ was went bankrupt it would have been in the north. So he didn't run to the north for bankruptcy.

The only reason that it was overturned was because since April SQ's centre of interest has now defaulted to his home. And this is the technicality that Anglo focused on to over turn it. Legally so I might add. But people claiming that he ran away to the north obviously don't know what there're talking about as out of the last 39 odd years he would have been not only entitled to but actually required to go bankrupt in the north. But because of a slip up by his solicitors it's been overturned.

No real point going into your second paragraph as we've done it all before and I'm at home now. We can take it up in the morning again!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 07:04:02 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 05:13:41 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 05:01:00 PM
Deiseach, all entrepreneurs like to bend the rules right, push the boundaries and all that??

No, they don't.

Yes they do.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 12, 2012, 07:45:49 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 07:04:02 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 05:13:41 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 05:01:00 PM
Deiseach, all entrepreneurs like to bend the rules right, push the boundaries and all that??

No, they don't.

Yes they do.

Those of us with no emotional attachment to Quinn have no respect for him at best and at worst despise him. Those with emotional connections will take longer, but they will get there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 07:49:10 PM
Entrepreneurs don't conform. That's all I am saying.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on January 12, 2012, 08:27:25 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 07:49:10 PM
Entrepreneurs don't conform. That's all I am saying.

Carte blanche so? That's handy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 09:04:21 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 12, 2012, 08:27:25 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 07:49:10 PM
Entrepreneurs don't conform. That's all I am saying.

Carte blanche so? That's handy.

We wouldn't be that hot at the French in Fermanagh  :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on January 12, 2012, 09:50:26 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 12, 2012, 05:13:41 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 05:01:00 PM
Deiseach, all entrepreneurs like to bend the rules right, push the boundaries and all that??

No, they don't.

Some do, but if you can't do the time don't do the crime.
He bent the rules, he got caught.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 13, 2012, 12:05:52 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 12, 2012, 04:47:35 PM
He who has not sinned can cast the first stone.

The good he did to the area MASSIVELY outweighs the misdemeanors he may have committed. I have yet to meet a Saint in Irish business. Leave it at that lads.

I would love to leave it at that, in fact that would be f**king mighty to leave it at that but the fact of it is that me, my kids and in all probability their kids will be paying back  SQs debts, so all the good he did is really f**k all use, I've never been to sarsfields GAA club, I'm sure it's a lovely club but it really doesn't compensate me or any of the other people who are paying back his gamble.

And sorry to bring this up but it seems, without any official poll, that the none of the people here defending SQ are actually all that affected by his actions?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 07:30:43 AM
It is a great club, got nothing to do with SQ right enough.

Now the Shamrocks on the other hand.....  ;)

I think you'll find some of the ones defending him will be more affected than the majority on this board. And I include myself in that. 

You and your children would have been paying this huge dept anyway. SQ's dept ( Lets not forget they took over a group profitting £100 odd million a year as well as an insurance company that will make profit in the future) while  not a spit in the ocean is small compared to the total dept.

Ireland would be worse of if SQ hadn't started 40 odd years ago.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 08:52:11 AM
It was the governments choice to buy out anglo, a completely corrupt (I think we're all agreed) organisation. In doing so, they took on all this problem. Its they who lumbered the taxpayer with the whole quinn problem. One wonders why, knowing all this, they were so quick to dive in and rescue (cover up). To divert attention from their own actions, they've managed to create a pantomime baddy, which is why they're screwing quinn as hard as they can. Shower of corrupt c***ts, who seem to have escaped scot free.

Another point - lone shark, in terms of passports, many nationalists, myself included, in the north, have irish passports, as is our right as irish citizens. It has no bearing on the centre of interest, for those purposes Derrylin is in Ireland too, as anyone from there can also have an Irish passport.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on January 13, 2012, 09:38:39 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 08:52:11 AM
It was the governments choice to buy out anglo, a completely corrupt (I think we're all agreed) organisation. In doing so, they took on all this problem. Its they who lumbered the taxpayer with the whole quinn problem. One wonders why, knowing all this, they were so quick to dive in and rescue (cover up). To divert attention from their own actions, they've managed to create a pantomime baddy, which is why they're screwing quinn as hard as they can. Shower of corrupt c***ts, who seem to have escaped scot free.

Another point - lone shark, in terms of passports, many nationalists, myself included, in the north, have irish passports, as is our right as irish citizens. It has no bearing on the centre of interest, for those purposes Derrylin is in Ireland too, as anyone from there can also have an Irish passport.

Yet again I will say that I'm not for a minute questioning SQ's sense of national identity, or that of anyone else. I am saying that a judge came to a certain conclusion and I'm inclined to go with that rather than the word of people on here who have made it very clear that they would defend him if he was filmed committing murder live on TV.

Also, I also thought we had covered the fact that the treacher/incompetence/corruption of the Irish government that guaranteed bank debt is not at issue. Nobody's debating that. The debate is over the fact that there is a hole in IBRC's balance sheet due to SQ's actions and those of the state combined, along with a few other players. The galling aspect is that while we all have to pay the bill, SQ continues to salt away assets and play tricks to ensure that his family live a lifestyle that they haven't earned, while the genuine taxpayers of this nation have no such option to avoid paying their share of the bill.

This is not about which is the greater criminal here. Sean Quinn should be stripped of all assets that he owned at the time when he borrowed money, or indeed anyone who now possesses them, but then he should be allowed to start fresh. Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen on the other hand should be hanged for treason against the state.  But that's not the point here. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 13, 2012, 10:13:00 AM
You do realise Quinn passed many assests to his sibling years ago, maybe 10 or so years ago he signed the slieve russell to his daughter for example. Also, anyone who knows the Quinn group and the surrounding area will know it is based at a center in fermanagh. Always was. It is Anglo who found a loop hole to say otherwise. Finally, I would not defend Quinn if he were filmed murdering someone.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on January 13, 2012, 10:18:56 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 13, 2012, 10:13:00 AM
You do realise Quinn passed many assests to his sibling years ago, maybe 10 or so years ago he signed the slieve russell to his daughter for example. Also, anyone who knows the Quinn group and the surrounding area will know it is based at a center in fermanagh. Always was. It is Anglo who found a loop hole to say otherwise. Finally, I would not defend Quinn if he were filmed murdering someone.

Fine. If he was not indebted at that point, or was but has since paid off those loans, then no problem, she should be allowed retain her interest in the hotel. I didn't know which assets were passed on and which weren't, but I presumed some had been. The problem is not those kind of assets - it's assets that have been acquired with borrowed money, or assets that were part of his portfolio when he made the personal guarantee on the loans he took out, that should now be subject to the attention of the receiver appointed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 11:19:49 AM
All assets were passed onto the kids. The group, the insurance, foreign properties were all in others names long before administration.

SQ had no assets and was lent £2.8 billion.

The court cases that the Quinns are taking is because they contest the legality of the guaranetts. Anglo with the suppport of the government decided they would seize control. Funnily enough the Quinns disagreed and are now protecting their assets.

People bringing up the dept to the tax payers is an irrelevance. SQ's fight is still with Anglo, As I mention previous just because the dept was nationalised doesn't mean they should drop their cases or stop taking action to protect themselves.
Anglo decided the route they wanted to try and go for dept recovery. And if it's blowing up in their face I have no sympathy. There was other options.     
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 11:26:58 AM
The point re the identity was that you enboldened the part about him holding an irish passport as though it supported where his centre of interest was - I was pointing out that its utterly irrelevant.

In relation to assets transferred to the wife, kids etc - thats standard practice, and will form a large of any tax advice an accountant will be giving.

If a ponzi scheme asked you to invest money under false pretences, which you did, would you not then be entitled to hold back on all the payments once the fraud was exposed? Of course you would. Its the fact that the state went straight in to support anglo (which reeks) which has made this case a little different, because suddenly everyone thinks they are owed. Fact is, angol, which is the tax payers bank acted immorlally and illegally, they have no right to expect repayment, regardless of the fact that they are now owned by the people and so have a lot of support in seeking the payment
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on January 13, 2012, 12:13:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 11:19:49 AM
All assets were passed onto the kids. The group, the insurance, foreign properties were all in others names long before administration.

SQ had no assets and was lent £2.8 billion.

The court cases that the Quinns are taking is because they contest the legality of the guaranetts. Anglo with the suppport of the government decided they would seize control. Funnily enough the Quinns disagreed and are now protecting their assets.

People bringing up the dept to the tax payers is an irrelevance. SQ's fight is still with Anglo, As I mention previous just because the dept was nationalised doesn't mean they should drop their cases or stop taking action to protect themselves.
Anglo decided the route they wanted to try and go for dept recovery. And if it's blowing up in their face I have no sympathy. There was other options.   
Same comment but aimed in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 12:14:31 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 13, 2012, 10:13:00 AM
You do realise Quinn passed many assests to his sibling years ago, maybe 10 or so years ago he signed the slieve russell to his daughter for example. Also, anyone who knows the Quinn group and the surrounding area will know it is based at a center in fermanagh. Always was. It is Anglo who found a loop hole to say otherwise. Finally, I would not defend Quinn if he were filmed murdering someone.

Bingo.

A guy I played football with years ago was found dead in unsuspicious circumstances this week. There is a rumour of something similar in another Mayo town, also this week. There will be lots of stories like that this year and next year.

They are the real victims and those to blame for creating the mess include Neary, Fitzpatrick, Drumm, Lenihan, Cowen, Aherne and yes, Sean Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 12:38:58 PM
Aww muppet if your going to go down that road. Are you going to count the people SQ may have saved from doing wat you mentioned above when he supplied jobs to an area in dire need of them and when people had nowhere else to go? The rest of your list there doesn't compare to him.

You can argue the jobs etc are an irrelevance if you want but they're not in my eyes nor the eyes of alot of other in that area.   

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on January 13, 2012, 12:47:42 PM
Is the issue of where you are eligible to vote not more important than the passport in defining residency?  And bankruptcy is not a corporate issue, it's a personal one, so if someone is resident in a particular state then they should be subject to the laws of that state.  As Lone Shark says, it's a matter for the courts.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 12:51:17 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 12:38:58 PM
Aww muppet if your going to go down that road. Are you going to count the people SQ may have saved from doing wat you mentioned above when he supplied jobs to an area in dire need of them and when people had nowhere else to go? The rest of your list there doesn't compare to him.

You can argue the jobs etc are an irrelevance if you want but they're not in my eyes nor the eyes of alot of other in that area.

SS Haughey, Ahern, Cowen, Fitzpatrick bestowed their crumbs (jobs) on people too and had their worshippers. Your argument for Quinn would be just as valid and just as hollow for any of the others.

Quinn went to Anglo, not the other way round. He absolutely deserves to be named in that company and I think he will become infamous in Irish History, as he was different. The others were incompetent or corrupt, but Quinn, he just lost it all on one monumentally stupid bet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 12:59:20 PM
My point was in trying to relate deaths to SQ. To me that smacks of sensalising things.
I'll ask you a question do you think any of those deaths occurred because of SQ's loans?

The main aspect in the bankruptcy was the centre of interests Rois. When SQ got turfed out of HQ ( in the north) his centre of main interests defaulted to his home address. Up until that point SQ would have been required to go bankrupt in the north. So as his centre of interests was in the south at time of bankruptcy Anglo fought and won to have him bankrupt there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 01:10:25 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 12:59:20 PM
My point was in trying to relate deaths to SQ. To me that smacks of sensalising things.
I'll ask you a question do you think any of those deaths occurred because of SQ's loans?

The main aspect in the bankruptcy was the centre of interests Rois. When SQ got turfed out of HQ ( in the north) his centre of main interests defaulted to his home address. Up until that point SQ would have been required to go bankrupt in the north. So as his centre of interests was in the south at time of bankruptcy Anglo fought and won to have him bankrupt there.

Listen, the number of deaths by suicide is rising undoubtedly as a result of the financial crisis. I have never said that happened exclusively because of Quinn, be he certainly was a large part of it along with all of the others.

I'll say it again another way so you don't try to twist my words again: The number of suicides is rising because of all of the corrupt incompetent scumbags that was our financial system, including but not limited to, Sean Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on January 13, 2012, 01:18:19 PM
In related news

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0113/1224310196120.html?via=mr

Drumm loses court challenge against bankruptcy case in US

LARA MARLOWE in Boston

DAVID DRUMM, former chief executive of Anglo Irish Bank, yesterday lost a legal challenge against his bankruptcy case in the United States.

Mr Drumm did not attend the hearing and will not be required to appear in court until his bankruptcy trial, which should occur in late spring or early summer.

Yesterday, he lost his motion to dismiss proceedings by the court-appointed trustee Kathleen Dwyer to void what she regards as his fraudulent claim of bankruptcy.

The deadline for opposing discharge of Mr Drumm's debts of more than €8.6 million under section 727 of the bankruptcy code had been set for August 31st, 2011. Mr Drumm's lawyer, Frank Morrissey, said: "The rule in this district is that papers must be filed by 4.30pm . . . It's a black or white rule."

The Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), the successor bank to Anglo, filed its 727 action prior to 4.30pm that day. Mr Morrissey argued that allowing both 727 actions to go ahead was prejudicial to Mr Drumm because "it adds another party and makes it more protracted and more expensive".

Judge Frank Bailey had specified the deadline as "to and including August 31st".

"Our position is that means 4.30pm," Mr Morrissey said.

Judge Bailey asked what time Ms Dwyer filed her motion. "5.21 pm," Mr Morrissey said. "From 4.30 to 5.21 is 51 minutes."

"We may not be math stars, but we can agree on that," Judge Bailey said, provoking laughter in the courtroom.

Ms Dwyer's lawyer, Charles Bennett, said the deadline meant midnight on August 31st. Dismissing Ms Dwyer's case would be prejudicial to lesser creditors who are not included in the IBRC action, he argued.

Ken Leonetti, a lawyer for IBRC, said the deadlines had been extended "for the sole reason to accommodate Mr Drumm's slow dribble of documents". During the section 341 bankruptcy hearings last year, Mr Drumm repeatedly failed to meet deadlines to produce documents requested by the trustee.

Judge Bailey said he "could not ignore we are in the electronic age" and that in his mind, "the trustee could reasonably have believed she had more time. So I am going to deny the motion and allow the 727 to proceed."

Mr Drumm's lawyers succeeded on a motion to obtain access to some of the IBRC's evidence in a different action under section 523. The 523 action may be abandoned if the bank and trustee win under section 727.

"It doesn't make sense to get going with 523 at this point. But all the evidence is preserved," said John Hutchinson, a lawyer for IBRC.

IBRC is represented by prestigious law firms in Chicago, Boston and New York. Mr Drumm retains two Boston lawyers.

The separate issue of the trustee's action to liquidate property held in the name of Mr Drumm's wife Lorraine has been postponed at least until February 2nd. The Drumms are believed to have left their $2 million home in Wellesley, near Boston.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 01:22:12 PM
I'm not twisting your words. I'm just offering the view that the opposite of that is true for SQ which very few of the others can lay claim to especially not to the extent that SQ did. And the effects of that are still in effect today. There are 1000's of people who are in employment due to SQ.

So if your going to lay part of the blame at his feet for financial related suicides then make sure you take into account the flip side as well.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 01:25:48 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 01:10:25 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 12:59:20 PM
My point was in trying to relate deaths to SQ. To me that smacks of sensalising things.
I'll ask you a question do you think any of those deaths occurred because of SQ's loans?

The main aspect in the bankruptcy was the centre of interests Rois. When SQ got turfed out of HQ ( in the north) his centre of main interests defaulted to his home address. Up until that point SQ would have been required to go bankrupt in the north. So as his centre of interests was in the south at time of bankruptcy Anglo fought and won to have him bankrupt there.

Listen, the number of deaths by suicide are rising are undoubtedly as a result of the financial crisis. I have never said that happened exclusively because of Quinn, be he certainly was a large part of it along with all of the others.

I'll say it again another way so you don't try to twist my words again: The number of suicides is rising because of all of the corrupt incompetent scumbags that was our financial system, including but limited to, Sean Quinn.

Narrow it down - what exactly is quinn responsible for?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on January 13, 2012, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 07:30:43 AM
( Lets not forget they took over a group profitting £100 odd million a year as well as an insurance company that will make profit in the future)

I had to laugh at this one ...

Every insurance policy taken out is now hit with a 2% levy to pay for Quinn Inurance losses, which was neccessary in order to sell the company to Liberty Mutual. so the state will not benefit in any way from  the loss making Quinn Insurance :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082701.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 01:46:28 PM
Quote from: mick999 on January 13, 2012, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 07:30:43 AM
( Lets not forget they took over a group profitting £100 odd million a year as well as an insurance company that will make profit in the future)

I had to laugh at this one ...

Every insurance policy taken out is now hit with a 2% levy to pay for Quinn Inurance losses, which was neccessary in order to sell the company to Liberty Mutual. so the state will not benefit in any way from  the loss making Quinn Insurance :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082701.html


Don't believe everything you read on the Insurance sale. There's a lot more to come out regarding that.

Start by asking yourself why when Concerned Irish businesses raised a document outlining why no such levy was required and how it was a stealth tax on the irish people and when this was brought to court the Judge ruled that it would not allow it to be recieved as it may "disrupt the sale" of QIL. Considering the document was regarding why the sale should not have been made under the terms they were (Nothing about returning it to SQ by the way) it's kind of a strange decision.

Some people will swallow everything that anglo put out in the papers. Others will have the sense to look a little deeper.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on January 13, 2012, 01:49:14 PM
So it's all lies being spun by Anglo/ IBRC and Quinn is really as pure as  the driven snow.

Thanks for clearing that up.  ;D

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on January 13, 2012, 01:56:17 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 01:46:28 PM
Quote from: mick999 on January 13, 2012, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 07:30:43 AM
( Lets not forget they took over a group profitting £100 odd million a year as well as an insurance company that will make profit in the future)

I had to laugh at this one ...

Every insurance policy taken out is now hit with a 2% levy to pay for Quinn Inurance losses, which was neccessary in order to sell the company to Liberty Mutual. so the state will not benefit in any way from  the loss making Quinn Insurance :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082701.html


Don't believe everything you read on the Insurance sale. There's a lot more to come out regarding that.

Start by asking yourself why when Concerned Irish businesses raised a document outlining why no such levy was required and how it was a stealth tax on the irish people and when this was brought to court the Judge ruled that it would not allow it to be recieved as it may "disrupt the sale" of QIL. Considering the document was regarding why the sale should not have been made under the terms they were (Nothing about returning it to SQ by the way) it's kind of a strange decision.

Some people will swallow everything that anglo put out in the papers. Others will have the sense to look a little deeper.

I presume the administrators are lying as well when they said the losses were €706m in 2009 and €160m in 2010

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1022178.shtml

Sure it was making loads of money ...

It that you Sean ??

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 02:05:47 PM
It was forced to stop writing new business in the UK, amongst other restrictions, as well as been given tons of the worst publicity possible and been put into adminsitration. See how any business handles that type of 'regulation'!!

The clowns who took it over made those losses - if you put any company into administration there will be asset write-downs to a massive degree, as your article states, this is key to the loss of €700m that it reports.

It was making €20m a month profit before it was put into administration. The process to get it bnack on track was handled in the worst way possible, thats who you have to blame for your 2% levy

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on January 13, 2012, 02:16:42 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 02:05:47 PM
It was making €20m a month profit before it was put into administration.

This article from the Irish times answers that point better than  I could :

Quinn should have no role in insurance group rescue

BUSINESS OPINION: Seán Quinn is architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises his insurance adventure is over the better, writes JOHN McMANUS

WATCHING SEÁN Quinn on the television news last Thursday, it seemed pretty obvious that someone needs to take him aside and explain a few things. The extent to which Quinn seems deluded is positively frightening. It is clear that he fundamentally does not understand the prudential bargain at the heart of the insurance business.

On the news and in several subsequent interviews, he has gone on at length about the profitability of Quinn Insurance, which he tells us makes profits of €20 million a month, and which in theory will allow him repay the Quinn Group's €4 billion of debt.

The first point to make here is that Quinn Insurance does not meet the solvency requirements set by the regulator and has a history of not doing so. The Government allows companies sell insurance provided they obey certain rules, the most fundamental of which is the requirement to have enough assets to meet your liabilities. One of the ways you do this is set aside some of your profits.

Anyone in insurance will tell you that it's much easier to make profits if you don't meet your solvency targets. The trouble is that if you are not meeting your solvency targets you are not running an insurance company, you are running something else. And it's something that might not have the wherewithal to meet its commitments.

That in turn is not something that the Government can let you do if it's serious about protecting its citizens. In fact its something they should take off you before people get hurt, including the employees.

The only amazing thing about Quinn Insurance – and sadly it's not that amazing in the Irish context – is that the company was not seized years ago. Mr Quinn's decision to use the reserves of the insurance company to finance his disastrous foray into Anglo Irish Bank shares should have been sufficient grounds to seize the company in 2008, demonstrating as it did his blindness to the prudential fundamentals of insurance.

Over and above that, the whole – and as yet unexplained – thinking behind taking a secret 28 per cent stake in the country's third-largest bank should, as a minimum, have shown an approach to investment at odds with running an insurance business. Never mind what it said about an attitude to corporate governance.

The anger expressed by Quinn Insurance staff is entirely misplaced. The person they should be asking questions of is the man whose massive investment gambles pushed the company into the arms of the administrator.

The second point on which Mr Quinn needs to be wised up on is that his folksy code of "if I make a mistake I will fix it" does not actually cut when you have helped wreck a bank that will end up costing €20 billion to put down, never mind save.

When the consequences of that include putting in jeopardy an insurance company that one million people count on and that 2,400 work for, "I made a mistake, I will fix it" just sounds like the recipe for mashing up what is left of the business.

The third thing that Seán Quinn needs to grasp is that the fact that he lost €3 billion on shares – most of which went on a disastrous investment in Anglo Irish Bank shares – makes him even less qualified to be let near an insurance company. But, by his tortured logic, the scale of his losses should engender some sort of empathy and lead to us giving him a further chance. It's crackers.

Seán Quinn is the architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises the game is up as far as his adventure in the insurance industry the better. The real issue is how to save Quinn Insurance, because if it goes down the unintended collateral damage will be huge. Not only are jobs at risk, there is the nightmarish scenario of what happens to the health insurance market if Quinn Insurance flounders. Private health insurance is one of the creaky pillars on which the health service is built. Withdraw cover from 400,000 people and the whole thing falls over.

The preferred solution is to find a buyer for Quinn Insurance as quickly as possible and before the whole thing unravels as its bankers and customers take flight. An international buyer would be preferable because it would shift the risk on to their balance sheet and away from the State.

The other alternative is for the State to take it on to its already rather stretched balance sheet via Anglo Irish Bank, which is owed €2.8 billion by the Quinn family and has a charge over the family's assets. But Anglo is in deep enough trouble as things stand without also turning it into a lifeboat for Quinn Insurance

At this stage it's unclear which way things will go, but one thing is obvious: there should be no role for Seán Quinn in what happens.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on January 13, 2012, 02:22:51 PM
Quote from: mick999 on January 13, 2012, 02:16:42 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 02:05:47 PM
It was making €20m a month profit before it was put into administration.

This article from the Irish times answers that point better than  I could :

Quinn should have no role in insurance group rescue

BUSINESS OPINION: Seán Quinn is architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises his insurance adventure is over the better, writes JOHN McMANUS

WATCHING SEÁN Quinn on the television news last Thursday, it seemed pretty obvious that someone needs to take him aside and explain a few things. The extent to which Quinn seems deluded is positively frightening. It is clear that he fundamentally does not understand the prudential bargain at the heart of the insurance business.

On the news and in several subsequent interviews, he has gone on at length about the profitability of Quinn Insurance, which he tells us makes profits of €20 million a month, and which in theory will allow him repay the Quinn Group's €4 billion of debt.

The first point to make here is that Quinn Insurance does not meet the solvency requirements set by the regulator and has a history of not doing so. The Government allows companies sell insurance provided they obey certain rules, the most fundamental of which is the requirement to have enough assets to meet your liabilities. One of the ways you do this is set aside some of your profits.

Anyone in insurance will tell you that it's much easier to make profits if you don't meet your solvency targets. The trouble is that if you are not meeting your solvency targets you are not running an insurance company, you are running something else. And it's something that might not have the wherewithal to meet its commitments.

That in turn is not something that the Government can let you do if it's serious about protecting its citizens. In fact its something they should take off you before people get hurt, including the employees.

The only amazing thing about Quinn Insurance – and sadly it's not that amazing in the Irish context – is that the company was not seized years ago. Mr Quinn's decision to use the reserves of the insurance company to finance his disastrous foray into Anglo Irish Bank shares should have been sufficient grounds to seize the company in 2008, demonstrating as it did his blindness to the prudential fundamentals of insurance.

Over and above that, the whole – and as yet unexplained – thinking behind taking a secret 28 per cent stake in the country's third-largest bank should, as a minimum, have shown an approach to investment at odds with running an insurance business. Never mind what it said about an attitude to corporate governance.

The anger expressed by Quinn Insurance staff is entirely misplaced. The person they should be asking questions of is the man whose massive investment gambles pushed the company into the arms of the administrator.

The second point on which Mr Quinn needs to be wised up on is that his folksy code of "if I make a mistake I will fix it" does not actually cut when you have helped wreck a bank that will end up costing €20 billion to put down, never mind save.

When the consequences of that include putting in jeopardy an insurance company that one million people count on and that 2,400 work for, "I made a mistake, I will fix it" just sounds like the recipe for mashing up what is left of the business.

The third thing that Seán Quinn needs to grasp is that the fact that he lost €3 billion on shares – most of which went on a disastrous investment in Anglo Irish Bank shares – makes him even less qualified to be let near an insurance company. But, by his tortured logic, the scale of his losses should engender some sort of empathy and lead to us giving him a further chance. It's crackers.

Seán Quinn is the architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises the game is up as far as his adventure in the insurance industry the better. The real issue is how to save Quinn Insurance, because if it goes down the unintended collateral damage will be huge. Not only are jobs at risk, there is the nightmarish scenario of what happens to the health insurance market if Quinn Insurance flounders. Private health insurance is one of the creaky pillars on which the health service is built. Withdraw cover from 400,000 people and the whole thing falls over.

The preferred solution is to find a buyer for Quinn Insurance as quickly as possible and before the whole thing unravels as its bankers and customers take flight. An international buyer would be preferable because it would shift the risk on to their balance sheet and away from the State.

The other alternative is for the State to take it on to its already rather stretched balance sheet via Anglo Irish Bank, which is owed €2.8 billion by the Quinn family and has a charge over the family's assets. But Anglo is in deep enough trouble as things stand without also turning it into a lifeboat for Quinn Insurance

At this stage it's unclear which way things will go, but one thing is obvious: there should be no role for Seán Quinn in what happens.

Look, can ye not understand!? The laws and regulations shouldn't apply to SQ in the same way as they apply to everyone else. He's a different case - he's an entrepreneur who employed large numbers of people and is from the border area, so he's allowed to ignore or bend the rules and regulations as he sees fit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 13, 2012, 02:32:23 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 13, 2012, 02:22:51 PM
Look, can ye not understand!? The laws and regulations shouldn't apply to SQ in the same way as they apply to everyone else. He's a different case - he's an entrepreneur who employed large numbers of people, is from the border area and is a lifelong member of the GAA, so he's allowed to ignore or bend the rules and regulations as he sees fit.

Fixed that for you
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 02:43:35 PM
Quote from: mick999 on January 13, 2012, 01:56:17 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 01:46:28 PM
Quote from: mick999 on January 13, 2012, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 07:30:43 AM
( Lets not forget they took over a group profitting £100 odd million a year as well as an insurance company that will make profit in the future)

I had to laugh at this one ...

Every insurance policy taken out is now hit with a 2% levy to pay for Quinn Insurance losses, which was necessary in order to sell the company to Liberty Mutual. So the state will not benefit in any way from  the loss making Quinn Insurance :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082701.html


Don't believe everything you read on the Insurance sale. There's a lot more to come out regarding that.

Start by asking yourself why when Concerned Irish businesses raised a document outlining why no such levy was required and how it was a stealth tax on the Irish people and when this was brought to court the Judge ruled that it would not allow it to be received as it may "disrupt the sale" of QIL. Considering the document was regarding why the sale should not have been made under the terms they were (Nothing about returning it to SQ by the way) it's kind of a strange decision.

Some people will swallow everything that anglo put out in the papers. Others will have the sense to look a little deeper.

I presume the administrators are lying as well when they said the losses were €706m in 2009 and €160m in 2010

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1022178.shtml

Sure it was making loads of money ...

It that you Sean ??



As I said don't believe everything you read. The administrators were far from being independent as they should have been.
there was the details of the taped conversation were "allegedly" (does that cover me) one stated during voluntary administration that Sean Quinn would not be allowed back in the company in any shape or form despite the administrators having no opinion on or interest in where the company would end up.. Que the injunction by the administrators to prevent this coming out to the public (Though I do believe it did slip out in a couple of articles).

With regards the losses the majority of these were in regards to writing down of losses. And then there was the issue of overstating the liabilities of existing claims.

So as I said don't believe everything that is fed out from the state or Anglo. Try and use your head why you think SQ wanted the Insurance company back so badly if it was loss making? Some people are unable to use some logic to see past even the most obvious of Bull shit. Sean Quinn might have done alot wrong. And fecked up a lot of things. But be under no illusion the Irish people were raped over the sale of QIL by the state and Liberty.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 02:44:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on January 13, 2012, 02:32:23 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on January 13, 2012, 02:22:51 PM
Look, can ye not understand!? The laws and regulations shouldn't apply to SQ in the same way as they apply to everyone else. He's a different case - he's an entrepreneur who employed large numbers of people, is from the border area and is a lifelong member of the GAA, so he's allowed to ignore or bend the rules and regulations as he sees fit.

Fixed that for you

Good Point, well made.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 13, 2012, 03:10:18 PM
SS, is there a difference between not believing everything you read and believing none of it?

IMO for every over the top accusation thrown at SQ there's someone like yourself to say "ah don't be heeding any of that stuff about poor oul Sean"

My main issue will always be that he has the opportunity to cover some of his debts and he isn't, he's walking away to a life of relative comfort and feathering his family's nest while we pay for it.
No matter how bad anyone else is, or how much he has been wronged that is unforgivable in my book.

But as I said previously he's bound to be 100% forgiven above in Enniskillin and Derrylin, he has done nothing but good for those people, is clowns down here are a different story and it can be justified by saying sure its only a drop in the ocean of what we owe everyone else........thanks
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 03:37:37 PM
There is indeed Mayo. And I accept that I post pro Quinn sentiments and I have my reasons for that. But then there are others here that will believe every little thing that is put out by the state/ Anglo without question. Even when logic would tell you otherwise because it's easier to ignore it and Anglo/ the state have went to town on identifying SQ as the figurehead of the downfall of the Irish economy.

Unfortunately SQ doesn't have the ability to cover his depts. He never had any assets to cover them. The assets are in the children's names and have been for years. He should never have been loaned 2.8 billion and he should never have asked or taken the loan on.  But this was the move that destroyed everything he worked for and turned the people of Ireland against him. For some it's negated everything he did before, which is fair enough, for others it hasn't.

The asset moving at the minute is protecting the kids assets which they are contesting Anglo's right to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 13, 2012, 03:58:01 PM
I wouldn't accept that there are no assets, nor do I know enough about law to talk about what rights the creditors of the Quinn group have to assets transferred to children etc, I'd hope they have 100% rights to it, not just in the SQ case.
I'll leave it at that
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: HiMucker on January 13, 2012, 04:16:53 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 13, 2012, 03:58:01 PM
I wouldn't accept that there are no assets, nor do I know enough about law to talk about what rights the creditors of the Quinn group have to assets transferred to children etc, I'd hope they have 100% rights to it, not just in the SQ case.
I'll leave it at that
Would you think they have right to assets transferred to their name 5 years ago or 10 years ago? What time limit would you set? Or would you just contest assets transferred after the shit hi the fan?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 13, 2012, 04:31:58 PM
Like I say I don't know what the law is so I couldn't comment on it. It's a hard thing to have a rule for, in some cases people can strip a company of assets causing its downfall, what's right there? In others it goes tits up and then they start stripping it. I don't know the details of asset management for the Quinn group so I wouldnt even attempt to comment on that specific case.

It does gall me to see people like Seanie Fitz transferring deeds to the wife and continuing to live in luxury, as was the case, while supposedly bankrupt
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 03:37:37 PM
There is indeed Mayo. And I accept that I post pro Quinn sentiments and I have my reasons for that. But then there are others here that will believe every little thing that is put out by the state/ Anglo without question. Even when logic would tell you otherwise because it's easier to ignore it and Anglo/ the state have went to town on identifying SQ as the figurehead of the downfall of the Irish economy.

Unfortunately SQ doesn't have the ability to cover his depts. He never had any assets to cover them. The assets are in the children's names and have been for years. He should never have been loaned 2.8 billion and he should never have asked or taken the loan on.  But this was the move that destroyed everything he worked for and turned the people of Ireland against him. For some it's negated everything he did before, which is fair enough, for others it hasn't.

The asset moving at the minute is protecting the kids assets which they are contesting Anglo's right to.

Are you saying Quinn entered into a loan agreement on the basis of collateral that he didn't own?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 13, 2012, 04:44:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 03:37:37 PM
There is indeed Mayo. And I accept that I post pro Quinn sentiments and I have my reasons for that. But then there are others here that will believe every little thing that is put out by the state/ Anglo without question. Even when logic would tell you otherwise because it's easier to ignore it and Anglo/ the state have went to town on identifying SQ as the figurehead of the downfall of the Irish economy.

Unfortunately SQ doesn't have the ability to cover his depts. He never had any assets to cover them. The assets are in the children's names and have been for years. He should never have been loaned 2.8 billion and he should never have asked or taken the loan on.  But this was the move that destroyed everything he worked for and turned the people of Ireland against him. For some it's negated everything he did before, which is fair enough, for others it hasn't.

The asset moving at the minute is protecting the kids assets which they are contesting Anglo's right to.

Are you saying Quinn entered into a loan agreement on the basis of collateral that he didn't own?

That appears to be the case Muppet SQ had a personal Guarantee on the funds but didn't have the collateral to cover this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:47:16 PM
Quote from: oisinog on January 13, 2012, 04:44:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 03:37:37 PM
There is indeed Mayo. And I accept that I post pro Quinn sentiments and I have my reasons for that. But then there are others here that will believe every little thing that is put out by the state/ Anglo without question. Even when logic would tell you otherwise because it's easier to ignore it and Anglo/ the state have went to town on identifying SQ as the figurehead of the downfall of the Irish economy.

Unfortunately SQ doesn't have the ability to cover his depts. He never had any assets to cover them. The assets are in the children's names and have been for years. He should never have been loaned 2.8 billion and he should never have asked or taken the loan on.  But this was the move that destroyed everything he worked for and turned the people of Ireland against him. For some it's negated everything he did before, which is fair enough, for others it hasn't.

The asset moving at the minute is protecting the kids assets which they are contesting Anglo's right to.

Are you saying Quinn entered into a loan agreement on the basis of collateral that he didn't own?

That appears to be the case Muppet SQ had a personal Guarantee on the funds but didn't have the collateral to cover this.

Can anyone explain to me why he isn't being done for fraud then?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 13, 2012, 04:49:00 PM
Surely a personal guarantee would see him lose the house and farm?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 13, 2012, 04:52:05 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:47:16 PM
Quote from: oisinog on January 13, 2012, 04:44:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 03:37:37 PM
There is indeed Mayo. And I accept that I post pro Quinn sentiments and I have my reasons for that. But then there are others here that will believe every little thing that is put out by the state/ Anglo without question. Even when logic would tell you otherwise because it's easier to ignore it and Anglo/ the state have went to town on identifying SQ as the figurehead of the downfall of the Irish economy.

Unfortunately SQ doesn't have the ability to cover his depts. He never had any assets to cover them. The assets are in the children's names and have been for years. He should never have been loaned 2.8 billion and he should never have asked or taken the loan on.  But this was the move that destroyed everything he worked for and turned the people of Ireland against him. For some it's negated everything he did before, which is fair enough, for others it hasn't.

The asset moving at the minute is protecting the kids assets which they are contesting Anglo's right to.

Are you saying Quinn entered into a loan agreement on the basis of collateral that he didn't own?

That appears to be the case Muppet SQ had a personal Guarantee on the funds but didn't have the collateral to cover this.

Can anyone explain to me why he isn't being done for fraud then?

There is nothing Illegal about it. AIB sanctioned the loan on his word they should have been looking into it in relation to his assets
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 13, 2012, 04:52:47 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 13, 2012, 04:49:00 PM
Surely a personal guarantee would see him lose the house and farm?

Not if its in his childrens name
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on January 13, 2012, 04:54:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 03:37:37 PM
There is indeed Mayo. And I accept that I post pro Quinn sentiments and I have my reasons for that. But then there are others here that will believe every little thing that is put out by the state/ Anglo without question. Even when logic would tell you otherwise because it's easier to ignore it and Anglo/ the state have went to town on identifying SQ as the figurehead of the downfall of the Irish economy.

Unfortunately SQ doesn't have the ability to cover his depts. He never had any assets to cover them. The assets are in the children's names and have been for years. He should never have been loaned 2.8 billion and he should never have asked or taken the loan on.  But this was the move that destroyed everything he worked for and turned the people of Ireland against him. For some it's negated everything he did before, which is fair enough, for others it hasn't.

The asset moving at the minute is protecting the kids assets which they are contesting Anglo's right to.

Are you saying Quinn entered into a loan agreement on the basis of collateral that he didn't own?

Quinn may have entered into a loan agreement on basis of personal guarantee based on a certain net worth, possibly at a time when he owned the assets.  It is technically the fault of the bank not to have secured the lending on any particular asset or insisting that he did not dispose of any assets if this is the case.  I saw this often when I did loan valuation work for NAMA.  And that wasn't on Anglo loans, so you can imagine it's widespread.  NAMA legally can't go after a principal private residence - possibly the same in this instance, not sure. 

I'm certainly no fan of the decisions that Sean Quinn made and continues to make, but there is a definite scape goat feel to Anglos' actions. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:59:58 PM
Quote from: Rois on January 13, 2012, 04:54:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 03:37:37 PM
There is indeed Mayo. And I accept that I post pro Quinn sentiments and I have my reasons for that. But then there are others here that will believe every little thing that is put out by the state/ Anglo without question. Even when logic would tell you otherwise because it's easier to ignore it and Anglo/ the state have went to town on identifying SQ as the figurehead of the downfall of the Irish economy.

Unfortunately SQ doesn't have the ability to cover his depts. He never had any assets to cover them. The assets are in the children's names and have been for years. He should never have been loaned 2.8 billion and he should never have asked or taken the loan on.  But this was the move that destroyed everything he worked for and turned the people of Ireland against him. For some it's negated everything he did before, which is fair enough, for others it hasn't.

The asset moving at the minute is protecting the kids assets which they are contesting Anglo's right to.

Are you saying Quinn entered into a loan agreement on the basis of collateral that he didn't own?

Quinn may have entered into a loan agreement on basis of personal guarantee based on a certain net worth, possibly at a time when he owned the assets.  It is technically the fault of the bank not to have secured the lending on any particular asset or insisting that he did not dispose of any assets if this is the case.  I saw this often when I did loan valuation work for NAMA.  And that wasn't on Anglo loans, so you can imagine it's widespread.  NAMA legally can't go after a principal private residence - possibly the same in this instance, not sure. 

I'm certainly no fan of the decisions that Sean Quinn made and continues to make, but there is a definite scape goat feel to Anglos' actions.

Can you flesh this out for me Rois?

I get a loan based on a personal guarantee. What exactly have I signed for in that scenario? If it turns out I guaranteed assets or funds I didn't have, why should the bank leave it at that? Is it another problem with our law, i.e. you can only get done for fraud, which is very difficult to prove and there are no lesser charges which apply, for example, in the States?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 13, 2012, 05:07:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:59:58 PM
Quote from: Rois on January 13, 2012, 04:54:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 03:37:37 PM
There is indeed Mayo. And I accept that I post pro Quinn sentiments and I have my reasons for that. But then there are others here that will believe every little thing that is put out by the state/ Anglo without question. Even when logic would tell you otherwise because it's easier to ignore it and Anglo/ the state have went to town on identifying SQ as the figurehead of the downfall of the Irish economy.

Unfortunately SQ doesn't have the ability to cover his depts. He never had any assets to cover them. The assets are in the children's names and have been for years. He should never have been loaned 2.8 billion and he should never have asked or taken the loan on.  But this was the move that destroyed everything he worked for and turned the people of Ireland against him. For some it's negated everything he did before, which is fair enough, for others it hasn't.

The asset moving at the minute is protecting the kids assets which they are contesting Anglo's right to.

Are you saying Quinn entered into a loan agreement on the basis of collateral that he didn't own?

Quinn may have entered into a loan agreement on basis of personal guarantee based on a certain net worth, possibly at a time when he owned the assets.  It is technically the fault of the bank not to have secured the lending on any particular asset or insisting that he did not dispose of any assets if this is the case.  I saw this often when I did loan valuation work for NAMA.  And that wasn't on Anglo loans, so you can imagine it's widespread.  NAMA legally can't go after a principal private residence - possibly the same in this instance, not sure. 

I'm certainly no fan of the decisions that Sean Quinn made and continues to make, but there is a definite scape goat feel to Anglos' actions.

Can you flesh this out for me Rois?

I get a loan based on a personal guarantee. What exactly have I signed for in that scenario? If it turns out I guaranteed assets or funds I didn't have, why should the bank leave it at that? Is it another problem with our law, i.e. you can only get done for fraud, which is very difficult to prove and there are no lesser charges which apply, for example, in the States?

Muppet a personal guarantee can range quite a lot. You could do a personal guarantee on a loan for one of your friends. If they dont pay it you have to. Some banks dont require you meet with them for this you can get a solicitor to witness this.

As the loan is not secured against an asset such as a mortgage is. The bank can not then reprocess an asset under your name as they have no rights to chase it.

AIB should have secured this against his companies that way they would have the right to sell them and get their money back
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on January 13, 2012, 05:12:33 PM
Can't give you a legal answer here, but loans were secured on personal guarantees, the value of which is determined by the cash you have, the assets you own etc but not legally secured on the assets.  A prudent bank would have revalued the value of the personal guarantee on a regular basis and sought additional security when this value reduced, as very often the loans were out of term and terms could have been varied, but through my experience of the good times in the banks, this was RARELY done, and I imagine even less so by Anglo.  There may indeed be clauses in the loan agreements (which I never saw) regarding clawback when PGs are worth less than their initial value, so perhaps the banks can go after them.  In valuing loans they were generally given a value of zero.  Not sure if that's an indication of how easily it was believed they could be pursued for value - I'm speculating here.

Realistically, loans were lent on PGs to people who had other borrowings with secured properties.  Sean Quinn was not the only one who has an outstanding PG as security for a loan, but he's the only one we hear about. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: Rois on January 13, 2012, 05:12:33 PM
Can't give you a legal answer here, but loans were secured on personal guarantees, the value of which is determined by the cash you have, the assets you own etc but not legally secured on the assets.  A prudent bank would have revalued the value of the personal guarantee on a regular basis and sought additional security when this value reduced, as very often the loans were out of term and terms could have been varied, but through my experience of the good times in the banks, this was RARELY done, and I imagine even less so by Anglo.  There may indeed be clauses in the loan agreements (which I never saw) regarding clawback when PGs are worth less than their initial value, so perhaps the banks can go after them.  In valuing loans they were generally given a value of zero.  Not sure if that's an indication of how easily it was believed they could be pursued for value - I'm speculating here.

Realistically, loans were lent on PGs to people who had other borrowings with secured properties.  Sean Quinn was not the only one who has an outstanding PG as security for a loan, but he's the only one we hear about.

Thanks for that.

As for the bit in bold, is that because the others are all tied up in NAMA?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 13, 2012, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: Rois on January 13, 2012, 05:12:33 PM
Can't give you a legal answer here, but loans were secured on personal guarantees, the value of which is determined by the cash you have, the assets you own etc but not legally secured on the assets.  A prudent bank would have revalued the value of the personal guarantee on a regular basis and sought additional security when this value reduced, as very often the loans were out of term and terms could have been varied, but through my experience of the good times in the banks, this was RARELY done, and I imagine even less so by Anglo.  There may indeed be clauses in the loan agreements (which I never saw) regarding clawback when PGs are worth less than their initial value, so perhaps the banks can go after them.  In valuing loans they were generally given a value of zero.  Not sure if that's an indication of how easily it was believed they could be pursued for value - I'm speculating here.

Realistically, loans were lent on PGs to people who had other borrowings with secured properties.  Sean Quinn was not the only one who has an outstanding PG as security for a loan, but he's the only one we hear about.

Thanks for that.

As for the bit in bold, is that because the others are all tied up in NAMA?

My understanding of NAMA (please correct me if I am wrong Rois) is the the loans held in NAMA are against property. Nama is trying to regain some of the money against bad loans by selling of the land or assets. You have to remember there are also loans in Nama that are performing well and the payments are being met.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on January 13, 2012, 05:24:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 01:46:28 PM


Start by asking yourself why when Concerned Irish businesses raised a document outlining why no such levy was required and how it was a stealth tax on the irish people and when this was brought to court the Judge ruled that it would not allow it to be recieved as it may "disrupt the sale" of QIL. Considering the document was regarding why the sale should not have been made under the terms they were (Nothing about returning it to SQ by the way) it's kind of a strange decision.


I find your glib accusation that any of the anti-Quinn posters are just swallowing things without thinking a little insulting, but I'll give you a chance to prove your case. Post up links to this document, plus anything else you have that paints Seán Quinn's actions in a different light to how they are currently portrayed, and I would be very happy to read that material and see whether it sounds more plausible.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on January 13, 2012, 05:34:41 PM
Quote from: oisinog on January 13, 2012, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: Rois on January 13, 2012, 05:12:33 PM
Can't give you a legal answer here, but loans were secured on personal guarantees, the value of which is determined by the cash you have, the assets you own etc but not legally secured on the assets.  A prudent bank would have revalued the value of the personal guarantee on a regular basis and sought additional security when this value reduced, as very often the loans were out of term and terms could have been varied, but through my experience of the good times in the banks, this was RARELY done, and I imagine even less so by Anglo.  There may indeed be clauses in the loan agreements (which I never saw) regarding clawback when PGs are worth less than their initial value, so perhaps the banks can go after them.  In valuing loans they were generally given a value of zero.  Not sure if that's an indication of how easily it was believed they could be pursued for value - I'm speculating here.

Realistically, loans were lent on PGs to people who had other borrowings with secured properties.  Sean Quinn was not the only one who has an outstanding PG as security for a loan, but he's the only one we hear about.

Thanks for that.

As for the bit in bold, is that because the others are all tied up in NAMA?

My understanding of NAMA (please correct me if I am wrong Rois) is the the loans held in NAMA are against property. Nama is trying to regain some of the money against bad loans by selling of the land or assets. You have to remember there are also loans in Nama that are performing well and the payments are being met.

Not all the loans are individually against property.  All loans related to a person are grouped in a "connection" and may or may not have specific properties against them but some were only based on PGs.  The "connection" was valued in its entirety. 

There are certainly performing loans but the LTVs are now way above what they would have been when made.  This will be a problem when renewing facilities.  NAMA will then hold all the power. 

Muppet I do believe that Sean Quinn is being singled out because of the processes that are not driven by NAMA and I'm not aware of NAMA's strategy in pursuing their borrowers through the courts. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on January 13, 2012, 05:43:41 PM
Quote from: Rois on January 13, 2012, 05:34:41 PM
Quote from: oisinog on January 13, 2012, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 05:16:38 PM
Quote from: Rois on January 13, 2012, 05:12:33 PM
Can't give you a legal answer here, but loans were secured on personal guarantees, the value of which is determined by the cash you have, the assets you own etc but not legally secured on the assets.  A prudent bank would have revalued the value of the personal guarantee on a regular basis and sought additional security when this value reduced, as very often the loans were out of term and terms could have been varied, but through my experience of the good times in the banks, this was RARELY done, and I imagine even less so by Anglo.  There may indeed be clauses in the loan agreements (which I never saw) regarding clawback when PGs are worth less than their initial value, so perhaps the banks can go after them.  In valuing loans they were generally given a value of zero.  Not sure if that's an indication of how easily it was believed they could be pursued for value - I'm speculating here.

Realistically, loans were lent on PGs to people who had other borrowings with secured properties.  Sean Quinn was not the only one who has an outstanding PG as security for a loan, but he's the only one we hear about.

Thanks for that.

As for the bit in bold, is that because the others are all tied up in NAMA?

My understanding of NAMA (please correct me if I am wrong Rois) is the the loans held in NAMA are against property. Nama is trying to regain some of the money against bad loans by selling of the land or assets. You have to remember there are also loans in Nama that are performing well and the payments are being met.

Not all the loans are individually against property.  All loans related to a person are grouped in a "connection" and may or may not have specific properties against them but some were only based on PGs.  The "connection" was valued in its entirety. 

There are certainly performing loans but the LTVs are now way above what they would have been when made.  This will be a problem when renewing facilities.  NAMA will then hold all the power. 

Muppet I do believe that Sean Quinn is being singled out because of the processes that are not driven by NAMA and I'm not aware of NAMA's strategy in pursuing their borrowers through the courts.

Thank you Rois working in banking up in the north I have no dealings with Nama that why i was not fully sure about them.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 05:46:16 PM
Quote from: Rois on January 13, 2012, 05:34:41 PM
Muppet I do believe that Sean Quinn is being singled out because of the processes that are not driven by NAMA and I'm not aware of NAMA's strategy in pursuing their borrowers through the courts.

Surely Anglo is correct to pursue payment of as much as possible of the €2.8bn?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 06:04:43 PM
I never said everyone who is anti Quinn Is swallowing things without thinking I said some were. There's plenty of informed comments on here that are Anti Quinn and I couldn't defend. . The example in question is regarding people claiming that he was making use of a loop hole to go bankrupt in the north when in reality it was Anglo using the loop hole to bankrupt him in the south. Google concerned Irish businesses and go to their website. It's all about Quinn takeover and the issues with it. There's plenty there. There was also the details outlined in the Quinn proposal regarding the figures quoted about the sale of QIL. It's prob on line as well. I'm on the iPhone so you'll forgive me for not doing it for you.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 06:07:23 PM
http://concernedirishbusiness.com/ (http://concernedirishbusiness.com/)

QuoteQUINN HAS ALWAYS PAID HIS BILLS AND HELPED US AT TIMES OF NEED!

:D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 06:15:58 PM
In all likelihood they're similarly pissing themselves laughing at your post linking Quinn to murder
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 06:18:48 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 06:15:58 PM
In all likelihood they're similarly pissing themselves laughing at your post linking Quinn to murder

Murder? I am delighted you have exposed yourself as a liar. Well done.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 06:19:40 PM
 :D

Granted it's very pro Quinn. But it out lines alot of the queries on the Quinn takeover.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 06:26:22 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 12:14:31 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 13, 2012, 10:13:00 AM
You do realise Quinn passed many assests to his sibling years ago, maybe 10 or so years ago he signed the slieve russell to his daughter for example. Also, anyone who knows the Quinn group and the surrounding area will know it is based at a center in fermanagh. Always was. It is Anglo who found a loop hole to say otherwise. Finally, I would not defend Quinn if he were filmed murdering someone.

Bingo.

A guy I played football with years ago was found dead in unsuspicious circumstances this week. There is a rumour of something similar in another Mayo town, also this week. There will be lots of stories like that this year and next year.

They are the real victims and those to blame for creating the mess include Neary, Fitzpatrick, Drumm, Lenihan, Cowen, Aherne and yes, Sean Quinn.

Really? What does the 'bingo' in reference to the 'finally I would not defend Quinn if he were filmed murdering someone' (which you enboldened so were clearly referring to) mean then? The usual hyperbolic s**t you come out with, but certainly a link.

And we all tell lies, I guess at least that makes me not a hypocrite. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 06:34:36 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 06:26:22 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 12:14:31 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 13, 2012, 10:13:00 AM
You do realise Quinn passed many assests to his sibling years ago, maybe 10 or so years ago he signed the slieve russell to his daughter for example. Also, anyone who knows the Quinn group and the surrounding area will know it is based at a center in fermanagh. Always was. It is Anglo who found a loop hole to say otherwise. Finally, I would not defend Quinn if he were filmed murdering someone.

Bingo.

A guy I played football with years ago was found dead in unsuspicious circumstances this week. There is a rumour of something similar in another Mayo town, also this week. There will be lots of stories like that this year and next year.

They are the real victims and those to blame for creating the mess include Neary, Fitzpatrick, Drumm, Lenihan, Cowen, Aherne and yes, Sean Quinn.

Really? What does the 'bingo' in reference to the 'finally I would not defend Quinn if he were filmed murdering someone' (which you enboldened so were clearly referring to) mean then? The usual hyperbolic s**t you come out with, but certainly a link.

And we all tell lies, I guess at least that makes me not a hypocrite.

Are you serious?

I know you live in a world of the most spectacular whataboutery but that takes the biscuit. You claim I accused Sean Quinn of Murder on the basis of that?

You are beneath contempt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 06:44:31 PM
Christ, I think I know where this is going becuase I've seen you talk youself into knots on the other thread. There you go spouting your hyperbolic shit again too.

I didnt say you accused Sean Quinn of murder, so I guess that makes you a liar who is beneath contempt. I said you linked him to murder, as demonstrated above. What did the 'Bingo' in relation to myles statement mean - take a while there to come up with something good.

I'll leave it now, becuase I've realised your powers of interpretation are incredibly limited, and I dont have the time to break everything I write into language you can understand.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2012, 06:55:28 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on January 13, 2012, 06:44:31 PM
Christ, I think I know where this is going becuase I've seen you talk youself into knots on the other thread. There you go spouting your hyperbolic shit again too.

I didnt say you accused Sean Quinn of murder, so I guess that makes you a liar who is beneath contempt. I said you linked him to murder, as demonstrated above. What did the 'Bingo' in relation to myles statement mean - take a while there to come up with something good.

I'll leave it now, becuase I've realised your powers of interpretation are incredibly limited, and I dont have the time to break everything I write into language you can understand.

You said I linked Sean Quinn to murder. Firstly please point to the murder in question. Any murder will do as long as it is a murder to which I linked Sean Quinn.



As for the Bingo comment it was fully explained and put in context in the rest of the post, which you have of course completely ignored.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on January 13, 2012, 10:25:32 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 13, 2012, 05:46:16 PM
Quote from: Rois on January 13, 2012, 05:34:41 PM
Muppet I do believe that Sean Quinn is being singled out because of the processes that are not driven by NAMA and I'm not aware of NAMA's strategy in pursuing their borrowers through the courts.

Surely Anglo is correct to pursue payment of as much as possible of the €2.8bn?

Absolutely, I just mean the publicity.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on January 14, 2012, 12:15:54 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 13, 2012, 06:04:43 PM
I never said everyone who is anti Quinn Is swallowing things without thinking I said some were. There's plenty of informed comments on here that are Anti Quinn and I couldn't defend. . The example in question is regarding people claiming that he was making use of a loop hole to go bankrupt in the north when in reality it was Anglo using the loop hole to bankrupt him in the south. Google concerned Irish businesses and go to their website. It's all about Quinn takeover and the issues with it. There's plenty there. There was also the details outlined in the Quinn proposal regarding the figures quoted about the sale of QIL. It's prob on line as well. I'm on the iPhone so you'll forgive me for not doing it for you.

Ah Jesus.

I say to you that I'm willing to open my mind and would be delighted to consider strong arguments in favour of the Quinn family and allowing them to maintain control of the companies involved, and this gibberish is the best you can come up with? It's like a thinly veiled propaganda machine, except the machine needs a service and somebody has robbed the veil. There is no attempt here to try and post up a balanced picture of events, it's quite clearly people who are scared of losing income and/or jobs, and are willing to just parrot anything Quinn says in order to do so. I sympathise with these people, but that doesn't make their argument valid. All I've read on that site is "you know how Anglo says that? Well we say this!"

There is no argument making the numbers stack up, merely puff pieces saying that if SQ is allowed buy Quinn Insurance for €1, and €650m is pumped back into it, then he'll turn it around. No indication how, why, or anything with meat on it, merely just that he would. That's it. Just hand him two thirds of a billion and let him off.


I am trying my damnedest here to take a step back from my outrage and to see things from the other side because I don't want to be part of a lynch mob unless the lynching is deserved, but you're telling me that I should ignore everything I read in every national publication, on all of our national broadcasters, ignore the considered judgement of Her Majesty's court, and instead take on faith the work of a mix of random business people from the border counties all hoping that their cash cow will live on?

Either you have something else much more substantial to show me, and I'm happy to wait for it until you're back at a computer, or I'm forced to believe you're actually on the wind up. Nobody could genuinely read through the content of a website like that and take any of it seriously, there is nothing only quotes, opinion and speculation, not a word of evidence, not a shred of mathematical analysis and reasoned projections.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jack Frost on January 14, 2012, 01:11:39 AM
Heard on the news an hour ago that the main HQ in Derrylin has been seriously damaged in a fire tonight. Has anyone any more info?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on January 14, 2012, 08:27:37 AM
Lone Shark, unless sarsfields is someone within senior management at the Quinn Group, how do you expect him or anyone else on here to have substantial figures and business proposals on how the business should and could have been run and rescued from this future abyss

Even I'd they we're, would it be likely to appear on a GAA forum?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 14, 2012, 08:45:29 AM
If everthing was right with the figures why did Anglo refuse to provide evidence of them to back them up? SQ said he would walk away from the company if they could substanciate they claims.They didn't. 

Why was SQ fighting so hard to get a loss making company back? Why was there so much interest in buying the company if it was loss making?

The Quinn proposal which was PWC audited confirmed that QIL was making a profit and even showed the projections on future profit and was a viable proposal. If you don't want to accept that then fine, but I'll that their word on that rather than yours thanks.




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 14, 2012, 10:45:22 AM
SS I think it's a flawed argument to say why would SQ want to take QIL if it wasn't making money. Firstly there are far greater apparently rhetorical questions such as well why would a business risk everything he owns on one share bet? And secondly I'd say to have power, everyone wants it and SQ prob believes 100% he could make a go again of QIL, sure he's done it before.

Both flawed arguments though
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 14, 2012, 11:04:05 AM
No more flawed than believing what Anglo say regarding the figures of QIL when they weren't prepared to disclose it. Anglo were the only ones with all the information and could have blown SQ's allegations wide open but didn't.

People here are prepared to believe the state/ Anglo just because they say it and therefore are beyond reproach. I choose to take it with a huge pinch of salt because of the corruption that was rife between both ( and I would include SQ as he was no doubt involved but to me it looks like they decided to jettison him and use him as the fall guy). Proving either side without doubt would be tough, the only thing is that Anglo were the only ones in a position to do that and to date haven't. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on January 14, 2012, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 14, 2012, 08:27:37 AM
Lone Shark, unless sarsfields is someone within senior management at the Quinn Group, how do you expect him or anyone else on here to have substantial figures and business proposals on how the business should and could have been run and rescued from this future abyss

Even I'd they we're, would it be likely to appear on a GAA forum?

I'm not asking for a detailed business plan here, but SS is asking us to ignore the national media, to take at face value the press releases of Sean Quinn who at best, has proven himself to be hugely naive in the world of finance with a spectacular feck up, and to assume that there is a national conspiracy going on extending into the justice system - all without any evidence whatsoever.

Something remotely concrete would be nice, is all I'm saying.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 14, 2012, 01:42:29 PM
I've given my answer above. Both CIB and the proposal from Quinns which as mentioned before was audited by PCW.

On top of that I've highlighted how Anglo refused to release details that could have shot down SQ's claims. After all they are the ones with all the information.

So you can believe what you want. Much the same as I will.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 14, 2012, 01:51:28 PM
Supersarsfields - any truth in the rumour that the cira are involved on the attacks on the Quinn group do you think. They probably think they will get some support, on their own brainless way. Totally stupid actions no matter who is doing it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 14, 2012, 03:53:01 PM
Haven't heard anything solid Myles. Police raided a few houses this week but didn't turn up anything. Hard to know if it's just locals or if it is more organised. No sense in it now, what's done is done and there won't be any reversal now. I'll just give them excuses when there's job losses. It wouldn't have much support from what I see. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on January 14, 2012, 05:10:12 PM
It's hard to believe local people regardless of how loyal they are to Sean Quinn would be behind these attacks.

Would certainly seem to fit in with dissidents views on capitalism.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 16, 2012, 01:22:39 PM
Sean Quinn declared bankrupt in Republic of Ireland

Sean Quinn's has been declared bankrupt in the Republic of Ireland Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn has been declared bankrupt in the Republic of Ireland.

The High Court in Dublin heard the bankruptcy application made by the former Anglo Irish Bank. It was not opposed by Mr Quinn.

Last week, the bank, now Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC) succeeded in having Mr Quinn's bankruptcy status in Northern Ireland annulled.


However, given the Republic's tough bankruptcy laws, he could be closer to 80 before he is allowed to take such a role.

This is not the end of the his legal fight with Anglo Irish Bank, now called IBRC.

Some of his close family members are due to mount a court action in Dublin challenging the legality of a 2bn euro loan Anglo made to them.

They say the bank in effect used them as part of an illegal share support scheme and the transaction is thus invalid.

The bank is also trying to seize Quinn family properties in Ukraine, Russia and India - a legal battle which has involved proceedings in courtrooms from Belfast to the British Virgin Islands.
Dublin Judge Elizabeth Dunn advised that Mr Quinn, 65, make himself available to be served the bankruptcy documents.

Speaking afterwards, Gavin Simons, solicitor for Mr Quinn confirmed his client would be making himself available to the official assignee Chris Lehane, to be served with the bankruptcy documents at a time that suits both parties.

He also said that Mr Quinn was not in court because he was not opposing the application
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 16, 2012, 01:48:43 PM
Quote from: Orangemac on January 14, 2012, 05:10:12 PM
It's hard to believe local people regardless of how loyal they are to Sean Quinn would be behind these attacks.

Would certainly seem to fit in with dissidents views on capitalism.

I certainly can believe that local people would be behind these attacks. It only takes one idiot etc. In fairness, Seán Quinn has been quite unequivocal in condemning the attacks. Nothing more he can do about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 16, 2012, 02:00:27 PM
Why would dissidents be upset now that he is broke? Surely their Communist ideology should have had more problems with him when he was the richest man in the country?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 16, 2012, 02:12:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 16, 2012, 02:00:27 PM
Why would dissidents be upset now that he is broke? Surely their Communist ideology should have had more problems with him when he was the richest man in the country?

Sticking it to The Man, I guess
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on January 16, 2012, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 14, 2012, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on January 14, 2012, 08:27:37 AM
Lone Shark, unless sarsfields is someone within senior management at the Quinn Group, how do you expect him or anyone else on here to have substantial figures and business proposals on how the business should and could have been run and rescued from this future abyss

Even I'd they we're, would it be likely to appear on a GAA forum?

I'm not asking for a detailed business plan here, but SS is asking us to ignore the national media, to take at face value the press releases of Sean Quinn who at best, has proven himself to be hugely naive in the world of finance with a spectacular feck up, and to assume that there is a national conspiracy going on extending into the justice system - all without any evidence whatsoever.

Something remotely concrete would be nice, is all I'm saying.

If only he had stuck to supplying concrete!!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on January 17, 2012, 11:01:10 AM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0117/1224310363342.html?via=mr

Hearings to decide whether Seán Quinn's family follows him into bankruptcy are to open in the High Court in two weeks' time.

Mr Quinn (65), once believed to have a net worth of approximately €3 billion, was adjudicated a bankrupt by the courts in Dublin yesterday on the application of the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly Anglo Irish Bank.

On February 2nd preliminary hearings are to be heard in the case where Mr Quinn's wife, Patricia, and the couple's five children are disputing the State-owned bank's claim for debts of €2.88 billion.

The family is claiming that it should not be held liable for the debts because the bank lent money which was used for the purpose of shoring up the bank's own share price. The family says the debts are tainted with illegality.

The Quinn family, once the richest in the State, last year lost control of the Quinn Group and of a large property portfolio in Ireland and the UK. It is contesting the efforts of the bank to seize valuable properties, with a value of up to half a billion euro, in eastern Europe and farther afield.

Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne, in the High Court yesterday, adjudicated Mr Quinn a bankrupt on the basis of an application made by Paul Gallagher SC, for IBRC. Mr Quinn was not in court and did not oppose the application.

Last November the bank was given summary judgment orders against Mr Quinn for debts of more than €2 billion, the largest such orders made against an individual to date.

About the same time, however, Mr Quinn surprised the bank by making a successful ex parte application to the courts in Belfast for bankruptcy status there. That order was annulled last week in a case where the bank argued successfully that Mr Quinn's centre of main interest was in the Republic and not in Northern Ireland.

In Northern Ireland bankrupts can emerge from their debts within 12 months, while the corresponding period in the Republic is 12 years.

Following yesterday's ruling by Ms Justice Dunne, Mr Quinn's assets now vest with the official assignee, Chris Lehane. Mr Quinn must meet Mr Lehane's office and furnish a statement of affairs.

He is barred from managing a company or being a company director and is advised to inform Mr Lehane's office before leaving the country. Mr Lehane can also review any asset transfers made in the past five years and, given certain circumstances, have them rendered void.

In his statement of affairs to the court in Belfast last year Mr Quinn said he had a little over €10,000 in three bank accounts, some forested land in Cavan and Fermanagh worth £35,000, and a 2004 Mercedes S600 worth £4,000. He said he had an Irish Life pension worth €159,951 and a Quinn Life pension worth €39,723.

He said he had no business, was unemployed, had no income and had monthly outgoings of £2,380.

He also said he began inheritance tax planning for his children in the late 1990s. The shares in the Quinn Group were transferred to his children in the middle of the last decade.

Following yesterday's ruling Mr Quinn accused the bank of pursuing a vendetta against him and his family. He said it had achieved its goal of "ensuring that I will never create another job".

"Given the expense incurred by Anglo in having my Northern Ireland bankruptcy overturned and the fact that today's judgement in no way improves Anglo's prospects of recovering money for the taxpayer, their [sic] actions clearly prove that it is a personal vendetta."

However, the bank responded by saying it was Mr Quinn who opted to approach the courts in Belfast to be declared a bankrupt.

"It is disappointing to note that Mr Quinn continues to assert that his bankruptcy is a matter of a personal vendetta by IBRC against him and his family. This simply is not true."

The bank said its focus was to recover as much as possible from assets over which it had security.

Relations between Mr Quinn and the bank have been particularly bad since it seized the Quinn Group in April of last year, a development which Mr Quinn has said left him "in a state of shock".

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on January 17, 2012, 11:08:54 AM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0117/1224310361798.html?via=rel

The Belfry is also officially up for sale.  Bought (by Sean Quinn Jnr ;)) in 2006 for £186mill, now valued at £88mill with an outstanding debt of £105mill.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 21, 2012, 09:12:42 AM
Interesting article In the independent regarding the transferring of assets and why their doing it. Also shows that if they are unsuccessful in their cases Anglo will still be able to recover the assets regardless of these transfers.

Also interesting Reading regarding the properties at the end regarding that they were bought with Quinn Money orginally and the loans for the properties were over a year later through Anglo.   

LOCALS are "exploiting" the legal battles between Anglo Irish Bank and the Quinn family to seize control of a $60m (€46.4m) property company in Kiev, Sean Quinn's son has claimed.
The claim came as the Quinns defended changes to the €500m property empire's structure that Anglo has described as a "orchestrated attack" to "strip assets" from the group and put them beyond Anglo's reach.
The most recent drama centres on a Kiev shopping centre, which is owned by a company that Anglo has seized control of. A British Virgin Islands company recently registered a $45.2m (€35m) charge against the Anglo-owned company.
Sean Quinn this week insisted the company that had registered the charge was "not us".
His son, Sean Quinn Jnr, predicted that neither Anglo nor the family would extract any value from the Ukranian asset because locals were "exploiting" the row.
"We approached Anglo in October/November to tell them there was a problem in the Ukraine, they didn't want to know," Mr Quinn Jnr added. A spokesman for Anglo declined to comment.
Speaking to the Irish Independent this week, the Quinns also defended changes that saw sizable loans due to some of the Anglo-created property companies transferred to companies outside the bank's reach.
Mr Quinn Jnr said that this merely changes re-assigned inter-company loans that the Quinns had granted to the companies Anglo took over. This was carried out before Anglo took over the property empire on April 14, the Quinns say. The transfers will have no effect if Anglo is successful in enforcing the mortgages it holds over the properties themselves, since the properties are worth less than the mortgages and there would be no cash left to pay off the other loans.
But if the Quinns successfully challenge the mortgages, then the reassigned loans could become valuable.
The Quinns also claimed that Anglo loans to their empire were used exclusively for investment in the bank's own shares and not for property purchases.
They have claimed in legal proceedings that a total of €2.34bn of share loans is invalid because they were granted for the illegal purpose of artificially preventing the bank's own share price from crashing.
The Quinns produced documents showing the loans for the Kiev company were granted by Anglo on December 17, 2007 -- a year after the building was purchased using "Quinn family resources".
Separate documents show $242m (€187m) of loans for Russian property assets were granted on November 2007 and December 2007, even though the Quinns invested just £90m (€108m) in the properties and had paid it all out by early 2007.



 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on January 23, 2012, 05:26:53 PM
From last week's Impartial Reporter

FORMER Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn who was declared bankrupt in the Republic on Monday says IBRC, the new name for Anglo Irish Bank, want to "destroy" his name and leave him and his family with nothing.

Mr. Quinn's comments come as speculation mounts that his wife, Patricia and five children, Colette, Ciara, Aoife, Brenda and Sean Junior could be made bankrupt next, and that he will lose his Ballyconnell home.

In an exclusive interview with The Impartial Reporter this week, Mr. Quinn has:

• claimed he is heading into retirement "penniless".

• hit back at IBRC for what he describes as their "Sean Quinn hatred", accusing them of "ripping off the country" and "destroying" his former company.

• claimed that ever since he lost control of his multi-billion euro empire it is losing an estimated £40 million EVERY WEEK and has lost four billion in value since March 2010.

• described organisations now involved in his former business as "like vultures feeding off a carcass".

• declared his beloved Quinn Group "dead and gone".

The 65-year-old says IBRC, who he still refers to as Anglo, has informed him of their intention to try and recoup the €2.8 billion they say he owes them and he says they are after his home.

Speaking for the first time since being made bankrupt in the South earlier this week, Mr. Quinn described Monday's judgement as "devastating" for him, and said it was something that he had hoped would have been avoided.

"Because I haven't owned any companies or businesses since 2002, the assets that can be taken from me are minimal, however, I feel that the fact that I am now bankrupt has ruined my reputation which I built up over many years through a lot of hard work. I am now heading into retirement penniless, and I'm very sad that it has come to this," he said.

Mr. Quinn believes that the huge debts "will never be paid back" now that he is no longer in control of his global insurance, manufacturing and property businesses. He says he simply cannot pay them.

"Every opportunity that they (IBRC) get, they say, do you realise that Sean Quinn borrowed €2.8 billion? That is just not true. Anglo gave the Quinn companies €2.3 billion to support Anglo's own shares, because of their fear that their bank would collapse. I signed personal guarantees on all of Quinn Group borrowings, and that is how I became bankrupt. I no longer own or control any business, they have taken my tools from me, so I no longer have the means of paying back any money", he said.

He claims that by March 2012 IBRC will have taken four billion of wealth out of the Quinn Group of companies.

"The companies have lost four billion in value since 2010, they are losing €40 million a week now; that's the taxman who is losing that. People will say I am talking about hysterical figures but I wouldn't have forecasted this 12 months ago. I said two years ago that bringing in the administrator [to Quinn Direct] was one of the worst decisions in the history of the State. People laughed at that but I think they are laughing less at that today, and will laugh even less again in a year's time," he said.

Mr. Quinn accused IBRC of having a "personal vendetta" against him, a claim IBRC have denied this week.

"I can't get to the bottom of it; I don't understand why it makes such a difference to them where I am bankrupt, and I don't understand why they spent so much taxpayer's money needlessly. My statement of assets is exactly the same whether it's being read north or south of the Border. When Anglo talks about the process being cheaper in the south, it makes no sense to me. I have owned no assets since 2002, so their prospect of recouping anything, in any jurisdiction, is zero," he said.

The businessman, who is planning a tell-all book, says he is adamant that the "truth will come out" eventually.

"The story they (IBRC) have told is that if the regulator hadn't put an administrator into Quinn Direct it would have went into default. If they hadn't put a share receiver into Derrylin it would have gone into default. The facts are that Quinn Direct was never in default, it was solvent, it was a very profitable company, and it increased its cash by £215 million in the 15 months before it went into administration. Back early on when Quinn Direct went into administration a certain individual from RTE said 'Regulator one, Sean Quinn zero', I think that mindset says it all".

And he described the annulment of his bankruptcy in Northern Ireland last week as "fairly irrelevant", but admitted he was shocked by IBRC's move to reverse his bankruptcy in the first place."I went for bankruptcy in the north on the basis that I worked in Northern Ireland all of my life. I was born here and lived here for 32/33 years before moving to Ballyconnell. I worked every day, 300 days a year, in Derrylin so to me, that was my centre of main interest. It never even occurred to me that there might be any risk to that because the world and the crows knew that I always worked here and never anywhere else so it came as a shock when Anglo contested that".

He added: "As far as I'm concerned, it was a huge waste of taxpayer's money, but there's a lot of taxpayer's money being wasted in the Quinn companies. Between accountants, solicitors, actuaries, forensic and restructuring advisors, there are over 35 foreign companies giving their expert advice, and bleeding every penny from the company. They are like vultures feeding off a carcass. There are also some Irish companies doing very well out of the situation; the security and PR companies are getting enormous fees on a monthly basis, and it now appears to be a free for all. I find it ironic that these huge fees are being taken from Quinn companies to pay for a big PR campaign against me. It would be funny if it wasn't true", he added.

Mr. Quinn believes that the Irish Government, which he says has a 75 per cent stake in the Quinn Group, "don't know what's really going on".

"We had one and a quarter billion of borrowing in Derrylin and we paid interest on that every day. We never had a problem paying that. Now Anglo are having problems, rather than paying the interest on one and a quarter billion, they are only paying the interest on £475 million and nobody is kicking up; everyone seems happy with that. Do they realise that the interest is just rolling up on the rest, and increasing the debt? People think 'Oh, they (IBRC) are doing a fantastic job, they are saving jobs, and the company would have went bankrupt only for them'. And the public and the media are falling for it, and that just beats me. That's not my story, that's a fact.

"The guys that are now running the Quinn Group are getting £1,000 an hour. Some of the guys representing Anglo in Belfast two weeks ago were getting £4,000 an hour. I think that between 2010 and 2017, hundreds of millions will be spent on advisors to the Quinn group of companies. That's money from the Irish taxpayer, and nobody is saying anything about it," he said.

Before he lost control of his company, Mr. Quinn planned to expand. He says he had planning permission for a new plastics factory in Ballyconnell, planned an extension on the packaging plant, had planning permission to create an alternative waste programme on the cement factory, planned a new chemical plant in Germany, and was expanding Quinn Direct. He says the projects would have created 1,000 new jobs.

"I was always a business man. I enjoyed what I did and would do many of the same things again; though obviously I have learned a lot. The company atmosphere and the business meant everything to me. I was very proud of having such a diverse range of businesses. Some businesses are very isolated and stand very much on their own. The Quinn businesses were almost all inter-related and fairly dependent on one another, that made for a close knit group of employees and I believe a wonderful work environment.

"We had a job for everyone, no matter what your skill-set was; if you wanted to work in a hotel we had a job for you; if you wanted to work in financial services we had a job for you. if you wanted to work as an accountant, a secretary, or in the quarry, radiators or glass we had jobs for everybody; male, female, educated, uneducated. I think that's what made us successful. We built up a great rapport with the locals. That's all dead and gone now. Everybody I meet, whether they're a Quinn employee or not, talks of a change of atmosphere and a lack of trust in the community," he said.

The Derrylin man says he continues to be grateful for all the support he has received from local people in Fermanagh, Cavan and the surrounding area.

"I'd say there is more support for the Quinn family in the last two or three months than there has ever been and the reason for that is that I think it's beginning to dawn on people that there is something fundamentally wrong. We have had thousands of letters over Christmas. People are even more supportive now than they were a year and a half ago," he said.

Asked about his future potential endeavours, Mr. Quinn said he had no definite plans yet, but added: "Although Anglo have ensured that I can never create another job, or contribute to the country as a businessman, I can and will continue to contribute to my community as I have always done. I have a wealth of knowledge and experience which I want to put to the best possible use," he said.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on January 23, 2012, 09:47:02 PM
Sean Quinn brought this all on himself. He wanted to take over Anglo and then when he could have taken a loss and walked away he chased his losses down. The risk taking that made him such a great entrepreneur was ultimately his downfall.Then when he was given a fine in 2008, he should have heeded the warning and got Quinn Direct in order before it was put in administration by the new regulator.

Having said that is sad to see such a great entrepreneur end up this way. If there had been any financial regulation in Ireland he would have been saved from himself.Sean Quinn has created more jobs in Ireland than the current government will during it's lifetime and surely some sort of deal could have been reached where most of the assets were handed over to Anglo and Sean Quinn could have been declared bankrupt in the North and been allowed to go back to creating jobs in a years time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on January 23, 2012, 10:37:43 PM
Quote from: Orangemac on January 23, 2012, 09:47:02 PM
Sean Quinn brought this all on himself. He wanted to take over Anglo and then when he could have taken a loss and walked away he chased his losses down. The risk taking that made him such a great entrepreneur was ultimately his downfall.Then when he was given a fine in 2008, he should have heeded the warning and got Quinn Direct in order before it was put in administration by the new regulator.

Having said that is sad to see such a great entrepreneur end up this way. If there had been any financial regulation in Ireland he would have been saved from himself.Sean Quinn has created more jobs in Ireland than the current government will during it's lifetime and surely some sort of deal could have been reached where most of the assets were handed over to Anglo and Sean Quinn could have been declared bankrupt in the North and been allowed to go back to creating jobs in a years time.

+1

The hubris and glee at Anglo getting their pound of flesh in the dublin media and their cheerleaders is depressing. This is a good feed for the Parasite sector which is unrivalled outside of the pale.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 03, 2012, 11:16:48 AM
Cases being heard today on whether the Children and wife have a right to challange the Anglo loans.

ANGLO Irish Bank unlawfully tried to prop up its share price by "shovelling" about €2.34bn of loans into companies in the Sean Quinn group, a court heard yesterday.

This was after it had learned in September 2007 of a "towering" Quinn shareholding in Anglo which could collapse the bank, a lawyer for Sean Quinn's wife and children alleged.

Brian O'Moore SC said Anglo's then CEO David Drumm was told by Sean Quinn Snr in December 2007 that a €400m loan was needed to pay off the companies' loans -- in order to avoid having to disclose the extent of the shareholding in Anglo -- and that Mr Drumm then said the bank would provide €500m "to tidy up matters".

The claims were made on the opening day of a hearing before the Commercial Court of a preliminary issue in an action by the family to avoid liability for the loans to Anglo.

Mr O'Moore said the bank sought to have the loans disguised as property and other loans but knew they were to fund margin calls on "contracts for difference (CfD) positions" taken out in Anglo by Sean Quinn Snr via Madeira-registered company Bazzely. This was to avoid the 24pc Quinn shareholding being made public knowledge, counsel said.

The bank engaged in "very serious illegal activity" on a "persistent, ongoing basis" involving an "egregious" and "almost deliberate" breach of laws carrying penalties of €10m and/or a maximum 10-year jail sentence, counsel said.

Anglo was not entitled to recover €2.34bn from Patricia Quinn or her children, who owned but did not manage Bazzely, under various guarantees and share pledges provided by them over loans tainted with illegality, said counsel.

"Illegality was central to this -- there would have been no loans without a desire to manipulate the market," he said.

Loans

The bank, for example, provided about €300m over three days around St Patrick's Day in March 2008 to meet margin calls when its share price plummeted, counsel said.

Reflecting on the bank's "wild willingness" to do this, the knowledge of the purpose of those loans was "striking", argued Mr O'Moore, adding: "No one in the bank seems to have stood back and asked, why are we shovelling all this money into our own shareholding?'"

"Systems" were put in place to ensure that the 24pc stake in Anglo held by the Quinns did not become public knowledge, Mr O'Moore said.

Up to September 2007, about €750m of the Quinn group's own monies were put into building up the stake.

But after March 2008, as Anglo's share price continued to fall, the bank shovelled €2.34bn of its money in an ultimately unsuccessful effort to prop up the Anglo Irish Bank share price and avert "catastrophic" consequences.

Certain Anglo personnel, said counsel, would be told by Quinn group personnel what funds were required and the money would be advanced.

Mr Justice Peter Charleton rejected a last-minute attempt by the Quinn family to use a previously unknown expert report as part of their bid to be allowed to challenge the legality of more than €2bn of loans advanced by Anglo.

The family's lawyer claimed that the report showed that the 28pc stake built up by the Quinns was "towering and dominant" on Anglo's share register and proved that the bank would have been "acutely concerned" about how it was to be "unravelled".

The argument goes to the heart of the family's contention that the €2bn was loaned illegally for the sole purpose of propping up the bank's own share price by preventing the forced sale of the stake -- something they say would breach laws on market manipulation and other legislation.

The judge said that he didn't have "any doubts" in refusing to allow discussion of the report to proceed because yesterday's court session was not a full-on hearing.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2012, 11:22:26 AM
Quinn hasn't a prayer of winning this.

His case seems to be: I told them they better give me money or their share price collapses. They did. But they shouldn't have done it as it protected the share price. Therefore I owe nothing.

But he may pull the lot down with him. That might not be a bad thing at all.

*Orders more popcorn*
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 03, 2012, 11:29:59 AM
Do the "broke" and bankrupt Quinns get legal aid for all these Court cases?
If Quinn and all the other fcukers who destroyed this country used the money they obviously have to pay some of their debts instead of giving it to legal bigwigs in a series of never ending Court cases.........
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 03, 2012, 11:36:03 AM
But it's not SQ running the claims. It's the kids and Patricia. It was their assets that SQ and Anglo used. They are claiming to have had no input into the guarantees and that it was organised by SQ and Anglo to their detriment. I agree that if it was SQ running it, it wouldn't stand a chance.

Course it means if they win it'll drop SQ into more trouble.



Quote from: Rossfan on February 03, 2012, 11:29:59 AM
Do the "broke" and bankrupt Quinns get legal aid for all these Court cases?
If Quinn and all the other fcukers who destroyed this country used the money they obviously have to pay some of their debts instead of giving it to legal bigwigs in a series of never ending Court cases.........

The Quinns aren't bankrupt (yet). Only SQ is.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2012, 11:41:21 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 03, 2012, 11:36:03 AM
But it's not SQ running the claims. It's the kids and Patricia. It was their assets that SQ and Anglo used. They are claiming to have had no input into the guarantees and that it was organised by SQ and Anglo to their detriment. I agree that if it was SQ running it, it wouldn't stand a chance.

Course it means if they win it'll drop SQ into more trouble.



Quote from: Rossfan on February 03, 2012, 11:29:59 AM
Do the "broke" and bankrupt Quinns get legal aid for all these Court cases?
If Quinn and all the other fcukers who destroyed this country used the money they obviously have to pay some of their debts instead of giving it to legal bigwigs in a series of never ending Court cases.........

The Quinns aren't bankrupt (yet). Only SQ is.

Given that the lawyers and investigators are inexplicably spending their time, and taxpayer's money, reading websites such as this, I will refrain from saying any more.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 03, 2012, 11:49:16 AM
No worries.

At this stage I think it's just to see if they have a case at all. So it won't be going in-depth at this stage. But I would be surprised considering the goings on in Anglo if they didn't allow a full investigation into it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 05, 2012, 03:55:15 PM
This makes interesting Reading.

UK report concludes that bank's conduct was not 'market practice'

AN expert report that the Quinn family unsuccessfully tried to use in their legal action against the former Anglo Irish Bank concluded that the €2.3bn it lent to Sean Quinn artificially maintained its share price.
The Quinn family commissioned the report from UK firm Navigant Consulting as part of its legal action against the bank. Hugo Watson Brown, a director, concluded that Anglo's conduct was "not accepted market practice" and said that no bank other than Anglo would have lent the former tycoon so much money.
A leaked copy of the report suggests that if the former tycoon didn't get the loans, and had to sell his secret stake in the bank, Anglo's share price would have fallen by 67 per cent.
The report supports the Quinns' arguments in their dispute with Anglo as outlined in their statements of claim. Sean Quinn, once Ireland's richest man, is now bankrupt, his empire is in receivership, and his wife, Patricia, and their five children are being pursed for overseas assets worth €500m.
The Quinns claim the loans were illegal in the first place, and are therefore not enforceable. However, Anglo dismisses their claims, arguing that the family members signed personal guarantees for the loans and has accused them of conspiracy to put their assets out of reach.
The London-based consultancy was asked to examine the central plank of the Quinns' case against the bank: that loans to Quinn family companies were made for an illegal purpose and constituted market manipulation. But the family failed to have the report introduced as evidence in their legal action which opened in the Commercial Court with a preliminary hearing on legal issues.
The consultants' report draws on the Quinns' account of how the businessman built up his secret stake in Anglo Irish Bank through contracts for difference (CFDs); how Sean FitzPatrick, the bank's chairman and David Drumm, its chief executive, met with Mr Quinn, when he revealed for the first time that he had a 24 per cent stake in the bank through CFDs.
Mr Quinn was banking on Anglo's share price rising. When it started falling during the financial crash of 2007, Mr Quinn had to pay the brokers' margin calls. If he didn't, his CFDs would have flooded the market, triggering a further decline in Anglo's share price.
Mr Watson Brown noted that "by June 2008, Anglo had lent Quinn Finance or related companies close to €2bn and to the extent that (if) it was secured at all, it was done so against property development projects that had not had the benefit of funds".
Mr Watson Brown said there was "no commercial rationale" behind Anglo's loans to the Quinn companies. He didn't believe that "any bank, other than Anglo" would have loaned money to the Quinn companies to cover losses on Mr Quinn's CFD stake. He calculated that if the Quinns' stake had been sold "under distressed circumstances", Anglo's share price would have fallen by 67 per cent.
Mr Watson Brown concluded that Anglo's loans to the Quinn family companies were "made with the express intention of ensuring that the CFD positions were maintained". He said it followed that the loans "directly maintained" the positions on the bank's shares that otherwise would have been sold.
During last week's court hearing, Anglo's counsel said it was the family's own case that it was Sean Quinn who had engaged in the market manipulation, he was responsible for the investment strategy and had not discussed his decisions with his family.
- MAEVE SHEEHAN
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 05, 2012, 06:47:31 PM
Is this the report that the judge refused to allow to be produced at last week's hearing ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 05, 2012, 07:30:00 PM
Yeah. Judge's view was that this isn't an indepth look at the merits of the claim. But just to decide whether there actually is a case or not.
Seems a strange decision to refuse it And raised more than a few eyebrows but maybe it is too detailed for this stage.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 05, 2012, 07:37:30 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 05, 2012, 07:30:00 PM
Yeah. Judge's view was that this isn't an indepth look at the merits of the claim. But just to decide whether there actually is a case or not.
Seems a strange decision to refuse it And raised more than a few eyebrows but maybe it is too detailed for this stage.

This leak will make sure that it is included if there is a full review of Anglo behaviour / misbehaviour.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 06, 2012, 06:33:20 PM
Quote from: orangeman on February 05, 2012, 06:47:31 PM
Is this the report that the judge refused to allow to be produced at last week's hearing ??

QuoteThe Quinn family commissioned the report from UK firm Navigant Consulting

Can I presume they will now press charges against Sean Quinn on the basis of the same report?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 06, 2012, 06:45:02 PM
I would say that will more than likely follow alright if the judge allows the cases to go forward.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 06, 2012, 07:19:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 06, 2012, 06:45:02 PM
I would say that will more than likely follow alright if the judge allows the cases to go forward.

I think this trial may be prove to be very useful. The Quinns are taking a case that official Ireland has avoided to date. Lenihan refused to set up an enquiry at all (remember his 30 years comment?) at first, then he said any enquiry didn't need to examine the political handling of the crisis (http://www.businessandleadership.com/news/item/23960-lenihan-crafts-bank-inquiry) and then finally we had the limited (to be polite) Nyberg report (http://www.bankinginquiry.gov.ie/). This may force a closer look at one of the more pungent events.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 07, 2012, 08:24:23 AM
That's if it's allowed to get to trial Muppet, althought I would find it hard to believe that the judge could refuse a full hearing into it considering the amount of doubt over how Anglo dealt with the loans. Haven't said that they were very surprised that the judge didn't allow the UK report to be submitted.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 07, 2012, 04:17:26 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 07, 2012, 08:24:23 AM
That's if it's allowed to get to trial Muppet, althought I would find it hard to believe that the judge could refuse a full hearing into it considering the amount of doubt over how Anglo dealt with the loans. Haven't said that they were very surprised that the judge didn't allow the UK report to be submitted.

QuoteThe Quinn family commissioned the report

I am not the least bit surprised he didn't allow it. How could this be considered evidence?

Do you think you would be convinced by an equivalent 'report' commissioned by Anglo on behalf of Anglo?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 07, 2012, 04:35:01 PM
The reason he didn't allow it wasn't that it was commissioned by the Quinns. It was because he said that it was too detailed for this stage of the case. But that it could be used in the event of a full trial going ahead. So if the cases go ahead of course an expert report can be used as evidence regardless of who commissioned it. Anglo will obviously get the opportunity to dispute the report but I would say it'll definitely be a part of the Quinns claims.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 07, 2012, 05:20:59 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 07, 2012, 04:35:01 PM
The reason he didn't allow it wasn't that it was commissioned by the Quinns. It was because he said that it was too detailed for this stage of the case. But that it could be used in the event of a full trial going ahead. So if the cases go ahead of course an expert report can be used as evidence regardless of who commissioned it. Anglo will obviously get the opportunity to dispute the report but I would say it'll definitely be a part of the Quinns claims.

I would imagine they will bring in the expert testimony, rather than his report, thus allowing for cross-examination.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 07, 2012, 08:16:26 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0903/1224303404970.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0903/1224303404970.html)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on February 07, 2012, 09:19:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 07, 2012, 08:16:26 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0903/1224303404970.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0903/1224303404970.html)

Some of that is scary. The reality must have caused some seriously high blood pressure in those involved. The money spent on schmoozing and parties is ludicrous
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 23, 2012, 05:56:51 PM
From RTE

The High Court has ruled that Seán Quinn's wife, Patricia, and the Quinns' five children are entitled to make arguments that the former Anglo Irish Bank breached Market Abuse Regulations and company legislation in its loans to the family in their action against the bank.

Mr Justice Peter Charleton was giving his ruling on a preliminary issue in the case being taken by the family. The Quinns allege that Anglo lent them more than €2 billion for the illegal purpose of propping up its own share price.

The judge said it would be contrary to public policy were the Quinns to be shut out from responding to the "flagrant illegality" they allege against Anglo and Seán Quinn.

He said if a series of financial transactions can be called "horrific" that epithet would apply to the allegations made by the Quinns against Anglo and Mr Quinn.

The main action being taken by the Quinns against the bank is due to be heard at a later date.

A Quinn family statement said they were very pleased with the outcome of today's judgment and welcomed the chance to present their case to the High Court in the fullest possible way.

IBRC, the former Anglo Irish Bank, said it would now go ahead with a full defence and counterclaim to the claims made by the Quinn family.

"IBRC, on behalf of the State, is seeking repayment in full of all outstanding monies due to it and believes there is no basis whatsoever to any of the claims being made by the Quinn family," it said.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 26, 2012, 12:40:26 PM
Sean Quinn, Sean Jr and Peter Quinn jr all up in court this week with regards to the contempt of court charges, with the possibility of looking at Jail time if things go badly.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on March 30, 2012, 10:30:17 AM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0330/1224314097321.html

A NEPHEW of bankrupt businessman Seán Quinn has told the High Court he knew nothing about a trust set up for the Quinn family, despite several signatures of his witnessing documents related to that trust.

He was in the habit of signing "bundles" of documents and while no one in the family had said anything to him about a trust, he "would not be surprised by anything" in the "debacle" between Anglo Irish Bank and the Quinns, Peter Darragh Quinn said.

Mr Quinn also said he did not know anything about what happened to a sum of $4.5 million (€3.4 million) moved between accounts of a Russian company of which he was the sole signatory.

No one, he said, was in "overall control" of steps taken in various international jurisdictions with a view to putting multimillion-euro assets of the Quinn international property group (IPG) beyond the reach of Anglo.

There was "no huge overall strategy"; it was "very much a fire-fighting thing" and actions taken were "reactive", in response to what Anglo did. If that led to court cases in every jurisdiction, "so be it", he added.

Mr Quinn said he was never involved at "a higher level" and had no involvement in court proceedings involving the Quinns in Cyprus and Sweden concerning Quinn companies.

The cross-examination of Mr Quinn, acting general manager of international property assets held by the Quinn Group from 2009, continued yesterday in the hearing before Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne of the bank's application for orders for attachment and committal against him, Seán Quinn snr and Seán Quinn jnr for alleged contempt.

The bank contends the three acted in contempt of court orders of June and July 2011 restraining dissipation of assets in the IPG. In denying those claims, they have argued various steps to place assets beyond Anglo's reach were carried out prior to the orders.

On his fourth day in the witness box yesterday, Peter Quinn agreed with senior counsel Paul Gallagher, for IBRC, that incorrect information was given by the Quinn side to a court in Cyprus when it granted injunctions sought by the family against the bank.

Mr Quinn stressed he himself was not involved in the Cyprus case and said Aoife Quinn had dealt with matters in proceedings in Cyprus and Sweden.

He agreed that, while the family had sought injunctions restraining changes in the structure and shareholdings of various Quinn companies, steps were taken by them in the days prior to the June 27th, 2011, Cyprus court hearing that altered shareholdings.

He agreed the Cyprus court was given incorrect information in an affidavit by Aoife Quinn concerning the May/June 2011 bankruptcy of a Russian company, Finansstroy (of which Mr Quinn was general director at the time). That was because Ms Quinn "misunderstood" a sequence of events related to that company, he said.

He agreed the Cyprus court was told various Russian companies in the IPG were wholly owned subsidiaries of Cyprus companies in the IPG when they were not, due to withdrawals of shareholdings allegedly signed by Aoife Quinn on June 20th, 2011, purportedly as a director of a Cypriot company in the IPG, Carcer Management Ltd. [The bank disputes that Ms Quinn was in fact a director].

When Mr Gallagher put to Mr Quinn that a sworn statement by him describing Finansstroy as a wholly owned subsidiary of Carcer was a lie if the withdrawal was executed by Aoife Quinn as alleged, Mr Quinn said the withdrawal was executed and his description of the status of Finansstroy was incorrect and a "material oversight" but not a lie.

Mr Gallagher also asked several questions in the context of the bank's claim of a systematic transfer of shares in various Russian companies in the IPG to offshore entities primarily registered in Belize and Panama.

Mr Quinn agreed, during a one-day trip by him to Dubai on June 20th, 2011, he discussed setting up off-shore companies in Belize and Panama as well as a possible trust structure for proposed new business ventures for the family.

The case continues
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 18, 2012, 09:11:42 AM
More good news from the family that keeps on giving

Policyholders face €1bn bill to cover cost of Quinn's UK losses

By Laura Noonan
Wednesday April 18 2012
THE collapse of Quinn Insurance could leave Irish policyholders footing a bill for close to €1bn -- well above the €600m initially expected -- the insurer's administrators have warned the Department of Finance.

The news means consumers face paying the 2pc "Quinn Insurance levy" on all general insurance policies for more than 15 years to cover the cost of Quinn's hefty losses in the UK.

The latest published figure for the black hole at Quinn Insurance Ltd (QIL) is €785m.

The Irish Independent has learned that administrators have submitted new figures to the Department of Finance providing for a demand of close to €1bn from the Insurance Compensation Fund (ICF).

Sources stressed that the ultimate call on the ICF may go down if the administrators raise more than they expect from the sale of assets left with QIL, including wind farms.

The ICF demand would also be reduced if the claims experience on the book of business left with QIL improves or if QIL mananges to recoup money from third parties.

The claims left with QIL mainly stem from UK professional indemnity, commercial and motor insurance business written by the Cavan insurer.

Some sources suggested the authorities had guided QIL to provision for a "greater level of confidence" on what its future claims could be, ultimately pushing up the provision level and estimated call on the ICF.

There has also been some deterioration in the claims experience of the policies left with QIL, particularly those issued between 2006 and 2008.

A spokesman for the Department of Finance declined to comment on the higher predicted costs, saying the level of provisioning was "a matter for the joint administrators to determine".

"Any draw down (from the ICF) is subject to approval from the High Court," he added.

QIL's joint administrators, Grant Thornton's Paul McCann and Michael McAteer, declined to comment.

The Government has already committed to temporarily funding the gap between the money QIL needs to pay imminent claims, since the defunct insurer will need money faster than the levy can raise it.

The higher overall cost is not expected to increase the demands on the State this year. This is because the increased provisions for claims largely relate to difficult "long-tailed" claims which are likely to take several years to settle.

When QIL first went into administration in March 2010, the insurer was expected to be able to honour all its claims without needing any money from outside sources. The prospect of an ICF call first emerged the following April.

The deterioration was blamed on a sharp worsening in the claims experience on UK professional indemnity insurance and commercial policies.

QIL founder Sean Quinn, who lost control of the company when regulators discovered QIL's assets had been used to guarantee €1.2bn of borrowings for other Quinn Group companies, described the ICF call as "an appalling admission" of the damage that had been caused to QIL.

- Laura Noonan
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 18, 2012, 11:15:01 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 18, 2012, 09:11:42 AM
More good news from the family that keeps on giving


This black hole was created by the regulator
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 18, 2012, 11:51:19 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 18, 2012, 11:15:01 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 18, 2012, 09:11:42 AM
More good news from the family that keeps on giving


This black hole was created by the regulator
The Quinns have shafted the people of Ireland . What's the cost per head of the Quinn meltdown? Say there are 4.5 million people in Ireland .
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thebigfella on April 18, 2012, 11:52:54 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 18, 2012, 11:15:01 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 18, 2012, 09:11:42 AM
More good news from the family that keeps on giving


This black hole was created by the regulator

Sure it was, sure it was  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 01:21:01 PM
Again Anglo are reluctant to provide more detailed information on why this was needed? They refused to provide the details when the Levy was first introduced and the need for the levy was contested, and they are still doing the same.
And there's barely been a word about the huge sweetener that was given to Liberty and the ridiculous sales process that ended up in Anglo giving away such a huge chunk of the profits for such small re numeration.
What might be more of a worry for the tax payer is that if the Quinn Children win their case regarding the illegal loans (and lets be honest things are kinda stacking up badly against Anglo at this stage when you take in to account Browns recent cases and the fact the children have been given legal standing to run the cases)then the tax payer could be looking at an additional bill for compensation to the Quinn family for a massive amount as well as losing control over the foreign assets and the Quinn Group.

And I believe things aren't going well with Anglo as regards to the Bond holders. The figures they promised when they were organising the takeover were missed by a long shot and now the bondholders are getting restless and some of the more prominent ones are looking immediate action to rectify the situation. And these include a few very Pro Quinn people. I can't see the current CEO of the group lasting another 6 months and I would imagine he won't be the last. And the company that organised the takeover, Grant Thorton, are also getting quite a bit of stick with regards the massive shortfall in the figures. 

A settlement should have been reached on this ages ago. The money that's being wasted on courts and solicitors is crazy and regardless of what happened to the Quinns getting into the mess (This doesn't release them from blame), what Anglo have done to get out of it is worse.

But don't be surprised if it all suddenly disappears as I don't believe Anglo will be allowed to let it run much farther and I can still see a deal coming of. But stable doors and horses spring to mind.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 18, 2012, 01:36:36 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on April 18, 2012, 11:52:54 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on April 18, 2012, 11:15:01 AM
Quote from: Declan on April 18, 2012, 09:11:42 AM
More good news from the family that keeps on giving


This black hole was created by the regulator

Sure it was, sure it was  ::)

That may seem like a head in the sand statement when you look at the sindo headlines, but look a bit deeper.

The regulator went in, stopped Quinn insurance from doing business, said this was the way to go, and that no extra money would be needed to honour claims. (At the time and since, Quinn and others said there were much better ways to resolve it, the business at that point was profitable)

Now, 2 years later, they say they need a billion. And they can make such an unbelievable statement wiothout fear of repercussion because theres a big bogeyman they can point to for everything. At the very least (even if we were to assume their action over Quinns was completely correct), its incredible inepetitude that they were out by £1BILLION in their calculations of what they needed - its their job to work things like this out, and regardless of Quinns wrongdoing, they should be accountable for it. But no, the headlines say 'Quinn', everyone rolls their eyes and says 'That ****!' and switches off.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 01:47:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 01:21:01 PM
A settlement should have been reached on this ages ago. The money that's being wasted on courts and solicitors is crazy and regardless of what happened to Craig Whyte and David Murray getting into the mess (This doesn't release them from blame), what HMRC have done to get out of it is worse.

That'd work just as well in another context. And it would be just as wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 01:55:41 PM
Do they have illegal debts aswell?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 01:57:50 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 01:55:41 PM
Do they have illegal debts aswell?

They've been just as dishonest in their use of money as Seán Quinn has been

(Edit: and the cost to the taxpayer will be a lot less)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:04:03 PM
That's not what I asked? Are the depts they owe illegal? Did the revenue act illegally in the application of they depts?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 02:07:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:04:03 PM
That's not what I asked? Are the depts they owe illegal? Did the revenue act illegally in the application of they depts?

No. But a settlement can still be reached with them if the will was there. And the will shouldn't be there for bandits of any stripe.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:16:45 PM
Why would there be a will, considering the tax office hadn't acted illegally in their implementation of the debt?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 02:23:45 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:16:45 PM
Why would there be a will, considering the tax office hadn't acted illegally in their implementation of the debt?

There shouldn't be. And there shouldn't be the will to leave Seán Quinn off his debt. Had he made money off his 'illegal debt' he wouldn't be giving it back, would he? As I said, no consideration for bandits
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:27:08 PM
Firstly it's not Sean Quinns dept. It's his kids. And if Anglo forced additional dept onto the group to maintain it's share prices then I don't agree these depts should be enforceable. and the actions that Anglo have taken since then has reinforced this opinion.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 02:42:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:27:08 PM
Firstly it's not Sean Quinns dept. It's his kids.

I wonder did you see the same fine distinction David Drumm passed his assets to this wife.

Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:27:08 PMAnd if Anglo forced additional dept onto the group to maintain it's share prices then I don't agree these depts should be enforceable. and the actions that Anglo have taken since then has reinforced this opinion.

That remains to be determined and any settlement will only encourage future wrong-doers into thinking that they'll get a settlement as well. Let's have an end to cosy deals.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:51:07 PM
Quote from: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 02:42:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:27:08 PM
Firstly it's not Sean Quinns dept. It's his kids.

I wonder did you see the same fine distinction David Drumm passed his assets to this wife.


Considering Sean Quinn didn't "pass" his assets over and that they were always in the Kids name from day one, I'd say yeah there is a difference!

Quote from: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 02:42:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:27:08 PMAnd if Anglo forced additional dept onto the group to maintain it's share prices then I don't agree these depts should be enforceable. and the actions that Anglo have taken since then has reinforced this opinion.

That remains to be determined and any settlement will only encourage future wrong-doers into thinking that they'll get a settlement as well. Let's have an end to cosy deals.

So you would be happier letting Financial organisations get away with illegality?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 03:04:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:51:07 PM
Considering Sean Quinn didn't "pass" his assets over and that they were always in the Kids name from day one, I'd say yeah there is a difference!

Again, that has to be determined. There's ample prima facie evidence (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0327/1224313952834.html) that the Quinns have being passing assets around to hide their wealth away from their creditors. They're claiming it was the beastly Anglo wot made them do it, but funnily enough I'm not willing to take their word for it.

Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:27:08 PM
So you would be happier letting Financial organisations get away with illegality?

If a deal is made, the degree of the illegality will never be determined. I don't know how you think illegality will be established if there's a deal. So no, I don't want to see people getting away with illegality.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 03:14:57 PM
Quote from: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 03:04:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:51:07 PM
Considering Sean Quinn didn't "pass" his assets over and that they were always in the Kids name from day one, I'd say yeah there is a difference!

Again, that has to be determined. There's ample prima facie evidence (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0327/1224313952834.html) that the Quinns have being passing assets around to hide their wealth away from their creditors. They're claiming it was the beastly Anglo wot made them do it, but funnily enough I'm not willing to take their word for it.

But the assets were in the children's name from day one as i mentioned earlier. The current asset roundabout is to prevent Anglo getting control over assets they are clauiming anglo have no right to.

Quote from: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 03:04:24 PM

Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 02:27:08 PM
So you would be happier letting Financial organisations get away with illegality?

If a deal is made, the degree of the illegality will never be determined. I don't know how you think illegality will be established if there's a deal. So no, I don't want to see people getting away with illegality.
That's a fair enough take on it deiseach, and I hope it goes that way as well. But I can imagine the uproar on here if it goes the full way and instead of having a dept of 2.8 billion outstanding the tax payers could be looking at a dept to the Quinns for something similar.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 03:21:04 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 03:14:57 PM
That's a fair enough take on it deiseach, and I hope it goes that way as well. But I can imagine the uproar on here if it goes the full way and instead of having a dept of 2.8 billion outstanding the tax payers could be looking at a dept to the Quinns for something similar.

That's a novel take on things. How does that follow from what has gone on?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 03:29:28 PM
If the debts are written of due to their illegality it means the take over of the Group and the foreign properties were illegal. They would surrender any right over these assets and will be liable for all costs inccurred through the process including loss of business. This is what the Children's court cases are aiming for.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on April 18, 2012, 03:33:15 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 03:29:28 PM
If the debts are written of due to their illegality it means the take over of the Group and the foreign properties were illegal. They would surrender any right over these assets and will be liable for all costs inccurred through the process including loss of business. This is what the Children's court cases are aiming for.

I see. I doubt if those assets are worth anywhere near €2.8 billion but I take the general point
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2012, 03:46:24 PM
More than likely not. I'd imagine foreign assets are £500M+, Glass would prob be around £400M and not too sure what the rest would add up to. But granted it would struggle to add up to £2.8Billion.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 02, 2012, 01:35:37 PM
Sean Quinn in court today with the threat of jail over contempt proceedings.


She's couped boys I'm telling you she's couped !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on May 04, 2012, 12:23:56 PM
$45m debt transfer was 'a charade'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17943358


A $45m property debt transferred from one of Sean Quinn's companies was part of an "orchestrated, elaborate and illicit charade" a High Court judge said on Thursday.  Mr Justice McCloskey was ruling on a case concerning debts connected to a Ukrainian shopping centre.  Disputed transactions are to be declared void and control returned to the former Anglo Irish Bank.  A chain of loan assignments was under scrutiny in the case.

The judge's ruling strengthens the renamed Irish Bank Resolution Corporation's (IBRC) ongoing attempt to recoup the £2bn plus it claims to be owed.  Proceedings were issued against the British Virgin Islands-registered Lyndhurst Development Trading in order to seize control of the shopping centre in the Ukrainian capital Kiev.  The bank claimed assets were stripped to prevent it securing money it was owed.

Fermanagh-based firm Demesne Investments, of which Mr Quinn is a former director, had been owed $45m (£27.8m) by Univermag, the Ukrainian owners of the shopping centre.  But in April 2011, Demesne transferred its rights to the debt to Innishmore Consultancy, another Northern Ireland company run by Mr Quinn's nephew Peter Quinn.  From there the loan was transferred on to Lyndhurst last October.

Lawyers for IBRC argued that the assignment was a sham, carried out at a massive undervalue and not worth the paper it was written on.  No defence was offered in the case after Lyndhurst's legal team came off record.  Delivering judgment today, Mr Justice McCloskey said: "The abrupt, unexplained and prima facie irrational assignment of a company asset, the $45m debt of which Demesne was the beneficiary, for nothing, or at most something truly minimal, speaks for itself.  "When considered in conjunction with the other related impugned transactions, it is patent that the participants were indulging in an orchestrated, elaborate and illicit charade," he said.  "Based on the available evidence, this exercise had no purpose other than to put this asset beyond the reach of legitimate creditors and/or to prejudice their interests."

According to his assessment, the bank were the victims of the assignments and eligible for an appropriate remedy.  An order is expected to be drawn up next week which will declare all of the disputed transactions null and void.  Demesne is set to be confirmed as solely entitled to the debts, thus putting them back within the reach of the bank.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Smokin Joe on May 15, 2012, 07:35:22 AM
10.35pm tonight on BBC1 - Spotlight; The Hunt for Quinn's Millions

Will be interesting I'd say
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 15, 2012, 09:49:23 AM
Here's a taster -

Sean Quinn Spotlight tracks down company
An investigation by BBC NI's Spotlight into Sean Quinn's empire has tracked down the headquarters of a company that controls more than $100m-worth of assets belonging to Irish taxpayers.

Jim Fitzpatrick travelled to Belize on the hunt for a company that has laid claim to the millions.

Mr Quinn went bankrupt in January owing 2.8bn euros to the Anglo Irish Bank.

It hoped to recover around 500m euros through sales of Quinn Group's international property portfolio

However, the bank, now nationalised and called Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, soon discovered that it had lost control of these valuable assets.

The business empire Sean Quinn built up was itself effectively nationalised last year, leaving taxpayers to inherit the massive debts.

In Ukraine, the bank's appointed property director is locked out of the valuable shopping mall it owns.

Spotlight spoke to Rostislav Levinzon outside the $60m shopping centre in Kiev, but like him could not get inside.

Security guards interrupted filming and told the production team to leave.

Mr Levinzon described how the management team, which the bank dismissed, called police to remove him whenever he tried to take charge.

They arrived with assault rifles.

Mark Rachkevych, a journalist with the Kiev Post, told the programme how that first encounter made the headlines.

"It was embarrassing for everybody there because the management office is next to the bowling alley and this was afternoon time, when a birthday for kids was taking place and mothers saw people with flak vests, helmets and AK47s come in, and they were shocked at seeing this.

"So this is bad for business, whoever is in charge of that place," he said.


Rostislav Levinzon is locked out of a Kiev property he was appointed to The dismissed management remain in charge and Mr Levinzon remains locked out.

Meanwhile, the bank is losing almost $1m a month in rent due to Irish taxpayers.

The programme uncovers documentary evidence in Sweden which demonstrates that Sean Quinn was part of a secret boardroom coup which put him back in charge of the property empire weeks after he had been dismissed from the Quinn Group.

And in Belize, where the biggest slice of taxpayers' money is now tied up, Spotlight finds its surprising home.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on May 15, 2012, 09:20:34 PM
In Sean we trust
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 15, 2012, 10:40:05 PM
Here we go.

BBC 1 now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lecale2 on May 15, 2012, 10:45:21 PM
Great chance for a local BBC production team to visit central America.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 15, 2012, 10:48:03 PM
The sums lent to Quinn by Anglo €2.8billion are staggering.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 15, 2012, 11:23:37 PM
Sean looks like some boy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 15, 2012, 11:30:34 PM
Not a lot of firm evidence against Sean Quinn here. Plenty of speculation.

Can't see Sean, his son or Peter doing time here.

Jim fancies himself as a Darragh Mc Intyre type.

When does the Quinn case against the bank come up ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: shezam on May 15, 2012, 11:43:45 PM
6th June.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18075693
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 15, 2012, 11:47:52 PM
Naw that's the contempt case date. The Quinn v Anglo one won't be til next year.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Radda bout yeee on May 15, 2012, 11:54:39 PM
Does anybody really care if Sean Quinn keeps a lock of pound he did do alot for alot of people.
I think the sentence which sums up the whole programme is when the reporter said the judge gave the quinns time off for Sean jrs wedding! Lol
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 15, 2012, 11:57:10 PM
Quinn is as crooked as a dogs hind leg. Although Anglo should have told him to feck off.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 16, 2012, 12:00:53 AM
Or the alternative is that Anglo were as crooked as a dogs hind leg and Quinn should never have went near them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on May 16, 2012, 12:04:39 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 16, 2012, 12:00:53 AM
Or the alternative is that Anglo were as crooked as a dogs hind leg and Quinn should never have went near them.

This.

Hope he gets keeping his millions as he is the lesser crook in the whole mess.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 16, 2012, 12:05:58 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 16, 2012, 12:00:53 AM
Or the alternative is that Anglo were as crooked as a dogs hind leg and Quinn should never have went near them.
A match made in hell.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on May 16, 2012, 12:10:44 AM
Quinn has 'em fucked. Good man!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on May 16, 2012, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: orangeman on May 15, 2012, 11:30:34 PM
Not a lot of firm evidence against Sean Quinn here. Plenty of speculation.

Can't see Sean, his son or Peter doing time here.

Jim fancies himself as a Darragh Mc Intyre type.

When does the Quinn case against the bank come up ?.

If it goes pear shaped for the Quinns I can see the BBC headline already..."GAA rocked by imprisonment of former President's son"

Some evidence against Peter Jnr mind you.  I think Sam Smyth summed it up best when he said the Quinns would spend the rest of their days in comfort crying about how they should be a lot better off.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 16, 2012, 09:44:11 AM
I wouldn't think so to be honest. They never courted the media when things were going well so I can't see them crying to the media now. I'd imagine when things are finished they'll be looking to move on and trying to start something again. Well that seems to be the impression I get. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on May 16, 2012, 10:15:07 AM
Surely they will still have 'relatively' vast personal fortunes stashed away somewhere, so I would imagine that they will be fine.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 16, 2012, 10:16:03 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 16, 2012, 09:44:11 AM
I wouldn't think so to be honest. They never courted the media when things were going well so I can't see them crying to the media now. I'd imagine when things are finished they'll be looking to move on and trying to start something again. Well that seems to be the impression I get.


It looks like there could be a lot of litigation on both sides ongoing for years.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 16, 2012, 10:30:12 AM
Quote from: NAG1 on May 16, 2012, 10:15:07 AM
Surely they will still have 'relatively' vast personal fortunes stashed away somewhere, so I would imagine that they will be fine.

I wouldn't be so sure. Plus the cost of running these cases will easily run into the millions. And should they lose control of the rest of the assets to Anglo then I can't see the money lasting long. And at the minute they don't have any other business interests generating money.

Course should they win the big cases, they wouldn't have any problems.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Milltown Row2 on May 16, 2012, 12:10:26 PM
People move money all the time so that the banks/goverment don't get their hands on it. Quinn was seriously loaded so it seems a lot but really only relative to his earnings. He employed thousands and must have generated a fortune for the banks along the way. 

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 14, 2012, 10:15:58 PM
Sean Quinn's childrren's assets frozen by Dublin High Court

The Dublin High Court has granted orders freezing the assets owned or controlled by the five adult children of bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn.

The move also covers Mr Quinn's nephew, Peter Darragh Quinn and two sons-in-law Stephen Kelly and Niall McPartland.

The orders were sought by the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation.

Lawyers for the bank said it believed the Quinns had already "misappropriated" assets from their international property group.

The bank claims it is part of a plan to frustrate its efforts to recover loans of up to 2.8bn euros and the Quinns were prepared to dispose of those assets.

The bank claims the family may have continued to take actions implementing the plan, during the contempt proceedings taken against them in the High Court by the bank.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly granted the orders sought by the bank.

He said the allegations against the defendants were of the "utmost seriousness" and, given the "alleged deviousness", he considered the court should intervene and make the orders sought.

The orders mean the Quinns cannot reduce their assets below 50m euros each, except for living expenses of 2,000 euros each until next Wednesday
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 25, 2012, 09:04:32 PM
Big day tomorrow for the Quinns. Decision expected on the contempt cases. Anglo will be hoping tomorrow finishes them and they don't get to run the big cases against them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 25, 2012, 09:13:49 PM
What's the thinking ahead of tomorrow SSS ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 25, 2012, 09:42:42 PM
Not sure OM. I'd be nervious. If they're held in contempt it prob nails they're chances of running the cases against Anglo. So the state will be wanting a guilty verdict. As for whether they're going to get charged or not I couldn't tell you. Think Anglo had a strong case but whether they were fit to prove without doubt I don't know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 25, 2012, 09:45:07 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 25, 2012, 09:42:42 PM
Not sure OM. I'd be nervious. If they're held in contempt it prob nails they're chances of running the cases against Anglo. So the state will be wanting a guilty verdict. As for whether they're going to get charged or not I couldn't tell you. Think Anglo had a strong case but whether they were fit to prove without doubt I don't know.
[/b]

What's the burden of proof in this case ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 25, 2012, 10:00:04 PM
Couldn't tell ya OM. It's criminal court, so they have to prove without doubt as far as I know that the Quinns took action after the 5th July 2011. Anything before that is irrelevant in this case. I know they had documents they said proved it but turned out to be forgeries after handwriting analysis.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 25, 2012, 10:08:16 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 25, 2012, 10:00:04 PM
Couldn't tell ya OM. It's criminal court, so they have to prove without doubt as far as I know that the Quinns took action after the 5th July 2011. Anything before that is irrelevant in this case. I know they had documents they said proved it but turned out to be forgeries after handwriting analysis.

That being the case, case will be thrown out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 25, 2012, 10:15:04 PM
Naw I wouldn't be so sure. There was other stuff as well. But I don't know enough about it in fairness. I'm sure Anglo are confidence they have a strong case so they must have some stuff against them. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 26, 2012, 09:10:10 AM




High Court to rule on whether Quinns breached court orders
Tuesday, June 26, 2012 - 07:31 AM

The High Court will rule today on whether bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn is in contempt of court orders restraining him and his family from moving valuable international assets.

His son Sean Quinn Jnr and his nephew Peter Darragh Quinn are also accused by the former Anglo Irish Bank of breaching the court rulings.

The restraint orders were made because Anglo claims it has securities on Quinn property assets valued at up to €500m in countries including Ukraine and Russia, and it wants them protected.

The Quinns do not deny every effort was made to put valuable international assets beyond the reach of IBRC, formerly Anglo Irish Bank.

What is in contention is whether these steps were taken after (and therefore in breach of) court orders secured by the bank last summer.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 26, 2012, 09:35:57 AM
Even if found guilty of contempt, I can't see the Quinns going to jail.

Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne has indicated that she will rule on whether or not there was contempt of court before hearing arguments about what action should be taken.

The possible penalties for breaching High Court orders include imprisonment as well as fines.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on June 26, 2012, 10:58:06 AM
Guilty M'Lud
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/06/26/this-just-quinn/ (http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/06/26/this-just-quinn/)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 26, 2012, 11:01:16 AM
Big ruling.


Is there leave to appeal ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on June 26, 2012, 11:38:37 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18396329

In her ruling, Judge Elizabeth Dunne described Peter Darragh Quinn's evidence as "evasive, uncooperative and, at times, untruthful."  She said he gave the impression that he would do anything to put assets beyond reach.

The judge said Sean Quinn Junior did not give the truth in evidence and overall was not credible.

Sean Quinn Senior's evidence was also evasive and not credible, she said.

The judge said the Quinn family had taken every step possible to frustrate the IRBC as it tried to recover nearly 500m euros of assets in Russia and Ukraine.

It was "impossible to accept the evidence of Sean Quinn Senior that he had no hand, act or part in Quinn business after April 2011", she said.

She said the family's behaviour was deceitful and blatantly dishonest.

The Quinns are expected back in the High Court on Friday, when arguments will be put forward for further action to be taken against them over the contempt.

Judge Dunne warned the Quinns that, given the seriousness of the contempt case, it would be difficult to persuade her against enforcing action with "a punitive element as well as coercive".

Quinn senior hurried from the court and as he got into a car declared: "I am not dishonest."


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 26, 2012, 11:51:28 AM
Quote from: AQMP on June 26, 2012, 11:38:37 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18396329

In her ruling, Judge Elizabeth Dunne described Peter Darragh Quinn's evidence as "evasive, uncooperative and, at times, untruthful."  She said he gave the impression that he would do anything to put assets beyond reach.

The judge said Sean Quinn Junior did not give the truth in evidence and overall was not credible.

Sean Quinn Senior's evidence was also evasive and not credible, she said.

The judge said the Quinn family had taken every step possible to frustrate the IRBC as it tried to recover nearly 500m euros of assets in Russia and Ukraine.

It was "impossible to accept the evidence of Sean Quinn Senior that he had no hand, act or part in Quinn business after April 2011", she said.

She said the family's behaviour was deceitful and blatantly dishonest.

The Quinns are expected back in the High Court on Friday, when arguments will be put forward for further action to be taken against them over the contempt.

[b]Judge Dunne warned the Quinns that, given the seriousness of the contempt case, it would be difficult to persuade her against enforcing action with "a punitive element as well as coercive".[/b]Quinn senior hurried from the court and as he got into a car declared: "I am not dishonest."


Jail then !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on June 26, 2012, 11:56:36 AM
BILLIONAIRE-turned-bankrupt Sean Quinn, his son Sean and nephew Peter Darragh have all been found in contempt of court for putting assets beyond the reach of the former Anglo-Irish Bank.

Potential punishment for contempt of court in Ireland ranges from fines and seizure of property to a jail sentence.

The former business tycoon, once Ireland's richest man, and his two relatives were found to have defied an order at the High Court in Dublin over the family's international property portfolio.

The lawsuit, brought by the State-owned bank which was rebranded last year to become the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, claimed they shifted assets from as far afield as Ukraine and Russia into new ownership as it pursued €2.8bn debts.

The contempt ruling was delivered by Mrs Justice Elizabeth Dunne at the Four Courts in Dublin.

Delivering her judgement, Mrs Dunne said given the seriousness of the contempt case, it would be difficult to persuade her against enforcing action with "a punitive element as well as coercive".

Quinn senior hurried from the court and as he got into a car declared: "I am not dishonest."

His son and Peter Darragh were also present for the ruling.

It is the latest court battle the Fermanagh-born businessman has lost after he secured bankruptcy in Northern Ireland only for it to be overturned and a Dublin court then to declare him bankrupt.

The contempt lawsuit is one of a series of cases across several jurisdictions as the zombie bank tries to recover a €500m international property portfolio to cover unprecedented debts run up by Mr Quinn in secret and ill-fated share deals in Anglo.

In a hard-hitting judgment criticising the Quinns, Mrs Justice Dunne ruled that Sean Quinn's evidence was not credible.

She said it was "impossible to accept the evidence of Sean Quinn Senior that he had no hand, act or part in Quinn business after April 2011".

A receiver had been appointed by that time to the Quinn Group after Sean Quinn ran up the huge debts on a stock market gamble that the Anglo share price would keep rising.

The judge went on to say that his son Sean was not telling the truth and that the evidence of nephew Peter Darragh Quinn was "most untruthful".

The Quinns are expected back in the High Court on Friday, when arguments will be put forward for further action to be taken against them over the contempt

Mrs Justice Dunne said the bank had faced considerable obstacles, not to say obstruction, and had been opposed at every step as it chased the Quinn assets.

Mr Quinn Senior was described as evasive and unco-operative and accused of making lengthy criticisms of Anglo rather than answering questions in court.

"I am satisfied that he was au fait with the arrangements taking place to implement the plan," the judge ruled.

Mr Quinn Junior was found to have offered some evidence that was "simply unbelievable", including when pressed on why he was in Kiev on August 30 2011.

"As a general overview I have to say that I was not impressed with the manner in which they gave evidence," she said.

"Peter (Darragh) Quinn was evasive, less than forthright, obstructive, unco-operative and, at times, untruthful.

"He conveyed the impression of someone reluctant to be in court, to say as little as possible and of someone who simply did not tell the whole truth."

He would have said and done anything to keep assets away from the former Anglo, the judge ruled.

The bank's pursuit of assets held by the Quinns has led to a paper trail and court cases in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Russia, the Ukraine, Cyprus, Sweden and Belize.

The contempt case was told that, in the Cypriot court battle, misleading affidavits were sworn by the Quinn family.

The judge said that, during his evidence, Mr Quinn Senior spoke of the Quinn Group and its importance as an employer of 7,000 people.

"One can appreciate the ability that led to the creation of such a business empire," she added.

"Sean Quinn Senior also spoke of the honourable, respectable way in which the businesses comprised in the Quinn Group were run.

"I wish I could say the same about the manner in which the respondents have dealt with the adverse circumstances in which they now find themselves having regard to the collapse of the Quinn business empire."

The dispute between Anglo and the Quinns centres on the bank's attempt to recover €2.8bn.

"Instead of trying to repay the admitted debt due, the Quinn family, and in particular the respondents, have taken every step possible to make it as difficult as can be to recover any amount due," the judge continued.

She described efforts to hide assets as complex, complicated and costly and said they were done in a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner.

"They have consciously misled courts here and elsewhere," the judge said.

"They have sought to deprive Anglo of the assets which would go some way to discharging an admitted indebtedness.

"The behaviour of the respondents outlined in evidence before me is as far as removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be."

In a statement, the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation said it had been frustratingly obstructed in trying to recover the property portfolio.

Mike Aynsley, the bank's chief executive, said: "Bringing this contempt motion was a valid and necessary step for IBRC to take.

"The proven planned, covert and illicit actions taken by the Quinns and connected parties have resulted in millions of euros being lost or put at risk.

"IBRC will continue to seek to remedy this and recover as much of the remaining assets as possible on behalf of the Irish taxpayer."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Pangurban on June 26, 2012, 08:50:55 PM
Typical bloody Ireland, hound a Man who created and used wealth too the benefit of his Community and Country, while allowing the Bankers and Financiers who robbed and stole for personal gain go free and unhindered
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Agent Orange on June 26, 2012, 09:34:30 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on June 26, 2012, 08:50:55 PM
Typical bloody Ireland, hound a Man who created and used wealth too the benefit of his Community and Country, while allowing the Bankers and Financiers who robbed and stole for personal gain go free and unhindered

My thoughts exactly. Quinn is as guilty as sin, but no more than the bankers and politicians and none of them will ever end up before the courts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Capt Pat on June 27, 2012, 01:43:02 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on June 26, 2012, 09:34:30 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on June 26, 2012, 08:50:55 PM
Typical bloody Ireland, hound a Man who created and used wealth too the benefit of his Community and Country, while allowing the Bankers and Financiers who robbed and stole for personal gain go free and unhindered
My thoughts exactly. Quinn is as guilty as sin, but no more than the bankers and politicians and none of them will ever end up before the courts.

You forgot the property valuers who valued the property so highly and got paid so well and have carried on regardless. Still claiming to be the best of the best. Not the nicest bunch of people in the world either.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on June 27, 2012, 09:40:56 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on June 26, 2012, 09:34:30 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on June 26, 2012, 08:50:55 PM
Typical bloody Ireland, hound a Man who created and used wealth too the benefit of his Community and Country, while allowing the Bankers and Financiers who robbed and stole for personal gain go free and unhindered

My thoughts exactly. Quinn is as guilty as sin, but no more than the bankers and politicians and none of them will ever end up before the courts.

While I have some sympathy with the broad thrust of these posts, creating wealth and jobs does not give you the right to ignore those bits of the law you find a hindrance to your personal and commercial life.  Also, just because all the guilty are not (yet) in court doesn't mean that no-one should face up to what they have done.  In that case you wouldn't prosecute any murderers/rapists on the basis that all rapists haven't yet been caught.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on June 27, 2012, 09:53:09 AM
QuoteTypical bloody Ireland, hound a Man who created and used wealth too the benefit of his Community and Country, while allowing the Bankers and Financiers who robbed and stole for personal gain go free and unhindered

Great man altogether -
Mrs Justice Dunne ruled that Sean Quinn's evidence was not credible. She said it was "impossible to accept the evidence of Sean Quinn Senior that he had no hand, act or part in Quinn business after April 2011".

She described efforts to hide assets as complex, complicated and costly and said they were done in a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner. "They have consciously misled courts here and elsewhere,"

Jaysus have people forgotten about the insurance premium levy to replace the hole in Quinn Group's accounts when the Govt took it over. Or the sudden placing of large sums of money in his children's 'wealth portfolios' when he was a negative billionaire.
He's been found guilty because he disobeyed a court order and lied about it in order to protect millions from his creditors.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bcarrier on June 27, 2012, 09:55:46 AM
Quote from: Pangurban on June 26, 2012, 08:50:55 PM
Typical bloody Ireland, hound a Man who created and used wealth too the benefit of his Community and Country, while allowing the Bankers and Financiers who robbed and stole for personal gain go free and unhindered

Pangurban

The Sean Quinn story is sad but so far as I am aware no one made him pursue the CFD's in Anglo Irish which were his undoing. There was no benefit to Community or Country in that.

He got into a hole and kept digging. He bet the farm. For that he should accept and take his losses.

That somehow his losses in excess of his assets have ended up the responsibility of the Irish taxpayer is another story ...   


---------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of whataboutery creeping into this thread





Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on June 27, 2012, 09:59:34 AM
I can't believe you're comparing a rapist to Sean Quinn, some of them have some honour!

In seriousness I don't know how anyone can defend this man or his family, they are proving to be as bad as any of the other (alleged) crooks in this depression, Seanie Fitz, Fingers, Bertie et al. I don't see too many people from the republic supporting him, maybe that's because we're the ones paying back the money he is signing away to his grand kids? I know people will always go back to the jobs he has created and there are others there who got away with it but what he is currently doing is as bad as the worst of them.

Lock them up and throw away the key
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bord na Mona man on June 27, 2012, 10:06:21 AM
Miss Justice Dunne...
You couldn't invent a better name for a judge!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on June 27, 2012, 12:39:21 PM
This says it all

SQs protests that he was just a countryman were actually true 

http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/quinn-family-held-in-contempt/

The Quinns were basically slow to react to their 'new' reality if they were ahead of the game and planned properly is there any chance they would be nabbed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on June 27, 2012, 07:10:50 PM
Looking over this whole debacle, I'm reminded of the line in the TV show Hustle - you can't cheat an honest man. No doubt Seanie et al in Anglo were (and are) a shower of crooks, but a truly honest man would have run a mile from their pyramid scheme.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 28, 2012, 01:32:02 PM
So what so you think ?.


Will Sean Quinn and the other 2 lads co operate with Anglo and hand over control of the property to Anglo thereby avoiding jailtime or will they appear obtuse to Justice Dunne tomorrow and force her to come down hard on them ?

Or will they just buy time ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 01:58:34 PM
I'd be surprised if they don't do some time. Dunne has made that pretty clear. The Quinns knew they were playing with fire over the assets and that this was always a possibility. They were motivated by a loathing of Anglo and a feeling of injustice over certain things.
Have to say the courts moved pretty quick on this one. Funny enough not so much movement on the allegations against Anglo of share support and whether the loans Anglo are trying to enforce are even legal. No mention of possible state involvement in this process either. It seems that if the Quinns don't run these cases against Anglo (and everything possible is being done to stop them), the state is happy to let it slide as well. Sounds like justice at all costs, unless of course it costs the state.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 28, 2012, 02:08:52 PM
You surely weren't expecting the department of justice to go after the state in a hurry ?


Best to get shot of the Quinns by throwing them inside for a few years.

This will be some fall if the Quinns are jailed.

Almost as momentous as Martin meeting the queen yesterday and telling us all how nice it was.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 02:48:58 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 27, 2012, 09:59:34 AM
I can't believe you're comparing a rapist to Sean Quinn, some of them have some honour!

And you're a bollix!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thebigfella on June 28, 2012, 02:54:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 01:58:34 PM
I'd be surprised if they don't do some time. Dunne has made that pretty clear. The Quinns knew they were playing with fire over the assets and that this was always a possibility. They were motivated by a loathing of Anglo and a feeling of injustice over certain things.
Have to say the courts moved pretty quick on this one. Funny enough not so much movement on the allegations against Anglo of share support and whether the loans Anglo are trying to enforce are even legal. No mention of possible state involvement in this process either. It seems that if the Quinns don't run these cases against Anglo (and everything possible is being done to stop them), the state is happy to let it slide as well. Sounds like justice at all costs, unless of course it costs the state.   

The more likely scenario is they were motivated by greed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on June 28, 2012, 05:05:44 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

QuoteFirst they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Thank God we have Seán Quinn to speak up for all of us, eh?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?

Loan shark, you have to be either blind or dumb to believe that Anglo weren't supporting their own share price. I mean look at it logically. They lent a man with no assets 2.8 billion. They were able to come up with a payment of 100's of millions at a day's notice ( on a day the bank was closed) to give to the group to enhance it's group's finances, while not attached to any asset in particular, at a time when funnily enough their share price was dropping. Their top dogs at the time are saying what was going on, and in fact are saying that the state had a hand in it. Pair all that with the maple ten and you really do need to be struggling with sanity if you don't believe the loans were to support the shares.
And the fact that any case against Anglo is now a case against the state. Do you want to offer reasons as to why they are ploughing on with certain cases while ignoring others? The state have no interest in trying to find out if the loans were for share support because it costs them. As I said earlier why would you be worried about the rights of the state when the state obviously have no interest in protecting your rights.

Anarchy, perhaps but sometimes in a corrupt state with corrupt government it takes drastic measures to start the ball rolling. And before anyone is wondering I have no doubt that SQ is up to it in to his eye balls as well and if the cases for share support came up he would be as guilty as anyone in the bank and the state that were involved. But the fact that they are cherry picking which cases to run to me is unacceptable and as mentioned I support any action the Quinns took to take assets of Anglo.

Deiseach I don't believe SQ is doing anything for anyone but himself and his family. But then again I don't believe he ever proclaimed he was.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on June 28, 2012, 09:12:45 PM
Quinn must have been fed some serious shite to pump that kind of money into Anglo.

The farmer's son was sucked in and blew out by the big city boys.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thebigfella on June 29, 2012, 02:49:20 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?

Loan shark, you have to be either blind or dumb to believe that Anglo weren't supporting their own share price. I mean look at it logically. They lent a man with no assets 2.8 billion. They were able to come up with a payment of 100's of millions at a day's notice ( on a day the bank was closed) to give to the group to enhance it's group's finances, while not attached to any asset in particular, at a time when funnily enough their share price was dropping. Their top dogs at the time are saying what was going on, and in fact are saying that the state had a hand in it. Pair all that with the maple ten and you really do need to be struggling with sanity if you don't believe the loans were to support the shares.
And the fact that any case against Anglo is now a case against the state. Do you want to offer reasons as to why they are ploughing on with certain cases while ignoring others? The state have no interest in trying to find out if the loans were for share support because it costs them. As I said earlier why would you be worried about the rights of the state when the state obviously have no interest in protecting your rights.

Anarchy, perhaps but sometimes in a corrupt state with corrupt government it takes drastic measures to start the ball rolling. And before anyone is wondering I have no doubt that SQ is up to it in to his eye balls as well and if the cases for share support came up he would be as guilty as anyone in the bank and the state that were involved. But the fact that they are cherry picking which cases to run to me is unacceptable and as mentioned I support any action the Quinns took to take assets of Anglo.

Deiseach I don't believe SQ is doing anything for anyone but himself and his family. But then again I don't believe he ever proclaimed he was.

I've no doubt if SQ dropped the Kacks in front of you, you would suck he knob of him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 04:49:49 AM
You love your one line 'witty' remarks don't ya!! You're just a bundle of craic alright.  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on June 29, 2012, 10:39:34 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?

Loan shark, you have to be either blind or dumb to believe that Anglo weren't supporting their own share price. I mean look at it logically. They lent a man with no assets 2.8 billion. They were able to come up with a payment of 100's of millions at a day's notice ( on a day the bank was closed) to give to the group to enhance it's group's finances, while not attached to any asset in particular, at a time when funnily enough their share price was dropping. Their top dogs at the time are saying what was going on, and in fact are saying that the state had a hand in it. Pair all that with the maple ten and you really do need to be struggling with sanity if you don't believe the loans were to support the shares.
And the fact that any case against Anglo is now a case against the state. Do you want to offer reasons as to why they are ploughing on with certain cases while ignoring others? The state have no interest in trying to find out if the loans were for share support because it costs them. As I said earlier why would you be worried about the rights of the state when the state obviously have no interest in protecting your rights.

Anarchy, perhaps but sometimes in a corrupt state with corrupt government it takes drastic measures to start the ball rolling. And before anyone is wondering I have no doubt that SQ is up to it in to his eye balls as well and if the cases for share support came up he would be as guilty as anyone in the bank and the state that were involved. But the fact that they are cherry picking which cases to run to me is unacceptable and as mentioned I support any action the Quinns took to take assets of Anglo.

Deiseach I don't believe SQ is doing anything for anyone but himself and his family. But then again I don't believe he ever proclaimed he was.

Of course the loans were to support the shares. I've no problem with agreeing to that, nor do I have any problem agreeing with you that the state is cherry-picking which cases to pursue, while others are being left fallow for no obvious reason.

However SQ took these loans, and according to Justice Dunne, he then hid assets and showed contempt for the Irish courts in his testimony. He should be stripped bare, including all assets that he passed on.

That the Anglo boys are getting away with it is the scandal - that SQ is being brought to justice is the one good news story here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?

Loan shark, you have to be either blind or dumb to believe that Anglo weren't supporting their own share price. I mean look at it logically. They lent a man with no assets 2.8 billion. They were able to come up with a payment of 100's of millions at a day's notice ( on a day the bank was closed) to give to the group to enhance it's group's finances, while not attached to any asset in particular, at a time when funnily enough their share price was dropping. Their top dogs at the time are saying what was going on, and in fact are saying that the state had a hand in it. Pair all that with the maple ten and you really do need to be struggling with sanity if you don't believe the loans were to support the shares.
And the fact that any case against Anglo is now a case against the state. Do you want to offer reasons as to why they are ploughing on with certain cases while ignoring others? The state have no interest in trying to find out if the loans were for share support because it costs them. As I said earlier why would you be worried about the rights of the state when the state obviously have no interest in protecting your rights.

Anarchy, perhaps but sometimes in a corrupt state with corrupt government it takes drastic measures to start the ball rolling. And before anyone is wondering I have no doubt that SQ is up to it in to his eye balls as well and if the cases for share support came up he would be as guilty as anyone in the bank and the state that were involved. But the fact that they are cherry picking which cases to run to me is unacceptable and as mentioned I support any action the Quinns took to take assets of Anglo.

Deiseach I don't believe SQ is doing anything for anyone but himself and his family. But then again I don't believe he ever proclaimed he was.

Of course you do it's not you who'll have to pay these billions back. You're making SQ out to be some sort of shining light when in actual fact he gambled his empire and now is unwilling to pay up his debts, which means that while his kids and grand kids live it up ordinary people will have to pay for his debts, which makes him a thief, he is quiet literally stealing my money by moving theses assets out of the reach of Anglo.

Is there any of that you would disagree with?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 29, 2012, 12:47:15 PM
Lawyers for IBRC have asked the High Court to impose a raft of coercive orders against Sean Quinn to rectify his "blatant" contempt of court.

The bank's legal team has not expressly asked for the bankrupt businessman to be jailed, but has suggested the court may consider a punitive element to protect the administration of justice.

IBRC senior counsel Paul Gallagher has described the contempt as a "deliberate and blatant plan to subvert a court order".

The order in question was imposed last summer to restrain the Quinns from moving international property assets beyond the reach of the former Anglo Irish Bank.

Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne has found it was breached by Sean Quinn, his son Sean and nephew Peter Quinn.

Mr Gallagher for IBRC is now seeking a raft of orders to remedy the situation and has expressed fresh concern about share dealings and rental income from the Quinn's IPG assets, including the Kutuzoff tower in Russia.

Far-reaching disclosure orders are being requested and he has told the court it has the power to make additional policing orders.

Senior Counsel Bill Shipsey for the Quinns is arguing against the reliefs and has called them "most extraordinary and draconian".

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 01:13:33 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?

Loan shark, you have to be either blind or dumb to believe that Anglo weren't supporting their own share price. I mean look at it logically. They lent a man with no assets 2.8 billion. They were able to come up with a payment of 100's of millions at a day's notice ( on a day the bank was closed) to give to the group to enhance it's group's finances, while not attached to any asset in particular, at a time when funnily enough their share price was dropping. Their top dogs at the time are saying what was going on, and in fact are saying that the state had a hand in it. Pair all that with the maple ten and you really do need to be struggling with sanity if you don't believe the loans were to support the shares.
And the fact that any case against Anglo is now a case against the state. Do you want to offer reasons as to why they are ploughing on with certain cases while ignoring others? The state have no interest in trying to find out if the loans were for share support because it costs them. As I said earlier why would you be worried about the rights of the state when the state obviously have no interest in protecting your rights.

Anarchy, perhaps but sometimes in a corrupt state with corrupt government it takes drastic measures to start the ball rolling. And before anyone is wondering I have no doubt that SQ is up to it in to his eye balls as well and if the cases for share support came up he would be as guilty as anyone in the bank and the state that were involved. But the fact that they are cherry picking which cases to run to me is unacceptable and as mentioned I support any action the Quinns took to take assets of Anglo.

Deiseach I don't believe SQ is doing anything for anyone but himself and his family. But then again I don't believe he ever proclaimed he was.

Of course you do it's not you who'll have to pay these billions back. You're making SQ out to be some sort of shining light when in actual fact he gambled his empire and now is unwilling to pay up his debts, which means that while his kids and grand kids live it up ordinary people will have to pay for his debts, which makes him a thief, he is quiet literally stealing my money by moving theses assets out of the reach of Anglo.

Is there any of that you would disagree with?

I can guarantee you the whole Quinn debacle has costed me a hell of a lot more that any one of you's so that argument doesn't wash. You are only looking at one side of the story. You're crying for justice so that it doesn't cost you anything. But I don't hear you protesting for justice for the Quinns for any wrongs done to them. As I said earlier you reckon justice at all costs, unless it costs you directly. Then justice doesn't seem so important. And considering the state seem to hold the same opinion as you, I don't blame them for taking any action they took when they are getting no justice for themselves.

And it would be hard to listen to anything on rights and wrongs from someone who believes that any sort of financial crime is worse that rape.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on June 29, 2012, 01:29:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 01:13:33 PM
I can guarantee you the whole Quinn debacle has costed me a hell of a lot more that any one of you's so that argument doesn't wash. You are only looking at one side of the story. You're crying for justice so that it doesn't cost you anything. But I don't hear you protesting for justice for the Quinns for any wrongs done to them. As I said earlier you reckon justice at all costs, unless it costs you directly. Then justice doesn't seem so important. And considering the state seem to hold the same opinion as you, I don't blame them for taking any action they took when they are getting no justice for themselves.

And it would be hard to listen to anything on rights and wrongs from someone who believes that any sort of financial crime is worse that rape.

But I've yet to hear any evidence of such wrongdoings? All I've heard is talk of how Anglo were doing this to illegally support their own share price. That's as maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that SQ was doing it so he could make money, not for any greater good.

Was SQ in over his head? Maybe. It seems that way. But he still signed the contract, and any time I sign a contract, I'm doing so fully aware that the counterparty is doing it for a reason too. You can be damn sure that if I didn't know what their reason was, I wouldn't be signing it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 01:50:08 PM
Loan shark you say you are under no illusion that there was share support. I've quoted examples of why that is so above. So I think we are in agreement that this happened. Therefore any loans used for the used of share support are illegal and unenforceable. However these loans are being enforced because the state are not looking at the evidence in front of them that there was share support by one of the largest financial institutions in Ireland. And that there may even be a case that it went farther up the food chain than just the bank.
Sean Quinn will be involved in this as well and no doubt be up to his eyes in it. But that doesn't mean that you can ignore the evidence in front of you just because Anglo has been institutionalised and it might cost the tax payer. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on June 29, 2012, 02:07:52 PM
supersarsfields, as a resident of Co Fermanagh I'm aware of the positive impact SQ has had on the wider area.  But I don't you get to ths position he was in by being an out and out altruist.  SQ created jobs for people so that they could make money for him, no criticism, that's the way capitlaism works and I'm OK with that.

However on the particular issue of the contempt of court proceedings I cannot see any defence for the Quinn family.  They are, to use the vernacular, "bang to rights" on this charge and will have to take their punishment.  Also they admit to owing IRBC €445mill (or thereabouts), which they are not in a position to repay, and the assets that were moved out of reach are reckoned to be worth €500mill...which they were going to use to repay the €445mill??...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on June 29, 2012, 02:13:07 PM
Looks like they've been given a chance to avoid a spell in clink:

Irish Times

Bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn, his son Sean and nephew Peter Darragh Quinn have been ordered to take specified steps aimed at unwinding measures taken to put multi-million euro assets in the Quinn international property group beyond the reach of the former Anglo Irish Bank.

Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne also today made clear to the three they could face punitive sanctions if they do not obey the orders, which include orders requiring them to disclose all their assets.

The three were involved in a conspiracy or plan to put assets beyond the bank's reach and that was impermissible, she said.

She would "not sit idly by and allow that take place and allow court orders be breached".

The judge said she would not disagree with a description of the contempt of court orders in this case as "flagrant" and she was disappointed there was no acknowledgement by the three, even at this stage, of the "great wrongdoing" involved.

Earlier, lawyers for the bank had said that while it was primarily seeking a large number of coercive orders against the three aimed at unwinding asset stripping measures, the court should also consider punitive orders given the "flagrant" contempt and the response of the three to the court's finding.

Paul Gallagher SC, for the bank, said the three had offered no apology to the court, were not offering to resign from companies and were offering no clear proposals to reverse asset-stripping measures.

There had been a "gross affront" to the court established in evidence but the three were effectively asking the court to ignore that, he said.

The bank had still no information about what was happening to some $35 million rental income from properties in the IPG, he added.

Bill Shipsey SC, for the three men, said the orders being sought by the bank were draconian and extraordinary, well beyond the court's findings of contempt and it had no jurisdiction to make them. He said committal to prison was a last resort and the only orders made should be ones that have the three an opportunity to purge their contempt in relation to the specific findings against them.

His clients would have difficulties unwinding certain transactions as other companies and individuals outside this jurisdiction were involved.

He said his clients accepted appropriate coercive orders could be made to reverse the transactions involved in the contempt findings but the nature of those orders was for the court to decide. The bank was not entitled to the wide ranging orders sought, he said.

Counsel also indicated the Quinns were considering an appeal against the contempt findings.

The judge made orders directing the three to disclose all their assets in Ireland and worldwide, whether held directly or indirectly. They must also disclose the work done by lawyers and any other agents of theirs in relation to the worldwide assets.

The judge also granted the bank's application to appoint a receiver over assets of the three and a range of orders to assist the bank in identifying, protecting and controlling the IPG assets and ensuring the bank secures the rental and any other income from them.

All three men sat impassively in the packed courtroom as the judge gave her ruling. Supporters of the Quinns and some of their relatives were also in court

The judge made the rulings following her findings earlier this week the three engaged in a "complex, complicated and no doubt costly" series of steps designed to put assets beyond the reach of the bank in "a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner".

All three told untruths to the court and their behaviour was "as far removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be", she said.

The issue of what penalty to impose was adjourned to allow the sides consider her ruling and make submissions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 01:13:33 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?

Loan shark, you have to be either blind or dumb to believe that Anglo weren't supporting their own share price. I mean look at it logically. They lent a man with no assets 2.8 billion. They were able to come up with a payment of 100's of millions at a day's notice ( on a day the bank was closed) to give to the group to enhance it's group's finances, while not attached to any asset in particular, at a time when funnily enough their share price was dropping. Their top dogs at the time are saying what was going on, and in fact are saying that the state had a hand in it. Pair all that with the maple ten and you really do need to be struggling with sanity if you don't believe the loans were to support the shares.
And the fact that any case against Anglo is now a case against the state. Do you want to offer reasons as to why they are ploughing on with certain cases while ignoring others? The state have no interest in trying to find out if the loans were for share support because it costs them. As I said earlier why would you be worried about the rights of the state when the state obviously have no interest in protecting your rights.

Anarchy, perhaps but sometimes in a corrupt state with corrupt government it takes drastic measures to start the ball rolling. And before anyone is wondering I have no doubt that SQ is up to it in to his eye balls as well and if the cases for share support came up he would be as guilty as anyone in the bank and the state that were involved. But the fact that they are cherry picking which cases to run to me is unacceptable and as mentioned I support any action the Quinns took to take assets of Anglo.

Deiseach I don't believe SQ is doing anything for anyone but himself and his family. But then again I don't believe he ever proclaimed he was.

Of course you do it's not you who'll have to pay these billions back. You're making SQ out to be some sort of shining light when in actual fact he gambled his empire and now is unwilling to pay up his debts, which means that while his kids and grand kids live it up ordinary people will have to pay for his debts, which makes him a thief, he is quiet literally stealing my money by moving theses assets out of the reach of Anglo.

Is there any of that you would disagree with?

I can guarantee you the whole Quinn debacle has costed me a hell of a lot more that any one of you's so that argument doesn't wash. You are only looking at one side of the story. You're crying for justice so that it doesn't cost you anything. But I don't hear you protesting for justice for the Quinns for any wrongs done to them. As I said earlier you reckon justice at all costs, unless it costs you directly. Then justice doesn't seem so important. And considering the state seem to hold the same opinion as you, I don't blame them for taking any action they took when they are getting no justice for themselves.

And it would be hard to listen to anything on rights and wrongs from someone who believes that any sort of financial crime is worse that rape.

Who said I believe a financial crime is worse than rape? Certainly not me, I made a blatantly tongue in cheek remark about SQ having no honour, so you can untwist your knickers on that one.

Your claim that this has cost you more than any of us is just soft chat, what has it cost you? It's quiet clearly in the public domain what it's costing me as a tax payer in the Republic.
I'm angry that a man who has the means to pay back some of his huge debts is instead putting them out of reach of those he owes it to.
Do I think those in anglo responsible for this should Be brought to justice? Absolutely but that shouldn't affect the rights or wrongs of SQs case
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 02:21:42 PM
Quote from: AQMP on June 29, 2012, 02:07:52 PM
supersarsfields, as a resident of Co Fermanagh I'm aware of the positive impact SQ has had on the wider area.  But I don't you get to ths position he was in by being an out and out altruist.  SQ created jobs for people so that they could make money for him, no criticism, that's the way capitlaism works and I'm OK with that.

However on the particular issue of the contempt of court proceedings I cannot see any defence for the Quinn family.  They are, to use the vernacular, "bang to rights" on this charge and will have to take their punishment.  Also they admit to owing IRBC €445mill (or thereabouts), which they are not in a position to repay, and the assets that were moved out of reach are reckoned to be worth €500mill...which they were going to use to repay the €445mill??...

AQMP this is typical of some of the stuff you see in the paper when some journalists are twisting things to their slant. Yes there are 445 Million Euro legal loans. But you seem to forget that they have also taken over the whole Quinn group. The glass factories alone are worth more than 445 Million. And that's before you take into account the other factories. So the foreign properties aren't needed to cover these loans.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 02:27:56 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 01:13:33 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?

Loan shark, you have to be either blind or dumb to believe that Anglo weren't supporting their own share price. I mean look at it logically. They lent a man with no assets 2.8 billion. They were able to come up with a payment of 100's of millions at a day's notice ( on a day the bank was closed) to give to the group to enhance it's group's finances, while not attached to any asset in particular, at a time when funnily enough their share price was dropping. Their top dogs at the time are saying what was going on, and in fact are saying that the state had a hand in it. Pair all that with the maple ten and you really do need to be struggling with sanity if you don't believe the loans were to support the shares.
And the fact that any case against Anglo is now a case against the state. Do you want to offer reasons as to why they are ploughing on with certain cases while ignoring others? The state have no interest in trying to find out if the loans were for share support because it costs them. As I said earlier why would you be worried about the rights of the state when the state obviously have no interest in protecting your rights.

Anarchy, perhaps but sometimes in a corrupt state with corrupt government it takes drastic measures to start the ball rolling. And before anyone is wondering I have no doubt that SQ is up to it in to his eye balls as well and if the cases for share support came up he would be as guilty as anyone in the bank and the state that were involved. But the fact that they are cherry picking which cases to run to me is unacceptable and as mentioned I support any action the Quinns took to take assets of Anglo.

Deiseach I don't believe SQ is doing anything for anyone but himself and his family. But then again I don't believe he ever proclaimed he was.

Of course you do it's not you who'll have to pay these billions back. You're making SQ out to be some sort of shining light when in actual fact he gambled his empire and now is unwilling to pay up his debts, which means that while his kids and grand kids live it up ordinary people will have to pay for his debts, which makes him a thief, he is quiet literally stealing my money by moving theses assets out of the reach of Anglo.

Is there any of that you would disagree with?

I can guarantee you the whole Quinn debacle has costed me a hell of a lot more that any one of you's so that argument doesn't wash. You are only looking at one side of the story. You're crying for justice so that it doesn't cost you anything. But I don't hear you protesting for justice for the Quinns for any wrongs done to them. As I said earlier you reckon justice at all costs, unless it costs you directly. Then justice doesn't seem so important. And considering the state seem to hold the same opinion as you, I don't blame them for taking any action they took when they are getting no justice for themselves.

And it would be hard to listen to anything on rights and wrongs from someone who believes that any sort of financial crime is worse that rape.

Who said I believe a financial crime is worse than rape? Certainly not me, I made a blatantly tongue in cheek remark about SQ having no honour, so you can untwist your knickers on that one.

Your claim that this has cost you more than any of us is just soft chat, what has it cost you? It's quiet clearly in the public domain what it's costing me as a tax payer in the Republic.
I'm angry that a man who has the means to pay back some of his huge debts is instead putting them out of reach of those he owes it to.
Do I think those in anglo responsible for this should Be brought to justice? Absolutely but that shouldn't affect the rights or wrongs of SQs case

Soft Chat? I'm made no secret of the fact that I worked for the Quinn Group but have since lost my job since Anglo have come in making a pig's ear of verything. So I'd hazard a guess that I'm affected more than anyone else on here in that regard.
Your angry that SQ won't pay his depts. Grand. I'm angry that Anglo were using illegal loans to take assets that I believe  they have no right to. I'm also angry that the government have no interest in finding out what Anglo got up to because they know it could cost them 2.8 Billion. Better just to let that one lie eh?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 29, 2012, 02:29:33 PM
In a packed Court 16 of the Four Courts in Dublin, the Quinns sat among rows of lawyers as the IBRC sought more than 30 orders against them following the contempt ruling.

Only five were upheld by the judge but she then warned she would not "sit idly by" if assets were stripped a second time.

The Quinns were told to disclose, by affidavit, all assets worldwide in which the three hold an interest either jointly or solely.

The court ordered that a receiver be appointed over all assets worldwide, pending a full trial, and that the three men must resign from the board of or any managerial role in any company or body within the Quinns' International Property Group.

Also, they were told to take all necessary steps to restore the shareholdings of several companies, including Finansstroy, Red Sector and Logistica, which were linked to the asset stripping.

Finally, the Quinns were ordered to instruct any person acting on their direction or behalf to take steps to stop attempts in the Russian Federation to have the valuable Finansstroy company made bankrupt.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on June 29, 2012, 02:35:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 02:27:56 PM
Soft Chat? I'm made no secret of the fact that I worked for the Quinn Group but have since lost my job since Anglo have come in making a pig's ear of verything. So I'd hazard a guess that I'm affected more than anyone else on here in that regard.
Your angry that SQ won't pay his depts. Grand. I'm angry that Anglo were using illegal loans to take assets that I believe  they have no right to. I'm also angry that the government have no interest in finding out what Anglo got up to because they know it could cost them 2.8 Billion. Better just to let that one lie eh?

It'd be best for all concerned if we let it lie. I'm going to do that now
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on June 29, 2012, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 01:50:08 PM
Loan shark you say you are under no illusion that there was share support. I've quoted examples of why that is so above. So I think we are in agreement that this happened. Therefore any loans used for the used of share support are illegal and unenforceable. However these loans are being enforced because the state are not looking at the evidence in front of them that there was share support by one of the largest financial institutions in Ireland. And that there may even be a case that it went farther up the food chain than just the bank.
Sean Quinn will be involved in this as well and no doubt be up to his eyes in it. But that doesn't mean that you can ignore the evidence in front of you just because Anglo has been institutionalised and it might cost the tax payer.

How does that follow? The loans may have been for an illegal purpose, but first of all SQ would have to admit to knowingly being part of that illegal process, which he hasn't done. After all, if he took the loans out in good faith to make a legitimate investment, then he should be paying them back. Secondly I'm unaware of any legally savvy person who has written anything saying that this should void the loans, even if it were the case? Thirdly, Surely if the loans should be voided, then SQ should be providing a clear paper trail of where the money has gone, and substantiating that the full funds went into share support, and fourthly, I don't feel any sympathy for him because on an actuarial basis, Quinn Insurance was being run as a great big ponzi scheme and now we all have to pay the price for that. Even if SQ was relieved of the responsibility for paying back the Anglo share loan, he should be forced to make good the hole in the QI accounts, and not by "trading out if it" as he himself suggests. So asset retrieval to fill that gap is justified.

I'll accept that the fourth point is more based on natural justice than any acute point of law, but if a man gets away with one thing on a subtle point of law, I'll struggle to feel sympathetic to him if he gets snookered by a different one.

I sympathise with you and everyone who has lost their jobs in that area - it's a pain I felt a few years ago and I'm still struggling to get back to an even keel - but that's not a case for letting one large extended family live the high life, while everybody out there with a health insurance policy, car insurance policy or home policy subsidises them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 29, 2012, 02:46:08 PM
If and when Anglo or whatever it is called now do manage to get control of the property all over the world, where does the money go to and will the tax payer be much better off as a consequence after the lawyers are finished with it and will the taxpatyer get much or any relief from the austerity they currently face ?


Look at the reports from today's hearing - In a packed Court 16 of the Four Courts in Dublin, the Quinns sat among rows of lawyers as the IBRC sought more than 30 orders against them following the contempt ruling.


Still no word of the Quinn case v Anglo being heard anytime soon ?.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 03:02:57 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 29, 2012, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 01:50:08 PM
Loan shark you say you are under no illusion that there was share support. I've quoted examples of why that is so above. So I think we are in agreement that this happened. Therefore any loans used for the used of share support are illegal and unenforceable. However these loans are being enforced because the state are not looking at the evidence in front of them that there was share support by one of the largest financial institutions in Ireland. And that there may even be a case that it went farther up the food chain than just the bank.
Sean Quinn will be involved in this as well and no doubt be up to his eyes in it. But that doesn't mean that you can ignore the evidence in front of you just because Anglo has been institutionalised and it might cost the tax payer.

How does that follow? The loans may have been for an illegal purpose, but first of all SQ would have to admit to knowingly being part of that illegal process, which he hasn't done. After all, if he took the loans out in good faith to make a legitimate investment, then he should be paying them back. Secondly I'm unaware of any legally savvy person who has written anything saying that this should void the loans, even if it were the case? Thirdly, Surely if the loans should be voided, then SQ should be providing a clear paper trail of where the money has gone, and substantiating that the full funds went into share support, and fourthly, I don't feel any sympathy for him because on an actuarial basis, Quinn Insurance was being run as a great big ponzi scheme and now we all have to pay the price for that. Even if SQ was relieved of the responsibility for paying back the Anglo share loan, he should be forced to make good the hole in the QI accounts, and not by "trading out if it" as he himself suggests. So asset retrieval to fill that gap is justified.

I'll accept that the fourth point is more based on natural justice than any acute point of law, but if a man gets away with one thing on a subtle point of law, I'll struggle to feel sympathetic to him if he gets snookered by a different one.

I sympathise with you and everyone who has lost their jobs in that area - it's a pain I felt a few years ago and I'm still struggling to get back to an even keel - but that's not a case for letting one large extended family live the high life, while everybody out there with a health insurance policy, car insurance policy or home policy subsidises them.

Well The Quinns solicitors that are running the case for the quinns have claimed that. Also Justice Kelly agreed when he gave the Quinns the full legal standing to run the cases against Anglo. So I would count both those legal savvy.
SQ might indeed get into crap over the share support. I don't believe anything other than that. But at least the full picture will have been looked at. And if it's deemed that the loans are unenforcable then the assets and the group would be returned to the Quinn children and they can try are rectify the complete mess that Anglo and Paul O brien are making of the company at the minute. If they lose the cases then so be it. Course I would rather the cases were run in a European court than a Irish one.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: cicfada on June 29, 2012, 03:27:29 PM
one law for the rich and one for the poor!  How the heck  do other people feel now that they were jailed and Sean Quinn gets away with it!!  Of course you'll get the defenders out in force......."he has done wonders for Cavan/Fermanagh". Same way as people in Wexford would defend Mick Wallace,  people in Tipp defend Lowry, etc etc! God this country really stinks sometimes!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 03:50:42 PM
So what did SQ get away with that others were jailed for?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 29, 2012, 03:55:51 PM
We could draw up a list of those who blatantly and flagrantly were corrupt and committed acts of fraud but who will never have to face up to their actions in any court.


But we'd best not do that ( unless we want banned ).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 29, 2012, 03:58:58 PM
Quinn's counsel today advised the court that his clients would have difficulties unwinding certain transactions as other companies and individuals outside this jurisdiction were involved.


I think we all know where this is going.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 04:14:29 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 02:27:56 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 01:13:33 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?

Loan shark, you have to be either blind or dumb to believe that Anglo weren't supporting their own share price. I mean look at it logically. They lent a man with no assets 2.8 billion. They were able to come up with a payment of 100's of millions at a day's notice ( on a day the bank was closed) to give to the group to enhance it's group's finances, while not attached to any asset in particular, at a time when funnily enough their share price was dropping. Their top dogs at the time are saying what was going on, and in fact are saying that the state had a hand in it. Pair all that with the maple ten and you really do need to be struggling with sanity if you don't believe the loans were to support the shares.
And the fact that any case against Anglo is now a case against the state. Do you want to offer reasons as to why they are ploughing on with certain cases while ignoring others? The state have no interest in trying to find out if the loans were for share support because it costs them. As I said earlier why would you be worried about the rights of the state when the state obviously have no interest in protecting your rights.

Anarchy, perhaps but sometimes in a corrupt state with corrupt government it takes drastic measures to start the ball rolling. And before anyone is wondering I have no doubt that SQ is up to it in to his eye balls as well and if the cases for share support came up he would be as guilty as anyone in the bank and the state that were involved. But the fact that they are cherry picking which cases to run to me is unacceptable and as mentioned I support any action the Quinns took to take assets of Anglo.

Deiseach I don't believe SQ is doing anything for anyone but himself and his family. But then again I don't believe he ever proclaimed he was.

Of course you do it's not you who'll have to pay these billions back. You're making SQ out to be some sort of shining light when in actual fact he gambled his empire and now is unwilling to pay up his debts, which means that while his kids and grand kids live it up ordinary people will have to pay for his debts, which makes him a thief, he is quiet literally stealing my money by moving theses assets out of the reach of Anglo.

Is there any of that you would disagree with?

I can guarantee you the whole Quinn debacle has costed me a hell of a lot more that any one of you's so that argument doesn't wash. You are only looking at one side of the story. You're crying for justice so that it doesn't cost you anything. But I don't hear you protesting for justice for the Quinns for any wrongs done to them. As I said earlier you reckon justice at all costs, unless it costs you directly. Then justice doesn't seem so important. And considering the state seem to hold the same opinion as you, I don't blame them for taking any action they took when they are getting no justice for themselves.

And it would be hard to listen to anything on rights and wrongs from someone who believes that any sort of financial crime is worse that rape.

Who said I believe a financial crime is worse than rape? Certainly not me, I made a blatantly tongue in cheek remark about SQ having no honour, so you can untwist your knickers on that one.

Your claim that this has cost you more than any of us is just soft chat, what has it cost you? It's quiet clearly in the public domain what it's costing me as a tax payer in the Republic.
I'm angry that a man who has the means to pay back some of his huge debts is instead putting them out of reach of those he owes it to.
Do I think those in anglo responsible for this should Be brought to justice? Absolutely but that shouldn't affect the rights or wrongs of SQs case

Soft Chat? I'm made no secret of the fact that I worked for the Quinn Group but have since lost my job since Anglo have come in making a pig's ear of verything. So I'd hazard a guess that I'm affected more than anyone else on here in that regard.
Your angry that SQ won't pay his depts. Grand. I'm angry that Anglo were using illegal loans to take assets that I believe  they have no right to. I'm also angry that the government have no interest in finding out what Anglo got up to because they know it could cost them 2.8 Billion. Better just to let that one lie eh?

You'd swear you were the only person ever to get laid off, it's happened to lots on here, including myself. You above all others should be annoyed at SQ, he gambled his business with Anglo and lost, thats why your out of a job, not because of Anglo or the government, nobody put a gun to his head.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 29, 2012, 04:35:28 PM
3 weeks to sort things out or else. I read that the punishment for contempt is a month inside. Not too bad considering the high stakes.

The bankrupt former billionaire, Sean Quinn, has been given three weeks to co-operate with the state-owned bank that is seeking control of his assets.

Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne has made a number of orders aimed at forcing Sean Quinn, his son Sean and nephew Peter Darragh Quinn to reverse the movement of assets out of the reach of the bank.

The High Court in Dublin will reassess the Quinns' level of co-operation with the former Anglo-Irish bank, now the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC) on 20 July.
The three men were found guilty on Tuesday of contempt of court for putting assets beyond IBRC's reach, an offence for which they could potentially face jail.

The judge said on Friday she would only consider punitive measures after seeing the extent of the co-operation from the Quinns in relation to the orders.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thebigfella on June 29, 2012, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 04:14:29 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 02:27:56 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 01:13:33 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?

Loan shark, you have to be either blind or dumb to believe that Anglo weren't supporting their own share price. I mean look at it logically. They lent a man with no assets 2.8 billion. They were able to come up with a payment of 100's of millions at a day's notice ( on a day the bank was closed) to give to the group to enhance it's group's finances, while not attached to any asset in particular, at a time when funnily enough their share price was dropping. Their top dogs at the time are saying what was going on, and in fact are saying that the state had a hand in it. Pair all that with the maple ten and you really do need to be struggling with sanity if you don't believe the loans were to support the shares.
And the fact that any case against Anglo is now a case against the state. Do you want to offer reasons as to why they are ploughing on with certain cases while ignoring others? The state have no interest in trying to find out if the loans were for share support because it costs them. As I said earlier why would you be worried about the rights of the state when the state obviously have no interest in protecting your rights.

Anarchy, perhaps but sometimes in a corrupt state with corrupt government it takes drastic measures to start the ball rolling. And before anyone is wondering I have no doubt that SQ is up to it in to his eye balls as well and if the cases for share support came up he would be as guilty as anyone in the bank and the state that were involved. But the fact that they are cherry picking which cases to run to me is unacceptable and as mentioned I support any action the Quinns took to take assets of Anglo.

Deiseach I don't believe SQ is doing anything for anyone but himself and his family. But then again I don't believe he ever proclaimed he was.

Of course you do it's not you who'll have to pay these billions back. You're making SQ out to be some sort of shining light when in actual fact he gambled his empire and now is unwilling to pay up his debts, which means that while his kids and grand kids live it up ordinary people will have to pay for his debts, which makes him a thief, he is quiet literally stealing my money by moving theses assets out of the reach of Anglo.

Is there any of that you would disagree with?

I can guarantee you the whole Quinn debacle has costed me a hell of a lot more that any one of you's so that argument doesn't wash. You are only looking at one side of the story. You're crying for justice so that it doesn't cost you anything. But I don't hear you protesting for justice for the Quinns for any wrongs done to them. As I said earlier you reckon justice at all costs, unless it costs you directly. Then justice doesn't seem so important. And considering the state seem to hold the same opinion as you, I don't blame them for taking any action they took when they are getting no justice for themselves.

And it would be hard to listen to anything on rights and wrongs from someone who believes that any sort of financial crime is worse that rape.

Who said I believe a financial crime is worse than rape? Certainly not me, I made a blatantly tongue in cheek remark about SQ having no honour, so you can untwist your knickers on that one.

Your claim that this has cost you more than any of us is just soft chat, what has it cost you? It's quiet clearly in the public domain what it's costing me as a tax payer in the Republic.
I'm angry that a man who has the means to pay back some of his huge debts is instead putting them out of reach of those he owes it to.
Do I think those in anglo responsible for this should Be brought to justice? Absolutely but that shouldn't affect the rights or wrongs of SQs case

Soft Chat? I'm made no secret of the fact that I worked for the Quinn Group but have since lost my job since Anglo have come in making a pig's ear of verything. So I'd hazard a guess that I'm affected more than anyone else on here in that regard.
Your angry that SQ won't pay his depts. Grand. I'm angry that Anglo were using illegal loans to take assets that I believe  they have no right to. I'm also angry that the government have no interest in finding out what Anglo got up to because they know it could cost them 2.8 Billion. Better just to let that one lie eh?

You'd swear you were the only person ever to get laid off, it's happened to lots on here, including myself. You above all others should be annoyed at SQ, he gambled his business with Anglo and lost, thats why your out of a job, not because of Anglo or the government, nobody put a gun to his head.

Can you even claim to have been laid off if you were self employed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on June 29, 2012, 04:40:28 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 04:14:29 PM

You above all others should be annoyed at SQ,

Thats his point you clown
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 04:55:15 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 04:14:29 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 02:27:56 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 29, 2012, 01:13:33 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on June 29, 2012, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 07:46:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on June 28, 2012, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2012, 03:15:40 PM
That's a simplistic way of looking at things. What if wrongs were committed and ignored by the powers that be. How long do you continue down that path before you realise there's no interest in correcting the wrongs committed against you. How long would you continue to do nothing? Or would you take action. I know which I would do.

SQ may perceive that wrongs were done against him, but that's why we have laws and courts. It's up to him to prove that he was wronged, in a court of the land. He may feel that the system may have failed him, and I'm guessing you agree, but we can't have a system whereby people act according to their own sense of right and wrong, ignoring the law. You're essentially proposing anarchy. The correct remedy for SQ is to act within the law, not to break the law in retaliation.

What next - a man burgles my house, and I know who it is, but for one reason or another, he does not get convicted - so I enforce my own brand of vigilante justice, chopping off his arms so he can't do it again?

Loan shark, you have to be either blind or dumb to believe that Anglo weren't supporting their own share price. I mean look at it logically. They lent a man with no assets 2.8 billion. They were able to come up with a payment of 100's of millions at a day's notice ( on a day the bank was closed) to give to the group to enhance it's group's finances, while not attached to any asset in particular, at a time when funnily enough their share price was dropping. Their top dogs at the time are saying what was going on, and in fact are saying that the state had a hand in it. Pair all that with the maple ten and you really do need to be struggling with sanity if you don't believe the loans were to support the shares.
And the fact that any case against Anglo is now a case against the state. Do you want to offer reasons as to why they are ploughing on with certain cases while ignoring others? The state have no interest in trying to find out if the loans were for share support because it costs them. As I said earlier why would you be worried about the rights of the state when the state obviously have no interest in protecting your rights.

Anarchy, perhaps but sometimes in a corrupt state with corrupt government it takes drastic measures to start the ball rolling. And before anyone is wondering I have no doubt that SQ is up to it in to his eye balls as well and if the cases for share support came up he would be as guilty as anyone in the bank and the state that were involved. But the fact that they are cherry picking which cases to run to me is unacceptable and as mentioned I support any action the Quinns took to take assets of Anglo.

Deiseach I don't believe SQ is doing anything for anyone but himself and his family. But then again I don't believe he ever proclaimed he was.

Of course you do it's not you who'll have to pay these billions back. You're making SQ out to be some sort of shining light when in actual fact he gambled his empire and now is unwilling to pay up his debts, which means that while his kids and grand kids live it up ordinary people will have to pay for his debts, which makes him a thief, he is quiet literally stealing my money by moving theses assets out of the reach of Anglo.

Is there any of that you would disagree with?

I can guarantee you the whole Quinn debacle has costed me a hell of a lot more that any one of you's so that argument doesn't wash. You are only looking at one side of the story. You're crying for justice so that it doesn't cost you anything. But I don't hear you protesting for justice for the Quinns for any wrongs done to them. As I said earlier you reckon justice at all costs, unless it costs you directly. Then justice doesn't seem so important. And considering the state seem to hold the same opinion as you, I don't blame them for taking any action they took when they are getting no justice for themselves.

And it would be hard to listen to anything on rights and wrongs from someone who believes that any sort of financial crime is worse that rape.

Who said I believe a financial crime is worse than rape? Certainly not me, I made a blatantly tongue in cheek remark about SQ having no honour, so you can untwist your knickers on that one.

Your claim that this has cost you more than any of us is just soft chat, what has it cost you? It's quiet clearly in the public domain what it's costing me as a tax payer in the Republic.
I'm angry that a man who has the means to pay back some of his huge debts is instead putting them out of reach of those he owes it to.
Do I think those in anglo responsible for this should Be brought to justice? Absolutely but that shouldn't affect the rights or wrongs of SQs case

Soft Chat? I'm made no secret of the fact that I worked for the Quinn Group but have since lost my job since Anglo have come in making a pig's ear of verything. So I'd hazard a guess that I'm affected more than anyone else on here in that regard.
Your angry that SQ won't pay his depts. Grand. I'm angry that Anglo were using illegal loans to take assets that I believe  they have no right to. I'm also angry that the government have no interest in finding out what Anglo got up to because they know it could cost them 2.8 Billion. Better just to let that one lie eh?

You'd swear you were the only person ever to get laid off, it's happened to lots on here, including myself. You above all others should be annoyed at SQ, he gambled his business with Anglo and lost, thats why your out of a job, not because of Anglo or the government, nobody put a gun to his head.

Yeah I was making out I was the only person ever to be laid of!!  ::) I was lucky enough to get another job quick enough so I was hardly looking pity.
He took a gamble with Anglo and lost alright (I'm not even going to bother going into the falsified accounts by Anglo by some 7 Billion making them look a better investment than they were). But he would have been fit to walk away from it with the Group still intact. But then the loans come into play. Whether it was Quinn going to Anglo or Anglo putting pressure on Quinns is being debated, but either way they shouldn't have been santioned.
But instead of looking at that whole process the state is happy to progress with the bits that suit them.
So am I annoyed at SQ. Yes, but I temper that with the fact that without SQ I would never have had that opportunity and nor would many others who gained employment with him. You can dismiss that if you like but that's my opinion.  Anglo on the other hand doesn't have any redeeming features. And yet the state are reluctant to investigate they're involvment in the whole process.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on June 30, 2012, 11:09:47 AM
With all due respect, Anglo employed people too - so if SQ deserves credit for employing people, so do they, it's not fair just to say they've "no redeeming features". That said, I think that whole side of it is a red herring to be honest.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 30, 2012, 12:13:23 PM
You're entitled to that opinion loan shark. I obviously disagree and I can't see either of us moving on those opinions so we'd be as well to leave it at that. Plus Tyrone's playing and I've a wedding today so I'll be on the run all day. We can take it up again on Monday!!  :P 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on July 02, 2012, 02:40:06 PM
Pretty damming video evidence from Sunday's papers :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167105/FBI-translation-experts--verified-Kiev-footage.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 02, 2012, 04:36:10 PM
Quote from: mick999 on July 02, 2012, 02:40:06 PM
Pretty damming video evidence from Sunday's papers :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167105/FBI-translation-experts--verified-Kiev-footage.html

Was this used during the recent court proceedings at all and if not why not ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 02, 2012, 05:02:43 PM
Don't think it's submittable in court as it was taken without their consent. But I'd be surprised if everyone involved in the case didn't know about it as the case was being heard as both Anglo and the quinns knew of it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 02, 2012, 05:06:14 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 02, 2012, 05:02:43 PM
Don't think it's submittable in court as it was taken without their consent. But I'd be surprised if everyone involved in the case didn't know about it as the case was being heard as both Anglo and the quinns knew of it.


Worthless then and not evidential.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 02, 2012, 05:12:20 PM
I think that's the case OM but not 100% sure, someone with more legal experience can prob advise better.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on July 02, 2012, 05:32:17 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 02, 2012, 05:12:20 PM
I think that's the case OM but not 100% sure, someone with more legal experience can prob advise better.

Hang on now - you're happy to say that IBRC are not playing fair when it comes to retrieving these assets, yet you write this off as "inadmissable"? Maybe in a legal sense, but this discussion thread is not a court of law, it's a collection of GAA people discussing a topic of national interest.

How do you still support SQ in the light of this? He would happily give control of "his" fortune over to shady Ukrainian characters rather than pay back a loan that he willingly took out, albeit possibly on the strength of bad information?

How can you honestly think that he or his family deserve any more than the basic cost of living afforded to social welfare recipients in the country at best, or possibly jail?


Also, how is my stating that Anglo also employed people an opinion? They clearly did, just as much as the Quinn Group did. It shouldn't give Seanie Fitz a free pass any more than it should give one to SQ.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 02, 2012, 09:33:20 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 02, 2012, 05:32:17 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 02, 2012, 05:12:20 PM
I think that's the case OM but not 100% sure, someone with more legal experience can prob advise better.

Hang on now - you're happy to say that IBRC are not playing fair when it comes to retrieving these assets, yet you write this off as "inadmissable"? Maybe in a legal sense, but this discussion thread is not a court of law, it's a collection of GAA people discussing a topic of national interest.

How do you still support SQ in the light of this? He would happily give control of "his" fortune over to shady Ukrainian characters rather than pay back a loan that he willingly took out, albeit possibly on the strength of bad information?

How can you honestly think that he or his family deserve any more than the basic cost of living afforded to social welfare recipients in the country at best, or possibly jail?


Also, how is my stating that Anglo also employed people an opinion? They clearly did, just as much as the Quinn Group did. It shouldn't give Seanie Fitz a free pass any more than it should give one to SQ.

Hang on yourself and read what I wrote. I write it of as inadmissable because I believe that it is as it was a secret recording. I don't recall telling anyone that they can't discuss it or make a comment on it so wind your neck in on that. In fact I would expect there to be discussion on it so I don't know why you think I was implying there shouldn't be.
As for still supporting Quinn after this? I do. As I said earlier in this thread I wish the Quinns well in anything they can do that keeps assets out of Anglo's hands. My views haven't changed regarding that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 02, 2012, 11:03:00 PM
QuoteAs I said earlier in this thread I wish the Quinns well in anything they can do that keeps assets out of Anglo's hands.

Well I hope it isn't one of your family that is waiting for the ambulance that isn't there because of your mate's refusing to pay back his loans and getting the State to do it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 02, 2012, 11:12:11 PM
Feel free to loop back to the start of the thread as to why I have that opinion. I don't intend to run through it again.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 02, 2012, 11:26:59 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 02, 2012, 11:03:00 PM
QuoteAs I said earlier in this thread I wish the Quinns well in anything they can do that keeps assets out of Anglo's hands.

Well I hope it isn't one of your family that is waiting for the ambulance that isn't there because of your mate's refusing to pay back his loans and getting the State to do it.

Quinn and the business he created put alot of ambulances on the road and provided the money for which many people of the Northwest used to buy health insurance and pay for the healthcare that looked after them. If you are going to credit Quinn with the current austerity forced upon the nation then you must also credit him for the boom times that preceded it.

You can't have your cake and eat it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on July 03, 2012, 08:06:43 AM
Quinn built his sense of victimhood on impunity

FINTAN O'TOOLE

Seán Quinn's belief that he could hold the law in blatant contempt was perfectly rational

I LIKED to think I had the journalistic equivalent of gaydar. Having spent the best years of my life listening to powerful men spinning yarns, I imagined I'd developed a kind of lie-dar. But it let me down rather badly with Seán Quinn.

I watched the former multibillionaire on RTÉ's Prime Time on June 3rd, 2010, when his empire was falling apart. His performance was not at all typical of the genre. His language was simple, apparently free of ambiguity, evasion and convolution.

Asked about the €3 billion he owes Irish taxpayers, he said: "We as a family don't want to owe anybody anything. We want to pay the taxpayer back 100 per cent of his money . . . The five kids own the company; and myself, my wife and the five kids, all we want to do is make sure [that for] the taxpayer there's no loss by the Quinn group or the Quinn family. We want to pay all our debts 100 per cent."

Asked what was the security for the debt he was again impressively straightforward: "It's secured on property throughout the world in nine countries and Quinn Direct." He was saying three things without apparent equivocation: that indeed he owed the money to the Irish taxpayer; that he would pay back every cent of it; and that, in part, he would pay it from the sale of foreign property assets.

And I pretty much believed him. Stupid, of course: he now denies owing the bulk of the money, has done everything possible to avoid paying it back and went to every length, including bogus transactions and contempt of court, to put those foreign property assets beyond reach.

And yet, I still suspect that at that moment, in June 2010, Quinn wasn't lying. For one thing, Quinn is not a fool and it would have been utterly foolish to give those commitments so plainly if he did not intend to keep them. Moreover, there is a reason to think Quinn may actually have felt at that moment that he should pay the money back.

He is not like most of the Irish mega-rich, who made their money from opportunism, political connections and cuteness. Quinn's tragedy is that he is a throwback to the heroic age of 19th-century capitalism. He started with relatively little, made real things that people wanted (cement, glass, bricks) and sold them more cheaply than the opposition. He created thousands of real jobs, mostly in places that desperately needed them.

Heroic capitalists of this kind are individualists. Their individualism has unpleasant sides – egoism, obsession, a relentless need to accumulate. But its saving grace is a sense of personal responsibility. One side of "self-made" is "I made my own world"; the other side is "I take responsibility for what I've done". There's a basic pride, an old- fashioned manliness, in not owing anything to anyone – literally as well as figuratively.

So perhaps Seán Quinn really did recognise two years ago that his stupid gambling had left the Irish people with a breathtaking bill. And perhaps he did feel that his manly pride was invested in trying to pay back as much as he could. So why did this sense of honour melt away so quickly and completely? An old friend hoves into view: the allure of victimisation.

Inside every Irish master of the universe there is a whingeing little brat, his face awash with snot and tears, wailing "I didn't do anything, it was Them. . ." When things go wrong the big, bold can-do entrepreneur almost invariably turns into a snivelling wimp, passing the blame on to Them: the banks, the media, the begrudgers, the crowd up in Dublin, the Brits or whichever of the many faces of Them happens to fit the moment.

The manly Seán Quinn turned into a pathetic little boy whining "They made me do it. They took my money." But he had help. Quinn's adoption of victimhood, and thus of moral innocence, was made much easier by two factors.

One was the outpouring of support from his own workers, who reflected back to him his self-image as a deeply-wronged hero. It is perfectly understandable that people initially wanted to support the man who created their jobs. But after it became clear that Quinn had acted just like an old Ascendancy landlord, putting their jobs, their families and their futures on the roulette wheel, they continued to play along with his martyr act.

The other great reinforcer of the victim mentality is, of course, the law. Quinn believed he could literally hold the law in contempt. And this belief was perfectly rational.

He belongs to a class that can cause immense harm to other people with almost complete impunity from criminal prosecution. One class of citizens knows if it ran a "blatant, dishonest and deceitful" operation to divert €4,550, the probability of prison would loom large. Another knows that doing the same thing in relation to €455 million is a matter for civil and civilised litigation. Until society categorises such people as criminals, they will continue to see themselves as innocent victims.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 04, 2012, 03:57:10 PM
Secretly filmed video of bankrupt former billionaire Sean Quinn's son and nephew has been admitted into evidence at the High Court in Dublin.


Sean Quinn Jnr and Peter Darragh Quinn are shown in the footage apparently making an illegal deal with Russian businessmen over a shopping centre owned by Irish state bank IBRC.

The bank used the video to support a motion to appoint receivers to a wide range of Quinn family members' assets, extending this beyond the original three involved in the contempt case.

The court accepted the motion, and a full hearing is due to take place on 24 July.

It means that a receiver could take charge of the family's assets to prevent further interference with property and assets that should belong to the bank.

The court also dismissed an application by Sean Quinn Snr to represent himself in an ongoing case between the family and the bank over the validity and enforceability of loans.

Last week, the three men were found to be in contempt of court.

A High Court judge ordered them to reverse the movement of assets out of the reach of IBRC, formerly the Anglo Irish Bank.

A judge will look again on 20 July at their co-operation with the bank.

At a hearing on Friday, Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne made it clear that the men could still face jail if they do not obey a range of court orders.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on July 05, 2012, 12:12:43 AM
Quote from: trileacman on July 02, 2012, 11:26:59 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 02, 2012, 11:03:00 PM
QuoteAs I said earlier in this thread I wish the Quinns well in anything they can do that keeps assets out of Anglo's hands.

Well I hope it isn't one of your family that is waiting for the ambulance that isn't there because of your mate's refusing to pay back his loans and getting the State to do it.

Quinn and the business he created put alot of ambulances on the road and provided the money for which many people of the Northwest used to buy health insurance and pay for the healthcare that looked after them. If you are going to credit Quinn with the current austerity forced upon the nation then you must also credit him for the boom times that preceded it.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

None so blind as those who will not see.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bcarrier on July 05, 2012, 12:05:06 PM
Quote from: Declan on July 03, 2012, 08:06:43 AM
Quinn built his sense of victimhood on impunity

FINTAN O'TOOLE

Seán Quinn's belief that he could hold the law in blatant contempt was perfectly rational

I LIKED to think I had the journalistic equivalent of gaydar. Having spent the best years of my life listening to powerful men spinning yarns, I imagined I'd developed a kind of lie-dar. But it let me down rather badly with Seán Quinn.

I watched the former multibillionaire on RTÉ's Prime Time on June 3rd, 2010, when his empire was falling apart. His performance was not at all typical of the genre. His language was simple, apparently free of ambiguity, evasion and convolution.

Asked about the €3 billion he owes Irish taxpayers, he said: "We as a family don't want to owe anybody anything. We want to pay the taxpayer back 100 per cent of his money . . . The five kids own the company; and myself, my wife and the five kids, all we want to do is make sure [that for] the taxpayer there's no loss by the Quinn group or the Quinn family. We want to pay all our debts 100 per cent."

Asked what was the security for the debt he was again impressively straightforward: "It's secured on property throughout the world in nine countries and Quinn Direct." He was saying three things without apparent equivocation: that indeed he owed the money to the Irish taxpayer; that he would pay back every cent of it; and that, in part, he would pay it from the sale of foreign property assets.

And I pretty much believed him. Stupid, of course: he now denies owing the bulk of the money, has done everything possible to avoid paying it back and went to every length, including bogus transactions and contempt of court, to put those foreign property assets beyond reach.

And yet, I still suspect that at that moment, in June 2010, Quinn wasn't lying. For one thing, Quinn is not a fool and it would have been utterly foolish to give those commitments so plainly if he did not intend to keep them. Moreover, there is a reason to think Quinn may actually have felt at that moment that he should pay the money back.

He is not like most of the Irish mega-rich, who made their money from opportunism, political connections and cuteness. Quinn's tragedy is that he is a throwback to the heroic age of 19th-century capitalism. He started with relatively little, made real things that people wanted (cement, glass, bricks) and sold them more cheaply than the opposition. He created thousands of real jobs, mostly in places that desperately needed them.

Heroic capitalists of this kind are individualists. Their individualism has unpleasant sides – egoism, obsession, a relentless need to accumulate. But its saving grace is a sense of personal responsibility. One side of "self-made" is "I made my own world"; the other side is "I take responsibility for what I've done". There's a basic pride, an old- fashioned manliness, in not owing anything to anyone – literally as well as figuratively.

So perhaps Seán Quinn really did recognise two years ago that his stupid gambling had left the Irish people with a breathtaking bill. And perhaps he did feel that his manly pride was invested in trying to pay back as much as he could. So why did this sense of honour melt away so quickly and completely? An old friend hoves into view: the allure of victimisation.

Inside every Irish master of the universe there is a whingeing little brat, his face awash with snot and tears, wailing "I didn't do anything, it was Them. . ." When things go wrong the big, bold can-do entrepreneur almost invariably turns into a snivelling wimp, passing the blame on to Them: the banks, the media, the begrudgers, the crowd up in Dublin, the Brits or whichever of the many faces of Them happens to fit the moment.

The manly Seán Quinn turned into a pathetic little boy whining "They made me do it. They took my money." But he had help. Quinn's adoption of victimhood, and thus of moral innocence, was made much easier by two factors.

One was the outpouring of support from his own workers, who reflected back to him his self-image as a deeply-wronged hero. It is perfectly understandable that people initially wanted to support the man who created their jobs. But after it became clear that Quinn had acted just like an old Ascendancy landlord, putting their jobs, their families and their futures on the roulette wheel, they continued to play along with his martyr act.

The other great reinforcer of the victim mentality is, of course, the law. Quinn believed he could literally hold the law in contempt. And this belief was perfectly rational.

He belongs to a class that can cause immense harm to other people with almost complete impunity from criminal prosecution. One class of citizens knows if it ran a "blatant, dishonest and deceitful" operation to divert €4,550, the probability of prison would loom large. Another knows that doing the same thing in relation to €455 million is a matter for civil and civilised litigation. Until society categorises such people as criminals, they will continue to see themselves as innocent victims.


+1
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 05, 2012, 03:17:02 PM
I know this is not about Quinns but this is the sort of shit that was going on with the banks at that time.

Belfast developer wins court action against bank

Mr Walsh has built up a portfolio which includes properties on Kensington High Street A Belfast property investor has obtained a High Court injunction preventing the Bank of Scotland from taking legal action against him or his companies.

Chris Walsh claimed that the bank effectively ordered him to sell his multi-million pound portfolio and repay all his loans within the next 18 months.

He said such a rapid sale would not raise enough to cover the loans and would likely lead to his personal bankruptcy.

He claimed that the bank had given him assurances that loans made in 2006 and 2007 could be repaid over an extended period of as much as 20 years.

The bank disputed that these assurances had been given and said that while it wanted the properties sold and loans repaid, it had not specified an 18-month time frame.

Mr Justice Weathrup granted the injunction saying that there was "a serious issue" to be tried and that without the injunction there would be "a winding up of the companies and the bankruptcy of Mr Walsh".

Mr Walsh told the court he was still servicing his loans, paying annual interest of £2.6m and capital repayments of £1.96m

Portfolio

Mr Walsh has built up a property portfolio over the last 10 years which, at its peak, was valued at more than £100m.

The portfolio includes: the Arndale Shopping Centre in Leeds, Direct Line House in Leeds, the Nags Head shopping centre in Islington, properties on Kensington High Street, the Riverside Walk shopping centre in Thetford and the Balmoral Plaza in south Belfast.

Mr Walsh was financed by Bank of Scotland Ireland (BoSI); it was a Bank of Scotland subsidiary which specialised in property lending.

BoSI ran up enormous losses in the property crash and is now being shut down by its ultimate owners, Lloyds Banking Group.

In an affidavit, Mr Walsh explained that his loans were on a 20-year basis until 2006.

At that point, he borrowed £6.2m on a three-year term to buy the Riverside Walk centre.

However, he said BoSI's then Regional Director, Stephen McDonald, had assured him the bank would ultimately grant a longer term loan.

Mr Walsh said the following year Mr McDonald told him that he was "under considerable pressure to lend more money" due to increased targets imposed by the bank's management.

The banker then showed him details of Direct Line House in Leeds and proposed that he should buy it.

Mr Walsh agreed and borrowed a total of £39m, mostly via his companies but with personal borrowings of £5.5m.

The loans were for an initial three years but Mr Walsh said he only agreed to borrow having been assured that the loan could be converted into a longer term facility.

Again, the bank disputed that such assurances had been given.

However, Mr Walsh's solicitor said that Mr McDonald had told her that he had given the assurances. Mr McDonald left the bank in May 2010.

Mr Justice Weatherup said that bank documents also "tend to support the representations that the three-year term was not a final fixed term and that further arrangements would be made in relation to an extended loan period if there was no sale at the end of the period".

The case is due in court again in September, with a full hearing in January next year.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 20, 2012, 11:19:20 AM
Sean Quinn in last-minute Supreme Court appeal


Bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn and his family are seeking a last-minute appeal to the Irish Supreme Court.

Judge Elizabeth Dunne is considering the request, but even if she grants leave to appeal, it may not alter her decision on punitive measures.

Mr Quinn, once Ireland's richest man, is due in court later to discover if he will receive a prison sentence.

He is due to find out if he will be jailed for contempt of court and failure to comply with court orders.

The High Court in Dublin has already found Mr Quinn, his son Sean Jr and nephew Peter Daragh Quinn in contempt.

An appeal to the Supreme Court can take years, though in a high profile case like this it would be fast-tracked.

Therefore, Judge Dunne could grant leave while still sending Sean Quinn, his son Sean and nephew Peter, to prison.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 12:19:54 PM
Petey on the run.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 20, 2012, 12:33:53 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 12:19:54 PM
Petey on the run.

ha ha !!!  :P Teemore man is sick in bed  8)  :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 20, 2012, 12:34:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 12:19:54 PM
Petey on the run.

Is there extradition from Kiev??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 20, 2012, 12:35:33 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 20, 2012, 12:34:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 12:19:54 PM
Petey on the run.

Is there extradition from Kiev??

Is there extradition from Fermanagh??  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 20, 2012, 12:51:05 PM
Arrest warrant issued for Sean Quinn's nephew 



Peter Darragh Quinn, a nephew of the bankrupt former billionaire Sean Quinn

The judge made the order after he failed to turn up at the High Court in Dublin on Friday to be sentenced.

Sean Quinn, his son, Sean and nephew Peter Darragh, were found to be in contempt of court in June.

Sean Quinn snr and his son were present in court. In June, the men were given three weeks to comply with a series of court orders before their sentencing.

The judge ruled last month they had put international property beyond the reach of the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), in breach of a court order.

A solicitor for Anglo Irish Bank left court to inform Irish police of the arrest order to bring Peter D Quinn to court.

Gardai have discretion if he is genuinely ill.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cosmo Kramer on July 20, 2012, 01:14:55 PM
It's well past time to lock these f**kers up and melt down the key.

Unbelievable arrogance. They can come out when every penny they've stashed away has been returned AND they've served a suitable sentence for their actions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 20, 2012, 01:19:48 PM
Quote from: Cosmo Kramer on July 20, 2012, 01:14:55 PM
It's well past time to lock these f**kers up and melt down the key.

Unbelievable arrogance. They can come out when every penny they've stashed away has been returned AND they've served a suitable sentence for their actions.

With people not paying their fines and people like the Quinns, bankers, lawyers, accountants there'll be work for the builders shortly cos a very, very large prison(s) will be needed if everyone is going to be sent to jail.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 20, 2012, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 20, 2012, 01:19:48 PM
With people not paying their fines and people like the Quinns, bankers, lawyers, accountants there'll be work for the builders shortly cos a very, very large prison(s) will be needed if everyone is going to be sent to jail.

Fiscal stimulus we can all agree on
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 20, 2012, 01:41:44 PM
In a twist Russians/Ukranians are saying "assets, what assets" and the local legal firm employed by Quinns to, ahem, move these 'non existant' assets now claim Quinns were never clients.

So Quinns are now totally adrift. Christ on a bike!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 20, 2012, 01:42:44 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 20, 2012, 01:41:44 PM
In a twist Russians/Ukranians are saying "assets, what assets" and the local legal firm employed by Quinns to, ahem, move these 'non existant' assets now claim Quinns were never clients.

So Quinns are now totally adrift. Christ on a bike!

If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on July 20, 2012, 02:13:58 PM
The Sopranos had nothing on this. Tony sends Paulie Walnuts and Silvio to Russia to get some local hoods to B&B some loot until the heat dies down. The deal is based on Wise Guys' honour - Tony has Boris's word that he'll hand the swag back when the dust settles, minus an agreed fee, of course.

But some snitch blabs about the Russian deal and the Feds catch up with Tony and the boys. So Tony has no option now - to keep out of the slammer he has to hand over the moolah. So he calls Boris and says "look, the gig is over - send on the dough, 'cos I gotta hand it over to Uncle Sam". You can almost hear Boris shrugging over the phone. "Who are you? What you talkin about? What dough?" Click.

So here we are in the final scene of Season 7, Episode 1. The courtroom. The boys are here to hand over the cash. We know they don't have it. So the credits are about to roll and we look forward to how this will play out next week. But this is the Sopranos. There's always a dramatic and usually comic twist to make sure we come back next week.

Paulie Walnuts is on the lam.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 20, 2012, 02:18:17 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 20, 2012, 02:13:58 PM
Tony has Boris's word that he'll hand the swag back when the dust settles, minus an agreed fee, of course.

(http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTQ4MDQxNDc2M15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDg5MzE0Mg@@._V1._SX640_SY480_.jpg)
"Boris . . . always Boris"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 20, 2012, 02:27:57 PM
Brilliant Hardy - I was playing out the scene in my head as I read it.

Can we all agree to jail the Quinns now and then it will be easier to deal with their shenannigans once we know that they aren't on planes to the British Virgin Island, Nauro or Sealand (look Sealand up, it does exist) to try and pull a few more fast ones.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 02:51:46 PM
Feck that, give them a medal for putting it up to Anglo.

Free the Teemore three. 

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 20, 2012, 02:53:14 PM
"Fitzie, can you get me off the hook...for old times sake?"

"Can't do it Quinny."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on July 20, 2012, 03:21:20 PM
RTE front page reporting that the two younger Quinns are to be jailed but story behind link hasn't been updated.

EDIT: Independent says they both got 3 months
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 03:22:07 PM
Both Jrs to be jailed for min of 3 months. Sr kept out to overturn things. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18928472
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 20, 2012, 03:25:25 PM
Bankrupt former billionaire Sean Quinn has been spared jail in Dublin for moving millions out of the reach of a bank owed £2bn.

His son Sean and nephew Peter Darragh Quinn will be jailed until they purge the contempt of court.

They will spend a minimum of three months in prison.

The three had breached a court order by putting international property beyond the reach of the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC).

Earlier, an arrest warrant was issued for Peter Darragh Quinn.

The judge made the order after he failed to turn up at the High Court in Dublin on Friday to be sentenced.

The three men were found to be in contempt of court in June.

At that time, the judge ordered them to reverse the movement of assets out of the reach of the IRBC, the state-owned former Anglo Irish Bank.

They were then given three weeks to comply with a range of further court orders before they were sentenced.

Those orders included:

Locked out

Full disclosure of all assets worldwide in which the three hold an interest;

A receiver be appointed over all assets, except for family homes and joint accounts;

The men must resign from the board of directors or from any managerial role in any company or body within the International Property Group (IPG).

The Irish state bailed out the Anglo Irish bank when it failed and the IBRC's function is now to recover money for the Irish taxpayer.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 20, 2012, 03:59:03 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 20, 2012, 02:13:58 PM
The Sopranos had nothing on this. Tony sends Paulie Walnuts and Silvio to Russia to get some local hoods to B&B some loot until the heat dies down. The deal is based on Wise Guys' honour - Tony has Boris's word that he'll hand the swag back when the dust settles, minus an agreed fee, of course.

But some snitch blabs about the Russian deal and the Feds catch up with Tony and the boys. So Tony has no option now - to keep out of the slammer he has to hand over the moolah. So he calls Boris and says "look, the gig is over - send on the dough, 'cos I gotta hand it over to Uncle Sam". You can almost hear Boris shrugging over the phone. "Who are you? What you talkin about? What dough?" Click.

So here we are in the final scene of Season 7, Episode 1. The courtroom. The boys are here to hand over the cash. We know they don't have it. So the credits are about to roll and we look forward to how this will play out next week. But this is the Sopranos. There's always a dramatic and usually comic twist to make sure we come back next week.

Paulie Walnuts is on the lam.

For this alone I hope ye beat Dublin on Sunday.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cosmo Kramer on July 20, 2012, 04:32:23 PM
The two boys should get a good feel for their surroundings while they're in there - maybe bring their dad/uncle in and show him around too. I'd say the three of them will be seeing a lot more of the place.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: All of a Sludden on July 20, 2012, 04:34:29 PM
They'll be out quicker than you can say temporary release.

I didn't think any of them would ever do a day, hopefully we can move on to the politicians and bankers next.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 20, 2012, 04:35:37 PM
A nice deserted island would be a good spot for the lads for the next couple of years...  :-X

This whole witch hunt is a joke. Why are the authorities not chasing all the corrupt bankers, politicians and developers ... country is a complete joke!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 04:50:17 PM
Quote from: Cosmo Kramer on July 20, 2012, 04:32:23 PM
The two boys should get a good feel for their surroundings while they're in there - maybe bring their dad/uncle in and show him around too. I'd say the three of them will be seeing a lot more of the place.

If petey's sense he'll not see a bit of it. He'll miss the AI final right enough. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Abble on July 20, 2012, 09:18:56 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 20, 2012, 04:35:37 PM
A nice deserted island would be a good spot for the lads for the next couple of years...  :-X

This whole witch hunt is a joke. Why are the authorities not chasing all the corrupt bankers, politicians and developers ... country is a complete joke!

when you think of some of the scum walking back out of the courts on a daily basis getting away with all sorts you really do have to wonder. the whole thing is fcuked. what is known now about the bankers shenanigans robbin and thievin us all and not one yet is being taken up ! this whole quinn thing has been a perfect distraction for the banks. ok, they fcuked up bigtime but putting these folk in jail is a disgrace. You'd think they were the only people in this country moving an asset or three around
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 20, 2012, 09:25:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 02:51:46 PM
Feck that, give them a medal for putting it up to Anglo.

Free the Teemore three.

You do know any assets recovered don't go to Seanie Fitz but to the Irish tax-payer.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 23, 2012, 09:49:37 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 20, 2012, 09:25:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 02:51:46 PM
Feck that, give them a medal for putting it up to Anglo.

Free the Teemore three.

You do know any assets recovered don't go to Seanie Fitz but to the Irish tax-payer.

what do you plan on doing with your quota of the assets Leo? what difference do you reckon it will make if these assets eventually get taken out of Quinn's hands?? Sweet FA. Its a witch hunt which is being carried on out the basis of making an example that no-one in Ireland is too big to be taken down to size and made pay... well the ones that it suits they go after anyway.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 23, 2012, 11:23:20 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 23, 2012, 09:49:37 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 20, 2012, 09:25:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 02:51:46 PM
Feck that, give them a medal for putting it up to Anglo.

Free the Teemore three.

You do know any assets recovered don't go to Seanie Fitz but to the Irish tax-payer.

what do you plan on doing with your quota of the assets Leo? what difference do you reckon it will make if these assets eventually get taken out of Quinn's hands?? Sweet FA. Its a witch hunt which is being carried on out the basis of making an example that no-one in Ireland is too big to be taken down to size and made pay... well the ones that it suits they go after anyway.

I pay into a different exchequer.
Do you subscribe to the view that no wrongdoing should be punished unless all wrongdoing is punished or is SQ a special case because he created the jobs he gambled with?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 23, 2012, 12:08:38 PM
I think if the Quinn empire had have been left alone, they would have honoured whatever debt was owed by them. They had the rug pulled from beneath their feet very dramatically right from the beginning of this debacle and the whole situation could and should have been handled much better.

I think they have been unjustly treated by the public authorities in the south of Ireland, a bit of a cash cow to chase after I would say. They have been turned into "lets make some kind of example of these f*ck3rs and we'll pillage them for whatever we can get our hands on too - what's theirs is ours!!"

I dont think the Irish Govt gave much care to the Quinn jobs in the area when most of this has gone on either.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on July 23, 2012, 12:10:10 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 23, 2012, 09:49:37 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 20, 2012, 09:25:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 02:51:46 PM
Feck that, give them a medal for putting it up to Anglo.

Free the Teemore three.

You do know any assets recovered don't go to Seanie Fitz but to the Irish tax-payer.

what do you plan on doing with your quota of the assets Leo? what difference do you reckon it will make if these assets eventually get taken out of Quinn's hands?? Sweet FA. Its a witch hunt which is being carried on out the basis of making an example that no-one in Ireland is too big to be taken down to size and made pay... well the ones that it suits they go after anyway.


Sammy things might be changing in that regard
Former Anglo Irish Bank finance director Willie McAteer is due in court this afternoon to be charged in connection with alleged financial irregularities at the bank.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 23, 2012, 12:12:29 PM
Good, now lets see how Willie gets on....  :-\
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 23, 2012, 12:13:15 PM
This afternoon, the Quinn family issued a statement to RTÉ News which is understood to be a reference to Seán Quinn Jr.

It said: "Ireland today is imprisoning people who have been defrauded of millions by banks whom they have never met or never borrowed a penny from, while the real perpetrators continue to walk free."

Meanwhile, the search for Peter Darragh Quinn continues after he failed to turn up in court yesterday and a warrant was issued for his arrest.

Gardaí visited his known addresses in the Republic of Ireland but his home is in Co Fermanagh, which is outside of garda jurisdiction.

He was not at home today when RTÉ called to the house close to Lisbellaw in Co Fermanagh, though locals reported seeing some activity there earlier in the week.

The PSNI say a European Arrest Warrant has not yet been issued for his arrest and for now, the matter lies with the Dublin courts.

Legal sources say that because this is not a criminal offence, a European Arrest Warrant is highly unlikely to be issued leaving Peter Darragh Quinn potentially outside of the reach of the gardaí.

Barrister Paul Anthony McDermott says that when somebody who is in contempt of an Irish court is outside of the jurisdiction, all a foreign police force can do is keep an eye on them and provide intelligence to gardaí here.

A further statement to RTÉ from Peter Darragh's cousin, Ciara Quinn, said she had not spoken to him and did not know where he is.

However she said Peter Darragh Quinn had been asked by a court to do something that he could not do and that had left him in a very frightening position.

Judge Elizabeth Dunne has made it clear that at any time the Quinns can come back into court and purge their contempt by reversing the transactions relating to the multi-million euro asset-stripping scheme.

The threat of prison also remains for Seán Quinn Sr who was given more time yesterday to comply with the court.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 23, 2012, 01:34:13 PM
Quote from: gerrykeegan on July 23, 2012, 12:10:10 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 23, 2012, 09:49:37 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 20, 2012, 09:25:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 20, 2012, 02:51:46 PM
Feck that, give them a medal for putting it up to Anglo.

Free the Teemore three.

You do know any assets recovered don't go to Seanie Fitz but to the Irish tax-payer.

what do you plan on doing with your quota of the assets Leo? what difference do you reckon it will make if these assets eventually get taken out of Quinn's hands?? Sweet FA. Its a witch hunt which is being carried on out the basis of making an example that no-one in Ireland is too big to be taken down to size and made pay... well the ones that it suits they go after anyway.


Sammy things might be changing in that regard
Former Anglo Irish Bank finance director Willie McAteer is due in court this afternoon to be charged in connection with alleged financial irregularities at the bank.

The 56-year-old was the second most senior executive at the bank before his resignation in January 2009.

The arrest is the latest development in the ongoing investigation by the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation and the Director of Corporate Enforcement into alleged financial irregularities.

It is the third time gardaí have detained him. He was questioned twice in 2010 and 2011 by detectives from the Fraud Bureau.

Mr McAteer was charged with 16 counts under Section 60 of the Companies Act, which is the provision in Irish company law that essentially prohibits a private company from giving direct or indirect financial assistance for the purchase of its own shares.
A second man in his 50s was also arrested as part of the same investigation.


This should be a bit of positive news for the Quinns anyway and should help with their claims against Anglo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on July 23, 2012, 01:54:22 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 23, 2012, 12:08:38 PM
I think if the Quinn empire had have been left alone, they would have honoured whatever debt was owed by them. They had the rug pulled from beneath their feet very dramatically right from the beginning of this debacle and the whole situation could and should have been handled much better.

I think they have been unjustly treated by the public authorities in the south of Ireland, a bit of a cash cow to chase after I would say. They have been turned into "lets make some kind of example of these f*ck3rs and we'll pillage them for whatever we can get our hands on too - what's theirs is ours!!"

I dont think the Irish Govt gave much care to the Quinn jobs in the area when most of this has gone on either.

SQ didn't care too much about his employees when he gambled their livlihoods away in the pursuit of a few extra quid, it is greed and egotisim, that has brought the Quinns to this point. How many public services have been cut and "ordinary" peoples lives made miserable by the bail out of these people. Nobody forced Quinn to do what he did, as for the "gombeen" businessman who didn't know what he was doing........ tiresome at this stage and nobody believes it at this stage. They have broken the law, were quite willing to give everything away to others, so the taxpayer in the south i.e me and others can not recoup what they gambled away. They broke the law, stuck two fingers up to the Irish people (filing for Bankruptcy in NI, then ignoring high court orders, skipping off to wherever) and should be treated as criminals the same as every one else, it doesn't matter the colour of their collars happen to be white. If this happened to Quinn in the UK, I'm sure we would all be listening to "its because they are irishmen, they are doing this".  As for the "others been punished before me defence", GTFO!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 23, 2012, 02:08:15 PM
He didn't gamble their livelihoods. The majority of the 7000 jobs that SQ created are still there. How many services have been paid for by the taxes from these jobs. He made a huge mistake getting involved with Anglo but the jobs he created are still there and the Irish state is still reaping the benefits from this.
I think you'll find they aren't criminals and they didbn't break the law. They broke civil orders, what they were actually doing was legal because of the complete f££k up Anglo made of trying to take over the foreign properties. Yeah they stuck two fingers up at Anglo alright, and I don't blame them for doing that. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on July 23, 2012, 02:08:32 PM
Bollix.  When Quinn was getting hounded by Anglo to re invest  to create the wealth bubble that exploded to gamble.  Anglo for all intense purposes were supposedly being well managed and run.  They sold themselves time and time again to Quinn, and being an investor he took his chances.  Anglo was taken over by Government on behalf of taxpayers (not willingly by tax payers and S Quinn had nothing to do with this politically motivated finacially disastrous move) S Quinn is only answerable to the Irish taxpayer by default and reasoning beyond his control and circumstances have advanced to the point where the taxpayer thinks he owns Quinn and can do what he likes with him.    Thousands of smaller builders and countless businesses have been put out of business by banks who overlent. So feel free to criticise any poor businessman in your area struggling to keep things afloat against the banks because the similarities are there.  The prize kill is much bigger here. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on July 23, 2012, 02:18:58 PM
It is worth noting here that SQ did not gamble Irish taxpayers money, ironically the shambles of an organisation that was Anglo did not either.  The Irish Government took the problem to the taxpayers door, no one else.  Get off your self righteous horses and honestly analyse the situation - imagine the number of investment phonecalls that Anglo were making to Quinn on a daily basis.  He probably only worked with them on a fraction of the amount of investments they were prepared to offer him.  Sean Quinn could not have called in taxpayers money to save himself if his business had collapsed, Anglo had that forced upon themselves by a government policy.  Just like Angle  the Governemtn policy has failed..it was unwanted, is still unwanted.  But anyonewith half a brain and half a titter of wit can see what happened here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on July 23, 2012, 02:45:29 PM
Another "look what you let me do" argument from Tyrone.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 23, 2012, 02:48:29 PM
Another "hide your head in the sand and take no responsibility" argument from the south.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 23, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
The taxpayer does not own Seán Quinn. The taxpayer owns Seán Quinn's assets.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 23, 2012, 03:24:15 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 23, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
The taxpayer does not own Seán Quinn. The taxpayer owns Seán Quinn's assets.

the government will own your house too if you cant afford your property tax in the next year or two if they decide to make it €xxxx .... be careful what you wish for buddy - Your government can do anything they wish, anything at all, no matter how stupid it may be!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 23, 2012, 03:36:34 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 23, 2012, 03:24:15 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 23, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
The taxpayer does not own Seán Quinn. The taxpayer owns Seán Quinn's assets.

the government will own your house too if you cant afford your property tax in the next year or two if they decide to make it €xxxx .... be careful what you wish for buddy - Your government can do anything they wish, anything at all, no matter how stupid it may be!

As straw man arguments go, that has to be one of the best. Well done
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 23, 2012, 04:37:29 PM
Did you pay your household charge??

no sweat sweet cheeks  8) I just love the way this Irish government rolls

A law unto themselves, as I supposed they can be can't they...  :o scary
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 23, 2012, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 23, 2012, 02:45:29 PM
Another "look what you let me do" argument from Tyrone.

Meath man playing the man and not the ball.

f**king shocker.  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 23, 2012, 07:38:07 PM
Quotethe government will own your house too if you cant afford your property tax in the next year or two if they decide to make it €xxxx .... be careful what you wish for buddy - Your government can do anything they wish, anything at all, no matter how stupid it may be!

Bollix. People in Fermanagh have had property taxes all along.
The government does what it was elected to do, which is to recover as much money from billionaires who haven't paid back their loans so that schools and hospitals can get the money that would otherwise go to banks.

anyhow, the action moves along, Quinn will have a few mates to chat to in jail 

GENEVIEVE CARBERY and SIMON CARSWELL

Two former senior executives of Anglo Irish Bank appeared in court this afternoon charged in connection with alleged financial irregularities at the bank.

The bank's former finance director Willie McAteer and executive Pat Whelan are the first people to be charged in the three-and-a-half-year-old Anglo Irish Bank investigation.

Mr McAteer (61), with an address at Auburn Villas, Rathgar, Dublin was charged with 16 counts of giving unlawful financial assistance  to buy shares in Anglo Irish Bank in 2008.

It is claimed the alleged unlawful financial help to buy shares was given between July 10th and July 17th, 2008 to 15 people - which include the so-called "Maple Ten" group of Irish Investors and several members of Sean Quinn's family - and from July 17th until July 30th, of the same year, to Patricia Quinn, the wife of now bankrupt businessman.

The court granted Mr McAteer bail on his own bond of €1,000 and an independent surety of €10,000 in cash or equivalent. The surety was put up by his wife. Mr McAteer also surrendered his passport for the duration of the court proceedings.

Judge Cormac Dunne also ordered him to continue to reside at his home in Auburn Villas, Rathgar and to notify gardaí of a change in address at least 48 hours in advance.

Sgt Catherina Gunne told the court she arrested Mr McAteer at 9.50am this morning on the N7 at Rathcoole. He was taken to the Bridewell Garda station and charged.

He made no reply after each charge was put to him, she said. The case will return to court on October 8th.

Mr McAteer left the Criminal Courts complex at about 2.30 with his family.

Mr Whelan was charged later with the same 16 offences.

Mr Whelan (50), of "Rachra", Coast Road, Malahide, Co Dublin, was arrested today at 12.25pm at his home and brought to the Bridewell Garda station.

Det Sgt Michael Prendergast of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement told the court that Mr Whelan gave no response when the charges were read to him.

Mr Whelan, the former managing director of Anglo's Irish lending business and a one-time director of the bank, was released on bail on a bond of €1,000 and independent surety of €10,000.

He has agreed to sign on every Sunday at his local Garda station in Malahide and to give 48 hours notice to travel outside the State, other than the UK where he has business interests.

He must also give 48 hours notice of any change of address.

Michael Staines, solicitor for Mr Whelan, asked Judge Dunne could his client sign on every Sunday as he was "over and back" to London during the week.

Mr Whelan will appear before the court again on October 8th. There was no objection to Mr Whelan's bail.

The Quinn family members who allegedly received unlawful financial assistance were named as Seán Quinn jnr; Collette Marie Quinn; Aoife Quinn; Breda Quinn; Ciara Quinn and Patricia Quinn.

The other Anglo Irish Bank customers are Patrick McKillen; Seamus Ross; Brian O'Farrell; John McCabe; Gerard Maguire; Patrick Kearney; Gerard Gannon; Gerard Conlon; Joseph O'Reilly and Sean Reilly.

The charges were made under section 60 (15) of the Companies Act 1963. Penalties under the Act can include up to five years imprisonment or a fine of €3174.25 per offence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on July 23, 2012, 07:52:01 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 23, 2012, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 23, 2012, 02:45:29 PM
Another "look what you let me do" argument from Tyrone.

Meath man playing the man and not the ball.

f**king shocker.  ::)

Tyrone man whining about Meath.

Business as usual.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2012, 08:01:44 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 23, 2012, 07:38:07 PM
Quotethe government will own your house too if you cant afford your property tax in the next year or two if they decide to make it €xxxx .... be careful what you wish for buddy - Your government can do anything they wish, anything at all, no matter how stupid it may be!

Bollix. People in Fermanagh have had property taxes all along.
The government does what it was elected to do, which is to recover as much money from billionaires who haven't paid back their loans so that schools and hospitals can get the money that would otherwise go to banks.

anyhow, the action moves along, Quinn will have a few mates to chat to in jail 

GENEVIEVE CARBERY and SIMON CARSWELL

Two former senior executives of Anglo Irish Bank appeared in court this afternoon charged in connection with alleged financial irregularities at the bank.

The bank's former finance director Willie McAteer and executive Pat Whelan are the first people to be charged in the three-and-a-half-year-old Anglo Irish Bank investigation.

Mr McAteer (61), with an address at Auburn Villas, Rathgar, Dublin was charged with 16 counts of giving unlawful financial assistance  to buy shares in Anglo Irish Bank in 2008.

It is claimed the alleged unlawful financial help to buy shares was given between July 10th and July 17th, 2008 to 15 people - which include the so-called "Maple Ten" group of Irish Investors and several members of Sean Quinn's family - and from July 17th until July 30th, of the same year, to Patricia Quinn, the wife of now bankrupt businessman.

The court granted Mr McAteer bail on his own bond of €1,000 and an independent surety of €10,000 in cash or equivalent. The surety was put up by his wife. Mr McAteer also surrendered his passport for the duration of the court proceedings.

Judge Cormac Dunne also ordered him to continue to reside at his home in Auburn Villas, Rathgar and to notify gardaí of a change in address at least 48 hours in advance.

Sgt Catherina Gunne told the court she arrested Mr McAteer at 9.50am this morning on the N7 at Rathcoole. He was taken to the Bridewell Garda station and charged.

He made no reply after each charge was put to him, she said. The case will return to court on October 8th.

Mr McAteer left the Criminal Courts complex at about 2.30 with his family.

Mr Whelan was charged later with the same 16 offences.

Mr Whelan (50), of "Rachra", Coast Road, Malahide, Co Dublin, was arrested today at 12.25pm at his home and brought to the Bridewell Garda station.

Det Sgt Michael Prendergast of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement told the court that Mr Whelan gave no response when the charges were read to him.

Mr Whelan, the former managing director of Anglo's Irish lending business and a one-time director of the bank, was released on bail on a bond of €1,000 and independent surety of €10,000.

He has agreed to sign on every Sunday at his local Garda station in Malahide and to give 48 hours notice to travel outside the State, other than the UK where he has business interests.

He must also give 48 hours notice of any change of address.

Michael Staines, solicitor for Mr Whelan, asked Judge Dunne could his client sign on every Sunday as he was "over and back" to London during the week.

Mr Whelan will appear before the court again on October 8th. There was no objection to Mr Whelan's bail.

The Quinn family members who allegedly received unlawful financial assistance were named as Seán Quinn jnr; Collette Marie Quinn; Aoife Quinn; Breda Quinn; Ciara Quinn and Patricia Quinn.

The other Anglo Irish Bank customers are Patrick McKillen; Seamus Ross; Brian O'Farrell; John McCabe; Gerard Maguire; Patrick Kearney; Gerard Gannon; Gerard Conlon; Joseph O'Reilly and Sean Reilly.

The charges were made under section 60 (15) of the Companies Act 1963. Penalties under the Act can include up to five years imprisonment or a fine of €3174.25 per offence.

Penalities from a gentler era. Nobody in 1963 could have imagined 50 families including the Quinns   condemning 4 million people to a 10 year long economic depression.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 23, 2012, 08:12:34 PM
The Quinn family press release follows hard on the heels of the Mortimer family press release. PFO.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 24, 2012, 08:12:22 AM
Great news yesterday for the Quinns. Now that criminal proceedings are being brought against Anglo, it now looks increasly likely the Loans that Anglo are enforcing are illegal. So we'll see who was stripping assets of who.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on July 24, 2012, 08:38:43 AM
Privilege even exists within the Prison Service it seems
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0724/1224320710402.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0724/1224320710402.html)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 24, 2012, 08:54:23 AM
Seanie Fitz scooped!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0724/breaking7.html

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 09:11:29 AM
Quote
the government will own your house too if you cant afford your property tax in the next year or two if they decide to make it €xxxx .... be careful what you wish for buddy - Your government can do anything they wish, anything at all, no matter how stupid it may be!

Bollix. People in Fermanagh have had property taxes all along.
The government does what it was elected to do, which is to recover as much money from billionaires who haven't paid back their loans so that schools and hospitals can get the money that would otherwise go to banks.


I was referring to the new household charge/property tax that has been and is on the verge of being introduced to the Irish taxpayers in the south of Ireland... what happens if it starts pushing many people over the edge and they can't afford it... will deiseach be so patriotic then? ... did you not get that?

Was Seany Fitz heading off on his hols this morning?? Mr Fitzpatrick was arrested at 5.35am this morning at Dublin Airport and was taken to the Bridewell Garda Station, where charges are due to be put to him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 24, 2012, 09:28:33 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 09:11:29 AM
I was referring to the new household charge/property tax that has been and is on the verge of being introduced to the Irish taxpayers in the south of Ireland... what happens if it starts pushing many people over the edge and they can't afford it... will deiseach be so patriotic then? ... did you not get that?
A €100 tax is not going to push people over the edge. Losing their jobs is what pushes people over the edge. I wonder how many people lost their jobs because Seán Quinn gambled his company because he wanted to be a billionaire rather than a millionaire.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 24, 2012, 09:34:36 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 09:11:29 AM
Quote
the government will own your house too if you cant afford your property tax in the next year or two if they decide to make it €xxxx .... be careful what you wish for buddy - Your government can do anything they wish, anything at all, no matter how stupid it may be!

Bollix. People in Fermanagh have had property taxes all along.
The government does what it was elected to do, which is to recover as much money from billionaires who haven't paid back their loans so that schools and hospitals can get the money that would otherwise go to banks.


I was referring to the new household charge/property tax that has been and is on the verge of being introduced to the Irish taxpayers in the south of Ireland... what happens if it starts pushing many people over the edge and they can't afford it... will deiseach be so patriotic then? ... did you not get that?

Was Seany Fitz heading off on his hols this morning?? Mr Fitzpatrick was arrested at 5.35am this morning at Dublin Airport and was taken to the Bridewell Garda Station, where charges are due to be put to him.


Is there not already a property tax in place in the north of Ireland??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 24, 2012, 09:42:13 AM
Quote from: deiseach on July 24, 2012, 09:28:33 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 09:11:29 AM
I was referring to the new household charge/property tax that has been and is on the verge of being introduced to the Irish taxpayers in the south of Ireland... what happens if it starts pushing many people over the edge and they can't afford it... will deiseach be so patriotic then? ... did you not get that?
A €100 tax is not going to push people over the edge. Losing their jobs is what pushes people over the edge. I wonder how many people lost their jobs because Seán Quinn gambled his company because he wanted to be a billionaire rather than a millionaire.

And how many people got a job because of the same reason? If you're counting one side of that arguement count the other. And Quinn had plenty of opportunity to outsourse alot of his operations but he made a point of keeping it local to develop the local area. and regardless of the diasterous gamble on Anglo the majority of those jobs are still there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 10:18:06 AM
Quote from: deiseach on July 24, 2012, 09:28:33 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 09:11:29 AM
I was referring to the new household charge/property tax that has been and is on the verge of being introduced to the Irish taxpayers in the south of Ireland... what happens if it starts pushing many people over the edge and they can't afford it... will deiseach be so patriotic then? ... did you not get that?
A €100 tax is not going to push people over the edge. Losing their jobs is what pushes people over the edge. I wonder how many people lost their jobs because Seán Quinn gambled his company because he wanted to be a billionaire rather than a millionaire.

Have you paid it yet? I bet you have cos you are such a patriotic Irish man who wouldnt put a foot wrong. How much is this property tax going to rise to next year? thats what might push people over the edge.
Can you see what might be going on here? Do you not think that the authorities were too quick to act in relation to pulling the plug in QI? the lifeblood of the Quinn company and strip them off everything they have? A much quicker fix than waiting for the taxes and monies coming in from things staying as they were.... Its been a witch hunt from the minute they saw that everything wasnt 100% and they pounced on them like a ton of bricks.

Tubberman, I am not referring to the north  :P
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 24, 2012, 10:20:44 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 10:18:06 AM
Have you paid it yet? I bet you have cos you are such a patriotic Irish man who wouldnt put a foot wrong.

You say it like it's an insult.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 10:21:52 AM
Quote from: deiseach on July 24, 2012, 10:20:44 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 10:18:06 AM
Have you paid it yet? I bet you have cos you are such a patriotic Irish man who wouldnt put a foot wrong.

You say it like it's an insult.

You havent answered my question or any of my points. What do you think of Bono?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 24, 2012, 10:26:00 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 10:21:52 AM
Quote from: deiseach on July 24, 2012, 10:20:44 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 10:18:06 AM
Have you paid it yet? I bet you have cos you are such a patriotic Irish man who wouldnt put a foot wrong.

You say it like it's an insult.

You havent answered my question or any of my points. What do you think of Bono?

You ask a lot of "when did you stop beating your wife" questions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 10:30:34 AM
Quote from: deiseach on July 24, 2012, 10:26:00 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 10:21:52 AM
Quote from: deiseach on July 24, 2012, 10:20:44 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 24, 2012, 10:18:06 AM
Have you paid it yet? I bet you have cos you are such a patriotic Irish man who wouldnt put a foot wrong.

You say it like it's an insult.

You havent answered my question or any of my points. What do you think of Bono?

You ask a lot of "when did you stop beating your wife" questions.

You dont like answering them... I dont like beating around the bush.  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 24, 2012, 11:52:49 AM
Former Anglo Irish Bank chairman and chief executive Seán Fitzpatrick has been charged with 16 offences as part of an ongoing investigation into alleged fraud at the bank.

Mr Fitzpatrick was arrested at 5.35am at Dublin Airport after arriving on a flight and was taken to Bridewell Garda Station.

He later appeared at Dublin District Court to face the multiple charges.

Officers from the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation and the Director of Corporate Enforcement, who are in charge of the investigation, are also due before a Presiding Judge at the Commercial Court this morning to report progress in the investigation.

Yesterday, two former senior executives at Anglo Irish Bank were charged as part of the Garda investigation.

Former finance director Willie McAteer and former managing director for Ireland Patrick Whelan were both charged with 16 offences under the Companies Act.

They are accused of permitting Anglo Irish Bank to give financial assistance to Patricia Quinn, her five children and ten senior clients of the bank, who became known as the 'Maple Ten', to enable the 16 to buy shares in the bank.

Both men were remanded on bail to appear again in Dublin District Court on 8 October for service of the book of evidence.

The joint investigation into alleged irregularities at Anglo Irish Bank has been ongoing for the past three-and-a-half years.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Good to see the poor down trodden Quinns getting the support of Teemore Shamrocks Co Fermanagh. Why does a GAA club feel the need to release a statement commenting on matters of the courts and judicial system?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Good to see the poor down trodden Quinns getting the support of Teemore Shamrocks Co Fermanagh. Why does a GAA club feel the need to release a statement commenting on matters of the courts and judicial system?

Some people just like to show their support and loyalty to people who have sponsored and supported them over many years.You got a problem with that?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on July 25, 2012, 01:24:15 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Good to see the poor down trodden Quinns getting the support of Teemore Shamrocks Co Fermanagh. Why does a GAA club feel the need to release a statement commenting on matters of the courts and judicial system?

They are commenting on the sentencing to jail of two of their club members. ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:36:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Good to see the poor down trodden Quinns getting the support of Teemore Shamrocks Co Fermanagh. Why does a GAA club feel the need to release a statement commenting on matters of the courts and judicial system?

Some people just like to show their support and loyalty to people who have sponsored and supported them over many years.You got a problem with that?

Yeah I do actually, they were deemed to have done wrong in the eyes of the court and judicial system and are serving a jail term for that. I dont see it gives the club any right to issue statements in support of them. If they had broken the law of the land in a more serious way, would the club be out supporting them, dont think so. Therefore I find it in bad taste that they issued a statement at all.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:36:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Good to see the poor down trodden Quinns getting the support of Teemore Shamrocks Co Fermanagh. Why does a GAA club feel the need to release a statement commenting on matters of the courts and judicial system?

Some people just like to show their support and loyalty to people who have sponsored and supported them over many years.You got a problem with that?

Yeah I do actually, they were deemed to have done wrong in the eyes of the court and judicial system and are serving a jail term for that. I dont see it gives the club any right to issue statements in support of them. If they had broken the law of the land in a more serious way, would the club be out supporting them, dont think so. Therefore I find it in bad taste that they issued a statement at all.

Its still all being heavily disputed at the moment so if the club feel the need to issue a statement of public support then fair play to Teemore, it may be deemed worse by many more folk if they didnt. What would be more serious, like if they killed someone or something? Ya Goon!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:54:25 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:36:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Good to see the poor down trodden Quinns getting the support of Teemore Shamrocks Co Fermanagh. Why does a GAA club feel the need to release a statement commenting on matters of the courts and judicial system?

Some people just like to show their support and loyalty to people who have sponsored and supported them over many years.You got a problem with that?

Yeah I do actually, they were deemed to have done wrong in the eyes of the court and judicial system and are serving a jail term for that. I dont see it gives the club any right to issue statements in support of them. If they had broken the law of the land in a more serious way, would the club be out supporting them, dont think so. Therefore I find it in bad taste that they issued a statement at all.

Well I just hope none of the people in your life who have helped you in any way ever need your support if they do something wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:54:25 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:36:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Good to see the poor down trodden Quinns getting the support of Teemore Shamrocks Co Fermanagh. Why does a GAA club feel the need to release a statement commenting on matters of the courts and judicial system?

Some people just like to show their support and loyalty to people who have sponsored and supported them over many years.You got a problem with that?


Yeah I do actually, they were deemed to have done wrong in the eyes of the court and judicial system and are serving a jail term for that. I dont see it gives the club any right to issue statements in support of them. If they had broken the law of the land in a more serious way, would the club be out supporting them, dont think so. Therefore I find it in bad taste that they issued a statement at all.

Well I just hope none of the people in your life who have helped you in any way ever need your support if they do something wrong.

Sammy Im not a Gaa Club. I can support who ever in my life that I like but I dont see it as the role of any club to come out in support of anyone who breaks the law. I would have no problem with the club members and club officials being supportive of the Quinns, my issue is that there was no need to be releasing statements.
They do not own the club they are mere custodians after all.

PS If you set the precedent of backing club members with public statements after they have broken the law where do you stop? Fraud, theft, assault? you tell me
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 25, 2012, 02:01:16 PM
In fairness, the club are defending a friend of theirs. I'm reminded of why Harry Truman said he went to the funeral of the deeply-corrupt Tom Pendergast - "He was always my friend and I have always been his"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 02:02:16 PM
Desieach - again in a personal way, not as anything else.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 25, 2012, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 02:02:16 PM
Desieach - again in a personal way, not as anything else.

I know what you're saying, but I'd imagine (without any evidence, I'll admit) that this stance would be popular within the club. Would you suggest that a club should never come out in defence of crooks? Ever?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 02:12:41 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:54:25 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:36:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Good to see the poor down trodden Quinns getting the support of Teemore Shamrocks Co Fermanagh. Why does a GAA club feel the need to release a statement commenting on matters of the courts and judicial system?

Some people just like to show their support and loyalty to people who have sponsored and supported them over many years.You got a problem with that?


Yeah I do actually, they were deemed to have done wrong in the eyes of the court and judicial system and are serving a jail term for that. I dont see it gives the club any right to issue statements in support of them. If they had broken the law of the land in a more serious way, would the club be out supporting them, dont think so. Therefore I find it in bad taste that they issued a statement at all.

Well I just hope none of the people in your life who have helped you in any way ever need your support if they do something wrong.

Sammy Im not a Gaa Club. I can support who ever in my life that I like but I dont see it as the role of any club to come out in support of anyone who breaks the law. I would have no problem with the club members and club officials being supportive of the Quinns, my issue is that there was no need to be releasing statements.
The do not own the club they are mere custodians after all.

PS If you set the precedent of backing club members with public statements after they have broken the law where do you stop? Fraud, theft, assault? you tell me

Thing is SQ gave a lot to the club. Not to individuals within the club. He invested money and time into the club and I'm sure they are just showing support to him considering the controversial treatmeant the Quinns have received.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 02:12:41 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:54:25 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:36:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Good to see the poor down trodden Quinns getting the support of Teemore Shamrocks Co Fermanagh. Why does a GAA club feel the need to release a statement commenting on matters of the courts and judicial system?

Some people just like to show their support and loyalty to people who have sponsored and supported them over many years.You got a problem with that?


Yeah I do actually, they were deemed to have done wrong in the eyes of the court and judicial system and are serving a jail term for that. I dont see it gives the club any right to issue statements in support of them. If they had broken the law of the land in a more serious way, would the club be out supporting them, dont think so. Therefore I find it in bad taste that they issued a statement at all.

Well I just hope none of the people in your life who have helped you in any way ever need your support if they do something wrong.

Sammy Im not a Gaa Club. I can support who ever in my life that I like but I dont see it as the role of any club to come out in support of anyone who breaks the law. I would have no problem with the club members and club officials being supportive of the Quinns, my issue is that there was no need to be releasing statements.
The do not own the club they are mere custodians after all.

PS If you set the precedent of backing club members with public statements after they have broken the law where do you stop? Fraud, theft, assault? you tell me

Thing is SQ gave a lot to the club. Not to individuals within the club. He invested money and time into the club and I'm sure they are just showing support to him considering the controversial treatmeant the Quinns have received.

Yeah but the thing is no one knows the extent of what the Quinn's have done or not done. I totally get that they gave money to the club no questions there, my point is simply that I don't feel that it is appropriate for a club to be releasing a public statement in support of people who have broken the law. (In the eyes of the state)

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 02:18:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 02:12:41 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:54:25 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:36:24 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Good to see the poor down trodden Quinns getting the support of Teemore Shamrocks Co Fermanagh. Why does a GAA club feel the need to release a statement commenting on matters of the courts and judicial system?

Some people just like to show their support and loyalty to people who have sponsored and supported them over many years.You got a problem with that?


Yeah I do actually, they were deemed to have done wrong in the eyes of the court and judicial system and are serving a jail term for that. I dont see it gives the club any right to issue statements in support of them. If they had broken the law of the land in a more serious way, would the club be out supporting them, dont think so. Therefore I find it in bad taste that they issued a statement at all.

Well I just hope none of the people in your life who have helped you in any way ever need your support if they do something wrong.

Sammy Im not a Gaa Club. I can support who ever in my life that I like but I dont see it as the role of any club to come out in support of anyone who breaks the law. I would have no problem with the club members and club officials being supportive of the Quinns, my issue is that there was no need to be releasing statements.
The do not own the club they are mere custodians after all.

PS If you set the precedent of backing club members with public statements after they have broken the law where do you stop? Fraud, theft, assault? you tell me

Thing is SQ gave a lot to the club. Not to individuals within the club. He invested money and time into the club and I'm sure they are just showing support to him considering the controversial treatmeant the Quinns have received.

Yeah but the thing is no one knows the extent of what the Quinn's have done or not done. I totally get that they gave money to the club no questions there, my point is simply that I don't feel that it is appropriate for a club to be releasing a public statement in support of people who have broken the law. (In the eyes of the state)

a state that was run by corrupt politicians for years who the GAA wined and dined and still do,ffs wise up your making a complete tool of yourself
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 02:29:34 PM
They haven't broken the law. They have broken civil orders. There's no criminal charges against them, unlike the bankers who are enforcing the loans. To be honest I would have been more surprised had Teemore not made a comment.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 25, 2012, 02:35:56 PM
Quote from: glens abu on July 25, 2012, 02:22:24 PM
a state that was run by corrupt politicians for years who the GAA wined and dined and still do,ffs wise up your making a complete tool of yourself

No, he isn't
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 02:37:04 PM
By taking the stance that a Club shouldnt be publicly supporting criminals (civil as it may be at the moment) more a principal thing? no matter how much money they gave to their local club?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 25, 2012, 02:42:41 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 02:37:04 PM
By taking the stance that a Club shouldnt be publicly supporting criminals (civil as it may be at the moment) more a principal thing? no matter how much money they gave to their local club?

In short, no. Asking a club to basically spurn friendships it has established over a long period of time is too tough an ask. I think we'd have to agree to differ on this one.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 02:52:58 PM
Im happy to do so, believe me I am no fan of the banks politicians or anyone who left our country in the state that it is in. Non are whiter than white in this whole debacle.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 03:07:35 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on July 25, 2012, 02:37:04 PM
By taking the stance that a Club shouldnt be publicly supporting criminals (civil as it may be at the moment) more a principal thing? no matter how much money they gave to their local club?

I'd have to agree with deiseach. I can't see many clubs ignoring a member being victamised (In their eyes) regardless of whether they have a criminal or civil offence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 25, 2012, 03:16:53 PM
Teemore club is made up of local men and women. The Quinns were and have been a big part of the club.

From talking to people in that area, any sympathy generated by this situation falls on the side of the Quinns and it is generally felt that Sean Quinn and his family are being shafted.

They are as a club lending their support on this local issue.

No different to other GAA clubs historically coming out and lending their support to whatever cause they feel is appropriate. Some have been controversial.

Teemore are on the side of the Quinns. No big deal really. That's their perogative.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on July 25, 2012, 03:41:04 PM
Was watching Vincent Brown last night and a contributor raised an interesting question. 

Anglo are going after the Quinn's for 2.8 Bn. Their assets have been taken away from them e.g. Hotels, Pubs, companies etc and the value of these assets are greater than 2.8 Bn.  Does that make any dent in their liabilities?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 03:49:27 PM
Watched V Brown last night myself to see what was to be said. And have to say I thought the two woman, while meaning well weren't really at the races when it came to debating. Was kinda cringing through parts of it. I'm surprised they couldn't get someone with a bit more about them to speak.

There was a few points raised which don't add up but is would seem Anglo aren't being held to question on any of it and seem to be getting a free reign on asset recovery whether legal or not.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 25, 2012, 04:07:11 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on July 25, 2012, 03:41:04 PM
Anglo are going after the Quinn's for 2.8 Bn. Their assets have been taken away from them e.g. Hotels, Pubs, companies etc and the value of these assets are greater than 2.8 Bn.  Does that make any dent in their liabilities?

I presume this contributor had some evidence for their assertion that the assets that have already been removed from Seán Quinn's possession have a sale value of greater than €2.8 billion. I'd be interested to see this evidence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 04:14:27 PM
The point being that we are still hearing about this 2.8 Billion dept that SQ has left behind, which is obviously untrue. I have to be honest and say that I know little about the value of the hotels, pubs, cement etc. But the Glass was valued at between £4-500 Million (including both plants).
So why aren't Anglo being forced to show what everything they have recovered is valued at? This was one of the main points the Quinns raised after the takeover and we're still waiting on an answer.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyronefan on July 25, 2012, 04:35:13 PM
Why is it obviously untrue. It seems that there some dispute over the amount owed and it is far from obviously what is owed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 04:43:12 PM
Well it's Anglo that are saying 2.8 Billion ( I would imagine they would be quoting the highest possible amount). But there's dispute over whether 2.3B of that is illegal loans or not according to the Quinns (And now the courts).

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on July 25, 2012, 05:24:45 PM
I can understand why Teemore GAA members might feel like this, although just reading the statement - this sentence stood out:
We must ask the question, why have members of the Quinn Family being sentenced to jail for investing in a Bank?
Do they not understand what the sentence is for? It's not for investing in a bank.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 25, 2012, 05:24:45 PM
I can understand why Teemore GAA members might feel like this, although just reading the statement - this sentence stood out:
We must ask the question, why have members of the Quinn Family being sentenced to jail for investing in a Bank?
Do they not understand what the sentence is for? It's not for investing in a bank.

I think that's the club justifying their statement, stripping it down to the bare bones, almost child like and there for effect only, like why are they punishing an innocent man?

Everyone knows its contentious and Quinn is not snow white either, but I think it would be accepted by all, the authorities dealt with this whole saga in a very poor fashion.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on July 25, 2012, 05:39:28 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 25, 2012, 05:24:45 PM
I can understand why Teemore GAA members might feel like this, although just reading the statement - this sentence stood out:
We must ask the question, why have members of the Quinn Family being sentenced to jail for investing in a Bank?
Do they not understand what the sentence is for? It's not for investing in a bank.

I think that's the club justifying their statement, stripping it down to the bare bones, almost child like and there for effect only, like why are they punishing an innocent man?


Everyone knows its contentious and Quinn is not snow white either, but I think it would be accepted by all, the authorities dealt with this whole saga in a very poor fashion.
Do you realise how stupid that makes them look?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
QuoteI think that's the club justifying their statement, stripping it down to the bare bones, almost child like and there for effect only, like why are they punishing an innocent man?

Quinn is not innocent. He borrowed money, he hasn't paid it back, he has concealed resources that could have been used to pay it back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 06:09:48 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
QuoteI think that's the club justifying their statement, stripping it down to the bare bones, almost child like and there for effect only, like why are they punishing an innocent man?

Quinn is not innocent. He borrowed money, he hasn't paid it back, he has concealed resources that could have been used to pay it back.

I think we all know its complicated.

Some people may feel these points are irrelevant, but they are not.

Did the Quinn family have a history of brushes with the law or authorities in any shapre or fashion prior to c2008?? Did they pay their taxes in full? Did they employ thousands of people, not only in the border counties but throughout the whole of Ireland? Did they ever pump any money into Fianna Fail or Fianna Gael? Did they ever fcuk anyone over??

You think its a good idea for the Quinn family to hand over everything now and then potentially end up being proved right (slim I know) and expect to get everything back again? Why the fcuk should he gave what he owns to a body that has shafted him, regardless of the fact it was private then and is public now? The family initially attempted to put right what had gone wrong, made legitimate proposals and they got 2 fingers and were told to hand everything over. I think they are now fed up of taking it up the arse from the IBRC and now want resolution on many matters before they comply with every demand. And right they are too.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 25, 2012, 07:04:16 PM

A judge in Dublin has said the Quinn family had operated a scheme of mesmeric complexity which "reeked of dishonesty and sharp practice".

Commercial Court Judge Peter Kelly extended orders freezing the assets of the children of Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn.

He also did so for two of his sons-in-law Stephen Kelly and Niall McPartland.

The Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), formerly Anglo Irish Bank, had been seeking the freezing orders.

It also wants to appoint receivers to their assets. The bank has taken the case over 2.8bn euros in loans it says are owed by the Quinns.

Mr Justice Kelly said he regrettably had to deal more and more often with fraud on a national and international level as well as sharp practice, dishonesty and chicanery.

But he said he had never seen such conduct on the scale demonstrated by Mr Quinn and his family or the deviousness with which the scheme to put assets beyond the reach of the IBRC had operated.

The judge also appointed receivers to the Quinn children's assets and those of Mr Kelly and Mr McPartland with the exception of certain bank accounts, some future earnings and family homes.

He granted disclosure orders sought against them, Sean Quinn Snr and a number of companies.

The judge also froze the assets of Sean Quinn Jnr's wife, Karen Woods, who the court heard has received more than 320,000 euros from Russian companies since April last year.

He will hear applications by the Quinn children for living expenses as well as an application by lawyers for Peter Darragh Quinn to be allowed to stop representing him, next Tuesday.

The Quinn children had each been previously granted living expenses of 2,000 euros a week.

Earlier, senior counsel for the IBRC Paul Gallagher said the bank was still concerned that it did not know what had happened to 2.8m euros paid to members of the Quinn family and their partners by Russian companies since April last year.

The Quinns' senior counsel, Bill Shipsey, said his clients were consenting to very extensive disclosure orders and they would have to disclose all their assets and accounts.

Mr Quinn avoided jail for contempt of court last Friday, but was told he must co-operate within three months with the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly Anglo Irish Bank.

His son, Sean Jnr, and Peter Darragh Quinn were sentenced to prison.

Sean Quinn Jnr began his sentence immediately and will serve out the remainder in the training unit of Mountjoy prison, a semi-open low security facility.

A warrant was issued for Peter Darragh Quinn's arrest after he failed to appear for sentencing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 25, 2012, 07:07:56 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 06:09:48 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
QuoteI think that's the club justifying their statement, stripping it down to the bare bones, almost child like and there for effect only, like why are they punishing an innocent man?

Quinn is not innocent. He borrowed money, he hasn't paid it back, he has concealed resources that could have been used to pay it back.

I think we all know its complicated.

Some people may feel these points are irrelevant, but they are not.

Did the Quinn family have a history of brushes with the law or authorities in any shapre or fashion prior to c2008?? Did they pay their taxes in full? Did they employ thousands of people, not only in the border counties but throughout the whole of Ireland? Did they ever pump any money into Fianna Fail or Fianna Gael? Did they ever fcuk anyone over??

You think its a good idea for the Quinn family to hand over everything now and then potentially end up being proved right (slim I know) and expect to get everything back again? Why the fcuk should he gave what he owns to a body that has shafted him, regardless of the fact it was private then and is public now? The family initially attempted to put right what had gone wrong, made legitimate proposals and they got 2 fingers and were told to hand everything over. I think they are now fed up of taking it up the arse from the IBRC and now want resolution on many matters before they comply with every demand. And right they are too.
Getting a bit sick of people using the fact Sean Quinn employed people in the border area as a reason why he shouldnt be pursued. Pimps and drug dealers are employers, should we worry about the economic impact of locking them up too?
Title: Teaghlach
Post by: drici on July 25, 2012, 07:19:49 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 25, 2012, 07:04:16 PM


Commercial Court Judge Peter Kelly extended orders freezing the assets of the children of Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn.

He also did so for two of his sons-in-law Stephen Kelly and Niall McPartland.


Peter Kelly's daughters must have been complaining to their Da about the husbands.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 07:22:02 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 25, 2012, 07:07:56 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 06:09:48 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
QuoteI think that's the club justifying their statement, stripping it down to the bare bones, almost child like and there for effect only, like why are they punishing an innocent man?

Quinn is not innocent. He borrowed money, he hasn't paid it back, he has concealed resources that could have been used to pay it back.

I think we all know its complicated.

Some people may feel these points are irrelevant, but they are not.

Did the Quinn family have a history of brushes with the law or authorities in any shapre or fashion prior to c2008?? Did they pay their taxes in full? Did they employ thousands of people, not only in the border counties but throughout the whole of Ireland? Did they ever pump any money into Fianna Fail or Fianna Gael? Did they ever fcuk anyone over??

You think its a good idea for the Quinn family to hand over everything now and then potentially end up being proved right (slim I know) and expect to get everything back again? Why the fcuk should he gave what he owns to a body that has shafted him, regardless of the fact it was private then and is public now? The family initially attempted to put right what had gone wrong, made legitimate proposals and they got 2 fingers and were told to hand everything over. I think they are now fed up of taking it up the arse from the IBRC and now want resolution on many matters before they comply with every demand. And right they are too.
Getting a bit sick of people using the fact Sean Quinn employed people in the border area as a reason why he shouldnt be pursued. Pimps and drug dealers are employers, should we worry about the economic impact of locking them up too?

I know. It's equally annoying hearing that SQ owes 2.8Billion when he doesn't.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 07:22:31 PM
What taxes do pimps pay Tony? Nonsense point. Desperate times call for desperate measures...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 25, 2012, 07:26:02 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 07:22:31 PM
What taxes do pimps pay Tony? Nonsense point. Desperate times call for desperate measures...
So employers that pay tax are above the law? Good man for clearing that up.  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 07:28:48 PM
Tony you're kinda ignoring all the other points as to why the loans shouldn't be enforced. And it's got nothing to do with the jobs SQ created.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 25, 2012, 07:32:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 07:28:48 PM
Tony you're kinda ignoring all the other points as to why the loans shouldn't be enforced. And it's got nothing to do with the jobs SQ created.
You're right, I am ignoring those points. I am interested in why nearly everyone defending him thinks employing 100s of people has anything to do with the charges against him. I have no doubt he is in some way beimg scapegoated but he is not without sin either.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 07:34:15 PM
Well at least you admit you are ignoring all the other points. There's others here doing the same but wouldn't be so open about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyronefan on July 25, 2012, 07:43:07 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 07:22:02 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 25, 2012, 07:07:56 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 06:09:48 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
QuoteI think that's the club justifying their statement, stripping it down to the bare bones, almost child like and there for effect only, like why are they punishing an innocent man?

Quinn is not innocent. He borrowed money, he hasn't paid it back, he has concealed resources that could have been used to pay it back.

I think we all know its complicated.

Some people may feel these points are irrelevant, but they are not.

Did the Quinn family have a history of brushes with the law or authorities in any shapre or fashion prior to c2008?? Did they pay their taxes in full? Did they employ thousands of people, not only in the border counties but throughout the whole of Ireland? Did they ever pump any money into Fianna Fail or Fianna Gael? Did they ever fcuk anyone over??

You think its a good idea for the Quinn family to hand over everything now and then potentially end up being proved right (slim I know) and expect to get everything back again? Why the fcuk should he gave what he owns to a body that has shafted him, regardless of the fact it was private then and is public now? The family initially attempted to put right what had gone wrong, made legitimate proposals and they got 2 fingers and were told to hand everything over. I think they are now fed up of taking it up the arse from the IBRC and now want resolution on many matters before they comply with every demand. And right they are too.
Getting a bit sick of people using the fact Sean Quinn employed people in the border area as a reason why he shouldnt be pursued. Pimps and drug dealers are employers, should we worry about the economic impact of locking them up too?

I know. It's equally annoying hearing that SQ owes 2.8Billion when he doesn't.

How do you know how much he owes???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 07:44:23 PM
I answered you earlier.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyronefan on July 25, 2012, 07:53:57 PM
actually you didnt. You just agreed with me that the amount owed is in dispute 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 07:57:43 PM
But I pointed out the top line is 2.8 Billion as stated by Anglo. I agree that the actual figure is in dispute. It's a lot less now I would imagine considering the assets that have been recovered. And that's before taking into account whether the loans are illegal or not.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 08:43:54 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 25, 2012, 07:26:02 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 07:22:31 PM
What taxes do pimps pay Tony? Nonsense point. Desperate times call for desperate measures...
So employers that pay tax are above the law? Good man for clearing that up.  ::)

That's right Tony, you pay your taxes, you get a free rein to do as ya wish, sure your from Armagh so you'd know all that anyway!  :P

I don't know how a man who created so much enterprise and prosperity and was such a success story for so many years can suddenly become public enemy no.1! Yes he got greedy, he can admit that but there are some dark forces at work amongst it all. (that last part had a point but was tongue in cheek)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 25, 2012, 09:00:41 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 08:43:54 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 25, 2012, 07:26:02 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 07:22:31 PM
What taxes do pimps pay Tony? Nonsense point. Desperate times call for desperate measures...
So employers that pay tax are above the law? Good man for clearing that up.  ::)

That's right Tony, you pay your taxes, you get a free rein to do as ya wish, sure your from Armagh so you'd know all that anyway!  :P

I don't know how a man who created so much enterprise and prosperity and was such a success story for so many years can suddenly become public enemy no.1! Yes he got greedy, he can admit that but there are some dark forces at work amongst it all. (that last part had a point but was tongue in cheek)
I have never, repeat never, been caught smuggling diesel  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 09:04:43 PM
QuoteI don't know how a man who created so much enterprise and prosperity and was such a success story for so many years can suddenly become public enemy no.1!

Because he and his tribe have been lying and cheating. If he simply took his medicine, decent people would still have enormous respect for him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 09:18:04 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 09:04:43 PM
QuoteI don't know how a man who created so much enterprise and prosperity and was such a success story for so many years can suddenly become public enemy no.1!

Because he and his tribe have been lying and cheating. If he simply took his medicine, decent people would still have enormous respect for him.

As I said, they obviously got sick taking it up the arse so decided that desperate times called for desperate measures. About time too.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 09:20:26 PM
QuoteAs I said, they obviously got sick taking it up the arse so decided that desperate times called for desperate measures.

So it is OK to lie and cheat if you don't feel like paying back your loan?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 25, 2012, 09:26:06 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 09:04:43 PM
QuoteI don't know how a man who created so much enterprise and prosperity and was such a success story for so many years can suddenly become public enemy no.1!

Because he and his tribe have been lying and cheating. If he simply took his medicine, decent people would still have enormous respect for him.

If you're being fed your medicine by Dr Shipman I'd like to think you'd question it. A lot of decent people still have respect for him, all the more for standing up to being shafted by Anglo and the state.

It's ok not to pay back you're loan if the loan was illegal.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 25, 2012, 10:10:38 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 09:20:26 PM
QuoteAs I said, they obviously got sick taking it up the arse so decided that desperate times called for desperate measures.

So it is OK to lie and cheat if you don't feel like paying back your loan?

Bankruptcy courts are full to the throat of people taking the "easy" option of going bankrupt before having played the game of putting assets beyond reach and starting again.

There's plenty more people doing what the Quinns have done.

Sean Quinn has said he'll pay back what he woes - i.e the €450m approx. The Quinn family have no issue with that. They do have an issue with the other €2.3bn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on July 25, 2012, 10:14:22 PM
Have you ever sought to pay less tax than you ought to have, or sought to benefit by screwing the taxman? Say for e.g. by paying cash so as to avoid having to pay the VAT? Or If the bailiffs were coming to your house because you fell behind on payments, would you hide your tv?

If you can answer no to both the above questions, you're in a rare position. If you would have to say yes, its rich to be crowing about someone else doing the same. And scale is no excuse.

Quinn never borrowed from the taxpayer. The taxpayer was involved because the government made it so - and just because the taxpayer now is involved, doesnt mean sight should be lost of the original transactions, between a bank which it is accepted was completely corrupt, and a businessman who got caught up in it. If it wasnt the taxpayers bank, would as many be outraged at quinn not repaying?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 10:19:07 PM
Do you understand what's actually going on armaghniac? Would you pay 50k for a Renault that wouldnt pass an MOT if you actually thought you were buying a Merc?? And it was the Renauk garage who financed it for you?

Would you pay £1 for an own brand (that was off) if you thought you were getting a Premium label, and you borrowed the money from Tesco to actually own it.

Now your job is gone too cos you were late for work by the way, so we actually want everything you have even though you may have wanted to pay us.

Are you gonna hand over all the cash you have under your mattress?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 11:01:03 PM
QuoteQuinn never borrowed from the taxpayer. The taxpayer was involved because the government made it so

Bollix. The government guarantees deposits in banks. If billionaires are allowed feck off without repaying loans then the guy who is saving for his wedding or a new car will lose his money.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 11:09:07 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 11:01:03 PM
QuoteQuinn never borrowed from the taxpayer. The taxpayer was involved because the government made it so

Bollix. The government guarantees deposits in banks. If billionaires are allowed feck off without repaying loans then the guy who is saving for his wedding or a new car will lose his money.

Struth! Is that the best you can come up with? The government are right, regardless, so Quinn has to be in the wrong. Good night.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 11:13:17 PM
QuoteStruth! Is that the best you can come up with? The government are right, regardless,

People who do not repay loans are ultimately attempting to cheat depositors in banks. The government are acting to stop this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 25, 2012, 11:36:39 PM
What has happened this week is very significant. Executives of this former corrupt bank have been charged with criminal offences relating to the way the bank supported the purchase of it's own shares.

No wonder that Anglo wouldn't cut a deal with Sean Quinn.

They were out to shaft him and make him look like the only criminal in the whole shebang.

Thankfully Seanie Fitz et al will be held accountable but the pity for Sean Quinn is that it will be too late for him and these lads will lie through their teeth to keep Quinn looking like the baddie.

I can't ever see the whole truth coming out here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 26, 2012, 08:39:21 AM
Are the Courts looking to freeze or seize assets?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: glens abu on July 26, 2012, 08:41:32 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 09:04:43 PM
QuoteI don't know how a man who created so much enterprise and prosperity and was such a success story for so many years can suddenly become public enemy no.1!

Because he and his tribe have been lying and cheating. If he simply took his medicine, decent people would still have enormous respect for him.


Many decent people do have enormous respect for him,its not only you and people of your ilk who are decent. ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 26, 2012, 08:51:01 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 25, 2012, 11:13:17 PM
QuoteStruth! Is that the best you can come up with? The government are right, regardless,

People who do not repay loans are ultimately attempting to cheat depositors in banks. The government are acting to stop this.

If a bank lent money illegally to support it's share price, then tried to get retrospective security on these loans when they  realised the Sh!te they were in, then  they are in no position to try and inforce these loans. And the fact that the state is allowing it to happen is worse.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 26, 2012, 09:01:00 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 26, 2012, 08:39:21 AM
Are the Courts looking to freeze or seize assets?
I think they are freezing the assets and accounts at the minute. But I think it's just a prelude to seizing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 09:15:02 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 10:19:07 PM
Do you understand what's actually going on armaghniac? Would you pay 50k for a Renault that wouldnt pass an MOT if you actually thought you were buying a Merc?? And it was the Renault garage who financed it for you?

Would you pay £1 for an own brand (that was off) if you thought you were getting a Premium label, and you borrowed the money from Tesco to actually own it.

Now your job is gone too cos you were late for work by the way, so we actually want everything you have even though you may have wanted to pay us.

Are you gonna hand over all the cash you have under your mattress?

I'd love to hear what armaghniac, deiseach or any other detractors would do in this situation?? feel free to respond any time you think of any sort of appropriate response... The Quinn Empire paid over £1bn in taxes to the Irish Exchequer and they have basically wanted to take it over once things started going tits up. When everything wasn't squeaky clean with the figures, they went for the jugular! Ever since then, its been a witch hunt after everything they have. If this kind of thing happened in Zimbabwe the UN would be up in arms  :o  :P

As for Peter "Darragh" Quinn... Hopefully the fella is ok, as I dont think there are too many who know of his whereabouts but going on the run is certainly not the thing to do. Stand up and face the music.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: glens abu on July 26, 2012, 10:19:13 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 09:15:02 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 10:19:07 PM
Do you understand what's actually going on armaghniac? Would you pay 50k for a Renault that wouldnt pass an MOT if you actually thought you were buying a Merc?? And it was the Renault garage who financed it for you?

Would you pay £1 for an own brand (that was off) if you thought you were getting a Premium label, and you borrowed the money from Tesco to actually own it.

Now your job is gone too cos you were late for work by the way, so we actually want everything you have even though you may have wanted to pay us.

Are you gonna hand over all the cash you have under your mattress?

I'd love to hear what armaghniac, deiseach or any other detractors would do in this situation?? feel free to respond any time you think of any sort of appropriate response... The Quinn Empire paid over £1bn in taxes to the Irish Exchequer and they have basically wanted to take it over once things started going tits up. When everything wasn't squeaky clean with the figures, they went for the jugular! Ever since then, its been a witch hunt after everything they have. If this kind of thing happened in Zimbabwe the UN would be up in arms  :o  :P

As for Peter "Darragh" Quinn... Hopefully the fella is ok, as I dont think there are too many who know of his whereabouts but going on the run is certainly not the thing to do. Stand up and face the music.

Many a good man has went on the run,and lived to FIGHT another day ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 26, 2012, 10:22:50 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 09:15:02 AM
If this kind of thing happened in Zimbabwe the UN would be up in arms  :o  :P

Statements like this remind me of this maxim: never argue with a fool, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you on experience
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on July 26, 2012, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 09:15:02 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 25, 2012, 10:19:07 PM
Do you understand what's actually going on armaghniac? Would you pay 50k for a Renault that wouldnt pass an MOT if you actually thought you were buying a Merc?? And it was the Renault garage who financed it for you?

Would you pay £1 for an own brand (that was off) if you thought you were getting a Premium label, and you borrowed the money from Tesco to actually own it.

Now your job is gone too cos you were late for work by the way, so we actually want everything you have even though you may have wanted to pay us.

Are you gonna hand over all the cash you have under your mattress?

I'd love to hear what armaghniac, deiseach or any other detractors would do in this situation?? feel free to respond any time you think of any sort of appropriate response... The Quinn Empire paid over £1bn in taxes to the Irish Exchequer and they have basically wanted to take it over once things started going tits up. When everything wasn't squeaky clean with the figures, they went for the jugular! Ever since then, its been a witch hunt after everything they have. If this kind of thing happened in Zimbabwe the UN would be up in arms  :o  :P

As for Peter "Darragh" Quinn... Hopefully the fella is ok, as I dont think there are too many who know of his whereabouts but going on the run is certainly not the thing to do. Stand up and face the music.

Surely Sean Quinn has to take some kind of blame for the situation? 

He borrowed money from Anglo to buy more Anglo shares therefore increasing his ownership of the bank and pushing the value of his shares up, now I'm guessing he knew exactly what he was doing as he was the one borrowing the money and the one buying the shares. My knowledge of shares is limited but even I know that what he did there is not right at all. I would imagine he planned to sell them to make a tidy profit while also paying the loans back but the bubble burst before he could. Sean Fitz and others in Anglo would seem to be complicit in this is fine but surely they are both to blame?

Along with that the fact that he fcuked money around his different businesses as it suited him and ultimately messed up the insurance arm. Whether or not it was right for them to be pushed into Administration the bottom line is the rules are there for all Insurance companies, everyone has to abide by them and Quinn broke them AGAIN!

Just because he paid taxes and and created jobs doesn't mean he gets to play fast and loose with these things. It says a lot that deregulation has been the buzz word of the last 10-15 years yet Quinn managed to breach the regulations on 2 clear occasions.

This is all before we even get to the contempt issue. Did the Quinn's not say they would pay off the debt they owed yet now are all being held in contempt for putting assets beyond the reach of IBRC?

The whole thing is an awful mess and it seems pretty clear cut that Quinn has beenat the heart of the financial and moral bankruptcy that has gone on here. Of course it's sad for those who have lost their livelihoods but there are a number of people to blame for it and unfortunately Sean Quinn is one of them!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 10:40:19 AM
Quote from: deiseach on July 26, 2012, 10:22:50 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 09:15:02 AM
If this kind of thing happened in Zimbabwe the UN would be up in arms  :o  :P

Statements like this remind me of this maxim: never argue with a fool, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you on experience

what do you think was the funny eyes and tongue all about? get down of your pedestal you plank
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 11:16:17 AM
He borrowed money from Anglo (which was an ILLEGAL LOAN and Seanie Fitz and the boys knew that)  to buy more Anglo shares (thinking it was a good investment after the bullshit he was spun regarding the profitability and performance of a pungent bank) therefore increasing his ownership of the bank and pushing the value of his shares up, now I'm guessing he knew exactly what he was doing (mistake he made was he thought he was dealing with genuine honest, professional bankers) as he was the one borrowing the money and the one buying the shares. My knowledge of shares is limited but even I know that what he did there is not right at all. I would imagine he planned to sell them to make a tidy profit (I reckon he wanted to take ownership of the bank, Quinn got into insurance when they could insurance the lorries themselves, I am sure they thought owning a bank was going to be an avenue for more riches) while also paying the loans back but the bubble burst before he could. Sean Fitz and others in Anglo would seem to be complicit in this is fine but surely they are both to blame? (Quinn publicly accepted his decision to buy the shares and offered to pay back loans over 7 years, this was rejected by the Irish government)

Along with that the fact that he fcuked money around his different businesses as it suited him (yes he was juggling around the money within his Group of companies and this was the catalyst for the downfall which the authorities went to town on) and ultimately messed up the insurance arm (even though if had as much equity as most of the other insurers at the time). Whether or not it was right for them to be pushed into Administration the bottom line is the rules are there for all Insurance companies, everyone has to abide by them and Quinn broke them AGAIN!

Just because he paid taxes and created jobs doesn't mean he gets to play fast and loose with these things (He almost immediately stepped down as Director, and took the fines on the chin). It says a lot that deregulation has been the buzz word of the last 10-15 years yet Quinn managed to breach the regulations on 2 clear occasions.

This is all before we even get to the contempt issue. Did the Quinn's not say they would pay off the debt they owed yet (Yes but the tools and ability to do this through the companies they own were taken off them, so how in the name of fcuk are they actually supposed to do it now?) now are all being held in contempt for putting assets beyond the reach of IBRC? (They have obviously reached the point of being fed up with being taken to the cleaners and getting totally wiped out)

The whole thing is an awful mess and it seems pretty clear cut that Quinn has been at the heart of the financial and moral bankruptcy (yes, Quinn has been the fall guy as he was fed a crock of shite and was sold down the river by the bankers. The Irish government stepped in as they wanted to protect the depositors, but have now spent millions chasing Quinns' fortunes to ease the financial burden, regardless of the fact the loans are in dispute) that has gone on here. Of course it's sad for those who have lost their livelihoods but there are a number of people to blame for it and unfortunately Sean Quinn is one of them! (What exactly has Quinn done wrong in relation to Anglo again?? Yes there were trading issues at QI but this didn't mean they had to pull the pin completely on them)

Would you reckon, IF the goverment had have given these guys a little bit more grace in getting their act together, they would have put everything right to everyone's sataisfaction in a given period, rather than how things have panned out as they are now?? The billions of euro that Anglo lost was not the fault of Sean Quinn, he was sold a dummy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 26, 2012, 11:20:06 AM
Of course SQ will have to take some responsibility for his actions. and I've no doubt that is coming down the line as well. But there's a few factors that people here aren't dealing with.

1) He made an investment into a Financial organisation, who was regulated by the Financial regulator at the time, who were cooking their books to make the health of the bank look siqnificantly better than it was in reality. Does SQ not deserve some recourse against the bank and the regulator for this? At the end of the day had he known the real state the bank was in he would never have gotten to the level he was at.

2) SQ took his gamble on CFDs and lost everything he had. And I have no doubt that he would have been bankrupted because of it. But his family would still have control of the Group, and the company assets as they were all in the Kids names.  However he then took out the loans with Anglo to finance the CFDs. This is what lead us to where we are today. The Quinns are obviously saying Anglo were forcing them into it, personally I'd say SQ saw what he had lost already and when Anglo provided this option he took it on in the hope he could rescue some of it.  But as a regulated financial instution, Anglo should never have been providing that option And the fact that it looks increasly likely the state regulator at the time was also involved makes it worse. So considering this wrong doing how come Anglo are being allowed to enforce what are clearly illegal loans? And are being provided  complete coverage on this by the state.

Along with that the fact that he fcuked money around his different businesses as it suited him and ultimately messed up the insurance arm. Whether or not it was right for them to be pushed into Administration the bottom line is the rules are there for all Insurance companies, everyone has to abide by them and Quinn broke them AGAIN!



VHI- a lot less solvency than QIL but they didn't hit the nuclear switch on them. Infact their solvency still hasn't been sorted but were allowed to work towards getting it to the correct level.


This is all before we even get to the contempt issue. Did the Quinn's not say they would pay off the debt they owed yet now are all being held in contempt for putting assets beyond the reach of IBRC?



He said he would pay of the debt. The state and Anglo decided they could do things better and attempted a military style takeover. Considering Anglo made the decision not to work with the Quinns he has decided not to work with them. And the fact that Anglo thought they had everything boxed of before the take over and then realised they had made aballs of it is their own fault. Now the Quinns may have a legal recourse to get out of the loans. And if that is the case, then there's a whole lot to run on it yet 

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 26, 2012, 12:19:43 PM
The Supreme Court is to hear an appeal by Seán Quinn Jnr against the findings of contempt against him and his committal to prison in early October.

Both Séan Quinn Jnr and Snr are appealing the contempt findingsLawyers for the Quinns asked the court this morning to give priority to the appeal by Mr Quinn Jnr.

Mr Quinn was sent to prison for three months last Friday for breaching court orders preventing him from interfering with assets of the Quinn International Property Group.

The three-month term is due to end on 20 October.

However, if the court is not satisfied that action has been taken to comply with court orders and reverse asset stripping of the International Property Group, Mr Quinn could remain in prison indefinitely.

Senior Counsel Bill Shipsey argued that Mr Quinn Jnr's contempt was a "minor matter" as he was accused of breaching court orders only in relation to one of three matters the court had to consider.

But Senior Counsel Shane Murphy for the IBRC said the High Court had found the contempt to be of the most serious kind.

Chief Justice Mrs Justice Susan Denham said the court would give the appeal priority and would fix a date in early October.

Mr Shipsey said the team of lawyers acting for the Quinns would not be acting for Peter Darragh Quinn from next Tuesday when the Commercial Court will hear an application by them to come off record.


Peter Darragh Quinn has not been in touch with his lawyers since the early hours of last Friday morning.

Mr Shipsey said he did not turn up in court "to the surprise of everyone".

Seán Quinn Snr is also appealing the contempt findings and orders against him but lawyers are not seeking priority for his appeal.

Mr Shipsey said his son's appeal was urgent as he was in prison.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 26, 2012, 12:29:30 PM
Quotees SQ not deserve some recourse against the bank and the regulator for this? At the end of the day had he known the real state the bank was in he would never have gotten to the level he was at.

A lot of people were mislead by banks. The ordinary Joe has a stronger case as he cannot be expected to deal with banks on any sort of even level. SQ was operating at a level where he could have sought any amount of professional advice. By his own admission he didn't bother to seek any legal advice.


QuoteSo considering this wrong doing how come Anglo are being allowed to enforce what are clearly illegal loans?

I am not impressed by this illegal loan argument. What is the proposition here, that if the shares work out then you become mega rich, but that if they don't work out then the loan was illegal and you don't have to pay it back? A free bet, nice if you can get it. SQ knew perfectly well that the loan was suspect.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on July 26, 2012, 01:11:40 PM
"Illegal Loan" is a bit of a difficult term for me to swallow. What about the thousands who took out 100% mortgages, can they sue the banks coming after them for their assets because they really shouldn't have been lending them money they couldn' afford?

Sean Quinn is a serious guy and for him to play the "Oh I didn't know" card is not cutting it for me I'm sorry when there is that much money involved he's got a fair idea what he's getting himself involved in!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 26, 2012, 01:12:29 PM
The bank is under a legal obligation to provide SQ with legal representation.  Instead they actually seeked the Quinns to sign restospective legal documents trying to cover their own asses.

Whether you are impressed by the illegal loans arguement or not matters little. The fact is, it's given the Quinns an opportunity to contest the loans as illegally made loans can be deemed unenforcable. Call it a free bet if you wish. That's why the onus is on the financial instution to ensure all is correct and above board and if it isn't they can be taken to task on it much the same as mis-sold PPI has come back to bite banks on ass. And there's plenty of Joe soaps winning those cases. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 26, 2012, 01:17:45 PM
Quote from: screenexile on July 26, 2012, 01:11:40 PM
"Illegal Loan" is a bit of a difficult term for me to swallow. What about the thousands who took out 100% mortgages, can they sue the banks coming after them for their assets because they really shouldn't have been lending them money they couldn' afford?

Sean Quinn is a serious guy and for him to play the "Oh I didn't know" card is not cutting it for me I'm sorry when there is that much money involved he's got a fair idea what he's getting himself involved in!

You're analogy on the illegal loans is a bit of the mark. Quinns aren't contesting the loans because they were lent money they couldn't afford ( You'll find a right % of the 2.8B will be covered by the assets Anglo have taken). They are contesting them because the lender was using the loans to prop up it's own market share. And now you think that after doing that, they should still be allow to reap the benefits of the loans? I'll disagree  on that, but each to their own.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 26, 2012, 01:24:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 26, 2012, 01:17:45 PM
Quote from: screenexile on July 26, 2012, 01:11:40 PM
"Illegal Loan" is a bit of a difficult term for me to swallow. What about the thousands who took out 100% mortgages, can they sue the banks coming after them for their assets because they really shouldn't have been lending them money they couldn' afford?

Sean Quinn is a serious guy and for him to play the "Oh I didn't know" card is not cutting it for me I'm sorry when there is that much money involved he's got a fair idea what he's getting himself involved in!

You're analogy on the illegal loans is a bit of the mark. Quinns aren't contesting the loans because they were lent money they couldn't afford ( You'll find a right % of the 2.8B will be covered by the assets Anglo have taken). They are contesting them because the lender was using the loans to prop up it's own market share. And now you think that after doing that, they should still be allow to reap the benefits of the loans? I'll disagree  on that, but each to their own.

The analogy may have been closer if 100% mortgages were been given out to maintain the property bubble.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 26, 2012, 01:26:35 PM
Or if banks were giving out mortgages to customers so that they could re-invest them into shares in the bank and so increase the share prices. Then the analogy would have been spot on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 02:08:13 PM
Screenexile, think of it more in the lines of the car... would you be happy agreeing to a finance deal from a dealership for top of the range Merc and then end up with a clapped out Renault 25 or something? They knew that they were conning you cos there was no Merc. Would you say its a fair deal and still end up paying for it??

(http://www.benzworld.org/forums/attachments/r230-sl-class/211232d1229768676-sl550-redesign-merc_sl_2009_03_1.jpg)
(http://images04.olx.fr/ui/1/26/23/11012323_1.jpg)

You knew you wanted, and were getting a car and thats what you got chief!  Now pay up!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on July 26, 2012, 03:35:42 PM
You see that's a problem I have sammy! I don't think Sean Quinn buys a Merc or takes a loan out for however much money he did without evaluating it in the first place. He's way too clued in to try the 'I didn't know' line!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 26, 2012, 03:49:14 PM
When your looking to invest into a bank it would be based on the books (Provided and regulated by the Irish FR). These books were being cooked by anglo management during part of the Quinn Investments.
In addition to that , It's the bank who is regulated, It's the bank that has Inside Trading laws to abide by, It's the bank's priority to ensure that any loans will be legal and therefore duly enforceable. and you (And others here) want to ignore any irregularties on Anglo's side and yet drop like a tonne of bricks against Quinn. I don't understand how people are surprised that the Quinns find this unacceptable. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 04:46:56 PM
Quote from: screenexile on July 26, 2012, 03:35:42 PM
You see that's a problem I have sammy! I don't think Sean Quinn buys a Merc or takes a loan out for however much money he did without evaluating it in the first place. He's way too clued in to try the 'I didn't know' line!

When dealing with people who are in positions that the Anglo board were in, you dont expect to be shafted in the way Quinn got shafted. I am pretty sure he would have done his due diligence and felt it was a good investment, who would fear there were riskier places to put your money in than a bank (especially one that was performing the way Anglo had been performing)? it was a bit of a no-brainer!  :-\ What Quinn didn't know was the place was a putrid mess, thats why Fitzy and his chronies need to get hit hard for what they have done to the Irish taxpayer!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on July 26, 2012, 04:50:22 PM
Did Sean Quinn really buy these shares without knowing what he was really doing? I find it very strange that such a shrewd individual would have the wool pulled over his eyes to such an extent for an investment of this size. And surely Quinn's accountants knew that it was illegal to take out the loan from Anglo to buy its shares?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 26, 2012, 05:04:15 PM
QuoteI am pretty sure he would have done his due diligence and felt it was a good investment, who would fear there were riskier places to put your money in than a bank (especially one that was performing the way Anglo had been performing)? it was a bit of a no-brainer!

SQ said himself in the interview in the paper that he had done little in way of due diligence. By his own admission in 2005 he saw the need to diversify out of Irish property and started buying things abroad. Then, despite his wisdom in that regard, he had a rush of blood to the head and poured everything into a bank whose assets were secured on Irish property. The dogs in the street knew that Irish property would not go up any more in 2007, even if not everyone predicted the full rate of decline.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 05:33:16 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 26, 2012, 05:04:15 PM
QuoteI am pretty sure he would have done his due diligence and felt it was a good investment, who would fear there were riskier places to put your money in than a bank (especially one that was performing the way Anglo had been performing)? it was a bit of a no-brainer!

SQ said himself in the interview in the paper that he had done little in way of due diligence. By his own admission in 2005 he saw the need to diversify out of Irish property and started buying things abroad. Then, despite his wisdom in that regard, he had a rush of blood to the head and poured everything into a bank whose assets were secured on Irish property. The dogs in the street knew that Irish property would not go up any more in 2007, even if not everyone predicted the full rate of decline.

In my opinion, you're still pointing the finger at the wrong man for all the wrong reasons.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on July 26, 2012, 08:24:15 PM
Populist agenda driven by wannabee business experts. Know f**k alls
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on July 26, 2012, 10:03:44 PM
*everyone looks back through the thread to see whos side rrhf is on before deciding how to respond*
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 26, 2012, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: rrhf on July 26, 2012, 08:24:15 PM
Populist agenda driven by wannabee business experts. Know f**k alls

I agree!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on July 27, 2012, 12:06:31 AM
Quote from: rrhf on July 26, 2012, 08:24:15 PM
Populist agenda driven by wannabee business experts. Know f**k alls

Good to see you're joining in on the reasoned debate there rrhf. People were actually having a civil discussion on the matter here!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on July 27, 2012, 12:48:15 AM
Debate, reAsoned, what you guys are reading in the Dublin papers you are regurgitating. People like sean Quinn got Croke park built. Now we hang them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 27, 2012, 01:39:09 AM
QuotePeople like sean Quinn got Croke park built. Now we hang them
.

Quinn did great work. But he subsequently lost the plot and I don't see why the rest of us should take the hit because of a loan that he freely entered into himself, for the purpose for making himself even richer.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 27, 2012, 07:38:07 AM
You still don't have a clue!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on July 27, 2012, 08:22:06 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 27, 2012, 01:39:09 AM
QuotePeople like sean Quinn got Croke park built. Now we hang them
.

Quinn did great work. But he subsequently lost the plot and I don't see why the rest of us should take the hit because of a loan that he freely entered into himself, for the purpose for making himself even richer.
Croke park was a huge risk too.  Thank god it paid off and the gaa profiteered from it. Could you imagine a business man taking a gamble.  They have to, it's their nature.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on July 27, 2012, 08:28:22 AM
Mr Water's take on it

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0727/1224320884392.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0727/1224320884392.html)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 27, 2012, 08:49:20 AM
Quote from: rrhf on July 27, 2012, 08:22:06 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 27, 2012, 01:39:09 AM
QuotePeople like sean Quinn got Croke park built. Now we hang them
.

Quinn did great work. But he subsequently lost the plot and I don't see why the rest of us should take the hit because of a loan that he freely entered into himself, for the purpose for making himself even richer.
Croke park was a huge risk too.  Thank god it paid off and the gaa profiteered from it. Could you imagine a business man taking a gamble.  They have to, it's their nature.

And should they pay when their gamble doesn't pay off, or should we pick up the tab cos they were such great mavericks?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 09:10:33 AM
That decision wasn't made by the Quinns. Should the Quinns drop any grievances they have just because the State made the decision on the bank guarantee?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 27, 2012, 09:38:49 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 09:10:33 AM
That decision wasn't made by the Quinns. Should the Quinns drop any grievances they have just because the State made the decision on the bank guarantee?

They can have as many grievances as they like as long as they act within the law.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 09:40:48 AM
Or alternatively Anglo broke the law so they should be stopped from reaping the benefits from it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 27, 2012, 09:58:29 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 09:40:48 AM
Or alternatively Anglo broke the law so they should be stopped from reaping the benefits from it?

They're not mutually exclusive. If Anglo broke the law, it doesn't mean SQ can't have.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 10:08:49 AM
Of course not. But it's a bit rich only punishing one side of it just because it may cost the state if they decide to punish the other. Nobody's claiming that SQ shouldn't get punished for anything. The claim is Anglo should also be punished regardless of whether it benefits the Quinns. That isn't the case at the minute. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 27, 2012, 10:41:06 AM
Were 3 of the Anglo bosses charged with 16 offences in the past week?
I know it's taken far too long, but it looks like something is happening finally.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 27, 2012, 11:10:56 AM
Quote from: Declan on July 27, 2012, 08:28:22 AM
Mr Water's take on it

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0727/1224320884392.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0727/1224320884392.html)

The comments on the article speak volumes. It seems Quinn's fate was 'inevitable'. I never realised John Waters was a Calvinist.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 11:45:09 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 27, 2012, 10:41:06 AM
Were 3 of the Anglo bosses charged with 16 offences in the past week?
I know it's taken far too long, but it looks like something is happening finally.

They did but they haven't taken any action against Anglo regarding the loans or do they seem to be intent to do so. They are happy to continue to allow Anglo to enforce illegal loans without taking action to see whether these should be enforced or not.
Thankfully they have started moving against the individuals involved in Anglo, and from the sound of it, it would seem to have strengthen the Quinns large cases which are running next year.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 27, 2012, 11:59:18 AM
Businessman Seán Quinn has said "a very conscious decision" had been made to put assets beyond the reach of the IBRC, formerly Anglo Irish Bank, despite receiving advice to the contrary.

Seán Quinn said he would go to prison if he had to.

Speaking on Shannonside Northern Sound Radio with his daughter Colette, Mr Quinn said he still feels that it was the right thing to do.

"I'm not the easiest man to advise. We took it on ourselves to do it and we felt that it was the right thing to do, and we still feel that it was the right thing to have done.

"Unfortunately, it's turned out very badly, and unfortunately it's ended up in prison."

Mr Quinn said he had thought at the time that they were retaining their assets and that the IBRC were moving in on those assets illegally.

However, he said that the courts obviously did not agree with that position, but the Quinn family are appealing the court's decision.

Mr Quinn described it as an extraordinary situation that Seán Quinn Jnr is now in prison, but said that his son was coping well.

He said that his nephew Peter Darragh Quinn, for whom there is an outstanding warrant, had done everything in his power to resolve the issue.

Seán Quinn added that he was never one to run away from trouble or to "jump on an aeroplane and head away to some foreign country", but would continue to fight his corner and try to redeem his reputation in some way.

He added that if he had to go to jail, he would.

He said that a lot of the media had fallen "hook line and sinker for the Anglo story, that Quinn is the bad boy and they are the good guys".

Speaking on the same programme, Colette Quinn said that the media attention around the living expenses of Quinn family members was "about nothing".

Ms Quinn said that the amount of €8,000 a month in living expenses family members had been awarded previously was not set at their request, but was decided by the court.

He said they were not requesting €8,000 a month on this occasion either.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyronefan on July 27, 2012, 01:51:14 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 11:45:09 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 27, 2012, 10:41:06 AM
Were 3 of the Anglo bosses charged with 16 offences in the past week?
I know it's taken far too long, but it looks like something is happening finally.

They did but they haven't taken any action against Anglo regarding the loans or do they seem to be intent to do so. They are happy to continue to allow Anglo to enforce illegal loans without taking action to see whether these should be enforced or not.
Thankfully they have started moving against the individuals involved in Anglo, and from the sound of it, it would seem to have strengthen the Quinns large cases which are running next year.


Quinn says they are illegal and Anglo says they are legal. Is this case not before the courts. As of yet we have no decision wether they are legal or not
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 02:01:58 PM
Do you believe there is even a smidgen of doubt that the loans were illegal? If you do then your the first person I've spoken to who does. Even the most ardent of Quinn haters would accept that the loans were issued for share support. And I'd imagine the fact that it's taken the courts three years to compile the evidence for full criminal charges, they obviously believe there's a case to be answered.

And if there is, why should they be allowed to enforce these loans before a decision is made over whether they are legal or not. It's arse about face.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 27, 2012, 02:29:16 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 02:01:58 PM
Do you believe there is even a smidgen of doubt that the loans were illegal? If you do then your the first person I've spoken to who does. Even the most ardent of Quinn haters would accept that the loans were issued for share support. And I'd imagine the fact that it's taken the courts three years to compile the evidence for full criminal charges, they obviously believe there's a case to be answered.

And if there is, why should they be allowed to enforce these loans before a decision is made over whether they are legal or not. It's arse about face.


So if the loans are found to have been illegal, who should be liable for them?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 02:35:50 PM
Anglo. They were the financially regulated instution. The onus was on them to ensure any loans they made were legal and enforcable. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 27, 2012, 02:36:07 PM
QuoteSo if the loans are found to have been illegal, who should be liable for them?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6aFhtKhWj5A/TaTv_ffUK9I/AAAAAAAAAF8/zRNS6oNRAI0/s1600/screwed.jpg)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 02:41:01 PM
Yeah that kinda sucks I suppose. But that's what the state agreed to when going through the bank guarantee. They can't pick and choose their liabilities.
Obviously it will depend on whether the loans are deemed illegal or not.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 27, 2012, 03:31:30 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 02:35:50 PM
Anglo. They were the financially regulated instution. The onus was on them to ensure any loans they made were legal and enforcable.

If SQ was aware (and I am not saying he was) that the loans were not kosher would there not be an element of liability on him also?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on July 27, 2012, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 27, 2012, 03:31:30 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 02:35:50 PM
Anglo. They were the financially regulated instution. The onus was on them to ensure any loans they made were legal and enforcable.

If SQ was aware (and I am not saying he was) that the loans were not kosher would there not be an element of liability on him also?

I think having your profitable business empire taken away from you is a big enough liability, would you agree?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 03:47:30 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 27, 2012, 03:31:30 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 02:35:50 PM
Anglo. They were the financially regulated instution. The onus was on them to ensure any loans they made were legal and enforcable.

If SQ was aware (and I am not saying he was) that the loans were not kosher would there not be an element of liability on him also?

There would indeed. I'm not saying that SQ wasn't guilty of anything. That's why the whole issue of the loans should be looked at before any enforcement of them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 28, 2012, 10:17:18 PM
Quote from: boojangles on July 27, 2012, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 27, 2012, 03:31:30 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 27, 2012, 02:35:50 PM
Anglo. They were the financially regulated instution. The onus was on them to ensure any loans they made were legal and enforcable.

If SQ was aware (and I am not saying he was) that the loans were not kosher would there not be an element of liability on him also?

I think having your profitable business empire taken away from you is a big enough liability, would you agree?
Depends upon how culpable he is.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 29, 2012, 09:20:34 AM
Fair enough, that's why it should be investigated now before the loans are enforced. There's a big rally this evening at 7 in ballyconnell to show support for the quinns and to ask the state to stop the enforcement of these loans until they are fully investigated. There will be a few Prominent and interesting speakers to discuss it. Just in case any of you's wanted to go!! ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 29, 2012, 10:07:11 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 29, 2012, 09:20:34 AM
Fair enough, that's why it should be investigated now before the loans are enforced. There's a big rally this evening at 7 in ballyconnell to show support for the quinns and to ask the state to stop the enforcement of these loans until they are fully investigated. There will be a few Prominent and interesting speakers to discuss it. Just in case any of you's wanted to go!! ;D
Agreed, but are they not freezing the assets until that is determined?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Aaron Boone on July 29, 2012, 10:42:08 AM
Peter Darragh was at the Belcoo-Tempo match on Fri says the BBC.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 29, 2012, 11:03:14 AM
Quote from: Aaron Boone on July 29, 2012, 10:42:08 AM
Peter Darragh was at the Belcoo-Tempo match on Fri says the BBC.
Worse punishment than jail.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 29, 2012, 11:57:47 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 29, 2012, 10:07:11 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 29, 2012, 09:20:34 AM
Fair enough, that's why it should be investigated now before the loans are enforced. There's a big rally this evening at 7 in ballyconnell to show support for the quinns and to ask the state to stop the enforcement of these loans until they are fully investigated. There will be a few Prominent and interesting speakers to discuss it. Just in case any of you's wanted to go!! ;D
Agreed, but are they not freezing the assets until that is determined?

No they are freezing everything on the Quinns side. But are still allowing Anglo a free reign on asset recovery. Including organising sales of assets.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Oldhacker on July 29, 2012, 02:10:20 PM
According to Twitter and Facebook, the main speakers at tonight's rally in Ballyconnell in support of the Quinn family are Mickey Harte, Sean Boylan and Colm O'Rourke. With Peter Quinn junior turning up with his father at the Fermangh championship match on Friday, the impression is being given that the GAA is backing the Quinn campaign all the way.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: firestarter on July 29, 2012, 06:50:11 PM
I dont understand what they are hoping to achieve. I'm aware of all that the quinn family did for the people of this part of the world but they took gambles by way of investments which they lost on. The net result is that they owe the Irish tax payer and have acted illegally in trying to prevent this debt being recovered. Am I missing something here??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 29, 2012, 09:51:54 PM
Tony Fearon and Newton Emerson giving a few good quotes about this on twitter. Newton wont be holidaying round Fermanagh for a while.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 29, 2012, 10:30:47 PM
Quote from: firestarter on July 29, 2012, 06:50:11 PM
I dont understand what they are hoping to achieve. I'm aware of all that the quinn family did for the people of this part of the world but they took gambles by way of investments which they lost on. The net result is that they owe the Irish tax payer and have acted illegally in trying to prevent this debt being recovered. Am I missing something here??
[/b]

Plenty. All is not what it seems.  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 29, 2012, 10:33:22 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 29, 2012, 10:30:47 PM
Quote from: firestarter on July 29, 2012, 06:50:11 PM
I dont understand what they are hoping to achieve. I'm aware of all that the quinn family did for the people of this part of the world but they took gambles by way of investments which they lost on. The net result is that they owe the Irish tax payer and have acted illegally in trying to prevent this debt being recovered. Am I missing something here??
[/b]

Plenty. All is not what it seems.  ;)
Doesnt firestarter know St Sean was hiding all this cash to give to the poor  ::)

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: saffron sam2 on July 29, 2012, 11:28:15 PM
Joe Kernan there to lend his support?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 29, 2012, 11:48:06 PM
Several major GAA names from both sides of the border led young and old, many carrying posters calling for the release of Sean Jnr.

An emotional Sean Quinn Snr, his wife Patricia, three of their children and extended family members, including Sean Jnr's wife Karen, were at the demonstration.

"The Quinns always stick by each other," he said.

The former tycoon thanked his staff for their service and their help in building the empire he grew by working hard on his behalf, but criticised those against him.

"An untrue story is being told," he added.

Tyrone manager Mickey Harte also stood by the Quinns, who at one stage employed 7,000 people – many in the border counties.

"You know decent people when you meet them. The Quinns are decent people," he said.

Elsewhere Father Brian D'Arcy compared Anglo, rebranded as the IBRC, to the institutions of the Catholic Church.

"The main reason I'm here tonight is because as Christians and good neighbours we have a right, a duty, to and stand by our families and neighbours when they are in trouble," the outspoken priest said.

"And nobody will take that away from us."

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 30, 2012, 07:23:55 AM
What a load of shite. What Fr Darcy said is basically that we'll defend them because we know them and they employed a lot of people, it doesn't matter whether they're right or wrong.
Fine, but don't think that the rest of the country should follow suit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 08:33:35 AM
That's not what he said at all. But I'm not surprised that's what is being reported in the papers today. It really opens your eyes when you attend something and see it with your own eyes and then you hear the PR version that is put out in the media. If ever I needed convincing of Anglo's control over the media I've seen it with the reporting so far of this demonstration. But unfortunately some people just believe everything they read!! Some reports also saying there were hundred's at it. I would have estimated at the very least 5K but prob more towards 7K. Ballyconnell main strret was packed from the Garda Station all the way back to the crossroads.
What Father Darcy had said before going into that, was calling for Action to look into the loans and to whether they were enforceable? He said this should have been the first question when they moved to seize assets and not the last one.
Again it seems to be other people that are using the " He created jobs line" or "he a saint" line now to muddy the water and make out that this is the only reason the Quinns are taking action. What a lot of people are reluctant to admit is that the Quinns now have a legal case against the loans, and the fact that the Irish state and Anglo are doing their best to " Carry on regardless" now is not going to take away from that. There were strong questions asked of Enda Kenny so it will be interesting to see if he bothers to answer them.
It was a strong line up including Colm O'Rourke, Mickey Harte, Jarlath Burns, Big Joe, Father D'arcy, Sean Boylan and a few local representatives. Some very passionate speeches by the above speakers calling for the Quinns side of the story to be heard. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: glens abu on July 30, 2012, 08:34:55 AM
ffs the rest of the country wouldn't know a decent person if they were standing beside them,they have been brought up listening to shite merchants on the late late for years.Grow a pair and get out and support someone who have his country and community at heart. >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 09:17:34 AM
Big crowds used to turn up in Ballinspittle to see statues move.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 09:21:20 AM
Big crowds also used to turn out at civil rights marches.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hereiam on July 30, 2012, 09:57:35 AM
Agree with you Sarsfields, the media is doing all the dirty work for Anglo. If you don't have them on ur side there isnt much hope.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Saffrongael on July 30, 2012, 10:12:53 AM
Is Jarlath Burns now just a rent-a-mob ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on July 30, 2012, 10:30:06 AM
Quote from: Saffrongael on July 30, 2012, 10:12:53 AM
Is Jarlath Burns now just a rent-a-Gob?

Fixed that for you SG
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 10:34:52 AM
Have to say he had the other half's attention anyway. Very impressed she was!!  :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on July 30, 2012, 10:35:38 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 10:34:52 AM
Have to say he had the other half's attention anyway. Very impressed she was!!  :o

Be careful now Ted, ye never know who's reading this ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2012, 10:40:17 AM
Quote from: orangeman on July 29, 2012, 11:48:06 PM
Several major GAA names from both sides of the border led young and old, many carrying posters calling for the release of Sean Jnr.

An emotional Sean Quinn Snr, his wife Patricia, three of their children and extended family members, including Sean Jnr's wife Karen, were at the demonstration.

"The Quinns always stick by each other," he said.

The former tycoon thanked his staff for their service and their help in building the empire he grew by working hard on his behalf, but criticised those against him.

"An untrue story is being told," he added.

Tyrone manager Mickey Harte also stood by the Quinns, who at one stage employed 7,000 people – many in the border counties.

"You know decent people when you meet them. The Quinns are decent people," he said.

Elsewhere Father Brian D'Arcy compared Anglo, rebranded as the IBRC, to the institutions of the Catholic Church.

"The main reason I'm here tonight is because as Christians and good neighbours we have a right, a duty, to and stand by our families and neighbours when they are in trouble," the outspoken priest said.

"And nobody will take that away from us."
The border counties have been shafted since the foundation of the state. Quinn was their big man for a long time but he was flawed and he lost it all. And it is not coming back. 

The people need representatives to serve their interests.  In other countries that would be the State but unfortunately they live in Ireland. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 10:53:16 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 30, 2012, 10:35:38 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 10:34:52 AM
Have to say he had the other half's attention anyway. Very impressed she was!!  :o

Be careful now Ted, ye never know who's reading this ;)

Right enough, Jarlath keep ya distance!!

Seafoid, things are changing. Since the developments last week the pressure is building on the State to investigate the validity of the loans now. There was 5-6000 out last night at very little notice. And this is only the start of it. Quinn has great support from his own community, no doubt about that. But now unfortunately for the state, they now have a legal avenue to persue as well. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 30, 2012, 11:27:39 AM
The mist is beginning to clear. People can see that the treatment of Quinn has been very unjust. The treatment of him by the Irish government in the shape of the IBRC. Many of these people who turned out yesterday whose government they are.

I don't know what they can achieve but hope these rallies and shows of support end up with some productive action and some tangible results.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 30, 2012, 11:44:38 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on July 30, 2012, 09:57:35 AM
Agree with you Sarsfields, the media is doing all the dirty work for Anglo. If you don't have them on ur side there isnt much hope.

And who's doing the dirty work for Quinns now that Sean Jnr is in chokey and PD is on the run? ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Applesisapples on July 30, 2012, 11:53:00 AM
Guys, you can not excuse Anglo from culpability here, they basically lent Quinns money to buy shares in Anglo to try and prop up the company. You'd have to ask if they had been told the true state of Anglo's affairs would they have invested. It was this alone which took down his business. There are a lot of guys still wandering about who did worse. At least the Quinns tried to bring industry to the Border counties.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 30, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 30, 2012, 11:53:00 AM
Guys, you can not excuse Anglo from culpability here, they basically lent Quinns money to buy shares in Anglo to try and prop up the company. You'd have to ask if they had been told the true state of Anglo's affairs would they have invested. It was this alone which took down his business. There are a lot of guys still wandering about who did worse. At least the Quinns tried to bring industry to the Border counties.

Hasn't SQ admitted his due diligence wasn't up to scratch?

I've posted it before but just because all the guilty haven't been brought before the courts (yet) doesn't mean we should let some of the gulity go scot free as well
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on July 30, 2012, 12:07:04 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 30, 2012, 11:53:00 AM
Guys, you can not excuse Anglo from culpability here, they basically lent Quinns money to buy shares in Anglo to try and prop up the company. You'd have to ask if they had been told the true state of Anglo's affairs would they have invested. It was this alone which took down his business. There are a lot of guys still wandering about who did worse. At least the Quinns tried to bring industry to the Border counties.

I presume Quinn used this money to buy the shares in Anglo? He was then in on illegal share trading, not being a expert in the financial world, he's should have the evidence to bring down Anglo's head honcho's then.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 12:15:18 PM
AQMP there's no question that SQ will have to take some part of responsibility for his actions in the share support. But the State have just decided that the punishment should be be that he and his family are relieved of all their assets and businesses. That is not right their decision to make.

Quote from: johnneycool on July 30, 2012, 12:07:04 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 30, 2012, 11:53:00 AM
Guys, you can not excuse Anglo from culpability here, they basically lent Quinns money to buy shares in Anglo to try and prop up the company. You'd have to ask if they had been told the true state of Anglo's affairs would they have invested. It was this alone which took down his business. There are a lot of guys still wandering about who did worse. At least the Quinns tried to bring industry to the Border counties.

I presume Quinn used this money to buy the shares in Anglo? He was then in on illegal share trading, not being a expert in the financial world, he's should have the evidence to bring down Anglo's head honcho's then.

Definitely. That is why they have asked for discovery for 1000,000's of documents of Anglo's with regards to the Share support. Anglo contested the providing of these documents but a Judge ruled earlier this year that they will have to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:24:08 PM
Anglo did not lend money to Quinn to buy shares.

Quinn exposed himself to huge losses on CFDs on Anglo shares and Anglo stepped in to cover his exposure. Anglo acted after the horse had bolted.

Can anyone explain what Quinn would have done if Anglo told him to swing his hook when they became aware of his exposure?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 12:33:12 PM
Anglo did lend money to the Quinn family to support their share price.

You'd can't disregard anglo's actions by saying they reacted after the horse had bolted. They were a financial institution that is regulated by the Irish FR. There is more onus on them than any individual. At no stage are they justified in committing fraud.

Had anglo not loaned SQ the money, he would have lost all his money he had plied into Anglo. He would have been made bankrupted on the back of it. But it would not have touched his family's businesses or assets which is what Anglo have now moved on.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 30, 2012, 12:34:50 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:24:08 PM
Anglo did not lend money to Quinn to buy shares.

Quinn exposed himself to huge losses on CFDs on Anglo shares and Anglo stepped in to cover his exposure. Anglo acted after the horse had bolted.

Can anyone explain what Quinn would have done if Anglo told him to swing his hook when they became aware of his exposure?

I'm not an expert here SS, but at the stage Anglo became aware of Quinn's exposure to the CFDs was the bank not fucked too (due to the level of his exposure)??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
QuoteAnglo did lend money to the Quinn family to support their share price

No it didn't.

It lent moeny to the so-called Maple 10 (and this is what will jail the Seanie & Co) to support the share price.

The Board was unaware that Quinn had built up almost 30% as CFD 'purchases' don't get reported to the Stock Exchange.

They did not lend him money to buy Anglo shares. They did cover his exposure when the shit hit the fan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on July 30, 2012, 12:39:13 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 27, 2012, 11:10:56 AM
Quote from: Declan on July 27, 2012, 08:28:22 AM
Mr Water's take on it

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0727/1224320884392.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0727/1224320884392.html)

The comments on the article speak volumes. It seems Quinn's fate was 'inevitable'. I never realised John Waters was a Calvinist.
Perhaps what Adam Smith famously referred to as the "invisible hand" ( a quasi-religious fairy tale about the providence of God) was what led Quinn to gamble away company assets with a frenzy.




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 30, 2012, 12:41:50 PM
High profile supporters behind the Quinns.

BUSINESSMAN Sean Quinn last night vowed his family would stand together as he received rapturous applause at a major support rally in his heartland.

Joined on stage in Ballyconnell, Co Cavan, by Tyrone GAA manager Mickey Harte and well-known priest Fr Brian D'Arcy, Mr Quinn warned supporters that he felt emotional and that speaking would be a difficult task.

Mr Quinn once Ireland's richest man referred to his fugitive nephew, Peter Darragh, claiming the nephew's reputation had been damaged.

"I'd like to thank especially young Peter who's getting a bad reputation. Peter has been a huge support to his family and the Quinns will continue to be the Quinns and we will stand by each other."

Mr Quinn thanked his staff for their loyalty and support and said they had been "tremendous".

He left the stage, got into a car and was driven off.

Earlier, his daughter Colette said the family were looking forward to their day in court when they would be vindicated.

Throughout the evening Mr Quinn was feted as the man who brought growth and prosperity to a region allegedly ignored by the northern and southern governments.

And the former businessman was honoured as a man who did not flaunt his wealth, but poured it back into the local community.

The side of a lorry was the stage for the rally in Ballyconnell where supporters lined part of the main street to praise the man whose name adorned buildings throughout the area.

Below a banner demanding "natural justice" for the Quinn family, Fr D'Arcy stated that it should be the regulators, auditors and banks before the courts, not the Quinn family.

"The main reason I'm here is because as Christians and good neighbours we have a right and a duty to stand by our families and neighbours," he said.

"They built an industry the like of which has never been seen in this country.

"When northern governments and southern governments wouldn't give us a penny, when not a single one of them provided a job, it was Sean Quinn and his family who took up the battle."

More than 1,000 people thronged the main street in Ballyconnell, bearing placards alleging that what happened to the Quinn family was an injustice. It was easy to see why the family has such support in the area.

One woman, who did not wish to be named, said the family had brought employment to an area largely forgotten by central government.

"The area would be nothing without that family," she told the Irish Independent. "There would be no employment here if it were not for them."

Empire

On the road from Derrylin, Co Fermanagh, to Ballyconnell, just across the Border in Co Cavan, elements of the Quinn family's former empire peppered the landscape.

Quinnglass, Quinn rooftiles, Quinnpherm and Quinn Packaging were just some of the factory-style buildings bearing the family name, as well as the large, red-brick office complex of the Quinn Group.

Local businessman Padraig Donohoe said Mr Quinn was one of the greatest entrepreneurs the country had ever produced.

"We are here to fight our corner and it's going to be a hard fight," he said.

"We are here to support the Quinn family, a family who stands for everything that is good in Irishness and deep family values."

Former Meath manager Sean Boylan said the Quinn family were "not thieves, not vagabonds, they're not people who don't care"."

They are Irish people who have the guts and ingenuity to create a better life for thousands of people in this country and we owe them a massive favour of thanks and gratitude."

Meath legend Colm O'Rourke also joined the marchers.

Former Armagh manager Joe Kernan and captain Jarlath Burns also spoke, while a handwritten letter of support was read out from Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary.
- Colm Kelpie

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on July 30, 2012, 12:42:25 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:24:08 PM
Anglo did not lend money to Quinn to buy shares.

Quinn exposed himself to huge losses on CFDs on Anglo shares and Anglo stepped in to cover his exposure. Anglo acted after the horse had bolted.

Can anyone explain what Quinn would have done if Anglo told him to swing his hook when they became aware of his exposure?

Are these CFD's not really betting slips of sorts, i.e you're betting that a share will rise or fall and can make/lose accordingly?

If Quinn was about to lose big time on CFD's, were they CFD's on Anglo shares? How does someone betting on shares effect the company the shares were in directly?


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:44:58 PM
Sorry AQMP

Our posts crossed. Anglo was prob doomed anyway - but that doesn't make an excuse for Quinn. When Anglo became aware it was panic stations but, as I said, the damage was done to Quinn. He was exposed to unknown market men to the tune of over 2 bn. Not to Anglo. The market men had to be paid. Quinn ran to Anglo. Anglo bailed him out.

Hey, I lost 1,500 euro as I was a shareholder. Who do I claim this money back from?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
QuoteAnglo did lend money to the Quinn family to support their share price

No it didn't.

It lent moeny to the so-called Maple 10 (and this is what will jail the Seanie & Co) to support the share price.

The Board was unaware that Quinn had built up almost 30% as CFD 'purchases' don't get reported to the Stock Exchange.

They did not lend him money to buy Anglo shares. They did cover his exposure when the shit hit the fan.

They lent him money to allow him to meet the margin calls on the CFDs. Had they not done that the shares would have flooded back onto the market causing a crash in the share price. In doing so SQ would have been made bankrupt on the back of the CFD calls but the assets ( The group, and foreign assets) would have stayed with the Quinn family. Instead Anglo devised the loans and then retrospectively linked them to the group and foreign assests. That is why there are 16 counts of share support not 10. ( Maple ten plus the 5 children of SQ and Patricia)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 30, 2012, 12:49:54 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
The Board was unaware that Quinn had built up almost 30% as CFD 'purchases' don't get reported to the Stock Exchange.

They did not lend him money to buy Anglo shares. They did cover his exposure when the shit hit the fan.

I'm confused. What was Anglo's motivation for loaning Seán Quinn the money?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:50:56 PM
Supersarsfields.

Do you know how much Quinn Group owed Anglo before all this happened.
Do you think the entire Group has no external/bank funding?
Do you not think Sean Quinn going bankrupt personally would have called in these loans and he'd be in the same position that he is now.

And finally are the learned High Court Judges Dublin 4 types that are out to get Quinn? Is our judicial system that corrupt?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2012, 12:51:14 PM
"We are here to support the Quinn family, a family who stands for everything that is good in Irishness and deep family values."


I just broke down in tears reading that. Will they kill Lassie now  ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 30, 2012, 12:59:07 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:44:58 PM
Sorry AQMP

Our posts crossed. Anglo was prob doomed anyway - but that doesn't make an excuse for Quinn. When Anglo became aware it was panic stations but, as I said, the damage was done to Quinn. He was exposed to unknown market men to the tune of over 2 bn. Not to Anglo. The market men had to be paid. Quinn ran to Anglo. Anglo bailed him out.

Hey, I lost 1,500 euro as I was a shareholder. Who do I claim this money back from?

By the looks of Ballyconnell last night...the GAA?? ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 01:01:18 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:50:56 PM
Supersarsfields.

Do you know how much Quinn Group owed Anglo before all this happened.
Do you think the entire Group has no external/bank funding?
Do you not think Sean Quinn going bankrupt personally would have called in these loans and he'd be in the same position that he is now.

And finally are the learned High Court Judges Dublin 4 types that are out to get Quinn? Is our judicial system that corrupt?

I know how much dept Anglo are enforcing. Of course the QG had external funding, the bondholders for a start.
SQ getting made bankrupt would have had no call on the QG and foreign assets as they were listed in the Children's names from 2002.

As for the courts, they have given the Quinn family the legal standing to run the case against the validity of the loans so can't argue with them there. Or do you think they were wrong in doing so?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 30, 2012, 01:02:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
QuoteAnglo did lend money to the Quinn family to support their share price

No it didn't.

It lent moeny to the so-called Maple 10 (and this is what will jail the Seanie & Co) to support the share price.

The Board was unaware that Quinn had built up almost 30% as CFD 'purchases' don't get reported to the Stock Exchange.

They did not lend him money to buy Anglo shares. They did cover his exposure when the shit hit the fan.

They lent him money to allow him to meet the margin calls on the CFDs. Had they not done that the shares would have flooded back onto the market causing a crash in the share price. In doing so SQ would have been made bankrupt on the back of the CFD calls but the assets ( The group, and foreign assets) would have stayed with the Quinn family. Instead Anglo devised the loans and then retrospectively linked them to the group and foreign assests. That is why there are 16 counts of share support not 10. ( Maple ten plus the 5 children of SQ and Patricia)

I didn't realise that this was why there were 16 charges. Interesting times ahead.

Whilst Sean Quinn is not without fault, Anglo executives and their advisers and solicitors are bound to be in trouble.

Whether this will eventually be any good to Sean Quinn and his former group is hard to know but it seems Quinn is upping the ante as far as the media are concerned and right he is too. No point losing that battle as well.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 30, 2012, 01:38:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 12:45:25 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
QuoteAnglo did lend money to the Quinn family to support their share price

No it didn't.

It lent moeny to the so-called Maple 10 (and this is what will jail the Seanie & Co) to support the share price.

The Board was unaware that Quinn had built up almost 30% as CFD 'purchases' don't get reported to the Stock Exchange.

They did not lend him money to buy Anglo shares. They did cover his exposure when the shit hit the fan.

They lent him money to allow him to meet the margin calls on the CFDs. Had they not done that the shares would have flooded back onto the market causing a crash in the share price. In doing so SQ would have been made bankrupt on the back of the CFD calls but the assets ( The group, and foreign assets) would have stayed with the Quinn family. Instead Anglo devised the loans and then retrospectively linked them to the group and foreign assests. That is why there are 16 counts of share support not 10. ( Maple ten plus the 5 children of SQ and Patricia)

Is this the crux of the case, whether these loans against the wife and Children were valid?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on July 30, 2012, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 30, 2012, 12:49:54 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
The Board was unaware that Quinn had built up almost 30% as CFD 'purchases' don't get reported to the Stock Exchange.

They did not lend him money to buy Anglo shares. They did cover his exposure when the shit hit the fan.

I'm confused. What was Anglo's motivation for loaning Seán Quinn the money?

I understand they lent him money to meet the margin calls on his CFDs (i.e. the losses these "bets" were making because the Anglo share price was falling instead of rising as Quinn had bet with the CFDs). If they hadn't done that, Quinn would have been forced to dump his shares in the open market, causing the Anglo share price to collapse.

I'm not sure if that action can be construed as an artificial share support scheme, which is illegal, but it's difficult to see how the loans to the Maple 10 to buy Anglo shares, with only the shares themselves as collateral, can be seen as anything else.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on July 30, 2012, 02:09:56 PM
Looks like this is far from over. Will make a hell of a film some day..
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 02:38:02 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 30, 2012, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 30, 2012, 12:49:54 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
The Board was unaware that Quinn had built up almost 30% as CFD 'purchases' don't get reported to the Stock Exchange.

They did not lend him money to buy Anglo shares. They did cover his exposure when the shit hit the fan.

I'm confused. What was Anglo's motivation for loaning Seán Quinn the money?

I understand they lent him money to meet the margin calls on his CFDs (i.e. the losses these "bets" were making because the Anglo share price was falling instead of rising as Quinn had bet with the CFDs). If they hadn't done that, Quinn would have been forced to dump his shares in the open market, causing the Anglo share price to collapse.

I'm not sure if that action can be construed as an artificial share support scheme, which is illegal, but it's difficult to see how the loans to the Maple 10 to buy Anglo shares, with only the shares themselves as collateral, can be seen as anything else.

I honestly can't understand how it could be considered anything else Hardy. No doubt Sean Quinn had dropped them in it and for that he'll have to accept whatever comes from that. But they made the decision to lend money to the Quinns to support the CFD calls to stop the share price plumenting. What ever way you square that, It's share support.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on July 30, 2012, 02:43:05 PM
Yes, it's hard to see it any other way.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2012, 02:52:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 02:38:02 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 30, 2012, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 30, 2012, 12:49:54 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
The Board was unaware that Quinn had built up almost 30% as CFD 'purchases' don't get reported to the Stock Exchange.

They did not lend him money to buy Anglo shares. They did cover his exposure when the shit hit the fan.

I'm confused. What was Anglo's motivation for loaning Seán Quinn the money?

I understand they lent him money to meet the margin calls on his CFDs (i.e. the losses these "bets" were making because the Anglo share price was falling instead of rising as Quinn had bet with the CFDs). If they hadn't done that, Quinn would have been forced to dump his shares in the open market, causing the Anglo share price to collapse.

I'm not sure if that action can be construed as an artificial share support scheme, which is illegal, but it's difficult to see how the loans to the Maple 10 to buy Anglo shares, with only the shares themselves as collateral, can be seen as anything else.

I honestly can't understand how it could be considered anything else Hardy. No doubt Sean Quinn had dropped them in it and for that he'll have to accept whatever comes from that. But they made the decision to lend money to the Quinns to support the CFD calls to stop the share price plumenting. What ever way you square that, It's share support.

Sars

who do you think should pay for it given that Anglo is bust and the shareholders were wiped out ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 30, 2012, 03:01:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2012, 02:52:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 02:38:02 PM
Quote from: Hardy on July 30, 2012, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 30, 2012, 12:49:54 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
The Board was unaware that Quinn had built up almost 30% as CFD 'purchases' don't get reported to the Stock Exchange.

They did not lend him money to buy Anglo shares. They did cover his exposure when the shit hit the fan.

I'm confused. What was Anglo's motivation for loaning Seán Quinn the money?

I understand they lent him money to meet the margin calls on his CFDs (i.e. the losses these "bets" were making because the Anglo share price was falling instead of rising as Quinn had bet with the CFDs). If they hadn't done that, Quinn would have been forced to dump his shares in the open market, causing the Anglo share price to collapse.

I'm not sure if that action can be construed as an artificial share support scheme, which is illegal, but it's difficult to see how the loans to the Maple 10 to buy Anglo shares, with only the shares themselves as collateral, can be seen as anything else.

I honestly can't understand how it could be considered anything else Hardy. No doubt Sean Quinn had dropped them in it and for that he'll have to accept whatever comes from that. But they made the decision to lend money to the Quinns to support the CFD calls to stop the share price plumenting. What ever way you square that, It's share support.

Sars

who do you think should pay for it given that Anglo is bust and the shareholders were wiped out ?

I'm not Sarsfield but should it not be those who are legally obliged by the law of the land? And if Quinn was wronged under Irish and European law should he not have the right to appeal it to the courts? Or should Anglo and the IBRC be allowed to make up the rules in their quest to regain the money's lost in the collapse of the Irish banking sector.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 03:07:51 PM
As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I believe the majority should be picked up by Anglo. The fact that this now falls back on to taxpayers is unfortunate, but that decision was made by the government. They can't pick and choose their liabilities with regards to the bank guarantee. Nor should any liability to the taxpayers result in an unlawful decision just to save taxpayers money.

Again this is based around my understanding of the ways things have happened, and obviously on whether the courts agree. And I'll openly admit a lot of my information would come from a pro-Quinn bias.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2012, 03:55:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 03:07:51 PM
As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I believe the majority should be picked up by Anglo. The fact that this now falls back on to taxpayers is unfortunate, but that decision was made by the government. They can't pick and choose their liabilities with regards to the bank guarantee. Nor should any liability to the taxpayers result in an unlawful decision just to save taxpayers money.

Again this is based around my understanding of the ways things have happened, and obviously on whether the courts agree. And I'll openly admit a lot of my information would come from a pro-Quinn bias.
Anglo have no money. So do you think the taxpayers should pay it or someone else ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 03:59:43 PM
I've answered that already. Do you think the government can pick and choose what they want with regards to the bank guarantee?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 04:44:02 PM
SuperS

Why bring the courts into it? Shur Quinn & Co are ignoring them so far so why should they heed them whenever a judgement on the legality or otherwise of the loans is handed down.

If Quinn & Co want to use the courts let them purge their contemp and yon fugitive should man up and hand himself into the Gardai in Swanlinbar.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 30, 2012, 04:57:18 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 03:59:43 PM
I've answered that already. Do you think the government can pick and choose what they want with regards to the bank guarantee?
It is too late to moan about the guarantee. The horse has left the stables. Should every poster resident in Ireland have to chip in? Do you think that is fair? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on July 30, 2012, 05:20:07 PM

Lads we can go back and forth all day about whether or not the loans were illegal. The simple fact of the matter is that it should be for a court to decide, and until they do, all speculation is just that.

Equally if moral issues get involved, we could be here all day. Yes the Quinns created jobs, and yes they should feel obliged to pay back the loans, whether illegal or not.

However the simple fact is this - there was a court order, and the Quinns disobeyed it. They are in contempt, and they can waffle all they like about how we're not getting the full story, but the judges of the land are the people they have to tell the story to, and so far they've passed judgement that the assets should be frozen, and that was ignored. From what I can tell, this protest seems to suggest that the Quinns should be allowed to ignore the courts, and to live by their own innate sense of right and wrong.


If an Irish court deems that the loans were illegal, then the situation changes. But the idea that a creditor should stand idly by while assets are being shunted off to a foreign country, presumably never to be got back either by the Quinns or the state, is nonsensical.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 30, 2012, 05:41:31 PM
Granted; Anglo's customers needed protection because the government were not keeping a close enough eye on what Seanie Fitz and the boys were up to behind closed doors, that bank was in major shit and they went after Quinn's cash to get themselves out of trouble, now the govt are doing it. Is that Sean Quinn's fault? No. Getting involved with a corrupt bank with fudged numbers by getting too greedy and essentially trying to own it, was that Quinn's fault? Yes.

Considering the Irish government was/is on its knees in relation to its finances... was nationalising the bank and bringing the financial burden on the Irish population, well that's another debate altogether but what if the Irish Government were to have agreed to Quinn's proposal of paying the money that they owed in the 7-10 years they had originally promised and leaving things by and large, as they were, he still had QI and the other businesses, would this whole situation as it stands be alot of worse off in this scenario? They would/should have known these loans had to be investigated before flying in with all guns blazing! The Quinn Group were caught like rabbits in the headlights on this and stood there with their hands up in the air!

It was a hatchet job from the start, the Irish Revenue was after Quinn's Empire from the beginning of this whole debacle (there has never been much love lost between Quinn and the Irish State, but he asked them for nothing in way of grants etc, but likewise, had never pumped alot of cash their way in relation to party donations) as it would have filled a very big hole that had been created by the incompetence, negligence, fraud and corruption that was happening at Anglo/Regulator/Irish State at that time.  :-\

It's absolutely shocking treatment of one of Ireland's brightest shining lights in the world of homegrown Enterprise in its entire history. How this man can go from hero to zero in months is unheralded and there should be some hard questions asked. But how do you go about fighting the law in your own land??? Unfortunately, I feel they are on a hiding to nothing, Alan Shatter has already come out and basically laughed the whole thing off, they are up against the rule makers, it's like me or you taking on the Gardai in relation to slapping one after you took a few digs from a couple yourself... you know you just aren't going to win. Regardless of who is right or wrong, that's the position the Quinns are in. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Evil Genius on July 30, 2012, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 08:33:35 AM

What Father Darcy had said before going into that, was calling for Action to look into the loans and to whether they were enforceable? He said this should have been the first question when they moved to seize assets and not the last one.
Again it seems to be other people that are using the " He created jobs line" or "he a saint" line now to muddy the water and make out that this is the only reason the Quinns are taking action. What a lot of people are reluctant to admit is that the Quinns now have a legal case against the loans, and the fact that the Irish state and Anglo are doing their best to " Carry on regardless" now is not going to take away from that. There were strong questions asked of Enda Kenny so it will be interesting to see if he bothers to answer them.
Ah, but there's loans and there's loans, Sars.

As Jim Fitzpatrick pointed out on BBC NI, whether the main Anglo loans (€2 Bn?) were legal or not, that is NOT why the Quinn family were found guilty of contempt of Court.

Rather the contempt charges related to a separate €450m(?) of assets, which the Quinns lied, cheated and deceived to keep from the properly appointed Administrator.

So even if the main Anglo loans are deemed to have been illegal, therefore unenforceable, it doesn't get the Quinns off the hook. Nor should they be allowed to use this as a smokescreen for what Justice Dunne revealed as a catalogue of lies and dishonesty by them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Evil Genius on July 30, 2012, 06:11:53 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 04:44:02 PM


If Quinn & Co want to use the courts, let them purge their contemp and yon fugitive should man up and hand himself into the Gardai in Swanlinbar.
But that's the whole point, SS.

For the Quinns to purge their contempt, they would have to repatriate control of the €450-odd million assets which they have hidden overseas, via a web of disguised holding companies in dodgy tax havens etc.

And from the aggrieved tone of their recent pronouncements, it seems they think themselves entitled to keep the loot, so are unlikely to start co-operating now (at least as long as they can keep wriggling, and Sean Jr doesn't find jail too hard).

But sure, they're good GAA men/Employers/50p-a-hand weekend card players, whose every waking thought was only for the poor people of Ireland blah-di-blah-di-blah

P.S. I see they quoted a letter of support from Michael O'Leary - handwritten, no less. If that doesn't condemn them as a bunch of sharks, then fcuk knows what will...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 06:53:42 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 04:44:02 PM
SuperS

Why bring the courts into it? Shur Quinn & Co are ignoring them so far so why should they heed them whenever a judgement on the legality or otherwise of the loans is handed down.

If Quinn & Co want to use the courts let them purge their contemp and yon fugitive should man up and hand himself into the Gardai in Swanlinbar.

Straw man arguement. Any comments on the illegal loans or the fact the Irish state is happy to uphold that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Evil Genius on July 30, 2012, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 06:53:42 PMStraw man arguement. Any comments on the illegal loans or the fact the Irish state is happy to uphold that.
Any reply to #1481, Sars?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 07:05:17 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 30, 2012, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 08:33:35 AM

What Father Darcy had said before going into that, was calling for Action to look into the loans and to whether they were enforceable? He said this should have been the first question when they moved to seize assets and not the last one.
Again it seems to be other people that are using the " He created jobs line" or "he a saint" line now to muddy the water and make out that this is the only reason the Quinns are taking action. What a lot of people are reluctant to admit is that the Quinns now have a legal case against the loans, and the fact that the Irish state and Anglo are doing their best to " Carry on regardless" now is not going to take away from that. There were strong questions asked of Enda Kenny so it will be interesting to see if he bothers to answer them.
Ah, but there's loans and there's loans, Sars.

As Jim Fitzpatrick pointed out on BBC NI, whether the main Anglo loans (€2 Bn?) were legal or not, that is NOT why the Quinn family were found guilty of contempt of Court.

Rather the contempt charges related to a separate €450m(?) of assets, which the Quinns lied, cheated and deceived to keep from the properly appointed Administrator.

So even if the main Anglo loans are deemed to have been illegal, therefore unenforceable, it doesn't get the Quinns off the hook. Nor should they be allowed to use this as a smokescreen for what Justice Dunne revealed as a catalogue of lies and dishonesty by them.

Are you joking? You're really not following everything are you. Out of a dept of 2.8B the Quinns contest 2.3B on the basis of loan support. They agree that the other 450 Million is legit. But so far Anglo have taken the Group, all the hotels etc. Valued at well over the 450M that they agree was outstanding. Or can Anglo just continue to take what they want without any restraints?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 07:05:55 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 30, 2012, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 06:53:42 PMStraw man arguement. Any comments on the illegal loans or the fact the Irish state is happy to uphold that.
Any reply to #1481, Sars?

In time EG, I'm only through the doors.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 07:07:43 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 30, 2012, 06:11:53 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 04:44:02 PM


If Quinn & Co want to use the courts, let them purge their contemp and yon fugitive should man up and hand himself into the Gardai in Swanlinbar.
But that's the whole point, SS.

For the Quinns to purge their contempt, they would have to repatriate control of the €450-odd million assets which they have hidden overseas, via a web of disguised holding companies in dodgy tax havens etc.

And from the aggrieved tone of their recent pronouncements, it seems they think themselves entitled to keep the loot, so are unlikely to start co-operating now (at least as long as they can keep wriggling, and Sean Jr doesn't find jail too hard).

But sure, they're good GAA men/Employers/50p-a-hand weekend card players, whose every waking thought was only for the poor people of Ireland blah-di-blah-di-blah

P.S. I see they quoted a letter of support from Michael O'Leary - handwritten, no less. If that doesn't condemn them as a bunch of sharks, then fcuk knows what will...

I'm sure there's a point there somewhere but I'm struggling to find it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Evil Genius on July 30, 2012, 07:19:25 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 07:07:43 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 30, 2012, 06:11:53 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 30, 2012, 04:44:02 PM


If Quinn & Co want to use the courts, let them purge their contemp and yon fugitive should man up and hand himself into the Gardai in Swanlinbar.
But that's the whole point, SS.

For the Quinns to purge their contempt etc etc etc

I'm sure there's a point there somewhere but I'm struggling to find it.
That was my post #1482 (in reply to Shamrock Shore).

I was enquiring after your response to #1481, addressed to you, as follows:

"Ah, but there's loans and there's loans, Sars.

As Jim Fitzpatrick pointed out on BBC NI, whether the main Anglo loans (€2 Bn?) were legal or not, that is NOT why the Quinn family were found guilty of contempt of Court.

Rather the contempt charges related to a separate €450m(?) of assets, which the Quinns lied, cheated and deceived to keep from the properly appointed Administrator.

So even if the main Anglo loans are deemed to have been illegal, therefore unenforceable, it doesn't get the Quinns off the hook. Nor should they be allowed to use this as a smokescreen for what Justice Dunne revealed as a catalogue of lies and dishonesty by them."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 07:21:40 PM
Read back up there like a good lad.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on July 30, 2012, 07:53:33 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2012, 04:57:18 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 03:59:43 PM
I've answered that already. Do you think the government can pick and choose what they want with regards to the bank guarantee?
It is too late to moan about the guarantee. The horse has left the stables. Should every poster resident in Ireland have to chip in? Do you think that is fair?

It is the government that bought a f**king nightmare and these liabilites, noone else. And they say you get the representatives you deserve, so aye. You know what to do at the next election then, thats the point of them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 30, 2012, 08:17:18 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 30, 2012, 07:53:33 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 30, 2012, 04:57:18 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 03:59:43 PM
I've answered that already. Do you think the government can pick and choose what they want with regards to the bank guarantee?
It is too late to moan about the guarantee. The horse has left the stables. Should every poster resident in Ireland have to chip in? Do you think that is fair?

It is the government that bought a f**king nightmare and these liabilites, noone else. And they say you get the representatives you deserve, so aye. You know what to do at the next election then, thats the point of them.


That's what the last election was for. It wasn't this govt that introduced the bank guarantee.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: firestarter on July 30, 2012, 09:32:54 PM
As far as I can see the Pro SQ lobby believe that he was duped into investing in Anglo. If this is the case then those con men responsible should be brought to justice. But what then of quinn? Do they suggest that his own illegal actions since should be pardoned and he should be allowed to keep the millions he owes to the irish taxpayer? I would like Father Brian Darcey, Mickey Harte etc.. to answer that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 30, 2012, 09:39:03 PM
Sean Quinn should be punished for whatever his involvment is. I don't think anyone has said any other. But the point would be that if ( Again this is if) they win they're cases, they won't owe the taxpayer.

Not sure what answer MH and Fr D'arcy would give tho.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: saffron sam2 on July 30, 2012, 10:55:59 PM
I'm not sure why a bankrupt businessman and another who reckons there are no legitimate businesses in Culloville are considered appropriate to appear as part of the Quinn support regime.

Nor do I like the overt linking of the GAA to the Quinn corner.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:15:34 AM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on July 30, 2012, 10:55:59 PM
I'm not sure why a bankrupt businessman and another who reckons there are no legitimate businesses in Culloville are considered appropriate to appear as part of the Quinn support regime.

Nor do I like the overt linking of the GAA to the Quinn corner.

How is it overt?

His brother was a GAA president and he strikes a cord with a lot of the working class in the border region, so he is going to draw support from people involved in the GAA. Where you opposed to John O'Mahoney/ Peter Fitz running for the Dail whilst still managers? Plenty of GAA men have thrown their weight behind political and social movements down through the years, why do you feel aggrieved by this situation?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on July 31, 2012, 07:05:08 AM
Quinn is a lot like Rangers FC.Both have gone from rags to riches as a result of shady practices,and both drew a large crowd of eejits to a small town last Sunday.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on July 31, 2012, 07:07:30 AM
Sorry that should have read riches to rags.Seriously,I'm astounded the likes of Mickey Harte,Sean Boylan and Colm O'Rourke lent their support to this charade.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 07:44:48 AM
Fine Gael MEP  and former GAA  president Sean Kelly has now offered his support to the Quinn campaign. It doesn't reflect well on the GAA to be linked with this IMO.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on July 31, 2012, 08:17:47 AM
Support for shameless Quinn is misplaced

FINTAN O'TOOLE

TAKE ALL the money raised this year by the cuts in child benefit. And from cutting the school clothing and footwear allowance. And all the cuts to jobseekers' benefit, rent supplement and fuel allowances for the elderly.

Throw in the restriction of one-parent family allowance to children under seven. Pile on all the cuts in back-to-education allowances and community employment schemes. Take all of that money from the pockets of the poorest people in Ireland this year and you still haven't reached the amount Seán Quinn agrees he owes the Irish taxpayer.

This is nothing to do with the €2.3 billion he borrowed from Anglo Irish Bank to buy its shares. This is the €455 million he borrowed to buy property – using that property as security. In all the noise and distraction, this much is undisputed: Quinn borrowed the money and put up the property assets as collateral. The State, however idiotically, took over that loan. Since Quinn can't pay it back, the Irish people now own those properties.

There is something else that is not in dispute: that Quinn is openly, flagrantly and quite proudly trying to hang on to this money that belongs to us. As he said on Sunday, he took a "very conscious decision" to do "everything in our power to take as many assets as we could". The basic intention is very simple – to transfer assets from the Irish people to the Quinn family.

Thus, for example, the status of Karen Woods, a part-time receptionist with Joe Duffy Motors in north Dublin, as recipient of one of the largest public salaries in Ireland. The lucky Karen, then the girlfriend (now the wife) of Seán Quinn jnr, was paid €320,297 after tax (the equivalent of at least €400,000) last year by a Russian company whose assets belong entirely to the Irish people.

This is more than twice what the Taoiseach is paid, with the added refinement that there is no evidence of what work Woods does in return for this salary. Every cent she got, and every euro of the €455 million, is money kept from a State that is, for example, struggling to provide services for young people with intellectual disabilities.

At the same time, but completely separately, every Irish person or business who takes out home, motor or commercial insurance is having to pay the price, quite literally, for Seán Quinn's mismanagement of his insurance business.

For at least the next 12 years, every time any of us takes out insurance, we will have to pay an extra 2 per cent to recoup the approximately €1.1 billion Quinn lost in his gamble on Quinn Insurance. Thus, even when we leave aside entirely the €2.3 billion Anglo loan, Quinn's actions are siphoning €1.5 billion from Irish taxpayers, consumers and businesses.

All of this is easy enough to understand. It is underpinned by one of the oldest of human desires, the lure of other people's money – in this case ours.

What's more difficult to fathom is the collusion of many respectable people in what Quinn is doing. His shamelessness is made possible by those who tell him that he has nothing to be ashamed of, that, on the contrary, he is the victim in all of this.

Why would 4,000 people turn out in Ballyconnell, Co Cavan, the other night to demand "justice" for the Quinns – though evidently not the kind of justice that would be meted out to someone who deprived the State of €4,550 instead of €455 million?

Why, for example, has Sinn Féin, supposed friend of the downtrodden, expressed its sympathy for Quinn (MP Michelle Gildernew tweeted her support)? Does it see no connection at all between his stripping of public assets and, for example, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin's complaints about cuts at Cavan General Hospital? How can Sinn Féin demand, as it does, that no one should be paid more than €100,000 a year from public funds while apparently being content for the public to pay Karen Woods four times that?

Fr Brian D'Arcy, who is supposed to be in the morality business, addressed the Ballyconnell rally and essentially credited Quinn with the creation of peace in our time: "He brought peace to the country by creating thousands of jobs."

Senior GAA figures such as Mickey Harte, Jarlath Burns, Seán Boylan and Colm O'Rourke threw that organisation's considerable authority behind Quinn's outright defiance of the courts and determination to hang on to public money. Thus, a formidable if unofficial nexus of Sinn Féin, the GAA and the church is giving Quinn comfort.

This desire to kiss the rod inflicting the pain is surely rooted in something older than the current fad for designer masochism – some twisted notion of ethnic and religious solidarity in which Quinn has to be protected because he's one of us – a Catholic, nationalist, GAA man.

It can't be imagined that our oppressors might go to Mass, wear open-necked shirts and support the GAA. But what can't be imagined either are the silent victims in all of this – the poor who pay for their master's gambles
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 31, 2012, 08:59:53 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 07:44:48 AM
Fine Gael MEP  and former GAA  president Sean Kelly has now offered his support to the Quinn campaign. It doesn't reflect well on the GAA to be linked with this IMO.

fcuk me, is no-one allowed to make a mistake in this god forsaken country?? Some of the comments from the detractors on this is stomach churningly sickening. The man got caught up in shady banking practices, offered to rectify the mess, was rebuked and the witch hunt began.

Those well known figures who support the Quinn debacle are well within their rights to do so and it's a credit to them to publicly show their support.

It's very clear to many people that the Quinn Group has not had a fair hearing and not been dealt with in a fair manner as there have been too many questions still left unanswered yet their are being called in front of the Irish courts and being treated like public enemy no. 1  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 07:44:48 AM
Fine Gael MEP  and former GAA  president Sean Kelly has now offered his support to the Quinn campaign. It doesn't reflect well on the GAA to be linked with this IMO.

How does it reflect on Fine Gael?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on July 31, 2012, 08:59:53 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 07:44:48 AM
Fine Gael MEP  and former GAA  president Sean Kelly has now offered his support to the Quinn campaign. It doesn't reflect well on the GAA to be linked with this IMO.

fcuk me, is no-one allowed to make a mistake in this god forsaken country?? Some of the comments from the detractors on this is stomach churningly sickening. The man got caught up in shady banking practices, offered to rectify the mess, was rebuked and the witch hunt began.

Those well known figures who support the Quinn debacle are well within their rights to do so and it's a credit to them to publicly show their support.

It's very clear to many people that the Quinn Group has not had a fair hearing and not been dealt with in a fair manner as there have been too many questions still left unanswered yet their are being called in front of the Irish courts and being treated like public enemy no. 1  >:(

The reason I don't think it reflects well on the GAA is because I don't think these people are supporting Quinn out of support for his banking/shares/CFD practices. They're supporting him because of his and his families ties to the GAA. It makes the GAA look parochial, insular and all about protecting "our own".
Maybe that's what the GAA is, and I just haven't seen it displayed this publicly before....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 09:14:00 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 07:44:48 AM
Fine Gael MEP  and former GAA  president Sean Kelly has now offered his support to the Quinn campaign. It doesn't reflect well on the GAA to be linked with this IMO.

How does it reflect on Fine Gael?

Not particularly well, but you'd have to think this is coming from "Sean Kelly former GAA president", rather than "Sean Kelly Fine Gael MEP".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 09:32:32 AM
I'd say it's coming from Sean Kelly, the individual. The people who were speaking the last night were not speaking on behalf of the GAA, nor is Sean Kelly I would imagine. Personally I think it reflects well on them, that they are prepared to go on record to support the Quinns. But I can understand why you would think otherwise. I suppose it depends what way you view the whole process.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 09:34:15 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 09:14:00 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 07:44:48 AM
Fine Gael MEP  and former GAA  president Sean Kelly has now offered his support to the Quinn campaign. It doesn't reflect well on the GAA to be linked with this IMO.

How does it reflect on Fine Gael?

Not particularly well, but you'd have to think this is coming from "Sean Kelly former GAA president", rather than "Sean Kelly Fine Gael MEP".

Why?

My initial reaction was that this was a sitting MEP for FG and he was speaking from his current public office. Is it FG policy to support Sean Quinn?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 09:43:12 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 09:34:15 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 09:14:00 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 09:00:17 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 07:44:48 AM
Fine Gael MEP  and former GAA  president Sean Kelly has now offered his support to the Quinn campaign. It doesn't reflect well on the GAA to be linked with this IMO.

How does it reflect on Fine Gael?

Not particularly well, but you'd have to think this is coming from "Sean Kelly former GAA president", rather than "Sean Kelly Fine Gael MEP".

Why?

My initial reaction was that this was a sitting MEP for FG and he was speaking from his current public office. Is it FG policy to support Sean Quinn?

I doubt FG have a policy on Sean Quinn ;)
But other FG TDs have "distanced themselves" from Sean Kelly's comments - I would say the majority within FG wouldn't agree with Sean Kelly but I have no idea to be honest.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 10:05:04 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 09:32:32 AM
I'd say it's coming from Sean Kelly, the individual. The people who were speaking the last night were not speaking on behalf of the GAA, nor is Sean Kelly I would imagine. Personally I think it reflects well on them, that they are prepared to go on record to support the Quinns. But I can understand why you would think otherwise. I suppose it depends what way you view the whole process.

Totally agree with you and was just being a bit of a bollox with Tubberman to make my point that these individuals were speaking from a personal point of view and in no way represent the GAA, just as Seany Kelly in no way was representing FG or the GAA.

The GAA may have given these people a public profile, but that's it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 10:07:43 AM
Time was every GAA club were going on marches in support of the hunger strikers.

What was this about ?.

Club delegations were being sent to Crossmaglen in support of Crossmaglen club and protesting about the occupation of Cross's pitch by the Brits.

What was that about ?.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 10:18:44 AM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 10:07:43 AM
Time was every GAA club were going on marches in support of the hunger strikers.

What was this about ?.

Club delegations were being sent to Crossmaglen in support of Crossmaglen club and protesting about the occupation of Cross's pitch by the Brits.

What was that about ?.



Can you explain how either of those are in any way comparable to Sean Quinn's case?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on July 31, 2012, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 10:07:43 AM
Time was every GAA club were going on marches in support of the hunger strikers.

That never happened.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 10:24:12 AM
QuoteTime was every GAA club were going on marches in support of the hunger strikers.

Orangeman - can you let me know when my club, Mostrim in Co. Longford, went on a march in support of the hunger strikers.

I don't need the exact day - the month will be sufficient. The route it took would be helpful to me also.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 10:30:52 AM
Quote from: Hardy on July 31, 2012, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 10:07:43 AM
Time was every GAA club were going on marches in support of the hunger strikers.

That never happened.

Alright then - not every GAA club but certainly those in the North did. You lads were happy enough to let us at it.  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: glens abu on July 31, 2012, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 10:24:12 AM
QuoteTime was every GAA club were going on marches in support of the hunger strikers.

Orangeman - can you let me know when my club, Mostrim in Co. Longford, went on a march in support of the hunger strikers.

I don't need the exact day - the month will be sufficient. The route it took would be helpful to me also.

Don't be a dick,you know he meant the majority of clubs in Ulster.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 10:33:08 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 10:24:12 AM
QuoteTime was every GAA club were going on marches in support of the hunger strikers.

Orangeman - can you let me know when my club, Mostrim in Co. Longford, went on a march in support of the hunger strikers.

I don't need the exact day - the month will be sufficient. The route it took would be helpful to me also.


Did you or your club support Crossmaglen's cause back in the day ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 10:33:36 AM
Quote from: Hardy on July 31, 2012, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 10:07:43 AM
Time was every GAA club were going on marches in support of the hunger strikers.

That never happened.

Traitors!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hound on July 31, 2012, 10:38:12 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on July 31, 2012, 07:07:30 AM
Sorry that should have read riches to rags.Seriously,I'm astounded the likes of Mickey Harte,Sean Boylan and Colm O'Rourke lent their support to this charade.

The support has me totally bemused. Joe Kernan too. And of course they are doing it as individuals, but in the full knowledge that being big GAA personalties it will be highlighted in the media.

But I believe the reservoir dubs have something big planned for the Hill on Saturday to get things warmed up - working on a banner

"Jail Quinn....the big culchie"
:D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on July 31, 2012, 10:42:10 AM
They meant "Jack Quinn ...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 10:44:47 AM
It's a fair leap back from all GAA clubs to majority of clubs in Ulster.

Did our club support Crossmaglen's cause - of course they did. It was official GAA policy at the time to oppose the takeover by the British Army and I agreed with that stance.

I just object to paint brush comments here saying all GAA clubs marched in support of hunger strikers. I would even doubt that the majority of clubs in Ulster (I assume that this takes in Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal) did so - but if someone want to correct me with even the third cousin, once removed, of a fact then I will take their word for it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Declan on July 31, 2012, 08:17:47 AM
Support for shameless Quinn is misplaced

FINTAN O'TOOLE

I stopped reading when I got to that bit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 10:44:47 AM
It's a fair leap back from all GAA clubs to majority of clubs in Ulster.

Did our club support Crossmaglen's cause - of course they did. It was official GAA policy at the time to oppose the takeover by the British Army and I agreed with that stance.

I just object to paint brush comments here saying all GAA clubs marched in support of hunger strikers. I would even doubt that the majority of clubs in Ulster (I assume that this takes in Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal) did so - but if someone want to correct me with even the third cousin, once removed, of a fact then I will take their word for it.

Fair enough. Probably it was too much of a paint brush comment. But it's heartening to hear that your club supported the Crossmaglen cause.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Declan on July 31, 2012, 08:17:47 AM
Support for shameless Quinn is misplaced

FINTAN O'TOOLE

I stopped reading when I got to that bit.
Nothing like keeping a closed mind closed
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 11:01:38 AM
I'll give Seán Kelly this much. He's the only one big enough to publicly justify his decision (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/sean-quinn-prominent-figures-who-rallied-to-support-bankrupt-tycoon-duck-for-cover-3186263.html) to go to the rally.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 11:10:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Declan on July 31, 2012, 08:17:47 AM
Support for shameless Quinn is misplaced

FINTAN O'TOOLE

I stopped reading when I got to that bit.
Nothing like keeping a closed mind closed

A closed mind? If not wanting to waste my time reading the opinions of self important, arrogant, clueless liars and shite peddlers like Fintan O'Toole then guilty as charged I suppose.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 11:11:34 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on July 31, 2012, 11:00:07 AM
We're now comparing Sean Quinn & associates to the Irish Republican Hunger Strikers?

Jesus fuckin wept!

Some posters can't understand how GAA and GAA figures would rally to support Sean Quinn.

Plenty of GAA people and GAA clubs rallied to support different causes, different people and personalities whether formally or informally and this will continue to happen.

No bog deal who supports Quinn or anybody else. People will feel empathy towards different people, different causes.

It's surprises me that some posters feel surprised that the likes of Mickey Harte etc should support Sean Quinn, another GAA man.

Shock horror, a GAA man supports another GAA man. What next ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on July 31, 2012, 11:13:08 AM
Just because he's a GAA man?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 11:25:44 AM
Quote from: Hardy on July 31, 2012, 11:13:08 AM
Just because he's a GAA man?

And a christian.  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:26:27 AM
The support that Mickey Harte has recieved from fellow GAA people is bound to be of help in his families case. Why should he not be able to show support to another GAA man if he feels he deserves his support. Do I sense another North vs South thing going on here?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 11:30:40 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:26:27 AM
The support that Mickey Harte has recieved from fellow GAA people is bound to be of help in his families case. Why should he not be able to show support to another GAA man if he feels he deserves his support. Do I sense another North vs South thing going on here?

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 31, 2012, 11:34:11 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Declan on July 31, 2012, 08:17:47 AM
Support for shameless Quinn is misplaced

FINTAN O'TOOLE

I stopped reading when I got to that bit.

It is a case of FINTAN - OH TOOLBAG? with that D4-esque Anglophile prat.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:26:27 AM
The support that Mickey Harte has recieved from fellow GAA people is bound to be of help in his families case. Why should he not be able to show support to another GAA man if he feels he deserves his support. Do I sense another North vs South thing going on here?

In a word, No.  If you read my posts on this subject you will know that I've a bit of sympathy for the postion the Quinns find themselves in.  However they also played a significant role in putting themselves in the position they are now in.  While I've no problem with Mickey Harte as an individual supporting Sean Quinn, he and the rally organisers must have known that this would be protrayed as a "GAA Supports The Quinns" action.  The GAA as an organisation has no role to play in the events surrounding Sean Quinn's business and it would be dangerous, counter productive and detrimental to the association if it tried to find a role to play.  I'm a member of the GAA like SQ but I wouldn't expect or ask my home club to write to the bank manager if I couldn't pay back a loan.

The essence of the mistake that Harte, Burns, Darcy et al are making is that just because you create jobs, it does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want, and job creation itself should not be considered mitigation if you fall foul of the judicial process...and I'm from the North.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 11:45:30 AM
So Mickey Harte, Kernan and O'Rourke shouldn't have any opinions or be allowed to express them because they are GAA men, is that the case?

I wonder if these 3 came out in favour of Anglo would you same individuals be as outspoken of the GAA linking itself to the Anglo side?

Or is it just that you disagree with their stance, don't have the balls to say it and so play on their GAA connections as a reason to oppose them showing support for Quinn.

Answer that question before you reply.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 11:46:19 AM
I am no fan of Fintan O'Toole. He's as wet and windy as they come.

But, for pig iron's sake, read the article (even if it pains) and pick out where he has got his facts wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 11:49:20 AM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:26:27 AM
The support that Mickey Harte has recieved from fellow GAA people is bound to be of help in his families case. Why should he not be able to show support to another GAA man if he feels he deserves his support. Do I sense another North vs South thing going on here?

  The GAA as an organisation has no role to play in the events surrounding Sean Quinn's business and it would be dangerous, counter productive and detrimental to the association if it tried to find a role to play.


Since when did the GAA issue any statement of support for Quinn? This is an action by a few individual GAA members, what do you want them to do? have no opinions except with the one you want them to have? Where you as equally upset when Sean Kelly/John O'Mahoney/ Peter Fitzpatrick declared they were running for FG? How is that any different to the current situation?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 11:45:30 AM
So Mickey Harte, Kernan and O'Rourke shouldn't have any opinions or be allowed to express them because they are GAA men, is that the case?

I wonder if these 3 came out in favour of Anglo would you same individuals be as outspoken of the GAA linking itself to the Anglo side?

Or is it just that you disagree with their stance, don't have the balls to say it and so play on their GAA connections as a reason to oppose them showing support for Quinn.

Answer that question before you reply.

1. Absolutely, and probably more so.
2. I disagree with their stance, I have had the balls to say it if you can read, and the stance I'm talking about is them using their positions as prominent GAA figures to support something that the GAA has no business getting involved in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:53:05 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 11:45:30 AM
So Mickey Harte, Kernan and O'Rourke shouldn't have any opinions or be allowed to express them because they are GAA men, is that the case?

I wonder if these 3 came out in favour of Anglo would you same individuals be as outspoken of the GAA linking itself to the Anglo side?

Or is it just that you disagree with their stance, don't have the balls to say it and so play on their GAA connections as a reason to oppose them showing support for Quinn.

Answer that question before you reply.

1. Absolutely, and probably more so.
2. I disagree with their stance, I have had the balls to say it if you can read, and the stance I'm talking about is them using their positions as prominent GAA figures to support something that the GAA has no business getting involved in.

When did the GAA issue a statement? Did I miss it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 11:55:13 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 11:45:30 AM
So Mickey Harte, Kernan and O'Rourke shouldn't have any opinions or be allowed to express them because they are GAA men, is that the case?

I wonder if these 3 came out in favour of Anglo would you same individuals be as outspoken of the GAA linking itself to the Anglo side?

Or is it just that you disagree with their stance, don't have the balls to say it and so play on their GAA connections as a reason to oppose them showing support for Quinn.

Answer that question before you reply.

1. Absolutely, and probably more so.
2. I disagree with their stance, I have had the balls to say it if you can read, and the stance I'm talking about is them using their positions as prominent GAA figures to support something that the GAA has no business getting involved in.

And O'Mahoney/ Fitzpatrick/ Geraghty/ Kelly didn't use their position as prominent GAA figures to support something that the GAA has no business getting involved in? What about Galbally's commemorations of the hunger strikers? Or former Antrim hurlers running for the SDLP?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 11:55:51 AM
They're entitled to show support for Seán Quinn and I'm entitled to think less of them for doing so
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 11:57:59 AM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 11:55:51 AM
They're entitled to show support for Seán Quinn and I'm entitled to think less of them for doing so

Fair enough but that's different from what alot of posters are saying on here that they are not entitled to show support for Quinn such as Tubberman, Fionntamhnach, AQMP and Shamrock Shore.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:02:46 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:26:27 AM
The support that Mickey Harte has recieved from fellow GAA people is bound to be of help in his families case. Why should he not be able to show support to another GAA man if he feels he deserves his support. Do I sense another North vs South thing going on here?

In a word, No.  If you read my posts on this subject you will know that I've a bit of sympathy for the postion the Quinns find themselves in.  However they also played a significant role in putting themselves in the position they are now in.  While I've no problem with Mickey Harte as an individual supporting Sean Quinn, he and the rally organisers must have known that this would be protrayed as a "GAA Supports The Quinns" action.  The GAA as an organisation has no role to play in the events surrounding Sean Quinn's business and it would be dangerous, counter productive and detrimental to the association if it tried to find a role to play.  I'm a member of the GAA like SQ but I wouldn't expect or ask my home club to write to the bank manager if I couldn't pay back a loan.

The essence of the mistake that Harte, Burns, Darcy et al are making is that just because you create jobs, it does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want, and job creation itself should not be considered mitigation if you fall foul of the judicial process...and I'm from the North.

Did you miss this bit trileacman?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 12:05:29 PM
Put it forward as motion to next year's GAA annual congress and make it GAA policy and we can all support the Quinns as one big happy GAA family or not depending on the vote taken.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 12:07:21 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:02:46 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:26:27 AM
The support that Mickey Harte has recieved from fellow GAA people is bound to be of help in his families case. Why should he not be able to show support to another GAA man if he feels he deserves his support. Do I sense another North vs South thing going on here?

In a word, No.  If you read my posts on this subject you will know that I've a bit of sympathy for the postion the Quinns find themselves in.  However they also played a significant role in putting themselves in the position they are now in.  While I've no problem with Mickey Harte as an individual supporting Sean Quinn, he and the rally organisers must have known that this would be protrayed as a "GAA Supports The Quinns" action.  The GAA as an organisation has no role to play in the events surrounding Sean Quinn's business and it would be dangerous, counter productive and detrimental to the association if it tried to find a role to play.  I'm a member of the GAA like SQ but I wouldn't expect or ask my home club to write to the bank manager if I couldn't pay back a loan.

The essence of the mistake that Harte, Burns, Darcy et al are making is that just because you create jobs, it does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want, and job creation itself should not be considered mitigation if you fall foul of the judicial process...and I'm from the North.

Did you miss this bit trileacman?

Well in fairness Fionntamhnach, the rest of that sentence which you didn't put in bold gives the impression that trileacman is right. It reads as though you believe Harte has the right to support the Quinns, provided he doesn't let anyone know he does (or provided no other people who also happen to be GAA men, happen to support Quinn too).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 12:08:10 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 11:55:13 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 11:50:16 AM
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 11:45:30 AM
So Mickey Harte, Kernan and O'Rourke shouldn't have any opinions or be allowed to express them because they are GAA men, is that the case?

I wonder if these 3 came out in favour of Anglo would you same individuals be as outspoken of the GAA linking itself to the Anglo side?

Or is it just that you disagree with their stance, don't have the balls to say it and so play on their GAA connections as a reason to oppose them showing support for Quinn.

Answer that question before you reply.

1. Absolutely, and probably more so.
2. I disagree with their stance, I have had the balls to say it if you can read, and the stance I'm talking about is them using their positions as prominent GAA figures to support something that the GAA has no business getting involved in.

And O'Mahoney/ Fitzpatrick/ Geraghty/ Kelly didn't use their position as prominent GAA figures to support something that the GAA has no business getting involved in? What about Galbally's commemorations of the hunger strikers? Or former Antrim hurlers running for the SDLP?

Yes they did. Because they (or their parties) realised a lot of people will vote for them just because they are 'GAA men'. That was a cynical exercise to take advantage of the electorate in Ireland who rarely vote based on things like policy, it's more team based, whether that's GAA teams, or political teams like FG, FF, or SF.
It seems Sean Quinn and his people have realised this too and are following suit.
I don't know anything about Galbally or Antrim hurlers associations with SDLP so won't comment on that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
QuoteFair enough but that's different from what alot of posters are saying on here that they are not entitled to show support for Quinn such as Tubberman, Fionntamhnach, AQMP and Shamrock Shore

Likewise point out my post where I have even mentioned the individuals that are now being discussed, let alone say that they are not entitled to show their support.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:09:42 PM
For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 12:12:41 PM
If it was Mickey Harte on his own, you could say it was in his personal capacity.
If it was Sean Boylan on his own, you could say it was in his personal capacity.
If it was Colm O'Rourke on his own,....
If it was Joe Kernan on his own,....
If it was Sean Kelly on his own,....

If you put them all together and they have one thing in common i.e. prominent GAA figures, are they still a collection of individuals?

If you had the same number of FG/FF/SF TDs coming out in support but saying they were speaking in a personal capacity, do you think that is how it would be perceived in the media and by the general public?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:14:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 11:11:34 AM
.
Shock horror, a GAA man supports another GAA man.

Some years back two high enough profile GAA men were jailed for sexually abusing minors.
I don't think too many GAA men rushed to support them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:14:51 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 12:07:21 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:02:46 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:26:27 AM
The support that Mickey Harte has recieved from fellow GAA people is bound to be of help in his families case. Why should he not be able to show support to another GAA man if he feels he deserves his support. Do I sense another North vs South thing going on here?

In a word, No.  If you read my posts on this subject you will know that I've a bit of sympathy for the postion the Quinns find themselves in.  However they also played a significant role in putting themselves in the position they are now in.  While I've no problem with Mickey Harte as an individual supporting Sean Quinn, he and the rally organisers must have known that this would be protrayed as a "GAA Supports The Quinns" action.  The GAA as an organisation has no role to play in the events surrounding Sean Quinn's business and it would be dangerous, counter productive and detrimental to the association if it tried to find a role to play.  I'm a member of the GAA like SQ but I wouldn't expect or ask my home club to write to the bank manager if I couldn't pay back a loan.

The essence of the mistake that Harte, Burns, Darcy et al are making is that just because you create jobs, it does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want, and job creation itself should not be considered mitigation if you fall foul of the judicial process...and I'm from the North.

Did you miss this bit trileacman?

Well in fairness Fionntamhnach, the rest of that sentence which you didn't put in bold gives the impression that trileacman is right. It reads as though you believe Harte has the right to support the Quinns, provided he doesn't let anyone know he does (or provided no other people who also happen to be GAA men, happen to support Quinn too).

Exactly to summarise what you said there was "I've no problem with Mickey Harte as an individual supporting Sean Quinn - but actually I do". If you have no qualms with Harte supporting Quinn then what is the rest of your post trying to say? You believe Quinn has a great degree of culpability but how does that relate to Harte, Kernan etc showing support to Quinn?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:17:15 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 12:07:21 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:02:46 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:26:27 AM
The support that Mickey Harte has recieved from fellow GAA people is bound to be of help in his families case. Why should he not be able to show support to another GAA man if he feels he deserves his support. Do I sense another North vs South thing going on here?

In a word, No.  If you read my posts on this subject you will know that I've a bit of sympathy for the postion the Quinns find themselves in.  However they also played a significant role in putting themselves in the position they are now in.  While I've no problem with Mickey Harte as an individual supporting Sean Quinn, he and the rally organisers must have known that this would be protrayed as a "GAA Supports The Quinns" action.  The GAA as an organisation has no role to play in the events surrounding Sean Quinn's business and it would be dangerous, counter productive and detrimental to the association if it tried to find a role to play.  I'm a member of the GAA like SQ but I wouldn't expect or ask my home club to write to the bank manager if I couldn't pay back a loan.

The essence of the mistake that Harte, Burns, Darcy et al are making is that just because you create jobs, it does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want, and job creation itself should not be considered mitigation if you fall foul of the judicial process...and I'm from the North.

Did you miss this bit trileacman?

Well in fairness Fionntamhnach, the rest of that sentence which you didn't put in bold gives the impression that trileacman is right. It reads as though you believe Harte has the right to support the Quinns, provided he doesn't let anyone know he does (or provided no other people who also happen to be GAA men, happen to support Quinn too).

That was actually me Nally.  My concern is that in publicity terms the GAA will likely be painted with a pro-Quinn brush (when the association is neither pro nor anti Quinn).  I expect Harte and the rest were there as individuals, but there is a danger that people looking in see "Mickey Harte of the GAA"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:14:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 11:11:34 AM
.
Shock horror, a GAA man supports another GAA man.

Some years back two high enough profile GAA men were jailed for sexually abusing minors.
I don't think too many GAA men rushed to support them.

Remember the man convicted of rape in Listowel 2 years ago and there was queue formed in the court and the Kerry lads all lined up to shake his hand. There was a few "GAA" supporters in that queue.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 12:22:10 PM
Trileacman

Don't forget to answer my quesion to you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:22:20 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:14:51 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 12:07:21 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:02:46 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:26:27 AM
The support that Mickey Harte has recieved from fellow GAA people is bound to be of help in his families case. Why should he not be able to show support to another GAA man if he feels he deserves his support. Do I sense another North vs South thing going on here?

In a word, No.  If you read my posts on this subject you will know that I've a bit of sympathy for the postion the Quinns find themselves in.  However they also played a significant role in putting themselves in the position they are now in.  While I've no problem with Mickey Harte as an individual supporting Sean Quinn, he and the rally organisers must have known that this would be protrayed as a "GAA Supports The Quinns" action.  The GAA as an organisation has no role to play in the events surrounding Sean Quinn's business and it would be dangerous, counter productive and detrimental to the association if it tried to find a role to play.  I'm a member of the GAA like SQ but I wouldn't expect or ask my home club to write to the bank manager if I couldn't pay back a loan.

The essence of the mistake that Harte, Burns, Darcy et al are making is that just because you create jobs, it does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want, and job creation itself should not be considered mitigation if you fall foul of the judicial process...and I'm from the North.

Did you miss this bit trileacman?

Well in fairness Fionntamhnach, the rest of that sentence which you didn't put in bold gives the impression that trileacman is right. It reads as though you believe Harte has the right to support the Quinns, provided he doesn't let anyone know he does (or provided no other people who also happen to be GAA men, happen to support Quinn too).

Exactly to summarise what you said there was "I've no problem with Mickey Harte as an individual supporting Sean Quinn - but actually I do". If you have no qualms with Harte supporting Quinn then what is the rest of your post trying to say? You believe Quinn has a great degree of culpability but how does that relate to Harte, Kernan etc showing support to Quinn?

Er, no.

BTW is it clear what exactly are they "supporting"?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 12:22:45 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:14:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 11:11:34 AM
.
Shock horror, a GAA man supports another GAA man.

Some years back two high enough profile GAA men were jailed for sexually abusing minors.
I don't think too many GAA men rushed to support them.

Remember the man convicted of rape in Listowel 2 years ago and there was queue formed in the court and the Kerry lads all lined up to shake his hand. There was a few "GAA" supporters in that queue.
And you have no problem with that?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:27:19 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 12:12:41 PM
If it was Mickey Harte on his own, you could say it was in his personal capacity.
If it was Sean Boylan on his own, you could say it was in his personal capacity.
If it was Colm O'Rourke on his own,....
If it was Joe Kernan on his own,....
If it was Sean Kelly on his own,....

If you put them all together and they have one thing in common i.e. prominent GAA figures, are they still a collection of individuals?


So those men are just GAA men and that's all their is to it? Sean Kelly is a politician nowadays not a president so his headline would read FG mep backs Quinn. Should Harte, Kernan have said to themselves "Boylan and O'Rourke are backing Quinn publicly so I shouldn't publicly back him even though I would like to"?

QuoteIf you had the same number of FG/FF/SF TDs coming out in support but saying they were speaking in a personal capacity, do you think that is how it would be perceived in the media and by the general public?

So if a TD felt compelled to support a countryman, a friend or a constituent he should waver in his support because of the way it would be perceived in the media and by the general public? Say for example a TD felt opposed to the bank guarantee or the Corrib gas line or Ireland's involvement in the Congo or Lebanon you believe he should hide his opinions as it would be perceived negatively by the media and general public?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 12:29:03 PM
Apologies AQMP and Fionntamhnach for the mix up. Must be cross-eyed this afternoon.

But anyway, I'm just pointing out AQMP, that your claim to have no problem with Harte supporting the Quinn's as an individual is a bit flawed when it seems clear from your quote that your tolerance for such support doesn't extend as far as seeing Harte as much as telling anyone he supports them; or to him supporting them if any other GAA people happen to support them too.

There is nothing to stop any GAA personality speaking out against the Quinn's after all. I can't help but think sometimes people can be very precious about this kind of thing. The GAA will not collapse in the morning if a few people (let's be honest, it's only going to be a tiny naive few) honestly do fully believe that those men were in Ballyconnell on behalf of the GAA.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 12:29:48 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 12:22:45 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 12:21:05 PM
Remember the man convicted of rape in Listowel 2 years ago and there was queue formed in the court and the Kerry lads all lined up to shake his hand. There was a few "GAA" supporters in that queue.
And you have no problem with that?

I'd like an answer to that question too
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:29:56 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 12:22:10 PM
Trileacman

Don't forget to answer my quesion to you.

Do you believe that the GAA men at Quinns rally are entitled to support him?

Same question to the other posters who said something along SS lines.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 12:31:32 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 12:22:45 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:14:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 11:11:34 AM
.
Shock horror, a GAA man supports another GAA man.

Some years back two high enough profile GAA men were jailed for sexually abusing minors.
I don't think too many GAA men rushed to support them.

Remember the man convicted of rape in Listowel 2 years ago and there was queue formed in the court and the Kerry lads all lined up to shake his hand. There was a few "GAA" supporters in that queue.
And you have no problem with that?

You serious about that ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:33:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 12:29:03 PM
Apologies AQMP and Fionntamhnach for the mix up. Must be cross-eyed this afternoon.

But anyway, I'm just pointing out AQMP, that your claim to have no problem with Harte supporting the Quinn's as an individual is a bit flawed when it seems clear from your quote that your tolerance for such support doesn't extend as far as seeing Harte as much as telling anyone he supports them; or to him supporting them if any other GAA people happen to support them too.

There is nothing to stop any GAA personality speaking out against the Quinn's after all. I can't help but think sometimes people can be very precious about this kind of thing. The GAA will not collapse in the morning if a few people (let's be honest, it's only going to be a tiny naive few) honestly do fully believe that those men were in Ballyconnell on behalf of the GAA.

Don't worry I've been called a lot worse than Fionntamhnach in my day.

On your second point, I don't see it like that, but we'll agree to differ.  I expect Mickey Harte doesn't give a rattlers what I think anyway!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 12:35:51 PM
Just in the nature of balance here's a nice article with quotes from a GAA person slamming SQ support.

http://www.herald.ie/news/gaa-celebs-slammed-for-backing-quinn-as-4000-turn-out-for-rally-3183936.html

Now I'm a Quinn supporter so I don't agree with his views. But he's entitled to have them. And I don't take it as representative of the GAA that everyone is anti-Quinn just because of his comments.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 12:36:51 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:33:05 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 12:29:03 PM
Apologies AQMP and Fionntamhnach for the mix up. Must be cross-eyed this afternoon.

But anyway, I'm just pointing out AQMP, that your claim to have no problem with Harte supporting the Quinn's as an individual is a bit flawed when it seems clear from your quote that your tolerance for such support doesn't extend as far as seeing Harte as much as telling anyone he supports them; or to him supporting them if any other GAA people happen to support them too.

There is nothing to stop any GAA personality speaking out against the Quinn's after all. I can't help but think sometimes people can be very precious about this kind of thing. The GAA will not collapse in the morning if a few people (let's be honest, it's only going to be a tiny naive few) honestly do fully believe that those men were in Ballyconnell on behalf of the GAA.

Don't worry I've been called a lot worse than Fionntamhnach in my day.

On your second point, I don't see it like that, but we'll agree to differ.  I expect Mickey Harte doesn't give a rattlers what I think anyway!

Funny you should say, Fionntamhnach just PM'd me to say he's been called a lot of things in his life but if I ever called him AQMP, he'd rip the head off me.  :P Only joking of course lol
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:38:16 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:17:15 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on July 31, 2012, 12:07:21 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:02:46 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 11:40:17 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 11:26:27 AM
The support that Mickey Harte has recieved from fellow GAA people is bound to be of help in his families case. Why should he not be able to show support to another GAA man if he feels he deserves his support. Do I sense another North vs South thing going on here?

In a word, No.  If you read my posts on this subject you will know that I've a bit of sympathy for the postion the Quinns find themselves in.  However they also played a significant role in putting themselves in the position they are now in.  While I've no problem with Mickey Harte as an individual supporting Sean Quinn, he and the rally organisers must have known that this would be protrayed as a "GAA Supports The Quinns" action.  The GAA as an organisation has no role to play in the events surrounding Sean Quinn's business and it would be dangerous, counter productive and detrimental to the association if it tried to find a role to play.  I'm a member of the GAA like SQ but I wouldn't expect or ask my home club to write to the bank manager if I couldn't pay back a loan.

The essence of the mistake that Harte, Burns, Darcy et al are making is that just because you create jobs, it does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want, and job creation itself should not be considered mitigation if you fall foul of the judicial process...and I'm from the North.

Did you miss this bit trileacman?

Well in fairness Fionntamhnach, the rest of that sentence which you didn't put in bold gives the impression that trileacman is right. It reads as though you believe Harte has the right to support the Quinns, provided he doesn't let anyone know he does (or provided no other people who also happen to be GAA men, happen to support Quinn too).

That was actually me Nally.  My concern is that in publicity terms the GAA will likely be painted with a pro-Quinn brush (when the association is neither pro nor anti Quinn).  I expect Harte and the rest were there as individuals, but there is a danger that people looking in see "Mickey Harte of the GAA"

Perhaps it will be painted with that brush but what world would you rather live in. One where GAA men are banned from publicly expressing their opinions on Non-GAA matters to protect the image of the GAA or a world where amatuer GAA managers, ex managers and ex players have the freedom to express their opinions.

I don't like GAA men running for FG or SF heavy involvement with Tyrone GAA but at the same time I'd rather have a world where people are free to do that than one where involvement in the GAA restricts your right to express their own opinions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 12:38:28 PM
Hang on Trilecman.

I am not going to answer your question as I have deliberately avoided bringing these GAA names into my comments on Quinn and his shennanigans.

What I want is a retraction from you saying that I am of the opinion that the likes of Mickey Harte et al are not entitled to their opinion. I never said this nor would I.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 12:31:32 PM
You serious about that ?

You said "Shock horror, a GAA man supports another GAA man", the implication being there was something inherently noble in defending a GAA man. So when those lads queued up to shake Danny Foley's hand, would you have thought it was okay to have claimed they were GAA men supporting another GAA man?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:39:58 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 12:35:51 PM
Just in the nature of balance here's a nice article with quotes from a GAA person slamming SQ support.

http://www.herald.ie/news/gaa-celebs-slammed-for-backing-quinn-as-4000-turn-out-for-rally-3183936.html

Now I'm a Quinn supporter so I don't agree with his views. But he's entitled to have them. And I don't take it as representative of the GAA that everyone is anti-Quinn just because of his comments.

f**king, West Brit lick-arse dragging the name of the GAA through the gutter.  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 12:12:41 PM
If it was Mickey Harte on his own, you could say it was in his personal capacity.
If it was Sean Boylan on his own, you could say it was in his personal capacity.
If it was Colm O'Rourke on his own,....
If it was Joe Kernan on his own,....
If it was Sean Kelly on his own,....

If you put them all together and they have one thing in common i.e. prominent GAA figures, are they still a collection of individuals?

If you had the same number of FG/FF/SF TDs coming out in support but saying they were speaking in a personal capacity, do you think that is how it would be perceived in the media and by the general public?

There's a good chance a lot of them are members of the Catholic church, does it back Quinn as well? They may even be members of a teachers union, Farmers union, I don't know, are they speaking for those organisations as well?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 12:45:17 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 12:44:07 PM
There's a good chance a lot of them are members of the Catholic church, does it back Quinn as well? They may even be members of a teachers union, Farmers union, I don't know, are they speaking for those organisations as well?

I wonder how the PTAA feel about it all
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on July 31, 2012, 12:46:12 PM
As this has run on and on, I've forgotten the question. 

The Rally in Ballyconnell was in support of Sean Quinn.  Support in what?  In the bit from Mickey Harte, he was talking about a leaflet that gives the true story. Does anyone have a copy of this leaflet?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 12:46:47 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 12:31:32 PM
You serious about that ?

You said "Shock horror, a GAA man supports another GAA man", the implication being there was something inherently noble in defending a GAA man. So when those lads queued up to shake Danny Foley's hand, would you have thought it was okay to have claimed they were GAA men supporting another GAA man?

No such implication was made.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:47:05 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 12:38:28 PM
Hang on Trileacman.

I am not going to answer your question as I have deliberately avoided bringing these GAA names into my comments on Quinn and his shennanigans.

What I want is a retraction from you saying that I am of the opinion that the likes of Mickey Harte et al are not entitled to their opinion. I never said this nor would I.

If you say you are not of the opinion that the GAA men are in the wrong here then I will retract my post and apologise for jumping the gun. However if you refuse to acknowledge a GAA person's right to express their opinion then my original post still stands.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on July 31, 2012, 12:48:40 PM
This is getting a good bit off subject. The rally was asking the government to step in to prevent any further selling of the Quinn's assets until the court case regarding the loans is settled.

The Quinn group is not disputing the assets already taken from them as this would cover the area of the loans that they are not disputing.

If AIB sell on these assets and the loans are found legal then the Tax payer has to give the Quinn's back the money that AIB received off them again hitting the tax payer

If the loans are found to be legal then AIB can sell away and recover assets until they are all gone.

Quinn's look to have a good case as the recent arrests of AIB bigwigs prove
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 12:51:34 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:47:05 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 12:38:28 PM
Hang on Trileacman.

I am not going to answer your question as I have deliberately avoided bringing these GAA names into my comments on Quinn and his shennanigans.

What I want is a retraction from you saying that I am of the opinion that the likes of Mickey Harte et al are not entitled to their opinion. I never said this nor would I.

If you say you are not of the opinion that the GAA men are in the wrong here then I will retract my post and apologise for jumping the gun. However if you refuse to acknowledge a GAA person's right to express their opinion then my original post still stands.
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:47:05 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 12:38:28 PM
Hang on Trileacman.

I am not going to answer your question as I have deliberately avoided bringing these GAA names into my comments on Quinn and his shennanigans.

What I want is a retraction from you saying that I am of the opinion that the likes of Mickey Harte et al are not entitled to their opinion. I never said this nor would I.

If you say you are not of the opinion that the GAA men are in the wrong here then I will retract my post and apologise for jumping the gun. However if you refuse to acknowledge a GAA person's right to express their opinion then my original post still stands.

These men have a right to express their opinion in any way they see fit, but in no way are they speaking for the GAA or representative of GAA members.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 12:54:06 PM
I'd venture to say that I'm of the same mind of a lot of people when I say that Colm O'Rourke, Joe Kernan, Mickey Harte and whoever else are entitled to show their support for any cause they want. However the lazy media reporting that seeks to imply that the GAA as an organisation supports the cause is what upsets me. That's not the fault of the individuals unless they try to claim that they are there in anything other than a personal capacity, but it's no less frustrating for that.


Regarding Oisínóg's post, I find it remarkable that we have this huge demonstration asking for Quinn assets not to be disposed of - but if the banks seize the assets and later down the line it's deemed to be wrong, those moves can be reversed. It's only the Quinns themselves who seem to want to dispose of assets in an irreversable fashion.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 12:54:19 PM
When all is said and done, the rally will not have made anybody in the government say hold on a minute, it's time we intervened here and stopped he wholesale selling of the Quinn group assets as high profile GAA figures have lent their support.


High profile GAA figures attending a protest march over the closure of your local hospital is likely to attract the same response - none !.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bingo on July 31, 2012, 12:55:41 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 12:12:41 PM
If it was Mickey Harte on his own, you could say it was in his personal capacity.
If it was Sean Boylan on his own, you could say it was in his personal capacity.
If it was Colm O'Rourke on his own,....
If it was Joe Kernan on his own,....
If it was Sean Kelly on his own,....

If you put them all together and they have one thing in common i.e. prominent GAA figures, are they still a collection of individuals?

If you had the same number of FG/FF/SF TDs coming out in support but saying they were speaking in a personal capacity, do you think that is how it would be perceived in the media and by the general public?

There's a good chance a lot of them are members of the Catholic church, does it back Quinn as well? They may even be members of a teachers union, Farmers union, I don't know, are they speaking for those organisations as well?

Its easy to be dismissive of who they are or who they are perceived to do. The reality is if they were Mickey Harte, school teacher from Tyrone, Colm O'Rourke, school principal from Meath, Joe Kernan, estate agent from Armagh, etc etc they'd have not been asked to attend the rally or appear on stage. They were asked to be there cause they are high profile GAA personalties and such GAA personalties would be reflective of the core of the Quinns support base.

They weren't there representing the GAA but they were there cause they are GAA representatives. But at end of the day, it was their own personal choice to attend and its up to ourselves and the media to draw the connections from them to the GAA, which is what the organisers of the rally wanted. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:56:10 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on July 31, 2012, 12:46:12 PM
As this has run on and on, I've forgotten the question. 

The Rally in Ballyconnell was in support of Sean Quinn.  Support in what?  In the bit from Mickey Harte, he was talking about a leaflet that gives the true story. Does anyone have a copy of this leaflet?

I think it's about supporting Quinn in his action against Anglo. Quinn believes he was unfairly treated by Anglo and they pulled the rug from under his feet, faulted his loans, seized his assets and are now out to portray the family as crooks who are defrauding the Irishman in the dole queue.

That's just my take on it though and I have to make it clear that my views do not represent the Trillick GAA, Tyrone GAA or the national GAA body. I am not expressing the opinion for all members of the UFU or Irvinestown credit union. I would ask the media not to protray the St Scires class of 1995 in a negative light either.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:59:27 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:56:10 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on July 31, 2012, 12:46:12 PM
As this has run on and on, I've forgotten the question. 

The Rally in Ballyconnell was in support of Sean Quinn.  Support in what?  In the bit from Mickey Harte, he was talking about a leaflet that gives the true story. Does anyone have a copy of this leaflet?

I think it's about supporting Quinn in his action against Anglo. Quinn believes he was unfairly treated by Anglo and they pulled the rug from under his feet, faulted his loans, seized his assets and are now out to portray the family as crooks who are defrauding the Irishman in the dole queue.

That's just my take on it though and I have to make it clear that my views do not represent the Trillick GAA, Tyrone GAA or the national GAA body. I am not expressing the opinion for all members of the UFU or Irvinestown credit union. I would ask the media not to protray the St Scires class of 1995 in a negative light either.

Just as long as we don't read tomorrow..."Well known GAA Board poster trileacman, speaking for all posters, expressed his support for Mr Quinn..." ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 01:03:01 PM
Quote from: AQMP on July 31, 2012, 12:59:27 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:56:10 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on July 31, 2012, 12:46:12 PM
As this has run on and on, I've forgotten the question. 

The Rally in Ballyconnell was in support of Sean Quinn.  Support in what?  In the bit from Mickey Harte, he was talking about a leaflet that gives the true story. Does anyone have a copy of this leaflet?

I think it's about supporting Quinn in his action against Anglo. Quinn believes he was unfairly treated by Anglo and they pulled the rug from under his feet, faulted his loans, seized his assets and are now out to portray the family as crooks who are defrauding the Irishman in the dole queue.

That's just my take on it though and I have to make it clear that my views do not represent the Trillick GAA, Tyrone GAA or the national GAA body. I am not expressing the opinion for all members of the UFU or Irvinestown credit union. I would ask the media not to protray the St Scires class of 1995 in a negative light either.

Just as long as we don't read tomorrow..."Well known GAA Board poster trileacman, speaking for all posters, expressed his support for Mr Quinn..." ;)

I can only hope!! Likely to spark a reprisal from the continuity GAA board movement!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 01:03:16 PM
QuoteIf you say you are not of the opinion that the GAA men are in the wrong here then I will retract my post and apologise for jumping the gun

OK - for the record, Harte, O'Rourke et al can march for whomever, whatever they like. They can support Quinn, they can support Fianna Fail, SDLP, Monster Raving Looney Party, Scientology. I don't care. They are entitled to their opinion or to believe in what they want.

I simply took grave exception to you saying that I said something that I never said, nor alluded to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: winghalfun on July 31, 2012, 01:26:22 PM
10, 15, 20 years ago, discovering a name in Stubbs Gazette was whispered in hushed tones among the public house glitterati, the after mass smokers collectives or the big fair day farmers' mart.

For some it was/is an inevitable and only way out of a hole. For others it was/is an excuse.

It is mark of how society is shifting its values in that today bankruptcy and being bankrupt no longer attracts the stigma that it once did.

And just as society askewed its disposition towards wealth and wealth creation so too has the line between accountability and dereliction been seriously cast aside.

Sean Quinn's case is no different than the 100's of other cases of bankruptcy's taking place week in week out throughout Ireland in these recessionary times apart from the sheer scale of the numbers involved and the fact it is being dragged out in the full glare of the media spotlight.

Like many before him and many that will come after, accounts will be closed, deeds altered, money transferred before the proverbial hits the fan. For some this will involve a few £1000 for some a few £100 and for some a few £1,000,000.

Sean Quinn has openly admitted doing the same. Anglo are coming after him. - To the victor the spoils.

I personally have a very simple take on the whole thing.
Sean Quinn still owes some money. He hasn't paid it all but has the means to pay some more. He is refusing. That is a moral decision that he must make.
I don't really care if he pays it or not because just as he has no interest in my life, I have no interest in his.

But just as we effortlessly allowed our economy to lapse into a cycle of greed and unfettered expansion we are now insulating failure and recklessness with the some sort of abandonment.

I have credit cards debts of £5000, a relatively small mortgage of £20000 and a personal loan of £7000 that cost me £685 a month in repayments.
How I would love to borrow another £25685, go into a casino and put it all on red secure in the knowledge that I should never have got the £25685 in the first place and I won't have to pay it back.
If I win. Well that's a different story. (Maybe I will have just one more go)

Never has this quote from John Paul Getty been more appropriate.
"If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on July 31, 2012, 01:30:13 PM
Quote from: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 12:56:10 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on July 31, 2012, 12:46:12 PM
As this has run on and on, I've forgotten the question. 

The Rally in Ballyconnell was in support of Sean Quinn.  Support in what?  In the bit from Mickey Harte, he was talking about a leaflet that gives the true story. Does anyone have a copy of this leaflet?

That's just my take on it though and I have to make it clear that my views do not represent the Trillick GAA, Tyrone GAA or the national GAA body. I am not expressing the opinion for all members of the UFU or Irvinestown credit union. I would ask the media not to protray the St Scires class of 1995 in a negative light either.

quality!!  ???   ;D 

Never has this quote from John Paul Getty been more appropriate.
"If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem."


Because they shouldn't have given it to you in the first place!!!  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on July 31, 2012, 01:38:41 PM
I would love to see a rally like this as support on one hand yes for Sean Quinn undoubtedly, but also the start of a mobilisation movement against the government mismanagement of the banking problems, the lack of legal action on those responsible for running the banks into insolvency and the lack of responsibility taken on the part of the Banking and Government for their shady alliance which has put the the fallout onto the taxpayer, business people, property developers etc. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 02:09:40 PM
Quote from: rrhf on July 31, 2012, 01:38:41 PM
I would love to see a rally like this as support on one hand yes for Sean Quinn undoubtedly, but also the start of a mobilisation movement against the government mismanagement of the banking problems, the lack of legal action on those responsible for running the banks into insolvency and the lack of responsibility taken on the part of the Banking and Government for their shady alliance which has put the the fallout onto the taxpayer, business people, property developers etc.

Maybe the organisers of the rally for Seán Quinn could set the ball rolling, they've got a ready-made constituency. I'm sure Mickey et al would only be too delighted to lend their (purely personal, of course) support for such a principled stand
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 02:19:11 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on July 31, 2012, 01:10:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 12:35:51 PM
Just in the nature of balance here's a nice article with quotes from a GAA person slamming SQ support.

http://www.herald.ie/news/gaa-celebs-slammed-for-backing-quinn-as-4000-turn-out-for-rally-3183936.html (http://www.herald.ie/news/gaa-celebs-slammed-for-backing-quinn-as-4000-turn-out-for-rally-3183936.html)

Now I'm a Quinn supporter so I don't agree with his views. But he's entitled to have them. And I don't take it as representative of the GAA that everyone is anti-Quinn just because of his comments.
Very true. However there is a difference between the GAA or a unit of it taking a stance on the matter which on either side no one is doing (other than Teemore (http://teemore.fermanagh.gaa.ie/club-news-1) as far as I know) with individual members free to make up their own minds, and the organisers of a rally ensuring that a significant make up of high-profile supporters are prominent figures within the GAA. Whatever the protestations and the motivations of those people in question, the ensuring scene is one of "If it walks like a duck, and quack likes a duck..." then it'll leave an impression in some peoples minds. It isn't possible to square together accusing those that the likes of Kernan, Boylan, Harte, O'Rourke etc. should not have been there because they were "GAA men" (which I am sure in any case would make up a large amount of the crowd there anyway), but also ignore the bleedin' obvious. I wasn't born yesterday. I am of the mindset that those I have mentioned spoke in their own personal capacity and made no attempt to represent anyone else other than themselves, but I just have a combination of being cynical and sick & tired of elements of the GAA being used by others for their own gain. The whole thing reeks of the Westminster election in 2001 in West Tyrone where both the SDLP and Sinn Fein made deliberate courting attempts at the GAA in the area to win votes. The Quinn case is a civil matter, and neither those who are supportive of Sean Quinn and those who aren't should be attempting to use the GAA to bolster their case either directly or indirectly - there are enough divisions within the association without trying to create more of them.

The people were prob approached because of their higher profile that the normal man in the street, and because all had have been supporters of the Quinns. I don't disagree on that. That's a standard practice when you're trying to get you're voice heard.
But each was making their stance of their own back, without GAA representation. Just because some people don't like that doesn't mean they should have refused to take part. Nor should people within the GAA have put pressure not to attend. The fact is that these people agree with the stance of the Quinns. The fact that they are members of the GAA shouldn't prevent them from demonstrating that support.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 02:21:10 PM
A judge at Dublin Commercial Court has expressed concern about a missing 32m euros in rental income from a Moscow property owned by Sean Quinn's family.

The former Anglo Irish Bank is looking to retrieve the money.

Judge Peter Kelly also reduced the monthly allowance for the Quinn children.

They had been allowed 2,000 euros each per week, but this was reduced to a monthly combined total of just over 30,000 euros.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 02:40:22 PM
In fairness they would be looking to bolster the impact of the rally so would be looking to public figures. The Quinn family's contacts within the GAA meant they were an obvious option. The local representatives are lacking a spine to keep them upright, prefering to whisper support without taking any public action.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 31, 2012, 02:41:41 PM
Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 02:46:04 PM
Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 02:21:10 PM
A judge at Dublin Commercial Court has expressed concern about a missing 32m euros in rental income from a Moscow property owned by Sean Quinn's family.

The former Anglo Irish Bank is looking to retrieve the money.

Judge Peter Kelly also reduced the monthly allowance for the Quinn children.

They had been allowed 2,000 euros each per week, but this was reduced to a monthly combined total of just over 30,000 euros.
I hope the poor put upon unfairly treated devils can manage to survive.
The cnuts should be allowed €188 per week each  , means tested of course.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 02:52:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 31, 2012, 02:41:41 PM
Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I think this is the sticking point, Does Quinn believe they weren't secured but the bank knew they were fecked and then changed the loans to secured against Quinn group assets?

Did the other members of the golden circle cough up?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 02:54:29 PM
Would it not make sense to back off the Quinns a bit. Let them try to rebuild their business and get people back in work. Lets face it. The £££ is gone and never to be returned. The quinns along with a lot of other people made foolish decisions in the boom and have lost a lot but they are people that are experienced in building business and creating jobs. Let them get back at it I say.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 03:08:58 PM
Anyone who loses money on the Galway plate tomorrow should get their money back, provided they are decent GAA people. And catholic of course.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 03:10:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 31, 2012, 02:41:41 PM
Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses


I'll try Armaghniac, but it's confusing.

- Quinn Invested money buying CFDs
- Share price dropped causing a call on the CFD position
- Quinn met with anglo and explained that he was unable to meet the CFD call.
- Decision was made between Anglo, SQ and maple ten to take loans from Anglo to support the call on CFDs
- Anglo share price continued to drop and was nationalised by the State
- Quinn Insurance go into Administration
- Anglo move to take over Quinn Group to recoup loans (Should be pointed out that loan repayments were still being met at this stage)
- Anglo realise they slipped up over a number of Foreign assets where Quinns were still able to control
- Quinns make attempt to run large cases against Anglo loans. Anglo oppose
- Quinn fight anglo over the assets declaring that huge part of the debt was "Illegal"
-  Quinn Family get legal standing by the Irish courts to run the case against anglo on the basis of share support.
- Anglo take out injunctions stopping Quinns moving certain assets within the property portfolio
- Quinns continue to move assets
- Anglo get contempt proceedings done against Quinns
- Anglo senior management get charged with Share support
- Anglo and Quinn still at loggerhead over assets

That's my attempt. And I'm trying to be as unbias as possible there. So if anyone else has steps that they feel I've missed or anything, it's not intentionally and let me know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 03:10:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 03:08:58 PM
Anyone who loses money on the Galway plate tomorrow should get their money back, provided they are decent GAA people. And catholic of course.

But not if they're from the Border area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 31, 2012, 03:16:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 31, 2012, 02:41:41 PM
Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I think the issue is around the bit highlighted. My understanding* s as follows:
Quinn owned 3-5% of Anglo and started to buy CFD's (commitments to buy shares) to increase his holding without having to signify his intent. Perfectly legal and providing the shares have gone up in value can be a way to finance your purchase (bit like a 100% mortgage).
By the time he had reached a point where he owned or was committed to 27-28% the CFD's were coming due and the share price was dropping meaning he would not be able to meet his obligation.
Anglo lent him the money to cover this debt and lent €450m to a few of their big clients (the Maple 10) to purchase Anglo shares to try to stabilise the share price.

This is where it gets murky.
There is dispute over what the loans to SQ were against as the shares would not cover it. SQ says the debts were against himself and the Quinn group adn has accepted being made bankrupt and losing his company. Anglo say the debts were against Quinn family assets also. I have heard allegations that the loan documents were doctored though not from a reliable source. This should eventually come out.

The Anglo loans to stabilise the share price are 100% illegal and there will be debate about how much SQ was aware of what was going on there.Seanie Fitz and David Dunne could probably answer this one.

Another element to muddy the waters still further were the "Directors loans" aka the cooking of the books being performed by Anglo in the preceding years. This would have seen a swing of approx 87m in the Anglo books. Would this have been enough to put SQ off investing in the first place?

This is my understanding based on what IO have read and heard and so I am open to correction/ further education.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on July 31, 2012, 03:17:33 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 03:10:14 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 03:08:58 PM
Anyone who loses money on the Galway plate tomorrow should get their money back, provided they are decent GAA people. And catholic of course.

But not if they're from the Border area.

And in particular if they're one of the Quinns, ever worked for the Quinns or feel the slightest bit of sympatht for the Quinns. Anyone who bought Blue circle instead of the white Quinn bag gets their do back as well.  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 31, 2012, 03:18:44 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 02:54:29 PM
Would it not make sense to back off the Quinns a bit. Let them try to rebuild their business and get people back in work. Lets face it. The £££ is gone and never to be returned. The quinns along with a lot of other people made foolish decisions in the boom and have lost a lot but they are people that are experienced in building business and creating jobs. Let them get back at it I say.

I think this is part of the problem, the £££ were continuing to be moved around after the Judge called a stop. It makes the Quinns look like they are pulling a fast one.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 31, 2012, 03:20:41 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 02:52:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 31, 2012, 02:41:41 PM
Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I think this is the sticking point, Does Quinn believe they weren't secured but the bank knew they were fecked and then changed the loans to secured against Quinn group assets?

Did the other members of the golden circle cough up?


7 out of 10 are in NAMA.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 03:23:40 PM
But were the maple ten not only liable for 25% of their Loans? I think I remember reading something about that.

I'll go have a look.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oakleafgael on July 31, 2012, 03:26:12 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2012, 03:16:11 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 31, 2012, 02:41:41 PM
Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I think the issue is around the bit highlighted. My understanding* s as follows:
Quinn owned 3-5% of Anglo and started to buy CFD's (commitments to buy shares) to increase his holding without having to signify his intent. Perfectly legal and providing the shares have gone up in value can be a way to finance your purchase (bit like a 100% mortgage).
By the time he had reached a point where he owned or was committed to 27-28% the CFD's were coming due and the share price was dropping meaning he would not be able to meet his obligation.
Anglo lent him the money to cover this debt and lent €450m to a few of their big clients (the Maple 10) to purchase Anglo shares to try to stabilise the share price.

This is where it gets murky.
There is dispute over what the loans to SQ were against as the shares would not cover it. SQ says the debts were against himself and the Quinn group adn has accepted being made bankrupt and losing his company. Anglo say the debts were against Quinn family assets also. I have heard allegations that the loan documents were doctored though not from a reliable source. This should eventually come out.

The Anglo loans to stabilise the share price are 100% illegal and there will be debate about how much SQ was aware of what was going on there.Seanie Fitz and David Dunne could probably answer this one.

Another element to muddy the waters still further were the "Directors loans" aka the cooking of the books being performed by Anglo in the preceding years. This would have seen a swing of approx 87m in the Anglo books. Would this have been enough to put SQ off investing in the first place?

This is my understanding based on what IO have read and heard and so I am open to correction/ further education.

I think at this stage its well known that there is evidence that the original loan documents where altered by Anglo after signing to change the purpose of the loan to working capital for the Quinn Group.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 03:32:06 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2012, 03:20:41 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 31, 2012, 02:52:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 31, 2012, 02:41:41 PM
Can someone post a link to a clear exposition of this case, if there is one, as I find it is hard to see what is going on and there are a lot of people like me.

- Quinn bought the CFDs
- Anglo shares went down - problem for SQ
- Anglo loaned various Quinns and others money to buy shares (to drive up price?) and sort CFD problem
- these loans were secured on Quinn businesses and properties?
- people did not repay loans so receiver sent to Quinn businesses

I think this is the sticking point, Does Quinn believe they weren't secured but the bank knew they were fecked and then changed the loans to secured against Quinn group assets?

Did the other members of the golden circle cough up?


7 out of 10 are in NAMA.
The other GC members were smarter than the Quinns IMO. They reacted faster to the tsunami.
But they should all be wrung dry of money.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 03:33:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 03:23:40 PM
But were the maple ten not only liable for 25% of their Loans? I think I remember reading something about that.

I'll go have a look.

I knew there was something about only paying back a smaller %.

The Maple 10

Nine of the Maple 10 are now clients of Nama, with the exception of Paddy McKillen. The Maple 10 only had to repay 25 per cent each of the €451m they borrowed in total. Members of the Maple 10 include some of Nama's biggest clients such as Joe O'Reilly, the owner of the Dundrum shopping centre, and Gerry Gannon, the developer. It was a considerable sore point for Quinn when he found out afterwards he was expected to repay 100 per cent of his borrowings, while the Maple 10 had a softer deal. Meanwhile, the Maple 10, who are accused of no wrongdoing, were furious at the bank for leaving them with a bill they believe should have been paid by Quinn.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 03:52:11 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 03:08:58 PM
Anyone who loses money on the Galway plate tomorrow should get their money back, provided they are decent GAA people. And catholic of course.

And after the matter the bookies should change the nature of the bet and pursue them for their car.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: winghalfun on July 31, 2012, 04:00:58 PM
Quote- Quinn Invested money buying CFDs
- Share price dropped causing a call on the CFD position
- Quinn met with anglo and explained that he was unable to meet the CFD call.
- Decision was made between Anglo, SQ and maple ten to take loans from Anglo to support the call on CFDs
- Anglo share price continued to drop and was nationalised by the State
- Quinn Insurance go into Administration
- Anglo move to take over Quinn Group to recoup loans (Should be pointed out that loan repayments were still being met at this stage)
- Anglo realise they slipped up over a number of Foreign assets where Quinns were still able to control
- Quinns make attempt to run large cases against Anglo loans. Anglo oppose
- Quinn fight anglo over the assets declaring that huge part of the debt was "Illegal"
-  Quinn Family get legal standing by the Irish courts to run the case against anglo on the basis of share support.
- Anglo take out injunctions stopping Quinns moving certain assets within the property portfolio
- Quinns continue to move assets
- Anglo get contempt proceedings done against Quinns
- Anglo senior management get charged with Share support
- Anglo and Quinn still at loggerhead over assets

That's my attempt. And I'm trying to be as unbias as possible there. So if anyone else has steps that they feel I've missed or anything, it's not intentionally and let me know.


Yes. I have a question.
Is there any point in that sequence of events that Sean Quinn or his advisors could have went - f**K , this is going tits up. Lets cut our losses and get out of here?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: winghalfun on July 31, 2012, 04:00:58 PM
Quote- Quinn Invested money buying CFDs
- Share price dropped causing a call on the CFD position
- Quinn met with anglo and explained that he was unable to meet the CFD call.
- Decision was made between Anglo, SQ and maple ten to take loans from Anglo to support the call on CFDs
- Anglo share price continued to drop and was nationalised by the State
- Quinn Insurance go into Administration
- Anglo move to take over Quinn Group to recoup loans (Should be pointed out that loan repayments were still being met at this stage)
- Anglo realise they slipped up over a number of Foreign assets where Quinns were still able to control
- Quinns make attempt to run large cases against Anglo loans. Anglo oppose
- Quinn fight anglo over the assets declaring that huge part of the debt was "Illegal"
-  Quinn Family get legal standing by the Irish courts to run the case against anglo on the basis of share support.
- Anglo take out injunctions stopping Quinns moving certain assets within the property portfolio
- Quinns continue to move assets
- Anglo get contempt proceedings done against Quinns
- Anglo senior management get charged with Share support
- Anglo and Quinn still at loggerhead over assets

That's my attempt. And I'm trying to be as unbias as possible there. So if anyone else has steps that they feel I've missed or anything, it's not intentionally and let me know.


Yes. I have a question.
Is there any point in that sequence of events that Sean Quinn or his advisors could have went - f**K , this is going tits up. Lets cut our losses and get out of here?

Yeah after the CFD's went South he should have walked away, went double or nothing on it and lost.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:09:42 PM
For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 04:35:52 PM
Quote from: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:13:33 PM
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.

Say it ain't so!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:42:02 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 04:35:52 PM
Quote from: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:13:33 PM
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.

Say it ain't so!

I never thought I'd see the day.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 04:42:48 PM
Quote from: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:09:42 PM
For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.
When a Bank tries to get back some of the money they're owed to save the taxpayer any one that tries to stop that be they Quinns,O'Rourkes or any one else are nothing but total cnuts and traitors to their Country.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on July 31, 2012, 04:43:59 PM
Quote from: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:09:42 PM
For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.

There's a finite amount of estimation in the universe, so it's important for the conversation of estimation to record that he's gone down in mine.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:09:42 PM
For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.
Kernan and O'Rourke both lost large amounts of money riding the Tiger.
Very disappointing to see Boylan in there saluting Quinn while disabled kids in Meath are having their funding cut because of Quinn.  It's not Mickey Harte's jurisdiction and HMG sponsors the wee 6 so he can afford to be very generous in his support. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 04:45:45 PM
QuoteSQ says the debts were against himself and the Quinn group adn has accepted being made bankrupt and losing his company. Anglo say the debts were against Quinn family assets also. I have heard allegations that the loan documents were doctored though not from a reliable source. This should eventually come out.

Interesting stuff.

Sounds like Anglo were a right bunch of chancers. How very 'Irish'.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 04:49:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:09:42 PM
For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.
Kernan and O'Rourke both lost large amounts of money riding the Tiger.
Very disappointing to see Boylan in there saluting Quinn while disabled kids in Meath are having their funding cut because of Quinn.  It's not Mickey Harte's jurisdiction and HMG sponsors the wee 6 so he can afford to be very generous in his support. 


The Quinns rights don't go out the window just because of the bank guarantee no matter how much some people would like that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:49:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:09:42 PM
For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.
Kernan and O'Rourke both lost large amounts of money riding the Tiger.
Very disappointing to see Boylan in there saluting Quinn while disabled kids in Meath are having their funding cut because of Quinn.   It's not Mickey Harte's jurisdiction and HMG sponsors the wee 6 so he can afford to be very generous in his support.

Because of Quinn? Would you care to back that statement up Seafoid?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Minder on July 31, 2012, 05:12:29 PM
"What are the facts in the Sean Quinn case?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19063419
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 05:24:06 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 04:49:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: boojangles on July 31, 2012, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 12:09:42 PM
For the record I DO NOT SUPPORT THE QUINNS in their attempts to avoid paying their debts and saddling me and the plain people of the 26 Counties with paying them.
If they were true Nationalists (rather than a greedy shower of arrogant moneyed pricks) they'd avoid lumping their debts on the taxpayers and that nephew wouldn't be hiding behind the Border to avoid his rightful place behind bars.
I certainly think an awful lot less of O'Rourke/Harte/Boylan/Kernan/Darcy in marching in support of that awful family plus Sean Kelly has gone down a lot in my opinion too for voicing support for them.

Who lumped private banking debt on the taxpayer Rossfan? It certainly wasn't Sean Quinn as you well know.
I always had great admiration for Harte, Kernan, Boylan etc but now even Colm O Rourke has gone up in my estimation. Fair play to them.
Kernan and O'Rourke both lost large amounts of money riding the Tiger.
Very disappointing to see Boylan in there saluting Quinn while disabled kids in Meath are having their funding cut because of Quinn.  It's not Mickey Harte's jurisdiction and HMG sponsors the wee 6 so he can afford to be very generous in his support. 


The Quinns rights don't go out the window just because of the bank guarantee no matter how much some people would like that.
Why should my Grandfather pay for the Quinns?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 05:27:14 PM
Why should the Quinns pay for your Grandfather?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 05:41:16 PM
The fcukin Quinns should pay their debts and not have the deprived and handicapped and sick people of the 26 Counties suffering because of the arrogance of a shower of cnuts - who apparently can't live on less than around €2k per week.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 31, 2012, 04:45:45 PM
QuoteSQ says the debts were against himself and the Quinn group adn has accepted being made bankrupt and losing his company. Anglo say the debts were against Quinn family assets also. I have heard allegations that the loan documents were doctored though not from a reliable source. This should eventually come out.

Interesting stuff.

Sounds like Anglo were a right bunch of chancers. How very 'Irish'.

No - it sounds like a case of he said, she said. A lot of Pro-Quinn posters are putting it out there that this doctoring of documentation is a matter of fact, when it's anything but.

The key issue however is that the Quinns are also taking steps to ensure that if this is not proven, IBRC/The Irish people can't have  the assets anyway. Basically one big f*** you to the Irish people, a case of if we can't have them, ye can't have them either.

This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf (http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 06:20:53 PM
It's one big f**k you to the Irish state. I've no arguments to that.
Considering the Irish state have taken no action to protect them and have decided to give anglo full reign to do as they like, I completely agree with their actions. The State had multiple options to run the case of liability before anything else. They decided not to do so but to allow anglo to work away on loans they knew could be deemed illegal.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 06:31:46 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 06:20:53 PM
It's one big f**k you to the Irish state. I've no arguments to that.
Considering the Irish state have taken no action to protect them and have decided to give anglo full reign to do as they like, I completely agree with their actions. The State had multiple options to run the case of liability before anything else. They decided not to do so but to allow anglo to work away on loans they knew could be deemed illegal.

This seems to be the central tenet of your case, so let's look at this then. When did the state decline to determine liability? What judgement is this?

I'm trying to be open minded here, but it's just occurred to me that this seems to be the crux of the argument, and yet I've never actually seen where this happened.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 06:34:32 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 06:20:53 PM
It's one big f**k you to the Irish state. I've no arguments to that.
Considering the Irish state have taken no action to protect them and have decided to give anglo full reign to do as they like, I completely agree with their actions. The State had multiple options to run the case of liability before anything else. They decided not to do so but to allow anglo to work away on loans they knew could be deemed illegal.

And a big f**k you to me and all other Irish taxpayers.
Jarlath burns was just on today fm with fintan o'toole on other side. Apparently jarlathtold the crowd the other day that "the GAA community wanted justice for the quinns". So much for speaking in a personal capacity.
He said he didn't want to get involved in "an economic debate" because he knew he'd lose hands down.
Instead us argument was SQ is a humble man who created employment in border area. I don't think anyone is disputing that but it hardly gives you carte blanche to do as you like.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 06:43:39 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 06:31:46 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 06:20:53 PM
It's one big f**k you to the Irish state. I've no arguments to that.
Considering the Irish state have taken no action to protect them and have decided to give anglo full reign to do as they like, I completely agree with their actions. The State had multiple options to run the case of liability before anything else. They decided not to do so but to allow anglo to work away on loans they knew could be deemed illegal.

This seems to be the central tenet of your case, so let's look at this then. When did the state decline to determine liability? What judgement is this?

I'm trying to be open minded here, but it's just occurred to me that this seems to be the crux of the argument, and yet I've never actually seen where this happened.


That's the point, it should have been done before the state agreed to the action by Anglo to seize the Group. It was known by then about the share support so would it not have been a better time to look at things then before allowing Anglo to actually enforce the loans. If for nothing else the cost to the state now if the Quinns win is going to be catastrophic.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: anglocelt39 on July 31, 2012, 06:46:03 PM
Interestingly a number of the Dublin Banking/Accounting/Legal set that I have dealings with believe that poor oul Seanie Fitz is on the receiving end of terrible injustice and harrassment. So it's not just the plain people of the border regions who are willing to suspend objective judgement when it comes to the affairs and travails of those that pay the bills/grease their palms etc.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 06:46:35 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 06:34:32 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 06:20:53 PM
It's one big f**k you to the Irish state. I've no arguments to that.
Considering the Irish state have taken no action to protect them and have decided to give anglo full reign to do as they like, I completely agree with their actions. The State had multiple options to run the case of liability before anything else. They decided not to do so but to allow anglo to work away on loans they knew could be deemed illegal.

And a big f**k you to me and all other Irish taxpayers.
Jarlath burns was just on today fm with fintan o'toole on other side. Apparently jarlathtold the crowd the other day that "the GAA community wanted justice for the quinns". So much for speaking in a personal capacity.
He said he didn't want to get involved in "an economic debate" because he knew he'd lose hands down.
Instead us argument was SQ is a humble man who created employment in border area. I don't think anyone is disputing that but it hardly gives you carte blanche to do as you like.

Just because Jarlath didn't know the economic debate doesn't mean there isn't one. It's been done on here enough!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on July 31, 2012, 06:57:17 PM
Quote from: anglocelt39 on July 31, 2012, 06:46:03 PM
Interestingly a number of the Dublin Banking/Accounting/Legal set that I have dealings with believe that poor oul Seanie Fitz is on the receiving end of terrible injustice and harrassment. So it's not just the plain people of the border regions who are willing to suspend objective judgement when it comes to the affairs and travails of those that pay the bills/grease their palms etc.
It's Ireland all over. It's no different to Healy Rae or Lowry... local supporters see one angle, virtually everyone else sees another.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on July 31, 2012, 06:59:00 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 31, 2012, 06:34:32 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 06:20:53 PM
It's one big f**k you to the Irish state. I've no arguments to that.
Considering the Irish state have taken no action to protect them and have decided to give anglo full reign to do as they like, I completely agree with their actions. The State had multiple options to run the case of liability before anything else. They decided not to do so but to allow anglo to work away on loans they knew could be deemed illegal.

And a big f**k you to me and all other Irish taxpayers.
Jarlath burns was just on today fm with fintan o'toole on other side. Apparently jarlathtold the crowd the other day that "the GAA community wanted justice for the quinns". So much for speaking in a personal capacity.
He said he didn't want to get involved in "an economic debate" because he knew he'd lose hands down.
Instead us argument was SQ is a humble man who created employment in border area. I don't think anyone is disputing that but it hardly gives you carte blanche to do as you like.
Not exactly the smartest way to argue this one! And indeed, what mandate has he to speak for the GAA community?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on July 31, 2012, 07:12:27 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf (http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf)
Agreed. Doesn't help his credibility.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 07:24:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 06:43:39 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 06:31:46 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on July 31, 2012, 06:20:53 PM
It's one big f**k you to the Irish state. I've no arguments to that.
Considering the Irish state have taken no action to protect them and have decided to give anglo full reign to do as they like, I completely agree with their actions. The State had multiple options to run the case of liability before anything else. They decided not to do so but to allow anglo to work away on loans they knew could be deemed illegal.

This seems to be the central tenet of your case, so let's look at this then. When did the state decline to determine liability? What judgement is this?

I'm trying to be open minded here, but it's just occurred to me that this seems to be the crux of the argument, and yet I've never actually seen where this happened.


That's the point, it should have been done before the state agreed to the action by Anglo to seize the Group. It was known by then about the share support so would it not have been a better time to look at things then before allowing Anglo to actually enforce the loans. If for nothing else the cost to the state now if the Quinns win is going to be catastrophic.

That's what you're hanging this on? No legal verdict, no precedent, no break in usual legal custom, just "It was known" and "would it not have been a better time..."

The cost to the State if the Quinns' guarantee is deemed to be illegal is catastrophic, certainly, but I don't see why it would cost any more if it comes in six months time as opposed to six months ago? The cost is the same surely? The only difference now is that if the state wins, the Quinns have made sure that justice won't be done, the state will get a lot less than they should. Basically they want a one way bet (yet again!!) where they get the asset base, win or lose.

I honestly presumed that you had some piece of information here that I was missing - some reason why this case should have been heard before now, but wasn't. Not just "wouldn't it have been better if it was".

Of course it would be ideal if all legal disputes were heard and adjudicated immediately - but that's not practical. They are dealt with as they come up, and the fact is that the first issue was the Quinns were ordered not to dispose of anything, and they did. That is contempt by any definition, and now that Seán Quinn Sr has come out and said that he agreed with the asset transfer, he believes in it and he's given no reason to believe that he's trying to reverse it, I see no reason why he should be walking the streets as a free man either. He's in contempt and the only reason he's at liberty, according to the judge, is to allow him to reverse the asset transfer. He's not doing that, so why leave him out?

Yet again I open my mind, give the Pro-Quinn point of view a chance, and get nothing but speculation back in return.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 07:26:53 PM
Sean Quinn Snr has no creditabilty in my opinion.

Neither do the two boyos that are/should be in jail.

Jarlath Burns has no right to refer to "the GAA community" if he said as much. Who died and made him President?

I see now Quinn Ins needs 1.6bn. More taxes on me and my family. Wait, is this the Quinn Ins that was to pay back all this money before the nasty Mr Elderfield stepped in......right. Oh wait, did the new Administrators run it into the ground in such a short space of time.

They must have.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 07:47:42 PM
While is was a rather sweeping statement in fairness if you have people of the ilk of Joe Kernan, Mickey Harte, Sean Boylan, Colm O'Rourke who are prepared to travel to a rally in Cavan to publicly support him, and then have Sean Kelly, a former GAA President publicly praising that support, it would suggest that there is a fair level of support for him among the GAA community
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Saffrongael on July 31, 2012, 07:54:55 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 07:47:42 PM
While is was a rather sweeping statement in fairness if you have people of the ilk of Joe Kernan, Mickey Harte, Sean Boylan, Colm O'Rourke who are prepared to travel to a rally in Cavan to publicly support him, and then have Sean Kelly, a former GAA President publicly praising that support, it would suggest that there is a fair level of support for him among the GAA community

They speak only for themselves, fellas like Kernan and Burns are at every dog fight so I wouldn't read too much into their appearance. Who knows, maybe Quinn was calling in favours.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 31, 2012, 07:58:40 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on July 31, 2012, 07:54:55 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 07:47:42 PM
While is was a rather sweeping statement in fairness if you have people of the ilk of Joe Kernan, Mickey Harte, Sean Boylan, Colm O'Rourke who are prepared to travel to a rally in Cavan to publicly support him, and then have Sean Kelly, a former GAA President publicly praising that support, it would suggest that there is a fair level of support for him among the GAA community

They speak only for themselves, fellas like Kernan and Burns are at every dog fight so I wouldn't read too much into their appearance. Who knows, maybe Quinn was calling in favours.
What is the mileage rate in Quinn's?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 07:59:07 PM
An even more sweeping statement. What other dog fights have they been at? What favours might Quinn be calling in??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 31, 2012, 08:02:06 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 07:59:07 PM
An even more sweeping statement. What other dog fights have they been at? What favours might Quinn be calling in??
Jarlath's attack dog is off the leash.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 08:07:46 PM
Not at all. I just like to see people back up what they say with evidence that's all. I seem to remember you making a rather sweeping statement on an earlier thread suggesting that he sent his kids to a grammar school when in fact all his kids go to a secondary school. But never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

I'm nobody's attack dog. I'm a member of the Silverbridge Club and therefore happy to defend our Chairman, or anyone else for that matter, when there is something to defend.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 08:12:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 31, 2012, 05:41:16 PM
The fcukin Quinns should pay their debts and not have the deprived and handicapped and sick people of the 26 Counties suffering because of the arrogance of a shower of cnuts - who apparently can't live on less than around €2k per week.

lol! You bollocks

Shamrock, yep, thats the one. I wouldnt think it would have helped their business stopping them renewing policies, would you?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 08:16:15 PM
What are the facts in the Sean Quinn case?

By Jim Fitzpatrick
BBC NI economics and business editor

There has been much comment about former billionaire businessman Sean Quinn, who has been embroiled in a legal battle over the debts he owes the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly the Anglo Irish Bank.

At the height of his success, Mr Quinn was the 12th richest man in the UK and the richest in Ireland, employing thousands, mostly in the previously job-starved cross-border area of Fermanagh and Cavan.

In April 2011, control of his business empire passed into the hands of the IBRC.

Later that year Sean Quinn declared himself bankrupt in a Belfast court, making him the biggest bankrupt in UK history.

On 20 July, a Dublin judge found that Mr Quinn, his son, Sean Quinn jnr and a nephew, Peter Darragh Quinn, hid millions in assets from the bank.

Mr Quinn jnr and Peter Darragh Quinn were given three-month jail terms.

Here are some key facts:

Sean Quinn didn't invest in Anglo Irish Bank, he bet on it
If all he'd done was buy shares, his losses would have been limited.

But Sean Quinn chose a dangerous financial instrument called Contracts for Difference (CFDs) to build up a 25% stake in Anglo Irish Bank.

It was a leveraged bet on the share price - if it his bet had come good, he would have made billions, but because it went bad he lost more than five times his initial huge stake.

He literally bet the bank and both bank and Quinn went down. His losses totalled more than 3.2bn euros at the end, with Anglo on the hook for 2.8bn euros.

Anglo didn't encourage Sean Quinn money to build this stake
Anglo Irish Bank was horrified when it discovered the scale of Sean Quinn's stake because they knew they could both go down if the full story was public.

It was a fatal embrace. The reason some directors of Anglo now face criminal charges is because of money lent to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet.

Even Sean Quinn has never publicly suggested that Anglo wanted him to build a 25% stake through CFDs in the bank.

Sean Quinn broke the law before the bank moved in
Sean Quinn was removed from his insurance business by the regulator because he had broken the law.

He had used funds from his insurance business to prop up other parts of the group. It was a serious offence.

The regulator eventually put the entire business into administration because he found the Quinn management were still breaking the rules and there was a massive black hole in the finances. This happened a year before Anglo moved to take control of the rest of the empire.

Sean Quinn now accepts that the actions of the regulator were "right and proper".

Meanwhile all insurance policies in the Republic are now subject to a 2% levy indefinitely to fill the financial hole found in Quinn Insurance.

The family had no viable plan to pay back the money
Once the insurance business was taken from family control, their offer to repay the 2.8 billion euros owed went up in smoke.

The fact that their plan relied upon cash from the insurance arm was not reassuring to a regulator who'd found that they had repeatedly broken the rules not to use money from the regulated business to support the rest of the group.

On 7 March 2011 (one month before Anglo took over the rest of the group) the family's lawyers stated clearly in a letter to Anglo that their offer to repay "was made solely in the context of our clients retaining economic control of Quinn Insurance".

The regulator had already ruled that out, it was not a matter within Anglo's control.

The family did promise to honour loans of 455m euros
In that same letter to Anglo (obtained from Swedish court archives during my investigation for BBC Spotlight) the family's lawyers state: "Your client is aware that 455m euros of loans related to our clients' investments in their international property portfolio (IPP).

"These loans are performing and our clients have met the interest schedules on them, as clearly demonstrated by a review of the attached schedule."

The attached information is headed "Schedule of Valid Property Loans from Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Limited".

Sean Quinn didn't just "frustrate" the bank
The reason Sean Quinn, his son and nephew, are guilty of contempt is because they took actions to interfere with the business and shift assets after Anglo had taken control last April and in breach of specific court injunctions obtained in June.

These actions include Sean Quinn falsifying documents in July (three months after he was ousted) to take control of a Moscow office block worth 180m euros and put it into an offshore company in Belize.

He falsified the documents to make it look like it was done while he was still in charge, but in fact he was a bogus director using fake documents to move very real and valuable assets beyond the reach of the taxpayer-owned bank.

Far from going to court and owning up to this course of action, as Sean Quinn has recently suggested he did, he denied all this in court.

He merely admitted taking steps to frustrate the bank while he was still in charge of the company. The judge didn't believe him.

Sean Quinn isn't defying Anglo alone
He's defying the Irish courts.

It is the courts - not Anglo - that have found him in contempt.

Judge Kelly described the scheme he authorised as one of "mesmeric complexity" that "reeked of dishonesty and sharp practice". It is the courts that have ruled that the debt must be honoured.

The legitimacy of the disputed loans will be determined
There is a case that will be heard over the legitimacy of the disputed 2.3bn euros loans.

But in the meantime the Quinns are legally bound to honour the court rulings.

If, ultimately, the 2.3bn euros is ruled illegal and unenforceable then they will be due compensation.

Supporters say this must be determined first, and it is right to hide assets in the meantime.

They say the actions taken to date are an attempt to bankrupt the Quinn family so they can't fight that other case.

But it is contradictory to ignore current court orders on the basis that you believe a future court decision will go your way. That suggests you only obey the law when it obeys you. It also ignores the undisputed 455m euros of debt the family have always agreed is owed.

Judge Elizabeth Dunne summarised this key argument in her contempt judgement: "Instead of trying to repay the admitted debt due, the Quinn family and in particular the respondents have taken every step possible to make it as difficult as can be to recover any amount due.

"They have engaged in a complex, complicated and, no doubt, costly, series of steps designed to put the assets of the IPG (International Property Group) beyond the reach of Anglo, in a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner.

"They have consciously misled courts here and elsewhere. They have sought to deprive Anglo of the assets which would go some way to discharging an admitted indebtedness.

"The behaviour of the respondents outlined in evidence before me is as far as removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 08:22:05 PM
Jims been running round trying to doorstep him for a while, I'd say he thinks this could be his big break.

Btw, what was going on with the audit of anglo etc, presumably someones been punished for the bill of health it was getting?

I seem to remember too it being found out that anglo and another irish financial institution regularly transferred massive sums of money between each other to cook the books - has this ever been mentioned in court, or are charges lined up?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 31, 2012, 08:27:24 PM
Dougal, ask the Chairman what sees in that article that is worth defending.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 08:32:16 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf (http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf)

Thanks for posting that. Ample evidence that Seán Quinn is a bare-faced liar whose assurances are utterly worthless
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 08:43:08 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 08:32:16 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf (http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf)

Thanks for posting that. Ample evidence that Seán Quinn is a bare-faced liar whose assurances are utterly worthless

And theres no spin on the article??? One example of the lies they try to portray quinn as having told: '

QUinn says anglo or the irbc removed his family from their roles....(long winded filling) in fact, it was the share receiver appointed by irbc who removed the family'  Hmmm......
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on July 31, 2012, 08:51:09 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 08:43:08 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 08:32:16 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf (http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf)

Thanks for posting that. Ample evidence that Seán Quinn is a bare-faced liar whose assurances are utterly worthless

And theres no spin on the article??? One example of the lies they try to portray quinn as having told: '

QUinn says anglo or the irbc removed his family from their roles....(long winded filling) in fact, it was the share receiver appointed by irbc who removed the family'  Hmmm......
What about the rest?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 08:53:32 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 08:43:08 PM
And theres no spin on the article??? One example of the lies they try to portray quinn as having told: '

QUinn says anglo or the irbc removed his family from their roles....(long winded filling) in fact, it was the share receiver appointed by irbc who removed the family'  Hmmm......

What's factually incorrect about that? Why should we believe anything Seán Quinn says after reading the article?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 08:57:55 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 07:26:53 PM
Sean Quinn Snr has no creditabilty in my opinion.

Neither do the two boyos that are/should be in jail.

Jarlath Burns has no right to refer to "the GAA community" if he said as much. Who died and made him President?

I see now Quinn Ins needs 1.6bn. More taxes on me and my family. Wait, is this the Quinn Ins that was to pay back all this money before the nasty Mr Elderfield stepped in......right. Oh wait, did the new Administrators run it into the ground in such a short space of time.

They must have.
They couldn't run an insurance company and they didn't understand finance. And the citizens have to pay for it all.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on July 31, 2012, 09:38:05 PM

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 08:16:15 PM
What are the facts in the Sean Quinn case?

By Jim Fitzpatrick
BBC NI economics and business editor


Here are some key facts:

Sean Quinn didn't invest in Anglo Irish Bank, he bet on it
If all he'd done was buy shares, his losses would have been limited.

But Sean Quinn chose a dangerous financial instrument called Contracts for Difference (CFDs) to build up a 25% stake in Anglo Irish Bank.

It was a leveraged bet on the share price - if it his bet had come good, he would have made billions, but because it went bad he lost more than five times his initial huge stake.

He literally bet the bank and both bank and Quinn went down. His losses totalled more than 3.2bn euros at the end, with Anglo on the hook for 2.8bn euros.

Anglo didn't encourage Sean Quinn money to build this stake
Anglo Irish Bank was horrified when it discovered the scale of Sean Quinn's stake because they knew they could both go down if the full story was public.

It was a fatal embrace. The reason some directors of Anglo now face criminal charges is because of money lent to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet.

Even Sean Quinn has never publicly suggested that Anglo wanted him to build a 25% stake through CFDs in the bank.

Sean Quinn broke the law before the bank moved in
Sean Quinn was removed from his insurance business by the regulator because he had broken the law.

He had used funds from his insurance business to prop up other parts of the group. It was a serious offence.

The regulator eventually put the entire business into administration because he found the Quinn management were still breaking the rules and there was a massive black hole in the finances. This happened a year before Anglo moved to take control of the rest of the empire.

Sean Quinn now accepts that the actions of the regulator were "right and proper".

Meanwhile all insurance policies in the Republic are now subject to a 2% levy indefinitely to fill the financial hole found in Quinn Insurance.

The family had no viable plan to pay back the money
Once the insurance business was taken from family control, their offer to repay the 2.8 billion euros owed went up in smoke.

The fact that their plan relied upon cash from the insurance arm was not reassuring to a regulator who'd found that they had repeatedly broken the rules not to use money from the regulated business to support the rest of the group.


That's a good article by Fitzpatrick.

How much money was lent by Anglo  "to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet"?
€2.8bn?

Why was Quinn's 25% share deemed horrifying by Anglo?  was that due to the dodgy reckless nature of the share purchase?
How come Anglo were in the dark about Quinn's share purchase?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 09:47:15 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 31, 2012, 08:51:09 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 08:43:08 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 08:32:16 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf (http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf)

Thanks for posting that. Ample evidence that Seán Quinn is a bare-faced liar whose assurances are utterly worthless

And theres no spin on the article??? One example of the lies they try to portray quinn as having told: '

QUinn says anglo or the irbc removed his family from their roles....(long winded filling) in fact, it was the share receiver appointed by irbc who removed the family'  Hmmm......
What about the rest?

Quinn talks about his company in the past tense, saying it WAS making...4,5,6, hundred million a year.

The article talks about the losses in Quinn insurance in the present, irrelevant in disproving quinns statement. It then admits the numbers were healthy, and laughably trys to pour scorn on his remarks by saying in 2007 the companies made cash earnings of 492 million. I think its probably acceptable for someone to round that up to 500, so even without taking into account other ways in which a company could be deemed to be making money (property prices, share increases etc), its not exactly the ridiculous statement the article trys to paint.

The piece about him accepting the regulator, and using quotes from 2010 to show how his opinion has changed is also spun in the worst possible way. Rather than seeing him as having reflected and accepted certain decisions which clearly were emotive in the immmediate aftermath as being a positive thing, they use it to portray him as a liar.

With regard to him not being responsible for the overall losses in the banking system - he wasnt. There were losses in the banking system all over the world. Quinn was not responsible. The reason quinn got in trouble with anglo is because of these losses, the share price was falling like a stone which fucked him up. He was not responsible for this share price drop.

With regard to the group owing the 2.8bn, that much is true (awaiting the leagality beign confirmed of course). With regard to what personal gaurantees were backing this up, that remains to be seen.

With regard to what was said to Dunne, it appears the issue the paper have is with the timing of when they told the court what quinn says he did, presumably they believe it contradicts the word 'straight' in his comments. Pedantic spin.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 09:50:26 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 08:53:32 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 08:43:08 PM
And theres no spin on the article??? One example of the lies they try to portray quinn as having told: '

QUinn says anglo or the irbc removed his family from their roles....(long winded filling) in fact, it was the share receiver appointed by irbc who removed the family'  Hmmm......

What's factually incorrect about that? Why should we believe anything Seán Quinn says after reading the article?

Theres a lot of spin on it. Whats factually incorrect about for e.g. quinn saying the family never borrowed money?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 09:50:46 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 31, 2012, 08:27:24 PM
Dougal, ask the Chairman what sees in that article that is worth defending.

No because I don't support his support for the Quinns. Read what I said. I said I'd defend him when there's something to defend which was why I corrected your suggestion about his children's school and asked for evidence of other dog fights he and Big Joe were in and also the suggestion that Quinn might have been calling in favours. I never cease to be amazed at how people are prepared to come out with statements and innuendo without a single thread of evidence. So what exactly did you mean and what were you suggesting when you asked 'What is the mileage rate in Quinn's?'
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 31, 2012, 09:51:45 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 09:47:15 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 31, 2012, 08:51:09 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 08:43:08 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 08:32:16 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf (http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf)

Thanks for posting that. Ample evidence that Seán Quinn is a bare-faced liar whose assurances are utterly worthless

And theres no spin on the article??? One example of the lies they try to portray quinn as having told: '

QUinn says anglo or the irbc removed his family from their roles....(long winded filling) in fact, it was the share receiver appointed by irbc who removed the family'  Hmmm......
What about the rest?

Quinn talks about his company in the past tense, saying it WAS making...4,5,6, hundred million a year.

The article talks about the losses in Quinn insurance in the present, irrelevant in disproving quinns statement. It then admits the numbers were healthy, and laughably trys to pour scorn on his remarks by saying in 2007 the companies made cash earnings of 492 million. I think its probably acceptable for someone to round that up to 500, so even without taking into account other ways in which a company could be deemed to be making money (property prices, share increases etc), its not exactly the ridiculous statement the article trys to paint.

The piece about him accepting the regulator, and using quotes from 2010 to show how his opinion has changed is also spun in the worst possible way. Rather than seeing him as having reflected and accepted certain decisions which clearly were emotive in the immmediate aftermath as being a positive thing, they use it to portray him as a liar.

With regard to him not being responsible for the overall losses in the banking system - he wasnt. There were losses in the banking system all over the world. Quinn was not responsible. The reason quinn got in trouble with anglo is because of these losses, the share price was falling like a stone which fucked him up. He was not responsible for this share price drop.

With regard to the group owing the 2.8bn, that much is true (awaiting the leagality beign confirmed of course). With regard to what personal gaurantees were backing this up, that remains to be seen.

With regard to what was said to Dunne, it appears the issue the paper have is with the timing of when they told the court what quinn says he did, presumably they believe it contradicts the word 'straight' in his comments. Pedantic spin.
Big of you to admit that   ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 31, 2012, 09:54:13 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 09:50:46 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 31, 2012, 08:27:24 PM
Dougal, ask the Chairman what sees in that article that is worth defending.

No because I don't support his support for the Quinns. Read what I said. I said I'd defend him when there's something to defend which was why I corrected your suggestion about his children's school and asked for evidence of other dog fights he and Big Joe were in and also the suggestion that Quinn might have been calling in favours. I never cease to be amazed at how people are prepared to come out with statements and innuendo without a single thread of evidence. So what exactly did you mean and what were you suggesting when you asked 'What is the mileage rate in Quinn's?'
I never said he was at any dogfight. Getting your posters mixed up sir.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 09:55:20 PM
I'll accept that Tony, but you have to see its working both ways. I genuinely thought, given the bits of praise there were for the article that it might be a compelling piece, but was genuinely surprised to see such amateurish shite (altho less amaterish than my riposte, but at least I have the excuse of actually being an amateur  ;))
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 31, 2012, 09:56:37 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 09:55:20 PM
I'll accept that Tony, but you have to see its working both ways. I genuinely thought, given the bits of praise there were for the article that it might be a compelling piece, but was genuinely surprised to see such amateurish shite (altho less amaterish than my riposte, but at least I have the excuse of actually being an amateur  ;))
;D

Right I'm away for some Olympics action. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on July 31, 2012, 09:58:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 31, 2012, 09:38:05 PM

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 08:16:15 PM
What are the facts in the Sean Quinn case?

By Jim Fitzpatrick
BBC NI economics and business editor


Here are some key facts:

Sean Quinn didn't invest in Anglo Irish Bank, he bet on it
If all he'd done was buy shares, his losses would have been limited.

But Sean Quinn chose a dangerous financial instrument called Contracts for Difference (CFDs) to build up a 25% stake in Anglo Irish Bank.

It was a leveraged bet on the share price - if it his bet had come good, he would have made billions, but because it went bad he lost more than five times his initial huge stake.

He literally bet the bank and both bank and Quinn went down. His losses totalled more than 3.2bn euros at the end, with Anglo on the hook for 2.8bn euros.

Anglo didn't encourage Sean Quinn money to build this stake
Anglo Irish Bank was horrified when it discovered the scale of Sean Quinn's stake because they knew they could both go down if the full story was public.

It was a fatal embrace. The reason some directors of Anglo now face criminal charges is because of money lent to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet.

Even Sean Quinn has never publicly suggested that Anglo wanted him to build a 25% stake through CFDs in the bank.

Sean Quinn broke the law before the bank moved in
Sean Quinn was removed from his insurance business by the regulator because he had broken the law.

He had used funds from his insurance business to prop up other parts of the group. It was a serious offence.

The regulator eventually put the entire business into administration because he found the Quinn management were still breaking the rules and there was a massive black hole in the finances. This happened a year before Anglo moved to take control of the rest of the empire.

Sean Quinn now accepts that the actions of the regulator were "right and proper".

Meanwhile all insurance policies in the Republic are now subject to a 2% levy indefinitely to fill the financial hole found in Quinn Insurance.

The family had no viable plan to pay back the money
Once the insurance business was taken from family control, their offer to repay the 2.8 billion euros owed went up in smoke.

The fact that their plan relied upon cash from the insurance arm was not reassuring to a regulator who'd found that they had repeatedly broken the rules not to use money from the regulated business to support the rest of the group.


That's a good article by Fitzpatrick.

How much money was lent by Anglo  "to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet"?
€2.8bn?   

Why was Quinn's 25% share deemed horrifying by Anglo?  was that due to the dodgy reckless nature of the share purchase?
How come Anglo were in the dark about Quinn's share purchase?
€450m.
Anglo weren't aware as he was using CFD s, essentially promises tom buy the shares.
They were probably horrified as the books would have to be opened up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on July 31, 2012, 09:59:09 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 31, 2012, 08:57:55 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 31, 2012, 07:26:53 PM
Sean Quinn Snr has no creditabilty in my opinion.

Neither do the two boyos that are/should be in jail.

Jarlath Burns has no right to refer to "the GAA community" if he said as much. Who died and made him President?

I see now Quinn Ins needs 1.6bn. More taxes on me and my family. Wait, is this the Quinn Ins that was to pay back all this money before the nasty Mr Elderfield stepped in......right. Oh wait, did the new Administrators run it into the ground in such a short space of time.

They must have.
They couldn't run an insurance company and they didn't understand finance. And the citizens have to pay for it all.

He ran it well enough for something like 12 insurance companies to come looking to buy it as soon as the administrators showed up. Now they've made a balls of it and the taxpayer has to pay for it. But f**k that lets take Quinn's profitable enterprises and shove the blame on him when corrupt and inept administrators are given the reins. It's a pity that's such working class crusaders such as yourself can't see the wood for the trees. No wonder the Irish get fucked over so much.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 10:03:32 PM
Read what I said. I said - 'Which was why I corrected your suggestion about his children's school and asked for evidence of other dog fights he and Big Joe were in and also the suggestion that Quinn might have been calling in favours. I specifically linked you to the comments about his children's school not the dogfight or the calling in favours issue. I also specifically linked you to the mileage issue - So what exactly did you mean and what were you suggesting when you asked 'What is the mileage rate in Quinn's?'
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on July 31, 2012, 10:07:21 PM
QuoteBut f**k that lets take Quinn's profitable enterprises and shove the blame on him when corrupt and inept administrators are given the reins.

Quinn was as inept in the end as any administrator and his concealment of assets is corrupt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 10:15:47 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 09:47:15 PM
Quinn talks about his company in the past tense, saying it WAS making...4,5,6, hundred million a year.

The article talks about the losses in Quinn insurance in the present, irrelevant in disproving quinns statement. It then admits the numbers were healthy, and laughably trys to pour scorn on his remarks by saying in 2007 the companies made cash earnings of 492 million. I think its probably acceptable for someone to round that up to 500, so even without taking into account other ways in which a company could be deemed to be making money (property prices, share increases etc), its not exactly the ridiculous statement the article trys to paint.

And you accuse the article of using spin! The losses the company is suffering now are an inevitable consequence of Quinn slashing prices to maximise market share. Forget about Anglo. Even if he hadn't put a penny into Anglo, we'd all still be paying for his folly through the insurance levy. Quinn Insurance an "extremely valuable company"? Lie.

Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 09:47:15 PMThe piece about him accepting the regulator, and using quotes from 2010 to show how his opinion has changed is also spun in the worst possible way. Rather than seeing him as having reflected and accepted certain decisions which clearly were emotive in the immmediate aftermath as being a positive thing, they use it to portray him as a liar.

The quotes refer to events in 2010 but they are from the Irish Daily Mail on July 22nd 2012. Seán Quinn being okay with the regulator sacking him and his family? Lie.

Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 09:47:15 PMWith regard to him not being responsible for the overall losses in the banking system - he wasnt. There were losses in the banking system all over the world. Quinn was not responsible. The reason quinn got in trouble with anglo is because of these losses, the share price was falling like a stone which fucked him up. He was not responsible for this share price drop.

Seán Quinn has to take his share of the responsibility, he made a colossal punt on the shares of an Irish bank and was in cahoots with the bandits who tried to cover it up. No responsibility at all? Lie.

Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 09:47:15 PMWith regard to the group owing the 2.8bn, that much is true (awaiting the leagality beign confirmed of course). With regard to what personal gaurantees were backing this up, that remains to be seen.

Did you not read Peter Kelly's judgement on the guarantees given by Seán Quinn? It has already been determined that he gave personal guarantees and Anglo/IBRC were entitled to pursue them. To say otherwise? Lie.

Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 09:47:15 PMWith regard to what was said to Dunne, it appears the issue the paper have is with the timing of when they told the court what quinn says he did, presumably they believe it contradicts the word 'straight' in his comments. Pedantic spin.

Nothing of the sort. He denied it right up until the point when the judgement was handed down against him. Nothing wrong with that in itself, a man is entitled to advance a defence. But to then claim he always told it "exactly as it was"? Lie.

And he will continue to lie because he's a liar.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Aaron Boone on July 31, 2012, 10:22:35 PM
Are all those factories in Teemore/Ballyconnell still working and going good? If so, folks are still getting their wages.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 31, 2012, 10:26:06 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 10:03:32 PM
Read what I said. I said - 'Which was why I corrected your suggestion about his children's school and asked for evidence of other dog fights he and Big Joe were in and also the suggestion that Quinn might have been calling in favours. I specifically linked you to the comments about his children's school not the dogfight or the calling in favours issue. I also specifically linked you to the mileage issue - So what exactly did you mean and what were you suggesting when you asked 'What is the mileage rate in Quinn's?'
Somebody has their knickers in a twist tonight. The mileage thing was a lame joke about GAA men liking their mileage paid! What else would it be?!  ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 10:32:06 PM
Deisach, So was the group making 4,5,6 hundred million a year? Yes or no? You've isolated Q ins, its the quinns claims about the group the article are trying to scorn. There are no inevitable losses - the group was very healthy.

If quinn had never put a penny into anglo, quinn insurance would have been sorted out.

It refers to remarks he made in 2010, he has now revised his opinion in july 2012. Have you never thought differently about something after you;ve had time to reflect and change your opinion? If you did would you consider it fair to be called a liar becuase your opinion has changed?

Why was the bank in trouble? Because the share price fell massively. Was SQ responsible for the losses? No. Anglo was the most exposed bank in the market - it was ran by cowboys. It was never going to escape the recession, it lent money that never should have been lent, and I'm not talking about SQ, other loans that every other bank thought far too risky. Other banks who were less exposed collapsed, anglo was fucked, and that wasnt quinns fault. quinns massive gamble and massive stake speeded the demise, but he wasnt responsible for the overall losses in the banking system, as he says, and as the article trys to scorn. Who was the Quinn in northern rock, the icelandic banks, rbs, etc etc etc, if his involvement was the only reason for the collapse of anglo??

And of course theres some bias in my post. My entire point is that theres a lot of bias in that article. It is pedantic and spun, and some of my post is. Like all with this case, the truth is somewhere in between, I believe its closer to my view, but I dont have a soapbox the size of the southern medias to get that across, unfortunately noone seems to be looking objectively at those articles.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 10:34:24 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 10:32:06 PM
And of course theres some bias in my post. My entire point is that theres a lot of bias in that article. It is pedantic and spun, and some of my post is. Like all with this case, the truth is somewhere in between, I believe its closer to my view, but I dont have a soapbox the size of the southern medias to get that across, unfortunately noone seems to be looking objectively at those articles.

You admit to being biased. Why would the Irish Times be biased? Proper reasons please, no "the D4 meeja hate the culchies"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 11:03:15 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on July 31, 2012, 10:26:06 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 10:03:32 PM
Read what I said. I said - 'Which was why I corrected your suggestion about his children's school and asked for evidence of other dog fights he and Big Joe were in and also the suggestion that Quinn might have been calling in favours. I specifically linked you to the comments about his children's school not the dogfight or the calling in favours issue. I also specifically linked you to the mileage issue - So what exactly did you mean and what were you suggesting when you asked 'What is the mileage rate in Quinn's?'
Somebody has their knickers in a twist tonight. The mileage thing was a lame joke about GAA men liking their mileage paid! What else would it be?!  ???

No problem. Thanks for clearing it up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on August 01, 2012, 12:10:55 AM
Quote from: Aaron Boone on July 31, 2012, 10:22:35 PM
Are all those factories in Teemore/Ballyconnell still working and going good? If so, folks are still getting their wages.

Yeah the local workers are still in a job, my neighbour works in the glass factory and he says it's now pretty common knowledge that the new management does not intend upon renewing the furnace at the glass factory in 5-8 years time. The reasoning being a commercial glass factory is not feasible in a backwater like Cavan/Fermanagh and cannot compete with larger operations on the continent and those based in large commercial centres like London or those cities with a coastal border or rail network (Cork/Dublin).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on August 01, 2012, 08:14:32 AM
Quinn Insurance €1.6bn liability 'truly shocking'

AODHÁN Ó'FAOLÁIN

THE PRESIDENT of the High Court has described as "truly shocking" the revelation that €1.65 billion may be required from the Insurance Compensation Fund to meet claims and costs arising from the administration of Quinn Insurance.

Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns has sought the "clearest of explanations" for this information and has directed he be given it next week. It would be helpful if somebody from the Central Bank, which is responsible for regulating the insurance industry, also attended court then, he added.

He noted the court was originally told no funds would be required from the fund, then was told last October monies would be required from the fund and the cost of the administration would be approximately €738 million, a figure later increased to €775 million.

Now, in the space of a few months, the amount being sought from the fund "had more than doubled", the judge said. The net effect is that the Government levy imposed on motor and home policyholders will last "in perpetuity" and not for a limited number of years as originally envisaged by the Government, he noted.

As this involved public monies, the increased demand on the fund was something that required "the clearest of explanations" in "an open and transparent manner", he said.

The Government introduced a mandatory 2 per cent levy on policies this year, except health insurance, offered by all insurers to meet claims and costs arising from the Quinn Insurance administration. It was anticipated the levy would be imposed for 12 years.

The judge made his comments yesterday after receiving the latest report of the joint administrators appointed to Quinn Insurance by the Financial Regulator in 2010.

Lawyers for the administrators, Michael McAteer and Paul McCann, said a number of factors had led to the increase in the amount being sought from the Insurance Compensation Fund, including an increased and more pessimistic provision for claims, the Euro weakening against sterling and the reduced value of Quinn Insurance investments in assets, including property assets.

Bernard Dunleavy, for the administrators, said the figure was "an absolute ceiling" and based on a worst case situation. The actual level of drawdown was expected to be somewhere between €1.1 billion and €1.3 billion, he added.

Counsel agreed with the judge that the levy on policies would last longer than planned. Before the administrators took over the business, there had been a culture in Quinn Insurance, particularly in the UK, of under-provisioning the reserves needed for claims and the administrators were adopting a more prudent approach, he said.

Counsel said all matters in the report had been put before Minister for Finance Michael Noonan, who would continue to provide funding through the fund so Quinn can meet its costs. Counsel said Mr McAteer was willing to give evidence to answer any questions the court had.

The judge said he was adjourning to next Tuesday so all matter can be explained.

Previously, the court was told the fund payment is part of the deal under which Quinn Insurance was transferred to US company Liberty Mutual and Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly Anglo Irish Bank.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 08:41:47 AM
Declan. It's depressing but there is no chance of pro Quinn people here changing minds no matter what articles are reposted here.

Some interesting letters in today's Irish Times but they probably are all written by closet Dublin 4 rugby loving loafer wearing liberals who hate the GAA and culchies!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on August 01, 2012, 08:56:22 AM
QuoteDeclan. It's depressing but there is no chance of pro Quinn people here changing minds no matter what articles are reposted here.

Some interesting letters in today's Irish Times but they probably are all written by closet Dublin 4 rugby loving loafer wearing liberals who hate the GAA and culchies!

You're probably right SS. Listening to the debate between Burns and O'Toole last night I thought the most interesting aspect was when O'Toole said what surprised and shocked him and really what he was trying to find out was why decent, moral, law abiding citizens who have done a huge amount of good in the country and community like Harte, Darcy, Burns etc could justify their defence of Quinn when Quinn himself admitted that the 455 million was owed to the Irish people and that he was doing everything in his power to keep it from us by defying a court order. He just couldn't square that circle and Burns was stumped except to retreat to the standard position of that Quinn is basically a simple hard working man who created loads of jobs etc.
None so blind as those who cannot see I suppose
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on August 01, 2012, 09:21:06 AM
Or those who choose to not see.   8)
Mickey Harte is a much more respectful, clean living, god fearing, wiser and better man than many on here and many writing on this topic.   Without being disrespectful to your most valued thoughts, If you guys dont mind Ill take my lead from Mickey on this. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 01, 2012, 09:25:36 AM
Quote from: rrhf on August 01, 2012, 09:21:06 AM
Or those who choose to not see.   8)
Mickey Harte is a much more respectful, clean living, god fearing, wiser and better man than many on here and many writing on this topic.   Without being disrespectful to your most valued thoughts, If you guys dont mind Ill take my lead from Mickey on this.

What is your opinion on the legalities of this situation or do you need to check what Mickey says first?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 09:35:40 AM
Quote from: rrhf on August 01, 2012, 09:21:06 AM
Or those who choose to not see.   8)
Mickey Harte is a much more respectful, clean living, god fearing, wiser and better man than many on here and many writing on this topic.   Without being disrespectful to your most valued thoughts, If you guys dont mind Ill take my lead from Mickey on this.
What a pity the fcukin Quinns wouldn't be as clean living as Micky then.
Will Micky stump up the €4Bn that the Quinns are costing the people of the 26 Cos?
Easy to love the Quinns if you live in the 6 Cos. and haven't to pay for their depredations  >:( >:( >:(
Will Micky pay for the operations etc that will be put on long term hold because of his friends the Quinns?
Maybe he will pay for the Funerals of the people who will die on waiting lists or in ambulances because of the cuts that will be imposed to pay for the Quinns?
Maybe Micky and the rest might just look in the mirror and examine their "god fearing" consciences ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 09:40:34 AM
RRHF

I've scratched my head reading some posts on here but, in fairness, yours simply is unbelievable.

I have great respect for Mickey Harte, but I prefer to take my information from seasoned business analysts, court analysts, political analysts in print, radio and tv and from people I know for years whom I have sat down with over a few pints who know the inside track and who have filled me in on the bits that isn't/cannot be reported.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 01, 2012, 09:45:16 AM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 08:32:16 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 31, 2012, 05:42:22 PM
This is an excellent piece btw: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf (http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2012/quinn-claims/index.pdf)

Thanks for posting that. Ample evidence that Seán Quinn is a bare-faced liar whose assurances are utterly worthless

Yeah thanks for posting up the article alright. If TYP's was looking for evidence of Irish Times bias then this is it. I'll run through their points.

1) Argument about standing in front of Judge Dunne.
They're arguing two different points here. Quinn admitted that they (the family) had taken action to hold assets. But said that he wasn't directly involved in orchestrating it. Petey was the ringleader, and SQ had very little involvement in it as he hadn't been involved in the overseas properties. Two different points.

2) Claiming Quinn wasn't sacked by the Anglo

Talk about a straw man argument. Quinn was sacked by the share receiver that Anglo appointed.

3) Whether the dept is the Quinn Family's or Anglo's.

I'll give them this one. The judge ruled at the time that the Quinns owed the money , no arguments. But Sean Quinn made these comments at the weekend. Since then judge made his ruling in 2011 there has been charges against Anglo for share support and now the Quinns are contesting it. We'll find out next year who's right so can hardly hang Quinn here for arguing his side.

4) Argument about whether the regulator is right or wrong.

Again two separate arguments. Quinn said that it was right and proper that he was asked to stand down from QI. He never said that putting the company into administration was OK. So again who's lying here?

5) Whether SQ caused Anglo to fail

I think this has been put to bed. Most if not all economists admit that Anglo was f**ked regardless of Quinn due to their over exposure on the Irish property market. Remember Anglo got f**ked to the tune of £35B Quinn was involved in 2.8 of that.
You can hardly call Quinn a liar for what he said.

6) The figures about Quinns profits.

This one is laughable. Quinn had claimed that QG had made 4-5-600 M. They article openly admits it made 492M in 2007. Talk about Sh*te.

If people are holding this up as proof of a reason to hang Quinn, then I should put up the leaflet that was handed out at the rally. Both are equally one sided.



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on August 01, 2012, 10:04:39 AM
Why is Mickey Harte afraid of God, though?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 01, 2012, 10:06:07 AM
Cause he has Fermanagh primed for a big push for Ulster next year.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 01, 2012, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 09:40:34 AM
RRHF

I've scratched my head reading some posts on here but, in fairness, yours simply is unbelievable.

I have great respect for Mickey Harte, but I prefer to take my information from seasoned business analysts, court analysts, political analysts in print, radio and tv and from people I know for years whom I have sat down with over a few pints who know the inside track and who have filled me in on the bits that isn't/cannot be reported.


I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

Supersarsfields has done his and is doing his best to show how Quinn has been shafted here and to be fair to him has consistently said that Quinn is not without blame.

With regard to your bit in bold Shamrock Shore, I'd be interested in what information you've been told in the pub by those who are in the know as you seem very much of the view, admamant in fact,  that it's Quinns fault and that he's should take what's come his way and what will come his way and leave it at that.

The information you have might help those of us who are to a degree defending Quinn to open our minds to the possibility that Quinn should roll over and lie down.

But somehow, that's a scenario I cannot envisage. The 16 charges over share support as past few weeks has seen to that in my opinion.

But if you want to send me a PM with a broad synopsis, I'd be happy to take it on board.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 10:34:31 AM
No - I am not saying it's all Quinn's fault. What I am saying is that the actions of him and his family to frustrate the courts by hiding and shifting assets since then are despicable.

Quinn went to Anglo, cap in hand, to bail him out of the mess of his own doing. They then became superglued together and sank. Anglo made other mistakes for sure but time/courts will tell the truth - if only Quinn would allow it.

I won't be pm-ing anyone on anything relating to this nor do I want any.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 01, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 01, 2012, 10:17:17 AM
I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

It isn't a zero sum game. They're both guilty of corruption and the sooner a few more Bernie Madoff-style prison sentences are handed down, the better. It irks me though that Seán Quinn is so successfully turning this into a Jacks against culchies discussion when it should be about honest folk against greedy bastards.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 01, 2012, 10:45:31 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 10:34:31 AM
No - I am not saying it's all Quinn's fault. What I am saying is that the actions of him and his family to frustrate the courts by hiding and shifting assets since then are despicable.

Quinn went to Anglo, cap in hand, to bail him out of the mess of his own doing. They then became superglued together and sank. Anglo made other mistakes for sure but time/courts will tell the truth - if only Quinn would allow it.

I won't be pm-ing anyone on anything relating to this nor do I want any.


If only. Courts and finding the truth don't really go hand in hand.

Anglo was inevitably on the way down. Quinn losses didn't help.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on August 01, 2012, 10:46:24 AM
Quote from: deiseach on August 01, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 01, 2012, 10:17:17 AM
I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

It isn't a zero sum game. They're both guilty of corruption and the sooner a few more Bernie Madoff-style prison sentences are handed down, the better. It irks me though that Seán Quinn is so successfully turning this into a Jacks against culchies discussion when it should be about honest folk against greedy b**tards.

I'd like to see a lot of white collars in the clink as well.

The only aspect of this I'm in agreement with Quinn is that I'd like to see his court case with Anglo go ahead sooner rather than later.

And I think I speak for all GAA, sport loving, white, male, car owners, samsung mobile phone users out there.

P.S. I've supported the consolidation of jobs in the Fermanagh/Cavan area as I've bought Quinn cement, 70mm double foil backed cavity insulation and I even think my radiators are from the Quinn group, I've also bought drink in his pub on the drumcondra road as well.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bingo on August 01, 2012, 10:48:33 AM
Quote from: deiseach on August 01, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 01, 2012, 10:17:17 AM
I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

It isn't a zero sum game. They're both guilty of corruption and the sooner a few more Bernie Madoff-style prison sentences are handed down, the better. It irks me though that Seán Quinn is so successfully turning this into a Jacks against culchies discussion when it should be about honest folk against greedy b**tards.

Thats the crux of it for me. Initially I would have been looking at Quinn in a favourable light but the more I've heard and the more it goes on, he was no better than the bankers, the developers and the like, he wanted it all and the gambles he took were for all personal gain. Heard some serious back stories about it all from a friend in Dublin who is involved in the cleaning up the mess, its certainly not pretty or paints anyone in a favourable light.

Seems to be a massive divide between what people see in Quinn and the D4 developers. The main pro-Quinn camp seems to be saying that he created jobs and wealth etc, but the developers also created a massive swell of jobs and wealth as well. We all know how it ended up and how it got out of control with the developers also largely responsible, but they were risk takers, like Quinn, and created jobs on the back of it. Not defending them and its a simplistic approach.

I imagine the point we are at how and the rallys are about is what happens next.

But Jarlath Burns only made himself trying to debate it on the radio yesterday, way out of his depth.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 01, 2012, 11:07:35 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 01, 2012, 10:46:24 AM
Quote from: deiseach on August 01, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 01, 2012, 10:17:17 AM
I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

It isn't a zero sum game. They're both guilty of corruption and the sooner a few more Bernie Madoff-style prison sentences are handed down, the better. It irks me though that Seán Quinn is so successfully turning this into a Jacks against culchies discussion when it should be about honest folk against greedy b**tards.

I'd like to see a lot of white collars in the clink as well.

The only aspect of this I'm in agreement with Quinn is that I'd like to see his court case with Anglo go ahead sooner rather than later.

And I think I speak for all GAA, sport loving, white, male, car owners, samsung mobile phone users out there.


P.S. I've supported the consolidation of jobs in the Fermanagh/Cavan area as I've bought Quinn cement, 70mm double foil backed cavity insulation and I even think my radiators are from the Quinn group, I've also bought drink in his pub on the drumcondra road as well.

I agree with the first line highlighted but I disagree with your speaking out for me and intend to join the breakaway Galaxy Ace Association. I think this is the GAA Jarlath was speaking about.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: winghalfun on August 01, 2012, 11:33:50 AM
QuoteOne of the great strengths of the GAA was that "we stand by our own", Mr Kelly said, adding that if people were in the gutter it did not mean the GAA turned their backs on them.

Such a ridiculous statement from Sean Kelly.
The Quinns are a million miles (and even more £'s from being in the gutter) and are very much unlikely to be.

Also reading some of the statements from some of the other Ballypuddle Martyrs there was a lot of mention about justice.

What form would this justice take?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on August 01, 2012, 11:40:52 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2012, 09:58:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 31, 2012, 09:38:05 PM


That's a good article by Fitzpatrick.

How much money was lent by Anglo  "to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet"?
€2.8bn?   

Why was Quinn's 25% share deemed horrifying by Anglo?  was that due to the dodgy reckless nature of the share purchase?
How come Anglo were in the dark about Quinn's share purchase?
€450m.
Anglo weren't aware as he was using CFD s, essentially promises tom buy the shares.
They were probably horrified as the books would have to be opened up.
Thanks Leo.
Is that €450m loan the bone of contention, the alleged dodgy loan?
The bulk of the €2.8bn debt is not contested, a debt run up by Quinn's promises to purchase shares (CFD's)?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 01, 2012, 11:45:43 AM
Quote from: Main Street on August 01, 2012, 11:40:52 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on July 31, 2012, 09:58:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 31, 2012, 09:38:05 PM


That's a good article by Fitzpatrick.

How much money was lent by Anglo  "to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet"?
€2.8bn?   

Why was Quinn's 25% share deemed horrifying by Anglo?  was that due to the dodgy reckless nature of the share purchase?
How come Anglo were in the dark about Quinn's share purchase?
€450m.
Anglo weren't aware as he was using CFD s, essentially promises tom buy the shares.
They were probably horrified as the books would have to be opened up.
Thanks Leo.
Is that €450m loan the bone of contention, the alleged dodgy loan?
The bulk of the €2.8bn debt is not contested, a debt run up by Quinn's promises to purchase shares (CFD's)?

Sorry should have been clearer, the €450m loan I refered to was in the form of 10 loans to other parties (the Golden circle of conttrollable(!) clients)  to buy up shares to stop / slow the slide when SQ's exposure due to the CFD's became known.
Based on the charges brought against Anglo officials there were a further 6 loans to Quinn family members. I do not know the value of these (there are a number of figures bandied about from €450m to 2.1bn) nor what went to Quinn family / Quinn finance / Quinn Group.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 01, 2012, 11:51:40 AM
It's the other way about Main street. The 450 odd million isn't contested by the Quinns. The other 2.3B is.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on August 01, 2012, 11:59:27 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 01, 2012, 11:51:40 AM
It's the other way about Main street. The 450 odd million isn't contested by the Quinns. The other 2.3B is.


Except that (according to the media at least!) Quinn is deliberately trying to hide (from the state and by extension the taxpayers) the assets that the €450m loans were secured against.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 01, 2012, 12:11:01 PM
As claimed by Quinn the 450M has been more than covered by the assets that Anglo have taken tho.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on August 01, 2012, 12:22:17 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 01, 2012, 10:04:39 AM
Why is Mickey Harte afraid of God, though?

What the f**k do you mean by that?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on August 01, 2012, 12:22:56 PM
QuoteExcept that (according to the media at least!) Quinn is deliberately trying to hide (from the state and by extension the taxpayers) the assets that the €450m loans were secured against.

This isn't a claim, Quinn has said it himself - its factual and the courts agreed hence the contempt charge
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on August 01, 2012, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 01, 2012, 11:07:35 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 01, 2012, 10:46:24 AM
Quote from: deiseach on August 01, 2012, 10:37:03 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 01, 2012, 10:17:17 AM
I'm trying to keep an open mind in that I don't really know exactly what's going on and more importantly exactly what did go on at the time of the loans etc and what Quinn has done with the foreign property etc and if Anglo went for retrospective security, and stitching Quinn up to save their own hides. I've always held the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument and I don't envisage a situation where Quinn is 100% innocent of all wrongdoing nor is he 100% guilty either. Likewise Anglo. They will be without total guilt or total innocence.But I have maintained Quinn's right to defend himself in all of this.

It isn't a zero sum game. They're both guilty of corruption and the sooner a few more Bernie Madoff-style prison sentences are handed down, the better. It irks me though that Seán Quinn is so successfully turning this into a Jacks against culchies discussion when it should be about honest folk against greedy b**tards.

I'd like to see a lot of white collars in the clink as well.

The only aspect of this I'm in agreement with Quinn is that I'd like to see his court case with Anglo go ahead sooner rather than later.

And I think I speak for all GAA, sport loving, white, male, car owners, samsung mobile phone users out there.


P.S. I've supported the consolidation of jobs in the Fermanagh/Cavan area as I've bought Quinn cement, 70mm double foil backed cavity insulation and I even think my radiators are from the Quinn group, I've also bought drink in his pub on the drumcondra road as well.

I agree with the first line highlighted but I disagree with your speaking out for me and intend to join the breakaway Galaxy Ace Association. I think this is the GAA Jarlath was speaking about.

But Jarlath was only speaking on behalf of Silverbridge GAC and to a lesser extent Armagh GAA.

I'm speaking on behalf on the entire GAA community, worldwide and in particular the GPA, in effect, the entire playing population, including intercounty stars as well as junior club players.

I'm really surprised that the Quinns didn't give me a call, but then again I've said in the past that their cement isn't as good as blue circle.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on August 01, 2012, 12:29:58 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 01, 2012, 12:22:17 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 01, 2012, 10:04:39 AM
Why is Mickey Harte afraid of God, though?

What the f**k do you mean by that?

I didn't mean anything by it. Meaning is provided by answers, not questions. I was seeking meaning in rrhf's statement about Mickey's fear of God.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thejuice on August 01, 2012, 12:43:13 PM
I have ignored this story completely. I know little about Quinn or knowingly had any dealings with his companies.

It's just quirked my interest because people are now suddenly linking this case to the GAA. Can someone bring me up to date.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 01, 2012, 12:45:18 PM
Quote from: thejuice on August 01, 2012, 12:43:13 PM
I have ignored this story completely. I know little about Quinn or knowingly had any dealings with his companies.

It's just quirked my interest because people are now suddenly linking this case to the GAA. Can someone bring me up to date.

If you have any sense, go back to ignoring it
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 12:48:44 PM
Was the amount of the Irish bailout €85bn?

And the Irish tax payer are more up in arms with Sean Quinn and the disputed €2.8bn than they are with the Irish government, who must have taken in billions of euro in stamp duty and taxes during the Celtic Tiger or the bankers who were in charge of the countries money.... and where did all that money disappear to??

They are the government so they must be right and Quinn must be wrong.

Now that one has me stumped.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on August 01, 2012, 12:54:47 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 12:48:44 PM
Was the amount of the Irish bailout €85bn?

And the Irish tax payer are more up in arms with Sean Quinn and the disputed €2.8bn than they are with the Irish government, who must have taken in billions of euro in stamp duty and taxes during the Celtic Tiger or the bankers who were in charge of the countries money.... and where did all that money disappear to??

They are the government so they must be right and Quinn must be wrong.

Now that one has me stumped.

Stop trying to deflect. Nobody is defending the banks, but that doesn't mean SQ should be able to walk away from the mess he's in and which he largely got himself into.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 12:59:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 09:35:40 AM
Quote from: rrhf on August 01, 2012, 09:21:06 AM
Or those who choose to not see.   8)
Mickey Harte is a much more respectful, clean living, god fearing, wiser and better man than many on here and many writing on this topic.   Without being disrespectful to your most valued thoughts, If you guys dont mind Ill take my lead from Mickey on this.
What a pity the fcukin Quinns wouldn't be as clean living as Micky then.
Will Micky stump up the €4Bn that the Quinns are costing the people of the 26 Cos?
Easy to love the Quinns if you live in the 6 Cos. and haven't to pay for their depredations  >:( >:( >:(
Will Micky pay for the operations etc that will be put on long term hold because of his friends the Quinns?
Maybe he will pay for the Funerals of the people who will die on waiting lists or in ambulances because of the cuts that will be imposed to pay for the Quinns?
Maybe Micky and the rest might just look in the mirror and examine their "god fearing" consciences ?

Were all the austerity measures and cuts not due to the €85bn bailout??

Now surely you can't blame Quinn for that??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:02:11 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on August 01, 2012, 12:54:47 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 12:48:44 PM
Was the amount of the Irish bailout €85bn?

And the Irish tax payer are more up in arms with Sean Quinn and the disputed €2.8bn than they are with the Irish government, who must have taken in billions of euro in stamp duty and taxes during the Celtic Tiger or the bankers who were in charge of the countries money.... and where did all that money disappear to??

They are the government so they must be right and Quinn must be wrong.

Now that one has me stumped.

Stop trying to deflect. Nobody is defending the banks, but that doesn't mean SQ should be able to walk away from the mess he's in and which he largely got himself into.

Its all related to what the Irish taxpayer is getting so annoyed about... defend the government as they surely can't be the wrong do-ers in this. Quinn did more good for Ireland than all the pricks in Dublin over the last 20 years put together that's for sure  :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on August 01, 2012, 01:08:14 PM
QuoteWere all the austerity measures and cuts not due to the €85bn bailout??
Now surely you can't blame Quinn for that??

Much of the need for the bailout was driven by the failure of the banks. This was caused by the failure of people to pay back their loans, and Quinn is certainly among the biggest offender in this category, although of course he is not the only one.

QuoteIts all related to what the Irish taxpayer is getting so annoyed about... defend the government as they surely can't be the wrong do-ers in this.

The government clearly had bad policies in the past. What exactly are they doing wrong now?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on August 01, 2012, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:02:11 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on August 01, 2012, 12:54:47 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 12:48:44 PM
Was the amount of the Irish bailout €85bn?

And the Irish tax payer are more up in arms with Sean Quinn and the disputed €2.8bn than they are with the Irish government, who must have taken in billions of euro in stamp duty and taxes during the Celtic Tiger or the bankers who were in charge of the countries money.... and where did all that money disappear to??

They are the government so they must be right and Quinn must be wrong.

Now that one has me stumped.

Stop trying to deflect. Nobody is defending the banks, but that doesn't mean SQ should be able to walk away from the mess he's in and which he largely got himself into.

Its all related to what the Irish taxpayer is getting so annoyed about... defend the government as they surely can't be the wrong do-ers in this. Quinn did more good for Ireland than all the pricks in Dublin over the last 20 years put together that's for sure  :o

And that entitles him to act above the law, and give the two fingers to the Irish taxpayers??
If you feel strongly enough about it, why don't you start a collection in Fermanagh to cover the costs of the Quinn mess?
You can start with the ~€450m which he admits he owes but is refusing to pay, and the 2% levy on EVERY insurance policy taken out in the Republic to fill the hole created by Quinn Insurance.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 01, 2012, 01:08:14 PM
QuoteWere all the austerity measures and cuts not due to the €85bn bailout??
Now surely you can't blame Quinn for that??

Much of the need for the bailout was driven by the failure of the GOVERNMENT REGULATED banks. This was caused by the failure of people to pay back their loans, and Quinn is certainly among the biggest offender in this category, although of course he is not the only one.

QuoteIts all related to what the Irish taxpayer is getting so annoyed about... defend the government as they surely can't be the wrong do-ers in this.

The government clearly had bad policies in the past. What exactly are they doing wrong now?

The whole Quinn debacle is what they are doing wrong now!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 01, 2012, 01:35:44 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 01, 2012, 01:08:14 PM
QuoteWere all the austerity measures and cuts not due to the €85bn bailout??
Now surely you can't blame Quinn for that??

Much of the need for the bailout was driven by the failure of the GOVERNMENT REGULATED banks. This was caused by the failure of people to pay back their loans, and Quinn is certainly among the biggest offender in this category, although of course he is not the only one.

QuoteIts all related to what the Irish taxpayer is getting so annoyed about... defend the government as they surely can't be the wrong do-ers in this.

The government clearly had bad policies in the past. What exactly are they doing wrong now?

The whole Quinn debacle is what they are doing wrong now!

Go on break it down for us.

IRBC are trying to claim what they believe they are owed.
The Courts are trying to stop Quinns from hiding these assets until the liabilities can be determined.
What are the Government doing?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:40:07 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on August 01, 2012, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:02:11 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on August 01, 2012, 12:54:47 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 12:48:44 PM
Was the amount of the Irish bailout €85bn?

And the Irish tax payer are more up in arms with Sean Quinn and the disputed €2.8bn than they are with the Irish government, who must have taken in billions of euro in stamp duty and taxes during the Celtic Tiger or the bankers who were in charge of the countries money.... and where did all that money disappear to??

They are the government so they must be right and Quinn must be wrong.

Now that one has me stumped.

Stop trying to deflect. Nobody is defending the banks, but that doesn't mean SQ should be able to walk away from the mess he's in and which he largely got himself into.

Its all related to what the Irish taxpayer is getting so annoyed about... defend the government as they surely can't be the wrong do-ers in this. Quinn did more good for Ireland than all the pricks in Dublin over the last 20 years put together that's for sure  :o

And that entitles him to act above the law, and give the two fingers to the Irish taxpayers??
If you feel strongly enough about it, why don't you start a collection in Fermanagh to cover the costs of the Quinn mess?
You can start with the ~€450m which he admits he owes but is refusing to pay, and the 2% levy on EVERY insurance policy taken out in the Republic to fill the hole created by Quinn Insurance.

no-one is entitled to act above the law, as long as the law is being just. The law may have a vested interest in seeing this one go one way only.

Quinn Insurance was a highly profitable business by all acounts and I am pretty sure things could have been ironed out there if time was allowed. Why don't you start a collection in Fermanagh, the diamond is a busy spot in Enniskillen, I'll be down there around 5 to throw you some lose change but if I dont see you, let me know how you get on but don't expect a nice reception!!  :P
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on August 01, 2012, 01:46:24 PM
QuoteThe whole Quinn debacle is what they are doing wrong now!

What precisely are they doing wrong?

Quote
Quinn Insurance was a highly profitable business by all acounts

Anglo Irish Bank was a highly profitable business by all accounts, it isn't any more. Anyone can make money on the way up by not pricing risk properly. Even if Quinn Insurance was not Anglo, many businesses are much less profitable now than in 2007.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:47:58 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 01, 2012, 01:35:44 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 01, 2012, 01:08:14 PM
QuoteWere all the austerity measures and cuts not due to the €85bn bailout??
Now surely you can't blame Quinn for that??

Much of the need for the bailout was driven by the failure of the GOVERNMENT REGULATED banks. This was caused by the failure of people to pay back their loans, and Quinn is certainly among the biggest offender in this category, although of course he is not the only one.

QuoteIts all related to what the Irish taxpayer is getting so annoyed about... defend the government as they surely can't be the wrong do-ers in this.

The government clearly had bad policies in the past. What exactly are they doing wrong now?

The whole Quinn debacle is what they are doing wrong now!

Go on break it down for us.

IRBC are trying to claim what they believe they are owed.
The Courts are trying to stop Quinns from hiding these assets until the liabilities can be determined.
What are the Government doing?

IBRC = government  :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:52:54 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 01, 2012, 01:46:24 PM
QuoteThe whole Quinn debacle is what they are doing wrong now!

What precisely are they doing wrong?

Quote
Quinn Insurance was a highly profitable business by all acounts

Anglo Irish Bank was a highly profitable business by all accounts, it isn't any more. Anyone can make money on the way up by not pricing risk properly. Even if Quinn Insurance was not Anglo, many businesses are much less profitable now than in 2007.

Read through the thread, there's loads of examples of what many people feel they are doing wrong.

Anglo's figures were AMAZING at the time but unfortunatley they were fudged by Fitzpatrick et al thats the main reason why the whole Quinn mess happened in the first place.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 01, 2012, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:47:58 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 01, 2012, 01:35:44 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 01:29:24 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 01, 2012, 01:08:14 PM
QuoteWere all the austerity measures and cuts not due to the €85bn bailout??
Now surely you can't blame Quinn for that??

Much of the need for the bailout was driven by the failure of the GOVERNMENT REGULATED banks. This was caused by the failure of people to pay back their loans, and Quinn is certainly among the biggest offender in this category, although of course he is not the only one.

QuoteIts all related to what the Irish taxpayer is getting so annoyed about... defend the government as they surely can't be the wrong do-ers in this.

The government clearly had bad policies in the past. What exactly are they doing wrong now?

The whole Quinn debacle is what they are doing wrong now!

Go on break it down for us.

IRBC are trying to claim what they believe they are owed.
The Courts are trying to stop Quinns from hiding these assets until the liabilities can be determined.
What are the Government doing?

IBRC = government  :o

:-[ I walked into that one, but my query still stands. IRBC is trying to re-claim what it believes it is owed. It has loan agreements which are not being met and so is pursuing that debt on behalf of the taxpayer. What are they doing wrong?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 03:12:35 PM
So let's just saddle the taxpayers of the 26 and let those nice Quinns away with their disgraceful behaviour just because Anglo were a shower of cnuts too.
All the Quinn lovers would be singing a different tune if they were living this side of the Border.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 01, 2012, 03:15:45 PM
Feel free.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on August 01, 2012, 03:22:18 PM
By 1997 Quinn had already placed a bet using €750m out the Quinn finances to purchase these CFD's. If he had decided not to avail of Anglos's line of credit to cover the CFD losses, what would Quinn's liabilities have been? Would Quinn not have been liable for the CFD losses if he managed to ditch them for a song?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 03:22:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 03:12:35 PM
So let's just saddle the taxpayers of the 26 and let those nice Quinns away with their disgraceful behaviour just because Anglo were a shower of cnuts too.
All the Quinn lovers would be singing a different tune if they were living this side of the Border.

Sean Boylan, Colm O'Rourke, Sean Kelly, Michael O'Leary... all men of the 26.  :P dry your eyes ffs
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 03:23:53 PM
See Sean Kelly is under harness now too  :-X 

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fgs-kelly-backtracks-over-quinn-remarks-after-kenny-rebuke-3187100.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on August 01, 2012, 03:33:08 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 03:23:53 PM
See Sean Kelly is under harness now too  :-X 

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fgs-kelly-backtracks-over-quinn-remarks-after-kenny-rebuke-3187100.html

Did you expect the main govt party to support Quinn's contempt of court??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on August 01, 2012, 03:33:08 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 03:23:53 PM
See Sean Kelly is under harness now too  :-X 

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fgs-kelly-backtracks-over-quinn-remarks-after-kenny-rebuke-3187100.html

Did you expect the main govt party to support Quinn's contempt of court??

nope, they are the the ones trying to cover up the mesmeric fcuk up that has been made of the banking systems and public purse of Ireland... but if Kelly wanted to then he should have been allowed to
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 01, 2012, 04:02:26 PM
FFS  ::)

You may as well delete the "Feel free" post as well. Kinda looks outa place now!!



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 01, 2012, 04:30:18 PM
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/23897

Wonder will Gildernew & Flanagan be told to toe the party line?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 04:39:16 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 03:22:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 03:12:35 PM
So let's just saddle the taxpayers of the 26 and let those nice Quinns away with their disgraceful behaviour just because Anglo were a shower of cnuts too.
All the Quinn lovers would be singing a different tune if they were living this side of the Border.

Sean Boylan, Colm O'Rourke, Sean Kelly, Michael O'Leary... all men of the 26.  :P dry your eyes ffs

Maybe them and you might like to contact the family of the 19 year old girl who died in the back of an ambulance after a 2 and half hour trip because the A & E up the road from her was closed due to the loss of income to the State as a result of the activities of the Quinns and others of that ilk.
Would you like to stick your dirty tongue out at them and tell them to "dry their eyes FFS"

The Roscommon Hospital Action group or Ming will be able to give you  the family's number.
Absolutely sickening the sort of trash some people think are heroes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 04:56:17 PM
Ben Dunne has rowed in behind Sean Quinn

With friends like these........

Just to add some food for thought. You know the way Quinn lost 2.x billion on the CFDs. Nobody is arguing this.

Who won on the other side?

Were they Irish?
Did they get some insider tips on the Quinn exposure and filled their boots?
How complicit were the stockbrokers?
Who did Quinn use to built up his mental gamble?

Who trousered 2.x billion?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 01, 2012, 05:02:03 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 04:56:17 PM
Ben Dunne has rowed in behind Sean Quinn

With friends like these........

Now now. Mickey Harte says he's okay, and one Mickey Harte outweighs (so to speak) any amount of Ben Dunnes. Or Michael O'Learys.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 05:10:37 PM
No TYP. You are missing what happened. Quinn never bought the shares in Anglo that led to the big loss. He bought a margin in a trade. If the shares went up he was paid the margin. If the shares went down he forked over his loss to the middle man.

The 2.x bn did end up in someone's pocket(s). Literally.

But whos?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Never beat the deeler on August 01, 2012, 05:13:29 PM
Not really been following this except for on here, which has its own health warning, but read this article today which, while being a bit emotive at times, paints a fairly bad picture of the whole escapade.

Apologies if its nothing new to those following in more detail:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0731/1224321157051.html#.UBkcEIhWWBk.twitter (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0731/1224321157051.html#.UBkcEIhWWBk.twitter)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Saffrongael on August 01, 2012, 05:21:17 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 01, 2012, 04:30:18 PM
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/23897

Wonder will Gildernew & Flanagan be told to toe the party line?

Sinn Fein are riding different horses in different jurisdictions, as usual.

There is a piece about it here

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/08/01/sinn-fein-turning-on-a-sixpence-over-the-quinn-family-affair/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 01, 2012, 05:23:50 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 05:10:37 PM
No TYP. You are missing what happened. Quinn never bought the shares in Anglo that led to the big loss. He bought a margin in a trade. If the shares went up he was paid the margin. If the shares went down he forked over his loss to the middle man.

Never really understood the whole business until you explained it there. Keynes likened the stock market to a casino, but Quinn took him literally.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 05:28:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 04:39:16 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 03:22:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 03:12:35 PM
So let's just saddle the taxpayers of the 26 and let those nice Quinns away with their disgraceful behaviour just because Anglo were a shower of cnuts too.
All the Quinn lovers would be singing a different tune if they were living this side of the Border.

Sean Boylan, Colm O'Rourke, Sean Kelly, Michael O'Leary... all men of the 26.  :P dry your eyes ffs

Maybe them and you might like to contact the family of the 19 year old girl who died in the back of an ambulance after a 2 and half hour trip because the A & E up the road from her was closed due to the loss of income to the State as a result of the activities of the Quinns and others of that ilk.
Would you like to stick your dirty tongue out at them and tell them to "dry their eyes FFS"

The Roscommon Hospital Action group or Ming will be able to give you  the family's number.
Absolutely sickening the sort of trash some people think are heroes.

Large parts of the health service/HSE in Ireland are second rate, pretty depressing isn't it?

Blame your government Ross, they needed the €85bn bailout, they are in charge. Why is Ming an Independent TD and not a member of Fianna Fail, Fine Gael or Labour? Does he not believe they can give you or your constituency the attention it needs and deserves?

There is a certain amount of debate in this thread about which side is the most wrong or wronged... but

Could anyone argue that are more rational, impartial and intelligent Irish Government could have kept 5,000-8,000 people in direct employment, maybe another 40,000 indirectly, regulate the Quinn Group as a component of state finance with a 20-25 year percentage levy into the public purse and manage the Quinn group forward through massive global upheaval...?  Quinn's companies and employees generated an annual tax of over €300 million for the Irish Exchequer.

Whereas now we face the whole business being broken up and sold, removal of any long term interest in local job retention, the tertiary employment base this company produced has been ruined and the country's largest private (and profitable) corporation has essentially been destroyed.

Quinn unwittingly jeopardised this by his Investment "gambling" antics (unbeknown to him he was dealing with a pungent bank and bankers who were worse) but any forthright government would have dealt with this whole situation a whole lot better than what has been a mafia-style smash and grab job!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 07:03:42 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 05:28:34 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 04:39:16 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 03:22:45 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 03:12:35 PM
So let's just saddle the taxpayers of the 26 and let those nice Quinns away with their disgraceful behaviour just because Anglo were a shower of cnuts too.
All the Quinn lovers would be singing a different tune if they were living this side of the Border.

Sean Boylan, Colm O'Rourke, Sean Kelly, Michael O'Leary... all men of the 26.  :P dry your eyes ffs

Maybe them and you might like to contact the family of the 19 year old girl who died in the back of an ambulance after a 2 and half hour trip because the A & E up the road from her was closed due to the loss of income to the State as a result of the activities of the Quinns and others of that ilk.
Would you like to stick your dirty tongue out at them and tell them to "dry their eyes FFS"

The Roscommon Hospital Action group or Ming will be able to give you  the family's number.
Absolutely sickening the sort of trash some people think are heroes.

Could anyone argue that are more rational, impartial and intelligent Irish Government could have kept 5,000-8,000 people in direct employment, maybe another 40,000 indirectly, regulate the Quinn Group as a component of state finance with a 20-25 year percentage levy into the public purse and manage the Quinn group forward through massive global upheaval...?  Quinn's companies and employees generated an annual tax of over €300 million for the Irish Exchequer.


It's costing us €1.6Bn to keep the Cowboy Insurance part of Quinn going  >:(
But of course nobody in Fermanagh has to pay towards that so it's all fine and dandy >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on August 01, 2012, 07:12:20 PM
QuoteQuinn's companies and employees generated an annual tax of over €300 million for the Irish Exchequer.

Why would Quinn Health, for instance, generate less tax now?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on August 01, 2012, 08:21:55 PM
 Admit it... You guys took it lieing down when your government signed over the country to eternal indebtedness.  You done feck all but grumble meekly. Where was the anger then? Now as you realise What went on don't make revolutionary idealists out of yourselves. Your passiveness to those you elected and their reactive decision making was staggering.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on August 01, 2012, 08:28:46 PM
Quote from: rrhf on August 01, 2012, 08:21:55 PM
Admit it... You guys took it lieing down when your government signed over the country to eternal indebtedness.  You done feck all but grumble meekly. Where was the anger then? Now as you realise What went on don't make revolutionary idealists out of yourselves. Your passiveness to those you elected and their reactive decision making was staggering.

Do I sense a north v south thing going on here?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 01, 2012, 09:09:53 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 01, 2012, 07:12:20 PM
QuoteQuinn's companies and employees generated an annual tax of over €300 million for the Irish Exchequer.

Why would Quinn Health, for instance, generate less tax now?

Who said it would? But mud sticks.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on August 01, 2012, 11:17:06 PM
SQ interview with Vincent Browne on TV3 now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: CiKe on August 01, 2012, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 05:10:37 PM
No TYP. You are missing what happened. Quinn never bought the shares in Anglo that led to the big loss. He bought a margin in a trade. If the shares went up he was paid the margin. If the shares went down he forked over his loss to the middle man.

The 2.x bn did end up in someone's pocket(s). Literally.

But whos?

The middle man didn't win directly as he would be hedged. Let's say 5:1 leverage, I'm a bank, you give me EUR20 to take EUR100 long exposure to Anglo. I go and buy the EUR100 in the market and sell you the CFD with a given maturity which reflects my cost of funding that EUR100 e.g let's say is 6month trade, 5% interest rates and no dividends involved, then strike of the CFD is 100*(1+5%/2) = EUR102.5.

If stock goes up 1% I make 1% on the shares but I owe you 1% on the derivative. In theory given i have your EUR20 upfront as long as the shares are above EUR80 then I don't lose any money on the trade, but reality would be that under a Credit Support Annex there would be periodic posting of margin (from me to you if stock went up and form you to me if it went down).

How long he spent building this up and with what bank I don't know but the bank would have made:

i) commissions on the share activity charging SQ more than it cost them to buy them and also charging commissions to clients who wanted to sell their shares
ii) they would take a little margin on rates/dividends priced into the CFD

They would not however make anywhere close to the full notional amount - that has effectively been made if you like by the guys who sold the shares to the bank that was hedging the CFD. Some of these will have been guys cutting losses on long positions and others will have been short sellers I imagine - including possibly prop desks of banks, maybe even of the bank hedging the CFD though that would give rise to massive internal conflict of interest, doubtful whether would be approved or not.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 01, 2012, 11:26:50 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 08:41:47 AM
Declan. It's depressing but there is no chance of pro Quinn people here changing minds no matter what articles are reposted here.

Some interesting letters in today's Irish Times but they probably are all written by closet Dublin 4 rugby loving loafer wearing liberals who hate the GAA and culchies!

SS, the article that you were responding to would surely be a case of what the f**k are the administrators at, rather than 'see what else quinn has done!'. Why did they take over quinn insurance? Because it was under provisioning the reserves I thought? So they knew this, and the full extent when they said 'we'll need no money, that levy for a few years will do', a year or two later they're looking 1.3 bn!! How to f**k did that happen?? Theres no new evidence, they're clearly a bunch of useless c***ts who are f**king the whole thing up. Its great for them, anglo, and the irish governemnt that they can all just say 'quinn', and everyone goes, 'that ****, aw well, no worries, not your fault then!'. Are you honestly not at all thinking 'hmm, somethgins not right there (and not on quinns behalf), when you read that article??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 01, 2012, 11:29:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 01, 2012, 03:12:35 PM
So let's just saddle the taxpayers of the 26 and let those nice Quinns away with their disgraceful behaviour just because Anglo were a shower of cnuts too.
All the Quinn lovers would be singing a different tune if they were living this side of the Border.

Loving these rabid stupid comments every once in a while. Wheres ballyconnell?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 01, 2012, 11:48:47 PM
Quote from: deiseach on July 31, 2012, 10:34:24 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 31, 2012, 10:32:06 PM
And of course theres some bias in my post. My entire point is that theres a lot of bias in that article. It is pedantic and spun, and some of my post is. Like all with this case, the truth is somewhere in between, I believe its closer to my view, but I dont have a soapbox the size of the southern medias to get that across, unfortunately noone seems to be looking objectively at those articles.

You admit to being biased. Why would the Irish Times be biased? Proper reasons please, no "the D4 meeja hate the culchies"

Becuase it personalises it. Every journalist, and every journalistic publication seeks to connect with their reader. This is best acheived by personalising events, tragedies, triumphs, corruption, recession. How many people will turn the page if theres a story about faceless bankers losing a fortune, or a business being found guilty of something or other? A hell of a lot. Give them a hero or a villain, and you can make the least sexy news hot property = more sales. Quinns fits the pantomime villain perfectly, and theres plenty of ammunition in fairness. Its certainly not in the newspapers interest to row back on this image in the interest of fairness, they're trying to sell papers after all.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 02, 2012, 09:08:25 AM
Quote from: rrhf on August 01, 2012, 08:21:55 PM
Admit it... You guys took it lieing down when your government signed over the country to eternal indebtedness.  You done feck all but grumble meekly. Where was the anger then? Now as you realise What went on don't make revolutionary idealists out of yourselves. Your passiveness to those you elected and their reactive decision making was staggering.

Eh? Fianna Fáil, the party that supposedly could put up a monkey and get it elected, got massacred in the elections. There's your anger right there. As for Seán Quinn, he has literally shown total contempt for the courts. Maybe we should have put them all against a wall - but in those circumstances, Seán Quinn would unquestionably have been among the first
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on August 02, 2012, 09:34:31 AM
Quote from: deiseach on August 02, 2012, 09:08:25 AM
Quote from: rrhf on August 01, 2012, 08:21:55 PM
Admit it... You guys took it lieing down when your government signed over the country to eternal indebtedness.  You done feck all but grumble meekly. Where was the anger then? Now as you realise What went on don't make revolutionary idealists out of yourselves. Your passiveness to those you elected and their reactive decision making was staggering.

Eh? Fianna Fáil, the party that supposedly could put up a monkey and get it elected, got massacred in the elections. There's your anger right there. As for Seán Quinn, he has literally shown total contempt for the courts. Maybe we should have put them all against a wall - but in those circumstances, Seán Quinn would unquestionably have been among the first

Even a decent gun would overheat if you were to shoot every gobshite banker/politician/developer/Civil servant/regulator/economist/journalist who's had a dirty hand in the current mess facing the Irish taxpayer.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 02, 2012, 09:40:40 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 02, 2012, 09:34:31 AM
Even a decent gun would overheat if you were to shoot every gobshite banker/politician/developer/Civil servant/regulator/economist/journalist who's had a dirty hand in the current mess facing the Irish taxpayer.

There are times when I genuinely think a few shootings wouldn't go amiss. It was a couple of thousand parasites who created the mess so you wouldn't need more than a few guns. I row back from such thoughts when I think that you can't contain such a Reign of Terror, any more than they could in the original of the species in late 18th century France. But while politicians continue to behave as if public policy must be framed around keeping 'the markets' happy, the chances of such an eruption head towards 1
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on August 02, 2012, 09:44:11 AM
Quote from: CiKe on August 01, 2012, 11:17:44 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 01, 2012, 05:10:37 PM
No TYP. You are missing what happened. Quinn never bought the shares in Anglo that led to the big loss. He bought a margin in a trade. If the shares went up he was paid the margin. If the shares went down he forked over his loss to the middle man.

The 2.x bn did end up in someone's pocket(s). Literally.

But whos?

The middle man didn't win directly as he would be hedged. Let's say 5:1 leverage, I'm a bank, you give me EUR20 to take EUR100 long exposure to Anglo. I go and buy the EUR100 in the market and sell you the CFD with a given maturity which reflects my cost of funding that EUR100 e.g let's say is 6month trade, 5% interest rates and no dividends involved, then strike of the CFD is 100*(1+5%/2) = EUR102.5.

If stock goes up 1% I make 1% on the shares but I owe you 1% on the derivative. In theory given i have your EUR20 upfront as long as the shares are above EUR80 then I don't lose any money on the trade, but reality would be that under a Credit Support Annex there would be periodic posting of margin (from me to you if stock went up and form you to me if it went down).

How long he spent building this up and with what bank I don't know but the bank would have made:

i) commissions on the share activity charging SQ more than it cost them to buy them and also charging commissions to clients who wanted to sell their shares
ii) they would take a little margin on rates/dividends priced into the CFD

They would not however make anywhere close to the full notional amount - that has effectively been made if you like by the guys who sold the shares to the bank that was hedging the CFD. Some of these will have been guys cutting losses on long positions and others will have been short sellers I imagine - including possibly prop desks of banks, maybe even of the bank hedging the CFD though that would give rise to massive internal conflict of interest, doubtful whether would be approved or not.
So, Quinn taking a bet on the share price, took ownership of the 25% shares in Anglo that he bought with making a down payment and the rest over a period?
The seller still got that agreed price, even if the share price fell in value over that period.
If the share price went up, Quinn would just have gained the shares at a good price, he would still have to pay the agreed price for the shares or get rid of them at the higher value?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 02, 2012, 10:21:09 AM
Interesting takedown of Seán Quinn's Clint Eastwood-style self image here (http://www.anarkismo.net/article/23548). Is it correct that Quinn Insurance did not employ an actuary?!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 02, 2012, 10:26:17 AM
I see Constantin Gurdgiev pointing out on twitter that it wasn't SQ that loaded his gamble on the state.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 02, 2012, 10:35:43 AM
No more holidays in Kerry, Galway or anywhere else in the south for Peter Darah for a while it seems.

Peter Quinn says son will not return to Irish Republic


Peter Darragh Quinn's father has said his son will not be returning to the Irish Republic to face the prospect of jail.

Peter Quinn Senior said his son believes he has no chance of getting "fair play or justice".

Peter Darragh Quinn is the nephew of the bankrupt former billionaire, Sean Quinn.

He was sentenced to jail in his absence on 20 July after failing to turn up at a Dublin court.

Peter Darragh Quinn was due to be sentenced for contempt of court alongside his cousin, Sean Quinn Jr, who is now in prison.

He was pictured at a Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA) match in Kinawley, County Fermanagh, last weekend, alongside his father.

Peter Quinn Senior told The Impartial Reporter he believes there is a conspiracy in the Irish Republic against his family and said that although his son is "under a lot of pressure", his family is fully behind his decision to stay in Northern Ireland.

The authorities in the Republic of Ireland cannot force Peter Darragh Quinn to serve his sentence if he has left their jurisdiction.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 02, 2012, 10:38:41 AM
Quote from: deiseach on August 02, 2012, 10:21:09 AM
Interesting takedown of Seán Quinn's Clint Eastwood-style self image here (http://www.anarkismo.net/article/23548). Is it correct that Quinn Insurance did not employ an actuary?!

I didn't know that Quinn Insurance "was based on providing insurance to people who couldn't normally get insurance" ??

Is this correct ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 02, 2012, 10:44:55 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 02, 2012, 10:35:43 AM
No more holidays in Kerry, Galway or anywhere else in the south for Peter Darah for a while

Fermanagh to reach at least the quarter-finals next year!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 02, 2012, 10:50:12 AM
The Irish Times had a go at Quinn and his supporters on Tuesday. Yesterday they decided to have anothet go at Quinn and his supporters. They're doing a good job and trying their best to spread the anti - Quinn gospel.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0801/1224321232861.html?via=mr

Dishonest Quinn agenda well wide of GAA ethos

August 1st, 1912MARK DUNCAN and PAUL ROUSE

OPINION: Seán Quinn has made clear that his family's interests come before those of the State or the GAA's reputation

THE LINE-UP of GAA greats was certainly impressive – Joe Kernan, Mickey Harte, Seán Boylan, Colm O'Rourke, all decent men. All ex-players or managers with All-Ireland winning teams, all on the one platform and all, apparently, with a single, shared message: Seán Quinn and his family had been treated abominably by the former Anglo-Irish Bank and the institutions of the State.

They were victims, deserving of both the support of their fellow GAA members and a break from the authorities.

Among an estimated attendance of up to 4,000 Quinn family supporters in Ballyconnell on Sunday night, the GAA community was being summoned in defence of one of its own. As for Seán Quinn, the resolute and complete backing of GAA people is something he clearly takes for granted.

Addressing the large crowd, his voice quivering with emotion, Ireland's former richest man expressed his gratitude to the Fermanagh and Cavan GAA and, no less, the "whole GAA country".

The repeated invocation of the GAA in support of the Quinn family interest will surely be shocking to many of its members. There will be amazement that the very act of GAA membership should be construed as implying approval of actions that a High Court judge deemed "as far removed from the concept of honour and respectability as can be".

One might have thought that such a damning finding might have given some Quinn supporters, including those within the GAA, pause for deeper reflection. Not so, it seems. Subsequent to this judgment, and the order jailing Seán Quinn jnr and his cousin Peter – still at large – for contempt of court, the Teemore Shamrocks Gaelic Football Club in Fermanagh published a statement on its website decrying the "injustice inflicted on the Quinn Family" and urging their "fellow Gaels" to unite in opposition to the outrages being perpetrated against them.

The Teemore Shamrocks club is, of course, situated in that belt of Border counties where allegiance to the Quinn family appears, at times, to be almost religious in nature. It is an allegiance built on hard work and a business acumen that gave rise to a group of successful companies and which delivered much-needed employment to a region that might otherwise have succumbed to decay.

It is allegiance also derived from a generosity to local units of the GAA, arguably the dominant social organisation in many of the communities where he based his businesses.

Through the provision of employment and patronage, Quinn built a phenomenally powerful network of friends and allies and has, without question, contributed much to the economic and social development of the Border territory. Quinn's past achievements are therefore not in doubt, nor is his passion for, or commitment to, the GAA. But that does not excuse the recent actions of the Quinn family or the efforts of his supporters to align his interests with the ethos of the GAA.

The Quinn business empire took four decades to build and less than four years to collapse. There is patently nothing to rejoice in its demise – this is a familial, local and national tragedy. However, there is equally nothing to defend in the manner in which Quinn and his family have handled their unravelling fortunes.

Evidence of the secreting of assets, by means remarkable for their "dishonesty and deviousness", according to High Court judge Peter Kelly, is not contested. And the figures are staggering: the international property portfolio to which the Quinns are clinging is worth some €500 million.

It is difficult to envisage how such a squirrelling of private assets and wealth – in defiance of court orders – is compatible with the values of an association whose unique place in Irish life has been built on ideas of service, community and the redistribution of resources from top to bottom, from the centre to the periphery.

Yet, according to former Meath footballer and RTÉ pundit Colm O'Rourke, the GAA tradition of "solidarity" is one that should be readily and unquestionably extended to the Quinns. Fine Gael MEP and former GAA president Seán Kelly clearly agrees.

Interviewed on Radio Kerry, he remarked on how it was "part of the ethos" of the GAA to get behind a "decent family". The GAA, he added, "stand by our own".

Loyalty to friends in difficulty is, of course, an admirable trait. But the argument that the Quinns are GAA people, have made an enormous contribution to the GAA and are therefore deserving of the GAA community's uncritical and unqualified support is hardly tenable.

Can you imagine the reaction were the rugby fraternity to take to the streets or issue statements in support of the disgraced banker Seánie FitzPatrick, a former player and keen supporter of the game? Or if the soccer community were to publicly rally in defence of TD and well-known champion of the game Mick Wallace, in the wake of his admission that he deliberately withheld VAT from the Revenue Commissioners?

Individuals are entitled, of course, to support any cause they wish. But what is striking about the reported contributions of both those GAA personalities at the Ballyconnell rally and the former GAA president is the impression created that support for the Quinns is consistent with carefully nurtured GAA values – that it was, in fact, an "expression" of the GAA's great strength.

The GAA does indeed have a proud tradition of looking after its own, of showing solidarity with those in need. It is everywhere evident among GAA communities at home and abroad – in the comfort blanket it throws around members and their families at times of bereavement and tragedy and in the helping hand it has extended, for more than a century, to emigrants arriving isolated in far-flung countries.

Do the current circumstances of the Quinns, as outlined in the courts, really merit the same type of consideration? Ultimately, the problem with Quinn is not that he took a risk and lost. Many ordinary homeowners and small business people did likewise. No, the problem with Quinn is the calculated and complex efforts to put assets beyond the reach of his creditors – in this case, the State – to feather the nests of none but his family.

In the end, it will be up to the courts to decide the merits of the Quinn case against the former Anglo Irish Bank.

But in the manner in which he has conducted his campaign of public protest, as much as his dealings with the Irish courts, Quinn has demonstrated that there is nothing that is subordinate to the interests of his own family. Not the citizens of this State – and not the reputation of the GAA.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bingo on August 02, 2012, 10:53:36 AM
One question hasn't been asked yet and needs to be addressed:

Why wasn't the Banty on the Stage the other night in Ballyconnell?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 02, 2012, 10:56:36 AM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0801/1224321234656.html

Urban v  Rural debate

Quinn case exposes a fault line within GAAReconciling the cultural differences between the Ireland of close-knit local loyalties and that of major population centres isn't going to get any easier, writes SEAN MORAN

IT'S all happening for the GAA, as August – the crucible of the championship season – arrives with the most compelling set of football quarter-finals since the round was introduced 12 years ago.

In the background Eugene McGee's Football Review Committee has opened for business, canvassing views on the state of the game. On Sunday the demonstration in Ballyconnell in support of Seán Quinn and his family featured some expansive talk about the GAA standing up for the stricken border businessman and this was amplified on Monday when former GAA president Seán Kelly, now a Fine Gael MEP, approved of the demonstration as "an expression of moral support".

Earlier in the day, the television schedules for the weekend revealed RTÉ had exercised its priority option on the football quarter-finals by choosing to screen the Dublin-Laois match on Saturday evening, the timing and the champions' vast demographic making it the box-office fixture of the weekend even if the Donegal-Kerry contest is the most eagerly anticipated of the quarter-finals on football criteria.

TV3 have previously made no bones about their preference for Dublin matches, as they deliver big audiences. RTÉ has tended to take a broader view but on this occasion has passed on what would generally be considered the weekend's big match.

There are themes running through the above events and they create challenges for the GAA. The FRC has given itself a very broad remit in defining what areas it intends to explore. That includes rule changes and as a result the standing committee on rule changes in the games has effectively been put into dry dock until the football committee's findings are released later in the year. It will be a surprise if there isn't a groundswell of support for intensifying penalties applicable to cynical or "professional" fouling.

Already ideas have been floated such as the equivalent of basketball's team fouls – awarding close-in frees once a specified number of fouls have been committed in order to undermine the value of fouling in the opposition half of the field.

Suspensions for cumulative yellow cards are another item likely to be on the agenda in the near future. These would be excellent ideas because if punishments don't disadvantage the perpetrators, the overwhelming evidence suggests the breaking of rules for unfair advantage will continue.

Regularly we hear pundits talking about defenders "having no choice" but to pull down attacking opponents – an acceptance that disregarding rules is a legitimate tool in any team's equipment.

Confronting that attitude is a major task for Gaelic games because not alone do many club and county partisans believe their self-interest is more important than any rules that might get broken but when the authorities charged with enforcing those rules impose punishments and make their displeasure known, the same partisans invariably turn their cause into a campaign against injustice and "trial by media". So many of those boxes were being ticked in Ballyconnell, the wonder is there weren't even more GAA people demonstrating.

Supporters of Seán Quinn and his family business see decisions of the courts as injustice, not on the grounds of any reasonably identified shortcomings in the judgments reached so far but because Quinn has been a generous benefactor to the local communities both as an employer and a patron of local activities, especially the GAA.

Or, as Seán Kelly put it: "We'd probably do exactly the same thing down here in Kerry if someone who was very loyal to us was in difficulty."

Kelly was careful not to get involved in the rights and wrongs of matters before the courts, but his intervention wasn't helpful to the GAA as it helped sustain a view that the association is somehow collectively supporting the Quinns, which is simply not the case. Mickey Harte, Joe Kernan, Colm O'Rourke, Seán Boylan and Jarlath Burns are all entitled to their opinions but the issues at the heart of the Quinn business collapse are nothing to do with the GAA and there are many within the association who have a very different view of the facts as they have emerged.

The view that rules are handed down by people in Dublin to make life difficult for rural Ireland is not new and in recent times the GAA has had grounds for concern over a sense of alienation between the ordinary membership and the national administration in Croke Park. The urbanisation of modern society has been flagged as a big challenge for the GAA and reconciling the cultural differences between the Ireland of close-knit local loyalties and that of major population centres with their bumper demographics and less rooted communities isn't going to get any easier.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 02, 2012, 10:57:48 AM
Are the solicitors beginning to get twitchy now? From the times.


Why Anglo's former lawyers might have uneasy moments

THE RECENT charges brought against Seán FitzPatrick and two other former directors of Anglo Irish Bank must be leaving the bank's former corporate lawyers, Matheson Ormsby Prentice (MOP), shifting uncomfortably in their offices on the south Dublin quays.

FitzPatrick and the other two, Willie McAteer and Pat Whelan, were charged with providing unlawful financial assistance as a result of the bank's loans to six members of the family of Seán Quinn and the Maple 10 group of investors to buy shares in Anglo. The three men were charged with 16 offences under section 60 of the Companies Act, with one charge relating to each borrower.

MOP advised on the July 2008 transaction in which Quinn's massive investment in the bank held through contracts for difference was unwound with six Quinn family members taking a stake of 15 per cent and the Maple 10 taking a 10 per cent shareholding.

A letter from MOP to the directors of Anglo on July 22nd, 2008, outlined the advice they gave on the transaction, although it contains no specific reference to Maple 10. It included advice given on "the acquisition by each of certain other, unrelated parties, of less than 3 per cent each (in aggregate 13.4 per cent) of the issued share capital of the bank".

The letter says the firm advised Anglo on the basis of the information provided, that "on the basis that the lending to the Quinn shareholders was in all respects in the ordinary course of business of the bank and that the loans provided did not reduce the net assets of the bank, that the provision by the bank of loans for the purpose of the acquisitions of shares and the taking of security over the acquired shares did not constitute unlawful financial assistance contrary to the provisions of the Companies Acts 1963 to 2006." One wonders if MOP has been looking over the information provided by Anglo and the advice the firm gave in return in light of recent developments.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 02, 2012, 11:06:20 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 02, 2012, 10:26:17 AM
I see Constantin Gurdgiev pointing out on twitter that it wasn't SQ that loaded his gamble on the state.

That is true and is the reason I am not paying much attention to the "wont somebody think of the children" arguments.
However he did gamble with his money (peoples jobs?) and he did borrow to cover his losses. Whether it had been another bank or if it had been the bond market he borrowed from his actions in contempt of court to ensure he would not have to pay those debts back* are still wrong and should not be applauded.

*once their legitimacy or otherwise is determined.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 02, 2012, 11:17:07 AM
Sinn Fein 'distances itself' from Sean Quinn
By Jim Fitzpatrick


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19086995

Sinn Fein has distanced itself from the Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn.

Last week Fermanagh and South Tyrone MP Michelle Gildernew told a local paper Mr Quinn was an ordinary man treated disgracefully by the Irish government.

However, on Tuesday night the party's deputy leader Mary Lou McDonald said the Quinns had engaged in questionable business practice.

She said that loyalties and emotions should not get in the way of justice.

Mr Quinn has been embroiled in a legal battle over the debts he owes the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly the Anglo Irish Bank.

On Sunday, thousands turned out in Ballyconnell, County Cavan, to support Sean Quinn.

Sinn Fein's Michelle Gildernew also lent her support.

"He has been treated disgracefully by the Irish government," she told the Impartial Reporter newspaper.

"Had they not tried to strip him off all his assets, including his home, deny him the ability to function in business, and routinely try to humiliate him I believe he would have paid back every penny he owed to the Irish taxpayer.

"He accepted he had done wrong, but all our attempts to make the government show some common sense were ignored. He is being punished for having the audacity to buy the bank and for being an ordinary man from Fermanagh who is hugely respected by his community," she said.

However, Sinn Fein deputy leader Mary Lou McDonald took a different view on Tuesday night, saying money owed to the bank was money owed to the state.

"There are strong emotions in support of the Quinns," she said.

"This is understandable, however, neither loyalty nor emotion can be allowed to get in the way of justice being done in the Quinn case or, indeed, any other that may arise.

"The matter is before the courts and that is where the final judgement will be made.

"The Quinns chose to put a lot into the public domain concerning their case, including the fact that company law was breached and that they have moved assets beyond the reach of IBRC.

"As the IBRC is now fully state-owned, money owed to it by the Quinns is money owed the state.

"The Quinns have an obligation to abide by the law the same as any other citizen. They also have an obligation to work with IBRC to repay what they owe."

For many people in the border Sean Quinn is simply the man who brought jobs and prosperity.

But further south, people may be more concerned with the billions in debt he left behind, the hundreds of millions he tried to hide and the insurance levy due to mismanagement at Quinn Direct.

So, despite the numbers on the streets, political support is getting thinner on the ground.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 02, 2012, 11:19:00 AM
Can't argue with that Leo. He should have stopped what ever movement of assets they were conducting the minute the injunctions were put in place. (I prob vary from the majority here in that I don't begrudge any of the movement of assets that were done legally before the injunctions were put in place as that was a case of Anglo dropping the ball and he owes anglo no favours)

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 02, 2012, 01:48:00 PM
QuoteSeán Quinn's campaign - Courts must prevail in sorry affair (http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/sean-quinns-campaign--courts-must-prevail-in-sorry-affair-202515.html)

TUESDAY, JULY 31, 2012

Seán Quinn's contention, and at this point it is as valuable as any self-serving fantasy, that because the loans he accepted from Anglo Irish Bank may be tainted with illegality that he is not obliged to repay the billions borrowed is as delusional as it is contemptible.

That the debt is owed to the people of Ireland who have had to pick up the Anglo Irish tab — the thick end of €30bn — makes the contention almost seditious. That so many of his fellow citizens are in such dire straits because of the machinations of insatiable "investors" puts the contention in the let-them-eat-cake category of autocratic dismissals.

The vagaries of human nature suggest too that, had Mr Quinn's investment in Anglo been as profitable as he had once believed, it might then be the legal status of the transactions might never have been questioned.

That the Quinn family have freely admitted that they have tried — and possibly succeeded — to put hundreds of millions in assets beyond the reach of Irish courts and creditors — us — moves the melodrama on to an altogether different plane. It explains why Seán Quinn Jr is in Mountjoy serving a sentence for contempt of court, and why his cousin and business partner Peter Darragh Quinn is a fugitive from our courts.

It does not, however, explain why Seán Quinn Jr is enjoying the kind of preferential treatment in the jail's training wing that other prisoners must wait months or even years to enjoy. The Minister for Justice must explain why such advantageous and inequitable arrangements are being extended to Mr Quinn Jr.

It has not been established that the loans were administered illegally by Anglo Irish Bank, but even if it eventually is, how does that change the obligation, freely entered into — indeed, eagerly sought — by Mr Quinn and his family to repay the huge sums involved?

Is Mr Quinn suggesting, as it seems he is, that two wrongs would make a right? Is he suggesting that misconduct on the part of the bank — and this is just a claim not yet tested in court — nullifies his loan agreements with the bank? Is he suggesting that taxpayers, already hard-pressed and facing another hair-shirt budget in a few months, should pay his multibillion-euro gambling bills?

Over the weekend, an estimated 4,000 people, including some national GAA figures, held a rally in Ballyconnell, Co Cavan, to support Mr Quinn. This was an admirable if misplaced display of tribal loyalty. Mr Quinn has many business and community achievements he can be very proud of. That cannot be denied. However, his exploitation of that well-intended loyalty was as calculated as the court performances that prompted Mr Justice Peter Kelly in the High Court to say that, despite dealing with a growing number of cases involving "national and international fraud, sharp practice, chicanery and dishonesty", he had never seen anything like the conduct of the Quinn family.

Loyalty must be tempered with judgement or else it becomes blind and destructive. We must also decide if we are to be loyal to individuals or to principles, in this instance it seems impossible to be both. As King Canute discovered, the tide cannot be held back and no matter how loudly Mr Quinn and his supporters protest our courts must prevail in this sorry affair. Any other conclusion would be disastrous for society. The really sad thing is that the Quinn family knows that too
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on August 02, 2012, 01:52:47 PM
must.....resist.......posting any futher.......views.....opinions.....


Feck it - my one last comment

I see that piece that deiseach has posted is from The Irish Examiner aka The Cork Examiner aka Da Paper

Not exactly a 'Dublin 4 meeja' piece
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 02, 2012, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 02, 2012, 01:52:47 PM
must.....resist.......posting any futher.......views.....opinions.....

My name is deiseach and I'm PostingontheQuinnInsuranceinAdministrationthreadaholic
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 02, 2012, 04:13:05 PM
Jim really likes Sean Quinn - fairly unbiased reporting here -

What are the facts in the Sean Quinn case?

By Jim Fitzpatrick

BBC NI economics and business editor
 
Sean Quinn was once Ireland's richest man in the UK
There has been much comment about former billionaire businessman Sean Quinn, who has been embroiled in a legal battle over the debts he owes the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly the Anglo Irish Bank.

At the height of his success, Mr Quinn was the 12th richest man in the UK and the richest in Ireland, employing thousands, mostly in the previously job-starved cross-border area of Fermanagh and Cavan.

In April 2011, control of his business empire passed into the hands of the IBRC.

Later that year Sean Quinn declared himself bankrupt in a Belfast court, making him the biggest bankrupt in UK history.

On 26 July, a Dublin judge found that Mr Quinn, his son, Sean Quinn jnr and a nephew, Peter Darragh Quinn, hid millions in assets from the bank.

Mr Quinn jnr and Peter Darragh Quinn were given three-month jail terms.

Here are some key facts:

Sean Quinn didn't invest in Anglo Irish Bank, he bet on it
If all he'd done was buy shares, his losses would have been limited.

But Sean Quinn chose a dangerous financial instrument called Contracts for Difference (CFDs) to build up a 25% stake in Anglo Irish Bank.

It was a leveraged bet on the share price - if it his bet had come good, he would have made billions, but because it went bad he lost more than five times his initial huge stake.

He literally bet the bank and both bank and Quinn went down. His losses totalled more than 3.2bn euros at the end, with Anglo on the hook for 2.8bn euros.

Anglo didn't encourage Sean Quinn money to build this stake
Anglo Irish Bank was horrified when it discovered the scale of Sean Quinn's stake because they knew they could both go down if the full story was public.

It was a fatal embrace. The reason some directors of Anglo now face criminal charges is because of money lent to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet.

Even Sean Quinn has never publicly suggested that Anglo wanted him to build a 25% stake through CFDs in the bank.

Sean Quinn broke the law before the bank moved in
Sean Quinn was removed from his insurance business by the regulator because he had broken the law.

He had used funds from his insurance business to prop up other parts of the group. It was a serious offence.

The regulator eventually put the entire business into administration because he found the Quinn management were still breaking the rules and there was a massive black hole in the finances. This happened a year before Anglo moved to take control of the rest of the empire.

Sean Quinn now accepts that the actions of the regulator were "right and proper".

Meanwhile all insurance policies in the Republic are now subject to a 2% levy indefinitely to fill the financial hole found in Quinn Insurance.

The family had no viable plan to pay back the money
Once the insurance business was taken from family control, their offer to repay the 2.8 billion euros owed went up in smoke.

The fact that their plan relied upon cash from the insurance arm was not reassuring to a regulator who'd found that they had repeatedly broken the rules not to use money from the regulated business to support the rest of the group.

On 7 March 2011 (one month before Anglo took over the rest of the group) the family's lawyers stated clearly in a letter to Anglo that their offer to repay "was made solely in the context of our clients retaining economic control of Quinn Insurance".

The regulator had already ruled that out, it was not a matter within Anglo's control.

The family did promise to honour loans of 455m euros
In that same letter to Anglo (obtained from Swedish court archives during my investigation for BBC Spotlight) the family's lawyers state: "Your client is aware that 455m euros of loans related to our clients' investments in their international property portfolio (IPP).

"These loans are performing and our clients have met the interest schedules on them, as clearly demonstrated by a review of the attached schedule."

The attached information is headed "Schedule of Valid Property Loans from Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Limited".

Sean Quinn didn't just "frustrate" the bank
The reason Sean Quinn, his son and nephew, are guilty of contempt is because they took actions to interfere with the business and shift assets after Anglo had taken control last April and in breach of specific court injunctions obtained in June.

These actions include Sean Quinn falsifying documents in July (three months after he was ousted) to take control of a Moscow office block worth 180m euros and put it into an offshore company in Belize.

He falsified the documents to make it look like it was done while he was still in charge, but in fact he was a bogus director using fake documents to move very real and valuable assets beyond the reach of the taxpayer-owned bank.

Far from going to court and owning up to this course of action, as Sean Quinn has recently suggested he did, he denied all this in court.

He merely admitted taking steps to frustrate the bank while he was still in charge of the company. The judge didn't believe him.

Sean Quinn isn't defying Anglo alone
He's defying the Irish courts.

It is the courts - not Anglo - that have found him in contempt.

Judge Kelly described the scheme he authorised as one of "mesmeric complexity" that "reeked of dishonesty and sharp practice". It is the courts that have ruled that the debt must be honoured.

The legitimacy of the disputed loans will be determined
There is a case that will be heard over the legitimacy of the disputed 2.3bn euros loans.

But in the meantime the Quinns are legally bound to honour the court rulings.

If, ultimately, the 2.3bn euros is ruled illegal and unenforceable then they will be due compensation.

Supporters say this must be determined first, and it is right to hide assets in the meantime.

They say the actions taken to date are an attempt to bankrupt the Quinn family so they can't fight that other case.

But it is contradictory to ignore current court orders on the basis that you believe a future court decision will go your way. That suggests you only obey the law when it obeys you. It also ignores the undisputed 455m euros of debt the family have always agreed is owed.

Judge Elizabeth Dunne summarised this key argument in her contempt judgement: "Instead of trying to repay the admitted debt due, the Quinn family and in particular the respondents have taken every step possible to make it as difficult as can be to recover any amount due.

"They have engaged in a complex, complicated and, no doubt, costly, series of steps designed to put the assets of the IPG (International Property Group) beyond the reach of Anglo, in a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner.

"They have consciously misled courts here and elsewhere. They have sought to deprive Anglo of the assets which would go some way to discharging an admitted indebtedness.

"The behaviour of the respondents outlined in evidence before me is as far as removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be."

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 02, 2012, 04:54:41 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 31, 2012, 08:16:15 PM
What are the facts in the Sean Quinn case?

By Jim Fitzpatrick
BBC NI economics and business editor

There has been much comment about former billionaire businessman Sean Quinn, who has been embroiled in a legal battle over the debts he owes the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly the Anglo Irish Bank.

At the height of his success, Mr Quinn was the 12th richest man in the UK and the richest in Ireland, employing thousands, mostly in the previously job-starved cross-border area of Fermanagh and Cavan.

In April 2011, control of his business empire passed into the hands of the IBRC.

Later that year Sean Quinn declared himself bankrupt in a Belfast court, making him the biggest bankrupt in UK history.

On 20 July, a Dublin judge found that Mr Quinn, his son, Sean Quinn jnr and a nephew, Peter Darragh Quinn, hid millions in assets from the bank.

Mr Quinn jnr and Peter Darragh Quinn were given three-month jail terms.

Here are some key facts:

Sean Quinn didn't invest in Anglo Irish Bank, he bet on it
If all he'd done was buy shares, his losses would have been limited.

But Sean Quinn chose a dangerous financial instrument called Contracts for Difference (CFDs) to build up a 25% stake in Anglo Irish Bank.

It was a leveraged bet on the share price - if it his bet had come good, he would have made billions, but because it went bad he lost more than five times his initial huge stake.

He literally bet the bank and both bank and Quinn went down. His losses totalled more than 3.2bn euros at the end, with Anglo on the hook for 2.8bn euros.

Anglo didn't encourage Sean Quinn money to build this stake
Anglo Irish Bank was horrified when it discovered the scale of Sean Quinn's stake because they knew they could both go down if the full story was public.

It was a fatal embrace. The reason some directors of Anglo now face criminal charges is because of money lent to unwind and offload Sean Quinn's bet.

Even Sean Quinn has never publicly suggested that Anglo wanted him to build a 25% stake through CFDs in the bank.

Sean Quinn broke the law before the bank moved in
Sean Quinn was removed from his insurance business by the regulator because he had broken the law.

He had used funds from his insurance business to prop up other parts of the group. It was a serious offence.

The regulator eventually put the entire business into administration because he found the Quinn management were still breaking the rules and there was a massive black hole in the finances. This happened a year before Anglo moved to take control of the rest of the empire.

Sean Quinn now accepts that the actions of the regulator were "right and proper".

Meanwhile all insurance policies in the Republic are now subject to a 2% levy indefinitely to fill the financial hole found in Quinn Insurance.

The family had no viable plan to pay back the money
Once the insurance business was taken from family control, their offer to repay the 2.8 billion euros owed went up in smoke.

The fact that their plan relied upon cash from the insurance arm was not reassuring to a regulator who'd found that they had repeatedly broken the rules not to use money from the regulated business to support the rest of the group.

On 7 March 2011 (one month before Anglo took over the rest of the group) the family's lawyers stated clearly in a letter to Anglo that their offer to repay "was made solely in the context of our clients retaining economic control of Quinn Insurance".

The regulator had already ruled that out, it was not a matter within Anglo's control.

The family did promise to honour loans of 455m euros
In that same letter to Anglo (obtained from Swedish court archives during my investigation for BBC Spotlight) the family's lawyers state: "Your client is aware that 455m euros of loans related to our clients' investments in their international property portfolio (IPP).

"These loans are performing and our clients have met the interest schedules on them, as clearly demonstrated by a review of the attached schedule."

The attached information is headed "Schedule of Valid Property Loans from Anglo Irish Bank Corporation Limited".

Sean Quinn didn't just "frustrate" the bank
The reason Sean Quinn, his son and nephew, are guilty of contempt is because they took actions to interfere with the business and shift assets after Anglo had taken control last April and in breach of specific court injunctions obtained in June.

These actions include Sean Quinn falsifying documents in July (three months after he was ousted) to take control of a Moscow office block worth 180m euros and put it into an offshore company in Belize.

He falsified the documents to make it look like it was done while he was still in charge, but in fact he was a bogus director using fake documents to move very real and valuable assets beyond the reach of the taxpayer-owned bank.

Far from going to court and owning up to this course of action, as Sean Quinn has recently suggested he did, he denied all this in court.

He merely admitted taking steps to frustrate the bank while he was still in charge of the company. The judge didn't believe him.

Sean Quinn isn't defying Anglo alone
He's defying the Irish courts.

It is the courts - not Anglo - that have found him in contempt.

Judge Kelly described the scheme he authorised as one of "mesmeric complexity" that "reeked of dishonesty and sharp practice". It is the courts that have ruled that the debt must be honoured.

The legitimacy of the disputed loans will be determined
There is a case that will be heard over the legitimacy of the disputed 2.3bn euros loans.

But in the meantime the Quinns are legally bound to honour the court rulings.

If, ultimately, the 2.3bn euros is ruled illegal and unenforceable then they will be due compensation.

Supporters say this must be determined first, and it is right to hide assets in the meantime.

They say the actions taken to date are an attempt to bankrupt the Quinn family so they can't fight that other case.

But it is contradictory to ignore current court orders on the basis that you believe a future court decision will go your way. That suggests you only obey the law when it obeys you. It also ignores the undisputed 455m euros of debt the family have always agreed is owed.

Judge Elizabeth Dunne summarised this key argument in her contempt judgement: "Instead of trying to repay the admitted debt due, the Quinn family and in particular the respondents have taken every step possible to make it as difficult as can be to recover any amount due.

"They have engaged in a complex, complicated and, no doubt, costly, series of steps designed to put the assets of the IPG (International Property Group) beyond the reach of Anglo, in a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner.

"They have consciously misled courts here and elsewhere. They have sought to deprive Anglo of the assets which would go some way to discharging an admitted indebtedness.

"The behaviour of the respondents outlined in evidence before me is as far as removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be."

sounds so good it should be on the thread twice  :-[
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 02, 2012, 08:40:13 PM
Quote from: Bingo on August 02, 2012, 10:53:36 AM
One question hasn't been asked yet and needs to be addressed:

Why wasn't the Banty on the Stage the other night in Ballyconnell?

I think they were looking for personalities who would then 'duck the media' as the indo reported it. Theres no way that banty could ever turn down any microphone, so he wasnt asked  ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 02, 2012, 09:44:45 PM
Quote from: Bingo on August 02, 2012, 10:53:36 AM
One question hasn't been asked yet and needs to be addressed:

Why wasn't the Banty on the Stage the other night in Ballyconnell?

He's history now. Ex Meath manager doesn't have a great ring about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on August 02, 2012, 09:47:07 PM
Quote from: Bingo on August 02, 2012, 10:53:36 AM
One question hasn't been asked yet and needs to be addressed:

Why wasn't the Banty on the Stage the other night in Ballyconnell?
Hopefully because he has more sense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 02, 2012, 10:15:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 02, 2012, 09:47:07 PM
Quote from: Bingo on August 02, 2012, 10:53:36 AM
One question hasn't been asked yet and needs to be addressed:

Why wasn't the Banty on the Stage the other night in Ballyconnell?
Hopefully because he has more sense.

Ah come on now, theres hoping and then theres hoping!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on August 03, 2012, 06:06:47 PM
GAA statement in response to coverage of last Sunday's rally in Ballyconnell
Friday, August 03, 2012

The GAA is a non-party political organisation whose individual members may, of course, decide to take positions on a range of issues in accordance with their own personal views.

As an Association, however, it would be entirely inappropriate for the GAA to become involved in matters outside its remit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on August 03, 2012, 06:33:50 PM
I wonder does Peter Quinn Snr, a former president, think the GAA is now part of the conspiracy that he alleges exists or is the so-called conspiracy simply restricted to the following:

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 03, 2012, 08:26:15 PM
Wtf are you talking about SS?

Btw, did you reconsider the article about those now running Quinn ins, given that they went in with their eyes open, saying they wouldnt need anything extra, and a year or two down the line they're saying they need 1.3bn? The courts were none too happy with them, but of course, all they had to do was menion quinn and you and others said 'that f**ker, no worries lads, 2bn is it yous need?' I didnt ask before because you expressed a desire to stop posting on this thread so I said fair enough, but if you're so bored as to be posting the above then you probably should have a think about it.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 03, 2012, 08:39:29 PM
Don't rise to the pathetic bait.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on August 03, 2012, 08:50:51 PM
FFS - I am talking about something else - where Peter Quinn said that there is a conspiracy against his family in the Irish Republic.

I am asking - albeit in a tongue in cheek fashion only by adding Jedward - who he thinks are behidn this conspiracy. To allege a conspiracy at the levels he has to be alluding to would suggest that we are living in a society where the organs of State can ride rough shod over an individual's rights.

If Peter Quinn is not saying that then I am wrong and will delete the post.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 03, 2012, 08:58:44 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 03, 2012, 08:50:51 PM
FFS - I am talking about something else - where Peter Quinn said that there is a conspiracy against his family in the Irish Republic.

I am asking - albeit in a tongue in cheek fashion only by adding Jedward - who he thinks are behidn this conspiracy. To allege a conspiracy at the levels he has to be alluding to would suggest that we are living in a society where the organs of State can ride rough shod over an individual's rights.

If Peter Quinn is not saying that then I am wrong and will delete the post.
Most people apart from Jedward...

" Says Peter Quinn: "There is a conspiracy to make sure he doesn't win the case, involving Anglo, the Government including the Department of Finance and the regulatory body, including the Central Bank."There is systematic and systemic collusion to make sure Sean Quinn doesn't win the case. That's why the whole series of side issues are being taken to court first, to dry up funds," says Mr. Quinn."And they are succeeding with the support of the national media, including RTE, BBC and the national dailies."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 03, 2012, 08:59:39 PM
No, you arent asking who he thinks is behind the conspiracy, you're trying portray a very sensible (unecessary, but presumably they were sick of a shower of meeja c***ts ringing them and had to say something to shut them up) statement from the gaa as though it were anti-quinn. Its not, it states all of that is outside its remit. So its got sweet f**k all to do with any conspiracy anyone mentioned, despite your attempts to link it in a  ::) way.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 03, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 03, 2012, 08:58:44 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 03, 2012, 08:50:51 PM
FFS - I am talking about something else - where Peter Quinn said that there is a conspiracy against his family in the Irish Republic.

I am asking - albeit in a tongue in cheek fashion only by adding Jedward - who he thinks are behidn this conspiracy. To allege a conspiracy at the levels he has to be alluding to would suggest that we are living in a society where the organs of State can ride rough shod over an individual's rights.

If Peter Quinn is not saying that then I am wrong and will delete the post.
Most people apart from Jedward...

" Says Peter Quinn: "There is a conspiracy to make sure he doesn't win the case, involving Anglo, the Government including the Department of Finance and the regulatory body, including the Central Bank."There is systematic and systemic collusion to make sure Sean Quinn doesn't win the case. That's why the whole series of side issues are being taken to court first, to dry up funds," says Mr. Quinn."And they are succeeding with the support of the national media, including RTE, BBC and the national dailies."

.............so, government then??

Well, why dont they bite the bullet, and hear quinns case then? What have they got to lose?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 03, 2012, 09:06:57 PM
You do understand that the judiciary are independent of the government, the same way the regulators are separate from Anglo
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on August 03, 2012, 09:12:24 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 03, 2012, 08:50:51 PM

would suggest that we are living in a society where the organs of State can ride rough shod over an individual's rights.


And you think that the organs of State have never ridden rough shod over an individual's rights?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 03, 2012, 09:16:10 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 03, 2012, 09:06:57 PM
You do understand that the judiciary are independent of the government, the same way the regulators are separate from Anglo

That's the way it SHOULD be.  :-\
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 03, 2012, 09:16:43 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 03, 2012, 09:06:57 PM
You do understand that the judiciary are independent of the government, the same way the regulators are separate from Anglo

Whatever about judicary and government, what about regulator and government? Really?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on August 03, 2012, 10:28:18 PM
Regulator is totally independent of the Government as is the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement.

The judiciary pride themselves on being free from political interference and we have been served well by same judiciary since 1922.

Some Gardaí have let the State down for sure. McBrearties (spelling may be off), Nicky Kelly to name but two who had their rights pissed on by out-of-control Gardaí. They eventually got their good names restored and more power to them.

But to suggest that there is an organised conspiracy, as Peter Quinn Snr is saying, involving so many different organisations in the Republic of Ireland, is, frankly, in my opinion, banannas.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 03, 2012, 10:35:54 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 03, 2012, 09:16:43 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 03, 2012, 09:06:57 PM
You do understand that the judiciary are independent of the government, the same way the regulators are separate from Anglo

Whatever about judicary and government, what about regulator and government? Really?

Do you really believe there is a government led conspiracy to get Sean Quinn?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 03, 2012, 10:51:26 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 03, 2012, 09:06:57 PM
You do understand that the judiciary are independent of the government, the same way the regulators are separate from Anglo

The judiciary don't see themselves as part of the state? What do you make of this?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0802/1224321296119.html

Politicians have no shame, no morals, only contempt for anybody they deem below their social status. What really galls me is that these reprobates wouldn't know a hard days work if it jumped up and bit them on the arse.  They are the true leeches of society, sucking us dry to line their own pockets with absolutely no regard for the hardship and misery they are causing.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on August 03, 2012, 11:29:19 PM
Just to be clear here, who's sucking us dry and causing hardship and misery?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on August 04, 2012, 12:50:10 AM
Monica lewinskey
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on August 04, 2012, 12:54:11 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on August 03, 2012, 10:28:18 PM
Regulator is totally independent of the Government as is the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement.

The judiciary pride themselves on being free from political interference and we have been served well by same judiciary since 1922.

Some Gardaí have let the State down for sure. McBrearties (spelling may be off), Nicky Kelly to name but two who had their rights pissed on by out-of-control Gardaí. They eventually got their good names restored and more power to them.

But to suggest that there is an organised conspiracy, as Peter Quinn Snr is saying, involving so many different organisations in the Republic of Ireland, is, frankly, in my opinion, banannas.
So I take it "some Gardai" and "out-of control-gardai" are to blame for the Magdalene laundries, abuse of children in state schools, Bertie's bungs, ignoring clerical abuse of children, the issuing of the Digifone licence, FF gun running and Charlie Haughey's corruption as well? You think certain members of the cabinet and in the courts were not complicit in these events going unpunished for years? They mightn't have whole-heartedly sanctioned them but a blind eye here and a favourable decision there would make a big difference.

Quoteinvolving so many different organisations

Bullshit. I don't think Mary answering the phones down at the IBRC is going to be involved on a determined drive to down the Quinn's. Likewise the whole of the IRBC, the courts and the administrators don't meet up every Monday and say "right lads, how'll we f**k 'em this week". The initial decision to oust Quinn was made by the IBRC, a government subsidiary, the decision was made at the top level, knowing Quinn was hugely indebted to Anglo they came across a flaw in Quinn insurance and they had two options, tell him to fix the ratio quickly and keep the show running or f**k him out of it. They fucked him out of it thinking Quinn would take his beating and lie down whilst they flogged off his assets to plug the hole in the Irish exchequer (Like sellotaping the hull of the titanic). Anglo get a portion of the 70billion it farted into the wind, a failed billionaire gets publicly hung out to dry, so everybody wins.

Only thing is Quinn doesn't take it lying down and looks to challenge the IBRC/government anyway he can as he feels aggrieved. Like someone having their home repossessed by the bank and looking to appeal it due to unfair dismissal. Only difference is it's a multi-billion appeal case directly against a penniless government so it's in the country's interest to see Quinn getting shafted. Quinn looks for grounds to lodge an appeal and discovers Anglo's loans could be share-fixing amongst other evidence, government realise they could be on shaky ground so decide the best thing is to bury Quinn to make sure his appeal never sees the light of day, seize more assets, flog 'em off, delay his case so that when he does come calling he has f**k all to fit with or fight for. Quinn fucks up by hiding assets, courts find out and have perfect reason to jail him and the media lap it all up with the angle of jail-skipping, corrupt crook fucks Paddy on the dole and then it's posted here.

It doesn't take much for what Peter Quinn says to be true. A top-level decision by 5-6 people to keep Quinn's ticking over to see if he can turn it around or oust him. They decide to oust him. Everybody below does what he's told because "he's broke/insurance ratio etc". Quinn fights against it, guys at the top fear he might have a case, option to slow down and admit some wrongdoing or go full hog bury Quinn and his case. Decide to bury him, seize assets flog them off, get a judge who is unlikely to be favourable to Quinn. Media takes their side because it's all dublin-based. In a recession rich people are the baddies and Quinn's a perfect figurehead to hang out to dry. You don't have to have Enda ring up Kevin Myers and tell him "the government is trying to down Sean Quinn and could you give us a hand". Denis O'Brien (moral guardian) own's half of the national media so I'd say Quinn couldn't expect much from him or the likes he'd employ (wouldn't be too many reared on the likes of a sandpit in Fermanagh).

Anyway you'll probably just rubbish all of that so just answer this in your reply.

If Quinn succeeds in his appeal case against the government/Anglo, what will the financial cost be to the government? Given they would have to return the assets illegally acquired off him and also the assets they have sold. That figure could be up on 2billion could it not?

Say Quinn won, could you imagine the coalition surviving losing such a case?

Now given that Irish politicians and civil servants have been notorious for lining their own pockets and serving their own interests do you think that for 2 billion euro and their seat at the cabinet table they would agree it's in the national interest to see Quinn go down irrespective of the law?


Quotewe have been served well by same judiciary since 1922.

I'd be careful who you'd say that to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 04, 2012, 08:17:01 AM
I have to agree with pretty much all that but that's us culchie's with shocking paranoia... The Irish government have made a total fcuk up of the Irish economy over the last 15 years and the need a fall guy because their mismanagement can't be shown up for everyone to ridicule cos things could get ugly then.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on August 04, 2012, 10:09:00 AM
TYP the cement is split over 2 sites. The original factory was in Fermanagh and the new factory is in Cavan. They are about 2 miles from each other
The glass factory is in Fermanagh as well as the lite block factory.
The radiator factory is in Cavan and i think that quinn therm is based in Cavan as well. all there factories are within 2 miles of each other.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on August 04, 2012, 10:09:32 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 04, 2012, 09:08:32 AM
Just a question.

Why are Quinn's businesses in hospitality, glass, radiators, cement and insulation in Cavan and not Fermanagh the county he loves so well and whose people adore him while his insurance business was aimed at the UK market?

As was his bankruptcy  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on August 04, 2012, 10:16:25 AM
There' ll be a few of the baying wolves on here reading that, who will regret many of their comments now.  A few resignations from the board mightn't go amiss.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on August 04, 2012, 10:32:48 AM
Has there been a more divisive figure since Roy Keane 10 years ago?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0804/1224321434497.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on August 04, 2012, 11:53:08 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 04, 2012, 09:08:32 AM
Just a question.

Why are Quinn's businesses in hospitality, glass, radiators, cement and insulation in Cavan and not Fermanagh the county he loves so well and whose people adore him while his insurance business was aimed at the UK market?

He doesn't employ within a mile radius. Many of his former workers were from Fermanagh or even here in Tyrone, more still respect him for the good work he done and the business he built. But sure we shouldn't be adoring someone with invention and hard work, we should be applauding those hard-working teachers who spend half the year on strike whilst sucking off the government tit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 04, 2012, 01:05:02 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 04, 2012, 11:53:08 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 04, 2012, 09:08:32 AM
Just a question.

Why are Quinn's businesses in hospitality, glass, radiators, cement and insulation in Cavan and not Fermanagh the county he loves so well and whose people adore him while his insurance business was aimed at the UK market?

He doesn't employ within a mile radius. Many of his former workers were from Fermanagh or even here in Tyrone, more still respect him for the good work he done and the business he built. But sure we shouldn't be adoring someone with invention and hard work, we should be applauding those hard-working teachers who spend half the year on strike whilst sucking off the government tit.
He is certainly good at invention. Stories mainly it seems.

Quinn will never be short of boys to polish his boots with boys like you and Sammy about.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on August 04, 2012, 01:08:19 PM
Ridiculous comment Trileac - and no I'm not a teacher.
Those comments you made could equally apply to the many Drug smugglers ,oil smugglers and various other criminals who were inventive and made loads of money.
Anyway the main reason people are upset over the "saint" Quinns is their insistence that they are somehow above the Law no matter what they did and their total contempt for the Courts and taxpayers of the 26 Cos.

Good to see the GAA ( 5 days too late) distancing itself from the "Support the Quinns" camp.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 01:47:41 PM
No they couldnt you p***k.

And theres no insistence that Quinn is above the law. Everyone has acknowledged Quinn has done wrong,and deserves some punishment for that.

However, it appears he is being made very much a scapegoat. The very nature of justice is that it must be fair, and equal for everyone. Its that it appears not to be equal for everyone, that people who support quinn are railing at. The full weight of the law is being thrown at quinn, while others who are more culpable are being sheltered. And its not that its a case of wanting him to get off just becuase others have, its that in this case there is very much shared culpability; if other cases were heard in court then a fuller picture of the circumstances surrounding these dealings would become better  known, and the blame apportioned more fairly, i.e., not all, or even largely, at Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 04, 2012, 01:49:37 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 01:47:41 PM
And theres no insistence that Quinn is above the law. Everyone has acknowledged Quinn has done wrong,and deserves some punishment for that.

Really? What punishment do you think should fit his crime?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on August 04, 2012, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 01:47:41 PM
No they couldnt you p***k.

And theres no insistence that Quinn is above the law.

Oh dear . Mods Personal abuse  ;) the sign of a thick man losing an argument.

Peter Dara Quinn and his father seem to be insisting PD is above the Law.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 02:09:06 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 04, 2012, 01:49:37 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 01:47:41 PM
And theres no insistence that Quinn is above the law. Everyone has acknowledged Quinn has done wrong,and deserves some punishment for that.

Really? What punishment do you think should fit his crime?
Fine him. Take a core part of his business off him even.

If you then decided to really take the piss and get yourself and your mates out of the firing line you could make him public enemy no 1 in these easy steps:

Nationalise his main creditor (who falsified records to portray a better picture of themselves for investors than the true one), thus allowing every bollocks going to spout about how he owes the 'taxpayer' money, and being able to pin all the welfare, healthcare etc cuts wholly on him.

Not give him the chance to pay back the above debt, (which he was keen to do even thought the legality of it is very much in question), rather opting to come in and take over all of his businesses, businesses which he had built up from nothing over many years, and get rid of him and his family from said businesses.

Despite having taking over all of his businesses, go after his family personally, and their assets, citing the fact that they were gaurantors for an illegal loan which was never anything to do with the taxpayer in the first place - this is strongly disputed (and its highly unlikely to say the least that any loan would be agreed to which used the familys personal assets as collateral when theres a group there to be used).

At this point, having driven him to breaking point, charge him with contempt when procedures are put in place to safeguard some assets (and anyone who says that if they were in the same situation and had a chance to remove assets from the scope of a recovery, and wouldnt take it, they're a liar), jail his son and nephew.

And of course, play all the above out in as public an eye as can by mustered, so that his reputation and character is ruined forever.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 02:18:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 04, 2012, 02:07:03 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 01:47:41 PM
No they couldnt you p***k.

And theres no insistence that Quinn is above the law.

Oh dear . Mods Personal abuse  ;) the sign of a thick man losing an argument.

Peter Dara Quinn and his father seem to be insisting PD is above the Law.

No, its the sign of someone getting exasperated by the rabid yapping of a p***k.

Really? Tell me, when or how did they insist this? They expressed a disbelief in the likelihood of getting a fair trial. They didnt say they were above the law and shouldnt be being tried, or perhaps you have evidence they did?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 04, 2012, 02:25:55 PM
Hmm. We can all get the answers we want if we get to ask the questions. But Seán Quinn doesn't get to ask the questions, the law and the courts do. And as things stand, it has been demonstrated that he gave personal guarantees for debts to the tune of €500 million. It has been demonstrated that Anglo/IBRC are entitled to pursue those guarantees. It has been demonstrated that Seán Quinn did everything he possibly could to hid those debts thus demonstrating contempt for the Irish courts. And for that, he has to be punished. Making up non-existent penalties ("Fine him") is to live in a fantasy world
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 04, 2012, 02:26:55 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 02:18:27 PM
Really? Tell me, when or how did they insist this? They expressed a disbelief in the likelihood of getting a fair trial. They didnt say they were above the law and shouldnt be being tried, or perhaps you have evidence they did?

A distinction without a difference
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 02:37:36 PM
Thats the point - the questions being asked aren't the right ones in this whole affair.

They refused to try to come to a deal that would ensure everyone was paid. They went after quinn with an unnecessary viciousness. It should never have came to what it did, and its to the shame of the government that it did. At what point should he be stopped being victimised? Its an attempt to run him into the ground, its far beyond trying to get the money recovered, and everyone can see that.

Also, that isnt a distinction without a difference at all. Are all political refugees for eg  proclaiming themselves to be above the law? (for example I said, not a comparison, before you jump on it gleefully)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 04, 2012, 04:23:39 PM
http://m.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0804/1224321434497.html?via=mostread

Nation's malaise visible in venom flung at Quinn

Saturday, August 4, 2012
MICHAEL HARDING
The Irish are angry but also psychotically ill. Why else target a man who really did his best?
SO NO doubt I'm wrong about Seán Quinn. He has been sneaking around Cavan General Hospital stealing the incubators in the maternity unit and digging his greasy fingers in the moneybox in Barnardos.
At least that's the impression I get from Fintan O'Toole's neat equations about how this giant of industry has been carrying on. A man who I mistakenly thought had spent 40 years developing factories in Cavan and Fermanagh, with fewer grants than Fás would find for coffee breaks. And in counties which, up to recent years got precious little from Free State, semi-State or the wobbly British state except decades of ridicule for being so poor that they ate their dinners out of drawers.
Apparently Quinn was not a man trying to generate jobs at all in that depressed area. He was actually oppressing the people all around him. It's funny how we get things wrong in Ireland. So wrong that we're always divided regarding public figures.
Thirty years ago some intellectuals used to propagate the notion that two sides of the same drumlin were different countries with different cultures and imaginations. You either agreed with partition or you were against it. Either for Dev or Collins. For Haughey or FitzGerald.
Always split down the middle. For Roy Keane or against. For the Rossport Five. Against the fracking. It's all black and white, and nothing stirs the Gaelic juice more than an enemy, a scapegoat, a bad bastard you can get angry with on some live radio talk show.
We're a psychotic nation in the grip of negative rhetoric, suffering from a rage that has never been diagnosed. The Civil War in Ireland didn't create divisions. It was merely another symptom of a very deep malaise.
We relish scapegoats like the English revere the queen or the French enjoy sex. We could have given the Dáil powers to go after the big business crooks in last year's referendum but we preferred to have a toothless parliament and do the gnawing ourselves on the wireless. Maybe we are such a damaged, wounded and colonised little tribe that we don't have the cultural or collective power to ever overcome that negative rage. Perhaps the Republic is just not viable as a spiritual or cultural entity anymore. We may need outside help for more than banking.
Even in culture, there are civil wars. I'm thrilled to be doing a gig in August at Cavan Fleadh with Eleanor Shanley where the great and amazing De Danann are on the bill. I told this to a friend recently and she said "which De Danann?" because apparently there are two De Dananns. The old one and the new one. And two Wolfe Tones. And half a dozen Sinn Féins. And as many republican armies as you're having yourself. We just need to be against someone. So Seán Quinn has stepped into the limelight. He's the bad guy and those who support him are deluded and so enthralled to his feudal lordship that they would kiss the rod that beats them.
I drove through Fermanagh on Wednesday and passed familiar landmarks. The house where an old couple were killed. The school where a teacher was shot. The shop where the dismembered body of a local was found in the fridge. The pub where a boy from Ballyconnell died because he recognised the eyes behind a balaclava. I passed the site of an old garage where an IRA leader was taken out by the SAS. But I saw all those blood-soaked fields now transformed because people voted for change, and played democracy intelligently. And all the while they worked for Seán Quinn.
I saw houses where people grew up poor, and vulnerable to a life of enslavement by the IRA or UVF but found they could earn a living and have a social life and fall in love and get married and have children and rear them in houses with two toilets and still have money to educate their own children. Liberation doesn't come any crisper than that. And Seán Quinn put every sinew of his energy over 40 years into that process of development.
He is an ordinary man who showed leadership in his community. And to call him an oppressor or suggest those who admire him are kissing the rod that beats them is as jaundiced as an artist who once sneered at me and said, "Isn't the Slieve Russell a pretentious name for a hotel in west Cavan?" I replied, "Russell is the name of the feckin' mountain."
To suggest that the support of Brian D'Arcy, a professional journalist with the BBC, a man hounded and victimised by the church, implies that the church supports Seán Quinn is a coat-trailing equation that old-time preachers in galvanised churches one hundred years ago would have been proud of.
Seán Quinn was reared on bread and jam, with the very poorest of creatures and he often wept at their graves on the slopes of Slieve Russell and the shores of Lough Erne. His mother was cross but clever and his siblings went to college but he just got the mountains and the meadows, all 25 acres, and no schooling after primary school. He passed his childhood playing football and driving tractors and his first teacher, Elizabeth Dunne, said before she died that he was the most popular cub ever darkened the school door.
One day his father darkened the door looking for Seán because the weather was good for hay. Ms Dunne said, "You can surely have him 'cos he'll not do anything for me." They had been painting workers in the hayfields and Seán had his arms folded and half the page was green and the other half blue. And the teacher asked, "Where are the men making hay?" and Seán said, "Please Miss, it wasn't ripe so they went home." Whenever a baby died in his own extended family, it was Seán who brought home the little white coffin from Enniskillen or Belfast.
His father sold a bit of land to a gravel man one time and, after he died, Seán said, "I'm going to keep that land and sell the gravel", and so he bought a lorry and his mother signed over the land and she did the phones for him as he began the business.
Elsewhere people were lying in ditches waiting to blow someone's brains out, but from the start Seán Quinn would have no truck with them, and those who know the hidden history of the Troubles will agree that he never paid a penny of protection money though they sometimes burned his machinery. Which is ironic because there are those who will also say certain Irish banks along the Border in fear of being burned out were able to structure their equations smooth enough for money to slide into dubious causes, and grease palms that held Kalashnikovs.
Maybe he was never as clever as the bankers, though tragically he had a huge respect for Anglo-Irish. That's the real story. D'Arcy nailed it in a question last weekend: "Were the accounts that Anglo-Irish presented to Seán Quinn authentic, audited, correct and honest?"
And suppose it was ever proven that Anglo-Irish offered Quinn false documents in its dealings with him. Suppose the accounts were all sly equations that hid the real situation in that bank. Would he be culpable then? If he believed them and they swindled him? Because even a dimwit peasant in trepidation of the master's rod can see that Quinn didn't destroy Anglo-Irish. Anglo-Irish destroyed Quinn, and the country. And for Quinn to be the target of the nation's vitriol and venom says more about the nation's disease than it does about Seán Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 04, 2012, 04:53:50 PM
SQ gambled the Quinn group and lost it, he has accepted that.
He has also accepted that it was the right decision by the regulators to take over Quinn Insurance.

There seems to be a few boys on here who haven't got their heads round this yet.

His being pilloried in the media is down to his contempt of court which he has also admitted to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on August 04, 2012, 05:20:32 PM
Michael Harding's article above is off the point. Of course Quinn did not good work and deserves people's gratitude for that. No doubt he had a false impression of the value of Anglo Irish bank, although he didn't make much of an effort to investigate. But he borrowed the money and he has to pay it back and not hide assets that can be used to pay it back. The country is in a mess and people, especially biollionaires, cannot be excused paying back things (if they have the assets) because they now think the loan was a bad idea. Quinn is the biggest and so has more effort put into sorting him than others.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 05:48:50 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 04, 2012, 04:53:50 PM
SQ gambled the Quinn group and lost it, he has accepted that.
He has also accepted that it was the right decision by the regulators to take over Quinn Insurance.

There seems to be a few boys on here who haven't got their heads round this yet.

His being pilloried in the media is down to his contempt of court which he has also admitted to.

Sure it is. I believe his contempt is a recent development, the vilification is not.

Anyway, if he has accepted all this, then what has he not accepted? Why is he in contempt?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on August 04, 2012, 06:00:22 PM
QuoteSure it is. I believe his contempt is a recent development, the vilification is not.

People had a lot of sympathy of Quinn losing his business and so on. They initially would have understanding for Quinn being slow to give the ball back, but as it has become apparent that he has kicked it away then the sympathy has turned to criticism.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 06:41:02 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 04, 2012, 06:00:22 PM
QuoteSure it is. I believe his contempt is a recent development, the vilification is not.

People had a lot of sympathy of Quinn losing his business and so on. They initially would have understanding for Quinn being slow to give the ball back, but as it has become apparent that he has kicked it away then the sympathy has turned to criticism.

Absolute bollocks, a revision of history. Right from the start he has been made an example of and vilified, not just in the last two months. Just look back through this thread.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 04, 2012, 07:46:03 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 05:48:50 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 04, 2012, 04:53:50 PM
SQ gambled the Quinn group and lost it, he has accepted that.
He has also accepted that it was the right decision by the regulators to take over Quinn Insurance.

There seems to be a few boys on here who haven't got their heads round this yet.

His being pilloried in the media is down to his contempt of court which he has also admitted to.

Sure it is. I believe his contempt is a recent development, the vilification is not.

Anyway, if he has accepted all this, then what has he not accepted? Why is he in contempt?

Are you genuinely asking these questions? ???
He has not acepted that the loans were against Quinn finance / personal gaurantees. I remain neutral on this until the cases are heard.
He is in contempt because he moved assets against the the wishes of the courts. These should have remained frozen until the above question was answered.
If the loans were not personally guaranteed the Quinns hold onto them. If they had gauranteed the loans then they owe the bank. By moving the properties Quinns were saying that no matter what the court decided regarding the legality or otherwise of the loans they were holding onto the properties.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 07:57:23 PM
Well there you go. He believes there is no personal gaurantee, the contempt charge stems from this.

So your post earlier was missing a vital piece of information - you attempted to portray the whole affair as though Quinn agreed with everything that had happened to him, and accepted it, including the contempt, and that 'some lads' were pretty stupid not to have realised this.

But as you've kindly pointed out, he actually didnt really agree with everything, did he?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 04, 2012, 10:41:40 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 07:57:23 PM
Well there you go. He believes there is no personal gaurantee, the contempt charge stems from this.

So your post earlier was missing a vital piece of information - you attempted to portray the whole affair as though Quinn agreed with everything that had happened to him, and accepted it, including the contempt, and that 'some lads' were pretty stupid not to have realised this.

But as you've kindly pointed out, he actually didnt really agree with everything, did he?

Perhaps if you read what I said.  I said he accepted that he gambled and lost the Quinn group and that he accepted the Regulators were correct in their taking over Quinn Insurance.

I said he admitted the contempt. I did not say he accepted it, the upcoming court case comes from his not accepting that the loans were personal and as you note I have already stated this so I am not sure what vital piece of information I was missing.

The contempt comes from his acting in defiance of a ruling by the courts.

Could you also point out where I said some lads were pretty stupid?
Title: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: T Fearon on August 04, 2012, 11:42:48 PM
Headline news on RTE tonight.He now confusingly says that he's neither a politician nor does he understand the ins and outs of the case,but merely went to Ballyconnell because he was asked and he's a neighbour of the Quinns.Despite this shallow argument displaying an intellect below that of Father Dougal Maguire,is this an attempt to distance himself or has he got a belt from the crozier?
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 04, 2012, 11:46:12 PM
What odds what he thinks?
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: Ulick on August 04, 2012, 11:47:20 PM
He's a long time media whore who's just realised the Quinn thing maybe isn't the populist joyride he thought it was going to be.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: LeoMc on August 04, 2012, 11:47:51 PM
Today FM had Sean Kelly saying he wasn't there. Didnt realise anyone claimed he was.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: armaghniac on August 05, 2012, 12:29:26 AM
You are half a day late, D'Arcy was interviewed this morning on radio. Theo Dorgan was on afterwards and described him as running with the hare and hunting with the hounds.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: magpie seanie on August 05, 2012, 12:35:13 AM
Bit harsh on Brian D'arcy I think. I'm not particularly a fan of his and definitely not the Quinns but I don't think he should have been singled out. It would be a very difficult situation if you were friendly with the Quinns. I don't think they're bad people but they made bad decisions that other people will pay for.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: Jonah on August 05, 2012, 02:00:02 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 04, 2012, 11:46:12 PM
What odds what he thinks?
Why because he's a Priest?

No one cares what you think either yet you are forever spouting shit like its fact on here.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 05, 2012, 03:41:51 AM
Quote from: Jonah on August 05, 2012, 02:00:02 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 04, 2012, 11:46:12 PM
What odds what he thinks?
Why because he's a Priest?
Yup.

Quote
No one cares what you think either yet you are forever spouting shit like its fact on here.

Probably. And it's a good bet nobody cares what you think, I know I certainly don't. Point...?
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: T Fearon on August 05, 2012, 05:05:53 AM
I think the key point here is his admission that he was asked to attend and foolishly did so without examining the full implications.Presumably Kernan,Harte,Boylan etc were also specifically "asked" to attend by the Quinns,proof positive that the whole exercise was cynical.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: mylestheslasher on August 05, 2012, 09:01:24 AM
Doesn't sound like he is distancing himself rather explaining himself.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fr-brian-darcy-defends-his-support-for-quinns-3190024.html
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: haranguerer on August 05, 2012, 09:44:46 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 05, 2012, 05:05:53 AM
I think the key point here is his admission that he was asked to attend and foolishly did so without examining the full implications.Presumably Kernan,Harte,Boylan etc were also specifically "asked" to attend by the Quinns,proof positive that the whole exercise was cynical.

Lol! You tool! Did you think the whole lads just happened to take a notion of driving to ballyconnell, found themselves all standing beside each other, took a rush of blood to the head, then stormed the stage??

Of course they were all asked you fool, not by the quinns, but the organisers I imagine. Are you sure now you dont want to suggest they were threatened, or forced at gunpoint to partake?
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: haranguerer on August 05, 2012, 09:47:32 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 04, 2012, 11:42:48 PM
Headline news on RTE tonight.He now confusingly says that he's neither a politician nor does he understand the ins and outs of the case,but merely went to Ballyconnell because he was asked and he's a neighbour of the Quinns.Despite this shallow argument displaying an intellect below that of Father Dougal Maguire,is this an attempt to distance himself or has he got a belt from the crozier?

Just a point, when you're in a glasshouse, you shouldnt throw stones about other peoples intellects. Whats confusing about Brian Darcy saying hes not a politician, nor does he understand the ins and outs of the case? How is it a 'shallow' argument? Do you have any notion of what you are 'confusingly' on about? How also is it an attempt to distance himself? Did he say he wasnt actually there or something?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 05, 2012, 10:03:20 AM
Poetic licence, but only mild, on my part, I believe the actual quote was theres a few boys on here who dont seem to have got their heads round this yet.

I read what you said - the point I'm making is that its what you didnt say that was important - the impression you were attempting to give was that quinn had accepted everything levelled at him, agreed with the sanctions against him, and then just showed blatant contempt for the court with no (whether correct or incorrect) excuse or believed extenuating circumstances for doing so.

You didnt clarify the contempt and what it related to until you were called on it.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: Gaffer on August 05, 2012, 12:59:21 PM
Does the Reverend speak on behalf of all his flock who break the law 'round Fermanagh???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 05, 2012, 03:42:44 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 04, 2012, 10:41:40 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 07:57:23 PM
Well there you go. He believes there is no personal gaurantee, the contempt charge stems from this.

So your post earlier was missing a vital piece of information - you attempted to portray the whole affair as though Quinn agreed with everything that had happened to him, and accepted it, including the contempt, and that 'some lads' were pretty stupid not to have realised this.

But as you've kindly pointed out, he actually didnt really agree with everything, did he?

Perhaps if you read what I said.  I said he accepted that he gambled and lost the Quinn group and that he accepted the Regulators were correct in their taking over Quinn Insurance.

I said he admitted the contempt. I did not say he accepted it, the upcoming court case comes from his not accepting that the loans were personal and as you note I have already stated this so I am not sure what vital piece of information I was missing.

The contempt comes from his acting in defiance of a ruling by the courts.

Could you also point out where I said some lads were pretty stupid?

Leo, SQ never admitted the regulator was right in taking over QIL. He said he agreed with the regulator for fining him and forcing him to stand down from QIL. He has never agreed with the regulators decision and method to taking over QIL.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: T Fearon on August 05, 2012, 08:17:02 PM
Well if I was asked to lend my support to a campaign,I'd take the trouble to ascertain the ins and outs and then make a decision.It is plain that D'Arcy didn't bother and is now saying in the papers today in effect the Quinns did terrible things,but sure they're neighbours of mine so I'll stand by them.By that logic he should also be defending the late Brendan Smyth.

Of course you're right Gaffer.D'Arcy should be supporting the Quinns by telling them to do the decent and moral thing i.e. Pay their dues to the Irish nation,and prove that they are at least patriotic if not Christian.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 05, 2012, 08:19:18 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 05, 2012, 08:17:02 PM
Well if I was asked to lend my support to a campaign,I'd take the trouble to ascertain the ins and outs and then make a decision.It is plain that D'Arcy didn't bother and is now saying in the papers today in effect the Quinns did terrible things,but sure they're neighbours of mine so I'll stand by them.By that logic he should also be defending the late Brendan Smyth.

Of course you're right Gaffer.D'Arcy should be supporting the Quinns by telling them to do the decent and moral thing i.e. Pay their dues to the Irish nation,and prove that they are at least patriotic if not Christian.
As it is D'Arcy I would say the draw of the cameras was all the motivation he needed.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: T Fearon on August 05, 2012, 08:22:35 PM
Correct.He also said that he didn't visit the jailed one,as it would have turned into a sideshow! Almost comparing himself to the late Mo Mowlam visiting the paramilitary prisoners in the Maze.He probably thinks the media follows his every move? ::)
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: haranguerer on August 05, 2012, 08:51:11 PM
Well you're starting threads on msg boards about him...
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: Gaffer on August 05, 2012, 09:17:23 PM
Is being a curate in a parish not a full time job?

How does he fit in his priestly duties with all this media stuff he does as well as attending Irish celebrity bashes and so on....
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: T Fearon on August 05, 2012, 09:43:51 PM
He was censured by the Vatican a while back but made it clear he would not be silenced.p***k of the highest (Holy) Orders! If it was one of his poorer neighbours who was about to be thrown onto the street for mortage arrears,I'd bet he'd be nowhere to be seen.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: haranguerer on August 05, 2012, 09:50:32 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 05, 2012, 09:43:51 PM
He was censured by the Vatican a while back but made it clear he would not be silenced.p***k of the highest (Holy) Orders! If it was one of his poorer neighbours who was about to be thrown onto the street for mortage arrears,I'd bet he'd be nowhere to be seen.

f**k, I dont know many poorer than SQ now!!
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: T Fearon on August 05, 2012, 09:57:05 PM
Poor? Hiding millions worth of assets,enjoying the income these assets are earning,and each member of the family allocated thousands in living allowances every month? Poor? Dont make me laugh.
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: rrhf on August 05, 2012, 11:35:31 PM
Just imagine that you had brains to burn tony what would you do. Have a barbie?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gaaboard on August 05, 2012, 11:50:22 PM
Topic merged.
No need to start a new one on a subject that already had a very active discussion going.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 06, 2012, 12:12:55 AM
Quote from: gaaboard on August 05, 2012, 11:50:22 PM
Topic merged.
No need to start a new one on a subject that already had a very active discussion going.
Novel. Hardy was wondering if you could merge all the soccer threads.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 06, 2012, 08:57:51 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 05, 2012, 03:42:44 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 04, 2012, 10:41:40 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 07:57:23 PM
Well there you go. He believes there is no personal gaurantee, the contempt charge stems from this.

So your post earlier was missing a vital piece of information - you attempted to portray the whole affair as though Quinn agreed with everything that had happened to him, and accepted it, including the contempt, and that 'some lads' were pretty stupid not to have realised this.

But as you've kindly pointed out, he actually didnt really agree with everything, did he?

Perhaps if you read what I said.  I said he accepted that he gambled and lost the Quinn group and that he accepted the Regulators were correct in their taking over Quinn Insurance.

I said he admitted the contempt. I did not say he accepted it, the upcoming court case comes from his not accepting that the loans were personal and as you note I have already stated this so I am not sure what vital piece of information I was missing.

The contempt comes from his acting in defiance of a ruling by the courts.

Could you also point out where I said some lads were pretty stupid?

Leo, SQ never admitted the regulator was right in taking over QIL. He said he agreed with the regulator for fining him and forcing him to stand down from QIL. He has never agreed with the regulators decision and method to taking over QIL.

Maybe I am picking this up wrong. SQ was ousted from QIL because he was using QIL reserves to support other aspects of the business which would have been a legitimate tactic within the Quinn Group but is against the rules for the Insurance Industry. As you say he agreed with this decision.

Are Anglo claiming that the loans were against QIL as well as the Quinn Group and the Quinn family while SQ is disputing that the loans were against QIL (and the family)  or is there another element to this I am missing?
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: Maguire01 on August 06, 2012, 09:09:30 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 05, 2012, 09:50:32 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 05, 2012, 09:43:51 PM
He was censured by the Vatican a while back but made it clear he would not be silenced.p***k of the highest (Holy) Orders! If it was one of his poorer neighbours who was about to be thrown onto the street for mortage arrears,I'd bet he'd be nowhere to be seen.

f**k, I dont know many poorer than SQ now!!
Are you having a laugh?!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 06, 2012, 09:21:45 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 05, 2012, 10:03:20 AM
Poetic licence, but only mild, on my part, I believe the actual quote was theres a few boys on here who dont seem to have got their heads round this yet.

I read what you said - the point I'm making is that its what you didnt say that was important - the impression you were attempting to give was that quinn had accepted everything levelled at him, agreed with the sanctions against him, and then just showed blatant contempt for the court with no (whether correct or incorrect) excuse or believed extenuating circumstances for doing so.

You didnt clarify the contempt and what it related to until you were called on it.

I have been trying to be clear and unambiguous throughout this, trying to lay out facts without the hyperbole. There are a lot of grey areas, both legal and moral in this whole sorry mess. My comment was on boys who were commenting and taking sides based on headlines or who was at the rally, though as SS has pointed out I have a few gaps in my knowledge on the story.

I would have had a lot of sympathy for SQ. Whilst not condoning his gamble on Anglo I don't believe he would have made the gamble if the books were clean. However it is the actions in contempt of court which would make me look much less sympathetically towards his plight. As a few have noted on here any attempt to move the assets prior to the injunction could be argued as fair game but not once the courts had ruled.

That I would have to clarify what the contempt charge was related to would maybe support my belief there are people arguing without a knowledge of the issues.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 06, 2012, 11:19:41 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 06, 2012, 08:57:51 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 05, 2012, 03:42:44 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on August 04, 2012, 10:41:40 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 04, 2012, 07:57:23 PM
Well there you go. He believes there is no personal gaurantee, the contempt charge stems from this.

So your post earlier was missing a vital piece of information - you attempted to portray the whole affair as though Quinn agreed with everything that had happened to him, and accepted it, including the contempt, and that 'some lads' were pretty stupid not to have realised this.

But as you've kindly pointed out, he actually didnt really agree with everything, did he?

Perhaps if you read what I said.  I said he accepted that he gambled and lost the Quinn group and that he accepted the Regulators were correct in their taking over Quinn Insurance.

I said he admitted the contempt. I did not say he accepted it, the upcoming court case comes from his not accepting that the loans were personal and as you note I have already stated this so I am not sure what vital piece of information I was missing.

The contempt comes from his acting in defiance of a ruling by the courts.

Could you also point out where I said some lads were pretty stupid?

Leo, SQ never admitted the regulator was right in taking over QIL. He said he agreed with the regulator for fining him and forcing him to stand down from QIL. He has never agreed with the regulators decision and method to taking over QIL.

Maybe I am picking this up wrong. SQ was ousted from QIL because he was using QIL reserves to support other aspects of the business which would have been a legitimate tactic within the Quinn Group but is against the rules for the Insurance Industry. As you say he agreed with this decision.

Are Anglo claiming that the loans were against QIL as well as the Quinn Group and the Quinn family while SQ is disputing that the loans were against QIL (and the family)  or is there another element to this I am missing?

SQ was removed from the QIL for his involvement in transfering money from QIL. He was forced to stand down as chairman and was removed from the board of Directors (And fined). But the company was still maintained in the Quinn family. This was all previous to the April 2010 take over by the regulator.
The Regulator took action when going through the QIL's books and realised that there was cross liabilities over assets held by the Group and assets held by QIL. In fairness these cross liabilities had been in place for a few years and had been missed by QIL's auditors (PWC) aswell. And that was the reason the regulator took action against QIL forcing it into administration.

Actually here's a half decent article that actually outlines most of the information and actually includes the Quinns side to a certain extent ( Tho is far from pro Quinn as you'll see)

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/tom-lyons-death-of-a-company-and-a-desperate-mans-hopes-3189913.html


I'd say there are few who do know the whole picture with regards to what has happened Leo. I know I certainly don't. When the cases are heard next year a few more facts and figures may come out. But to be honest I doubt that we'll ever hear the full story. And even if we do, I don't believe it'll be accepted by both sides leaving the debate to rumble on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 06, 2012, 12:08:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 06, 2012, 11:19:41 AM


SQ was removed from the QIL for his involvement in transfering money from QIL. He was forced to stand down as chairman and was removed from the board of Directors (And fined). But the company was still maintained in the Quinn family. This was all previous to the April 2010 take over by the regulator.
The Regulator took action when going through the QIL's books and realised that there was cross liabilities over assets held by the Group and assets held by QIL. In fairness these cross liabilities had been in place for a few years and had been missed by QIL's auditors (PWC) aswell. And that was the reason the regulator took action against QIL forcing it into administration.

I'd say there are few who do know the whole picture with regards to what has happened Leo. I know I certainly don't. When the cases are heard next year a few more facts and figures may come out. But to be honest I doubt that we'll ever hear the full story. And even if we do, I don't believe it'll be accepted by both sides leaving the debate to rumble on.

Cheers, my take on that would be that Anglo are using some questionable accounting practices to try to drag QIL into the mess so that may be one more grey area SQ has to fight on.
As you say there is a lot more to come out and it may not all come out but boys rushing to judgement without the facts would be my contribution to the Grinds my gears thread.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on August 06, 2012, 06:05:06 PM
I object to this thread merging.Brian D'Arcy was/is worth a thread of his own and the issue was not specifically about his support for Quinn but his media hoorism in general and bringing himself his church and vocation into disrepute by supporting dubious causes/people
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on August 06, 2012, 06:15:21 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 06, 2012, 06:05:06 PM
I object to this thread merging.Brian D'Arcy was/is worth a thread of his own and the issue was not specifically about his support for Quinn but his media hoorism in general and bringing himself his church and vocation into disrepute by supporting dubious causes/people

Time's a great healer. See how you feel about it in a few weeks. In the meantime, be strong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on August 06, 2012, 09:22:29 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 06, 2012, 06:05:06 PM
I object to this thread merging.Brian D'Arcy was/is worth a thread of his own and the issue was not specifically about his support for Quinn but his media hoorism in general and bringing himself his church and vocation into disrepute by supporting dubious causes/people

Jesus Christ, there was worse lads at bringing his "vocation into disrepute".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on August 07, 2012, 08:39:59 AM
Gene Kerrigan: Quinn is no victim of a 'Dub conspiracy'
The rule of law must prevail over the tribal and primitive call to 'stand by our own', writes Gene Kerrigan

Sunday August 05 2012
OCCASIONALLY, while shopping in a supermarket or a department store, you might see a shoplifter being caught, held and taken away. It's never a pretty sight and one memory stands out. It was an incident in a Dublin city centre store.

I know shoplifting costs the retail trade big money. I know we're each responsible for our own actions. I know a policy of always prosecuting shoplifters may act as a deterrent. And I know the glib cliches about not doing the crime if you can't do the time.

But this was awful. A young woman screaming, pleading, begging to be released, promising, swearing never to do it again.

And, yes, I know all shoplifters aren't in dire need. Not all of them are stealing to feed their families. I know there are gangs who specialise in shoplifting. I know that someone caught may cynically shriek and wail in hope of being let go.

But that's not what this was. This was the naked shame and fear of a woman barely out of her teens. This was infinite regret.

This was knowing in this overwhelming moment how this foolish act would ripple through her life, through her family, her friends, her neighbours, her classmates or workmates. This was a young woman realising that being caught in this one act might forever change her relationship with all of those. To all who knew her, it would cast a veil of dishonour over everything else she was.

She was taken away, to await the gardai and all that followed. The rest of us went about our business.

This distressing scene came to mind last week as the nation was subjected to another kind of shrieking and wailing.

Sean Quinn's friends and neighbours can't be faulted for their loyalty. It's laudable to go to such a family and say: "Sorry for your trouble. Is there anything I can do?" It's right to say: "Yes, three members of this family have been judged on serious evidence to have broken serious laws.

"But this is not all they are. And we will help them through this hour of need, because that's the kind of people we are. And we know Sean Quinn to be more than a lawbreaker."

But that's not what the Quinn supporters in Ballyconnell said last week. And that is not what Quinn's advocates in the media are saying.

"We stand by our own." That's what they say.

Whatever they did, we stand by our own. And by reason of being good people, our people, whatever they're accused of, there must be a conspiracy against them. They must be victims of those despicable people beyond up in Dublin, bad cess to them.

That is not sympathy for someone in trouble. That is solidarity with someone caught doing wrong.

That is what Fianna Fail said when Charlie Haughey was caught lying and stealing. We stand by our own.

It's what Fianna Fail said when big chunks of money turned up in Bertie Ahern's pockets.

It's what the hierarchy of the Catholic Church said when they knew that people under their jurisdiction were fondling, punching or raping children. We stand by our own.

These were not expressions of sympathy, they were defiant displays of solidarity, with a concomitant display of disrespect for the victims.

Three years ago, when a Listowel man was found guilty of sexual assault, his neighbours made a display of solidarity in the courtroom, in front of the victim (who got a rough time from some).

"What about the victim?" a journalist asked one of the man's supporters.

Came the reply: "I didn't know her."

Over the past week, Sean Quinn and his brother Peter and a range of others have launched an assault on the victims of the Quinn family's actions -- the rest of us.

This has been accompanied by serious accusations against identifiable members of the judiciary, against the people now running Anglo Irish Bank and against the media.

Sorry, that should be "the Dublin media".

Because, you see, living above here in Dublin, in our mansions, we have a fierce hatred of all who live outside the Pale, in their thatched cottages. We make up stuff about folk with country accents, because that's just the kind of gobshites we are.

We're not genuinely Irish, you know. We're West Brit Free Staters, gombeens, sleeveens, slaters and twisters who burn with envy and revulsion.

And you can't believe a word out of anyone about Sean Quinn, unless they were born within five miles of his home and/or worked five years in his factory.

It's pathetic. We live in a little sliver of a country on the edge of Europe. Throw a stick out of any Dublin window and the odds are you'll hit someone from Kerry, Mayo or Meath. And if you're not related to them, you've probably had drinks, a fight or sexual relations with their cousin.

Yet, some seek to divide us by geography, by place of birth, by public sector versus private, by gender, by any mechanism that mobilises group loyalty to defeat fairness.

Sean Quinn continues to make very serious allegations. He states blatantly that the asset-stripping his family did was done before court orders were issued.

I spent some time last week plodding through legal judgements relating to the Quinn scandal. In particular, re-reading Judge Elizabeth Dunne's finding of contempt of court.

Did the judge get it wrong? Is she part of some conspiracy to do down the Quinns, corrupted, perhaps, by the Anglo people or Matthew Elderfield?

That's the implication of the Quinn bullshit that is being ladled over us.

Read the judgement. It's online. It's not John Banville, admittedly, but it has great characters and a staggering plot. Read about Mr Gurniak and Ms Puga, about Galfis and Finansstroy.

Read about documents supposedly signed in April 2011 -- but which the judge believes were signed two months later. The events are complex, bewildering in places, but the judgement seems to me to be coherent and convincing.

This is not about a longing to see anyone banged up. If that's the penalty, so be it. What matters is that the law of the land is enforced.

And this isn't just about the Quinns. We all are being asset-stripped to protect the interests of careless, greedy people.

Four years after all this began, I'm tired of being lectured on what wonderful chaps they all are.

We've seen the Quinns at work, a once powerful family taking on the legitimacy of the courts.

We've seen Sean Quinn blustering, waving aside inconvenient facts. To answer cold, hard evidence, we have heated arrogance. Don't look at what we did. Look at who we are.

Tell that to the kid who is screaming for mercy when she has been caught with a pair of jeans stuffed up her jumper.

The old line from The Outlaw Josey Wales comes to mind.

"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on August 07, 2012, 09:38:53 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 06, 2012, 06:05:06 PM
I object to this thread merging.Brian D'Arcy was/is worth a thread of his own and the issue was not specifically about his support for Quinn but his media hoorism in general and bringing himself his church and vocation into disrepute by supporting dubious causes/people
Yes, he has really risked that unblemished reputation!
Title: Re: Father Brian Trendy,sorry,D'Arcy distancing himself from Quinns?
Post by: AQMP on August 07, 2012, 10:01:43 AM
Quote from: Gaffer on August 05, 2012, 09:17:23 PM
Is being a curate in a parish not a full time job?

How does he fit in his priestly duties with all this media stuff he does as well as attending Irish celebrity bashes and so on....

Small point but he doesn't work in a parish.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Gaffer on August 07, 2012, 10:03:34 AM
Ok.  What is his day to day role as a priest ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on August 07, 2012, 10:05:58 AM
Quote from: Gaffer on August 07, 2012, 10:03:34 AM
Ok.  What is his day to day role as a priest ?

He is the Rector of the Passionist Monastery at the Graan near Enniskillen.  These days I think there are only 2 priests left there, so after doing the breakfast dishes he'd have a bit of spare time right enough!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 11:02:18 AM
http://foolscrow.wordpress.com/

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of menliving together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."      Frederic Bastiat – (1801-1850) in Economic Sophisms


Regular visitors to this site will doubtlessly be aware that the wholescale looting of the lifetime assets of Sean Quinn is a carefully designed scheme concocted by an unholy alliance of criminal banksters, venal politicians, and an unprincipled judiciary. Frederic Bastiat, French political economist, predicted such systematic villainy some 170 years ago.

Today, Irish people follow the public destruction of the Quinn family with voyeuristic fascination. Many are sympathetic to the Quinns; but many more are indifferent, and a few are downright hostile. Mostly they see the plight of the Quinns, whether deserved or undeserved, as something that does not concern them.

But concern them it certainly does. The people of Ireland should well heed the words of the poet John Donne, "Send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee." Today, we can clearly observe the banksters' bell tolling for the ruin of the Quinn family. But heed well the ringing bell, dear people of Ireland, for its debt knell tolls for you too. Many of you seem unaware of it, but the vampire banks have already opened your veins and are feasting on your blood.


What is being done to the Quinns is being done every week to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of sovereign Irish men and women. Family homes and businesses are being unlawfully seized by the banksters every day with the collusion of the courts and sometimes the Gardaí. The mass media are not only shamelessly silent about this gross injustice but they deliberately produce nasty and biased pieces against the Quinns and all others who dare oppose a corrupt system; our newspapers, radio, and TV stations have lost all journalistic integrity. Our colleges and universities are woefully inept, employing a policy of obfuscation rather than enlightenment. The Taoiseach and government ministers merely shrug their shoulders and say, "It's the global recession. Nothing we can do about it."


"Mmm. I wonder what 'subornation' means."

But there are lots our politicians could do about it – if they weren't so ill-informed, dishonest, or spineless. They could begin to change our fortunes overnight and put in train a revolutionary plan of action that would in short time take us to full employment, widespread abundance, and the absence of national debt. This is not rhetoric. It can be done, simply and speedily. We have written in detail about this in other articles on this site.

Global Banking Fraud

It's no secret to those who are politically awakened that the current financial chaos was deliberately planned and executed. Billions upon billions of dollars/euros/pounds were skilfully finessed from the pockets of the middle and working classes into the already overflowing coffers of a small cadre of international banksters. It's all about control and the centralization of power into fewer and fewer hands.

The Quinns and each and every one of us who have ever taken out a bank 'loan' or mortgage are the victims of a fraud so huge and so audacious that, to borrow a phrase from economist J.K. Galbraith, the mind is repelled. This enormous swindle is so utterly flagrant and 'hidden' in plain sight that we just can't, or won't, see it. As Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, "The bigger the lie, the more inclined people will be to believe it."

And so it is today that many lies and half-truths and volumes of disinformation are skilfully spread by the vassals of the banksters to exert control over us. Key areas of deception include: the global fraud of central banking, pharmaceuticals and the Germ Theory, global warming, the myth of peak oil, the suppression of natural health protocols and supplements, the suppression of revolutionary free energy technology, genetically modified foods, etc.

The entire system of global finance, banking, taxation, politics, academia, media, the courts, regulatory bodies, and so on, have been carefully constructed and put into place over a period of 8 or more generations by the banksters for the banksters. A global Money Power controls everything, without exception. We have been told this explicitly by world leaders over the past 200 years, most recently by Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy, with the latter being murdered for attempting to stand up to these homicidal thugs.


Predatory Bank

The Big Cheese of all the banksters, Mayer Amschel Rothschild, said in 1838: "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws".

This was no idle boast. By the mid-1850s, it was estimated that the Rothschilds owned half of Europe. How much of the world does the House of Rothschild own now? And how much is owned by the remaining handful of allied bankster dynasties?

As stated, the mainstream media is a major tool of the banksters by whose contrivances they control public opinion. And it works superbly. The gullibility of the populace must be a source of great joy to the banksters. The people are so believing of what they are told in the media that, in the words of a farmer I know, they "would swallow bananas sideways." Or, if we were to borrow a well-known biblical term, the Irish public would strain at a gnat, but swallow a camel.

The Mainstream Media Sell-Out


The world's mainstream media is owned today by a mere six monolithic corporations; just 30 years ago the mass media was owned by scores of independent corporations. With mergers and acquisitions the international banksters now have gained dominance over global TV, film, radio, radio, newspapers, and they're doing their damnedest to take charge of the internet too. The banksters control everything that most of the world sees, reads, or hears. This, indeed, is awesome power. It is more than awesome – it is horrifying!

The Irish mainstream media, as a lynchpin of the bankster elite, continuously portrays Sean Quinn as a bogey man, the man who cheated Irish taxpayers out of billions of euro. Quinn has been castigated as one of the major culprits of Ireland's economic suffering. The IBRC (formerly the Anglo Irish Bank) and the Government have cynically sidestepped their own guilt and heaped odium on Quinn and his family.

But none of their jejune propaganda stands up to scrutiny.

Admittedly, Sean Quinn made a serious error of judgement by investing in Anglo Irish Bank by use of a financial weapon of mass destruction known as Contract For Difference (CFD). That miscalculation led to grave problems for himself and his family. However, looking at it dispassionately, there is a very strong case that he would have paid off all his so-called debts to Anglo if he had been left alone to run his money-making Quinn Group. But the greed and avarice of special interests combined with Machiavellian politics conspired against him.

Government Treachery

Sean Quinn's difficulties with Anglo Irish Bank originated as a private affair. Sean Quinn, a private individual, entered into an arrangement with Anglo Irish Bank, a private corporation, using his own assets for collateral, private companies trading at considerable profit. With annual profits of some half a billion euro, Quinn could have effected a full pay-off to Anglo within an agreeable time frame. In reality, it was a totally private affair.

It all might have – and should have – ended there, to everyone's satisfaction.

However, in an incredible act of unprecedented treason, the Irish government of the day under Cowen and Lenihan, when faced with a systemic banking implosion, decided to take the huge private gambling debt of banking fraudsters and transfer it to the unsuspecting Irish public. The Irish people and their children and their grandchildren would now have to pay for the criminal excesses of the banksters, not one of whom was ever reprimanded in four years for their illicit behaviour and who continued to draw massive bonuses as a reward for their obscene fraud.

(Just a week ago, three former Anglo Irish banksters were arrested and questioned about fraud. It remains to be seen whether this is a dog & pony show designed to appease the people or whether the Office of Corporate Enforcement means serious business.)


Seanie Fitzpatrick Arrested

Among the billions of euro treacherously landed on the backs of the Irish people was the 2.8 billion euro allegedly owed by the Quinn family. With a stroke of a pen, this private debt to a private bank suddenly became the responsibility of the Irish people, courtesy of Cowen and Lenihan. Were the Irish people consulted about this? No. Neither was Sean Quinn. As Mr. Quinn said himself, "We never borrowed a penny from the taxpayer."

But then the bank, through a receiver, unlawfully seized Sean Quinn's companies on both sides of the border in a military style operation after they had tricked him into travelling to Dublin. The receivers pay themselves £1,000 an hour to run businesses in which they have little experience, if any at all. Other predators who have joined the feast include solicitors, accountants, actuaries, financiers, PR men, security personnel, and other 'advisors'. They will soon strip the carcass of its flesh and jeopardize the jobs of thousands of employees.


Bank Fraud – A Global Scam

So, to re-state the main point in the first paragraph, the wholescale looting of the assets of the Quinns is a deliberate criminal scheme to enrich the banksters. In their crime, the banksters are aided and abetted by the pillars of state – executive, legislature, judiciary, and media.

As mentioned earlier, Frederic Bastiat, in the 1840s, forecast the descent of governments and the courts into an ethos of corruption and collusion with thieves. One has only to recall a few names like Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, Michael Lowry, Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern, and a plethora of tribunals over the last 20 or 30 years to understand what Bastiat foresaw. And these are just the shenanigans we know about. Our entire system of 'democracy' is rotten to the core, not just in Ireland but globally too.

Get on Google or your favourite search engine and you'll see that there are millions of mortgages in the U.S.A. in limbo because of unprecedented bank fraud in the securitization of loans. You'll see that the courts there are chock-a-block with tens of thousands of homeowners and business owners suing their banks for fraud. You'll even see YouTube clips from mainstream television showing how thousands of young people, the 'Burger King' set, have admitted forging the signatures of bank presidents, lawyers, notaries, and borrowers on bank documents to help the banks fraudulently foreclose on hundreds of thousands – maybe millions – of homes and businesses.

The system in the U.S.A. is about to implode under the weight of criminality by the banks, as it will worldwide. And implode it should, for it is nothing but a diabolical scheme to impoverish the people and grossly enrich a small gang of international banksters. Yet the banksters and their lobbyists are making strenuous efforts to 'persuade' the Federal Government and the individual States to pass laws which will retroactively legalize their  innumerable crimes in return for agreed fines.



Since the BNP Paribas affair in 2007, we have had banking scandal after scandal after scandal and now we have the Libor Scandal. This is COLOSSAL. It involves the theft of perhaps a thousand trillion dollars by the manipulation of interest rates and bond prices by the banks, with the knowledge and cooperation of central banks, including the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England. The money stolen matches something like the entire GDP of the world 15 to 20 times over! In over four years of breathtaking banking frauds we've never seen anything like this before.

Writer Stephen Lendman refers to the Libor Scandal as a "Cesspool of Financial Fraud" and "Unprecedented Government Sanctioned Crime." Lendman goes on to say, "All major banks commit grand theft. It's standard practice. Corrupt politicians turn a blind eye. So do regulators. Western banking is rife with fraud...

"The system is too corrupt to fix. At issue is clearing it out and replacing it with an entirely new paradigm.

"Central bankers and complicit politicians bear full responsibility for what's happening. They're heading economies for a worse disaster than the Great Depression."



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 11:03:37 AM

http://foolscrow.wordpress.com/

Now, given that the global banking system is a gigantic mafia enterprise, the big question is, did Anglo Irish Bank loan the Quinns any "money" in the first place? That is, did they hand over pre-existing cash, otherwise known as money of exchange, or did they come across with valuable commodities like bars of gold or silver? The answer is a resounding No!

The Scams In Action

Like banks all over the world, Anglo did not lend the Quinns its own assets such as depositors' funds or shareholders' funds. Banks don't lend their own money. They merely make an entry on their computers and, hey presto!, the "money" is there. It's called money of account. It is conjured out of thin air. It is totally new 'money' and, in the Anglo case, didn't exist until Sean Quinn created it himself with his signature on a promissory note.

The banks create loans to governments, businesses, and to individuals in the same manner. It is how they artfully add to our national debt. It is how they manufacture your mortgage out of nothing. Banking is a massive counterfeiting operation. There is no other way to describe it. If you or I tried this we would end up in jail.

Irving Fisher, distinguished U.S. Professor of Economics, said in 100 Percent Money (1935):

"Thus, our national circulating medium is now at the mercy of loan transactions of banks, which lend, not money, but promises to supply money they do not possess."

Fisher's observation is brilliant and succinct and just as pertinent today as it was 77 years ago.

It is only in the last few years, with a great global awakening stirring peoples across the planet, that we are fast becoming aware of the great fraud of banking. We still have much to uncover but below is a brief summary of some of the banksters' secrets and scams we have unearthed so far.

Until recently, most people believed – and many still do – that banks have a limited but substantial amount of money in their vaults with which to make loans. They believe this money is in the form of hard cash, represented perhaps by shareholders' funds or depositors' funds. Neither is true, but this is what the banks want you to believe. It is a major deception.

Economists know this banking fable is not true. They know well that banks don't lend shareholders' or depositors' funds. At economic colleges they are taught that money is created through the Multiplier Effect, or Fractional Reserve Banking (FRB) if you will. Economic students are taught that central banks or the Bank for International Settlements set reserve ratios, that commercial banks must have a certain amount of money on deposit with their central bank and that they can loan out a certain multiple of that. For example, they are told that if a commercial bank has €100 million of reserves with their central bank and the reserve ratio is, say, 10%, then that bank may loan out a thousand million (a billion) euro to borrowers.

Another way this works, according to economics lecturers, is that if a customer deposits €1,000 in their bank, then the bank may hold a minimum of 10% (€100) in reserve and loan out €900 to a new borrower. And the original depositor still has access to his €1,000. The new loan of €900 could create newer deposits of which 90% is loaned out each time so that the original €1,000 deposit accumulates (or multiplies) allowing the bank(s) to loan out and charge interest on €10,000 it never had.

This is a clever deception on the people but, in reality, it is not the whole truth either.

Many countries, including the U.K., do not have fixed reserve ratios. In 2008, some U.K. banks were found to have only reserves of £1.25 for every £100 loaned. Still, so-called economic experts insist that loans are made or multiplied from a fixed ratio of customer deposits and that banks can't make loans until they receive deposits from savers.

In fact the complete opposite is true, as attested by Alan Holmes (Senior VP, Federal Reserve, NY), Distayat & Bori (Bank for International Settlements), and Vitor Constancio (VP of the European Central Bank), among others. Banks make loans by creating entries on their computers and look for deposits later. Furthermore, the new loans they create then become deposits. So, in spite of what the economic textbooks say, banks do not need any reserves to create loans.

In short, banks create new money by expanding their balance sheets. We don't have the space here to go into all of this in detail but, basically, banks create new money whenever they extend credit, buy existing assets, or make payments on their own account. This expansion of their assets is only minimally linked to the amount of reserves they hold at the central bank.

All commercial banks have accounts with their nation's central bank. At the end of each business day all inter-bank accounts must be settled. For instance, if Bank of Ireland (BoI) writes loan cheques totalling €850,000 which their clients use to pay creditors (car dealers, travel agent. etc.) who bank at, say, Allied Irish Bank (AIB), then BoI will owe AIB €850,000. This must be paid in cash or in central bank reserves, which amounts to 'electronic cash'. Therefore, you would expect that BoI needs to have a minimum of €850,000 in its Central Bank account.

And if BoI write other loans amounting to €10 million that end up being deposited in other Irish banks (Ulster Bank, Perm TSB, NIB), then you'd also expect that BoI needs to have at least €10,850,000 in central bank money to meet the loans they've written.

But, going back to the original amount of €850,000 that BoI owes AIB, what if AIB itself wrote loans of €825,000 that ended up as deposits with BoI? AIB now owes BoI €825,000. After the Central Bank of Ireland does the credit and debit calculations between the two banks, all that BoI actually owes AIB is €25,000 in central bank money. (Subtract €825,000 from €850,000.) The Central Bank duly debits BoI in the amount of €25,000 and credits AIB's account with the same amount. No more money than that need change hands.

And what if the other three banks together write loans amounting to €9,950,000 that end up as deposits with BoI? When all the calculations are done, BoI will only owe €50,000 in total to the three of them. (Subtract €9,950,000 from €10,000,000.) It would mean that on this particular day's trading, BoI made 'loans' and charged interest on €10,850,000 while only needing reserves of €75,000 in central bank money. "A nice little earner," as Del Boy would say.

Of course, every day may fluctuate up or down but you have to take your hat off to the genius of these master criminals. Nonetheless, to pluck money out of the air and loan it at interest is a grievous crime of usury. For hundreds of years, moneylenders were put to death by both Church and State for the crime of usury. Today, the moneylenders live in opulence at the apex of society, are courted and feted by Church and State, and have all the institutions of government working to serve and protect their interests.

Look at the figures from the Bank of England for 2006 which show that the central bank reserves of U.K. banks amounted to £20 billion, yet these same banks conducted £704 billion in daily transactions! Would you call that usury? Charging interest on £684 billion of loans the banks didn't have?

What if a bank didn't have enough central bank reserves to meet its daily obligations? Usually, they could borrow from another bank who had a reserve surplus or from pension funds or other large investors or they might borrow from the Central Bank itself.

This scam works beautifully as long as all the banks are expanding their balance sheets at more or less the same steady rate. The key is that they all work together. Daily reserve settlements among them will only be minimal. But if one bank gets too greedy and expands its balance sheet (creates loans out of thin air) at a faster rate than the others it won't have enough reserves at the central bank to meet the difference between the outgoing loans it has written and deposits coming in from other banks.

That's what happened to Northern Rock (NR). It expanded its balance sheet more rapidly than the other banks, creating huge outflows of central bank reserves. It soon found itself unable to settle its accounts with the other banks. For various reasons no other banks or investors would lend to NR. The Bank of England allowed it to collapse and it was nationalized soon afterwards. All the shareholders of Northern Rock lost every penny of their investments.

The danger is that when one bank overstretches itself and fails, it could bring down the others, and then the whole rotten edifice would come tumbling down. Perhaps this is what happened to Anglo Irish Bank.

Before we wrap up, there is another important bank deception that needs to be mentioned.

When a 'borrower' signs a promissory note to the bank he thinks the bank will keep it secure in a vault and trot it out if he defaults on the loan. But the 'borrower' is not told that a promissory note is a negotiable instrument and that the bank can lodge it as an asset of the bank or convert it to cash for its own use. It stamps the note with something like Pay To The Order Of ABC Bank, Without Recourse and the bank then has the full cash amount of the loan, an unwitting gift from you.

We have this information from the Chicago Federal Reserve Bank who, in their publication of the 1960s and 1990s, Modern Money Mechanics, tell us on page 6 that they accept promissory notes in exchange for credits to the borrower's transaction account. The key word is "exchange". They merely swap credit with you. They don't loan you anything. As strange as it sounds, you provide the funds for your own loan.

This information has been covered in other articles on this site and is well worth exploring. You can also use Google to find additional information.


Time For Action

It should now be apparent to most readers that Sean Quinn and his family were massively defrauded by Anglo Irish Bank and it should also be self-evident that every Irish man or woman who has, or ever had, a bank loan, credit card loan, or mortgage has been defrauded in the very same way.

We've had two High Court justices attack the Quinns with words and phrases like "lack of openness", "lack of cooperation", "dishonest", "sharp practice", "devious", and so on. Might not these terms be applied to the banks themselves, a hundred thousand fold?

Do not indulge in bad-mouthing the Quinns. We are all in the same boat. What is being done to them is, and will, be done to you.

Brothers and sisters, this is very serious. This is War! It is a war for your money, your freedom, and your future!

Join the Revolution! Fight for yourselves and for your children and for the yet unborn generations of Ireland.

I'm not talking about a violent revolution but a bloodless revolution, a revolution of the mind. Peaceful action and passive resistance is more powerful than the gun.

How can you fight?

You must inform yourself and inform others about the fraud of the banksters. Exchange information with all your family, friends, and social circle. Have discussions and debates. Give talks. Attend talks.

If you have loans or mortgages or credit card debt, challenge the banksters to prove they actually loaned you any "money". Thousands upon thousands of Irish men and women are presently challenging the banks and the system is becoming choked up. Ask them for proof and demand answers. They don't have the proof and they don't know what to do, except to threaten and bully and bluster. (You'll find more information on how to challenge the banks on this site or on the Internet.)

Write to your local representatives. Demand that they do something. Demand that they inform themselves about the great banking scam and have it debated in the Dáil. If they don't, throw them out of office. Put forward people of integrity who are knowledgeable and fearless.

Do something. Act now!

Some of the pessimists among you will say, "But how can we fight the State? We will need a huge majority!"

No, we won't. As Samuel Adams once said, "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." Adams should know – after all, wasn't he a leader of a small minority of brave activists who defeated the mighty British Empire in the American Revolution?

The Rising


...nor Angela Merkel nor Brussels, nor the City of London...

And remember our own Rising of 1916. When the rebels were captured after a week of fighting, the Irish people cursed them and pelted them with rotten eggs. But, the mood soon changed, changed utterly. And so our Republic came into being. As Victor Hugo says, "You cannot resist an idea whose time has come."

Well, that time has now come. There are certain forces who are trying to undermine our Great Republic and take away our liberties and our sovereign rights.

WE WILL NOT ALLOW THAT!!

For the second time in 100 years, the Irish people will Rise up against those who would oppress them.

Let the Rising begin!

"The great appear great because we are on our knees.

Let us rise." 'Big' Jim Larkin (1876-1947)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 11:13:04 AM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 11:03:37 AM
Let us rise." 'Big' Jim Larkin (1876-1947)

Invoking Jim Larkin in defence of Seán Quinn is a sick joke
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thebigfella on August 07, 2012, 11:43:30 AM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 11:02:18 AM
http://foolscrow.wordpress.com/

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of menliving together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."      Frederic Bastiat – (1801-1850) in Economic Sophisms


Regular visitors to this site will doubtlessly be aware that the wholescale looting of the lifetime assets of Sean Quinn is a carefully designed scheme concocted by an unholy alliance of criminal banksters, venal politicians, and an unprincipled judiciary. Frederic Bastiat, French political economist, predicted such systematic villainy some 170 years ago.

Today, Irish people follow the public destruction of the Quinn family with voyeuristic fascination. Many are sympathetic to the Quinns; but many more are indifferent, and a few are downright hostile. Mostly they see the plight of the Quinns, whether deserved or undeserved, as something that does not concern them.

But concern them it certainly does. The people of Ireland should well heed the words of the poet John Donne, "Send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee." Today, we can clearly observe the banksters' bell tolling for the ruin of the Quinn family. But heed well the ringing bell, dear people of Ireland, for its debt knell tolls for you too. Many of you seem unaware of it, but the vampire banks have already opened your veins and are feasting on your blood.


What is being done to the Quinns is being done every week to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of sovereign Irish men and women. Family homes and businesses are being unlawfully seized by the banksters every day with the collusion of the courts and sometimes the Gardaí. The mass media are not only shamelessly silent about this gross injustice but they deliberately produce nasty and biased pieces against the Quinns and all others who dare oppose a corrupt system; our newspapers, radio, and TV stations have lost all journalistic integrity. Our colleges and universities are woefully inept, employing a policy of obfuscation rather than enlightenment. The Taoiseach and government ministers merely shrug their shoulders and say, "It's the global recession. Nothing we can do about it."


"Mmm. I wonder what 'subornation' means."

But there are lots our politicians could do about it – if they weren't so ill-informed, dishonest, or spineless. They could begin to change our fortunes overnight and put in train a revolutionary plan of action that would in short time take us to full employment, widespread abundance, and the absence of national debt. This is not rhetoric. It can be done, simply and speedily. We have written in detail about this in other articles on this site.

Global Banking Fraud

It's no secret to those who are politically awakened that the current financial chaos was deliberately planned and executed. Billions upon billions of dollars/euros/pounds were skilfully finessed from the pockets of the middle and working classes into the already overflowing coffers of a small cadre of international banksters. It's all about control and the centralization of power into fewer and fewer hands.

The Quinns and each and every one of us who have ever taken out a bank 'loan' or mortgage are the victims of a fraud so huge and so audacious that, to borrow a phrase from economist J.K. Galbraith, the mind is repelled. This enormous swindle is so utterly flagrant and 'hidden' in plain sight that we just can't, or won't, see it. As Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, "The bigger the lie, the more inclined people will be to believe it."

And so it is today that many lies and half-truths and volumes of disinformation are skilfully spread by the vassals of the banksters to exert control over us. Key areas of deception include: the global fraud of central banking, pharmaceuticals and the Germ Theory, global warming, the myth of peak oil, the suppression of natural health protocols and supplements, the suppression of revolutionary free energy technology, genetically modified foods, etc.

The entire system of global finance, banking, taxation, politics, academia, media, the courts, regulatory bodies, and so on, have been carefully constructed and put into place over a period of 8 or more generations by the banksters for the banksters. A global Money Power controls everything, without exception. We have been told this explicitly by world leaders over the past 200 years, most recently by Presidents Eisenhower and Kennedy, with the latter being murdered for attempting to stand up to these homicidal thugs.


Predatory Bank

The Big Cheese of all the banksters, Mayer Amschel Rothschild, said in 1838: "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws".

This was no idle boast. By the mid-1850s, it was estimated that the Rothschilds owned half of Europe. How much of the world does the House of Rothschild own now? And how much is owned by the remaining handful of allied bankster dynasties?

As stated, the mainstream media is a major tool of the banksters by whose contrivances they control public opinion. And it works superbly. The gullibility of the populace must be a source of great joy to the banksters. The people are so believing of what they are told in the media that, in the words of a farmer I know, they "would swallow bananas sideways." Or, if we were to borrow a well-known biblical term, the Irish public would strain at a gnat, but swallow a camel.

The Mainstream Media Sell-Out


The world's mainstream media is owned today by a mere six monolithic corporations; just 30 years ago the mass media was owned by scores of independent corporations. With mergers and acquisitions the international banksters now have gained dominance over global TV, film, radio, radio, newspapers, and they're doing their damnedest to take charge of the internet too. The banksters control everything that most of the world sees, reads, or hears. This, indeed, is awesome power. It is more than awesome – it is horrifying!

The Irish mainstream media, as a lynchpin of the bankster elite, continuously portrays Sean Quinn as a bogey man, the man who cheated Irish taxpayers out of billions of euro. Quinn has been castigated as one of the major culprits of Ireland's economic suffering. The IBRC (formerly the Anglo Irish Bank) and the Government have cynically sidestepped their own guilt and heaped odium on Quinn and his family.

But none of their jejune propaganda stands up to scrutiny.

Admittedly, Sean Quinn made a serious error of judgement by investing in Anglo Irish Bank by use of a financial weapon of mass destruction known as Contract For Difference (CFD). That miscalculation led to grave problems for himself and his family. However, looking at it dispassionately, there is a very strong case that he would have paid off all his so-called debts to Anglo if he had been left alone to run his money-making Quinn Group. But the greed and avarice of special interests combined with Machiavellian politics conspired against him.

Government Treachery

Sean Quinn's difficulties with Anglo Irish Bank originated as a private affair. Sean Quinn, a private individual, entered into an arrangement with Anglo Irish Bank, a private corporation, using his own assets for collateral, private companies trading at considerable profit. With annual profits of some half a billion euro, Quinn could have effected a full pay-off to Anglo within an agreeable time frame. In reality, it was a totally private affair.

It all might have – and should have – ended there, to everyone's satisfaction.

However, in an incredible act of unprecedented treason, the Irish government of the day under Cowen and Lenihan, when faced with a systemic banking implosion, decided to take the huge private gambling debt of banking fraudsters and transfer it to the unsuspecting Irish public. The Irish people and their children and their grandchildren would now have to pay for the criminal excesses of the banksters, not one of whom was ever reprimanded in four years for their illicit behaviour and who continued to draw massive bonuses as a reward for their obscene fraud.

(Just a week ago, three former Anglo Irish banksters were arrested and questioned about fraud. It remains to be seen whether this is a dog & pony show designed to appease the people or whether the Office of Corporate Enforcement means serious business.)


Seanie Fitzpatrick Arrested

Among the billions of euro treacherously landed on the backs of the Irish people was the 2.8 billion euro allegedly owed by the Quinn family. With a stroke of a pen, this private debt to a private bank suddenly became the responsibility of the Irish people, courtesy of Cowen and Lenihan. Were the Irish people consulted about this? No. Neither was Sean Quinn. As Mr. Quinn said himself, "We never borrowed a penny from the taxpayer."

But then the bank, through a receiver, unlawfully seized Sean Quinn's companies on both sides of the border in a military style operation after they had tricked him into travelling to Dublin. The receivers pay themselves £1,000 an hour to run businesses in which they have little experience, if any at all. Other predators who have joined the feast include solicitors, accountants, actuaries, financiers, PR men, security personnel, and other 'advisors'. They will soon strip the carcass of its flesh and jeopardize the jobs of thousands of employees.


Bank Fraud – A Global Scam

So, to re-state the main point in the first paragraph, the wholescale looting of the assets of the Quinns is a deliberate criminal scheme to enrich the banksters. In their crime, the banksters are aided and abetted by the pillars of state – executive, legislature, judiciary, and media.

As mentioned earlier, Frederic Bastiat, in the 1840s, forecast the descent of governments and the courts into an ethos of corruption and collusion with thieves. One has only to recall a few names like Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, Michael Lowry, Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern, and a plethora of tribunals over the last 20 or 30 years to understand what Bastiat foresaw. And these are just the shenanigans we know about. Our entire system of 'democracy' is rotten to the core, not just in Ireland but globally too.

Get on Google or your favourite search engine and you'll see that there are millions of mortgages in the U.S.A. in limbo because of unprecedented bank fraud in the securitization of loans. You'll see that the courts there are chock-a-block with tens of thousands of homeowners and business owners suing their banks for fraud. You'll even see YouTube clips from mainstream television showing how thousands of young people, the 'Burger King' set, have admitted forging the signatures of bank presidents, lawyers, notaries, and borrowers on bank documents to help the banks fraudulently foreclose on hundreds of thousands – maybe millions – of homes and businesses.

The system in the U.S.A. is about to implode under the weight of criminality by the banks, as it will worldwide. And implode it should, for it is nothing but a diabolical scheme to impoverish the people and grossly enrich a small gang of international banksters. Yet the banksters and their lobbyists are making strenuous efforts to 'persuade' the Federal Government and the individual States to pass laws which will retroactively legalize their  innumerable crimes in return for agreed fines.



Since the BNP Paribas affair in 2007, we have had banking scandal after scandal after scandal and now we have the Libor Scandal. This is COLOSSAL. It involves the theft of perhaps a thousand trillion dollars by the manipulation of interest rates and bond prices by the banks, with the knowledge and cooperation of central banks, including the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England. The money stolen matches something like the entire GDP of the world 15 to 20 times over! In over four years of breathtaking banking frauds we've never seen anything like this before.

Writer Stephen Lendman refers to the Libor Scandal as a "Cesspool of Financial Fraud" and "Unprecedented Government Sanctioned Crime." Lendman goes on to say, "All major banks commit grand theft. It's standard practice. Corrupt politicians turn a blind eye. So do regulators. Western banking is rife with fraud...

"The system is too corrupt to fix. At issue is clearing it out and replacing it with an entirely new paradigm.

"Central bankers and complicit politicians bear full responsibility for what's happening. They're heading economies for a worse disaster than the Great Depression."

I started reading that then I went to the about section to find out about the blogger.


Gabriel Donohoe is a Writer and Natural Health Therapist who lives in Co. Cavan, Ireland. He sometimes uses the name "Fools Crow", in honour of a Lakota holy man and healer who dedicated his life to his people and to all of humankind.

Gabriel presently walks the Earth Path to heal suffering wherever he finds it, to learn by teaching others, and to whatever he can to help kindred spirits make this a better world for all of creation.

Like Old Fools Crow himself, he believes that all the peoples of the world have a right to peace and prosperity, to enjoy shelter and comfort, to eat the wholesome food that Mother Earth provides, to practise their religion freely, and to have the unobstructed freedom to practise natural medicine, if that is their considered choice.

Wakan tanka nici un mitakola (Walk in Peace, My Friends).


Need I say more  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on August 07, 2012, 11:51:29 AM

"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes." Winston Churchill

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 07, 2012, 11:55:29 AM
So its all a big global Zionist conspiracy and SQ had better not drive past any grassy knolls!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 12:10:36 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 11:13:04 AM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 11:03:37 AM
Let us rise." 'Big' Jim Larkin (1876-1947)

Invoking Jim Larkin in defence of Seán Quinn is a sick joke

Quote from: LeoMc on August 07, 2012, 11:55:29 AM
So its all a big global Zionist conspiracy and SQ had better not drive past any grassy knolls!

Who mentioned Zionism?
If that's all you took from the article then it is obviously wasted on you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 12:10:36 PM
If that's all you took from the article then it is obviously wasted on you.

You're right, it's wasted on someone who believes in paying their debts
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 07, 2012, 12:48:52 PM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 12:10:36 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 11:13:04 AM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 11:03:37 AM
Let us rise." 'Big' Jim Larkin (1876-1947)

Invoking Jim Larkin in defence of Seán Quinn is a sick joke

Quote from: LeoMc on August 07, 2012, 11:55:29 AM
So its all a big global Zionist conspiracy and SQ had better not drive past any grassy knolls!

Who mentioned Zionism?
If that's all you took from the article then it is obviously wasted on you.

The Big Cheese of all the banksters, Mayer Amschel Rothschild, said in 1838: "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws".

This was no idle boast. By the mid-1850s, it was estimated that the Rothschilds owned half of Europe. How much of the world does the House of Rothschild own now? And how much is owned by the remaining handful of allied bankster dynasties?


These are the same myths peddled in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
It is also covered in Poliakovs "Antisemitism: Myth and Hate from Antiquity to the Present"

Now I am not an economist but claims that 20 times the worlds GDP was stolen by the banks in 4 years sets off my buiishit  alarm.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on August 07, 2012, 12:53:32 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 12:10:36 PM
If that's all you took from the article then it is obviously wasted on you.

You're right, it's wasted on someone who believes in paying their debts

Like myself you were probably brought up to 'pay your dues', but if I were you I'd be mightily pissed off having to pay the dues of other greedy bankers, bondholders, shady business men (including Sean Quinn and his CFD's) and the dumb politicians who foisted this debt on the Irish taxpayers for the next few generations at the behest of the ruling classes in the IMF and Brussels.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 07, 2012, 12:57:47 PM
Boojangles, you would think you would know better posting that. Views from Cavan and Fermanagh are not appreciated. They're just Poor simple folk who know no better.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 07, 2012, 01:02:45 PM
7 August 2012 Last updated at 12:00 Share this pageEmail Print Share this page

Fermanagh council to send letter of support to Quinns Sean Quinn was once Ireland's richest man

Fermanagh District Council is to offer its "moral wishes of support" to bankrupt billionaire Sean Quinn and his family.

Chief Executive Brendan Hegarty will be sending a letter in light of the "significant contribution" by the Quinns to the border area.

Last month, a judge ruled that Mr Quinn, his son, Sean Quinn Jr and nephew, Peter Darragh Quinn, were in contempt of court. They hid millions in assets from the former Anglo Irish Bank.

Despite the legal proceedings, support for the Quinn family has been strong in the border areas.

A spokeswoman for Fermanagh District Council said that the chief executive would be writing to the Quinn family on behalf of the council.

It will say: "In light of the significant contribution by the Quinn family to the economic and community well-being of Fermanagh and the border area, the council took a decision to write acknowledging that this was a very difficult time for the family."

Sean Quinn jnr and Peter Darragh Quinn were both sentenced for contempt of court
The Enniskillen-based Impartial Reporter said that Independent councillor Bernice Swift had brought forward a proposal to write to the family "in their time of distress" at Monday night's council meeting.

Describing the Quinns as a family who have "provided a lot of employment to the border county" in the past, Ms Swift said she believed it was important the council showed support "in good times and bad".

The former Anglo Irish Bank was bailed out by Irish taxpayers and is now controlled by the Irish Banking Resolution Company (IBRC).

Following last month's proceedings, Sean Quinn Sr avoided jail but must co-operate with the IBRC within three months.

Mr Quinn jnr and Peter Darragh Quinn were given three-month jail terms.

Sean Quinn jnr is now in prison, although Peter Darragh Quinn failed to appear for sentencing and a warrant for his arrest was issued by the High Court in Dublin.

Several thousand people attended a rally in Ballyconnell, County Cavan, on 28 July Sunday to show their support for the family.

Among those attending was prominent priest Father Brian D'Arcy who described what has happened to the Quinn family as a "tragedy".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 01:05:59 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 07, 2012, 12:53:32 PM
Like myself you were probably brought up to 'pay your dues', but if I were you I'd be mightily pissed off having to pay the dues of other greedy bankers, bondholders, shady business men (including Sean Quinn and his CFD's) and the dumb politicians who foisted this debt on the Irish taxpayers for the next few generations at the behest of the ruling classes in the IMF and Brussels.

When it comes to Seán Quinn, too much is made of the taxpayer angle because it opens up the he-didn't-foist-it-on-the-taxpayer defence. Forget about the State-funded takeover of Anglo. Even if Anglo had been liquidated Seán Quinn would still have owed the money, the liquidators would still be chasing it and Seán Quinn would still be refusing to pay his debts, because that's what he does
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 01:15:15 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 12:10:36 PM
If that's all you took from the article then it is obviously wasted on you.

You're right, it's wasted on someone who believes in paying their debts

You're a great man Deiseach. We should all aspire to live our lifes with the same honesty as yourself. If we lived in a country that upheld and enforced the law equally among all citizens then the law and the courts would be something to believe in but in Ireland that is not the case as you know. As the article mentions, when the politicians, regulators and bankers are held responsible and humiliated the same way Sean Quinn has been and the malaise in the system is fixed then the Quinn defenders may be silenced.
I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 01:18:05 PM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 01:15:15 PM
As the article mentions, when the politicians, regulators and bankers are held responsible and humiliated the same way Sean Quinn has been and the malaise in the system is fixed then the Quinn defenders may be silenced.

Not a chance of that. The part about Quinn's defenders being silenced, that is. No amount of evidence of his lies and corruption will change their opinion of him

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 07, 2012, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 01:05:59 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 07, 2012, 12:53:32 PM
Like myself you were probably brought up to 'pay your dues', but if I were you I'd be mightily pissed off having to pay the dues of other greedy bankers, bondholders, shady business men (including Sean Quinn and his CFD's) and the dumb politicians who foisted this debt on the Irish taxpayers for the next few generations at the behest of the ruling classes in the IMF and Brussels.

When it comes to Seán Quinn, too much is made of the taxpayer angle because it opens up the he-didn't-foist-it-on-the-taxpayer defence. Forget about the State-funded takeover of Anglo. Even if Anglo had been liquidated Seán Quinn would still have owed the money, the liquidators would still be chasing it and Seán Quinn would still be refusing to pay his debts, because that's what he does

I agree too much is being made about the Taxpayers. But that's the line being taken by the papers as it sells copies. Anglo are only too happy to have it as a Taxpayer vs Quinn fight. Takes the limelight of them.
Quinn isn't refusing to pay a dept just for the hell of it Deiseach, you do realise that? He believes that the loans aren't legit. And the fact that the state decided to enforce the Loans before ad ressing that issue doesn't change that nor would it inspire justice in the system. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 01:28:24 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 01:18:05 PM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 01:15:15 PM
As the article mentions, when the politicians, regulators and bankers are held responsible and humiliated the same way Sean Quinn has been and the malaise in the system is fixed then the Quinn defenders may be silenced.

Not a chance of that. The part about Quinn's defenders being silenced, that is. No amount of evidence of his lies and corruption will change their opinion of him

You're 100% right. And no amount of spin, lies and propaganda from the media and the establishment will change that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 07, 2012, 01:28:43 PM
Reading some of the papers as past while, some of the reporting has been akin to the red tops in England - rags like the Sun etc.

Who gives a shite how much Sean Quinn's wifes handbag cost, what make of jeans or pair of shoes she's wearing or how many bathrooms are in her apartment and what size a television she watches or what her parents worked at etc etc.


I thought Irish newspapers set themselves apart from the gutter type journalism that the English papers peddled, but obviously for the Quinns and a few others, they're going to make an exception.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on August 07, 2012, 01:30:15 PM
Ahh fcuk it I think I'll say I don't believe the loans I have are legit.
I'm going to refuse to pay the Credit Union , Building Society and the Bank.
Hopefully a few thousand people will turn out to support me especially the "GAABoard Community" and various Priests and MEPs.
Time we all stopped paying our debts because otherwise " decent people" ( Traitors/corrupt greedy arrogant b****s more like) like the poor Quinns might be expected to pay theirs.
And we couldn't be having that now. ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 01:30:59 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 07, 2012, 01:28:43 PM
I thought Irish newspapers set themselves apart from the gutter type journalism that the English papers peddled

That was your first mistake ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 07, 2012, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 07, 2012, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 01:05:59 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 07, 2012, 12:53:32 PM
Like myself you were probably brought up to 'pay your dues', but if I were you I'd be mightily pissed off having to pay the dues of other greedy bankers, bondholders, shady business men (including Sean Quinn and his CFD's) and the dumb politicians who foisted this debt on the Irish taxpayers for the next few generations at the behest of the ruling classes in the IMF and Brussels.

When it comes to Seán Quinn, too much is made of the taxpayer angle because it opens up the he-didn't-foist-it-on-the-taxpayer defence. Forget about the State-funded takeover of Anglo. Even if Anglo had been liquidated Seán Quinn would still have owed the money, the liquidators would still be chasing it and Seán Quinn would still be refusing to pay his debts, because that's what he does

I agree too much is being made about the Taxpayers. But that's the line being taken by the papers as it sells copies. Anglo are only too happy to have it as a Taxpayer vs Quinn fight. Takes the limelight of them.
Quinn isn't refusing to pay a dept just for the hell of it Deiseach, you do realise that? He believes that the loans aren't legit. And the fact that the state decided to enforce the Loans before ad ressing that issue doesn't change that nor would it inspire justice in the system.
If the boul' Sean had made another few billion off the back of these loans I don't think he would be crying about their legality.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on August 07, 2012, 01:43:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 07, 2012, 01:02:45 PM
7 August 2012 Last updated at 12:00 Share this pageEmail Print Share this page

Fermanagh council to send letter of support to Quinns Sean Quinn was once Ireland's richest man

Fermanagh District Council is to offer its "moral wishes of support" to bankrupt billionaire Sean Quinn and his family.

Despite the legal proceedings, support for the Quinn family has been strong in the border areas.

A spokeswoman for Fermanagh District Council said that the chief executive would be writing to the Quinn family on behalf of the council.

It will say: "In light of the significant contribution by the Quinn family to the economic and community well-being of Fermanagh and the border area, the council took a decision to write acknowledging that this was a very difficult time for the family."


Wow.  The last bit is fine, that is just stating a fact.  But what exactly are "support" and "moral wishes of support".  Just for the record as a rate payer in Fermanagh I was not consulted on this move by the Council!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: the Deel Rover on August 07, 2012, 01:45:16 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 07, 2012, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 07, 2012, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 01:05:59 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 07, 2012, 12:53:32 PM
Like myself you were probably brought up to 'pay your dues', but if I were you I'd be mightily pissed off having to pay the dues of other greedy bankers, bondholders, shady business men (including Sean Quinn and his CFD's) and the dumb politicians who foisted this debt on the Irish taxpayers for the next few generations at the behest of the ruling classes in the IMF and Brussels.

When it comes to Seán Quinn, too much is made of the taxpayer angle because it opens up the he-didn't-foist-it-on-the-taxpayer defence. Forget about the State-funded takeover of Anglo. Even if Anglo had been liquidated Seán Quinn would still have owed the money, the liquidators would still be chasing it and Seán Quinn would still be refusing to pay his debts, because that's what he does

I agree too much is being made about the Taxpayers. But that's the line being taken by the papers as it sells copies. Anglo are only too happy to have it as a Taxpayer vs Quinn fight. Takes the limelight of them.
Quinn isn't refusing to pay a dept just for the hell of it Deiseach, you do realise that? He believes that the loans aren't legit. And the fact that the state decided to enforce the Loans before ad ressing that issue doesn't change that nor would it inspire justice in the system.
If the boul' Sean had made another few billion off the back of these loans I don't think he would be crying about their legality.

Exactly he took a massive gamble and it backfired .
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 07, 2012, 01:47:06 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 07, 2012, 01:39:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 07, 2012, 01:18:54 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 07, 2012, 01:05:59 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 07, 2012, 12:53:32 PM
Like myself you were probably brought up to 'pay your dues', but if I were you I'd be mightily pissed off having to pay the dues of other greedy bankers, bondholders, shady business men (including Sean Quinn and his CFD's) and the dumb politicians who foisted this debt on the Irish taxpayers for the next few generations at the behest of the ruling classes in the IMF and Brussels.

When it comes to Seán Quinn, too much is made of the taxpayer angle because it opens up the he-didn't-foist-it-on-the-taxpayer defence. Forget about the State-funded takeover of Anglo. Even if Anglo had been liquidated Seán Quinn would still have owed the money, the liquidators would still be chasing it and Seán Quinn would still be refusing to pay his debts, because that's what he does

I agree too much is being made about the Taxpayers. But that's the line being taken by the papers as it sells copies. Anglo are only too happy to have it as a Taxpayer vs Quinn fight. Takes the limelight of them.
Quinn isn't refusing to pay a dept just for the hell of it Deiseach, you do realise that? He believes that the loans aren't legit. And the fact that the state decided to enforce the Loans before ad ressing that issue doesn't change that nor would it inspire justice in the system.
If the boul' Sean had made another few billion off the back of these loans I don't think he would be crying about their legality.
Prob not Tony. But then that's why there's even stricter laws for financial organisations like Anglo to prevent individuals taking those gambles, not to help them along. 
And if we're playing that game I'm sure the Boul' Sean wouldn't have invested so heavily had he known the reality of Anglo's books, but unfortunately that wasn't to be considering the fudging that had taken place.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 07, 2012, 02:09:00 PM
What's few hundred million between friends ?

The President of the High Court has been told that the possible €1.65bn call on the Insurance Compensation Fund as a result of losses at Quinn Insurance Limited in the UK may not be the worst-case scenario.


The call on the insurance fund has gone from €738m to a possible €1.65bnPlay Stop  One News: €1.6bn losses at Quinn Insurance may not be the final figure
Domhnall Cullinan, head of insurance supervision at the Central Bank, said there was always the possibility the situation could look worse if further layers of the onion were peeled back.

However, he said he was satisfied the joint administrators of the company had gone through a very robust process in arriving at the figures they had now arrived at.

Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns was hearing evidence from the administrators and information from the Central Bank about how the call on the insurance fund had gone from €738m when the application came before him last October to a possible €1.65bn.

He was told the Minister for Finance had expressed frustration at the fact that the figures continued to rise at very short intervals.

In correspondence with the administrators, the minister said he was at a loss as to how such a large underestimation in the potential call on the ICF could not have been foreseen to a greater extent.

The minister wrote to the administrators in June and said the new figure was a matter of substantial concern particularly when considered in the context of the very difficult financial environment the country was now grappling with.

He said it was "remarkable" that the figure continued to climb by substantial amounts in relatively short periods of time.

In a later letter in July, the minister said he could not understand how the administrators as highly remunerated professional administrators with the support of highly remunerated actuaries and auditors could not have had greater insight into the total increased cost at an earlier stage and he said he was concerned by the manner in which the Government had been misled by incomplete information and estimation.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thejuice on August 07, 2012, 05:33:19 PM
Going back to a tread I started on the Easter Rising commemorations and the lack of civic duty or pride. This article by Fintan O'Toole (yeah, I know but lets not shoot the messenger) sums up exactly what I was referring to while also tying it into the Sean Quinn case.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0807/1224321629744.html?via=mr

QuoteThe Quinn affair shows significant numbers of Irish people are in literal contempt of the courts, writes FINTAN O'TOOLE

SOMETIMES, YOU forget how tenuous and fragile a thing is the Irish State, how little it means to so many of its citizens. By the State, I don't mean the nation, the flag, pride in being Irish – all that visceral emotion. I mean, rather, two rational things, one tangible, the other abstract.

The State is a set of institutions – the Government, the Oireachtas, the Civil Service, public services, the law, the courts. It is also a broad but crucial sense of mutual dependence – the idea that there's a collective self that goes beyond the narrow realms of family and locality.

To function at all, we have to make the working assumption that those institutions and that idea are part of what we are, that, however vehemently we disagree with each other about however many things, there is this common ground on which we stand. Even when we rail against the institutions (for loyalty is not the same thing as passive obedience), we do so because we identify with them – they are ours to criticise. And even when we are angry at our fellow citizens, we recognise that what affects them affects us too, that there such a thing as a common good.

Everyone knows, of course, that there are subgroups – criminals, subversives – who have no loyalty to the State at all, who have contempt for its institutions and who don't recognise the notion of the common good. But the working assumption is that these groups are small, marginal and outside the mainstream of society. They are, indeed, defined by the very fact that they transgress against what we take to be a norm that enjoys overwhelming acceptance. They don't threaten the basic assumptions about the State – they actually reinforce them.

And then, every so often, there's a moment when those assumptions crumble. The idea that the vast majority of people are loyal to the State is suddenly exposed for what it is: a useful fiction. What happens is that very large numbers of people who would never think of themselves as criminals or subversives reveal the truth that they don't really have much time for key State institutions such as the law and the courts and that they simply don't believe that there is an over-arching common good that means anything when you set it against more potent local loyalties.

This is what we've seen over the last fortnight in the Quinn affair. Very significant numbers of decent, respectable Irish people – not a majority but not a tiny minority either – are in literal contempt of the courts. They really don't give a damn what the courts find – if those findings come into conflict with their own deeper loyalties. They know that two separate High Court judges – Judge Dunne and Judge Kelly, both used to dealing with very bad stuff – have used language of rare vehemence about the actions of the Quinns in stripping €455 million worth of assets from public ownership: "dishonesty and sharp practice", "blatant, dishonest and deceitful", "as far removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be". Some idiots among them truly believe that the judges are part of a giant conspiracy against the Quinns. Most know damn well that this is nonsense, but they simply don't care.

Nor do these decent, respectable people believe that there is a common good that operates at the level of the State and that could possibly outweigh an almost feudal loyalty to a local hero. The State, for them, is a vague, hazy and distant thing – too nebulous to command any real fidelity. The idea that encouraging the Quinns to siphon off €455 million of public assets might harm their fellow citizens has no meaning for them because, deep down, they don't actually believe that there are such creatures as fellow citizens. There are good GAA people, good Cavan people, good Fermanagh people – those are the "imagined communities" that command respect and allegiance. A larger citizenship signifies nothing. The people who might be harmed by the Quinns' actions are not Us but Them.

There are reasons for all of this. Many of the most vocal Quinn supporters do not, of course, have the option of belonging to the State – they live and pay their taxes across the Border and they grew up with contempt for the "Free State" as a given. The entire political culture of clientilism encourages people to think about the good of the locality, not of the State as a collective entity. Large parts of the Irish elite have demonstrated, with impunity, their own contempt for the law and the common good by evading and avoiding taxes. And of course the State itself is now a sad and tattered thing, stripped of the sovereignty that gives it life.

Even so, it is shocking to be brought face-to-face with the reality that ours is a State to which many of its decent, respectable inhabitants feel no attachment whatsoever. Here is a reminder, if another were needed, of the stark choice that faces us: watch the State dwindle away or get serious about building a real republic.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=21465.0
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 06:17:03 PM
Quote from: thejuice on August 07, 2012, 05:33:19 PM
Going back to a tread I started on the Easter Rising commemorations and the lack of civic duty or pride. This article by Fintan O'Toole (yeah, I know but lets not shoot the messenger) sums up exactly what I was referring to while also tying it into the Sean Quinn case.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0807/1224321629744.html?via=mr

QuoteThe Quinn affair shows significant numbers of Irish people are in literal contempt of the courts, writes FINTAN O'TOOLE

SOMETIMES, YOU forget how tenuous and fragile a thing is the Irish State, how little it means to so many of its citizens. By the State, I don't mean the nation, the flag, pride in being Irish – all that visceral emotion. I mean, rather, two rational things, one tangible, the other abstract.

The State is a set of institutions – the Government, the Oireachtas, the Civil Service, public services, the law, the courts. It is also a broad but crucial sense of mutual dependence – the idea that there's a collective self that goes beyond the narrow realms of family and locality.

To function at all, we have to make the working assumption that those institutions and that idea are part of what we are, that, however vehemently we disagree with each other about however many things, there is this common ground on which we stand. Even when we rail against the institutions (for loyalty is not the same thing as passive obedience), we do so because we identify with them – they are ours to criticise. And even when we are angry at our fellow citizens, we recognise that what affects them affects us too, that there such a thing as a common good.

Everyone knows, of course, that there are subgroups – criminals, subversives – who have no loyalty to the State at all, who have contempt for its institutions and who don't recognise the notion of the common good. But the working assumption is that these groups are small, marginal and outside the mainstream of society. They are, indeed, defined by the very fact that they transgress against what we take to be a norm that enjoys overwhelming acceptance. They don't threaten the basic assumptions about the State – they actually reinforce them.

And then, every so often, there's a moment when those assumptions crumble. The idea that the vast majority of people are loyal to the State is suddenly exposed for what it is: a useful fiction. What happens is that very large numbers of people who would never think of themselves as criminals or subversives reveal the truth that they don't really have much time for key State institutions such as the law and the courts and that they simply don't believe that there is an over-arching common good that means anything when you set it against more potent local loyalties.

This is what we've seen over the last fortnight in the Quinn affair. Very significant numbers of decent, respectable Irish people – not a majority but not a tiny minority either – are in literal contempt of the courts. They really don't give a damn what the courts find – if those findings come into conflict with their own deeper loyalties. They know that two separate High Court judges – Judge Dunne and Judge Kelly, both used to dealing with very bad stuff – have used language of rare vehemence about the actions of the Quinns in stripping €455 million worth of assets from public ownership: "dishonesty and sharp practice", "blatant, dishonest and deceitful", "as far removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be". Some idiots among them truly believe that the judges are part of a giant conspiracy against the Quinns. Most know damn well that this is nonsense, but they simply don't care.

Nor do these decent, respectable people believe that there is a common good that operates at the level of the State and that could possibly outweigh an almost feudal loyalty to a local hero. The State, for them, is a vague, hazy and distant thing – too nebulous to command any real fidelity. The idea that encouraging the Quinns to siphon off €455 million of public assets might harm their fellow citizens has no meaning for them because, deep down, they don't actually believe that there are such creatures as fellow citizens. There are good GAA people, good Cavan people, good Fermanagh people – those are the "imagined communities" that command respect and allegiance. A larger citizenship signifies nothing. The people who might be harmed by the Quinns' actions are not Us but Them.

There are reasons for all of this. Many of the most vocal Quinn supporters do not, of course, have the option of belonging to the State – they live and pay their taxes across the Border and they grew up with contempt for the "Free State" as a given. The entire political culture of clientilism encourages people to think about the good of the locality, not of the State as a collective entity. Large parts of the Irish elite have demonstrated, with impunity, their own contempt for the law and the common good by evading and avoiding taxes. And of course the State itself is now a sad and tattered thing, stripped of the sovereignty that gives it life.

Even so, it is shocking to be brought face-to-face with the reality that ours is a State to which many of its decent, respectable inhabitants feel no attachment whatsoever. Here is a reminder, if another were needed, of the stark choice that faces us: watch the State dwindle away or get serious about building a real republic.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=21465.0

Condescending. O Toole knows only too well (he wrote a book on the matter) about the complete lack of accountability and honesty shown by law makers in Ireland. Until we have that how can he or anybody expect civic responsibility or pride from people. Over half a million people chose not to pay the Household charge. Are they wrong or is our government wrong?
Sean Quinn was wrong, mis-guided, greedy and dishonest in a lot of ways of that there is no doubt but why doesn't O Toole (as sub editor of one of the last semi-respectable broadsheets in Ireland) accept his responsibility and get stuck into the real problems in this country which have us in the mess we're in and not be deflected by this agenda driven sideshow.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 07, 2012, 06:44:28 PM
Quinn backers living in a fools paradise


There was a time when I would have been in agreement with many of the sentiments expressed in Ballyconnell last Sunday evening at the now infamous rally in support of local businessman Seán Quinn. Indeed, in this column back in July 2008 I wrote supportingly about Quinn, at a time when speculation was becoming rampant about his exposure to a fall in the value of shares in Anglo Irish Bank.

Like the majority of people I was not aware of the true situation and that Quinn's purchase of contracts for difference — a toxic form of high-risk gambling on shares — was far bigger than believed. So I had no hesitation in praising Quinn's can-do philosophy and entrepreneurial talents.

Indeed, I even suggested others would do well to emulate him. Quinn had created something out of nothing in a part of the country that had seen little investment and where emigration was the alternative to poverty. The bulk of the 6,100 people employed by the group in Ireland were based in border counties or nearby, working in cement, glass and radiator manufacturing, pubs, hotels and golf courses, or supplying insurance. Other businesses thrived by trading with Quinn. It seemed that no state agency or planned economic model could have achieved what he had.

I believed, wrongly, that Quinn had the resources to absorb whatever losses he was enduring on the ownership of those now infamous shares. I had assumed also that if Quinn was borrowing to buy shares, or to cover losses as the shares declined in value, that cash was available and, if not, that he could sell investments to raise it.

That was then. Since 2008 we have learnt the truth and it is not pretty. Assets belonging to the Quinn Group were transferred to Quinn family members at surprisingly low prices; Quinn Insurance funds were misused to cover his stock market gambles.

Far from being a modest, cautious, prudent businessman, whose only vice was to play cards with friends on a Tuesday evening for a fiver, Quinn was an outrageous gambler at the casino end of the stock market. As he discovered he didn't have enough money to cover his bets, he recklessly used other people's money to do so, including that of the insurance company.

While none of this changed what Quinn had created or achieved, it did outweigh it. And that was even before the outrageous, scandalous behaviour of the past year or so after the appointment of receivers to his empire by the state-owned Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, which houses the carcass of Anglo Irish Bank. The legal language says that the Quinn family has put assets "beyond the reach" of the Irish people who properly own them. Most of us have another word for that behaviour.

Some people, however, don't want to know any of this. While loyalty to Quinn in the border region was honourable in the early days of his crisis, it should have evaporated as the facts became known. If it followed the script, his subjects should have realised that their emperor had no clothes. Indeed, they should recognise that not only has his behaviour cost the state billions of euros, it has also endangered their very own livelihoods, many of which have been saved by the very state that they are now attacking. Their misplaced loyalty makes Quinn's supporters look like fools.

Since the jailing of his son, Seán Quinn Jr, for contempt and the cowardly flight of his nephew Peter Darragh, Quinn Sr has been engaged in a concerted campaign of obfuscation designed to mislead the public as to how he and his family have been treated by the Irish state. Perfectly appropriate decisions by the High Court have been characterised as part of a nefarious plot to make the Quinns scapegoats, to portray them as innocent victims while the guilty go free.

One of the main arguments employed is that €2.3 billion of loans made to Quinn by Anglo were illegal and therefore don't need to be repaid. The Quinns concede that this is the subject of a future court case but somehow try to hold out that this justifies their disobeying a court order to hand over the assets that secured a further €500m in loans that not even the Quinns admit are in dispute.

My own view is that there should be a full criminal investigation into the provision of those loans, one that holds both the Anglo management of 2008 and the Quinns accountable for their mutual complicity, and which also includes the Department of Finance and the Central Bank of Ireland in its ambit. Official documents filed at the time the Quinns were being supplied with massive loans said they were for "general corporate purposes" when, instead, it was clear they were to help him meet payments due on his failed share trades. Both sides were complicit in constructing a lie and both knew exactly why they were doing it.

Anglo should never have made this money available. It gave Quinn the loan even though bondholders and Barclays Bank were first in line for repayments of €1.3 billion. Anglo Irish, however, allowed itself to go to the back of the queue for repayment. That the former financial regulator allowed a loan of that size, on those terms, in those circumstances, is a huge scandal.

The situation became worse when Anglo then lent money to 10 favoured clients who bought some of the secret 28% shareholding Quinn had acquired in the bank. This deal has resulted in a loss of €450m as the loans were secured on the Anglo shares that were being acquired. Those shares eventually became literally worthless. Criminal prosecutions have been brought against some of those involved in this element of the whole mess, something the Quinns have seized upon.

It has always appeared to me that if the Quinn children and Patricia, Seán Sr's wife, had grounds for legal action arising from the Anglo loans then they should take a case against the patriarch Seán Sr, who landed them in it by agreeing the loan and pledging "their" assets as security in the event of non-repayment. Those loans were not just to save Anglo, as he has claimed, but to save Quinn.

Quinn also complains bitterly about the removal of Quinn Insurance from his control in 2010, but why didn't it happen earlier? The fine he received in 2008 for his egregious breach of the rules, when he used money from the insurance company to shore up his gambling debts, should have resulted in far greater penalties. The manner in which Quinn ran that business means anybody who buys insurance in this country over the next 20 years will pay an additional 2% levy to fund Quinn's losses. Has Quinn apologised for this? No, instead he maintains the fiction that he could have generated enough money from the business to repay his debts had he been allowed to keep control.

His supporters in Cavan who say all they want is justice are not alone. As he is one of the fools who has wrecked this country, the rest of the country wants justice for Seán Quinn too. Most people can see through the deeply cynical and opportunist populism that the Quinns and their supporters have been engaging in for the past few weeks. Those people who marched in Ballyconnell last week need to acquaint themselves with the facts and leave the fiction to Hollywood.

Matt Cooper (The Sunday Times 5th Aug 2012)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Gaffer on August 07, 2012, 08:05:14 PM
Quote from: AQMP on August 07, 2012, 10:05:58 AM
Quote from: Gaffer on August 07, 2012, 10:03:34 AM
Ok.  What is his day to day role as a priest ?

He is the Rector of the Passionist Monastery at the Graan near Enniskillen.  These days I think there are only 2 priests left there, so after doing the breakfast dishes he'd have a bit of spare time right enough!

Must be a handy aul number
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thejuice on August 07, 2012, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 06:17:03 PM
Condescending. O Toole knows only too well (he wrote a book on the matter) about the complete lack of accountability and honesty shown by law makers in Ireland. Until we have that how can he or anybody expect civic responsibility or pride from people. Over half a million people chose not to pay the Household charge. Are they wrong or is our government wrong?
Sean Quinn was wrong, mis-guided, greedy and dishonest in a lot of ways of that there is no doubt but why doesn't O Toole (as sub editor of one of the last semi-respectable broadsheets in Ireland) accept his responsibility and get stuck into the real problems in this country which have us in the mess we're in and not be deflected by this agenda driven sideshow.

But as you said yourself O'Toole wrote a book on it, therefore did get stuck into the real problems.

The government is of the people, that's what he is saying. You talk about the people and the government as if there is some huge divide.

Who elects them? Where do they come from? Why did it take until it started hurting our pockets to kick FF out of government?

The government of this country didn't fall from the sky, they are of this country, of our society and of our people.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 11:00:12 PM
Quote from: thejuice on August 07, 2012, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: boojangles on August 07, 2012, 06:17:03 PM
Condescending. O Toole knows only too well (he wrote a book on the matter) about the complete lack of accountability and honesty shown by law makers in Ireland. Until we have that how can he or anybody expect civic responsibility or pride from people. Over half a million people chose not to pay the Household charge. Are they wrong or is our government wrong?
Sean Quinn was wrong, mis-guided, greedy and dishonest in a lot of ways of that there is no doubt but why doesn't O Toole (as sub editor of one of the last semi-respectable broadsheets in Ireland) accept his responsibility and get stuck into the real problems in this country which have us in the mess we're in and not be deflected by this agenda driven sideshow.

But as you said yourself O'Toole wrote a book on it, therefore did get stuck into the real problems.

The government is of the people, that's what he is saying. You talk about the people and the government as if there is some huge divide.

Who elects them? Where do they come from? Why did it take until it started hurting our pockets to kick FF out of government?

The government of this country didn't fall from the sky, they are of this country, of our society and of our people.

Yes he wrote an excellent book on it which although slightly idealistic did give a blueprint to the way our country could be run. BUT he writes for the Times every day, and I know he has to cover various topics I have rarely read or seen him following up on what he wrote about in 'How to Build a New Republic' calling politicians to account for their failings or championing for a complete overhaul of the political system. O Toole is a great man to find faults in so many things in this country but for a man in his position he has the ability but also a responsibility to try and change things for the better.

I wouldn't say there is a huge divide between the people and government but so many people in this country don't educate themselves when it comes to voting. That is why we end up with such an inept government. I fully agree with your point about why it took a major recession for us to wake up to FF's corruption and mismanagement but please god we as a people have become more politically aware as a result.

We could debate all night about this but my main point is not about the government and its constitution or make up but rather that the whole political system needs a major overhaul for this country to ever get back up of its knees. Fine Gael/ Labour hands are tied in a lot of ways but they have forgotten about the raison d'etat and are more interested in keeping our so-called partners in Europe happy. I know I'm bordering on rhetoric here but this country needs a De Gaulle type figure who can see beyond their own personal and parties interests and make decisions for the long term good of the country.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on August 08, 2012, 08:29:01 AM
Coopers article is right on the money and now we'll have to pay a 2% levy on our insurance for the foreseeable future to pay for how Quinn ran his insurance business into the ground
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on August 08, 2012, 08:48:33 AM
Some snips from that article by Matt Cooper

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 07, 2012, 06:44:28 PM
Quinn backers living in a fools paradise


There was a time when I would have been in agreement with many of the sentiments expressed in Ballyconnell last Sunday evening at the now infamous rally in support of local businessman Seán Quinn. Indeed, in this column back in July 2008 I wrote supportingly about Quinn, at a time when speculation was becoming rampant about his exposure to a fall in the value of shares in Anglo Irish Bank.
-----
Like the majority of people I was not aware of the true situation and that Quinn's purchase of contracts for difference — a toxic form of high-risk gambling on shares — was far bigger than believed. So I had no hesitation in praising Quinn's can-do philosophy and entrepreneurial talents.
-----
Quinn Insurance funds were misused to cover his stock market gambles.

Matt Cooper (The Sunday Times 5th Aug 2012)
I don't get the bit where purchasing shares  with CFDs is in itself a toxic form of high risk gambling.
The buyer agrees a price, makes a downpayment and pays the rest over a period of time, according to contract.
What made this toxic was that it was Anglo, the shares were already overpriced and Anglo was already in a tailspin.
And Quinn chased his losses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 08, 2012, 09:07:25 AM
Couple of things with regards that money Declan.

Firstly the UK losses for QIL were massive, no doubt about that. Most costs came from indemnity insurance for Solicitors etc. And Quinn admits that it was a mistake getting in too deeply on that. But QIL had other profitable areas, (ROI and NI) that would have helped to balance part of the losses the company was making (Admittedly not the whole amount in one go). But then IBRC and Liberty (For a nod and a wink) took over the profitable sectors and the profits on these sectors were ringfenced. They allowed the company to be split in two. One taking the losses without affecting the profits being made by the other sector. The loss making side has been passed onto the policy holders via the levy. So now the state is making profit from the profit making side of the business (all be it halfed for the split with Liberty) and taking money in from the Levy. It's a win win scenario for them. A tax that they can blame someone else for imposing. 
In addition to that, there is the fees of the administrators over the two years. That nicely tops up the 1.3B as well.

I'm not going to say QIL was the best business about nor do I believe that it was as cash rich as SQ believes it was. But neither do I believe it was as bad as is being made out. The above are two major issues that I would have with the figures. There are other smaller ones with regards the reserves, but without anything to back it up there's not much point in going into it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 08, 2012, 09:10:13 AM
Quote from: Main Street on August 08, 2012, 08:48:33 AM
Some snips from that article by Matt Cooper

Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 07, 2012, 06:44:28 PM
Quinn backers living in a fools paradise


There was a time when I would have been in agreement with many of the sentiments expressed in Ballyconnell last Sunday evening at the now infamous rally in support of local businessman Seán Quinn. Indeed, in this column back in July 2008 I wrote supportingly about Quinn, at a time when speculation was becoming rampant about his exposure to a fall in the value of shares in Anglo Irish Bank.
-----
Like the majority of people I was not aware of the true situation and that Quinn's purchase of contracts for difference — a toxic form of high-risk gambling on shares — was far bigger than believed. So I had no hesitation in praising Quinn's can-do philosophy and entrepreneurial talents.
-----
Quinn Insurance funds were misused to cover his stock market gambles.

Matt Cooper (The Sunday Times 5th Aug 2012)
I don't get the bit where purchasing shares  with CFDs is in itself a toxic form of high risk gambling.
The buyer agrees a price, makes a downpayment and pays the rest over a period of time, according to contract.
What made this toxic was that it was Anglo, the shares were already overpriced and Anglo was already in a tailspin.
And Quinn chased his losses.

They are toxic because they are traded on margin. You only have to have the finance available to cover the expected change in value. This means you only requires a small amount of finance to take a large position, more so where you are using the shares you are buying as leverage. When the a$$ falls out of the shares (due to the Anglo boos being cooked!) you can be liable for many multiples of what you "invested".

CFD's are illegal in the US.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on August 08, 2012, 09:36:49 AM
Yeah, I suppose the mere fact that one could purchase a 25% stake in a major bank using this instrument makes it toxic.

I thought Quinn had to make a 20% downpayment for these shares.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thejuice on August 08, 2012, 10:38:24 AM
http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/08/07/the-real-dilemma-of-the-quinn-affair-the-invisibility-of-the-irish-state-to-its-own-people/

The O'Toole article being debated on Slugger:

would pull out these 2 points from it.

Quote
Alias

There is a substantive difference between fidelity to the Nation and loyalty to the State. The Irish constitution recognises this difference and makes both conditions a duty of citizens. However, it also makes explicit that the former is the greater duty than the latter and that the latter duty only exists as the means of exercising the former duty.

It also recognises a substantive difference between the Government and the State. Where the government is acting counter to its duty given in Article 6 to promote the common good (as it is doing by promoting the EU interest to the direct detriment of the national interest) then it is violating its duty and acts without the legitimacy conferred on it by Article 6. In that circumstance, it is proper that the government should be opposed by the people.

If the people decided that Anglo bondholders should not be bailed-out by the people in order to promote the common good of foreign risktakers at the direct expense of the common good of the people then Sean Quinn would rightly be a hero for refusing to co-operate with the government's illegitimate policy.

It is the people's right under Article 6 to decide this policy of bailing-out the eurozone as it is "in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good."

The people should vote accordingly on the policy, and if they approve of it, then Sean Quinn and his local supporters will be deprived of any basis to claim that moral right is on their side. After that, it could no longer be claimed that the State is acting without legitimacy and in violation of Article 6. The local supporters would be acting fully in accordance with the national interest and the common good.

It's interesting that this disconnection between nation and state is keener in the border areas, and in NI where the Irish nation lives within a British state. The State must be a nation-state and act to promote the national interest before it command the loyalty of the nation. Unless you're part of the British nation, NI will never command your loyalty as its national interest is not your national interest.

As ever-more of Irish nation's sovereignty is given away to the EU by its quisling government, the disconnection between nation and state becomes ever-greater, with the state no longer serving the national interest but rather serving the EU interest in those areas where the sovereignty is given away.

You can see this drift all across the EU, but it isn't surprising that it should be greater in the EU's only truly republican state where power is vested in the people and loaned to the state to promote the interests of the people rather than vested in the state itself and owned by it.

Incidentally, that duty of fidelity to the nation (in addition to loyalty to the state) is one of the reasons why the Constitution is under attack (called a review): as a reunified Ireland under the British Irish Agreement would not be a nation-state it cannot be held that two nations of Irish and British who are to share the unified state with parity of esteem between them can have fidelity to one nation. This requirement of fidelity (How can the British nation express fidelity to the Irish nation?) must therefore be removed, replaced with merely loyalty to the state. It's all part-and-parcel of the stealth agenda converting the Irish into a non-sovereign nation without their knowledge or consent.


Quoteaquifer

Nation States have diminished in relative terms. They do not constrain the movement of capital, so a whole class of sanctions are missing. They do less because financial markets demand it. Nations are made less different by free markets. Economic Nationalism failed competitively. Social Democracy failed politically here, partly due to the residual influence of the churches.

Funding for political activity is missing or for lobbying for private interests.
The demands of the electorate tends to leave states bankrupt and eventually ineffective. The capacity of Ethnic Nations to progress economically through genocides is constrained by the members of the United Nations security council.

We should be less surprised that selfish private and familial interests command some respect, as they still have power over their finances, and can sustain economic activity across state boundaries.

The Catholic Church has to be a successful multinational in a world of struggling states. It makes economic sense for the church to identify with private and family interests and to disrespect modern states, and even to destroy some of the more socialist.


In the tread I started on the EU federalisation I asked if anyone able to make an argument for nationalism in the 21st century. I don't think I got one convincing reply.

If Rob Hopkins' and Richard Heinberg's hypotheses are true then perhaps the return of the nation state may well be a natural occurrence. A return to the nation state or fiefdom.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 08, 2012, 11:07:49 AM
Quote from: Declan on August 08, 2012, 08:29:01 AM
Coopers article is right on the money and now we'll have to pay a 2% levy on our insurance for the foreseeable future to pay for how Quinn ran his insurance business into the ground

If it had been ran into the ground so much then why the hell would one of the largest Insurance companies in the world get involved in it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on August 08, 2012, 11:40:23 AM
QuoteIf it had been ran into the ground so much then why the hell would one of the largest Insurance companies in the world get involved in it?

Liberty bought the business, which has excellent staff and an existing customer base. They did not buy the outstanding liabilities from reckless policies in the past, these fall on the rest of us.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on August 08, 2012, 11:43:24 AM
QuoteIf it had been ran into the ground so much then why the hell would one of the largest Insurance companies in the world get involved in it?

Liberty bought the business, which has excellent staff and an existing customer base. They did not buy the outstanding liabilities from reckless policies in the past, these fall on the rest of us.

Exactly -because in the perverse world of global capitalism you socialise the losses and privatise the profits
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 08, 2012, 11:49:55 AM
Agree totally. Liberty were given a ridulous deal by Anglo. They allowed Liberty to take all the good points from the business without having to take any of the liabilities. Crazy crazy deal!! 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on August 08, 2012, 12:04:08 PM
QuoteAgree totally. Liberty were given a ridulous deal by Anglo. They allowed Liberty to take all the good points from the business without having to take any of the liabilities. Crazy crazy deal!!

Perhaps. But Liberty have the capital and the expertise to save the good parts of the business and the jobs. Had Quinn or Anglo remained in charge the good business would have drifted away as people would not have faith that they would be paid if they had a claim, so all that would have been left was the liabilities in any case.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: guy crouchback on August 08, 2012, 12:25:14 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 08, 2012, 12:04:08 PM
QuoteAgree totally. Liberty were given a ridulous deal by Anglo. They allowed Liberty to take all the good points from the business without having to take any of the liabilities. Crazy crazy deal!!

Perhaps. But Liberty have the capital and the expertise to save the good parts of the business and the jobs. Had Quinn or Anglo remained in charge the good business would have drifted away as people would not have faith that they would be paid if they had a claim, so all that would have been left was the liabilities in any case.

this.
the deal to sell to liberty was all about saving the jobs and was in fact a great deal for the state and the people of cavan.
liberty agreed to keep the business going as a going concern in return for not having to take on the losses.

if this had not happened the administrator/liquidator would have sold off the ''book of business'' that was preforming to some other company (there were a few sniffing around) and they would have subsumed it within their own company resulting in the complete closure of Quinn and wholesale job losses.
either way the state would have hap to pick up the tab for the losses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 08, 2012, 12:36:13 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 08, 2012, 12:04:08 PM
QuoteAgree totally. Liberty were given a ridiculous deal by Anglo. They allowed Liberty to take all the good points from the business without having to take any of the liabilities. Crazy crazy deal!!

Perhaps. But Liberty have the capital and the expertise to save the good parts of the business and the jobs. Had Quinn or Anglo remained in charge the good business would have drifted away as people would not have faith that they would be paid if they had a claim, so all that would have been left was the liabilities in any case.

Liberty put up 100M Euro total, that was it and got 49% of all the good parts of the business. I also disagree that people would have drifted away. There was never a risk of claims not being paid as virtually ever policy would have had to claim for that to be a risk. The company could have continued to trade without the exposure to the unprofitable sections of the business. QIL had already learned from their costly mistakes in the UK markets and would have been in a position to trade out of it. The profits wouldn't have been diverted of so the losses made on the UK market would have been to a certain extent reduced. They company was well run as the administrators have previously said and have well below average settlement figures due to their fast track approach. A point that the administrators refused to take into account when setting reserves.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: guy crouchback on August 08, 2012, 01:49:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 08, 2012, 12:36:13 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 08, 2012, 12:04:08 PM
QuoteAgree totally. Liberty were given a ridiculous deal by Anglo. They allowed Liberty to take all the good points from the business without having to take any of the liabilities. Crazy crazy deal!!

Perhaps. But Liberty have the capital and the expertise to save the good parts of the business and the jobs. Had Quinn or Anglo remained in charge the good business would have drifted away as people would not have faith that they would be paid if they had a claim, so all that would have been left was the liabilities in any case.

Liberty put up 100M Euro total, that was it and got 49% of all the good parts of the business. I also disagree that people would have drifted away. There was never a risk of claims not being paid as virtually ever policy would have had to claim for that to be a risk. The company could have continued to trade without the exposure to the unprofitable sections of the business. QIL had already learned from their costly mistakes in the UK markets and would have been in a position to trade out of it. The profits wouldn't have been diverted of so the losses made on the UK market would have been to a certain extent reduced. They company was well run as the administrators have previously said and have well below average settlement figures due to their fast track approach. A point that the administrators refused to take into account when setting reserves.

i have not been involved in this debate and i have no axe to grind but i am in the insurance business and I'm afraid to say that nearly everything you have said above is incorrect.

it was not a question of people drifting away the book of business would have been sold and the company closed down.
the stuff about claims is nonsense Quinn were over exposed for years and everyone including the regulator new it. new European regulation coming in this Autumn called solvency 2 require much higher reserves. this has to  taken into account when considering the reserves Quinn would need. ( this will effect everyone expect to see premiums climb over the next 2 years).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 08, 2012, 02:13:49 PM
I was in the Insurance business for years myself guy so I'll agree to disagree with you.

QIL had been a profitable company, and it was it's punt into the UK market that caused the massive losses. Mostly due to indemnity insurance for Solicitors etc. But previous to administration QIL had already identified these areas as loss making and were in the process of moving away from these areas. Granted the business already established had to be covered and that was a costly mistake. But with these loss making areas closed the company still had the profitable areas to balance with some of the losses ( Unlike now were the profits of the successful areas are being ringfenced).

Lets be honest QIL wasn't the only insurance company in Ireland that wasn't meeting the targets on solvency. Nor was it the worst. New regulation coming in this Autumn has little effect over what happened 2 Plus years ago so no harm that's an irrelevance.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: guy crouchback on August 08, 2012, 02:26:42 PM
your right they were/are not the only ones with problems metting solvency targets, but solvency 2 has been flagged for years and companies have had to increase there levels year on year to be ready for 2012. so this would have been a factor with Quinn but no more a factor then with anyone else i suppose.

except it appears that there were all sorts of shenanigans going on within Quinn with insurance company money being used in other parts of the Quinn group.( or to support share deals or whatever it is) this is completely forbidden and a massive breach of fundamental insurance regulations.  there is no way the company could have been allow to go on as it was after this.

the argument that Quinn direct could have traded its way out of its UK losses in a collapsing irish economy is wishfull thing at best, once it emerged they did not have the adequate reserves they were fucked. their business model was a cowboy approach to underwriting for years and was based on making profits to hide the claims book losses.

in the insurance market you can get away with this for a while but in the end it will catch up with you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 08, 2012, 02:38:55 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on August 08, 2012, 02:26:42 PM
your right they were/are not the only ones with problems metting solvency targets, but solvency 2 has been flagged for years and companies have had to increase there levels year on year to be ready for 2012. so this would have been a factor with Quinn but no more a factor then with anyone else i suppose.

except it appears that there were all sorts of shenanigans going on within Quinn with insurance company money being used in other parts of the Quinn group.( or to support share deals or whatever it is) this is completely forbidden and a massive breach of fundamental insurance regulations.  there is no way the company could have been allow to go on as it was after this.
the argument that Quinn direct could have traded its way out of its UK losses in a collapsing irish economy is wishfull thing at best, once it emerged they did not have the adequate reserves they were fucked. their business model was a cowboy approach to underwriting for years and was based on making profits to hide the claims book losses.

in the insurance market you can get away with this for a while but in the end it will catch up with you.

Except that it was. QIL was fined in 2008 for the movement of money and SQ had to step down. But the company was allowed to continue on afterwards.
Again I'll disagree with you on the last paragraph. the trading out of the losses wouldn't have been limited to the ROI market. The UK and NI markets in vehicle insurance were still profitable (Hence the adnministrators opening up these markets again). I'll agree the big problem with QIL was that it grew too big too quickly in the UK and and suffered costs as it had over exposed itself to areas of risk, when slower entry would have prevented such losses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 08, 2012, 04:59:36 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on August 08, 2012, 01:49:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 08, 2012, 12:36:13 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 08, 2012, 12:04:08 PM
QuoteAgree totally. Liberty were given a ridiculous deal by Anglo. They allowed Liberty to take all the good points from the business without having to take any of the liabilities. Crazy crazy deal!!

Perhaps. But Liberty have the capital and the expertise to save the good parts of the business and the jobs. Had Quinn or Anglo remained in charge the good business would have drifted away as people would not have faith that they would be paid if they had a claim, so all that would have been left was the liabilities in any case.

Liberty put up 100M Euro total, that was it and got 49% of all the good parts of the business. I also disagree that people would have drifted away. There was never a risk of claims not being paid as virtually ever policy would have had to claim for that to be a risk. The company could have continued to trade without the exposure to the unprofitable sections of the business. QIL had already learned from their costly mistakes in the UK markets and would have been in a position to trade out of it. The profits wouldn't have been diverted of so the losses made on the UK market would have been to a certain extent reduced. They company was well run as the administrators have previously said and have well below average settlement figures due to their fast track approach. A point that the administrators refused to take into account when setting reserves.

i have not been involved in this debate and i have no axe to grind but i am in the insurance business and I'm afraid to say that nearly everything you have said above is incorrect.

it was not a question of people drifting away the book of business would have been sold and the company closed down.
the stuff about claims is nonsense Quinn were over exposed for years and everyone including the regulator new it. new European regulation coming in this Autumn called solvency 2 require much higher reserves. this has to  taken into account when considering the reserves Quinn would need. ( this will effect everyone expect to see premiums climb over the next 2 years).

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes the Regulator. He knew a lot didn't he. He was definitely on top of things wasn't he.

Like most people including myself you don't know the full details so quit speaking half truths as if they are fact.
Hindsight sure does get some people up on their high horses round here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 08, 2012, 05:39:38 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 08, 2012, 05:11:02 PM
Has any one answered the question on whether Quinn Insurance had an actuarial department or even one actuarist on board to calculate the risk or was the business run on a wing and a prayer as would appear to be the philosophy of the group?


How do you work that out ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 08, 2012, 08:36:13 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 08, 2012, 05:11:02 PM
Has any one answered the question on whether Quinn Insurance had an actuarial department or even one actuarist on board to calculate the risk or was the business run on a wing and a prayer as would appear to be the philosophy of the group?

I think he said in his interview with Vincent B last week that he never employed actuaries.

If a company that employed well over 1000 people for over a decade and treated their staff extremely well appears to be run on a wing and a prayer then maybe this wing and a prayer philosophy should be studied in greater detail.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 08, 2012, 09:06:42 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 07, 2012, 01:28:43 PM
Reading some of the papers as past while, some of the reporting has been akin to the red tops in England - rags like the Sun etc.

Who gives a shite how much Sean Quinn's wifes handbag cost, what make of jeans or pair of shoes she's wearing or how many bathrooms are in her apartment and what size a television she watches or what her parents worked at etc etc.


I thought Irish newspapers set themselves apart from the gutter type journalism that the English papers peddled, but obviously for the Quinns and a few others, they're going to make an exception.

When did you think that??! Imitators worse than the original, and not half as answerable
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 08, 2012, 09:11:23 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 08, 2012, 05:11:02 PM
Has any one answered the question on whether Quinn Insurance had an actuarial department or even one actuarist on board to calculate the risk or was the business run on a wing and a prayer as would appear to be the philosophy of the group?

Lol at your ignorance.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 09, 2012, 11:55:55 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 08, 2012, 05:11:02 PM
Has any one answered the question on whether Quinn Insurance had an actuarial department or even one actuarist on board to calculate the risk or was the business run on a wing and a prayer as would appear to be the philosophy of the group?

Quinns didn't have an inhouse actuarial department but sub-contracted it out.

The wing and a prayer comment is nonsense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 12, 2012, 11:04:11 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 12, 2012, 10:20:16 AM
Mr Woodhouse had been unaware of the comment and immediately informed other senior managers in the bank.

His daughter's Twitter account was disabled almost immediately. Mr Quinn, however, wrote a legal letter alleging he had been defamed. This was denied in legal correspondence and the matter appeared to have fizzled out until somehow it emerged again this weekend.

I wonder how. And woodhouse isnt vindictive.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 16, 2012, 09:57:04 AM
So much for Jim Fitzpatrick's "Facts". He got a right hole blown in them last night and looked completely stumped into the bargin. (Which I have to say I quite enjoyed  :D )
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on August 16, 2012, 10:09:31 AM
Never mind Jim Fitzpatrick or the Quinns, how the f**k does Sam Smyth get anywhere near hosting a TV show!!  It was he who started the confusion between the tower block in Moscow and the shopping centre in Kiev, which to be fair seemed to throw everyone a bit!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 16, 2012, 10:14:27 AM
Have to agree. He seemed that keen to try and direct the questions that he was tripping over himself and not really understanding what had just been said before moving on to another question.

He actually reminds me of Leslie Nielsen, the way he kinda bumbles on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 16, 2012, 11:14:30 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 16, 2012, 09:57:04 AM
So much for Jim Fitzpatrick's "Facts". He got a right hole blown in them last night and looked completely stumped into the bargin. (Which I have to say I quite enjoyed  :D )
What was the deal last night with Fitzpatrick?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 16, 2012, 11:35:23 AM
He had been focusing on the fact that the Quinns agreed that there was £450M of loans outstanding and that these weren't disputed. And that as these loans weren't in dispute they should had back the assets in Russia Moscow etc. It was then pointed out to him that the £450M loans were actually attached to other properties such as Hilton Prague, Slieve Russell, Ibis Sofia etc etc which Anglo had already taken control of and that none of the £450M dept was every against the properties that have been moved. These properties had been bought by the Quinns previously without any loans from Anglo. And their seizure was based on the personal guarnatees that Anglo got signed retrospectively. That's why the security on them wasn't as strong as other properties. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on August 16, 2012, 10:12:27 PM
What was that on Sars? Sounds like it might be worth an iplay...  :)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 16, 2012, 10:49:29 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on August 16, 2012, 10:12:27 PM
What was that on Sars? Sounds like it might be worth an iplay...  :)

Tonight on TV3 I think
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 17, 2012, 03:07:22 PM
IBRC, formerly Anglo Irish Bank, has moved to liquidate the Quinn Group Limited which was the holding company for Quinn family's business empire, RTÉ News has learned.


Documents filed in Company Registration Office show that Quinn Group Limited has been wound upThe development is a set back for the family which has taken legal action on the issue, writes Business Editor David Murphy.

They have argued that a share receiver should never have been appointed to the company in the first place by the bank.

Documents have been filed in the Company Registration Office showing the Quinn Group Limited has been wound up by the  receiver Kieran Wallace of KPMG

Mr Wallace replaced Seán Quinn's wife Patricia Quinn and his five adult children as shareholders in the group.

The development means the Quinn Group Limited will cease to exist. It had been used as a vehicle to hold companies engaged in packaging, glass, radiators and building materials.

But it is currently a shell company and the manufacturing companies are owned by IBRC and a consortium of banks.

"The Quinn Group Limited, the former holding company of the Quinn Group, entered into a members' voluntary liquidation on 24 July 2012," a statement from the Quinn Group said.

It said after the restructuring of the group a new legally ring fenced entity called Quinn Group Holdco Limited was created to hold the manufacturing businesses.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on August 17, 2012, 10:16:43 PM
What is the purpose in winding up the Group? At this point it is only a shell so it looks a bit vindictive.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on August 21, 2012, 09:24:31 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0821/attempt-to-have-ivan-yates-made-bankrupt-dismissed.html

Did Sean Quinn not also question the amount owed to Anglo/IBRC?

What was the difference between Yates and Quinn? Need I ask?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 21, 2012, 10:00:33 PM
Thought youse had all gone a bit quiet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 22, 2012, 09:25:18 AM
Quote from: boojangles on August 21, 2012, 09:24:31 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0821/attempt-to-have-ivan-yates-made-bankrupt-dismissed.html

Did Sean Quinn not also question the amount owed to Anglo/IBRC?

What was the difference between Yates and Quinn? Need I ask?

Seán Quinn may question the amount owed. The courts do not. As for the difference with Ivan Yates...

Quote'Vindictive' bank snubs Yates offer to give up family farm (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/vindictive-bank-snubs-yates-offer-to-give-up-family-farm-3207523.html)
By Donal O'Donovan
Wednesday August 22 2012

FORMER Fine Gael minister and broadcaster Ivan Yates accused AIB of "vindictiveness" after the bank rejected an offer to take his family farm to settle his debts.

Mr Yates made the claim in court papers submitted in an action by the bank to have the former Newstalk presenter declared bankrupt.

The court dismissed AIB's application yesterday, claiming there were questions over how much Mr Yates actually owes.

The decision does not free the former minister from his debts or mean he is no longer under threat of bankruptcy.

But it does buy him time if, as many predict, he decides to take advantage of more lenient bankruptcy laws in the UK, where he is now living.

AIB claims Mr Yates has failed to repay a personal debt of €3.69m.

But Mr Yates claims the bank is pursuing him through the courts -- rather than taking the family farm -- because of his 'Vindictive' bank snubbed Yates offer of family farm public condemnation of its Celtic Tiger lending practices and "unreasonable" attitude to broke borrowers.

Mr Yates has previously spoken about what he calls AIB's "impossible" attitude towards borrowers, including himself, since his Celtic Bookmakers chain of betting shops collapsed at the end of 2010.

In court papers seen by the Irish Independent, Mr Yates said the bank had made no effort to bankrupt people who owed multiples of his €3m debt.

The bank had only gone after him because he had spoken out publicly against the lender on the airwaves, he claimed.

The court papers reveal that Mr Yates offered to hand AIB the proceeds of a sale of his family farm on the outskirts of Enniscorthy, Co Wexford, once worth €25m, plus a share of his future income, if the bank agreed to settle its claim.

The bank turned down the offer, even though it is a better deal than can be recovered if he is made bankrupt, the court papers claim.

Much of the farm cannot be sold during the lifetime of Mr Yates' elderly mother. But local auctioneers say the 160-acre property with two houses would fetch around €2m in the current market.

In the High Court yesterday, Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne said AIB's bankruptcy summons was invalid, and dismissed the application to have Mr Yates declared bankrupt.

The judge said Mr Yates had raised "real and substantive issues" questioning the total amount he owed.

The question of how much Mr Yates really owes must be settled before any move can be made to bankrupt him, she said.

CHARGES

Lawyers for Mr Yates had argued that the amount being claimed by AIB was excessive, and included massive interest charges but did not take account of fees to receivers and lawyers acting for the bank.

That money should have been used to cut the debts, Mr Yates' lawyers argued.

Yesterday's decision buys Mr Yates valuable time if he wants to be declared bankrupt under the UK's softer insolvency rules.

Irish bankruptcy rules are the toughest in Europe. If he had been declared bankrupt here yesterday, Mr Yates would have faced 12 years working to repay his debts to the bank -- even after handing over everything he owns.

In the UK a bankrupt can be debt-free, and back earning, in little more than a year.

Any Irish person can use the softer UK system as long as they meet a number of conditions. These include convincing a UK court that they are insolvent, a UK resident, and that they have not already been declared bankrupt elsewhere.

Mr Yates is on record as saying that if a bankruptcy is inevitable he wants to go through the UK system. Court papers show he now lives in Swansea, Wales. UK courts look for six months' residency before accepting someone is really living in the UK, but Mr Yates only moved to Swansea in April.

AIB has been given until October to get its case together, for another round with Mr Yates. That may give the former minister enough time to be fully established in Swansea.

AIB declined to comment last night.

- Donal O'Donovan
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 22, 2012, 02:10:02 PM
The courts still have to rule on how much of the dept is legal Deiseach. Just a pity that case hasn't got priority like some others.

The problem with Fintan o Toole challenging the Quinns is that until the discovery of all the files are provided by anglo, which they will have to do for the Quinns cases next year, they don't have a lot to go on. That was the reason behind the military take-over of the premises that ensured they had no access to any computer systems or files. I don't hear Fintan clambering at Anglo's door asking for documents to prove the 455M is in relation to the Assets that the Quinns have moved. It would be as easy to ask Anglo to prove their side as it would be to ask the Quinns to prove their's. But then again O'Toole has always been a bit of a hypocrite. 


Kevin Myers Article

[supThe Media Smuggies are back in charge. The Smuggies are the do-nothing know-all pontificating left, for whom regulation is the answer to everything. And since they are within the state-supported academic-media consensus, it really doesn't matter to them that an over-regulated economy is a cadaver, for Smuggies rather approve of virtuous morgues.

Now, I don't understand NAMA, and I don't understand the bank guarantee, and I don't understand what Sean Quinn is alleged to have done. I really don't. If he has committed a crime, and is duly found guilty, then he should be punished. But I do know that throughout the boom times, if there was one person the Smuggies hated nearly as much as they loathed Michael O'Leary, it was Sean Quinn. All oh, those knowing smirks, when he said "done" instead of "did" -- because one of the characteristics of Smuggies is that they're usually snobs as well.

I interviewed Sean Quinn in his Cavan heartland 20 years ago. He had transformed an economic disaster-zone into a rural boom area. His huge hotel, plonked in the middle of nowhere, made no sense to anyone, save Sean Quinn. And it prospered, just as so much else he did, bringing jobs and hope to local communities. And how the Smuggies despised his successes. But of course, as the economy boomed, thanks to people like him and Michael O'Leary, the incomes of the Smuggies rose too: what impotent, Pharisaic fury that must have caused.

But now we have returned to the realm of righteous failure that is so beloved of the Smuggies, when moral lynch mobs rule, and all economic issues are "discussed" in shrieking headlines. Yet the Great Barrier Reef of the public service that the Celtic Tiger brought into existence remains, its salaries unrelated to any economic reality. The average public sector pay is €29 per hour. In the private sector, it is €19. Instead of the Government reducing pay in the public sector, it is merely cutting jobs, namely services to the very private sector whose taxes pay for those services in the first place. Meanwhile, annually granted incremental pay increases to the 400,000 individual employees in the public service continue, costing the State another €200m this year, easily exceeding the revenue from the household charge.

Lo! Behold, the shambling omnivore of the HSE. In 1998, it had 69,700 employees, with a budget of €4bn. By 2008, this leviathan had 110,000 employees and cost €13.5bn, 80pc in pay and pensions. So what on earth made Sean Quinn get involved in health-insurance, attached by the hip as it is to the HSE? For now, in the abyss of this recession, from Donegal to Limerick, 1,100 of HSE West's employees are off sick EVERY SINGLE DAY. Still, competition being the spice of life, I'm happy to report that the HSE is hosting a quite thrilling sickness contest. And so it's now neck and neck between Louth and Ennis hospitals, with both reporting that 20pc of their general support staff are sick every single day! And 10pc of their nurses are similarly absent, poor dears. However, it looks as if good old Ennis is edging ahead on goal-difference in this bedpan-premiership.

Lucky are the administrators who have to allocate nursing duties in these palaces of healing: and of course, a nurse who is allocated to a different ward from the one originally rostered is paid compensation for the "inconvenience". It's an ill wind. . .

Now, in all of Sean Quinn's empire, was there ever such levels of absenteeism? Of course not. Nowhere in the private sector -- which includes everyone who works in a shop, or in a factory, or a newspaper, or on a farm, or in an airline -- could survive such a thing.

Yet it is this very private sector -- earning on average one-third less than in the public sector -- which is subsidising such nonsense.

Needless to say, the private sector was effectively absent from the Croke Park deal, the great stitch-up that has created a hole in our finances which effortlessly matches the horror story of our bailed-out banks.

Of course, the Smuggies don't ever address the issue of the best-paid public service in the world, with the best-paid politicians, and the best-paid judges presiding over it all, because their preferred targets are, once again, the lazy caricatures of evil capitalists and wicked bankers.

Courage and enterprise -- the willingness to take risks and to invest -- are what made the Celtic Tiger, and Sean Quinn was one of the giants of that period because he exemplified those qualities. Now, I genuinely don't know what he did and he didn't do, but I do know this. To get out of the deep dark hole that we are in, we need more Sean Quinns. But our tragedy is that we have a government that is beholden to the very unions that protect the absentee staff of the HSE as meanwhile it sedulously courts the good opinion of the Media Smuggies.

God help us all.

- Kevin Myers

][/sup]
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on August 22, 2012, 05:23:00 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 22, 2012, 05:18:41 PM
When Kevin Meyers is your supporter you are in some rare company.

People in glasshouses . .
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 22, 2012, 07:27:26 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 22, 2012, 02:10:02 PM
The courts still have to rule on how much of the dept is legal Deiseach. Just a pity that case hasn't got priority like some others.

The problem with Fintan o Toole challenging the Quinns is that until the discovery of all the files are provided by anglo, which they will have to do for the Quinns cases next year, they don't have a lot to go on. That was the reason behind the military take-over of the premises that ensured they had no access to any computer systems or files. I don't hear Fintan clambering at Anglo's door asking for documents to prove the 455M is in relation to the Assets that the Quinns have moved. It would be as easy to ask Anglo to prove their side as it would be to ask the Quinns to prove their's. But then again O'Toole has always been a bit of a hypocrite. 


Kevin Myers Article

[supThe Media Smuggies are back in charge. The Smuggies are the do-nothing know-all pontificating left, for whom regulation is the answer to everything. And since they are within the state-supported academic-media consensus, it really doesn't matter to them that an over-regulated economy is a cadaver, for Smuggies rather approve of virtuous morgues.

Now, I don't understand NAMA, and I don't understand the bank guarantee, and I don't understand what Sean Quinn is alleged to have done. I really don't. If he has committed a crime, and is duly found guilty, then he should be punished. But I do know that throughout the boom times, if there was one person the Smuggies hated nearly as much as they loathed Michael O'Leary, it was Sean Quinn. All oh, those knowing smirks, when he said "done" instead of "did" -- because one of the characteristics of Smuggies is that they're usually snobs as well.

I interviewed Sean Quinn in his Cavan heartland 20 years ago. He had transformed an economic disaster-zone into a rural boom area. His huge hotel, plonked in the middle of nowhere, made no sense to anyone, save Sean Quinn. And it prospered, just as so much else he did, bringing jobs and hope to local communities. And how the Smuggies despised his successes. But of course, as the economy boomed, thanks to people like him and Michael O'Leary, the incomes of the Smuggies rose too: what impotent, Pharisaic fury that must have caused.

But now we have returned to the realm of righteous failure that is so beloved of the Smuggies, when moral lynch mobs rule, and all economic issues are "discussed" in shrieking headlines. Yet the Great Barrier Reef of the public service that the Celtic Tiger brought into existence remains, its salaries unrelated to any economic reality. The average public sector pay is €29 per hour. In the private sector, it is €19. Instead of the Government reducing pay in the public sector, it is merely cutting jobs, namely services to the very private sector whose taxes pay for those services in the first place. Meanwhile, annually granted incremental pay increases to the 400,000 individual employees in the public service continue, costing the State another €200m this year, easily exceeding the revenue from the household charge.

Lo! Behold, the shambling omnivore of the HSE. In 1998, it had 69,700 employees, with a budget of €4bn. By 2008, this leviathan had 110,000 employees and cost €13.5bn, 80pc in pay and pensions. So what on earth made Sean Quinn get involved in health-insurance, attached by the hip as it is to the HSE? For now, in the abyss of this recession, from Donegal to Limerick, 1,100 of HSE West's employees are off sick EVERY SINGLE DAY. Still, competition being the spice of life, I'm happy to report that the HSE is hosting a quite thrilling sickness contest. And so it's now neck and neck between Louth and Ennis hospitals, with both reporting that 20pc of their general support staff are sick every single day! And 10pc of their nurses are similarly absent, poor dears. However, it looks as if good old Ennis is edging ahead on goal-difference in this bedpan-premiership.

Lucky are the administrators who have to allocate nursing duties in these palaces of healing: and of course, a nurse who is allocated to a different ward from the one originally rostered is paid compensation for the "inconvenience". It's an ill wind. . .

Now, in all of Sean Quinn's empire, was there ever such levels of absenteeism? Of course not. Nowhere in the private sector -- which includes everyone who works in a shop, or in a factory, or a newspaper, or on a farm, or in an airline -- could survive such a thing.

Yet it is this very private sector -- earning on average one-third less than in the public sector -- which is subsidising such nonsense.

Needless to say, the private sector was effectively absent from the Croke Park deal, the great stitch-up that has created a hole in our finances which effortlessly matches the horror story of our bailed-out banks.

Of course, the Smuggies don't ever address the issue of the best-paid public service in the world, with the best-paid politicians, and the best-paid judges presiding over it all, because their preferred targets are, once again, the lazy caricatures of evil capitalists and wicked bankers.

Courage and enterprise -- the willingness to take risks and to invest -- are what made the Celtic Tiger, and Sean Quinn was one of the giants of that period because he exemplified those qualities. Now, I genuinely don't know what he did and he didn't do, but I do know this. To get out of the deep dark hole that we are in, we need more Sean Quinns. But our tragedy is that we have a government that is beholden to the very unions that protect the absentee staff of the HSE as meanwhile it sedulously courts the good opinion of the Media Smuggies.

God help us all.

- Kevin Myers

][/sup]
If those figures are genuine then they are shocking. I thought the civil service up here was bad! :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on August 22, 2012, 08:45:35 PM
Myers is a cruel, heartless apologist for a villainous plutocracy. After all the carnage wrought on this country by parasitic rent-seeking private individuals who rigged the rules of the game in their favour then dumped the cost of it on the 99%, the lesson he has learned is that we need more of the same. I suppose he owes it to Sir Anthony and Denis the robber baron for paying him to recycle the same half-dozen half-baked articles over and over again
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on August 22, 2012, 08:55:42 PM
Someone needs to tell Myarse that the HSE wasn't set up till the mid noughties by his employers' beloved Harney/Ahern crapbags.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 22, 2012, 09:26:08 PM
Anyone hear the Newstalk with both Aiofe and Fintan going at it hammer and tongs?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on August 23, 2012, 07:40:56 AM
QuoteAnyone hear the Newstalk with both Aiofe and Fintan going at it hammer and tongs?

Missed that - what programme was it on?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 23, 2012, 08:08:58 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 22, 2012, 09:26:08 PM
Anyone hear the Newstalk with both Aiofe and Fintan going at it hammer and tongs?

Who won ? That would have been good fun !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 23, 2012, 08:13:16 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 23, 2012, 08:08:58 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 22, 2012, 09:26:08 PM
Anyone hear the Newstalk with both Aiofe and Fintan going at it hammer and tongs?

Who won ? That would have been good fun !

Sorry Declan, was away last night.

Here's a link to an article which I think has the full recording ( Can't play it in work here to check!)

http://www.newstalk.ie/2012/programmes/all-programmes/the-right-hook/aoife-quinn-admits-quinn-family-have-no-pr-advisors/

I wouldn't say anyone won as such OM. But you could see both sides getting pretty fired up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on August 28, 2012, 09:08:31 PM
Does Target Express have any major ties with the Quinn Group / people associated with Quinn?

Something stinks about this too...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on August 28, 2012, 09:18:30 PM
Does Treasury Holdings have any links with Quinn?

Something stinks about this too....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 29, 2012, 12:48:43 PM
Any word of Sean Juinor getting out or Sean Senior going into jail ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 29, 2012, 12:56:36 PM
Appeal to be heard on 2 Oct. If not successful I think the 3 months is up around the middle of Oct, then I'd imagine he'll either get an extension or be let go. I'd imagine Sean Sr will be heading in at that stage too.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on August 29, 2012, 03:59:27 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 28, 2012, 09:08:31 PM
Does Target Express have any major ties with the Quinn Group / people associated with Quinn?

I suspect they might.
Quinn Snr was all over Shannonside News yesterday about the Target business.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 04, 2012, 01:04:30 PM
What's happening now lads ?


New material "appears" to have been produced on the bank's side.

How's the young fella's case going ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: naka on October 04, 2012, 01:55:46 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 28, 2012, 09:08:31 PM
Does Target Express have any major ties with the Quinn Group / people associated with Quinn?

Something stinks about this too...
please elaborate saamy
the irc put target under by freezing their accounts because they hadnt paid the tranche on time
cant see how quinn was involved in this
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 04, 2012, 02:18:42 PM
He wasn't. Quinn has /had no involvement with Target.

Court case not going well I'd imagine, going on what's coming out in the papers OM. Quinn side arguing that Jr was jailed on one count of contempt out of 30 charges, but that Judge Dunne had ruled that he wasn't to be released untill all 30 charges had been purged. Quinn's solicitors arguing this is legally and morally wrong as Jr had no connection to the other charges and therefore  in no position to purge them. However anglo have discovered new evidence that would connect Jr to additional contemp issues. Which they've requested and been allowed to present in this appeal.

Don't think he'll be getting out on the basis of the appeal.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 04, 2012, 04:41:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 04, 2012, 02:18:42 PM
He wasn't. Quinn has /had no involvement with Target.

Court case not going well I'd imagine, going on what's coming out in the papers OM. Quinn side arguing that Jr was jailed on one count of contempt out of 30 charges, but that Judge Dunne had ruled that he wasn't to be released untill all 30 charges had been purged. Quinn's solicitors arguing this is legally and morally wrong as Jr had no connection to the other charges and therefore  in no position to purge them. However anglo have discovered new evidence that would connect Jr to additional contemp issues. Which they've requested and been allowed to present in this appeal.

Don't think he'll be getting out on the basis of the appeal.

Is he not getting out shortly anyway ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 04, 2012, 04:45:14 PM
Depends the 3 months is up on the 19thth so may get out then. Or as it's undefined Judge Dunne may decide to impose an additional time frame.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 04, 2012, 04:52:19 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 04, 2012, 04:45:14 PM
Depends the 3 months is up on the 19thth so may get out then. Or as it's undefined Judge Dunne may decide to impose an additional time frame.

How long can they can keep him inside ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 04, 2012, 04:57:05 PM
Not sure OM. It's a civil offence and not criminal so I'd imagine they'll be limited in what they can impose, but don't honestly know what that is.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mentalman on October 04, 2012, 06:53:22 PM
He's inside until they purge their contempt, i.e. satisfy the trial judge that they are being upfront and honest in their dealings with with the court. In effect that's indefinite, which is highly highly peculiar, I don't think contempt of court has been used like this previously, well at least not in my time. I'm not surprised the Quinn's challenged it, as it is highly unusual, but the legal grounds of the challenge, other than it being contrary to natural justice, must be pretty shaky.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on October 04, 2012, 08:29:30 PM
Quote from: naka on October 04, 2012, 01:55:46 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on August 28, 2012, 09:08:31 PM
Does Target Express have any major ties with the Quinn Group / people associated with Quinn?

Something stinks about this too...
please elaborate saamy
the irc put target under by freezing their accounts because they hadnt paid the tranche on time
cant see how quinn was involved in this

Just speculation. Ton of bricks job on a going concern when there could have and maybe should have been other ways of saving a good company with a strong workforce both sides of the border.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 09, 2012, 12:23:26 PM
Is it known what is contained in the books of evidenct that were handed to the 3 boys yesterday in court ?.


FROM RTE website -

Former chairman and chief executive Seán FitzPatrick, 64, former finance director Willie McAteer, 61, and the bank's former managing director in Ireland Patrick Whelan, 50, appeared in court.

They have been charged with unlawfully helping a group of investors, including six members of the Quinn family, to buy shares in Anglo Irish Bank in 2008.

Mr FitzPatrick, of Camaderry, Whitshed Road, Greystones, Co Wicklow, Mr McAteer from Auburn Villas, Rathgar, Dublin, and Mr Whelan with an address at Rachra, Coast Road, Malahide, were presented with the documents outlining the State's case against them.

They are each charged with 16 offences under Section 60 of the Companies Act, accused of permitting Anglo Irish Bank to give financial assistance to Patricia Quinn, her five children and ten senior clients of the bank, who became known as the Maple Ten, to enable them to buy shares in the bank.

Three detectives from the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation, who had charged the three earlier this year, signed declarations this morning stating that the documents had been served.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 09, 2012, 03:50:06 PM
Not sure OM.

Primetime tomorrow night is on SQ, but I'd say it'll prob go very little into Anglo's dealings. That seems to have taken a back seat.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tommysmith on October 09, 2012, 04:00:22 PM
Below is part of the statment the GAA made on the last Quinn Rally.

Cavan County Board dont seem to have got the message as they were announcing the next Quinn Rally at the County finals on Sunday.

GAA distances itself from Quinn rally
QuoteThe GAA today said that its members are entitled to take positions in a personal capacity, but the GAA as a body would not become involved in the matter.

"The GAA is a non-party political organisation whose individual members may, of course, decide to take positions on a range of issues in accordance with their own personal views," said the GAA statement.

"As an Association, however, it would be entirely inappropriate for the GAA to become involved in matters outside its remit."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 09, 2012, 04:15:40 PM
Not really

However, in a surprise move, the GAA last night gave its blessing to the Fermanagh County Board for allowing GAA facilities to be used.


A spokesman at Croke Park said the announcement was "non-party political" and therefore not a breach of any GAA rules.


Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/gaa-backs-promotion-of-rally-for-quinns-16218162.html#ixzz28obbYyri


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 10, 2012, 04:35:21 PM
Lawyers for IBRC have told the Supreme Court they have 30 strands of circumstantial evidence to back their claim that Sean Quinn Junior breached a court order by facilitating a half a million dollar payment to a Ukranian employee.

Today is the last day of Sean Quinn Junior's appeal hearing against his three month sentence for contempt of court but no imminent decision is expected.

IBRC's legal team has been responding to questions by the judges as to whether a finding that he lied to the High Court is a sufficient substitute for evidence that he was involved in the payment to Larissa Puga following a meeting in Kiev last autumn.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 11, 2012, 10:31:41 AM
QuoteBank hasn't told court why Sean Quinn jnr is in jail, appeal hears

By TIm Healy
Thursday, 11 October 2012

The former Anglo Irish Bank has failed to tell the Irish Supreme Court exactly what Sean Quinn jnr is being held in prison for, his lawyers have claimed.

Anglo, now the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), has conceded there was "no direct evidence" to support a finding of contempt against him, Mr Quinn's lawyer Bill Shipsey also argued.

While just one finding of contempt was made against Mr Quinn, he was jailed for not reversing an entire asset-stripping scheme, Mr Shipsey said.

Paul Gallagher, counsel for the bank, contended "a chain of events" and 30 pieces of circumstantial evidence supported the Dublin High Court's finding that Mr Quinn participated in a $500,000 (£300,000) payment, on foot of which he was found in contempt.

The High Court was also entitled to jail him on July 20 after finding he had not complied with 30 coercive orders to reverse asset-stripping measures on grounds including that he was part of the Quinns' general asset stripping conspiracy, counsel said.

This was an "exceptional" case unlikely to be replicated and the courts must uphold constitutional values, Mr Gallagher urged.

The five-judge Supreme Court yesterday reserved to an unspecified date its judgment on Mr Quinn's appeal against being jailed following its finding of contempt and that he had not complied with 30 coercive orders to unwind measures to strip up to $430m (£270m) assets from the Quinn family's international property group.

In June, Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne ruled he was in contempt of court orders of 2011 restraining stripping of assets.

The matter is for review on October 19.


Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/bank-hasnt-told-court-why-sean-quinn-jnr-is-in-jail-appeal-hears-16222770.html#ixzz28ytbMVdV
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on October 11, 2012, 11:08:10 AM
Doubt cast over Quinn Insurance's profitability
In this section »
Custom House Capital clients win liquidator fees challengeEllison working the oracle with yacht raceCOLM KEENA, Public Affairs Correspondent

QUINN INSURANCE group may never have made a profit, an Oireachtas committee has been told.

The Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure Reform was told by administrator Michael McAteer yesterday that a review of reserves, initiated in July 2010, came to an initial finding just a month later that there had been under-reserving in 2009 to the tune of €400 million.

"The effect of this was to eliminate the profit reserves of the company and question whether the company had been historically profitable," Mr McAteer said.

The review was conducted by an actuarial firm, EMB, which confirmed its position by November 5th.

On the receipt of EMB's analysis, actuarial provider Milliman, which worked for Quinn Insurance Ltd, and PricewaterhouseCoopers, which audited the QIL accounts, "revisited their draft 2009 reserves and ultimately moved to levels in line with those arrived at by EMB".

Mr McAteer, who was appointed to QIL along with Paul McCann on March 30th, 2010, said they had come to the view that, prior to their appointment, there was a reluctance at Quinn Insurance to provide adequate reserves for large cases.

The State has, to date, paid €729 million into a court-administered fund to provide for losses at the company; a further €272 million is expected to be paid next year. After that, payments will drop to about €30 million a year.

At present, the worst case scenario for losses from the insurance group are €1.65 billion.

A levy imposed on all insurance policies bar health policies, in order to repay the State's investment, will probably have to run for 15 years.

Mr McAteer said the company was examining whether it can recoup some of the money lost by sueing those who provided professional advice to QIL.

An initial stage in the process of deciding whether to take such an action was likely to be completed by late November, and an outcome would be notified to the courts, he told the committee.

Independent TD Richard Boyd-Barrett said the primary responsibility for what had happened rested with the "cowboy capitalism that the Quinn family engaged in, motivated by greed".

When he said money was "essentially robbed out of the company", he was asked by committee chairman, Ciaran Lynch, who yesterday replaced former chairman, Alex White, to be more "prudential" with his language.

Mr Boyd-Barrett said it was "pretty criminal by any public standard" to declare profits when making losses and he asked how this was not spotted by the Central Bank at the time.

The head of general insurance supervision with the Central Bank, Domhnall Cullian, told the committee that an annual statement of actuarial opinion was required to be sent to the regulator each year by insurance companies. Each year unconditional reports were sent by Milliman, which was a respected firm.

Asked by Kieran O'Donnell if he was going to pursue €200 million that was gifted out of Quinn Insurance in 2008 to other companies owned by the Quinn family, Mr McAteer said there was no point in chasing money that the party on the other side couldn't repay.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on October 12, 2012, 11:23:01 AM
Quinn unapologetic in the FT for leaving the rest of us to pay his debts.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b4ba5912-0c76-11e2-a776-00144feabdc0.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2012, 12:05:40 PM
Sean Quinn didn't move the debt onto the tax payers so why would he apologise for it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: IolarCoisCuain on October 12, 2012, 12:10:27 PM
Can someone paste that FT piece here? Not everyone might have a subscription.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2012, 12:15:54 PM
I think this is the one.

Quote

Paint peeling off the wall in a corner of Sean Quinn's small office in a half-deserted industrial estate in Derrylin, Northern Ireland, illustrates how far Ireland's former richest man has fallen.

Three years ago, the "Mighty Quinn" controlled a $6bn conglomerate selling everything from cement to insurance and enjoyed all the trappings of wealth, including private jets and helicopters. Today, the 66-year-old entrepreneur is bankrupt and has been evicted from the nearby headquarters of the Quinn Group, the company he founded on his family's farm in 1973 with a £100 loan.


This month, Mr Quinn could join his only son in a Dublin jail because of his involvement in an elaborate scheme to put €500m of property assets beyond the reach of Anglo Irish Bank, the state-owned lender at the centre of Ireland's financial crisis.

Mr Quinn now accuses Anglo Irish of conducting a vendetta against him and insists he has become a scapegoat. He sees his potential imprisonment as an attempt by Ireland's authorities to close a chapter without tackling deeper failings in Anglo Irish and the broader establishment.

"The biggest disgrace about all this is they have my son in jail and me ready to go to it for taking assets which we believe then and now are ours," he argues with fists clenched.

The rise and fall of Mr Quinn, who has been found guilty of contempt of court and awaits sentencing on October 19, has come to epitomise the malaise at the heart of the Celtic Tiger. Only this week, Irish newspapers discovered €100,000 was lavished on a wedding cake for his daughter Ciara in 2007. The tale of greed, hubris and illegality cuts to the heart of many of the problems that propelled Dublin to the frontline of the crisis that has rocked the eurozone.

Most crucially, the Quinn case has prompted Ireland to bring in foreigners to clean up financial institutions in a country where family ties and connections are passports to success in both business and politics. The details of his complex financial transactions are a case study in the sort of overleveraged risk-taking and speculation that lay at the heart of the global financial meltdown.

But the international resonance of Mr Quinn's financial alchemy seems a world away from the winding roads of counties Cavan and Fermanagh, known as "Quinn Country". Few places better exemplify the fierce defence of local heroes that pervade Irish life. Messages of support are plastered on the lampposts. "Bullies beware! Keep Going Sean the truth is coming", says one poster. "Who bought the Irish media?" asks another.

Over a lunch of roast beef and mashed potatoes in Blakes pub in Derrylin, it is clear many still idolise Mr Quinn, who created thousands of jobs in a desperately poor area during the dark days of the 1970s and 1980s when sectarian violence convulsed Northern Ireland. His Slieve Russell hotel has been a keystone of local tourism.


A battle to recoup assets abroad

Anglo Irish Bank's pursuit of the Quinn Group's €500m property portfolio has all the makings of a spy thriller involving diplomacy, secret videotapes and legal cases in exotic locations.

Bank documents show 14 properties in Ukraine, Russia and India with a last known security value of almost $500m remain outside of the bank's control. These include the $80m Ukrainia shopping mall in Kiev, the $180m Kutuzoff tower in Moscow and the $26m Q City office development in Hyderabad. Annual rent rolls running to tens of millions of euros are said to be unaccounted for. Anglo Irish claims this money was transferred offshore and that the Quinns still control some of the assets.


"It's good to see you looking well Sean," says one elderly man. Two priests come over to say goodbye as they leave the pub and when Mr Quinn gets up to go there is a chorus of goodwill and handshakes all round.

Such was the depth of feeling for Mr Quinn when he was ousted from the Quinn Group in April 2011 that there was a spate of vandalism against company property. The car of the incoming chief executive was firebombed.

"There was a lot of bad feeling when the Quinn group was taken over. The word used here is that it was a military coup," says Bernie Maguire, Mr Quinn's sister. "People here are 99.9 per cent behind the Quinns."

In July, when his son was jailed for contempt of court for breaking court orders not to tamper with the property assets, 4,000 people rallied in support of the Quinn family in his home town of Ballyconnell, just across the border in the Irish Republic. A second rally is planned on Sunday.

However, elsewhere in Ireland, Mr Quinn is viewed as an arch-villain. People facing severe budget cuts and tax rises hold him, and those like him, directly responsible for their pain.

Critics accuse Mr Quinn of destabilising Ireland's financial system through anonymous share buying in Anglo Irish, a bank that funnelled tens of billions of euros to property developers. When that bubble burst Anglo Irish was nationalised at a cost of €28bn to taxpayers, eventually forcing Dublin into an international bailout. Mr Quinn is accused by his detractors of costing taxpayers up to €1.6bn from the collapse of Quinn Insurance and €2.8bn from unpaid debts to Anglo Irish.

In his defence, Mr Quinn depicts himself as misguided and thinks blame should be placed more squarely on Anglo Irish for extending loans to his increasingly distressed scheme.

"Sean Quinn has painted himself as a kind of King Lear figure – a man more sinned against than sinning," says Simon Carswell, author of Anglo Republic: Inside The Bank That Broke Ireland. "He is certainly a tragic figure of Shakespearean proportions. He let greed cloud his judgment and gambled away his fortune. But it is ultimately the Irish public who will have to pay his debts," he says.


Mr Quinn's problems began in 2007 when he began betting on the share price of Anglo Irish. Using "contracts for difference", an anonymous form of investment that allows the holder to bet on price movements without buying the shares outright, he amassed a CFD-based holding in Anglo of more than 25 per cent.

He initially funded the bets with a €750m loan from the Quinn Group. When the bank's share price collapsed, Anglo Irish advanced loans to cover the group's CFD position and bolster its own share price. But when the Irish financial crisis intensified during 2009, the bank was nationalised exposing Quinn and ultimately Irish taxpayers to huge losses.

"It was never our intention to own 25 per cent of the bank but as it got cheaper we just seemed to buy more and we got sucked in," Mr Quinn says. His decision in 2002 to transfer ownership of the Quinn Group to his five adult children placed his family at the centre of the crisis.

The Quinns are punching back against Anglo Irish, saying €2.34bn of the €2.8bn loans given to them are "tainted with illegality". They argue those loans were intended to manipulate the market and are therefore not enforceable. The Quinns' action against the bank, if it gets to trial, could pose further embarrassing questions about how much regulators and politicians knew about what was going on at Anglo Irish.

Mr Quinn notes three former Anglo Irish executives, including Sean FitzPatrick, former chairman, were charged in relation to the share support scheme but are free on bail pending trial while his son, also Sean, is in prison.

Elaine Byrne, an expert on corruption for the European Commission, says the parallels between the collapse of Quinn's empire and Anglo Irish Bank reveal Ireland's weaknesses in regulation and governance. "Both companies involved chieftains at the centre of the business who were shown deference and trust by others in the company. They were very personalised businesses where the normal rules of governance did not seem to apply," she says.

When the financial crisis struck, Dublin reformed its regulatory system. It merged the financial regulatory authority with the central bank in 2010 and boosted staff by a third. It appointed foreigners to key posts. Matthew Elderfield, a Briton, became the new financial regulator in October 2009 and Mike Aynsley, an Australian, was appointed chief executive of Anglo Irish in September 2009.

"A whole new brigade came into Ireland," says Mr Quinn, who maintains that the authorities aimed to strip him of his company and remove the threat to the state posed by his family's legal action against the bank.

The bank and the financial regulator deny this, saying they protected taxpayers. "Sean Quinn is being unreasonable in his assessment of the bank's intentions," says Mr Aynsley of Anglo Irish, which was recently rebranded Irish Bank Resolution Corp. "He has chosen to disregard the court process and is progressing down a path of duplicitous action," he adds, arguing Mr Quinn has misappropriated "what are in effect state assets".

In March 2010, Mr Elderfield appointed administrators to Quinn Insurance, arguing it had failed to make adequate provision for its debts. In 2008, Mr Quinn was thrown off the board of Quinn Insurance and fined by the regulator for taking €288m in loans from the company to help pay for Anglo Irish shares.

Mr Quinn acknowledges this was a mistake but fiercely disputes Mr Elderfield's assessment that the company was underprovisioned. However, in July, Grant Thornton, the administrator, estimated the final bill to taxpayers could reach €1.6bn owing to losses at the company's UK operation.

A year later, Mr Quinn lost control of the wider Quinn Group as well, in effect ending his 38-year connection with the company. "Anglo were the most hated institution in the history of the state and they have very carefully turned that around and now it is Sean Quinn and his family that are the most hated," says Mr Quinn. "They have played a tremendous game here and are running the news seven nights a week. And all of a sudden they are the good guys."

Enlisting the help of a corporate restructuring firm based in Dubai, the Quinns devised a strategy to move the Quinn Group's €500m property portfolio out of reach of the bank. They transferred control of properties in Ukraine, Russia and India to offshore companies stretching from Belize to the British Virgin Islands.

Mr Quinn admits taking part in this scheme, saying the security Anglo Irish claims it has on the properties is not valid. But he says the family stopped when Anglo Irish secured a court injunction in June 2011 ordering them to cease their activities.

The Dublin High Court disagreed, ruling in June that three of the Quinns were in contempt of court for continuing to conduct transactions related to the foreign properties. The judge said they acted "as far removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be".

Sean Quinn Jr is appealing against his jail sentence. His father was allowed three months to purge his contempt by helping Anglo Irish recover the property assets. Peter Darragh Quinn, Sean Quinn Sr's nephew, an accountant, has fled to Northern Ireland, from where he cannot be extradited on a civil conviction.

"I felt very disappointed that I had to be put in a position that I had to dissipate assets ... that is not in my DNA," says Mr Quinn, who insists he deserves public gratitude. "There are few companies in the history of the state that have contributed more to the Irish government, taxpayer and people than I have," he says. "Overall, I don't think that I owe the Irish taxpayer any apology."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on October 12, 2012, 01:04:10 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 12, 2012, 12:15:54 PM
I think this is the one.

Quote

Mr Quinn, who insists he deserves public gratitude. "There are few companies in the history of the state that have contributed more to the Irish government, taxpayer and people than I have," he says. "Overall, I don't think that I owe the Irish taxpayer any apology."

Is this what might become known in legal circles as the Armstrong-Savile defence...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on October 12, 2012, 10:13:15 PM
Perhaps, if it comes out that the authorities forced armstrong to take the drugs, or savile to molest the children. Quinn wasnt responsible for his debts being put on the taxpayer.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on October 12, 2012, 10:24:51 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 12, 2012, 10:13:15 PM
Perhaps, if it comes out that the authorities forced armstrong to take the drugs, or savile to molest the children. Quinn wasnt responsible for his debts being put on the taxpayer.

Whatever about the Anglo debt, the levy on every home and car insurance policy in Ireland for the next few decades is down to Seán Quinn and his sneering gombeen man contempt for the requirements of an insurance company. Even some wedding cake would be nice.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2012, 10:52:20 PM
Aye sure it had nothing to do with the splitting the company in two. To ensure you were fit to bring in money from both sides. I'm sure most companies would like to be able to seperate the unprofitable sections of the business and get the tax payers to pay for it rather than coming out of the profits.

And you're quite right the cake is the big story....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on October 12, 2012, 11:01:39 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 12, 2012, 10:24:51 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 12, 2012, 10:13:15 PM
Perhaps, if it comes out that the authorities forced armstrong to take the drugs, or savile to molest the children. Quinn wasnt responsible for his debts being put on the taxpayer.

Whatever about the Anglo debt, the levy on every home and car insurance policy in Ireland for the next few decades is down to Seán Quinn and his sneering gombeen man contempt for the requirements of an insurance company. Even some wedding cake would be nice.

You must love some of Michael O'Leary's business policies!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 10:24:39 AM
QuoteTHE Quinn family has issued a "declaration of war" on Anglo Irish Bank and will win that war, a daughter of fallen tycoon Sean Quinn has said.

Addressing a crowd of more than 7,000 supporters in Ballyconnell, Co Cavan, Ciara Quinn said her family was confident of winning its case against the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation.

Tyrone GAA manager Mickey Harte, Donegal's assistant manager Rory Gallagher as well as business people from north and south were among the speakers at the event organised just days before Mr Quinn could be jailed for contempt of court.

They heard Ciara Quinn claim that the companies once owned by her and her family were being run down, with jobs losses going unreported.

"It is heartbreaking for me and my family to watch the destruction of our companies," she said, as her father nodded in agreement.

"We were a very private, hard-working family who never courted media attention but our lives have been torn apart as has our life's work.

"Anglo is now spending millions of euro of taxpayers' money on a PR campaign against us."

But Ciara Quinn insisted the family would fight Anglo in the courts and would win. "Some day our war with Anglo with be over, and make no mistake about it for this is a war.

Cheers

"We will not go quietly into the night, we will go back to work, we will be back in business, we will create jobs again and we will succeed," she added.

Mickey Harte, in a reference to media coverage of his appearance at the last Quinn rally, said he had travelled to last night's event for two reasons. "One of those was to prove to myself that I'm not delusional," he said to loud cheers. "I've come here of my own free will because the Quinn family deserve our support."

All-Ireland winning coach Mr Gallagher told the crowd he is a close friend of Sean Quinn Jnr, having played gaelic football with him, adding: "The Quinn family are honest people, they are ordinary people and they are loyal people."

Mr Quinn's brother Peter Quinn launched a venomous attack on the media, calling them "b**tards" in a speech listing the family's grievances against Anglo and the State.

- Greg Harkin

Irish Independent

 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 15, 2012, 10:33:47 AM
Some tough talking there.


What next ? Election to the Dail ?.

May as well.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 10:48:48 AM
That was actually mentioned yesterday, but I can't see it. I believe they will continue to put pressure on the politicians to try and get answers for the questions that they were asking? They're sending an email out to all TD's this week with a list of questions that they are looking to get answered. But I'm sure the response to that will be the sum of sweet FA.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on October 15, 2012, 11:00:54 AM
(http://www.irishtimes.com/homepage/images/1224325273604.jpg?ts=1350295085)

You'd nearly feel sorry for him
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 11:06:46 AM
Nice.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on October 15, 2012, 11:11:32 AM
There are a few rules of gambling that SQ should acknowledge.

1. Don't gamble (a) with other people's money or (b) with money you can't afford to lose.
2. Don't rig the game in your own favour and then complain that you don't get paid out when you're caught.
3. When you lose, don't whinge. You're a gambler, remember? If you ruled out the possibility of losing, you didn't understand the game.
4. Just for emphasis, there's nothing more contemptible than a whinging loser. A whinging loser who's been cheating is even worse.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 11:23:52 AM
Quote from: Hardy on October 15, 2012, 11:11:32 AM
There are a few rules of gambling that SQ should acknowledge.

1. Don't gamble (a) with other people's money or (b) with money you can't afford to lose.
2. Don't rig the game in your own favour and then complain that you don't get paid out when you're caught.3. When you lose, don't whinge. You're a gambler, remember? If you ruled out the possibility of losing, you didn't understand the game.
4. Just for emphasis, there's nothing more contemptible than a whinging loser. A whinging loser who's been cheating is even worse.

Maybe you should direct that one at Anglo Hardy, considering it was them them that rigged the game with false accounting and representation of their balance sheets.

And imagine a gambler complaining about a casino that was stacking the cards and rigging the games. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 11:49:06 AM
Nor does it mean that if you take a gamble on a bluechip company that you no longer have any rights or that you should keep quiet about transgressions against you. If anglo acted corruptly in their dealings with the Quinns, they should be held to task for that. The fact that Anglo is now the state doesn't mean that they should be given free reign to do as they like.

QIL wasn't the only insurance company in Ireland that wasn't following the rules of law regarding prudential regulations, nor were they the worst.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on October 15, 2012, 11:49:49 AM
The fact that Anglo was hooky doesn't absolve all other parties to the debacle from accusations of hookery, SS. Quinn tried to rig the market and take an unfair advantage against his competitors and the industry at large by treating the prudential regulations with contempt and running an insurance company like a bookie's shop. That's gambling with other people's money - first his competitors', and now that of all purchasers of insurance, who have ended up paying for it for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on October 15, 2012, 11:54:05 AM
Sorry, SS - I edited an error and re-posted, so the post you're  responding to now appears after yours.

Anyway, do you have the details on the other insurance companies that were flouting the prudential requirements, particularly those that were worse than Quinn? (Not that that makes any difference to the substance of my point.)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 11:54:23 AM
Did our posts just do a switch?

* Ahhh I see. was wondering what the feck was going on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on October 15, 2012, 11:54:46 AM
And again!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 11:58:42 AM
VHI had much lower Solvency rates than QIL and were making less of an attempt at getting to the required solvency rates. (QIL had increased it's CASH reserve by £30M in the first 3 months of 2010)

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on October 15, 2012, 12:02:09 PM
Of course, VHI got/gets away with murder.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: IolarCoisCuain on October 15, 2012, 12:20:13 PM
Thanks for posting that for me Supersarsfields. I appreciate. Damned if I know what to make of it though. As my father used to say, there could be a pair of them in it.

That said, I do think that the Quinns are being roasted by the media. Financial regulations aren't very sexy. The once mighty crashing and burning make for better telly, but that doesn't make the coverage right.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 12:39:48 PM
The problem with the media is that to write against Anglo now is to write against the state. So it's the easier and safer way to just focus on the Quinn side without delving any deeper into Anglo's actions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on October 15, 2012, 03:26:57 PM
So the poor oul innocent Quinns were walking along one day when Seanie Fitzpatrick jumped out of the bushes , put a gun to their heads and made them sign some papers which they couldn't see or know what was on them.
Then they all went broke and spent the rest of their days getting paid € millions from some Russian Companies.

Ahhhhh the pooor oul harmless devileens  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Meanwhile the 4.4m bol*****s who live in the 26 cos have to pay for it all.
That's the real  :'(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
Do you believe that because SQ took a gamble on Anglo (A supposedly regulated bluechip company who were fiddling the books) that any crimes against the Quinns are irrelevant and should not be punished?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on October 15, 2012, 04:24:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 15, 2012, 03:26:57 PM
So the poor oul innocent Quinns were walking along one day when Seanie Fitzpatrick jumped out of the bushes , put a gun to their heads and made them sign some papers which they couldn't see or know what was on them.
Then they all went broke and spent the rest of their days getting paid € millions from some Russian Companies.

Ahhhhh the pooor oul harmless devileens  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Meanwhile the 4.4m bol*****s who live in the 26 cos have to pay for it all.
That's the real  :'(

I think it's fair to say that the taxpayer part is neither here nor there. It wasn't Seán Quinn's fault that the taxpayer was landed with the bill for Anglo. However, he still would have been asked to account for the money. He still would have lost the company because he had run it incompetently and had to file for bankruptcy. He still would have ended up in court and be expected to answer for hundreds of millions of euro worth of debts that even he hasn't argued were offered under false pretences. And he still would have tried to stash the money away in a manner that would have made Jean-Claude Duvalier blush. Once upon a time, Seán Quinn was honest and successful. Now, he's neither.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oisinog on October 15, 2012, 04:34:31 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 15, 2012, 04:24:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 15, 2012, 03:26:57 PM
So the poor oul innocent Quinns were walking along one day when Seanie Fitzpatrick jumped out of the bushes , put a gun to their heads and made them sign some papers which they couldn't see or know what was on them.
Then they all went broke and spent the rest of their days getting paid € millions from some Russian Companies.

Ahhhhh the pooor oul harmless devileens  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Meanwhile the 4.4m bol*****s who live in the 26 cos have to pay for it all.
That's the real  :'(

I think it's fair to say that the taxpayer part is neither here nor there. It wasn't Seán Quinn's fault that the taxpayer was landed with the bill for Anglo. However, he still would have been asked to account for the money. He still would have lost the company because he had run it incompetently and had to file for bankruptcy. He still would have ended up in court and be expected to answer for hundreds of millions of euro worth of debts that even he hasn't argued were offered under false pretences. And he still would have tried to stash the money away in a manner that would have made Jean-Claude Duvalier blush. Once upon a time, Seán Quinn was honest and successful. Now, he's neither.

It was Anglo who forced him into bankruptcy after rejecting Sean Quinns repayment plan. If Anglo had accepted it there is a strong chance that some of this loan would be paid back and Sean Quinn would still be running his empire
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on October 15, 2012, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: oisinog on October 15, 2012, 04:34:31 PM
It was Anglo who forced him into bankruptcy after rejecting Sean Quinns repayment plan. If Anglo had accepted it there is a strong chance that some of this loan would be paid back and Sean Quinn would still be running his empire

So you think Seán Quinn ran the company well, do you? The man who ran the company's reserves into the ground in the good times is the man who would have traded his way out of trouble in a contracting market. Give us a break.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 05:02:13 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 15, 2012, 04:24:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 15, 2012, 03:26:57 PM
So the poor oul innocent Quinns were walking along one day when Seanie Fitzpatrick jumped out of the bushes , put a gun to their heads and made them sign some papers which they couldn't see or know what was on them.
Then they all went broke and spent the rest of their days getting paid € millions from some Russian Companies.

Ahhhhh the pooor oul harmless devileens  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Meanwhile the 4.4m bol*****s who live in the 26 cos have to pay for it all.
That's the real  :'(

I think it's fair to say that the taxpayer part is neither here nor there. It wasn't Seán Quinn's fault that the taxpayer was landed with the bill for Anglo. However, he still would have been asked to account for the money. He still would have lost the company because he had run it incompetently and had to file for bankruptcy. He still would have ended up in court and be expected to answer for hundreds of millions of euro worth of debts that even he hasn't argued were offered under false pretences. And he still would have tried to stash the money away in a manner that would have made Jean-Claude Duvalier blush. Once upon a time, Seán Quinn was honest and successful. Now, he's neither.

SQ would have been bankrupt no doubt. But the company wouldn't have been. That's the issue. The Company was in the childrens name and had been since 2002. Any debt that SQ had gotten himself into couldn't be attached to the company as he wasn't the owner of it. However Anglo pumped money into the company and got the children to sign restrospective documents saying that the loans were for the purpuse of buying property rather than covering loses in shares. The current management of IBRC then tried to get the children to sign retrospective loan agreements to confirm that they had been given full legal advise when signing the other documents. (I wonder will action be taken against the current management of IBRC for this?  ::) ) which they declined. This means Anglo/ Ibrc don't have the legal documents in place to enforce the personal guarantees and is why the Quinns can contest the validity of the loans.

Quote from: deiseach on October 15, 2012, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: oisinog on October 15, 2012, 04:34:31 PM
It was Anglo who forced him into bankruptcy after rejecting Sean Quinns repayment plan. If Anglo had accepted it there is a strong chance that some of this loan would be paid back and Sean Quinn would still be running his empire

So you think Seán Quinn ran the company well, do you? The man who ran the company's reserves into the ground in the good times is the man who would have traded his way out of trouble in a contracting market. Give us a break.


The Quinns are disputing the call on the Insurance fund as well Deiseach. Funny how after being in place for a year the administrators still said that the company was "profitable" but now suddenly we have a call apon the IF. Why are they so against a public enquiry into the QIL administration if their figures tie up? I have to say I'd put more faith into the Quinns trading themselves out of things than I would of having Anglo running things. They've now gotten rid of 17 senior managers since SQ's time. As mentioned yesterday O Brien (Chairman ofthe Group) had a page up online last year that said that the group would make £100M profit. Within months it was down and he was explaining to the bondholders why he wouldn't hit the target of £100M. He the went back to say that he wouldn't even hit the revised target of £80M. They are making a mess of it because they have gotten rid of the managers who built the company up from the ground and replacing them with bankers and accountants who have no commercial experience. How they can throw away (And when I say throw away I mean pay hundred of thousands of pounds to individuals in pay offs) managers who had maybe 20-30 years experience in the industry.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hereiam on October 15, 2012, 05:20:48 PM
Sean Quinn's repayment plan would not have been worth the paper it was wrote on. If they had agreed to this SQ would have had more time to stash away the millions. They had to act quick. I agree the Sean Quinn started out with good intentions but he was blinded by the greed. It is sad what has happened but it is of his own doing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on October 15, 2012, 05:21:46 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 05:02:13 PM
SQ would have been bankrupt no doubt. But the company wouldn't have been. That's the issue. The Company was in the childrens name and had been since 2002. Any debt that SQ had gotten himself into couldn't be attached to the company as he wasn't the owner of it. However Anglo pumped money into the company and got the children to sign restrospective documents saying that the loans were for the purpuse of buying property rather than covering loses in shares. The current management of IBRC then tried to get the children to sign retrospective loan agreements to confirm that they had been given full legal advise when signing the other documents. (I wonder will action be taken against the current management of IBRC for this?  ::) ) which they declined. This means Anglo/ Ibrc don't have the legal documents in place to enforce the personal guarantees and is why the Quinns can contest the validity of the loans.

Hang on a sec. The money Anglo loaned to Quinn was because he had taken a gamble on Anglo's share price. Are the Quinns saying they had no idea why Anglo were giving them all this money? Either they knew, in which case they were co-conspirators, or they didn't know, in which case they were incompetent beyond words. Either way, they shouldn't have been running such a vital company.

Quote from: deiseach on October 15, 2012, 04:43:40 PM
The Quinns are disputing the call on the Insurance fund as well Deiseach. Funny how after being in place for a year the administrators still said that the company was "profitable" but now suddenly we have a call apon the IF. Why are they so against a public enquiry into the QIL administration if their figures tie up? I have to say I'd put more faith into the Quinns trading themselves out of things than I would of having Anglo running things. They've now gotten rid of 17 senior managers since SQ's time. As mentioned yesterday O Brien (Chairman ofthe Group) had a page up online last year that said that the group would make £100M profit. Within months it was down and he was explaining to the bondholders why he wouldn't hit the target of £100M. He the went back to say that he wouldn't even hit the revised target of £80M. They are making a mess of it because they have gotten rid of the managers who built the company up from the ground and replacing them with bankers and accountants who have no commercial experience. How they can throw away (And when I say throw away I mean pay hundred of thousands of pounds to individuals in pay offs) managers who had maybe 20-30 years experience in the industry.

Why do you have faith that Seán Quinn would have done a better job? Anyone who read the FT interview would see a man who hadn't a clue. I didn't know how much I was being paid. It's all in the accounts, you'd better ask them. You talk about these experienced managers who did such a brilliant job. Can you tell me one thing that has never gone away: did Quinn Insurance employ an actuary?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 06:35:49 PM
That's the point, the loans were organised by SQ and Anglo. The money was lent to cover SQ's gamble and was only retrospectively attached to the children. The details of how Anglo went about getting the children to sign will come out in the court cases.
Why do I have faith that SQ would do it? Well he had 38 years experience and was the most successful businessman in Ireland. Other than that I have no reason.
The details about the actuary has been answered previously a couple of times on this thread. They outsourced their actuary requirements to a leading actuary company. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 07:00:06 PM
Because he ran the Quinn Group from nothing into the largest Irish company operating. He invested in a bluechip company that had fiddled it's book to make it look more profitable than it was. A fact that most here don't seem to want to debate when discussing his gamble.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 07:16:40 PM
Course he does. Nowhere have I ever said that SQ is free from blame. In fact he may have criminal charges to answer for. But that doesn't automatically mean he loses all rights. And that others who broke the law and acted against him or his family should be given a free reign to do as they please.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 08:03:40 PM
And wat about the current management who seem to be working with the state's protection to inforce loans that haven't been proven in court yet?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 15, 2012, 08:29:37 PM
Another telling facet of how Quinn Insurace was run was a comment that I heard recently from an employee of one of the big Belfast insurance brokers.

He said that he was not aware of a single person who was employed at a senior level in the insurance industry in Northern Ireland that went to QIL.  That is startling and gives more credence to the fact that Quinn Insurance wasn't ran like, erm...., an insurance company.

His point is that; either QIL didn't want to recruit people experienced in the industry, or that senior people wouldn't go to QIL.  Either way its astounding.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: CiKe on October 15, 2012, 10:17:22 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 15, 2012, 06:35:49 PM
That's the point, the loans were organised by SQ and Anglo. The money was lent to cover SQ's gamble and was only retrospectively attached to the children. The details of how Anglo went about getting the children to sign will come out in the court cases.
Why do I have faith that SQ would do it? Well he had 38 years experience and was the most successful businessman in Ireland. Other than that I have no reason.
The details about the actuary has been answered previously a couple of times on this thread. They outsourced their actuary requirements to a leading actuary company.

Any other insurance companies do that? Well run ones I mean. Without knowing too much about the insurance industry I'd have thought that actuaries were intimately involved in the ALM side of things - seems beyond stupid to have this outsourced.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Pangurban on October 16, 2012, 12:40:33 AM
The last thing the Irish political and media establishments want is a proper enquiry into this whole affair, as it would reveal mind boggling levels of incompetence and downright corruption within both establishments. The Irish Media are running away from their proper role, and refusing to conduct any serious investigate journalism, fearing that big advertisers with vested interests in concealing the truth, would withdraw their accounts. Instead they indulge in vilification of the Quinns, a safe,populist and profitable course. Corrupt institutions and a tame press in search of a fall guy, will never bring justice or truth. This will only be resolved in the European Court of Justice, where it is destined to eventually end up
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on October 16, 2012, 07:42:47 AM
Media the new villains as Quinns change tack

In the whipping up of a persecution complex, marchers were asked to be foolish enough to buy a fresh conspiracy, writes FINTAN O'TOOLE

WITH SO many big lies abounding, the small ones perhaps hardly matter. But since one of the lies at the Quinn family rally in Ballyconnell on Sunday evening concerns this column, it cannot go unchecked.

The Quinns' "war" (Ciara Quinn's word) to hold on to half a billion euro of public assets involves, as the courts have found, the forgery of documents (by backdating contracts), attempted destruction of records and the giving, under oath, of evidence that could not be true.

But a secondary strategy is the whipping up of a persecution complex. This is a pretty daring idea – to be successful, you need to persuade people that the stripping of public assets is a heroic communal endeavour. Not only do you have to convince them that you're a victim – you have to convince them that they're victims too. You have to tell them that they too are being persecuted.

But who's doing the persecuting? Who's running the conspiracy? At the previous Quinn rally, the finger was pointed largely at the courts. Perhaps because various Quinn cases are now back before the courts, this was evidently thought not to be the best strategy this time. So there was a need for another sinister plot – run by the media. This is standard stuff – people like Michael Lowry have been playing it for years. But this time, the attack was particularly hysterical and violent. Peter Quinn set the tone by calling journalists "bastards".

Just one particular bastard was mentioned in the speeches, however – myself. Patricia Gilheaney, who speaks for the pro-Quinn campaign, told those at the rally that I had called them horrible names: "The people who attend these rallies have been called morons, culchies, idiots by the likes of Fintan O'Toole and co."

I have never, in public or in private, called the people who attend pro-Quinn rallies morons or culchies. I did use the word "idiots" in a column after the first Ballyconnell rally. It is worth giving the full paragraph in which the word appears (on August 7th last): "Very significant numbers of decent, respectable Irish people – not a majority but not a tiny minority either – are in literal contempt of the courts. They really don't give a damn what the courts find – if those findings come into conflict with their own deeper loyalties. They know that two separate High Court judges – Judge Dunne and Judge Kelly, both used to dealing with very bad stuff – have used language of rare vehemence about the actions of the Quinns in stripping €455 million worth of assets from public ownership: 'dishonesty and sharp practice', 'blatant, dishonest and deceitful', 'as far removed from the concept of honour and respectability as it is possible to be'. Some idiots among them truly believe that the judges are part of a giant conspiracy against the Quinns. Most know damn well that this is nonsense, but they simply don't care."

Any literate person can grasp that two things are being said here. One is that those supporting the Quinns are in the main "decent, respectable Irish people". The other is that there are "some idiots among them" who actually believe that Judge Dunne and Judge Kelly are conspiring with others to do unlawful harm to the Quinns.

I make no apology for describing anyone who holds this belief as an idiot. There is not the tiniest shred of evidence for it. It is not just nonsense but dangerous nonsense – deeply subversive of the rule of law on which our democracy is based.

And there clearly were some such idiots in the crowd at the rally in July. Banners held aloft alleged, for example, "Quinn held for ransom", suggesting that the courts are involved in kidnapping and extortion; "Irish Gov Kidnap Quinn", suggesting that the court had not merely illegally detained Seán Quinn jnr but done so at the behest of the Government; "State sponsored conspiracy", which speaks for itself; and "Irish court allows IBRC to sentence Quinn", meaning that the High Court handed over its powers to a third party and/or conspired with that third party to send a man to jail.

I assume that the Quinns themselves were ashamed of these disgraceful allegations – hence a conspiracy by judges has now been replaced in their demonology by a media conspiracy exemplified by myself. The new conspiracy is as much a sham as the old one. It is based, not only on a false allegation about what was written here, but also on a direct implication that myself and other journalists are, for mercenary reasons, taking instructions from senior civil servants.

Peter Quinn, who is not an idiot and who knows exactly what he is saying, asked the rally, rhetorically, "Could it be that the State's advertising is now the main source of income to the media business in this country or that the Department of Finance told them not to investigate it?" He knows very well that the answer to both of those questions is "no", but he presumably hopes that many of his listeners are foolish enough to think otherwise. So who's taking who for an idiot?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on October 16, 2012, 09:09:02 AM
The mob mentality is disturbing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on October 16, 2012, 09:14:51 AM
"I didn't call them morons, I called them idiots."

Splitting hairs there Fintan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on October 16, 2012, 09:23:15 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 16, 2012, 09:14:51 AM
"I didn't call them morons, I called them idiots."

Splitting hairs there Fintan.

Is that really your considered interpretation of what O'Toole said?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on October 16, 2012, 09:35:21 AM
Bless the wit of anyone who gives a shite what Fintan O'Toole says.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on October 16, 2012, 09:50:09 AM
QuoteBless the wit of anyone who gives a shite what Fintan O'Toole says.

So point out the inaccuracies in his piece then
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 16, 2012, 09:57:13 AM
Well it's his opinions. Nothing wrong with that but no point calling people idiots for disagreeing with him. He doesn't believe it's possible for the Irish courts to be influenced by political powers. Yet we have seen senior politicans, the Regulator and senior civil servants who all look to be involved in the maple 10 deal. It's not really that hard to believe especially when you you at the conditions attached to Sean Quinn Jrs contempt. In fact I'd find it hard to believe otherwise.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on October 16, 2012, 10:12:21 AM
SS, nobody is disagreeing with the notion that the political community are capable of bending the rules to suit their own agenda. I think we both agree that it has yet to be proven either way in this case, and that time will reveal whether or not the Quinns deserve to keep their assets. We both have different views right now, but if a court of this land rules that the family are entitled to the spoils of this "war", then so be it.

However the Quinns are going another step here - they are accusing the courts of corruption. That is a huge accusation and if they are doing so without proof, is essentially treason against the state. Of course it's subversive and Fintan O'Toole is right to call it as such - there's nothing opinionated about that. That's the very definition of treason, you are calling into question a fundamental pillar of the state. 

Secondly, it's only the Quinns that seem to want it both ways here. Right now, the law of the land is in favour of IBRC. The Quinns disagree, and they are entitled to appeal that all the way up to the European Court of Justice if they so choose. However it seems to me that they want it both ways. If the courts find in their favour, the state would be obliged to make restitution to them, and as we all know, the state will pay its bills, even when it doesn't have the money to do so. However if the courts rule against them, they want to be able to keep all their stuff anyway. Why the squirrelling away of assets, if you believe in the courts and you believe in right and wrong? Or if you don't believe in the courts, why go through them? Why not just form your own army and declare the independent republic of greater Derrylin, which is pretty much the next step to what they're doing now.


If I was to go up to one of their family's houses and break in, steal their property and commit acts of assault against them, they would rightly call the guards and expect the legal system to prosecute me. Yet they are showing no respect for that same legal system now, instead deciding that they know best and engaging in chicanery to ensure that the Irish taxpayer gets stiffed, REGARDLESS of whether the courts side with them or not.

How in God's name can you not see the malevolence and greed here?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on October 16, 2012, 10:35:11 AM
Quote from: Declan on October 16, 2012, 09:50:09 AM
QuoteBless the wit of anyone who gives a shite what Fintan O'Toole says.

So point out the inaccuracies in his piece then

That would mean reading a Fintan O'Toole article. I stopped doing that long long ago. Sad thing is that arrogant arseholes like O'Toole unfortunately are opinion formers for many in Ireland. Small wonder people seem more interested in lambasting Sean Quinn than Anglo and the FF-esque assholes running the country.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thebigfella on October 16, 2012, 04:03:29 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 16, 2012, 10:35:11 AM
Quote from: Declan on October 16, 2012, 09:50:09 AM
QuoteBless the wit of anyone who gives a shite what Fintan O'Toole says.

So point out the inaccuracies in his piece then

That would mean reading a Fintan O'Toole article. I stopped doing that long long ago. Sad thing is that arrogant arseholes like O'Toole unfortunately are opinion formers for many in Ireland. Small wonder people seem more interested in lambasting Sean Quinn than Anglo and the FF-esque assholes running theyour country.

Fixed that for ya.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on October 16, 2012, 05:09:58 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on October 16, 2012, 04:03:29 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 16, 2012, 10:35:11 AM
Quote from: Declan on October 16, 2012, 09:50:09 AM
QuoteBless the wit of anyone who gives a shite what Fintan O'Toole says.

So point out the inaccuracies in his piece then

That would mean reading a Fintan O'Toole article. I stopped doing that long long ago. Sad thing is that arrogant arseholes like O'Toole unfortunately are opinion formers for many in Ireland. Small wonder people seem more interested in lambasting Sean Quinn than Anglo and the FF-esque assholes running theyour country.

Fixed that for ya.

Yawn

(http://coelaifullife.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/yawn.gif?w=540)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: fearbrags on October 17, 2012, 10:53:22 AM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1017/sean-quinn-jnr-court.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 17, 2012, 01:16:49 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on October 16, 2012, 10:12:21 AM
SS, nobody is disagreeing with the notion that the political community are capable of bending the rules to suit their own agenda. I think we both agree that it has yet to be proven either way in this case, and that time will reveal whether or not the Quinns deserve to keep their assets. We both have different views right now, but if a court of this land rules that the family are entitled to the spoils of this "war", then so be it.

However the Quinns are going another step here - they are accusing the courts of corruption. That is a huge accusation and if they are doing so without proof, is essentially treason against the state. Of course it's subversive and Fintan O'Toole is right to call it as such - there's nothing opinionated about that. That's the very definition of treason, you are calling into question a fundamental pillar of the state. 

Secondly, it's only the Quinns that seem to want it both ways here. Right now, the law of the land is in favour of IBRC. The Quinns disagree, and they are entitled to appeal that all the way up to the European Court of Justice if they so choose. However it seems to me that they want it both ways. If the courts find in their favour, the state would be obliged to make restitution to them, and as we all know, the state will pay its bills, even when it doesn't have the money to do so. However if the courts rule against them, they want to be able to keep all their stuff anyway. Why the squirrelling away of assets, if you believe in the courts and you believe in right and wrong? Or if you don't believe in the courts, why go through them? Why not just form your own army and declare the independent republic of greater Derrylin, which is pretty much the next step to what they're doing now.


If I was to go up to one of their family's houses and break in, steal their property and commit acts of assault against them, they would rightly call the guards and expect the legal system to prosecute me. Yet they are showing no respect for that same legal system now, instead deciding that they know best and engaging in chicanery to ensure that the Irish taxpayer gets stiffed, REGARDLESS of whether the courts side with them or not.

How in God's name can you not see the malevolence and greed here?

The Dail is a fundamental pillar of the state, but is often called into question here. How is that any different? Or is that Treason as well? Proof of political influence over a court might be a hard thing to prove "beyond doubt". But I'd take the decision today by the supreme court to over rule parts of Justice Dunne's ludicrous sentencing as enough to sew a seed of doubt. How she felt she could firstly imprison someone for the actions of someone else and tell them that they were to be held indefinitely until the other person purged their contempt was crazy. Ask any legal official you will about that. It was infringement of their basic human rights. That meant that had Sean Quinn Jr decided to purge his comtempt, it wouldn't have mattered and that he was not in a position to allow for his own release but was dependent on someone else to do so. It was a nonsense ruling that in my opinion was lead by political influence and the need to exert pressure on Sean Sr by whichever means possible. 

Also what you fail to metion is that the majority of asset stripping was done before the Injunction, hence why they were only held in contempt for 3 cases out of 30. So in effect they moved assets that they didn't believe Anglo had any right to, and who at the time of moving had insufficient security over the assets. Otherwise the Quinns would be looking at criminal charges rather than civil. And at the end of the day Anglo weren't waiting to prove their security over the assets was legal before they move to take the assets so why did you think the Quinns would do otherwise?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on October 17, 2012, 09:49:29 PM
How come the Treasury Holding boys are not getting the same treatment as the Quinn's?
There seems to be very little media 'outrage' at there actions and movement of assets.
No movement by NAMA to have them in contempt.
Why is this now?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 19, 2012, 09:29:13 AM
Sean senior going to swop places with Sean Junior later on today ?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sheamy on October 19, 2012, 10:39:03 AM
Quote from: FermGael on October 17, 2012, 09:49:29 PM
How come the Treasury Holding boys are not getting the same treatment as the Quinn's?
There seems to be very little media 'outrage' at there actions and movement of assets.
No movement by NAMA to have them in contempt.
Why is this now?

(http://dublinopinion.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/kenny-barrett.jpg)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on October 19, 2012, 11:16:18 AM
Exactly.  It's All about who you know.  The D4 crowd will protect there own.
The media has there villian in the Quinn's and that's all they need.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 19, 2012, 11:47:05 AM
The case of Sean Quinn Sr, once Ireland's richest man has been adjourned in the High Court in Dublin.

The cases of Mr Quinn, his son Sean Quinn Jr, and nephew Peter Darragh Quinn, were to be reviewed.

On Wednesday, Sean Quinn Jr lost a Supreme Court appeal against a three-month sentence for contempt of court.

Sean Quinn Sr was spared jail in order to co-operate with the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, the former Anglo-Irish Bank, in recovering assets.

On Friday, the judge decided to adjourn the case for two weeks.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on October 19, 2012, 11:47:33 AM
SQ Jnr to be released later today.  SQ Snr gets another two weeks for his legal team to look at Anglo evidence of alleged further asset stripping.  Case adjourned.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on October 19, 2012, 11:49:16 AM
SQ case adjourned for 2 weeks. SQ Jr getting out later on today
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 19, 2012, 12:02:33 PM
Quote from: AQMP on October 19, 2012, 11:47:33 AM
SQ Jnr to be released later today.  SQ Snr gets another two weeks for his legal team to look at Anglo evidence of alleged further asset stripping.  Case adjourned.

2 weeks to get the suitcase packed for a 3 month holiday at the governement's expense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 19, 2012, 12:09:56 PM
Quinn's have a new legal team.

A High court hearing of contempt proceedings against Sean Quinn and his son has been adjourned for two weeks.

A new Belfast-based legal team asked the court for more time to prepare a defence for the former billionaire.

The status of Seán Quinn Jnr who has served three months in jail remained "uncertain" today as Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne said it was up to the prison authorities to decide on his release time.

That is expected to take place later today as his sentence has now expired.

Lawyers for IBRC, the former Anglo Irish Bank, told the court there had still been no meaningful co-operation from Seán Quinn Snr to comply with orders of the court to reverse the asset stripping of Quinn companies.

The court was told "nothing had been done and no steps had been taken".

Senior Counsel Paul Gallagher also wants the court to consider new evidence of control over companies previously denied by the Quinns.

Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne described the new evidence as of great concern.

She told the Quinns new legal team to concentrate on the compliance issues rather than historical issues in the case.

Counsel for Seán Quinn Snr said his age and medical condition should be taken into account when punitive measures are being considered.

However he said Mr Quinn will say he has been co-operating fully and is willing to do more. The Quinns have also written to IBRC asking if mediation would be possible in the case.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 19, 2012, 12:33:16 PM
Sean Quinn Jnr is a free man.

He left the High Court hand in hand with his wife Karen Woods today after serving a three month jail term for contempt of court.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 19, 2012, 01:32:32 PM
Quote from: FermGael on October 19, 2012, 11:16:18 AM
Exactly.  It's All about who you know.  The D4 crowd will protect there own.
The media has there villian in the Quinn's and that's all they need.

Would someone be able to give a summarised version of events on the whole Treasury Holdings dealings. I have a small understanding of what's going on but have to admit not in-depth. and I somehow feel that I must be missing something, somewhere along the lines?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on October 19, 2012, 01:45:04 PM
Another member of the vast conspiracy gives his opinion:
Quinn's crocodile tears don't change facts — he's unbelievable
By Matt Cooper
Friday, October 19, 2012
IT WOULD have been hard-hearted not to have felt at least some sympathy for Seán Quinn if you had watched him shed tears on the stage of the protest rally at Ballyconnell in County Cavan last Sunday.
This was what he had been reduced to: once a billionaire, reputedly the richest man on the island, now a bankrupt. The man who felt he could give everything to his children — and didn't he try, in a financial sense at least? — seeing his son languishing in jail, something he now possibly faces himself. But that's enough sympathy. He doesn't deserve any more than a mere thought of it.

So if there are there are tears today when Seán Quinn senior discovers if he is or is not to be sent to jail for contempt shown against previous High Court orders, just remember this: the family have nobody to blame for their problems but themselves.

Take no notice of angry declarations either of the type of the nonsense uttered last Sunday by Quinn's brother Peter (father of Peter junior, too cowardly to face the courts in the Republic of Ireland, the consequences of his contempt). There's likely to be all sorts of bull spoken by Quinn's supporters today, whatever the decision of High Court judge Elizabeth Dunne on jailing him for contempt is. If he's jailed it's likely to be described as a gross injustice. If he's not, some sort of vindication may be claimed, erroneously.

Quinn and his relatively small group of supporters have a tendency to make claims that are outlandish and demonstrably false. They can be summarised along these lines:

1. Quinn ran a perfectly good business until Anglo Irish Bank came along and ruined him.

2. Quinn would have rescued the situation had his businesses not been taken unjustly from him.

3. Quinn was forced unlawfully to take loans from Anglo and to offer his assets as collateral for these illegal loans, making him vulnerable to what eventually happened.

4. Quinn has only acted to protect what is his from the grasp of the State.

5. Quinn is the victim of a giant conspiracy involving the Government, Anglo Irish Bank, the judiciary and the media.

6. There are many others who were worse than him, who seem to be escaping scot-free.

The response can be summarised in this way:

1. Quinn over-expanded his business empire and tried to prop it up improperly by using cash from an insurance business that had been run disastrously and incurred massive losses, way more than €1 billion. That was entirely separate to his gambling on Anglo shares.

2. Quinn's behaviour with the insurance company's cash reserves — as well as the dubious day-to-day business practices — meant he could not be trusted by the regulator to be allowed to continue run it. His plan to use Quinn Insurance profits to rescue the group and repay his debts to Anglo was Walter Mittyesque in its expectations and doomed to failure.

3. Quinn was not forced by anybody to buy shares in Anglo. While Anglo should not have lent him the money to try to rescue the situation when his gambling on the shares went wildly wrong, Quinn willingly took the money and pledged his family's assets, normal collateral for a loan.

4. While Quinn is entitled to argue the legality of the €2.3bn loan used to cover his insane share gamble at Anglo, he has admitted previously the €455m or so borrowed for his property speculation outside of Ireland is a legitimate debt. The bank was entitled to seize control of those assets when the debts could not be repaid. Therefore by disobeying court orders and by putting those assets "beyond the reach" of the bank (and the State as the bank's owner), he has potentially cost all of us.

5. The facts do not bear out Quinn's claim of victimhood. Indeed, they suggest a cynical and disingenuous attempt to mislead people through the uttering of a series of deliberate mistruths.

6. There are many others who deserve to be brought to justice. The basis of the Quinn defence to the contempt charges they have faced, and continue to face, is most interesting. It was best summarised by Mr Justice Donal O'Donnell in the Supreme Court when he said that the argument being put in front of him was the family had set out to double-cross the bank, but had in turn been double-crossed by the agents in Russia and elsewhere that it had used to put its plan into operation. Now the Quinns have claimed that they can't reverse their own wrongful acts, because they are the victims of that double cross, and therefore cannot purge their contempt and return the assets to Anglo.

But should we believe the Quinns when they say that they can't get the money back? One of the reasons why the contempt proceedings were brought was the emergence of proof the Quinns had not just transferred assets after a court order in the summer of 2011, but had deliberately altered and forged documents to make it appear the transfers had occurred prior to that date.

Anglo (or Irish Bank Resolution Corporation) as it likes to be called now) does not accept that the family has lost control of these assets. Indeed, it can't. What would happen if the courts were to accept the Quinn assurances and we were to learn subsequently that it was yet another lie? Nor should we accept all of this nonsense that the Quinns were humble people who only did what they did for the benefit of the people of the border region. "I don't use a mobile phone," Seán Quinn told a business conference in his own four-star Slieve Russell hotel in 2007. "I play cards in a house at night where you have to go out into the front street to go to the toilet... I live a very simple life... I'm not overly shy but I much prefer to just sit back and enjoy what I'm doing, with my two dogs, my Wellington boots on, and dodging about the mountain."

WHAT he didn't tell us what he lived in a 14,700 sq ft mansion — complete with swimming pool, hot tub, jacuzzi, snooker room, putting green and cinema.

Justice Elizabeth Dunne nailed it in the High Court when she said, in response to Quinn's claim in evidence that he ran his empire with honour, that his behaviour was "as far removed from the concept of honour and respectability as can be". She has given reasoned judgements, based on the evidence in front of her, that find the Quinns have acted in "a blatant, dishonest and deceitful manner." She has described their evidence as, among other things, "frankly unbelievable", "completely lacking in credibility", "evasive, less than forthright, obstructive, uncooperative and at times untruthful". Documents presented to the court were found to have been "fabricated or falsified".

So let's summarise things, on the basis of the known facts: Quinn was an outrageous gambler on the stock market. He didn't have enough money to cover his bets, he recklessly used other people's money to do so, including that of the insurance company. He lost his bets but does not want to pay them. He has sought to keep money and assets that are not his, or to do so on behalf of his family. All of us are suffering the financial consequences of his greed.

While none of this changed what Quinn had created or achieved for the border region, particularly the creation of jobs, it did outweigh it. While loyalty to Quinn in the border region was honourable in the early days of his crisis, it should have evaporated as the facts became known. Their misplaced loyalty makes those who still support Quinn' look foolish.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 19, 2012, 02:14:30 PM
BANKRUPT businessman Sean Quinn wants to purge his contempt and is willing to co-operate with the former Anglo Irish Bank, the High Court was told.

This morning the former billionaire was due to be sentenced at the High Court for breaking court orders not to interfere with up to €500m worth of properties in the family's international property group (IPG).


But the hearing was adjourned for two weeks after the IBRC (the former Anglo Irish Bank), said "significant new material" had emerged which required consideration by the courts.


New lawyers for Ireland's former richest man said that the 66-year-old, who has had two major heart operations, wants to purge his contempt and co-operate with the IBRC.


Mr Quinn, who recently parted with his Dublin legal team, was represented in court today by Belfast human rights law firm, Kevin R Winters, led by Eugene Grant QC.


Mr Grant told the High Court that the new legal team had only been instructed this week and requested time to consider the history of the case and the new evidence submitted by the IBRC.


"My instructions since Tuesday and Wednesday are that since the adjournment of the punitive element there has been co-operation [by Mr Quinn Snr]," said Mr Grant.


Mr Grant said that Sean Quinn Snr, Sean Quinn Jnr and Peter Darragh Quinn had written to the IBRC to explore the potential for mediation with the IBRC.


Mr Grant said that Mr Quinn is now 66 and has had two serious heart operations.


"He wants to co-operate and purge his contempt," said Mr Grant who is now also representing Sean Quinn Jnr who has just completed a three-month sentence for contempt of court.


Mr Quinn Jnr, dressed in jeans and a jumper, apologised for his clothing in court - he had just been brought from Mountjoy Prison this morning and had expected to be released last night.


The IBRC consented to a brief adjournment - it wants to consider reasons due to be given by the Supreme Court in Sean Quinn Jnr's appeal - but the bank said that court orders were not a matter for mediation.


The written judgment is due to be released on Wednesday.


Senior Counsel Paul Gallagher, for the IBRC, said that the new material has unmasked "a very, very disturbing situation" which included:


- The deliberate and "cynical" backdating of employment contracts which contained termination payments of over €30m for members of the Quinn family;


- Continuing breach of court orders and the continuing extraction of monies from the IPG


Mr Gallagher said that Sean Quinn Snr had done "nothing" to reinstate overseas properties to the former Anglo Irish Bank.


Mr Quinn was accompanied in court by his daughter Aoife Quinn and sat beside his son Sean Quinn Jnr.


Other family members who attended the hearing included sons in law Niall McPartland and Stephen Kelly as well as Karen Woods, Sean Quinn Jnr's wife.


High Court Judge Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne said it was "prudent" to afford time to the Quinns to deal with and contest the new evidence, including new information that a court order freezing a $500,000 payment to a businesswoman in the Ukraine.


The court heard that "significant new evidence" had been obtained as a result of a new bankruptcy receiver being appointed to Finnanstroy – the Russian company that owns the Quinn family's $180m Kutuzoff Tower in Moscow - the jewel in the crown of the IPG.


The IBRC said that the documents "demonstrated the continuing control" by the Quinn family, of various companies in their IPG.

from the Independent online
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 19, 2012, 02:27:26 PM
QuoteQuinn over-expanded his business empire and tried to prop it up improperly by using cash from an insurance business that had been run disastrously and incurred massive losses, way more than €1 billion. That was entirely separate to his gambling on Anglo shares.
Bollix, the Quinn group was and still is profitable. He expanded the business well in the areas that he knew, manufacturing, hospitality, production etc. The issues over the debt into QIL are still standing , splitting a company and getting the taxpayers to pay for the unprofitable side was a master stroke by IBRC. And yet again no one thinks to question that. And considering the Administrators themselves said that QIL was a profitable business after they had reviewed it . Something doesn't stack up alright. And true as you like they aren't happy to allow a public enquiry into the dealings of the administration of QIL. Nor has the Regulator been able to show the legal advise he took when placing it into Administration.

Quote. Quinn's behaviour with the insurance company's cash reserves — as well as the dubious day-to-day business practices — meant he could not be trusted by the regulator to be allowed to continue run it. His plan to use Quinn Insurance profits to rescue the group and repay his debts to Anglo was Walter Mittyesque in its expectations and doomed to failure.

again was Quinn the only one who had problems with his reserves? Was he f$%k. In the first three months of 2010 QIL increased it's CASH (Not property or assets aquired) reserves by £30M. I wonder how much VHI increased their's by over the same timeframe? So QIL were already in the process of "Trading their way out"

Quote3. Quinn was not forced by anybody to buy shares in Anglo. While Anglo should not have lent him the money to try to rescue the situation when his gambling on the shares went wildly wrong, Quinn willingly took the money and pledged his family's assets, normal collateral for a loan.

Debatable here alright. Quinn is saying that Anglo were forcing him to take the loans, I'd take that with a pinch of salt myself. But either way the loans shouldn't have been an option here. And anglo loaned him money against assets that were in the family's name. They only came looking the children to sign share pledges at a later date after the loans were done and tried to get them to sign retrospective documents including documents to say that they had been provided with legal representation, which they hadn't. So to try and say normal collateral is again Bollix. It was not a straight forward loan deal and if that is the level of Matt Cooper's understanding for it then it doesn't say much for his expertise.

Quote4. While Quinn is entitled to argue the legality of the €2.3bn loan used to cover his insane share gamble at Anglo, he has admitted previously the €455m or so borrowed for his property speculation outside of Ireland is a legitimate debt. The bank was entitled to seize control of those assets when the debts could not be repaid. Therefore by disobeying court orders and by putting those assets "beyond the reach" of the bank (and the State as the bank's owner), he has potentially cost all of us.

This is the lovely little jem that always pops up now when it's argued about the loans not been viable. And again has shown up Matt Coopers understanding of the whole process. The assets that the 455M was attached to are already in Anglo's control. None of the assets that the Quinns have moved were in relation to the 455M debts. This is the sad fact that few journalists (Other than Vicent Browne to his credit) want to focus on.

Quote5. The facts do not bear out Quinn's claim of victimhood. Indeed, they suggest a cynical and disingenuous attempt to mislead people through the uttering of a series of deliberate mistruths.
In his opinion. I'd say the targeting of the Quinn family by the irish media from what they paid for a Wedding cake in the good times to what they're wearing now is a cynical and disengenuous attempt by the media to blacken the name of the family and to use him as a figure head for the down fall of Anglo.

Quote6. There are many others who deserve to be brought to justice. The basis of the Quinn defence to the contempt charges they have faced, and continue to face, is most interesting. It was best summarised by Mr Justice Donal O'Donnell in the Supreme Court when he said that the argument being put in front of him was the family had set out to double-cross the bank, but had in turn been double-crossed by the agents in Russia and elsewhere that it had used to put its plan into operation. Now the Quinns have claimed that they can't reverse their own wrongful acts, because they are the victims of that double cross, and therefore cannot purge their contempt and return the assets to Anglo.

Again he starts with one point, that he should be raising about others not getting brought to task over the whole mess. But then just decides to run into another rant against the Quinns rather than the point he actually raised himself. No agenda there then!!!!

So all in all a typical B$llsh%t article that is doing it's best to paint the Quinns in the bad light without once looking at the actions of the other side, which you would imagine would have been valid.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 19, 2012, 02:36:18 PM
SS - Did the Quinn family actually sign the retrospective share pledges AFTER the loans were made ? And if they did sign retrospectively, how long after and why did they sign ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 19, 2012, 02:48:25 PM
Not sure of the time frames tbh. But they claim to have the proof that the pledges were signed retrospectively. And they didn't consent to signing the documents that said that they had been given Legal representation. Which were sent out by the squeaky clean current management of IBRC. And don't ya know they wouldn't do anything underhand!! And I wonder if that is proven to be true, will members of the current management of IBRC come under scrunity for their procedures? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 19, 2012, 03:08:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 19, 2012, 02:48:25 PM
Not sure of the time frames tbh. But they claim to have the proof that the pledges were signed retrospectively. And they didn't consent to signing the documents that said that they had been given Legal representation. Which were sent out by the squeaky clean current management of IBRC. And don't ya know they wouldn't do anything underhand!! And I wonder if that is proven to be true, will members of the current management of IBRC come under scrunity for their procedures?


Wouldn't think so.

Failure to follow proper procedure given all that has gone on with Anglo wouldn't have been the most serious offence to have ever occurred and it would be well down the list.

Eyelid wouldn't even be batted.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 19, 2012, 03:15:38 PM
AFAIK it's also illegal to try and get legal documents signed retrospectively.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 19, 2012, 03:16:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 19, 2012, 03:15:38 PM
AFAIK it's also illegal to try and get legal documents signed retrospectively.

Did the Quinns backdate them ?

Or did Anglo back date then ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 19, 2012, 03:20:12 PM
I know its getting confusing!!  :P

On this one Anglo were trying to get the Quinns to sign documents that were backdated, allegedly. In order to say they had received legal advise when signing loan pledges.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 19, 2012, 03:47:24 PM
Sure if we're quoting Matt cooper...

QuoteTyrone GAA Manager, Mickey Harte, has said that the people of Ireland have had "a selective view of the truth" about the Sean Quinn situation fed to them over the last few years.



Speaking at the Rally in Ballyconnell last Sunday, Mr Harte said he had returned for this Rally for a number of reasons, first of which was to prove to detractors that "I'm not delusional".

"I have come here of my own free will. I have come here because I believe that the Quinn family deserve our support. They have been so supportive of the people over the years," he told the crowd of over 7,000 people to roars of approval.

Mr Harte said that it was clear that people had only been given a "very selective view of what's going on".

"A selective view of the truth if you like. That's what's coming through widespread in the media and I haven't found too many people who will go and dig deeper than that the issues that really matter, that are at the core of this," he said.

"So maybe people who have indulged themselves in other things could now transfer those skills to another place and come up with a lot of other answers as well," he said clearly alluding to some of the national media coverage of the Quinn family some of whom had even sunk to critiquing the clothing worn by the wife of Sean Quinn Jnr, during prison visits to her husband.

The GAA manager also criticised those who had attacked those attending previous Quinn Rallies.

"The people who describe us as something not too nice of people, well maybe it's they have the problem. Maybe they need to look at themselves," he observed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on October 19, 2012, 07:55:11 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 19, 2012, 03:15:38 PM
AFAIK it's also illegal to try and get legal documents signed retrospectively.
Eh? I didn't think that's what's meant when the term retrospective is used in this case. My understanding is that they signed a guarantee retrospectively - i.e. a loan was taken out and then a guarantee signed at a later date, not that someone signed something at a later date and backdated it. I may be wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 19, 2012, 09:10:28 PM
No, they tried to get the children to sign documents that said they received legal advise at the time of the loans. And this was long after the loans were done. The children refused!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on October 19, 2012, 09:39:03 PM
Won't someone think of the children.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on October 24, 2012, 03:03:28 PM
Supreme Court backs ruling that Sean Quinn Jnr committed 'outrageous' contempt

Wednesday October 24 2012
FOUR out of five Supreme Court judges today agreed the High Court was entitled to conclude there was "outrageous" contempt by Sean Quinn Jnr of court orders restraining stripping of assets form the Quinn's international property group (IPG).

There was "ample" evidence to justify the High Court finding "beyond reasonable doubt" that Sean Quinn Jnr was involved in a US$500,000 payment to a Ukrainian woman, Larissa Puga, in contempt of those same orders, and it was entitled to jail him for three months concerning that transaction, Mr Justice Nial Fennelly said when giving the majority 4/1 judgment today.

Dissenting, Mr Justice Adrian Hardiman said there was no direct evidence to support the finding of contempt against Quinn Jnr and "no legally recognisable basis" for granting a request by Irish Bank Resolution Corporation to jail him so as to put pressure on his father to reverse asset-stripping measures.

The proceedings in the High Court leading to Quinn Jnr being jailed were in the nature of "a summary criminal trial conducted by a judge sitting alone", he said.

The High Court failed to focus on the specific case made against Quinn Jnr, as opposed to his father and cousin and was not entitled, in the absence of direct evidence of the single charge against him, to lock him up on foot of evidence of a general nature he was "up to no good".

The legal actions between IBRC, the former Anglo Irish Bank, and the Quinn family are being fought with "extraordinary bitterness" with each side considering the other had perpetrated grave injustices against it, the judge also observed. In those actions, both sides "have questions to answer".

All five judges agreed the High Court was not entitled to jail Qunn Jnr indefinitely in an effort to procure his compliance with some 30 coercive orders aimed at reversing a wide range of asset-stripping measures when there was no finding against him concerning those other measures. The court has set aside almost all of the coercive orders insofar as they relate to Quinn Jnr.

The court today delivered judgments outlining the reasons for its 4/1 ruling last week dismissing the appeal by Quinn Jnr against the High Court finding he acted in contempt arising from the payment to Ms Puga, general director of Quinn Properties Ukraine, on the eve of the bank's takeover of that company.

The Chief Justice, Ms Justice Susan Denham; Mr Justice Donal O'Donnell and Mr Justice Liam McKechnie all agreed with Mr Justice Fennelly.

They dismissed Quinn Jnr's appeal against the finding he was in contempt over the Puga payment and his appeal against the imposition of three months imprisonment for that but set aside her order jailing him indefinitely for failing to comply with the terms of some 30 coercive orders.

The coercive orders were sought by the bank with a view to procuring the reversal of a wide range of measures designed to strip up to $430m assets from the Quinn's international property group so as to put them beyond the reach of IBRC, which is pursuing the Quinn family over some €2.8bn loans.

Mr Justice Hardiman disagreed and said he would have allowed the appeal in its entirety.

Next week, Ms Justice Dunne is due to review whether Mr Quinn, his father and cousin Peter Darragh Quinn have made adequate efforts to purge their contempt. Sean Quinn Jnr was freed from Mountjoy Prison training unit last Friday on expiry of the three-month detention period.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 24, 2012, 04:02:32 PM
That's it? No reason for Judge Dunne to explain why she came up with the crazy assed conditions attached to the contempt? If I were the Quinns I wouldn't be too happy at having her involved in any of their cases in the future. Bent over to allow Anglo to do what they want regardless of rights. but sure don't mention political influence. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 27, 2012, 07:31:51 PM
QuoteI ONCE crossed swords (words, actually) with Supreme Court judge Mr Justice Adrian Hardiman. No hard feelings, of course, we just enjoyed some extra judicial, colourful differences on media coverage of the courts in general and the Supreme Court in particular.

I don't always agree with Judge Hardiman's views, on or off the bench, but his role on the Supreme Court -- often as a sole dissentient -- is critical.

Earlier this week, Judge Hardiman issued a potentially game-changing minority report in the Sean Quinn Jnr appeal.

Four of his colleagues dismissed Sean Jnr's appeal against his conviction and three-month sentence for contempt -- for breaking court orders not to interfere with the Quinn family's €500m strong international property group.

Judge Hardiman would have allowed the appeal in its entirety.

Although he did not, on this occasion, carry his colleagues with his legal reasoning, Judge Hardiman's depiction and analysis of the cancerous litigation between the Quinn family and the former Anglo Irish Bank was sublime.

And, along with the jailing of Sean Quinn Jnr -- the threat of even more trips to Mountjoy hang over eight members of the Quinn family -- Judge Hardiman's observations may just accelerate the prospect of an out-of-court deal between the two sides.

In his ruling, Judge Hardiman said that the litigation to date has been fought on both sides with "extraordinary bitterness", each camp believing that the other side has perpetrated "grave injustices" against it.

The Quinns believe the bank duped them into an illegal deal to borrow money to prop up the bank's share price.

The IBRC (formerly Anglo) says the Quinns, largely as a result of their father Sean Quinn Snr's audacious/disastrous €3bn bet on then-Anglo's shares, have defaulted on their debts and therefore have to pay up and hand over all the overseas assets they attempted to put beyond the bank's reach.

If only it were that simple.

Part of the Anglo-Quinn saga may unfold in the forthcoming criminal prosecutions of three former Anglo executives, including its former chairman Sean FitzPatrick.

But the greatest opportunity for a proxy banking inquiry lies in the Quinn family's civil action against the IBRC.

In that action, the Quinns claim that €2.3bn in loans extended to them were made for illegal purposes, to manipulate the bank's share price as those very shares tanked.

The new management team at the IBRC, including chief executive officer Mike Aynsley and head of specialised asset management Richard Woodhouse -- the man trying to undo the overseas asset transfers -- can hardly be faulted for what transpired before the bank was nationalised.

But as successor to Anglo and its liabilities, the IBRC executive is in the tricky position of defending the bank.

Any public airing of all that dirty linen is bound to cause huge discomfort.

It is hard to feel sorry for the Quinn family in light of explosive revelations in recent months, not least that many were drawing huge salaries from the international property group, despite court orders banning any interference with their property empire.

But Judge Hardiman was correct to point out that while the Quinns have questions to answer "in legal proceedings and perhaps otherwise" -- hinting that they may also end up facing criminal charges -- the bank also has questions to answer.

The IBRC is enjoying both a litigious advantage and a publicity advantage at present. As long as the focus is on the Quinn family and the prospect of them going to jail, it does not have to answer, for now, questions about its own conduct.

That is why the prospect of a mediated settlement, aired in the High Court yesterday, is gaining quiet traction.

The IBRC can't be blamed for doubting the Quinn family's good faith and may regard claims that they are at their wits' end as a ploy.

Equally, the Quinn litigation must be highly stressful for the bank, the public purse and whatever reputation remains of Ireland Inc.

A settlement may be a bitter pill for all to swallow -- the alternative doesn't taste too good either.

Irish Independent

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 27, 2012, 07:48:07 PM
SS

I read that today. Interesting development that appears to be gaining some ground.


Sean Senior won't be heading to Mountjoy for a while yet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 27, 2012, 08:21:12 PM
I still think he'll do time. Don't see any way how he couldn't. It would make a farce of the whole thing if he doesn't.

I'm just surprised that an article did more than just focus on the contempt and looked at the big picture with regards to the Anglo- Quinn debate.
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 27, 2012, 11:19:22 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 27, 2012, 08:21:12 PM
I still think he'll do time. Don't see any way how he couldn't. It would make a farce of the whole thing if he doesn't.

I'm just surprised that an article did more than just focus on the contempt and looked at the big picture with regards to the Anglo- Quinn debate.


Coincidence or not ? Rowing back ?

I've always been of the view that there are rights and wrongs on both sides.

Anglo are going for everything. Didn't Donald Trump's divorced wife famously say " dont' get mad, get EVERYTHING !". Anglo hold the same view. They're not going to get everything as they're not without sin. This I think will become more clear as time goes on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on November 01, 2012, 08:39:48 AM
Warning of 'civil unrest' if Quinn is sent to prison

A CAMPAIGN group set up to support Sean Quinn and his family have warned of potential "civil unrest" if he goes to jail or falls ill as a result of ongoing legal battles.

The warning by Concerned Irish Citizens (CIC) comes as the High Court rules later today whether the 66-year-old, who has had two heart operations, should be sent to jail for breaking court orders.

"There is civil unrest, but we don't want it exploding in the wrong way," said Patricia Gilheany, secretary of CIC which says it condemns any acts of violence and vandalism.

Ms Gilheany said CIC has received reports from many people concerned about the "confirmed signs of trauma, exhaustion and heartbreak" experienced by Mr Quinn and his wife Patricia at a recent rally in Ballyconnell, Co Cavan.

"Many have also commented that if Sean Quinn or any of his family drop dead from the sheer pressure and stress that they are being subjected to on a daily basis, there will be very serious consequences for their perpetrators and for those who facilitated this horror," said Ms Gilheany.

The IBRC (formerly Anglo) has a visible security detail surrounding key bank personnel during court appearances but it does not comment on such matters. Last year, a new chief executive appointed to the Quinn Group had his family car completely destroyed by an arson attack at his home in Co Meath.

Paul O'Brien's BMW was completely ruined in the attack, which also caused damage to the front of his home.

CIC said that it has been flooded with calls from people who are "deeply frustrated and outraged" by events surrounding the IBRC whose executives were grilled yesterday by an Oireachtas committee.

Today's court hearing centres on orders not to interfere with the family's €500m-strong international property group.

Earlier this month new lawyers retained by Sean Quinn Snr told the High Court that he wants to purge his contempt, and is willing to co-operate with the former Anglo Irish Bank.

Medical reports are likely to feature strongly in any plea of mitigation should Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne direct that Mr Quinn be sent to jail. His son Sean Quinn Jnr served a three-month sentence at Dublin's Mountjoy Prison for contempt of court.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
Quinns back into Court again today. I would imagine we'll see Sr getting sent to Mountjoy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 01, 2012, 09:14:25 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
Quinns back into Court again today. I would imagine we'll see Sr getting sent to Mountjoy.

Can't see this happening.

Anglo, the solicitors will kick for touch again.

As soon as Sean Snr goes to jail, it's all over as far as getting any sort of a resolution is concerned.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on November 01, 2012, 10:45:11 AM
Quote from: orangeman on November 01, 2012, 09:14:25 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
Quinns back into Court again today. I would imagine we'll see Sr getting sent to Mountjoy.

Can't see this happening.

Anglo, the solicitors will kick for touch again.

As soon as Sean Snr goes to jail, it's all over as far as getting any sort of a resolution is concerned.

They need to keep the threat over him to try to claw back some property. If they 'go nuclear' they will get nothing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on November 01, 2012, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: Declan on November 01, 2012, 08:39:48 AM
Warning of 'civil unrest' if Quinn is sent to prison

A CAMPAIGN group set up to support Sean Quinn and his family have warned of potential "civil unrest" if he goes to jail or falls ill as a result of ongoing legal battles.

The warning by Concerned Irish Citizens (CIC) comes as the High Court rules later today whether the 66-year-old, who has had two heart operations, should be sent to jail for breaking court orders.

"There is civil unrest, but we don't want it exploding in the wrong way," said Patricia Gilheany, secretary of CIC which says it condemns any acts of violence and vandalism.

Ms Gilheany said CIC has received reports from many people concerned about the "confirmed signs of trauma, exhaustion and heartbreak" experienced by Mr Quinn and his wife Patricia at a recent rally in Ballyconnell, Co Cavan.

"Many have also commented that if Sean Quinn or any of his family drop dead from the sheer pressure and stress that they are being subjected to on a daily basis, there will be very serious consequences for their perpetrators and for those who facilitated this horror," said Ms Gilheany.

The IBRC (formerly Anglo) has a visible security detail surrounding key bank personnel during court appearances but it does not comment on such matters. Last year, a new chief executive appointed to the Quinn Group had his family car completely destroyed by an arson attack at his home in Co Meath.

Paul O'Brien's BMW was completely ruined in the attack, which also caused damage to the front of his home.

CIC said that it has been flooded with calls from people who are "deeply frustrated and outraged" by events surrounding the IBRC whose executives were grilled yesterday by an Oireachtas committee.

Today's court hearing centres on orders not to interfere with the family's €500m-strong international property group.

Earlier this month new lawyers retained by Sean Quinn Snr told the High Court that he wants to purge his contempt, and is willing to co-operate with the former Anglo Irish Bank.

Medical reports are likely to feature strongly in any plea of mitigation should Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne direct that Mr Quinn be sent to jail. His son Sean Quinn Jnr served a three-month sentence at Dublin's Mountjoy Prison for contempt of court.

Very Paisleyesque language there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2012, 11:14:14 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 01, 2012, 10:45:11 AM
Quote from: orangeman on November 01, 2012, 09:14:25 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
Quinns back into Court again today. I would imagine we'll see Sr getting sent to Mountjoy.

Can't see this happening.

Anglo, the solicitors will kick for touch again.

As soon as Sean Snr goes to jail, it's all over as far as getting any sort of a resolution is concerned.

They need to keep the threat over him to try to claw back some property. If they 'go nuclear' they will get nothing.

They went nuclear a long time ago. I can't see any way that he'll not end up inside unless because of his health.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 01, 2012, 11:15:43 AM
As predicted  -

IBRC has told the High Court steps are still being taken by on behalf of the Quinn family to put assets beyond the reach of the state bank.

The bank disputes the family's claim that they are powerless to unravel an asset stripping scheme and says it needs an expert in asset recovery to move in.

However it appears bankrupt businessman Seann Quinn may once again avoid jail.

The former Anglo Irish Bank is looking for more time to consider issues raised in last week's Supreme Court majority judgment in the appeal of his son Sean Quinn Jnr.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on November 02, 2012, 11:39:32 AM
9 weeks for Sean Snr...(edit) stayed pending a decision by Quinn on a possible appeal
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 02, 2012, 11:45:37 AM
Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne said she may grant a stay on the order pending a Supreme Court appeal and will hear submissions on this later today.

Lawyers for Mr Quinn said they needed to consult with him to see if he wants to begin his sentence today or appeal.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on November 02, 2012, 11:45:53 AM
Quote from: AQMP on November 02, 2012, 11:39:32 AM
9 weeks for Sean Snr...(edit) stayed pending a Supreme Court appeal being heard now.

This is just so wrong on so many levels. >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: give her dixie on November 02, 2012, 11:47:25 AM
Will any bankers go to jail????
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on November 02, 2012, 11:51:42 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 02, 2012, 11:45:53 AM
Quote from: AQMP on November 02, 2012, 11:39:32 AM
9 weeks for Sean Snr...(edit) stayed pending a Supreme Court appeal being heard now.

This is just so wrong on so many levels. >:(

Yep. Such is life in the Gombeenocracy. I suppose FF will be creeping towards 25% in the polls by Christmas time too. Pathetic and embarrassing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 11:56:35 AM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1102/breaking5.html

"The judge found contempt via his involvement in the assignment of multi-million loans and the backdating of documents with a view to showing the assignments occurred prior to the court orders. She also found contempt via his involvement in a €500,000 payment to Larissa Puga, general diredctor of Quin Properties Ukraine on the eve of the bank's takeover of that company"

I think this says it all in very few words :

https://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/quinn-family-held-in-contempt/

The Quinns were basically slow to react to their 'new' reality if they were ahead of the game and planned properly is there any chance they would be nabbed.


The Quinn béal bocht is very impressive but this year's euro 3.1 bn pound of flesh paid by taxpayers in respect of Anglo is entirely due to the Quinns. 

and before anyone says they had a great insurance company

http://www.tca.ie/images/uploaded/documents/2011%20Conference%20-%20Colm%20McCarthy%20slides.pdf
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hereiam on November 02, 2012, 12:13:53 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 02, 2012, 11:45:53 AM
Quote from: AQMP on November 02, 2012, 11:39:32 AM
9 weeks for Sean Snr...(edit) stayed pending a Supreme Court appeal being heard now.

This is just so wrong on so many levels. >:(

He should have got 9 yrs for the what he and his family have done.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on November 02, 2012, 12:22:08 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 02, 2012, 11:51:42 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 02, 2012, 11:45:53 AM
Quote from: AQMP on November 02, 2012, 11:39:32 AM
9 weeks for Sean Snr...(edit) stayed pending a Supreme Court appeal being heard now.

This is just so wrong on so many levels. >:(

Yep. Such is life in the Gombeenocracy. I suppose FF will be creeping towards 25% in the polls by Christmas time too. Pathetic and embarrassing.

The people out supporting Quinn just because he gave employment to the area, is "down to earth" and his brother was high up in the GAA are the bigger gombeens.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 12:36:03 PM
Yeah people supporting SQ is all about the jobs. Nothing to do with the fact that they have a genuine case against the actions of Anglo. It's just easier to try and block that out isn't it. Now that's what I call pathetic and embarrassing. 

But can have no arguments over the sentence. Knew it was coming.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on November 02, 2012, 12:41:59 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 02, 2012, 11:45:53 AM
Quote from: AQMP on November 02, 2012, 11:39:32 AM
9 weeks for Sean Snr...(edit) stayed pending a Supreme Court appeal being heard now.

This is just so wrong on so many levels. >:(
Yep, you'd probably get close to that for not paying your TV licence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on November 02, 2012, 12:43:01 PM
If he had got an additional half week, would there have been a biopic starring Mickey Rourke?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 12:53:11 PM
Yeah people supporting SQ is all about the jobs. Nothing to do with the fact that they have a genuine case against the actions of[u] Anglo[/u] the  PAYE taxpayer . It's just easier to try and block that out isn't it. Now that's what I call pathetic and embarrassing. 



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 01:13:04 PM
Don't forget that anyone with an insured car is paying for the Quinns via their insurance as well as via general taxation.
 
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0806/1224321565868.html

THE PRESIDENT of the High Court was rightly exasperated when presented last week with a revised estimate of the cost of funding Quinn Insurance, which is now in administration following its collapse. The money needed will be paid out of the Insurance Compensation Fund (ICF), and is being raised by a Government levy on motor and home insurance policyholders. The levy is required to meet expected claims on the fund and to cover the losses of Quinn Insurance. However, great uncertainty surrounds both the likely cost of these claims, and the length of time the levy may be in place. Mr Justice Kearns said the court was told initially the company would not need to rely on the ICF. Last October, the court learned that €738 million may be required from the fund. By last week that estimate had soared to €1.65 billion.

The Government has introduced a 2 per cent levy to raise €65 million annually to finance the ICF over a 12-year period. But as the judge pointed out, the levy – if the latest estimate is accurate - will last "in perpetuity". It would take 25 years to pay off that amount.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 12:53:11 PM
Yeah people supporting SQ is all about the jobs. Nothing to do with the fact that they have a genuine case against the actions of[u] Anglo[/u] the  PAYE taxpayer . It's just easier to try and block that out isn't it. Now that's what I call pathetic and embarrassing.

You do realise that what you did there makes no sense. Maybe you should stick with the cutting and pasting.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on November 02, 2012, 01:22:54 PM
According to the BBC Quinn will not appeal and will begin jail sentence today.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:26:27 PM
Is it not a case that he's going to start Jail today but is still appealing? The appeal was to overturn the conditions attached to the appeal. Similarly to the ones which were overturned by the Supreme court for Jr's case.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: arsecandle on November 02, 2012, 01:26:46 PM
have the riots started in ballyconnel yet?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on November 02, 2012, 01:27:24 PM
Quote from: AQMP on November 02, 2012, 01:22:54 PM
According to the BBC Quinn will not appeal and will begin jail sentence today.

I wonder will that CIC group of "concerned citizens" follow through on their threats to the State?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on November 02, 2012, 01:31:12 PM
Ex-billionaire Sean Quinn "has only himself to blame" for a nine-week jail sentence over his role in multimillion-euro asset-stripping activities, a High Court judge declared today.

The bankrupt businessman opted to go straight to prison for his "outrageous" contempt and for failing to untangle a scheme that put the family's €500m international property empire beyond the reach of the former Anglo Irish Bank.

The 66-year-old, who could have remained free until his Supreme Court appeal, was flanked by supporters in the High Court in Dublin, which was packed with barristers, onlookers and media.

Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne told Quinn he had committed a serious contempt of court which had been nothing short of outrageous, he had been evasive and uncooperative during the hearing, and his evidence was not credible.

The judge acknowledged the proceedings had negatively consumed his and his family's life.

"In my view, he has only himself to blame," she added.

The resigned-looking former cement, insurance and property tycoon cried as he held a crumpled tissue in his hand, looking straight ahead with his bloodshot eyes.

Barristers for Quinn, who will be freed on January 4, appealed for compassionate leave to attend a granddaughter's christening on December 23 – but the judge said that was a decision for the Prison Service.

Quinn Snr owes Anglo €2.8bn after running up unprecedented losses through secret stock investments in the bank as its share price collapsed.

The family admit they owe just €455m but have refused the claims on the rest and have taken a counter-case again the bank, rebranded the IBRC (Irish Bank Resolution Corporation), over a loans deal.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/quinn-has-only-himself-to-blame-as-he-begins-nine-week-jail-term-572722.html (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/quinn-has-only-himself-to-blame-as-he-begins-nine-week-jail-term-572722.html)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:32:53 PM
I don't believe the CIC threatened the state. IIRC they just mentioned that could be that possibility especially considering other action taken by people against the Quinn Group previously. You make it sound like the CIC are organising it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on November 02, 2012, 01:35:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:26:27 PM
Is it not a case that he's going to start Jail today but is still appealing? The appeal was to overturn the conditions attached to the appeal. Similarly to the ones which were overturned by the Supreme court for Jr's case.

Maybe...it's all getting confusing!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:37:22 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on November 02, 2012, 01:31:12 PM
Ex-billionaire Sean Quinn "has only himself to blame" for a nine-week jail sentence over his role in multimillion-euro asset-stripping activities, a High Court judge declared today.

The bankrupt businessman opted to go straight to prison for his "outrageous" contempt and for failing to untangle a scheme that put the family's €500m international property empire beyond the reach of the former Anglo Irish Bank.

The 66-year-old, who could have remained free until his Supreme Court appeal, was flanked by supporters in the High Court in Dublin, which was packed with barristers, onlookers and media.

Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne told Quinn he had committed a serious contempt of court which had been nothing short of outrageous, he had been evasive and uncooperative during the hearing, and his evidence was not credible.

The judge acknowledged the proceedings had negatively consumed his and his family's life.

"In my view, he has only himself to blame," she added.

The resigned-looking former cement, insurance and property tycoon cried as he held a crumpled tissue in his hand, looking straight ahead with his bloodshot eyes.

Barristers for Quinn, who will be freed on January 4, appealed for compassionate leave to attend a granddaughter's christening on December 23 – but the judge said that was a decision for the Prison Service.

Quinn Snr owes Anglo €2.8bn after running up unprecedented losses through secret stock investments in the bank as its share price collapsed.

The family admit they owe just €455m but have refused the claims on the rest and have taken a counter-case again the bank, rebranded the IBRC (Irish Bank Resolution Corporation), over a loans deal.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/quinn-has-only-himself-to-blame-as-he-begins-nine-week-jail-term-572722.html (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/quinn-has-only-himself-to-blame-as-he-begins-nine-week-jail-term-572722.html)

I take it Judge Dunne didn't take the time to explain her previous behaviour to the court? Did she try and explain her ridiculous conditions that she attached to Sean Quinn Jr's case that the Supreme court had to over rule? I'd say she didn't because if she gave the genuine reason she wouldn't be holding court again.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 01:43:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 12:53:11 PM
Yeah people supporting SQ is all about the jobs. Nothing to do with the fact that they have a genuine case against the actions of[u] Anglo[/u] the  PAYE taxpayer . It's just easier to try and block that out isn't it. Now that's what I call pathetic and embarrassing.

You do realise that what you did there makes no sense. Maybe you should stick with the cutting and pasting.
You do realise that debt can't be vanished away or blamed on D4 and then forgotten about, don't you? Who do you think pays for the 35 bn of losses incurred by Anglo? 

So if Quinn doesn't come up with the 500m that money will have to be taken out of future tax income.   

Any 26 county posters driving insured cars will be paying 2% of their annual insurance premium indefinitely as a silent and involuntary tribute to Sean Quinn's business expertise.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on November 02, 2012, 01:47:58 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:32:53 PM
I don't believe the CIC threatened the state. IIRC they just mentioned that could be that possibility especially considering other action taken by people against the Quinn Group previously. You make it sound like the CIC are organising it.

As I said before very Paisleyesque. The orange order never threatened the state but "if we don't get walking down the Garvaghey road bad things might happen"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:50:12 PM
I'm made the points regarding the Insurance fund on here previously and my opinion of that. Feel free to read back, and sure if you want you can paste it up here.
The losses of anglo will be paid for by the Tax payers. That decision had nothing to do with SQ. Feel free to take that up with your local TD.
The fact that the State had to nationalise Anglo doesn't mean that the Quinns don't have a case against them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on November 02, 2012, 01:58:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:50:12 PM
I'm made the points regarding the Insurance fund on here previously and my opinion of that. Feel free to read back, and sure if you want you can paste it up here.
The losses of anglo will be paid for by the Tax payers. That decision had nothing to do with SQ. Feel free to take that up with your local TD.
The fact that the State had to nationalise Anglo doesn't mean that the Quinns don't have a case against them.
The Quinns have a case and are perfectly entitled to pursue it, the sooner the better so this whole sorry mess can be aired and cleaned up and the wrongdoers (Seanie Fitz et al) punished. What they are not entitled to do is pre-judge the case and decide they do own the disputed assets and are not giving them back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 02:07:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:50:12 PM
I'm made the points regarding the Insurance fund on here previously and my opinion of that. Feel free to read back, and sure if you want you can paste it up here.
The losses of anglo will be paid for by the Tax payers. That decision had nothing to do with SQ. Feel free to take that up with your local TD.
The fact that the State had to nationalise Anglo doesn't mean that the Quinns don't have a case against them.

The State decides, Sars, and that is how the country works.

It's a real pity for Fermanagh and Cavan (and all the taxpayers everywhere else) that the local Gile Mear didn't understand insurance or high level finance but that is the way it was and it's time to move on and stop whining.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 02:09:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 02, 2012, 01:58:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:50:12 PM
I'm made the points regarding the Insurance fund on here previously and my opinion of that. Feel free to read back, and sure if you want you can paste it up here.
The losses of anglo will be paid for by the Tax payers. That decision had nothing to do with SQ. Feel free to take that up with your local TD.
The fact that the State had to nationalise Anglo doesn't mean that the Quinns don't have a case against them.
The Quinns have a case and are perfectly entitled to pursue it, the sooner the better so this whole sorry mess can be aired and cleaned up and the wrongdoers (Seanie Fitz et al) punished. What they are not entitled to do is pre-judge the case and decide they do own the disputed assets and are not giving them back.

Well they were entitled to protect assets that they had control over as long as they didn't break any laws. So any assets they moved before the injunction were fair game (And that's the majority of them). If Anglo made a move before they had confirmed full security over assets then they should have thought about that before they started. Remember the Quinns haven't be convicted of any criminal charges over the movement of assets. Granted I'll agree they should have stopped when the injunctions came in. But neither would they be under any obligation to make things easy for Anglo in trying to recover the assets, not considering the action anglo have taken against them.
And i would point out neither was Judge Dunne in a  position to demand the actions she did after Sean Jr's contempt cases. So when you are getting judgements like that, I don't blame the Quinns for believeing there is political influence being placed on the Anglo Quinn cases.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 02:12:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 02:07:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:50:12 PM
I'm made the points regarding the Insurance fund on here previously and my opinion of that. Feel free to read back, and sure if you want you can paste it up here.
The losses of anglo will be paid for by the Tax payers. That decision had nothing to do with SQ. Feel free to take that up with your local TD.
The fact that the State had to nationalise Anglo doesn't mean that the Quinns don't have a case against them.

The State decides, Sars, and that is how the country works.

It's a real pity for Fermanagh and Cavan (and all the taxpayers everywhere else) that the local Gile Mear didn't understand insurance or high level finance but that is the way it was and it's time to move on and stop whining.

Yes the state decides. It's just a pity the state has a vested interest in which side wins this fight. Doesn't really lend itself to a fair ruling does it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on November 02, 2012, 02:15:50 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 02:09:45 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 02, 2012, 01:58:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:50:12 PM
I'm made the points regarding the Insurance fund on here previously and my opinion of that. Feel free to read back, and sure if you want you can paste it up here.
The losses of anglo will be paid for by the Tax payers. That decision had nothing to do with SQ. Feel free to take that up with your local TD.
The fact that the State had to nationalise Anglo doesn't mean that the Quinns don't have a case against them.
The Quinns have a case and are perfectly entitled to pursue it, the sooner the better so this whole sorry mess can be aired and cleaned up and the wrongdoers (Seanie Fitz et al) punished. What they are not entitled to do is pre-judge the case and decide they do own the disputed assets and are not giving them back.

Well they were entitled to protect assets that they had control over as long as they didn't break any laws. So any assets they moved before the injunction were fair game (And that's the majority of them). If Anglo made a move before they had confirmed full security over assets then they should have thought about that before they started. Remember the Quinns haven't be convicted of any criminal charges over the movement of assets. Granted I'll agree they should have stopped when the injunctions came in. But neither would they be under any obligation to make things easy for Anglo in trying to recover the assets, not considering the action anglo have taken against them.
And i would point out neither was Judge Dunne in a  position to demand the actions she did after Sean Jr's contempt cases. So when you are getting judgements like that, I don't blame the Quinns for believeing there is political influence being placed on the Anglo Quinn cases.

And who is behind this political influence? The govt call the moves of the justice system?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 02:17:57 PM
Yes, that's what they believe.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 02:12:53 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 02:07:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:50:12 PM
I'm made the points regarding the Insurance fund on here previously and my opinion of that. Feel free to read back, and sure if you want you can paste it up here.
The losses of anglo will be paid for by the Tax payers. That decision had nothing to do with SQ. Feel free to take that up with your local TD.
The fact that the State had to nationalise Anglo doesn't mean that the Quinns don't have a case against them.

The State decides, Sars, and that is how the country works.

It's a real pity for Fermanagh and Cavan (and all the taxpayers everywhere else) that the local Gile Mear didn't understand insurance or high level finance but that is the way it was and it's time to move on and stop whining.

Yes the state decides. It's just a pity the state has a vested interest in which side wins this fight. Doesn't really lend itself to a fair ruling does it.
In this case the state represents the people. Do you not think enough people have had to emigrate already without the Quinns forcing another 500m onto a bankrupt state ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 02:29:29 PM
So the rights of the individual goes out the window? Because multiple tax payers may benefit, The Quinns should drop any legitimate issue they had with anglo and just take the hit? Do you seriously believe anyone would do that?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 02, 2012, 02:37:47 PM
What a pity the fcukin Quinns wouldn't just go and pay their debts and then fcuk off to live off their interest the way all rich chancers do.
For a crowd that's "broke" they seem to be able to hire an awful lot of lawyers.
I'm sick of the whining cnuts and their apologists.
He gambled on a dodgy scheme and lost.
Tough luck ya oul greedy bollx.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 02:40:23 PM
I was wondering when you would appear. Your slowing down.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 02, 2012, 02:47:25 PM
I have work to do to try and keep an oul job going.
I am sick listening to those whingin Quinn cnuts and their barrister certainly took the biscuit yesterday  - "poor SQ -a frail poor oul man sure he couldn't be put in jail"
He'll be calling in the V de P or Simon next. >:( >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 02, 2012, 03:01:12 PM
Jim Fitzpatrick doing somersaults today.


The inevitability of Sean Quinn's jailing at the hands of Mrs Justice Dunne, does not diminish the jaw-dropping shock at seeing him taken from the Four Courts to Mountjoy jail in a prison van.

People talk about the ongoing Quinn saga, but this tale is much more in the mould of Greek tragedy than Norse myth.

The fates decreed that the man who once was Ireland's richest, would end up in prison, because all the other elements of Greek tragedy were there from the beginning.

The first is hamartia - a tragic human flaw.

In Sean Quinn's case it was his exceptional greed. He was keenly aware of this character flaw, but instead saw it at as a positive.

He famously told an audience at the height of his power: "I suppose I was always very greedy. I was never happy with what we had, and I was always looking for new opportunities."

Greed served him well up to a point - fashioning a manufacturing giant from the very sand that lay beneath his family farm. It was tangible success with tangible products - you can't get more concrete than, well, concrete.

But as he sought those new opportunities his greed began to take him towards the intangible - insurance, shares, derivatives - where the seeds of his destruction were sown.

Debts

When he placed the biggest financial bet in Irish history - on the bank he then loved, Anglo Irish - he was already Ireland's richest man. Had his bet come good he would have placed himself between Roman Abramovich and the Duke of Westminster as the UK's third richest person with a fortune of £8bn or more.

But it didn't come good. It went bad. Very bad. And he turned to the bank he had bet on for help.

Either it lent him the money to pay his debts, or they were both going down together. He mortgaged his empire to the tune of 2.8bn euros.

It wasn't just the biggest financial bet in Irish history, it was the riskiest. That level of risk suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the intangible Contracts for Difference that comprised the bet.

CFDs allow buyers to put a deposit down to gain control over shares - therefore with, say, 20% of the money they get all the increase in value on 100% of the shares should they go up. But if they go down, they suffer 100% of the loss.

And as more facts emerge about the history of under-provisioning and risk-taking at Quinn Insurance, it is hard not to conclude that Sean Quinn should have taken that most basic business advice to heart and stuck to what he knew.

A chain of events unfolded leading to the insurance business being taken from him by the regulator and ultimately the entire company as Anglo sought security over its debts.

Dramatic

But it's worth remembering that this didn't happen overnight. Sean Quinn was only deposed in April 2011 - years after the fateful bet. And it was during this period that the border tycoon displayed the another key element of Greek tragedy - hubris.

A senior businessman who knows Quinn told me that during the fraught negotiations with the bank that preceded his downfall, Sean Quinn confided in him.

This confidante was shocked by his attitude: "They'll never take it away from me. I'm too big for that", he reportedly said.

But Ireland had changed. It wasn't just regime change at the bank. It had been all change at the regulatory authorities and dramatic change in government too.

The rules of the business game in Ireland were not the same and Sean Quinn didn't see it. He over-negotiated on the terms of his exit and lost it all as a result.

Next, a combination of greed and anger propelled Sean Quinn to take the actions that ultimately led to the catastrophe he is experiencing today. His decision to sanction, support and add his signature to a plan to take half a billion euros worth of assets back from the bank that now owned them was his most ill-judged move to date.

The Quinn family argues that the "big case" regarding the legality of Anglo loans needs to be determined first before any action is taken to recover disputed assets.

But until a court says otherwise - and none has - those assets are only disputed in the minds of the Quinns and their supporters. Taking them now, and the income that flows from them, is illegal. And to do so on the basis of a future court decision finding in your favour is self-contradictory and absurd.

Emotions

So Sean Quinn goes to jail for contempt of court and could yet face more serious criminal charges that would keep him there for some time.

It is a truly tragic fall from power. There were distressing scenes in court as the former billionaire was taken away. Supporters and Sean Quinn crying real tears. But there is no sign of any awareness of how alien his actions appear to the vast majority of his fellow Irish citizens. Perhaps that will come.

And as for that wider population: does the imprisonment of the mighty Quinn and the faltering recovery of those international assets that now belong to the state-owned bank, bring catharsis, the healing and purging of emotions that the Greek writers would have liked?

That too, remains an unanswered question. This tragedy has a number of further acts to play out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 03:03:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 02, 2012, 02:47:25 PM
I have work to do to try and keep an oul job going.
I am sick listening to those whingin Quinn cnuts and their barrister certainly took the biscuit yesterday  - "poor SQ -a frail poor oul man sure he couldn't be put in jail"
He'll be calling in the V de P or Simon next. >:( >:(

He's had two heart operations and is under a serious amount of stress regardless of whether you like him or not. Hardly surprising that this was brought up and taken into account by the judge.
But I don't understand, if your sick listening to it, why do you? Why force it on yourself? Why not ignore it?  ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 03:20:10 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 02:29:29 PM
So the rights of the individual goes out the window? Because multiple tax payers may benefit, The Quinns should drop any legitimate issue they had with anglo and just take the hit? Do you seriously believe anyone would do that?
They don't have a leg to stand on. It is over. Fermanagh have as much chance of winning this year's all ireland as the Quinns have of winning.

It is very sad but that's life. Meanwhile Ireland may well have a sovereign default on the back of Quinn and the other Anglo chancers. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 03:23:57 PM
Are you serious? Even the press accept that the Quinns have a case in regards to share support. Are you seriously saying that you don't believe there was share support? I mean seriously?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 03:33:40 PM
It's interesting reading the start of the thread and comparing it to now where supersarsfields is surrounded by hostile Injuns and the sherrif has just brought SQ to the county jail. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 02, 2012, 03:35:17 PM
Speaking to reporters before he was taken to a holding cell in the Four Courts, Quinn said the media had been "led by the nose" and said many questions remained about how IBRC had conducted itself.

He said there was an obligation on IBRC, which was acting on behalf of the Government, to fight the case honourably.

Quinn said IBRC had taken all his money, his companies, his reputation and had thrown him in jail, yet it had not proven that any money was owed or that they were right to appoint a receiver to his companies.

When asked how he felt on being sent to prison over Christmas, Quinn said when you had a wife, five children and grandchildren you did not need to be asked that.

He said: "For 64 of my 66 years I made very little mistakes. I ran my business very very well.

"Did I make mistakes in the last two years? Did my family make mistakes in the last two years? Yes, I did.

"Do I apologise here now in public for that? Yes, I do.

"Is it small fry compared to the overall assault that has been launched on us and taking over our companies and destroying them? It's an absolute disaster."

He said the biggest loss-maker in the history of the State was the State itself.

Quinn's comments to the media were interrupted by a garda who placed his hand on Mr Quinn's left arm and asked him to come with him.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 03:36:59 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 03:33:40 PM
It's interesting reading the start of the thread and comparing it to now where supersarsfields is surrounded by hostile Injuns and the sherrif has just brought SQ to the county jail. 

No answer then. Surprise that. Could you not have at least cut and pasted something instead?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: arsecandle on November 02, 2012, 03:58:36 PM
i hope seanie spends those nine weeks behind bars gettin shafted the same way his family have shafted the irish motorist for the next 30 years plus.
in other news peter daragh quinn is still being the cowardly little shite he is
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 04:02:43 PM
Quote from: AQMP on November 02, 2012, 01:35:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 01:26:27 PM
Is it not a case that he's going to start Jail today but is still appealing? The appeal was to overturn the conditions attached to the appeal. Similarly to the ones which were overturned by the Supreme court for Jr's case.

Maybe...it's all getting confusing!

I think the appeal is still going ahead. Pencilled in for Thursday next week.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 04:09:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 03:23:57 PM
Are you serious? Even the press accept that the Quinns have a case in regards to share support. Are you seriously saying that you don't believe there was share support? I mean seriously?
Apart from the Impartial Reporter what press would that be?

If Quinn couldn't win his argument in court I'm afraid that is it.
I believe Quinn lost 2.8bn and that the money is now the responsibility of the taxpayer.

BTW SQ said the media had been led by the nose. Would that be the press ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 04:15:06 PM
Sars

Why don't you do a poll on the board, ask everyone their county and then see what everyone thinks ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 04:18:49 PM
You really don't understand do you? Virtually all the press say that the Quinns have a case regarding the share support, Even SQ's Nemesis Jim Fizpatrick in the BBC acknowledged that, Vicent brown discussed it at length on his show as well and the impact of what happens if the Quinns win.
The Quinn's couldn't win the case yet alright. That's because it's scheduled for next year.  ::)

You are making it quite plain that you don't have a clue with regards to the overall argument.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 04:28:53 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 04:18:49 PM
You really don't understand do you? Virtually all the press say that the Quinns have a case regarding the share support, Even SQ's Nemesis Jim Fizpatrick in the BBC acknowledged that, Vicent brown discussed it at length on his show as well and the impact of what happens if the Quinns win.
The Quinn's couldn't win the case yet alright. That's because it's scheduled for next year.  ::)

You are making it quite plain that you don't have a clue with regards to the overall argument.
Sars

I appreciate that you are very loyal to the Quinns but you'll have to do better than VB and whoever the other fella is.
Won't the Quinns still be in prison next year anyway ?

the overall argument is fairly obvious. SQ sailed too close to the edge with the insurance company. The cost is around 1.6bn.
He made a big bet on Anglo and it went south. 2.8bn Now he wants the people to stump up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 04:42:41 PM
My loyality to the Quinns has nothing to do with the fact that you've shown you really don't know squat about the whole Quinn Anglo row, if you think it was only a bet that went wrong. There's a little more to it than that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 05:03:49 PM
Sars

I admire your perseverance. This reminded me of the Quinns

•   As James Buchan has observed, "lachrymose intransigence" is the Islamic Republic's favored mode. It does not get Iran very far.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
Good man. I admire your ignorance (And your cut and paste ability).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 05:25:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
Good man. I admire your ignorance (And your cut and paste ability).
Sars. There is no need to turn ignorant. You don't do your arguments any justice.
And what is the problem with pasting info? Do you have to be from Derrylin to have an opinion?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Wildweasel74 on November 02, 2012, 07:32:05 PM
the end of the day, greed got the better of him, happens to us all, except we dont gamble the way he did. I bought a house during the boom period, house now £60,000 less when i brought it. I needed to move out, paid the going rate at the time. Who's to blame, the bank for giving me the mortgage, the estate agent for over pricing houses or me who took the gamble and bought the house. Out of all mentioned the blame likely lies with me, no-one forced S Quinn to go down the route he did, he made a choice. It is easy for people in Cavan and fermanagh to blame the state for the current state of affairs (possible loss of jobs etc) but at the end of the day Sean got the ball rolling and its all coming home to roost now. Personally there is a hell of alot bankers out there who should be where he is at now, along with a number of other high profile cases. I think alot of people are picking on the fact that Sean Quinn seems to be the only big name been hounded down,which is partially truth., why the rest aren't receiving the same treatment beats me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 09:43:35 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 05:25:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
Good man. I admire your ignorance (And your cut and paste ability).
Sars. There is no need to turn ignorant. You don't do your arguments any justice.
And what is the problem with pasting info? Do you have to be from Derrylin to have an opinion?
I wasn't being rude. I'm just making the point that you clearly did know the Quinns cases hadn't even been heard yet, so I'm guessing your lacking in at least some of the details regarding this. And tbh I don't particular like how you insinuating that the only reason I'm supporting the Quinns is because I'm blinded by loyalty.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 10:11:16 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 04:42:41 PM
My loyality to the Quinns has nothing to do with the fact that you've shown you really don't know squat about the whole Quinn Anglo row, if you think it was only a bet that went wrong. There's a little more to it than that.
That's way off, Sars. There were several bets and there was contempt of court and contempt for the small people who pay tax.  The total amount that the taxpayer/car driving community has been shafted with is 1.6bn for the insurance and 455m owed to Anglo (no question according to the judge)  plus there is another 2.4bn that has to be sorted out in court .

Why doesn't everyone who bought a house in 2007 get compensated like you think Quinn should for making the wrong call on an investment? 

And accusing the court of being political is a joke. None of it is Quinn's fault , of course . And the people can pay for whatever.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 10:26:33 PM
Sars

"Quinn said IBRC had taken all his money, his companies, his reputation and had thrown him in jail, yet it had not proven that any money was owed or that they were right to appoint a receiver to his companies."

Judge Dunne says there is no question that that Quinn owes IBRC 455m with another 2.4bn the subject of a serious dispute

http://www.rte.ie/player/ch/show/10070443/

How much does Quinn owe IBRC in your view?   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 10:33:13 PM
They owed 455m undisputed. Of which they have recovered all assets that the 455m were linked to and more. Do you know the value of the Group which they have taken control of? I'll give u a clue, Quinn glass alone is about 400 million.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 10:38:03 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 10:11:16 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 04:42:41 PM
My loyality to the Quinns has nothing to do with the fact that you've shown you really don't know squat about the whole Quinn Anglo row, if you think it was only a bet that went wrong. There's a little more to it than that.
That's way off, Sars. There were several bets and there was contempt of court and contempt for the small people who pay tax.  The total amount that the taxpayer/car driving community has been shafted with is 1.6bn for the insurance and 455m owed to Anglo (no question according to the judge)  plus there is another 2.4bn that has to be sorted out in court .

Why doesn't everyone who bought a house in 2007 get compensated like you think Quinn should for making the wrong call on an investment? 

And accusing the court of being political is a joke. None of it is Quinn's fault , of course . And the people can pay for whatever.

That's your opinion. Unfortunately due the actions of Judge Dunne that had to be over ruled by the Supreme Court I'd call serious questions over her actions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Syferus on November 02, 2012, 10:47:21 PM
Can't believe the Quinns get any support at this point.  Senior is a nice lad by all accounts but he made wrong choices and won't man up and accept the deserved punishments without excuses or spin. The whiter than white stuff only washes with the few remaining true believers.

The poster children for the failure of the Celtic Tiger.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2012, 10:55:46 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 10:33:13 PM
They owed 455m undisputed. Of which they have recovered all assets that the 455m were linked to and more. Do you know the value of the Group which they have taken control of? I'll give u a clue, Quinn glass alone is about 400 million.
How much is the group worth in total in your view ?

Forget about the insurance for a minute.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2012, 11:05:09 PM
Not sure what the group would be worth in total when everything is included. But considering it was estimated to make 80m profit this year I would hazard a guess at more than 455 m. And that's before you take into account the hotels like the Hilton Prague and the Russell among others.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 03, 2012, 10:56:02 AM
Anglo have spent €80m pursuing the Quinns so far. And we're only part the way through the case.


BANKRUPT businessman Sean Quinn says he is ready for jail as he began his nine-week sentence for "outrageous" contempt of court.

In an exclusive interview with the Irish Independent before being jailed, the former billionaire said: "Whatever happens, I want to move on. I am ready for this day."

Mr Quinn will spend his 67th birthday and Christmas Day as prisoner 82809 in Mountjoy unless he can get release on compassionate grounds.

Proceedings

It's also emerged that the former Anglo Irish Bank has spent €80m in the proceedings against the Quinns.

At the same time, the bank is no closer to recovering the family's massive overseas property empire, once valued at €500m.

The former tycoon was jailed for contempt after breaching court orders not to interfere with the Quinn family's international property portfolio.

Mr Quinn is not due for release until January 4, and unlike his fellow prisoners he will not entitled to early release for good behaviour as there is no remission for those convicted of contempt.

As well as Christmas, he could also miss his granddaughter's christening on December 22.

The Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, formerly Anglo, has revealed it will face further potential losses of up to €50m as it adopts a new strategy to recover the Quinns' foreign properties.

Finance Minister Michael Noonan has given his approval to a new joint venture between the state-owned lender and a Russian asset recovery firm.

The move will require an initial €31m cash boost that could rise to more than €50m as the bank tries to recover $315m (€245m) worth of assets.

The jailing of Mr Quinn followed a dramatic and highly emotional day at the Four Courts where he and his supporters shed tears as he was led into custody.

High Court judge Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne, who previously sentenced Sean Quinn Jnr to three months in jail for contempt, said she could not ignore the extent and degree of contempt by Mr Quinn.

Taking all matters into account, including mitigating factors such as his health problems, age, previous good character, charitable donations and "a degree" of co-operation by him, she imposed a nine-week jail term.

Ms Justice Dunne said that although Mr Quinn had spoken recently in court papers about how the proceedings had negatively consumed his life and that of his family, he has only himself to blame.

"It is important to ensure that orders of the court are complied with and that the integrity of the court system is not set at naught by an egregious breach of a court order," said Ms Justice Dunne.

Before he was taken into custody, a tearful Mr Quinn said that while he had made some mistakes in recent years, the case against him and his family was "a charade".

As he left court Sean Quinn Jnr, who was recently released from Mountjoy, insisted his father had done nothing wrong.

"It's a very sad day to see dad jailed at the behest of Anglo Irish Bank, the very bank who ruined this country," said Mr Quinn Jnr.

"He is a father, grandfather and husband and he will be dearly missed during this time," he added.

The IBRC and the wider Quinn family did not comment on the dramatic developments in court.

But Taoiseach Enda Kenny waded into the high-profile legal drama when he warned that people have to co-operate fully with the courts.

Mr Kenny said the decision of the High Court spoke for itself.

"Let me repeat again that it's absolutely necessary where court inquiries are taking place about banking issues that people would always and should always co-operate fully in that regard," he said after the conclusion of the North-South ministerial council in Armagh.

When asked if he was personally sympathetic with Mr Quinn for getting a jail sentence, Mr Kenny brought up the 2pc insurance levy imposed on all home, motor and commercial insurance policies to pay for the Quinn Insurance bailout.

"There's no doubt the Quinn family created obviously a great deal of jobs over the years. But you have to bear in mind as well that for instance, the consequences of the insurance levy will hit every driver for the next two decades," he said.

Blame

Speaking at the same event, the North's Deputy First Minister, Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness, opted to praise Mr Quinn's job creation record and to blame the banks for his predicament -- the standard line for Quinn supporters.

"I don't think anybody that has commented on the career of Sean Quinn has disputed in any way the remarkable contribution that he made towards the employment prospects of people in the border counties, and many people have rightly applauded him for giving those people employment.

"I can't comment on a court case as a minister, I think it would be totally inappropriate other than to say that I think that the banks have an awful lot to answer for," he said.

- Dearbhail McDonald, Breda Heffernan and Michael Brennan

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on November 03, 2012, 01:18:53 PM
What a great name for a judge, though - Miss Justice Dunne.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 03, 2012, 01:57:56 PM
Quote from: Hardy on November 03, 2012, 01:18:53 PM
What a great name for a judge, though - Miss Justice Dunne.

I think Great Injustice Dunne may be more applicable in this case
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Don Johnson on November 04, 2012, 10:59:29 PM
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2b2n4h.jpg)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: DuffleKing on November 05, 2012, 12:50:05 AM
FFS
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: OverThePostsAWide on November 05, 2012, 12:52:22 AM
Holy fcuk Don, do you get out of Derrylin much?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 05, 2012, 12:54:00 AM
Quote from: Don Johnson on November 04, 2012, 10:59:29 PM
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2b2n4h.jpg)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 05, 2012, 09:22:15 AM
There's a protest going on in Derrylin at the minute. Road to the Quinn Group properties blocked of.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: OverThePostsAWide on November 05, 2012, 09:43:17 AM
And every right thinking man and woman should be with them 100%. End this evil apartheid regime now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 05, 2012, 11:05:26 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2012, 09:22:15 AM
There's a protest going on in Derrylin at the minute. Road to the Quinn Group properties blocked of.

Aye indeed. That will make them hoors in Dublin/Brussels/Frankfurt/wherever quake in their boots.
Meanwhile the poor harmless Quinns have to make do on €10k per month each or something like that.

When will the poor dupes cop on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thebigfella on November 05, 2012, 11:11:09 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 05, 2012, 11:05:26 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2012, 09:22:15 AM
There's a protest going on in Derrylin at the minute. Road to the Quinn Group properties blocked of.

Aye indeed. That will make them hoors in Dublin/Brussels/Frankfurt/wherever quake in their boots.
Meanwhile the poor harmless Quinns have to make do on €10k per month each or something like that.

When will the poor dupes cop on.

From BBC, "In a statement, the protesters demanded his release and mediated talks between the Quinn family and IBRC, the former Anglo Irish Bank."

FFS cop on, they should all be locked up too. Have none of them any jobs to go to either? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 05, 2012, 11:17:59 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 05, 2012, 11:05:26 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2012, 09:22:15 AM
There's a protest going on in Derrylin at the minute. Road to the Quinn Group properties blocked of.

Aye indeed. That will make them hoors in Dublin/Brussels/Frankfurt/wherever quake in their boots.
Meanwhile the poor harmless Quinns have to make do on €10k per month each or something like that.

When will the poor dupes cop on.

Sure it'll p1ss of Anglo IBRC anyway.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 05, 2012, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2012, 11:17:59 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 05, 2012, 11:05:26 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2012, 09:22:15 AM
There's a protest going on in Derrylin at the minute. Road to the Quinn Group properties blocked of.

Aye indeed. That will make them hoors in Dublin/Brussels/Frankfurt/wherever quake in their boots.
Meanwhile the poor harmless Quinns have to make do on €10k per month each or something like that.

When will the poor dupes cop on.

Sure it'll p1ss of Anglo IBRC anyway.

Aye. It also might catch the eye of Liberty Mutual bosses, who could start to wonder if Cavan is a good place for them to do business. After all, who's to say that they won't be blockaded next?

And yet, I've no doubt that if LM announced tomorrow that they were relocating, you can be damn sure these protesters wouldn't be holding their hands up and saying "My bad".

This is idiotic and counterproductive in the extreme, and I really hope that no more jobs are lost because of this grossly stupid gesture.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 05, 2012, 12:04:22 PM
Sure everyone should just lie back and do/say nothing that'll do the trick.  :o

Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 05, 2012, 12:12:39 PM
Is this what passes as "journalism" today ?

This is simply pathetic.





POOR QUINNS WITH MERCS AND ABERCROMBIE JUMPERS


They claim to have been left almost impoverished by the actions of Anglo Irish Bank – but yesterday, the Quinn family didn't look as if they were suffering too greatly in material terms.
Seán Quinn Jr arrived at Mountjoy Prison sporting a bang-on-trend Abercrombie & Fitch top. The American retailer – beloved of teenagers and wealthy trendsetters – opened its first Irish store only this week.

On Thursday, crowds gathered to queue outside the Abercrombie store on Dublin's College Green for its opening. As the scent of its trademark cologne Fierce wafted through the shop, customers clamoured to buy items such as €24 boxer-briefs and €68 tracksuit pants.

Seán Jr hadn't been spotted among the queues at the Abercrombie store this week, so maybe he picked up the navy blue jumper with the much-sought-after 'A&F 1892' logo on one of his many previous travels. (Abercrombie is also big among the newly rich of Moscow).

In another sign that the Quinns, despite their financial and legal troubles, are weathering the situation well, Seán Jr and his wife rolled up to the north inner-city prison in a high-performance Mercedes CLS which had been customised by the specialised firm AMG.
AMG models are typically the most expensive and highest-performance of each Mercedes class – although this one did date back as far as 2007.

Back then, it would almost certainly have cost in excess of €100,000 – and would still be worth some €50,000 today.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ireland/article-2227552/Se-n-Quinn-Sr-settling-prison-life-well.html#ixzz2BLjBwm9S
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 05, 2012, 12:17:21 PM
TBH Loan Shark I'd agree (Take a screen shot!!). I can't see any benefit in the protests. I know there's a lot of very angry people and they're doing it to put pressure on Anglo and try and focus attention on the questions that haven't been answered. I don't know if ICC are involved in this or not but perhaps had Enda Kenny or at least some of the political representatives agreed to meet with them to discuss their issues maybe things wouldn't have taken protests.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on November 05, 2012, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 05, 2012, 12:12:39 PM
Is this what passes as "journalism" today ?

This is simply pathetic.





POOR QUINNS WITH MERCS AND ABERCROMBIE JUMPERS


They claim to have been left almost impoverished by the actions of Anglo Irish Bank – but yesterday, the Quinn family didn't look as if they were suffering too greatly in material terms.
Seán Quinn Jr arrived at Mountjoy Prison sporting a bang-on-trend Abercrombie & Fitch top. The American retailer – beloved of teenagers and wealthy trendsetters – opened its first Irish store only this week.

On Thursday, crowds gathered to queue outside the Abercrombie store on Dublin's College Green for its opening. As the scent of its trademark cologne Fierce wafted through the shop, customers clamoured to buy items such as €24 boxer-briefs and €68 tracksuit pants.

Seán Jr hadn't been spotted among the queues at the Abercrombie store this week, so maybe he picked up the navy blue jumper with the much-sought-after 'A&F 1892' logo on one of his many previous travels. (Abercrombie is also big among the newly rich of Moscow).

In another sign that the Quinns, despite their financial and legal troubles, are weathering the situation well, Seán Jr and his wife rolled up to the north inner-city prison in a high-performance Mercedes CLS which had been customised by the specialised firm AMG.
AMG models are typically the most expensive and highest-performance of each Mercedes class – although this one did date back as far as 2007.

Back then, it would almost certainly have cost in excess of €100,000 – and would still be worth some €50,000 today.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ireland/article-2227552/Se-n-Quinn-Sr-settling-prison-life-well.html#ixzz2BLjBwm9S
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Poor journalism indeed!

However you can't argue with the image of one of the Quinn's getting out of a €100k car when they're crying poverty and putting assets beyond the reach of the Taxpayer . . .  He's some dickhead to still be driving around in that!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 05, 2012, 12:49:32 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 05, 2012, 12:12:39 PM
Is this what passes as "journalism" today ?

This is simply pathetic.





POOR QUINNS WITH MERCS AND ABERCROMBIE JUMPERS


They claim to have been left almost impoverished by the actions of Anglo Irish Bank – but yesterday, the Quinn family didn't look as if they were suffering too greatly in material terms.
Seán Quinn Jr arrived at Mountjoy Prison sporting a bang-on-trend Abercrombie & Fitch top. The American retailer – beloved of teenagers and wealthy trendsetters – opened its first Irish store only this week.

On Thursday, crowds gathered to queue outside the Abercrombie store on Dublin's College Green for its opening. As the scent of its trademark cologne Fierce wafted through the shop, customers clamoured to buy items such as €24 boxer-briefs and €68 tracksuit pants.

Seán Jr hadn't been spotted among the queues at the Abercrombie store this week, so maybe he picked up the navy blue jumper with the much-sought-after 'A&F 1892' logo on one of his many previous travels. (Abercrombie is also big among the newly rich of Moscow).

In another sign that the Quinns, despite their financial and legal troubles, are weathering the situation well, Seán Jr and his wife rolled up to the north inner-city prison in a high-performance Mercedes CLS which had been customised by the specialised firm AMG.
AMG models are typically the most expensive and highest-performance of each Mercedes class – although this one did date back as far as 2007.

Back then, it would almost certainly have cost in excess of €100,000 – and would still be worth some €50,000 today.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ireland/article-2227552/Se-n-Quinn-Sr-settling-prison-life-well.html#ixzz2BLjBwm9S
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Of course it's muck. But this is going on for both sides. All the PR about the "simple life" of SQ is optics. The farcical focus on the price of this infamous wedding cake is optics. The constant use of the inflammatory word "Anglo" instead of IBRC is all about optics. The two sides are playing the game and the sad fact is that public opinion will be swayed by this. The vast majority of the public have taken a snapshot of this whole sorry affair and don't have the interest or the will to delve into the matter and examine the facts of the case.

Witness the fact that people are bemoaning how SQ has been "jailed" for his financial dealings, when in actual fact he's been jailed for contempt of the court - a very serious issue. Equally Enda's referring to the insurance levy is something of a red herring. The shocking administration of Quinn insurance is an issue all by itself, but that's nothing to do with why SQ is in jail now either.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on November 05, 2012, 12:49:49 PM
(http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/Hardyarse/twobs.png)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hound on November 05, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 05, 2012, 12:49:32 PM

Witness the fact that people are bemoaning how SQ has been "jailed" for his financial dealings, when in actual fact he's been jailed for contempt of the court - a very serious issue.

It gas that all the eejits who support Quinn miss this.

Quinn is not going to jail for his financial dealings, because (like most of the dreaded bankers) while he was greedy and pompous and stupid, there's no evidence yet that he did anything against the law in creating all those losses.

But the contempt of court - in which he misappropriated millions of euro - was a clear criminal offence. He 100% deserves his spell in prison for this. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 05, 2012, 01:11:10 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 05, 2012, 12:49:32 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 05, 2012, 12:12:39 PM
Is this what passes as "journalism" today ?

This is simply pathetic.





POOR QUINNS WITH MERCS AND ABERCROMBIE JUMPERS


They claim to have been left almost impoverished by the actions of Anglo Irish Bank – but yesterday, the Quinn family didn't look as if they were suffering too greatly in material terms.
Seán Quinn Jr arrived at Mountjoy Prison sporting a bang-on-trend Abercrombie & Fitch top. The American retailer – beloved of teenagers and wealthy trendsetters – opened its first Irish store only this week.

On Thursday, crowds gathered to queue outside the Abercrombie store on Dublin's College Green for its opening. As the scent of its trademark cologne Fierce wafted through the shop, customers clamoured to buy items such as €24 boxer-briefs and €68 tracksuit pants.

Seán Jr hadn't been spotted among the queues at the Abercrombie store this week, so maybe he picked up the navy blue jumper with the much-sought-after 'A&F 1892' logo on one of his many previous travels. (Abercrombie is also big among the newly rich of Moscow).

In another sign that the Quinns, despite their financial and legal troubles, are weathering the situation well, Seán Jr and his wife rolled up to the north inner-city prison in a high-performance Mercedes CLS which had been customised by the specialised firm AMG.
AMG models are typically the most expensive and highest-performance of each Mercedes class – although this one did date back as far as 2007.

Back then, it would almost certainly have cost in excess of €100,000 – and would still be worth some €50,000 today.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ireland/article-2227552/Se-n-Quinn-Sr-settling-prison-life-well.html#ixzz2BLjBwm9S
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Of course it's muck. But this is going on for both sides. All the PR about the "simple life" of SQ is optics. The farcical focus on the price of this infamous wedding cake is optics. The constant use of the inflammatory word "Anglo" instead of IBRC is all about optics. The two sides are playing the game and the sad fact is that public opinion will be swayed by this. The vast majority of the public have taken a snapshot of this whole sorry affair and don't have the interest or the will to delve into the matter and examine the facts of the case.

Witness the fact that people are bemoaning how SQ has been "jailed" for his financial dealings, when in actual fact he's been jailed for contempt of the court - a very serious issue. Equally Enda's referring to the insurance levy is something of a red herring. The shocking administration of Quinn insurance is an issue all by itself, but that's nothing to do with why SQ is in jail now either.

LS -

You make some good points, partucularly about the media spin or optics as you refer to.

We all know why Quinns will want their slant on the story and that they are peddling their side of the story to the media.

But who is driving the IRBC / Anglo side ? Why the witch hunt about Abercrombie jumpers and a 5 year old AMG Mercedes and a wedding cake ?.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oakleafgael on November 05, 2012, 01:12:00 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 05, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 05, 2012, 12:49:32 PM

Witness the fact that people are bemoaning how SQ has been "jailed" for his financial dealings, when in actual fact he's been jailed for contempt of the court - a very serious issue.

It gas that all the eejits who support Quinn miss this.

Quinn is not going to jail for his financial dealings, because (like most of the dreaded bankers) while he was greedy and pompous and stupid, there's no evidence yet that he did anything against the law in creating all those losses.

But the contempt of court - in which he misappropriated millions of euro - was a clear criminal offence. He 100% deserves his spell in prison for this.

If it was a criminal offence then his nephew would be extradited for the same. Eeejit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on November 05, 2012, 01:13:04 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 05, 2012, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 05, 2012, 12:12:39 PM
Is this what passes as "journalism" today ?

This is simply pathetic.





POOR QUINNS WITH MERCS AND ABERCROMBIE JUMPERS


They claim to have been left almost impoverished by the actions of Anglo Irish Bank – but yesterday, the Quinn family didn't look as if they were suffering too greatly in material terms.
Seán Quinn Jr arrived at Mountjoy Prison sporting a bang-on-trend Abercrombie & Fitch top. The American retailer – beloved of teenagers and wealthy trendsetters – opened its first Irish store only this week.

On Thursday, crowds gathered to queue outside the Abercrombie store on Dublin's College Green for its opening. As the scent of its trademark cologne Fierce wafted through the shop, customers clamoured to buy items such as €24 boxer-briefs and €68 tracksuit pants.

Seán Jr hadn't been spotted among the queues at the Abercrombie store this week, so maybe he picked up the navy blue jumper with the much-sought-after 'A&F 1892' logo on one of his many previous travels. (Abercrombie is also big among the newly rich of Moscow).

In another sign that the Quinns, despite their financial and legal troubles, are weathering the situation well, Seán Jr and his wife rolled up to the north inner-city prison in a high-performance Mercedes CLS which had been customised by the specialised firm AMG.
AMG models are typically the most expensive and highest-performance of each Mercedes class – although this one did date back as far as 2007.

Back then, it would almost certainly have cost in excess of €100,000 – and would still be worth some €50,000 today.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ireland/article-2227552/Se-n-Quinn-Sr-settling-prison-life-well.html#ixzz2BLjBwm9S
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Poor journalism indeed!

However you can't argue with the image of one of the Quinn's getting out of a €100k car when they're crying poverty and putting assets beyond the reach of the Taxpayer . . .  He's some d**khead to still be driving around in that!

A 5 year old car he owned from before the crash and A&F isn't exactly uncommon. A bit of a stretch linking it to Russia.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 05, 2012, 01:15:15 PM
Good deal for Alfa Group.


THE STATE-OWNED Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC) is to get the help of one of Russia's largest business groups to try and recover Quinn property put beyond its reach.

Under the deal, the investment arm of the Alfa Group, A1, will keep up to $200 million (€155 million) of property formerly owned by the family of Seán Quinn and now held by other Russian interests and offshore firms, in return for helping to recover property.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on November 05, 2012, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 05, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
But the contempt of court....was a clear criminal offence.

Before trying to lecture, get the ol' facts straight.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 05, 2012, 01:37:22 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 05, 2012, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 05, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
But the contempt of court....was a clear criminal offence.

Before trying to lecture, get the ol' facts straight.

Fine. The Supreme court's most recent judgement has not made it clear whether it is a civil or a criminal offence, and at the moment the status of the offence is something in between the two as far as Irish law is concerned. Right now it is neither and both of these things. Happy now?

It remains very serious, and that was kind of the point, rather than to demonstrate my expert grasp of subtle legal issues.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on November 05, 2012, 01:39:43 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 05, 2012, 01:37:22 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 05, 2012, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 05, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
But the contempt of court....was a clear criminal offence.

Before trying to lecture, get the ol' facts straight.

Fine. The Supreme court's most recent judgement has not made it clear whether it is a civil or a criminal offence, and at the moment the status of the offence is something in between the two as far as Irish law is concerned. Right now it is neither and both of these things. Happy now?

It remains very serious, and that was kind of the point, rather than to demonstrate my expert grasp of subtle legal issues.

I was responding to Hound. And I'm making the point that Sean Quinn cannot be labelled a convicted criminal.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hound on November 05, 2012, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 05, 2012, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 05, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
But the contempt of court....was a clear criminal offence.

Before trying to lecture, get the ol' facts straight.
The fact of the matter is he is in jail for illegally misappropriating funds in direct contravention of the courts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on November 05, 2012, 01:43:47 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 05, 2012, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on November 05, 2012, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 05, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
But the contempt of court....was a clear criminal offence.

Before trying to lecture, get the ol' facts straight.
The fact of the matter is he is in jail for illegally misappropriating funds in direct contravention of the courts.

The fact of the matter is contempt of court is not "a clear criminal offence".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 05, 2012, 01:54:03 PM
Quote from: orangeman on November 05, 2012, 01:11:10 PM
But who is driving the IRBC / Anglo side ? Why the witch hunt about Abercrombie jumpers and a 5 year old AMG Mercedes and a wedding cake ?.

Because there are those in the media, and indeed those of us generally, who get a little sickened by this constant attempt to manipulate the public into thinking SQ is a scapegoat and that his treatment is different because he's a common man who isn't a member of a South Dublin Rugby or golf club.

Anybody who makes money, as long as they do so in an honest fashion and pays their taxes in the process, is entitled to spend it how they like, and more luck to them. However there is an agenda out there that is pushing the idea that the Quinn family don't want money, they just want to be left alone so that they can altruistically create loads of jobs for people in the border region. These stories are the counterpoint to that spin.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 05, 2012, 02:08:48 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 05, 2012, 01:06:07 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 05, 2012, 12:49:32 PM

Witness the fact that people are bemoaning how SQ has been "jailed" for his financial dealings, when in actual fact he's been jailed for contempt of the court - a very serious issue.

It gas that all the eejits who support Quinn miss this.

Quinn is not going to jail for his financial dealings, because (like most of the dreaded bankers) while he was greedy and pompous and stupid, there's no evidence yet that he did anything against the law in creating all those losses.

But the contempt of court - in which he misappropriated millions of euro - was a clear criminal offence. He 100% deserves his spell in prison for this.

Yeah everyone who supports SQ are eejits.  ::) At least these eegits are not prepared to swallow everything spoon fed to them and realise that there's a bit more going on in this than just the contempt. The contempt is one issue out of this whole Anglo Quinn debate. It is not the sole issue (Despite what people would like to believe). It's possible to still be able to support SQ in his actions against Anglo in spite of the contempt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 05, 2012, 03:21:13 PM
Mrs.  Seán Óg Quinn adds a fashion angle to the whole soap opera.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hereiam on November 05, 2012, 04:58:02 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 05, 2012, 03:21:13 PM
Mrs.  Seán Óg Quinn adds a fashion angle to the whole soap opera.

(http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01556/SNE2909BB--_1556832a.jpg)
Indeed she does. I would rattle the ass of her.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on November 05, 2012, 11:14:31 PM
At least Sean was spared the ignominy of having to watch his beloved Tempo get hammered by Warrenpoint in the Ulster Intermediate Championship yesterday!  ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on November 05, 2012, 11:15:57 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on November 05, 2012, 11:14:31 PM
At least Sean was spared the ignominy of having to watch his beloved Tempo get hammered by Warrenpoint in the Ulster Intermediate Championship yesterday!  ;D

What the f**k are you on about?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on November 05, 2012, 11:17:39 PM
Teemore! Lol! Too many similar sounding shit teams from Fermanagh beginning with the letters Te ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on November 05, 2012, 11:21:02 PM
Should they not use some of the money from the sale of Quinn's (former) assets to build a special jail on the Fermanagh/ Cavan border specially to house the entire Quinn family? He would be bringing even more employment to the border region!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 08, 2012, 01:58:37 PM
SEAN Quinn Jnr cannot afford to pay $500,000 sought by the former Anglo Irish Bank as he tries to purge his contempt over asset-stripping of the Quinn family's international property group., the High Court was told today.

Mr Quinn was keen to try to comply with coercive orders made by the court last June, his brother-in-law Niall McPartland told the court.


Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), the former Anglo Irish Bank, had indicated Mr Quinn could purge his contempt by repaying to it a $500,000 sum paid to Larissa Puga, general director of Quinn Properties Ukraine, in autumn 2011.


But Mr McPartland said Mr Quinn was not in a position to pay that and did not feel that was an appropriate way to purge the contempt,.


Shane Murphy SC, for IBRC, said there had been correspondence with Mr Quinn and the bank wanted proceedings against him adjourned for two weeks while that correspondence continued.


Mr McPartland said the bank had raised issues in the correspondence about deficiencies in Mr Quinn's disclosure of assets. While his side felt those deficiencies were not substantial and two matters had been overlooked as an oversight, Mr Quinn was engaging with the bank and would continue to do so.


Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne said she would adjourn the proceedings for two weeks to facilitate the engagement between the bank and the Quinn side.


Last Friday, Ms Justice Dunne jailed Sean Quinn Snr for nine weeks arising from her finding last June he was in contempt of court orders of June and July 2011 restraining asset stripping.


IBRC had argued Mr Quinn had failed to purge his contempt and said it believed Quinn family members continue to direct steps to prevent it recovering assets for the Irish taxpayer.


Sean Quinn Snr, in an affidavit, said he had no control over the IPG assets but he and his family were willing to do all they could to assist the bank in recovering assets and to purge the contempt found against him and his son.


Sean Quinn Jnr was in court today with Mr Mc Partland. Mr Quinn was released from prison in late October after completing a three-month prison sentence for contempt.


The bank indicated last week it was not at this stage making any application concerning him but wanted time to consider its position.


Also today, Mr Justice Peter Kelly is hearing an application by a receiver appointed over the personal assets of various Quinn family members for access to a wide range of financial information held by them. They are objecting to his being given their passwords for their personal email accounts and certain other records.-
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on November 08, 2012, 03:29:33 PM
Sounds like they will scapegoat this family for the entire financial crisis.  The dope that is the average Irishman will see this as their pound of flesh, their justice for losing that holiday home in marbella.  Its a target for venting their spleen... How many complicit in running the banks and the nation to poverty, are watching and sneering from afar,  safe, probably untouchable, protected by the institutions they helped destroy.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 08, 2012, 03:38:55 PM
Quote from: rrhf on November 08, 2012, 03:29:33 PM
Sounds like they will scapegoat this family for the entire financial crisis.  The dope that is the average Irishman will see this as their pound of flesh, their justice for losing that holiday home in marbella.  Its a target for venting their spleen... How many complicit in running the banks and the nation to poverty, are watching and sneering from afar,  safe, probably untouchable, protected by the institutions they helped destroy.

It's not scapegoating. My grandmother used to have this little decorative plaque up on the wall of the kitchen, saying that the best way to get anything done was to begin. The investigation and reparation all had to start somewhere and while nobody is arguing that the Quinn family are any more or less responsible for the state of the nation than Seanie Fitz, David Drumm, Bertie or anyone less, for now they are the ones that are in front of the courts and so they should be pursued to pay their debts to the full limit of the law. If the Quinn family can prove that they did nothing wrong, that they did not sign documents agreeing to guarantee SQ snr's borrowings and that they made no attempt to hide information or assets from the investigation, then so be it - they should keep what's theirs.

The despicable lack of action against many of the other culprits is not an excuse to go easy on the Quinns, on the same basis that if you have two different people suspected of murder in different cases, the lack of submissible evidence against suspect 1 is not a case for letting suspect 2 off the hook.


That there are others who should be hanging from a gallows for the treasonous things they've done to this state and her citizens is not in question. However letting the Quinns off to keep what may or may not be taxpayer assets in the eyes of the law is not going to right that wrong, it will merely compound it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on November 08, 2012, 03:51:52 PM
Quote from: rrhf on November 08, 2012, 03:29:33 PM
Sounds like they will scapegoat this family for the entire financial crisis.  The dope that is the average Irishman will see this as their pound of flesh, their justice for losing that holiday home in marbella.  Its a target for venting their spleen... How many complicit in running the banks and the nation to poverty, are watching and sneering from afar,  safe, probably untouchable, protected by the institutions they helped destroy.

+1. Sean Quinn didn't put this debt upon the taxpayers but the state has chosen it's scapegoat and the sheep are sucking it all in, being gleeful mouthpieces for Anglo in their Quinn witchhunt and with a fifth of them (and counting) prepared to once again put FF back into power.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2012, 04:14:22 PM
I think the state is right to go after the Quinns but that the point of all the ones who got away is also valid. Ireland is corrupt, has a very weak legal system for white collar crime and the swine who f***ed the country more or less got away with it. Except for Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on November 08, 2012, 04:18:06 PM
The despicable lack of action against many of the other culprits is not an excuse to go easy on the Quinns, on the same basis that if you have two different people suspected of murder in different cases, the lack of submissible evidence against suspect 1 is not a case for letting suspect 2 off the hook.

Is there really a lack of submissable evidence, that is some statement in itself,  they are prepared to give substantial assets away to win this case at all costs. I Believe that  if Quinn meekly give it all back in the morning and the focus moved on to someone else there wouldnt be the same collated effort, the newspapers would change tact very quickly.   Did you ever stop to think of who is whistleblowing on this family? and what facesaving deals are being done behind the scene to unearth the Quinn portfolio.  I dont see how any one with more than a half a brain cant see this loaded effort / smokescreen for what it it.  Parallell cases should be going on against legislation breaking bankers because the law at that time appears to have been broken. The laws / rules were retrospectively changed leaving the taxpayers as creditors and the Quinns as debtors to the taxpayers.  If I go out for a meal and the restaurant tell me the neighbouring table have made off and  didnt pay their bill - I aint washing their dishes, the Irish taxpayer has been offered up to pay Quinns bill, he didnt want this to happen.  Finally  In this case the taxpayer was made responsible for business misdemeanours.  One party was a capitalistic businessman one party had finanical regulations guiding their operations regulations to protect the bank and the country.  Why were regulations not adhered to - thats the  chronological start point.       
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 08, 2012, 06:29:29 PM
Quote from: rrhf on November 08, 2012, 04:18:06 PM
Is there really a lack of submissable evidence, that is some statement in itself,  they are prepared to give substantial assets away to win this case at all costs.   

I have no idea what the evidence is like against the other white collar criminals who have done this to the country. I know there are no cases so far, so that suggests to me that the legislation/will/evidence is not sufficient. That's all a sad indictment of our country, but it's still no excuse for the Quinns.


Quote from: rrhf on November 08, 2012, 04:18:06 PM
I Believe that  if Quinn meekly give it all back in the morning and the focus moved on to someone else there wouldnt be the same collated effort, the newspapers would change tact very quickly.   

Of course they would. Because the Quinns would be seen to be doing their best to discharge the debts, that rightly or wrongly, are perceived to be family debts. Of course the courts may rule otherwise in time, but in law, the family assets are considered to be charged, and so the issue that people have is that the money is owed, the wherewithal is there to discharge at least part of this debt, and the Quinns don't want to do so. Of course it would change if they were actually doing their best to pay their debt.

Quote from: rrhf on November 08, 2012, 04:18:06 PMDid you ever stop to think of who is whistleblowing on this family? and what facesaving deals are being done behind the scene to unearth the Quinn portfolio.  I dont see how any one with more than a half a brain cant see this loaded effort / smokescreen for what it it.     

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. The reference to whistleblowing makes me very uneasy because of course the truth should come out, regardless of where it comes from. This culture of not "whistleblowing" in this country is what has us where we are. People perceive a little bit of playing fast and loose with the rules as our culture and not something that "busybodies" should stick their nose into. Maybe if we were quicker to out fraudsters at every level, big and small, we'd be better off. As for facesaving deals, well again that's for the courts to determine, but any deals that maximise return that can be done should be done.

Quote from: rrhf on November 08, 2012, 04:18:06 PMParallell cases should be going on against legislation breaking bankers because the law at that time appears to have been broken.     

Of course they should. No-one on any side of this debate would disagree with this. However again, that's nothing to do with the Quinn family saga.

Quote from: rrhf on November 08, 2012, 04:18:06 PMThe laws / rules were retrospectively changed leaving the taxpayers as creditors and the Quinns as debtors to the taxpayers.  If I go out for a meal and the restaurant tell me the neighbouring table have made off and  didnt pay their bill - I aint washing their dishes, the Irish taxpayer has been offered up to pay Quinns bill, he didnt want this to happen.     

Whether SQ/the Quinn family owe money to IBRC or the taxpayer is moot - the money is owed and there is both a legal and moral responsibility to do everything in their power to repay it. It may turn out that the Quinn family are liable, it may turn out that SQ alone is liable. The problem that most people have is that the Quinn family aren't happy to leave this up to the courts, they want to squirrel everything away so that the creditors get nothing, regardless. No right minded person would have a problem with the Quinn family keeping their assets if it can be proven that they never guaranteed loans, had no part in the transaction, never signed anything agreeing to guarantee loans and didn't receive any assets or excessive remuneration after the debt was incurred.

However while the taxpayer may not have agreed to it directly, we did when we voted for Fianna Fáil collectively. We agreed to be bound by their decisions and one of their decisions was that Anglo's debts would become Ireland's debts. Until we have governance by plebiscite, that's an unfortunate side effect of democracy. So yes, the taxpayer did agree to it. The tragedy that is FF polling anything above 5% since that decision is a separate issue but one that requires everyone in Ireland to look at themselves and ask why we have this masochistic nature.


Quote from: rrhf on November 08, 2012, 04:18:06 PMFinally  In this case the taxpayer was made responsible for business misdemeanours.  One party was a capitalistic businessman one party had finanical regulations guiding their operations regulations to protect the bank and the country.  Why were regulations not adhered to - thats the  chronological start point.     

The issue here is that it is not proven that those regulations were not adhered to, and either way, that does not absolve the debt. SQ incurred the debt and the fact that other side broke the rules is not necessarily a valid excuse. All the more so when we consider that SQ himself knew that there was a shadiness to the whole operation. He wasn't buying the shares/options on the basis of information that was released into the public domain, he was buying because he thought he had extra information.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 08, 2012, 08:25:39 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 06:48:08 PM
That's the issue Mid. You would think that they would confirm if the guarantees are legal before going about to enforce them. Unfortunately the courts have been very selective about what they want to investigate. Yet there has been no delays in any of the cases against the Quinns.
What your forgetting LS is that the majority of assets that were moved, were done legally due to the lack of security over the assets. So considering there was no legal issue with the transferring of most of the assets, I can't see how the Quinns would have any moral obligation to help Anglo considering the their actions.

IBRC could hardly wait to confirm guarantees were legal if they knew that the Quinns were busy moving stuff out of the jurisdiction in order to ensure that the debt would be worthless by the time it was proven. The difference here is that if in the long run it's proven that the assets should not have been forfeit to IBRC, IBRC will be liable for losses, which the state will have to make good. So if the Quinns are right and their assets should not be be forfeit, then once the courts prove that they will be recompensed appropriately. What the Quinns are doing is making sure that they win either way, regardless of what the courts declare.

I would have thought that the fact that the debt was legitimately incurred would have been moral obligation enough by the way. If I borrow money, I would feel honour bound to repay, whether from friend, family or financial institution.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 08:54:30 PM
The Quinns have no problem with the 455 m debt that they accept was legitimally loaned. They dispute the loans of 2.3B, which they believe Anglo acted unlawfully. Therefore would see no moral obligation to help Anglo cash in on it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 08, 2012, 09:11:31 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 08:54:30 PM
The Quinns have no problem with the 455 m debt that they accept was legitimally loaned. They dispute the loans of 2.3B, which they believe Anglo acted unlawfully. Therefore would see no moral obligation to help Anglo cash in on it.

I agree, that's exactly how they see it. The problem I, and a lot of other people in the country have, is that they're not prepared to let the court have a view. They want to make sure that the court's verdict is meaningless, so that IBRC and the taxpayer lose out either way, and they get the assets either way.


It's not for the Quinns to decide what justice is. Just because they perceive themselves to be in the right doesn't make it so - we have courts for that, and their actions so far suggest that they also believe themselves to be above the courts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 09:35:05 PM
The Quinns believe there's political influence over the courts here. A belief I'd agree with. When u look at the actions of Judge Dunne and also look at Irish politicians asking their Russian counterparts to investigate rulings in other jurisdictions, I can understand why.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 08, 2012, 09:48:19 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 09:46:24 PM
If he's throwing insults he's big enough to take them.
He wasn't insulting you, unless you are a Quinn  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on November 08, 2012, 09:49:53 PM
Insulting you?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on November 08, 2012, 09:50:05 PM
QuoteThe Quinns believe there's political influence over the courts here. A belief I'd agree with.

On what basis? Any judge would take a dim view of anyone giving the court two fingers, and they wouldn't need a politician to encourage them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 10:06:17 PM
I've explained before the reasons behind their distrust of the courts. I'm on iPhone now so not typing it all out. Will post tomorrow when on laptop. Or read back regarding my posts on Judge Dunne.

If he's happy enough throwing insults about regarding anyone then he can take them. He's a big boy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 08, 2012, 10:13:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 09:35:05 PM
The Quinns believe there's political influence over the courts here. A belief I'd agree with. When u look at the actions of Judge Dunne and also look at Irish politicians asking their Russian counterparts to investigate rulings in other jurisdictions, I can understand why.

Irish politicians will do what looks good to Irish voters. If the Irish voters as a whole that we wanted all our political leaders to be Muslim, the 166 TDS in the Dáil would be on the floor facing Mecca before you or I could blink. That means nothing to this debate.

However it's another thing entirely to say that they have influence over the courts, or that the courts aren't impartial. There is not one shred of evidence for this, whether you believe it or not. To call this into question is to doubt the very fundamentals of this state, it's to call into question the very rule of law. I wonder if I was to go up to one of the Quinn family and rob them at knifepoint, would they be as much against the enforcement of the law of the land? I've a sneaking suspicion their selective anarchism wouldn't quite go that far.


You can't genuinely be endorsing a system whereby people should be allowed to pick and choose whether or not to abide by the law of the land, and the courts that enforce it? Honestly, what kind of society would we have then?


Is this really the basis for your support for the Quinns - you share a belief that the Irish court system is corrupt?





Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 08, 2012, 10:17:12 PM
Where are the men who were in power when all this mess happened? Pat Neary for starters... The financial regulator who was in charge of the banking system - walked away scot free... Cowen, Drumm, McAteer, Fitzpatrick - Some of them, they're time may come but I don't see any of them behind bars tonight or having to answer too many questions thus far

The Quinn family had the billions to fill the massive hole in the Irish exchequer and going after them deflects the public anger away from the men who were supposedly in charge of running the country.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 10:25:54 PM
The difference here LS is that the State will benefit depending on the decision of the courts. That's a huge difference. You don't believe that has any effect. I don't believe your take about why Irish politicians are getting involved with court proceedings abroad. To me I see it as an extension of what they are at here. As for proof, as mentioned before it can be hard to get undisputed proof. But the actions of Judge Dunne have done enough for me to question how impartical the Irish courts are.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 08, 2012, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 10:25:54 PM
The difference here LS is that the State will benefit depending on the decision of the courts. That's a huge difference. You don't believe that has any effect. I don't believe your take about why Irish politicians are getting involved with court proceedings abroad. To me I see it as an extension of what they are at here. As for proof, as mentioned before it can be hard to get undisputed proof. But the actions of Judge Dunne have done enough for me to question how impartical the Irish courts are.

If the courts ruled according to the coffers of the state, there's no way we would have got the decision that we got recently regarding the ESAT licence, since that has the potential to open up another 2bn liability. There is no evidence whatsoever for your belief.

Surely it is possible that even though you may not agree with the decision, that it still could be made honestly? After all, the Supreme Court may not have fully endorsed everything that Justice Dunne did, but their ruling did generally tally with hers.

Every day that courts sit, there are rulings that I would not agree with. In every sitting of the high court or supreme court, there are rulings that benefit the state, and others that hinder it. This conspiracy theory of yours (and the Quinns, assuming they genuinely believe it and aren't using it as a smokescreen for old fashioned greed) just has no foundation whatsoever and the only people that hold it are those who would support the Quinns regardless of what they did.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 10:51:27 PM
All 5 judges ruled against the actions she placed against Sean Quinn Jr's contempt. I could allow a certain leeway if it was 3-2 or even 4-1. A complete idiot would have seen the injustice in what see did. You don't have a major issue with that. I do. She was bending over backwards for Anglo. But in actual fact went so far that she made a mess of it for them.
Your happy to accept this as just a mistake by the Judge, and that Irish politicians getting involved in court cases in other jurisdictions is just "appeasing the voters". I don't. Call it a smokescreen all you like, but there's enough there to cast doubt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 09, 2012, 03:27:47 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 08, 2012, 10:17:12 PM
Where are the men who were in power when all this mess happened? Pat Neary for starters... The financial regulator who was in charge of the banking system - walked away scot free... Cowen, Drumm, McAteer, Fitzpatrick - Some of them, they're time may come but I don't see any of them behind bars tonight or having to answer too many questions thus far

The Quinn family had the billions to fill the massive hole in the Irish exchequer and going after them deflects the public anger away from the men who were supposedly in charge of running the country.
Conspiracy thrives in the absence of transparency.
According to the FT, Quinn at his peak was worth 6bn. He bet 2.8bn on anglo. The insurance started to incur massive losses.
If he hadn't gotten involved in Anglo maybe he could have been worth 4bn today.
 
This year's budget deficit is north of 12bn. 

The financial collapse that hit Ireland is off the page.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 09, 2012, 07:23:09 AM
That lack of transparency has a lot to do with the Government. The whole Quinn/Anglo mess is a total shambles which begins at the core that the people running Anglo were con-men and the were closer to the establishment than SQ was so it might be deemed they have been getting looked after slightly more leniently than SQ throughout this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on November 09, 2012, 09:08:21 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20264700

Quinn Group premises in arson attack in Derrylin, Fermanagh ..

Who exactly will this help ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 09, 2012, 03:44:58 PM
And who said they paid it back?
Sure isn't that what all the contempt thing is about -them hiding assets so as IBRC won't get their hands on the €455m
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on November 09, 2012, 05:27:23 PM
They have 2 cement factories, 2 glass factories, 2 quarries, quinntherm, quinn radiators, quinn block, the slieve russell, all the pubs the family owned in dublin, the belfry, quinn insurance, and alot more i cannot remember of the top of my head. Now how much was all that worth at the time there were taken of the family?
Would it cover £455 million. Yes and there would be a good bit left over.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: OverThePostsAWide on November 09, 2012, 05:36:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 10:51:27 PM
All 5 judges ruled against the actions she placed against Sean Quinn Jr's contempt. I could allow a certain leeway if it was 3-2 or even 4-1. A complete idiot would have seen the injustice in what see did. You don't have a major issue with that. I do. She was bending over backwards for Anglo. But in actual fact went so far that she made a mess of it for them.
Your happy to accept this as just a mistake by the Judge, and that Irish politicians getting involved in court cases in other jurisdictions is just "appeasing the voters". I don't. Call it a smokescreen all you like, but there's enough there to cast doubt.

Very selective there SS. Now you're at the smokescreening yourself. If you are holding up the judgement of the 5 Supreme Court judges in overruling Justice Dunne in her ruling that Quinn had breached 30 coercive orders and should be jailed indefinitely until this was purged, are you also holding up the 4-1 judgement that upheld findings of contempt against Quinn and upheld the 3 month jail sentence? You can't have it both ways. Or are the only judgements that are correct and impartial are the ones that suit your point of view?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/1108/1224326307780.html

"...Last month, by a four-to-one majority, the Supreme Court had upheld findings of contempt against Mr Quinn and also upheld the imposition of a three-month jail sentence on him over that contempt.

However, all five judges found the High Court was not entitled to find he had breached 30 coercive orders aimed at reversing a wide ranging of asset-stripping measures when there were no actual findings he was involved in most of those measures.

They also found the High Court could not jail him indefinitely for breach of those orders..."



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 09, 2012, 06:36:04 PM
Quote from: OverThePostsAWide on November 09, 2012, 05:36:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 10:51:27 PM
All 5 judges ruled against the actions she placed against Sean Quinn Jr's contempt. I could allow a certain leeway if it was 3-2 or even 4-1. A complete idiot would have seen the injustice in what see did. You don't have a major issue with that. I do. She was bending over backwards for Anglo. But in actual fact went so far that she made a mess of it for them.
Your happy to accept this as just a mistake by the Judge, and that Irish politicians getting involved in court cases in other jurisdictions is just "appeasing the voters". I don't. Call it a smokescreen all you like, but there's enough there to cast doubt.

Very selective there SS. Now you're at the smokescreening yourself. If you are holding up the judgement of the 5 Supreme Court judges in overruling Justice Dunne in her ruling that Quinn had breached 30 coercive orders and should be jailed indefinitely until this was purged, are you also holding up the 4-1 judgement that upheld findings of contempt against Quinn and upheld the 3 month jail sentence? You can't have it both ways. Or are the only judgements that are correct and impartial are the ones that suit your point of view?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/1108/1224326307780.html

"...Last month, by a four-to-one majority, the Supreme Court had upheld findings of contempt against Mr Quinn and also upheld the imposition of a three-month jail sentence on him over that contempt.

However, all five judges found the High Court was not entitled to find he had breached 30 coercive orders aimed at reversing a wide ranging of asset-stripping measures when there were no actual findings he was involved in most of those measures.

They also found the High Court could not jail him indefinitely for breach of those orders..."

Not smokescreening at all. For what it's worth I agree that the Quinns were in contempt and should have been punished accordly. So Why would I raise an issue with that when I agree with her original finding and indeed the 4/5th of the Supreme. I'm not in the habit of taking issue with  points that I agree with.
But as mentioned I don't agree about how she went around putting sanctions on the punishment that A) had no relevance to the issues that were ruled on, and B) linking it to the actions of someone else. To me, going down that route, which was a clear objective of IRBR, she opened herself wide open to questions on her impartiality.

Quote from: Rossfan on November 09, 2012, 03:18:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 09:36:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 08, 2012, 09:26:11 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 08, 2012, 08:54:30 PM
The Quinns have no problem with the 455 m debt that they accept was legitimately loaned. .
Why don't the slimy scuts pay it back then and stop piling more costs on the taxpayers of the 26 Cos.

The 455 has already been taken you stupid c&@t.
Supersh1t is obviously a Quinn family member.
The same views - Everyone is out of step except the Quinns, a distorted view of reality and of course totally arrogant.
He now joins the threatening ranks of the "concerned citizens" with the above abusive post.
Disgraceful post by a deluded thug.

Yeah I'm a Quinn family member. Despite from being from the wrong county, let alone townland!! (That and the fact that various posters on here know who I am, in fact I've never hidden my identity) I treat people as I find them. I've debated with others on here with no problems, despite being from polar opposites of opinions. But you, come in make a snide comment, then usually run away. If someone trys to debate your comment you disappear for long enough and then come running back on to make the same comment. I've no time for you and my opinion of you hasn't changed. And the hypocrisy of you complaining about an abusive post isn't lost on me either.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 09, 2012, 08:59:58 PM
Some of us have to work for a living away from desks and computers so I can't be answering every post all day long.
I have no time for you either so there !!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: highorlow on November 10, 2012, 10:06:36 PM
The 2nd biggest mistake the Quinn family made (after taking the gamble in the 1st instance) was admitting to the 1/2 billion owed.

I reckon their own lawyers who were likely coaxed and threatened by the IBRC lawyers forced the Quinns to admit to this amount due.

This decision to admit to any money owed has effectively turned out to be miss advised and miss judged.

Had they shut up shop completely there would be no contempt or any of the rest of the carry-on and the Quinns case on the illegal loan would likely have been heard first before any of this other stuff.

This mistake opened the door to the IRBC to almost take over everything belonging to the Quinn family which is completely unjustified. The IRBC got first run on the Quinns rather than the other way around. Now they are making the Quinn family out to be some sort of criminals and scapegoats for the entire collapse of the economy when it was in fact the greed of the Bankers themselves that caused the whole things to collapse.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Gaaboardmod3 on November 13, 2012, 10:56:32 AM
Hi Lads, I've not had much time for a couple of days, so just looking at some reported posts now. I'm aware this is an emotive subject, but two things I want to make sure of

1 - No insulting each other. If you can't debate opposing points without resorting to childish insults, then we'll have to lock the debate because it's neither informative or entertaining.
2 - No insulting or libelling people not on this board. Obviously this is subject of a complex and lengthy set of legal battles. Feel free to debate what is in the public domain, but please try to do so without resorting to baseless accusations or cowardly insults on somebody who cannot respond here. Your opinion is welcomed, no matter how harsh, but please do not phrase it in libellous or insulting terms.

Thanks
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on November 13, 2012, 11:18:11 AM
Quote from: highorlow on November 10, 2012, 10:06:36 PM
Now they are making the Quinn family out to be some sort of criminals and scapegoats for the entire collapse of the economy

This comes up over and over again. The Quinns have not been jailed for anything to do with the collapse of the economy or as scapegoats for somebody else. The Quinns have been jailed for contempt of court. That's all. And contempt is a very good word for how they've treated the courts and, by extension, the people who are the real scapegoats in this debacle.

Also, the suggestion that nobody else has been taken to task for the banking collapse just ignores the fact that Fitzpatrck, McAteer and Whelan of Anglo are on bail, charged with 16 separate crimes each. It's taken too long and there should be a lot more of them in the slammer, but it does mean it's nonsense to suggest the Quinns are carrying the can by themselves for the banking collapse.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 13, 2012, 11:53:58 AM
Noboby is saying they were jailed because they brought down the economy. They are saying that the media attention given to Quinn over the Anglo dispute greatly outways the attention given to the likes of Fitz. I've barely read an article regarding Seanie fitz, McAteer et al since they were bailed. And yet there has been daily articles focusing on everything to do with the Quinns, from the price of cake to what they're wearing. Not really in proportion is it. That's the issue.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on November 13, 2012, 12:03:56 PM
Really? That's all you and others are complaining about - the media attention and its proportionality? I could have sworn I've been reading about the Quinns being jailed as scapegoats for Anglo and others, unfair procedures, wrongfully allocated debts and even corrupt courts.

That's all withdrawn now, is it and the only problem is disproportionate publicity? It seems to me that marching about the countryside and speechifying off the back of a lorry on a Sunday evening is not exactly trying to fight shy of publicity and media attention.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 13, 2012, 12:22:11 PM
Again Hardy you're making the mistake of thinking that the contempt is the only issue on the table, like so many others. Funnily enough there a few more issues than that, but I understand how you'd be confused about that. Some people get all their information from the papers....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on November 13, 2012, 12:27:40 PM
Em ... you were the one, just two posts ago, suggesting that there was only one issue about the treatment of the Quinns - publicity. "That's the issue" you said.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 13, 2012, 12:33:36 PM
That's the issue I had with your post. You were saying that people who believe SQ was being scapegoated was in relation to the Contempt charges and him being jailed. What people lose sight of is that the contempt is only one part of the story. There are plenty of others.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 15, 2012, 06:35:34 PM
QuoteAINE McMAHON

Liberty Insurance,  formerly Quinn Insurance, is to shed 285 jobs at  its offices on both sides of the Border.

The development comes on top of 900 redundancies two years ago at the company.

At staff meetings this afternoon, workers were told that 140 redundancies would be sought in Blanchardstown in Dublin, 75 in Cavan town and 70 in Enniskillen, Co Fermanagh. About 500 people currently work in each location.

A spokesman for Liberty Mutual told The Irish Times that Cavan will remain the headquarters for Liberty Mutual insurance in Ireland.

The company has told staff the redundancies are voluntary but the company has not ruled out compulsory job losses.

Chief executive Patrick O'Brien said the redundancies were necessary to protect the remaining 1,100 jobs.

"We are fully committed to the Irish business, will continue to invest in our business, and believe that our arrival has been positive for the Irish insurance market and consumers," he said.

He added that management, employees and the employee representative body would work together during a 30 day consultation period.

The company also announced plans to target general insurance customers in Northern Ireland and Britain. It said the decision to enter the market secured 415 jobs within the Irish operations.

Supporters of the Quinn family, who have staged several rallies in their hometown of Ballyconnell, Co Cavan, claimed the job losses came as little surprise after the family's plan to save the business was rejected.

Adrian McCaffrey, of Concerned Irish Businesses (CIB), said: "It is devastating for the employees concerned and their families, especially coming up to Christmas; however, it has been expected for some time now.

"The company formally known as Quinn Insurance has been in decline since the appointment of the administrators some two and half years ago, an appointment which has to date not been fully explained by the Financial Regulator.

"These job losses come at a time of severe social and economic turbulence in Ireland, a time when families in rural Ireland and particularly those in the border region are struggling to survive and maintain any form of community."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 17, 2012, 11:38:45 PM
Nice to see the government's way of handling the Quinn/Anglo mess is shaping up well for them... Or maybe they don't care if the vast majority of jobs being lost are north of the border
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on November 18, 2012, 10:00:02 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 17, 2012, 11:38:45 PM
Nice to see the government's way of handling the Quinn/Anglo mess is shaping up well for them... Or maybe they don't care if the vast majority of jobs being lost are north of the border
70 out of 285 is the vast majority?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 18, 2012, 02:54:34 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on November 18, 2012, 10:00:02 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 17, 2012, 11:38:45 PM
Nice to see the government's way of handling the Quinn/Anglo mess is shaping up well for them... Or maybe they don't care if the vast majority of jobs being lost are north of the border
70 out of 285 is the vast majority?

Nah suppose it isn't. Me bad. Irish government ok.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 18, 2012, 05:11:58 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 17, 2012, 11:38:45 PM
Nice to see the government's way of handling the Quinn/Anglo mess is shaping up well for them...
Aye and don't forget the €1.6Bn shortfall WE have to make up. ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 18, 2012, 06:55:06 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 18, 2012, 05:11:58 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 17, 2012, 11:38:45 PM
Nice to see the government's way of handling the Quinn/Anglo mess is shaping up well for them...
Aye and don't forget the €1.6Bn shortfall WE have to make up. ;)

Blame Anglo for that - Shame on them for their wreckless and illegal lending policy.

And thank the Financial Regulator for doing his job impeccably.

Sean Quinn was hung out to dry!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 18, 2012, 07:14:03 PM
Nothing to do with Anglo. It's the shortfall left in Quinn Insurance from their British business that we in the 26 Cos. have to pick up.
We'll be paying that as a levy on our Insurance premiums (premia?) till Kingdom come.
Yes indeed - the plain people hung out to dry again as a result of big business ways of doing things - in this instance you're heroes Quinns.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 19, 2012, 09:32:58 AM
The shortfall came about because Liberty refused to take resonsibility for the open and historic claims on QIL books. All insurance companies have open liabilities, but these usually come out of the profits of the insurance company. But in this case, Anglo were allowed to seperate all open liabilities against the company and push them aside to be paid for by the insurance fund. Had the company not changed ownership these liabilities would have to be met first before any profit by the company. In this case anglo are now making money via the company while of-setting their liabilities against the fund. I honestly don't understand how there's not more of a noise about it? I assume it's just that they are happy to believe that SQ is the bad guy rather than start to ask questions about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 22, 2012, 04:01:20 PM
The High Court has been told that Seán Quinn Snr, who is serving a nine-week prison sentence for contempt of court, has dismissed his lawyer.

Miss Justice Elizabeth Dunne was told that during a professional visit Mr Quinn told his lawyer his services were no longer required.

The judge was also told that Seán Quinn Jnr has a new legal team.

She was told that Mr Quinn Jnr needed time to note lengthy correspondence from IBRC and that it was his intention to purge his contempt.

Miss Justice Dunne said this sounded very promising, and she adjourned the matter to 13 December
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 22, 2012, 11:50:35 PM
SEAN Quinn Junior has given "unequivocal" instructions he wants to purge his contempt of the court orders which led to his serving a three month jail term, his lawyers told the High Court today.

Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne, who jailed Mr Quinn on July 20 last, said this "sounds very promising and hopefully that will turn out to be the case" after being informed of Mr Quinn's intention by Ross Aylward BL.


Given the continuing exchange of correspondence between lawyers for Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC) and the Quinn side, Shane Murphy SC, for the bank, said the sides had agreed the contempt proceedings against Mr Quinn Jnr, his father Sean senior and his cousin Peter Darragh Quinn, could be further adjourned to December 13.


Those contempt proceedings arose in the context of the bank's proceedings against the Quinn children and some of their spouses, as well as against Peter Darragh Quinn and several companies, aimed at protecting up to €430m assets in the family's international property group.


Mr Murphy said new lawyers had come on record for the Quinn children and some of their spouses but not for Sean Quinn Senior or Peter Darragh Quinn.


The court heard today there was still no appearance by or on behalf of Peter Darragh Quinn who was jailed in his absence at the same time as Sean junior was also jailed.


A warrant issued by the judge for his arrest remains unexecuted as he continues to live at his home in Northern Ireland.


Sean Quinn Senior was jailed last month for nine weeks and the judge was told by Karen Nolan BL he had instructed his lawyers on November 7 last he no longer wished them to represent him.


An application by those lawyers to "come off record" for Mr Quinn will be dealt with by the court next week.


The bank's counsel, Mr Murphy, also said today that correspondence from IBRC had been sent to the Quinn side related to its intention to "recalibrate" some 30 coercive orders made by the judge last July aimed at reversing asset-stripping measures.


The bank has initiated that "recalibration" process in light of a Supreme Court decision that the High Court was not entitled to jail Sean Quinn Jnr indefinitely on foot of those orders in circumstances where there was no actual findings he was involved in most of those asset-stripping measures.


Also today, Mr Justice Frank Clarke ruled a "material change of circumstances" justified granting a separate application by IBRC to set aside a previous court decision referring a legal issue raised by the Quinns to the European Court of Justice.


That issue was whether the courts here or in Cyprus should determine the dispute between IBRC and the Quinns about their international businesses.


The Quinns had argued the Cyprus courts should decide the matter but the judge directed the reference should be set aside given several developments in the case, including the loss of a court action in Cyprus by the Quinns.


In the changed circumstances, the legal proceedings here will be over long before the Quinn Cypriot proceedings can even get significantly off the ground, he noted.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 23, 2012, 12:44:35 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 19, 2012, 09:32:58 AM
The shortfall came about because Liberty refused to take resonsibility for the open and historic claims on QIL books. All insurance companies have open liabilities, but these usually come out of the profits of the insurance company. But in this case, Anglo were allowed to seperate all open liabilities against the company and push them aside to be paid for by the insurance fund. Had the company not changed ownership these liabilities would have to be met first before any profit by the company. In this case anglo are now making money via the company while of-setting their liabilities against the fund. I honestly don't understand how there's not more of a noise about it? I assume it's just that they are happy to believe that SQ is the bad guy rather than start to ask questions about it.

Be careful what you wish for. If QI was sold with historic and future claims attached, nobody would have touched it. By no measure is it worth the amount that will be paid out over the next 10-15 years. People knew this - the current deal was the best way of saving at least some of the jobs in the company.

That's not to say that Liberty haven't made out like bandits - time may reveal that they have. But this is a consequence of QI's pricing and their inaccurate assessment of future risk. My guess is there was political pressure to try and save the employment and let insurance customers take the hit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 23, 2012, 07:39:31 AM
Sean Quinn Jr reported to be appearing on the Late Late tonight.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on November 23, 2012, 09:11:00 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 23, 2012, 07:39:31 AM
Sean Quinn Jr reported to be appearing on the Late Late tonight.

Will I watch this or will I just crash the car??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Billys Boots on November 23, 2012, 09:42:03 AM
Quote from: AQMP on November 23, 2012, 09:11:00 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 23, 2012, 07:39:31 AM
Sean Quinn Jr reported to be appearing on the Late Late tonight.

Will I watch this or will I just crash the car??

Well, don't expect to make a successful claim! 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on November 23, 2012, 09:42:58 AM
Quote from: Billys Boots on November 23, 2012, 09:42:03 AM
Quote from: AQMP on November 23, 2012, 09:11:00 AM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 23, 2012, 07:39:31 AM
Sean Quinn Jr reported to be appearing on the Late Late tonight.

Will I watch this or will I just crash the car??

Well, don't expect to make a successful claim!

;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2012, 11:06:43 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 23, 2012, 12:44:35 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 19, 2012, 09:32:58 AM
The shortfall came about because Liberty refused to take resonsibility for the open and historic claims on QIL books. All insurance companies have open liabilities, but these usually come out of the profits of the insurance company. But in this case, Anglo were allowed to seperate all open liabilities against the company and push them aside to be paid for by the insurance fund. Had the company not changed ownership these liabilities would have to be met first before any profit by the company. In this case anglo are now making money via the company while of-setting their liabilities against the fund. I honestly don't understand how there's not more of a noise about it? I assume it's just that they are happy to believe that SQ is the bad guy rather than start to ask questions about it.

Be careful what you wish for. If QI was sold with historic and future claims attached, nobody would have touched it. By no measure is it worth the amount that will be paid out over the next 10-15 years. People knew this - the current deal was the best way of saving at least some of the jobs in the company.
That's not to say that Liberty haven't made out like bandits - time may reveal that they have. But this is a consequence of QI's pricing and their inaccurate assessment of future risk. My guess is there was political pressure to try and save the employment and let insurance customers take the hit.

I'll disagree with you. For a start it had £1B in CASH reserves that's in exclusion to the assets that are attached to the company. They had assets well in excess of the levy. The levy was put in place as a tax. They were given an opportunity to put in place a tax that they could blame someone else for. It was perfect for them. The debt from PMPA had just been paid of and this was a perfect chance to put in place something similar. and remember the historic debt wasn't going to be paid out in one lump sum, it would have been spread over numerous years so could have been handled from the profits of the company.

It's a pre-recorded interview with Sean Quinn. They wouldn't do a live one.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on November 23, 2012, 11:16:13 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 23, 2012, 11:06:43 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 23, 2012, 12:44:35 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 19, 2012, 09:32:58 AM
The shortfall came about because Liberty refused to take resonsibility for the open and historic claims on QIL books. All insurance companies have open liabilities, but these usually come out of the profits of the insurance company. But in this case, Anglo were allowed to seperate all open liabilities against the company and push them aside to be paid for by the insurance fund. Had the company not changed ownership these liabilities would have to be met first before any profit by the company. In this case anglo are now making money via the company while of-setting their liabilities against the fund. I honestly don't understand how there's not more of a noise about it? I assume it's just that they are happy to believe that SQ is the bad guy rather than start to ask questions about it.

Be careful what you wish for. If QI was sold with historic and future claims attached, nobody would have touched it. By no measure is it worth the amount that will be paid out over the next 10-15 years. People knew this - the current deal was the best way of saving at least some of the jobs in the company.
That's not to say that Liberty haven't made out like bandits - time may reveal that they have. But this is a consequence of QI's pricing and their inaccurate assessment of future risk. My guess is there was political pressure to try and save the employment and let insurance customers take the hit.

I'll disagree with you. For a start it had £1B in CASH reserves that's in exclusion to the assets that are attached to the company. They had assets well in excess of the levy. The levy was put in place as a tax. They were given an opportunity to put in place a tax that they could blame someone else for. It was perfect for them. The debt from PMPA had just been paid of and this was a perfect chance to put in place something similar. and remember the historic debt wasn't going to be paid out in one lump sum, it would have been spread over numerous years so could have been handled from the profits of the company.

It's a pre-recorded interview with Sean Quinn. They wouldn't do a live one.

Quinns or RTE??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2012, 11:23:47 AM
RTE
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 23, 2012, 12:07:39 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 23, 2012, 11:23:47 AM
RTE

Why not? Afraid of something?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cold tea on November 23, 2012, 12:14:14 PM
Probably afraid Tubs wouldn't understand wtf was being said!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2012, 12:32:23 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 23, 2012, 12:07:39 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 23, 2012, 11:23:47 AM
RTE

Why not? Afraid of something?

The cynic in me says they'll have a panel on afterwards to discuss it, which will give them a chance to argue against his points without giving him the opportunity to reply. Or prob more likely they are scared of something being said that could get them in trouble.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
Hearing rumors of more job losses in the group. Hopefully not true. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: All of a Sludden on November 23, 2012, 10:57:27 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on November 23, 2012, 07:39:31 AM
Sean Quinn Jr reported to be appearing on the Late Late tonight.

On now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: glens abu on November 23, 2012, 11:07:56 PM
Crap interview,Raymond asking about prison life and wouldn't let him tell his side of story
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on November 23, 2012, 11:12:14 PM
Tubs is a shite interviewer. He seemed to be thrown by Quinn's answers and didn't know what to ask next for a while.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 23, 2012, 11:15:24 PM
Say what you want about Pat Kenny but he would have been in his element interviewing yer man.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: glens abu on November 23, 2012, 11:17:49 PM
That was brutal
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 23, 2012, 11:20:09 PM
Tubridy is possibly the worst net reviewer on telly. Brutal.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 23, 2012, 11:25:46 PM
Quote from: glens abu on November 23, 2012, 11:07:56 PM
Crap interview,Raymond asking about prison life and wouldn't let him tell his side of story

Tubs was awful. Just wanted to humiliate the fella a little bit more on top of what they have been through already.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: DickyRock on November 24, 2012, 12:44:47 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 23, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
Hearing rumors of more job losses in the group. Hopefully not true.

Can confirm that. Nothing else around the area for these people to go. Seems that they're drip feeding these redundancies.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on November 24, 2012, 01:36:53 AM
Jobs apparently gone in plastics today.
Drip, drip, drip.
This leak will soon be a flood
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: DuffleKing on November 24, 2012, 08:19:44 AM

Quinn has a lot to answer for
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 24, 2012, 08:51:47 AM
Quote from: DuffleKing on November 24, 2012, 08:19:44 AM

Quinn has a lot to answer for

Seanie Fitz has alot to answer for too. This whole case has been handled arse about face.

Quinn's were sold a pup and they are expected to just accept this and hand everything over to the State who were supposedly regulating the banking activities in the first place. Nonsense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on November 24, 2012, 09:31:23 AM
The craic will really start when quinn proves that he did not in fact owe the 2.8 billion and then has a case against the state for destroying the group. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on November 24, 2012, 09:38:57 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 24, 2012, 09:31:23 AM
The craic will really start when quinn proves that he did not in fact owe the 2.8 billion and then has a case against the state for destroying the group.

I don't envy them having to take on the establishment, courts and all...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on November 24, 2012, 10:48:22 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on November 24, 2012, 09:31:23 AM
The craic will really start when quinn proves that he did not in fact owe the 2.8 billion and then has a case against the state for destroying the group.

That won't happen.

Sorry that can't happen.

Quinns can't bea the system.


In tomorrow's Independent, they're going after ANGLO / IRBC and focussing on the vendetta IRBC have on the Quinn family.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on November 24, 2012, 11:47:31 AM
Just watched the interview - not sure what else people expected from the Late Late - it's a light entertainment show - if he thought he was going to go onto that show and get into the legal details, he was deluded.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 24, 2012, 02:03:45 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on November 24, 2012, 11:47:31 AM
Just watched the interview - not sure what else people expected from the Late Late - it's a light entertainment show - if he thought he was going to go onto that show and get into the legal details, he was deluded.

He was happy enough to discuss the contempt legal cases. Just no other ones.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on November 24, 2012, 02:22:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 24, 2012, 02:03:45 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on November 24, 2012, 11:47:31 AM
Just watched the interview - not sure what else people expected from the Late Late - it's a light entertainment show - if he thought he was going to go onto that show and get into the legal details, he was deluded.

He was happy enough to discuss the contempt legal cases. Just no other ones.
Was he not discussing judgements already passed?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 24, 2012, 02:58:07 PM
But why not discuss everything? It's not like most of the information isn't out in the public domain already. Kinda pointless taking a look at one aspect without discussing the bigger picture.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 01:26:39 PM
Didn't know whether to put this into this thread or the movies one!!  :P

QuoteIt is reported that the rise and fall of Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn is to be made into a film, with Kevin Spacey and Omagh-born actor Gerard McSorley both tipped for the lead role.

The Irish Independent reports that the film will be made by Dublin-based Soho Moon Productions and production is planned for next year.


Soho Moon owner James Mitchell's credits as a producer include Into the West, Croupier and the Spacey and McSorley-starring Ordinary Decent Criminal.


The script for the film will be written by Northern Irish Emmy winner Ron Hutchinson, whose credits include The Burning Season and Murderers Among Us: The Simon Wiesenthal Story.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 26, 2012, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 01:26:39 PM
Didn't know whether to put this into this thread or the movies one!!  :P

QuoteIt is reported that the rise and fall of Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn is to be made into a film, with Kevin Spacey and Omagh-born actor Gerard McSorley both tipped for the lead role.

The Irish Independent reports that the film will be made by Dublin-based Soho Moon Productions and production is planned for next year.


Soho Moon owner James Mitchell's credits as a producer include Into the West, Croupier and the Spacey and McSorley-starring Ordinary Decent Criminal.


The script for the film will be written by Northern Irish Emmy winner Ron Hutchinson, whose credits include The Burning Season and Murderers Among Us: The Simon Wiesenthal Story.

I would assume all legal wranglings will not be resolved by next year so will be interesting to see what slant it takes - in this case there will be arguments of bias from all quarters!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 03:01:05 PM
QuoteHarkin challenges government over job losses at former Quinn companies


Published on Monday 26 November 2012 13:00

Local MEP Marian Harkin (Ind) has begun a challenge on the Irish Government over the job losses that have been announced at the former Quinn Companies

The announcement, which was made last week, indicated that there would be a further 285 redundancies at Liberty Mutual Insurance, which Harkin said, would "have grave consequences for the border areas".

"On the day that receivers were sent in to the Quinn Group, the Minister for Finance, Michael Noonan said the deal was a good news story  for the workers and border region," Ms Harkin fumed.

"In the Dail - referring to the disposal of Quinn Insurance, to Liberty Mutual - the Minister said that another factor in the government's decision to go with the Liberty Mutual/Anglo proposal was the fact that virtually all of the jobs would be protected - aside from the 24 redundancies in Manchester.  I have been informed however that the decision to appoint a share receiver will have no significant impact on jobs in the wider Quinn Group."

The Independent MEP for the North/West went on to say that – to date and according to her calculations – job losses at the former Quinn Insurance company, now stood at 1,185 in total, and this clearly highlighted "the Government's total understatement of the consequences of breaking up the Quinn Group".

"The Minister must now institute an immediate evaluation of the current position of all of the former Quinn Group companies and ascertain the intentions of the current owners, if they can be identified," she explained further.  "The border areas cannot sustain any more shock announcements from Liberty Mutual or from the owners of former Quinn Group companies which could be disposed of at any time."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 26, 2012, 04:33:25 PM
It was stupid to think that there would be any light cast on the whole affair by an interview between SQ Jnr and Ryan Tubridy. Tubridy was always going to be painfully out of his depth dealing with the legal intricacies of this case, any focus on the "human" element just clouds matters even further with spin and bluster, and the option to avoid answering a question due to the ongoing court cases was always there. This was an attempt to be "topical" just for the sake of it.


I do feel sorry for the employees that have the threat of redundancy hanging over their heads here. They are the innocent victims in all this and no amount of finger-pointing or blame can help them. The State failed to regulate, Anglo Irish bank made loans that may or may not have been legal but were certainly ill-advised, and Sean Quinn took an unmerciful gamble that was wholly unnecessary. Any one of these three parties could have taken steps to make this whole facade a bit less likely, but none did, and that's very sad. 

As has been discussed at length, there are those who believe that the Quinn Group were in serious difficulty regardless, but that will of course be difficult to prove one way or another.

I will say this though. Protesting on the streets of Ballyconnell is one thing; I fundamentally disagree with the point of view that is held, and I certainly question the judgement of some of the high profile outsiders who got involved, but it is still a legitimate protest, a statement of public disillusionment, and that's fine.

However all of these protests that try to obstruct companies from going about their daily business are making it a lot easier for Liberty and indeed other firms to question if they want to do business in the border areas. It's all very well to be angry at what's happened, but taking it out on everyone by causing suspicious fires, creating roadblocks and generally blocking business from taking place is foolhardy. I've no doubt that Liberty Mutual bosses are looking at all this and wondering if they really want to be part of this community which seems to tolerate a certain degree of lawlessness, as long as the motivation is deemed appropriate. The courts will determine in time whether the movement of assets to frustrate creditors was legal or not, but there are those in the affected area that consider the Quinns to be perfectly correct in their actions, regardless of what the law says. There are those who deem obstructive protests to be legitimate, and that's not the kind of culture within which I would like to run a large multinational business.

If these jobs are lost, Marian Harkin and the other parish pumpers in the area will be the first ones screaming for large efforts to be made for those jobs to be replaced. But if I was responsible for enterprise and job creation, and I had the choice of looking after one area that has the potential to sabotage the whole thing in a show of solidarity with their local chieftain and his family, or spending my time and energy trying to help another area equally hit by unemployment but without the same obstructionist tendencies, I know who I'd favour. I'd concentrate my efforts on helping Limerick, Donegal, Waterford, or any of the other blackspots, long before I'd lift a finger to help Cavan.

I hope these protesters start to think of this pretty soon.




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 04:45:18 PM
To be fair Loneshark, the feeling in the local area now is against the attacks. Even from the start alot of people were against it. But unfortunately as with any swell of feeling it only takes a small number to overstep the mark and take action into their own hands. But I think it's become clear now that such attacks are only having a negative effect and so I cant see them continuing. Or at least I would hope not. SQ himself says they're idiotic.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 26, 2012, 04:54:38 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 04:45:18 PM
To be fair Loneshark, the feeling in the local area now is against the attacks. Even from the start alot of people were against it. But unfortunately as with any swell of feeling it only takes a small number to overstep the mark and take action into their own hands. But I think it's become clear now that such attacks are only having a negative effect and so I cant see them continuing. Or at least I would hope not. SQ himself says they're idiotic.

That's as may be but am I correct in saying that no arrests have been made? If I was lucky enough to have a PAYE job and some miscreants were endangering it with this kind of misguided criminality, my first step would be to ask them to stop and my second step would be to inform the Gardaí. However I don't believe anything like that is happening. This is no different to lads burning out cars for kicks or making a living off burglary or muggings. It's criminality, yet what I've heard (admittedly from just one guard in the area) is that nobody wants to make any statements to the police.

Nobody is naive enough to think that the vast majority of people in the area are criminals - but it looks to the world that there is a TOLERANCE of criminality there, whether that be of the white collar variety, or of the sabotaging kind. That's enough to draw a line through the area when it comes to any form of business enterprise.

If you're telling me that the locals are turning on these yobs and doing their best to see them behind bars, then fair play and there's hope for the community yet. I just haven't seen/read any evidence of this.



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 26, 2012, 05:03:16 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 03:01:05 PM
QuoteHarkin challenges government over job losses at former Quinn companies


Published on Monday 26 November 2012 13:00

Local MEP Marian Harkin (Ind) has begun a challenge on the Irish Government over the job losses that have been announced at the former Quinn Companies

"The Minister must now institute an immediate evaluation of the current position of all of the former Quinn Group companies and ascertain the intentions of the current owners, if they can be identified," she explained further.  "The border areas cannot sustain any more shock announcements from Liberty Mutual or from the owners of former Quinn Group companies which could be disposed of at any time."

Jasus Marian is a great help.  ::)
She's another great argument for dictatorship  :-[
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 26, 2012, 04:54:38 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 04:45:18 PM
To be fair Loneshark, the feeling in the local area now is against the attacks. Even from the start alot of people were against it. But unfortunately as with any swell of feeling it only takes a small number to overstep the mark and take action into their own hands. But I think it's become clear now that such attacks are only having a negative effect and so I cant see them continuing. Or at least I would hope not. SQ himself says they're idiotic.

That's as may be but am I correct in saying that no arrests have been made? If I was lucky enough to have a PAYE job and some miscreants were endangering it with this kind of misguided criminality, my first step would be to ask them to stop and my second step would be to inform the Gardaí. However I don't believe anything like that is happening. This is no different to lads burning out cars for kicks or making a living off burglary or muggings. It's criminality, yet what I've heard (admittedly from just one guard in the area) is that nobody wants to make any statements to the police.

Nobody is naive enough to think that the vast majority of people in the area are criminals - but it looks to the world that there is a TOLERANCE of criminality there, whether that be of the white collar variety, or of the sabotaging kind. That's enough to draw a line through the area when it comes to any form of business enterprise.

If you're telling me that the locals are turning on these yobs and doing their best to see them behind bars, then fair play and there's hope for the community yet. I just haven't seen/read any evidence of this.

Your making it sound that the community know who is doing it. I'd be pretty well placed in that community and know that the majority of people don't know who is doing it. there's plenty of allegations being thrown round and the police have investigated leads. But without evidence they can't do anything. To try and make this out as tolerance is nonsence in my opinion.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 26, 2012, 05:45:18 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 26, 2012, 04:54:38 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 04:45:18 PM
To be fair Loneshark, the feeling in the local area now is against the attacks. Even from the start alot of people were against it. But unfortunately as with any swell of feeling it only takes a small number to overstep the mark and take action into their own hands. But I think it's become clear now that such attacks are only having a negative effect and so I cant see them continuing. Or at least I would hope not. SQ himself says they're idiotic.

That's as may be but am I correct in saying that no arrests have been made? If I was lucky enough to have a PAYE job and some miscreants were endangering it with this kind of misguided criminality, my first step would be to ask them to stop and my second step would be to inform the Gardaí. However I don't believe anything like that is happening. This is no different to lads burning out cars for kicks or making a living off burglary or muggings. It's criminality, yet what I've heard (admittedly from just one guard in the area) is that nobody wants to make any statements to the police.

Nobody is naive enough to think that the vast majority of people in the area are criminals - but it looks to the world that there is a TOLERANCE of criminality there, whether that be of the white collar variety, or of the sabotaging kind. That's enough to draw a line through the area when it comes to any form of business enterprise.

If you're telling me that the locals are turning on these yobs and doing their best to see them behind bars, then fair play and there's hope for the community yet. I just haven't seen/read any evidence of this.

Your making it sound that the community know who is doing it. I'd be pretty well placed in that community and know that the majority of people don't know who is doing it. there's plenty of allegations being thrown round and the police have investigated leads. But without evidence they can't do anything. To try and make this out as tolerance is nonsence in my opinion.

I'm not trying to make it out as anything. I don't live in the area and if you're telling me that it's genuinely not known who's at this, then fair enough. The bit in bold suggests that a minority of people do know, but I'm guessing that wasn't what you intended to imply. One friend of mine is a guard in the area and his view to me was that "it's impossible to investigate, you just meet a brick wall everywhere you turn" or words to that effect. Hence my post.

However rightly or wrongly, the perception of tolerance exists, and for as long as these attacks on property and unlawful attempts to obstruct business take place without any charges made by the Gardaí, that perception will continue.

This kind of thing doesn't help:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/warning-of-civil-unrest-if-quinn-is-sent-to-prison-3279522.html (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/warning-of-civil-unrest-if-quinn-is-sent-to-prison-3279522.html)

Quote"Many have also commented that if Sean Quinn or any of his family drop dead from the sheer pressure and stress that they are being subjected to on a daily basis, there will be very serious consequences for their perpetrators and for those who facilitated this horror," said Ms Gilheany.

Only the lady in question knows what she intended to say here, but surely it must be obvious that it reads as a veiled threat of violence, aimed at all those who are attempting to subject the Quinn family to due legal process and to exact repayment of the debt. If that's not what is meant, the CIC need a new spokesperson.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 11:29:56 PM
QuoteThe bit in bold suggests that a minority of people do know, but I'm guessing that wasn't what you intended to imply.

Well obviously the people doing the actions know who's doing it. But the vast majority that I know don't. and unless you knew something concrete there's not much point casting accusations.

QuoteHowever rightly or wrongly, the perception of tolerance exists, and for as long as these attacks on property and unlawful attempts to obstruct business take place without any charges made by the Gardaí, that perception will continue.

Well have to agree to disagree here. I don't see a perception of tolerance and I don't believe others do either. People are smart enough not to tarnish a whole geographic area of the actions of a few.

The CIC have criticised the attacks as well. But I'll agree with you that they need a new Spoke's person as Ms Gilheaney, no matter how well intended she may be, is a terrible public speaker.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on November 27, 2012, 12:30:24 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 11:29:56 PM
QuoteHowever rightly or wrongly, the perception of tolerance exists, and for as long as these attacks on property and unlawful attempts to obstruct business take place without any charges made by the Gardaí, that perception will continue.

Well have to agree to disagree here. I don't see a perception of tolerance and I don't believe others do either. People are smart enough not to tarnish a whole geographic area of the actions of a few.

If you say that there is no tolerance for the assorted criminality and work stoppages that are taking place in Cavan, then I would accept your word. However equally, I am saying that from speaking to people here in Galway and at home in Offaly, that view would be held. There is the view that people tolerate the illegal protests, there is the view that border people feel that the Quinn family should be above the law just because a few south Dublin schysters appear to be, and there is the perception that people support the actions of the Quinn family, which are in contempt of the court. This isn't about agreeing to disagree, this is about how you're in one place, I'm in another, and the perception is completely different in the two.

And if I'm in business and considering establishing a base, be it production, support or retail, I might be able to see that the vast majority of people don't support the actions of the few, but I also see that the actions of the few are going unpunished. And if I'm choosing between one location where there is a 5% chance of my business being sabotaged by a few lunatics trying to "support" their local chieftain, and another location where there is 0% chance of that happening, then it doesn't matter to me that there's a 95% chance I'll be fine, or that in the case of an incident, 99% of people will condemn what was done to my enterprise, as it lies smouldering in ruins. I'll still go with the safe option. Equally, how can I do business with people when they give a very clear signal that this is how you treat creditors - you make a mockery of them by moving assets everywhere and claiming that papers you signed were done so without being read, and so the contract should be void?

What logical person would try to do business in such an environment?



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 27, 2012, 09:20:44 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 27, 2012, 12:30:24 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 26, 2012, 11:29:56 PM
QuoteHowever rightly or wrongly, the perception of tolerance exists, and for as long as these attacks on property and unlawful attempts to obstruct business take place without any charges made by the Gardaí, that perception will continue.

Well have to agree to disagree here. I don't see a perception of tolerance and I don't believe others do either. People are smart enough not to tarnish a whole geographic area of the actions of a few.

If you say that there is no tolerance for the assorted criminality and work stoppages that are taking place in Cavan, then I would accept your word. However equally, I am saying that from speaking to people here in Galway and at home in Offaly, that view would be held. There is the view that people tolerate the illegal protests, there is the view that border people feel that the Quinn family should be above the law just because a few south Dublin schysters appear to be, and there is the perception that people support the actions of the Quinn family, which are in contempt of the court. This isn't about agreeing to disagree, this is about how you're in one place, I'm in another, and the perception is completely different in the two.


Well I'm afraid we will have to disagree. Sean has received huge support from Galway. There was even buses coming up from there to one of the protests. Sean's wife Patricia is from Galway and I know the support the family have been given from that area. So again I don't agree with your view on people from Galway not supporting him.
Again you are trying to make out that the Contempt is the only case in town. It isn't. There's possible to support the Quinns in their actions against anglo and the Loans while disagreeing with the contempt.

Quote from: Lone Shark on November 27, 2012, 12:30:24 AM

And if I'm in business and considering establishing a base, be it production, support or retail, I might be able to see that the vast majority of people don't support the actions of the few, but I also see that the actions of the few are going unpunished. And if I'm choosing between one location where there is a 5% chance of my business being sabotaged by a few lunatics trying to "support" their local chieftain, and another location where there is 0% chance of that happening, then it doesn't matter to me that there's a 95% chance I'll be fine, or that in the case of an incident, 99% of people will condemn what was done to my enterprise, as it lies smouldering in ruins. I'll still go with the safe option. Equally, how can I do business with people when they give a very clear signal that this is how you treat creditors - you make a mockery of them by moving assets everywhere and claiming that papers you signed were done so without being read, and so the contract should be void?

What logical person would try to do business in such an environment?


Again we're chatting about opinions here so we're not going to agree. People understand that the actions, however stupid they are are against Anglo Irish bank. Why would another Business owner be worried. If you want to reverse that round. I'm sure the crime rate in Dublin is much higher than Fermanagh. So why would any logical person set up business in Dublin? Why not set up somewhere where the crime rate is lower.
The fact of the matter is that Fermanagh was never that popular for Businesses setting up at any stage. There was little economic stimulation from either side of the border until Sean Quinn set up and I can't see that changing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 14, 2012, 04:18:53 PM
Delegates at the Fermanagh GAA County Convention have passed a resolution in support of Sean Quinn and his family.

Sean Quinn was sentenced to nine weeks in jail last November for contempt of court, while his son has also served a prison sentence for failing to comply with court orders to stop putting international assets out of the reach of IBRC, formerly known as Anglo Irish Bank.

The statement read: "Sean Quinn and the Quinn Group has been a very generous supporter of the Fermanagh GAA family for a long time and his exceptional innovative skills have brought great benefits to all Fermanagh people.

"Delegates also expressed concern regarding the future of employment under the direction of the current management who now control the Quinn Group.

"Fermanagh GAA wishes to express their best wishes to Sean and his family at this time and hope that 2013 will bring a favourable conclusion for the Quinn family in their present difficulties."

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Louth Exile on December 14, 2012, 07:51:56 PM
Quote from: orangeman on December 14, 2012, 04:18:53 PM
Delegates at the Fermanagh GAA County Convention have passed a resolution in support of Sean Quinn and his family.

Sean Quinn was sentenced to nine weeks in jail last November for contempt of court, while his son has also served a prison sentence for failing to comply with court orders to stop putting international assets out of the reach of IBRC, formerly known as Anglo Irish Bank.

The statement read: "Sean Quinn and the Quinn Group has been a very generous supporter of the Fermanagh GAA family for a long time and his exceptional innovative skills have brought great benefits to all Fermanagh people.

"Delegates also expressed concern regarding the future of employment under the direction of the current management who now control the Quinn Group.

"Fermanagh GAA wishes to express their best wishes to Sean and his family at this time and hope that 2013 will bring a favourable conclusion for the Quinn family in their present difficulties."

Well Done Fermanagh CB   ::) Bringing more shame on the GAA
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 14, 2012, 08:32:00 PM
Quote from: Louth Exile on December 14, 2012, 07:51:56 PM
Quote from: orangeman on December 14, 2012, 04:18:53 PM
Delegates at the Fermanagh GAA County Convention have passed a resolution in support of Sean Quinn and his family.

Sean Quinn was sentenced to nine weeks in jail last November for contempt of court, while his son has also served a prison sentence for failing to comply with court orders to stop putting international assets out of the reach of IBRC, formerly known as Anglo Irish Bank.

The statement read: "Sean Quinn and the Quinn Group has been a very generous supporter of the Fermanagh GAA family for a long time and his exceptional innovative skills have brought great benefits to all Fermanagh people.

"Delegates also expressed concern regarding the future of employment under the direction of the current management who now control the Quinn Group.

"Fermanagh GAA wishes to express their best wishes to Sean and his family at this time and hope that 2013 will bring a favourable conclusion for the Quinn family in their present difficulties."

Well Done Fermanagh CB   ::) Bringing more shame on the GAA

What else have Fermanagh done to shame the GAA ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on December 14, 2012, 09:56:05 PM
Fair play to Fermanagh. Proper order that he should get their full support.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Nally Stand on December 15, 2012, 12:38:03 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on December 14, 2012, 09:56:05 PM
Fair play to Fermanagh. Proper order that he should get their full support.
+1
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 01:18:59 AM
Why?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 15, 2012, 09:23:50 AM
Quote from: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 01:18:59 AM
Why?
£/€
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on December 15, 2012, 10:40:21 AM
Because he was a great supporter of fermanagh over the years and now that he is going through a rough time he deserves some support back. That is what the GAA is all about. If you don't understand that you need to have a look at yourself.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on December 15, 2012, 11:26:06 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on December 15, 2012, 10:40:21 AM
Because he was a great supporter of fermanagh over the years and now that he is going through a rough time he deserves some support back. That is what the GAA is all about. If you don't understand that you need to have a look at yourself.

Is any consideration given to what he did, or is it unconditional support?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on December 15, 2012, 11:56:07 AM
I can think of a few people who have been very good to the GAA over the years who would be totally blanked if they turned up at the door of any locker room. Shame.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 12:00:51 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on December 15, 2012, 10:40:21 AM
Because he was a great supporter of fermanagh over the years and now that he is going through a rough time he deserves some support back. That is what the GAA is all about. If you don't understand that you need to have a look at yourself.

On your advice, I've taken a reasonably good look a myself in a floor to ceiling wardrobe mirror. It wasn't a pleasant experience, to be honest. Especially as it was a complete waste of time, since it didn't help me at all to understand your proposition that making official statements in support of convicted criminals "is what the GAA is all about", despite your promise that it would. So I'm never doing that again and I'm just going to have to stick with what I always thought before you tried to confuse me - that what the GAA is all about is football, hurling and handball. Oh - and rounders.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on December 15, 2012, 12:16:51 PM
Quote from: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 12:00:51 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on December 15, 2012, 10:40:21 AM
Because he was a great supporter of fermanagh over the years and now that he is going through a rough time he deserves some support back. That is what the GAA is all about. If you don't understand that you need to have a look at yourself.

On your advice, I've taken a reasonably good look a myself in a floor to ceiling wardrobe mirror. It wasn't a pleasant experience, to be honest. Especially as it was a complete waste of time, since it didn't help me at all to understand your proposition that making official statements in support of convicted criminals "is what the GAA is all about", despite your promise that it would. So I'm never doing that again and I'm just going to have to stick with what I always thought before you tried to confuse me - that what the GAA is all about is football, hurling and handball. Oh - and rounders.

He's not a convicted criminal, that's just a blatant lie that renders the rest of your post as a rant of shite.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 01:07:46 PM
Not a lie, a mistake - I neglected to acquaint myself with the difference between criminal and civil contempt. However, despite your eloquent rebuttal, this does not alter one iota the contention that it is no part of the GAA's remit (never mind being "what the GAA is all about") to be officially aligning itself with jailbirds who hold the courts and, by extension, the community in contempt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on December 15, 2012, 01:33:10 PM
Quote from: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 01:07:46 PM
Not a lie, a mistake - I neglected to acquaint myself with the difference between criminal and civil contempt. However, despite your eloquent rebuttal, this does not alter one iota the contention that it is no part of the GAA's remit (never mind being "what the GAA is all about") to be officially aligning itself with jailbirds who hold the courts and, by extension, the community in contempt.

So be it then, you believe in betraying your friends and those who stood by you for most of their life. I'm glad the people of Fermanagh see it otherwise though and that gives me some hope.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 01:56:18 PM
I think you're a little mixed up. That's Mr. Quinn you're describing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on December 15, 2012, 02:57:37 PM
Quote from: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 12:00:51 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on December 15, 2012, 10:40:21 AM
Because he was a great supporter of fermanagh over the years and now that he is going through a rough time he deserves some support back. That is what the GAA is all about. If you don't understand that you need to have a look at yourself.

On your advice, I've taken a reasonably good look a myself in a floor to ceiling wardrobe mirror. It wasn't a pleasant experience, to be honest. Especially as it was a complete waste of time, since it didn't help me at all to understand your proposition that making official statements in support of convicted criminals "is what the GAA is all about", despite your promise that it would. So I'm never doing that again and I'm just going to have to stick with what I always thought before you tried to confuse me - that what the GAA is all about is football, hurling and handball. Oh - and rounders.

It is a lot more than that where I come from. It is about a sense of belonging, friendship, sticking together, community, etc

Maybe not like that in your area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 03:20:20 PM
Sticking together against whom? The rest of the community, including the rest of the GAA membership who are carrying the can for Mr. Quinn's behaviour, that your part of the GAA offficially endorses? That's a kind of belonging that's grand for those belonging but excludes everyone else.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 15, 2012, 06:04:31 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on December 15, 2012, 02:57:37 PM
Quote from: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 12:00:51 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on December 15, 2012, 10:40:21 AM
Because he was a great supporter of fermanagh over the years and now that he is going through a rough time he deserves some support back. That is what the GAA is all about. If you don't understand that you need to have a look at yourself.

On your advice, I've taken a reasonably good look a myself in a floor to ceiling wardrobe mirror. It wasn't a pleasant experience, to be honest. Especially as it was a complete waste of time, since it didn't help me at all to understand your proposition that making official statements in support of convicted criminals "is what the GAA is all about", despite your promise that it would. So I'm never doing that again and I'm just going to have to stick with what I always thought before you tried to confuse me - that what the GAA is all about is football, hurling and handball. Oh - and rounders.

It is a lot more than that where I come from. It is about a sense of belonging, friendship, sticking together, community, etc

Maybe not like that in your area.
Does it just depend on the crime? How much money you have? What's the selection criteria for belonging and sticking together?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 16, 2012, 11:05:32 AM
Quote from: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 03:20:20 PM
Sticking together against whom? The rest of the community, including the rest of the GAA membership who are carrying the can for Mr. Quinn's behaviour, that your part of the GAA offficially endorses? That's a kind of belonging that's grand for those belonging but excludes everyone else.

Hardy, I'm sure there'll be a AGM coming up shortly for your club if it hasn't already happened. If ur that annoyed I'm sure you could raise a motion against any support for Sean Quinn. Sure if you have the support I'm sure you can get it passed. In Fermanagh they're thankfull for the input SQ had, and it seems they believe that he has been unfairly treated. Thankfully the GAA will listen to its members. And if an issue isn't supported it'll not go ahead.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 16, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 15, 2012, 06:04:31 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on December 15, 2012, 02:57:37 PM
Quote from: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 12:00:51 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on December 15, 2012, 10:40:21 AM
Because he was a great supporter of fermanagh over the years and now that he is going through a rough time he deserves some support back. That is what the GAA is all about. If you don't understand that you need to have a look at yourself.

On your advice, I've taken a reasonably good look a myself in a floor to ceiling wardrobe mirror. It wasn't a pleasant experience, to be honest. Especially as it was a complete waste of time, since it didn't help me at all to understand your proposition that making official statements in support of convicted criminals "is what the GAA is all about", despite your promise that it would. So I'm never doing that again and I'm just going to have to stick with what I always thought before you tried to confuse me - that what the GAA is all about is football, hurling and handball. Oh - and rounders.

It is a lot more than that where I come from. It is about a sense of belonging, friendship, sticking together, community, etc

Maybe not like that in your area.
Does it just depend on the crime? How much money you have? What's the selection criteria for belonging and sticking together?
Some years ago two well known GAA individuals were convicted of sexual abuse of young people.
I wonder is EC upset that no GAA unit passed any votes of support for those 2 ?
Obviously  "belonging, friendship, sticking together, community, etc" doesn't apply to everyone  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: All of a Sludden on December 19, 2012, 10:54:42 PM
The governor of Mountjoy Prison consulted the Irish justice minister over the legality of granting compassionate temporary release to jailed former billionaire Sean Quinn.

It is understood that prison governor Ned Whelan sought advice from the Republic's Department of Justice following repeated requests from the Quinn family to release him to attend his granddaughter's christening on Saturday.

Mr Whelan, who received fresh submissions yesterday from Mr Quinn's lawyers, sought advice on whether temporary release could be granted.

The matter has been referred back to the governor, who will decide in the coming days whether to release Mr Quinn or detain him until January 4.

Ireland's justice minister Alan Shatter said last night that he does not comment on individual cases, adding that he will consider applications for temporary release over the Christmas period as has been the case in previous years.

Mr Quinn (left) (66) is serving a nine-week sentence for contempt of court.

His daughter, Ciara, his solicitor and a local priest

from Cavan have all written to Mr Whelan appealing for the businessman to be granted temporary release to attend the christening and spend the following five days with his family.

Cavan Town Council yesterday unanimously passed a motion calling on the governor to grant Mr Quinn temporary release for Christmas.

Deputy mayor and Fianna Fail councillor Paddy Conaty said a fax was sent to Mr Whelan outlining the council's request yesterday morning.

"I made the point that we're not judging, it's not our business to do that and nobody is above the law," said Mr Conaty.

"At the same time, given the man's age and the huge amount of good he did for the area, that can't just simply be forgotten."

Mr Conaty said he understood Mr Quinn was "generally in good form and settling in well" in prison. However, councillors felt he should be released for the sake of his family.

"He's that type of man, he'd be able to stick it out, but it's for his family," he said.

A spokesman for the Irish Prison Service (IPS) said the list of prisoners being granted temporary release for Christmas has not yet been finalised.

The decision on who gets out is made by individual governors in conjunction with IPS operations directors.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 20, 2012, 01:36:18 PM
Do the crime, do the time. Poor Sean.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 01:38:39 PM
No Temporary release for anyone then? I Suppose that would be fair enough.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 20, 2012, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 01:38:39 PM
No Temporary release for anyone then? I Suppose that would be fair enough.

So called republican dissidents are released and have been released for christenings etc etc


Sean Quinn shouldn't be released for a christening ??

Mother of God !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 20, 2012, 03:52:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 01:38:39 PM
No Temporary release for anyone then? I Suppose that would be fair enough.
I find the whole temporary release thing a strange one. I agree it should be consistent and I would be against it in general. If he is entitled to temporary release as an ordinary decent criminal then so be it but I wouldnt advocate special treatment because he is Sean Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on December 20, 2012, 04:06:00 PM
Quote from: orangeman on December 20, 2012, 03:28:13 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 01:38:39 PM
No Temporary release for anyone then? I Suppose that would be fair enough.

So called republican dissidents are released and have been released for christenings etc etc


Sean Quinn shouldn't be released for a christening ??

Mother of God !

Southerners need somebody to blame for the pathetic condition their country is in so why not Sean Quinn. Hang him high!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on December 20, 2012, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 20, 2012, 01:36:18 PM
Do the crime, do the time. Poor Sean.

eh, what CRIME are you referring to??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on December 20, 2012, 04:11:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnYprkUnspI
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 04:17:33 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 20, 2012, 03:52:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 01:38:39 PM
No Temporary release for anyone then? I Suppose that would be fair enough.
I find the whole temporary release thing a strange one. I agree it should be consistent and I would be against it in general. If he is entitled to temporary release as an ordinary decent criminal then so be it but I wouldnt advocate special treatment because he is Sean Quinn.

I'll be honest I don't think much of it either. If your in your in would have been my opinion. But I can understand why Sean would apply for it when it's there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 04:19:24 PM
Quote from: Hardy on December 20, 2012, 04:11:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnYprkUnspI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpmRcP8S7Bo

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 20, 2012, 04:34:52 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on December 20, 2012, 04:06:00 PM

Southerners need somebody to blame for the pathetic condition their country is in so why not Sean Quinn. Hang him high!!
Nothing like a bit of Partitionism . >:(. Mind you I didn't know Munster had declared independence.
I suppose you put yourself down as "Northern Irish" in the census.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 20, 2012, 05:06:12 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on December 20, 2012, 04:07:58 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on December 20, 2012, 01:36:18 PM
Do the crime, do the time. Poor Sean.

eh, what CRIME are you referring to??
Contempt and time don't rhyme.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 20, 2012, 08:53:25 PM
This has sadly become a circular argument between Scientists & Creationists.

The Scientists can point to the money gambled, lost, then covered by Anglo, then all completely lost.

The Creationists skip everything until the Anglo bit ('mistakes were made') and then say it is all Anglo's fault so the Quinns, who did great for the area, are innocent.

As for all of the 'good work' done.

The argument usually goes that there was nothing here before Sean Quinn and that Dublin did nothing for us but Sean Quinn did. This ignores the fact that in the 1970s there was high unemployment and a low standard of living in Sligo, Mayo, Roscommon, Clare etc, etc, etc. The standard of living & employment rate in all of those is far higher now than it was in the 1970s but it wasn't down to Sean Quinn.

But hey, why look beyond the circular argument?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 20, 2012, 09:00:11 PM
Did I hear on the News that he's getting out 24th/25th/26th December.
What's the chances of him returning to the "jurisdiction" I wonder?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: All of a Sludden on December 20, 2012, 09:03:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 20, 2012, 09:00:11 PM
Did I hear on the News that he's getting out 24th/25th/26th December.
What's the chances of him returning to the "jurisdiction" I wonder?

He will be released for Christmas, but will miss his grand daughters christening.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:10:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 20, 2012, 08:53:25 PM
This has sadly become a circular argument between Scientists & Creationists.

The Scientists can point to the money gambled, lost, then covered by Anglo, then all completely lost.

The Creationists skip everything until the Anglo bit ('mistakes were made') and then say it is all Anglo's fault so the Quinns, who did great for the area, are innocent.

As for all of the 'good work' done.

The argument usually goes that there was nothing here before Sean Quinn and that Dublin did nothing for us but Sean Quinn did. This ignores the fact that in the 1970s there was high unemployment and a low standard of living in Sligo, Mayo, Roscommon, Clare etc, etc, etc. The standard of living & employment rate in all of those is far higher now than it was in the 1970s but it wasn't down to Sean Quinn.

But hey, why look beyond the circular argument?

But in Cavan and Fermanagh it was.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 20, 2012, 10:20:31 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:10:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 20, 2012, 08:53:25 PM
This has sadly become a circular argument between Scientists & Creationists.

The Scientists can point to the money gambled, lost, then covered by Anglo, then all completely lost.

The Creationists skip everything until the Anglo bit ('mistakes were made') and then say it is all Anglo's fault so the Quinns, who did great for the area, are innocent.

As for all of the 'good work' done.

The argument usually goes that there was nothing here before Sean Quinn and that Dublin did nothing for us but Sean Quinn did. This ignores the fact that in the 1970s there was high unemployment and a low standard of living in Sligo, Mayo, Roscommon, Clare etc, etc, etc. The standard of living & employment rate in all of those is far higher now than it was in the 1970s but it wasn't down to Sean Quinn.

But hey, why look beyond the circular argument?

But in Cavan and Fermanagh it was.

No it wasn't.

If 5,000 people deliver a successful company, is every inch of that success all down to one man?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:24:35 PM
Not ever inch, but considering he started from scratch, piloted each step of diversion into different sectors, project managed most of them, and controlled them with a hands on approach I believe he can take a right slice of the credit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 20, 2012, 10:28:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:24:35 PM
Not ever inch, but considering he started from scratch, piloted each step of diversion into different sectors, project managed most of them, and controlled them with a hands on approach I believe he can take a right slice of the credit.

As against singularly bringing a number of counties forward by 40 years as is the suggestion?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:32:40 PM
I'd say he's the single biggest reason in Cavan and Fermanagh for job creation over the last 40 years.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 20, 2012, 10:40:19 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:32:40 PM
I'd say he's the single biggest reason in Cavan and Fermanagh for job creation over the last 40 years.

Some man. Did no one else participate in any way?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:46:06 PM
I'm sure they did.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 20, 2012, 11:15:22 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:46:06 PM
I'm sure they did.

'They' probably didn't secretly bet it all on the world's worst bank though.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Aaron Boone on December 20, 2012, 11:16:48 PM
Unless you drive from Derrylin to Ballyconnell, you can't fathom the impact Quinn Group have had. It's immense stuff in a remote area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:18:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 20, 2012, 11:15:22 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:46:06 PM
I'm sure they did.

'They' probably didn't secretly bet it all on the world's worst bank though.

I don't think any one claimed "they" did.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 20, 2012, 11:23:29 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:18:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 20, 2012, 11:15:22 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:46:06 PM
I'm sure they did.

'They' probably didn't secretly bet it all on the world's worst bank though.

I don't think any one claimed "they" did.

But people argue that the one guy who did do it, somehow doesn't have to face the consequences and pay it back, because he was a great fella.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:32:26 PM
Who's saying that? People are saying it should be taken into account regarding applying for temporary release, which I believe is standard enough. The arguments against the loans aren't based on job creation in the past.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 20, 2012, 11:38:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:32:26 PM
Who's saying that? People are saying it should be taken into account regarding applying for temporary release, which I believe is standard enough. The arguments against the loans aren't based on job creation in the past.

You would be the first Quinn supporters I have seen, read or heard say that. And you are correct. Job creation or any other such spin has absolutely nothing to do with his court case. Which makes it all the more annoying to constantly hear it from his supporters.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:54:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 20, 2012, 11:38:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:32:26 PM
Who's saying that? People are saying it should be taken into account regarding applying for temporary release, which I believe is standard enough. The arguments against the loans aren't based on job creation in the past.

You would be the first Quinn supporters I have seen, read or heard say that. And you are correct. Job creation or any other such spin has absolutely nothing to do with his court case. Which makes it all the more annoying to constantly hear it from his supporters.

I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 12:40:41 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:54:35 PM
I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

My understanding is that there were two separate 'loan' arrangements.

The first was a normal loan to the Quinn Group from Anglo (circa €450 as you said). This loan as I understand was not a problem until all of the other issues arose. To my mind belligerence from Anglo on this loan may justify some of the criticism on the part of the Quinn Group.

However there were the other loans.

According to Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (ch 7 page 105) SQ's method was to "buy the market". "He would wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then he would increase his prices".

This might explain why he was the dominant employer in his area.

"Quinn would frequently tell his bankers at Anglo with some pride that each of them (his 5 children) was a billionaire,.."

I know you know what a CFD is and how it works.

page 107:

"In October 2005 Quinn had CFD positions in Anglo, AIB and Bank of Ireland............"

page 108

"From late 2006 Quinn started reducing his investments in these other companies to increase his bet on Anglo."

"Newspaper reports in the early 2007 estimated that Quinn held a large stake, about 5%, in Anglo through CFDs."

"By June of that year, speculation about the size of his stake in the bank had reached fever pitch.....the bank was receiving regular inquiries about Quinn from investors, market analysts and, most crucially, rating agencies...Media speculation in Late August put his stake at about 11%...."


page 109

"At the end of 2007 the Anglo board felt it was time for a face-to-face encounter with Quinn."

page 110

"Before the meeting, Quinn and McCaffrey had discussed whether they should disclose the exact scale of Quinn's stake in Anglo or just tell the bankers that is was 'large'. Quinn wanted to be absolutely upfront with them on the size of the stake, and so he and McCaffery spent a little time working out the percentage.
                                                       Undeterred - or indeed emboldened - by the falling share price, Quinn had spent the previous three months snapping up a large amount of Anglo stock through CFDs. He believed that the price would rise again."


page 111

"After the volley of compliments between Quinn and Fitzpatrick, the 4 men got down to the real business. Fitzpatrick and Drumm asked the question: how big was Quinn's CFD stake in the bank? He replied that he held a stake of about 24% of the shares.
Fitzpatrick and Drumm were gobsmacked. Fitxpatrick physically recoiled in his seat. Drumm late told colleagues that it was the only time he ever saw Fitzpatrick rendered speechless."

"Quinn seemed to turn to Fitzpatrick, a man he admired, for approval. But instead he saw utter dismay. Everyone in the room now understood the gravity of the situation they were in."

"Drumm....told Quinn....that if word got out about the size of his stake in the bank, the share price would most likely collapse, with damaging consequences for the banks funding and deposits."


page 113

I won't qoute it but there was an exchange between Fitzpatrick and the Regulator which according to Carswell suggests the Regulator hadn't a clue about CFDs and didn't understand the gravity of the situation.

page 114

"In the months after the Ardboyne meeting, Quinn did not reduce his stake in Anglo. On the contrary, he gambled even further, increasing his holding to 28 or 29% at its peak during 2008. Quinn clearly didn't take Anglo's concerns about the size of his investment seriously."

There is then a hilarious piece whereby Anglo asked the Regulator (the same one that obviously knew nothing about CFDs on page 113) whether Anglo had to declare the size of Quinn's stake to the market. The Regulator said it didn't as it was a CFD.

page 116 "...and by late 2007 Quinn had loans of just over €1bn with Anglo.............The bank had the added layer of security which it believed would make it bulletproof - it had the full personal guarantee of Sean Quinn on all of his loans" (NB there were no loans against the CFD at this stage).

Anglo believed that Quinn had inflated the share price by taking such a huge stake. While this is hard to prove it seems likely. Quinn may have bought shares, drove the price up to its high of 2007/8, and thought: 'look how well they are doing' and bought some more.

Days after the meeting above the run on Northern Rock began. At that stage Quinn's involvement with Anglo was all of his own doing. The money he lost, was lost by himself, not Anglo. Yes they got involved, to protect themselves, which is under investigation and if they are found guilty of wrong-doing I hope they all serve the maximum penalties.

But the Quinn supporters' sleeveen claims that it was all Anglo's fault and Quinn was somehow a victim, I personally find very galling. We are not stupid.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on December 21, 2012, 01:21:18 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 21, 2012, 12:40:41 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:54:35 PM
I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

My understanding is that there were two separate 'loan' arrangements.

The first was a normal loan to the Quinn Group from Anglo (circa €450 as you said). This loan as I understand was not a problem until all of the other issues arose. To my mind belligerence from Anglo on this loan may justify some of the criticism on the part of the Quinn Group.

However there were the other loans.

According to Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (ch 7 page 105) SQ's method was to "buy the market". "He would wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then he would increase his prices".

This might explain why he was the dominant employer in his area.


But the Quinn supporters' sleeveen claims that it was all Anglo's fault and Quinn was somehow a victim, I personally find very galling. We are not stupid.

As someone "in his area" I can tell you that is not who Quinn operated. Not only that but the dog in the street could tell you that Quinn didn't "corner" the Irish market in glass, insulation, insurance or wind farms. The only people who would spout or believe such bullshite are those determined to find a stick to beat Quinn with and twist the truth.

But I suppose that is considered just another "sleeveen" claim or some other snide derogatory remark.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 01:30:25 AM
Quote from: trileacman on December 21, 2012, 01:21:18 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 21, 2012, 12:40:41 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:54:35 PM
I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

My understanding is that there were two separate 'loan' arrangements.

The first was a normal loan to the Quinn Group from Anglo (circa €450 as you said). This loan as I understand was not a problem until all of the other issues arose. To my mind belligerence from Anglo on this loan may justify some of the criticism on the part of the Quinn Group.

However there were the other loans.

According to Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (ch 7 page 105) SQ's method was to "buy the market". "He would wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then he would increase his prices".

This might explain why he was the dominant employer in his area.


But the Quinn supporters' sleeveen claims that it was all Anglo's fault and Quinn was somehow a victim, I personally find very galling. We are not stupid.

As someone "in his area" I can tell you that is not who Quinn operated. Not only that but the dog in the street could tell you that Quinn didn't "corner" the Irish market in glass, insulation, insurance or wind farms. The only people who would spout or believe such bullshite are those determined to find a stick to beat Quinn with and twist the truth.

But I suppose that is considered just another "sleeveen" claim or some other snide derogatory remark.


And where did I say that he cornered the 'Irish' market?

The mantra is that he was the only one creating jobs in Cavan/Fermanagh.

I assumed Carswell was referring to his local market while building up his companies.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on December 21, 2012, 01:35:50 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 21, 2012, 01:30:25 AM
Quote from: trileacman on December 21, 2012, 01:21:18 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 21, 2012, 12:40:41 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:54:35 PM
I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

My understanding is that there were two separate 'loan' arrangements.

The first was a normal loan to the Quinn Group from Anglo (circa €450 as you said). This loan as I understand was not a problem until all of the other issues arose. To my mind belligerence from Anglo on this loan may justify some of the criticism on the part of the Quinn Group.

However there were the other loans.

According to Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (ch 7 page 105) SQ's method was to "buy the market". "He would wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then he would increase his prices".

This might explain why he was the dominant employer in his area.


But the Quinn supporters' sleeveen claims that it was all Anglo's fault and Quinn was somehow a victim, I personally find very galling. We are not stupid.

As someone "in his area" I can tell you that is not who Quinn operated. Not only that but the dog in the street could tell you that Quinn didn't "corner" the Irish market in glass, insulation, insurance or wind farms. The only people who would spout or believe such bullshite are those determined to find a stick to beat Quinn with and twist the truth.

But I suppose that is considered just another "sleeveen" claim or some other snide derogatory remark.


And where did I say that he cornered the 'Irish' market?

The mantra is that he was the only one creating jobs in Cavan/Fermanagh.

I assumed Carswell was referring to his local market while building up his companies.

Quinn cornered the local Glass market? The local insulation market? Have you any idea how stupid that sounds?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 01:48:01 AM
Quote from: trileacman on December 21, 2012, 01:35:50 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 21, 2012, 01:30:25 AM
Quote from: trileacman on December 21, 2012, 01:21:18 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 21, 2012, 12:40:41 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 11:54:35 PM
I agree totally Muppet, it clouds the genuine "queries" over the dispute with Anglo. The problem is a lot of people on both sides of the argument don't know that much about it when it comes down to it. So it just defaults back to "ah well he created jobs" or the "Sure he still owes 450 m despite the illegal loans arguments" (Forgetting to take account of the group, hotels, wind farms, Quinn Life  etc that have been taken) There's a lot of mis-information out there on both sides.

My understanding is that there were two separate 'loan' arrangements.

The first was a normal loan to the Quinn Group from Anglo (circa €450 as you said). This loan as I understand was not a problem until all of the other issues arose. To my mind belligerence from Anglo on this loan may justify some of the criticism on the part of the Quinn Group.

However there were the other loans.

According to Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (ch 7 page 105) SQ's method was to "buy the market". "He would wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then he would increase his prices".

This might explain why he was the dominant employer in his area.


But the Quinn supporters' sleeveen claims that it was all Anglo's fault and Quinn was somehow a victim, I personally find very galling. We are not stupid.

As someone "in his area" I can tell you that is not who Quinn operated. Not only that but the dog in the street could tell you that Quinn didn't "corner" the Irish market in glass, insulation, insurance or wind farms. The only people who would spout or believe such bullshite are those determined to find a stick to beat Quinn with and twist the truth.

But I suppose that is considered just another "sleeveen" claim or some other snide derogatory remark.


And where did I say that he cornered the 'Irish' market?

The mantra is that he was the only one creating jobs in Cavan/Fermanagh.

I assumed Carswell was referring to his local market while building up his companies.

Quinn cornered the local Glass market? The local insulation market? Have you any idea how stupid that sounds?

Carswell's book provides the quote, I simply took it from his book as I clearly referenced. I am not aware of any case by any Quinn against Carswell so I hope you won't mind if don't take your word for it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 02:10:48 AM
Here is the full paragraph for your indulgence, enjoy:

CH 7 page 105

Quinn's vast fortune was largely derived from his businesses manufacturing building materials, glass, plastics and radiators along a four-mile stretch of road between Ballyconnell in Co. Cavan and Derrylin in Co. Fermanagh, straddling the border. Quinn's method was to build a manufacturing plant to the highest specification, create the lowest cost for every unit he produced and then 'buy the market' by undercutting rivals products. He would the wait - covering losses - while he managed to corner a market and then increase his prices.

The book is about exposing Anglo for what they were, not Quinn, although it does a good job of showing how Quinn blew everything.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on December 21, 2012, 03:58:36 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 20, 2012, 11:15:22 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 20, 2012, 10:46:06 PM
I'm sure they did.

'They' probably didn't secretly bet it all on the world's worst bank though.

The Financial Regulator should have known it was the world's worst bank, run by the world's worst bankers but he didn't. Therein lies the massive problem.

Where have ya been by the way?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 21, 2012, 08:13:54 AM
Muppet, there's few who believe that Sean Quinn was a victim. He put his hands up himself to mistakes he made. And it cost him his own personal wealth and from the looks of it everything he ever built up. But he wanted to work with Anglo to try and pay it back. Instead Anglo decided to try and take everything in a military style take over. Which is fair enough had they done everything by the book themselves. But were they really surprised when SQ decided to fight back and started to expose the corruption of the bank? I know that Senior political representatives now believe they made a c**k up in taking over everything. They would have had a better chance of recovering more of the debt which him on board IMO.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 08:47:56 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 21, 2012, 08:13:54 AM
Muppet, there's few who believe that Sean Quinn was a victim. He put his hands up himself to mistakes he made. And it cost him his own personal wealth and from the looks of it everything he ever built up. But he wanted to work with Anglo to try and pay it back. Instead Anglo decided to try and take everything in a military style take over. Which is fair enough had they done everything by the book themselves. But were they really surprised when SQ decided to fight back and started to expose the corruption of the bank? I know that Senior political representatives now believe they made a c**k up in taking over everything. They would have had a better chance of recovering more of the debt which him on board IMO.

I would be quite happy if the (apparent) Mayan predictions applied to exclusively Anglo. It was the most hideous organisation this state ever produced and that is saying something. But suggesting things would have been better with Sean Quinn on their board is a step too far for me. Remember he is in jail for contempt of count.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 21, 2012, 08:59:45 AM
That's fair enough Muppet, we've all got our opinions. Like I said, I couldn't say for definite that the group would be doing better with SQ on board. But it would be my personal opinion that it would be and that there would be a greater chance of recovering more of the debt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 09:05:23 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 21, 2012, 08:59:45 AM
That's fair enough Muppet, we've all got our opinions. Like I said, I couldn't say for definite that the group would be doing better with SQ on board. But it would be my personal opinion that it would be and that there would be a greater chance of recovering more of the debt.

According to the book Quinn suffered heavy losses during the dotcom crash in the 1990s. You can argue this point both for and against Quinn (e.g. it demonstrates he had a reckless streak or it demonstrated his ability to recover from losses). The book doesn't mention how bad those losses were. Is it common knowledge?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 21, 2012, 09:16:42 AM
I don't know if it was common knowledge at the time as I never heard about it, but it was before my involvement with Quinns at the time so I wouldn't have passed that much interest. But I know it was actually one of the main reasons he diversified into different sectors.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on December 21, 2012, 09:19:13 AM
With all due respect to SQ the country was hit by a financial tsunami in 2008 and it will take many years to get over it. Many more people than him have suffered and many more will in future

2013 will be the year home repossessions really get going

The banks are still fucked as well


http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2012/cr12336.pdf

Financial reform benefits. In the wake of an exceptionally deep financial crisis, with impacts across the system, financial sector reform challenges remain substantial, and there is uncertainty around the timing and magnitude of the benefits of financial sector reforms for reviving banks' profitability and capacity to lend to households and SMEs.

• Debt overhangs. Government debt is set to peak at some 122 percent of GDP, household debt is 209 percent of disposable income, and many SMEs are burdened by property-related loans. These debts drag on growth through private deleveraging, reduced access to credit at higher cost, and concerns about future tax burdens.

• Bank-sovereign loop. These debt stocks are compounded by still large contingent liabilities from the banking system in a scenario where weak growth reduces asset values and heightens loan losses. As a result, the challenges for sovereign and banks in accessing market funding are interlocked, magnifying the growth uncertainties.

• Fiscal drag. Fiscal consolidation will continue to be significant in coming years, with the growth impact depending on the composition of measures and also on external economic conditions and progress in easing credit constraints.
These risks to growth have profound adverse implications for debt sustainability
In these circumstances, Ireland's market access is fragile, and relies crucially on the strength of program implementation, together with forceful delivery on European commitments.


In their updated MTFS, the authorities have reaffirmed their consolidation effort
of €8.6 billion (5 percent of GDP) in 2013–15 (MEFP ¶4–6). The consolidation will continue to be led by current spending, but with revenues contributing close to 40 percent of the savings.


On the current expenditure side, the authorities plan to reduce spending on universal social benefits (e.g., child benefit) and subsidies (e.g., tertiary education), with effective means-tested offsets for welfare recipients and low-income earners. Also under review are options to address the significant fiscal implications of population ageing, as highlighted in the recent actuarial review of the Social Insurance Fund. In relation to public pay—which includes a significant premium over private sector pay (Box 3)— the authorities have begun to engage with public sector unions to secure signif icant additional wage and pension bill savings in the period to 2015, including through additional structural productivity reforms relating to hours worked. Together with plans to cut personnel numbers by another 3½ percent over the next two years,these measures will deliver significant public wage bill reductions.

PCAR (Irish) banks' NPL (non perfoming loan) ratio of 23.1 percent compares with 9.6 percent in Spain , even after a substantial amount of problem assets had already been transferred to NAMA.

Progress on the supporting infrastructure is essential to make the new personal insolvency framework operational in early 2013. A recently appointed Director Designate has been tasked with setting up an Insolvency Service to administer the new framework. Among its initial tasks, the information campaign for all parties concerned with the new framework will be particularly important. In the context of debt relief notices, it will issue guidelines for reasonable household expenditures for debtors, which may usefully inform the broader range of out-of-court arrangements.
Reform of the personal insolvency regime should be complemented by an
effective repossessions process to facilitate durable loan resolution. The number of repossessions in Ireland is very low by international standards, and proceedings often take over a year, although recently banks have intensified collection efforts on investment properties by appointing rent receivers. The authorities will introduce legislation by end March 2013 to address issues identified by case law in repossessions


Source of drag Impact on Bank net revenue as % net assets
High deposit funding costs -0.3
Foregone interest income on NPLs -0.4
o/w: non-cash income recorded on impaired loans -0.3
Tracker mortgages -0.4
Excess operating costs -0.4
ELG fees -0.4
Total -1.9


Risks around medium-term growth prospects are a key source of fragility in Ireland's debt sustainability, in part because prolonged low growth could result in new capital needs in the financial sector.


The reforms of personal insolvency will provide new opportunities for out-of-court resolution of household debt distress, and it is essential that these reforms be complemented by a well functioning repossession process to maintain debt service discipline through the workout process. Continued efforts to lower funding costs, including by orderly withdrawal of the ELG
scheme and steps to reduce operational costs are essential, yet breaking the bank-sovereign loop would have the greatest benefit for strengthening profitability and lending capacity.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 21, 2012, 10:13:43 AM
Nice and cosy  -

Former Anglo Irish Bank chief executive and chairman Seán FitzPatrick has been arrested.

He was arrested by appointment this morning and is being held at Bridewell Garda Station.

Mr FitzPatrick is expected to appear before Dublin District Court this morning.

It is believed he is facing 12 charges in relation to an alleged failure to notify Directors Loans as required under company law.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on December 21, 2012, 01:09:19 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20786750

The Quinn Group cement and quarrying business is in talks to merge with part of the Belfast-based Lagan group.

Quinn Building Products and the Lagan Cement Group have signed a memorandum of understanding that may lead to a joint venture between the two.  The firms employ about 570 people in a variety of locations across Ireland.  If the venture goes ahead it will be the second largest cement supplier in Ireland behind Irish Cement, which is owned by the multinational CRH.  Quinn Building Products supplies cement, concrete, roof tiles and other quarry products from plants at Ballyconnell in County Cavan and Derrylin in County Fermanagh. Other Quinn manufacturing businesses which make insulating products and tarmac are not part of the proposed deal.

The Lagan Cement Group supplies similar products from a large cement plant at Kinnegad in County Meath. It also has a facility in Cork under the Healy Brothers brand.  In Northern Ireland, it operates from Ballystockart quarry, Glengormley, Whitemountain quarry and Temple quarry. It also has a facility in the Netherlands.  The Lagan Sand business is not part of the proposed deal.

Commenting on the proposal the chief executive of Quinn Manufacturing Group, Paul O'Brien and his counterpart at Lagan Cement Group, Jude Lagan, said: "By combining two stable Irish businesses the proposed joint venture will create a sustainable independent cement manufacturer that can continue to support its customers on a competitive basis."  The joint venture discussions are likely to take up to three months to complete and any proposal would be subject to approval by the Republic of Ireland's Competition Authority.  The Quinn business is controlled by a consortium of international banks after it was placed into receivership in 2011.

The Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), the Irish state-owned bank, owns 24.9% of it.  The group was formerly owned by the bankrupt ex-billionaire Sean Quinn.  The Lagan Group is owned by Kevin Lagan, one of Northern Ireland's wealthiest businessmen.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 03, 2013, 10:40:26 AM
Sean's out.


Who's next ?

Can't see any of the Anglo boys ever taking his place. That would just be too costly for the state.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on January 03, 2013, 10:46:21 AM
With out a shadow of a doubt some of the Anglo boys will do time. Seanie Fitz is odds on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 03, 2013, 12:58:02 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 03, 2013, 10:40:26 AM
Sean's out.


Who's next ?

Can't see any of the Anglo boys ever taking his place. That would just be too costly for the state.

Quinn did time for contempt of court. Fitzpatrick hasn't to date been in contempt.

Neither Quinn nor Fitzpatrick are anywhere near the end of their processes yet although Quinn appears further along. I would guess they will both see plenty of time.

Here's hoping.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 03, 2013, 02:19:44 PM
Is there not some "queries" with the type of charges they are going after Seanie Fitz for? I was reading it on another forum that he is being charged under Company law rather than more serious European Market abuse directive? Which is why they haven't moved against anyone else in the maple 10 dealings as they're not company officers.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 03, 2013, 07:49:58 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 03, 2013, 02:19:44 PM
Is there not some "queries" with the type of charges they are going after Seanie Fitz for? I was reading it on another forum that he is being charged under Company law rather than more serious European Market abuse directive? Which is why they haven't moved against anyone else in the maple 10 dealings as they're not company officers.

If they went down that line then surely Sean Quinn would also be charged? If the Maple 10 can be done for market abuse (I know nothing of these EU market abuse directives) then Quinn's current defence could seriously compromise himself?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 04, 2013, 10:04:22 AM
I would imagine so Muppet. That was the point the guys on the other forum were making, that they weren't going after anyone yet from the Maple 10 or the Quinns,  when you would think if there was enough to charge Seanie Fitz et al there would be enough to charge them all.  And that Fitz was being tried under Company law rather than the more severe European Law. They were claiming a cover up because if it was tried under the European Abuse directive, it would open the possibility of Share holders in Anglo suing Anglo, Quinn and Maple 10 under market abuse which would open a whole new can of worms.
To be honest, I don't know enough about company law let alone the European directives to know if this argument is right or not, but just thought that it was interesting. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 05, 2013, 01:43:51 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 04, 2013, 10:04:22 AM
I would imagine so Muppet. That was the point the guys on the other forum were making, that they weren't going after anyone yet from the Maple 10 or the Quinns,  when you would think if there was enough to charge Seanie Fitz et al there would be enough to charge them all.  And that Fitz was being tried under Company law rather than the more severe European Law. They were claiming a cover up because if it was tried under the European Abuse directive, it would open the possibility of Share holders in Anglo suing Anglo, Quinn and Maple 10 under market abuse which would open a whole new can of worms.
To be honest, I don't know enough about company law let alone the European directives to know if this argument is right or not, but just thought that it was interesting.

It appears to be the law now in Ireland (S.I. No. 342 of 2005): http://www.centralbank.ie/regulation/securities-markets/market-abuse/Documents/MarketAbuseRegulations.pdf (http://www.centralbank.ie/regulation/securities-markets/market-abuse/Documents/MarketAbuseRegulations.pdf)

I can't see any great sanctions in the above link so going down the Company Law route at least could put anyone guilty of an offence(s) in jail. From the shareholders POV, surely they could sue anyway using the above SI?

Any legal eagles here willing to comment?




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 07, 2013, 12:42:35 PM
I had always wondered if there was an option of taking private cases against Anglo for both their Fraudelent accounts and the share support. But again I would have thought if that was an option it would have been done by now.
I also see the Quinns are extending they're compensation claim to include the central bank and the Department of Finance. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 07, 2013, 09:23:16 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 07, 2013, 12:42:35 PM
I had always wondered if there was an option of taking private cases against Anglo for both their Fraudelent accounts and the share support. But again I would have thought if that was an option it would have been done by now.
I also see the Quinns are extending they're compensation claim to include the central bank and the Department of Finance.

For what?

'A bold boy made me lose those billions' isn't much of a defence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 07:21:27 AM
Err no. More to do with they're lack of regulation of Anglo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 08, 2013, 07:48:43 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 07:21:27 AM
Err no. More to do with they're lack of regulation of Anglo.

Seriously?

He had no problem with them when he bet his fortune on it, thinking the price would go up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 09:24:22 AM
That doesn't absolve the Central bank of liability. Nor does it prevent they're claim for compensation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on January 08, 2013, 11:11:51 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 09:24:22 AM
That doesn't absolve the Central bank of liability. Nor does it prevent they're claim for compensation.

At least 2 penalty points  :'(
Anyone can claim anything .... up to Courts to decide if they have a case ... but common sense would suggest there isn't one.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 11:25:54 AM
Funny I'd take the opinion of solicitors over yours Ross. And considering there are numerous firms offering no win no fee to the Quinns I'd say they'd feel that the Quinns have a fair chance.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: heganboy on January 08, 2013, 11:50:36 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 11:25:54 AM
Funny I'd take the opinion of solicitors
<pontificating>
It is funny that you would take the opinion of solicitors. Gather facts, or in there absence do the best you can, and then make up your own mind. The conflicting "evidence" in this case being presented as fact to the media is the result of the worst case of CYA and court of public opinion.
Oh, and don't trust lawyers unless they are family. Commercial solicitors are in business to make money, not to provide justice.
</pontificating>
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 11:58:35 AM
When I lack the professional knowledge about something, I'll usually take the advise of informed professionals as a pretty sound grounding. You're right, Commercial solicitors are out to make money.  Therefore when they are prepared to offer no win no fee on such large cases (multi-million) then they obviously believe the Quinns have a strong case.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on January 08, 2013, 03:18:32 PM
Solicitors/Barristers lose cases in Courts every day.
Presumably they had advised their clients that they had  winnable cases . ;) ::)
Most of the Developers/chancers/cowboys from the Celtic tiger Bubble Madness years got short enough shrift from the Courts here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 08, 2013, 03:26:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 09:24:22 AM
That doesn't absolve the Central bank of liability. Nor does it prevent they're claim for compensation.

Do I have this latest throw of the Quinn dice correct?

He is suing the Central Bank and the Dept of Finance for allowing Anglo to lend him money to pay off losses he already had incurred, made independently by himself? And he is looking for compensation??

Anglo's behaviour looks nailed on illegal to me, but Quinn's money was already lost so I see no grounds for compensation there. If anything, in addition to his current predicaments, as an experienced company director he should face a judge for his part in the alleged market manipulation scam.

BTW can you point me to these no win no fee people? I want to have some fun.

Anyone want to join me: The Man who sued God (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0268437/plotsummary)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 04:20:31 PM
Muppet, it isn't Sean Quinn who's taking the case against anglo. It's the Quinn children. They're claiming that anglo had no authority to take over the group on the basic that the loans used to do so were illegal ( and I would say this is nailed on!!). Therefore they are claiming for compensation for losses encurred due to that take over. It was the Dept of Finance who authorised the take over through Anglo, and the Quinns are saying that the dept of Finance knew about the loans previous to doing this.
The compensation claim if successful will be huge.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on January 08, 2013, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 04:20:31 PM
The compensation claim if successful will be huge.
I suppose all ye bucks up North will be happy to see the plain people/taxpayers of the 26 Cos shelling out more money to Celtic Tiger/Bubble cowboys in that case.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 08, 2013, 08:10:42 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 04:20:31 PM
Muppet, it isn't Sean Quinn who's taking the case against anglo. It's the Quinn children. They're claiming that anglo had no authority to take over the group on the basic that the loans used to do so were illegal ( and I would say this is nailed on!!). Therefore they are claiming for compensation for losses encurred due to that take over. It was the Dept of Finance who authorised the take over through Anglo, and the Quinns are saying that the dept of Finance knew about the loans previous to doing this.
The compensation claim if successful will be huge.

Imagine I bought a house using a mortgage from Switzerland. Imagine this mortgage triggered 'margin call' payments every time the property market fell 10%. Imagine that a reckless Irish bank needed to avoid my forced selling of the house due to the margin calls, and lent me the money to pay off my debts to the Swiss bank.

Now because I can't pay back the Irish bank, I plan to go to court to sue them to PAY ME the money that I LOST to the Swiss, because of an illegality concerning the lending by the Irish Bank. In this way I will end up having my house and all my debts written off on a technicality.

Or in others words I will have my cake and eat it.

Every debtor (including mortgage holders) in the country will be checking every document, letter by letter, to have their debts voided if that happens. Which of course it won't.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 10:51:52 PM
Again your starting from the view that its Sean making the claim. Its not. The Quinn family just need to be able to show that the loans were illegal (Can't see this being much of a problem). If they can show this then they can claim the bank acted unlawfully enforcing these claims. And the share support is only one aspect of why the loans were illegal. Their claim is based on more than that.
But we don't need to theory what will happen. The case is due to start in April so we'll find out soon enough how strong it is.w
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on January 08, 2013, 10:59:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2013, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 04:20:31 PM
The compensation claim if successful will be huge.
I suppose all ye bucks up North will be happy to see the plain people/taxpayers of the 26 Cos shelling out more money to Celtic Tiger/Bubble cowboys in that case.

Yep. Because the Quinns will use the money to rebuild their business and create loads of employment. In the long run it will be better for the 26 as well as it will help straighten out a corrupt system.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 08, 2013, 11:07:29 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on January 08, 2013, 10:59:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2013, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 04:20:31 PM
The compensation claim if successful will be huge.
I suppose all ye bucks up North will be happy to see the plain people/taxpayers of the 26 Cos shelling out more money to Celtic Tiger/Bubble cowboys in that case.

Yep. Because the Quinns will use the money to rebuild their business and create loads of employment. In the long run it will be better for the 26 as well as it will help straighten out a corrupt system.

Brilliant!

Seanie Fitzpatrick gave even more employment and as for Bertie, sure was he the greatest employer of them all?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 08, 2013, 11:08:33 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 10:51:52 PM
Again your starting from the view that its Sean making the claim. Its not. The Quinn family just need to be able to show that the loans were illegal (Can't see this being much of a problem). If they can show this then they can claim the bank acted unlawfully enforcing these claims. And the share support is only one aspect of why the loans were illegal. Their claim is based on more than that.
But we don't need to theory what will happen. The case is due to start in April so we'll find out soon enough how strong it is.w

Even if this is proven it will not wipe out the debt which is what you are assuming.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 11:13:42 PM
Well the Quinns have been advised otherwise so I suppose we'll have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on January 08, 2013, 11:16:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 08, 2013, 11:07:29 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on January 08, 2013, 10:59:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2013, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 04:20:31 PM
The compensation claim if successful will be huge.
I suppose all ye bucks up North will be happy to see the plain people/taxpayers of the 26 Cos shelling out more money to Celtic Tiger/Bubble cowboys in that case.

Yep. Because the Quinns will use the money to rebuild their business and create loads of employment. In the long run it will be better for the 26 as well as it will help straighten out a corrupt system.

Brilliant!

Seanie Fitzpatrick gave even more employment and as for Bertie, sure was he the greatest employer of them all?

Yawn. Give up Muppet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on January 09, 2013, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on January 08, 2013, 10:59:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2013, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 04:20:31 PM
The compensation claim if successful will be huge.
I suppose all ye bucks up North will be happy to see the plain people/taxpayers of the 26 Cos shelling out more money to Celtic Tiger/Bubble cowboys in that case.

Yep. Because the Quinns will use the money to rebuild their business and create loads of employment. In the long run it will be better for the 26 as well as it will help straighten out a corrupt system.

And the Krays were good to their mother.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on January 09, 2013, 09:33:02 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on January 09, 2013, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on January 08, 2013, 10:59:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2013, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 04:20:31 PM
The compensation claim if successful will be huge.
I suppose all ye bucks up North will be happy to see the plain people/taxpayers of the 26 Cos shelling out more money to Celtic Tiger/Bubble cowboys in that case.

Yep. Because the Quinns will use the money to rebuild their business and create loads of employment. In the long run it will be better for the 26 as well as it will help straighten out a corrupt system.

And the Krays were good to their mother.

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 09, 2013, 11:07:55 AM
It is really the ultimate each-way bet for the Quinns. Win, they keep the lot. Lose, the system is bent and the pike is in the thatch.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 09, 2013, 11:25:17 AM
Sean Quinn lost a fortune of his own personal wealth on the CFDs. Hardly a no lose suitation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on January 09, 2013, 12:21:04 PM
Should this thread not be retitled "Quinn Maladministration in Insurance?"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 09, 2013, 12:30:10 PM
Quote from: boojangles on January 08, 2013, 11:16:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 08, 2013, 11:07:29 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on January 08, 2013, 10:59:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 08, 2013, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 08, 2013, 04:20:31 PM
The compensation claim if successful will be huge.
I suppose all ye bucks up North will be happy to see the plain people/taxpayers of the 26 Cos shelling out more money to Celtic Tiger/Bubble cowboys in that case.

Yep. Because the Quinns will use the money to rebuild their business and create loads of employment. In the long run it will be better for the 26 as well as it will help straighten out a corrupt system.

Brilliant!

Seanie Fitzpatrick gave even more employment and as for Bertie, sure was he the greatest employer of them all?

Yawn. Give up Muppet.

You should say that to the Quinns.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 14, 2013, 10:07:22 AM
Looks like the share support runs higher than just the Anglo management.

QuoteSOME members of the family of bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn may be called to give evidence for the prosecution in the criminal trials of former Anglo Irish Bank executives, the Commercial Court heard.

Former Anglo chairman Sean Fitzpatrick, former finance director Willie McAteer, and former managing director of the bank in Ireland Pat Whelan are awaiting trial in the Circuit Criminal Court on charges of providing unlawful financial assistance to 16 individuals in July 2008.


As it appears some of the Quinns "are in fact witnesses for the prosecution", they are unlikely to oppose an application by the DPP to defer their own action against the bank pending the outcome of those criminal proceedings, Martin Hayden SC, for the Quinns, told Mr Justice Peter Kelly.


It also emerged today about 250 hours of transcripts of phone conversations dating from 2007 between Anglo, the Department of Finance and the Central Bank (as regulator of Anglo) concerning matters arising from Sean Quinn's building up a stake in the bank to 29.4pc have been discovered by Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (formerly Anglo) for the family's action.


Those transcripts and other documents were provided by IBRC to the Quinn's new lawyers in late November for the purposes of a possible application by the family to have the Central Bank and Department joined as co-defendants in their case.


Mr Hayden said it had only became obvious from the transcripts the "level of interaction" between the Department, Central Bank and Anglo.


His side was "firmly of the view" there were grounds for joining the Department and Central Bank but needed another four weeks to properly review the material.


In their action, the family contend they are not liable for loans of €2.34bn advanced to Quinn companies by Anglo on grounds those loans were unlawful.


Their case was provisionally fixed for hearing on April 9 but is now almost certain not to proceed then in light of the criminal proceedings and the possible application to join the Central Bank and Department.


When the case was mentioned, Mr Hayden sought four weeks to consider whether to join those parties.


Paul Gallagher SC, for IBRC, said the situation was "most unsatisfactory" as the case was in being since 2011 and the Quinns had clearly not yet decided whether to make the joinder application. Any adjournment should be less than four weeks, he said.


Mr Hayden said he was surprised by IBRC's attitude as IBRC had in December secured a month long adjournment of its cross-examination of some of his clients but, when his side wanted a month to examine material discovered in late November, it opposed that.


Mr Justice Kelly said he would grant the four weeks sought but there "must be certainty" about the joinder application when the matter returned to court on February 11th. Any such joinder would "change the whole landscape" and "recast" the family's case, he previously said.


The DPP's application to stay the family's action will come before the judge on January 29 and now appears likely to be unopposed. The DPP wrote to the bank last month saying she believed the family's action raised issues overlapping with issues in criminal proceedings (against Mr Fitzpatrick, Mr McAteer and Mr Whelan).


The overlapping issues relate to alleged breaches of Section 60 of the Companies Act prohibiting a company advancing financial assistance to buy its own shares, the court heard.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 14, 2013, 11:53:54 AM
If Anglo staffers are found to have committed a crime I hope they all go to jail.

However the Quinns imho will still have to pay back all of the loans, illegal or not.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 14, 2013, 12:08:25 PM
Possibly Muppet I don't know enough to say for definite. But I know the Quinns have been advised that they are on a strong footing for getting them overturned. I'm guessing it's something to do with this from Section 60 of the Company's act.

Quote14) Any transaction in breach of this section shall be voidable at the instance of the company against any person (whether a party to the transaction or not) who had notice of the facts which constitute such breach.

But I'm far from in the know with regards to the legal technicalities and even reading about Section 60 would have me confused. 

Out of interest, why are you so certain that if they prove the loans were illegal they will still be liable for them?

But anyway the above articule was more about whether the issue of the loan support ran higher than just the Anglo heirarchy? 


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 15, 2013, 12:36:15 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 14, 2013, 12:08:25 PM
Possibly Muppet I don't know enough to say for definite. But I know the Quinns have been advised that they are on a strong footing for getting them overturned. I'm guessing it's something to do with this from Section 60 of the Company's act.

Quote14) Any transaction in breach of this section shall be voidable at the instance of the company against any person (whether a party to the transaction or not) who had notice of the facts which constitute such breach.

But I'm far from in the know with regards to the legal technicalities and even reading about Section 60 would have me confused. 

Out of interest, why are you so certain that if they prove the loans were illegal they will still be liable for them?

But anyway the above articule was more about whether the issue of the loan support ran higher than just the Anglo heirarchy?

I'm not certain, it is just that the receipt of stolen (or illegal) goods never sits well in any court. It is hard to imagine the courts will say 'keep the €2bn ye mighty Quinns, shur the taxpayer can take it'.

There is also the risk of selecting a line from the act and forming an opinion on it. I have no idea how this might be interpreted for example: "(13) Nothing in this section shall be taken to prohibit—

(a) where the lending of money is part of the ordinary business of the company, the lending of money by the company in the ordinary course of its business;"

I believe there is a law (but I can't find it now) specifically relating to banks and prohibiting them lending to purchase their own shares but this is far more complex. The loans to the Maple 10 appear to be for the purpose of buying Quinn's shares. But what exactly were the loans to Quinn for? Does paying margin calls on a previous transaction constitute buying shares? I find the use of the words 'share support' interesting and can't seem to find them in the Companies Act.

On the 'who knew what?' element, there are those that believe that the info on the attempt to unwind some of Sean Quinn's holding went to the then Government.  Remember this story: http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0109/anglo.html (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0109/anglo.html). It should be noted that Mr. Cowen stated that Anglo was not discussed. Also remember this was only 2 months before the Bank Guarantee and only 4 months after the Bear Sterns debacle and the first wobble of Anglo's share price.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on January 15, 2013, 12:50:05 AM
Surely declaring that a borrower does not have to repay a loan is prejudicial to the interest of depositors in the bank and so contrary to the public good. If the loan is illegal then those who authorised it may be prosecuted, the bank could be fined, but allowing the borrower trouser the loan does not seem good law.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 09:47:05 AM
I would imagine Armaghniac it is to stop the loaner (Anglo) from profiting from loans that were illegal, which would be fair enough in most cases as it would act as a strong deterrent to banks/ finance companies from entering into such transactions.  But I suppose it doesn't take into account the fact that this bank has been privatised. A breach of laws by a financial organisation would be treated more severe than a breach by an individual.

Muppet, I agree there's a lot in this and I don't believe that it'll be a straight forward case. I only pulled that reference out of the company's act to show that's it's not going to be a dry cut case. TBH I don't even know if that's what the Quinns are basing their case on. There's obviously much more than that to come out. There's issues over when the bank sought the personal guarantees, claims that they tried to get retrospective documents signed months and years later, when it looked like the Loans could not be repaid etc. So there'll be a lot to run in it as well and I'd imagine there's be a lot of dirty laundry on show from both sides.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on January 15, 2013, 11:44:12 AM
QuoteI would imagine Armaghniac it is to stop the loaner (Anglo) from profiting from loans that were illegal,

I know feck all about law, but I imagine that a bank would not be able to charge interest on a dodgy loan, that is their "profit". But the borrower would not be able to keep the principal.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 12:17:41 PM
The Quinns (The Children and Patricia) argument is that they didn't profit from the loans as they received no money or assets from the loans. The loans were used to meet margin calls by SQ and were for the benefit of the bank (To stop the shares pouring onto the market) and not for them.  They claim the loans were then retrospectively attached to assets the children owned outright.
So it's far from straight forward on who will take the hit on the loans.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 15, 2013, 12:39:53 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 12:17:41 PM
The Quinns (The Children and Patricia) argument is that they didn't profit from the loans as they received no money or assets from the loans. The loans were used to meet margin calls by SQ and were for the benefit of the bank (To stop the shares pouring onto the market) and not for them.  They claim the loans were then retrospectively attached to assets the children owned outright.
So it's far from straight forward on who will take the hit on the loans.

That is a remarkable explanation.

Did Sean Quinn or the Quinn group benefit in any way by these loans covering his margin calls? Who gave personal guarantees covering these loans?

The idiotic thing about this whole thing is that, in my honest opinion, if the Quinn children's argument is what they say it is, then they should be suing their father. That is just my opinion which is not a qualified one.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on January 15, 2013, 12:44:33 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 12:17:41 PM
The Quinns (The Children and Patricia) argument is that they didn't profit from the loans as they received no money or assets from the loans. The loans were used to meet margin calls by SQ and were for the benefit of the bank (To stop the shares pouring onto the market) and not for them.  They claim the loans were then retrospectively attached to assets the children owned outright.
So it's far from straight forward on who will take the hit on the loans.

Surely the benefit that the Quinns received from the loans is that they didn't have to meet the margin call from other sources or their own resources??  I know these CFDs can be complex but if I am liable to pay €1mill to settle a CFD but the shares are only worth €800k then I'm bucked for €200k which I have to pay.  I can pay from my own resources if I have a spare €200k resting in my account or, as looks to have happened in this case, I can borrow €200k to meet the shortfall.  I'm still €200k down but the margin call has been settled and therefore in a sense I have "profited"??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 12:59:01 PM
Neither the Group or the Quinn children benefitted at all from the covering of the marginal calls. It just levered more debt against the company. Sean Quinn benefitted in that he wasn't made bankrupt over the marginal calls (But was subsequently made bankrupt anyway) and had hoped he would trade out of it.

The personal guarantees are another area of debate. The Quinn Children claim they signed documents long after the loans had been agreed and forwarded. There's also debate over what exactly was signed and whether Anglo have all the proper loan documentation signed, whether they bank provided the proper legal advise etc 

QuoteThe idiotic thing about this whole thing is that, in my honest opinion, if the Quinn children's argument is what they say it is, then they should be suing their father. That is just my opinion which is not a qualified one

I think you are right, and they may have to do that. But that won't absolve Anglo. They will be suing Anglo as well.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 15, 2013, 01:01:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 12:59:01 PM
Neither the Group or the Quinn children benefitted at all from the covering of the marginal calls. It just levered more debt against the company. Sean Quinn benefitted in that he wasn't made bankrupt over the marginal calls (But was subsequently made bankrupt anyway) and had hoped he would trade out of it.

The personal guarantees are another area of debate. The Quinn Children claim they signed documents long after the loans had been agreed and forwarded. There's also debate over what exactly was signed and whether Anglo have all the proper loan documentation signed, whether they bank provided the proper legal advise etc 

QuoteThe idiotic thing about this whole thing is that, in my honest opinion, if the Quinn children's argument is what they say it is, then they should be suing their father. That is just my opinion which is not a qualified one

I think you are right, and they may have to do that. But that won't absolve Anglo. They will be suing Anglo as well.

If, and I emphasise the word if, SQ had put up any part(s) of the Group as collateral against the original CFDs, then the Group would have benefitted from the loans covering the margin calls.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
Is Quinn Insurance still in administration?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 01:06:20 PM
Quote from: AQMP on January 15, 2013, 12:44:33 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 12:17:41 PM
The Quinns (The Children and Patricia) argument is that they didn't profit from the loans as they received no money or assets from the loans. The loans were used to meet margin calls by SQ and were for the benefit of the bank (To stop the shares pouring onto the market) and not for them.  They claim the loans were then retrospectively attached to assets the children owned outright.
So it's far from straight forward on who will take the hit on the loans.

Surely the benefit that the Quinns received from the loans is that they didn't have to meet the margin call from other sources or their own resources??  I know these CFDs can be complex but if I am liable to pay €1mill to settle a CFD but the shares are only worth €800k then I'm bucked for €200k which I have to pay.  I can pay from my own resources if I have a spare €200k resting in my account or, as looks to have happened in this case, I can borrow €200k to meet the shortfall.  I'm still €200k down but the margin call has been settled and therefore in a sense I have "profited"??

Sorry AQMP, I was replying to Muppet. But it kind of answers your question too. The Quinn chuildren recieved no benefit because the call on the CFD's wasn't to them or to the group. It was to SQ directly. So while the CFD house could go after SQ for everything he had based on the marginal calls, they wouldn't have been able to touch the assets of the childrens. and that included the group and the overseas property that are now in dispute.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 15, 2013, 01:01:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 12:59:01 PM
Neither the Group or the Quinn children benefitted at all from the covering of the marginal calls. It just levered more debt against the company. Sean Quinn benefitted in that he wasn't made bankrupt over the marginal calls (But was subsequently made bankrupt anyway) and had hoped he would trade out of it.

The personal guarantees are another area of debate. The Quinn Children claim they signed documents long after the loans had been agreed and forwarded. There's also debate over what exactly was signed and whether Anglo have all the proper loan documentation signed, whether they bank provided the proper legal advise etc 

QuoteThe idiotic thing about this whole thing is that, in my honest opinion, if the Quinn children's argument is what they say it is, then they should be suing their father. That is just my opinion which is not a qualified one

I think you are right, and they may have to do that. But that won't absolve Anglo. They will be suing Anglo as well.

If, and I emphasise the word if, SQ had put up any part(s) of the Group as collateral against the original CFDs, then the Group would have benefitted from the loans covering the margin calls.

Yeah I agree. But remember the group wasn't SQ's asset to put up. It's ownership was split between the children so would have to have been done through them. And I know they claim to have had no involvement in the CFD's but whether that's true or not now I don't know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 15, 2013, 01:57:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
Is Quinn Insurance still in administration?

Quinn Insurance is still in administration. But it's only to deal with the open and historic claims that Liberty didn't take on. They don't write any new policies. And any renewals are transfered to Liberty Insurance
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on January 15, 2013, 04:52:19 PM
QuoteQuinn Insurance is still in administration. But it's only to deal with the open and historic claims that Liberty didn't take on.

I see the new COO has plenty of experience in working in busted insurance companies. Ex PMPA
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on January 24, 2013, 07:37:00 AM
The trial of three former senior Anglo Irish Bank Executives in connection with alleged financial irregularities at the Bank is due to take place next year.
The former chairman and chief executive Sean FitzPatrick, the former finance director Willie McAteer and the former managing director in Ireland Patrick Whelan are all charged with 16 offences under the Companies Act.
The Circuit Criminal Court was told today that 24 million documents may have to be considered before the trial can begin.
They are accused of permitting Anglo Irish Bank to give financial assistance to Patricia Quinn, her five children and ten senior clients of the bank, who became known as the 'Maple Ten', to enable them to buy shares in the bank
The Circuit Criminal Court was told today that 24 million documents may have to be considered before the trial can begin.
Prosecuting counsel Una Ni Raifteraigh said disclosure in the case was complex and that it was not simply about supplying the material to the defence, it was also a matter of culling and organising it.
She also said the defence needed to be given an adequate opportunity to absorb the material.
Judge Ellen Ring set a trial date of January 13th next year and said if it cannot be done by then it says something about the system.
The judge was also told the trial is expected to last at least three months.
The three were remanded on continuing bail to appear again on 6th March.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hound on January 24, 2013, 09:00:10 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 14, 2013, 12:08:25 PM
Possibly Muppet I don't know enough to say for definite. But I know the Quinns have been advised that they are on a strong footing for getting them overturned. I'm guessing it's something to do with this from Section 60 of the Company's act.

Quote14) Any transaction in breach of this section shall be voidable at the instance of the company against any person (whether a party to the transaction or not) who had notice of the facts which constitute such breach.

But I'm far from in the know with regards to the legal technicalities and even reading about Section 60 would have me confused. 

Out of interest, why are you so certain that if they prove the loans were illegal they will still be liable for them?

But anyway the above articule was more about whether the issue of the loan support ran higher than just the Anglo heirarchy?

Quote from: armaghniac on January 15, 2013, 12:50:05 AM
Surely declaring that a borrower does not have to repay a loan is prejudicial to the interest of depositors in the bank and so contrary to the public good. If the loan is illegal then those who authorised it may be prosecuted, the bank could be fined, but allowing the borrower trouser the loan does not seem good law.

Not sure if there have been any more developments on this particular issue over the last couple of weeks, so this might be moot, while I'm not a lawyer, I have come across Section 60 issues.

A loan being void doesn't mean it disappears. The money is still owed. You're supposed to pay back a void loan immediately (so it'd be as if it never happened). If the borrower does not pay it back, the lender still has the right to sue for it.

However, if the borrower was unaware there was a Section 60 issue, while he still owes the money, there would be a serious questionmark around whether any security or other guarantees given by the borrower would still be valid (from my experience I'd say the security is almost certainly not valid and any personal guarantees would be unlikely to be valid).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 24, 2013, 10:00:21 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 24, 2013, 09:00:10 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 14, 2013, 12:08:25 PM
Possibly Muppet I don't know enough to say for definite. But I know the Quinns have been advised that they are on a strong footing for getting them overturned. I'm guessing it's something to do with this from Section 60 of the Company's act.

Quote14) Any transaction in breach of this section shall be voidable at the instance of the company against any person (whether a party to the transaction or not) who had notice of the facts which constitute such breach.

But I'm far from in the know with regards to the legal technicalities and even reading about Section 60 would have me confused. 

Out of interest, why are you so certain that if they prove the loans were illegal they will still be liable for them?

But anyway the above articule was more about whether the issue of the loan support ran higher than just the Anglo heirarchy?

Quote from: armaghniac on January 15, 2013, 12:50:05 AM
Surely declaring that a borrower does not have to repay a loan is prejudicial to the interest of depositors in the bank and so contrary to the public good. If the loan is illegal then those who authorised it may be prosecuted, the bank could be fined, but allowing the borrower trouser the loan does not seem good law.

Not sure if there have been any more developments on this particular issue over the last couple of weeks, so this might be moot, while I'm not a lawyer, I have come across Section 60 issues.

A loan being void doesn't mean it disappears. The money is still owed. You're supposed to pay back a void loan immediately (so it'd be as if it never happened). If the borrower does not pay it back, the lender still has the right to sue for it.

However, if the borrower was unaware there was a Section 60 issue, while he still owes the money, there would be a serious questionmark around whether any security or other guarantees given by the borrower would still be valid (from my experience I'd say the security is almost certainly not valid and any personal guarantees would be unlikely to be valid).

Would this argument require people who were company directors to claim they were unaware of the Companies Act?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on January 24, 2013, 10:41:28 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 24, 2013, 10:00:21 AM
Quote from: Hound on January 24, 2013, 09:00:10 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 14, 2013, 12:08:25 PM
Possibly Muppet I don't know enough to say for definite. But I know the Quinns have been advised that they are on a strong footing for getting them overturned. I'm guessing it's something to do with this from Section 60 of the Company's act.

Quote14) Any transaction in breach of this section shall be voidable at the instance of the company against any person (whether a party to the transaction or not) who had notice of the facts which constitute such breach.

But I'm far from in the know with regards to the legal technicalities and even reading about Section 60 would have me confused. 

Out of interest, why are you so certain that if they prove the loans were illegal they will still be liable for them?

But anyway the above articule was more about whether the issue of the loan support ran higher than just the Anglo heirarchy?

Quote from: armaghniac on January 15, 2013, 12:50:05 AM
Surely declaring that a borrower does not have to repay a loan is prejudicial to the interest of depositors in the bank and so contrary to the public good. If the loan is illegal then those who authorised it may be prosecuted, the bank could be fined, but allowing the borrower trouser the loan does not seem good law.

Not sure if there have been any more developments on this particular issue over the last couple of weeks, so this might be moot, while I'm not a lawyer, I have come across Section 60 issues.

A loan being void doesn't mean it disappears. The money is still owed. You're supposed to pay back a void loan immediately (so it'd be as if it never happened). If the borrower does not pay it back, the lender still has the right to sue for it.

However, if the borrower was unaware there was a Section 60 issue, while he still owes the money, there would be a serious questionmark around whether any security or other guarantees given by the borrower would still be valid (from my experience I'd say the security is almost certainly not valid and any personal guarantees would be unlikely to be valid).

Would this argument require people who were company directors to claim they were unaware of the Companies Act?

Yes. Does that seem odd to you?.  I would guarantee that most of the company directors in the country do not know the intricacies of the Companies Act.  That's why company directors employ Solicitors and Accountants.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 24, 2013, 10:47:09 AM
Quote from: Franko on January 24, 2013, 10:41:28 AM
Yes. Does that seem odd to you?.  I would guarantee that most of the company directors in the country do not know the intricacies of the Companies Act.  That's why company directors employ Solicitors and Accountants.

'Unaware' is not the same as 'do not know the intricacies of'.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on January 24, 2013, 10:59:28 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 24, 2013, 10:47:09 AM
Quote from: Franko on January 24, 2013, 10:41:28 AM
Yes. Does that seem odd to you?.  I would guarantee that most of the company directors in the country do not know the intricacies of the Companies Act.  That's why company directors employ Solicitors and Accountants.

'Unaware' is not the same as 'do not know the intricacies of'.

Company law is company law. If you are a director you are bound by the law. You can't say, Jesus I didn't know that. Its a bit like someone saying to a guard "oh I didn't know you can't use a mobile phone when driving, when did they change that law"

I also can't see how Quinn could say he was unaware of  Section 60. He was borrowing money to meet the margin calls. How could you argue, Jesus I didn't think that might be against company law. Not when you have surrounded yourself with a team of lawyers.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on January 24, 2013, 10:59:41 AM
If that's the case then the answer to your original question is no.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on January 24, 2013, 11:44:36 AM
Ah jeez, the first thing you're taught in law is that ignorance of the is no defence!

Counter-sue the lawyers for losses suffered as a result of their advice but the opening liability still remains with the person whose actions are subject to the law (i.e. directors).       
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 24, 2013, 01:37:07 PM
Quote from: gerrykeegan on January 24, 2013, 10:59:28 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 24, 2013, 10:47:09 AM
Quote from: Franko on January 24, 2013, 10:41:28 AM
Yes. Does that seem odd to you?.  I would guarantee that most of the company directors in the country do not know the intricacies of the Companies Act.  That's why company directors employ Solicitors and Accountants.

'Unaware' is not the same as 'do not know the intricacies of'.

Company law is company law. If you are a director you are bound by the law. You can't say, Jesus I didn't know that. Its a bit like someone saying to a guard "oh I didn't know you can't use a mobile phone when driving, when did they change that law"

I also can't see how Quinn could say he was unaware of  Section 60. He was borrowing money to meet the margin calls. How could you argue, Jesus I didn't think that might be against company law. Not when you have surrounded yourself with a team of lawyers.

I think people are getting a bit confused here. The breaking of section 60 has been aimed at Anglo Employees (Fitz Dunne etc) not the Quinns. The talk in this thread previously about breach of the companies act is by Anglo not the Quinns, ie the company doing the lending. The Quinns may have broken other laws (I couldn't tell you as I don't have the legal knowledge) with regards taking out the loans. But this Section 60 breach is only against company (Anglo) officials.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on January 24, 2013, 02:12:00 PM

I'll be really interested to see how this works out.  I've done a few "financial assistance" pieces of work previously when our clients were facilitating/funding acquisitions and we went down the special resolution route set out similar to s.60.  That legislation no longer exists in the UK so haven't encountered it in a while.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on January 24, 2013, 02:22:50 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 14, 2013, 12:08:25 PM
Possibly Muppet I don't know enough to say for definite. But I know the Quinns have been advised that they are on a strong footing for getting them overturned. I'm guessing it's something to do with this from Section 60 of the Company's act.

Quote14) Any transaction in breach of this section shall be voidable at the instance of the company against any person (whether a party to the transaction or not) who had notice of the facts which constitute such breach.

But I'm far from in the know with regards to the legal technicalities and even reading about Section 60 would have me confused. 

Out of interest, why are you so certain that if they prove the loans were illegal they will still be liable for them?

But anyway the above articule was more about whether the issue of the loan support ran higher than just the Anglo heirarchy?

I certainly took from this you were suggesting that the Quinns (under Section 60) were looking to have the loans voided. Hound pointed out that even voidable loans are still due.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 24, 2013, 02:34:07 PM
Yeah the Quinns are looking to get the Loans voided due to breaches under section 60. But those breaches are by Anglo not the Quinns. Your line
QuoteI also can't see how Quinn could say he was unaware of  Section 60. He was borrowing money to meet the margin calls. How could you argue, Jesus I didn't think that might be against company law. Not when you have surrounded yourself with a team of lawyers.
implies that you think it was the Quinns that were in breach of section 60.

Hound also says

QuoteHowever, if the borrower was unaware there was a Section 60 issue, while he still owes the money, there would be a serious questionmark around whether any security or other guarantees given by the borrower would still be valid (from my experience I'd say the security is almost certainly not valid and any personal guarantees would be unlikely to be valid).

And considering Anglo used the personal guarantees to take control of the Quinn group and the foreign assets this would throw whether that was legal into doubt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on January 24, 2013, 02:52:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 24, 2013, 02:34:07 PM
Yeah the Quinns are looking to get the Loans voided due to breaches under section 60. But those breaches are by Anglo not the Quinns. Your line
QuoteI also can't see how Quinn could say he was unaware of  Section 60. He was borrowing money to meet the margin calls. How could you argue, Jesus I didn't think that might be against company law. Not when you have surrounded yourself with a team of lawyers.
implies that you think it was the Quinns that were in breach of section 60.

Hound also says

QuoteHowever, if the borrower was unaware there was a Section 60 issue, while he still owes the money, there would be a serious questionmark around whether any security or other guarantees given by the borrower would still be valid (from my experience I'd say the security is almost certainly not valid and any personal guarantees would be unlikely to be valid).

And considering Anglo used the personal guarantees to take control of the Quinn group and the foreign assets this would throw whether that was legal into doubt.

First of all you are way better at using the quote feature than me! But I will try.

My
QuoteI also can't see how Quinn could say he was unaware of  Section 60. He was borrowing money to meet the margin calls. How could you argue, Jesus I didn't think that might be against company law. Not when you have surrounded yourself with a team of lawyers.

was actually in response to Hound saying

QuoteHowever, if the borrower was unaware there was a Section 60 issue, while he still owes the money, there would be a serious questionmark around whether any security or other guarantees given by the borrower would still be valid (from my experience I'd say the security is almost certainly not valid and any personal guarantees would be unlikely to be valid).


If the loans are still due (be it legitimate or voidable) then Anglo would still have been able to take over the group, would they not?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 24, 2013, 03:10:05 PM
I've only just got on to this quoting lark lately myself.  :D Not quite up to EG standard but i'm learning!!

I think the whole Company 60 bit got mixed up previously and may have been due to me not explaining it right the first time. But the breaches of it were by Anglo loaning money to re-invest it in itself. From my understanding The Quinns aren't liable under the company's act as they aren't part of the company doing the lending (They may be liable for under other laws or sections I honestly don't know).

As regards to whether the loans were enforceable I don't know. If the personal guarantees and the securities were voided as well. I honestly don't know how that affects how the loans can be enforced or what they could go after?  Maybe Hound could advise?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 07, 2013, 09:05:16 AM
I'd imagine the sham last night is hardly good news for the Quinn family. Will this be enough to prevent them taking their compensation case against IBRC considering it will cease to exist? Or will it transfer onto Nama?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 07, 2013, 03:20:51 PM
Well from reading the draft all proceedings against IBRC are halted, while NAMA are still able to continue with all cases on behalf of the IBRC. Sounds like a win win suitation for the State.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on February 07, 2013, 09:47:03 PM
 Quinn family to fight Ireland debt deal in court

Rodney Edwards • Published 7 Feb 2013 20:20   


The Quinn family will challenge parts of Ireland's new debt legislation in court, impartialreporter.com can reveal.

The former Anglo Irish Bank was liquidated last night after Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny passed emergency legislation to restructure payments for loans borrowed to bail-out Anglo. The deal agreed by the European Central Bank means the repayments have been placed into a long-term bond lasting 40 years.

The development has resulted in the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation - the entity made up of the former Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society -- being wound up and all of its assets being transferred to the National Management Agency (NAMA).

The Bill also provides for an immediate stay on all proceedings against IBRC and no further action can be issued against the bank without the consent of the High Court. It also states that IBRC is taking a number of actions against prominent developers over recovery of debts.

Essentially that means the family of former Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn can no longer sue Anglo/IBRC over the legality of €2.3 billion in debts, but the bank can still sue them in order to recover what it says the family owe.

In terms of the Quinn story, today's development is extraordinary, but what happens next could be even more unprecedented.

In a bold move, impartialreporter.com understands the family will challenge the legislation in court.

And in addition to suing the former Anglo Irish Bank and the receiver of the Quinn Group, we can also reveal that the Quinn family is to sue the Irish Regulator and the Department of Finance as well.

"It would appear there are constitutional issues and so this is yet another hurdle for the family, but the Quinns will fight this in the days, months and years ahead."

"The legislation was passed hoping the family would drop their case, but that won't be happening. The family is very confident of achieving a positive result and are more determined than ever," said a source
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on February 07, 2013, 10:08:07 PM
Quote
QuoteEssentially that means the family of former Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn can no longer sue Anglo/IBRC over the legality of €2.3 billion in debts, but the bank can still sue them in order to recover what it says the family owe.

Don't see how that would appear fair to any reasonable person.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 08, 2013, 10:54:28 AM
For a crowd that are "bankrupt" the Quinns seem to have no problem with hiring Barristers and traipsing through the Courts morning, noon and night.
They sicken my hole  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 08, 2013, 01:21:15 PM
No way? Wouldn't have guessed that.
Maybe use your head a little. I don't think the Quinns have an option on a lot of the court apperances.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tommysmith on February 08, 2013, 01:26:09 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 07, 2013, 10:08:07 PM
Quote
QuoteEssentially that means the family of former Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn can no longer sue Anglo/IBRC over the legality of €2.3 billion in debts, but the bank can still sue them in order to recover what it says the family owe.

Don't see how that would appear fair to any reasonable person.

I have to say when all this started i though the Quinns were at fault, lately i am not so sure.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on February 08, 2013, 01:37:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 08, 2013, 10:54:28 AM
For a crowd that are "bankrupt" the Quinns seem to have no problem with hiring Barristers and traipsing through the Courts morning, noon and night.
They sicken my hole  >:(

The depths the Irish government are going to to prevent the Quinns having their day in court has a nasty smell to it alright.

Will the truth ever come out?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on February 08, 2013, 02:42:02 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on February 08, 2013, 01:37:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 08, 2013, 10:54:28 AM
For a crowd that are "bankrupt" the Quinns seem to have no problem with hiring Barristers and traipsing through the Courts morning, noon and night.
They sicken my hole  >:(

The depths the Irish government are going to to prevent the Quinns having their day in court has a nasty smell to it alright.

Will the truth ever come out?

I think that may very well be the case.

It would not surprise me if a deal is now done with Nama.
The 'debt' is now on their book.  They have done deals with most of the major developers.
The will not have the baggage that IRBS had with the Quinn's and it may be a chance for both parties to try and come to some sort of compromise.

The Government does not want this going to court.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 08, 2013, 04:13:06 PM
NAMA has been far more successful at extracting what it is owed than the IBRC/Anglo. That is one of the reasons why IBRC was shut down and everything moved to NAMA.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 08, 2013, 04:31:25 PM
I think the days of a compromise have been and gone. I don't see NAMA making a U-turn on what Anglo had been doing. I would love to have seen the Quinns continue with this case but I think the Irish state have made it pretty clear that they are not prepared to allow that to happen at any costs.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 08, 2013, 04:33:17 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 08, 2013, 04:31:25 PM
I think the days of a compromise have been and gone. I don't see NAMA making a U-turn on what Anglo had been doing. I would love to have seen the Quinns continue with this case but I think the Irish state have made it pretty clear that they are not prepared to allow that to happen at any costs.

At this stage I am expecting a Quinn to announce that they are doing this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0268437/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0268437/)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 08, 2013, 04:38:55 PM
They'd have more chance of getting him than the Irish state. At least god might play fair. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on February 08, 2013, 05:08:43 PM
God probably keeps receipts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 10, 2013, 09:09:50 AM
Quote from: tommysmith on February 08, 2013, 01:26:09 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 07, 2013, 10:08:07 PM
Quote
QuoteEssentially that means the family of former Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn can no longer sue Anglo/IBRC over the legality of €2.3 billion in debts, but the bank can still sue them in order to recover what it says the family owe.

Don't see how that would appear fair to any reasonable person.

I have to say when all this started i though the Quinns were at fault, lately i am not so sure.

I have to say when all this started that I thought that the government were not deliberately trying to stroke the Quinns. Now I am sure they've stroked them !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on February 10, 2013, 09:27:54 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 08, 2013, 05:08:43 PM
God probably keeps receipts.

They are just using the Bertie defence. If it's good enough for the Taoiseach.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 10, 2013, 03:48:49 PM
Quote from: FermGael on February 10, 2013, 09:27:54 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 08, 2013, 05:08:43 PM
God probably keeps receipts.

They are just using the Bertie defence. If it's good enough for the Taoiseach.
No one believed him either  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on February 10, 2013, 09:51:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 10, 2013, 03:48:49 PM
Quote from: FermGael on February 10, 2013, 09:27:54 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on February 08, 2013, 05:08:43 PM
God probably keeps receipts.

They are just using the Bertie defence. If it's good enough for the Taoiseach.
No one believed him either  ;)

Maybe but he still got away with it
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2013, 03:45:49 PM
Quote
Members of Seán Quinn's family have been given permission by the Commercial Court to bring a challenge to a section of the recently passed IBRC legislation, which places a stay on legal proceedings against the liquidated bank.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly said the court was faced with "something of a conundrum" as the Quinns' case against IBRC was before the court for mention today.

The judge said the IBRC Act had been passed into law yet no one could get a copy of it. This was an unsatisfactory situation, he said.

A section of the Act provided for an immediate stay on all proceedings against IBRC and the Quinns were asking for leave to bring a case seeking to have that stay lifted.

The judge said his first concern was there was no jurisdiction in the Act to lift that stay but there appeared to be provision to permit new proceedings.

The issues would have to be argued before the Court he said, adding that this was the first of a number of cases against IBRC before the Commercial Court and the outcome would have implications for all litigation affected by the stay.

A hearing of the application will be held on 7 March.

The Quinns' case against IBRC claims they are not liable for €2.34bn in loans, which they claim were unlawfully given to prop up the bank's share price.

The case was due before the Commercial Court today to consider an application by the Quinns to join others to the case.

Counsel for the Quinns, Ross Alyward, said the family were seeking liberty to bring a motion asking the Court to lift the stay on proceedings against the bank provided for in the new legislation.

He said the jurisdiction of the court to lift the stay would be a matter for debate. Senior Counsel for the liquidator Paul Gallagher said there was no objection to the bringing of the application.

Mr Justice Kelly asked if anyone had been able to get a copy of the Act as passed and was told by Paul Gallagher it was "not available at the moment".

The judge said it was "very unsatisfactory that we all have to work within an Act and can't get a copy of it, and we are left conjecturing as to whether there were any amendments" before it was passed.

He granted liberty to bring the application and said the Court would have to construe the provisions of the act to see if there was jurisdiction to deal with the stay.

The case was the first major litigation against the bank in the Commercial Court list to arise since the legislation.

However there were many others which all appear to be captured by the stay, Mr Justice Kelly said, adding that it would have implications for all litigation affected by the stay.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 01:07:02 PM
And it rumbles on.

(Irish times)
QuoteThe family of bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn has claimed the insolvency of Irish Bank Resolution Corporation means the courts must urgently lift orders freezing their accounts below €50 million each and preventing them transferring assets in their international property group. The bank's undertaking for damges on foot of which it got those orders is now "valueless", the family claim.

Alternatively, the family say the special liquidators of IBRC must lodge up to US$500 million dollars in court to meet any claim for damages should they win the case.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly said the matter was urgent and he would hear it next Monday. The price of an injunction is an undertaking for damages from the party seeking that injunction and it would be wrong to permit a "worthless" or "hollow" undertaking" from an insolvent entity, he said.

Aoife Quinn said in an affidavit it was clear from recent remarks of IBRC special liquidator Kieran Wallace any claim the Quinns may have on foot of the bank's undertakings for damages will rank as "an unsecured debt which Anglo will be unable to satisfy".

The freezing orders have caused considerable loss to her family and it is "no longer just, equitable or conscionable" that they remain in place, she said.

The orders had led to termination of standing orders and direct debits on the accounts of herself, her siblings and other family members which had led to non-payment of a range of expenses.

The "most striking example" was that mortgage payments on Sean Quinn jnr's home were not paid, despite the fact the account from which those payments was to be made was in credit, she said. KBC bank had appointed a receiver over that property, she added.

They were aso unable to contemplate new business ventures or employment, to maintain ordinary banking facilities and were delayed in getting the full legal advice necessary, Ms Quinn said.

The family claim the appointment earlier this month of special liquidators to IBRC, formerly Anglo Irish Bank, means it cannot honour its undertaking to pay them damages should it lose its case against them over alleged stripping of some US$455m assets from the IPG.

Therefore, they claim, the bank is not entitled to various orders obtained so far in its case, including orders of July 2011 restraining them transferring IPG assets and orders of July 2012 appointing receivers over their personal accounts and assets.

When Martin Hayden SC, for the Quinns, moved the family's application today, Shane Murphy SC, for IBRC, said he needed an opportunity to take instructions from the special liquidators on the issues raised. Mr Justice Kelly said he will hear the application next Monday.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 01:35:51 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 01:07:02 PM
And it rumbles on.

(Irish times)
QuoteThe family of bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn has claimed the insolvency of Irish Bank Resolution Corporation means the courts must urgently lift orders freezing their accounts below €50 million each and preventing them transferring assets in their international property group. The bank's undertaking for damges on foot of which it got those orders is now "valueless", the family claim.

Alternatively, the family say the special liquidators of IBRC must lodge up to US$500 million dollars in court to meet any claim for damages should they win the case.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly said the matter was urgent and he would hear it next Monday. The price of an injunction is an undertaking for damages from the party seeking that injunction and it would be wrong to permit a "worthless" or "hollow" undertaking" from an insolvent entity, he said.

Aoife Quinn said in an affidavit it was clear from recent remarks of IBRC special liquidator Kieran Wallace any claim the Quinns may have on foot of the bank's undertakings for damages will rank as "an unsecured debt which Anglo will be unable to satisfy".

The freezing orders have caused considerable loss to her family and it is "no longer just, equitable or conscionable" that they remain in place, she said.

The orders had led to termination of standing orders and direct debits on the accounts of herself, her siblings and other family members which had led to non-payment of a range of expenses.

The "most striking example" was that mortgage payments on Sean Quinn jnr's home were not paid, despite the fact the account from which those payments was to be made was in credit, she said. KBC bank had appointed a receiver over that property, she added.

They were aso unable to contemplate new business ventures or employment, to maintain ordinary banking facilities and were delayed in getting the full legal advice necessary, Ms Quinn said.

The family claim the appointment earlier this month of special liquidators to IBRC, formerly Anglo Irish Bank, means it cannot honour its undertaking to pay them damages should it lose its case against them over alleged stripping of some US$455m assets from the IPG.

Therefore, they claim, the bank is not entitled to various orders obtained so far in its case, including orders of July 2011 restraining them transferring IPG assets and orders of July 2012 appointing receivers over their personal accounts and assets.

When Martin Hayden SC, for the Quinns, moved the family's application today, Shane Murphy SC, for IBRC, said he needed an opportunity to take instructions from the special liquidators on the issues raised. Mr Justice Kelly said he will hear the application next Monday.

Actually that looks so messy that it might lead to an agreement of some sort.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on February 26, 2013, 01:59:54 PM
It's been a total mess from Day 1.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 02:04:39 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on February 26, 2013, 01:59:54 PM
It's been a total mess from Day 1.

Yea but I am referring to the new legal mess.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 02:36:36 PM
So had the Quinns not moved assets, then the whole lot would have been over with Nama now and with no opportunity for them to pursue IBRC/ Anglo for damages.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 02:49:07 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 02:36:36 PM
So had the Quinns not moved assets, then the whole lot would have been over with Nama now and with no opportunity for them to pursue[s] IBRC/ Anglo[/s] The Taxpayers of the 26 Cos. for damages.

No matter what happens we lose as usual. >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 02:58:08 PM
Unfortunate that. But that's the decision that Messers Cowen and Co made.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:12:11 PM
I love the use of the word "unfortunate"  >:( to describe a situation where my pocket will be robbed by the rich and famous to pay the rich including the "poor Quinns".
Blaming Cowen and Company is a bit like blaming the Guards if there's an increase in robberies.
However one good thing is that those people in the 6 Cos who are so enthusiastically backing the Quinns will also be paying for this mess after re unification  ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on February 26, 2013, 04:19:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:12:11 PM
I love the use of the word "unfortunate"  >:( to describe a situation where my pocket will be robbed by the rich and famous to pay the rich including the "poor Quinns".
Blaming Cowen and Company is a bit like blaming the Guards if there's an increase in robberies.
However one good thing is that those people in the 6 Cos who are so enthusiastically backing the Quinns will also be paying for this mess after re unification  ;D

So how much is this taking out of your 'pocket' then Rossfan?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 04:19:20 PM
Don't worry I can think of other words if you'd prefer. You sound like your all for fair play and justice unless it's actually going to cost you. Then your principles aren't as strong are they.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:33:56 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on February 26, 2013, 04:19:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:12:11 PM
I love the use of the word "unfortunate"  >:( to describe a situation where my pocket will be robbed by the rich and famous to pay the rich including the "poor Quinns".
Blaming Cowen and Company is a bit like blaming the Guards if there's an increase in robberies.
However one good thing is that those people in the 6 Cos who are so enthusiastically backing the Quinns will also be paying for this mess after re unification  ;D

So how much is this taking out of your 'pocket' then Rossfan?

About €35 per week since 2009 and to continue till 2035 = €45,000 give or take an oul € here or there ( at 2013 prices). I presume th'oul pension will be reduced by then as well so ...... :-[
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Puckoon on February 26, 2013, 04:35:00 PM
For many people principals and morality are directly proportional to costs incurred.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:36:46 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 04:19:20 PM
Don't worry I can think of other words if you'd prefer. You sound like your all for fair play and justice unless it's actually going to cost you. Then your principles aren't as strong are they.
I'm not sure what principles you refer to?
Maybe "people should pay their debts" perhaps or
Rich gamblers should pay their debts instead of getting the poor non gamblers to pay them so the rich gamblers can continue on their well padded lifestyle.
I don't see how the likes of the Quinn's getting the taxpayers to pay their debts is " fair play and justice".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 04:45:10 PM
If the Quinns win their cases they wouldn't be asking you to pay their debts. Because it won't be their debt. It'll be Anglo's debt. So that's why I said take it up with Cowen. You don't seem to be following that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on February 26, 2013, 05:06:23 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:12:11 PM
I love the use of the word "unfortunate"  >:( to describe a situation where my pocket will be robbed by the rich and famous to pay the rich including the "poor Quinns".
Blaming Cowen and Company is a bit like blaming the Guards if there's an increase in robberies.
However one good thing is that those people in the 6 Cos who are so enthusiastically backing the Quinns will also be paying for this mess after re unification  ;D

The law of the Irish state can't be suspended to appease your pocket Rossfan. The Quinns got fucked over illegally to the point that now IRBC/the Irish government realise they stand to encounter a humiliating defeat before the courts and are looking to settle. Should Frank McBreaty be denied the compensation paid to him by you the taxpayer because it's "taking money out of your pocket"?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:07:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 04:45:10 PM
If the Quinns win their cases they wouldn't be asking you to pay their debts. Because it won't be their debt. It'll be Anglo's debt. So that's why I said take it up with Cowen. You don't seem to be following that.

If Sean Quinn hadn't laid the bet, there would be no debt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on February 26, 2013, 05:09:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:07:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 04:45:10 PM
If the Quinns win their cases they wouldn't be asking you to pay their debts. Because it won't be their debt. It'll be Anglo's debt. So that's why I said take it up with Cowen. You don't seem to be following that.

If Sean Quinn hadn't laid the bet, there would be no debt.

So no business should borrow from a bank? Or just Sean Quinn? I notice we don't have a 50+ page thread on the bets of Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 05:11:53 PM
If Anglo hadn't lied about their share value there'd be no debt.
If anglo hadn't over exposed themselves to the property market there'd be no debt.
If anglo hadn't loaned the money there'd be no debt.(To the tax payers)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:14:50 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 26, 2013, 05:09:57 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:07:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 04:45:10 PM
If the Quinns win their cases they wouldn't be asking you to pay their debts. Because it won't be their debt. It'll be Anglo's debt. So that's why I said take it up with Cowen. You don't seem to be following that.

If Sean Quinn hadn't laid the bet, there would be no debt.

So no business should borrow from a bank? Or just Sean Quinn? I notice we don't have a 50+ page thread on the bets of Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien.

I don't think you understand what he did.

He borrowed from Anglo to cover the bet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:16:18 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 05:11:53 PM
If Anglo hadn't lied about their share value there'd be no debt.
If anglo hadn't over exposed themselves to the property market there'd be no debt.
If anglo hadn't loaned the money there'd be no debt.(To the tax payers)

Poor Sean Quinn, laid a €3bn bet on a donkey. And you blame the donkey.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 05:18:17 PM
No I blame the corupt bookies.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:19:47 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 05:18:17 PM
No I blame the corupt bookies.

That would be a bank in Switzerland.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 05:22:12 PM
So you don't blame anglo for any of their involvement in the dealings?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:28:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 05:22:12 PM
So you don't blame anglo for any of their involvement in the dealings?

Of course I do. They should have done the sensible thing and let Sean Quinn be liquidated by the Swiss.

Instead they tried to bail him out, to save their own share price and landed the taxpayer in the mess thanks to the idiotic guarantee. All of them are to blame.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 05:31:14 PM
And maybe they shouldn't have fiddled their accounts either.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on February 26, 2013, 05:33:34 PM
I would be the first to admit that Quinn made mistakes and those mistakes could have eventually led to his financial demise but I can't believe the neck on some people who continue to ignore the malpractice engaged by the government/IRBC.

The government/IBRC are being trawled through the courts and with every passing day look more likely to lose on any of the counts, you've acknowledged as much yourself Muppet and suggested a deal could be in the offing.

Now after all that and the increasing likelihood the courts will find in favour of Quinn on some of the challenges how can you continue to ignore the role of the government/IBRC in this affair. Time after time on here and in other threads you have continued to solely lay the blame for the loss of taxpayer funds at the door of Quinn and Anglo, ignoring or minimizing the governments involvement.

Now given that you seem to accept that a deal is forthcoming, do you honestly believe that the government/IBRC shoulder none of the blame here?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:40:02 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 26, 2013, 05:33:34 PM
I would be the first to admit that Quinn made mistakes and those mistakes could have eventually led to his financial demise but I can't believe the neck on some people who continue to ignore the malpractice engaged by the government/IRBC.

The government/IBRC are being trawled through the courts and with every passing day look more likely to lose on any of the counts, you've acknowledged as much yourself Muppet and suggested a deal could be in the offing.

Now after all that and the increasing likelihood the courts will find in favour of Quinn on some of the challenges how can you continue to ignore the role of the government/IBRC in this affair. Time after time on here and in other threads you have continued to solely lay the blame for the loss of taxpayer funds at the door of Quinn and Anglo, ignoring or minimizing the governments involvement.

Now given that you seem to accept that a deal is forthcoming, do you honestly believe that the government/IBRC shoulder none of the blame here?

Woah. I never said that I thought the courts would find in favour of the Quinns.

The reason I think there may be a deal done is because of the liquidation of IBRC and the legal mess that will follow. I don't think the Quinns case is improving or likely to succeed. Their behaviour to the courts has been appalling and that is not really a good sign. I think the the Government might desperately want to avoid a legal holdup to the Promissory Note, which might happen if the Quinns get an injunction. Hence the Government might cut a deal.

The only way I see the Quinns winning is if they blame the Dad.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:45:18 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 05:31:14 PM
And maybe they shouldn't have fiddled their accounts either.

Why is it Quinn supporters can't understand this is not an either or situation?

Anglo is officially the worst business in Irish history and are possibly is worst bank in World history.

Now over to Sean Quinn. He, all on his own, by his own hand, of his own volition, without the knowledge of Anglo bet €3bn on them. Are we supposed to bail Quinn's idiotic bet out because Anglo was rotten?

Both Quinn and Anglo are disasters for the Irish economy. Despising one does not mean you have to support the other.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on February 26, 2013, 05:59:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 26, 2013, 02:04:39 PM
Quote from: sammymaguire on February 26, 2013, 01:59:54 PM
It's been a total mess from Day 1.

Yea but I am referring to the new legal mess.

I am referring to the political mess made by incompetent people in power
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:45:18 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 05:31:14 PM
And maybe they shouldn't have fiddled their accounts either.

Why is it Quinn supporters can't understand this is not an either or situation?

Anglo is officially the worst business in Irish history and are possibly is worst bank in World history.

Now over to Sean Quinn. He, all on his own, by his own hand, of his own volition, without the knowledge of Anglo bet €3bn on them. Are we supposed to bail Quinn's idiotic bet out because Anglo was rotten?

Both Quinn and Anglo are disasters for the Irish economy. Despising one does not mean you have to support the other.
Funny I would say the same about others who lay the blame solely at SQ which your previous post about "had Sean Quinn not made the bet " seemed to imply.
Indeed its equally possible to think SQ messed up with his CFDs but still appreciate other aspects of his career.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 06:51:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 26, 2013, 05:45:18 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 05:31:14 PM
And maybe they shouldn't have fiddled their accounts either.

Why is it Quinn supporters can't understand this is not an either or situation?

Anglo is officially the worst business in Irish history and are possibly is worst bank in World history.

Now over to Sean Quinn. He, all on his own, by his own hand, of his own volition, without the knowledge of Anglo bet €3bn on them. Are we supposed to bail Quinn's idiotic bet out because Anglo was rotten?

Both Quinn and Anglo are disasters for the Irish economy. Despising one does not mean you have to support the other.
Funny I would say the same about others who lay the blame solely at SQ which your previous post about "had Sean Quinn not made the bet " seemed to imply.
Indeed its equally possible to think SQ messed up with his CFDs but still appreciate other aspects of his career.

Messed up? Understatement of the millennium.

If we had a Government who prioritised the taxpayer, this is what should have happened:

We wouldn't have guaranteed Anglo and they would have gone to the wall.

We would also have let the Quinn Group go to the wall.

Quinn wouldn't be suing anyone as there would be no one to sue.




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 06:58:43 PM
Why would a profitable business go to the wall?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 07:08:00 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 06:58:43 PM
Why would a profitable business go to the wall?

Dunno, if someone took €288m out to finance a bad investment it mightn't help. Also losses totalling €1bn in 2009 & 2010 might make it difficult.

Then when you need the State to introduce a levy to bail you out, as Calre Daly put it:

http://www.claredaly.ie/insurance-amendment-bill-sept-27-2011/ (http://www.claredaly.ie/insurance-amendment-bill-sept-27-2011/)

One of the key issues is the extension of the insurance compensation fund to deal with losses of the Quinn family. A large percentage of insurance losses result from speculative gambling on the property market by the family and, in effect, the legislation provides for the transfer of those gambling debts on to the shoulders of hard pressed taxpayers and working people who need to insure cars, homes and so on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 07:15:09 PM
And what was the operating profits for those years and the previous couple?. Profits of up to 500m I believe.
There was never a chance of QG going bust. That's nonsense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on February 26, 2013, 07:20:41 PM
QuoteAnd what was the operating profits for those years and the previous couple?. Profits of up to 500m I believe.

Any insurance company makes big profits between accepting the premiums and paying out on the claims. The question is whether they were setting aside sufficient funds and there appears to be evidence that they were not.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 26, 2013, 07:25:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 26, 2013, 07:15:09 PM
And what was the operating profits for those years and the previous couple?. Profits of up to 500m I believe.
There was never a chance of QG going bust. That's nonsense.

Anglo made even bigger profits and look what happened to them. In all seriousness I don't really understand what happened Quinn Insurance but my instinct is to look at the inappropriate loan, the 'outrageous contempt' of court and draw my conclusions accordingly. But I honestly can't explain that one.

There also seems to be a regulator issue, as when we actually had a competent one the problems began for QI. Again I don't really know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 27, 2013, 08:36:45 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 26, 2013, 07:20:41 PM
QuoteAnd what was the operating profits for those years and the previous couple?. Profits of up to 500m I believe.

Any insurance company makes big profits between accepting the premiums and paying out on the claims. The question is whether they were setting aside sufficient funds and there appears to be evidence that they were not.

The call for the levy only came in when the company was split in two and the historic claims for the company were parcelled of to one side so as to not interfer with the profitable side of the business. QIL had over £1Billion in CASH reserves alone when it was taken over. So the company had the cover there for the claims (Granted not 150% as requested but they were far from the only insurer with this problem). Had the government not seperated of the historic claims as a way of making more money there wouldn't be a call for the levy. It staggers belief people can't see that. In fact we're still waiting 3 years later for the Regulator to show the legal data that he based his decision on when putting QIL into administration but he has been refusing. And this from someone who was quite happy to come forward to the press with his "Show me the money" speech.
The Quinns got a seperate report done by Danske bank that stated that the cross over in the guarnatees should not have affected the solvency levels of the insurance company. I don't expect you to turn around and just accept this findings but do you not think it's weird that when this suddenly appeared the regulator just shut up shop on speaking to the press about it, where as before that he was so vocal. He was asked on multible occasions to provide the legal findings that he based this decision on but has refused. Where as it would have been very easy to present the information and shut the Quinns up. I wonder why he couldn't?
The Quinns and QIL make some massive mistakes in their running of the business. The withdrawal of the funds the main one. They made mistakes on areas that they got into like indemity insurance in the UK as well. But they had already withdrawn from these areas before administration. Yes their profits would have taken a hit over a couple of years but there would have been no need for a call on the IF. The call on the IF was a stroke by the government. Maximise the chance of profits from QIL while passing on any of the costs to the policy payers in a tax that they could blame someone else for.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on February 27, 2013, 10:11:54 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:33:56 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on February 26, 2013, 04:19:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:12:11 PM
I love the use of the word "unfortunate"  >:( to describe a situation where my pocket will be robbed by the rich and famous to pay the rich including the "poor Quinns".
Blaming Cowen and Company is a bit like blaming the Guards if there's an increase in robberies.
However one good thing is that those people in the 6 Cos who are so enthusiastically backing the Quinns will also be paying for this mess after re unification  ;D

So how much is this taking out of your 'pocket' then Rossfan?

About €35 per week since 2009 and to continue till 2035 = €45,000 give or take an oul € here or there ( at 2013 prices). I presume th'oul pension will be reduced by then as well so ...... :-[

Where does the 35euros a week figure come from?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tommysmith on February 27, 2013, 10:55:31 AM
As i stated previous when this all blew up first i though Quinn was in the wrong, now i am not so sure there are a few people who had plenty to say at the start gone hiding in the long grass.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 27, 2013, 12:50:59 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on February 27, 2013, 10:11:54 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:33:56 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on February 26, 2013, 04:19:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:12:11 PM
I love the use of the word "unfortunate"  >:( to describe a situation where my pocket will be robbed by the rich and famous to pay the rich including the "poor Quinns".
Blaming Cowen and Company is a bit like blaming the Guards if there's an increase in robberies.
However one good thing is that those people in the 6 Cos who are so enthusiastically backing the Quinns will also be paying for this mess after re unification  ;D

So how much is this taking out of your 'pocket' then Rossfan?

About €35 per week since 2009 and to continue till 2035 = €45,000 give or take an oul € here or there ( at 2013 prices). I presume th'oul pension will be reduced by then as well so ...... :-[

Where does the 35euros a week figure come from?
Increased tax( through reduced credits) and  new Universal Social charge plus Public Service Pension Levy imposed.
I checked my last payslip of 2008 against my latest one.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 27, 2013, 12:57:09 PM
And those are all due to SQ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 27, 2013, 01:06:29 PM
Ahh so that's the whole banking collapse your talking about. I assumed from the the post of RF that he was paying 35 a week due to SQ. So that's not the case then.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 27, 2013, 01:08:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 27, 2013, 12:57:09 PM
And those are all due to SQ?

A large part of it is and then there's the Insurance Levies on car/house insurance due to Quinn "misadventure" which I haven't counted.
As for Private Health Insurance -- can't afford that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 27, 2013, 01:14:16 PM
It isn't a large part. In fact if the quinns win there cases it'll be zero % of it. Anglo will have taken control of more than was owed to them. But of course now that they've been liquidised there'll be no chance of the Quinns claiming for compensation for that. They'll join the que at the back the same as other unsecured creditors. 
As for the Levy. I've given my thoughts on that above. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 27, 2013, 01:50:00 PM
Sars you're loyalty to the Quinns  :-* is touching.
Wait till you're paying for them after re Unification, Wonder how loyal you'll be to the "poor mites" who need €370k per annum to survive ? ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 27, 2013, 02:02:47 PM
My loyality to the Quinns doesn't make anything I say any the less relevant.

You need every penny you can get when your being screwed through the courts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on February 27, 2013, 02:07:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 27, 2013, 12:50:59 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on February 27, 2013, 10:11:54 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:33:56 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on February 26, 2013, 04:19:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:12:11 PM
I love the use of the word "unfortunate"  >:( to describe a situation where my pocket will be robbed by the rich and famous to pay the rich including the "poor Quinns".
Blaming Cowen and Company is a bit like blaming the Guards if there's an increase in robberies.
However one good thing is that those people in the 6 Cos who are so enthusiastically backing the Quinns will also be paying for this mess after re unification  ;D

So how much is this taking out of your 'pocket' then Rossfan?

About €35 per week since 2009 and to continue till 2035 = €45,000 give or take an oul € here or there ( at 2013 prices). I presume th'oul pension will be reduced by then as well so ...... :-[

Where does the 35euros a week figure come from?
Increased tax( through reduced credits) and  new Universal Social charge plus Public Service Pension Levy imposed.
I checked my last payslip of 2008 against my latest one.

Mmm nonsense  just as I suspected.

Why not blame him for cancer?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 27, 2013, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 27, 2013, 02:02:47 PM


You need every penny you can get when your being screwed through the courts.

The Quinns are the ones screwing the courts. ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 27, 2013, 02:13:20 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on February 27, 2013, 02:07:30 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 27, 2013, 12:50:59 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on February 27, 2013, 10:11:54 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:33:56 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on February 26, 2013, 04:19:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 26, 2013, 04:12:11 PM
I love the use of the word "unfortunate"  >:( to describe a situation where my pocket will be robbed by the rich and famous to pay the rich including the "poor Quinns".Blaming Cowen and Company is a bit like blaming the Guards if there's an increase in robberies.
However one good thing is that those people in the 6 Cos who are so enthusiastically backing the Quinns will also be paying for this mess after re unification  ;D

So how much is this taking out of your 'pocket' then Rossfan?

About €35 per week since 2009 and to continue till 2035 = €45,000 give or take an oul € here or there ( at 2013 prices). I presume th'oul pension will be reduced by then as well so ...... :-[

Where does the 35euros a week figure come from?
Increased tax( through reduced credits) and  new Universal Social charge plus Public Service Pension Levy imposed.
I checked my last payslip of 2008 against my latest one.

Mmm nonsense  just as I suspected.



Read my post y'eejit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 27, 2013, 02:43:26 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 27, 2013, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 27, 2013, 02:02:47 PM


You need every penny you can get when your being screwed through the courts.

The Quinns are the ones screwing the courts. ;)

Sure the quinns can't even get to the courts. It's brave and handy being able to introduce laws whenever you want to avoid bits you don't like!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on February 27, 2013, 03:11:46 PM
Quinn made a few mistakes alright but it is evident that he and his team are much more switched on than any Irish government or court. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the coming months/years in the courts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 15, 2013, 02:44:54 PM
Good news for the Quinns!



A HIGH Court decision today means the courts have the power to allow existing actions against Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), including that by the family of bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn, to proceed.


Confusion had arisen as to whether the courts had jurisdiction to lift the "immediate stay" in the new IBRC Act halting all proceedings against the bank.  The Act, enacted last month, provides for no stay on proceedings by the bank against others.

About one third of existing cases before the Commercial Court are against IBRC and the stay has caused uncertainty whether any steps at all may be taken in relation to them with several judges raising the issue since the Act came into force.

In his decision today, Mr Justice Sean Ryan said it was "impossible to conceive" the Oireachtas had, via the stay in Section 6.2.a of the Act, terminated the Quinns' case "in an instant" and deprived them of the right to apply to court.

Any such interpretation would involve "extensive and substantial interference with Constitutional rights in modes that are discriminatory and unjustified and unnecessary in the circumstances".

There was an "undoubtedly puzzling" distinction between the "immediate stay" in Section 6.2.a  and the wording of Section 6.2.b, which states "..no further actions or proceedings can be issued against IBRC without the consent of the court", he noted.

Having analysed the provision, he concluded it was "manifest" that "a fair, proper and constitutional interpretation", and a similar approach based on common law, lead to the "inevitable conclusion" the stay in the Quinn case was intended to be subject to being lifted on application to the court.

To say every "existing" proceeding, but not any future action against the bank, whatever its circumstances or consequences was forever prevented from proceeding and without access to the court would be "an astonishing consequence" of the "mere eleven words" of 6.2.a, he said.

The decision means the action by Mrs Patricia Quinn and her children can proceed once the criminal proceedings against former Anglo Irish Bank chairman Sean Fitzpatrick and two senior Anglo executives are concluded. The Quinns allege they have no liability for some €2.34bn loans advanced by Anglo to Quinn companies on grounds those loans were unlawfully made to prop up the bank's share price.

Pre-trial applications can proceed and the Quinns are expected to apply shortly for permission to join the Department of Finance and Central Bank, as regulator, as co-defendants with IBRC to their case.


When lawyers for the Quinns applied last month for the stay to be lifted, the issue whether the court could do so was referred to Mr Justice Ryan for clarification. Lawyers for the Quinns and for IBRC both argued the court could lift the stay and it was never intended to be permanent.

In his decision today, the judge noted the IBRC Act was passed "with great urgency over the course of one night", with the effect of putting IBRC into liquidation. It empowered the Minister for Finance to make a special liquidation order and Section 6 dealt with some of the consequences of that procedure.

The distinction between Section 6.2.a and Section 6.2.b was "undoubtedly puzzling". The words in Section 6.2.a were not unclear but their consequence was unspecified.

There was no specific mention of the court's function in 6.2.a and, if that omission was considered to be a deliberate withholding of the right to apply to have the stay lifted, it would have serious repercussions for the Quinns' case.

It was possible the omission was "a result of haste and urgency" but he could not lightly infer that, he added.

He found the literal wording of Section 6.2.a - "there shall be an immediate stay on all proceedings against IBRC"  - meant it was uncertain whether the stay was temporary or permanent.

However, he also found, there was nothing in that section to indicate the court's jurisdiction was excluded.  If it was intended the stay was to be permanent,  that would come "with heavy baggage", including interference with property rights, access to the courts, separation of powers, invidious discrimination and other issues, he said.

In his view,  "no sensible draftsman or legislator" would simply provide for such deprivation of rights without providing any justifying context or circumstances or without establishing a basis of distinction between existing and future litigants.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on March 26, 2013, 11:18:21 AM
I see one of the Quinns apparently misbehaving on a train recently  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on March 26, 2013, 12:13:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 26, 2013, 11:18:21 AM
I see one of the Quinns apparently misbehaving on a train recently  ;)

Oh pray do tell us more!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 26, 2013, 01:49:54 PM
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sean-quinn-jnr-arrested-after-locking-himself-in-train-toilet-29153306.html (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sean-quinn-jnr-arrested-after-locking-himself-in-train-toilet-29153306.html)

They ordered him off in Offaly. I'd have locked myself in the toilet too.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on April 09, 2013, 09:50:16 PM
http://www.shannonside.ie/news/arson-attack-unanimously-condemned/

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 12, 2013, 11:36:10 AM
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/quinn-children-seek-end-to-draconian-injunction-freezing-their-assets-29189910.html

QuoteDearbhail McDonald Legal Editor– 11 April 2013

THE children of Sean Quinn, the former billionaire, want a "draconian" injunction order freezing their bank accounts and preventing them controlling their overseas assets to be lifted.

They told the High Court that Finance Minister Michael Noonan should "fortify" an undertaking for damages provided by the former Anglo Irish Bank - to compensate them if they win their main case - if he "believes" in the legal action against the Quinns taken by the now liquidated bank.

The Quinn family claim that a €5m offer by the Special Liquidator of the IBRC, formerly the Anglo Irish Bank - to cover any damages that may be awarded in the future in relation to a complex series of lawsuits between the two sides - is "worthless".

This morning, Martin Hayden SC, for the Quinns, said that the IBRC is insolvent and therefore any offer of damages by its Special Liquidator Kieran Wallace of KPMG are "worthless".

Mr Hayden also said that a cap or limit could not be placed on the damages sought by the Quinn family who say they have "suffered" as a result of the Quinn Group being placed into receivership in April 2011 by the former Anglo Irish Bank.

The Quinns have claimed that if they win their main case against the IBRC, there was no valid security over the main International Property Group (IPG) assets, valued in excess of €500m, which the family say were long-term investments never intended to be sold on a fire-sale basis.

The IBRC Act, providing for the liquidation of IBRC - formerly Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide - was enacted in February after a late-night sitting of the Oireachtas.

When it sought injunctions against members of the Quinn family two years ago, the IBRC was required to give undertakings to pay them any damages should they successfully defend the bank's claims.

The injunctions were sought against all five Quinn adult children and three of their spouses - Niall McPartland, Stephen Kelly and Karen Woods - as well as Peter Darragh Quinn, a nephew of Sean Quinn.

The bank claimed that members of the Quinn family had engaged in a scheme to strip assets from the family's international property group and place them beyond the bank's reach.

The bank was also required to give an undertaking for damages when it sought and secured another set of orders freezing the accounts of the Quinn defendants and appointing a receiver over their assets.

"This case is new country, it is untravelled road," said Mr Hayden in reference to the undertaking for damages.


"This is not a normal liquidation because under the 2013 Act the liquidator cannot be sued," said Mr Hayden adding that the Minister for Finance has "ultimate control" over the IBRC.

Mr Hayden said it was open to Finance Minister Michael Noonan to fortify the undertaking if he "believes" in the case brought by Anglo.

Members of the Quinn family want up to US$500 million to be lodged in court to meet any such award.

Unless this sum is lodged, they say that, given the liquidation of IBRC, the court should lift injunctions granted against them as well as the freezing orders on their accounts.

Sean Quinn Jnr, his sister Aoife Quinn and brother in law Niall McPartland are present for this morning's hearing before High Court judge Mr Justice Michael Peart.

The hearing, expected to last for two days, continues.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 01, 2013, 09:19:26 AM

http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/Home/News/COMMENT%3A+Quinns+raise+stakes+in+Anglo+case/id/19410615-5218-517f-8614-b820a7032755

Quote
It has not gone away, you know.

The bankrupt tycoon is out of prison, while the once simmering unrest on the streets of Cavan and Monaghan appears to have calmed and subsided.
His tormentor, meanwhile, has been executed by the state as part of a grand financial manoeuvre.
Yet, the mammoth dispute between Sean Quinn and his family and the former Anglo Irish Bank rages still.
Yesterday, the two sides were back in court.
The Quinn family told the High Court they are formally seeking to add the Central Bank and the Department of Finance to their €2.4 billion claim against the former Anglo.
The move is not unexpected, but it does raise the stakes.
As soon as the government opted to liquidate Anglo's successor, the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), the Quinn family must have realised that their case against the bank was in tatters.
After all, even if they won the case and proved that the loans they had received from Anglo were illegal, they were still stuck in no man's land.
They were suing a bank that was bust and in liquidation. Put bluntly, the bank would have no money and, it appears, no legal obligation, to pay them any damages.
In February, two weeks after the bank was liquidated, I conducted a lengthy interview with the two special liquidators, Kieran Wallace and Eamonn Richardson of KPMG.
I asked them about the impact of the liquidation on the Quinn litigation, suggesting that the family would struggle to enforce any potential damages award.
Wallace responded by saying: "I am not going to talk about their case specifically. But in general, there is a point there.
"A lot of historical claims against the bank will rank as unsecured creditors. They fall behind preferential and secured creditors. Under current projections, there will not be any dividend for unsecured creditors."
Given all this, it makes sense that the family would seek to join the Central Bank and the Department of Finance.
After all, if they win, they need to make sure that someone is in a position to sign and cheque and pay their award.
First though, the family has to convince the High Court that the Central Bank and the department should actually be joined as defendants to the case. The family have 250 hours of transcripts of phone conversation between Anglo and the Department of Finance and the Central Bbank. This will form a key part of their application.
The matter will be heard in June.
It is easy to forget the significance of the case. Arguing that €2.4 billion Anglo lent the money for the "illegal purpose" of propping up the bank's share price, the Quinns are claiming damages for negligence and breach of duty by Anglo and damages for "intentional and/or negligent infliction of economic damage".
They also want a declaration that personal guarantees which they gave over almost €500 million in loans from Anglo to six companies set up in Cyprus in their names are similarly invalid.
This is the biggest commercial court case in the history of the Irish state, by a considerable distance.
The move to add the Department of Finance and the Central Bank to the case thickens the plot.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 07, 2013, 02:01:53 PM
The story below belittles the real story recently - i.e that the Quinn faimly have now got proof that Anglo were propping themselves up AND that the government and Dept of Finance in particular knew they were at it.


Somokescreen after somkescreen. Matthew Elderfield might well be gone but Alistair Campbell is still on the books.









SEAN Quinn Jnr has claimed he was subjected to a campaign of victimisation and harassment to oust him from the insurance company founded by his former billionaire father.




He is taking a case before an Employment Appeals Tribunal claiming he was unfairly selected for redundancy following the appointment by the High Court of administrators to Quinn Insurance Limited.

He is understood to have been the only compulsory redundancy out of more than 900 at the insurance firm.

Giving evidence at the opening of the case in Dublin this morning, joint administrator of Quinn Insurance Michael McAteer said it was clear following his appointment on March 30, 2010, that the business needed to be "resized" and around 900 redundancies were required.

Mr Quinn, of Farmleigh Woods, Castleknock, Dublin, was head of UK commerical business on a basic annual salary of €75,000, excluding his bonus.

Mr McAteer, a partner in accountancy firm Grant Thornton, said the buyers of Quinn Insurance, Liberty Mutual, made it clear they did not want to buy the UK insurance book and, as such, Mr Quinn Jnr's position was redundant.



He told how at a "frank" meeting with Mr Quinn Jnr, he was offered a number of alternative positions which were rejected by Mr Quinn Jnr.

Mr Quinn Jnr was dismissed from his job on August 1, 2011.

Opening the hearing, tribunal chairman Tom Ryan said he will be considering whether Mr Quinn Jnr was dismissed because his position was made redundant, or whether it was a case of "dismissal dressed up under the cloak of redundancy."

He said the case will be heard on the basis of its merits, irrespective of the parties involved.

The hearing was adjourned to July at which point Mr Quinn Jnr is expected to give his evidence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 07, 2013, 03:59:48 PM
I see Mr Mcateer had to retract part of his statement yesterday.

This is the same impartial administrator who was taped saying

"The Quinns are gone, They will never have an involvement whatsoever in this insurance company ever, ever again. . .

"We can't put that in an email. I can't put it in writing but that's what's going on."

And he said this all long before any decision was made on the sale of Quinn Insurance and while the Quinn proposal was still in the process. 

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 07, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
The Quinns appear to be making small but significant inroads into their case.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on May 07, 2013, 04:57:26 PM
Quote from: orangeman on May 07, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
The Quinns appear to be making small but significant inroads into their case.

No they don't.

They are simply trying to sue someone with money, i.e. the taxpayer.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on May 07, 2013, 05:35:04 PM
Quote from: orangeman on May 07, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
The Quinns appear to be making small but significant inroads into their case.

Hopefully. They have been screwed big time but bit by bit the truth is coming out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on May 07, 2013, 08:37:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2013, 04:57:26 PM
Quote from: orangeman on May 07, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
The Quinns appear to be making small but significant inroads into their case.

No they don't.

They are simply trying to sue someone with money, i.e. the taxpayer.

Jesus Muppet for someone who is usually reasonable and open-minded that is a unbelievable piece of denial.

The Shinners would be proud of it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on May 07, 2013, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 07, 2013, 08:37:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2013, 04:57:26 PM
Quote from: orangeman on May 07, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
The Quinns appear to be making small but significant inroads into their case.

No they don't.

They are simply trying to sue someone with money, i.e. the taxpayer.

Jesus Muppet for someone who is usually reasonable and open-minded that is a unbelievable piece of denial.

The Shinners would be proud of it.

Ah come on. An unfair dismissal tribunal into a £75,000 a year job isn't going to do much to a €2.4bn court case is it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on May 07, 2013, 09:04:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2013, 04:57:26 PM
Quote from: orangeman on May 07, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
The Quinns appear to be making small but significant inroads into their case.

No they don't.

They are simply trying to sue someone with money, i.e. the taxpayer.
And their Judgeships just press the compo button when the Taxpayer ( us poor cnuts) is being sued.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on May 07, 2013, 09:11:11 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2013, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 07, 2013, 08:37:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2013, 04:57:26 PM
Quote from: orangeman on May 07, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
The Quinns appear to be making small but significant inroads into their case.

No they don't.

They are simply trying to sue someone with money, i.e. the taxpayer.

Jesus Muppet for someone who is usually reasonable and open-minded that is a unbelievable piece of denial.

The Shinners would be proud of it.

Ah come on. An unfair dismissal tribunal into a £75,000 a year job isn't going to do much to a €2.4bn court case is it?

Maybe not but that wasn't the point you made first and you haven't addressed the other recent aspects of the case.

Your reaction was not to identify faults with the suggestions/opinions presented by others but to go "NO!! YOU'RE WRONG" and so play the man and not the ball. The action of someone who is unable to counter the suggestions or is unable to fathom them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on May 07, 2013, 09:30:11 PM
On the contrary. I have quoted word for word Simon Carswell earlier on this thread. This forum already made it into the national arena on this issue and I choose my words carefully on this one.

I have seen nothing new recently that I didn't already know and that isn't already in the public arena so I see no turning point. But I might be wrong of course.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 07, 2013, 10:43:43 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2013, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: trileacman on May 07, 2013, 08:37:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2013, 04:57:26 PM
Quote from: orangeman on May 07, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
The Quinns appear to be making small but significant inroads into their case.

No they don't.

They are simply trying to sue someone with money, i.e. the taxpayer.

Jesus Muppet for someone who is usually reasonable and open-minded that is a unbelievable piece of denial.

The Shinners would be proud of it.

Ah come on. An unfair dismissal tribunal into a £75,000 a year job isn't going to do much to a €2.4bn court case is it?

The unfair dismissal is completely separate from the other on-going dispute over the share support (Althought it's given an insight on the so called impartial administrators)
But the bigger news in the last week, and more relevant to the Irish taxpayers is the joining of the Department of Finance. I see the Business post lead with the news that the D.O.F knew about the share support from at least 2009.  The Government's attempt at killing of the cases with their crazy midnight passing of the Anglo legitisation and then liquidation shows how keen they were to bury this and stop the cases running to court. I would imagine most people would be glad to hear the full story coming out now, especially if the government were involved.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on May 08, 2013, 05:01:57 AM
SS I would love to hear the full story presented truthfully.

Remember this: http://thestory.ie/2011/01/13/cowens-golf-trip/ (http://thestory.ie/2011/01/13/cowens-golf-trip/) and this: http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0109/296256-anglo/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0109/296256-anglo/)

Talk of Anglo's problems being known at a high level is not new.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 08, 2013, 08:35:58 AM
True, but if they are joined to the Case in relation to the Share support, in the words of Judge Ryan, "it Changes the whole landscape of the claim". When they decided to liquidise IBRC they were hoping that would mean the Quinns would not be able to continue with their claim. So if the DOF is joined I'm sure the Quinns will see that as progress. And if for no other reason, it should mean the full story coming out in the courts rather than conveniently placed leaks to the press.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 08, 2013, 03:18:52 PM
Am I right in saying that the courts have told the Quinns that their case cannot be heard until after all the Anglo executives that have been charged are dealt with ?


This could be years surely ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 08, 2013, 03:26:49 PM
Yeah the Quinns case has been postponed due to overlaps with the criminal prosecutions against Anglo staff. But they have the start of next year pencilled in. Whether that comes about or not is another matter.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 08, 2013, 03:51:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 08, 2013, 03:26:49 PM
Yeah the Quinns case has been postponed due to overlaps with the criminal prosecutions against Anglo staff. But they have the start of next year pencilled in. Whether that comes about or not is another matter.

It'll be years before they get all this sorted.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 12, 2013, 08:42:50 PM
Handy that the auld regulator has headed of into the sunset already so now he'll never have to answer to the reasons why he put QIL into administration.

He'd have an awful lot to answer for if he would face up to the questions that had been asked of him over the last two years but he was happy to run from. And unfortunately the politicians were happy enough not to rock the boat even when it was obvious that he was avoiding dialogue over his decision. 


Quote
PWC Backs Quinns Claims

A series of reports sent by PWC – the former auditor of Quinn Insurance Limited (QIL) – to the Financial Regulator strongly disputes whether the State was right to place the insurance group into administration.

The Financial Regulator made the decision to take control of QIL from the family of former billionaire Sean Quinn based on its belief the insurance company was insolvent.

This was, it said, because of the existence of intercompany guarantees relating to assets included in the insurance group's reserves, worth €448m for the financial years 2005-2008.

Copies of the PWC reports, however, submitted to the Financial Regulator in 2010 state that the accountants believe its audit opinions on the insurance group's accounts were "appropriate".

PWC also claims it had "no reason to believe that the existence of cross-company guarantees of any type would have any financial impact".

PWC states that it "does not agree" with the Financial Regulator's assessment that the guaranteed assets should have been excluded from QIL's reserves.

The PWC reports also show that the disputed assets were only removed from QIL's reserves "on the instruction of the Financial Regulator."

Removing the cross-guaranteed assets from the insurance company's reserves overnight made QIL insolvent, according to the Quinn family's advisers, Moore Stephens.

The London accountancy firm has produced a report for the family which backs PWC and concludes the Financial Regulator was wrong to conclude QIL was insolvent.

The Quinn family has bitterly disputed the Regulator's decision, which they believe made it impossible for them to ever repay their debts to Anglo Irish Bank.

The Financial Regulator maintains that it was correct to place the insurance business into administration. In an affidavit at the time of the administration, the Regulator described the emergence of the cross-guarantees as a "matter of gravest concern".

Grant Thornton, the insurance's firm's administrators, meanwhile, has lodged court papers against PWC in preparation for taking a legal action against it alleging misconduct.

The Quinn family has requested a copy of the professional or legal advice underpinning the Financial Regulator's decision to place the biggest cash cow of their empire into administration but have been unable to obtain it to date.

Irish Independent
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on May 12, 2013, 08:49:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 12, 2013, 08:42:50 PM



Quote
PWC Backs Quinns Claims

A series of reports sent by PWC – the former auditor of Quinn Insurance Limited (QIL) – to the Financial Regulator strongly disputes whether the State was right to place the insurance group into administration.

The Financial Regulator made the decision to take control of QIL from the family of former billionaire Sean Quinn based on its belief the insurance company was insolvent.

Copies of the PWC reports, however, submitted to the Financial Regulator in 2010 state that the accountants believe its audit opinions on the insurance group's accounts were "appropriate".


They would say that wouldn't they . ::) ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on May 12, 2013, 08:51:27 PM
QuoteGrant Thornton, the insurance's firm's administrators, meanwhile, has lodged court papers against PWC in preparation for taking a legal action against it alleging misconduct.

Interesting.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 12, 2013, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 12, 2013, 08:49:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 12, 2013, 08:42:50 PM



Quote
PWC Backs Quinns Claims

A series of reports sent by PWC – the former auditor of Quinn Insurance Limited (QIL) – to the Financial Regulator strongly disputes whether the State was right to place the insurance group into administration.

The Financial Regulator made the decision to take control of QIL from the family of former billionaire Sean Quinn based on its belief the insurance company was insolvent.

Copies of the PWC reports, however, submitted to the Financial Regulator in 2010 state that the accountants believe its audit opinions on the insurance group's accounts were "appropriate".


They would say that wouldn't they . ::) ::)

Well at least they are saying something. Its more than the regulator was prepared to do.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on May 12, 2013, 09:42:12 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 12, 2013, 09:11:21 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 12, 2013, 08:49:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 12, 2013, 08:42:50 PM



Quote
PWC Backs Quinns Claims

A series of reports sent by PWC – the former auditor of Quinn Insurance Limited (QIL) – to the Financial Regulator strongly disputes whether the State was right to place the insurance group into administration.

The Financial Regulator made the decision to take control of QIL from the family of former billionaire Sean Quinn based on its belief the insurance company was insolvent.

Copies of the PWC reports, however, submitted to the Financial Regulator in 2010 state that the accountants believe its audit opinions on the insurance group's accounts were "appropriate".


They would say that wouldn't they . ::) ::)

Well at least they are saying something. Its more than the regulator was prepared to do.

All they are saying is "what we did was right in our opinion".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 12, 2013, 10:01:49 PM
No they've put out a report stating why they were right. This is exactly what was asked of the regulator, who dispite being so vocal previously decided to close up shop and either couldn't or wouldn't provide the legal refererence for why the decision was made to place QIL into administration.
Do you find it acceptable for the regulator to make a decision like this and when challaged that he was incorrect,is unwilling to justify his decision or even show  some evi
dence?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on May 12, 2013, 11:29:53 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on May 12, 2013, 10:01:49 PM
No they've put out a report stating why they were right. This is exactly what was asked of the regulator, who dispite being so vocal previously decided to close up shop and either couldn't or wouldn't provide the legal refererence for why the decision was made to place QIL into administration.
Do you find it acceptable for the regulator to make a decision like this and when challaged that he was incorrect,is unwilling to justify his decision or even show  some evi
dence?

SS I know this is frustrating, and I am on the fence in this area as I don't know much about it, but in my experience Regulators/Authorities/Departments have all sorts of legal privilege. If the Regulator was out of order, or blundered atrociously, I want his office to be held fully accountable and I would not be happy to see any type of legal privilege used as a convenient smokescreen.

But I also feel the same way about SQ and his CFD bet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 13, 2013, 08:31:09 AM
That's fair enough Muppet. And that's why I'd be glad to see Grant Thorton take a legal case against PWC. Because at least then we would see whether the regulator made a monumental c0ck up or not, because if he did, it would seem that no one else has got the hunger to investigate.
Unfortunately if he did make this mistake there is no recourse for going after him despite the massive cost to the state other than perhaps making sure it all comes out in the media.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 13, 2013, 10:49:03 AM
Liberty Insurance wants 100 per cent control over the former Quinn Insurance Group, almost half of which is held by the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), formerly Anglo Irish Bank.

Its chief executive in Ireland Patrick O'Brien, has told The Irish Times its Boston parent would like to acquire the 49 per cent shareholding in the business held by IBRC "sooner rather than later".

Mr O'Brien declined to comment on how much IBRC's stake would be worth.

However, he revealed the liquidation of IBRC took Liberty by "surprise".


Liberty has been heavily promoting its brand in Ireland with a €1 million annual sponsorship of RTÉ's Late Late Show . This, however, is coming to an end and the insurer has signed a five-year deal with the GAA to sponsor the All-Ireland hurling and camogie championships.

The Government put IBRC into liquidation in February and the special liquidators at KPMG are to value its assets and either sell them by August or transfer them to the National Asset Management Agency (Nama), which will dispose of them in time.

In November 2011, Liberty provided €102 million for a 51 per cent stake in the former Quinn insurance business. IBRC took the balance as part of a €200 million recapitalisation.



"From a State perspective, I'm sure it was the right thing to do but from our perspective it was a little frustrating. We'd built up a good relationship with IBRC," he said.



Given his role as head of the Irish insurer, Mr O'Brien is not directly involved in discussions with KPMG on the IBRC stake, which are being handled from Boston.

Mr O'Brien said it was "business as usual" at the Irish insurer but the uncertainty over IBRC was not helpful. "We're a little unsure where the other shareholding will end up and we wouldn't be keen to be in Nama," he said.

IBRC provided €98 million as part of the recapitalisation of the former insurer, which had been placed into administration by the Central Bank. In theory, this was the value placed on its 49 per cent stake in the business.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 14, 2013, 01:45:16 PM
Peter Darragh Quinn, a nephew of bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn, has been ordered to pay $188m dollars damages to Irish Bank Resolution Corporation over his "pivotal" role in stripping assets from the Quinn family's international property group.

Three Russian companies were also ordered to pay damages of €252m, $239m and $201m over their involvement in the scheme to place assets beyond the reach of the bank.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly assessed damages in those amounts at the Commercial Court today following the entry of judgment last February against Mr Quinn after he failed to enter a defence to the bank's claim.

The judge noted IBRC had limited its claim to $188m for now against Mr Quinn but was reserving its position in relation to other possibly quantifiable losses. He was satisfied the bank was entitled to judgment in that sum over Mr Quinn's wrongful conduct.

He also continued an order restraining Mr Quinn reducing his assets below €50m.

IBRC special liquidator Kieran Wallace had said the $188m sum reflected the lost value of the Kutuzoff Tower in Moscow, owned by a Russian company of which Mr Quinn was the general director. Mr Wallace said he was concerned the actions of Mr Quinn, the companies and others meant the bank would be unable to recover various assets in the IPG.

Mr Quinn was not in court and has remained at his home in Lisbellaw, Co Fermanagh, across the border in Northern Ireland, since the High Court made findings of contempt against him, his cousin Sean Quinn Jr and uncle Sean Quinn Sr in June 2012. A warrant for his arrest to serve a three-month sentence for contempt remains unexecuted.

While Mr Quinn had not entered a defence to the bank's application for judgment against him, he wrote to the Commercial Court last month, and again last weekend, asking it to defer the assessment of damages pending the outcome of his appeal to the European Court of Human Rights against the contempt finding.

Alternatively, he asked that he be allowed adopt the defences entered by other members of the Quinn family to the bank's claim. The bank knew he was not a "mark" for damages and would not be prejudiced by an adjournment, he added.

Shane Murphy SC, for IBRC, opposed the adjournment application on grounds including Mr Quinn had taken no steps to advance his Supreme Court appeal against the contempt finding. The bank also had no details of the ECHR appeal, he added.

Mr Quinn had himself decided not to enter a defence to this case or to attend court, counsel also argued.

Mr Justice Kelly, refusing the adjournment application, said Mr Quinn remained in flagrant contempt of court and there was no merit to his application.

The judge then heard the bank's application for assessment of damages against Mr Quinn and a number of companies. He granted $188m damages against Mr Quinn and damages in various sums against three Russian companies over their involvement in the asset stripping scheme.

IBRC in 2011 initiated its proceedings against several companies and various Quinn family members, including Peter Darragh Quinn, alleging stripping of assets from the IPG.

Earlier today, Miss Justice Elizabeth Dunne further adjourned to June 11th a hearing related to efforts by Sean Quinn Jnr to purge his contempt of court orders. The judge heard Mr Quinn, who served a three month prison term for contempt, is offering a payment of €75,000.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on May 14, 2013, 01:51:50 PM
QuotePeter Darragh Quinn, a nephew of bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn, has been ordered to pay $188m dollars damages

So he owes about €70 each to every taxpayer in the 26 counties.
If he sends me an All Ireland ticket, we'll call it quits.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on May 15, 2013, 05:40:52 PM
The pro Quinn bucks have gone very silent I notice  :-X
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on May 15, 2013, 07:38:24 PM
QuoteThe pro Quinn bucks have gone very silent I notice 

Maybe there are organising a collection?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 15, 2013, 09:32:20 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 15, 2013, 05:40:52 PM
The pro Quinn bucks have gone very silent I notice  :-X

Not really. This had been coming since they ruled against then for contempt. Once they had ruled that there was always going to be a claim for damages. Same way the Quinns are taking a claim for damages against the D.O.F and IBRC.
Its just the State's claim hasn't been held up by court proceedings against Ex Anglo staff.
But i,'d watch this space over the next week or two!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on May 15, 2013, 09:48:16 PM
one further success for the powerguilty.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 03, 2013, 10:53:45 AM
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/quinns-large-windfarm-in-north-is-put-up-for-sale-29312084.html

John Mulligan– 01 June 2013

Northern Ireland's largest windfarm – previously owned by Quinn Insurance – has been put up for sale by administrator Grant Thornton.




It's likely that it could fetch somewhere in the region of £80m to £100m (€93m to €116m).

The 54-megawatt windfarm at Slieve Rushen in Derrylin, Co Fermanagh, is being sold more than a year after the administrators were put in charge of the operation.

The windfarm was initially constructed in 1994, making it one of the first ever such operations on the island.

In 2008, it was upgraded using 18 new Vestas wind turbines. The revamp boosted its output capability from 9MW to 54MW.

Financial adviser Investec is handling the sale of the operation and has been circulating documentation to potential buyers.

Will Ainger, the co-editor of industry publication 'Sparkspread', said the Slieve Rushen is generating annual revenue of £17m (€19.9m) and earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation of £15m (€17.5m), according to the sale document.

He added that the windfarm sells its output to Ireland's single electricity market, and receives payments through Northern Ireland renewable obligation certificates and levy exemption certificates.

It also has an offer of a 14-year contract to supply power output to an electricity company which would then be sold on to customers.

The sale of the windfarm comes after a number of other recent deals in the sector.

In April, two windfarm projects in Tipperary and Cork were sold by Ireland-based but US-owned Element Power to Blackrock NTR Renewable Fund – a joint venture between US fund manager Blackrock and Irish utility firm NTR.

In 2011, US firm Liberty acquired a 51pc stake in Quinn Insurance, paying €102m. IBRC, formerly Anglo Irish Bank, took control of the remainder as part of a €200m recapitalisation of the insurance arm.

Liberty has recently said that it would like to gain full control of the former Quinn Insurance business after IBRC was put into liquidation in February by the Government.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 05, 2013, 04:42:25 PM
What are they afraid of ?



A RENEWED bid has been made to prevent members of bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn's family litigating claims that the former Anglo Irish Bank unlawfully "shovelled" €2.34bn loans into Quinn companies.




The special liquidators of Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), formerly Anglo, want the Supreme Court to overturn a High Court decision permitting Patricia Quinn and her five children to litigate claims Anglo advanced the loans for the unlawful purpose of propping up its share price.



They claim Anglo illegally made loans from September 2007 to fund margin calls on contract for difference (CFDs) positions - which requires a seller to pay to a buyer the difference between the current value of an asset and its value at contract time.



The CFDs were built up by Sean Quinn senior in Anglo from 2005 through a Madeira-registered company, Bazzely, owned by the Quinn children.



The High Court also ruled the Quinns may litigate additional claims the loans breached the Market Abuse Regulations.



IBRC had argued the Quinns should not be allowed make those claims in their action denying liability for the €2.34bn loans.  But Mr Justice Peter Charleton, in February 2012, said it would be contrary to public policy to shut out the Quinns from responding to the "flagrant illegality" alleged against Anglo and Sean Quinn.



He ruled the family are entitled to advance claims they can avoid liability for loans if they prove those loans were made for "wholesale" market manipulation in breach of Irish and European law.



He added there may be a portion of "legitimate debt" involved, a reference to the bank's claim that €500m loans are unrelated to the allegedly unlawful loans.  That could result in a proper apportionment of legitimate and illegitimate debt at the end of this case if the Quinns proved their claims, he noted.




He rejected the bank's claims the EC 2003 Market Abuse Directive and other laws "ring-fenced" matters to the extent the courts cannot prevent enforcement of an illegal contract.



The illegality defence rests ultimately on principles of public policy that courts will not assist a plaintiff guilty of illegal or grossly immoral conduct of which the courts should take notice, he said.



The bank had argued, if the family proved the loans were issued in breach of Market Abuse Regulations 2005 and the ban in Section 60 of the Companies Act on a company providing financial assistance to buy its own shares, the loans must stand with the family's only remedy being statutory penalties including a maximum €10m fine and/or 10 year jail term.



Allowing a share transaction to be unwound would "cause chaos" in the marketplace, it argued.



Today, the IBRC special liquidators argued it is entitled to have its appeal against the High Court's ruling heard as a preliminary issue in advance of the full hearing of the family's action. The Quinns contend the Supreme Court should not hear any such appeal until the main action is heard and determined.



At the request of the Director of Public Prosecutions, the main action has been deferred pending the hearing of criminal proceedings against former Anglo Chairman Sean Fitzpatrick and other former senior executives of the bank.



Mr Justice Peter Kelly previously directed there should be a hearing before the Supreme Court on the discrete issue concering whether the bank is entitled to have its appeal determined before the full action.



A three judge Supreme Court yesterday heard arguments on that issue and said it would deliver its ruling at a later date.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on June 05, 2013, 05:07:59 PM
QuoteThe CFDs were built up by Sean Quinn senior in Anglo from 2005 through a Madeira-registered company, Bazzely, owned by the Quinn children.

I never knew that.

I think the best solution would be if the courts found all of the relevant transactions illegal and locked all of the involved parties up for at least 10 years for deliberate manipulation of the markets.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 05, 2013, 05:40:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 05, 2013, 05:07:59 PM
QuoteThe CFDs were built up by Sean Quinn senior in Anglo from 2005 through a Madeira-registered company, Bazzely, owned by the Quinn children.

I never knew that.

I think the best solution would be if the courts found all of the relevant transactions illegal and locked all of the involved parties up for at least 10 years for deliberate manipulation of the markets.
[/b]

And give Quinns back their property ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on June 05, 2013, 05:44:21 PM
Quote from: orangeman on June 05, 2013, 05:40:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 05, 2013, 05:07:59 PM
QuoteThe CFDs were built up by Sean Quinn senior in Anglo from 2005 through a Madeira-registered company, Bazzely, owned by the Quinn children.

I never knew that.

I think the best solution would be if the courts found all of the relevant transactions illegal and locked all of the involved parties up for at least 10 years for deliberate manipulation of the markets.
[/b]

And give Quinns back their property ?

Nope. SQ lost €3bn on a bet, which has to be paid for one way or another.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on June 05, 2013, 06:31:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 05, 2013, 05:07:59 PM
QuoteThe CFDs were built up by Sean Quinn senior in Anglo from 2005 through a Madeira-registered company, Bazzely, owned by the Quinn children.

I never knew that.

I think the best solution would be if the courts found all of the relevant transactions illegal and locked all of the involved parties up for at least 10 years for deliberate manipulation of the markets.
+1 - and charge them the market value of the cost of keeping the cnuts locked up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on June 05, 2013, 09:37:36 PM
Quinns case seems to be getting stronger by the week :)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on June 06, 2013, 10:43:01 AM
I take it you don't expect a United Ireland any time soon because when it comes ye bucks up North will also be paying for the depredations of the Quinns and the like.
and even more so if their "case" gets stronger.
You mightn't be so fond of your smilie face then  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 06, 2013, 11:21:11 AM
Yeah SQ contributed nothing to Ireland at all did he.  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on June 06, 2013, 02:07:31 PM
Did his companies ever export anything?
Because if they didn't all he did was redistribute money that was in the country already -- while keeping a good slice of it for him and his family ( which is what he went into businees for no doubt - and fair enough too)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 06, 2013, 02:12:47 PM
Are you serious? Did the Quinn Group export??? Not only did they export but they had factories in Europe for plastics, packaging, glass, concrete, radiators. All of which had the head office in Ireland.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on June 06, 2013, 03:14:06 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 06, 2013, 02:12:47 PM
Are you serious? Did the Quinn Group export??? Not only did they export but they had factories in Europe for plastics, packaging, glass, concrete, radiators. All of which had the head office in Ireland.

Hmmmmmm. ::)
Ukraine or Russia   :P
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on June 06, 2013, 04:28:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 06, 2013, 02:07:31 PM
Did his companies ever export anything?
Because if they didn't all he did was redistribute money that was in the country already -- while keeping a good slice of it for him and his family ( which is what he went into businees for no doubt - and fair enough too)

If you are going to get involved in running Quinn down at every opportunity at least educate yourself in some of the facts...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on June 06, 2013, 04:45:26 PM
Which are.........
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on June 06, 2013, 05:09:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 06, 2013, 04:45:26 PM
Which are.........

Well the fact that you did not even know of his international business and major exports would suggest that you know very little about the Quinn group but feel comfortable in slagging an calling for heads.

Are you just a WUM?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on June 06, 2013, 05:36:38 PM
What were his major exports? I already asked that question  in response to a comment by one of the Quinn backers and only got abuse from you and another Quinn lover.

Not that it makes any difference - if Quinns win their case - to the obvious glee of a lot of ye bucks from North of the Border - we the plain people of the the 26 Cos will have to pay for it and so will ye in the future All Ireland State/Entity.

Only difference between the Quinns and the other cnuts liike Fitzpatrick, Dunne and  dozens of others is that only the Quinns have half the North rooting for them and laughing at the prospect of them getting away with owing €2.8Bn which we in the 26 will have to pay for. >:( >:( >:(
We're already paying 4% levy on our Insurances thanks to the Quinns. >:( >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on June 06, 2013, 09:00:45 PM
I hope they win simply because I know they will once again invest in the local community and once again create hundreds if not thousands of jobs giving a major boost to the local economy. Quinn may have made mistakes but I would rather he got another go with x amount of millions/billions than let the irish government squander it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on June 06, 2013, 10:28:18 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on June 06, 2013, 09:00:45 PM
I hope they win simply because I know they will once again invest in the local community and once again create hundreds if not thousands of jobs giving a major boost to the local economy. Quinn may have made mistakes but I would rather he got another go with x amount of millions/billions than let the irish government squander it.

I love this sort of talk about an auld mistake here or there. He bet everything on one horse. A horse called Anglo Irish Bank. He will be spoken about in 500 years time.

He lost nearly €3,000,000,000 and he didn't have the money to cover the margin calls. He went to Anglo and told them about it. They bailed him out. This may have been illegal. Now the Quinns want ME to pay for the mess?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on June 06, 2013, 11:12:57 PM
QuoteQuinn may have made mistakes but I would rather he got another go with x amount of millions/billions than let the irish government squander it.

Yes indeed, they might "squander" the money by running universities for 3 years with the money, providing tens of thousands with qualifications that would allow them prosperous lives. Or they could run the entire Justice system for 15 months, providing some protection against scumbags. They might fund the Arts for the dozen years, or it might like to pay old age pensioners with the money.

Of course, they also might just bet the whole lot on a speculation and lose it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on June 06, 2013, 11:23:24 PM
They might give it out in the mental benefit system in the 26. What is the weekly dole? 200 odd euros? They might give it to a pile of scrounging foreigners who never put a cent into the economy in housing benefit child care etc. They might give it to a few winos who don't have enough to buy their next drink... The list goes on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on June 06, 2013, 11:30:51 PM
There may be details about the structure of benefits that can be debated, but unemployed citizens are more deserving than greedy gamblers who wish to gamble to become even more multi-billionaires, especially as these people's unemployment is largely caused by this type of chancer.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 13, 2013, 09:44:33 AM
BANKRUPT businessman Sean Quinn's family say the Department of Finance and the financial regulator were well aware the former Anglo Irish Bank gave unlawful loans to prop up its share price in 2008.




An email from Anglo's then CEO David Drumm – under the subject line "regulator squared" – is among documents being relied on by the family to support their claims, according to documents filed in the High Court.

The Quinns are attempting to have the Department of Finance and Central Bank joined as co-defendants with Anglo's successor, the liquidated Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), in the family's action denying liability for €2.34bn in loans.

And yesterday, in a separate hearing, the Supreme Court ruled that IBRC can proceed with its appeal against a High Court decision allowing the Quinn family litigate claims the bank unlawfully "shovelled" €2.34bn loans into Quinn companies to shore up its share price.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: fearbrags on June 24, 2013, 01:49:50 PM
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/inside-anglo-the-secret-recordings-29366837.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on June 24, 2013, 01:53:28 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on June 24, 2013, 01:49:50 PM
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/inside-anglo-the-secret-recordings-29366837.html

There are no words for those 2 boys.  >:( >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 24, 2013, 04:40:27 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on June 24, 2013, 01:53:28 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on June 24, 2013, 01:49:50 PM
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/inside-anglo-the-secret-recordings-29366837.html

There are no words for those 2 boys.  >:( >:(


There are quite a few words to describe them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on June 24, 2013, 05:12:51 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on June 24, 2013, 01:53:28 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on June 24, 2013, 01:49:50 PM
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/inside-anglo-the-secret-recordings-29366837.html

There are no words for those 2 boys.  >:( >:(

(http://www.asterix-obelix.nl/images/allusions/an-03-swearing.jpg)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on June 24, 2013, 06:11:31 PM
No surprise really. It just shows though that the mob witch hunt usually settles for only one or two big names. I never heard of Bowe but I hope to be hearing a lot more about him soon.

Of course there isn't a single new crime that would apply to any of these people if they did the same thing all over again.

Just off the top of my head to put all of that tape in context. It happened months after Anglo had thrown money at Quinn, the Maple 10 and the Quinn children. And it happened BEFORE Lenihan told the Dáil that the Bank Guarantee was to deal with a liquidity problem and not an insolvency problem. That tape suggests official Ireland knew differently.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 27, 2013, 03:04:42 PM

BANKRUPT businessman Sean Quinn has broken a self-imposed silence to insist his children were the victims of his mistakes.






In an interview with today's 'Impartial Reporter' newspaper, the one-time billionaire said spending time in Mountjoy Prison last year for contempt of court has made him more "determined" to restore the family's name.

He also said that it was his belief that Taoiseach Enda Kenny must have known about his ill-fated acquisition of shares in Anglo Irish Bank.

Mr Quinn also dismissed legal action over the costs of his daughter Ciara's wedding six years ago - including a cake reportedly costing €100,000 - as a "Mickey Mouse argument."




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on June 27, 2013, 04:52:15 PM
QuoteHe also said that it was his belief that Taoiseach Enda Kenny must have known about his ill-fated acquisition of shares in Anglo Irish Bank.

He didn't really say that did he?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2013, 05:32:37 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2013, 04:52:15 PM
QuoteHe also said that it was his belief that Taoiseach Enda Kenny must have known about his ill-fated acquisition of shares in Anglo Irish Bank.

He didn't really say that did he?

So now it's all Kenny's fault?  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 27, 2013, 07:05:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2013, 04:52:15 PM
QuoteHe also said that it was his belief that Taoiseach Enda Kenny must have known about his ill-fated acquisition of shares in Anglo Irish Bank.

He didn't really say that did he?

Kenny questioned Cowen in the Dail that the loans were illegal and in breach of Section 60 back I 2009. So I'd say he had a fair idea what was going on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 28, 2013, 10:09:12 AM
They really don't want this issue heard in a court.

QuoteThe Irish Bank Resolution Corporation has asked the Supreme Court to hear urgently its appeal aimed at preventing the Quinn family litigating their claims that the former Anglo Irish Bank illegally advanced €2.4 billion loans from 2008 to Quinn companies to prop up its falling share price.

But Martin Hayden SC, for the Quinns, said it was "amazing" that State-owned IBRC (into which Anglo was merged ) was contending that no such unlawful loans were advanced when "another arm of the State" has brought criminal proceedings against former Anglo executives alleging they were.

He said IBRC's appeal was not urgent, and that the Quinns only had one senior and a junior counsel available to deal with more urgent matters, including their application to join the Central Bank and the Department of Finance as co-defendants with IBRC on grounds alleging they were well aware of the allegedly unlawful loans.

A July 9th, 2008, email from then Anglo chief executive David Drumm entitled "regulator squared" is among documents relied on by the Quinns to support those claims.

Emails between Mr Drumm and Anglo colleague Declan Quilligan that day began with one from Mr Drumm with "regulator squared" in the subject field but no text, to which Mr Quilligan replied: "Excellent! I hope he was grateful!"

Mr Drumm replied: "Excited I would say – I think he is lying awake at night like the rest of us."


Infamous
Referring to those emails, Aoife Quinn said in an affidavit that she believed the apparent apprehension of the regulator and Anglo was that the bank was running out of time in terms of the funding it could continue to provide to meet margin calls in support of its own shares.

It was around then the "infamous Maple 10 consortium" was put in place and one Anglo email referred to them as the "10 disciples", she said.

In seeking priority yesterday for its appeal against the High Court's finding that the Quinns were entitled to litigate claims that the €2.4 billion in loans breached section 60 of the Companies Act (outlawing loans to prop up an institution's share price) and market abuse regulations, Paul Gallagher SC, for IBRC, said its appeal was "of very singular urgency" because it related to liability for loans of €2.4 billion and the Quinns' denial of liability for those.

He said if the Supreme Court overturned the High Court's decision that would greatly reduce the expected six to eight-month duration of the family's case as the claims of market abuse and illegality would not have to be addressed. IBRC was also still trying to recover dissipated assets.

When Mr Gallagher said the loans at issue in the family's case were not the same loans subject of the criminal prosecutions, Mr Hayden said that was incorrect.

Mr Hayden handed in a timeline to the Chief Justice, Ms Justice Susan Denham, outlining the various proceedings involving the Quinns which will have them in court on several dates this month, next month, August and October.

His side was trying to prepare for those hearings with very limited resources while the bank had three senior counsel, three juniors and solicitors.

There was no urgency as the criminal proceedings against the former Anglo executives were not for hearing until January 2014.

The Chief Justice said she would give the Quinns to October 31st to file their submissions opposing the appeal and would decide, after reading the submissions, whether it merited a priority hearing.


Liquidators
Next month the Commercial Court will deal with the Quinns' application to join the Central Bank and Department of Finance as co-defendants with IBRC to the family's case.

The application is opposed by Kieran Wallace, one of the IBRC special liquidators, on grounds including it comes too late and raises a different cause of action.

In her affidavit for that application, Aoife Quinn says emails and other documents discovered by IBRC, plus various reports and Dáil debates, show the then regulator Patrick Neary and the Department of Finance knew Anglo was advancing unlawful loans to Quinn companies during 2008.


Inconceivable
It was "simply inconceivable" the Minister for Finance was not fully aware of the actions of Anglo, in conjunction with the regulator, to unwind Quinn Contract for Difference positions in Anglo shares, she says.

The Quinns claim the department was actively involved in Anglo's affairs throughout 2008 and that its conduct in January 2009 was effectively attempting to cover up its knowledge and involvement in matters from September 2007.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on June 28, 2013, 01:30:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 27, 2013, 07:05:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2013, 04:52:15 PM
QuoteHe also said that it was his belief that Taoiseach Enda Kenny must have known about his ill-fated acquisition of shares in Anglo Irish Bank.

He didn't really say that did he?

Kenny questioned Cowen in the Dail that the loans were illegal and in breach of Section 60 back I 2009. So I'd say he had a fair idea what was going on.

Ah come on.

The loans were in summer 2008.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 28, 2013, 02:46:50 PM
I know. Did you read the whole interview? He wasn't saying that he was aware of the loans before they happened. He was saying that Enda was aware of the illegality of the loans from 2009, and obviously was still aware when he became Taoiseach. From reading the article, it looks like it might have been in response to a question the way it jumps from one thing to another. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on June 28, 2013, 02:53:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on June 28, 2013, 02:46:50 PM
I know. Did you read the whole interview? He wasn't saying that he was aware of the loans before they happened. He was saying that Enda was aware of the illegality of the loans from 2009, and obviously was still aware when he became Taoiseach. From reading the article, it looks like it might have been in response to a question the way it jumps from one thing to another.

I didn't read it at all as I thought if that is the headline then there is nothing of value in the article.

Saying Kenny knew about it, but actually meaning he knew when everyone else knew, long after the event, is simply a waste of breath.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 28, 2013, 03:02:47 PM
I know, that's why it reads more like it was in answer to a question than a statement in itself.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on July 17, 2013, 05:29:42 PM
The Quinns back in court again today to try and join the DOF and central Bank. Can't see Judge Kelly ruling in their favour so would expect to see this one go to the Surpreme Court.

Quote

The Department of Finance and Central Bank conspired with Anglo Irish Bank in its advancing more than €2 billion in loans to Quinn companies for the unlawful purpose of propping up its share price, it has been alleged at the Commercial Court.

That conspiracy involved the department arranging for documents from Anglo to be "significantly amended" to disguise the true extent of its knowledge about what was happening in relation to the loans, the Quinn family claims.

The family of bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn want the Department and Central Bank, in their capacity as regulators, joined as co-defendants with Anglo in their action denying liability for those loans.

The family are alleging conspiracy, breach of duty and misfeasance in public office against those parties.

Martin Hayden SC, for the family, said documents showed officials in the department were aware at "every step" of the way from October 2007 of the difficulties being experienced by Anglo in dealing with the Contract for Difference positions built up by Sean Quinn in the bank.

In an affidavit, Aoife Quinn said the department arranged for documents to be "significantly amended" to disguise the extent of its knowledge that Anglo had unlawfully loaned vast sums to support its share price.

Ms Quinn said various documents, including material discovered by Anglo, showed the Deparment, Financial Regulator, the Central Bank and Anglo were all aware the bank was loaning huge sums to Quinn companies to meet margin calls on Contract for Difference positions built up by her father in Anglo.

While some documents asserted the loans were for "working capital purposes", other documents, including trasncripts of phone conversations between various former Anglo executives, made clear their true purpose was to meet margin calls, she said.

After the bank was nationalised, the Department had arranged for alterations in a draft letter from Anglo's new chairman, Donal O'Connor, to the Minister, she said. That letter was responding to the Department's own request for a report on lending for the purpose of acquiring shares in the bank, it has been claimed at the Comemrcial Court.

The first draft of the letter involved a "categorical acceptance" Anglo was lending for the purpose of acquiring its own shares but the letter ultimately sent to the Minister for Finance, said exactly the opposite, she said.

The application to join the Department and Central Bank is opposed by Kieran Wallace, special liquidator of Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (formerly Anglo) on grounds including it will fundamentally alter the nature of the case. He has also alleged delay by the Quinns in seeking to have the two parties joined.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly began hearing the application this morning when he was told the Quinns have prepared a draft plenary summons outlining their claims against the Department and Central Bank.

In affidavits, Ms Quinn has referred to many documents, including transcripts of phone calls and emails between various Ango executives; the "O'Connor Report" of January 2009 reviewing transactions concerning the Quinn group; communications between her father and the bank and communications with the Department and Minister of Finance.

An applicaiton to Anglo's credit committee dated June 3rd 2008 , stated Sean Quinn had requested the bank to provide €140 million funding. That document continued: "This is to be used to fund cash calls relating to the recent fall in the Anglo share price", she said.

Anglo, she alleged, had knowingly drafted loan facility letters in an incorrect and false manner to suggest monies were advanced for "working capital requirements" when they were really being advanced to meet margin calls on the Quinn CFDs.

After Anglo was nationalised, its newly apointed chairman Donal O'Connor had written to then Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan on February 4th 2009, she said.

A previous draft of that letter had said: "As requested, I enclose a report on the extent of lending for the purposes of share acquisitions and contracts for difefrence generally and Anglo shares in particular". This draft represented "a categorical acceptance on behalf of Anglo to having funded the purchase of its own shares", she said.


However,the letter ultimaterly sent to the Minister, dated February 4th 2009, was amended to read: "The total extent of lending by the bank for the purposes of acquiring publicly quoted shares is €1.777bn. We do not lend for the purpose of taking positions in contracts for difference. Of the total, €918.6m related to lending for the purpose of acquiring shares in Anglo.."

It was difficult to marry the two drafts on this issue, Ms Quinn said. In her view, such "a significant change in wording" in response to the Minister's request showed the Department of Finance dictated the terms of the response to its own request.

Her view was supported by a file note discovered by Anglo, dated February 3rd 2009, which set out the minutes of a meeting with various people including Ann Nolan of the Department and Donal O'Connor, she said. Under the heading "lending against bank's shares", that note stated: "DO'C provided a draft of the letter which is proposed wil be sent to the Minister tomorrow in response to his letter received late last week. AN agreed to read the letter and revert with any comments."

It was clear the Department wrote to Ango about lending secured against its shares, Anglo drafted a letter for the Department, the Dept reviewed the Anglo draft and significanty amended it so it stated the opposite to what was in the original draft, she said.

This led to a heightened concern on the Quinns part the Department, knowing what went on in Anglo, "has actively engaged in seeking to cover up the true state of affairs in the knowledge of likely further legal proceedings". The Minister's knowledge of what went on was greater than the documents suggested as it was now clear they did not truly represent matters, she claimed

A letter from Donal O'Connor to Ann Nolan dated March 24th 2009 acknowledged working capital was really a reference to margin calls, she said.

Other documents discovered by Anglo made clear the regulator was apprised by Anglo of matters on an ongoing basis and knew it was lending to fund margin calls, she said. It seemed the regulator was prepared to tolerate this in the short term in the expectation the Quinn CFD holding would be diluted. The regulator was also aware of and actively participated in the design and execution of the "Maple 10" transaction involving Anglo making loans to its best customers to be used to try and dilute the Quinn CFDs, she claimed.

The hearing continues.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on August 06, 2013, 01:02:20 PM
The family of bankrupt businessman Seán Quinn has failed in its attempt to lift orders freezing their bank accounts below €50 million.

Judge Michael Peart said he was satisfied that the "balance of convenience" remains in favour of leaving the orders in place.

Irish Bank Resolution Corporation secured the orders against the five Quinn children and three of their spouses.

The proceedings alleged various members of the family and some companies engaged in a scheme to put assets, with an estimated value of $500m, in the Quinn international property group beyond the bank's reach.

The bank had claimed that many of those assets are now "distressed" and it only has full control of one, a property in Moscow.

The Quinns had disputed the bank had valid security of the assets and claimed its own actions had adversely affected the value of the assets.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 11, 2013, 01:56:00 PM
Getting personal now.


QuoteTim Healy – 07 October 2013

THE High Court has given permission to the family of bankrupt former billionaire Sean Quinn to serve legal proceedings on former Anglo Irish Bank CEO David Drumm in the United States.

The Quinns intend to sue Mr Drumm in the Irish courts, along with ten other former Anglo directors, and the Central Bank and Department of Finance in their capacity as regulators,  over loans of some €2.34bn allegedly unlawfully issued by Anglo to Quinn companies during 2007 and 2008. 



It is alleged those loans were intended to fund margin calls on financial derivatives, known as "Contract for Difference" (CFD) positions, held by the Quinn family in Anglo shares.



Mrs Patricia Quinn and her five children claim Mr Drumm was, between 2004 and 2008, directly involved in, and played "a leading role" as CEO, in the alleged actions of Anglo.



The ten former directors are - Declan Quilligan, Wetherby Place, London; Patrick Whelan, Coast Road, Malahide, Co Dublin; Lar Bradshaw, Church Road, Killiney, Co Dublin; Fintan Drury, Old Russian Village, Kilquade, Co Wicklow; Noel Harwerth, Grosvenor Square, London; Anne Heraty, Highfield Road, Rathgar, Dublin; Michael Jacob, Newtownpark Avenue, Blackrock, Co Dublin; Willie McAteer, Auburn Villas, Rathgar, Dublin; Gerard William McGann, Stonehouse, Donnybrook, Dublin;  and Edmond Francis Sullivan, Linden Fields, Grove Avenue, Blackrock, Co Dublin. 



The Quinns allege the former directors either collectively or individually authorised the advancing of loans to Quinn companies and this was illegal and/or wrongful and caused damage to the Quinns.



They are claiming damages against all defendants for alleged conspiracy, breach of duty including statutory and fiduciary duties, negligence, and misfeasance in public office.



In reply to Mr Justice Kevin Cross yesterday about the "status" of Mr Drumm, Martin Hayden SC, for the Quinns, said Mr Drumm was not a bankrupt and his side were proceeding against him.




Counsel also indicated his clients would apply at a later stage to have their proceedings against the various defendants fast-tracked in the Commercial Court.



The Quinns intend these latest proceedings against the regulators and former directors will be consolidated with their existing proceedings against Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC) in which they contend they are not liable for the €2.34bn loans on grounds those were unlawfully made to prop up Anglo's then plummeting share price.



The existing action against IBRC, known as the main action, has been "parked" pending the conclusion of criminal proceedings against Mr Whelan, Mr McAteer and former Anglo Chairman Sean Fitzpatrick, who has been adjudicated bankrupt.



Yesterday, Mr Justice Cross granted Mr Hayden leave to issue proceedings against Mr Drumm and to serve the papers on him at an address at Old Colony Road, Wellesley, Massachusetts, USA.



In the intended proceedings, the Quinns allege the defendants, their servants and/or agents conspired to commit illegal and/or unlawful acts through breaches of Section 60 of the Companies Act and the regulations issued under the EC Market Abuse Directive.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on October 11, 2013, 04:36:37 PM
Getting desperate more like.

Even if they win that, and it might be of great value to the rest of us if they did, I can't see them getting their debt written off. Handling ill gotten goods doesn't usually go down well in the courts.

I think I would enjoy seeing some of the senior Anglo directors in the dock though.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 11, 2013, 04:47:43 PM
I wouldn't call it desperate. It makes no difference to the case against IBRC/ DOF. That's the only one that matters now with regards to compensation. But I'm sure it does help to shine a light on the individuals within the bank, especially considering Anglo was going to be left out of any enquiry.

Next week will be important for the Quinns as they seek to get all assets of QG ring fenced from being sold of before the court case next year.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on October 11, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 11, 2013, 04:47:43 PM
I wouldn't call it desperate. It makes no difference to the case against IBRC/ DOF. That's the only one that matters now with regards to compensation. But I'm sure it does help to shine a light on the individuals within the bank, especially considering Anglo was going to be left out of any enquiry.

Next week will be important for the Quinns as they seek to get all assets of QG ring fenced from being sold of before the court case next year.

The reason I say desperate is because I can't see how it helps them.

"It is alleged those loans were intended to fund margin calls on financial derivatives, known as "Contract for Difference" (CFD) positions, held by the Quinn family in Anglo shares."

They admit the loans were to pay off their debts (margin calls) from the disastrous CFDs. They already were in debt and don't appear to dispute this. Anglo tried to save Quinn (and thus themselves) by loaning them this money to meet the margin calls. In this way Quinn debts were simply transferred from the CFDs to Anglo. But the Quinns are trying to have their cake and eat it by using Anglo to loan them money to pay off their debts, and then claim Anglo shouldn't have given them the money so they don't owe anything!

Thus now the Quinns want me as a taxpayer to pay for all this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 11, 2013, 05:10:31 PM
The CFD's were held by SQ not the Quinn family. SQ could have went bust, and taken certain assets with him, but not the group. The Group was only tied in when Anglo got backdated Guarantees signed by the children without legal representation.

And Anglo didn't try to save Quinn, they were putting pressure on him to take the loans and it wasn't for his benefit- in fact they were pushing him to continue to look like a "Buyer not a Seller" of Anglo shares right up to 2008.
And this was without taking into account the fact that anglo, the government at the time & the regulator knew that Anglo's books were cooked.

They're not asking you to pay for anything. They are asking for assets back that the state have taken that they don't believe they have a right to. If I had assets taken from me by someone that I don't believe owns them, I'd be asking for them back as well regardless of whether it was a tax payer or not.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on October 11, 2013, 05:52:09 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 11, 2013, 05:10:31 PM
The CFD's were held by SQ not the Quinn family. SQ could have went bust, and taken certain assets with him, but not the group. The Group was only tied in when Anglo got backdated Guarnatees signed by the children without legal representation.

And Anglo didn't try to save Quinn, they were putting pressure on him to take the loans and it wasn't for his benefit- in fact they were pushing him to continue to look like a "Buyer not a Seller" of Anglo shares right up to 2008.
And this was without taking into account the fact that anglo, the government at the time & the regulator knew that Anglo's books were cooked.

They're not asking you to pay for anything. They are asking for assets back that the state have taken that they don't believe they have a right to. If I had assets taken from me by someone that I don't believe owns them, I'd be asking for them back as well regardless of whether it was a tax payer or not.

Here are a few paragraphs from Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (page 151/152).

As Anglo's share price fell, the bank continued to supply Sean Quinn with 'working-capital' facilities to enable him to meet his margin calls. The board approved the loans, and the Financial Regulator was notified.
An internal report compiled almost two years earlier shows the rapid growth of Quinn's borrowings from the bank as the value of his investment in it fell further and further. Over a six-day period around the St. Patrick's Day massacre Quinn drew down €367.5 million - an average of €60 million a day - to meet the mounting losses on his investment, according to the Anglo report........

.......On 18 March Quinn Group Chief Executive Liam McCaffrey fired off a letter to Michael O'Sullivan, the Anglo lender who managed Quinn's account at the bank, in relation to that day's €220 million draw-down. The letter was astonishing. Writing on behalf of Quinn, McCaffrey effectively signed over potential control of the Quinn Group, a business he had built up through hard graft over a thirty-year period. In return for the latest loan, Quinn agreed to hand over the share certificates in the main company at the apex of the Quinn corporate pyramid. If covered the ownership and ultimate control of his many and varied businesses........

.....'I can confirm that as additional comfort in relation to the security on this facility the Quinn family are prepared to support their personal guarantees by giving Anglo Irish Bank Corporation plc physical custody of their shares in Quinn Group ROI Ltd,' said McCaffrey in the letter to the bank.


As for this: "they were putting pressure on him to take the loans and it wasn't for his benefit- in fact they were pushing him to continue to look like a "Buyer not a Seller" of Anglo shares right up to 2008."

I think you are seriously misinformed. Quinn bought the shares via a CFD. Anglo didn't even know about it, let alone encourage it. Fitzpatrick & Drumm first met Quinn to discuss the CFD on 11 sep 2007 when Quinn told them he held 24% of Anglo shares. Anglo Republic page 111: "Fitzpatrick and Drumm were gobsmacked.....Drumm later told colleagues it was the only time he ever saw Fitzpatrick rendered speechless". After this meeting Quinn actually increased his holding to 28-29%. Anglo wanted him to reduce his holding as they saw it as extremely dangerous for the bank. That is what the Maple 10 were about.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2013, 03:50:09 PM
The details regarding the letter by Liam McCaffrey will be involved in the case so I'll not go into too that. But there's a lot more than what was in Anglo Republic, including the attempt by IBRC (Not even Anglo!!) To get retrospective documents signed by the Quinn Children.

I'm not misinformed regarding the "buyer not seller" comment. That was actually part of the Anglo tapes.
Quote

One of the most hotly contested issues between the two sides is whether or not Anglo chiefs encouraged the former billionaire's massive, and doomed, gamble on their bank's shares in the run up to the banking crisis of 2008.

The latest Anglo Tapes do reveal how Mr Quinn was told by Mr Drumm that he needed to get a message out of confidence in the bank by saying he was "a buyer not a seller" of the bank's shares.

Anglo bosses were desperate to prevent the collapse in the price of their bank's shares that would have happened if Mr Quinn had started publicly ditching his massive holdings of the stock, the tapes show.

That's from the independent. They knew, that SQ was still buying shares in the bank in 2008 at a time when the directors knew it was going to the wall.

And in seperate news I see the Quinn group attempting fraud of their biggest glass customer. A customer who is responsible for 20% of it's business, diagio. When a batch of glass worth close to a million was returned due to quality issues, the head hunchos in Quinns decided it would be a better idea to re label the same shipment and send it back out to them rather than recyling and redoing. But diagio got wind, so now they're whole contract is in danger. These are the sort of people running the show now. People who are selling of assets like plant and machinery to try and balance books!! Paul O'Brien should have been roaded out of there ages ago.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2013, 04:38:15 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 12, 2013, 03:50:09 PM
The details regarding the letter by Liam McCaffrey will be involved in the case so I'll not go into too that. But there's a lot more than what was in Anglo Republic, including the attempt by IBRC (Not even Anglo!!) To get retrospective documents signed by the Quinn Children.

I'm not misinformed regarding the "buyer not seller" comment. That was actually part of the Anglo tapes.
Quote

One of the most hotly contested issues between the two sides is whether or not Anglo chiefs encouraged the former billionaire's massive, and doomed, gamble on their bank's shares in the run up to the banking crisis of 2008.

The latest Anglo Tapes do reveal how Mr Quinn was told by Mr Drumm that he needed to get a message out of confidence in the bank by saying he was "a buyer not a seller" of the bank's shares.

Anglo bosses were desperate to prevent the collapse in the price of their bank's shares that would have happened if Mr Quinn had started publicly ditching his massive holdings of the stock, the tapes show.

That's from the independent. They knew, that SQ was still buying shares in the bank in 2008 at a time when the directors knew it was going to the wall.

And in seperate news I see the Quinn group attempting fraud of their biggest glass customer. A customer who is responsible for 20% of it's business, diagio. When a batch of glass worth close to a million was returned due to quality issues, the head hunchos in Quinns decided it would be a better idea to re label the same shipment and send it back out to them rather than recyling and redoing. But diagio got wind, so now they're whole contract is in danger. These are the sort of people running the show now. People who are selling of assets like plant and machinery to try and balance books!! Paul O'Brien should have been roaded out of there ages ago.

Hang on a second. You are twisting things and ignoring context to suit your argument.

The bit in bold conflicts with Carswell's (to date unused) account and is inconsistent with the secretive nature of CFDs. Quinn told Anglo he had 24% at his first meeting with Fitzpatrick and Drumm. That was the first or the board they knew of it. How could they have encouraged him to do that when they were absolutely horrified when they became aware of it?

The Anglo tapes saying Quinn or Anglo should put out a message that Quinn was a 'buyer not a seller' is irrelevant. It is not the same as saying: 'Sean, you must buy more shares'.

'Putting out a message' is what people do when they are spinning or trying give given an impression that often is completely opposite to the reality. But it means nothing. The facts are that they wanted him to reduce his holding, they founds buyers (Maple 10) to help him do that and SQ bought the extra shares in 2008 despite Fitzpatrick and Drumm telling him to 'unwind' his holding.

Anglo believed that Quinn saw the share price rising but didn't connect that to his own buying and decided to buy more!

Regardless, as the Quinn family has not included Sean Quinn nor Liam McCaffrey along with the Anglo directors in their case I personally can't take it seriously.

Back to the Indo allegation  ::), can you provide another reasonably reliable source that alleges the Anglo directors encouraged Quinn directly to enter the CFDs?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2013, 08:54:24 PM
I haven't twisted anything. Nor have I said that Anglo were aware of the CFD's. But they were aware SQ was still buying shares directly in 2008 after they were aware of the CFD's. And your welcome to think what you like regards the "buyer nott Seller"  comments but my take on it would be different from yours.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2013, 10:56:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 12, 2013, 08:54:24 PM
I haven't twisted anything. Nor have I said that Anglo were aware of the CFD's. But they were aware SQ was still buying shares directly in 2008 after they were aware of the CFD's. And your welcome to think what you like regards the "buyer nott Seller"  comments but my take on it would be different from yours.

You seem to be clinging to this belief that somehow Anglo forced Sean Quinn into the CFDs. I have seen no evidence of this and I see no one else claiming this to be the case. Also, after Quinn told them he had built up a holding of 24%, he went ahead and bought more, of his own volition, while they wanted him to reduce his holding.

Now which of the above paragraph do you believe is untrue?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2013, 11:16:51 PM
Muppet, there's wires crossed alright. I've never claimed Anglo were aware of the CFD's before the meeting with SQ. But the group was never in danger before Anglo financed the marginal calls. The security of the group were not tied to the CFD's. Certain assets were, but not the group. So had SQ done what was claimed in the Anglo tapes and cut his losses the group wouldn't have been lost. Anglo couldn't risk these shares being dumped on the market. Anglo weren't offering the loans for the benefit of the Quins it was for their own protection and to try and stave of the crash that they knew was on the way anyway.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2013, 11:27:20 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 12, 2013, 11:16:51 PM
Muppet, there's wires crossed alright. I've never claimed Anglo were aware of the CFD's before the meeting with SQ. But the group was never in danger before Anglo financed the marginal calls. The security of the group were not tied to the CFD's. Certain assets were, but not the group. So had SQ done what was claimed in the Anglo tapes and cut his losses the group wouldn't have been lost. Anglo couldn't risk these shares being dumped on the market. Anglo weren't offering the loans for the benefit of the Quins it was for their own protection and to try and stave of the crash that they knew was on the way anyway.

Yes no one disputes that Anglo helped Quinn for their own good.

But the problem for the Quinns is that Sean Quinn was already screwed because of his bet.

That letter from McCaffrey puts it to bed.

The real question is why haven't the Quinn family put SQ and McCaffrey in the dock if, as you seem to suggest and correct me if I misunderstand, those two signed away property that didn't belong to them?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 12, 2013, 11:40:39 PM
I expect SQ to be part of the proceedings before the end. But SQ is bankrupt, so no compensation claim can proceed against him. But I expect Anglo to join him to the case along with Liam MCCAFFREY.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2013, 11:44:44 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 12, 2013, 11:40:39 PM
I expect SQ to be part of the proceedings before the end. But SQ is bankrupt, so no compensation claim can proceed against him. But I expect Anglo to join him to the case along with Liam MCCAFFREY.

If this is the road they are going, that letter could create serious problems.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 29, 2013, 01:33:51 PM
Tim Healy– 29 October 2013

THE sale of Sean Quinn junior's Dublin home for between €400,000 and €440,000 in the next four weeks will finally purge contempt of court orders against him, a judge said today.


Ms Justice Elizabeth Dunne said once the sale of the house at Alder Lodge, Castleknock is completed, that will be the end of the contempt proceedings against Mr Quinn who shares the house with his wife Karen Woods.

Mr Quinn's half of the proceeds will go to Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC) which brought contempt proceedings against him over a High Court finding he participated in a US$500,000 payment to the general director of Quinn Properties Ukraine (QPU), Larissa Puga, on the eve of IBRC'S takeover of QPU.

He was jailed for three months for contempt but he was still required to take steps to repay the money involved in order to fully purge his contempt.

To do so, he offered to sell the Dublin house and today his counsel Martin Hayden said Mr Quinn had received two valuations from auctioneers of €400,000 and €440,000.

A buyer has made an offer in which Mr Quinn's 50 per cent share can be paid as directed by the court, counsel said.

Ms Justice Dunne said this went some way towards meeting the requirement for Mr Quinn to purge his contempt.  While it was not the full amount, it was the best that can be done under the circumstances, she said.

Once the sale is complete, the matter should come back before her in December for the court to direct what should be done with the money received, she said.

When this is done, she said, "that will be the end of the matter as far as Sean Quinn junior is concerned," she said.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 12, 2013, 12:16:06 PM
Burn baby burn

Tanker set alight at Quinn Group HQ in Derrylin, County Fermanagh The fire was put out before it could spread to the building


A fuel tanker has been driven into the headquarters of the Quinn Group in County Fermanagh and set alight.

Firefighters were able to put out the fire in the tanker's cab before it spread to the building.

The tanker was reversed into the building on the Ballyconnell Road in Derrylin at around 23:00 GMT on Wednesday.

The company, recently rebranded as Aventas Group, condemned the "moronic attempt to disrupt our business".

The fuel tanker was reported to have been stolen from a nearby property in Derrylin.

It appeared to have been driven through security bollards at the entrance to the building.

It has a Cassidy Oils logo on the side and is surrounded by foam used to extinguish the fire.

'Sabotage'

The building is closed and police are still at the scene, which remains cordoned off.

The company statement said: "We are very grateful to the PSNI for their prompt response and to the local fire brigade, especially given the ever present danger of a tanker explosion.

"This latest incident is part of a continuing campaign of sabotage, intimidation and vilification against this company and certain of its employees.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aventas, the new name for Quinn Group, supposedly represents the arrival of something notable and new.

The attacks on this company however have become all too familiar.

Signs supporting the former owner Sean Quinn still line roads throughout the area.

"These people have a concerted agenda to undermine and destabilise our business with their own misguided and self-interested agenda in mind.

"Despite the 'concerns' regularly expressed by some of these people they have no regard for the impact such activities could have on our employees' jobs and on the local economy, which is so dependent on our businesses.

"Our group changed ownership nearly three years ago. With the continued support of our employees, we continue to face down this misguided minority with resolute determination."

'Grave concern'

Phil Flanagan, Sinn Féin MLA for Fermanagh and South Tyrone, said: "This is a despicable act and is not representative of the local community.

"Those behind these actions are not acting out of loyalty to the Quinn family and are not furthering any cause.

"The only result of such activity will be employment opportunities being impacted upon and that is a matter of grave concern for the people of the local community."

Police have asked anyone who was travelling on the Ballyconnell Road between 22:30 and 23:30 GMT, and who saw anything suspicious, to contact them on 0845 600 8000, or anonymously on Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.

There have been a number of previous attempted arson attacks on Quinn Group property.

All were condemned by the company's former owner, Sean Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 12, 2013, 02:02:11 PM
Lots of lovely premises around Co Roscommon that these people can relocate to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 10, 2014, 09:06:16 PM
I see Sean sr was giving evidence at the Anglo trial today. really does show how some of these bankers operated back in the day. A loan of €500m arranged in a conversation to plug a "hole" like it was a parking ticket.
The numbers are frightening.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 10, 2014, 09:12:56 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 10, 2014, 09:06:16 PM
I see Sean sr was giving evidence at the Anglo trial today. really does show how some of these bankers operated back in the day. A loan of €500m arranged in a conversation to plug a "hole" like it was a parking ticket.
The numbers are frightening.

Quinn has some serious questions to answer as well. It was his 'hole'.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 10, 2014, 09:29:17 PM
Sean Quinn on trial is he? As he admitted on numerous occasions today he might have been greedy,stupid etc but there are no criminal charges against him. He gambled and lost. Big.

The case this week is about whether the house was stacking the deck in its favour.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on February 10, 2014, 10:50:50 PM
Hopefully every single one of these cnuts will be jailed,and all their assets seized,sold and the proceeds put straight into state coffers.Great Gaels and great Irishmen? Don't make me laugh :(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 10, 2014, 10:56:38 PM
Nobody jailed yet apart from the Quinns and I'm not expecting to see the Anglo boys getting jailed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 10, 2014, 11:03:54 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 10, 2014, 09:29:17 PM
Sean Quinn on trial is he? As he admitted on numerous occasions today he might have been greedy,stupid etc but there are no criminal charges against him. He gambled and lost. Big.

The case this week is about whether the house was stacking the deck in its favour.

Not really. You 'hole' analogy was better. Quinn had punched a massive hole in Anglo (although I think it would have gone down anyway in the long run) and the trial is whether Anglo's attempt to mitigate it was illegal.

But Quinn's initial disastrous gamble can't be blamed on Anglo or their useless management.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 07:24:16 AM
If anything Quinn's cfds kept Anglos life support turned on as it created an artificial market for the shares. My point is that Quinn investing in Anglo was stupid, illformed , greedy whatever you want to call it but it wasn't illegal. He had earned the right to gamble on that scale if he so chose.

some of the actions after the ship started to sink might have been questionable in terms of moving assets et all but to my knowledge he has not been charged under criminal law.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 08:31:11 AM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 07:24:16 AM
If anything Quinn's cfds kept Anglos life support turned on as it created an artificial market for the shares. My point is that Quinn investing in Anglo was stupid, illformed , greedy whatever you want to call it but it wasn't illegal. He had earned the right to gamble on that scale if he so chose.

some of the actions after the ship started to sink might have been questionable in terms of moving assets et all but to my knowledge he has not been charged under criminal law.

Oh dear.

But seriously, I am glad you wrote that. You appear to be arguing for his immediate arrest which is something I would like to see.

It is pathetic and sickening to see him portray himself as some sort of victim of all of this. I see the judge was 'irked' by some of his testimony.

Quinn suggested he had "dipped his toes" in CFDs - http://www.thejournal.ie/sean-quinn-1309099-Feb2014/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/sean-quinn-1309099-Feb2014/).

This is like describing the Irish pack's performance against Wales as: softly wooing them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on February 11, 2014, 08:40:21 AM
Really Muppet? What do you know about his CFD activity before Anglo? Either you can't read or are wilfully misinterpreting a perfectly clear sentence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 08:47:09 AM
Quote from: muppet on February 10, 2014, 11:03:54 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 10, 2014, 09:29:17 PM
Sean Quinn on trial is he? As he admitted on numerous occasions today he might have been greedy,stupid etc but there are no criminal charges against him. He gambled and lost. Big.

The case this week is about whether the house was stacking the deck in its favour.

Not really. You 'hole' analogy was better. Quinn had punched a massive hole in Anglo (although I think it would have gone down anyway in the long run) and the trial is whether Anglo's attempt to mitigate it was illegal.

But Quinn's initial disastrous gamble can't be blamed on Anglo or their useless management.

True, Anglo management couldn't be blamed for SQ making the gamble. That gobsmacking decision will always lie with him. But it was the performance of Anglo that punched the whole in Quinn Group finances. As SQ mentioned yesterday in 2007 Anglo were declaring 46% increase in profits and yet the share price was dropping by 40%. The numbers they were dealing with didn't stack up. Had Anglo been preforming or even holding it's own then QG wouldn't have had to raid it's reserves.
They were saying the bank was in "rude health" when it was obvious they were screwed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on February 11, 2014, 12:34:48 PM
Came across this site today  . . . reminds me of the ramblings of Woundring Wullie!!

https://www.facebook.com/WeAreCIC
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 01:20:14 PM
The maple 10 have started to give evidence now.

It's not looking good for the Anglo board or indeed the Department of Finance/ Regulator at the time. All witnesses so far seem to imply that the department of finance was well informed regarding the deals.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 05:46:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 08:31:11 AM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 07:24:16 AM
If anything Quinn's cfds kept Anglos life support turned on as it created an artificial market for the shares. My point is that Quinn investing in Anglo was stupid, illformed , greedy whatever you want to call it but it wasn't illegal. He had earned the right to gamble on that scale if he so chose.

some of the actions after the ship started to sink might have been questionable in terms of moving assets et all but to my knowledge he has not been charged under criminal law.

Oh dear.
But seriously, I am glad you wrote that. You appear to be arguing for his immediate arrest which is something I would like to see.

It is pathetic and sickening to see him portray himself as some sort of victim of all of this. I see the judge was 'irked' by some of his testimony.

Quinn suggested he had "dipped his toes" in CFDs - http://www.thejournal.ie/sean-quinn-1309099-Feb2014/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/sean-quinn-1309099-Feb2014/).

This is like describing the Irish pack's performance against Wales as: softly wooing them.

Muppet, If you could manage to elaborate on what is confusing you about the bit you highlighted?? And perhaps if you could also elaborate on how you have come to the conclusion "You appear to be arguing for his immediate arrest" ? Pretty clear where you stand on this but not everyone shares your views.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 11, 2014, 05:54:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 01:20:14 PM
The maple 10 have started to give evidence now.

It's not looking good for the Anglo board or indeed the Department of Finance/ Regulator at the time. All witnesses so far seem to imply that the department of finance was well informed regarding the deals.


oops !!!   :-[
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 06:28:44 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 05:46:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 08:31:11 AM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 07:24:16 AM
If anything Quinn's cfds kept Anglos life support turned on as it created an artificial market for the shares. My point is that Quinn investing in Anglo was stupid, illformed , greedy whatever you want to call it but it wasn't illegal. He had earned the right to gamble on that scale if he so chose.

some of the actions after the ship started to sink might have been questionable in terms of moving assets et all but to my knowledge he has not been charged under criminal law.

Oh dear.
But seriously, I am glad you wrote that. You appear to be arguing for his immediate arrest which is something I would like to see.

It is pathetic and sickening to see him portray himself as some sort of victim of all of this. I see the judge was 'irked' by some of his testimony.

Quinn suggested he had "dipped his toes" in CFDs - http://www.thejournal.ie/sean-quinn-1309099-Feb2014/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/sean-quinn-1309099-Feb2014/).

This is like describing the Irish pack's performance against Wales as: softly wooing them.

Muppet, If you could manage to elaborate on what is confusing you about the bit you highlighted?? And perhaps if you could also elaborate on how you have come to the conclusion "You appear to be arguing for his immediate arrest" ? Pretty clear where you stand on this but not everyone shares your views.

If I owned something that 'created an artificial market for the shares', as you said Sean Quinn did, I would be very worried. In fact Sean Quinn was pretty worried too, that is why he eventually went to Anglo to tell them about the CFDs. He was in big trouble, but knew that because of his CFDs - so was Anglo.

The trial is about alleged illegal share dealing and in reality it is about manipulating the market. Seanie and co seem to think that because the Regulator was told about it, that makes it all ok. I really hope that doesn't stand up. Sean Quinn's family's testimony appears to be along the lines of: 'a big boy made me do it' defence. I would be very disappointed if that stood up.

The young Quinn's testimony, from what I read, appears to make no mention of their father. I would also be disappointed if this stood up.

My guess is that this trial will either collapse, or lead to a lot more trials and maybe a lot of convictions. I am hoping it is the latter.

haranguerer, I have dealt with that many times before, for example:

Quote from: muppet on October 12, 2013, 04:38:15 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 12, 2013, 03:50:09 PM
The details regarding the letter by Liam McCaffrey will be involved in the case so I'll not go into too that. But there's a lot more than what was in Anglo Republic, including the attempt by IBRC (Not even Anglo!!) To get retrospective documents signed by the Quinn Children.

I'm not misinformed regarding the "buyer not seller" comment. That was actually part of the Anglo tapes.
Quote

One of the most hotly contested issues between the two sides is whether or not Anglo chiefs encouraged the former billionaire's massive, and doomed, gamble on their bank's shares in the run up to the banking crisis of 2008.

The latest Anglo Tapes do reveal how Mr Quinn was told by Mr Drumm that he needed to get a message out of confidence in the bank by saying he was "a buyer not a seller" of the bank's shares.

Anglo bosses were desperate to prevent the collapse in the price of their bank's shares that would have happened if Mr Quinn had started publicly ditching his massive holdings of the stock, the tapes show.

That's from the independent. They knew, that SQ was still buying shares in the bank in 2008 at a time when the directors knew it was going to the wall.

And in seperate news I see the Quinn group attempting fraud of their biggest glass customer. A customer who is responsible for 20% of it's business, diagio. When a batch of glass worth close to a million was returned due to quality issues, the head hunchos in Quinns decided it would be a better idea to re label the same shipment and send it back out to them rather than recyling and redoing. But diagio got wind, so now they're whole contract is in danger. These are the sort of people running the show now. People who are selling of assets like plant and machinery to try and balance books!! Paul O'Brien should have been roaded out of there ages ago.

Hang on a second. You are twisting things and ignoring context to suit your argument.

The bit in bold conflicts with Carswell's (to date un-sued) account and is inconsistent with the secretive nature of CFDs. Quinn told Anglo he had 24% at his first meeting with Fitzpatrick and Drumm. That was the first or the board they knew of it. How could they have encouraged him to do that when they were absolutely horrified when they became aware of it?

The Anglo tapes saying Quinn or Anglo should put out a message that Quinn was a 'buyer not a seller' is irrelevant. It is not the same as saying: 'Sean, you must buy more shares'.

'Putting out a message' is what people do when they are spinning or trying give given an impression that often is completely opposite to the reality. But it means nothing. The facts are that they wanted him to reduce his holding, they founds buyers (Maple 10) to help him do that and SQ bought the extra shares in 2008 despite Fitzpatrick and Drumm telling him to 'unwind' his holding.

Anglo believed that Quinn saw the share price rising but didn't connect that to his own buying and decided to buy more!

Regardless, as the Quinn family has not included Sean Quinn nor Liam McCaffrey along with the Anglo directors in their case I personally can't take it seriously.

Back to the Indo allegation  ::), can you provide another reasonably reliable source that alleges the Anglo directors encouraged Quinn directly to enter the CFDs?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on February 11, 2014, 07:15:09 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 01:20:14 PM
The maple 10 have started to give evidence now.

It's not looking good for the Anglo board or indeed the Department of Finance/ Regulator at the time. All witnesses so far seem to imply that the department of finance was well informed regarding the deals.
They would, wouldn't they ? ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 11, 2014, 07:15:09 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 01:20:14 PM
The maple 10 have started to give evidence now.

It's not looking good for the Anglo board or indeed the Department of Finance/ Regulator at the time. All witnesses so far seem to imply that the department of finance was well informed regarding the deals.
They would, wouldn't they ? ;)

I am inclined to believe there is some truth in that.

How the Regulator and the Dept. handle this trial will be very interesting. But I sincerely hope no one gets away with hiding wrongdoing behind 'we got the nod and a wink from official Ireland' defence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 07:27:35 PM
If I owned something that 'created an artificial market for the shares', as you said Sean Quinn did, I would be very worried. In fact Sean Quinn was pretty worried too, that is why he eventually went to Anglo to tell them about the CFDs. He was in big trouble, but knew that because of his CFDs - so was Anglo.

Muppet, regarding the extract above are you inferring in some way that there was something illegal in SQs CFD trades? Just to be clear, there was nt. There is a difference between creating an "artifical market" through putting out false information etc=insider trading=illegal.  What I was referring to was that SQ had potentially kept the share price artifically high through irrational demand=stupid/expensive/greedy=legal. If someone decides they are willing to pay twice what any share is worth on a whim irresepective of the underlying investment case, the price will increase. Supply and demand

The reason Sean Quinn was worried is because he had bet the farm on it, it was unravelling and he was losing a fortune.

Sean Quinn is making no "defence" as you put it. He is giving evidence, he is not on trial. The trial is not about illegal dealing in shares per se, its about a company providing unlawful financial assistance for the purchase of its own shares. None of teh Maple 10 are on trial. So your second point about manipulating the market is right, but it is Anglo who are accused of the manipulation.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 07:37:48 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 07:27:35 PM
If I owned something that 'created an artificial market for the shares', as you said Sean Quinn did, I would be very worried. In fact Sean Quinn was pretty worried too, that is why he eventually went to Anglo to tell them about the CFDs. He was in big trouble, but knew that because of his CFDs - so was Anglo.

Muppet, regarding the extract above are you inferring in some way that there was something illegal in SQs CFD trades? Just to be clear, there was nt. There is a difference between creating an "artifical market" through putting out false information etc=insider trading=illegal.  What I was referring to was that SQ had potentially kept the share price artifically high through irrational demand=stupid/expensive/greedy=legal. If someone decides they are willing to pay twice what any share is worth on a whim irresepective of the underlying investment case, the price will increase. Supply and demand

The reason Sean Quinn was worried is because he had bet the farm on it, it was unravelling and he was losing a fortune.

Sean Quinn is making no "defence" as you put it. He is giving evidence, he is not on trial. The trial is not about illegal dealing in shares per se, its about a company providing unlawful financial assistance for the purchase of its own shares. None of teh Maple 10 are on trial. So your second point about manipulating the market is right, but it is Anglo who are accused of the manipulation.

I understand this. But there are other cases going on and I pray lots more to come out of it.

Quinn, one way or another, ended up part of a transaction whereby some of the protagonists are currently on trial. And I referred to Quinn's 'testimony' not defence. (I edited that before you posted, but possibly after you had read it).

The Maple 10, the Regulator, Department Officials, Sean Quinn, some of his former executives and the young Quinns are all witnesses in this trial. That is because this is the trial of the Anglo executives. You are taking a view of this in isolation, which is fair enough, but I am viewing it in an overall context.

The Quinns have been in and out of court for years now, and indeed have already seen jail time. I seriously doubt that the Quinns are finished with the courts and vice versa. Anything that comes out in this trial could effect or even trigger future cases. I suspect the DPP will be keeping a very close eye on it.

Back to Quinn. You say he blew his money but did nothing wrong. His children appear to be alleging fraud against Anglo and others. Are you aware of the letter from McCaffrey to Anglo?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 07:51:19 PM
I assume your referring to the collateral letter? I'm only aware of what I've seen in the court reports and I'm sure that will be a key piece of evidence in future cases.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying SQ is a victim in all this (meaning the wider context of the various cases), but this case is a criminal case against the Anglo executives. Maybe it's being discussed in the wrong thread (Eurozone bailout might be more appropriate) but for whatever reason your focus seems to be on SQ rather than the actual case currently being tried?


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 08:20:01 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 07:51:19 PM
I assume your referring to the collateral letter? I'm only aware of what I've seen in the court reports and I'm sure that will be a key piece of evidence in future cases.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying SQ is a victim in all this (meaning the wider context of the various cases), but this case is a criminal case against the Anglo executives. Maybe it's being discussed in the wrong thread (Eurozone bailout might be more appropriate) but for whatever reason your focus seems to be on SQ rather than the actual case currently being tried?

This is the Quinn thread and this trial, imho, will have a big say on what happens to Quinn.

I am using quotes to save me typing this again. But here is what I wrote about that letter before.

Quote from: muppet on October 11, 2013, 05:52:09 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 11, 2013, 05:10:31 PM
The CFD's were held by SQ not the Quinn family. SQ could have went bust, and taken certain assets with him, but not the group. The Group was only tied in when Anglo got backdated Guarnatees signed by the children without legal representation.

And Anglo didn't try to save Quinn, they were putting pressure on him to take the loans and it wasn't for his benefit- in fact they were pushing him to continue to look like a "Buyer not a Seller" of Anglo shares right up to 2008.
And this was without taking into account the fact that anglo, the government at the time & the regulator knew that Anglo's books were cooked.

They're not asking you to pay for anything. They are asking for assets back that the state have taken that they don't believe they have a right to. If I had assets taken from me by someone that I don't believe owns them, I'd be asking for them back as well regardless of whether it was a tax payer or not.

Here are a few paragraphs from Anglo Republic by Simon Carswell (page 151/152).

As Anglo's share price fell, the bank continued to supply Sean Quinn with 'working-capital' facilities to enable him to meet his margin calls. The board approved the loans, and the Financial Regulator was notified.
An internal report compiled almost two years earlier shows the rapid growth of Quinn's borrowings from the bank as the value of his investment in it fell further and further. Over a six-day period around the St. Patrick's Day massacre Quinn drew down €367.5 million - an average of €60 million a day - to meet the mounting losses on his investment, according to the Anglo report........

.......On 18 March Quinn Group Chief Executive Liam McCaffrey fired off a letter to Michael O'Sullivan, the Anglo lender who managed Quinn's account at the bank, in relation to that day's €220 million draw-down. The letter was astonishing. Writing on behalf of Quinn, McCaffrey effectively signed over potential control of the Quinn Group, a business he had built up through hard graft over a thirty-year period. In return for the latest loan, Quinn agreed to hand over the share certificates in the main company at the apex of the Quinn corporate pyramid. If covered the ownership and ultimate control of his many and varied businesses........

.....'I can confirm that as additional comfort in relation to the security on this facility the Quinn family are prepared to support their personal guarantees by giving Anglo Irish Bank Corporation plc physical custody of their shares in Quinn Group ROI Ltd,' said McCaffrey in the letter to the bank.
[/b]

According to Carswell, McCaffrey appears to have offered 'additional comfort' and appears to say of the Quinns that they were 'prepared to support their personal guarantees by giving Anglo Irish.....physical custody of their shares in Quinn Group ROI Ltd'.

Here is my problem, albeit from a position of ignorance of many facts. Either the Quinn children happily and knowingly signed the personal guarantees understanding what they were doing, or they didn't. If it was the former then they will have to accept that they lost everything and be happy if that is the end of their woes. If it was the latter then, in my opinion, they should be including their father and McCaffrey in the list of defendants in their actions to get their shares back. Further to that, if they are alleging that they were somehow defrauded (are they?), then I find it hard to see how that letter doesn't take centre stage in that case.

As far as I am concerned Fitzpatrick & Quinn are two of those most responsible for forcing their nation into a bailout. And in both their cases spectacular greed, stupidity and the most incredible hubris was to blame. My very small children are likely to pay taxes on their debts.

I want to see Seanie Fitz and Sean Quinn and the others get what they deserve from the courts. Yes Fitz is the one on trial at the moment, but I am hoping this is not the last trial.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 08:36:04 PM
How is Quinn responsible in any way for forcing the bailout? Anglo was doomed no matter what SQ did (legally) on the cfds. Whatever your views on how the family reacted to the unraveling of the whole sorry mess, as I said earlier if he gambled and lost €3.2bn that's his prerogative. He had earned the right to do that by building up his empire to that value.

The fact that debt has landed on the taxpayer is not his fault. Do you blame every small business owner who defaulted on an Anglo loan for the bailout?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 08:36:04 PM
How is Quinn responsible in any way for forcing the bailout? Anglo was doomed no matter what SQ did (legally) on the cfds. Whatever your views on how the family reacted to the unraveling of the whole sorry mess, as I said earlier if he gambled and lost €3.2bn that's his prerogative. He had earned the right to do that by building up his empire to that value.

The fact that debt has landed on the taxpayer is not his fault. Do you blame every small business owner who defaulted on an Anglo loan for the bailout?

Firstly, we are paying an insurance levy already for Quinn.

Secondly, you easily dismiss Quinn's 28% CFD in Anglo as having nothing to do with our bailout. The €3.2bn debt was covered by the taxpayer. That is a fact. You might believe Quinn's testimony that Anglo shafted the poor wee innocent ordinary man, but I certainly don't. He brought the problem to them remember, not the other way round.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 08:54:29 PM
At the minute Anglo received the Quinn Group (plus multiple overseas properties) in exchange for the 2.8 Billion. So the losses on the Quinn's loans is nowhere near the value of 2.8billion that we regularly hear from the media. So if it's decided that the Quinn's can't contest their loans the taxpayer won't be on the hook for 2.8B.

I've given my views on the insurance levy previously as we'll so there's little point in me going back into that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 09:11:00 PM
I don't know enough about the insurance levy but I can't see how it caused the bailout. If the levy is due to losses In quinn insurance that strikes me as a failure in regulation.

I'm not dismissing the cfds. The problem that SQ brought to Anglo was that he had pursued a legal investment strategy that had went bad with the result that his fortune was on the line. Anglo could have turned round and said bad luck Sean and let market forces do their work. Again, not sure what he did wrong in your eyes?

for example, Joe blogs owns a house worth €100k and mortgages it to buy €100k of Anglo shares. Credit crunch happens and he's lost the lot. What has Joe done wrong?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 09:25:33 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 09:11:00 PM
I don't know enough about the insurance levy but I can't see how it caused the bailout. If the levy is due to losses In quinn insurance that strikes me as a failure in regulation.

I'm not dismissing the cfds. The problem that SQ brought to Anglo was that he had pursued a legal investment strategy that had went bad with the result that his fortune was on the line. Anglo could have turned round and said bad luck Sean and let market forces do their work. Again, not sure what he did wrong in your eyes?

for example, Joe blogs owns a house worth €100k and mortgages it to buy €100k of Anglo shares. Credit crunch happens and he's lost the lot. What has Joe done wrong?

Joe Blogs wasn't Ireland's richest man.

You seem to buy the line that Quinn approached Anglo for nothing more than a chat. Of course we have been told this chat informed them that Quinn done something that they recognised instantly would probably destroy them. And then the big bold Anglo did their thing but all of it had nothing to do with Quinn. Not his fault. They forced him to take the money that allowed him to keep his business? But it wasn't his fault that he went along with it. They forced him to sign away his, and his children's assets? But when he went along with it, none of it is his fault.

Then SS reminds us of his previous argument that the removal of Quinn from the Insurance business was all about the Regulator. But again it wasn't Sean Quinn's fault.

Then we have the kids. And that letter. But none of it is Sean Quinn's fault either.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19063419 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19063419)

The above explains it better than I can.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 09:34:29 PM
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/500m-loan-was-agreed-over-phone-within-an-hour-sean-quinn-tells-court-29997120.html (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/500m-loan-was-agreed-over-phone-within-an-hour-sean-quinn-tells-court-29997120.html)

DONAL O'DONOVAN – 11 FEBRUARY 2014

Former businessman Sean Quinn outlined how he secured a €500m loan over the phone in less than an hour from Anglo Irish Bank in December 2007.

The bank offered the loan without being asked and it was arranged directly with then chief executive David Drumm, Mr Quinn said yesterday.

That was after Sean Quinn explained to David Drumm that his then investment in Anglo Irish Bank was set to become widely known, once audited accounts for the Quinn Group were prepared.

"I rang David Drumm in the first or second week in December 2007. He asked me what it would take to sort it out. I said about €400m and he was back within the hour, and he'd give me €500m to tidy it up," Sean Quinn told the court.

"I never asked him for any money, but I was pleased that he offered me money."

The exchange was contained in evidence given by Sean Quinn in relation to his investment in so-called contracts for difference (CFDs) linked to shares in Anglo Irish Bank, and how that led him to borrow close to €2bn from Anglo Irish Bank.

The loan from the bank was made to Quinn Group, which was running low on cash because of loans it was making to the Quinn's investment company, which in turn needed the cash to meet losses on the Anglo Irish Bank share bets.

The CFD position meant the Quinn family controlled almost 30pc of Anglo Irish Bank shares by the spring of 2008, Quinn said.

CFDs are indirect investments, but the brokers that sell them buy real shares in order to protect themselves if the investor is right, and prices rise.

Quinn invested in the bank because he believed in it, he said.

"I thought it was a marvellous institution, it had grown its profits by 30pc compound over 30 years," he explained.

He even believed the investment, which led to losses of €3.2bn, was low risk because of the amount of collateral being put up at 25pc.

"We thought, we are on our own obviously, no one else thinks it, we thought we took a very conservative approach," he said.

He remained convinced of the value of the investment even after the share price went into decline, he said

"The logic in that was very clear. The share price had reduced by around 40pc, the profits had increased by 46pc in the year 2007. It was a phenomenal result.

"Where I come from those mathematics don't add up."

The fact that accounts were signed by auditors, and assurances he got that the bank was in good shape, convinced him to boost the stake, he said.

"There were brokers left right and centre talking about Anglo being the best bank in the world. I could see no reason why you would see selling shares in Anglo would be a good idea. It turned out I was wrong."

Mr Quinn said he was responsible for decisions, such as the one to invest in the Anglo Irish Bank CFDs but did not get involved in actually carrying out the transactions involved, which were done through staff at his businesses.

"I have never been involved in the administration of the business. I'm involved in spending money stupidly. I finished school at 15. I never got involved in this aspect of the business," he said.

Irish Independent
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 09:38:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 09:25:33 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 09:11:00 PM
I don't know enough about the insurance levy but I can't see how it caused the bailout. If the levy is due to losses In quinn insurance that strikes me as a failure in regulation.

I'm not dismissing the cfds. The problem that SQ brought to Anglo was that he had pursued a legal investment strategy that had went bad with the result that his fortune was on the line. Anglo could have turned round and said bad luck Sean and let market forces do their work. Again, not sure what he did wrong in your eyes?

for example, Joe blogs owns a house worth €100k and mortgages it to buy €100k of Anglo shares. Credit crunch happens and he's lost the lot. What has Joe done wrong?

Joe Blogs wasn't Ireland's richest man.

You seem to buy the line that Quinn approached Anglo for nothing more than a chat. Of course we have been told this chat informed them that Quinn done something that they recognised instantly would probably destroy them. And then the big bold Anglo did their thing but all of it had nothing to do with Quinn. Not his fault. They forced him to take the money that allowed him to keep his business? But it wasn't his fault that he went along with it. They forced him to sign away his, and his children's assets? But when he went along with it, none of it is his fault.

Then SS reminds us of his previous argument that the removal of Quinn from the Insurance business was all about the Regulator. But again it wasn't Sean Quinn's fault.

Then we have the kids. And that letter. But none of it is Sean Quinn's fault either.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19063419 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19063419)

The above explains it better than I can.

Funny I'm still waiting on the regulator to provide the legal references for what he based his decision on. Despite being challenged on it numerous times. Yet the Quinn's and PWC have provided a report WITH legal references outlining why the Regulator was wrong in relation to the cross guarantees. But as I said its pointless debating it. We've been through it already.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 09:43:14 PM
Why does it matter that SQ was Ireland's richest man? That's my point, he had the right to gamble billions because he had it. Or have you made a unilateral decision of a threshold that applies after which you need some sort of public consent to spend your money?

Could you answer two questions? In your view did SQ do anything wrong in building up his stake in Anglo? Secondly What do you think he should have done when Anglo offered him the option of unwinding his position?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 09:47:18 PM
http://www.thejournal.ie/anglo-trial-sean-quinn-1304548-Feb2014/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/anglo-trial-sean-quinn-1304548-Feb2014/)

SEAN QUINN TOLD the Financial Regulator that he had been greedy and needed to be reined in, the trial of three senior executives at Anglo Irish Bank has heard.

The Financial Regulator met with Sean Quinn in February 2008 to tell him that there were concerns about the scale of his financial problems.

According the minutes of the meeting on 28 February 2008 which were shown to the court, Quinn said that he deeply regretted the situation.

Speaking about himself in the third person, Quinn told Patrick Neary that "Sean Quinn  needed to be reined in". He said that he had been greedy  with his involvement in contracts for difference, the complex financial instruments which he had used to build up his investment in Anglo Irish Bank.

Quinn told the regulator that he had lost money before in tech stocks in 2001 and had committed to not getting involved again  but instead had invested in stocks he was familiar with, in banking and building, both of which had been badly hit by the burgeoning financial crisis.

However Quinn reiterated that he believed it would be a mistake to dispose of his holding in Anglo as the share price continued to drop as he remained optimistic that the share price would recover.

Liam McCaffrey, the former CEO of the Quinn Group who was giving evidence, agreed that it was not usual for the Financial Regulator to meet someone on their own.


The meeting came just eight days after Quinn had already met with the Financial Regulator about issues with Quinn Insurance Limited, which would eventually lead to the company being fined €3.5 million several months later.

The  meeting on 20 February was attended by seven people, including Sean Quinn and Liam McCaffrey on the Quinn side of things and Patrick Neary and Con Horan of the Financial Regulator. Minutes of the meeting say that Neary began the meeting by highlighting the seriousness of matters under consideration.

Sean Quinn apologised sincerely for the financial situation at Quinn Insurance and the problems that it was creating for the Financial Regulator, according to the minutes. He said that anything that would be told to the Regulator by Quinn Insurance from now on would be 100 per cent true.

Sean Quinn assured the financial regulator that €100 million in cash would be put into Quinn Insurance by the end of March 2008.
According to the minutes, Quinn also expressed the hope that the Financial Regulator would accommodate a company that had made a mistake and "freely admitted" that the company had made errors in its transactions.

Quinn was pressed several times during the meeting about injecting cash into the company immediately but he indicated that he would be unwilling to sell shares too quickly as he was optimistic that the price would recover.

Asked whether the Financial Regulator would have been told by anyone from Quinn that Quinn had been building up a stake in Anglo, McCaffrey answered: "No".

Quinn's name would not have appeared on a shareholding listing because of his use of Contracts for Difference, and while there had been some speculation in the media that he was building up his holding, his use of 9 different CFD providers meant that it would have been very difficult for anyone to know what his shareholding was, the court heard.


Patrick Neary said that the issue would remain a private matter between the Financial Regulator and the company, which Sean Quinn agreed with, saying that he wanted to get the matter sorted as quickly as possible, according to the minutes of the meeting.
image

Brendan Grehan SC acting for Patrick Whelan asked if McCaffrey agreed that Quinn was gambling with CFDs. "There's no other polite way of putting it," he said.

McCaffrey disagreed with the use of the word gambling, saying he preferred to refer to it as a highly leveraged derivative.

McCaffrey agreed with Grehan that he could see why the bank would be concerned as its share price fell even as Quinn's holding in the bank continued to increase, saying it was a large concentration of the ownership.

However he did not answer a question from Grehan about how having one owner of CFDs meant the person was vulnerable and  "it would be a little like a train going off the tracks".

"That calls for speculation," McCaffrey told the court. "I'm not in a position to speculate on that".

McCaffrey gave the evidence on the third day of the trial of three former senior Anglo Executives. Sean FitzPatrick of Greystones, Pat Whelan of Malahide and Willie McAteer of Auburn Villas in Dublin 6 have all pleaded not guilty to 16 charges of unlawfully providing financial assistance to individuals to buy shares in the bank.

Sean Quinn, who is in the courtroom, is likely to give evidence in the trial this afternoon.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:02:24 PM
Even with the above withdrawals that SQ used to meet the marginal calls they're solvency levels were still in line with most Irish insurance companies and in fact better than some. However it was only the regulator's decision in relation to the cross guarantees that he placed the company into administration.

QuoteTOM LYONS – 12 MAY 2013

A series of reports sent by PWC – the former auditor of Quinn Insurance Limited (QIL) – to the Financial Regulator strongly disputes whether the State was right to place the insurance group into administration.

The Financial Regulator made the decision to take control of QIL from the family of former billionaire Sean Quinn based on its belief the insurance company was insolvent.

This was, it said, because of the existence of intercompany guarantees relating to assets included in the insurance group's reserves, worth €448m for the financial years 2005-2008.

Copies of the PWC reports, however, submitted to the Financial Regulator in 2010 state that the accountants believe its audit opinions on the insurance group's accounts were "appropriate".

PWC also claims it had "no reason to believe that the existence of cross-company guarantees of any type would have any financial impact".

PWC states that it "does not agree" with the Financial Regulator's assessment that the guaranteed assets should have been excluded from QIL's reserves.

The PWC reports also show that the disputed assets were only removed from QIL's reserves "on the instruction of the Financial Regulator."

Removing the cross-guaranteed assets from the insurance company's reserves overnight made QIL insolvent, according to the Quinn family's advisers, Moore Stephens.

The London accountancy firm has produced a report for the family which backs PWC and concludes the Financial Regulator was wrong to conclude QIL was insolvent.

The Quinn family has bitterly disputed the Regulator's decision, which they believe made it impossible for them to ever repay their debts to Anglo Irish Bank.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 10:03:20 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 09:43:14 PM
Why does it matter that SQ was Ireland's richest man? That's my point, he had the right to gamble billions because he had it. Or have you made a unilateral decision of a threshold that applies after which you need some sort of public consent to spend your money?

Could you answer two questions? In your view did SQ do anything wrong in building up his stake in Anglo? Secondly What do you think he should have done when Anglo offered him the option of unwinding his position?

You are the one who started comparing Quinn with Joe Blogs. I pointed out the farce of that by stating that Quinn was Ireland's richest man. To compare how Anglo would deal with a 'small business' man, with a man who held almost 30% in shares in Anglo, and who was Ireland's richest man is imho farcical and pointless.

First question:

1) In funding his CFD gamble, the Regulator believes he had illegally used funds from QI. That is why he was removed. But don't take my opinion. Here is what Sean Quinn himself said: "Quinn Insurance made loans to a related company which amounted to €288m in May 2008 when the accounts were finalised. These loans breached insurance regulations and as a result of this the Financial Regulator has sanctioned Quinn Insurance and myself. I accept complete responsibility for this breach of regulation. http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015080.shtml (http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015080.shtml)

2) While you limit the question of wrongdoing to him 'building up his stake' in Anglo. That is hardly the whole story. That is why this case is so interesting and might shed some light on how the courts view, for example his part in the unwinding of the shares and in particular his kids case against everyone.

Second question:

Not for me to say. However I will point out that according to Carswell, Quinn first told Anglo he had built up a circa 24% stake. They were horrified and told him to unwind it. Quinn went out and bet more. It appears from the testimony of recent days that the loans were due to Quinn running low on cash and presumably thus struggling with the margin calls (see the underlined statement in the Indo article above). So much for his bet being his problem only.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

QuoteInsisting that Anglo executives were aware as far back as late 2007 that the bank was in trouble, Mr Quinn said he wouldn't have bought one share if he had similar information.

Asked how he'd feel if former Anglo chief executive David Drumm hadn't been willing to lend him money at the end of 2007, Mr Quinn replied: "I'd be a happy man today."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

Yes, there were rumours. A Sunday paper had speculated on the matter. The market is usually rife with rumours. But it was a CFD. No one knew how much he had for sure.

As for Anglo talking about 'rude health'. Did you expect a press release stated they were goosed?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 10:28:27 PM
Why is it farcical to compare SQ and Joe blogs if we are talking about principles of law? Surely they should apply equally?

Anglo told SQ to unwind the position. So what? That's not their call to make. Do you think if some multi billion fund manager was told to do something by a portfolio company but they thought they could increase their profit or reduce a loss by acting differently they would agree to it? For everyone with a pensions sake I hope they wouldn't.

It's one of the functions of being a public company, you want to access the public markets for cash you have to accept the volatility of the same markets.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:32:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

Yes, there were rumours. A Sunday paper had speculated on the matter. The market is usually rife with rumours. But it was a CFD. No one knew how much he had for sure.

As for Anglo talking about 'rude health'. Did you expect a press release stated they were goosed?
Not at all. I just would have expected them to not get involved in share support. Had they not at that stage then Quinn would have been forced to unwind his stake at that stage before the St Paddys day massacre.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 10:47:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:32:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

Yes, there were rumours. A Sunday paper had speculated on the matter. The market is usually rife with rumours. But it was a CFD. No one knew how much he had for sure.

As for Anglo talking about 'rude health'. Did you expect a press release stated they were goosed?
Not at all. I just would have expected them to not get involved in share support. Had they not at that stage then Quinn would have been forced to unwind his stake at that stage before the St Paddys day massacre.

He would probably have brought forward the St. Patrick's Day massacre then.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 10:52:19 PM
Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 10:28:27 PM
Why is it farcical to compare SQ and Joe blogs if we are talking about principles of law? Surely they should apply equally?

Anglo told SQ to unwind the position. So what? That's not their call to make. Do you think if some multi billion fund manager was told to do something by a portfolio company but they thought they could increase their profit or reduce a loss by acting differently they would agree to it? For everyone with a pensions sake I hope they wouldn't.

It's one of the functions of being a public company, you want to access the public markets for cash you have to accept the volatility of the same markets.

But we weren't talking about principles of law, were we? If you keep moving your goal posts, what it the point of trying to discuss the issue.

Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 08:36:04 PM
How is Quinn responsible in any way for forcing the bailout? Anglo was doomed no matter what SQ did (legally) on the cfds. Whatever your views on how the family reacted to the unraveling of the whole sorry mess, as I said earlier if he gambled and lost €3.2bn that's his prerogative. He had earned the right to do that by building up his empire to that value.

The fact that debt has landed on the taxpayer is not his fault. Do you blame every small business owner who defaulted on an Anglo loan for the bailout?

Like I said, "every small business owner who defaulted on an Anglo loan" wasn't a 30% shareholder in Anglo and wasn't Ireland richest man. Every small business holder hadn't 'breached regulations' - broke the law to you and me - in their insurance business either.

Quote from: TabClear on February 11, 2014, 09:11:00 PM
I don't know enough about the insurance levy but I can't see how it caused the bailout. If the levy is due to losses In quinn insurance that strikes me as a failure in regulation.

I'm not dismissing the cfds. The problem that SQ brought to Anglo was that he had pursued a legal investment strategy that had went bad with the result that his fortune was on the line. Anglo could have turned round and said bad luck Sean and let market forces do their work. Again, not sure what he did wrong in your eyes?

for example, Joe blogs owns a house worth €100k and mortgages it to buy €100k of Anglo shares. Credit crunch happens and he's lost the lot. What has Joe done wrong?

Joe will be pursued for his losses or will have to do a deal. This has nothing to do with Quinn who, for the 4th time, owned 30% of the bank. How does that compare with Joe Blogs?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 11, 2014, 11:49:29 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

QuoteInsisting that Anglo executives were aware as far back as late 2007 that the bank was in trouble, Mr Quinn said he wouldn't have bought one share if he had similar information.

Asked how he'd feel if former Anglo chief executive David Drumm hadn't been willing to lend him money at the end of 2007, Mr Quinn replied: "I'd be a happy man today."

Are you confusing meetings in Buswells?

The meeting where he revealed the 24% holding was in september 2007.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on February 12, 2014, 07:28:37 AM
I tried to quote various points you made Muppet but I'm still struggling with the quote function. but

But we weren't talking about principles of law, were we? If you keep moving your goal posts, what it the point of trying to discuss the issue.

I was talking about the law as it happens. I think what I said was what had SQ done wrong compared to Jo Blogs example. Given we are discussing an ongoing trial, your references to future trials, jail time etc I don't think this could be construed as "moving goalposts".

Joe will be pursued for his losses or will have to do a deal. This has nothing to do with Quinn who, for the 4th time, owned 30% of the bank. How does that compare with Joe Blogs?

So SQ did a deal, the deal did not address the problem so then he was pursued for his losses and bankrupted. Seems very similar to the process you advocate for Joe but for some reason you seem to think SQ deserves additional punishment (notwithstanding there may have been further actions after the loss regarding asset movements etc but as you have said, that is/was the focus of a separate action). I'm assuming this is because SQ had more money so he breached some of your thresholds? (I'm speculating of course, I do not know what is behind your reasoning as is increasingly obvious).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on February 12, 2014, 08:07:50 AM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 06:28:44 PM
haranguerer, I have dealt with that many times before, for example:


I'm referring to your saracastic comment re SQ saying he had 'dipped his toes' in CFDs. The full quote is below, its clear he said that regarding any CFDs he was involved in before Anglo, not that he regarded Anglo as 'dipping his toes' as you implied.

'He said that he had "dipped his toes" in contracts for difference, the method used to purchase the Anglo shares, but that the bank represented a whole new ball game. He said:

With Anglo, we put our head, neck and feet in.'
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 12, 2014, 09:18:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 10:47:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:32:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

Yes, there were rumours. A Sunday paper had speculated on the matter. The market is usually rife with rumours. But it was a CFD. No one knew how much he had for sure.

As for Anglo talking about 'rude health'. Did you expect a press release stated they were goosed?
Not at all. I just would have expected them to not get involved in share support. Had they not at that stage then Quinn would have been forced to unwind his stake at that stage before the St Paddys day massacre.

He would probably have brought forward the St. Patrick's Day massacre then.

Possibly to a certain extent, but Quinns were CFD's, he didn't have to look for a buyer. My understanding is that he would have been liable for his original 15% plus any drop in the share price to date from the original investment share price to close out his position. The share price may have tumbled afterwards but that wouldn't have been a concern for SQ anymore. Which is why Anglo didn't want this to happen.

Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 11:49:29 PM

Are you confusing meetings in Buswells?
The meeting where he revealed the 24% holding was in September 2007.



Again very possibly. I had originally thought prior to the case that Anglo only found out early 2008 on the CFD investment and not 2007.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 12, 2014, 05:57:57 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on February 12, 2014, 08:07:50 AM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 06:28:44 PM
haranguerer, I have dealt with that many times before, for example:


I'm referring to your saracastic comment re SQ saying he had 'dipped his toes' in CFDs. The full quote is below, its clear he said that regarding any CFDs he was involved in before Anglo, not that he regarded Anglo as 'dipping his toes' as you implied.

'He said that he had "dipped his toes" in contracts for difference, the method used to purchase the Anglo shares, but that the bank represented a whole new ball game. He said:

With Anglo, we put our head, neck and feet in.'

Your comment wasn't clear, I thought you referred to what happened before it went sour on him.

But I agree, he first said he 'dipped his toes', then later in the article it did quote him as you said.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on February 12, 2014, 06:19:01 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 12, 2014, 09:18:04 AM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 10:47:27 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:32:36 PM
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on February 11, 2014, 10:18:03 PM
What also became clear in the case is that Anglo was aware of SQ's involvement before the infamous meeting in Buswells. If Anglo hadn't offered SQ the first loans in dec 2007 for 500m then SQ would have been forced to take the hit then before the share price completely tanked in 2008. Also they were still spinning the line that the bank was in "rude health" when they were well aware the bank was in a mess.

Yes, there were rumours. A Sunday paper had speculated on the matter. The market is usually rife with rumours. But it was a CFD. No one knew how much he had for sure.

As for Anglo talking about 'rude health'. Did you expect a press release stated they were goosed?
Not at all. I just would have expected them to not get involved in share support. Had they not at that stage then Quinn would have been forced to unwind his stake at that stage before the St Paddys day massacre.

He would probably have brought forward the St. Patrick's Day massacre then.

Possibly to a certain extent, but Quinns were CFD's, he didn't have to look for a buyer. My understanding is that he would have been liable for his original 15% plus any drop in the share price to date from the original investment share price to close out his position. The share price may have tumbled afterwards but that wouldn't have been a concern for SQ anymore. Which is why Anglo didn't want this to happen.

This may have been possible. In theory he should have been able to close the CFD at the agreed price and what happened after wasn't his problem. However the testimony is fascinating because it is obvious that even as late as Easter 2008 Sean Quinn did not want to sell out. He still believed it would recover, even after the St. Patrick's Day massacre.

I agree he would probably have been better off if he tried to sell, but the evidence shows he bought more sometime after they told him to unwind, and that he didn't want to sell even when the Maple deal 10 was being constructed.

Quote
Quote from: muppet on February 11, 2014, 11:49:29 PM

Are you confusing meetings in Buswells?
The meeting where he revealed the 24% holding was in September 2007.



Again very possibly. I had originally thought prior to the case that Anglo only found out early 2008 on the CFD investment and not 2007.

SQ appeared to agree it was in September 2007, although he said it was in the Ardboyne Hotel in Navan: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/best-of-times-and-worst-of-times-for-ex-tycoon-1.1686854?page=1 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/best-of-times-and-worst-of-times-for-ex-tycoon-1.1686854?page=1)

The interesting thing for me over the last few days is to view the whole thing from the point of view of the Regulator. We tend to look at what Quinn was doing or what Anglo did. But the common denominator was the Regulator.

Quinn had a problem with a loan from one business to another. The Regulator got involved and Quinn was fined. Then something else (I forget!) happened in the Quinn Group and the Regulator got very heavy handed. But this was in 2008, which means at the same time the Regulator would have becoming aware of the CFD crisis with Anglo. The Regulator, rightly or wrongly, must have seen the two issues as inextricably linked.

My attitude to Quinn or Fitzpatrick hasn't changed, in fact I think less of Quinn the more I read his testimony, but this trial needs the Regulator in the dock. Then it would be very interesting.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 26, 2014, 11:24:13 AM
Possibility of a Buy out of the Quinn Group.

Quotegroup of businessmen from the north-west have clubbed together in a bid to buy the former Quinn Group's manufacturing operations from the receivers for around €500m.



Also in this section



€7,500,000,000 - Biggest deal in Irish business history


Central Bank to crack down on small firms breaking rules


Kerry Group banks on Far East promise as profits fall 68pc



The three businessmen have created a firm called Quinn Business Retention Company to buy the businesses of Aventas Manufacturing Group. The men, from both sides of the Border, say they have got backing from overseas finance houses for their bid as well as the "moral" support of Sean Quinn.

Aventas is the owner of the former Quinn Group's glass, plastic, packaging and radiator manufacturers.

"We are in direct discussions with the management team at Aventas and their advisers with a view to purchasing the business outright," the businessmen said in a statement yesterday.

"A community-led, locally sponsored, rescue of the business has long been seen as the only workable way forward for the business that has been a mainstay of economic well-being in the communities of the Border region for almost 40 years."

The businessmen say they have the support of many of the previous executive team, including former chief executive Liam McCaffrey and the local workforce.

The business leaders said their prime objective was to keep the former Quinn Group whole, avoiding at all costs a breakup or piecemeal sale of individual businesses.

"I decided to do what many have been saying should be done for a long time," said John McCartin, who is one of the three businessmen, a local Fine Gael councillor and the chief executive of Newtowngore Engineering in Leitrim.

LOCALLY

"We believe that the only way forward here is to keep the businesses together and locally managed."

Cllr McCartin said they had held talks with the existing management about a possible bid and could probably offer more cash for the businesses than most other bidders, because they have the backing of the former management.

The trio have not yet seen the detailed figures on how Aventas is performing, so it is impossible to put a price on any bid, Cllr McCartin said.

The two other businessmen leading the charge are Ernie Fisher, who is a former managing director of Fisher Engineering, and John (Bosco) O'Hagan, who is the owner and managing director of the Specialist Joinery Group, which sponsors the Derry GAA team.

The three men are being advised by accountant Michael McAllister.

Irish Independent
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on March 06, 2014, 01:55:45 PM
If these ignorant fcukheads don't want employment in ther area - we have plenty of space for this operation in Roscommon --

There's been a fire at the former Quinn Glass plant in Derrylin, Co Fermanagh.
Just after 10pm last night, a generator was set alight near the building along the Ballyconnell Road.
No one was injured in the arson attack on the now rebranded Aventas group.
This is the fourth attack since December on the property empire once owned by Cavan businessman Sean Quinn.
PSNI detectives are investigating reports of arson at Quinn Glass last night.
Shortly after 10pm, a generator in the area was set alight. No one is believed to have been injured during the incident.
Police believe entry was gained at the rear of the premises.
In previous incidents an oil tanker was smashed into the doors of Aventas HQ, a bus set alight, while hundreds of homes were left without phone or broadband services last month in a petrol bomb attack.
Sean Quinn has previously condemned the attacks saying those responsible were not acting in his name.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 06, 2014, 02:20:24 PM
It takes one person to throw a petrol bomb, hardly indicative of the entire population of the area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 06, 2014, 02:30:32 PM
Only takes one to start a war.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on March 06, 2014, 03:54:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on March 06, 2014, 02:20:24 PM
It takes one person to throw a petrol bomb, hardly indicative of the entire population of the area.
So it's ok then??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on March 06, 2014, 03:58:58 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on March 06, 2014, 02:20:24 PM
It takes one person to throw a petrol bomb, hardly indicative of the entire population of the area.

It takes an entire community to turn a blind eye though.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 06, 2014, 04:08:23 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on March 06, 2014, 03:58:58 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on March 06, 2014, 02:20:24 PM
It takes one person to throw a petrol bomb, hardly indicative of the entire population of the area.

It takes an entire community to turn a blind eye though.

Nonsense. Most of the community are against the attacks, and are quiet open about that. What exactly do you expect them to do? The PSNI and Gardai, can't get anywhere so how is the entire community turning a blind eye?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 06, 2014, 04:09:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 06, 2014, 03:54:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on March 06, 2014, 02:20:24 PM
It takes one person to throw a petrol bomb, hardly indicative of the entire population of the area.
So it's ok then??

Yes that's exactly what I said.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on April 09, 2014, 04:18:59 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-26956789 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-26956789)

Mission accomplished
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 09, 2014, 05:38:58 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on April 09, 2014, 04:18:59 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-26956789 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-26956789)

Mission accomplished

The Lagan Group includes Irish Asphalt.

Here is a High Court ruling involving Irish Asphalt: http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=502ee6dc-241c-41a9-b81e-e13bc63496ff (http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=502ee6dc-241c-41a9-b81e-e13bc63496ff)

The Irish High Court delivered its judgment on the liability of the providers of infill containing the mineral pyrite in James Elliot Construction Limited v Irish Asphalt Limited (High Court Record No. 2008/4767P) on 25 May 2011. In a decision of Mr Justice Charleton, the Court found that the infill material supplied by the Defendants, Irish Asphalt Limited, contained a high level of the mineral pyrite which as matter of probability caused the floors of the building built by the Plaintiff to heave upwards causing severe structural damage to the building. The Court held that due to the presence of the pyrite the infill material was not fit for its purpose. The building in question was the Ballymun Central Youth Facility, which the Plaintiff, James Elliot Construction Limited, had contracted to build. After the building was completed, cracks started to appear in the walls, which deteriorated to such an extent that the building became unsafe. The Plaintiff had to remedy the building at a cost of €1.55 million.

Other cases are pending including this one: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/company-sued-over-pyrite-in-building-product-1.1736409 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/company-sued-over-pyrite-in-building-product-1.1736409)

People are living in houses that are literally falling apart as a result of that pyrite. To date no one in the Construction Industry has taken any personal responsibility for their totally crap output.

While I obviously don't condone death threats etc, in my opinion the workers left in the Quinn Group might be better off.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 16, 2014, 12:48:37 PM
Fingers crossed this happens.

QuoteA GROUP of businessmen behind the former Quinn consortium are poised to make a groundbreaking formal offer to buy the Aventas Group within 'a matter of weeks', it can be revealed.
During a meeting held in Enniskillen this week, members from the Quinn Business Retention Company (QBRC) spoke of their confidence in stabilising and growing the former Quinn Group and how they have received widespread backing from the group's former customers and politicians on both sides of the border.
It was exactly three years ago this week that Sean Quinn lost control of the management when Anglo Irish Bank was appointed to take control of the business.
The three businessmen leading the consortium group include the former managing director of Fisher Engineering, Ernie Fisher, John McCartin, a Fine Gael councillor in Co Leitrim and John O'Hagan, managing director of the Specialist Joinery Group in Maghera, sponsors of the Derry gaelic football team.
They have received the backing from eight former senior executives in the Quinn Group, including the former group chief executive Liam McCaffrey from Enniskillen.
Mr McCaffrey, who has been instrumental in putting the bid together, stated it was "all systems go".
The group also revealed that they are able to treble the current Roof Tile sales, double a section of the building products as well as adding 50 percent to cement sales.
Mr McCaffrey also explained how the group have garnered support from communities, former customers and political parties
"It's all systems go at the minute and I would be optimistic this could work," he added.
"We are talking a matter of weeks and not months when it comes to the bid. We are very confident in what we can do and believe we can drive this business forward.
"The company (Aventas) has appointed Lazard [financial advisory firm] to deal with the disposal with any or all of the Aventas Group. They have asked for a letter to show we have the funding necessary and now we are weeks away from having that letter."
Councillor McCartin explained said the support the group has received has been overwhelming.
"It's about keeping business going and keeping it all in Derrylin," he said.
"We feel that the support we have received following the announcement has been overwhelming and it gives us a great sense of confidence that we are doing is the right thing.
"I was taken aback by the amount of people I was surrounded by who was telling me this is crucial to them."
The group explained that the proposed bidding figure has been based on their own estimations on what they consider the group to be worth.
The Aventas Group has stated they will consider any 'credible offer on its merits', and while they said that no formal proposal has been made, they are fully aware of the QBRC's interests.
Paddy Mohan (former Group Sales and Marketing Director) outlined the group's future plans: "What we have seen locally is customers who have not been buying off current management telling us they would come back if we took over.
"They (Aventas) wouldn't be having the same success as this group could have. We could double parts of that business in a short time and win back the key customers.
"It's worth more to the people here than anyone else. We can put more money on the table than anyone else
"There's excellent talent and experience and there were good ways in doing things.
"We can get that good ethos back and we can extend this business and drive and expand further afield. We have a solid footing to back up and drive this on. We would come back and turn it into something positive.
"We need to reinvigorate that and get the group back together again," he added.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: EC Unique on April 16, 2014, 01:49:08 PM
That sounds like it would be a good outcome. Local businessmen who would be interested in growing the company using local employment.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on April 16, 2014, 01:55:00 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on April 16, 2014, 01:49:08 PM
That sounds like it would be a good outcome. Local businessmen who would be interested in growing the company using local employment.

Is Kevin Lagan not a local businessman?

What scum would send someone a death threat on the morning their wife died??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 16, 2014, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: screenexile on April 16, 2014, 01:55:00 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on April 16, 2014, 01:49:08 PM
That sounds like it would be a good outcome. Local businessmen who would be interested in growing the company using local employment.

Is Kevin Lagan not a local businessman?

What scum would send someone a death threat on the morning their wife died??

Lagans have manufacturing assets of their own which could result in the closing of either plant if they were joined. That was certainly the fear with Quinn rooftiles. In addition a Lagan take over would not be good for the competitive market.

Death threats at any stage are a scummy act.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 16, 2014, 05:36:29 PM
Big shock here or maybe not.

The former chairman of Anglo Irish bank has been found not guilty of illegally supporting the bank's share price.

Sean FitzPatrick, 65, was involved in making loans to 10 wealthy customers who used the money to buy shares in the bank in 2008.

A jury found that Mr FitzPatrick's behaviour had not been illegal. Anglo collapsed in 2009, costing Irish taxpayers more than 30bn euros (£25bn).

The jury is still considering the cases of Pat Whelan and Willie McAteer.

They are accused of making loans designed to illegally prop up the bank's share price.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 17, 2014, 05:07:57 PM
Whelan and McAteer have both been found guilty of giving illegal loans to the Maple Ten.

They have been found not guilty over loans to the Quinn family.

All guilty verdicts were unanimous.

Sentencing will take place on Monday 28 April at 2pm.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on April 17, 2014, 05:58:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 16, 2014, 02:06:56 PM
Quote from: screenexile on April 16, 2014, 01:55:00 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on April 16, 2014, 01:49:08 PM
That sounds like it would be a good outcome. Local businessmen who would be interested in growing the company using local employment.

Is Kevin Lagan not a local businessman?

What scum would send someone a death threat on the morning their wife died??

Lagans have manufacturing assets of their own which could result in the closing of either plant if they were joined. That was certainly the fear with Quinn rooftiles. In addition a Lagan take over would not be good for the competitive market.

Death threats at any stage are a scummy act.

Will the local community come out and acknowledge the critical importance of these acts of terrorism and thank these scumbags for the part they played in securing jobs in the area?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 17, 2014, 09:05:15 PM
I would doubt it. Do you think they should?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 17, 2014, 09:30:04 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on April 16, 2014, 01:49:08 PM
That sounds like it would be a good outcome. Local businessmen who would be interested in growing the company using local employment.

Correct me if I'm wrong but did some of the individuals revealed to be involved in this bid not play a significant role in ensuring the Quinn Group ended up as Aventas in the first place?? ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 17, 2014, 09:49:16 PM
I think Liam McCaffrey would be the only one would would have been involved with the Anglo investments. And as far as my knowledge on it would go, he had a relatively administrative role in the process.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 17, 2014, 09:59:01 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 17, 2014, 09:49:16 PM
I think Liam McCaffrey would be the only one would would have been involved with the Anglo investments. And as far as my knowledge on it would go, he had a relatively administrative role in the process.

I note in the local papers an individual who had a key role in the insurance co is to the fore??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 17, 2014, 10:08:18 PM
Kevin lunney would have had no involvement in the Anglo dealings as far as I'm aware, so wouldn't hold much responsibility in relation to the Group being taken over.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on April 17, 2014, 10:29:52 PM
Would the fact the 2 lads were found not guilty of illegal lending to the Quinn's not put a hole in the Quinn case against Anglo??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 17, 2014, 10:35:06 PM
It'll certainly not help. Had they been guilty the Quinn's case would have been much stronger. But don't think it completely scuppers their case either. But if I was them I wouldn't be feeling confident.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 17, 2014, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 17, 2014, 10:08:18 PM
Kevin lunney would have had no involvement in the Anglo dealings as far as I'm aware, so wouldn't hold much responsibility in relation to the Group being taken over.

Yes, but did his management of the insurance co not leave a bit to be desired or was that all down to SQ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on April 18, 2014, 12:42:06 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 17, 2014, 09:05:15 PM
I would doubt it. Do you think they should?

Would be ungrateful if they didn't surely? They would have lost their livelihood if it wasn't for the "scumbags" doing the dirty work on their behalf.
Wonder of this is going to become normal behaviour?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 07:04:46 AM
Rather strange view to take on it. Do you think the RUC should have thanked the IRA for getting more over time as well?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on April 18, 2014, 07:56:03 AM
 Strange maybe to you but an ugly truth to me. They'd be out of a job if it wasn't for the gangsters looking after their (own) interests. You'd agree that to be the case? Sure you've already stated it

The answer to your poor analogy is no. Local residents weren't the targets of these boyos so very different.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 08:10:14 AM
I think you'll find there was local residents at risk when attacks were happening on the Quinn group. You seem to be equating the fact that as the outcome of the terrorist attack was beneficial to the local area that they would agree with any means necessary to achieve that outcome. As I've shown it's nonsense, much the same as asking the RUC to thank the IRA. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 09:04:35 AM
Quote from: AQMP on April 17, 2014, 11:34:23 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 17, 2014, 10:08:18 PM
Kevin lunney would have had no involvement in the Anglo dealings as far as I'm aware, so wouldn't hold much responsibility in relation to the Group being taken over.

Yes, but did his management of the insurance co not leave a bit to be desired or was that all down to SQ?

The insurance company would have been fine apart from the query over the cross guarantees. And the regulator hasn't been able to prove why he made that decision despite being asked multiple times to provide the info. The removal of the money from QIL was all down to SQ. (800M legally and 288M illegally) 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on April 18, 2014, 10:58:07 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 08:10:14 AM
I think you'll find there was local residents at risk when attacks were happening on the Quinn group. You seem to be equating the fact that as the outcome of the terrorist attack was beneficial to the local area that they would agree with any means necessary to achieve that outcome. As I've shown it's nonsense, much the same as asking the RUC to thank the IRA.

OK, a few security guards were caught in the crossfire but many in the area would no doubt believe that their threats and attacks were for the greater good?   

The intimidation and attacks were made to scare off outside interests in these businesses. As a result of achieving what they set out to do they've helped secure employment (so it would seem) in the local area. Surely the local population have these boys to thank for that regardless of how uncomfortable they might feel about it?

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lVJvx_FmGKQ/Sxv9eSsaePI/AAAAAAAACLg/pU8Nv3zDST4/s320/hot-fuzz-yarp.png)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 11:17:06 AM
Again your trying in a mealy mouthed way to imply there was support for the attacks in the local area, which there wasn't. As I've pointed out it's like getting the RUC to thank the IRA for extra over time.
It wasn't just security guards that were at risk. There were staff in the factories at the time of some of the attacks. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on April 18, 2014, 12:07:06 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 11:17:06 AM
Again your trying in a mealy mouthed way to imply there was support for the attacks in the local area, which there wasn't. As I've pointed out it's like getting the RUC to thank the IRA for extra over time.
It wasn't just security guards that were at risk. There were staff in the factories at the time of some of the attacks.

If they believed that jobs were at risk, I believe all sizable number supported the means to an end but will never ever admit to such an ugly truth. Whats mealy mouthed about that?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
That's not mealy mouthed. As you've finally came out and said it. Your posts previous to that were.

Would you support any means neccessary to protect your job?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2014, 12:32:35 PM
It'll all come out in the wash hopefully.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on April 18, 2014, 01:05:09 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
That's not mealy mouthed. As you've finally came out and said it. Your posts previous to that were.

Would you support any means necessary to protect your job?

Any? No

My "any" would stop at point that pure thuggery is deemed to be the means to protect it. Not a world I'd consciously be happy to exist in and 'benefit' from.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 01:07:45 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on April 18, 2014, 01:05:09 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
That's not mealy mouthed. As you've finally came out and said it. Your posts previous to that were.

Would you support any means necessary to protect your job?

Any? No

My "any" would stop at point that pure thuggery is deemed to be the means to protect it. Not a world I'd consciously be happy to exist in and 'benefit' from.

Exactly, so why would you think other people wouldn't be of the same opinion as you?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on April 18, 2014, 02:20:01 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 01:07:45 PM
Exactly, so why would you think other people wouldn't be of the same opinion as you?

This quote of yours in relation to a "local buy out" after Kevin Lagan received a death threat on the day of his wifes funeral. Sometimes it's what you don't say. Just feels like mission accomplished to me for those with a vested interested in the business/area

Quote from: supersarsfields on April 16, 2014, 12:48:37 PM
Fingers crossed this happens.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 02:28:20 PM
FFS, are you for real?

And just in case you missed it,

QuoteDeath threats at any stage are a scummy act.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on April 18, 2014, 02:49:21 PM
In the media savvy world we live in, all I hear is the soundbite and not the sentiment.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2014, 02:54:37 PM
In other words you've formed an opinion based on nothing because it fits in with the view you want to hold and are happy to throw it about. At least we've gotten to the bottom of that.



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: give her dixie on April 29, 2014, 05:54:16 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/mcateer-and-whelan-spared-jail-in-anglo-case-1.1777520


McAteer and Whelan spared jail in Anglo case


Judge says it would be unjust to jail men over unlawful loans to buy shares in bank


Two former directors of Anglo Irish Bank have been given the probation act for providing unlawful financial assistance to 10 businessmen in July 2008.

Judge Martin Nolan said it would be unjust to jail William McAteer and Pat Whelan given "a State agency had led them into error and illegality".

The two men are to be assessed for suitability for community service and will be back in court on July 31st.

They will be barred from acting as directors for five years. Both men showed little emotion as they stood in the dock but appeared to be relieved on hearing they would not serve a custodial sentence.

The sentence follows a 90-minute sentencing hearing this morning in which the prosecution outlined the case against Mr Whelan (52) and Mr McAteer (63) and barristers for the accused made pleas of mitigation on their behalf.

On April 17th, a jury found McAteer, a former director of finance, and former head of Irish lending Whelan guilty on 10 charges each of breaching Section 60 of the Companies Act 1963 by lending money to investors to buy shares in Anglo for a share support scheme.

The jury acquitted them on six further charges each of lending money for the same purpose to members of former billionaire businessman Sean Quinn's family. The two men could face a maximum of five years in prison.

Their co-accused, former Anglo chairman Sean FitzPatrick, was found not guilty on all 16 counts. The three men had denied all charges.

The trial centred on a deal to unwind businessman Sean Quinn's holding in Anglo. The court had heard that by July 2008 Mr Quinn's contracts for difference (CFDs) – investment products based on share price – were equivalent to more than 28 per cent of the bank's shares.

This was a serious concern for the bank as it was feared if the CFDs were unwound in an uncontrolled manner it would have a negative effect on the bank's share price.

A deal was devised which involved providing loans to 10 of the bank's customers, known as the Maple 10, to buy just over 1 per cent each of the shares underlying the CFDs with six members of the Quinn family buying 15 per cent of the shares.

The Maple 10 borrowed €45 million each while the Quinns borrowed €169 million. The deal was executed on July 14th, 2008.

Brendan Grehan SC, for Whelan, said today his client "didn't for one moment think he was involving himself in something that was unlawful, something that would find himself before a court on indictment".

He said it was "crystal clear" Whelan never sought personal gain from the deal and had acted under direction from his chief executive, "full square in the belief" that the bank's board, compliance department, legal advisor and the Financial Regulator were behind the transaction.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 29, 2014, 06:43:02 PM
What a spectacular cop out.

They were unanimously found guilty by a jury of a crime.

I am truly ashamed of our legal system at this stage.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 29, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
So ignorance is now a justifiable legal defence.
Cowboys ted, cowboys.

Am I wrong in summarising that basically the judge blamed the financial regulator?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on April 29, 2014, 08:53:52 PM
Am I right in saying the DPP can appeal the lenience of the sentence?
Also are there any charges pending against the regulator - I'm really not up to speed on it I'm afraid
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on April 29, 2014, 09:08:39 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on April 29, 2014, 08:53:52 PM
Am I right in saying the DPP can appeal the lenience of the sentence?
Also are there any charges pending against the regulator - I'm really not up to speed on it I'm afraid

The boys were prosecuted under breaches of Company Law. Neary was a public servant, he was asleep at the wheel. They can do nothing to him as I understand it. Can't even take his big fat pension. The DPP could appeal I suppose. Not sure they would have the stomach for it.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on April 29, 2014, 10:34:05 PM
Quote from: FermGael on April 29, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
So ignorance is now a justifiable legal defence.
Cowboys ted, cowboys.

THe well heeled loking after their own again. Wonder what golf club do they all belong to? >:( >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: guy crouchback on April 30, 2014, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: FermGael on April 29, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
So ignorance is now a justifiable legal defence.
Cowboys ted, cowboys.

Am I wrong in summarising that basically the judge blamed the financial regulator?

in fairness the judge was clear in his summing up to the jury the ignorance of the law could not be used as a defence. the reason for the stress on this point was that from the evidence it seemed clear that the 2 accused were at all times acting with the green light from the regulator.

now i would be the first person calling for those who broke the law and contributed to the ruination of this country be held to account and jailed, but in this case i think the judge was right.

at every turn they sought advice on what they were doing and went to the very top to get the OK for their actions. if you cant trust the financial regulator himself, in person, the top dog sitting in front of you, then what can you do. they broke the law so were found guilty but consideration has to be given to the direct and clear advice they got from the state.

the villain of this piece is the regulator.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 30, 2014, 10:08:46 AM
It'll be interesting to see what service these two boyos can provide to the community to atone for this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on April 30, 2014, 11:05:19 AM
Quote from: guy crouchback on April 30, 2014, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: FermGael on April 29, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
So ignorance is now a justifiable legal defence.
Cowboys ted, cowboys.

Am I wrong in summarising that basically the judge blamed the financial regulator?

in fairness the judge was clear in his summing up to the jury the ignorance of the law could not be used as a defence. the reason for the stress on this point was that from the evidence it seemed clear that the 2 accused were at all times acting with the green light from the regulator.

now i would be the first person calling for those who broke the law and contributed to the ruination of this country be held to account and jailed, but in this case i think the judge was right.

at every turn they sought advice on what they were doing and went to the very top to get the OK for their actions. if you cant trust the financial regulator himself, in person, the top dog sitting in front of you, then what can you do. they broke the law so were found guilty but consideration has to be given to the direct and clear advice they got from the state.

the villain of this piece is the regulator.

And he's already sailed off into the sunset, untouchable??

Brilliant bit of stuff there, its doesn't get any more brazen than that and the Irish tax payers will shrug their shoulders and move on picking up the tab for these hoors.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 30, 2014, 01:03:27 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on April 30, 2014, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: FermGael on April 29, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
So ignorance is now a justifiable legal defence.
Cowboys ted, cowboys.

Am I wrong in summarising that basically the judge blamed the financial regulator?

in fairness the judge was clear in his summing up to the jury the ignorance of the law could not be used as a defence. the reason for the stress on this point was that from the evidence it seemed clear that the 2 accused were at all times acting with the green light from the regulator.

now i would be the first person calling for those who broke the law and contributed to the ruination of this country be held to account and jailed, but in this case i think the judge was right.

at every turn they sought advice on what they were doing and went to the very top to get the OK for their actions. if you cant trust the financial regulator himself, in person, the top dog sitting in front of you, then what can you do. they broke the law so were found guilty but consideration has to be given to the direct and clear advice they got from the state.

the villain of this piece is the regulator.

I disagree, breaking the law with a nod and a wink from the Regulator, is still breaking the law.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on April 30, 2014, 01:04:32 PM
Quote from: AQMP on April 30, 2014, 10:08:46 AM
It'll be interesting to see what service these two boyos can provide to the community to atone for this.
Giving the Irish Taxpayers €64 Bn would do nicely.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 30, 2014, 01:28:26 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 30, 2014, 01:04:32 PM
Quote from: AQMP on April 30, 2014, 10:08:46 AM
It'll be interesting to see what service these two boyos can provide to the community to atone for this.
Giving the Irish Taxpayers €64 Bn would do nicely.

That'll be a hell of a lot of gardens weeded and graffiti power hosed off a lot of walls!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 02:17:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 30, 2014, 01:03:27 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on April 30, 2014, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: FermGael on April 29, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
So ignorance is now a justifiable legal defence.
Cowboys ted, cowboys.

Am I wrong in summarising that basically the judge blamed the financial regulator?

in fairness the judge was clear in his summing up to the jury the ignorance of the law could not be used as a defence. the reason for the stress on this point was that from the evidence it seemed clear that the 2 accused were at all times acting with the green light from the regulator.

now i would be the first person calling for those who broke the law and contributed to the ruination of this country be held to account and jailed, but in this case i think the judge was right.

at every turn they sought advice on what they were doing and went to the very top to get the OK for their actions. if you cant trust the financial regulator himself, in person, the top dog sitting in front of you, then what can you do. they broke the law so were found guilty but consideration has to be given to the direct and clear advice they got from the state.

the villain of this piece is the regulator.

I disagree, breaking the law with a nod and a wink from the Regulator, is still breaking the law.

That's not disagreeing, Muppet. As Guy said, they were found guilty - i.e. they broke the law with not just a nod and a wink, as you say, but the clear approval, even encouragement, of the primary authority that regulates these matters. Ignorance of the law, or having received consent to break the law is not a defence, but it can be a mitigating consideration in sentencing.

It's hard to disagree with the judge's obvious belief that you can't have one arm of the state encouraging people to undertake a particular enterprise and another arm of the state jailing them for it. Neary literally gave the lads their "get out of jail" card.

By the way, what is the basis for the consensus that Neary can't be prosecuted? It seems to me there's a prima facie case of conspiracy to break the law. Or is there a crime of dereliction of duty? I can't imagine a more open-and-shut case if there is. Apart from that, what's to stop a civil action against him – and why not join the whole Anglo crew, the Quinns, the Central Bank and the mandarins in Finance in it as well?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on April 30, 2014, 02:23:05 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 02:17:46 PM
That's not disagreeing, Muppet. As Guy said, they were found guilty - i.e. they broke the law with not just a nod and a wink, as you say, but the clear approval, even encouragement, of the primary authority that regulates these matters. Ignorance of the law, or having received consent to break the law is not a defence, but it can be a mitigating consideration in sentencing.

Since when did 'mitigation' mean 'no punishment at all'? Because that is what is happening here. As AQMP alludes to, there is no amount of community service these guys can perform that will compensate society for their criminality. Where is the deterrent?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 30, 2014, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 02:17:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 30, 2014, 01:03:27 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on April 30, 2014, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: FermGael on April 29, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
So ignorance is now a justifiable legal defence.
Cowboys ted, cowboys.

Am I wrong in summarising that basically the judge blamed the financial regulator?

in fairness the judge was clear in his summing up to the jury the ignorance of the law could not be used as a defence. the reason for the stress on this point was that from the evidence it seemed clear that the 2 accused were at all times acting with the green light from the regulator.

now i would be the first person calling for those who broke the law and contributed to the ruination of this country be held to account and jailed, but in this case i think the judge was right.

at every turn they sought advice on what they were doing and went to the very top to get the OK for their actions. if you cant trust the financial regulator himself, in person, the top dog sitting in front of you, then what can you do. they broke the law so were found guilty but consideration has to be given to the direct and clear advice they got from the state.

the villain of this piece is the regulator.

I disagree, breaking the law with a nod and a wink from the Regulator, is still breaking the law.

That's not disagreeing, Muppet. As Guy said, they were found guilty - i.e. they broke the law with not just a nod and a wink, as you say, but the clear approval, even encouragement, of the primary authority that regulates these matters. Ignorance of the law, or having received consent to break the law is not a defence, but it can be a mitigating consideration in sentencing.

It's hard to disagree with the judge's obvious belief that you can't have one arm of the state encouraging people to undertake a particular enterprise and another arm of the state jailing them for it. Neary literally gave the lads their "get out of jail" card.

By the way, what is the basis for the consensus that Neary can't be prosecuted? It seems to me there's a prima facie case of conspiracy to break the law. Or is there a crime of dereliction of duty? I can't imagine a more open-and-shut case if there is. Apart from that, what's to stop a civil action against him – and why not join the whole Anglo crew, the Quinns, the Central Bank and the mandarins in Finance in it as well?

This is crazy Hardy. On the one hand you are arguing for no sentence for these men because the Financial Regulator's knowledge of the events somehow mitigates their law breaking, in the eyes of the law. i.e He has the authority to decide whether or not something is a crime (which he obviously doesn't) thus making it somewhat lesser of a crime.

But on the other you want to prosecute the Financial Regulator presumably for his contribution to such a crime. Either he is omnipotent and it is not a crime or he isn't omnipotent, in which case everyone guilty of the crime deserves to be held responsible for their actions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 02:47:34 PM
Quote from: deiseach on April 30, 2014, 02:23:05 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 02:17:46 PM
That's not disagreeing, Muppet. As Guy said, they were found guilty - i.e. they broke the law with not just a nod and a wink, as you say, but the clear approval, even encouragement, of the primary authority that regulates these matters. Ignorance of the law, or having received consent to break the law is not a defence, but it can be a mitigating consideration in sentencing.

Since when did 'mitigation' mean 'no punishment at all'? Because that is what is happening here. As AQMP alludes to, there is no amount of community service these guys can perform that will compensate society for their criminality. Where is the deterrent?

I'm simply pointing out the separation between the decision on guilt and the choice of sentence. The judge could have jailed them regardless and NOBODY would have raised an objection - which is probably the consideration that should give us pause and make us reflect on lynch mobs. Would it really have been justice for the state to deprive someone of their liberty for an action they were "led into" by the same state? I don't have any sympathy for these lads and I wouldn't have lost a wink of sleep had they got five years, but would I have been right?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AZOffaly on April 30, 2014, 02:51:51 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on April 30, 2014, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: FermGael on April 29, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
So ignorance is now a justifiable legal defence.
Cowboys ted, cowboys.

Am I wrong in summarising that basically the judge blamed the financial regulator?

in fairness the judge was clear in his summing up to the jury the ignorance of the law could not be used as a defence. the reason for the stress on this point was that from the evidence it seemed clear that the 2 accused were at all times acting with the green light from the regulator.

now i would be the first person calling for those who broke the law and contributed to the ruination of this country be held to account and jailed, but in this case i think the judge was right.

at every turn they sought advice on what they were doing and went to the very top to get the OK for their actions. if you cant trust the financial regulator himself, in person, the top dog sitting in front of you, then what can you do. they broke the law so were found guilty but consideration has to be given to the direct and clear advice they got from the state.

the villain of this piece is the regulator.

Just like Creggan hurlers :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 02:53:43 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 30, 2014, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 02:17:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 30, 2014, 01:03:27 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on April 30, 2014, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: FermGael on April 29, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
So ignorance is now a justifiable legal defence.
Cowboys ted, cowboys.

Am I wrong in summarising that basically the judge blamed the financial regulator?

in fairness the judge was clear in his summing up to the jury the ignorance of the law could not be used as a defence. the reason for the stress on this point was that from the evidence it seemed clear that the 2 accused were at all times acting with the green light from the regulator.

now i would be the first person calling for those who broke the law and contributed to the ruination of this country be held to account and jailed, but in this case i think the judge was right.

at every turn they sought advice on what they were doing and went to the very top to get the OK for their actions. if you cant trust the financial regulator himself, in person, the top dog sitting in front of you, then what can you do. they broke the law so were found guilty but consideration has to be given to the direct and clear advice they got from the state.

the villain of this piece is the regulator.

I disagree, breaking the law with a nod and a wink from the Regulator, is still breaking the law.

That's not disagreeing, Muppet. As Guy said, they were found guilty - i.e. they broke the law with not just a nod and a wink, as you say, but the clear approval, even encouragement, of the primary authority that regulates these matters. Ignorance of the law, or having received consent to break the law is not a defence, but it can be a mitigating consideration in sentencing.

It's hard to disagree with the judge's obvious belief that you can't have one arm of the state encouraging people to undertake a particular enterprise and another arm of the state jailing them for it. Neary literally gave the lads their "get out of jail" card.

By the way, what is the basis for the consensus that Neary can't be prosecuted? It seems to me there's a prima facie case of conspiracy to break the law. Or is there a crime of dereliction of duty? I can't imagine a more open-and-shut case if there is. Apart from that, what's to stop a civil action against him – and why not join the whole Anglo crew, the Quinns, the Central Bank and the mandarins in Finance in it as well?

This is crazy Hardy. On the one hand you are arguing for no sentence for these men because the Financial Regulator's knowledge of the events somehow mitigates their law breaking, in the eyes of the law. i.e He has the authority to decide whether or not something is a crime (which he obviously doesn't) thus making it somewhat lesser of a crime.

But on the other you want to prosecute the Financial Regulator presumably for his contribution to such a crime. Either he is omnipotent and it is not a crime or he isn't omnipotent, in which case everyone guilty of the crime deserves to be held responsible for their actions.

You're probably right about "crazy". It's hard to pick out black and white in this whole grey mist of chicanery. I'm not really "arguing for no sentence". It's more that I see the judge's point and, as I said to Deiseach, while nobody can avoid the full rigour of the law for being led into wrongdoing by an individual or organisation, I think it's different if the state leads them into it and then tries to jail them for it. It's probably that they should be in jail, but the state screwed up and made it impossible to jail them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hereiam on April 30, 2014, 02:54:16 PM
Where is the out cry from the general public down south. People don't seem to be bothered that these people are getting off scot free.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 30, 2014, 03:04:06 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 02:53:43 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 30, 2014, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 02:17:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on April 30, 2014, 01:03:27 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on April 30, 2014, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: FermGael on April 29, 2014, 07:15:25 PM
So ignorance is now a justifiable legal defence.
Cowboys ted, cowboys.

Am I wrong in summarising that basically the judge blamed the financial regulator?

in fairness the judge was clear in his summing up to the jury the ignorance of the law could not be used as a defence. the reason for the stress on this point was that from the evidence it seemed clear that the 2 accused were at all times acting with the green light from the regulator.

now i would be the first person calling for those who broke the law and contributed to the ruination of this country be held to account and jailed, but in this case i think the judge was right.

at every turn they sought advice on what they were doing and went to the very top to get the OK for their actions. if you cant trust the financial regulator himself, in person, the top dog sitting in front of you, then what can you do. they broke the law so were found guilty but consideration has to be given to the direct and clear advice they got from the state.

the villain of this piece is the regulator.

I disagree, breaking the law with a nod and a wink from the Regulator, is still breaking the law.

That's not disagreeing, Muppet. As Guy said, they were found guilty - i.e. they broke the law with not just a nod and a wink, as you say, but the clear approval, even encouragement, of the primary authority that regulates these matters. Ignorance of the law, or having received consent to break the law is not a defence, but it can be a mitigating consideration in sentencing.

It's hard to disagree with the judge's obvious belief that you can't have one arm of the state encouraging people to undertake a particular enterprise and another arm of the state jailing them for it. Neary literally gave the lads their "get out of jail" card.

By the way, what is the basis for the consensus that Neary can't be prosecuted? It seems to me there's a prima facie case of conspiracy to break the law. Or is there a crime of dereliction of duty? I can't imagine a more open-and-shut case if there is. Apart from that, what's to stop a civil action against him – and why not join the whole Anglo crew, the Quinns, the Central Bank and the mandarins in Finance in it as well?

This is crazy Hardy. On the one hand you are arguing for no sentence for these men because the Financial Regulator's knowledge of the events somehow mitigates their law breaking, in the eyes of the law. i.e He has the authority to decide whether or not something is a crime (which he obviously doesn't) thus making it somewhat lesser of a crime.

But on the other you want to prosecute the Financial Regulator presumably for his contribution to such a crime. Either he is omnipotent and it is not a crime or he isn't omnipotent, in which case everyone guilty of the crime deserves to be held responsible for their actions.

You're probably right about "crazy". It's hard to pick out black and white in this whole grey mist of chicanery. I'm not really "arguing for no sentence". It's more that I see the judge's point and, as I said to Deiseach, while nobody can avoid the full rigour of the law for being led into wrongdoing by an individual or organisation, I think it's different if the state leads them into it and then tries to jail them for it. It's probably that they should be in jail, but the state screwed up and made it impossible to jail them.

Just one more point. You mentioned early that the State led them into the action. I may be wrong but I don't think that was the case. They certainly let the State know what they were doing, but I don't think the State directed them of pushed them or instructed them in any way.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 03:05:31 PM
I'm quoting the judge (as far as I remember).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on April 30, 2014, 03:24:47 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 02:47:34 PM
I'm simply pointing out the separation between the decision on guilt and the choice of sentence. The judge could have jailed them regardless and NOBODY would have raised an objection - which is probably the consideration that should give us pause and make us reflect on lynch mobs. Would it really have been justice for the state to deprive someone of their liberty for an action they were "led into" by the same state? I don't have any sympathy for these lads and I wouldn't have lost a wink of sleep had they got five years, but would I have been right?

I think you would have been right. What we have here is a judge trotting out the mantra that ignorance of the law is no excuse then proceeding to give chapter and verse on why, in this case, ignorance of the law is an excuse. In my opinion it's a quite disgraceful decision, and saying as much does not equate to lynch law.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 30, 2014, 03:38:13 PM
Fair enough. It's a matter of opinion as to whether the decision is disgraceful but, from the commentary I've seen, his separation of judgement from sentencing in applying the "ignorance of the law" principle is at least allowable, if not indeed how it's meant to be done. You can't allow ignorance of the law as a defence, but you can consider it in your selection of punishment.

It is a disgrace that the best the state has done so far, after six years, is to rap the knuckles of a pair of relatively lowly foot soldiers, bring charges against the godfather that wouldn't stick, allow his consiglieri to skip the jurisdiction, not bother to apply for his extradition, promote some of the mandarins who should at least be questioned about collusion and pension off others.

I gather there are other charges pending against Seanie. I can't remember what they are, but his defence of "I wasn't involved day to day at that stage" seems to hold water in the courts.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 30, 2014, 04:56:12 PM
These laws are supposed to protect the market from abuse.

These men were qualified to hold senior position in a bank. The papers refer to 'obscure company law' but if I knew share support schemes were illegal I would say top bankers knew.

They were found guilty and the reality is that the market was abused by this transaction. The fact that a lot of people knew about it, to me is only relevant in the sense that there should be more prosecutions. It doesn't lessen the crime.

I am still disgusted.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on May 30, 2014, 10:40:56 PM
IBRC told of alleged hidden Quinn assets worth €500m:

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/ibrc-told-of-alleged-hidden-quinn-assets-worth-500m-1.1815111
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/quinn-familys-gold-informants-claim-have-details-of-substantial-assets-not-disclosed-30316997.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on July 08, 2014, 10:40:42 AM
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/manufacturing/ex-quinn-executives-to-buy-two-key-units-of-manufacturing-group-1.1859153

Former Quinn executives in buyout of part of Aventas

A consortium of former senior executives in the Quinn Group and a group of Northwest businessmen have teamed up with Endless LLP, a UK private equity house, to buy two key units of the manufacturing arm of the business, now called the Aventas Group.  The deal, which is close to being closed, will see the consortium called the Quinn Business Retention Company (QBRC) and Endless acquire its packaging and construction industry supplies (CIS) divisions for an undisclosed sum. The two businesses employ 650 people in the Derrylin / Ballyconnell area of the border.

Aventas will continue to operate the former Quinn Group's glass business as well as its plastics and radiators divisions.
A new name for the two acquired businesses has not been decided but Liam McCaffrey, former chief executive of the Quinn Group, will lead the new business.  Eight former senior executives of the Quinn Group are involved in the acquisition including former group development director Kevin Lunney, former group finance director Dara O'Reilly, and former radiator division chief executive Denis Doogan.

The three local businessmen leading the consortium, called the Quinn Business Retention Company (QBRC), are John McCartin, a Fine Gael councillor who leads Newtowngore Engineering Ltd, John "Bosco" O'Hagan, managing director of theSpecialist Joinery Group, and Ernie Fisher, former managing director of Fisher Engineering Ltd. The consortium has said that group founder Sean Quinn, the former billionaire, is not involved in its bid.

Endless LLP has an investment portfolio with a combined turnover of € 1 billion with 7000 employees. It has 30 investments including Crown, the branded painter maker and distributor and St Neots Packaging, a paperboard and fastfoods manufacturing company among others. In a statement QBRC said it was "pleased to announce that it has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with Aventas Manufacturing Group regarding the potential acquisition of Quinn Packaging Limited and the Construction Industry Supply businesses of Aventas."  "These businesses are based mainly in the Derrylin, Co Fermanagh/Ballyconnell, Co Cavan region and as such are very important to the local economy. We look forward to working with Aventas both during due diligence and moving forward following completion."  "We appreciate the support that we have received from many quarters in our endeavours since we disclosed our interest in acquiring these businesses. In particular, we would like to acknowledge the support from the local community and our partners, Endless LLP, who we believe have the expertise to assist us in developing the business. We trust that we can repay their confidence by successfully concluding this transaction."  "We are delighted with the prospect of returning to these businesses and continuing the tradition of growth and development established by the Quinn Group and its workforce over the last four decades," it added.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2014, 11:03:50 AM
Quinn Radiators sold to RHP Bidco (Barlo's Tony Mullins)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on October 15, 2014, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 15, 2014, 11:03:50 AM
Quinn Radiators sold to RHP Bidco (Barlo's Tony Mullins)

Any idea of the price? Quinn paid €80m+ 10 years ago and expanded it significantly I presume?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 15, 2014, 04:10:46 PM
Haven't heard the final price yet. Expanded significantly with the new factory in New port but I'm sure the recession and drop of the building trade wouldn't have helped.
Mullins will be happy considering Quinn out bidded him the last time.
Can't see it being good news for the office staff in Ballyconnell as I'm sure operations will be centralised now, so I'm sure the jobs in Ballyconnell will go.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on October 18, 2014, 01:40:07 PM
€25m

Good enough value seeing as it was bought in 2004 for €87m.

Another part of the empire built by businessman Seán Quinn has been sold in a deal believed to be worth in the region of €25m.

Quinn Radiators, part of the business interests of the once-wealthiest man in Ireland, have been sold to RHP Bidco, chaired by Tony Mullins, the former chief executive of plastics and radiator group Barlo.

Barlo was bought by the Quinn Group in 2004 in a deal worth about £70m (€87m).

RHP Bidco has acquired the business from Aventas Manufacturing Group — the firm in control of the former Quinn manufacturing group.

Aventas chief executive Paul O'Brien said the sale was part of the group's ongoing attempts to realise value for its investors.

"This sale of Quinn Radiators is a first step in realising value for Aventas Group investors. We are pleased to have sold our radiators business to RHP Bidco and we wish Tony Mullins and his team every success in the future development of the business," said Mr O'Brien.

The Quinn Radiators manufacturing plant is based in Newport, Wales, and has a significant market presence in the UK, Ireland, France, Netherlands, and Belgium.

It employs about 290 people in Wales, 20 in Belgium, and 16 in Ireland. The company posted revenues of about £50m (€62m) last year.

RHP Bidco director David Kerr, who will take over as chief executive of Quinn Radiators, said: "We are very pleased to have completed this transaction and look forward to working with staff and suppliers to ensure we continue to provide excellent service to our customers with a top quality product."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on October 18, 2014, 07:16:13 PM
Is there a chance the heavy's that were active a few months ago might carry out some intimatadatory acts in the case of this sale.....and if not why not?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 10, 2014, 01:28:28 PM
Not great news for Anglo. How do you lose original share pledges? Would these not be classed a pretty important documents.

QuoteFamily members of businessman Seán Quinn have been told that the former Anglo Irish Bank has been unable to locate 135 original documents, including facility letters for loans of over €1 billion.

In a letter on October 30th to the Quinns, who are suing the bank which is now in liquidation over alleged illegal lending of over €2 billion, lawyers for the former bank McCann FitzGerald say they have "not yet located" 135 documents and that "efforts to locate the documents continue".

Missing documents and copies of original documents are key to the family's proceedings, as they claim that key documents were falsely described, backdated or were not shown to them in full before they borrowed vast sums from Anglo in order to illegally support the bank's own share price.

Among the missing documents identified by McCann FitzGerald are facility letters and share pledges relating to the Holiday Inn Hotel in Nottingham, which was formerly owned by Aoife Quinn. The Quinns contend that the bank should not have been able to seize control of this hotel in 2011 if they did not have the original loan documents. Original documents relating to dozens of loans to various members of the Quinn family have also not been found.

The Quinns have also discovered a memorandum sent by Anglo to the Financial Regulator on February 25th, 2009, called "Information request relating to the Seán Quinn family loans and the unwinding of the CFD [contract for difference]".

This states that Anglo sent the regulator 11 appendices along with its four-page memorandum setting out what went on. The Quinns want these appendices as they believe they will provide an almost real- time version of what occurred that was prepared without being given full legal consideration. The former Anglo says it cannot locate these.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on November 10, 2014, 01:38:00 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2014, 01:28:28 PM
Not great news for Anglo. How do you lose original share pledges? Would these not be classed a pretty important documents.

QuoteFamily members of businessman Seán Quinn have been told that the former Anglo Irish Bank has been unable to locate 135 original documents, including facility letters for loans of over €1 billion.

In a letter on October 30th to the Quinns, who are suing the bank which is now in liquidation over alleged illegal lending of over €2 billion, lawyers for the former bank McCann FitzGerald say they have "not yet located" 135 documents and that "efforts to locate the documents continue".

Missing documents and copies of original documents are key to the family's proceedings, as they claim that key documents were falsely described, backdated or were not shown to them in full before they borrowed vast sums from Anglo in order to illegally support the bank's own share price.

Among the missing documents identified by McCann FitzGerald are facility letters and share pledges relating to the Holiday Inn Hotel in Nottingham, which was formerly owned by Aoife Quinn. The Quinns contend that the bank should not have been able to seize control of this hotel in 2011 if they did not have the original loan documents. Original documents relating to dozens of loans to various members of the Quinn family have also not been found.

The Quinns have also discovered a memorandum sent by Anglo to the Financial Regulator on February 25th, 2009, called "Information request relating to the Seán Quinn family loans and the unwinding of the CFD [contract for difference]".

This states that Anglo sent the regulator 11 appendices along with its four-page memorandum setting out what went on. The Quinns want these appendices as they believe they will provide an almost real- time version of what occurred that was prepared without being given full legal consideration. The former Anglo says it cannot locate these.

They would I'm sure.

But it also smacks of rolling the discovery dice and hoping something turns up (or not) and then basing your argument on it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 10, 2014, 01:41:50 PM
I don't think so Muppet. The Quinns had maintained from Day one that Anglo didn't have the correct paperwork. I've mentioned it a few times on here over the last couple of years. And now when it's coming to the crunch and Anglo are required by law to present it, they can't. Hardly the Quinns chancing their arm. They've been saying this since the start.
And it puts Anglo on a sticky wicket now if they can't provide these.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on November 10, 2014, 02:03:37 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 10, 2014, 01:38:00 PM

They would I'm sure.

But it also smacks of rolling the discovery dice and hoping something turns up (or not) and then basing your argument on it.

Sure. They based their case on the hope that Anglo may have lost that correspondence with them. And what a stroke of luck!

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on November 10, 2014, 02:08:20 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2014, 01:41:50 PM
I don't think so Muppet. The Quinns had maintained from Day one that Anglo didn't have the correct paperwork. I've mentioned it a few times on here over the last couple of years. And now when it's coming to the crunch and Anglo are required by law to present it, they can't. Hardly the Quinns chancing their arm. They've been saying this since the start.
And it puts Anglo on a sticky wicket now if they can't provide these.

Believe it or not, there is a massive volume of missing paperwork with all of the banks dating back to the boom. So far I have yet to hear of anyone walking away scott-free though. I also recall the letter from McCaffrey (?) on behalf of Sean Quinn that is now in the public domain. That would be hard to dispute.

PS I suspect my owner mortgage provider doesn't have the paperwork for my mortgage. I have asked a few questions to explore this and they seem to struggle to answer. But I don't think I will walk away without owing a cent. The courts don't seem work like that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 10, 2014, 02:41:13 PM
I don't know bout the south but there are many cases of people taking banks/ credit cards to get debts written of if the lender doesn't have correct Loan agreement on file. They have tighten it lately I believe, but the lender still needs to be able to provide some sort of loan agreement.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on November 28, 2014, 08:08:41 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/judge-rules-against-quinns-on-anglo-disclosure-1.2017953 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/judge-rules-against-quinns-on-anglo-disclosure-1.2017953)

Members of bankrupt businessman Seán Quinn's family are not entitled to better disclosure of documents and materials by a bank they are suing over the alleged unlawful issuing of €2.3 billion in loans to family companies, a High Court judge has ruled.

The Quinns had claimed the system of revealing the material, including the contents of phone calls to the former Anglo Irish Bank, was deficient. This meant they could have no confidence in the overall process of disclosure being provided in advance of their legal action, they said.

Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (IBRC), Anglo's successor, disputed their claims, saying the cost of going through material for the purpose of discovery in advance of the case was already €1.55 million.

Mr Quinn's wife, Patricia, and the couple's five children are suing IBRC and its special liquidator, Kieran Wallace. They allege that Anglo unlawfully issued the loans during 2007 and 2008. Mr Quinn and former senior Quinn Group executives Dara O'Reilly and Liam McCaffrey are third parties in the case.

On Thursday, Ms Justice Caroline Costello ruled that IBRC had made "a conscientious attempt" to comply with a July 2012 High Court order for full discovery of materials.

No wilful refusal
While there were errors and omissions, IBRC had corrected those, Ms Justice Costello said, and it was very far from being the case that the bank was endeavouring to avoid giving discovery or that there was a wilful refusal to provide information.

Karyn Harty, a solicitor for IBRC, stated that it had cost €600,000 alone to retrieve and review 18,000 recordings and that it would not be feasible to review some 2.1 million calls for a two-year period suggested by the Quinns, the judge said.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 22, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
He's back.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30573251
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on December 22, 2014, 11:09:41 AM
He is indeed.
What a surprise
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on December 22, 2014, 01:35:08 PM
Hopefully the companies can return to some sense of normality for the sake of the majority of the workers.  While I'm sure there will be plenty of debate about  Sean Quinn's role, at least it should give more certainty going forward that can only help to protect employment in the area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bennydorano on December 24, 2014, 02:06:49 PM
Judging by today's Irish News the man certainly engenders loyalty amongst his staff, he must have done some things right over the years.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on December 25, 2014, 07:28:17 AM
Quote from: orangeman on December 22, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
He's back.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30573251

Super! Let's go!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on December 25, 2014, 10:42:02 PM
Maybe now this great Irish man and his superfan Leitrim TDs will alleviate the need for other Irishmen and women to use food banks by returning to the state the money he owes and can liquidise from assets >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 25, 2014, 11:02:36 PM
Or he could count the number of families he helped with employment in the local area for 40 years and the millions of taxes that created.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 25, 2014, 11:07:34 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 25, 2014, 11:02:36 PM
Or he could count the number of families he helped with employment in the local area for 40 years and the millions of taxes that created.
Yes, helping families by local employment was his primary motivation... Mother Teresa eat your heart out. He should be breaking rocks in a ball and chain.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 25, 2014, 11:11:00 PM
Don't think he'd claim to be mother Teresa. But he's done a lot of good for the local area and his workers whether you like it or not. I know better than most as I was one of them. Maybe that's why there was such wide spread support for him by his workers.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 25, 2014, 11:52:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 25, 2014, 11:11:00 PM
Don't think he'd claim to be mother Teresa. But he's done a lot of good for the local area and his workers whether you like it or not. I know better than most as I was one of them. Maybe that's why there was such wide spread support for him by his workers.
If a weekly wage helps you overlook all the shit he has been up to, then more power to your elbow.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 12:05:56 AM
A weekly wage no, but I see being a creator of wealth for yourself and up to 6000 odd people stretching over 40 years, setting up from scratch one of the biggest companies in the country in an employment black spot as a pretty big deal. If you don't valued that because of the last few years then so be it. But let's not pretend the state didn't have it's own hand in the last few years.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on December 26, 2014, 12:14:52 AM
That's like praising the Yorkshire Ripper for all the benefits his truck deliveries brought to people prior to his apprehension.Throw in undertakers and police overtime as well,why don't you?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 12:16:11 AM
Yes Tony, that's exactly what it's like.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on December 26, 2014, 12:17:43 AM
There is no doubt that Quinn did enormous good for Fermanagh/Cavan. But he was happy to gamble all of that, when he could simply have gambled part of his worth and not place the jobs along the Erne in jeopardy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 26, 2014, 12:21:37 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 12:05:56 AM
A weekly wage no, but I see being a creator of wealth for yourself and up to 6000 odd people stretching over 40 years, setting up from scratch one of the biggest companies in the country in an employment black spot as a pretty big deal. If you don't valued that because of the last few years then so be it. But let's not pretend the state didn't have it's own hand in the last few years.
;D He was a great fella up until he wasn't a great fella. Like most criminals then. Try again tomorrow.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 12:29:13 AM
So the minute you do something wrong your automatically a bad person regardless of what went before? You must be Mother Teresa alright so (Or a bad person obviously as there doesn't seem to be an in between)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on December 26, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
The gamble can be forgiven.Egotism and avarice are sadly all too common traits.The ongoing deliberate concealment of assets ,the effective robbery of the Irish state and people is the crime (we'll not mention on the run nephews).Until Mr Quinn puts this right, which he can do at any time,he will not recover his reputation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 26, 2014, 08:53:05 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 12:29:13 AM
So the minute you do something wrong your automatically a bad person regardless of what went before? You must be Mother Teresa alright so (Or a bad person obviously as there doesn't seem to be an in between)

Mother Theresa's hardly an example of good people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65JxnUW7Wk4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65JxnUW7Wk4)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 26, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
The gamble can be forgiven.Egotism and avarice are sadly all too common traits.The ongoing deliberate concealment of assets ,the effective robbery of the Irish state and people is the crime (we'll not mention on the run nephews).Until Mr Quinn puts this right, which he can do at any time,he will not recover his reputation.
The Irish state may well have to pay compensation to the Quinn family regarding their actions over the assets. Ownership of the assets is still disputed. Both sides were playing dirty and there's a case against the State starting now in Feb 2015. Regarding his reputation, that's your opinion and your entitled to it. But it's not shared by everyone.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 10:14:24 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 26, 2014, 08:53:05 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 12:29:13 AM
So the minute you do something wrong your automatically a bad person regardless of what went before? You must be Mother Teresa alright so (Or a bad person obviously as there doesn't seem to be an in between)

Mother Theresa's hardly an example of good people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65JxnUW7Wk4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65JxnUW7Wk4)
Aye I know, it was just in reply to Tony's (Baloney) earlier comment.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on December 26, 2014, 10:54:05 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 26, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
The gamble can be forgiven.Egotism and avarice are sadly all too common traits.The ongoing deliberate concealment of assets ,the effective robbery of the Irish state and people is the crime (we'll not mention on the run nephews).Until Mr Quinn puts this right, which he can do at any time,he will not recover his reputation.
The Irish state may well have to pay compensation to the Quinn family regarding their actions over the assets. Ownership of the assets is still disputed. Both sides were playing dirty and there's a case against the State starting now in Feb 2015. Regarding his reputation, that's your opinion and your entitled to it. But it's not shared by everyone.
The irish Geovernments
bailed The banks by mortgaging a generation of taxpayers money. Sensible young people fled. 
How do we have the time to talk about Quinn?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on December 26, 2014, 11:55:56 AM
If the likes of Quinn had paid back their loans the Irish government wouldn't have had to bail out the banks.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on December 26, 2014, 12:18:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 26, 2014, 11:55:56 AM
If the likes of Quinn had paid back their loans the Irish government wouldn't have had to bail out the banks.

Quinn owed the banks, a foolish government guaranteed the banks loans and saddled the tax payer with it. Quinn may be guilty of breaking the law and a whole host of other things but its not his fault that FF did what they did and fucked the whole country over.

Anyway, hopefully Quinn and this new group can get back to making the group grow again and secure all the jobs that are still in the area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on December 26, 2014, 12:49:22 PM
The person who started the fire is responsible for the water damage in putting out the fire, even if you think the fire brigade lost the run of themselves.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 01:40:21 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 26, 2014, 11:55:56 AM
If the likes of Quinn had paid back their loans the Irish government wouldn't have had to bail out the banks.

Anglo should never had issued the loans. In doing so they took part in market malmulipation. And the Irish state knew full well what was happening. The loans were issued for Anglos benefit not anyone's else.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on December 26, 2014, 03:02:19 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 26, 2014, 12:49:22 PM
The person who started the fire is responsible for the water damage in putting out the fire, even if you think the fire brigade lost the run of themselves.

To continue your analogy, the fire brigade came and sprayed petrol on the fire and burned the whole town town down.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on December 26, 2014, 04:27:59 PM
The bank guarantee may have been more than was needed, but something like it was needed and did put out the fire.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 27, 2014, 04:17:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 26, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
The gamble can be forgiven.Egotism and avarice are sadly all too common traits.The ongoing deliberate concealment of assets ,the effective robbery of the Irish state and people is the crime (we'll not mention on the run nephews).Until Mr Quinn puts this right, which he can do at any time,he will not recover his reputation.
The Irish state may well have to pay compensation to the Quinn family regarding their actions over the assets. Ownership of the assets is still disputed. Both sides were playing dirty and there's a case against the State starting now in Feb 2015. Regarding his reputation, that's your opinion and your entitled to it. But it's not shared by everyone.

The Quinns are entitled to take as many cases at they can afford. But until a court finds in their favour, it means nothing.

Where I sit he made a spectacularly stupid bet, compounded it when even Anglo officials told him to unwind it, and like anyone who loses a bet he should pay it off. He is trying to escape the consequences of his bet by desperately seeking a technicality in court and thus is trying to have the taxpayer pick up the tab.

Losing a bet is something we all can do, but trying to get every other Irish person to pay for it, and thus keep himself in wealth, is hubris behind my comprehension.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on December 27, 2014, 06:39:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 27, 2014, 04:17:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 26, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
The gamble can be forgiven.Egotism and avarice are sadly all too common traits.The ongoing deliberate concealment of assets ,the effective robbery of the Irish state and people is the crime (we'll not mention on the run nephews).Until Mr Quinn puts this right, which he can do at any time,he will not recover his reputation.
The Irish state may well have to pay compensation to the Quinn family regarding their actions over the assets. Ownership of the assets is still disputed. Both sides were playing dirty and there's a case against the State starting now in Feb 2015. Regarding his reputation, that's your opinion and your entitled to it. But it's not shared by everyone.

The Quinns are entitled to take as many cases at they can afford. But until a court finds in their favour, it means nothing.

Where I sit he made a spectacularly stupid bet, compounded it when even Anglo officials told him to unwind it, and like anyone who loses a bet he should pay it off. He is trying to escape the consequences of his bet by desperately seeking a technicality in court and thus is trying to have the taxpayer pick up the tab.

Losing a bet is something we all can do, but trying to get every other Irish person to pay for it, and thus keep himself in wealth, is hubris behind my comprehension.
But but but what about all the people he employed. Great man etc.

The same people don't seem to realise he gambled their livelihoods and their future.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thebigfella on December 27, 2014, 06:51:21 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 27, 2014, 04:17:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 26, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
The gamble can be forgiven.Egotism and avarice are sadly all too common traits.The ongoing deliberate concealment of assets ,the effective robbery of the Irish state and people is the crime (we'll not mention on the run nephews).Until Mr Quinn puts this right, which he can do at any time,he will not recover his reputation.
The Irish state may well have to pay compensation to the Quinn family regarding their actions over the assets. Ownership of the assets is still disputed. Both sides were playing dirty and there's a case against the State starting now in Feb 2015. Regarding his reputation, that's your opinion and your entitled to it. But it's not shared by everyone.

The Quinns are entitled to take as many cases at they can afford. But until a court finds in their favour, it means nothing.

Where I sit he made a spectacularly stupid bet, compounded it when even Anglo officials told him to unwind it, and like anyone who loses a bet he should pay it off. He is trying to escape the consequences of his bet by desperately seeking a technicality in court and thus is trying to have the taxpayer pick up the tab.

Losing a bet is something we all can do, but trying to get every other Irish person to pay for it, and thus keep himself in wealth, is hubris behind my comprehension.

Well every irish person south of the border. He's still a great man round Fermanagh where they don't have to pick up the tab.  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on December 28, 2014, 09:05:05 AM
The real disturbing issue is the continuing withdrawal of government leaving the entire livelihoods of sizeable regions in the hands of people like Quinn,and worse still,Governments lauding the likes of Quinn,Alan Sugar etc as employment creators that we should all look up to and aspire to emulate.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 28, 2014, 09:18:55 AM
It is disturbing what the governments are doing with Northern Ireland. The governments and political parties have brought in the "accountants" who have advised them that they must reduce the size of the public sector ( 20000 jobs must go ) and the private sector must be grown.

And the main parties have said " not a problem".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 12:18:51 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 27, 2014, 04:17:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 26, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
The gamble can be forgiven.Egotism and avarice are sadly all too common traits.The ongoing deliberate concealment of assets ,the effective robbery of the Irish state and people is the crime (we'll not mention on the run nephews).Until Mr Quinn puts this right, which he can do at any time,he will not recover his reputation.
The Irish state may well have to pay compensation to the Quinn family regarding their actions over the assets. Ownership of the assets is still disputed. Both sides were playing dirty and there's a case against the State starting now in Feb 2015. Regarding his reputation, that's your opinion and your entitled to it. But it's not shared by everyone.

The Quinns are entitled to take as many cases at they can afford. But until a court finds in their favour, it means nothing.

Where I sit he made a spectacularly stupid bet, compounded it when even Anglo officials told him to unwind it, and like anyone who loses a bet he should pay it off. He is trying to escape the consequences of his bet by desperately seeking a technicality in court and thus is trying to have the taxpayer pick up the tab.

Losing a bet is something we all can do, but trying to get every other Irish person to pay for it, and thus keep himself in wealth, is hubris behind my comprehension.

Fair enough, but I don't agree that the Quinn's  should just drop a case against Anglo just because the State decided to nationalise it. If they think that both Anglo and the Irish state acted wrongly and it adversely affected them then they are entitled to sue. Anglo and the state were very quick to act against Them so it works both ways.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 12:53:04 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 12:18:51 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 27, 2014, 04:17:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 26, 2014, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 26, 2014, 08:50:54 AM
The gamble can be forgiven.Egotism and avarice are sadly all too common traits.The ongoing deliberate concealment of assets ,the effective robbery of the Irish state and people is the crime (we'll not mention on the run nephews).Until Mr Quinn puts this right, which he can do at any time,he will not recover his reputation.
The Irish state may well have to pay compensation to the Quinn family regarding their actions over the assets. Ownership of the assets is still disputed. Both sides were playing dirty and there's a case against the State starting now in Feb 2015. Regarding his reputation, that's your opinion and your entitled to it. But it's not shared by everyone.

The Quinns are entitled to take as many cases at they can afford. But until a court finds in their favour, it means nothing.

Where I sit he made a spectacularly stupid bet, compounded it when even Anglo officials told him to unwind it, and like anyone who loses a bet he should pay it off. He is trying to escape the consequences of his bet by desperately seeking a technicality in court and thus is trying to have the taxpayer pick up the tab.

Losing a bet is something we all can do, but trying to get every other Irish person to pay for it, and thus keep himself in wealth, is hubris behind my comprehension.

Fair enough, but I don't agree that the Quinn's  should just drop a case against Anglo just because the State decided to nationalise it. If they think that both Anglo and the Irish state acted wrongly and it adversely affected them then they are entitled to sue. Anglo and the state were very quick to act against Them so it works both ways.

How exactly did they act wrongly? He never told them he was building up a huge position in the Bank using CFD notes. It was only when they found out that they tried to use other investor's monies to shore up the share price. The bottom line is  he built that position up nobody else did and he should accept the consequences of that.

I've backed five horse today at Leopardstown I'm not going to get a rebate if they lose.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 01:19:22 PM
Loaning money to allow the Quinn's to convert the CFDs to shares was illegal. It was to protect the share price. And it was done with the knowledge of the Regulator and the DOF.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 01:24:01 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 01:19:22 PM
Loaning money to allow the Quinn's to convert the CFDs to shares was illegal. It was to protect the share price. And it was done with the knowledge of the Regulator and the DOF.

And to protect Quinn's own interests. And he knew all about it. He kept buying shares like there was no tomorrow even when the share price was going south
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 01:35:26 PM
It wasn't to protect the Quinn's, it was to protect their share price.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 02:28:37 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 01:35:26 PM
It wasn't to protect the Quinn's, it was to protect their share price.

And his interests which he had already declared to them prior to them shoring up the share price.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 02:39:48 PM
Let's not try and pretend that Anglo were acting for anyone's benefit other than their own.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 02:50:16 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 02:39:48 PM
Let's not try and pretend that Anglo were acting for anyone's benefit other than their own.

I'm not- but it was his interests too and they wouldn't have had to do it had he unwound the position. He made the decision to take such a large stake in the company and it backfired. They didn't buy the shares for him
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:02:49 PM
Actually they did. They loaned the money to change the CFDs to shares. By doing so they broke the law. Anglo could have tried to work with Quinn but they decided the best bet was to take it over. That's fine, but The problem with that option was that They hadn't done everything by the book themselves. Which leaves them in the position they're in at the minute as the Quinn's owe them no favours.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:02:49 PM
Actually they did. They loaned the money to change the CFDs to shares. By doing so they broke the law. Anglo could have tried to work with Quinn but they decided the best bet was to take it over. That's fine, but The problem with that option was that They hadn't done everything by the book themselves. Which leaves them in the position they're in at the minute as the Quinn's owe them no favours.

HIt's all his own fault. If you're expecting me to have sympathy for a billionaire who made a poor bet and compounded it by purchasing more shares in a falling share price you're kidding yourself. He hasn't a hope of winning that case in court
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:15:19 PM
I don't really give a sh!te if you have sympathy for him or not. I never asks you to. He's not running any cases in court so it would be hard for him to lose one.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 28, 2014, 03:21:53 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:02:49 PM
Actually they did. They loaned the money to change the CFDs to shares. By doing so they broke the law. Anglo could have tried to work with Quinn but they decided the best bet was to take it over. That's fine, but The problem with that option was that They hadn't done everything by the book themselves. Which leaves them in the position they're in at the minute as the Quinn's owe them no favours.

All of this was because Quinn had built up such an exposure that it threatened to take Anglo down the drain, along with the already committed Quinn Group. Quinn was already screwed when this happened.

I wish by all means to see Anglo people punished in the courts for any misdeeds, but I also want to see Quinn have to pay in full for his monumentally stupid bet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:43:14 PM
Anglo was going down the drain regardless. It was because of they're plummeting share price that started the problems. We don't know what SQ had committed to the CFDs and because anglo loaned him the money we'll never find out what would have happened. But that's an aside, my point is that Anglo drew first blood with their midnight military take over of the group, so if the Quinn's believe they have a case against Anglo they why wouldn't they take it to court. He owes them no favours.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:43:14 PM
Anglo was going down the drain regardless. It was because of they're plummeting share price that started the problems. We don't know what SQ had committed to the CFDs and because anglo loaned him the money we'll never find out what would have happened. But that's an aside, my point is that Anglo drew first blood with their midnight military take over of the group, so if the Quinn's believe they have a case against Anglo they why wouldn't they take it to court. He owes them no favours.

We  do know. It's  1.5 billion. Lets keep to the facts. Thats on public record
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:52:07 PM
If Anglo hadn't loaned the money he would have had to close out earlier than he did. He would have missed the St paddys day massacre. He could have been in a position to service the debt at that stage. Of course that meant dropping a load of Anglo shares on the market which would have hit their share price. And that's when Anglo stepped in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 28, 2014, 04:01:39 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:43:14 PM
Anglo was going down the drain regardless. It was because of they're plummeting share price that started the problems. We don't know what SQ had committed to the CFDs and because anglo loaned him the money we'll never find out what would have happened. But that's an aside, my point is that Anglo drew first blood with their midnight military take over of the group, so if the Quinn's believe they have a case against Anglo they why wouldn't they take it to court. He owes them no favours.

Anglo lent him the money because he couldn't make his margin calls. Not making his margin calls would have triggered his bankruptcy and the sale of the shares held in the CFD, thus collapsing the price. If Anglo had done nothing, Quinn would most likely have been liquidated by the CFD house. This is why, imho, Quinn didn't stop Anglo, he had no leverage.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:52:07 PM
If Anglo hadn't loaned the money he would have had to close out earlier than he did. He would have missed the St paddys day massacre. He could have been in a position to service the debt at that stage. Of course that meant dropping a load of Anglo shares on the market which would have hit their share price. And that's when Anglo stepped in.

He couldn't cash in because he couldn't make the margin calls. And had his brokerage made him cash in the bank would have collapsed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:52:07 PM
If Anglo hadn't loaned the money he would have had to close out earlier than he did. He would have missed the St paddys day massacre. He could have been in a position to service the debt at that stage. Of course that meant dropping a load of Anglo shares on the market which would have hit their share price. And that's when Anglo stepped in.

He couldn't cash in because he couldn't make the margin calls. And had his brokerage made him cash in the bank would have collapsed.

Was it Sean personally who was liable for the margin calls or the Group?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 28, 2014, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:52:07 PM
If Anglo hadn't loaned the money he would have had to close out earlier than he did. He would have missed the St paddys day massacre. He could have been in a position to service the debt at that stage. Of course that meant dropping a load of Anglo shares on the market which would have hit their share price. And that's when Anglo stepped in.

He couldn't cash in because he couldn't make the margin calls. And had his brokerage made him cash in the bank would have collapsed.

Was it Sean personally who was liable for the margin calls or the Group?

Good question, I don't know what collateral the CFD House had, but they don't take losses or risk when entering a CFD, so it is likely everything was on the line. McCaffrey (correct name?) sent a letter to Anglo once they got involved putting up the QG as collateral.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 28, 2014, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:52:07 PM
If Anglo hadn't loaned the money he would have had to close out earlier than he did. He would have missed the St paddys day massacre. He could have been in a position to service the debt at that stage. Of course that meant dropping a load of Anglo shares on the market which would have hit their share price. And that's when Anglo stepped in.

He couldn't cash in because he couldn't make the margin calls. And had his brokerage made him cash in the bank would have collapsed.

Was it Sean personally who was liable for the margin calls or the Group?

Good question, I don't know what collateral the CFD House had, but they don't take losses or risk when entering a CFD, so it is likely everything was on the line. McCaffrey (correct name?) sent a letter to Anglo once they got involved putting up the QG as collateral.

that's what I thought. I remember reading about that letter and could never understand it. From a group perspective what had they to gain and everything to lose? I would have thought taking on liability of that size wound have needed bond holder approval?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 28, 2014, 05:40:02 PM
Quote from: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 28, 2014, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:52:07 PM
If Anglo hadn't loaned the money he would have had to close out earlier than he did. He would have missed the St paddys day massacre. He could have been in a position to service the debt at that stage. Of course that meant dropping a load of Anglo shares on the market which would have hit their share price. And that's when Anglo stepped in.

He couldn't cash in because he couldn't make the margin calls. And had his brokerage made him cash in the bank would have collapsed.

Was it Sean personally who was liable for the margin calls or the Group?

Good question, I don't know what collateral the CFD House had, but they don't take losses or risk when entering a CFD, so it is likely everything was on the line. McCaffrey (correct name?) sent a letter to Anglo once they got involved putting up the QG as collateral.

that's what I thought. I remember reading about that letter and could never understand it. From a group perspective what had they to gain and everything to lose? I would have thought taking on liability of that size wound have needed bond holder approval?

They stood to gain the loans to cover the margin calls and keep the CFD House wolf from the door. At that point in time, if they believed Anglo's share price falling was temporary, they may have thought this was a good thing. Hindsight obviously tells us the opposite.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 06:21:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 28, 2014, 05:40:02 PM
Quote from: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 28, 2014, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:52:07 PM
If Anglo hadn't loaned the money he would have had to close out earlier than he did. He would have missed the St paddys day massacre. He could have been in a position to service the debt at that stage. Of course that meant dropping a load of Anglo shares on the market which would have hit their share price. And that's when Anglo stepped in.

He couldn't cash in because he couldn't make the margin calls. And had his brokerage made him cash in the bank would have collapsed.

Was it Sean personally who was liable for the margin calls or the Group?

Good question, I don't know what collateral the CFD House had, but they don't take losses or risk when entering a CFD, so it is likely everything was on the line. McCaffrey (correct name?) sent a letter to Anglo once they got involved putting up the QG as collateral.

that's what I thought. I remember reading about that letter and could never understand it. From a group perspective what had they to gain and everything to lose? I would have thought taking on liability of that size wound have needed bond holder approval?

They stood to gain the loans to cover the margin calls and keep the CFD House wolf from the door. At that point in time, if they believed Anglo's share price falling was temporary, they may have thought this was a good thing. Hindsight obviously tells us the opposite.

How would they have benefitted from this? I understand that if the share price had went up they would have had the profit, same as anyone else. But it was a massive risk. Clearly the whole thing only happened because of who Sean Quinn was. But

a) If he was not a group Shareholder, surely McCaffrey or whoever the Group CEO was could not have given collateral over group assets without considering directors duties to act in the best interest of the company?
b) If you make the argument that (a) did nt apply because they thought the share price would rise and the Group stood to make a profit, given the size of the investment in shares relative to the size of the company, I would have thought that any bond agreement would have negative pledge clauses stopping the Board from making such a material change to the Group strategy/Balance Sheet without bond holder approval. These would be relatively standard. At the end of the day the bond holders (pension funds/fund managers etc) didn't invest how many £100s of millions to let Liam McCaffrey decide how the stock market was going to go. They have plenty of their own people to do that.

I'm no lawyer and am sure that everything was covered off but it just seems bizarre in terms of how lax everything was in terms of paperwork.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on December 28, 2014, 06:24:03 PM
The Quinns didn't understand how serious the 08 crash was. They didn't understand the risks.
They weren't the only ones. Look at Tony O'Reilly.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 28, 2014, 07:03:25 PM
Quote from: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 06:21:59 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 28, 2014, 05:40:02 PM
Quote from: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 05:35:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on December 28, 2014, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: TabClear on December 28, 2014, 04:49:28 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on December 28, 2014, 03:52:07 PM
If Anglo hadn't loaned the money he would have had to close out earlier than he did. He would have missed the St paddys day massacre. He could have been in a position to service the debt at that stage. Of course that meant dropping a load of Anglo shares on the market which would have hit their share price. And that's when Anglo stepped in.

He couldn't cash in because he couldn't make the margin calls. And had his brokerage made him cash in the bank would have collapsed.

Was it Sean personally who was liable for the margin calls or the Group?

Good question, I don't know what collateral the CFD House had, but they don't take losses or risk when entering a CFD, so it is likely everything was on the line. McCaffrey (correct name?) sent a letter to Anglo once they got involved putting up the QG as collateral.

that's what I thought. I remember reading about that letter and could never understand it. From a group perspective what had they to gain and everything to lose? I would have thought taking on liability of that size wound have needed bond holder approval?

They stood to gain the loans to cover the margin calls and keep the CFD House wolf from the door. At that point in time, if they believed Anglo's share price falling was temporary, they may have thought this was a good thing. Hindsight obviously tells us the opposite.

How would they have benefitted from this? I understand that if the share price had went up they would have had the profit, same as anyone else. But it was a massive risk. Clearly the whole thing only happened because of who Sean Quinn was. But

a) If he was not a group Shareholder, surely McCaffrey or whoever the Group CEO was could not have given collateral over group assets without considering directors duties to act in the best interest of the company?
b) If you make the argument that (a) did nt apply because they thought the share price would rise and the Group stood to make a profit, given the size of the investment in shares relative to the size of the company, I would have thought that any bond agreement would have negative pledge clauses stopping the Board from making such a material change to the Group strategy/Balance Sheet without bond holder approval. These would be relatively standard. At the end of the day the bond holders (pension funds/fund managers etc) didn't invest how many £100s of millions to let Liam McCaffrey decide how the stock market was going to go. They have plenty of their own people to do that.

I'm no lawyer and am sure that everything was covered off but it just seems bizarre in terms of how lax everything was in terms of paperwork.

When Sean Fitzpatrick met Quinn he told him to unwind the shareholding. Quinn went out and bought more. According to Carswells book, the Anglo management believed that SQ bought shares, drove the price up and then bought more shares because he saw the price went up. SQ appeared to have great faith in Anglo and its share price, ridiculous as it seems now.

As for the rest of your post, I have stated here before that I don't understand why the Quinn children, and any other shareholders of the Quinn Group, haven't taken action against SQ and McCaffrey.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on December 29, 2014, 01:13:21 AM


Muppet, what right has Sean Fitzpatrick to tell Sean Quinn or any individual what to do??.

He (SF) was running a listed company so he was legally obliged to give the correct information to the market. After that whatever anybody decides as far a share price goes, up to them. FFS I lost money on Anglo, Sean Fitz did nt ring me or meet me in a hotel to tell me not to buy (Quite the opposite as it happens) but if you don't want to take risks then the stock market is not for you.

I'm not defending SQ here, like I say I lost money on Anglo. But, I knew the risks. As far as I am concerned Anglo have a lot more to answer for here than SQ as an individual. I understand that subsequent events means that the burden falls on the taxpayer but that does not mean that it is wrong and the family cannot seek compensation.



I do think the whole things was badly managed both sides (understatement of 2014), but, the aim now should be to maximise the return to stakeholders. Bottom line as far as I am concerned is that there is more for everyone if SQ is back running the ship.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 29, 2014, 08:09:21 AM
Quote from: TabClear on December 29, 2014, 01:13:21 AM


Muppet, what right has Sean Fitzpatrick to tell Sean Quinn or any individual what to do??.

He (SF) was running a listed company so he was legally obliged to give the correct information to the market. After that whatever anybody decides as far a share price goes, up to them. FFS I lost money on Anglo, Sean Fitz did nt ring me or meet me in a hotel to tell me not to buy (Quite the opposite as it happens) but if you don't want to take risks then the stock market is not for you.

I'm not defending SQ here, like I say I lost money on Anglo. But, I knew the risks. As far as I am concerned Anglo have a lot more to answer for here than SQ as an individual. I understand that subsequent events means that the burden falls on the taxpayer but that does not mean that it is wrong and the family cannot seek compensation.



I do think the whole things was badly managed both sides (understatement of 2014), but, the aim now should be to maximise the return to stakeholders. Bottom line as far as I am concerned is that there is more for everyone if SQ is back running the ship.

What right? He was chairman of a bank meeting a man he thought was about to collapse that bank with a daft financial instrument. I'm sure your investment wasn't quite as threatening.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on December 29, 2014, 11:05:05 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 29, 2014, 08:09:21 AM
Quote from: TabClear on December 29, 2014, 01:13:21 AM


Muppet, what right has Sean Fitzpatrick to tell Sean Quinn or any individual what to do??.

He (SF) was running a listed company so he was legally obliged to give the correct information to the market. After that whatever anybody decides as far a share price goes, up to them. FFS I lost money on Anglo, Sean Fitz did nt ring me or meet me in a hotel to tell me not to buy (Quite the opposite as it happens) but if you don't want to take risks then the stock market is not for you.

I'm not defending SQ here, like I say I lost money on Anglo. But, I knew the risks. As far as I am concerned Anglo have a lot more to answer for here than SQ as an individual. I understand that subsequent events means that the burden falls on the taxpayer but that does not mean that it is wrong and the family cannot seek compensation.



I do think the whole things was badly managed both sides (understatement of 2014), but, the aim now should be to maximise the return to stakeholders. Bottom line as far as I am concerned is that there is more for everyone if SQ is back running the ship.

What right? He was chairman of a bank meeting a man he thought was about to collapse that bank with a daft financial instrument. I'm sure your investment wasn't quite as threatening.

But it was legal. CFDs might not be the preferred option for a Chairman of a listed company as you cannot necessarily tell who owns your company but it was within the law. Its the price you pay for listing on the stock exchange and accessing the capital markets. SF might not have liked it but the argument is that his actions were driven by supporting the share price, and that is getting into company law territory, hence the family's case.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on December 29, 2014, 04:52:20 PM
Quote from: TabClear on December 29, 2014, 11:05:05 AM
Quote from: muppet on December 29, 2014, 08:09:21 AM
Quote from: TabClear on December 29, 2014, 01:13:21 AM


Muppet, what right has Sean Fitzpatrick to tell Sean Quinn or any individual what to do??.

He (SF) was running a listed company so he was legally obliged to give the correct information to the market. After that whatever anybody decides as far a share price goes, up to them. FFS I lost money on Anglo, Sean Fitz did nt ring me or meet me in a hotel to tell me not to buy (Quite the opposite as it happens) but if you don't want to take risks then the stock market is not for you.

I'm not defending SQ here, like I say I lost money on Anglo. But, I knew the risks. As far as I am concerned Anglo have a lot more to answer for here than SQ as an individual. I understand that subsequent events means that the burden falls on the taxpayer but that does not mean that it is wrong and the family cannot seek compensation.



I do think the whole things was badly managed both sides (understatement of 2014), but, the aim now should be to maximise the return to stakeholders. Bottom line as far as I am concerned is that there is more for everyone if SQ is back running the ship.

What right? He was chairman of a bank meeting a man he thought was about to collapse that bank with a daft financial instrument. I'm sure your investment wasn't quite as threatening.

But it was legal. CFDs might not be the preferred option for a Chairman of a listed company as you cannot necessarily tell who owns your company but it was within the law. Its the price you pay for listing on the stock exchange and accessing the capital markets. SF might not have liked it but the argument is that his actions were driven by supporting the share price, and that is getting into company law territory, hence the family's case.

I didn't say it was illegal.

You asked what right had SF to ask Quinn to sell. To use your answer, it was perfectly legal. But to go further, board members talk to major shareholders all the time and vice versa. The latter are who appoint the board members.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Applesisapples on December 30, 2014, 05:34:45 PM
Quote from: orangeman on December 28, 2014, 09:18:55 AM
It is disturbing what the governments are doing with Northern Ireland. The governments and political parties have brought in the "accountants" who have advised them that they must reduce the size of the public sector ( 20000 jobs must go ) and the private sector must be grown.

And the main parties have said " not a problem".
They have no choice the tax payers of England are no longer prepared to pay for the upkeep of this part of Ireland.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 30, 2014, 06:41:53 PM
Reality coming to rhe 6 Cos.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on December 30, 2014, 07:00:53 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2014, 06:41:53 PM
Reality coming to rhe 6 Cos.

The reality of the sit you ay shun
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on December 30, 2014, 07:16:29 PM
Was it Liberty that took over the insurance business ?  The cream of Irish finance fucked up all the major companies- Quinn, Bank of Ireland, Irish Life and Permo and AIB.
None of them have any decent ads in Croke Park these days.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2015, 11:11:11 AM
Sean Quinn coming out of Bankruptcy on Friday. Have to say I'm surprised at the amount of remuneration he has to pay back over the next two years. I would have thought it would have been a lot higher. I know this is set by the official assignee but seems very low. I think in the North it's a % of your income after bankruptcy? You would think that would have been a better deal.

QuoteThe former billionaire Sean Quinn is to pay €10,000 per year for the next two years to the Official Assignee Chris Lehane, the bankruptcy court has ruled.

Mr Lehane, whose office oversees the affairs of bankrupts, sought the order after reading media reports before Christmas that Mr Quinn might provide services to the new owners of the former Quinn Group construction materials business.

Mr Quinn is due to emerge from his three-year period of bankruptcy this Friday. Under bankruptcy law an order may be sought by Mr Lehane's office requiring a former bankrupt to make payments from his income or assets for the benefit of creditors, for a period of up to five years after he or she emerges from bankruptcy. The order must be sought prior to the bankrupt emerging from bankruptcy.


Former billionaire Sean Quinn, who is due to emerge from a three-year term of bankruptcy later this week. Photograph: Dara Mac Dónaill / The Irish TimesQuinn glass bidders Vidrala say they will keep jobs

John McCartin and Seán Quinn serve drinks to employees as Quinn returns to the headquarters of his former company on the Cavan-Fermanagh border. Photograph: Lorraine TeevanSeán Quinn gets hero's welcome as locals begin rebuilding empire

Just before Christmas Seán Quinn paid a visit to the group offices in Derrylin, Co Fermanagh. He is due to act as an adviser to the new owners. Former Quinn companies to have Luxembourg parent
   
Barrister Bernard Dunleavy, for the Official Assignee, told Ms Justice Caroline Costello that after Mr Lehane had read media reports concerning Mr Quinn's return to some of his former businesses, the two men had met and Mr Quinn had made a "satisfactory offer" in relation to payments from future income.

Ms Justice Costello then made a payment order on consent for €10,000 per year beginning this Friday, with liberty to both parties to re-enter the case.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on January 13, 2015, 11:25:35 AM
Laws are made by the rich for the rich!
Nice to see him getting a bit of work anyway ::)
Meanwhile the 2 million taxpayers are on average €1,000 a head out of pocket.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2015, 12:25:46 PM
Your right, good to see him back.
Unfortunately I don't think the glass factory will be held on to and it looks like it's going to Spanish ownership.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on January 13, 2015, 02:11:16 PM
Any chance they could be intimidated out of it? I thought that's what happens in these circumstances?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2015, 02:15:26 PM
Deal's done. It's only a matter of time before it was announced.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on January 13, 2015, 04:12:30 PM
Why did one business who was considering taking over a ex-Quinn operation get intimidated and others didn't? Whats the story there I wonder?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on January 13, 2015, 05:50:32 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on January 13, 2015, 04:12:30 PM
Why did one business who was considering taking over a ex-Quinn operation get intimidated and others didn't? Whats the story there I wonder?

The first rule of mob rule is: There is no logic to mob rule.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2015, 07:25:11 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on January 13, 2015, 04:12:30 PM
Why did one business who was considering taking over a ex-Quinn operation get intimidated and others didn't? Whats the story there I wonder?

No idea.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 16, 2015, 10:04:52 AM
First day of freedom. Debt free apart from the 2 x €10k that he has to give. That is some weight lifted off his shoulders.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on January 16, 2015, 11:03:19 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 16, 2015, 10:04:52 AM
First day of freedom. Debt free apart from the 2 x €10k that he has to give. That is some weight lifted off his shoulders.

And some kick in the stones to all the creditors. . .
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on January 16, 2015, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 16, 2015, 11:03:19 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 16, 2015, 10:04:52 AM
First day of freedom. Debt free apart from the 2 x €10k that he has to give. That is some weight lifted off his shoulders.

And some kick in the stones to all the creditors. . .
+1.
2 Million taxpayers in the 26 Cos well kicked now >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thebigfella on January 16, 2015, 01:59:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 16, 2015, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 16, 2015, 11:03:19 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 16, 2015, 10:04:52 AM
First day of freedom. Debt free apart from the 2 x €10k that he has to give. That is some weight lifted off his shoulders.

And some kick in the stones to all the creditors. . .
+1.
2 Million taxpayers in the 26 Cos well kicked now >:(

Don't let that get in the way of a few jobs in Fermanagh though
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: deiseach on January 16, 2015, 02:14:45 PM
He'll be getting a job on Newstalk before too long to lecture us all on our slobby non-entrepreneurial ways.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on January 16, 2015, 03:10:41 PM
UP SEAN QUINN!! Legend of a man!  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on January 16, 2015, 03:47:24 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 16, 2015, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 16, 2015, 11:03:19 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 16, 2015, 10:04:52 AM
First day of freedom. Debt free apart from the 2 x €10k that he has to give. That is some weight lifted off his shoulders.

And some kick in the stones to all the creditors. . .
+1.
2 Million taxpayers in the 26 Cos well kicked now >:(

They were kicked in the stones the night Brian Cowan and Lenihan agreed to guarantee the Banks. Its only now the pain is beginning to sink in, water charges, etc, etc.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on January 16, 2015, 03:51:05 PM
Someday RTE will commission a series about this, like they're doing with Charlie Haughey presently.

Toss up between Charlie Lawson (Jim Mc Donald Coronation Street) and Adrian Dunbar to play the lead role
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on January 16, 2015, 04:42:48 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 16, 2015, 03:47:24 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 16, 2015, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 16, 2015, 11:03:19 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 16, 2015, 10:04:52 AM
First day of freedom. Debt free apart from the 2 x €10k that he has to give. That is some weight lifted off his shoulders.

And some kick in the stones to all the creditors. . .
+1.
2 Million taxpayers in the 26 Cos well kicked now >:(

They were kicked in the stones the night Brian Cowan and Lenihan agreed to guarantee the Banks. Its only now the pain is beginning to sink in, water charges, etc, etc.

Don't forge the Insurance levy as well!!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on January 16, 2015, 05:07:56 PM
So when Brian Cowan signed the Irish people over as guarantor to Anglo how much did Brian doing that cost them in total.. 
You must agree that Cowan was right to sign over the debt if you believe that Quinn was in the wrong not to pay it. Anglos mistakes were anglos mistakes.  Quinns mistakes as an individual businessman were absolutely limited in terms of responsibility to the Irish Government / people etc. People dont get paid all the time.  The Government should not have mortgaged Anglo to the people and risked putting the country bust by taking this action.  They didnt care they were saving their own and anglos arses.  The Irish man will never think beyond the headline....     
Im definitely not with ye on this.  The Irish people must take responsibility for the governments they elect and the decisions that these elected people make.  They must hold their governments responsibility when they make the wrong decisions.  However they prefer to buy into the easy story and would rather be duped than face the truth.  Idiotic really..
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on January 16, 2015, 05:10:41 PM
it isn't a question of either Cowan or Quinn being right. Quinn should have paid back his loans and Cowan should not have allowed the banks get into the state they were in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on January 16, 2015, 05:41:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 16, 2015, 05:10:41 PM
it isn't a question of either Cowan or Quinn being right. Quinn should have paid back his loans and Cowan should not have allowed the banks get into the state they were in.
+1.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 27, 2015, 07:23:52 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0327/690209-quinn-anglo-court/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0327/690209-quinn-anglo-court/)

Quinn family 'cannot rely on alleged illegality' in case over Anglo loans - Supreme Court
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on March 28, 2015, 11:09:35 PM
Lead story in tomorrow's Sunday business post is that state are in secret negotiations to settle with the quinns
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 28, 2015, 11:39:40 PM
How much has the crooked bastard agreed to pay the state?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: redzone on March 29, 2015, 08:54:24 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 28, 2015, 11:39:40 PM
How much has the crooked b**tard agreed to pay the state?

The only crooked ones in this case are the state. Sean Quinn is a gentleman and a legend
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: theskull1 on March 29, 2015, 09:35:57 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 28, 2015, 11:39:40 PM
How much has the crooked b**tard agreed to pay the state?

How dare you say such a thing Tony

Expect a few bullets in the post for that insolence
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 29, 2015, 10:16:10 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on March 29, 2015, 09:35:57 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 28, 2015, 11:39:40 PM
How much has the crooked b**tard agreed to pay the state?

How dare you say such a thing Tony

Expect a few bullets in the post for that insolence
:D I'll keep a fire extinguisher by the bed just in case. Poor oul humble Sean fcuked over by the State  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 29, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
Quote from: redzone on March 29, 2015, 08:54:24 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 28, 2015, 11:39:40 PM
How much has the crooked b**tard agreed to pay the state?

The only crooked ones in this case are the state. Sean Quinn is a gentleman and a legend

He sure is a legend.

He will be still spoken about in 500 years.

To go from Ireland's richest man to Ireland's poorest takes world class stupidity. But to blame everyone else really takes the biscuit. Gentleman my arse, he hasn't an ounce of dignity.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Agent Orange on March 29, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 29, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
To go from Ireland's richest man to Ireland's poorest takes world class stupidity. But to blame everyone else really takes the biscuit. Gentleman my arse, he hasn't an ounce of dignity.

I somehow doubt that SQ is Irelands poorest man, I certainly wouldn't mind being a pound poorer than him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 30, 2015, 04:48:13 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 29, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 29, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
To go from Ireland's richest man to Ireland's poorest takes world class stupidity. But to blame everyone else really takes the biscuit. Gentleman my arse, he hasn't an ounce of dignity.

I somehow doubt that SQ is Irelands poorest man, I certainly wouldn't mind being a pound poorer than him.

If he paid his debts he would be Ireland's poorest man. No Irish man has ever owed so much.

I cannot think of any Irishman that ever existed that is less of a sc**bag than that gutless coward.

Man up and pay your losses Sean! It is embarrassing to even consider him as Irish.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bazil Douglas on March 30, 2015, 10:42:10 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 30, 2015, 04:48:13 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 29, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 29, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
To go from Ireland's richest man to Ireland's poorest takes world class stupidity. But to blame everyone else really takes the biscuit. Gentleman my arse, he hasn't an ounce of dignity.

I somehow doubt that SQ is Irelands poorest man, I certainly wouldn't mind being a pound poorer than him.

If he paid his debts he would be Ireland's poorest man. No Irish man has ever owed so much.

(I cannot think of any Irishman that ever existed that is less of a sc**bag than that gutless coward.

Man up and pay your losses Sean! It is embarrassing to even consider him as Irish.)

Yer obviously not thinking hard enough Mup quite a few Irish politicians would fit into that bracket with their Cayman Island, & Swiss bank accounts.
Now, Quinns no angel but he was always too smart a dog to be f**ked by a shower corrupt puppies.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on March 30, 2015, 10:59:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 30, 2015, 04:48:13 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 29, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 29, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
To go from Ireland's richest man to Ireland's poorest takes world class stupidity. But to blame everyone else really takes the biscuit. Gentleman my arse, he hasn't an ounce of dignity.

I somehow doubt that SQ is Irelands poorest man, I certainly wouldn't mind being a pound poorer than him.

If he paid his debts he would be Ireland's poorest man. No Irish man has ever owed so much.

I cannot think of any Irishman that ever existed that is less of a sc**bag than that gutless coward.

Man up and pay your losses Sean! It is embarrassing to even consider him as Irish.

Few jars last night muppet? :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 30, 2015, 11:17:48 AM
Quote from: Franko on March 30, 2015, 10:59:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 30, 2015, 04:48:13 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 29, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 29, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
To go from Ireland's richest man to Ireland's poorest takes world class stupidity. But to blame everyone else really takes the biscuit. Gentleman my arse, he hasn't an ounce of dignity.

I somehow doubt that SQ is Irelands poorest man, I certainly wouldn't mind being a pound poorer than him.

If he paid his debts he would be Ireland's poorest man. No Irish man has ever owed so much.

I cannot think of any Irishman that ever existed that is less of a sc**bag than that gutless coward.

Man up and pay your losses Sean! It is embarrassing to even consider him as Irish.

Few jars last night muppet? :o

He is still a sc**bag. He wants me to pay for his losses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on March 30, 2015, 11:20:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 30, 2015, 04:48:13 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 29, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 29, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
To go from Ireland's richest man to Ireland's poorest takes world class stupidity. But to blame everyone else really takes the biscuit. Gentleman my arse, he hasn't an ounce of dignity.

I somehow doubt that SQ is Irelands poorest man, I certainly wouldn't mind being a pound poorer than him.

If he paid his debts he would be Ireland's poorest man. No Irish man has ever owed so much.

I cannot think of any Irishman that ever existed that is less of a sc**bag than that gutless coward.

Man up and pay your losses Sean! It is embarrassing to even consider him as Irish.

I don't understand where such vitriol is coming from Muppet. Quinn done more for his people than any of the elected representatives did in the last 20 years. Good to see he's going to win out on this one, he was shafted in the first incident by a shower of D4 West Brits who didn't like a country upstart being a success.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 30, 2015, 11:32:01 AM
Quote from: trileacman on March 30, 2015, 11:20:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 30, 2015, 04:48:13 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 29, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 29, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
To go from Ireland's richest man to Ireland's poorest takes world class stupidity. But to blame everyone else really takes the biscuit. Gentleman my arse, he hasn't an ounce of dignity.

I somehow doubt that SQ is Irelands poorest man, I certainly wouldn't mind being a pound poorer than him.

If he paid his debts he would be Ireland's poorest man. No Irish man has ever owed so much.

I cannot think of any Irishman that ever existed that is less of a sc**bag than that gutless coward.

Man up and pay your losses Sean! It is embarrassing to even consider him as Irish.

I don't understand where such vitriol is coming from Muppet. Quinn done more for his people than any of the elected representatives did in the last 20 years. Good to see he's going to win out on this one, he was shafted in the first incident by a shower of D4 West Brits who didn't like a country upstart being a success.


This is just beyond sad.

Is it the need to have a royalty equivalent to bow to, that is driving the hero worship?

Oh and...eh... he lost last week, yet again: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/court-says-quinns-can-t-rely-on-illegality-claims-in-2-34bn-case-1.2155839 (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/court-says-quinns-can-t-rely-on-illegality-claims-in-2-34bn-case-1.2155839)

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on March 30, 2015, 12:06:44 PM
Quote from: trileacman on March 30, 2015, 11:20:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 30, 2015, 04:48:13 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 29, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 29, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
To go from Ireland's richest man to Ireland's poorest takes world class stupidity. But to blame everyone else really takes the biscuit. Gentleman my arse, he hasn't an ounce of dignity.

I somehow doubt that SQ is Irelands poorest man, I certainly wouldn't mind being a pound poorer than him.

If he paid his debts he would be Ireland's poorest man. No Irish man has ever owed so much.

I cannot think of any Irishman that ever existed that is less of a sc**bag than that gutless coward.

Man up and pay your losses Sean! It is embarrassing to even consider him as Irish.

I don't understand where such vitriol is coming from Muppet. Quinn done more for his people than any of the elected representatives did in the last 20 years. Good to see he's going to win out on this one, he was shafted in the first incident by a shower of D4 West Brits who didn't like a country upstart being a success.

If Quinn had left well enough alone, he'd have been okay. He got involved in the Banks, ambition got the better of him, he bet big and got caught. He should have been made pay up on those differences he held, but the Banks and Irish Government went into damage limitation mode and the whole lot came tumbling down anyway and the Irish tax payers will be picking up the bill for the next few generations.

Quinn and a lot of the bankers and politicians who all contributed to the sorry mess should be in the Joy, but alas laws are made by the rich for the rich and none will see the inside of a cell worth talking about.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mayo4Sam on March 31, 2015, 12:25:44 PM
Quote from: trileacman on March 30, 2015, 11:20:52 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 30, 2015, 04:48:13 AM
Quote from: Agent Orange on March 29, 2015, 05:17:25 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 29, 2015, 04:05:35 PM
To go from Ireland's richest man to Ireland's poorest takes world class stupidity. But to blame everyone else really takes the biscuit. Gentleman my arse, he hasn't an ounce of dignity.

I somehow doubt that SQ is Irelands poorest man, I certainly wouldn't mind being a pound poorer than him.

If he paid his debts he would be Ireland's poorest man. No Irish man has ever owed so much.

I cannot think of any Irishman that ever existed that is less of a sc**bag than that gutless coward.

Man up and pay your losses Sean! It is embarrassing to even consider him as Irish.

I don't understand where such vitriol is coming from Muppet. Quinn done more for his people than any of the elected representatives did in the last 20 years. Good to see he's going to win out on this one, he was shafted in the first incident by a shower of D4 West Brits who didn't like a country upstart being a success.

We (the irish taxpayer) pay a levy, slecifically due to this man's greed and will forever more. If someone was dipping their hand into your pocket for the rest of your life would u be pissed off?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 31, 2015, 01:16:36 PM
What % in money terms are we talking about that can be laid at Quinn's door out of the entire bailout ?

I've no doubt that Quinn can be blamed for some of what went on but we should call out the rest of those who caused the country to collapse. Quinn did his wee bit of jail time for contempt. You'd imagine that he could have had plenty of company.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 02, 2015, 06:40:17 AM
Quote from: orangeman on March 31, 2015, 01:16:36 PM
What % in money terms are we talking about that can be laid at Quinn's door out of the entire bailout ?

I've no doubt that Quinn can be blamed for some of what went on but we should call out the rest of those who caused the country to collapse. Quinn did his wee bit of jail time for contempt. You'd imagine that he could have had plenty of company.

I believe he owed a little under €3bn. The Bailout was €64bn. I posted a Sunday Business Post article on the bailout thread which claimed that a mere 22 men accounted for nearly half of the bailout debt. Quinn's debt apparently was the highest of that 22.

We are also paying a levy for discrepancies in his insurance business.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on June 25, 2015, 12:04:09 PM
Liberty
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0625/710554-liberty-insurance-jobs/

Liberty Insurance is to cut 270 jobs from its operations over the next 18 months.

Staff in Cavan, Blanchardstown in Dublin, and Enniskillen in Co Fermanagh were briefed by management this morning.

The company expects 135 of the redundancies to be in Dublin, 115 in Cavan and 20 in Enniskillen.

The job losses will be voluntary and staff will be offered four weeks' pay for every year of service in addition to statutory redundancy.

The company employs just under 1,000 in Ireland.

It is understood that the job losses are a consequence of the decision by Liberty to pull out of the UK motor insurance market where it has been losing money.

The company has also decided to outsource its call centre in Enniskillen to a third party company, Hughes Insurance Services Limited.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on May 20, 2016, 11:07:11 AM
I see Sean Quinn has left the Buildung Materials business. It was always going to be difficult for an entrepreneur who was used to doing their own thing to start working for his former lieutenants and answering to a consortium of investors
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on August 17, 2017, 07:05:15 PM
He's back

https://www.quinnbet.com  (https://www.quinnbet.com)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: never kickt a ball on August 17, 2017, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: FermGael on August 17, 2017, 07:05:15 PM
He's back

https://www.quinnbet.com  (https://www.quinnbet.com)

Looks like a bit of a gamble this time though 😂
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on August 17, 2017, 09:36:28 PM
Wonder where the working capital has come from.......
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fat Angry Motorist on August 18, 2017, 11:51:49 AM
Quote from: FermGael on August 17, 2017, 07:05:15 PM
He's back

https://www.quinnbet.com  (https://www.quinnbet.com)

The betting industry is highly regulated.  A chancer like Quinn wont like that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on August 18, 2017, 12:10:24 PM
Let him at it. I don't think punters can be levied to bail out bookies (as opposed to bookies masquerading as insurance companies).

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Don Johnson on August 18, 2017, 12:14:48 PM
That's a ridiculously good sign up offer too - the 25% cash back.

Will be interesting to see how long it lasts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: JohnDenver on August 18, 2017, 12:25:46 PM
Quote from: Don Johnson on August 18, 2017, 12:14:48 PM
That's a ridiculously good sign up offer too - the 25% cash back.

Will be interesting to see how long it lasts.

Where abouts are you seeing that Don? I only see upto 50% cashback on first bet as a free bet.  Or else there is 25% of loses back weekly as free bet offer? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Don Johnson on August 18, 2017, 12:44:18 PM
Quote from: JohnDenver on August 18, 2017, 12:25:46 PM
Quote from: Don Johnson on August 18, 2017, 12:14:48 PM
That's a ridiculously good sign up offer too - the 25% cash back.

Will be interesting to see how long it lasts.

Where abouts are you seeing that Don? I only see upto 50% cashback on first bet as a free bet.  Or else there is 25% of loses back weekly as free bet offer?

It's the second slide in their carousel:
https://www.quinnbet.com/promotions/quarterback/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on August 23, 2018, 09:55:23 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sean-quinn-tells-meeting-of-desire-to-return-to-run-his-former-business-1.3604537?mode=amp
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on August 23, 2018, 11:23:50 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 23, 2018, 09:55:23 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sean-quinn-tells-meeting-of-desire-to-return-to-run-his-former-business-1.3604537?mode=amp

Oh FFS!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on September 09, 2018, 09:26:47 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/crime/new-owners-of-sean-quinns-business-empire-fear-deaths-as-violence-against-company-rises-37296963.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on September 18, 2019, 10:24:05 AM
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/quinn-industrial-boss-kevin-lunney-abducted-from-home-and-dumped-after-horrific-attack-38509809.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rudi on September 18, 2019, 11:00:09 AM
This appears to be shocking, .........?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on September 18, 2019, 11:22:09 AM
I assume last night was cards night?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: StephenC on September 18, 2019, 11:43:52 AM
Disgusting attack by a bunch of cowardly scumbags.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on September 18, 2019, 08:25:12 PM
It is indeed a cowardly and vicious attack
Apparantly these threats were well flagged as farback as a year ago  and the company promised to up its security on all levels at that time. I would have though the very minimum, considering the pattern of attacks, would be a a personal guard for each executive as one of those minimum precautions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on September 18, 2019, 11:16:07 PM
Not many supporting Quinn here today!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on September 19, 2019, 07:48:26 AM
These attacks will only stop dissuade further inward investment. They're counter productive. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnnycool on September 19, 2019, 08:33:54 AM
Quote from: trailer on September 19, 2019, 07:48:26 AM
These attacks will only stop dissuade further inward investment. They're counter productive.

I don't get that either.

Are the new owners/directors of this company supposed to give up and let Sean take over? Is that what is hoped for?

Obviously the Quinn family have nothing to do with this attack and previous other ones!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TyroneOnlooker on September 19, 2019, 08:34:04 AM
Just reading the details of the attack in the paper. Absolutely barbaric, fingernails torn off, stabbed, bleach poured over him. I'm maybe a bit naive to this but are these attacks being carried out by so called Sean Quinn supporters? What is the reasoning behind it all? Surely these new owners have safe guarded jobs and bringing prosperity to the area when it otherwise could be a wasteland.
Have the Quinn family spoken out against these attacks previously? The seriousness of the attacks would also lead you to think there is a degree of organisation behind them. It's not carried out by young lads if you know what I mean. Is paramilitary involvement suspected?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 19, 2019, 10:02:43 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on September 19, 2019, 08:33:54 AM
Quote from: trailer on September 19, 2019, 07:48:26 AM
These attacks will only stop dissuade further inward investment. They're counter productive.

I don't get that either.

Are the new owners/directors of this company supposed to give up and let Sean take over? Is that what is hoped for?

Obviously the Quinn family have nothing to do with this attack and previous other ones!


Hmmmm......
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: RedHand88 on September 19, 2019, 10:18:26 AM
Sean Quinn is a  upstanding citizen and a gem in the community... Right??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal Maguire on September 19, 2019, 10:58:10 AM
Listening to a Sunday Times journalist on Radio Ulster this morning. While being careful with his words he said it was a unique and complex issue, specific to this area. Other words like 'dissent republicans' protection payments also were touched upon during the interview.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 19, 2019, 11:16:58 AM
Quote from: TyroneOnlooker on September 19, 2019, 08:34:04 AM
Just reading the details of the attack in the paper. Absolutely barbaric, fingernails torn off, stabbed, bleach poured over him. I'm maybe a bit naive to this but are these attacks being carried out by so called Sean Quinn supporters? What is the reasoning behind it all? Surely these new owners have safe guarded jobs and bringing prosperity to the area when it otherwise could be a wasteland.
Have the Quinn family spoken out against these attacks previously? The seriousness of the attacks would also lead you to think there is a degree of organisation behind them. It's not carried out by young lads if you know what I mean. Is paramilitary involvement suspected?

The Quinns spoke out about the attacks previously and I believe has done so again regarding this. And was quite clear that he was disgusted at it. While Kevin Lunney and Sean haven't seen eye to eye in recent years, he worked closely with him for 20 odd years prior and would have been very close with Kevin and the family. If it was done with some misguided attempt at vengeance for Sean, it was very wide of the mark and will have done more harm. Disgusting act that would make you wonder what people are capable of.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on September 19, 2019, 11:33:23 AM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on September 19, 2019, 10:58:10 AM
Other words like 'dissent republicans' protection payments also were touched upon during the interview.
If this is really a thing, how many other border area companies or their executives have been attacked?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 19, 2019, 11:37:32 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 19, 2019, 11:16:58 AM
Quote from: TyroneOnlooker on September 19, 2019, 08:34:04 AM
Just reading the details of the attack in the paper. Absolutely barbaric, fingernails torn off, stabbed, bleach poured over him. I'm maybe a bit naive to this but are these attacks being carried out by so called Sean Quinn supporters? What is the reasoning behind it all? Surely these new owners have safe guarded jobs and bringing prosperity to the area when it otherwise could be a wasteland.
Have the Quinn family spoken out against these attacks previously? The seriousness of the attacks would also lead you to think there is a degree of organisation behind them. It's not carried out by young lads if you know what I mean. Is paramilitary involvement suspected?

The Quinns spoke out about the attacks previously and I believe has done so again regarding this. And was quite clear that he was disgusted at it. While Kevin Lunney and Sean haven't seen eye to eye in recent years, he worked closely with him for 20 odd years prior and would have been very close with Kevin and the family. If it was done with some misguided attempt at vengeance for Sean, it was very wide of the mark and will have done more harm. Disgusting act that would make you wonder what people are capable of.

You have to say impartially that it takes a lot for people not to believe that deep in him somewhere, he's happy enough the people that he said stabbed him in the back and treated him like crap (to paraphrase) are getting tortured....now literally. He's made no secret he wants the business back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 19, 2019, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 19, 2019, 11:37:32 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 19, 2019, 11:16:58 AM
Quote from: TyroneOnlooker on September 19, 2019, 08:34:04 AM
Just reading the details of the attack in the paper. Absolutely barbaric, fingernails torn off, stabbed, bleach poured over him. I'm maybe a bit naive to this but are these attacks being carried out by so called Sean Quinn supporters? What is the reasoning behind it all? Surely these new owners have safe guarded jobs and bringing prosperity to the area when it otherwise could be a wasteland.
Have the Quinn family spoken out against these attacks previously? The seriousness of the attacks would also lead you to think there is a degree of organisation behind them. It's not carried out by young lads if you know what I mean. Is paramilitary involvement suspected?

The Quinns spoke out about the attacks previously and I believe has done so again regarding this. And was quite clear that he was disgusted at it. While Kevin Lunney and Sean haven't seen eye to eye in recent years, he worked closely with him for 20 odd years prior and would have been very close with Kevin and the family. If it was done with some misguided attempt at vengeance for Sean, it was very wide of the mark and will have done more harm. Disgusting act that would make you wonder what people are capable of.

You have to say impartially that it takes a lot for people not to believe that deep in him somewhere, he's happy enough the people that he said stabbed him in the back and treated him like crap (to paraphrase) are getting tortured....now literally. He's made no secret he wants the business back.
People will obviously make their own decisions. But I think it's madness to think that he would get pleasure out of someone he's know for a lifetime getting treated like that. I think most people would be appalled by it. With regards to wanting the business back, that's true and I'm sure he's been working along quietly regarding that. He's smart enough to know this will have a negative effect on that process.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on September 19, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
This isn't reflecting on the Quinns well at all. The people who carried out this and other attacks are doing it for money. Either they're not being paid off or they are being paid to carry them out. There can be no doubt that paramilitaries are involved.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2019, 06:29:46 PM
A Solidarity march with Mr Lunney in Derrylin tomorrow per RTÉ News.
Will all those personalities who were supporting the Quinns a few years ago take part?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on September 19, 2019, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on September 19, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
This isn't reflecting on the Quinns well at all. The people who carried out this and other attacks are doing it for money. Either they're not being paid off or they are being paid to carry them out. There can be no doubt that paramilitaries are involved.
Who's paying these pipers?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on September 19, 2019, 09:38:40 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 19, 2019, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on September 19, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
This isn't reflecting on the Quinns well at all. The people who carried out this and other attacks are doing it for money. Either they're not being paid off or they are being paid to carry them out. There can be no doubt that paramilitaries are involved.
Who's paying these pipers?

Well they're either being paid or not being paid depending on which side they're on. Typical IRA modus operandi extort and victimise the very community they purport to protect.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dubh driocht on September 19, 2019, 10:07:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 19, 2019, 06:29:46 PM
A Solidarity march with Mr Lunney in Derrylin tomorrow per RTÉ News.
Will all those personalities who were supporting the Quinns a few years ago take part?
Fair question.  Just watched Prime Time.  A brutal attack on a man working for his community .The perpetrators and their supporters bring shame to our country.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2019, 10:28:57 PM
Hopefully the awful extreme brutality of this event will bring about an end to the disgusting campaign of intimidation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on September 19, 2019, 10:31:38 PM
Quote from: Dubh driocht on September 19, 2019, 10:07:37 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 19, 2019, 06:29:46 PM
A Solidarity march with Mr Lunney in Derrylin tomorrow per RTÉ News.
Will all those personalities who were supporting the Quinns a few years ago take part?
Fair question.  Just watched Prime Time.  A brutal attack on a man working for his community .The perpetrators and their supporters bring shame to our country.

I would expect the MP, the MLAs and councillors for the area to be in attendance.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2019, 10:35:19 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/stabbed-tortured-and-doused-in-bleach-kevin-lunney-attack-the-latest-in-long-line-of-chilling-incidents-to-hit-quinn-firm-38512966.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on September 20, 2019, 09:09:18 AM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/core-of-what-was-once-quinns-vast-empire-has-seen-earnings-quadruple-since-being-sold-38512952.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Aaron Boone on September 20, 2019, 09:56:05 AM
Derrylin is one long street to have a march on. Not as long as Cookstown mind.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cavan19 on September 20, 2019, 10:30:39 AM
Please quote the article in posts which are linked to articles behind paywalls.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on September 20, 2019, 10:58:12 AM
Quote from: Cavan19 on September 20, 2019, 10:30:39 AM
Please quote the article in posts which are linked to articles behind paywalls.

Eh?? Don't think they're behind paywalls... you just need a login
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cavan19 on September 20, 2019, 11:14:23 AM
Quote from: screenexile on September 20, 2019, 10:58:12 AM
Quote from: Cavan19 on September 20, 2019, 10:30:39 AM
Please quote the article in posts which are linked to articles behind paywalls.

Eh?? Don't think they're behind paywalls... you just need a login

Yeah i see that now.

Either way its a pain in the hole.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: RedHand88 on September 20, 2019, 11:40:20 AM
Quote from: trailer on September 19, 2019, 09:38:40 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 19, 2019, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on September 19, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
This isn't reflecting on the Quinns well at all. The people who carried out this and other attacks are doing it for money. Either they're not being paid off or they are being paid to carry them out. There can be no doubt that paramilitaries are involved.
Who's paying these pipers?

Well they're either being paid or not being paid depending on which side they're on. Typical IRA modus operandi extort and victimise the very community they purport to protect.

Is that you Jamie Bryson?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Owen Brannigan on September 21, 2019, 09:43:49 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on September 20, 2019, 11:40:20 AM
Quote from: trailer on September 19, 2019, 09:38:40 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 19, 2019, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: trailer on September 19, 2019, 12:49:41 PM
This isn't reflecting on the Quinns well at all. The people who carried out this and other attacks are doing it for money. Either they're not being paid off or they are being paid to carry them out. There can be no doubt that paramilitaries are involved.
Who's paying these pipers?

Well they're either being paid or not being paid depending on which side they're on. Typical IRA modus operandi extort and victimise the very community they purport to protect.

Is that you Jamie Bryson?

What he means is all paramilitaries extort and victimise the communities that they purport to protect and the IRA in whatever its current guise is no different. Ever wonder why majority SF represented areas rarely prosper when they were in power for over 10 years with full control of several ministries including the top posts?  Keep your people down, don't let them get comfortable, blame everyone else and then get their vote to keep it going. SF not alone in this strategy, the Labour Party in UK doing the same at moment to use Brexit to break the Tories.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Owen Brannigan on September 21, 2019, 09:45:07 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 19, 2019, 10:28:57 PM
Hopefully the awful extreme brutality of this event will bring about an end to the disgusting campaign of intimidation.

Like that has worked in this country in the past.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Owen Brannigan on September 21, 2019, 09:47:27 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 19, 2019, 11:44:35 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 19, 2019, 11:37:32 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 19, 2019, 11:16:58 AM
Quote from: TyroneOnlooker on September 19, 2019, 08:34:04 AM
Just reading the details of the attack in the paper. Absolutely barbaric, fingernails torn off, stabbed, bleach poured over him. I'm maybe a bit naive to this but are these attacks being carried out by so called Sean Quinn supporters? What is the reasoning behind it all? Surely these new owners have safe guarded jobs and bringing prosperity to the area when it otherwise could be a wasteland.
Have the Quinn family spoken out against these attacks previously? The seriousness of the attacks would also lead you to think there is a degree of organisation behind them. It's not carried out by young lads if you know what I mean. Is paramilitary involvement suspected?

The Quinns spoke out about the attacks previously and I believe has done so again regarding this. And was quite clear that he was disgusted at it. While Kevin Lunney and Sean haven't seen eye to eye in recent years, he worked closely with him for 20 odd years prior and would have been very close with Kevin and the family. If it was done with some misguided attempt at vengeance for Sean, it was very wide of the mark and will have done more harm. Disgusting act that would make you wonder what people are capable of.

You have to say impartially that it takes a lot for people not to believe that deep in him somewhere, he's happy enough the people that he said stabbed him in the back and treated him like crap (to paraphrase) are getting tortured....now literally. He's made no secret he wants the business back.
People will obviously make their own decisions. But I think it's madness to think that he would get pleasure out of someone he's know for a lifetime getting treated like that. I think most people would be appalled by it. With regards to wanting the business back, that's true and I'm sure he's been working along quietly regarding that. He's smart enough to know this will have a negative effect on that process.

If the Quinn's have nothing to do with the campaign, they may know who is behind it but will know why it is happening.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Carmen Stateside on September 21, 2019, 10:03:07 AM
Owen's obsession with Sinn Fein continues (yawn)  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on September 21, 2019, 12:42:25 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/columnists/lunney-was-assaulted-quinn-is-not-the-victim-952090.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gortnaleck on September 24, 2019, 01:49:43 AM
Could it be that the new regime has not the ability to come up with protection money. I imagine Seán could have access to whatever was needed but that now there is no place on the balance sheet for this transaction
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on September 24, 2019, 08:14:26 AM
This is a long thread and there are many informed posters about this whole accounting and business scam which the ordinary punter has had to bear the costs of to the tune of a levy of €70m p/a, until eternity.
Is there any compelling argument not to consider the most obvious suspects here, as being the nr 1 (by a distance) who are behind the hiring of these vicious thugs?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.

Would be absolutely and completed flabbergasted if it wasn't the Quinns to be perfectly honest. Want the business back, what better way than to make it completely odious and impossible to run? I wonder which hero might step up and offer to help clear the toxic spill?

Who indeed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on September 24, 2019, 11:44:34 AM
Quote from: gortnaleck on September 24, 2019, 01:49:43 AM
Could it be that the new regime has not the ability to come up with protection money. I imagine Seán could have access to whatever was needed but that now there is no place on the balance sheet for this transaction

No other business in the region has reported being bothered for protection money.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.

Would be absolutely and completed flabbergasted if it wasn't the Quinns to be perfectly honest. Want the business back, what better way than to make it completely odious and impossible to run? I wonder which hero might step up and offer to help clear the toxic spill?

Who indeed.

I personally doubt that it was the Quinns given the long relationship they have with Kevin Lunney. One of the daughters in particular is still close.
There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently.
Can never be sure obviously, but I would be surprised (and disgusted) if it traced back to the Quinns.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on September 24, 2019, 12:45:15 PM
The only real plausible motive I can come up with is that these attacks are being orchestrated by the Quinns or someone close to them in order to wrestle control back over their former business empire.

Otherwise why would these attacks be happening? Why did they cease when Quinn had a role back in the business? It all looks very, very shady for the Quinns.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on September 24, 2019, 12:51:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.

Would be absolutely and completed flabbergasted if it wasn't the Quinns to be perfectly honest. Want the business back, what better way than to make it completely odious and impossible to run? I wonder which hero might step up and offer to help clear the toxic spill?

Who indeed.

I personally doubt that it was the Quinns given the long relationship they have with Kevin Lunney. One of the daughters in particular is still close.
There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently.
Can never be sure obviously, but I would be surprised (and disgusted) if it traced back to the Quinns.

I don't see why the fact that they were once close would do anything to discount Quinn's involvement. It might in fact do more to explain it. Quinn feels betrayed that someone close to him has now usurped the business empire he built.

By some bizarre stretch the Quinns somehow believe they are victims here. They believe they have a divine right and entitlement to all the wealthy and power they once despite the fact they lost it all through greed and reckless gambling.

The Quinns got an awful amount of local support during their initial fall. I presume the nature of these attacks and their unwillingness to take their medicine would have lost that groundswell of support?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on September 24, 2019, 01:03:17 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.

Would be absolutely and completed flabbergasted if it wasn't the Quinns to be perfectly honest. Want the business back, what better way than to make it completely odious and impossible to run? I wonder which hero might step up and offer to help clear the toxic spill?

Who indeed.

I personally doubt that it was the Quinns given the long relationship they have with Kevin Lunney. One of the daughters in particular is still close.
There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently.
Can never be sure obviously, but I would be surprised (and disgusted) if it traced back to the Quinns.
Are you serious? This is a 'bit' more than a local spat against an individual who just happens to be chief operating officer of Quinn Industrial Holdings. Or perhaps the particularily barbaric attack on Lunney, threats made against the company directors and the number of attacks against the company are merely part of an elaborate smokescreen carried out by the dumbest local spat thugs in Irish history, who now find themselves public enemy  nr.1 n the middle of a PSNI/Garda hunt.

As regards the alleged long relationship Quinns have with Kevin Lunney, Sean Quinn was quoted in the Indo
Asked  if he has contacted Mr Lunney or had a message for his family, Sean Quinn said: "No. I have not been speaking to Kevin Lunney or any of the Lunneys now in five years."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 01:59:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on September 24, 2019, 12:51:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.

Would be absolutely and completed flabbergasted if it wasn't the Quinns to be perfectly honest. Want the business back, what better way than to make it completely odious and impossible to run? I wonder which hero might step up and offer to help clear the toxic spill?

Who indeed.

I personally doubt that it was the Quinns given the long relationship they have with Kevin Lunney. One of the daughters in particular is still close.
There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently.
Can never be sure obviously, but I would be surprised (and disgusted) if it traced back to the Quinns.

I don't see why the fact that they were once close would do anything to discount Quinn's involvement. It might in fact do more to explain it. Quinn feels betrayed that someone close to him has now usurped the business empire he built.

By some bizarre stretch the Quinns somehow believe they are victims here. They believe they have a divine right and entitlement to all the wealthy and power they once despite the fact they lost it all through greed and reckless gambling.

The Quinns got an awful amount of local support during their initial fall. I presume the nature of these attacks and their unwillingness to take their medicine would have lost that groundswell of support?

I don't think the Quinns see themselves as victims here at all. Do you honestly think that SQ believes that this sort of an attack is going to make him look like a suitable target for investment. It has damaged any opportunity he would have to try and get investment to buy the business back as it's been linked to him.
The Quinns have no divine right to wealth any more than anyone else. But they have tried to start again and have managed to build up a fairly successful betting business although at a different level to the Quinn group at it's peak.
With regards to the local support, there would have been a fair bit of hostility to Kevin Lunney in the local community. I think the hostility to KL and the other Directors has mellowed as a result of this attack. There still seems to be support for the Quinns but I'm sure you won't be the only one linking the attacks to them so I'm sure that will have some effect.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 02:05:21 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 24, 2019, 01:03:17 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.

Would be absolutely and completed flabbergasted if it wasn't the Quinns to be perfectly honest. Want the business back, what better way than to make it completely odious and impossible to run? I wonder which hero might step up and offer to help clear the toxic spill?

Who indeed.

I personally doubt that it was the Quinns given the long relationship they have with Kevin Lunney. One of the daughters in particular is still close.
There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently.
Can never be sure obviously, but I would be surprised (and disgusted) if it traced back to the Quinns.
Are you serious? This is a 'bit' more than a local spat against an individual who just happens to be chief operating officer of Quinn Industrial Holdings. Or perhaps the particularily barbaric attack on Lunney, threats made against the company directors and the number of attacks against the company are merely part of an elaborate smokescreen carried out by the dumbest local spat thugs in Irish history, who now find themselves public enemy  nr.1 n the middle of a PSNI/Garda hunt.

As regards the alleged long relationship Quinns have with Kevin Lunney, Sean Quinn was quoted in the Indo
Asked  if he has contacted Mr Lunney or had a message for his family, Sean Quinn said: "No. I have not been speaking to Kevin Lunney or any of the Lunneys now in five years."

Am I serious about what? 


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on September 24, 2019, 02:09:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 02:05:21 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 24, 2019, 01:03:17 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.

Would be absolutely and completed flabbergasted if it wasn't the Quinns to be perfectly honest. Want the business back, what better way than to make it completely odious and impossible to run? I wonder which hero might step up and offer to help clear the toxic spill?

Who indeed.

I personally doubt that it was the Quinns given the long relationship they have with Kevin Lunney. One of the daughters in particular is still close.
There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently.
Can never be sure obviously, but I would be surprised (and disgusted) if it traced back to the Quinns.
Are you serious? This is a 'bit' more than a local spat against an individual who just happens to be chief operating officer of Quinn Industrial Holdings. Or perhaps the particularily barbaric attack on Lunney, threats made against the company directors and the number of attacks against the company are merely part of an elaborate smokescreen carried out by the dumbest local spat thugs in Irish history, who now find themselves public enemy  nr.1 n the middle of a PSNI/Garda hunt.

As regards the alleged long relationship Quinns have with Kevin Lunney, Sean Quinn was quoted in the Indo
Asked  if he has contacted Mr Lunney or had a message for his family, Sean Quinn said: "No. I have not been speaking to Kevin Lunney or any of the Lunneys now in five years."

Am I serious about what?

This!

There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently

a punch an a thrown coffee from a 21 year old escalates into full on Paramilitary torture?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 02:12:07 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on September 24, 2019, 02:09:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 02:05:21 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 24, 2019, 01:03:17 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.

Would be absolutely and completed flabbergasted if it wasn't the Quinns to be perfectly honest. Want the business back, what better way than to make it completely odious and impossible to run? I wonder which hero might step up and offer to help clear the toxic spill?

Who indeed.

I personally doubt that it was the Quinns given the long relationship they have with Kevin Lunney. One of the daughters in particular is still close.
There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently.
Can never be sure obviously, but I would be surprised (and disgusted) if it traced back to the Quinns.
Are you serious? This is a 'bit' more than a local spat against an individual who just happens to be chief operating officer of Quinn Industrial Holdings. Or perhaps the particularily barbaric attack on Lunney, threats made against the company directors and the number of attacks against the company are merely part of an elaborate smokescreen carried out by the dumbest local spat thugs in Irish history, who now find themselves public enemy  nr.1 n the middle of a PSNI/Garda hunt.

As regards the alleged long relationship Quinns have with Kevin Lunney, Sean Quinn was quoted in the Indo
Asked  if he has contacted Mr Lunney or had a message for his family, Sean Quinn said: "No. I have not been speaking to Kevin Lunney or any of the Lunneys now in five years."

Am I serious about what?

This!

There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently

a punch an a thrown coffee from a 21 year old escalates into full on Paramilitary torture?

Enough for the PSNI to be investigating that line anyway. If you think they're on the wrong track I'm sure they would be keen to hear why?  It might be worth adding the local spat is with a local family with an "alleged" Republican background. And runs to more than the publicized attack. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on September 24, 2019, 02:31:38 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 01:59:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on September 24, 2019, 12:51:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.

Would be absolutely and completed flabbergasted if it wasn't the Quinns to be perfectly honest. Want the business back, what better way than to make it completely odious and impossible to run? I wonder which hero might step up and offer to help clear the toxic spill?

Who indeed.

I personally doubt that it was the Quinns given the long relationship they have with Kevin Lunney. One of the daughters in particular is still close.
There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently.
Can never be sure obviously, but I would be surprised (and disgusted) if it traced back to the Quinns.

I don't see why the fact that they were once close would do anything to discount Quinn's involvement. It might in fact do more to explain it. Quinn feels betrayed that someone close to him has now usurped the business empire he built.

By some bizarre stretch the Quinns somehow believe they are victims here. They believe they have a divine right and entitlement to all the wealthy and power they once despite the fact they lost it all through greed and reckless gambling.

The Quinns got an awful amount of local support during their initial fall. I presume the nature of these attacks and their unwillingness to take their medicine would have lost that groundswell of support?

I don't think the Quinns see themselves as victims here at all. Do you honestly think that SQ believes that this sort of an attack is going to make him look like a suitable target for investment. It has damaged any opportunity he would have to try and get investment to buy the business back as it's been linked to him.
The Quinns have no divine right to wealth any more than anyone else. But they have tried to start again and have managed to build up a fairly successful betting business although at a different level to the Quinn group at it's peak.
With regards to the local support, there would have been a fair bit of hostility to Kevin Lunney in the local community. I think the hostility to KL and the other Directors has mellowed as a result of this attack. There still seems to be support for the Quinns but I'm sure you won't be the only one linking the attacks to them so I'm sure that will have some effect.

Are you the Quinn Family PR department?

That leads right out of the top drawer of propaganda for them.

The Quinn family showed utter contempt to the taxpayer when they stripped assets and hid funds to enable their lavish lifestyles that should have been used to offset the debt and damage their greed and reckless gambling caused.

They are a reprehensible group of people so I don't get how you can defend their actions with regard to the fallout from their business collapse.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 02:32:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on September 24, 2019, 02:31:38 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 01:59:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on September 24, 2019, 12:51:28 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 12:04:19 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 23, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
I think it's well accepted that it's ex provos involved in criminality and dissidents who are perpetrating these acts but they are just basically the thugs for hire.

What really interests me is the motives for it? Obviously they get paid for it and will get looked after for this campaign but who is behind it, who is really pulling the strings. For me, there is only one group of people with the motive for it but they would hardly be that stupid and desparate to undertake this barbaric course of action? I know the media have been pointing the finger at a well known criminal as the main man but I find it hard to see what he gains from it other than he is the hired muscle for someone higher up.

I'm utterly perplexed by it all.

Would be absolutely and completed flabbergasted if it wasn't the Quinns to be perfectly honest. Want the business back, what better way than to make it completely odious and impossible to run? I wonder which hero might step up and offer to help clear the toxic spill?

Who indeed.

I personally doubt that it was the Quinns given the long relationship they have with Kevin Lunney. One of the daughters in particular is still close.
There's another line being looked into regarding another family feud that has been on-going with the Lunney's and another local family. The history of which Kevin was attached earlier this year and had his nose broken as a result. I believe there's on-going legal action regarding it currently.
Can never be sure obviously, but I would be surprised (and disgusted) if it traced back to the Quinns.

I don't see why the fact that they were once close would do anything to discount Quinn's involvement. It might in fact do more to explain it. Quinn feels betrayed that someone close to him has now usurped the business empire he built.

By some bizarre stretch the Quinns somehow believe they are victims here. They believe they have a divine right and entitlement to all the wealthy and power they once despite the fact they lost it all through greed and reckless gambling.

The Quinns got an awful amount of local support during their initial fall. I presume the nature of these attacks and their unwillingness to take their medicine would have lost that groundswell of support?

I don't think the Quinns see themselves as victims here at all. Do you honestly think that SQ believes that this sort of an attack is going to make him look like a suitable target for investment. It has damaged any opportunity he would have to try and get investment to buy the business back as it's been linked to him.
The Quinns have no divine right to wealth any more than anyone else. But they have tried to start again and have managed to build up a fairly successful betting business although at a different level to the Quinn group at it's peak.
With regards to the local support, there would have been a fair bit of hostility to Kevin Lunney in the local community. I think the hostility to KL and the other Directors has mellowed as a result of this attack. There still seems to be support for the Quinns but I'm sure you won't be the only one linking the attacks to them so I'm sure that will have some effect.

Are you the Quinn Family PR department?

That leads right out of the top drawer of propaganda for them.

The Quinn family showed utter contempt to the taxpayer when they stripped assets and hid funds to enable their lavish lifestyles that should have been used to offset the debt and damage their greed and reckless gambling caused.

They are a reprehensible group of people so I don't get how you can defend their actions with regard to the fallout from their business collapse.

No. They couldn't afford me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 24, 2019, 03:04:17 PM
I duno lad, talk they've a right wee set up out in Sunny Beach that makes plenty of cash
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Smokin Joe on September 24, 2019, 03:07:28 PM
In fairness supersarsfields has been very pro-Quinn right from the start of this thread.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on September 24, 2019, 03:12:12 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on September 24, 2019, 03:07:28 PM
In fairness supersarsfields has been very pro-Quinn right from the start of this thread.

Yeah, I've never hidden that. Worked with them for a number of years, so accept my view will carry a certain bias.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Esmarelda on September 24, 2019, 04:35:49 PM
I think some posters should go to the authorities with whatever information they have. There's seems to be a lot of people amazed if it was/wasn't the Quinns. This and the gang involved being clearly dissident republicans. Should have this all wrapped up shortly.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on September 24, 2019, 04:41:28 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 24, 2019, 04:35:49 PM
I think some posters should go to the authorities with whatever information they have. There's seems to be a lot of people amazed if it was/wasn't the Quinns. This and the gang involved being clearly dissident republicans. Should have this all wrapped up shortly.

Motive.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on October 06, 2019, 02:36:09 PM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/crossborder-arsonist-paid-20000-a-time-for-70-attacks-on-quinn-firms-38566764.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on October 29, 2019, 11:15:25 PM
Further death threats.

Hopefully they can get those responsible, whoever it is orchestrating it seems to have deep pockets as the people carrying out the attacks are just thugs for hire.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:22:00 AM
Hard to get them whenOmerts rules :-\
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ardtole on October 30, 2019, 07:14:18 AM
Just wondering, could it be possible that Quinn's were behind the initial attacks. Now that things have got out of hand and the spotlight is on them, and they want a cessation of the violence, the gang they were initially funding are now blackmailing the Quinn's by continuing the attacks and putting the Quinn's under the spotlight even more.

I might be wide off the mark but stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on October 30, 2019, 09:19:52 AM
Quote from: ardtole on October 30, 2019, 07:14:18 AM
Just wondering, could it be possible that Quinn's were behind the initial attacks. Now that things have got out of hand and the spotlight is on them, and they want a cessation of the violence, the gang they were initially funding are now blackmailing the Quinn's by continuing the attacks and putting the Quinn's under the spotlight even more.

I might be wide off the mark but stranger things have happened.

I wouldn't think so.

It's clear the gang are being bankrolled and it seems there is only one outcome suitable for them and their paymaster.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
Brian Darcy, Micky Harte and all the others who were out marching to support the Quinns are very quiet on the campaign of violence, kidnapping, death threats etc.
Some belt of lawlessness these days stretching from Down through Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Fermanagh.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on October 30, 2019, 10:01:56 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
Brian Darcy, Micky Harte and all the others who were out marching to support the Quinns are very quiet on the campaign of violence, kidnapping, death threats etc.
Some belt of lawlessness these days stretching from Down through Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Fermanagh.

Brian Darcy was on the radio at the weekend saying there's wrong on both sides.
He did also condemn the attack on Kevin Lunney I should add.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:21:10 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on October 30, 2019, 10:01:56 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
Brian Darcy, Micky Harte and all the others who were out marching to support the Quinns are very quiet on the campaign of violence, kidnapping, death threats etc.
Some belt of lawlessness these days stretching from Down through Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Fermanagh.

Brian Darcy was on the radio at the weekend saying there's wrong on both sides.
He did also condemn the attack on Kevin Lunney I should add.

Has there been no movement of the original attack?  I thought they got somebody buying industrial bleach and a trailer etc.?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on October 30, 2019, 11:16:40 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
Brian Darcy, Micky Harte and all the others who were out marching to support the Quinns are very quiet on the campaign of violence, kidnapping, death threats etc.
Some belt of lawlessness these days stretching from Down through Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Fermanagh.
In fairness nobody gave a shite about the campaign of violence and death threats until it escalated into terrorist-style kidnapping and torture.  When the authorities seem to be dragging their heels in response to it, individual citizens would be very foolhardy to stick their own necks out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whitey on October 30, 2019, 01:31:03 PM
I don't have time to read the entire thread

Can someone provide a synopsis of what's going on here
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on October 30, 2019, 02:10:31 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
Brian Darcy, Micky Harte and all the others who were out marching to support the Quinns are very quiet on the campaign of violence, kidnapping, death threats etc.
Some belt of lawlessness these days stretching from Down through Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Fermanagh.

Wasn't that long ago there were vigilante hoods down in Roscommon bashing grippers at an eviction, maybe you forgot to add Roscommon to your list there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 03:29:21 PM
Nice try to deflect but the "vigilante hoods" and the "grippers" were all imported.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on October 30, 2019, 03:35:22 PM
The boys who did in Kevin Lunney were apparently imported too, although whoever organised them may not have been.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on October 30, 2019, 04:59:59 PM
Quote from: five points on October 30, 2019, 03:35:22 PM
The boys who did in Kevin Lunney were apparently imported too, although whoever organised them may not have been.

At least one of them is a local apparently.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Will it ever end on October 30, 2019, 06:27:06 PM
I find it astounding that given the level of intimidation these guys have faced - which is very public - scalding water thrown over some of them in pubs / restaurants- the Gardai / PSNI haven't acted ... surely the dogs in the street know & it wouldn't take Scotland Yard to string a case together to set down a marker - to send death threats into the Irish News is just laughing in the face of all that's went before...

John Bosco O Hagan's interview was very interesting in yesterday's Irish News & paints a very murky picture
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: redzone on October 30, 2019, 08:56:53 PM
Could u post up that interview
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Will it ever end on October 30, 2019, 09:07:30 PM
Sorry not tech savvy at all - maybe one of the other contributors will be able to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dec on October 30, 2019, 09:10:22 PM
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/10/28/news/john-bosco-o-hagan-i-wish-i-had-never-tried-to-help-sean-quinn-1748052/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on October 30, 2019, 09:21:51 PM
John Bosco is one of the finest gentlemen I have ever had the pleasure of meeting! Its obvious his trust has been shattered and he now regrets any well intentioned association with the Quinns at this stage.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 09:32:07 PM
Quote from: bannside on October 30, 2019, 09:21:51 PM
John Bosco is one of the finest gentlemen I have ever had the pleasure of meeting! Its obvious his trust has been shattered and he now regrets any well intentioned association with the Quinns at this stage.

Was that meeting he referenced recorded in some way?

Obviously he feels used and he must have clocked up some miles, never mind energy in trying to help out. 

He has a big business of his own and his charity fund-raising over this past few years has been fantastic.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Will it ever end on October 30, 2019, 09:50:04 PM
It must have been recorded & then written up verbatim.

Lest we forget Quinn's daughter was employed by John Bosco during the worst of the fall out - a really genuine man unfortunately used in a wicked power play by Quinn
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: under the bar on October 30, 2019, 10:22:15 PM
Quote from: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:21:10 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on October 30, 2019, 10:01:56 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
Brian Darcy, Micky Harte and all the others who were out marching to support the Quinns are very quiet on the campaign of violence, kidnapping, death threats etc.
Some belt of lawlessness these days stretching from Down through Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Fermanagh.

Brian Darcy was on the radio at the weekend saying there's wrong on both sides.
He did also condemn the attack on Kevin Lunney I should add.

Has there been no movement of the original attack?  I thought they got somebody buying industrial bleach and a trailer etc.?

So what's the different between normal bleach and industrial bleach or did you just add the word 'industrial' to make it seem more intriguing?  ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Scoring Zone on October 30, 2019, 10:48:22 PM
Quote from: five points on October 30, 2019, 11:16:40 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 09:52:58 AM
Brian Darcy, Micky Harte and all the others who were out marching to support the Quinns are very quiet on the campaign of violence, kidnapping, death threats etc.
Some belt of lawlessness these days stretching from Down through Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Fermanagh.
In fairness nobody gave a shite about the campaign of violence and death threats until it escalated into terrorist-style kidnapping and torture.  When the authorities seem to be dragging their heels in response to it, individual citizens would be very foolhardy to stick their own necks out.

This is the real question, the authorities are toothless and gutless, to me there is a 'sure let them ones handle it' sort of vibe of it and regarding the PSNI - realistically if they can't catch a squad of eejits in a low loader and digger carving up bank machines then they will not find anything here. They can only catch ye speeding and that's when you are coming to them ffs.

And then they have the audacity to say in the paper yesterday that the attacks came out of the blue - just a few years of threats and intimidation, cars burned out and an assault in a shop but out of the blue all the same

Jesus wept
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: under the bar on October 30, 2019, 10:53:56 PM
So what is the word on the street Huggy?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on October 30, 2019, 10:56:22 PM
Going into a shop in mullahoran and buying a bottle of bleach is yet to be declared a crime unfortunately
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Aaron Boone on October 30, 2019, 11:22:16 PM
Drove from Enniskillen to Ballyconnell this week, never saw a copper of any jurisdiction. It's a very remote area in the dark evening.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mourne Red on October 31, 2019, 10:05:11 AM
If it were me I'd take the jobs and work out of Fermanagh/Cavan area as a response to the violence and crap they are getting from these masked men - Tables would be turned then and those idiots would be getting hidings off their own
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 10:08:50 AM
Quote from: Mourne Red on October 31, 2019, 10:05:11 AM
If it were me I'd take the jobs and work out of Fermanagh/Cavan area as a response to the violence and crap they are getting from these masked men - Tables would be turned then and those idiots would be getting hidings off their own

I would think that it is little to do with local anger now and more to do with thugs for hire being contracted to carry these acts out for the benefit of who is behind them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mourne Red on October 31, 2019, 10:26:52 AM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 10:08:50 AM
Quote from: Mourne Red on October 31, 2019, 10:05:11 AM
If it were me I'd take the jobs and work out of Fermanagh/Cavan area as a response to the violence and crap they are getting from these masked men - Tables would be turned then and those idiots would be getting hidings off their own

I would think that it is little to do with local anger now and more to do with thugs for hire being contracted to carry these acts out for the benefit of who is behind them.

Ohh I know its little to do with locals but I'm sure someone around the area knows who it is and if thousands of locals were going to lose their jobs the people hiring the thugs would be outed and sorted out quickly enough
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 11:49:56 AM
Quote from: Itchy on October 30, 2019, 04:59:59 PM
Quote from: five points on October 30, 2019, 03:35:22 PM
The boys who did in Kevin Lunney were apparently imported too, although whoever organised them may not have been.

At least one of them is a local apparently.
A blow-in more than a local, I'm told.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 05:08:14 PM
Quote from: Mourne Red on October 31, 2019, 10:26:52 AM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 10:08:50 AM
Quote from: Mourne Red on October 31, 2019, 10:05:11 AM
If it were me I'd take the jobs and work out of Fermanagh/Cavan area as a response to the violence and crap they are getting from these masked men - Tables would be turned then and those idiots would be getting hidings off their own

I would think that it is little to do with local anger now and more to do with thugs for hire being contracted to carry these acts out for the benefit of who is behind them.

But thousands aren't going to lose their jobs. Not sure how local the thugs for hire are but I would believe the paymaster has themselves far enough removed than it to be traced back to them, most likely runs down through a number of intermediaries.

The Quinns had a very elaborate way of hiding their assets, you could imagine that if they were behind this campaign then they would be directing it from afar with scant traceability.

Ohh I know its little to do with locals but I'm sure someone around the area knows who it is and if thousands of locals were going to lose their jobs the people hiring the thugs would be outed and sorted out quickly enough
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:30:08 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

The last time  the "Mad for limelight" Father Oliver spoke to the media was when he went to the Nigerian Missions in Minna around 1984.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

Don't for a second believe that.

It may well be a CIRA group carrying out these attacks but there has to be a very wealthy paymaster behind it, if it was a dissident or paramilitary group then you can guarantee they would milk any propaganda going with it - it is how such organisations work. They're acting under orders and the signs would strong seem to hint at the Quinn family. I don't think Quinn Snr has been at all convincing in his mealy mouthed condemnation and the information discussed in the media this week would seem to making very clear inferences as to who is behind it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 09:11:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

Don't for a second believe that.

It may well be a CIRA group carrying out these attacks but there has to be a very wealthy paymaster behind it, if it was a dissident or paramilitary group then you can guarantee they would milk any propaganda going with it - it is how such organisations work. They're acting under orders and the signs would strong seem to hint at the Quinn family. I don't think Quinn Snr has been at all convincing in his mealy mouthed condemnation and the information discussed in the media this week would seem to making very clear inferences as to who is behind it.

Theres not a single shred of evidence to back up what you wrote.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on October 31, 2019, 09:21:48 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.
And assaulting the management will stop the assets being sold?
Poorest excuse I have heard yet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 09:25:25 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 31, 2019, 09:21:48 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.
And assaulting the management will stop the assets being sold?
Poorest excuse I have heard yet.

It's not an excuse, I have nothing but contempt for these morons. However they are morons and act like morons. Ye are giving them too much credit if you think there is an end plan. Its caveman stuff, get these out and get Quinn in is their simplistic outlook.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 31, 2019, 09:52:35 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 09:25:25 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 31, 2019, 09:21:48 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.
And assaulting the management will stop the assets being sold?
Poorest excuse I have heard yet.

It's not an excuse, I have nothing but contempt for these morons. However they are morons and act like morons. Ye are giving them too much credit if you think there is an end plan. Its caveman stuff, get these out and get Quinn in is their simplistic outlook.
I also think there's a feeling of contempt with the senior management, in particular Kevin Lunney & Liam McCaffrey with parts of the local community. Rightly or wrongly some people believe their  actions in marginalising SQ and finally removing him from the business from his consultancy role left a bad taste. It's a divided area at the minute.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 09:53:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 09:11:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

Don't for a second believe that.

It may well be a CIRA group carrying out these attacks but there has to be a very wealthy paymaster behind it, if it was a dissident or paramilitary group then you can guarantee they would milk any propaganda going with it - it is how such organisations work. They're acting under orders and the signs would strong seem to hint at the Quinn family. I don't think Quinn Snr has been at all convincing in his mealy mouthed condemnation and the information discussed in the media this week would seem to making very clear inferences as to who is behind it.

Theres not a single shred of evidence to back up what you wrote.

Who do QIH directors think is behind the attacks?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 10:20:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 09:53:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 09:11:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

Don't for a second believe that.

It may well be a CIRA group carrying out these attacks but there has to be a very wealthy paymaster behind it, if it was a dissident or paramilitary group then you can guarantee they would milk any propaganda going with it - it is how such organisations work. They're acting under orders and the signs would strong seem to hint at the Quinn family. I don't think Quinn Snr has been at all convincing in his mealy mouthed condemnation and the information discussed in the media this week would seem to making very clear inferences as to who is behind it.

Theres not a single shred of evidence to back up what you wrote.

Who do QIH directors think is behind the attacks?

You'll have to ask them that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 10:21:25 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 10:20:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 09:53:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 09:11:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

Don't for a second believe that.

It may well be a CIRA group carrying out these attacks but there has to be a very wealthy paymaster behind it, if it was a dissident or paramilitary group then you can guarantee they would milk any propaganda going with it - it is how such organisations work. They're acting under orders and the signs would strong seem to hint at the Quinn family. I don't think Quinn Snr has been at all convincing in his mealy mouthed condemnation and the information discussed in the media this week would seem to making very clear inferences as to who is behind it.

Theres not a single shred of evidence to back up what you wrote.

Who do QIH directors think is behind the attacks?

You'll have to ask them that.

Did you see John McCartin on RTE tonight?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on October 31, 2019, 10:33:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 10:21:25 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 10:20:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 09:53:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 09:11:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

Don't for a second believe that.

It may well be a CIRA group carrying out these attacks but there has to be a very wealthy paymaster behind it, if it was a dissident or paramilitary group then you can guarantee they would milk any propaganda going with it - it is how such organisations work. They're acting under orders and the signs would strong seem to hint at the Quinn family. I don't think Quinn Snr has been at all convincing in his mealy mouthed condemnation and the information discussed in the media this week would seem to making very clear inferences as to who is behind it.

Theres not a single shred of evidence to back up what you wrote.

Who do QIH directors think is behind the attacks?

You'll have to ask them that.

Did you see John McCartin on RTE tonight?
It suits John McCartin's agenda to point the finger at SQ. They have been trying to demonise him in the local community for years. (TBF he has done the same with them). It's a battle of hearts and minds.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 01, 2019, 08:48:25 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 31, 2019, 10:33:07 PM
It's a battle of hearts and minds.

Not any longer it isn't.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on November 01, 2019, 09:34:12 AM
Why does SQ think he has a right to come back in?  He gambled big, he lost and he's now deservedly paying the price.

As far as I can see, the group of companies is doing absolutely fine without him.

John Bosco O'Hagan's piece was very telling.  There is not a bigger gentleman in this country.  He tried his best to help him (for no personal financial gain).

He and his team got SQ into a position where both he and the son had 500k salaries per year and SQ threw it back into his face because he wasn't made king dick.

Seems like a bit of a cnut to me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 09:43:46 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 31, 2019, 10:33:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 10:21:25 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 10:20:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 09:53:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 09:11:14 PM
Quote from: Angelo on October 31, 2019, 06:43:43 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

Don't for a second believe that.

It may well be a CIRA group carrying out these attacks but there has to be a very wealthy paymaster behind it, if it was a dissident or paramilitary group then you can guarantee they would milk any propaganda going with it - it is how such organisations work. They're acting under orders and the signs would strong seem to hint at the Quinn family. I don't think Quinn Snr has been at all convincing in his mealy mouthed condemnation and the information discussed in the media this week would seem to making very clear inferences as to who is behind it.

Theres not a single shred of evidence to back up what you wrote.

Who do QIH directors think is behind the attacks?

You'll have to ask them that.

Did you see John McCartin on RTE tonight?
It suits John McCartin's agenda to point the finger at SQ. They have been trying to demonise him in the local community for years. (TBF he has done the same with them). It's a battle of hearts and minds.

- Sean Quinn lost his business empire through greed and reckless gambling
- He and the rest of his family then tried to frustrate and obstruct any legal proceedings when their debt came calling, they used elaborate schemes to try and hide and move their assets and wealth. The taxpayer had to pick up an enormous tab for the actions of Quinn and his family
- Quinn and his family are still super rich, they reneged on their debts
- The people of Cavan/Fermanagh were worried about the loss of jobs due to the collapse of Quinn and his business empire
- Many people came out and supported Quinn by various means in this time with particular interest to saving his business empire
- A number of these people and 3 former Quinn management team employees set about trying to take over the business with the provision that Quinn could buy it back when he is on his own two feet.
- The  3 former Quinn management team members (including Kevin Lunney, Dara O'Reilly) received a 22% shareholding in conjunction with a takeover bid from an American investment fund. They did not have any voting rights, did not have to pay any equity for their shares and there were clear stipulations they could not transfer their shares to a 3rd party.
- The 3 directors claim they took over the business to keep employment in the local area (they have succeeded) and keep the businesses alive in the local areas (they have done that and business is performing very well by all accounts despite the nonsense unfolding)
- Quinn came in as an external consultant played 500k a year and effectively wanted to call all the shots which was undermining the management team
- This caused loggerheds with the American owners and management team and the arrangement ended
- Quinn then claimed he was betrayed as the directors promised to hand over their shareholdings once they acquired the company. The directors claim that the deal was with the aim of Quinn being able to repurchase the company from the American firm whenever he gets back on his feet.
- The violence an intimidation starts back up again when Quinn departs and blames the directors

Quinn is absolute scum. He lost his business empire through reckless gambling, engaged in all sorts of criminal activity in hiding his assets and money so he wouldn't have to pay back his debts, this in the middle of a financial crisis where the ordinary man was struggling badly. He ripped off the Irish tax payer to the tune of billions as a result. He then wanted and felt he was entitled to get his business empire that he had lost and no longer owned, he expected to get it back for a song.

Now, I'd like to think better of the people of Cavan and Fermanagh. I would like to think that the vast majority of them now see the sort of nasty, vindictive and cowardly person Sean Quinn is. The jobs are back there, the Quinn businesses are back there performing well and should continue to provide steady employment for years to come. So what possible reason is there for the people of this area to going around initiating a campaign of brutal violence and intimidation on people who have steadied economic interests in the area and sustained employment in that area. From what I understand, many people who worked there in the boom times are back working there.

I happen to think that the people of Cavan and Fermanagh aren't by and large violent Sean Quinn sympathisers and that this campaign of violence is simply being carried out by a bunch of thugs for hire which is being bankrolled, along with an intense propaganda campaign, by a very wealthy benefactor who stands to gain from the business empire switching hands. It's the only reasonable conclusion I can come to and I have heard some very tall tales regarding other explanations in recent weeks.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 09:51:16 AM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 09:25:25 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 31, 2019, 09:21:48 PM
Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.
And assaulting the management will stop the assets being sold?
Poorest excuse I have heard yet.

It's not an excuse, I have nothing but contempt for these morons. However they are morons and act like morons. Ye are giving them too much credit if you think there is an end plan. Its caveman stuff, get these out and get Quinn in is their simplistic outlook.

What I think is that they are thugs for hire, being paid on retainer to continue and escalate this campaign of violence and intimidation against the current QIH management team. Their end game is that they hope this will cause them to give up and walk away to regain a normal life, their hope is that potential investors will be put off by the same campaign being launched against them, the hope is that it will allow SQ and his family to repurchase their former business empire for a song.

Tony Lunney, director and brother of Kevin Lunney, spoke about the attack on Channel 4 new lately, he said the attackers were very calm and forthright that they were there to do a job, that's all it was to them - it doesn't really come across as some sort of impassioned Quinn vigilantes, now does it?

It's very clear only one person and one family will benefit from the perceived aims of this campaign of violence and intimidation and SQ has been very mealy mouthed in condemning this campaign.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 01, 2019, 10:20:22 AM
Nail on head Angelo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 10:42:37 AM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 08:48:25 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 31, 2019, 10:33:07 PM
It's a battle of hearts and minds.

Not any longer it isn't.

It still is. Why do you think the community is split. If you think Liam McCaffrey, Dara O'Riley and Kevin Lunney have full support in the local community then I'll politely disagree.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnnycool on November 01, 2019, 10:52:16 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 10:42:37 AM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 08:48:25 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 31, 2019, 10:33:07 PM
It's a battle of hearts and minds.

Not any longer it isn't.

It still is. Why do you think the community is split. If you think Liam McCaffrey, Dara O'Riley and Kevin Lunney have full support in the local community then I'll politely disagree.

Why is that? What did they do to irk the local community?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 10:53:41 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 01, 2019, 09:34:12 AM
Why does SQ think he has a right to come back in?  He gambled big, he lost and he's now deservedly paying the price.

As far as I can see, the group of companies is doing absolutely fine without him.

John Bosco O'Hagan's piece was very telling.  There is not a bigger gentleman in this country.  He tried his best to help him (for no personal financial gain).

He and his team got SQ into a position where both he and the son had 500k salaries per year and SQ threw it back into his face because he wasn't made king dick.

Seems like a bit of a cnut to me.
SQ had backed the managerial buy out as they supported the return of him to ownership initially. He was to return in a consultancy capacity at the start with a long term aim to try and build back into a position where he could try and buy the business back with financial backing. However when he returned he was marginalised by the team and basically told that he was there to keep up appearances. SQ wasn't prepared to do that so the relationship went south from there and He walked. You can argue that he had no right to anything and fair enough. But many people supported Quinn's return and believe he was shafted once they got the deal through and had used him to ensure support by employees and the local community.

Edit - Johnny this might answer your question as well.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 01, 2019, 10:55:15 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 10:42:37 AM

It still is. Why do you think the community is split. If you think Liam McCaffrey, Dara O'Riley and Kevin Lunney have full support in the local community then I'll politely disagree.

Sean Quinn is 72 next month. It's now 8 years since he filed for bankruptcy. His son doesn't appear capable of running a big business. It's fanciful to believe that they can go back to running the businesses as before, especially by a groundswell of public sympathy that has largely if not fully evaporated after the attack on Lunney.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 11:03:20 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 10:53:41 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 01, 2019, 09:34:12 AM
Why does SQ think he has a right to come back in?  He gambled big, he lost and he's now deservedly paying the price.

As far as I can see, the group of companies is doing absolutely fine without him.

John Bosco O'Hagan's piece was very telling.  There is not a bigger gentleman in this country.  He tried his best to help him (for no personal financial gain).

He and his team got SQ into a position where both he and the son had 500k salaries per year and SQ threw it back into his face because he wasn't made king dick.

Seems like a bit of a cnut to me.
SQ had backed the managerial buy out as they supported the return of him to ownership initially. He was to return in a consultancy capacity at the start with a long term aim to try and build back into a position where he could try and buy the business back with financial backing. However when he returned he was marginalised by the team and basically told that he was there to keep up appearances. SQ wasn't prepared to do that so the relationship went south from there and He walked. You can argue that he had no right to anything and fair enough. But many people supported Quinn's return and believe he was shafted once they got the deal through and had used him to ensure support by employees and the local community.

What is the story?

Did the lads tell Quinn at the start they were getting the company into shape again, then he was to take back control of the business?

Or did the lads use him and thought we can move this business on ourselves, which they seem to have done regarding secure employment and creating more jobs.

Something has went wrong somewhere and the 2 sides are saying different things.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 01, 2019, 11:37:21 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sign-near-border-about-quinn-directors-removed-by-gardaí-1.4069134?mode=amp

"Expences" ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 10:42:37 AM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 08:48:25 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on October 31, 2019, 10:33:07 PM
It's a battle of hearts and minds.

Not any longer it isn't.

It still is. Why do you think the community is split. If you think Liam McCaffrey, Dara O'Riley and Kevin Lunney have full support in the local community then I'll politely disagree.

Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.

What's their issue with Kevin Lunney and Liam McCaffrey?

Let us not forget that Quinn defrauded the state for billions, lost his business empire, was aided from afar to help him out of this hole, was landed with a fantastic external consultant role and then expected to get his business back for a song.

After this broke down a renewed campaign of violence and intimidation against the current management team started up again. Do you believe the people carrying out these attacks are Quinn Cult members or are the merely thugs for hire?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.

What's their issue with Kevin Lunney and Liam McCaffrey?

Let us not forget that Quinn defrauded the state for billions, lost his business empire, was aided from afar to help him out of this hole, was landed with a fantastic external consultant role and then expected to get his business back for a song.

After this broke down a renewed campaign of violence and intimidation against the current management team started up again. Do you believe the people carrying out these attacks are Quinn Cult members or are the merely thugs for hire?
I've explained above why I think theres issues with Kl & LMcC. The fantastic external consultancy role never materialised and you could agree that he could have taken the money and left them to it. But that wasn't the agreement they had.

I've no idea who's carrying out the attack's.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 01, 2019, 01:23:56 PM
Maybe it's disgruntled Insurance payers who are paying a levy to make up for the Quinn Cowboy Insurance Company ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnnycool on November 01, 2019, 01:24:10 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 01, 2019, 11:37:21 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sign-near-border-about-quinn-directors-removed-by-gardaí-1.4069134?mode=amp

"Expences" ::)

(https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.4069133.1572614191!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg)


Proofreader required for a vigilante gang in Fermanagh/Cavan area.

Salery negotiable.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.

What's their issue with Kevin Lunney and Liam McCaffrey?

Let us not forget that Quinn defrauded the state for billions, lost his business empire, was aided from afar to help him out of this hole, was landed with a fantastic external consultant role and then expected to get his business back for a song.

After this broke down a renewed campaign of violence and intimidation against the current management team started up again. Do you believe the people carrying out these attacks are Quinn Cult members or are the merely thugs for hire?
I've explained above why I think theres issues with Kl & LMcC. The fantastic external consultancy role never materialised and you could agree that he could have taken the money and left them to it. But that wasn't the agreement they had.

I've no idea who's carrying out the attack's.

What are their issues?

The new management team have preserved the businesses, employment has been steady and with the business performing well it's likely that employment and opportunities will grow in the area. I don't see much for the locals to be outraged about, I don't see how it could lead to a vigilante mob wanting to unleash a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation of the current management team. Tony Lunney's interview was very clear in its conclusion that the men who carried the attack on on his brother were hired to do so.

Quinn was brought in as external consultant and tried to run the place, he attempted to undermine the management team and this created problems and it as agreed between both parties that it would not work. It's also stated that Quinn expected to be handed over the shares of the company that McCaffrey, Lunney and O'Reilly had acquired with the takeover. A business empire Quinn lost due to his reckless gambling, not to mention him defrauding the state for billions.

It's quite clear that the QIH management team do not believe this is some vigilante mob of disgruntled locals, Liam McCaffrey has referenced arresting the "paymaster" as being crucial to stopping these attacks. He said this explicitly just as Tony Lunney has that they believe the people carrying out these attacks are being hired and paid to do so, they fully believe that this campaign is being endorsed and funded by a wealthy benefactor and is not part of some vigilante mob that Quinn seems to be painting it as.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 01:43:41 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.

What's their issue with Kevin Lunney and Liam McCaffrey?

Let us not forget that Quinn defrauded the state for billions, lost his business empire, was aided from afar to help him out of this hole, was landed with a fantastic external consultant role and then expected to get his business back for a song.

After this broke down a renewed campaign of violence and intimidation against the current management team started up again. Do you believe the people carrying out these attacks are Quinn Cult members or are the merely thugs for hire?
I've explained above why I think theres issues with Kl & LMcC. The fantastic external consultancy role never materialised and you could agree that he could have taken the money and left them to it. But that wasn't the agreement they had.

I've no idea who's carrying out the attack's.

What are their issues?

The new management team have preserved the businesses, employment has been steady and with the business performing well it's likely that employment and opportunities will grow in the area. I don't see much for the locals to be outraged about, I don't see how it could lead to a vigilante mob wanting to unleash a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation of the current management team. Tony Lunney's interview was very clear in its conclusion that the men who carried the attack on on his brother were hired to do so.

Quinn was brought in as external consultant and tried to run the place, he attempted to undermine the management team and this created problems and it as agreed between both parties that it would not work. It's also stated that Quinn expected to be handed over the shares of the company that McCaffrey, Lunney and O'Reilly had acquired with the takeover. A business empire Quinn lost due to his reckless gambling, not to mention him defrauding the state for billions.

It's quite clear that the QIH management team do not believe this is some vigilante mob of disgruntled locals, Liam McCaffrey has referenced arresting the "paymaster" as being crucial to stopping these attacks. He said this explicitly just as Tony Lunney has that they believe the people carrying out these attacks are being hired and paid to do so, they fully believe that this campaign is being endorsed and funded by a wealthy benefactor and is not part of some vigilante mob that Quinn seems to be painting it as.

Whats in bold, you do not know. There are american consortium as stakeholders in this set up also - do you know what they want or what their plan is? I wager you don't have a clue. There is only one version of the story being told at the moment and again that does not excuse the disgusting attacks that are going on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:54:00 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 01:43:41 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.

What's their issue with Kevin Lunney and Liam McCaffrey?

Let us not forget that Quinn defrauded the state for billions, lost his business empire, was aided from afar to help him out of this hole, was landed with a fantastic external consultant role and then expected to get his business back for a song.

After this broke down a renewed campaign of violence and intimidation against the current management team started up again. Do you believe the people carrying out these attacks are Quinn Cult members or are the merely thugs for hire?
I've explained above why I think theres issues with Kl & LMcC. The fantastic external consultancy role never materialised and you could agree that he could have taken the money and left them to it. But that wasn't the agreement they had.

I've no idea who's carrying out the attack's.

What are their issues?

The new management team have preserved the businesses, employment has been steady and with the business performing well it's likely that employment and opportunities will grow in the area. I don't see much for the locals to be outraged about, I don't see how it could lead to a vigilante mob wanting to unleash a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation of the current management team. Tony Lunney's interview was very clear in its conclusion that the men who carried the attack on on his brother were hired to do so.

Quinn was brought in as external consultant and tried to run the place, he attempted to undermine the management team and this created problems and it as agreed between both parties that it would not work. It's also stated that Quinn expected to be handed over the shares of the company that McCaffrey, Lunney and O'Reilly had acquired with the takeover. A business empire Quinn lost due to his reckless gambling, not to mention him defrauding the state for billions.

It's quite clear that the QIH management team do not believe this is some vigilante mob of disgruntled locals, Liam McCaffrey has referenced arresting the "paymaster" as being crucial to stopping these attacks. He said this explicitly just as Tony Lunney has that they believe the people carrying out these attacks are being hired and paid to do so, they fully believe that this campaign is being endorsed and funded by a wealthy benefactor and is not part of some vigilante mob that Quinn seems to be painting it as.

Whats in bold, you do not know. There are american consortium as stakeholders in this set up also - do you know what they want or what their plan is? I wager you don't have a clue. There is only one version of the story being told at the moment and again that does not excuse the disgusting attacks that are going on.

Itchy, you're from the area?

What's the mood of people on the ground?  Do they think Quinn was shafted?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:58:33 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 01:43:41 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.


I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.

What's their issue with Kevin Lunney and Liam McCaffrey?

Let us not forget that Quinn defrauded the state for billions, lost his business empire, was aided from afar to help him out of this hole, was landed with a fantastic external consultant role and then expected to get his business back for a song.

After this broke down a renewed campaign of violence and intimidation against the current management team started up again. Do you believe the people carrying out these attacks are Quinn Cult members or are the merely thugs for hire?
I've explained above why I think theres issues with Kl & LMcC. The fantastic external consultancy role never materialised and you could agree that he could have taken the money and left them to it. But that wasn't the agreement they had.

I've no idea who's carrying out the attack's.

What are their issues?

The new management team have preserved the businesses, employment has been steady and with the business performing well it's likely that employment and opportunities will grow in the area. I don't see much for the locals to be outraged about, I don't see how it could lead to a vigilante mob wanting to unleash a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation of the current management team. Tony Lunney's interview was very clear in its conclusion that the men who carried the attack on on his brother were hired to do so.

Quinn was brought in as external consultant and tried to run the place, he attempted to undermine the management team and this created problems and it as agreed between both parties that it would not work. It's also stated that Quinn expected to be handed over the shares of the company that McCaffrey, Lunney and O'Reilly had acquired with the takeover. A business empire Quinn lost due to his reckless gambling, not to mention him defrauding the state for billions.

It's quite clear that the QIH management team do not believe this is some vigilante mob of disgruntled locals, Liam McCaffrey has referenced arresting the "paymaster" as being crucial to stopping these attacks. He said this explicitly just as Tony Lunney has that they believe the people carrying out these attacks are being hired and paid to do so, they fully believe that this campaign is being endorsed and funded by a wealthy benefactor and is not part of some vigilante mob that Quinn seems to be painting it as.

Whats in bold, you do not know. There are american consortium as stakeholders in this set up also - do you know what they want or what their plan is? I wager you don't have a clue. There is only one version of the story being told at the moment and again that does not excuse the disgusting attacks that are going on.

And neither does anyone. Are you saying paranoia is fueling these attacks or maybe you should pay some credence to what the victims of this sustained campaign of violence and intimidation think of the matter.

I think that's a pretty absurd claim in any case, they have all the raw materials, expensive plant equipment and work yard, skilled workforce etc that it would virtually impossible to shift plant and move so that's a very poorly thought out excuse.


Now let's listen to those at the subject of this campaign of sustained violence and intimidation.

Liam McCaffrey:

Mr McCaffrey alleged that the gang who carried out the attack came from 40 kilometres away and "work for money".

"They have no beef with the directors of Quinn Industrial Holdings, so undoubtedly they were paid to carry out this task," he said.
Everyone I have spoken to about it is.

Tony Lunney

Listen to Tony Lunney being interviewed here, along with the local parish priest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc1DlxneZ2U


John McCartin

"The finance of an operation like that – involving between 12 to 20 people, I'm told is estimated by the experts; stealing vehicles, having them disposed of, getting a site for the torture to be conducted – all of that requires a lot of planning and a lot of money.

"There has to be an entity whose interests are aligned with this particular campaign and who is paying for it."


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.

What's their issue with Kevin Lunney and Liam McCaffrey?

Let us not forget that Quinn defrauded the state for billions, lost his business empire, was aided from afar to help him out of this hole, was landed with a fantastic external consultant role and then expected to get his business back for a song.

After this broke down a renewed campaign of violence and intimidation against the current management team started up again. Do you believe the people carrying out these attacks are Quinn Cult members or are the merely thugs for hire?
I've explained above why I think theres issues with Kl & LMcC. The fantastic external consultancy role never materialised and you could agree that he could have taken the money and left them to it. But that wasn't the agreement they had.

I've no idea who's carrying out the attack's.

What are their issues?

The new management team have preserved the businesses, employment has been steady and with the business performing well it's likely that employment and opportunities will grow in the area. I don't see much for the locals to be outraged about, I don't see how it could lead to a vigilante mob wanting to unleash a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation of the current management team. Tony Lunney's interview was very clear in its conclusion that the men who carried the attack on on his brother were hired to do so.

Quinn was brought in as external consultant and tried to run the place, he attempted to undermine the management team and this created problems and it as agreed between both parties that it would not work. It's also stated that Quinn expected to be handed over the shares of the company that McCaffrey, Lunney and O'Reilly had acquired with the takeover. A business empire Quinn lost due to his reckless gambling, not to mention him defrauding the state for billions.

It's quite clear that the QIH management team do not believe this is some vigilante mob of disgruntled locals, Liam McCaffrey has referenced arresting the "paymaster" as being crucial to stopping these attacks. He said this explicitly just as Tony Lunney has that they believe the people carrying out these attacks are being hired and paid to do so, they fully believe that this campaign is being endorsed and funded by a wealthy benefactor and is not part of some vigilante mob that Quinn seems to be painting it as.

I've said earlier twice what the issues with KL and LMC are. People believe they were dishonest and used SQ to seal the deal and get them back into management. Once sealed proceeded to go back on commitments they had made to him for their own benefit.
I care little what Liam McCaffrey states. If he has proof I'd listen but similar to Fr O Riley there's nothing to back it up. As for Tony Lunney. I would be interested in his views on the early attacks on the business?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:26:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.

What's their issue with Kevin Lunney and Liam McCaffrey?

Let us not forget that Quinn defrauded the state for billions, lost his business empire, was aided from afar to help him out of this hole, was landed with a fantastic external consultant role and then expected to get his business back for a song.

After this broke down a renewed campaign of violence and intimidation against the current management team started up again. Do you believe the people carrying out these attacks are Quinn Cult members or are the merely thugs for hire?
I've explained above why I think theres issues with Kl & LMcC. The fantastic external consultancy role never materialised and you could agree that he could have taken the money and left them to it. But that wasn't the agreement they had.

I've no idea who's carrying out the attack's.

What are their issues?

The new management team have preserved the businesses, employment has been steady and with the business performing well it's likely that employment and opportunities will grow in the area. I don't see much for the locals to be outraged about, I don't see how it could lead to a vigilante mob wanting to unleash a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation of the current management team. Tony Lunney's interview was very clear in its conclusion that the men who carried the attack on on his brother were hired to do so.

Quinn was brought in as external consultant and tried to run the place, he attempted to undermine the management team and this created problems and it as agreed between both parties that it would not work. It's also stated that Quinn expected to be handed over the shares of the company that McCaffrey, Lunney and O'Reilly had acquired with the takeover. A business empire Quinn lost due to his reckless gambling, not to mention him defrauding the state for billions.

It's quite clear that the QIH management team do not believe this is some vigilante mob of disgruntled locals, Liam McCaffrey has referenced arresting the "paymaster" as being crucial to stopping these attacks. He said this explicitly just as Tony Lunney has that they believe the people carrying out these attacks are being hired and paid to do so, they fully believe that this campaign is being endorsed and funded by a wealthy benefactor and is not part of some vigilante mob that Quinn seems to be painting it as.

I've said earlier twice what the issues with KL and LMC are. People believe they were dishonest and used SQ to seal the deal and get them back into management. Once sealed proceeded to go back on commitments they had made to him for their own benefit.
I care little what Liam McCaffrey states. If he has proof I'd listen but similar to Fr O Riley there's nothing to back it up. As for Tony Lunney. I would be interested in his views on the early attacks on the business?

That makes absolutely no sense, you are missing quite a lot of what has been stated.

How did they use SQ to get the deal done? SQ approached John McCartin, John Bosco and Ernie Fisher to help him out. They did.

The management team did not betray SQ, they agreed a deal to take control of the business that SQ had lost through his reckless gambling. The fact that SQ felt a sense of entitlement to have the business handed back to him after he defrauded the tax payer for billions tell you about the character and morals of the man, the fact that SQ can make himself out to be the victim in this situation shows you the type of sociopath that he is. He's still a hugely wealthy man, living a lavish lifestyle in a big mansion of a residence and there's no way he should be considering the debt he owed.

Can you state how SQ helped them to get the deal done?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:30:43 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?

Not only was he responsible for losing billions of Euro but he was also involved in a campaign of obstruction, frustration and asset hiding when his debt was called in. In the midst of a financial crisis when people were losing their jobs and in some cases, their homes and facing financial hardship - Quinn was reneging on a deal he had signed up to and screwing the taxpayer for billions. I think the taxpayer has to stump up about €60m a year in an insurance levy down south because of the criminal actions of the Quinn family.

Let's be pretty glib about him, he is a very dangerous man who only cares about himself.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:41:46 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:26:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.

What's their issue with Kevin Lunney and Liam McCaffrey?

Let us not forget that Quinn defrauded the state for billions, lost his business empire, was aided from afar to help him out of this hole, was landed with a fantastic external consultant role and then expected to get his business back for a song.

After this broke down a renewed campaign of violence and intimidation against the current management team started up again. Do you believe the people carrying out these attacks are Quinn Cult members or are the merely thugs for hire?
I've explained above why I think theres issues with Kl & LMcC. The fantastic external consultancy role never materialised and you could agree that he could have taken the money and left them to it. But that wasn't the agreement they had.

I've no idea who's carrying out the attack's.

What are their issues?

The new management team have preserved the businesses, employment has been steady and with the business performing well it's likely that employment and opportunities will grow in the area. I don't see much for the locals to be outraged about, I don't see how it could lead to a vigilante mob wanting to unleash a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation of the current management team. Tony Lunney's interview was very clear in its conclusion that the men who carried the attack on on his brother were hired to do so.

Quinn was brought in as external consultant and tried to run the place, he attempted to undermine the management team and this created problems and it as agreed between both parties that it would not work. It's also stated that Quinn expected to be handed over the shares of the company that McCaffrey, Lunney and O'Reilly had acquired with the takeover. A business empire Quinn lost due to his reckless gambling, not to mention him defrauding the state for billions.

It's quite clear that the QIH management team do not believe this is some vigilante mob of disgruntled locals, Liam McCaffrey has referenced arresting the "paymaster" as being crucial to stopping these attacks. He said this explicitly just as Tony Lunney has that they believe the people carrying out these attacks are being hired and paid to do so, they fully believe that this campaign is being endorsed and funded by a wealthy benefactor and is not part of some vigilante mob that Quinn seems to be painting it as.

I've said earlier twice what the issues with KL and LMC are. People believe they were dishonest and used SQ to seal the deal and get them back into management. Once sealed proceeded to go back on commitments they had made to him for their own benefit.
I care little what Liam McCaffrey states. If he has proof I'd listen but similar to Fr O Riley there's nothing to back it up. As for Tony Lunney. I would be interested in his views on the early attacks on the business?

That makes absolutely no sense, you are missing quite a lot of what has been stated.

How did they use SQ to get the deal done? SQ approached John McCartin, John Bosco and Ernie Fisher to help him out. They did.

The management team did not betray SQ, they agreed a deal to take control of the business that SQ had lost through his reckless gambling. The fact that SQ felt a sense of entitlement to have the business handed back to him after he defrauded the tax payer for billions tell you about the character and morals of the man, the fact that SQ can make himself out to be the victim in this situation shows you the type of sociopath that he is. He's still a hugely wealthy man, living a lavish lifestyle in a big mansion of a residence and there's no way he should be considering the debt he owed.

Can you state how SQ helped them to get the deal done?
I'm missing nothing. The agreement was to aid SQ to return to the business. They were under no obligation to do so. But that was what was agreed between them. In the agreement SQ would public ally say he supported the deal which would help it through in the community and with the workforce.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:43:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank.

Dubbed by the bank?

Would you go and do one.

He is a criminal who defrauded the taxpayer for billions and ensured financial hardship was inflicted on hundreds of thousands of hard working people due to his greed and unwillingness to face the consequences of his mistakes.

How you can defend a guy like that is beyond me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:44:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:43:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank.

Dubbed by the bank?

Would you go and do one.

He is a criminal who defrauded the taxpayer for billions and ensured financial hardship was inflicted on hundreds of thousands of hard working people due to his greed and unwillingness to face the consequences of his mistakes.

How you can defend a guy like that is beyond me.
Grand so. I've no wish to disappear down a rabbit hole with you as per the Ulster club thread where your opinion becomes fact. So we'll leave it there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:47:02 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:41:46 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:26:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:16:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 01:14:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: five points on November 01, 2019, 11:51:43 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Doesn't say much for the people of Cavan and Fermanagh if that's the case. I would imagine the vast majority of the locals are absolutely appalled by what is going on.

Everyone I have spoken to about it is.
I think any right minded person would be appalled at the attacks. But that doesn't follow through to support for KL and Liam McCaffery in their roles with QIH.

What's their issue with Kevin Lunney and Liam McCaffrey?

Let us not forget that Quinn defrauded the state for billions, lost his business empire, was aided from afar to help him out of this hole, was landed with a fantastic external consultant role and then expected to get his business back for a song.

After this broke down a renewed campaign of violence and intimidation against the current management team started up again. Do you believe the people carrying out these attacks are Quinn Cult members or are the merely thugs for hire?
I've explained above why I think theres issues with Kl & LMcC. The fantastic external consultancy role never materialised and you could agree that he could have taken the money and left them to it. But that wasn't the agreement they had.

I've no idea who's carrying out the attack's.

What are their issues?

The new management team have preserved the businesses, employment has been steady and with the business performing well it's likely that employment and opportunities will grow in the area. I don't see much for the locals to be outraged about, I don't see how it could lead to a vigilante mob wanting to unleash a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation of the current management team. Tony Lunney's interview was very clear in its conclusion that the men who carried the attack on on his brother were hired to do so.

Quinn was brought in as external consultant and tried to run the place, he attempted to undermine the management team and this created problems and it as agreed between both parties that it would not work. It's also stated that Quinn expected to be handed over the shares of the company that McCaffrey, Lunney and O'Reilly had acquired with the takeover. A business empire Quinn lost due to his reckless gambling, not to mention him defrauding the state for billions.

It's quite clear that the QIH management team do not believe this is some vigilante mob of disgruntled locals, Liam McCaffrey has referenced arresting the "paymaster" as being crucial to stopping these attacks. He said this explicitly just as Tony Lunney has that they believe the people carrying out these attacks are being hired and paid to do so, they fully believe that this campaign is being endorsed and funded by a wealthy benefactor and is not part of some vigilante mob that Quinn seems to be painting it as.

I've said earlier twice what the issues with KL and LMC are. People believe they were dishonest and used SQ to seal the deal and get them back into management. Once sealed proceeded to go back on commitments they had made to him for their own benefit.
I care little what Liam McCaffrey states. If he has proof I'd listen but similar to Fr O Riley there's nothing to back it up. As for Tony Lunney. I would be interested in his views on the early attacks on the business?

That makes absolutely no sense, you are missing quite a lot of what has been stated.

How did they use SQ to get the deal done? SQ approached John McCartin, John Bosco and Ernie Fisher to help him out. They did.

The management team did not betray SQ, they agreed a deal to take control of the business that SQ had lost through his reckless gambling. The fact that SQ felt a sense of entitlement to have the business handed back to him after he defrauded the tax payer for billions tell you about the character and morals of the man, the fact that SQ can make himself out to be the victim in this situation shows you the type of sociopath that he is. He's still a hugely wealthy man, living a lavish lifestyle in a big mansion of a residence and there's no way he should be considering the debt he owed.

Can you state how SQ helped them to get the deal done?
I'm missing nothing. The agreement was to aid SQ to return to the business. They were under no obligation to do so. But that was what was agreed between them. In the agreement SQ would public ally say he supported the deal which would help it through in the community and with the workforce.

How did SQ help them get the deal done?

Why did SQ expect to get the business empire he lost due to his reckless gambling back for a song, particularly when he screw the state for billions of Euro?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:47:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:44:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:43:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank.

Dubbed by the bank?

Would you go and do one.

He is a criminal who defrauded the taxpayer for billions and ensured financial hardship was inflicted on hundreds of thousands of hard working people due to his greed and unwillingness to face the consequences of his mistakes.

How you can defend a guy like that is beyond me.
Grand so. I've no wish to disappear down a rabbit hole with you as per the Ulster club thread where your opinion becomes fact. So we'll leave it there.

It's not my opinion that he is a criminal who defrauded the state for billions of Euros.

They are statements of facts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 01, 2019, 02:51:53 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank.

You seriously cannot believe that is what happened?

The Kinnehans are the biggest employers of young men in the south inner city.. so what?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 01, 2019, 02:53:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:43:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank.

Dubbed by the bank?

Would you go and do one.

He is a criminal who defrauded the taxpayer for billions and ensured financial hardship was inflicted on hundreds of thousands of hard working people due to his greed and unwillingness to face the consequences of his mistakes.

How you can defend a guy like that is beyond me.

Gombeenism. Bought and paid for.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:57:23 PM
Sean Quinn circa 2009 re his Anglo Bank debt

"The banks made a fool out of me by getting a simple old man like myself to sign documents I didn't know what they meant"

Sean Quinn 2019 re the attacks on Kevin Lunney:

"Sure you must think I'm a fool if I ordered those attacks on Kevin Lunney as the attention would naturally turn in my direction"

Seems SQ has a bit of a fool complex going on with himself, it's easy to be the fool when the narrative suits.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:09:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:47:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:44:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:43:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank.

Dubbed by the bank?

Would you go and do one.

He is a criminal who defrauded the taxpayer for billions and ensured financial hardship was inflicted on hundreds of thousands of hard working people due to his greed and unwillingness to face the consequences of his mistakes.

How you can defend a guy like that is beyond me.
Grand so. I've no wish to disappear down a rabbit hole with you as per the Ulster club thread where your opinion becomes fact. So we'll leave it there.

It's not my opinion that he is a criminal who defrauded the state for billions of Euros.

They are statements of facts.

What was he charged with?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:09:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:47:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:44:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:43:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank.

Dubbed by the bank?

Would you go and do one.

He is a criminal who defrauded the taxpayer for billions and ensured financial hardship was inflicted on hundreds of thousands of hard working people due to his greed and unwillingness to face the consequences of his mistakes.

How you can defend a guy like that is beyond me.
Grand so. I've no wish to disappear down a rabbit hole with you as per the Ulster club thread where your opinion becomes fact. So we'll leave it there.

It's not my opinion that he is a criminal who defrauded the state for billions of Euros.

They are statements of facts.

What was he charged with?

Contempt of Court.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:22:30 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 01, 2019, 02:51:53 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank.

You seriously cannot believe that is what happened?

The Kinnehans are the biggest employers of young men in the south inner city.. so what?

Apologies, Terminology might not be right there as in I mean he believed the hype about the bank, not that it had ripped him off.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:22:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:09:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:47:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:44:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:43:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank.

Dubbed by the bank?

Would you go and do one.

He is a criminal who defrauded the taxpayer for billions and ensured financial hardship was inflicted on hundreds of thousands of hard working people due to his greed and unwillingness to face the consequences of his mistakes.

How you can defend a guy like that is beyond me.
Grand so. I've no wish to disappear down a rabbit hole with you as per the Ulster club thread where your opinion becomes fact. So we'll leave it there.

It's not my opinion that he is a criminal who defrauded the state for billions of Euros.

They are statements of facts.

What was he charged with?

Contempt of Court.

Criminal charge? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 03:31:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:22:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 03:19:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:09:58 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:47:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:44:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 02:43:05 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: gander on November 01, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
Why all the love and loyalty for Quinn?  yes he brought jobs, but he also was responsible for a lot of people losing their jobs too, and managed to lose billionsof euro, why would you want someone like that anywhere near a business?
I still think he's in a positive number with regards to number of jobs created compared to lost. He created jobs in an area where there was little else. He also impacted a number of families in the local area directly with support when harder times fell. Myself included.
Maybe ask yourself why the groundswell of support for him if he was just another business man. He fucked up specularly with his investment in Anglo. But he wasn't alone in being dubbed by the bank.

Dubbed by the bank?

Would you go and do one.

He is a criminal who defrauded the taxpayer for billions and ensured financial hardship was inflicted on hundreds of thousands of hard working people due to his greed and unwillingness to face the consequences of his mistakes.

How you can defend a guy like that is beyond me.
Grand so. I've no wish to disappear down a rabbit hole with you as per the Ulster club thread where your opinion becomes fact. So we'll leave it there.

It's not my opinion that he is a criminal who defrauded the state for billions of Euros.

They are statements of facts.

What was he charged with?

Contempt of Court.

Criminal charge?

He was given a custodial setence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:33:51 PM
Is it a criminal offence or civil? Simple question.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 03:39:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:33:51 PM
Is it a criminal offence or civil? Simple question.

Custodial sentences are not imposed for civil offences.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:42:04 PM
Is contempt of court a civil offence or criminal? I can help you out if you like?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 03:44:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:42:04 PM
Is contempt of court a civil offence or criminal? I can help you out if you like?

Sean Quinn served a custodial sentence for contempt of court. Civil offences do not carry jail terms, Sean Quinn served a custodial sentence, it's not hard to work out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:50:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 03:44:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:42:04 PM
Is contempt of court a civil offence or criminal? I can help you out if you like?

Sean Quinn served a custodial sentence for contempt of court. Civil offences do not carry jail terms, Sean Quinn served a custodial sentence, it's not hard to work out.

It was a civil charge SQ was charged with not a criminal one. It was debated on here at the time. But we'll leave it there. I haven't the time to engage if you find it impossible to accept facts.
Peter couldn't be extradited due to it being a civil matter.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 03:54:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:50:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 03:44:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:42:04 PM
Is contempt of court a civil offence or criminal? I can help you out if you like?

Sean Quinn served a custodial sentence for contempt of court. Civil offences do not carry jail terms, Sean Quinn served a custodial sentence, it's not hard to work out.

It was a civil charge SQ was charged with not a criminal one. It was debated on here at the time. But we'll leave it there. I haven't the time to engage if you find it impossible to accept facts.
Peter couldn't be extradited due to it being a civil matter.

Contempt of court carries a custodial sentence.

What do you think of the actions of Quinn family in hiding their assest and putting them out of the state's reach, about Quinn reneging on his debts and bestowing the burden of such upon the hard working, tax compliant people in his state?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:56:39 PM
We'll park it there. If ur unable to accept a simple fact then it's pointless.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 04:05:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:56:39 PM
We'll park it there. If ur unable to accept a simple fact then it's pointless.

Are you fed up of defending the indefensible? Seems like you are.

You never clarified how SQ helped get the deal done either. It seemed Quinn simply wanted the business empire he had lost during his reckless gambling handed back to him for a song.

The current QIH management team have kept employment in the local area and made the business a viable one. They certainly don't seem to believe it is a vigilante group upset at the betrayal of Quinn who are behind it. They have explicitly stated that they believe the attacks have been financed and organised by a wealthy benefactor who has something to gain with ownership being passed over to the Quinn family.

Try and not be an ostrich all your life.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 04:05:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:56:39 PM
We'll park it there. If ur unable to accept a simple fact then it's pointless.

Are you fed up of defending the indefensible? Seems like you are.

You never clarified how SQ helped get the deal done either. It seemed Quinn simply wanted the business empire he had lost during his reckless gambling handed back to him for a song.

The current QIH management team have kept employment in the local area and made the business a viable one. They certainly don't seem to believe it is a vigilante group upset at the betrayal of Quinn who are behind it. They have explicitly stated that they believe the attacks have been financed and organised by a wealthy benefactor who has something to gain with ownership being passed over to the Quinn family.

Try and not be an ostrich all your life.
Good man. And Tyrone has the best championship as well.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 04:05:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:56:39 PM
We'll park it there. If ur unable to accept a simple fact then it's pointless.

Are you fed up of defending the indefensible? Seems like you are.

You never clarified how SQ helped get the deal done either. It seemed Quinn simply wanted the business empire he had lost during his reckless gambling handed back to him for a song.

The current QIH management team have kept employment in the local area and made the business a viable one. They certainly don't seem to believe it is a vigilante group upset at the betrayal of Quinn who are behind it. They have explicitly stated that they believe the attacks have been financed and organised by a wealthy benefactor who has something to gain with ownership being passed over to the Quinn family.

Try and not be an ostrich all your life.
Good man. And Tyrone has the best championship as well.

You still haven't told us how SQ helped get the deal done?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 04:27:54 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.
[/b]

I mentioned this on here that they were separate issues and more personal than to do it the Quinn saga. It's actually the same incident as the throwing cup of tea at LMcC aswell.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 04:45:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 04:05:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:56:39 PM
We'll park it there. If ur unable to accept a simple fact then it's pointless.

Are you fed up of defending the indefensible? Seems like you are.

You never clarified how SQ helped get the deal done either. It seemed Quinn simply wanted the business empire he had lost during his reckless gambling handed back to him for a song.

The current QIH management team have kept employment in the local area and made the business a viable one. They certainly don't seem to believe it is a vigilante group upset at the betrayal of Quinn who are behind it. They have explicitly stated that they believe the attacks have been financed and organised by a wealthy benefactor who has something to gain with ownership being passed over to the Quinn family.

Try and not be an ostrich all your life.
Good man. And Tyrone has the best championship as well.

You still haven't told us how SQ helped get the deal done?


I do not have any insider knowledge of the specifics of this deal but if the US moneymen identified a due diligence risk that they needed community support or identified a gap in the operational expertise of the MBO team and thought that SQ would mitigate it then  its perfectly possible that they  made it a condition of providing the finance that SQ was involved in some capacity. That would be normal enough in a buyout like this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gallsman on November 01, 2019, 04:56:12 PM
Absolutely true TabClear. Such US moneymen would also, however, be unlikely to treat the entire exercise as a masquerade to get the greedy bastard Seanie and his idiot son and nephew the business back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 04:57:26 PM
Quote from: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 04:45:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 04:05:48 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 01, 2019, 03:56:39 PM
We'll park it there. If ur unable to accept a simple fact then it's pointless.

Are you fed up of defending the indefensible? Seems like you are.

You never clarified how SQ helped get the deal done either. It seemed Quinn simply wanted the business empire he had lost during his reckless gambling handed back to him for a song.

The current QIH management team have kept employment in the local area and made the business a viable one. They certainly don't seem to believe it is a vigilante group upset at the betrayal of Quinn who are behind it. They have explicitly stated that they believe the attacks have been financed and organised by a wealthy benefactor who has something to gain with ownership being passed over to the Quinn family.

Try and not be an ostrich all your life.
Good man. And Tyrone has the best championship as well.

You still haven't told us how SQ helped get the deal done?


I do not have any insider knowledge of the specifics of this deal but if the US moneymen identified a due diligence risk that they needed community support or identified a gap in the operational expertise of the MBO team and thought that SQ would mitigate it then  its perfectly possible that they  made it a condition of providing the finance that SQ was involved in some capacity. That would be normal enough in a buyout like this.

This was not the case as it seems it was the current QIH management team that convinced the Americans to take Quinn on as an external consultant.

You can understand the reservations that any outside investor may have in providing Quinn with a shareholding after the campaign which had taken place when the business was in receivership.

If this was the case, why did Quinn feel the need to front people on his behalf?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 05:05:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 01, 2019, 04:56:12 PM
Absolutely true TabClear. Such US moneymen would also, however, be unlikely to treat the entire exercise as a masquerade to get the greedy b**tard Seanie and his idiot son and nephew the business back.

Fair point. They will have backed the management team of LMC/KL etc (who I assume have equity interest). That doesnt preclude the management team from agreeing with the financiers that they had addressed any perceived risk as above through a consultancy arrangement with SQ. My point is that SS's assertion that SQ was required to get the deal over the line is possible, even likely, otherwise the funders would never have allowed such a lucrative agreement to be put in place. Clearly the US guys must have been ok with the arrangement as I assume  it is paid from company money. What was discussed between SQ and the MBO team as a side agreement we will probably never know so it is pure speculation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.

1. Why don't they believe he was behind the attacks? The current QIH management team seem to be fairly certain that these attacks are orchestrated and financed by a moneyman who stands to gain from the business going back into the hands of the Quinn family.
2. Fair enough but who do they think are behind them and why do they differ so much with views of the victims of the attacks?
3. He lost those business through his own reckless mistakes and behaved abhorrently in hiding assets and reneging on his debts, putting the burden of his mistakes on the taxpayer.
4. What jobs in the area. Apparently QIH employ 840 people locally in the area, in the construction line of the Quinn business empire, what would the employment numbers have been at boom times? How can they shift these jobs. They own all the plant machinery, equipment, property in that area - it would not be financially viable to move. It's not like a technology company. This seems like very poorly thought out excuses from the Quinn cultists. What jobs are under threat? Specifically?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:09:50 PM
Quote from: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 05:05:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 01, 2019, 04:56:12 PM
Absolutely true TabClear. Such US moneymen would also, however, be unlikely to treat the entire exercise as a masquerade to get the greedy b**tard Seanie and his idiot son and nephew the business back.

Fair point. They will have backed the management team of LMC/KL etc (who I assume have equity interest). That doesnt preclude the management team from agreeing with the financiers that they had addressed any perceived risk as above through a consultancy arrangement with SQ. My point is that SS's assertion that SQ was required to get the deal over the line is possible, even likely, otherwise the funders would never have allowed such a lucrative agreement to be put in place. Clearly the US guys must have been ok with the arrangement as I assume  it is paid from company money. What was discussed between SQ and the MBO team as a side agreement we will probably never know so it is pure speculation.

Why were they dealing with middle men if Sean Quinn was integral to the deal? It seems the only clout Quinn may had in any negotiations is calling off the hounds and the hounds were called off in the brief time Quinn was employed at QIH.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 05:15:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.

1. Why don't they believe he was behind the attacks? The current QIH management team seem to be fairly certain that these attacks are orchestrated and financed by a moneyman who stands to gain from the business going back into the hands of the Quinn family.
2. Fair enough but who do they think are behind them and why do they differ so much with views of the victims of the attacks?
3. He lost those business through his own reckless mistakes and behaved abhorrently in hiding assets and reneging on his debts, putting the burden of his mistakes on the taxpayer.
4. What jobs in the area. Apparently QIH employ 840 people locally in the area, in the construction line of the Quinn business empire, what would the employment numbers have been at boom times? How can they shift these jobs. They own all the plant machinery, equipment, property in that area - it would not be financially viable to move. It's not like a technology company. This seems like very poorly thought out excuses from the Quinn cultists. What jobs are under threat? Specifically?

I'm sure there was plenty of kit in Michelin, Gallaghers, Schlumberger, Wrightbus etc. Sometimes it does make financial sense to move despite this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 05:19:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:09:50 PM
Quote from: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 05:05:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 01, 2019, 04:56:12 PM
Absolutely true TabClear. Such US moneymen would also, however, be unlikely to treat the entire exercise as a masquerade to get the greedy b**tard Seanie and his idiot son and nephew the business back.

Fair point. They will have backed the management team of LMC/KL etc (who I assume have equity interest). That doesnt preclude the management team from agreeing with the financiers that they had addressed any perceived risk as above through a consultancy arrangement with SQ. My point is that SS's assertion that SQ was required to get the deal over the line is possible, even likely, otherwise the funders would never have allowed such a lucrative agreement to be put in place. Clearly the US guys must have been ok with the arrangement as I assume  it is paid from company money. What was discussed between SQ and the MBO team as a side agreement we will probably never know so it is pure speculation.

Why were they dealing with middle men if Sean Quinn was integral to the deal? It seems the only clout Quinn may had in any negotiations is calling off the hounds and the hounds were called off in the brief time Quinn was employed at QIH.

What do you mean by middle men? They clearly were backing the management team. As I said, its normal enough in an MBO for funders to want to bring in external advisers/consultants etc to bulk up the management team derisk their investment.  I dont think its unreasonable to assume that they saw SQs decades of experience in running the business as beneficial. Nothing to do with hounds.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 05:15:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.

1. Why don't they believe he was behind the attacks? The current QIH management team seem to be fairly certain that these attacks are orchestrated and financed by a moneyman who stands to gain from the business going back into the hands of the Quinn family.
2. Fair enough but who do they think are behind them and why do they differ so much with views of the victims of the attacks?
3. He lost those business through his own reckless mistakes and behaved abhorrently in hiding assets and reneging on his debts, putting the burden of his mistakes on the taxpayer.
4. What jobs in the area. Apparently QIH employ 840 people locally in the area, in the construction line of the Quinn business empire, what would the employment numbers have been at boom times? How can they shift these jobs. They own all the plant machinery, equipment, property in that area - it would not be financially viable to move. It's not like a technology company. This seems like very poorly thought out excuses from the Quinn cultists. What jobs are under threat? Specifically?

I'm sure there was plenty of kit in Michelin, Gallaghers, Schlumberger, Wrightbus etc. Sometimes it does make financial sense to move despite this.

Wrightbus for one, is in administration.

Where is the vast majority of QIH's business conducted? Ireland or overseas?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: APM on November 01, 2019, 05:24:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.

1. Why don't they believe he was behind the attacks? The current QIH management team seem to be fairly certain that these attacks are orchestrated and financed by a moneyman who stands to gain from the business going back into the hands of the Quinn family.
2. Fair enough but who do they think are behind them and why do they differ so much with views of the victims of the attacks?
3. He lost those business through his own reckless mistakes and behaved abhorrently in hiding assets and reneging on his debts, putting the burden of his mistakes on the taxpayer.
4. What jobs in the area. Apparently QIH employ 840 people locally in the area, in the construction line of the Quinn business empire, what would the employment numbers have been at boom times? How can they shift these jobs. They own all the plant machinery, equipment, property in that area - it would not be financially viable to move. It's not like a technology company. This seems like very poorly thought out excuses from the Quinn cultists. What jobs are under threat? Specifically?

I'm with you! Are there some some people on here acting as apologists for what is happening and muddying the waters?
I find it hard to stomach the notion that those signs are still up and no-one in the local community, garda or PSNI haven't taken them down. 

Given all that has happened, the support for Quinn is strange and bizarre. Someone will make a film about this someday. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Will it ever end on November 01, 2019, 05:37:31 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 05:15:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.

1. Why don't they believe he was behind the attacks? The current QIH management team seem to be fairly certain that these attacks are orchestrated and financed by a moneyman who stands to gain from the business going back into the hands of the Quinn family.
2. Fair enough but who do they think are behind them and why do they differ so much with views of the victims of the attacks?
3. He lost those business through his own reckless mistakes and behaved abhorrently in hiding assets and reneging on his debts, putting the burden of his mistakes on the taxpayer.
4. What jobs in the area. Apparently QIH employ 840 people locally in the area, in the construction line of the Quinn business empire, what would the employment numbers have been at boom times? How can they shift these jobs. They own all the plant machinery, equipment, property in that area - it would not be financially viable to move. It's not like a technology company. This seems like very poorly thought out excuses from the Quinn cultists. What jobs are under threat? Specifically?

I'm sure there was plenty of kit in Michelin, Gallaghers, Schlumberger, Wrightbus etc. Sometimes it does make financial sense to move despite this.

Wrightbus for one, is in administration.

Where is the vast majority of QIH's business conducted? Ireland or overseas?

Wrightbus is a totally different case for failure - No adaption to the electric market which is the developed form for public buses across the world at present & cash call on reserves for Green Pastures.

QIH largest product base will be into construction in the south & England - their positioned to benefit as their labour costs are by a stretch more competitive than their southern or English counterparts - this allows them to compete well in all markets on price - it would make no sense what so ever to relocate!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:38:52 PM
Quote from: APM on November 01, 2019, 05:24:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.

1. Why don't they believe he was behind the attacks? The current QIH management team seem to be fairly certain that these attacks are orchestrated and financed by a moneyman who stands to gain from the business going back into the hands of the Quinn family.
2. Fair enough but who do they think are behind them and why do they differ so much with views of the victims of the attacks?
3. He lost those business through his own reckless mistakes and behaved abhorrently in hiding assets and reneging on his debts, putting the burden of his mistakes on the taxpayer.
4. What jobs in the area. Apparently QIH employ 840 people locally in the area, in the construction line of the Quinn business empire, what would the employment numbers have been at boom times? How can they shift these jobs. They own all the plant machinery, equipment, property in that area - it would not be financially viable to move. It's not like a technology company. This seems like very poorly thought out excuses from the Quinn cultists. What jobs are under threat? Specifically?

I'm with you! Are there some some people on here acting as apologists for what is happening and muddying the waters?
I find it hard to stomach the notion that those signs are still up and no-one in the local community, garda or PSNI haven't taken them down. 

Given all that has happened, the support for Quinn is strange and bizarre. Someone will make a film about this someday.

It's flabbergasting, I'd like to give the people the benefit of the doubt and that originally back in the late 00s they were worried about the local economy collapsing with Quinn losing control but now they have local men who are on the management team and the company is performing well and providing plenty of employment locally. I'd like to the people in those areas the benefit of the doubt that they are scared/intimidated now to speak out against the violence and against the conduct of Quinn family rather than that they are still openly supporting Quinn to come back and seize control.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:41:02 PM
Quote from: Will it ever end on November 01, 2019, 05:37:31 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 05:15:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.

1. Why don't they believe he was behind the attacks? The current QIH management team seem to be fairly certain that these attacks are orchestrated and financed by a moneyman who stands to gain from the business going back into the hands of the Quinn family.
2. Fair enough but who do they think are behind them and why do they differ so much with views of the victims of the attacks?
3. He lost those business through his own reckless mistakes and behaved abhorrently in hiding assets and reneging on his debts, putting the burden of his mistakes on the taxpayer.
4. What jobs in the area. Apparently QIH employ 840 people locally in the area, in the construction line of the Quinn business empire, what would the employment numbers have been at boom times? How can they shift these jobs. They own all the plant machinery, equipment, property in that area - it would not be financially viable to move. It's not like a technology company. This seems like very poorly thought out excuses from the Quinn cultists. What jobs are under threat? Specifically?

I'm sure there was plenty of kit in Michelin, Gallaghers, Schlumberger, Wrightbus etc. Sometimes it does make financial sense to move despite this.

Wrightbus for one, is in administration.

Where is the vast majority of QIH's business conducted? Ireland or overseas?

Wrightbus is a totally different case for failure - No adaption to the electric market which is the developed form for public buses across the world at present & cash call on reserves for Green Pastures.

QIH largest product base will be into construction in the south & England - their positioned to benefit as their labour costs are by a stretch more competitive than their southern or English counterparts - this allows them to compete well in all markets on price - it would make no sense what so ever to relocate!

As well as that they are in the perfect situation to benefit from Brexit with plant operations closely located on both sides of the border.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 05:54:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.

Thanks for that Itchy.

A divided community - he created jobs in that area when rhey were fogot by Dublin and Belfast.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: omaghjoe on November 01, 2019, 06:08:32 PM
Quote from: TabClear on November 01, 2019, 05:15:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 04:13:52 PM
Marty - You asked a page or two back about what the people in the vicinity think of Sean Quinn and the attacks. 1) I don't think locals believe he was behind the attacks first and foremost. 2) Locals are horrified by the attacks and those that carried them out have little support other than the few loons they always had 3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses. 4) There is a certain split in what the intentions of the current board is towards the jobs in the area. I think some reasonable people are so horrified by the attacks that they feel that they cannot ask hard questions of the current boards actions or intentions as they risk being seen as being aligned to the attacks.

That's what I understand, outside a survey of facts of course. Now there is also a lot of muck being thrown around on both sides which is making things less than clear.

For example, on prime time McCartan was on about how Lunney got his nose broke and he linked it to an ongoing threats but I understand it that the person who done that was aggrieved over a totally different matter and is not linked to anything going on now.

1. Why don't they believe he was behind the attacks? The current QIH management team seem to be fairly certain that these attacks are orchestrated and financed by a moneyman who stands to gain from the business going back into the hands of the Quinn family.
2. Fair enough but who do they think are behind them and why do they differ so much with views of the victims of the attacks?
3. He lost those business through his own reckless mistakes and behaved abhorrently in hiding assets and reneging on his debts, putting the burden of his mistakes on the taxpayer.
4. What jobs in the area. Apparently QIH employ 840 people locally in the area, in the construction line of the Quinn business empire, what would the employment numbers have been at boom times? How can they shift these jobs. They own all the plant machinery, equipment, property in that area - it would not be financially viable to move. It's not like a technology company. This seems like very poorly thought out excuses from the Quinn cultists. What jobs are under threat? Specifically?

I'm sure there was plenty of kit in Michelin, Gallaghers, Schlumberger, Wrightbus etc. Sometimes it does make financial sense to move despite this.

I know a boy that used to worked at glass factory when there was accident there about 10 years back. He says they didnt want to turn off the furnace as it would take 6months or something to get it back to production level.
IDK the whole ins and outs of it but it didnt sound  like the easiest thing in the world to shift around
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gallsman on November 01, 2019, 06:32:31 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 05:54:12 PM
3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses.

This is the biggest problem. It's not his business. He gambled it away. End of story.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 01, 2019, 06:54:27 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 01, 2019, 06:32:31 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 05:54:12 PM
3) People think Sean Quinn should be involved in running what they see as his businesses.

This is the biggest problem. It's not his business. He gambled it away. End of story.
But the local fan club think it's his. Is that not enough? Think of all the job he created out of the goodness of his heart.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Wildweasel74 on November 01, 2019, 09:37:03 PM
His greed for money brought him down, and he he only himself to blame.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: macdanger2 on November 01, 2019, 10:05:48 PM
Interesting to hear the input from SS & Itchy.

I personally wouldn't have much time for Quinn but I can understand that a depth of appreciation would be there locally for him for providing jobs in an area that struggles for employment. No matter what SQ has done as regards gambling away his fortune, that appreciation will remain, it'd be the same in any similar area of the country.

However, I think the recent thuggery may change opinions if those people believe SQ is involved (again, I personally think it can't be anyone but him) but long standing opinions are hard changed
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 10:39:03 PM
Angelo, you think you know a lot but you clearly know f**k all about this subject. Thats fair enough but it needs to be said.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:49:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 01, 2019, 10:39:03 PM
Angelo, you think you know a lot but you clearly know f**k all about this subject. Thats fair enough but it needs to be said.

I think you need to look at some of the stuff you came out including the pie in the sky angle about the potential loss of jobs you have been spouting, you're coming across as a Quinn shill who does not want to look at matters objectively.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
You do realise that the KL attack ended any chance of SQ being involved in QIH again. He publicly admitted this. So explain me the logic behind the attack in that case?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
You do realise that the KL attack ended any chance of SQ being involved in QIH again. He publicly admitted this. So explain me the logic behind the attack in that case?

I don't believe that at all, Sean Quinn claimed he was a fool who was duped by the banks 10 years ago, now he is claiming he wouldn't have anything to do with these attacks as only a fool would do it and he's not a fool. He's a pathological liar.

The logic behind that attack was to intimidate the QIH management meeting to step down and for potential investors to be warned, make business in its current situation unprofitable and untenable and allow to Quinns to swan in and pick the business up for a song

What SQ publicly proclaims is probably going to be a million miles from the truth and then there is SQJ to take into account......
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 01:02:42 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
You do realise that the KL attack ended any chance of SQ being involved in QIH again. He publicly admitted this. So explain me the logic behind the attack in that case?

I don't believe that at all, Sean Quinn claimed he was a fool who was duped by the banks 10 years ago, now he is claiming he wouldn't have anything to do with these attacks as only a fool would do it and he's not a fool. He's a pathological liar.

The logic behind that attack was to intimidate the QIH management meeting to step down and for potential investors to be warned, make business in its current situation unprofitable and untenable and allow to Quinns to swan in and pick the business up for a song

What SQ publicly proclaims is probably going to be a million miles from the truth and then there is SQJ to take into account......
Fair enough you have your opinion and it's pointless debating. Your not going to change your's and I can't see mine changing unless you bring few facts to the party regarding the attacks. So we're wasting each other's time and it's getting late. Early start tomorrow.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 09:43:22 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions
? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.

Sure why dont you tell us, you speak with great authority on it. When your at it tells us where Shergar is buried and who really shot Kennedy
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 11:12:20 AM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 09:43:22 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions
? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.

Sure why dont you tell us, you speak with great authority on it. When your at it tells us where Shergar is buried and who really shot Kennedy

I think the question is for the Quinn apologists and their flimsy excuses.

If it's an extortion gang targeting QIH then why don't they do the same to a company worth over 10 times what QIH are, who are close by?

Is it because you realise that your excuses crumble at first inquest of mild scrutiny?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 11:17:39 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 01:02:42 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
You do realise that the KL attack ended any chance of SQ being involved in QIH again. He publicly admitted this. So explain me the logic behind the attack in that case?

I don't believe that at all, Sean Quinn claimed he was a fool who was duped by the banks 10 years ago, now he is claiming he wouldn't have anything to do with these attacks as only a fool would do it and he's not a fool. He's a pathological liar.

The logic behind that attack was to intimidate the QIH management meeting to step down and for potential investors to be warned, make business in its current situation unprofitable and untenable and allow to Quinns to swan in and pick the business up for a song

What SQ publicly proclaims is probably going to be a million miles from the truth and then there is SQJ to take into account......
Fair enough you have your opinion and it's pointless debating. Your not going to change your's and I can't see mine changing unless you bring few facts to the party regarding the attacks. So we're wasting each other's time and it's getting late. Early start tomorrow.

This boyo doesn't deal in facts, this platform is ideal for him to slander folk with no evidence all under the cloak of anonymity, a coward of the highest order.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 11:23:14 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 11:17:39 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 01:02:42 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
You do realise that the KL attack ended any chance of SQ being involved in QIH again. He publicly admitted this. So explain me the logic behind the attack in that case?

I don't believe that at all, Sean Quinn claimed he was a fool who was duped by the banks 10 years ago, now he is claiming he wouldn't have anything to do with these attacks as only a fool would do it and he's not a fool. He's a pathological liar.

The logic behind that attack was to intimidate the QIH management meeting to step down and for potential investors to be warned, make business in its current situation unprofitable and untenable and allow to Quinns to swan in and pick the business up for a song

What SQ publicly proclaims is probably going to be a million miles from the truth and then there is SQJ to take into account......
Fair enough you have your opinion and it's pointless debating. Your not going to change your's and I can't see mine changing unless you bring few facts to the party regarding the attacks. So we're wasting each other's time and it's getting late. Early start tomorrow.

This boyo doesn't deal in facts, this platform is ideal for him to slander folk with no evidence all under the cloak of anonymity, a coward of the highest order.

Slander folk?

What about the QIH directors who have been the subject to this campaign of violence, intimidation and slander?

As usual you have a lot to say but it's all hot air. Why don't you put your name to it rather than hiding behind your username?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?

Or they laundered money through it back when it was creaking and want it back. The Dub is too pig headed to see he has played his hand waaaay to aggressively
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 01:04:22 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?

It's an absurd theory.

When you hear the same people trying to claim that relocating jobs and premises as a serious threat then I think it tells you about the mentality of them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 01:07:33 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?

Or they laundered money through it back when it was creaking and want it back. The Dub is too pig headed to see he has played his hand waaaay to aggressively

So the alternate theory to SQ being the paymaster or SQ indulged the extortionists is that SQ was a moneylaunderer?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: redzone on November 02, 2019, 02:04:15 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?

Or they laundered money through it back when it was creaking and want it back. The Dub is too pig headed to see he has played his hand waaaay to aggressively

Could yous not take him back down there were he belongs
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 02:24:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 01:07:33 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?

Or they laundered money through it back when it was creaking and want it back. The Dub is too pig headed to see he has played his hand waaaay to aggressively

So the alternate theory to SQ being the paymaster or SQ indulged the extortionists is that SQ was a moneylaunderer?

Why not?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 02:25:41 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 02, 2019, 02:04:15 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?

Or they laundered money through it back when it was creaking and want it back. The Dub is too pig headed to see he has played his hand waaaay to aggressively

Could yous not take him back down there were he belongs

Pull that shit in Dublin he ends up in a cell or a box. For some reason he gets away with in in Derrylin and he knows it
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 04:58:56 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 02:24:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 01:07:33 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?


Or they laundered money through it back when it was creaking and want it back. The Dub is too pig headed to see he has played his hand waaaay to aggressively

So the alternate theory to SQ being the paymaster or SQ indulged the extortionists is that SQ was a moneylaunderer?

Why not?

So the defence of Quinn is that he's a money launderer for criminals?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 05:43:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 04:58:56 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 02:24:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 01:07:33 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?


Or they laundered money through it back when it was creaking and want it back. The Dub is too pig headed to see he has played his hand waaaay to aggressively

So the alternate theory to SQ being the paymaster or SQ indulged the extortionists is that SQ was a moneylaunderer?

Why not?

So the defence of Quinn is that he's a money launderer for criminals?

Your opinion doesn't require a defence I'm afraid to tell you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 07:05:40 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 05:43:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 04:58:56 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 02:24:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 01:07:33 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?


Or they laundered money through it back when it was creaking and want it back. The Dub is too pig headed to see he has played his hand waaaay to aggressively

So the alternate theory to SQ being the paymaster or SQ indulged the extortionists is that SQ was a moneylaunderer?

Why not?

So the defence of Quinn is that he's a money launderer for criminals?

Your opinion doesn't require a defence I'm afraid to tell you.

The excuses trotted out for Quinn don't withstand mild scrutiny.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 07:15:55 PM
Only in your world is your opinion something that would need to be excused.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 08:18:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 07:15:55 PM
Only in your world is your opinion something that would need to be excused.

You're the one that's pedalling out excuses because you can't countenance the fact that SQ's actions have been deplorable since he gambled away his business empire.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 08:34:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 08:18:35 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 07:15:55 PM
Only in your world is your opinion something that would need to be excused.

You're the one that's pedalling out excuses because you can't countenance the fact that SQ's actions have been deplorable since he gambled away his business empire.

No one can countenance your thoughts. I'm happy to leave you alone with them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 11:23:14 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 11:17:39 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 01:02:42 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
You do realise that the KL attack ended any chance of SQ being involved in QIH again. He publicly admitted this. So explain me the logic behind the attack in that case?

I don't believe that at all, Sean Quinn claimed he was a fool who was duped by the banks 10 years ago, now he is claiming he wouldn't have anything to do with these attacks as only a fool would do it and he's not a fool. He's a pathological liar.

The logic behind that attack was to intimidate the QIH management meeting to step down and for potential investors to be warned, make business in its current situation unprofitable and untenable and allow to Quinns to swan in and pick the business up for a song

What SQ publicly proclaims is probably going to be a million miles from the truth and then there is SQJ to take into account......
Fair enough you have your opinion and it's pointless debating. Your not going to change your's and I can't see mine changing unless you bring few facts to the party regarding the attacks. So we're wasting each other's time and it's getting late. Early start tomorrow.

This boyo doesn't deal in facts, this platform is ideal for him to slander folk with no evidence all under the cloak of anonymity, a coward of the highest order.

Slander folk?

What about the QIH directors who have been the subject to this campaign of violence, intimidation and slander?

As usual you have a lot to say but it's all hot air. Why don't you put your name to it rather than hiding behind your username?

The irony, you really are a bit of a ballbag aren't you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 09:12:25 PM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 11:23:14 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 11:17:39 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 01:02:42 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
You do realise that the KL attack ended any chance of SQ being involved in QIH again. He publicly admitted this. So explain me the logic behind the attack in that case?

I don't believe that at all, Sean Quinn claimed he was a fool who was duped by the banks 10 years ago, now he is claiming he wouldn't have anything to do with these attacks as only a fool would do it and he's not a fool. He's a pathological liar.

The logic behind that attack was to intimidate the QIH management meeting to step down and for potential investors to be warned, make business in its current situation unprofitable and untenable and allow to Quinns to swan in and pick the business up for a song

What SQ publicly proclaims is probably going to be a million miles from the truth and then there is SQJ to take into account......
Fair enough you have your opinion and it's pointless debating. Your not going to change your's and I can't see mine changing unless you bring few facts to the party regarding the attacks. So we're wasting each other's time and it's getting late. Early start tomorrow.

This boyo doesn't deal in facts, this platform is ideal for him to slander folk with no evidence all under the cloak of anonymity, a coward of the highest order.

Slander folk?

What about the QIH directors who have been the subject to this campaign of violence, intimidation and slander?

As usual you have a lot to say but it's all hot air. Why don't you put your name to it rather than hiding behind your username?

The irony, you really are a bit of a ballbag aren't you.

I'm a guy who can express his opinions and articulate why.

You're the guy who goes around blowing off hot air and personally insulting people as you are very insecure about your intellectual ability or lack of.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 09:35:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 09:12:25 PM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 11:23:14 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 11:17:39 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 01:02:42 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
You do realise that the KL attack ended any chance of SQ being involved in QIH again. He publicly admitted this. So explain me the logic behind the attack in that case?

I don't believe that at all, Sean Quinn claimed he was a fool who was duped by the banks 10 years ago, now he is claiming he wouldn't have anything to do with these attacks as only a fool would do it and he's not a fool. He's a pathological liar.

The logic behind that attack was to intimidate the QIH management meeting to step down and for potential investors to be warned, make business in its current situation unprofitable and untenable and allow to Quinns to swan in and pick the business up for a song

What SQ publicly proclaims is probably going to be a million miles from the truth and then there is SQJ to take into account......
Fair enough you have your opinion and it's pointless debating. Your not going to change your's and I can't see mine changing unless you bring few facts to the party regarding the attacks. So we're wasting each other's time and it's getting late. Early start tomorrow.

This boyo doesn't deal in facts, this platform is ideal for him to slander folk with no evidence all under the cloak of anonymity, a coward of the highest order.

Slander folk?

What about the QIH directors who have been the subject to this campaign of violence, intimidation and slander?

As usual you have a lot to say but it's all hot air. Why don't you put your name to it rather than hiding behind your username?

The irony, you really are a bit of a ballbag aren't you.

I'm a guy who can express his opinions and articulate why.

You're the guy who goes around blowing off hot air and personally insulting people as you are very insecure about your intellectual ability or lack of.
Ignore thought that was at me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 03, 2019, 09:23:15 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 04:58:56 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 02:24:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 01:07:33 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 02, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 02, 2019, 12:51:08 PM
The alternate theory to S. Quinn being the paymaster, is that the persistent attacks against Quinn Industrial since SQ got the boot, are for the purpose of extortion That the extortionists have travelled with all guns blazing down the path of high profile blatant sadistic extortion, attracting the the glare of attention from police, media  and public abhorrance . They must the dumbest extrortionist gang in history.

And perhaps their support for the cause of SQ is because? ....  he paid the extortion on time with a christmass bonus thrown in for good measure?


Or they laundered money through it back when it was creaking and want it back. The Dub is too pig headed to see he has played his hand waaaay to aggressively

So the alternate theory to SQ being the paymaster or SQ indulged the extortionists is that SQ was a moneylaunderer?

Why not?

So the defence of Quinn is that he's a money launderer for criminals?
im not defending that virus in shoes
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map

It's about 30 minutes from the border.

This extortion gang must not be fully committed to their extortion business or expanding their market.

Or it may be because it is a bunch of thugs for hire who are being hired to carry out these attacks and it has nothing to do with extortion.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map

It's about 30 minutes from the border.

This extortion gang must not be fully committed to their extortion business or expanding their market.

Or it may be because it is a bunch of thugs for hire who are being hired to carry out these attacks and it has nothing to do with extortion.

You said nearby to Quinn which it's not.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:03:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map

It's about 30 minutes from the border.

This extortion gang must not be fully committed to their extortion business or expanding their market.

Or it may be because it is a bunch of thugs for hire who are being hired to carry out these attacks and it has nothing to do with extortion.

You said nearby to Quinn which it's not.

I think you will find it was you who phrased it nearby to Quinns , not I.

And I'm glad that you are agreeing this extortion gang are only fair weather extortionists which is a somewhat self defeating excuse for SQ?

Can you explain why other big businesses near the border region are not being targeted for extortion in a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation as you believe QIH are?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:09:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:03:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map

It's about 30 minutes from the border.

This extortion gang must not be fully committed to their extortion business or expanding their market.

Or it may be because it is a bunch of thugs for hire who are being hired to carry out these attacks and it has nothing to do with extortion.

You said nearby to Quinn which it's not.

I think you will find it was you who phrased it nearby to Quinns , not I.

And I'm glad that you are agreeing this extortion gang are only fair weather extortionists which is a somewhat self defeating excuse for SQ?

Can you explain why other big businesses near the border region are not being targeted for extortion in a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation as you believe QIH are?

Where did I say any gang was using extortion against any company. I gave my thoughts on what was going on earlier and never mentioned that. So what are you blathering on about now?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:29:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:09:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:03:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map

It's about 30 minutes from the border.

This extortion gang must not be fully committed to their extortion business or expanding their market.

Or it may be because it is a bunch of thugs for hire who are being hired to carry out these attacks and it has nothing to do with extortion.

You said nearby to Quinn which it's not.

I think you will find it was you who phrased it nearby to Quinns , not I.

And I'm glad that you are agreeing this extortion gang are only fair weather extortionists which is a somewhat self defeating excuse for SQ?

Can you explain why other big businesses near the border region are not being targeted for extortion in a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation as you believe QIH are?

Where did I say any gang was using extortion against any company. I gave my thoughts on what was going on earlier and never mentioned that. So what are you blathering on about now?



Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

You told us you believe that the CIRA are looking to latch on to a cause, that is refuted both by the Gardai and the QIH directors.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/kevin-lunney-attack-criminal-gang-has-no-political-ideology-1.4029321

You told us that there is a worry that jobs might go and assets will be sold, a few of us on here have shown that be absolute pie in the sky stuff.

There's only one fairly plausible explanation in terms of why these attacks are taking place and who could possibly be behind them, I think it's quite clear who the people who are the victims of this campaign of violence and intimidation believe is behind it. They don't believe it is extortion, they don't believe it's political, they don't believe it's a vigilante mob of angry locals - they believe it's a gang of thugs who have been hired to carry out these acts by a wealthy benefactor who will stand to gain from the Quinn family regaining ownership.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:31:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:29:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:09:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:03:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map

It's about 30 minutes from the border.

This extortion gang must not be fully committed to their extortion business or expanding their market.

Or it may be because it is a bunch of thugs for hire who are being hired to carry out these attacks and it has nothing to do with extortion.

You said nearby to Quinn which it's not.

I think you will find it was you who phrased it nearby to Quinns , not I.

And I'm glad that you are agreeing this extortion gang are only fair weather extortionists which is a somewhat self defeating excuse for SQ?

Can you explain why other big businesses near the border region are not being targeted for extortion in a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation as you believe QIH are?

Where did I say any gang was using extortion against any company. I gave my thoughts on what was going on earlier and never mentioned that. So what are you blathering on about now?



Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

You told us you believe that the CIRA are looking to latch on to a cause, that is refuted both by the Gardai and the QIH directors.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/kevin-lunney-attack-criminal-gang-has-no-political-ideology-1.4029321

You told us that there is a worry that jobs might go and assets will be sold, a few of us on here have shown that be absolute pie in the sky stuff.

There's only one fairly plausible explanation in terms of why these attacks are taking place and who could possibly be behind them, I think it's quite clear who the people who are the victims of this campaign of violence and intimidation believe is behind it. They don't believe it is extortion, they don't believe it's political, they don't believe it's a vigilante mob of angry locals - they believe it's a gang of thugs who have been hired to carry out these acts by a wealthy benefactor who will stand to gain from the Quinn family regaining ownership.

Where did I mention extortion????

Just confirm I didnt and move on and stop making an even bigger fool of yourself.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:37:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:31:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:29:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:09:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:03:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map

It's about 30 minutes from the border.

This extortion gang must not be fully committed to their extortion business or expanding their market.

Or it may be because it is a bunch of thugs for hire who are being hired to carry out these attacks and it has nothing to do with extortion.

You said nearby to Quinn which it's not.

I think you will find it was you who phrased it nearby to Quinns , not I.

And I'm glad that you are agreeing this extortion gang are only fair weather extortionists which is a somewhat self defeating excuse for SQ?

Can you explain why other big businesses near the border region are not being targeted for extortion in a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation as you believe QIH are?

Where did I say any gang was using extortion against any company. I gave my thoughts on what was going on earlier and never mentioned that. So what are you blathering on about now?



Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

You told us you believe that the CIRA are looking to latch on to a cause, that is refuted both by the Gardai and the QIH directors.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/kevin-lunney-attack-criminal-gang-has-no-political-ideology-1.4029321

You told us that there is a worry that jobs might go and assets will be sold, a few of us on here have shown that be absolute pie in the sky stuff.

There's only one fairly plausible explanation in terms of why these attacks are taking place and who could possibly be behind them, I think it's quite clear who the people who are the victims of this campaign of violence and intimidation believe is behind it. They don't believe it is extortion, they don't believe it's political, they don't believe it's a vigilante mob of angry locals - they believe it's a gang of thugs who have been hired to carry out these acts by a wealthy benefactor who will stand to gain from the Quinn family regaining ownership.

Where did I mention extortion????

Just confirm I didnt and move on and stop making an even bigger fool of yourself.

I'm not making a fool of myself.

I'm just looking through some of the scenarios and I think it's fair to say some of the excuses trotted out for SQ here are risible and you are heavily involved in that.

The stuff about jobs being at risk and relocation is absolutely mental and makes absolutely no commercial sense yet you put it up as a reason.
The extortion angle falls at the first hurdle, the political angle falls at the first hurdle.

The only theory regarding the motive of the attacks that seems very plausible is that of which the victims of this campaign, believe is what is happening - thugs for hire are being paid by a wealthy benefactor who stands to gain from the Quinn family regaining control over the business.

Yet you don't believe that is the case, you put up pie in the sky theories as a more realistic motive.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:39:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:37:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:31:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:29:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:09:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:03:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map

It's about 30 minutes from the border.

This extortion gang must not be fully committed to their extortion business or expanding their market.

Or it may be because it is a bunch of thugs for hire who are being hired to carry out these attacks and it has nothing to do with extortion.

You said nearby to Quinn which it's not.

I think you will find it was you who phrased it nearby to Quinns , not I.

And I'm glad that you are agreeing this extortion gang are only fair weather extortionists which is a somewhat self defeating excuse for SQ?

Can you explain why other big businesses near the border region are not being targeted for extortion in a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation as you believe QIH are?

Where did I say any gang was using extortion against any company. I gave my thoughts on what was going on earlier and never mentioned that. So what are you blathering on about now?



Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

You told us you believe that the CIRA are looking to latch on to a cause, that is refuted both by the Gardai and the QIH directors.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/kevin-lunney-attack-criminal-gang-has-no-political-ideology-1.4029321

You told us that there is a worry that jobs might go and assets will be sold, a few of us on here have shown that be absolute pie in the sky stuff.

There's only one fairly plausible explanation in terms of why these attacks are taking place and who could possibly be behind them, I think it's quite clear who the people who are the victims of this campaign of violence and intimidation believe is behind it. They don't believe it is extortion, they don't believe it's political, they don't believe it's a vigilante mob of angry locals - they believe it's a gang of thugs who have been hired to carry out these acts by a wealthy benefactor who will stand to gain from the Quinn family regaining ownership.

Where did I mention extortion????

Just confirm I didnt and move on and stop making an even bigger fool of yourself.

I'm not making a fool of myself.

I'm just looking through some of the scenarios and I think it's fair to say some of the excuses trotted out for SQ here are risible and you are heavily involved in that.

The stuff about jobs being at risk and relocation is absolutely mental and makes absolutely no commercial sense yet you put it up as a reason.
The extortion angle falls at the first hurdle, the political angle falls at the first hurdle.

The only theory regarding the motive of the attacks that seems very plausible is that of which the victims of this campaign, believe is what is happening - thugs for hire are being paid by a wealthy benefactor who stands to gain from the Quinn family regaining control over the business.

Yet you don't believe that is the case, you put up pie in the sky theories as a more realistic motive.

WHERE DID I MENTION EXTORTION?

It is a simple question.

Hint - The answer is that I didnt and you were wrong to suggest I did.

Now I am finished in dealing with you, you are clearly incapable of holding any sort of rational discussion so you can fire away posting shite to your hearts content unchallenged in this thread now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:47:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:39:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:37:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:31:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:29:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:09:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:03:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map

It's about 30 minutes from the border.

This extortion gang must not be fully committed to their extortion business or expanding their market.

Or it may be because it is a bunch of thugs for hire who are being hired to carry out these attacks and it has nothing to do with extortion.

You said nearby to Quinn which it's not.

I think you will find it was you who phrased it nearby to Quinns , not I.

And I'm glad that you are agreeing this extortion gang are only fair weather extortionists which is a somewhat self defeating excuse for SQ?

Can you explain why other big businesses near the border region are not being targeted for extortion in a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation as you believe QIH are?

Where did I say any gang was using extortion against any company. I gave my thoughts on what was going on earlier and never mentioned that. So what are you blathering on about now?



Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

You told us you believe that the CIRA are looking to latch on to a cause, that is refuted both by the Gardai and the QIH directors.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/kevin-lunney-attack-criminal-gang-has-no-political-ideology-1.4029321

You told us that there is a worry that jobs might go and assets will be sold, a few of us on here have shown that be absolute pie in the sky stuff.

There's only one fairly plausible explanation in terms of why these attacks are taking place and who could possibly be behind them, I think it's quite clear who the people who are the victims of this campaign of violence and intimidation believe is behind it. They don't believe it is extortion, they don't believe it's political, they don't believe it's a vigilante mob of angry locals - they believe it's a gang of thugs who have been hired to carry out these acts by a wealthy benefactor who will stand to gain from the Quinn family regaining ownership.

Where did I mention extortion????

Just confirm I didnt and move on and stop making an even bigger fool of yourself.

I'm not making a fool of myself.

I'm just looking through some of the scenarios and I think it's fair to say some of the excuses trotted out for SQ here are risible and you are heavily involved in that.

The stuff about jobs being at risk and relocation is absolutely mental and makes absolutely no commercial sense yet you put it up as a reason.
The extortion angle falls at the first hurdle, the political angle falls at the first hurdle.

The only theory regarding the motive of the attacks that seems very plausible is that of which the victims of this campaign, believe is what is happening - thugs for hire are being paid by a wealthy benefactor who stands to gain from the Quinn family regaining control over the business.

Yet you don't believe that is the case, you put up pie in the sky theories as a more realistic motive.

WHERE DID I MENTION EXTORTION?

It is a simple question.

Hint - The answer is that I didnt and you were wrong to suggest I did.

Now I am finished in dealing with you, you are clearly incapable of holding any sort of rational discussion so you can fire away posting shite to your hearts content unchallenged in this thread now.

Maybe you should have stated you didn't mention extortion before you got into a debate trying to defend that angle. I put forward the example of Kingspan as a means of pouring cold water on the extortion angle - you got involved in the debate then and now when you realise how silly you looked trying to defend it, you are saying you never mentioned extortion. You tried to defend it as a plausible theory though.

I'm aghast that the only theory you have tried to discount here is the one that is the only seriously plausible one.

If we are talking about rational and logical debate here then you are deluded beyond any realm of sensibility. Remind us how jobs are at risk of QIH relocating all their plant equipment, machinery, skilled labour, commercial location, competitive labour costs, access to their main market, raw materials and so forth to an alternative in what is clearly a company performing very well commercially as is - because that is exactly what you put forward as a motivation for these attacks.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: t_mac on November 03, 2019, 08:52:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 09:12:25 PM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 11:23:14 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 11:17:39 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 01:02:42 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
You do realise that the KL attack ended any chance of SQ being involved in QIH again. He publicly admitted this. So explain me the logic behind the attack in that case?

I don't believe that at all, Sean Quinn claimed he was a fool who was duped by the banks 10 years ago, now he is claiming he wouldn't have anything to do with these attacks as only a fool would do it and he's not a fool. He's a pathological liar.

The logic behind that attack was to intimidate the QIH management meeting to step down and for potential investors to be warned, make business in its current situation unprofitable and untenable and allow to Quinns to swan in and pick the business up for a song

What SQ publicly proclaims is probably going to be a million miles from the truth and then there is SQJ to take into account......
Fair enough you have your opinion and it's pointless debating. Your not going to change your's and I can't see mine changing unless you bring few facts to the party regarding the attacks. So we're wasting each other's time and it's getting late. Early start tomorrow.

This boyo doesn't deal in facts, this platform is ideal for him to slander folk with no evidence all under the cloak of anonymity, a coward of the highest order.

Slander folk?

What about the QIH directors who have been the subject to this campaign of violence, intimidation and slander?

As usual you have a lot to say but it's all hot air. Why don't you put your name to it rather than hiding behind your username?

The irony, you really are a bit of a ballbag aren't you.

I'm a guy who can express his opinions and articulate why.

You're the guy who goes around blowing off hot air and personally insulting people as you are very insecure about your intellectual ability or lack of.

No you are a coward spouting shite about folk under the cloak of anonymity, if you think you have any intellectual ability that just means you are a delusional ballbag.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 03, 2019, 08:59:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:47:42 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:39:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:37:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:31:32 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:29:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 07:09:27 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 07:03:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 03, 2019, 01:05:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 03, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 02, 2019, 12:03:14 PM
What company is nearby to Quinns and "worth" 10 times as much? Are you  talking about Kingspan?

Yes.

By nearby you mean about an hour away. Take a look at a map

It's about 30 minutes from the border.

This extortion gang must not be fully committed to their extortion business or expanding their market.

Or it may be because it is a bunch of thugs for hire who are being hired to carry out these attacks and it has nothing to do with extortion.

You said nearby to Quinn which it's not.

I think you will find it was you who phrased it nearby to Quinns , not I.

And I'm glad that you are agreeing this extortion gang are only fair weather extortionists which is a somewhat self defeating excuse for SQ?

Can you explain why other big businesses near the border region are not being targeted for extortion in a sustained campaign of violence and intimidation as you believe QIH are?

Where did I say any gang was using extortion against any company. I gave my thoughts on what was going on earlier and never mentioned that. So what are you blathering on about now?



Quote from: Itchy on October 31, 2019, 05:22:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
QuoteParish priest claims 'angry' Sean Quinn confronted him

THE parish priest of Ballyconnell, Fr Oliver O'Reilly, who in a homily blamed the abduction and attack on Kevin Lunney on a 'Mafia-style group' with its own godfather, has responded to Sean Quinn's first television interview since the attack.

Friday night's interview with Mr Quinn, on Channel 4 on Friday evening heard the former tycoon recall how he was "very nice to the priest" when he visited him at his parochial house, but he told him, "you're wrong, wrong, wrong," in relation to his homily. However, Fr O'Reilly told the Sunday Independent that when Mr Quinn called at his door he was "angry" and was "objecting to the tone of my homily".

The priest said he told Mr Quinn that the person he referred to in the homily "could be anybody".

https://fermanaghherald.com/2019/10/parish-priest-claims-angry-sean-quinn-confronted-him/

Do you know the priest? I do and his brother too. And I can tell you most locals were not too impressed with his "homily", he actually brought in a outsiders to cheer him on. Mad for limelight, hence going talking to newspapers. The truth that many are missing, and not condoning what is going on, is that there is a threat that assets will be sold in the area. This thuggery is a reaction to that and I personally do not believe there is a "godfather" behind it. I believe this is a CIRA group trying to look relevant by latching onto a cause.

You told us you believe that the CIRA are looking to latch on to a cause, that is refuted both by the Gardai and the QIH directors.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/kevin-lunney-attack-criminal-gang-has-no-political-ideology-1.4029321

You told us that there is a worry that jobs might go and assets will be sold, a few of us on here have shown that be absolute pie in the sky stuff.

There's only one fairly plausible explanation in terms of why these attacks are taking place and who could possibly be behind them, I think it's quite clear who the people who are the victims of this campaign of violence and intimidation believe is behind it. They don't believe it is extortion, they don't believe it's political, they don't believe it's a vigilante mob of angry locals - they believe it's a gang of thugs who have been hired to carry out these acts by a wealthy benefactor who will stand to gain from the Quinn family regaining ownership.

Where did I mention extortion????

Just confirm I didnt and move on and stop making an even bigger fool of yourself.

I'm not making a fool of myself.

I'm just looking through some of the scenarios and I think it's fair to say some of the excuses trotted out for SQ here are risible and you are heavily involved in that.

The stuff about jobs being at risk and relocation is absolutely mental and makes absolutely no commercial sense yet you put it up as a reason.
The extortion angle falls at the first hurdle, the political angle falls at the first hurdle.

The only theory regarding the motive of the attacks that seems very plausible is that of which the victims of this campaign, believe is what is happening - thugs for hire are being paid by a wealthy benefactor who stands to gain from the Quinn family regaining control over the business.

Yet you don't believe that is the case, you put up pie in the sky theories as a more realistic motive.

WHERE DID I MENTION EXTORTION?

It is a simple question.

Hint - The answer is that I didnt and you were wrong to suggest I did.

Now I am finished in dealing with you, you are clearly incapable of holding any sort of rational discussion so you can fire away posting shite to your hearts content unchallenged in this thread now.

Maybe you should have stated you didn't mention extortion before you got into a debate trying to defend that angle. I put forward the example of Kingspan as a means of pouring cold water on the extortion angle - you got involved in the debate then and now when you realise how silly you looked trying to defend it, you are saying you never mentioned extortion. You tried to defend it as a plausible theory though.

I'm aghast that the only theory you have tried to discount here is the one that is the only seriously plausible one.

If we are talking about rational and logical debate here then you are deluded beyond any realm of sensibility. Remind us how jobs are at risk of QIH relocating all their plant equipment, machinery, skilled labour, commercial location, competitive labour costs, access to their main market, raw materials and so forth to an alternative in what is clearly a company performing very well commercially as is - because that is exactly what you put forward as a motivation for these attacks.
You have a theory. Your entitled to that. Indeed you may even be right about it. But there's no facts to back up what you are very  clearly alluding to. That's what you struggle with.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on November 04, 2019, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 03, 2019, 08:59:38 PM
You have a theory. Your entitled to that. Indeed you may even be right about it. But there's no facts to back up what you are very  clearly alluding to. That's what you struggle with.

Sorry SS.  Have to call you on this one.  There are no facts to prove what he is alluding to but there are plenty of facts back it up.

I started out (and may indeed have posted in this thread) as a defender of SQ.  I've done a complete 180 here in the past few months/years and I'd say there's plenty more like me.

He thinks he has an automatic right to re-take ownership of a business he lost through reckless gambling.  He doesn't.

He spat the dummy and walked away when basically presented with an unbelievably generous gift of £1m per year.  This beggars belief.  I'd be fairly sure this money would have come even if he never put his nose in the gate of one of those premises in his life again.

The business would seem to be in safe hands and local employment is being maintained.

SQ needs to suck it up and step away.  He built a great business but got too big for his boots, started dabbling in stuff he hadn't a clue about and got burned.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on November 04, 2019, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 03, 2019, 08:59:38 PM
You have a theory. Your entitled to that. Indeed you may even be right about it. But there's no facts to back up what you are very  clearly alluding to. That's what you struggle with.

Sorry SS.  Have to call you on this one.  There are no facts to prove what he is alluding to but there are plenty of facts back it up.

I started out (and may indeed have posted in this thread) as a defender of SQ.  I've done a complete 180 here in the past few months/years and I'd say there's plenty more like me.

He thinks he has an automatic right to re-take ownership of a business he lost through reckless gambling.  He doesn't.

He spat the dummy and walked away when basically presented with an unbelievably generous gift of £1m per year.  This beggars belief.  I'd be fairly sure this money would have come even if he never put his nose in the gate of one of those premises in his life again.

The business would seem to be in safe hands and local employment is being maintained.

SQ needs to suck it up and step away.  He built a great business but got too big for his boots, started dabbling in stuff he hadn't a clue about and got burned.

What are the facts to back it up?

One of the facts is that Kevin Lunny's nose was broken by a disgruntled family member of a Quinn employee who was dismissed by Kevin a week earlier. To suggest Sean Quinn was the 'mastermind' behind that attack is ludicrous. Another fact is that Lunny's bid to buy the businesses was only successful after other businessmen had been intimidated out of buying it.

It's as plausible to suggest that Lunny was responsible for other businesses being intimidated initially as it is to suggest that Sean Quinn is now responsible for the current campaign.  Now I don't believe Kevin Lunny or Quinn were involved directly in the campaign but both for a time didn't do much to publicly object to it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 04, 2019, 07:21:18 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 04, 2019, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 03, 2019, 08:59:38 PM
You have a theory. Your entitled to that. Indeed you may even be right about it. But there's no facts to back up what you are very  clearly alluding to. That's what you struggle with.

Sorry SS.  Have to call you on this one.  There are no facts to prove what he is alluding to but there are plenty of facts back it up.

I started out (and may indeed have posted in this thread) as a defender of SQ.  I've done a complete 180 here in the past few months/years and I'd say there's plenty more like me.

He thinks he has an automatic right to re-take ownership of a business he lost through reckless gambling.  He doesn't.

He spat the dummy and walked away when basically presented with an unbelievably generous gift of £1m per year.  This beggars belief.  I'd be fairly sure this money would have come even if he never put his nose in the gate of one of those premises in his life again.

The business would seem to be in safe hands and local employment is being maintained.

SQ needs to suck it up and step away.  He built a great business but got too big for his boots, started dabbling in stuff he hadn't a clue about and got burned.

What are the facts to back it up?

One of the facts is that Kevin Lunny's nose was broken by a disgruntled family member of a Quinn employee who was dismissed by Kevin a week earlier. To suggest Sean Quinn was the 'mastermind' behind that attack is ludicrous. Another fact is that Lunny's bid to buy the businesses was only successful after other businessmen had been intimidated out of buying it.

It's as plausible to suggest that Lunny was responsible for other businesses being intimidated initially as it is to suggest that Sean Quinn is now responsible for the current campaign.  Now I don't believe Kevin Lunny or Quinn were involved directly in the campaign but both for a time didn't do much to publicly object to it.

The common denominator being Quinn stood to benefit from both campaigns of intimidation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on November 04, 2019, 08:15:53 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 04, 2019, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 03, 2019, 08:59:38 PM
You have a theory. Your entitled to that. Indeed you may even be right about it. But there's no facts to back up what you are very  clearly alluding to. That's what you struggle with.

Sorry SS.  Have to call you on this one.  There are no facts to prove what he is alluding to but there are plenty of facts back it up.

I started out (and may indeed have posted in this thread) as a defender of SQ.  I've done a complete 180 here in the past few months/years and I'd say there's plenty more like me.

He thinks he has an automatic right to re-take ownership of a business he lost through reckless gambling.  He doesn't.

He spat the dummy and walked away when basically presented with an unbelievably generous gift of £1m per year.  This beggars belief.  I'd be fairly sure this money would have come even if he never put his nose in the gate of one of those premises in his life again.

The business would seem to be in safe hands and local employment is being maintained.

SQ needs to suck it up and step away.  He built a great business but got too big for his boots, started dabbling in stuff he hadn't a clue about and got burned.

What are the facts to back it up?

One of the facts is that Kevin Lunny's nose was broken by a disgruntled family member of a Quinn employee who was dismissed by Kevin a week earlier. To suggest Sean Quinn was the 'mastermind' behind that attack is ludicrous. Another fact is that Lunny's bid to buy the businesses was only successful after other businessmen had been intimidated out of buying it.

It's as plausible to suggest that Lunny was responsible for other businesses being intimidated initially as it is to suggest that Sean Quinn is now responsible for the current campaign.  Now I don't believe Kevin Lunny or Quinn were involved directly in the campaign but both for a time didn't do much to publicly object to it.

1. The fact that SQ has made no secret of the fact that he wants/expects to regain control of the business.

2. The fact that one of the main company executives was kidnapped and beaten.

3. The fact that SQ would likely stand to benefit if these executives were to relinquish control of the business.

... I could go on for a LOT longer.

Like I say. None of these facts proves anything. But they all support the theory.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 04, 2019, 08:52:41 PM
Quote from: t_mac on November 03, 2019, 08:52:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 09:12:25 PM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 11:23:14 AM
Quote from: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 11:17:39 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 01:02:42 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:52:14 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 02, 2019, 12:12:46 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 02, 2019, 12:06:20 AM
Quote from: fearbrags on November 01, 2019, 11:37:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 01, 2019, 10:26:53 PM
Quote from: redzone on November 01, 2019, 10:11:24 PM
Nothing to do with quinn. About protection money, or lack of it.

Bull

Shit

Well It makes sense to me Ie When Sean was in charge he paid the ""protection money"" now they dont pay it so these rough man tactics are the result

It's a risible and insulting theory.

Why do the victims of the attacks not think that it is a protection racket? They have been very explicit in saying that the attacks have been carried out by thugs for hire and that there's a moneyman behind them. The protection racket must be a multi million pound per annum gig with Quinn as the campaign is sure as hell costing a lot to run.

Did this extortion gang ever think of targetting Kingspan who have a market value in the billions? They could make a killing if they go with the same campaign as they have conducted against QIH.
You do realise that the KL attack ended any chance of SQ being involved in QIH again. He publicly admitted this. So explain me the logic behind the attack in that case?

I don't believe that at all, Sean Quinn claimed he was a fool who was duped by the banks 10 years ago, now he is claiming he wouldn't have anything to do with these attacks as only a fool would do it and he's not a fool. He's a pathological liar.

The logic behind that attack was to intimidate the QIH management meeting to step down and for potential investors to be warned, make business in its current situation unprofitable and untenable and allow to Quinns to swan in and pick the business up for a song

What SQ publicly proclaims is probably going to be a million miles from the truth and then there is SQJ to take into account......
Fair enough you have your opinion and it's pointless debating. Your not going to change your's and I can't see mine changing unless you bring few facts to the party regarding the attacks. So we're wasting each other's time and it's getting late. Early start tomorrow.

This boyo doesn't deal in facts, this platform is ideal for him to slander folk with no evidence all under the cloak of anonymity, a coward of the highest order.

Slander folk?

What about the QIH directors who have been the subject to this campaign of violence, intimidation and slander?

As usual you have a lot to say but it's all hot air. Why don't you put your name to it rather than hiding behind your username?

The irony, you really are a bit of a ballbag aren't you.

I'm a guy who can express his opinions and articulate why.

You're the guy who goes around blowing off hot air and personally insulting people as you are very insecure about your intellectual ability or lack of.

No you are a coward spouting shite about folk under the cloak of anonymity, if you think you have any intellectual ability that just means you are a delusional ballbag.

Hot air. Insults.

A pity you can't back yourself to discuss the issue rather than land your cheap shots, it says much more about you than I.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 04, 2019, 09:47:27 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 08:15:53 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 04, 2019, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 03, 2019, 08:59:38 PM
You have a theory. Your entitled to that. Indeed you may even be right about it. But there's no facts to back up what you are very  clearly alluding to. That's what you struggle with.

Sorry SS.  Have to call you on this one.  There are no facts to prove what he is alluding to but there are plenty of facts back it up.

I started out (and may indeed have posted in this thread) as a defender of SQ.  I've done a complete 180 here in the past few months/years and I'd say there's plenty more like me.

He thinks he has an automatic right to re-take ownership of a business he lost through reckless gambling.  He doesn't.

He spat the dummy and walked away when basically presented with an unbelievably generous gift of £1m per year.  This beggars belief.  I'd be fairly sure this money would have come even if he never put his nose in the gate of one of those premises in his life again.

The business would seem to be in safe hands and local employment is being maintained.

SQ needs to suck it up and step away.  He built a great business but got too big for his boots, started dabbling in stuff he hadn't a clue about and got burned.

What are the facts to back it up?

One of the facts is that Kevin Lunny's nose was broken by a disgruntled family member of a Quinn employee who was dismissed by Kevin a week earlier. To suggest Sean Quinn was the 'mastermind' behind that attack is ludicrous. Another fact is that Lunny's bid to buy the businesses was only successful after other businessmen had been intimidated out of buying it.

It's as plausible to suggest that Lunny was responsible for other businesses being intimidated initially as it is to suggest that Sean Quinn is now responsible for the current campaign.  Now I don't believe Kevin Lunny or Quinn were involved directly in the campaign but both for a time didn't do much to publicly object to it.

1. The fact that SQ has made no secret of the fact that he wants/expects to regain control of the business.

2. The fact that one of the main company executives was kidnapped and beaten.

3. The fact that SQ would likely stand to benefit if these executives were to relinquish control of the business.

... I could go on for a LOT longer.

Like I say. None of these facts proves anything. But they all support the theory.
But these attacks were always going to throw light on SQ. And as a result make him uninvestable. Some may dispute it but SQ isn't stupid, anyone would have seen how this would play out. And it certainly wasn't in SQ's favour.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:13:20 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 04, 2019, 09:47:27 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 08:15:53 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 04, 2019, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 03, 2019, 08:59:38 PM
You have a theory. Your entitled to that. Indeed you may even be right about it. But there's no facts to back up what you are very  clearly alluding to. That's what you struggle with.

Sorry SS.  Have to call you on this one.  There are no facts to prove what he is alluding to but there are plenty of facts back it up.

I started out (and may indeed have posted in this thread) as a defender of SQ.  I've done a complete 180 here in the past few months/years and I'd say there's plenty more like me.

He thinks he has an automatic right to re-take ownership of a business he lost through reckless gambling.  He doesn't.

He spat the dummy and walked away when basically presented with an unbelievably generous gift of £1m per year.  This beggars belief.  I'd be fairly sure this money would have come even if he never put his nose in the gate of one of those premises in his life again.

The business would seem to be in safe hands and local employment is being maintained.

SQ needs to suck it up and step away.  He built a great business but got too big for his boots, started dabbling in stuff he hadn't a clue about and got burned.

What are the facts to back it up?

One of the facts is that Kevin Lunny's nose was broken by a disgruntled family member of a Quinn employee who was dismissed by Kevin a week earlier. To suggest Sean Quinn was the 'mastermind' behind that attack is ludicrous. Another fact is that Lunny's bid to buy the businesses was only successful after other businessmen had been intimidated out of buying it.

It's as plausible to suggest that Lunny was responsible for other businesses being intimidated initially as it is to suggest that Sean Quinn is now responsible for the current campaign.  Now I don't believe Kevin Lunny or Quinn were involved directly in the campaign but both for a time didn't do much to publicly object to it.

1. The fact that SQ has made no secret of the fact that he wants/expects to regain control of the business.

2. The fact that one of the main company executives was kidnapped and beaten.

3. The fact that SQ would likely stand to benefit if these executives were to relinquish control of the business.

... I could go on for a LOT longer.

Like I say. None of these facts proves anything. But they all support the theory.
But these attacks were always going to throw light on SQ. And as a result make him uninvestable. Some may dispute it but SQ isn't stupid, anyone would have seen how this would play out. And it certainly wasn't in SQ's favour.

A sustained and relentless campaign of violence and intimidation against QIH directors without any cessation until SQ is back in control of his former business empire does not play out in favour of SQ?

Is that not the exact opposite behind the intention of the attacks, you make the big mistake of believing SQ.

SQ reckoned he was stupid and the banks duped him when he gambled all his money away on Anglo Irish shares, he did so to try and wrangle his way out of his debt. Now he's telling us he's not stupid........
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 05, 2019, 09:05:23 AM
I'd imagine SQ didn't get into the position he was in without greasing a few palms along the way.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 09:15:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:13:20 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 04, 2019, 09:47:27 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 08:15:53 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 04, 2019, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 03, 2019, 08:59:38 PM
You have a theory. Your entitled to that. Indeed you may even be right about it. But there's no facts to back up what you are very  clearly alluding to. That's what you struggle with.

Sorry SS.  Have to call you on this one.  There are no facts to prove what he is alluding to but there are plenty of facts back it up.

I started out (and may indeed have posted in this thread) as a defender of SQ.  I've done a complete 180 here in the past few months/years and I'd say there's plenty more like me.

He thinks he has an automatic right to re-take ownership of a business he lost through reckless gambling.  He doesn't.

He spat the dummy and walked away when basically presented with an unbelievably generous gift of £1m per year.  This beggars belief.  I'd be fairly sure this money would have come even if he never put his nose in the gate of one of those premises in his life again.

The business would seem to be in safe hands and local employment is being maintained.

SQ needs to suck it up and step away.  He built a great business but got too big for his boots, started dabbling in stuff he hadn't a clue about and got burned.

What are the facts to back it up?

One of the facts is that Kevin Lunny's nose was broken by a disgruntled family member of a Quinn employee who was dismissed by Kevin a week earlier. To suggest Sean Quinn was the 'mastermind' behind that attack is ludicrous. Another fact is that Lunny's bid to buy the businesses was only successful after other businessmen had been intimidated out of buying it.

It's as plausible to suggest that Lunny was responsible for other businesses being intimidated initially as it is to suggest that Sean Quinn is now responsible for the current campaign.  Now I don't believe Kevin Lunny or Quinn were involved directly in the campaign but both for a time didn't do much to publicly object to it.

1. The fact that SQ has made no secret of the fact that he wants/expects to regain control of the business.

2. The fact that one of the main company executives was kidnapped and beaten.

3. The fact that SQ would likely stand to benefit if these executives were to relinquish control of the business.

... I could go on for a LOT longer.

Like I say. None of these facts proves anything. But they all support the theory.
But these attacks were always going to throw light on SQ. And as a result make him uninvestable. Some may dispute it but SQ isn't stupid, anyone would have seen how this would play out. And it certainly wasn't in SQ's favour.

A sustained and relentless campaign of violence and intimidation against QIH directors without any cessation until SQ is back in control of his former business empire does not play out in favour of SQ?

Is that not the exact opposite behind the intention of the attacks, you make the big mistake of believing SQ.

SQ reckoned he was stupid and the banks duped him when he gambled all his money away on Anglo Irish shares, he did so to try and wrangle his way out of his debt. Now he's telling us he's not stupid........
Explain how the Kevin lunney attack has helped SQ regain any control/ ownership in QIH? It hasn't and it was never going to. If you can't accept that, as I mentioned earlier fine. I'll politely disagree. The attack is being linked to SQ either directly or done in his name.  SQ doesn't have the money to buy back the group, He would have had to look for financial backing from investors to do so. Do you think any investor would touch him now? The attack was totally counterproductive to what SQ wanted to do. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:01:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 09:15:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:13:20 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 04, 2019, 09:47:27 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 08:15:53 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 04, 2019, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 03, 2019, 08:59:38 PM
You have a theory. Your entitled to that. Indeed you may even be right about it. But there's no facts to back up what you are very  clearly alluding to. That's what you struggle with.

Sorry SS.  Have to call you on this one.  There are no facts to prove what he is alluding to but there are plenty of facts back it up.

I started out (and may indeed have posted in this thread) as a defender of SQ.  I've done a complete 180 here in the past few months/years and I'd say there's plenty more like me.

He thinks he has an automatic right to re-take ownership of a business he lost through reckless gambling.  He doesn't.

He spat the dummy and walked away when basically presented with an unbelievably generous gift of £1m per year.  This beggars belief.  I'd be fairly sure this money would have come even if he never put his nose in the gate of one of those premises in his life again.

The business would seem to be in safe hands and local employment is being maintained.

SQ needs to suck it up and step away.  He built a great business but got too big for his boots, started dabbling in stuff he hadn't a clue about and got burned.

What are the facts to back it up?

One of the facts is that Kevin Lunny's nose was broken by a disgruntled family member of a Quinn employee who was dismissed by Kevin a week earlier. To suggest Sean Quinn was the 'mastermind' behind that attack is ludicrous. Another fact is that Lunny's bid to buy the businesses was only successful after other businessmen had been intimidated out of buying it.

It's as plausible to suggest that Lunny was responsible for other businesses being intimidated initially as it is to suggest that Sean Quinn is now responsible for the current campaign.  Now I don't believe Kevin Lunny or Quinn were involved directly in the campaign but both for a time didn't do much to publicly object to it.

1. The fact that SQ has made no secret of the fact that he wants/expects to regain control of the business.

2. The fact that one of the main company executives was kidnapped and beaten.

3. The fact that SQ would likely stand to benefit if these executives were to relinquish control of the business.

... I could go on for a LOT longer.

Like I say. None of these facts proves anything. But they all support the theory.
But these attacks were always going to throw light on SQ. And as a result make him uninvestable. Some may dispute it but SQ isn't stupid, anyone would have seen how this would play out. And it certainly wasn't in SQ's favour.

A sustained and relentless campaign of violence and intimidation against QIH directors without any cessation until SQ is back in control of his former business empire does not play out in favour of SQ?

Is that not the exact opposite behind the intention of the attacks, you make the big mistake of believing SQ.

SQ reckoned he was stupid and the banks duped him when he gambled all his money away on Anglo Irish shares, he did so to try and wrangle his way out of his debt. Now he's telling us he's not stupid........
Explain how the Kevin lunney attack has helped SQ regain any control/ ownership in QIH? It hasn't and it was never going to. If you can't accept that, as I mentioned earlier fine. I'll politely disagree. The attack is being linked to SQ either directly or done in his name.  SQ doesn't have the money to buy back the group, He would have had to look for financial backing from investors to do so. Do you think any investor would touch him now? The attack was totally counterproductive to what SQ wanted to do.

The campaign has not succeeded so far as the QIH directors have been steadfast in not letting themselves be intimidated but it is explicitly stated by those carrying out the attacks that they want SQ back in control so the motive of this campaign is for the benefit of the Quinn family, unequivocally.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 12:19:10 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:01:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 09:15:32 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:13:20 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 04, 2019, 09:47:27 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 08:15:53 PM
Quote from: trileacman on November 04, 2019, 07:01:15 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 04, 2019, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 03, 2019, 08:59:38 PM
You have a theory. Your entitled to that. Indeed you may even be right about it. But there's no facts to back up what you are very  clearly alluding to. That's what you struggle with.

Sorry SS.  Have to call you on this one.  There are no facts to prove what he is alluding to but there are plenty of facts back it up.

I started out (and may indeed have posted in this thread) as a defender of SQ.  I've done a complete 180 here in the past few months/years and I'd say there's plenty more like me.

He thinks he has an automatic right to re-take ownership of a business he lost through reckless gambling.  He doesn't.

He spat the dummy and walked away when basically presented with an unbelievably generous gift of £1m per year.  This beggars belief.  I'd be fairly sure this money would have come even if he never put his nose in the gate of one of those premises in his life again.

The business would seem to be in safe hands and local employment is being maintained.

SQ needs to suck it up and step away.  He built a great business but got too big for his boots, started dabbling in stuff he hadn't a clue about and got burned.

What are the facts to back it up?

One of the facts is that Kevin Lunny's nose was broken by a disgruntled family member of a Quinn employee who was dismissed by Kevin a week earlier. To suggest Sean Quinn was the 'mastermind' behind that attack is ludicrous. Another fact is that Lunny's bid to buy the businesses was only successful after other businessmen had been intimidated out of buying it.

It's as plausible to suggest that Lunny was responsible for other businesses being intimidated initially as it is to suggest that Sean Quinn is now responsible for the current campaign.  Now I don't believe Kevin Lunny or Quinn were involved directly in the campaign but both for a time didn't do much to publicly object to it.

1. The fact that SQ has made no secret of the fact that he wants/expects to regain control of the business.

2. The fact that one of the main company executives was kidnapped and beaten.

3. The fact that SQ would likely stand to benefit if these executives were to relinquish control of the business.

... I could go on for a LOT longer.

Like I say. None of these facts proves anything. But they all support the theory.
But these attacks were always going to throw light on SQ. And as a result make him uninvestable. Some may dispute it but SQ isn't stupid, anyone would have seen how this would play out. And it certainly wasn't in SQ's favour.

A sustained and relentless campaign of violence and intimidation against QIH directors without any cessation until SQ is back in control of his former business empire does not play out in favour of SQ?

Is that not the exact opposite behind the intention of the attacks, you make the big mistake of believing SQ.

SQ reckoned he was stupid and the banks duped him when he gambled all his money away on Anglo Irish shares, he did so to try and wrangle his way out of his debt. Now he's telling us he's not stupid........
Explain how the Kevin lunney attack has helped SQ regain any control/ ownership in QIH? It hasn't and it was never going to. If you can't accept that, as I mentioned earlier fine. I'll politely disagree. The attack is being linked to SQ either directly or done in his name.  SQ doesn't have the money to buy back the group, He would have had to look for financial backing from investors to do so. Do you think any investor would touch him now? The attack was totally counterproductive to what SQ wanted to do.

The campaign has not succeeded so far as the QIH directors have been steadfast in not letting themselves be intimidated but it is explicitly stated by those carrying out the attacks that they want SQ back in control so the motive of this campaign is for the benefit of the Quinn family, unequivocally.

I have no doubt that you are right. That the attacks are being done in his name (I do believe there's a personal element regarding the Lunneys as well). But I don't believe that he was the ring leader/ paymaster organising the attacks. The attacks were just counter productive to what he wanted to achieve. There is no argument against that. Even if the Directors wanted to sell QIH which investors would take their life in their own hands to invest in SQ now? It just doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:25:25 PM
 I wouldn't say they were counter productive, they have just been unsuccessful in their intentions. Quinn would be no longer closer to regaining control without them as he has been as they've been carried out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 12:31:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:25:25 PM
I wouldn't say they were counter productive, they have just been unsuccessful in their intentions. Quinn would be no longer closer to regaining control without them as he has been as they've been carried out.

SQ has stated that he is no longer looking to pursue any interest in the group as a result of the attack to make it clear that he wants no hand in the attacks. That wouldn't have been a decision that SQ would have made easily. So if the idea of the attacks was getting the group back under control then I would say it's counterproductive to why you believe the attacks were carried out. 
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 01:33:00 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 12:31:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:25:25 PM
I wouldn't say they were counter productive, they have just been unsuccessful in their intentions. Quinn would be no longer closer to regaining control without them as he has been as they've been carried out.

SQ has stated that he is no longer looking to pursue any interest in the group as a result of the attack to make it clear that he wants no hand in the attacks. That wouldn't have been a decision that SQ would have made easily. So if the idea of the attacks was getting the group back under control then I would say it's counterproductive to why you believe the attacks were carried out. 


I don't believe him when he states that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 01:36:46 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 01:33:00 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 12:31:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:25:25 PM
I wouldn't say they were counter productive, they have just been unsuccessful in their intentions. Quinn would be no longer closer to regaining control without them as he has been as they've been carried out.

SQ has stated that he is no longer looking to pursue any interest in the group as a result of the attack to make it clear that he wants no hand in the attacks. That wouldn't have been a decision that SQ would have made easily. So if the idea of the attacks was getting the group back under control then I would say it's counterproductive to why you believe the attacks were carried out. 


I don't believe him when he states that.

Fair enough.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 05, 2019, 03:47:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 12:31:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:25:25 PM
I wouldn't say they were counter productive, they have just been unsuccessful in their intentions. Quinn would be no longer closer to regaining control without them as he has been as they've been carried out.

SQ has stated that he is no longer looking to pursue any interest in the group as a result of the attack to make it clear that he wants no hand in the attacks. That wouldn't have been a decision that SQ would have made easily. So if the idea of the attacks was getting the group back under control then I would say it's counterproductive to why you believe the attacks were carried out. 

Do you believe that?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 05, 2019, 03:47:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 12:31:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:25:25 PM
I wouldn't say they were counter productive, they have just been unsuccessful in their intentions. Quinn would be no longer closer to regaining control without them as he has been as they've been carried out.

SQ has stated that he is no longer looking to pursue any interest in the group as a result of the attack to make it clear that he wants no hand in the attacks. That wouldn't have been a decision that SQ would have made easily. So if the idea of the attacks was getting the group back under control then I would say it's counterproductive to why you believe the attacks were carried out. 

Do you believe that?
Yes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 05, 2019, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 05, 2019, 03:47:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 12:31:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:25:25 PM
I wouldn't say they were counter productive, they have just been unsuccessful in their intentions. Quinn would be no longer closer to regaining control without them as he has been as they've been carried out.

SQ has stated that he is no longer looking to pursue any interest in the group as a result of the attack to make it clear that he wants no hand in the attacks. That wouldn't have been a decision that SQ would have made easily. So if the idea of the attacks was getting the group back under control then I would say it's counterproductive to why you believe the attacks were carried out. 

Do you believe that?
Yes.
Good for you. Can you see why others don't?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 06:20:48 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 05, 2019, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 05, 2019, 03:47:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 05, 2019, 12:31:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 05, 2019, 12:25:25 PM
I wouldn't say they were counter productive, they have just been unsuccessful in their intentions. Quinn would be no longer closer to regaining control without them as he has been as they've been carried out.

SQ has stated that he is no longer looking to pursue any interest in the group as a result of the attack to make it clear that he wants no hand in the attacks. That wouldn't have been a decision that SQ would have made easily. So if the idea of the attacks was getting the group back under control then I would say it's counterproductive to why you believe the attacks were carried out. 

Do you believe that?
Yes.
Good for you. Can you see why others don't?
Yes
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 05, 2019, 11:24:20 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCSpotlightNI/status/1191856534076239872
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on November 05, 2019, 11:40:11 PM
Shocking stuff in this show.

4 things.

This was not about protection money.  Our resident peddlers of that myth can shut up anytime.  The attackers repeatedly asked him to resign his position and (I can't really believe what I'm about to type...) carved the letters QIH into his chest with a stanley knife.

It's unlikely that SQ will ever make any inroads into the business again... and rightly so.

If he did, I wouldn't buy as much as a brick from that company. (Not that he'd care much I'm sure, but fcuk him)

There are those in the local community who know the score here but are keeping their mouths shut.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 06, 2019, 01:46:01 AM
https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/1105/1088927-kevin-lunney/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on November 06, 2019, 08:09:10 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 05, 2019, 11:40:11 PM
Shocking stuff in this show.

4 things.

This was not about protection money.  Our resident peddlers of that myth can shut up anytime.  The attackers repeatedly asked him to resign his position and (I can't really believe what I'm about to type...) carved the letters QIH into his chest with a stanley knife.

It's unlikely that SQ will ever make any inroads into the business again... and rightly so.

If he did, I wouldn't buy as much as a brick from that company. (Not that he'd care much I'm sure, but fcuk him)


There are those in the local community who know the score here but are keeping their mouths shut.

No-one would. This attack has completely screwed up any chance of Quinn getting back, and also tainted his legacy amongst many who would have supported him. This was an obvious outcome, even for these knuckleheads, so it is really hard to see the precise motivation. Perhaps it is just as simple as revenge, but it surely couldn't have been aimed at reinstating Quinn, for any action like this instantly made that impossible.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 09:44:06 AM
Is there a chance that Quinn knows he's not getting it back at this stage so has just decided to cause as much harm to those who have wronged him as possible??

The whole thing stinks!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 09:47:00 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 05, 2019, 11:40:11 PM
Shocking stuff in this show.

4 things.

This was not about protection money.  Our resident peddlers of that myth can shut up anytime.  The attackers repeatedly asked him to resign his position and (I can't really believe what I'm about to type...) carved the letters QIH into his chest with a stanley knife.

It's unlikely that SQ will ever make any inroads into the business again... and rightly so.

If he did, I wouldn't buy as much as a brick from that company. (Not that he'd care much I'm sure, but fcuk him)

There are those in the local community who know the score here but are keeping their mouths shut.

That description of how they engraved QIH into his chest before dumping him was harrowing and this appeared to be a pre planned strategy which is chilling. Must be a horrible environment for people to have to work in that company now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 12:03:37 PM
So what do the Pro Quinn posters here believe is the motive behind these attacks now that you can effectively rule out extortion?

Do they really believe this is vingilantism when it's clearly heavily funded by a moneyman?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: square_ball on November 06, 2019, 12:09:40 PM
The directors are brave men to be continuing in their posts working under in kind of atmosphere. I'm not sure if I could continue if I was in their shoes. They all have young families too.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 06, 2019, 12:15:59 PM
Quote from: square_ball on November 06, 2019, 12:09:40 PM
The directors are brave men to be continuing in their posts working under in kind of atmosphere. I'm not sure if I could continue if I was in their shoes. They all have young families too.

What else can they do really? Families need provided for
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: square_ball on November 06, 2019, 12:20:46 PM
By the sounds of it they are highly intelligent men they could walk into a high paying job without the threats hanging over their heads. I'm just saying the thought would certainly be high up in my mind. Yes it's letting them win but I don't know if I personally could live my life in the current conditions.

As I say they are brave for continuing and fair play to them for that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gallsman on November 06, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Quote from: square_ball on November 06, 2019, 12:20:46 PM
By the sounds of it they are highly intelligent men they could walk into a high paying job without the threats hanging over their heads. I'm just saying the thought would certainly be high up in my mind. Yes it's letting them win but I don't know if I personally could live my life in the current conditions.

As I say they are brave for continuing and fair play to them for that.

I'm the Fermanagh-Cavan area?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: square_ball on November 06, 2019, 12:46:06 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 06, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Quote from: square_ball on November 06, 2019, 12:20:46 PM
By the sounds of it they are highly intelligent men they could walk into a high paying job without the threats hanging over their heads. I'm just saying the thought would certainly be high up in my mind. Yes it's letting them win but I don't know if I personally could live my life in the current conditions.

As I say they are brave for continuing and fair play to them for that.

I'm the Fermanagh-Cavan area?

Are they restricted to just the Fermanagh-Cavan area for work?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 12:03:37 PM
So what do the Pro Quinn posters here believe is the motive behind these attacks now that you can effectively rule out extortion?

Do they really believe this is vingilantism when it's clearly heavily funded by a moneyman?

If that was aimed at me, I had never claimed it was extortion. But it's equally as clear that the result of the attack is bad news for SQ. So do I think he was orchestrating things, No.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Joeythelips on November 06, 2019, 12:55:07 PM
I live across the pond and am new to this story, it reached news over here since BBC spotlight shed some light on it. Can someone sum it up for me here if possible? Quinn Holdings is been attacked by criminals for what purpose? Who benefits or what is the overall goal?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnnycool on November 06, 2019, 12:59:30 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 12:03:37 PM
So what do the Pro Quinn posters here believe is the motive behind these attacks now that you can effectively rule out extortion?

Do they really believe this is vingilantism when it's clearly heavily funded by a moneyman?

If that was aimed at me, I had never claimed it was extortion. But it's equally as clear that the result of the attack is bad news for SQ. So do I think he was orchestrating things, No.   

Who possibly stands to gain from these lads standing down?

Even if he's not involved it really doesn't reflect well on Sean and his family.

Maybe if he come out and said he's no interest in getting involved in QIH ever again then that might take some of the spotlight away from him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 01:13:35 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 06, 2019, 12:59:30 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 12:03:37 PM
So what do the Pro Quinn posters here believe is the motive behind these attacks now that you can effectively rule out extortion?

Do they really believe this is vingilantism when it's clearly heavily funded by a moneyman?

If that was aimed at me, I had never claimed it was extortion. But it's equally as clear that the result of the attack is bad news for SQ. So do I think he was orchestrating things, No.   

Who possibly stands to gain from these lads standing down?

Even if he's not involved it really doesn't reflect well on Sean and his family.

Maybe if he come out and said he's no interest in getting involved in QIH ever again then that might take some of the spotlight away from him.

He has. In the interview with C4 he has withdrawn any interest in trying to pursue a return to the business now as a result of the attack.
I don't think there is much else he can do if he's not involved directly.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Taylor on November 06, 2019, 01:18:53 PM
Quote from: square_ball on November 06, 2019, 12:20:46 PM
By the sounds of it they are highly intelligent men they could walk into a high paying job without the threats hanging over their heads. I'm just saying the thought would certainly be high up in my mind. Yes it's letting them win but I don't know if I personally could live my life in the current conditions.

As I say they are brave for continuing and fair play to them for that.

+1

It would be the only thing in my mind.
Its all fair and well having a high paid job but what use are you to your family if you are dead - which is exactly what the threats now are
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gallsman on November 06, 2019, 01:21:46 PM
Quote from: square_ball on November 06, 2019, 12:46:06 PM
Quote from: gallsman on November 06, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Quote from: square_ball on November 06, 2019, 12:20:46 PM
By the sounds of it they are highly intelligent men they could walk into a high paying job without the threats hanging over their heads. I'm just saying the thought would certainly be high up in my mind. Yes it's letting them win but I don't know if I personally could live my life in the current conditions.

As I say they are brave for continuing and fair play to them for that.

I'm the Fermanagh-Cavan area?

Are they restricted to just the Fermanagh-Cavan area for work?

Of course not, but that's not the point, is it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 01:25:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 12:03:37 PM
So what do the Pro Quinn posters here believe is the motive behind these attacks now that you can effectively rule out extortion?

Do they really believe this is vingilantism when it's clearly heavily funded by a moneyman?

If that was aimed at me, I had never claimed it was extortion. But it's equally as clear that the result of the attack is bad news for SQ. So do I think he was orchestrating things, No.   

Haven't really followed the story totally either but if it wasn't SQ orchestrating things then surely it was someone with a lot to gain financially from him regaining control of the business. If it is not SQ personally, then it would appear to be somebody close to him. Even if you simply sympathised with SQ's plight, that would not be enough to burn peoples homes, business, issue death threats and punishment beatings. That would just be the actions of a psychopath and you would think that there would have to be some other motive financial related. To claim extortion simply does not look feasible in this case especially when you hear of Lunney saying that he heard his attackers making a phonecall back to their boss on their way to driving him to a remote location before the beating.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 01:38:03 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 01:25:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 12:03:37 PM
So what do the Pro Quinn posters here believe is the motive behind these attacks now that you can effectively rule out extortion?

Do they really believe this is vingilantism when it's clearly heavily funded by a moneyman?

If that was aimed at me, I had never claimed it was extortion. But it's equally as clear that the result of the attack is bad news for SQ. So do I think he was orchestrating things, No.   

Haven't really followed the story totally either but if it wasn't SQ orchestrating things then surely it was someone with a lot to gain financially from him regaining control of the business. If it is not SQ personally, then it would appear to be somebody close to him. Even if you simply sympathised with SQ's plight, that would not be enough to burn peoples homes, business, issue death threats and punishment beatings. That would just be the actions of a psychopath and you would think that there would have to be some other motive financial related. To claim extortion simply does not look feasible in this case especially when you hear of Lunney saying that he heard his attackers making a phonecall back to their boss on their way to driving him to a remote location before the beating.

I wouldn't and haven't argued that it wasn't been done in SQ's name. You have to remember the level of support he had in the local area and how motivated some people were in his support. He had 5000 people on the streets in Ballyconnell in the past. He helped a lot of local families over the years and it's been obvious the level of loyalty to him was fairly unique.
But I can't square how this attack would have worked in SQ's favour. There was always going to be a huge public outcry, there was always going to be huge media focus on the Quinns as a result, regardless of whether he's not involved directly it was always going to reflect bad on him and there was always going to be people pointing the finger at him. None of that works in his favour in trying to gain financial backing to be in a position to purchase QIH which was what SQ's end goal was. It would take stupidity of the highest level to be involved. And I don't think he's stupid.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dire Ear on November 06, 2019, 02:12:15 PM
I really don't know enough about this case to be on one side or another.
But,  on a purely observational level,  did anyone else think that Kevin Lunney looked like he was lying in parts of that last night?  Just on body language....
Of course I know how tough the interview was given the beating,  fear for his family,  pure emotion of recalling the harrowing events of that night.. etc.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on November 06, 2019, 02:14:35 PM
Quote from: Dire Ear on November 06, 2019, 02:12:15 PM
I really don't know enough about this case to be on one side or another.
But,  on a purely observational level,  did anyone else think that Kevin Lunney looked like he was lying in parts of that last night?  Just on body language....
Of course I know how tough the interview was given the beating,  fear for his family,  pure emotion of recalling the harrowing events of that night.. etc.

Not on any level, whatsoever.  If anything I thought he came across as a very genuine and honest man.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on November 06, 2019, 02:25:26 PM
Quote from: square_ball on November 06, 2019, 12:20:46 PM
By the sounds of it they are highly intelligent men they could walk into a high paying job without the threats hanging over their heads. I'm just saying the thought would certainly be high up in my mind. Yes it's letting them win but I don't know if I personally could live my life in the current conditions.

As I say they are brave for continuing and fair play to them for that.

They own part of the company.  Not so easy to leave. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on November 06, 2019, 02:34:54 PM
Quote from: Dire Ear on November 06, 2019, 02:12:15 PM
I really don't know enough about this case to be on one side or another.
But,  on a purely observational level,  did anyone else think that Kevin Lunney looked like he was lying in parts of that last night?  Just on body language....
Of course I know how tough the interview was given the beating,  fear for his family,  pure emotion of recalling the harrowing events of that night.. etc.

Didnt catch it all but talking about lying i thought when SQ was asked about the attack his body language wasnt great to say the least, an expert couldve had a field day
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 01:38:03 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 01:25:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 12:03:37 PM
So what do the Pro Quinn posters here believe is the motive behind these attacks now that you can effectively rule out extortion?

Do they really believe this is vingilantism when it's clearly heavily funded by a moneyman?

If that was aimed at me, I had never claimed it was extortion. But it's equally as clear that the result of the attack is bad news for SQ. So do I think he was orchestrating things, No.   

Haven't really followed the story totally either but if it wasn't SQ orchestrating things then surely it was someone with a lot to gain financially from him regaining control of the business. If it is not SQ personally, then it would appear to be somebody close to him. Even if you simply sympathised with SQ's plight, that would not be enough to burn peoples homes, business, issue death threats and punishment beatings. That would just be the actions of a psychopath and you would think that there would have to be some other motive financial related. To claim extortion simply does not look feasible in this case especially when you hear of Lunney saying that he heard his attackers making a phonecall back to their boss on their way to driving him to a remote location before the beating.

I wouldn't and haven't argued that it wasn't been done in SQ's name. You have to remember the level of support he had in the local area and how motivated some people were in his support. He had 5000 people on the streets in Ballyconnell in the past. He helped a lot of local families over the years and it's been obvious the level of loyalty to him was fairly unique.
But I can't square how this attack would have worked in SQ's favour. There was always going to be a huge public outcry, there was always going to be huge media focus on the Quinns as a result, regardless of whether he's not involved directly it was always going to reflect bad on him and there was always going to be people pointing the finger at him. None of that works in his favour in trying to gain financial backing to be in a position to purchase QIH which was what SQ's end goal was. It would take stupidity of the highest level to be involved. And I don't think he's stupid.

It works in his favour if it's successful, if the directors step down and the business goes on the market. It works in his favour if the campaign of violence and intimidation is threatened against anyone else who wishes to purchase it other than SQ.

This is the same family, let us not forget, that hid assets to the value of hundreds of millions in order to renege on debts they had accumulated. They decided the taxpayer would have to pick it up.

It's quite clear SQ couldn't give a damn about anyone but himself.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dire Ear on November 06, 2019, 03:06:08 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on November 06, 2019, 02:34:54 PM
Quote from: Dire Ear on November 06, 2019, 02:12:15 PM
I really don't know enough about this case to be on one side or another.
But,  on a purely observational level,  did anyone else think that Kevin Lunney looked like he was lying in parts of that last night?  Just on body language....
Of course I know how tough the interview was given the beating,  fear for his family,  pure emotion of recalling the harrowing events of that night.. etc.

Didnt catch it all but talking about lying i thought when SQ was asked about the attack his body language wasnt great to say the least, an expert couldve had a field day
It's a fascinating subject
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 03:13:03 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 01:38:03 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 01:25:36 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 06, 2019, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 12:03:37 PM
So what do the Pro Quinn posters here believe is the motive behind these attacks now that you can effectively rule out extortion?

Do they really believe this is vingilantism when it's clearly heavily funded by a moneyman?

If that was aimed at me, I had never claimed it was extortion. But it's equally as clear that the result of the attack is bad news for SQ. So do I think he was orchestrating things, No.   

Haven't really followed the story totally either but if it wasn't SQ orchestrating things then surely it was someone with a lot to gain financially from him regaining control of the business. If it is not SQ personally, then it would appear to be somebody close to him. Even if you simply sympathised with SQ's plight, that would not be enough to burn peoples homes, business, issue death threats and punishment beatings. That would just be the actions of a psychopath and you would think that there would have to be some other motive financial related. To claim extortion simply does not look feasible in this case especially when you hear of Lunney saying that he heard his attackers making a phonecall back to their boss on their way to driving him to a remote location before the beating.

I wouldn't and haven't argued that it wasn't been done in SQ's name. You have to remember the level of support he had in the local area and how motivated some people were in his support. He had 5000 people on the streets in Ballyconnell in the past. He helped a lot of local families over the years and it's been obvious the level of loyalty to him was fairly unique.
But I can't square how this attack would have worked in SQ's favour. There was always going to be a huge public outcry, there was always going to be huge media focus on the Quinns as a result, regardless of whether he's not involved directly it was always going to reflect bad on him and there was always going to be people pointing the finger at him. None of that works in his favour in trying to gain financial backing to be in a position to purchase QIH which was what SQ's end goal was. It would take stupidity of the highest level to be involved. And I don't think he's stupid.


It works in his favour if it's successful, if the directors step down and the business goes on the market.
It works in his favour if the campaign of violence and intimidation is threatened against anyone else who wishes to purchase it other than SQ.

This is the same family, let us not forget, that hid assets to the value of hundreds of millions in order to renege on debts they had accumulated. They decided the taxpayer would have to pick it up.

It's quite clear SQ couldn't give a damn about anyone but himself.
Not unless he was able to purchase it with investment. Of which he has ruled himself out of doing. That beside the point that there's enough mud there now that he's unlikely to get investment in any business venture again.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 03:16:49 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on November 06, 2019, 02:34:54 PM
Quote from: Dire Ear on November 06, 2019, 02:12:15 PM
I really don't know enough about this case to be on one side or another.
But,  on a purely observational level,  did anyone else think that Kevin Lunney looked like he was lying in parts of that last night?  Just on body language....
Of course I know how tough the interview was given the beating,  fear for his family,  pure emotion of recalling the harrowing events of that night.. etc.

Didnt catch it all but talking about lying i thought when SQ was asked about the attack his body language wasnt great to say the least, an expert couldve had a field day

I would be similar in that I don't really know enough about the story that people living in the area would do. However it never even crossed my mind that Lunney was lying, it certainly never appeared that way to me. Nor did I think that SQ was necessarily lying either but I never seen the full C4 interview and that's not to say that either weren't.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 06, 2019, 03:51:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
It works in his favour if it's successful, if the directors step down and the business goes on the market. It works in his favour if the campaign of violence and intimidation is threatened against anyone else who wishes to purchase it other than SQ.

This is the same family, let us not forget, that hid assets to the value of hundreds of millions in order to renege on debts they had accumulated. They decided the taxpayer would have to pick it up.

It's quite clear SQ couldn't give a damn about anyone but himself.

Another executive was on Pat Kenny's radio show yesterday and he made a couple of points.  Firstly, he claims it was their intention from the start to get Sean Quinn "back behind his desk".  He said they were to revive and maintain company while Quinn "rehabilitated" financially.   Secondly, he said that under no circumstances would his parent company put the business on the market.  He said the risk for them of setting a precedent of conceding to these tactics would far outweigh the cost of just shutting the whole lot down.   

So basically he said anyone thinking that Sean Quinn or anyone else would profit from them walking away was purely delusional.

/Jim.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 04:05:18 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 06, 2019, 03:51:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
It works in his favour if it's successful, if the directors step down and the business goes on the market. It works in his favour if the campaign of violence and intimidation is threatened against anyone else who wishes to purchase it other than SQ.

This is the same family, let us not forget, that hid assets to the value of hundreds of millions in order to renege on debts they had accumulated. They decided the taxpayer would have to pick it up.

It's quite clear SQ couldn't give a damn about anyone but himself.

Another executive was on Pat Kenny's radio show yesterday and he made a couple of points.  Firstly, he claims it was their intention from the start to get Sean Quinn "back behind his desk".  He said they were to revive and maintain company while Quinn "rehabilitated" financially.   Secondly, he said that under no circumstances would his parent company put the business on the market.  He said the risk for them of setting a precedent of conceding to these tactics would far outweigh the cost of just shutting the whole lot down.   

So basically he said anyone thinking that Sean Quinn or anyone else would profit from them walking away was purely delusional.

/Jim.

That campaign has failed but the intention of it was for the Quinn family to profit from it and I can see only one family who would reaped the rewards from the campaign succeeding.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 05:54:40 PM
I wonder why Lunney and McCartin were never asked about how they themselves gained from violence against the previous buyers? Bullets were sent in the post, threats made and a flaming kerosene truck was driven through the reception to name but a few things. These acts were perpetrated by most likely the same group and they forced the last buyers out and allowed the current consortium in. Who knew about that?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 06, 2019, 06:13:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 05:54:40 PM
I wonder why Lunney and McCartin were never asked about how they themselves gained from violence against the previous buyers? Bullets were sent in the post, threats made and a flaming kerosene truck was driven through the reception to name but a few things. These acts were perpetrated by most likely the same group and they forced the last buyers out and allowed the current consortium in. Who knew about that?

Wasn't Anglo/IBRC the owner back then? They never had any strategic interest in holding onto the Quinn properties so it wouldn't be accurate to say that they were forced out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on November 06, 2019, 06:21:46 PM
Oh right. Lunney and Mc Cartin were behind the orchestrated attacks on Quinn previously in a bid to unseat the Quinn family! And as its the same group as you insinuate Itchy maybe Lunney and Mc Cartin forgot to keep up with their protection money installments. Therefore the beating and threats of beatings to other directors. Is that your take on it??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 06:22:24 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 05:54:40 PM
I wonder why Lunney and McCartin were never asked about how they themselves gained from violence against the previous buyers? Bullets were sent in the post, threats made and a flaming kerosene truck was driven through the reception to name but a few things. These acts were perpetrated by most likely the same group and they forced the last buyers out and allowed the current consortium in. Who knew about that?

But the same group only had interest in SQ regaining control, when their relationship broke down with SQ then the violence, intimidation and sabotage all started up again - in fact it escalated to far more serious acts of violence. It seems the moneyman behind this has his interests unilaterally tied with the Quinn family, coincidence?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 06:29:16 PM
Quote from: five points on November 06, 2019, 06:13:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 05:54:40 PM
I wonder why Lunney and McCartin were never asked about how they themselves gained from violence against the previous buyers? Bullets were sent in the post, threats made and a flaming kerosene truck was driven through the reception to name but a few things. These acts were perpetrated by most likely the same group and they forced the last buyers out and allowed the current consortium in. Who knew about that?

Wasn't Anglo/IBRC the owner back then? They never had any strategic interest in holding onto the Quinn properties so it wouldn't be accurate to say that they were forced out.

Sorry I meant potential buyers, not buyers. There was a campaign to make sure locals business consortium won out.

Angelo - I'm not going to be responding to you as previously stated
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: bannside on November 06, 2019, 06:21:46 PM
Oh right. Lunney and Mc Cartin were behind the orchestrated attacks on Quinn previously in a bid to unseat the Quinn family! And as its the same group as you insinuate Itchy maybe Lunney and Mc Cartin forgot to keep up with their protection money installments. Therefore the beating and threats of beatings to other directors. Is that your take on it??

No  because I didnt say any of that nonsense you just typed there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 06, 2019, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 06:29:16 PM
Quote from: five points on November 06, 2019, 06:13:32 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 05:54:40 PM
I wonder why Lunney and McCartin were never asked about how they themselves gained from violence against the previous buyers? Bullets were sent in the post, threats made and a flaming kerosene truck was driven through the reception to name but a few things. These acts were perpetrated by most likely the same group and they forced the last buyers out and allowed the current consortium in. Who knew about that?

Wasn't Anglo/IBRC the owner back then? They never had any strategic interest in holding onto the Quinn properties so it wouldn't be accurate to say that they were forced out.

Sorry I meant potential buyers, not buyers. There was a campaign to make sure locals business consortium won out.

Angelo - I'm not going to be responding to you as previously stated

You're a Quinn apologist, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 06:52:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 05:54:40 PM
I wonder why Lunney and McCartin were never asked about how they themselves gained from violence against the previous buyers? Bullets were sent in the post, threats made and a flaming kerosene truck was driven through the reception to name but a few things. These acts were perpetrated by most likely the same group and they forced the last buyers out and allowed the current consortium in. Who knew about that?

Would Lunney and McCartin have had any knowledge of or any part to play in authorising or orchestrating the previous acts of intimidation and violence against those potential buyers? I would find that difficult to believe. If you claim that it is most likely this same group, then surely they know who their current attackers are? I'm not totally au fait with this case but something just doesn't add up. It appears as though it has got very personal now and is a desparately sad situation for all concerned. Sean Quinn is what age, I presume he is a man who should be enjoying retirement? Is he going to be consumed by this bitter dispute for the rest of his life, he needs to see the bigger picture. Then you have the directors who have small children and they are prepared to stay put knowing the constant threat against their lives even though they could get surely get decent jobs elsewhere. Sometimes you have to take a step back and ask what is it all about. Money, power, greed, violence, arson and death threats and all for what exactly.     
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: under the bar on November 06, 2019, 06:58:25 PM
Quote
I wonder why Lunney and McCartin were never asked about how they themselves gained from violence against the previous buyers? Bullets were sent in the post, threats made and a flaming kerosene truck was driven through the reception to name but a few things. These acts were perpetrated by most likely the same group and they forced the last buyers out and allowed the current consortium in. Who knew about that?

The Judean People's Front??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: time ticking away on November 06, 2019, 07:16:39 PM
Quote from: under the bar on November 06, 2019, 06:58:25 PM
Quote
I wonder why Lunney and McCartin were never asked about how they themselves gained from violence against the previous buyers? Bullets were sent in the post, threats made and a flaming kerosene truck was driven through the reception to name but a few things. These acts were perpetrated by most likely the same group and they forced the last buyers out and allowed the current consortium in. Who knew about that?

The Judean People's Front??

Splitters
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 07:32:39 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 06:52:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 06, 2019, 05:54:40 PM
I wonder why Lunney and McCartin were never asked about how they themselves gained from violence against the previous buyers? Bullets were sent in the post, threats made and a flaming kerosene truck was driven through the reception to name but a few things. These acts were perpetrated by most likely the same group and they forced the last buyers out and allowed the current consortium in. Who knew about that?

Would Lunney and McCartin have had any knowledge of or any part to play in authorising or orchestrating the previous acts of intimidation and violence against those potential buyers? I would find that difficult to believe. If you claim that it is most likely this same group, then surely they know who their current attackers are? I'm not totally au fait with this case but something just doesn't add up. It appears as though it has got very personal now and is a desparately sad situation for all concerned. Sean Quinn is what age, I presume he is a man who should be enjoying retirement? Is he going to be consumed by this bitter dispute for the rest of his life, he needs to see the bigger picture. Then you have the directors who have small children and they are prepared to stay put knowing the constant threat against their lives even though they could get surely get decent jobs elsewhere. Sometimes you have to take a step back and ask what is it all about. Money, power, greed, violence, arson and death threats and all for what exactly.   

My point is SQ is being blamed as he is alleged to have stood to gain from these attacks. I'm just pointing out he wasnt the only one gained from previous attacks. I don't think any of the board, current or past, has anything to do with the attacks as I've said before.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on November 06, 2019, 07:36:30 PM
So the same group intimidated the old board and are now intimidating the new board. Sounds like they have no allegience to anyone but their paymaster. Question is though, who is the paymaster. Someone is, and someone knows!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Armamike on November 06, 2019, 08:32:52 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on November 06, 2019, 02:34:54 PM
Quote from: Dire Ear on November 06, 2019, 02:12:15 PM
I really don't know enough about this case to be on one side or another.
But,  on a purely observational level,  did anyone else think that Kevin Lunney looked like he was lying in parts of that last night?  Just on body language....
Of course I know how tough the interview was given the beating,  fear for his family,  pure emotion of recalling the harrowing events of that night.. etc.

Didnt catch it all but talking about lying i thought when SQ was asked about the attack his body language wasnt great to say the least, an expert couldve had a field day


Agreed. Kevin Lunney looked pretty plausible to me. 

It's sad to see how bitter Sean Quinn still is, going by his comments and anger in the various footage.  Yes, he's bound to feel aggrieved at a life's work being lost, but time to look in the mirror and take stock of what's important in life.  There's too much greed here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on November 07, 2019, 12:30:18 AM
The perpetrators of the horrific crimes against Kevin Lunney need help. These attacks represent a challenge to mental health provision North and South.

The economic and social fabric is being destroyed by these attacks.

The omertà needs bust wide open
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jim Bob on November 07, 2019, 07:20:55 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 07, 2019, 12:30:18 AM
The perpetrators of the horrific crimes against Kevin Lunney need help. These attacks represent a challenge to mental health provision North and South.

The economic and social fabric is being destroyed by these attacks.

The omertà needs bust wide open

They don't need help they need locked up!!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Taylor on November 08, 2019, 11:43:14 AM
The main suspect behind the attack from Derbyshire has died.

Puts a new light on the situation
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 08, 2019, 11:46:07 AM
Quote from: Taylor on November 08, 2019, 11:43:14 AM
The main suspect behind the attack from Derbyshire has died.

One way of putting it I suppose.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: marty34 on November 08, 2019, 12:00:10 PM
Since all the media and tv interviews etc by the Lunneys etc., the police have stepped up their efforts big time. 

I think they had no option but go public in a very concerted way hoping to put pressure on the cops to up their game.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Taylor on November 08, 2019, 12:09:06 PM
Quote from: five points on November 08, 2019, 11:46:07 AM
Quote from: Taylor on November 08, 2019, 11:43:14 AM
The main suspect behind the attack from Derbyshire has died.

One way of putting it I suppose.

How so?
It is reported he had a heart attack during a police raid
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 08, 2019, 12:21:21 PM
Quote from: Taylor on November 08, 2019, 12:09:06 PM
Quote from: five points on November 08, 2019, 11:46:07 AM
Quote from: Taylor on November 08, 2019, 11:43:14 AM
The main suspect behind the attack from Derbyshire has died.

One way of putting it I suppose.

How so?
It is reported he had a heart attack during a police raid

Hmmm... We'll see.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rodney trotter on November 08, 2019, 12:29:37 PM
He's not from Derbyshire, used it as a hideout. He's from Dublin but lived in Ballyconnell. Dublin Jimmy as he was known. They should find more culprits now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 12:37:43 PM
Hopefully.
Hopefully some of them will spill all the beans.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mrdeeds on November 08, 2019, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: five points on November 08, 2019, 12:21:21 PM
Quote from: Taylor on November 08, 2019, 12:09:06 PM
Quote from: five points on November 08, 2019, 11:46:07 AM
Quote from: Taylor on November 08, 2019, 11:43:14 AM
The main suspect behind the attack from Derbyshire has died.

One way of putting it I suppose.

How so?
It is reported he had a heart attack during a police raid

Hmmm... We'll see.

Jeffrey Epstein was in the house too.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 08, 2019, 01:16:10 PM
I am waiting patiently for Angelo to come along and tell us died by the cyanide pill Sean Quinn gave him if he ever got caught.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 08, 2019, 01:17:51 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 08, 2019, 01:16:10 PM
I am waiting patiently for Angelo to come along and tell us died by the cyanide pill Sean Quinn gave him if he ever got caught.

Hardly likely but he would have been worth more to the investigation alive than dead. That will suit some people.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 08, 2019, 01:26:01 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 08, 2019, 01:16:10 PM
I am waiting patiently for Angelo to come along and tell us died by the cyanide pill Sean Quinn gave him if he ever got caught.

Was waiting for you to come out and defend SQ once again. You didn't let me down.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dec on November 08, 2019, 01:36:04 PM
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/kevin-lunney-quinn-director-attack-mastermind-dies-as-police-carry-out-searches-38673054.html

"The alleged mastermind of the brutal abduction and torture of businessman Kevin Lunney died of a heart attack when English police raided his "safe house" in the UK in a series of searches by three police forces this morning.

Mob boss Cyril McGuinness died when armed police raided the property in the Derby area of England after getting the location of the secret hideout from gardai...

McGuinness who was aged in his early 50s from in Co Fermanagh and has more than 50 convictions."

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 08, 2019, 01:51:33 PM
The post mortem will be interesting, don't think many people will buy the heart attack angle. His secrets now go with him to the grave which can only suit those under whose instructions he was working. Reeks of the Epstein case this. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Aristo 60 on November 08, 2019, 02:50:51 PM
https://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/11/08/4182107-dublin-jimmy-dies-following-raid-on-his-home/

Literally or figuratively?



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Esmarelda on November 08, 2019, 03:08:39 PM
Quote from: dec on November 08, 2019, 01:36:04 PM
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/kevin-lunney-quinn-director-attack-mastermind-dies-as-police-carry-out-searches-38673054.html

"The alleged mastermind of the brutal abduction and torture of businessman Kevin Lunney died of a heart attack when English police raided his "safe house" in the UK in a series of searches by three police forces this morning.

Mob boss Cyril McGuinness died when armed police raided the property in the Derby area of England after getting the location of the secret hideout from gardai...

McGuinness who was aged in his early 50s from in Co Fermanagh and has more than 50 convictions."
Mastermind  ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on November 08, 2019, 03:13:10 PM
I wouldn't claim to be fully up to speed with the whole history of this but is it just me or does it seem like this has all stepped up several gears since the Spotlight programme. Seems like it has pressured the cops on all sides to get their fingers out now that Kevin Lunney has gone public and described his awful ordeal. Or am I just being too cynical and is this the accumulation of months of work which just so happens to coincide with the Spotlight programme. Never any such thing as a coincidence in my book. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 08, 2019, 03:42:07 PM
Why would a well known leader of a criminal gang be so intent to get the Quinn family back in control of their former business empire?

If it is believed he was the man orchestrating the campaign then the question now has to be why?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 08, 2019, 03:53:38 PM
Love the phrase 'Mob Boss'.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on November 08, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
Fermanagh man Cyril McGuinness. Known as Dublin Jimmy. Worst nickname ever. Was Fermanagh Cyril already taken?!  ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 08, 2019, 04:33:41 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on November 08, 2019, 03:13:10 PM
I wouldn't claim to be fully up to speed with the whole history of this but is it just me or does it seem like this has all stepped up several gears since the Spotlight programme. Seems like it has pressured the cops on all sides to get their fingers out now that Kevin Lunney has gone public and described his awful ordeal. Or am I just being too cynical and is this the accumulation of months of work which just so happens to coincide with the Spotlight programme. Never any such thing as a coincidence in my book.

Certainly looks that way, just reading that Dublin Jimmy had run ins with Garda officers before, perhaps they just didn't want to go near this guy for fear of reprisal.

Perhaps it raises questions about the previous structure of the business and whether there was more than a single layer of ownership.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 08, 2019, 04:43:25 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on November 08, 2019, 03:13:10 PM
I wouldn't claim to be fully up to speed with the whole history of this but is it just me or does it seem like this has all stepped up several gears since the Spotlight programme. Seems like it has pressured the cops on all sides to get their fingers out now that Kevin Lunney has gone public and described his awful ordeal. Or am I just being too cynical and is this the accumulation of months of work which just so happens to coincide with the Spotlight programme. Never any such thing as a coincidence in my book.

A firm kick on the hole will do that. I don't blame Lunny for going public, he probably didn't even want to. But something is at least being done anyway.

At first I thought it was some kind of republican gang behind it, but after watching the spotlight show seems like it was amateur hour, holding him up instead of cable ties, then cable tied, then had to cut cable ties to take off the jacket. Maybe I'm giving the aforementioned Republican gangs too much credit but thought they might be a bit 'slicker'....for want of a better word/ 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 08, 2019, 04:46:46 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on November 08, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
Fermanagh man Cyril McGuinness. Known as Dublin Jimmy. Worst nickname ever. Was Fermanagh Cyril already taken?!  ;D
But he was a Dub...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 08, 2019, 04:48:05 PM
I hear the premises raided in Derrylin/ Teemore are linked to the family of the person involved in the incident earlier in the year where KL got his nose broke.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jim Bob on November 08, 2019, 06:39:23 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 08, 2019, 04:43:25 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on November 08, 2019, 03:13:10 PM
I wouldn't claim to be fully up to speed with the whole history of this but is it just me or does it seem like this has all stepped up several gears since the Spotlight programme. Seems like it has pressured the cops on all sides to get their fingers out now that Kevin Lunney has gone public and described his awful ordeal. Or am I just being too cynical and is this the accumulation of months of work which just so happens to coincide with the Spotlight programme. Never any such thing as a coincidence in my book.

A firm kick on the hole will do that. I don't blame Lunny for going public, he probably didn't even want to. But something is at least being done anyway.

At first I thought it was some kind of republican gang behind it, but after watching the spotlight show seems like it was amateur hour, holding him up instead of cable ties, then cable tied, then had to cut cable ties to take off the jacket. Maybe I'm giving the aforementioned Republican gangs too much credit but thought they might be a bit 'slicker'....for want of a better word/

Listening to the victims account the other night it seems a bit of an amateur job myself. Especially when it only occurred to them during the event to go and buy some bleach
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: grounded on November 08, 2019, 07:32:00 PM
Im sure its been put up before but i thought this article gives a fascinating insight into the cement industry in ireland.
https://villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2012/11/the-cement-billionaires/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 08, 2019, 08:39:35 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on November 08, 2019, 06:39:23 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 08, 2019, 04:43:25 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on November 08, 2019, 03:13:10 PM
I wouldn't claim to be fully up to speed with the whole history of this but is it just me or does it seem like this has all stepped up several gears since the Spotlight programme. Seems like it has pressured the cops on all sides to get their fingers out now that Kevin Lunney has gone public and described his awful ordeal. Or am I just being too cynical and is this the accumulation of months of work which just so happens to coincide with the Spotlight programme. Never any such thing as a coincidence in my book.

A firm kick on the hole will do that. I don't blame Lunny for going public, he probably didn't even want to. But something is at least being done anyway.

At first I thought it was some kind of republican gang behind it, but after watching the spotlight show seems like it was amateur hour, holding him up instead of cable ties, then cable tied, then had to cut cable ties to take off the jacket. Maybe I'm giving the aforementioned Republican gangs too much credit but thought they might be a bit 'slicker'....for want of a better word/

Listening to the victims account the other night it seems a bit of an amateur job myself. Especially when it only occurred to them during the event to go and buy some bleach

Well I did tell ye you were dealing with dissident Republicans morons in one of my earlier posts
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rodney trotter on November 09, 2019, 02:38:14 AM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on November 08, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
Fermanagh man Cyril McGuinness. Known as Dublin Jimmy. Worst nickname ever. Was Fermanagh Cyril already taken?!  ;D

When he wss originally from Dublin, its hardly the worst nickname ever...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on November 09, 2019, 08:52:28 AM
Dont take everything you read on tinternet literally wodney
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 09:02:21 AM
The events of this case like those in Essex are utterly repellent but a potential upside is the routing of the type of scumbags that have lorded it around the border area for too long
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 09, 2019, 10:08:07 AM
Quote from: rodney trotter on November 09, 2019, 02:38:14 AM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on November 08, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
Fermanagh man Cyril McGuinness. Known as Dublin Jimmy. Worst nickname ever. Was Fermanagh Cyril already taken?!  ;D

When he wss originally from Dublin, its hardly the worst nickname ever...

I've heard locally that it was his Dublin accent that gave rise to the nickname.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rodney trotter on November 09, 2019, 10:10:27 AM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on November 09, 2019, 08:52:28 AM
Dont take everything you read on tinternet literally wodney

I'm not going by the Internet. He is originally from Swords, sure talk to anyone from Ballyconnell or Derrylin and they will tell you. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 09, 2019, 11:18:43 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/net-closes-on-paymaster-financing-gang-behind-kevin-lunney-abduction-38675437.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dubh driocht on November 09, 2019, 03:31:52 PM
Kevin Lunney is a courageous and heroic Irishman.  I wish him a full recovery.  Everyone should watch Spotlight.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 09, 2019, 09:10:16 PM
Sounds like the 'paymaster' should have a squeaky anus. Family tradition is to leggit though
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: under the bar on November 10, 2019, 01:08:22 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 09, 2019, 09:10:16 PM
Sounds like the 'paymaster' should have a squeaky anus. Family tradition is to leggit though

What's the odds that the odious paymaster is a Liverpool supporter?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Smokin Joe on November 10, 2019, 07:51:10 AM
Reading the reports of what was found in the house in Derbyshire it seems like we must be getting close to understanding who is behind these attacks very soon.
An interesting next week, no doubt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on November 10, 2019, 07:51:10 AM
Reading the reports of what was found in the house in Derbyshire it seems like we must be getting close to understanding who is behind these attacks very soon.
An interesting next week, no doubt.

What was found?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: t_mac on November 10, 2019, 09:43:30 AM
Quote from: under the bar on November 10, 2019, 01:08:22 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on November 09, 2019, 09:10:16 PM
Sounds like the 'paymaster' should have a squeaky anus. Family tradition is to leggit though

What's the odds that the odious paymaster is a Liverpool supporter?

Seriously lad stay of the juice or get the responsible adult in charge to change the wifi settings so you cant post after bedtime.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 09:50:05 AM
Have Itchy and Supersarsfields any idea who the paymaster might be or do they believe that he is a fabrication?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 10, 2019, 10:10:35 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/dublin-jimmy-death-a-police-raid-a-dead-thug-and-a-surprise-offer-38677349.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rodney trotter on November 10, 2019, 11:37:01 AM
The write up in today's Sunday World points it very likely it was Quinn. He never seemed convincing in his interviews.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 09:50:05 AM
Have Itchy and Supersarsfields any idea who the paymaster might be or do they believe that he is a fabrication?
I've a fair idea who I think is behind it. But I'll hold my council till I've something to back it up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 09:50:05 AM
Have Itchy and Supersarsfields any idea who the paymaster might be or do they believe that he is a fabrication?
I've a fair idea who I think is behind it. But I'll hold my council till I've something to back it up.

Whoever it is would need some significant financial clout and a motive behind it which should narrow the suspect list.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:11:55 PM
The following day, Wednesday at 5pm, an email pinged into the inbox of Liam McCaffrey, the chief executive of QIH. It was from Sean Quinn's son, Sean Junior - who along with his father had been brought back into the company on a €100,000 consultancy contract before they were both let go in 2016. Sean Junior had attacked the directors as "pariahs" last year.

"Hi Liam,

"I hope you are doing well after what must have been a very difficult time for all of you but particularly Kevin and his family.

"As you likely saw in Jim Fitzpatrick's piece last night, representatives of the family are more than prepared to attend a meeting with you or with representatives of Quinn Industrial Holdings with a view to exploring if there is some way the parties could work together to try and bring calm to the area. This email is to formally make that offer directly to you in good faith.

Regards,

Sean"

Liam McCaffrey and his colleagues considered the email. The death threat they had received two weeks earlier was fresh in their minds. Its list of issues included the directors' failure to reply to Sean Quinn when he had tried to contact them.

He replied. He was "surprised" given Sean Junior's comments at the "inflammatory meeting" and his references to the directors as "pariahs", "at a time when members of the management team of QIH were the subject of a series of arson attacks and calm was required".

"We are deeply concerned at continuing attempts to position this is a community issue. This peace-loving community is united in support of Kevin and played no part in his abduction."

He declined his offer to meet and urged Sean Junior to go to the police "as a matter of urgency" if he had any information related to the intimidation. "We hope that there will be an atmosphere now that people will feel more comfortable to speak freely ," said John McCartin, one of five directors. "I would hope that the resolve remains to finish this investigation out and to get to the paymaster."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:18:19 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 09:50:05 AM
Have Itchy and Supersarsfields any idea who the paymaster might be or do they believe that he is a fabrication?
I've a fair idea who I think is behind it. But I'll hold my council till I've something to back it up.

Whoever it is would need some significant financial clout and a motive behind it which should narrow the suspect list.
I'm sure we'll find out soon Angelo. I know if I'm wrong and SQ was involved I'll be man enough to admit I was wrong about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cavan19 on November 10, 2019, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:18:19 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 09:50:05 AM
Have Itchy and Supersarsfields any idea who the paymaster might be or do they believe that he is a fabrication?
I've a fair idea who I think is behind it. But I'll hold my council till I've something to back it up.

Whoever it is would need some significant financial clout and a motive behind it which should narrow the suspect list.
I'm sure we'll find out soon Angelo. I know if I'm wrong and SQ was involved I'll be man enough to admit I was wrong about it.

Any of his children hardly crazy enough to be involved?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:24:16 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 10, 2019, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:18:19 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 09:50:05 AM
Have Itchy and Supersarsfields any idea who the paymaster might be or do they believe that he is a fabrication?
I've a fair idea who I think is behind it. But I'll hold my council till I've something to back it up.

Whoever it is would need some significant financial clout and a motive behind it which should narrow the suspect list.
I'm sure we'll find out soon Angelo. I know if I'm wrong and SQ was involved I'll be man enough to admit I was wrong about it.

Any of his children hardly crazy enough to be involved?
Can't see it. The interest in the group was always more SQ than the children. Most of the children have moved on into other things and only one is living local to the Fermanagh/ Cavan area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:28:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:24:16 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 10, 2019, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:18:19 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 09:50:05 AM
Have Itchy and Supersarsfields any idea who the paymaster might be or do they believe that he is a fabrication?
I've a fair idea who I think is behind it. But I'll hold my council till I've something to back it up.

Whoever it is would need some significant financial clout and a motive behind it which should narrow the suspect list.
I'm sure we'll find out soon Angelo. I know if I'm wrong and SQ was involved I'll be man enough to admit I was wrong about it.

Any of his children hardly crazy enough to be involved?
Can't see it. The interest in the group was always more SQ than the children. Most of the children have moved on into other things and only one is living local to the Fermanagh/ Cavan area.

The son still retains a heavy interest in the businesses and has made a number of inflammatory comments about the current directors as outlined in the articles above.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:46:10 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:28:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:24:16 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 10, 2019, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:18:19 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 09:50:05 AM
Have Itchy and Supersarsfields any idea who the paymaster might be or do they believe that he is a fabrication?
I've a fair idea who I think is behind it. But I'll hold my council till I've something to back it up.

Whoever it is would need some significant financial clout and a motive behind it which should narrow the suspect list.
I'm sure we'll find out soon Angelo. I know if I'm wrong and SQ was involved I'll be man enough to admit I was wrong about it.

Any of his children hardly crazy enough to be involved?
Can't see it. The interest in the group was always more SQ than the children. Most of the children have moved on into other things and only one is living local to the Fermanagh/ Cavan area.

The son still retains a heavy interest in the businesses and has made a number of inflammatory comments about the current directors as outlined in the articles above.
He really doesn't. He's more focused on QuinnBet. Does he think much of the Directors? No. But I know his interests lie elsewhere at the minute.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 02:58:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:46:10 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:28:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:24:16 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 10, 2019, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:18:19 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 09:50:05 AM
Have Itchy and Supersarsfields any idea who the paymaster might be or do they believe that he is a fabrication?
I've a fair idea who I think is behind it. But I'll hold my council till I've something to back it up.

Whoever it is would need some significant financial clout and a motive behind it which should narrow the suspect list.
I'm sure we'll find out soon Angelo. I know if I'm wrong and SQ was involved I'll be man enough to admit I was wrong about it.

Any of his children hardly crazy enough to be involved?
Can't see it. The interest in the group was always more SQ than the children. Most of the children have moved on into other things and only one is living local to the Fermanagh/ Cavan area.

The son still retains a heavy interest in the businesses and has made a number of inflammatory comments about the current directors as outlined in the articles above.
He really doesn't. He's more focused on QuinnBet. Does he think much of the Directors? No. But I know his interests lie elsewhere at the minute.

I doubt it, very much like his father I think he wants that business empire back that he feels he is entitled to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cavan19 on November 10, 2019, 03:12:07 PM
Sunday world pointing finger at Quinns.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 03:42:17 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 02:58:24 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:46:10 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:28:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:24:16 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 10, 2019, 01:20:52 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 01:18:19 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 01:02:49 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 10, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 09:50:05 AM
Have Itchy and Supersarsfields any idea who the paymaster might be or do they believe that he is a fabrication?
I've a fair idea who I think is behind it. But I'll hold my council till I've something to back it up.

Whoever it is would need some significant financial clout and a motive behind it which should narrow the suspect list.
I'm sure we'll find out soon Angelo. I know if I'm wrong and SQ was involved I'll be man enough to admit I was wrong about it.

Any of his children hardly crazy enough to be involved?
Can't see it. The interest in the group was always more SQ than the children. Most of the children have moved on into other things and only one is living local to the Fermanagh/ Cavan area.

The son still retains a heavy interest in the businesses and has made a number of inflammatory comments about the current directors as outlined in the articles above.
He really doesn't. He's more focused on QuinnBet. Does he think much of the Directors? No. But I know his interests lie elsewhere at the minute.

I doubt it, very much like his father I think he wants that business empire back that he feels he is entitled to.
We'll agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on November 10, 2019, 06:10:39 PM
I wonder how Belbridge Consultancy Ltd are actually doing??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 10, 2019, 06:44:55 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on November 10, 2019, 11:37:01 AM
The write up in today's Sunday World points it very likely it was Quinn. He never seemed convincing in his interviews.
In 2016 the Sunday World  had 'Dublin Jimmy' pegged as the main suspect in the orchestrated hate campaign against the US investor group. Was that well known at that time? Were they the only mainline media outlet to print the name?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on November 10, 2019, 06:48:54 PM
The Sunday World is a rag in many ways, but isn't far off the mark in relation to crime.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rodney trotter on November 10, 2019, 06:53:22 PM
I wouldn't generally buy the Sunday World, but heard the Journalist who done the article speaking on the Stand podcast with Dunphy, last .. She said she has been covering Dublin Jimmy for a few years.  Nicola Tallant is her name. She'd have info on her twitter page..
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 10, 2019, 08:27:36 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 10, 2019, 03:12:07 PM
Sunday world pointing finger at Quinns.
The Quinn story is like something out of the Plantation of Ulster .
The chieftain loses a bet and is kicked out of his house by an English soldier and the parties stop. There are loads of Irish poems about it. 

The other model is the play/film the Field where an American buys something he shouldn't have.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 08:36:38 PM
Quote from: seafoid on November 10, 2019, 08:27:36 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on November 10, 2019, 03:12:07 PM
Sunday world pointing finger at Quinns.
The Quinn story is like something out of the Plantation of Ulster .
The chieftain loses a bet and is kicked out of his house by an English soldier and the parties stop. There are loads of Irish poems about it. 

The other model is the play/film the Field where an American buys something he shouldn't have.

Who in the Quinn saga has bought something they shouldn't?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 10, 2019, 09:06:21 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 10, 2019, 06:48:54 PM
The Sunday World is a rag in many ways, but isn't far off the mark in relation to crime.

Yeh, sure they spent decades glorifying crime by giving their favourite gangsters nicknames. The same Paul Williams is still at large masquerading elsewhere as a serious journalist and crime expert.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 10, 2019, 09:52:26 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 10, 2019, 06:48:54 PM
The Sunday World is a rag in many ways, but isn't far off the mark in relation to crime.
I found that article and the journo Mick McCaffrey was actually named as author, that would take some guts to put your name to an article outing a guttersnipe like Dublin Jimmy in the midst of orchestrated terror campaign.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 10, 2019, 10:12:32 PM
(https://tfk.thefreekick.com/uploads/default/original/3X/2/7/27523a6f04d1af51c8f1ec912bd534b568eeae25.jpeg)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Smokin Joe on November 11, 2019, 06:29:47 AM
So The Sunday World, who normally know their stuff when it comes to crime reporting are suggesting that the paymaster has a son who goaded McGuinness "What are we paying you for?"

I can only imagine that the choice of wording used in that article was not accidental............
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 11, 2019, 07:42:47 AM
So far the  evidence presented are little more than Garda whispers. One such whisper is £20k being the fee paid for that prolonged campaign of intimidation, including kidnapping, torture and death threats. That seems a bit cheap?   Has Quinn Bet opened a book yet on the list of likely paymaster suspects? I'd hazard a guess that the Gardai will eventually state there is not enough evidence to prosecute anybody. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 11, 2019, 09:03:20 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 11, 2019, 07:42:47 AM
So far the  evidence presented are little more than Garda whispers. One such whisper is £20k being the fee paid for that prolonged campaign of intimidation, including kidnapping, torture and death threats. That seems a bit cheap?   Has Quinn Bet opened a book yet on the list of likely paymaster suspects? I'd hazard a guess that the Gardai will eventually state there is not enough evidence to prosecute anybody.

It was reported that is was 20k per attack/incident.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 10:18:26 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 10, 2019, 06:48:54 PM
The Sunday World is a rag in many ways, but isn't far off the mark in relation to crime.
https://www.independent.ie/business/media/obituary-gerry-mcguinness-36807919.html
"From the beginning, it was anti-establishment and broke important political, crime and social stories. Its success was also based on provocative and celebrity columnists"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on November 11, 2019, 10:21:39 AM
The odds are shortening all the time on the info coming out....the paymaster, the son, the thugs who carried out this dispicable act, and up to 70 other forms of violence and intimidation in recent years. The net is widening as we speak if laptops and phones were taken from Dublin Jimmys escape bolt hole.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 11, 2019, 11:37:41 AM
Sean Quinn now appears to have a lost any support he would have had in the wider community. What a fall from grace. To lose your business you spent years building is one think, but to have lost all credibility in wider society is something else altogether.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sensethetone on November 11, 2019, 11:38:51 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 11, 2019, 11:37:41 AM
Sean Quinn now appears to have a lost any support he would have had in the wider community. What a fall from grace. To lose your business you spent years building is one think, but to have lost all credibility in wider society is something else altogether.

Bit like Pablo in Narcos.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 11, 2019, 10:50:04 PM
The irish media are some spoofers. Lining up to be on TV to tell us all that they knew about "dublin jimmy" yet Google his now famous name and you'll barely find a mention of him (prior to this last few weeks). Likewise you'll find hardly anything about what's been going on in ballyconnel for years. Yet today these spoofers know everything and even question what gardai were doing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 11:30:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 11, 2019, 10:50:04 PM
The irish media are some spoofers. Lining up to be on TV to tell us all that they knew about "dublin jimmy" yet Google his now famous name and you'll barely find a mention of him (prior to this last few weeks). Likewise you'll find hardly anything about what's been going on in ballyconnel for years. Yet today these spoofers know everything and even question what gardai were doing.

He was named on the front page of the Sunday World over 5 years ago as the chief suspect. Libel laws and probably more importantly fear of reprisal would have forbid many from speaking out against such an unsavoury and dangerous character.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 08:54:22 AM
Quote from: sensethetone on November 11, 2019, 11:38:51 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 11, 2019, 11:37:41 AM
Sean Quinn now appears to have a lost any support he would have had in the wider community. What a fall from grace. To lose your business you spent years building is one think, but to have lost all credibility in wider society is something else altogether.

Bit like Pablo in Narcos.

There's definitely a Netflix series in this that's for sure.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hound on November 12, 2019, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Itchy on November 11, 2019, 10:50:04 PM
The irish media are some spoofers. Lining up to be on TV to tell us all that they knew about "dublin jimmy" yet Google his now famous name and you'll barely find a mention of him (prior to this last few weeks). Likewise you'll find hardly anything about what's been going on in ballyconnel for years. Yet today these spoofers know everything and even question what gardai were doing.
Would you be happy if the story was true that "Dublin Jimmy" left a treasure trove of information on his laptop, so that the actual paymaster may be identified, and hopefully arrested and jailed?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on November 12, 2019, 09:40:15 AM
Quote from: Hound on November 12, 2019, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Itchy on November 11, 2019, 10:50:04 PM
The irish media are some spoofers. Lining up to be on TV to tell us all that they knew about "dublin jimmy" yet Google his now famous name and you'll barely find a mention of him (prior to this last few weeks). Likewise you'll find hardly anything about what's been going on in ballyconnel for years. Yet today these spoofers know everything and even question what gardai were doing.
Would you be happy if the story was true that "Dublin Jimmy" left a treasure trove of information on his laptop, so that the actual paymaster may be identified, and hopefully arrested and jailed?

But if obvious the paymaster has a load of money which means he probably employed a lot of local people in the area so he's a good lad really!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 12, 2019, 09:43:01 AM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-jimmy-once-threatened-to-shoot-paymaster-38683633.html

Dublin Jimmy apparently earned over €1 million from the paymaster for the attacks on the 5 directors according to this article. Who could possibly afford those type of figures, most people will not earn that type of money over their lifetime to feed their families never mind afford paying it to hitmen to intimidate and physically damage other people. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 12, 2019, 09:46:37 AM
Doesn't everyone need €30k a month to live on? ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 12, 2019, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: Hound on November 12, 2019, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Itchy on November 11, 2019, 10:50:04 PM
The irish media are some spoofers. Lining up to be on TV to tell us all that they knew about "dublin jimmy" yet Google his now famous name and you'll barely find a mention of him (prior to this last few weeks). Likewise you'll find hardly anything about what's been going on in ballyconnel for years. Yet today these spoofers know everything and even question what gardai were doing.
Would you be happy if the story was true that "Dublin Jimmy" left a treasure trove of information on his laptop, so that the actual paymaster may be identified, and hopefully arrested and jailed?

Yes I would, however everyone is looking for a bogeyman. I don't believe there is this one "paymaster" as they like to call it. Time will tell, maybe I am wrong and if I am I will happily admit it. I hope the thugs involved get whats coming to them thats for sure.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 10:46:11 AM
Quote from: Itchy on November 11, 2019, 10:50:04 PM
The irish media are some spoofers. Lining up to be on TV to tell us all that they knew about "dublin jimmy" yet Google his now famous name and you'll barely find a mention of him (prior to this last few weeks). Likewise you'll find hardly anything about what's been going on in ballyconnel for years. Yet today these spoofers know everything and even question what gardai were doing.

Very good point.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 12, 2019, 11:57:32 AM
Speak of an Ass and he is sure to Pass

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-jimmy-once-threatened-to-shoot-paymaster-who-hired-him-to-carry-out-attacks-on-former-quinn-companies-38683633.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 12:19:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 12, 2019, 11:57:32 AM
Speak of an Ass and he is sure to Pass

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-jimmy-once-threatened-to-shoot-paymaster-who-hired-him-to-carry-out-attacks-on-former-quinn-companies-38683633.html

"... the financier..."  :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oliverkelly on November 12, 2019, 12:51:51 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 12:19:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 12, 2019, 11:57:32 AM
Speak of an Ass and he is sure to Pass

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-jimmy-once-threatened-to-shoot-paymaster-who-hired-him-to-carry-out-attacks-on-former-quinn-companies-38683633.html

"... the financier..."  :o

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/sean-quinn-in-terrifying-good-friday-death-threat-30409388.html

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 12, 2019, 12:59:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 12, 2019, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: Hound on November 12, 2019, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Itchy on November 11, 2019, 10:50:04 PM
The irish media are some spoofers. Lining up to be on TV to tell us all that they knew about "dublin jimmy" yet Google his now famous name and you'll barely find a mention of him (prior to this last few weeks). Likewise you'll find hardly anything about what's been going on in ballyconnel for years. Yet today these spoofers know everything and even question what gardai were doing.
Would you be happy if the story was true that "Dublin Jimmy" left a treasure trove of information on his laptop, so that the actual paymaster may be identified, and hopefully arrested and jailed?

Yes I would, however everyone is looking for a bogeyman. I don't believe there is this one "paymaster" as they like to call it. Time will tell, maybe I am wrong and if I am I will happily admit it. I hope the thugs involved get whats coming to them thats for sure.

Whatever about the thugs I think it's more important they find the people financing them and contracting out the attacks.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 12, 2019, 01:44:40 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 12, 2019, 12:59:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 12, 2019, 09:50:27 AM
Quote from: Hound on November 12, 2019, 09:19:00 AM
Quote from: Itchy on November 11, 2019, 10:50:04 PM
The irish media are some spoofers. Lining up to be on TV to tell us all that they knew about "dublin jimmy" yet Google his now famous name and you'll barely find a mention of him (prior to this last few weeks). Likewise you'll find hardly anything about what's been going on in ballyconnel for years. Yet today these spoofers know everything and even question what gardai were doing.
Would you be happy if the story was true that "Dublin Jimmy" left a treasure trove of information on his laptop, so that the actual paymaster may be identified, and hopefully arrested and jailed?

Yes I would, however everyone is looking for a bogeyman. I don't believe there is this one "paymaster" as they like to call it. Time will tell, maybe I am wrong and if I am I will happily admit it. I hope the thugs involved get whats coming to them thats for sure.

Whatever about the thugs I think it's more important they find the people financing them and contracting out the attacks.

It looks like they must be close you would think given all the inches in the papers. Surely just a matter of time. I'd be surprised if no-one's lifted before the weekend. Seems like they have all the evidence required going by the papers.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:53:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 12, 2019, 01:44:40 PM
It looks like they must be close you would think given all the inches in the papers. Surely just a matter of time. I'd be surprised if no-one's lifted before the weekend. Seems like they have all the evidence required going by the papers.

Indeed, it's all pointing in one direction. Getting the evidence from England might take a bit of time but I half expect in the meantime that certain parties might lift the phone and confess to the Gardai in the hope of avoiding jail for what they have done.  Maybe I'm expecting too much.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 12, 2019, 01:57:03 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:53:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 12, 2019, 01:44:40 PM
It looks like they must be close you would think given all the inches in the papers. Surely just a matter of time. I'd be surprised if no-one's lifted before the weekend. Seems like they have all the evidence required going by the papers.

Indeed, it's all pointing in one direction. Getting the evidence from England might take a bit of time but I half expect in the meantime that certain parties might lift the phone and confess to the Gardai in the hope of avoiding jail for what they have done.  Maybe I'm expecting too much.

In this legal world of technicalities, loopholes and the like? You are expecting way too much.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 12, 2019, 02:02:48 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:53:41 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 12, 2019, 01:44:40 PM
It looks like they must be close you would think given all the inches in the papers. Surely just a matter of time. I'd be surprised if no-one's lifted before the weekend. Seems like they have all the evidence required going by the papers.

Indeed, it's all pointing in one direction. Getting the evidence from England might take a bit of time but I half expect in the meantime that certain parties might lift the phone and confess to the Gardai in the hope of avoiding jail for what they have done.  Maybe I'm expecting too much.

That's if the papers are right, they seem to all be pointing in the one direction. Certainly from what I'm hearing the person they are pointing the finger at is also keen to see it progress as his name won't be cleared (If he's not involved) until they do. So I'm sure we'll hear soon one way or the other.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dec on November 12, 2019, 02:16:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 11, 2019, 10:50:04 PM
The irish media are some spoofers. Lining up to be on TV to tell us all that they knew about "dublin jimmy" yet Google his now famous name and you'll barely find a mention of him (prior to this last few weeks). Likewise you'll find hardly anything about what's been going on in ballyconnel for years. Yet today these spoofers know everything and even question what gardai were doing.

2004
http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/21th-october-2004/9/bbc-names-mr-big

2009
https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/13849880.waste-offenders-lose-pound300000-assets/

2010
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ira-bombing-suspect-dumped-illegal-waste-in-northern-ireland-zs2z5bjgw8j

2011
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-14493191

2013
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/car-stealing-gangs-running-97-2120184


2017
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/businessman-wants-garda-boss-osullivan-jailed-in-row-over-truck-35860812.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 12, 2019, 02:37:37 PM
Quote from: oliverkelly on November 12, 2019, 12:51:51 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 12:19:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 12, 2019, 11:57:32 AM
Speak of an Ass and he is sure to Pass

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-jimmy-once-threatened-to-shoot-paymaster-who-hired-him-to-carry-out-attacks-on-former-quinn-companies-38683633.html

"... the financier..."  :o

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/sean-quinn-in-terrifying-good-friday-death-threat-30409388.html

Putting those 2 articles back to back and you don't have to be Einstein to know who they are pointing at. At this stage if SQ is not involved he would be best to present himself to the authorities for questioning to clear his name because unfortunately for him he is already guilty in many peoples eyes by association.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 12, 2019, 03:02:22 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 12, 2019, 02:37:37 PM
Quote from: oliverkelly on November 12, 2019, 12:51:51 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 12:19:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 12, 2019, 11:57:32 AM
Speak of an Ass and he is sure to Pass

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-jimmy-once-threatened-to-shoot-paymaster-who-hired-him-to-carry-out-attacks-on-former-quinn-companies-38683633.html

"... the financier..."  :o

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/sean-quinn-in-terrifying-good-friday-death-threat-30409388.html

Putting those 2 articles back to back and you don't have to be Einstein to know who they are pointing at. At this stage if SQ is not involved he would be best to present himself to the authorities for questioning to clear his name because unfortunately for him he is already guilty in many peoples eyes by association.

He has spoken to the PSNI and the Guards voluntarily already. I don't think there's much else he can do unless they come knocking with a warrant. Which if the papers are to be believed should be any day now. Unless there's things being presented as fact in the papers that is more conjecture. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 12, 2019, 09:37:26 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on November 12, 2019, 02:37:37 PM
Quote from: oliverkelly on November 12, 2019, 12:51:51 PM
Quote from: five points on November 12, 2019, 12:19:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 12, 2019, 11:57:32 AM
Speak of an Ass and he is sure to Pass

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-jimmy-once-threatened-to-shoot-paymaster-who-hired-him-to-carry-out-attacks-on-former-quinn-companies-38683633.html

"... the financier..."  :o

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/sean-quinn-in-terrifying-good-friday-death-threat-30409388.html

Putting those 2 articles back to back and you don't have to be Einstein to know who they are pointing at. At this stage if SQ is not involved he would be best to present himself to the authorities for questioning to clear his name because unfortunately for him he is already guilty in many peoples eyes by association.
That sounded like the PSNI have their snitches. In all probably, paymaster S  has distanced himself from direct contact with the thugs and good evidence will be in short supply.
I'd say by now even the paymaster knows it's a lost cause and the current Quinn directors all know who he is with a 100% certainty.

Of course one cannot completely eliminate the Grassy Knoll theories, the  possibility that the thugs are freely risking their life and limb  out of a misplaced (but commendable)  loyalty to promote the cause of citizen Quinn or alternatively, a bogeyman with deep pockets has emerged from the creepy dark shadows of the borderlands.
Probably those theories are too bizzare  even by Grassy Knoll standards.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 13, 2019, 09:05:04 AM
If I was SQ I'd be sitting really uneasy this morning. By all accounts Dublin Jimmy thought he was safe in Derby and that no one knew where he was until they came knocking. The Garda and the PSNI appear to know a good bit more than SQ thinks they know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rodney trotter on November 13, 2019, 09:48:29 AM
A member of the paymasters family is said to have owned the house, where Dublin James was staying..
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 13, 2019, 10:14:02 AM
This paymaster thing is getting out of hand now....Lets just call him Zean Kuinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 13, 2019, 10:35:54 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 13, 2019, 09:05:04 AM
If I was SQ I'd be sitting really uneasy this morning. By all accounts Dublin Jimmy thought he was safe in Derby and that no one knew where he was until they came knocking. The Garda and the PSNI appear to know a good bit more than SQ thinks they know.

If he's been involved. If he's not he'll be quite keen for the Guards to move forward.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dire Ear on November 13, 2019, 12:12:43 PM
Any link with  Dublin Jimmy and the movement of people in lorries??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hound on November 13, 2019, 01:09:31 PM
Nicola Tallant of the Sunday World was on Dunphy's podcast (she's often on talking about the Kinahans and is a great listen).

Some of the main points she made on the podcast were:

-It's been long known that Cyril McGuinness / Dublin Jimmy was the orchestrator of the attacks on "Quinn" businesses
-He was in jail in Siberia for a time and claims he had to eat rats to survive. He lost most of his teeth during his incarceration!
-He was the person called "Boss" when the Lunney attackers made a phonecall during the attack
-There are rumours that he was tout for either the gardai or psni (as a possible explanation as to why it took so long for him to be lifted). She said she knows for a fact he wasn't a tout for the gardai and she said it would be highly highly unlikely he worked for the psni. He was provo/dissident to the core and wouldn't have jeopardised that.
-She has had it substantiated that the son of the paymaster recently admonished McGuinness in a pub that he wasn't doing enough "what are we paying you for?"
-The police have CCTV of a suspect in the Lunney attack buying bleach.
-A big part of the reason for the multiple raids, including the Derby raid, was to collect phones so they can triangulate movements
-She doubts there's much on any laptop recovered in Derby     
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 01:30:22 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2019, 01:09:31 PM
Nicola Tallant of the Sunday World was on Dunphy's podcast (she's often on talking about the Kinahans and is a great listen).

Some of the main points she made on the podcast were:

-It's been long known that Cyril McGuinness / Dublin Jimmy was the orchestrator of the attacks on "Quinn" businesses

Its long known yet the attacks have been going on for 5/6 years and no one has been arrested and the man that it is well known to be orchestrating is living his normal life south of the border in Cavan.

-He was in jail in Siberia for a time and claims he had to eat rats to survive. He lost most of his teeth during his incarceration!

cool story dude

-He was the person called "Boss" when the Lunney attackers made a phonecall during the attack

The great thing about talking about a dead man is that you cannot libel him. How could she possibly know that?

-There are rumours that he was tout for either the gardai or psni (as a possible explanation as to why it took so long for him to be lifted). She said she knows for a fact he wasn't a tout for the gardai and she said it would be highly highly unlikely he worked for the psni. He was provo/dissident to the core and wouldn't have jeopardised that.

I was wondering how long it would take the media to come out with this one, he worked for the Gardai but not the PSNI as the CIRA wouldnt like that but they'd be ok with the Gardai. Such a load of bollix. Did she really say something that stupid.

-She has had it substantiated that the son of the paymaster recently admonished McGuinness in a pub that he wasn't doing enough "what are we paying you for?"

Does anyone else think that the secretive paymaster had his son walk into a pub and "admonish" this dangerous thug in public. I dont know, this sounds like more crap to me.

-The police have CCTV of a suspect in the Lunney attack buying bleach.

Yes, thats been known for weeks in Cavan anyway. Bought in Mullahoran I believe. Yet I dont think bleach buying is a crime yet.

-A big part of the reason for the multiple raids, including the Derby raid, was to collect phones so they can triangulate movements

This might be true lol

-She doubts there's much on any laptop recovered in Derby     

How would she know either way


The bottom line is I personally wouldn't believe a single word that comes out of a Sunday World journalists mouth. There is a truth out there and there are no doubt bits of the truth in what we are hearing but these "journalists" have to make it sound like they have some inside track and know the whole truth and although they'd love to tell us all they simply cant for legal reasons.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 13, 2019, 01:36:41 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 01:30:22 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2019, 01:09:31 PM
Nicola Tallant of the Sunday World was on Dunphy's podcast (she's often on talking about the Kinahans and is a great listen).

Some of the main points she made on the podcast were:

-It's been long known that Cyril McGuinness / Dublin Jimmy was the orchestrator of the attacks on "Quinn" businesses

Its long known yet the attacks have been going on for 5/6 years and no one has been arrested and the man that it is well known to be orchestrating is living his normal life south of the border in Cavan.

-He was in jail in Siberia for a time and claims he had to eat rats to survive. He lost most of his teeth during his incarceration!

cool story dude

-He was the person called "Boss" when the Lunney attackers made a phonecall during the attack

The great thing about talking about a dead man is that you cannot libel him. How could she possibly know that?

-There are rumours that he was tout for either the gardai or psni (as a possible explanation as to why it took so long for him to be lifted). She said she knows for a fact he wasn't a tout for the gardai and she said it would be highly highly unlikely he worked for the psni. He was provo/dissident to the core and wouldn't have jeopardised that.

I was wondering how long it would take the media to come out with this one, he worked for the Gardai but not the PSNI as the CIRA wouldnt like that but they'd be ok with the Gardai. Such a load of bollix. Did she really say something that stupid.

-She has had it substantiated that the son of the paymaster recently admonished McGuinness in a pub that he wasn't doing enough "what are we paying you for?"

Does anyone else think that the secretive paymaster had his son walk into a pub and "admonish" this dangerous thug in public. I dont know, this sounds like more crap to me.

-The police have CCTV of a suspect in the Lunney attack buying bleach.

Yes, thats been known for weeks in Cavan anyway. Bought in Mullahoran I believe. Yet I dont think bleach buying is a crime yet.

-A big part of the reason for the multiple raids, including the Derby raid, was to collect phones so they can triangulate movements

This might be true lol

-She doubts there's much on any laptop recovered in Derby     

How would she know either way


The bottom line is I personally wouldn't believe a single word that comes out of a Sunday World journalists mouth. There is a truth out there and there are no doubt bits of the truth in what we are hearing but these "journalists" have to make it sound like they have some inside track and know the whole truth and although they'd love to tell us all they simply cant for legal reasons.

On the face of it, you don't want to look at things objectively.

All the signs seem to point to who is behind it, the victims are absolutely convinced who is behind, there is only one group with the inventive and resources to fund this but none of that seems to matter to you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 01:49:52 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 01:30:22 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2019, 01:09:31 PM


-She has had it substantiated that the son of the paymaster recently admonished McGuinness in a pub that he wasn't doing enough "what are we paying you for?"

Does anyone else think that the secretive paymaster had his son walk into a pub and "admonish" this dangerous thug in public. I dont know, this sounds like more crap to me.



The story as written is a lot different than that. It alleges that the son of the paymaster was drunk and got abusive towards McGuinness.

The character whom this is commonly believed to be has previous form in the drunk and disorderly department.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 13, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2019, 01:09:31 PM
Nicola Tallant of the Sunday World was on Dunphy's podcast (she's often on talking about the Kinahans and is a great listen).

Some of the main points she made on the podcast were:

-It's been long known that Cyril McGuinness / Dublin Jimmy was the orchestrator of the attacks on "Quinn" businesses
-He was in jail in Siberia for a time and claims he had to eat rats to survive. He lost most of his teeth during his incarceration!
-He was the person called "Boss" when the Lunney attackers made a phonecall during the attack
-There are rumours that he was tout for either the gardai or psni (as a possible explanation as to why it took so long for him to be lifted). She said she knows for a fact he wasn't a tout for the gardai and she said it would be highly highly unlikely he worked for the psni. He was provo/dissident to the core and wouldn't have jeopardised that.
-She has had it substantiated that the son of the paymaster recently admonished McGuinness in a pub that he wasn't doing enough "what are we paying you for?"
-The police have CCTV of a suspect in the Lunney attack buying bleach.
-A big part of the reason for the multiple raids, including the Derby raid, was to collect phones so they can triangulate movements
-She doubts there's much on any laptop recovered in Derby     

When I watched spotlight show the first thought in my head was some junior officer is going to be going through hours of footage. Can't believe someone would be so stupid as to do this though - Lunny is a very smart man, if he's even said they were gone for an hour that instantly narrows down the amount of places it could be either side of the border. I refuse to believe someone doing a crime like this could be so stupid?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on November 13, 2019, 03:41:30 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 13, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2019, 01:09:31 PM
Nicola Tallant of the Sunday World was on Dunphy's podcast (she's often on talking about the Kinahans and is a great listen).

Some of the main points she made on the podcast were:

-It's been long known that Cyril McGuinness / Dublin Jimmy was the orchestrator of the attacks on "Quinn" businesses
-He was in jail in Siberia for a time and claims he had to eat rats to survive. He lost most of his teeth during his incarceration!
-He was the person called "Boss" when the Lunney attackers made a phonecall during the attack
-There are rumours that he was tout for either the gardai or psni (as a possible explanation as to why it took so long for him to be lifted). She said she knows for a fact he wasn't a tout for the gardai and she said it would be highly highly unlikely he worked for the psni. He was provo/dissident to the core and wouldn't have jeopardised that.
-She has had it substantiated that the son of the paymaster recently admonished McGuinness in a pub that he wasn't doing enough "what are we paying you for?"
-The police have CCTV of a suspect in the Lunney attack buying bleach.
-A big part of the reason for the multiple raids, including the Derby raid, was to collect phones so they can triangulate movements
-She doubts there's much on any laptop recovered in Derby     

When I watched spotlight show the first thought in my head was some junior officer is going to be going through hours of footage. Can't believe someone would be so stupid as to do this though - Lunny is a very smart man, if he's even said they were gone for an hour that instantly narrows down the amount of places it could be either side of the border. I refuse to believe someone doing a crime like this could be so stupid?

Stupid enough to not bring the bleach in the first place?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on November 13, 2019, 03:54:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 01:30:22 PM


The bottom line is I personally wouldn't believe a single word that comes out of a Sunday World journalists mouth. There is a truth out there and there are no doubt bits of the truth in what we are hearing but these "journalists" have to make it sound like they have some inside track and know the whole truth and although they'd love to tell us all they simply cant for legal reasons.

Just to pick out a couple of your points without making the thread excessively long.

Its long known yet the attacks have been going on for 5/6 years and no one has been arrested and the man that it is well known to be orchestrating is living his normal life south of the border in Cavan.

Knowing something and then printing it is different from having sufficient evidence to prosecute.


I was wondering how long it would take the media to come out with this one, he worked for the Gardai but not the PSNI as the CIRA wouldnt like that but they'd be ok with the Gardai. Such a load of bollix. Did she really say something that stupid.

She actually said the opposite. She was refuting the rumour he was working for the Gardai.

Yes, thats been known for weeks in Cavan anyway. Bought in Mullahoran I believe. Yet I dont think bleach buying is a crime yet.
No-one is saying it is a crime but if the Gardai know one of the thugs bought bleach within a certain area and time-frame and they have vidoe of a known accomplice of Cyril doing just that then it is circumstantial eviddence to point them in the correct direction.


How would she know either way
Perhaps an educated guess. Based on the fact the Gardai have been unable to charge him for lack of evidence it would suggest he doesnt leave much incriminating information written down anywhere
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 13, 2019, 04:00:58 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 13, 2019, 03:41:30 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 13, 2019, 02:26:45 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2019, 01:09:31 PM
Nicola Tallant of the Sunday World was on Dunphy's podcast (she's often on talking about the Kinahans and is a great listen).

Some of the main points she made on the podcast were:

-It's been long known that Cyril McGuinness / Dublin Jimmy was the orchestrator of the attacks on "Quinn" businesses
-He was in jail in Siberia for a time and claims he had to eat rats to survive. He lost most of his teeth during his incarceration!
-He was the person called "Boss" when the Lunney attackers made a phonecall during the attack
-There are rumours that he was tout for either the gardai or psni (as a possible explanation as to why it took so long for him to be lifted). She said she knows for a fact he wasn't a tout for the gardai and she said it would be highly highly unlikely he worked for the psni. He was provo/dissident to the core and wouldn't have jeopardised that.
-She has had it substantiated that the son of the paymaster recently admonished McGuinness in a pub that he wasn't doing enough "what are we paying you for?"
-The police have CCTV of a suspect in the Lunney attack buying bleach.
-A big part of the reason for the multiple raids, including the Derby raid, was to collect phones so they can triangulate movements
-She doubts there's much on any laptop recovered in Derby     

When I watched spotlight show the first thought in my head was some junior officer is going to be going through hours of footage. Can't believe someone would be so stupid as to do this though - Lunny is a very smart man, if he's even said they were gone for an hour that instantly narrows down the amount of places it could be either side of the border. I refuse to believe someone doing a crime like this could be so stupid?

Stupid enough to not bring the bleach in the first place?

It appears you may have won this duel  :-X
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mouview on November 13, 2019, 04:27:37 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 13, 2019, 10:14:02 AM
This paymaster thing is getting out of hand now....Lets just call him Zean Kuinn.

Seyser Koze?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Keyser soze on November 13, 2019, 04:35:01 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 13, 2019, 04:27:37 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 13, 2019, 10:14:02 AM
This paymaster thing is getting out of hand now....Lets just call him Zean Kuinn.

Seyser Koze?

You looking a hidin son??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Armamike on November 13, 2019, 04:36:27 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 13, 2019, 10:14:02 AM
This paymaster thing is getting out of hand now....Lets just call him Zean Kuinn.

Or Keyzer Soze.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 13, 2019, 04:37:09 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on November 13, 2019, 04:35:01 PM
Quote from: mouview on November 13, 2019, 04:27:37 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 13, 2019, 10:14:02 AM
This paymaster thing is getting out of hand now....Lets just call him Zean Kuinn.

Seyser Koze?

You looking a hidin son??

;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on November 13, 2019, 04:55:58 PM
If there was a march tomorrow for Aul Quinn would you see the likes of Mickey Harte, Fr. Brian Trendy, Colm O'Rourke et al attend?

Lots of rumour and nudge nudge wink wink going on but they are pointing in the one direction - if not the tree itself then certainly the fruit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 04:56:33 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 13, 2019, 03:54:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 01:30:22 PM


The bottom line is I personally wouldn't believe a single word that comes out of a Sunday World journalists mouth. There is a truth out there and there are no doubt bits of the truth in what we are hearing but these "journalists" have to make it sound like they have some inside track and know the whole truth and although they'd love to tell us all they simply cant for legal reasons.

Just to pick out a couple of your points without making the thread excessively long.

Its long known yet the attacks have been going on for 5/6 years and no one has been arrested and the man that it is well known to be orchestrating is living his normal life south of the border in Cavan.

Knowing something and then printing it is different from having sufficient evidence to prosecute.


I was wondering how long it would take the media to come out with this one, he worked for the Gardai but not the PSNI as the CIRA wouldnt like that but they'd be ok with the Gardai. Such a load of bollix. Did she really say something that stupid.

She actually said the opposite. She was refuting the rumour he was working for the Gardai.

Yes, thats been known for weeks in Cavan anyway. Bought in Mullahoran I believe. Yet I dont think bleach buying is a crime yet.
No-one is saying it is a crime but if the Gardai know one of the thugs bought bleach within a certain area and time-frame and they have vidoe of a known accomplice of Cyril doing just that then it is circumstantial eviddence to point them in the correct direction.


How would she know either way
Perhaps an educated guess. Based on the fact the Gardai have been unable to charge him for lack of evidence it would suggest he doesnt leave much incriminating information written down anywhere

An educated guess I am ok with, as long as it is called out as being an educated guess and not being called out as being fact creating the illusion that this journalist has been going around the Cavan/Fermanagh border undercover for 6 years. All any of us can do is an educated guess.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 05:03:31 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on November 13, 2019, 04:55:58 PM
If there was a march tomorrow for Aul Quinn would you see the likes of Mickey Harte, Fr. Brian Trendy, Colm O'Rourke et al attend?

No. John Bosco O'Hagan's story suggests why.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/10/28/news/john-bosco-o-hagan-i-wish-i-had-never-tried-to-help-sean-quinn-1748052/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hound on November 13, 2019, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 13, 2019, 03:54:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 01:30:22 PM


The bottom line is I personally wouldn't believe a single word that comes out of a Sunday World journalists mouth. There is a truth out there and there are no doubt bits of the truth in what we are hearing but these "journalists" have to make it sound like they have some inside track and know the whole truth and although they'd love to tell us all they simply cant for legal reasons.

Just to pick out a couple of your points without making the thread excessively long.

Its long known yet the attacks have been going on for 5/6 years and no one has been arrested and the man that it is well known to be orchestrating is living his normal life south of the border in Cavan.

Knowing something and then printing it is different from having sufficient evidence to prosecute.


I was wondering how long it would take the media to come out with this one, he worked for the Gardai but not the PSNI as the CIRA wouldnt like that but they'd be ok with the Gardai. Such a load of bollix. Did she really say something that stupid.

She actually said the opposite. She was refuting the rumour he was working for the Gardai.

Yes, thats been known for weeks in Cavan anyway. Bought in Mullahoran I believe. Yet I dont think bleach buying is a crime yet.
No-one is saying it is a crime but if the Gardai know one of the thugs bought bleach within a certain area and time-frame and they have vidoe of a known accomplice of Cyril doing just that then it is circumstantial eviddence to point them in the correct direction.


How would she know either way
Perhaps an educated guess. Based on the fact the Gardai have been unable to charge him for lack of evidence it would suggest he doesnt leave much incriminating information written down anywhere
Cheers Leo. The last one she didn't claim to know. It was her guess because she doesn't think McGuinness was much of a man for laptops!

A lot of her information comes from the Gardai I believe.

Interesting that itchy thinks that someone with dissident links seen on cctv buying bleach around the time and place of the Lunney torture isn't anything to worry about! Buying bleach may not be a crime, but it depends what you do with it!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 11:24:54 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2019, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 13, 2019, 03:54:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 01:30:22 PM


The bottom line is I personally wouldn't believe a single word that comes out of a Sunday World journalists mouth. There is a truth out there and there are no doubt bits of the truth in what we are hearing but these "journalists" have to make it sound like they have some inside track and know the whole truth and although they'd love to tell us all they simply cant for legal reasons.

Just to pick out a couple of your points without making the thread excessively long.

Its long known yet the attacks have been going on for 5/6 years and no one has been arrested and the man that it is well known to be orchestrating is living his normal life south of the border in Cavan.

Knowing something and then printing it is different from having sufficient evidence to prosecute.


I was wondering how long it would take the media to come out with this one, he worked for the Gardai but not the PSNI as the CIRA wouldnt like that but they'd be ok with the Gardai. Such a load of bollix. Did she really say something that stupid.

She actually said the opposite. She was refuting the rumour he was working for the Gardai.

Yes, thats been known for weeks in Cavan anyway. Bought in Mullahoran I believe. Yet I dont think bleach buying is a crime yet.
No-one is saying it is a crime but if the Gardai know one of the thugs bought bleach within a certain area and time-frame and they have vidoe of a known accomplice of Cyril doing just that then it is circumstantial eviddence to point them in the correct direction.


How would she know either way
Perhaps an educated guess. Based on the fact the Gardai have been unable to charge him for lack of evidence it would suggest he doesnt leave much incriminating information written down anywhere
Cheers Leo. The last one she didn't claim to know. It was her guess because she doesn't think McGuinness was much of a man for laptops!

A lot of her information comes from the Gardai I believe.

Interesting that itchy thinks that someone with dissident links seen on cctv buying bleach around the time and place of the Lunney torture isn't anything to worry about! Buying bleach may not be a crime, but it depends what you do with it!!


Another bluffer talking shite . Just point out where I said that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on November 14, 2019, 08:03:12 AM
Two men and a woman arrested.

Fill yer boots with speculation..........
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cavan19 on November 14, 2019, 08:41:30 AM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on November 14, 2019, 08:03:12 AM
Two men and a woman arrested.

Fill yer boots with speculation..........

I don't think it is the big fish yet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2019, 10:16:51 AM
Quote from: five points on November 13, 2019, 05:03:31 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on November 13, 2019, 04:55:58 PM
If there was a march tomorrow for Aul Quinn would you see the likes of Mickey Harte, Fr. Brian Trendy, Colm O'Rourke et al attend?

No. John Bosco O'Hagan's story suggests why.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/10/28/news/john-bosco-o-hagan-i-wish-i-had-never-tried-to-help-sean-quinn-1748052/
A very interesting read
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Aaron Boone on November 14, 2019, 10:23:00 AM
Just shows what the cops can do once they put the resources into it. The kidnap of Lunney was the tipping-point and the cops were forced to act.

It'd remind you of the Kinahan weigh-in shooting at the airport hotel in 2016, it was too public and criminals believing they'd be untouchable.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 14, 2019, 10:34:13 AM
What a pity they cant be as pro active before the excreta hits the extractor?
It seems to be a case of  an "acceptable level of criminality " but dont overdo it or we'll clamp down.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 14, 2019, 10:45:02 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 14, 2019, 10:34:13 AM
What a pity they cant be as pro active before the excreta hits the extractor?
It seems to be a case of  an "acceptable level of criminality " but dont overdo it or we'll clamp down.

Cross Border investigations have always been and will be like this. Sometimes it's nothing to do with the criminals, sometimes the PSNI and the Guards just don't like each other. Like anything in life.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hound on November 14, 2019, 01:25:06 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 11:24:54 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 13, 2019, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 13, 2019, 03:54:37 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 13, 2019, 01:30:22 PM


The bottom line is I personally wouldn't believe a single word that comes out of a Sunday World journalists mouth. There is a truth out there and there are no doubt bits of the truth in what we are hearing but these "journalists" have to make it sound like they have some inside track and know the whole truth and although they'd love to tell us all they simply cant for legal reasons.

Just to pick out a couple of your points without making the thread excessively long.

Its long known yet the attacks have been going on for 5/6 years and no one has been arrested and the man that it is well known to be orchestrating is living his normal life south of the border in Cavan.

Knowing something and then printing it is different from having sufficient evidence to prosecute.


I was wondering how long it would take the media to come out with this one, he worked for the Gardai but not the PSNI as the CIRA wouldnt like that but they'd be ok with the Gardai. Such a load of bollix. Did she really say something that stupid.

She actually said the opposite. She was refuting the rumour he was working for the Gardai.

Yes, thats been known for weeks in Cavan anyway. Bought in Mullahoran I believe. Yet I dont think bleach buying is a crime yet.
No-one is saying it is a crime but if the Gardai know one of the thugs bought bleach within a certain area and time-frame and they have vidoe of a known accomplice of Cyril doing just that then it is circumstantial eviddence to point them in the correct direction.


How would she know either way
Perhaps an educated guess. Based on the fact the Gardai have been unable to charge him for lack of evidence it would suggest he doesnt leave much incriminating information written down anywhere
Cheers Leo. The last one she didn't claim to know. It was her guess because she doesn't think McGuinness was much of a man for laptops!

A lot of her information comes from the Gardai I believe.

Interesting that itchy thinks that someone with dissident links seen on cctv buying bleach around the time and place of the Lunney torture isn't anything to worry about! Buying bleach may not be a crime, but it depends what you do with it!!


Another bluffer talking shite . Just point out where I said that.

Ah here, I didn't say you said anything!! I implied what you were thinking based on your posts.

In response to:

The police have CCTV of a suspect in the Lunney attack buying bleach.

You replied that "I dont think bleach buying is a crime yet."  ;D

You brushing this off with the above comment led me to believe that you thought this was nothing to worry about it. Maybe I was wrong. So what was the purpose of that comment?

Nobody ever said buying bleach was a crime! But someone with dissident links seen on cctv buying bleach around the time and place of the Lunney torture is quite important!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on November 15, 2019, 10:04:58 AM
The Gardai got the finger out in this case presumably because the company put pressure on them.
Nobody cares about drugs deaths in working class areas.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rodney trotter on November 15, 2019, 01:55:42 PM
There was  21 drug raids yesterday, across 8 different Counties by the Gardai. So that's a silly statement above.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 17, 2019, 10:05:23 AM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/protect-me-from-this-priest-sean-quinns-plea-to-vatican-after-kevin-lunney-homily-38699245.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Geoff Tipps on November 17, 2019, 10:34:30 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2019, 10:05:23 AM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/protect-me-from-this-priest-sean-quinns-plea-to-vatican-after-kevin-lunney-homily-38699245.html

Quinn channeling Henry II  ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 17, 2019, 05:54:44 PM
Interesting article in the times.

Save
It is the dead of night in the wilds of Co Fermanagh, and a man who admits to being part of the long-running campaign of sabotage against companies once owned by the former billionaire Seán Quinn is reflecting on the predicament he now faces.

"We were used to do their dirty work. Do I regret getting involved? Yes, I do. It was never about money. No one was paid," he says. "We were told it was all to get the companies back for Seán Quinn and his family. Around these parts, you stand by your neighbours and you don't steal their property. We stood by Quinn."

He is middle-aged, of medium height, and his only distinguishing feature is a strong border accent. Thoroughly immersed in the culture of insubordination that exists in border communities, we will give him the pseudonym Diesel.

Over the course of two interviews with The Sunday Times last week, the man explains why people along the Cavan-Fermanagh border involved themselves in a violent campaign that began after the banks seized control of Quinn's business empire in 2011. He says he knows nothing of a shadowy paymaster, but claims the attacks were directed by a small circle of people, some of whom are part of the staff at Quinn Industrial Holdings (QIH).

Why is he talking now? He suggests it is because the Dublin-based media do not understand what is going on, but have become fixated on a narrative about one paymaster. "There's a lot more to this story than meets the eye, and the dogs in the street all know what's going on and who was behind it," he says.


When Quinn lost control of his business empire, Anglo Irish Bank appointed Kieran Wallace of KPMG as a receiver to oversee the sale of company assets. Wallace in turn appointed Paul O'Brien to manage the businesses until they could be sold.

Attacks started almost immediately and were attributed to locals supposedly spontaneously "outraged" at the treatment of Quinn and his family by Anglo. The first act of violence involved crashing a dumper truck into the head offices of the Quinn Group, and it soon escalated. Electricity poles that supplied energy to Quinn's glass bottle factory were damaged or cut down at night, while isolated power sub-stations were set ablaze.

By his own admission, Diesel took part in various attacks that cost the company hundreds of thousands of euros, and he acknowledges he could face a significant prison sentence if arrested, charged and convicted.

"I don't really know Seán Quinn — I met him twice — but around these parts people don't take what doesn't belong to them," he says. "I was asked, would I help? And I did. So did everyone else involved. It was all to get the companies back for Seán Quinn and his children."

During his interviews, Diesel gives vivid accounts of how he would meet accomplices at remote cattle sheds and farms before setting off across fields to vandalise or cut down electricity poles. This was strategic, as they carried power to Quinn's factories and would make potential buyers wary.

The saboteurs would throw metal chains from the ground at overhead wires to cause them to short-circuit. This only temporarily stopped production at the factories, however, so they were asked to begin cutting down electricity poles using chainsaws.

"We were told which poles to cut down. He [a named person] told us to cut right through the stay of the pole, or cut them down the middle, halfway through. There were no phones used to organise this. He would call to the house to arrange things," says Diesel.

The organisers seemed to have access to information on what electricity cables to target.

For every attack which took place, five more were aborted. On one night, his group ventured out in the darkness to attack electricity poles on farmland near Kinawley. "We went out to cut poles and one of the men directing it shouted 'stop', because they supplied electricity to local dairy farms. The local farmers wouldn't have been able to milk the cows. It was called off," he says.

Diesel and the other men involved were careful not to get caught. They used a range of different chainsaws after they were told the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) had begun spraying an invisible chemical marker on poles, which tagged any blade that came into contact with them.

Some acts of intimidation involved physical attacks on the factories themselves, using heavy goods vehicles to crash into buildings. As before, those involved were instructed by the same people who had information on how to avoid detection. The attackers were supplied with the keys of company vehicles and told they were unlikely to be caught on CCTV.

Three days before Christmas 2011, Diesel and his accomplices were told to use a rigid lorry to smash into the headquarters of the Quinn Group. The staff canteen had to be demolished afterwards, such was the damage they caused.

"The keys to the lorry used in the attack were left in the dash. There were people on watchout. We rammed the lorry into the canteen and crashed it. Our instructions were to drive Paul O'Brien out of the company and get it back for Seán Quinn," says Diesel, who suggested that the keys to the vehicle may have been removed from a company safe box earlier.

Running parallel to this were campaigns on Facebook by Concerned Irish Citizens (CIC), which condemned the actions of the banks. Public meetings and protests were also organised to criticise the banks, sometimes attended by those involved in the sabotage.

Diesel is careful not to identify others who helped carry out attacks but insists none of his group was involved in torching O'Brien's car outside his home in Co Meath, or responsible for sending bullets and funeral wreaths to business people interested in buying the company.

The attacks were usually organised by word of mouth. Planning meetings were held in a farmhouse owned by one of the people directing the sabotage, who occasionally participated in the raids themselves. These included the arson attack that caused extensive damage to an isolated electricity sub-station near a wind farm on Slieve Rushen near Derrylin, which Diesel helped set alight in November 2012.

"We met behind the sheds at his farmhouse that night and set off across the fields. There was a lot of talk beforehand. One of their wives was there. The keys were supplied to us so we could get past the rail [outside fence] around the station and then get inside," he says.

"We used a quad to transport the petrol across the fields. When we got inside the station, he [a named person] used these big spanners to take the bolts off the electrical equipment. The petrol was poured into it and then set on fire. When she went up, we all went back to his house. It caused huge damage."

The purpose of the first series of attacks, between 2011 and late 2014, was to prevent Wallace from selling off Quinn's assets to third parties. There was a temporary lull in 2015 when QIH bought some of Quinn's cement and building materials factories for €90m with the backing of the American investors Brigade Capital, Contrarian Capital and Silver Point Capital, but the attacks soon started again.

Although QIH hired Quinn as a consultant to help run the business, the business was targeted four days after its founder's return in January 2015. On that occasion, a lorry parked outside its head office was set ablaze.

This attack was carried out in an attempt to confuse the gardai and PSNI about the group's motives for the earlier incidents.

The attacks against Quinn's other companies near Derrylin continued, though not at the same intensity. Security staff at the wind farm on Slieve Rushen were threatened by masked men, while boulders were used to block the mountainous road leading to it. The road was used by engineers who serviced the turbines. Many of these incidents were allegedly carried out by people who were QIH staff.

By late 2015, the relationship between the local people who carried out the attacks and those who secretly directed them soured when it became known that Quinn would not be taking back control of QIH. The businessman had become embroiled in a bitter row with QIH and subsequently left in May 2016, saying he had been given assurances he would be allowed to run the business but promises had been broken.

"The people who got us involved at the start continued working in QIH after Quinn left. They think no one knows about their involvement in the attacks. They think no one will say anything in case they incriminate themselves," says Diesel, who suggests this is among the reasons why the attacks on QIH have recommenced.

The second tranche of attacks, focusing not just on QIH but its board of directors, commenced before Quinn's departure and have continued since. He has repeatedly condemned all attacks on the business and its staff. Some of these attacks were carried out by Diesel and his accomplices, who sabotaged machinery and put signs up warning local people about QIH and its directors. The signs describe the board members as "money-grabbing traitors".

Diesel says he had no involvement in the more serious attacks on the company's executives, or the kidnapping of Kevin Lunney, the QIH chief executive, from outside his home in Fermanagh. If he does know who organised the abduction, he is not saying. He claims most local people knew Cyril McGuinness, one of the criminals suspected of involvement in the abduction, to see around the area, but would have been wary of him. McGuinness, 54, died of a suspected heart attack during a police raid 10 days ago at a house in Buxton, Derbyshire.

"Most of the attacks were organised by certain people who used us to do their dirty work," Diesel concludes.

"They stayed in QIH after Quinn left. They are rotten to the core. We were used by these selfish people who now think they can walk away — but they are mistaken. This has a way to go yet."


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/why-i-attacked-sean-quinn-s-former-companies-ksfnh73kf
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 17, 2019, 07:16:39 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on November 17, 2019, 10:34:30 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2019, 10:05:23 AM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/protect-me-from-this-priest-sean-quinns-plea-to-vatican-after-kevin-lunney-homily-38699245.html

Quinn channeling Henry II  ;D

;D
I hope Fr Oliver fares out better than troublesome Thomas Becket
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 17, 2019, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 17, 2019, 05:54:44 PM
Interesting article in the times.

Save
It is the dead of night in the wilds of Co Fermanagh, and a man who admits to being part of the long-running campaign of sabotage against companies once owned by the former billionaire Seán Quinn is reflecting on the predicament he now faces.

"We were used to do their dirty work. Do I regret getting involved? Yes, I do. It was never about money. No one was paid," he says. "We were told it was all to get the companies back for Seán Quinn and his family. Around these parts, you stand by your neighbours and you don't steal their property. We stood by Quinn."

He is middle-aged, of medium height, and his only distinguishing feature is a strong border accent. Thoroughly immersed in the culture of insubordination that exists in border communities, we will give him the pseudonym Diesel.

Over the course of two interviews with The Sunday Times last week, the man explains why people along the Cavan-Fermanagh border involved themselves in a violent campaign that began after the banks seized control of Quinn's business empire in 2011. He says he knows nothing of a shadowy paymaster, but claims the attacks were directed by a small circle of people, some of whom are part of the staff at Quinn Industrial Holdings (QIH).

Why is he talking now? He suggests it is because the Dublin-based media do not understand what is going on, but have become fixated on a narrative about one paymaster. "There's a lot more to this story than meets the eye, and the dogs in the street all know what's going on and who was behind it," he says.


When Quinn lost control of his business empire, Anglo Irish Bank appointed Kieran Wallace of KPMG as a receiver to oversee the sale of company assets. Wallace in turn appointed Paul O'Brien to manage the businesses until they could be sold.

Attacks started almost immediately and were attributed to locals supposedly spontaneously "outraged" at the treatment of Quinn and his family by Anglo. The first act of violence involved crashing a dumper truck into the head offices of the Quinn Group, and it soon escalated. Electricity poles that supplied energy to Quinn's glass bottle factory were damaged or cut down at night, while isolated power sub-stations were set ablaze.

By his own admission, Diesel took part in various attacks that cost the company hundreds of thousands of euros, and he acknowledges he could face a significant prison sentence if arrested, charged and convicted.

"I don't really know Seán Quinn — I met him twice — but around these parts people don't take what doesn't belong to them," he says. "I was asked, would I help? And I did. So did everyone else involved. It was all to get the companies back for Seán Quinn and his children."

During his interviews, Diesel gives vivid accounts of how he would meet accomplices at remote cattle sheds and farms before setting off across fields to vandalise or cut down electricity poles. This was strategic, as they carried power to Quinn's factories and would make potential buyers wary.

The saboteurs would throw metal chains from the ground at overhead wires to cause them to short-circuit. This only temporarily stopped production at the factories, however, so they were asked to begin cutting down electricity poles using chainsaws.

"We were told which poles to cut down. He [a named person] told us to cut right through the stay of the pole, or cut them down the middle, halfway through. There were no phones used to organise this. He would call to the house to arrange things," says Diesel.

The organisers seemed to have access to information on what electricity cables to target.

For every attack which took place, five more were aborted. On one night, his group ventured out in the darkness to attack electricity poles on farmland near Kinawley. "We went out to cut poles and one of the men directing it shouted 'stop', because they supplied electricity to local dairy farms. The local farmers wouldn't have been able to milk the cows. It was called off," he says.

Diesel and the other men involved were careful not to get caught. They used a range of different chainsaws after they were told the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) had begun spraying an invisible chemical marker on poles, which tagged any blade that came into contact with them.

Some acts of intimidation involved physical attacks on the factories themselves, using heavy goods vehicles to crash into buildings. As before, those involved were instructed by the same people who had information on how to avoid detection. The attackers were supplied with the keys of company vehicles and told they were unlikely to be caught on CCTV.

Three days before Christmas 2011, Diesel and his accomplices were told to use a rigid lorry to smash into the headquarters of the Quinn Group. The staff canteen had to be demolished afterwards, such was the damage they caused.

"The keys to the lorry used in the attack were left in the dash. There were people on watchout. We rammed the lorry into the canteen and crashed it. Our instructions were to drive Paul O'Brien out of the company and get it back for Seán Quinn," says Diesel, who suggested that the keys to the vehicle may have been removed from a company safe box earlier.

Running parallel to this were campaigns on Facebook by Concerned Irish Citizens (CIC), which condemned the actions of the banks. Public meetings and protests were also organised to criticise the banks, sometimes attended by those involved in the sabotage.

Diesel is careful not to identify others who helped carry out attacks but insists none of his group was involved in torching O'Brien's car outside his home in Co Meath, or responsible for sending bullets and funeral wreaths to business people interested in buying the company.

The attacks were usually organised by word of mouth. Planning meetings were held in a farmhouse owned by one of the people directing the sabotage, who occasionally participated in the raids themselves. These included the arson attack that caused extensive damage to an isolated electricity sub-station near a wind farm on Slieve Rushen near Derrylin, which Diesel helped set alight in November 2012.

"We met behind the sheds at his farmhouse that night and set off across the fields. There was a lot of talk beforehand. One of their wives was there. The keys were supplied to us so we could get past the rail [outside fence] around the station and then get inside," he says.

"We used a quad to transport the petrol across the fields. When we got inside the station, he [a named person] used these big spanners to take the bolts off the electrical equipment. The petrol was poured into it and then set on fire. When she went up, we all went back to his house. It caused huge damage."

The purpose of the first series of attacks, between 2011 and late 2014, was to prevent Wallace from selling off Quinn's assets to third parties. There was a temporary lull in 2015 when QIH bought some of Quinn's cement and building materials factories for €90m with the backing of the American investors Brigade Capital, Contrarian Capital and Silver Point Capital, but the attacks soon started again.

Although QIH hired Quinn as a consultant to help run the business, the business was targeted four days after its founder's return in January 2015. On that occasion, a lorry parked outside its head office was set ablaze.

This attack was carried out in an attempt to confuse the gardai and PSNI about the group's motives for the earlier incidents.

The attacks against Quinn's other companies near Derrylin continued, though not at the same intensity. Security staff at the wind farm on Slieve Rushen were threatened by masked men, while boulders were used to block the mountainous road leading to it. The road was used by engineers who serviced the turbines. Many of these incidents were allegedly carried out by people who were QIH staff.

By late 2015, the relationship between the local people who carried out the attacks and those who secretly directed them soured when it became known that Quinn would not be taking back control of QIH. The businessman had become embroiled in a bitter row with QIH and subsequently left in May 2016, saying he had been given assurances he would be allowed to run the business but promises had been broken.

"The people who got us involved at the start continued working in QIH after Quinn left. They think no one knows about their involvement in the attacks. They think no one will say anything in case they incriminate themselves," says Diesel, who suggests this is among the reasons why the attacks on QIH have recommenced.

The second tranche of attacks, focusing not just on QIH but its board of directors, commenced before Quinn's departure and have continued since. He has repeatedly condemned all attacks on the business and its staff. Some of these attacks were carried out by Diesel and his accomplices, who sabotaged machinery and put signs up warning local people about QIH and its directors. The signs describe the board members as "money-grabbing traitors".

Diesel says he had no involvement in the more serious attacks on the company's executives, or the kidnapping of Kevin Lunney, the QIH chief executive, from outside his home in Fermanagh. If he does know who organised the abduction, he is not saying. He claims most local people knew Cyril McGuinness, one of the criminals suspected of involvement in the abduction, to see around the area, but would have been wary of him. McGuinness, 54, died of a suspected heart attack during a police raid 10 days ago at a house in Buxton, Derbyshire.

"Most of the attacks were organised by certain people who used us to do their dirty work," Diesel concludes.

"They stayed in QIH after Quinn left. They are rotten to the core. We were used by these selfish people who now think they can walk away — but they are mistaken. This has a way to go yet."


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/why-i-attacked-sean-quinn-s-former-companies-ksfnh73kf

It's a little bit convenient though? He was only involved in harmless attacks to get Quinn his business back, it had been organised by people other than SQ and he had nothing to do with the escalated attempts to force the company back into Quinn's hands.

Reads like there was a meeting at the Quinn family household and it was decided one of their stooges would deliver this story in response to the QIH directors all but pointing the finger at Quinn. It's an article with an unnamed person pointing the finger at unnamed people but clearing SQ.

My question is why is the guy coming forward? What's his gain from it?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 17, 2019, 07:46:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 17, 2019, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 17, 2019, 05:54:44 PM
Interesting article in the times.

Save
It is the dead of night in the wilds of Co Fermanagh, and a man who admits to being part of the long-running campaign of sabotage against companies once owned by the former billionaire Seán Quinn is reflecting on the predicament he now faces.

"We were used to do their dirty work. Do I regret getting involved? Yes, I do. It was never about money. No one was paid," he says. "We were told it was all to get the companies back for Seán Quinn and his family. Around these parts, you stand by your neighbours and you don't steal their property. We stood by Quinn."

He is middle-aged, of medium height, and his only distinguishing feature is a strong border accent. Thoroughly immersed in the culture of insubordination that exists in border communities, we will give him the pseudonym Diesel.

Over the course of two interviews with The Sunday Times last week, the man explains why people along the Cavan-Fermanagh border involved themselves in a violent campaign that began after the banks seized control of Quinn's business empire in 2011. He says he knows nothing of a shadowy paymaster, but claims the attacks were directed by a small circle of people, some of whom are part of the staff at Quinn Industrial Holdings (QIH).

Why is he talking now? He suggests it is because the Dublin-based media do not understand what is going on, but have become fixated on a narrative about one paymaster. "There's a lot more to this story than meets the eye, and the dogs in the street all know what's going on and who was behind it," he says.


When Quinn lost control of his business empire, Anglo Irish Bank appointed Kieran Wallace of KPMG as a receiver to oversee the sale of company assets. Wallace in turn appointed Paul O'Brien to manage the businesses until they could be sold.

Attacks started almost immediately and were attributed to locals supposedly spontaneously "outraged" at the treatment of Quinn and his family by Anglo. The first act of violence involved crashing a dumper truck into the head offices of the Quinn Group, and it soon escalated. Electricity poles that supplied energy to Quinn's glass bottle factory were damaged or cut down at night, while isolated power sub-stations were set ablaze.

By his own admission, Diesel took part in various attacks that cost the company hundreds of thousands of euros, and he acknowledges he could face a significant prison sentence if arrested, charged and convicted.

"I don't really know Seán Quinn — I met him twice — but around these parts people don't take what doesn't belong to them," he says. "I was asked, would I help? And I did. So did everyone else involved. It was all to get the companies back for Seán Quinn and his children."

During his interviews, Diesel gives vivid accounts of how he would meet accomplices at remote cattle sheds and farms before setting off across fields to vandalise or cut down electricity poles. This was strategic, as they carried power to Quinn's factories and would make potential buyers wary.

The saboteurs would throw metal chains from the ground at overhead wires to cause them to short-circuit. This only temporarily stopped production at the factories, however, so they were asked to begin cutting down electricity poles using chainsaws.

"We were told which poles to cut down. He [a named person] told us to cut right through the stay of the pole, or cut them down the middle, halfway through. There were no phones used to organise this. He would call to the house to arrange things," says Diesel.

The organisers seemed to have access to information on what electricity cables to target.

For every attack which took place, five more were aborted. On one night, his group ventured out in the darkness to attack electricity poles on farmland near Kinawley. "We went out to cut poles and one of the men directing it shouted 'stop', because they supplied electricity to local dairy farms. The local farmers wouldn't have been able to milk the cows. It was called off," he says.

Diesel and the other men involved were careful not to get caught. They used a range of different chainsaws after they were told the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) had begun spraying an invisible chemical marker on poles, which tagged any blade that came into contact with them.

Some acts of intimidation involved physical attacks on the factories themselves, using heavy goods vehicles to crash into buildings. As before, those involved were instructed by the same people who had information on how to avoid detection. The attackers were supplied with the keys of company vehicles and told they were unlikely to be caught on CCTV.

Three days before Christmas 2011, Diesel and his accomplices were told to use a rigid lorry to smash into the headquarters of the Quinn Group. The staff canteen had to be demolished afterwards, such was the damage they caused.

"The keys to the lorry used in the attack were left in the dash. There were people on watchout. We rammed the lorry into the canteen and crashed it. Our instructions were to drive Paul O'Brien out of the company and get it back for Seán Quinn," says Diesel, who suggested that the keys to the vehicle may have been removed from a company safe box earlier.

Running parallel to this were campaigns on Facebook by Concerned Irish Citizens (CIC), which condemned the actions of the banks. Public meetings and protests were also organised to criticise the banks, sometimes attended by those involved in the sabotage.

Diesel is careful not to identify others who helped carry out attacks but insists none of his group was involved in torching O'Brien's car outside his home in Co Meath, or responsible for sending bullets and funeral wreaths to business people interested in buying the company.

The attacks were usually organised by word of mouth. Planning meetings were held in a farmhouse owned by one of the people directing the sabotage, who occasionally participated in the raids themselves. These included the arson attack that caused extensive damage to an isolated electricity sub-station near a wind farm on Slieve Rushen near Derrylin, which Diesel helped set alight in November 2012.

"We met behind the sheds at his farmhouse that night and set off across the fields. There was a lot of talk beforehand. One of their wives was there. The keys were supplied to us so we could get past the rail [outside fence] around the station and then get inside," he says.

"We used a quad to transport the petrol across the fields. When we got inside the station, he [a named person] used these big spanners to take the bolts off the electrical equipment. The petrol was poured into it and then set on fire. When she went up, we all went back to his house. It caused huge damage."

The purpose of the first series of attacks, between 2011 and late 2014, was to prevent Wallace from selling off Quinn's assets to third parties. There was a temporary lull in 2015 when QIH bought some of Quinn's cement and building materials factories for €90m with the backing of the American investors Brigade Capital, Contrarian Capital and Silver Point Capital, but the attacks soon started again.

Although QIH hired Quinn as a consultant to help run the business, the business was targeted four days after its founder's return in January 2015. On that occasion, a lorry parked outside its head office was set ablaze.

This attack was carried out in an attempt to confuse the gardai and PSNI about the group's motives for the earlier incidents.

The attacks against Quinn's other companies near Derrylin continued, though not at the same intensity. Security staff at the wind farm on Slieve Rushen were threatened by masked men, while boulders were used to block the mountainous road leading to it. The road was used by engineers who serviced the turbines. Many of these incidents were allegedly carried out by people who were QIH staff.

By late 2015, the relationship between the local people who carried out the attacks and those who secretly directed them soured when it became known that Quinn would not be taking back control of QIH. The businessman had become embroiled in a bitter row with QIH and subsequently left in May 2016, saying he had been given assurances he would be allowed to run the business but promises had been broken.

"The people who got us involved at the start continued working in QIH after Quinn left. They think no one knows about their involvement in the attacks. They think no one will say anything in case they incriminate themselves," says Diesel, who suggests this is among the reasons why the attacks on QIH have recommenced.

The second tranche of attacks, focusing not just on QIH but its board of directors, commenced before Quinn's departure and have continued since. He has repeatedly condemned all attacks on the business and its staff. Some of these attacks were carried out by Diesel and his accomplices, who sabotaged machinery and put signs up warning local people about QIH and its directors. The signs describe the board members as "money-grabbing traitors".

Diesel says he had no involvement in the more serious attacks on the company's executives, or the kidnapping of Kevin Lunney, the QIH chief executive, from outside his home in Fermanagh. If he does know who organised the abduction, he is not saying. He claims most local people knew Cyril McGuinness, one of the criminals suspected of involvement in the abduction, to see around the area, but would have been wary of him. McGuinness, 54, died of a suspected heart attack during a police raid 10 days ago at a house in Buxton, Derbyshire.

"Most of the attacks were organised by certain people who used us to do their dirty work," Diesel concludes.

"They stayed in QIH after Quinn left. They are rotten to the core. We were used by these selfish people who now think they can walk away — but they are mistaken. This has a way to go yet."


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/why-i-attacked-sean-quinn-s-former-companies-ksfnh73kf

It's a little bit convenient though? He was only involved in harmless attacks to get Quinn his business back, it had been organised by people other than SQ and he had nothing to do with the escalated attempts to force the company back into Quinn's hands.

Reads like there was a meeting at the Quinn family household and it was decided one of their stooges would deliver this story in response to the QIH directors all but pointing the finger at Quinn. It's an article with an unnamed person pointing the finger at unnamed people but clearing SQ.

My question is why is the guy coming forward? What's his gain from it?

I read the same article in the times. Has he been sent forward by the paymaster?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 17, 2019, 08:05:32 PM
Looks like it.
Quinns must think people are pure stupid.
Where's Brian Darcy, Micky Harte, Colm O'Rourke, Sean Boylan and the rest?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: marty34 on November 17, 2019, 08:17:22 PM
Seems to have started out as a campaign of low level obstruction by locals but is this why this person has come forward - to say that there are different groups involved?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 17, 2019, 09:05:05 PM
According to Diesel,  the dogs on the streets are ones to talk to, they are in the know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 17, 2019, 09:26:54 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 17, 2019, 08:17:22 PM
Seems to have started out as a campaign of low level obstruction by locals but is this why this person has come forward - to say that there are different groups involved?

I don't know, it seems more to point the blame at people still involved in QIH being responsible for organising the original campaign.

The timing seems very convenient though, you don't have to be a genius to see who the QIH directors and media are pointing the finger at being the paymaster, it looks like a smokescreen to deflect away from that and back in the accusers direction.

The word of an unnamed criminal is hardly the most convincing source though.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 17, 2019, 09:29:00 PM
Why would people who are part of QIH be attacking their own businesses?
It's another deflection attempt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on November 17, 2019, 09:57:39 PM
But "Diesel" says it has nothing to do with a shadowy paymaster, so he does! Just a handful of Quinn loyalists. SQ probably wouldnt have known anything about it, "Diesel" says, so he does!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 17, 2019, 10:06:19 PM
Diesel is the name and diesel is the game.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Esmarelda on November 17, 2019, 10:07:58 PM
Fair play to diesel for heading out in the dark to commit crimes for a fella he doesn't even know.

It's borderline Waterford Whispers stuff.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: marty34 on November 17, 2019, 10:29:08 PM
 
Quote from: Main Street on November 17, 2019, 10:06:19 PM
Diesel is the name and diesel is the game.

Yeah, what sort of name is that? Could the journalist not have picked Tommy or something.  Using Diesel seems to conjure up smuggling along the border.

Maybe that's a deliberate ploy ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on November 17, 2019, 10:47:15 PM
Surely this gang and Dublin Jimmy's gang could have been doing mad shit separately??

In which case the paymaster is still very relevant!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on November 17, 2019, 11:50:25 PM
Quote from: marty34 on November 17, 2019, 10:29:08 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 17, 2019, 10:06:19 PM
Diesel is the name and diesel is the game.

Yeah, what sort of name is that? Could the journalist not have picked Tommy or something.  Using Diesel seems to conjure up smuggling along the border.

Maybe that's a deliberate ploy ?

Vin
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: under the bar on November 17, 2019, 11:58:19 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 17, 2019, 10:47:15 PM
Surely this gang and Dublin Jimmy's gang could have been doing mad shit separately??

In which case the paymaster is still very relevant!

BBC Spotlight being used as part of the decoy!?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 18, 2019, 12:16:31 AM
The dogs on the street know that not even the purifying presence of Mickey Harte by the side of the paymaster could detoxify the perception his utter and total ignominy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 18, 2019, 01:16:53 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on November 17, 2019, 10:07:58 PM
Fair play to diesel for heading out in the dark to commit crimes for a fella he doesn't even know.

It's borderline Waterford Whispers stuff.

;D :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 18, 2019, 02:46:07 AM
This information is not new for anyone in the local area. And was alluded to by myself and others previously. Might not fit everyone's agenda and people will likely believe their own bias regardless. Myself included.
But it's not straightforward either.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dire Ear on November 18, 2019, 01:33:39 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 18, 2019, 12:16:31 AM
The dogs on the street know that not even the purifying presence of Mickey Harte by the side of the paymaster could detoxify the perception his utter and total ignominy.
F me,  Tyrone are in yer head bigtime !!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 18, 2019, 04:56:43 PM
One thing this all highlights is a lack of real intelligence. We're meant to believe that they are carrying out these attacks on their own employer and lets face it indirect employer without being paid! If Fermanagh / Cavan lost these jobs they'd be replaced by fresh air. There's no case that can be made for carrying out these attacks "Voluntarily". It's lunacy to suggest that there isn't a paymaster involved.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: five points on November 18, 2019, 05:11:18 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 18, 2019, 04:56:43 PM
One thing this all highlights is a lack of real intelligence. We're meant to believe that they are carrying out these attacks on their own employer and lets face it indirect employer without being paid! If Fermanagh / Cavan lost these jobs they'd be replaced by fresh air. There's no case that can be made for carrying out these attacks "Voluntarily". It's lunacy to suggest that there isn't a paymaster involved.

Or what started as a small and kinda believable lie has now swollen into a massive and ridiculously unbelievable one.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 18, 2019, 05:24:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 18, 2019, 04:56:43 PM
One thing this all highlights is a lack of real intelligence. We're meant to believe that they are carrying out these attacks on their own employer and lets face it indirect employer without being paid! If Fermanagh / Cavan lost these jobs they'd be replaced by fresh air. There's no case that can be made for carrying out these attacks "Voluntarily". It's lunacy to suggest that there isn't a paymaster involved.
There's no doubt some attacks were carried out by employees. Most locally know some involved. I'm sure some of the current directors will Definitely know that to be true. There's no doubt over that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on November 18, 2019, 06:09:21 PM
A lot of local people seem to know a lot of things, dont they! Pity no one seems to have the courage of the PP or John Bosco and come out strong and condemn it outright, or raise the matter to the relevant authority. Would all these locals "in the know" prefer to wait until a director is fatally wounded until they do the right thing. And wheres Saint Mickey sweet bollocks now too when it matters??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 18, 2019, 06:24:48 PM
You think no one has condemned the attacks?

Most people don't confuse rumour and hearsay as fact unlike the courageous PP. allegations without proof help little.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 18, 2019, 06:58:09 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 18, 2019, 02:46:07 AM
This information is not new for anyone in the local area. And was alluded to by myself and others previously. Might not fit everyone's agenda and people will likely believe their own bias regardless. Myself included.
But it's not straightforward either.

Go back many pages and I told ye something similar.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on November 18, 2019, 07:45:59 PM
Yea. You'd wait a long time on proof if you were depending on it. Meanwhile the directors are still being intimidated and worse.

Try asking them to relax a bit whilst the guards and/or the psni get a bit of a handle on it!  As you say so many times, plenty of locals know the inside track. yet the intimidation ( 70 occurrences x £20k a shout....allegedly) was allowed to run for over 5 years whilst no one had the courage to stand up and say enough is enough. The PP may have gone on a solo and maybe his info isnt 100% correct, time will tell if he is more right than wrong, but for now at least the intimidation has stopped.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 18, 2019, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: bannside on November 18, 2019, 07:45:59 PM
Yea. You'd wait a long time on proof if you were depending on it. Meanwhile the directors are still being intimidated and worse.

Try asking them to relax a bit whilst the guards and/or the psni get a bit of a handle on it!  As you say so many times, plenty of locals know the inside track. yet the intimidation ( 70 occurrences x £20k a shout....allegedly) was allowed to run for over 5 years whilst no one had the courage to stand up and say enough is enough. The PP may have gone on a solo and maybe his info isnt 100% correct, time will tell if he is more right than wrong, but for now at least the intimidation has stopped.
I've really lost what your saying. When did I mention anything about telling the directors to relax? My guess the attacks stopping would be due the ring leader dropping dead. The PP wasn't on a solo run. I'm sure he had it well discussed with his big mate, Tony Lunney before running to the media to tell them about his upcoming homily.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 18, 2019, 08:46:48 PM
So they're all baddies except of course poor put upon SQ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 18, 2019, 08:50:04 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 18, 2019, 08:46:48 PM
So they're all baddies except of course poor put upon SQ?
The ones doing the attacks? Err yes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dec on November 18, 2019, 09:39:03 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 17, 2019, 09:05:05 PM

According to Diesel,  the dogs on the streets are ones to talk to, they are in the know.


We should put the dogs in the street in charge of everything, that always know everything. In the north they knew all about collusion, who was and wasn't in the various paramilitaries and who was responsible for all the killings.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 18, 2019, 11:06:10 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 18, 2019, 06:58:09 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 18, 2019, 02:46:07 AM
This information is not new for anyone in the local area. And was alluded to by myself and others previously. Might not fit everyone's agenda and people will likely believe their own bias regardless. Myself included.
But it's not straightforward either.

Go back many pages and I told ye something similar.

Thanks for that, Diesel.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 19, 2019, 02:51:18 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 18, 2019, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: bannside on November 18, 2019, 07:45:59 PM
Yea. You'd wait a long time on proof if you were depending on it. Meanwhile the directors are still being intimidated and worse.

Try asking them to relax a bit whilst the guards and/or the psni get a bit of a handle on it!  As you say so many times, plenty of locals know the inside track. yet the intimidation ( 70 occurrences x £20k a shout....allegedly) was allowed to run for over 5 years whilst no one had the courage to stand up and say enough is enough. The PP may have gone on a solo and maybe his info isnt 100% correct, time will tell if he is more right than wrong, but for now at least the intimidation has stopped.
I've really lost what your saying. When did I mention anything about telling the directors to relax? My guess the attacks stopping would be due the ring leader dropping dead. The PP wasn't on a solo run. I'm sure he had it well discussed with his big mate, Tony Lunney before running to the media to tell them about his upcoming homily.
What was it about the priest's homily that upset you?

If the violent and sadistic opposition to QIH had an idealistic and charitable base instead of being a hired mercenary concept, it would continue in some form or another. But now it won't continue because it was enacted by thugs for hire and has been defeated.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on November 19, 2019, 08:12:03 AM
And most of what goodwill that still existed for the Quinns has evaporated. SQ coming across now as bitter and twisted and blaming everyone all around for his woes.

Would he not have been better continuing in hos consultancy role starting at half a million and helping to rebuild the company quietly. Im sure had that happened there would be twenty times more goodwill and by now his remuneration would have probably doubled and who knows maybe a few shares could have been bounced back over to him. Maybe Im too detached from this, but its clear SQ has played all his cards completely wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 19, 2019, 09:03:58 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 19, 2019, 02:51:18 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 18, 2019, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: bannside on November 18, 2019, 07:45:59 PM
Yea. You'd wait a long time on proof if you were depending on it. Meanwhile the directors are still being intimidated and worse.

Try asking them to relax a bit whilst the guards and/or the psni get a bit of a handle on it!  As you say so many times, plenty of locals know the inside track. yet the intimidation ( 70 occurrences x £20k a shout....allegedly) was allowed to run for over 5 years whilst no one had the courage to stand up and say enough is enough. The PP may have gone on a solo and maybe his info isnt 100% correct, time will tell if he is more right than wrong, but for now at least the intimidation has stopped.
I've really lost what your saying. When did I mention anything about telling the directors to relax? My guess the attacks stopping would be due the ring leader dropping dead. The PP wasn't on a solo run. I'm sure he had it well discussed with his big mate, Tony Lunney before running to the media to tell them about his upcoming homily.
What was it about the priest's homily that upset you?

If the violent and sadistic opposition to QIH had an idealistic and charitable base instead of being a hired mercenary concept, it would continue in some form or another. But now it won't continue because it was enacted by thugs for hire and has been defeated.

The PP is welcome to his opinion but in my view he should refrain from making allegations unless he has evidence to back up said allegations. In which case he would be better speaking to the Guards that preaching about it on a Sunday.
And if you think his homily was just by him your mad. He's a big mate of Tony Lunney's. You think the priest decided of his own bat to contact the media and make sure they were there to hear the homily? You don't find that just a little strange? It was orchestrated to try and do as much damage to SQ's name as possible.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 19, 2019, 09:08:52 AM
Quote from: bannside on November 19, 2019, 08:12:03 AM
And most of what goodwill that still existed for the Quinns has evaporated. SQ coming across now as bitter and twisted and blaming everyone all around for his woes.

Would he not have been better continuing in hos consultancy role starting at half a million and helping to rebuild the company quietly. Im sure had that happened there would be twenty times more goodwill and by now his remuneration would have probably doubled and who knows maybe a few shares could have been bounced back over to him. Maybe Im too detached from this, but its clear SQ has played all his cards completely wrong.

SQ was removed from the consultancy business. They were at logger heads on some decisions. Maybe SQ could have said "Feck it do what you want" but I don't think he's that sort of person. And he obviously feels an attachment to the business he built up.
Should he have just let them on with it. In my view yeah, it would have been the easier path so it's what I would have done.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 19, 2019, 09:14:21 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 19, 2019, 09:08:52 AM
Quote from: bannside on November 19, 2019, 08:12:03 AM
And most of what goodwill that still existed for the Quinns has evaporated. SQ coming across now as bitter and twisted and blaming everyone all around for his woes.

Would he not have been better continuing in hos consultancy role starting at half a million and helping to rebuild the company quietly. Im sure had that happened there would be twenty times more goodwill and by now his remuneration would have probably doubled and who knows maybe a few shares could have been bounced back over to him. Maybe Im too detached from this, but its clear SQ has played all his cards completely wrong.

SQ was removed from the consultancy business. They were at logger heads on some decisions. Maybe SQ could have said "Feck it do what you want" but I don't think he's that sort of person. And he obviously feels an attachment to the business he built up.
Should he have just let them on with it. In my view yeah, it would have been the easier path so it's what I would have done.

He lost that business due to his reckless gambling.

What about all the asset stripping and reneging on debts his family engaged in and how it had a huge impact on thousands of citizens in the state?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 19, 2019, 09:16:22 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 19, 2019, 09:14:21 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 19, 2019, 09:08:52 AM
Quote from: bannside on November 19, 2019, 08:12:03 AM
And most of what goodwill that still existed for the Quinns has evaporated. SQ coming across now as bitter and twisted and blaming everyone all around for his woes.

Would he not have been better continuing in hos consultancy role starting at half a million and helping to rebuild the company quietly. Im sure had that happened there would be twenty times more goodwill and by now his remuneration would have probably doubled and who knows maybe a few shares could have been bounced back over to him. Maybe Im too detached from this, but its clear SQ has played all his cards completely wrong.

SQ was removed from the consultancy business. They were at logger heads on some decisions. Maybe SQ could have said "Feck it do what you want" but I don't think he's that sort of person. And he obviously feels an attachment to the business he built up.
Should he have just let them on with it. In my view yeah, it would have been the easier path so it's what I would have done.

You don't think he is that type of person?

What about all the asset stripping and reneging on debts his family engaged in and how it had a huge impact on thousands of citizens in the state?
He obviously isn't that sort of person or otherwise he would have done that and got his £500,000 a year.

Edit* You've changed your post.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 19, 2019, 09:21:26 AM
The point about the asset stripping and reneging on debts still stands. The Quinn family behaved deplorably through those legal proceedings, they acted with contempt for the court and for the laws. They had no problem with the state picking up a billion euro tab for SQ's mistakes.

Why would people be surprised with the Quinn family being involved in underhand dealings re QIH and intimidation when they had no issue burdening the citizens of their state with the consequences of their mistakes?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 19, 2019, 09:27:08 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 19, 2019, 09:21:26 AM
The point about the asset stripping and reneging on debts still stands. The Quinn family behaved deplorably through those legal proceedings, they acted with contempt for the court and for the laws. They had no problem with the state picking up a billion euro tab for SQ's mistakes.

Why would people be surprised with the Quinn family being involved in underhand dealings re QIH and intimidation when they had no issue burdening the citizens of their state with the consequences of their mistakes?

People are entitled to believe that SQ's involved. But presenting it as fact is another case. I don't believe he was involved and I'll argue my point on that. I could be wrong, and maybe he is involved. But I certainly won't present my opinion as fact when my view is as much based on hearsay and conjecture as the other side.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 19, 2019, 09:43:00 AM
I wonder how much extra car and house insurance I'm paying because of Quinn's cowboy business?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: southtyronegael on November 19, 2019, 10:50:08 PM
It's 5% government levy on every insurance policy isn't it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: guy crouchback on November 20, 2019, 09:11:32 AM
its actually a bit higher its 7% now but most companies have so far absorbed the extra 2%.
thats only half the story though, the behavior of Quinn down the years went a long way to creating the dysfunctional insurance market we have at present. not the rest are much better. as someone involved in the industry i have always said that the insurance companies are by and large ran by spivs and chancres, but of course sean quinn raised the bar.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 20, 2019, 12:59:23 PM
https://m.independent.ie/business/irish/ibrc-liquidators-move-on-quinn-family-assets-38708794.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on November 21, 2019, 02:10:35 PM
Interesting comments from John bosco o'hagan...


http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/10/28/news/john-bosco-o-hagan-i-wish-i-had-never-tried-to-help-sean-quinn-1748052/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hound on November 22, 2019, 12:40:17 PM
Quote from: mick999 on November 21, 2019, 02:10:35 PM
Interesting comments from John bosco o'hagan...


http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/10/28/news/john-bosco-o-hagan-i-wish-i-had-never-tried-to-help-sean-quinn-1748052/
A really good piece.

You can see the goodwill to Quinn from most people around the area. But it was Quinn's greed that lost him his business and again it was his greed that has lost the goodwill of O'Hagan and his ilk.
Of course he doesn't come out and say it directly, but by the end of the interview, it seems clear that the reason that O'Hagan gave an interview about Quinn, was the Lunney torture.   2+2...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 23, 2019, 10:35:57 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-move-towards-the-endgame-and-victory-over-an-untouchable-gang-38718680.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 23, 2019, 11:00:29 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2019, 10:35:57 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-move-towards-the-endgame-and-victory-over-an-untouchable-gang-38718680.html

Paul Williams, I'll say no more. He's a late comer to this story but now of course he knows everything. Seems its a gang now, what about the mysterious paymaster?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 23, 2019, 12:46:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 23, 2019, 11:00:29 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2019, 10:35:57 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-move-towards-the-endgame-and-victory-over-an-untouchable-gang-38718680.html

Paul Williams, I'll say no more. He's a late comer to this story but now of course he knows everything. Seems its a gang now, what about the mysterious paymaster?
Bog standard stuff Itchy
Read the article, there's the gang, the bagman and the paymaster.
Williams has been writing about Sean Quinn/family  attacks on QIH and Anglo for years, he was also involved in the release of the Anglo Tapes and once publicly lauded as a hero by Sean Quinn
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 23, 2019, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 23, 2019, 12:46:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 23, 2019, 11:00:29 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2019, 10:35:57 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-move-towards-the-endgame-and-victory-over-an-untouchable-gang-38718680.html

Paul Williams, I'll say no more. He's a late comer to this story but now of course he knows everything. Seems its a gang now, what about the mysterious paymaster?
Bog standard stuff Itchy
Read the article, there's the gang, the bagman and the paymaster.
Williams has been writing about Sean Quinn/family  attacks on QIH and Anglo for years, he was also involved in the release of the Anglo Tapes and once publicly lauded as a hero by Sean Quinn

I dont care what Sean quinn or anyone else thinks of William's. As far as I'm concerned hes a slime ball. Made his money by glorifying drug dealers and gangsters.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: yellowcard on November 23, 2019, 03:17:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 23, 2019, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 23, 2019, 12:46:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 23, 2019, 11:00:29 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2019, 10:35:57 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-move-towards-the-endgame-and-victory-over-an-untouchable-gang-38718680.html

Paul Williams, I'll say no more. He's a late comer to this story but now of course he knows everything. Seems its a gang now, what about the mysterious paymaster?
Bog standard stuff Itchy
Read the article, there's the gang, the bagman and the paymaster.
Williams has been writing about Sean Quinn/family  attacks on QIH and Anglo for years, he was also involved in the release of the Anglo Tapes and once publicly lauded as a hero by Sean Quinn

I dont care what Sean quinn or anyone else thinks of William's. As far as I'm concerned hes a slime ball. Made his money by glorifying drug dealers and gangsters.

Is that the same Paul Williams who was previously under 24 hour Garda Protection and who received multiple death threats, you're just being daft. Those crime reporters whether or not you like them or the newspapers that they work for, are involved in a seriously risky business.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 23, 2019, 03:43:48 PM
Shot the messenger.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 23, 2019, 10:15:29 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 23, 2019, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 23, 2019, 12:46:13 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 23, 2019, 11:00:29 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2019, 10:35:57 AM
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-move-towards-the-endgame-and-victory-over-an-untouchable-gang-38718680.html

Paul Williams, I'll say no more. He's a late comer to this story but now of course he knows everything. Seems its a gang now, what about the mysterious paymaster?
Bog standard stuff Itchy
Read the article, there's the gang, the bagman and the paymaster.
Williams has been writing about Sean Quinn/family  attacks on QIH and Anglo for years, he was also involved in the release of the Anglo Tapes and once publicly lauded as a hero by Sean Quinn

I dont care what Sean quinn or anyone else thinks of William's. As far as I'm concerned hes a slime ball. Made his money by glorifying drug dealers and gangsters.
You had not read his article, yet you indicated that you had read it and offered a rubbish baseless opinion about it.
You also claimed that Williams was a latecomer to the story, when he's been writing about it for years.
As they say,  lack of sense is bad for the brain.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 24, 2019, 01:49:14 PM
Wonder will there be questions asked of what McCartain knew of the early attacks given some of the dialogue below.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/qih-directors-advised-online-protest-group-23fjg8bvq

Two directors of Quinn Industrial Holdings (QIH) advised and encouraged the protest campaign run by Concerned Irish Citizens (CIC) that sought to prevent the sale of companies once owned by tycoon Seán Quinn.

Emails seen by The Sunday Times show the CIC campaign was advised by Kevin Lunney, the QIH director who was abducted outside his home in Co Fermanagh in September.

Lunney prepared draft letters for CIC to send to the administrators of Quinn Insurance after it ran into financial difficulties, and he also advised a group spokeswoman, Patricia Gilheany, on what issues to raise when speaking publicly to the media.

In one email sent in 2011, Lunney told Gilheany to talk about job losses, instability and how taxpayers' money was being wasted by Anglo Irish Bank through its pursuit of Quinn after a receiver was appointed to sell its assets. The advice was given after Gilheany wrote to Lunney to say she might be invited to speak on Liveline, the RTE Radio show hosted by Joe Duffy, and she wanted to prepare for media questions.

"You should also talk about the redundancies already stated last week with more expected in the near future," wrote Lunney. The email was copied to two of Quinn's children, Seán Jr and Colette, and other parties. The Quinn family declined to comment when contacted yesterday.


CIC ran a high-profile campaign on Facebook which purported to represent the views of people in Cavan, Leitrim and Fermanagh who opposed the sale of the Quinn Group. The emails show it was provided with information and draft documents by Lunney and others who were once key figures in Quinn's organisation.

The sale of Quinn's assets triggered protests and, unrelated to those, a series of arson attacks and other forms of intimidation.

Other emails show John McCartin, a former Fine Gael councillor and non-executive director of QIH, was also in regular contact with Gilheany about the establishment of QBRC, a business entity which sought to have ownership of the companies retained locally.

In the email, McCartin complimented Gilheany for "driving OB nuts". This was a reference to Paul O'Brien, the executive appointed to oversee the sale of the businesses. He also thanked her for deterring potential investors including the Lagan Group from acquiring the assets. "We'll have to make sure you keep it up," he said.

"I think we have O'Brien under pressure. I think there's a great 'good cop, bad cop' thing going on between QBRC and CIC. We're playing it cool and level but the pressure you're putting on is very important. It shows what the alternative to dealing with us will be like," McCartin wrote in one email.

In another email, Gilheany sought permission from McCartin before posting a link to a newspaper story which had reported on his criticisms of DUP leader Arlene Foster, who had given an interview to say businesses would be reluctant to invest in the border region if the campaign of sabotage against Quinn's former companies continued.

"Probably no harm, Patricia. She deserved a slap on the wrist," wrote McCartin. "She let O'Brien make a cat's paw of her so she can suffer the consequences."

Gilheany declined to comment yesterday, citing legal reasons. McCartin referred questions to QIH when contacted. A spokesman for QIH declined to respond to specific questions about the contents of the emails but said it had always been the company's position that the businesses should remain in the locality under local management, and that anyone with information about intimidation or criminality should immediately report it to the authorities.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on November 24, 2019, 02:58:28 PM
These men were Quinn loyalists at the time, whats wrong with that. At the time they were acting in the best interest of their employer. Things then changed, roles were reversed and these men ended up heading a new management team that investors could put their trust in....which resulted in jobs in the area being secured.

Surely you are not insinuating any of the current directors in QIH had any role in instigating anything improper or worse illegal at that time? Yes/No. If the answer is No then I fail to see the point you are trying hard to make!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 24, 2019, 03:20:26 PM
Quote from: bannside on November 24, 2019, 02:58:28 PM
These men were Quinn loyalists at the time, whats wrong with that. At the time they were acting in the best interest of their employer. Things then changed, roles were reversed and these men ended up heading a new management team that investors could put their trust in....which resulted in jobs in the area being secured.

Surely you are not insinuating any of the current directors in QIH had any role in instigating anything improper or worse illegal at that time? Yes/No. If the answer is No then I fail to see the point you are trying hard to make!

You can make your own mind up regarding that. People are making their own assumptions regarding SQ with a complete lack of evidence regarding him being the paymaster. Some people might now question what the directors knew about the early attacks on the business.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 24, 2019, 03:36:32 PM
Quote from: bannside on November 24, 2019, 02:58:28 PM
These men were Quinn loyalists at the time, whats wrong with that. At the time they were acting in the best interest of their employer. Things then changed, roles were reversed and these men ended up heading a new management team that investors could put their trust in....which resulted in jobs in the area being secured.

Surely you are not insinuating any of the current directors in QIH had any role in instigating anything improper or worse illegal at that time? Yes/No. If the answer is No then I fail to see the point you are trying hard to make!

Is that the only conclusion you draw from that. Attacks going on today, you have no problem saying it's all big bad Sean Quinn. Attacks went on back then and it's nothing to do with McCartin or Lunney or any of those guys. Sure they were only " quinn loyalists" who just happened to buy the assets on the cheap following said violence. No that was all Sean Quinn too.

Maybe we need Paul William's to write an article about how he knew they were in it all along, give everyone nicknames.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on November 24, 2019, 03:55:28 PM
There is more than a chance that none of the above mentioned are squeaky clean, especially with the stakes so high. But there is a big difference in being part of a plan to make it difficult for outside investors to come in, and the kind of treatment metered out to Kevin Lunney. Someone was paying someone to carry out highly illegal acts of destruction and thuggery. Someone with both means and motive. Time will tell just who was the instigator behind this long reign of terror.....because someone was!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 24, 2019, 07:20:30 PM
Quote from: bannside on November 24, 2019, 03:55:28 PM
There is more than a chance that none of the above mentioned are squeaky clean, especially with the stakes so high. But there is a big difference in being part of a plan to make it difficult for outside investors to come in, and the kind of treatment metered out to Kevin Lunney. Someone was paying someone to carry out highly illegal acts of destruction and thuggery. Someone with both means and motive. Time will tell just who was the instigator behind this long reign of terror.....because someone was!

The attacks that prevented outside investors like Lagan were disgusting as well. There's nothing to show McCartin was directly involved but the emails would make you wonder what he did know.
I'll agree it's only a matter of time before they get the people involved. And that should be welcomed. I doubt this is the last article regarding this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 24, 2019, 08:15:55 PM
Quote from: bannside on November 24, 2019, 03:55:28 PM
There is more than a chance that none of the above mentioned are squeaky clean, especially with the stakes so high. But there is a big difference in being part of a plan to make it difficult for outside investors to come in, and the kind of treatment metered out to Kevin Lunney. Someone was paying someone to carry out highly illegal acts of destruction and thuggery. Someone with both means and motive. Time will tell just who was the instigator behind this long reign of terror.....because someone was!

Theres a difference but not a big difference. Bullets were sent in the post, people received death thrests. There was a truck rammed into reception and attempts to set it alight. Another difference was the media or politicians weren't too interested and outside the local papers very little was said. Grant no one was attack physically as far as I recall but probably because those attacked departed quickly enough.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: under the bar on November 24, 2019, 08:31:13 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 24, 2019, 07:20:30 PM
Quote from: bannside on November 24, 2019, 03:55:28 PM
There is more than a chance that none of the above mentioned are squeaky clean, especially with the stakes so high. But there is a big difference in being part of a plan to make it difficult for outside investors to come in, and the kind of treatment metered out to Kevin Lunney. Someone was paying someone to carry out highly illegal acts of destruction and thuggery. Someone with both means and motive. Time will tell just who was the instigator behind this long reign of terror.....because someone was!

The attacks that prevented outside investors like Lagan were disgusting as well. There's nothing to show McCartin was directly involved but the emails would make you wonder what he did know.
I'll agree it's only a matter of time before they get the people involved. And that should be welcomed. I doubt this is the last article regarding this.
Not sure they will get them.  The outrage at Lunney's torture and press coverage may make it all go away.
Regardless as to who the paymaster was, if it was career criminals or dissidents doing the dirty work it will take forensics to secure a conviction and they probably have covered their asses in that regard.  Ultimately if all the intimidation stops, everyone moves on and the media get offside then  the psni/gardai won't give a feck or waste many resources on what is essentially a commercial dispute
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: southtyronegael on November 26, 2019, 12:45:49 PM
Holy shit! After Mickey harte backing Sean Quinn now one of the hartes charged with lunnys kidnap!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 26, 2019, 12:47:15 PM
Quote from: southtyronegael on November 26, 2019, 12:45:49 PM
Holy shit! After Mickey harte backing Sean Quinn now one of the hartes charged with lunnys kidnap!

Behave yourself.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 26, 2019, 02:21:22 PM
I thought twas all Sean Quinn?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on November 26, 2019, 02:26:32 PM
Political or "Political"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:27:13 PM
Wouldn't suspect SQ would get his hands dirty but I did hear a relative of a well known Cavan political family was questioned for their role in the Lunney attack.

Was wondering if there is anything to it or of anyone heard similar?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on November 26, 2019, 02:26:32 PM
Political or "Political"

One of the 26 establishment parties is what I've been told.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 26, 2019, 02:40:22 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Apparently so. Next week where is Shergar, who shot the Pope and what was Sean Quinn doing as the grassy knoll.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cavan19 on November 26, 2019, 03:48:06 PM
This is all going to make a great film some day.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Mourne Red on November 28, 2019, 11:26:36 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.

Wonder which one of them will tell the Guards that Quinn Jr is the paymaster
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 11:38:19 AM
Quote from: Mourne Red on November 28, 2019, 11:26:36 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.

Wonder which one of them will tell the Guards that Quinn Jr is the paymaster

I'm sure Quinn would have had enough layers between him and the lackeys to be linked if this was the case, he was at pains to tell us he wasn't a fool in the interview he gave.

The son on the other hand seems like a bit of a liability.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 28, 2019, 11:54:59 AM
Quote from: Mourne Red on November 28, 2019, 11:26:36 AM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.

Wonder which one of them will tell the Guards that Quinn Jr is the paymaster

Sure why don't you go in and tell them yourself?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.
That sounds like a Cavan plan, a Cavan lad planning a kidnap and torture event, decides that subterfuge is getting his mom to purchase credit for the phones, that in all eventualities it could never fall back to him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on November 28, 2019, 12:49:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 11:38:19 AM
I'm sure Quinn would have had enough layers between him and the lackeys to be linked if this was the case, he was at pains to tell us he wasn't a fool in the interview he gave.

The son on the other hand seems like a bit of a liability.

If he wasn't a fool why did he invest €4Bn in Anglo-Irish bank?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 28, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.
That sounds like a Cavan plan, a Cavan lad planning a kidnap and torture event, decides that subterfuge is getting his mom to purchase credit for the phones, that in all eventualities it could never fall back to him.

You're the bigger fool to believe anything Angelo says.

Now tell me where was that Hughes lad from that was trafficking humans in the back of trucks?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 28, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.
That sounds like a Cavan plan, a Cavan lad planning a kidnap and torture event, decides that subterfuge is getting his mom to purchase credit for the phones, that in all eventualities it could never fall back to him.

You're the bigger fool to believe anything Angelo says.

Now tell me where was that Hughes lad from that was trafficking humans in the back of trucks?
Where did I say that I believed what was written by Angelo.
Do you have any theories about the inspiration  and subsequent motivation for the attacks against QIH?


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 01:46:51 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 28, 2019, 12:49:05 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 11:38:19 AM
I'm sure Quinn would have had enough layers between him and the lackeys to be linked if this was the case, he was at pains to tell us he wasn't a fool in the interview he gave.

The son on the other hand seems like a bit of a liability.

If he wasn't a fool why did he invest €4Bn in Anglo-Irish bank?

He claimed he was a fool then actually, now he claims he's not a fool.

It seems SQ is happy to wear the dunce hat when it aligns with his needs.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 28, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.
That sounds like a Cavan plan, a Cavan lad planning a kidnap and torture event, decides that subterfuge is getting his mom to purchase credit for the phones, that in all eventualities it could never fall back to him.

You're the bigger fool to believe anything Angelo says.

Now tell me where was that Hughes lad from that was trafficking humans in the back of trucks?
Where did I say that I believed what was written by Angelo.
Do you have any theories about the inspiration  and subsequent motivation for the attacks against QIH?

A)It could be done in support of Quinn rather than at his instruction. I don't think anyone would have disputed the support and loyalty SQ had in the area.
B) KL has an on-going family feud with another family in Kinawley that has already spilled over to police involvement, restraining orders etc.
C) Maybe the current directors hands weren't clean from the early attacks to get the buy out completed and the people involved aren't happy to stand down just because the Directors seem to have got what they wanted.

Might be none of the above either. 


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 01:58:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 28, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.
That sounds like a Cavan plan, a Cavan lad planning a kidnap and torture event, decides that subterfuge is getting his mom to purchase credit for the phones, that in all eventualities it could never fall back to him.

You're the bigger fool to believe anything Angelo says.

Now tell me where was that Hughes lad from that was trafficking humans in the back of trucks?
Where did I say that I believed what was written by Angelo.
Do you have any theories about the inspiration  and subsequent motivation for the attacks against QIH?

A)It could be done in support of Quinn rather than at his instruction. I don't think anyone would have disputed the support and loyalty SQ had in the area.
B) KL has an on-going family feud with another family in Kinawley that has already spilled over to police involvement, restraining orders etc.
C) Maybe the current directors hands weren't clean from the early attacks to get the buy out completed and the people involved aren't happy to stand down just because the Directors seem to have got what they wanted.

Might be none of the above either.

I'd file those under the far fetched variety.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 01:58:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 28, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.
That sounds like a Cavan plan, a Cavan lad planning a kidnap and torture event, decides that subterfuge is getting his mom to purchase credit for the phones, that in all eventualities it could never fall back to him.

You're the bigger fool to believe anything Angelo says.

Now tell me where was that Hughes lad from that was trafficking humans in the back of trucks?
Where did I say that I believed what was written by Angelo.
Do you have any theories about the inspiration  and subsequent motivation for the attacks against QIH?

A)It could be done in support of Quinn rather than at his instruction. I don't think anyone would have disputed the support and loyalty SQ had in the area.
B) KL has an on-going family feud with another family in Kinawley that has already spilled over to police involvement, restraining orders etc.
C) Maybe the current directors hands weren't clean from the early attacks to get the buy out completed and the people involved aren't happy to stand down just because the Directors seem to have got what they wanted.

Might be none of the above either.

I'd file those under the far fetched variety.

Right up there with Tyrone having the best championship in Ulster.  :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 02:11:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 01:58:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 28, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.
That sounds like a Cavan plan, a Cavan lad planning a kidnap and torture event, decides that subterfuge is getting his mom to purchase credit for the phones, that in all eventualities it could never fall back to him.

You're the bigger fool to believe anything Angelo says.

Now tell me where was that Hughes lad from that was trafficking humans in the back of trucks?
Where did I say that I believed what was written by Angelo.
Do you have any theories about the inspiration  and subsequent motivation for the attacks against QIH?

A)It could be done in support of Quinn rather than at his instruction. I don't think anyone would have disputed the support and loyalty SQ had in the area.
B) KL has an on-going family feud with another family in Kinawley that has already spilled over to police involvement, restraining orders etc.
C) Maybe the current directors hands weren't clean from the early attacks to get the buy out completed and the people involved aren't happy to stand down just because the Directors seem to have got what they wanted.

Might be none of the above either.

I'd file those under the far fetched variety.

Right up there with Tyrone having the best championship in Ulster.  :D

Not really, what the Ulster club has shown us so far this year is that there is little between the all the teams and Tyrone has by far and away the most competitive senior club championship.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 02:14:29 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 02:11:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 01:58:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 28, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.
That sounds like a Cavan plan, a Cavan lad planning a kidnap and torture event, decides that subterfuge is getting his mom to purchase credit for the phones, that in all eventualities it could never fall back to him.

You're the bigger fool to believe anything Angelo says.

Now tell me where was that Hughes lad from that was trafficking humans in the back of trucks?
Where did I say that I believed what was written by Angelo.
Do you have any theories about the inspiration  and subsequent motivation for the attacks against QIH?

A)It could be done in support of Quinn rather than at his instruction. I don't think anyone would have disputed the support and loyalty SQ had in the area.
B) KL has an on-going family feud with another family in Kinawley that has already spilled over to police involvement, restraining orders etc.
C) Maybe the current directors hands weren't clean from the early attacks to get the buy out completed and the people involved aren't happy to stand down just because the Directors seem to have got what they wanted.

Might be none of the above either.

I'd file those under the far fetched variety.

Right up there with Tyrone having the best championship in Ulster.  :D

Not really, what the Ulster club has shown us so far this year is that there is little between the all the teams and Tyrone has by far and away the most competitive senior club championship.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on November 28, 2019, 03:45:18 PM
Donegal???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 08:07:18 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 02:14:29 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 02:11:55 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 01:58:21 PM
Quote from: supersarsfields on November 28, 2019, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 01:32:59 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 28, 2019, 12:59:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 28, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 27, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:46:50 PM
Quote from: heffo on November 26, 2019, 02:37:55 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 26, 2019, 02:10:53 PM
Did anyone hear something about a well known political Cavan family being involved?

There's a well known political Cavan family?

Yes.

Is this the person they cannot name for legal reasons?

"The men are Luke O'Reilly (66), Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan; Alan O'Brien (38), Shelmalier Road, East Wall, Dublin 3; Darren Redmond (25), Caledon Road, East Wall and another man in his 30s who cannot be named for legal reasons and by order of the court."

Don't think so, the person they can't name is up on a murder charge.

It's the mother and son who I've heard are connected to a well known political family in Cavan, I think the mother was brought in connection with buying credit for phones that were used in the Lunney kidnapping.
That sounds like a Cavan plan, a Cavan lad planning a kidnap and torture event, decides that subterfuge is getting his mom to purchase credit for the phones, that in all eventualities it could never fall back to him.

You're the bigger fool to believe anything Angelo says.

Now tell me where was that Hughes lad from that was trafficking humans in the back of trucks?
Where did I say that I believed what was written by Angelo.
Do you have any theories about the inspiration  and subsequent motivation for the attacks against QIH?

A)It could be done in support of Quinn rather than at his instruction. I don't think anyone would have disputed the support and loyalty SQ had in the area.
B) KL has an on-going family feud with another family in Kinawley that has already spilled over to police involvement, restraining orders etc.
C) Maybe the current directors hands weren't clean from the early attacks to get the buy out completed and the people involved aren't happy to stand down just because the Directors seem to have got what they wanted.

Might be none of the above either.

I'd file those under the far fetched variety.

Right up there with Tyrone having the best championship in Ulster.  :D

Not really, what the Ulster club has shown us so far this year is that there is little between the all the teams and Tyrone has by far and away the most competitive senior club championship.

Indeed.
if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Tyrone GAA
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on November 28, 2019, 10:22:28 PM
Goodwin's law?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 28, 2019, 10:27:46 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 28, 2019, 10:22:28 PM
Goodwin's law?
Hogan's law.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 06, 2019, 10:02:32 PM
Any sign of the mysterious "paymaster" or the famous Cavan political family being brought to justice yet?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on December 07, 2019, 08:57:26 AM
There is bound to be a documentary in the offing on this one.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jim Bob on December 07, 2019, 07:05:45 PM
What about the McGuinness fella? I assume he is 6 foot under at this stage but where was he buried. Heard nothing about it at all.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: SkillfulBill on December 07, 2019, 09:54:09 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on December 07, 2019, 07:05:45 PM
What about the McGuinness fella? I assume he is 6 foot under at this stage but where was he buried. Heard nothing about it at all.

Gone up in smoke...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on December 09, 2019, 09:20:11 AM
What about the fellow in his 30's who could not be named for legal reasons?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 09, 2019, 03:29:11 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on December 09, 2019, 09:20:11 AM
What about the fellow in his 30's who could not be named for legal reasons?

A Dublin man up on charges for murder elsewhere, thats why not named.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jim Bob on December 09, 2019, 05:03:54 PM
Quote from: SkillfulBill on December 07, 2019, 09:54:09 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on December 07, 2019, 07:05:45 PM
What about the McGuinness fella? I assume he is 6 foot under at this stage but where was he buried. Heard nothing about it at all.

Gone up in smoke...

Cremated? Where? When?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: oliverkelly on December 10, 2019, 11:46:01 AM
Quote from: Jim Bob on December 09, 2019, 05:03:54 PM
Quote from: SkillfulBill on December 07, 2019, 09:54:09 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on December 07, 2019, 07:05:45 PM
What about the McGuinness fella? I assume he is 6 foot under at this stage but where was he buried. Heard nothing about it at all.

Gone up in smoke...

Cremated? Where? When?

The Kiln in Quinn Cement
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on September 28, 2020, 02:29:48 PM
I see the Quinn name being decommissioned.
Now the Company will be called "Mannok".
5 Directors still under Garda protection.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 28, 2020, 02:33:36 PM
Final nail in the coffin for Sean Quinn, so to speak
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on September 28, 2020, 09:42:59 PM
I'm still waiting to hear about the immanent announcement of the paymaster.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 29, 2020, 09:12:01 AM
That's been buried. Allegedly.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on September 29, 2020, 10:28:35 AM
The big whinge from Quinn was risible.

They own the company, they can change the name if they wish. It's a corporate entity not a cultural centrepiece.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: square_ball on September 29, 2020, 11:04:18 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 29, 2020, 10:28:35 AM
The big whinge from Quinn was risible.

They own the company, they can change the name if they wish. It's a corporate entity not a cultural centrepiece.

Him questioning what right they had to changing the name was particularly laughable.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on September 29, 2020, 01:15:39 PM
Quote from: square_ball on September 29, 2020, 11:04:18 AM
Quote from: Angelo on September 29, 2020, 10:28:35 AM
The big whinge from Quinn was risible.

They own the company, they can change the name if they wish. It's a corporate entity not a cultural centrepiece.

Him questioning what right they had to changing the name was particularly laughable.
We won't be laughing when some poor focker gets tortured as a result.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 29, 2020, 01:17:32 PM
All those new lorries they had brought in be lucky to see the weekend through.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....

The arrest of the paymaster is imminent
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....

The arrest of the paymaster is imminent

Who is the paymaster? Quinn?
Do you think Cyril McGuinness was just acting off his own initiative?

I don't know and am genuinely interested.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....

The arrest of the paymaster is imminent

Who is the paymaster? Quinn?
Do you think Cyril McGuinness was just acting off his own initiative?

I don't know and am genuinely interested.

About 100 pages ago I addressed all that. But basically..

- Lunney and crew were happy to gain from the work of dissident and criminals who were attacking previous owners
- Previous owners left as a result and Lunney group came in. Attacks stopped
- Quinn came into the board and then got booted out
- Some talk of Lunneys gang selling out sections to competition (Quinn would never have done this)
- Attacks restart, Lunney threatened and eventually kipnapped and assaulted.

So whether the dissidents/criminals returned to be seen to protect local jobs and to garner support in the area at a time when they were trying to rebuild or whether others unknown were encouraging them is my best bet. I dont think Sean Quinn was involved in that is my opinion, not sure what his motive would be cos either way he can never get his company back.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Angelo on March 19, 2021, 03:26:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....

The arrest of the paymaster is imminent

Who is the paymaster? Quinn?
Do you think Cyril McGuinness was just acting off his own initiative?

I don't know and am genuinely interested.

About 100 pages ago I addressed all that. But basically..

- Lunney and crew were happy to gain from the work of dissident and criminals who were attacking previous owners
- Previous owners left as a result and Lunney group came in. Attacks stopped
- Quinn came into the board and then got booted out
- Some talk of Lunneys gang selling out sections to competition (Quinn would never have done this)
- Attacks restart, Lunney threatened and eventually kipnapped and assaulted.

So whether the dissidents/criminals returned to be seen to protect local jobs and to garner support in the area at a time when they were trying to rebuild or whether others unknown were encouraging them is my best bet. I dont think Sean Quinn was involved in that is my opinion, not sure what his motive would be cos either way he can never get his company back.

Where are you hearing the arrest of the paymaster is imminent?

Is that the talk locally or has there been any official comment made on the investigation?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 06:38:02 PM
Quote from: Angelo on March 19, 2021, 03:26:19 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....

The arrest of the paymaster is imminent

Who is the paymaster? Quinn?
Do you think Cyril McGuinness was just acting off his own initiative?

I don't know and am genuinely interested.

About 100 pages ago I addressed all that. But basically..

- Lunney and crew were happy to gain from the work of dissident and criminals who were attacking previous owners
- Previous owners left as a result and Lunney group came in. Attacks stopped
- Quinn came into the board and then got booted out
- Some talk of Lunneys gang selling out sections to competition (Quinn would never have done this)
- Attacks restart, Lunney threatened and eventually kipnapped and assaulted.

So whether the dissidents/criminals returned to be seen to protect local jobs and to garner support in the area at a time when they were trying to rebuild or whether others unknown were encouraging them is my best bet. I dont think Sean Quinn was involved in that is my opinion, not sure what his motive would be cos either way he can never get his company back.

Where are you hearing the arrest of the paymaster is imminent?

Is that the talk locally or has there been any official comment made on the investigation?

Its sarcasm Angelo because apparently it was imminent about 2 yrs ago according to media and a few on here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on June 03, 2021, 07:43:04 PM
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2021/0603/1225808-kevin-lunney-court/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 08, 2021, 05:23:32 PM
https://www.shannonside.ie/news/three-found-guilty-of-attack-on-kevin-lunney-cavan-man-acquitted-192971
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on November 08, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Whos this xy boy they still cant name? His other dealings are certainly taking a while....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on November 08, 2021, 09:45:05 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....

The arrest of the paymaster is imminent

Who is the paymaster? Quinn?
Do you think Cyril McGuinness was just acting off his own initiative?

I don't know and am genuinely interested.

About 100 pages ago I addressed all that. But basically..

- Lunney and crew were happy to gain from the work of dissident and criminals who were attacking previous owners
- Previous owners left as a result and Lunney group came in. Attacks stopped
- Quinn came into the board and then got booted out
- Some talk of Lunneys gang selling out sections to competition (Quinn would never have done this)
- Attacks restart, Lunney threatened and eventually kipnapped and assaulted.

So whether the dissidents/criminals returned to be seen to protect local jobs and to garner support in the area at a time when they were trying to rebuild or whether others unknown were encouraging them is my best bet. I dont think Sean Quinn was involved in that is my opinion, not sure what his motive would be cos either way he can never get his company back.

With respect, if you don't think Quinn is invloved, even tacitly, you are a cabbage.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: The Wedger on November 08, 2021, 10:37:41 PM
Big read: 'An ordeal of callous brutality' that left Quinn executive Kevin Lunney with life-altering injuries

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/big-read-an-ordeal-of-callous-brutality-that-left-quinn-executive-kevin-lunney-with-life-altering-injuries-41031626.html

Andrew Phelan

November 08 2021 07:30 PM

MUTILATED, covered in blood and semi-naked, the businessman crawled, inch by agonising inch along a lonely country road in a desperate bid to get to safety after being tortured and dumped in a ditch.

His right leg was shattered and he was branded like an animal, with his firm's initials – QIH – carved into his chest by a gang of masked kidnappers as a warning to resign.

Dazed and shivering from hypothermia as night fell, he just managed to save himself by flagging down a passing tractor.

The border region has had its fair share of dark days, but this was not some Troubles-era punishment beating. This was Ireland on September 17, 2019.

The now-infamous attack on Kevin Lunney was the latest escalation in a campaign of intimidation targeting executives at Quinn Industrial Holdings.

But its barbarity was unlike anything seen in recent times.

After a nine-week trial, three men now stand convicted for their part in Mr Lunney's horrifying ordeal. A fourth has been acquitted.

Involved in the abduction and torture were "YZ," (40), who cannot legally be named, Darren Redmond (27), of Caledon Road, and Alan O'Brien (40), of Shelmalier Road, both in East Wall, Dublin.

They were all found guilty of false imprisonment and causing Mr Lunney (52) serious harm.

Luke O'Reilly (68), from Mullahoran Lower, Kilcogy, Co Cavan, had been accused of providing logistical support to the operation, allowing his land to be used to imprison Mr Lunney and fetching bleach for the captors.

Finding him not guilty, the court ruled that although he bought the bleach, there was a doubt as to whether he had the intent to commit those specific offences of falsely imprisoning and harming Mr Lunney.

The QIH director's nightmare began less than two and a half hours before he was dumped on that Co Cavan roadside.


He had finished work at his office in Ballyconnell Road, Derrylin, Co Fermanagh as usual around 6.30pm.

It was a dry, bright autumn evening as he made the less than 10-minute drive to his home on nearby Stragowna Road, where he lives with his wife and six children.

Darren Redmond from Caledon Road, East Wall, Dublin 3, pictured arriving at the Criminal Courts of Justice. Photo: Collins Courts
Darren Redmond from Caledon Road, East Wall, Dublin 3, pictured arriving at the Criminal Courts of Justice. Photo: Collins Courts
The first sign of anything amiss was when he pulled into the entrance laneway to find a car he didn't recognise in the path ahead; a light-coloured BMW.

Before he had a chance to react, it reversed at speed and smashed into the front of his Landcruiser.

Stunned, he saw two black-clad assailants in balaclavas get out of the BMW and run towards him.

One was built like him, but slightly taller and the other was slightly slimmer.

One carried in his arms a bunch of flapping cable ties and two milk containers filled with a clear liquid.

After the initial shock, Mr Lunney's survival instinct quickly kicked in and he locked the car door.

The assailants banged on it before smashing in the side window.

The BMW driver reached in, grabbing for Mr Lunney and the keys in the ignition.

Mr Lunney made his way to the back seat and tried to fight him off, kicking him in the shoulder and head and briefly pushing him back.

When he grabbed the man's balaclava, it moved a little and he glimpsed light brown or blond short hair and stubble.

The attacker retreated and pulled his mask back down before both men restrained him.

Next thing he recalled was standing outside, at the back of the car as they held him and frisked him, throwing his wallet on the ground.

A third man arrived in a black Audi A4.

He was dressed in a dark boiler suit and also masked but of slightly heavier build, slightly taller, and somewhat older than the others. He was holding a Stanley knife to Mr Lunney's throat.

After slicing his watch off his arm, the Dublin-accented attacker snarled: "Get into that."

Mr Lunney saw the Audi's open boot and the knifeman told him: "We want to talk to you... we aren't going to kill you."

Mr Lunney tried to fight them off but was bundled into the boot and the car sped away.

Even in this desperate situation, he managed to suppress his terror enough to take in as many details as he could from his surroundings, to get a sense of where he was being taken.

He deduced that they were approaching the border.

Drawing on every bit of technical knowledge he could muster, he began to look for a way to escape. He managed to pull the carpet from the boot-latch area and lifted the lever mechanism.

It opened. He knew he had just seconds to seize what could be his only chance. First, he waved at a passing tractor and car but nobody saw him.

Then, a shout came from the front: "He's opened the f***ing boot!"

It was now or never. The only way out was to jump from the speeding Audi.

But when he put a foot to the road, it tore the sole from his shoe and he realised he wouldn't survive the impact.

One of his captors reached back and grabbed his other foot, the car stopped and he was dragged out and onto the ground.

They surrounded him and again told him they just wanted to talk to him, but this time with the warning: "Get back in. If you don't, we will kill you."

The knife was again pressed to his neck and one of the attackers – he believed it was the knifeman but he was not sure – took out a wooden implement and struck him on the side of the face.

They drove on, the back-seat passenger holding Mr Lunney's hands in the boot.

His face still uncovered at this stage, Mr Lunney could see the man's black top had an Under Armour logo.

Agitated, the man asked over and over if Mr Lunney had any tracking devices, threatening to kill him if he did.

Noticing Mr Lunney's alertness to his surroundings, he barked: "Stop looking out."

The Audi's driver was on the phone to someone and Mr Lunney heard him say: "Boss, this man has resisted and we had to hit him."

A loose covering was put over his face and he was again told: "Don't be looking out."

Dazed, bleeding and in pain from the beating while being thrown about in the boot as the Audi crossed rougher country roads, Mr Lunney was still able to catch sight of vital clues from underneath the hood, between a gap in the back seat.

He saw the tops of trees, buildings, at one point a "Lakeland Dairies" sign and later what might have been a pub.

Trying not to lose track of time, he judged the length of the journey – 40 to 50 minutes.

Every small detail could be crucial to his survival, and to getting justice if he ever got out of this alive. If.

The awful journey finally came to a halt but Mr Lunney had no idea what was still to come.

"He broke the f***ing lock," one of his captors complained as Mr Lunney was taken out into an "overgrown place" covered in weeds, with some white buildings just visible from under his hood.

Bleeding and terrified, Mr Lunney tried to size up a rectangular, blue container as he was led inside.

Two and a half metres wide and high by six metres long, windowless and caked with animal dung, it was a horsebox, he realised with growing dread.

For the next 45 agonising minutes, this would be his prison and torture chamber.

"Do you know why you're here?" the man with the knife asked, pressing the blade to his neck again. "You're here because of Quinn Industrial Holdings. You're going to resign."

He was told he had "destroyed the company".

"It was clear I was going to resign or they were going to do something else to me," Mr Lunney would later recall.

"It wasn't a question, it was: you are going to resign."

He was told three other directors must also go, with an implication that they had all "done some damage to the business".

"And you are going to drop these cases and injunctions north and south," the knifeman continued.

At the time, QIH had two defamation cases jointly with Mr Lunney and two other directors, in Northern Ireland and the Republic.

Mr Lunney personally had an interim injunction against another individual in Northern Ireland.

The order to resign was repeated aggressively.

"Yes I will, and I will tell the others," Mr Lunney promised his captors. He pleaded: "Just don't kill me. I'll do whatever you want."

The man told him: "We know all about you. We know about your daughter in the GAA top. We have been watching you for six weeks."

It was no bluff; Mr Lunney's daughter did play Gaelic games and he had been with her at an event the previous weekend in Fermanagh.

He was under no illusion that if he did not do what they said, they would come back.

Suddenly, one of the men became preoccupied with the issue of forensics and said "we have a problem with DNA".

This seemed to have been the driver of the BMW, the back-seat passenger of the Audi who had held Mr Lunney in place and seemed so nervous about tracking devices.

He took the Stanley knife and seized Mr Lunney's hands.

"He grabbed my left hand first, he had the Stanley knife and he started to scrape my hands which were quite dirty... he started to scrape underneath my fingernails with the top of the Stanley knife," he later recalled.

It was deep enough to draw blood, and his nails were also cut. The man "spent some time" going around each finger.

"I was concerned at that stage he was going to cut my fingers off. I said 'don't cut my fingers off' and he said 'no, just give me your hands'," Mr Lunney recalled.

The man was still dissatisfied and they found a small bottle of eye drops Mr Lunney had, and put it on his fingernails; to get rid of evidence, he presumed.

The man said "the eye drops are no good, we need bleach" and his hands were tied with cable ties behind his back while two of the men left.

The remaining captor refused to let him stand for relief from kneeling in the hardened manure.

The other two returned after about 15 minutes with torches and Mr Lunney was told "give me your hands".

He was pushed on his side and they pulled on his hands and used a "rough type of rag" to rub them.

He smelled bleach and felt it burning his cut fingers.

They turned him back over and said "we will have to strip him", before taking off his socks and shoes and cutting his trousers from the bottom up with the knife.

"I could feel it cutting my legs a couple of times, scraping my legs," he recalled.

The rest of his clothes were "bunched up" from the cable ties and it was decided to cut them.

He was concerned as the blade went between the cable ties and his arms because it was very tight.

One of the men said they would take off Mr Lunney's boxer shorts and the one who had driven the Audi said: "No, leave him with his dignity."

More bleach was poured on the rag, and they rubbed him from head to toe with it.

"The cuts on my legs and hands were very sore," he later said.

He was given the rag with bleach on it and told to rub himself. He could feel it burn his cuts.

Someone asked: "Have you done his head?" Bleach was then squeezed under the face covering.

His head was rubbed, covering his face in bleach.

"I was coughing and spluttering, I found it irritating my eyes, I found it difficult to breathe," he said.

He was pulled to his feet and one of the men made reference again to him resigning from QIH and "dropping the cases and injunctions".

Mr Lunney again agreed and the man said "we'll let you go but we'll have to rough you up".

He was pushed down into a seating position. Mr Lunney asked "why?", but was only told: "We have to."

"Hold out your leg or we are going to hit your face," a captor ordered.

The man who had driven the Audi grasped a wooden implement "rougher than a bat" that looked like a fencepost.

The agony and terror suffered by Mr Lunney were clear in his account of the ordeal, despite his often understated and matter-of-fact turns of phrase.

"He hit very hard, the impact on my right leg was a very hard impact," Mr Lunney recalled. It was in the middle of his right shin and was "extremely sore".

"I think I shouted or roared or yelled or something, it was extremely painful. And the same individual who had hit me said to the other 'did that snap?'" he said.

Mr Lunney shouted "yes" in pain, but one of the men said no and "then he hit it again".

"I was conscious the leg was broken immediately," Mr Lunney said.

"The second blow was extremely painful. It was pretty much the same location."

The man dropped the implement, shone a light in his face and said "we will have to mark you".

"He pulled the cover to the side, caught my chin, pulled me to the right and made a number of cuts with the Stanley knife from my ear to my chin, down and across and did the same to the left," Mr Lunney said.

"I could sense blood flowing very quickly and some pain at my ear... but I had no particular sense of how deep they were."

The man struck him "as hard as it seemed to me he could" up to 20 times, each time saying "you are resigning" and each time, Mr Lunney said "yes".

The man said "all these cases", and Mr Lunney said "yes".

He said "and the others", and Mr Lunney replied: "Yes."

After, the man took the Stanley knife and said: "We will mark you, so that you will remember why you are here."

"He quickly scored Q.I.H downwards from my chest," Mr Lunney said. The man said the letters "QIH" as he did it "so you remember why you are here and that you will resign".

He was then told he would be let go and, after a 40-minute ordeal, they half-carried him from the horsebox as he hobbled.

He was pushed into the cargo area of what looked like a transit van.

One of the men got in the back and the other two were in the front.

The man who he believed had inflicted his injuries was driving. He again said that they were letting him go and "you're resigning now".

He heard the driver say to the passenger: "No, I take his word for it. He's going to resign."

"If we hear that you have talked to the guards about a gang of Dubs, we will be back," he was warned.

After about 20 minutes, the van stopped and he was pushed to the side door before falling out onto the roadside.

They threatened they would kill him if he looked at them.

One of them pushed his head toward the ditch and he was ordered to keep facing that way before the hood was pulled off his face and they drove off.

It was dark and when Mr Lunney's eyes focused, he could see that he was on a narrow, country road.

Although there were no houses, he was less than 100 metres from a junction with a larger road.

But it was a cold night, he was in his boxer shorts, freezing, in pain and unable to walk.

Summoning all his remaining strength, he began a laborious crawl towards the junction, dragging himself inch by inch along the road with his left arm and left leg.

He saw a car and shouted and waved at it but it kept driving and he willed himself on, shivering violently as hypothermia set in.

Reaching the junction, he made it into the middle of the road, but realised it was unsafe and returned to the verge.

He spotted a light from a window but, to his dismay, saw it was further away than the distance he had already crawled.

"I was exhausted," he said.

"I could sense the blood running down my chest. I was conscious my face was bleeding. My left arm and left leg was all I could use to push myself along but I decided to push myself towards that window."

He had crawled 30 to 40 metres when he heard a tractor. He saw lights coming, began waving and to his relief, it pulled up alongside him.

The driver, Aaron Brady was on his way from work in a nearby field when he saw Mr Lunney, covered in blood, lying in the ditch in only his boxer shorts.

He turned off the engine to hear what the wounded man was calling out.

"I've been attacked, call the guards," he croaked.

Mr Brady got out and Mr Lunney asked him to ring a number – the PSNI. Mr Brady also called his mother who came to help.

Another passing driver, Celine Duignan, stopped when she saw the tractor.

When told who the victim was, she recognised Mr Lunney as she herself had worked in Quinn Direct.

When Mr Lunney lifted his head, she saw he had been beaten up and dumped there.

There was a lot of blood coming from his face and she could see from the position of his leg that it was broken. There were cuts all over his body.

Ms Duignan called the gardaí and said "a man had been beaten up, it's Kevin Lunney and he was involved in the Quinn dispute".

She helped him, covering him with pyjamas she had in the car and she gave him "a drop of 7-Up".

An ambulance arrived and took him to Cavan General Hospital. He was later transferred to Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda.

Mr Lunney, who described his pain to medics as "very severe, 10 out of 10", was treated for hypothermia and multiple slash wounds to his face and body, requiring 24 stitches.

He had surgery to insert a pin into his broken right shin.

As a massive cross-border investigation got under way, it might have seemed at first that there was little to go on.

Three men. No faces. Some general height and build detail. A Dublin accent. A blue horsebox in an "overgrown" place.

But Mr Lunney's extraordinary presence of mind throughout the kidnapping gave detectives some valuable information.

His glimpses out of the Audi suggested he had been brought south across the border – there was a Lakeland Dairies in Killeshandra, Co Cavan.

This and his time frame guesses gave gardaí geographical pointers to focus their search.

Listening to his story that night, gardaí seized on the apparent fetching of bleach as an early lead.

Two of the attackers had been gone for no more than 15 minutes, which narrowed the trawl for possible purchases.

The next day, one of the shops Garda Patrick Lacken checked out was Lynch's Gala in Killydoon, Co Cavan.

Noticing a single bottle of bleach was missing from the shelf, he viewed CCTV and saw a grey-haired man buying it at 8pm on the 17th.

Shop assistant Megan McClean remembered the man having a local accent when he came in that evening in work clothes and asked: "Do you sell bleach?"

He seemed to have trouble finding it.

"I said that you mustn't be used to cleaning. He laughed and he agreed that he wasn't," she said.

They had chatted at the counter as he bought it and left.

That ordinary bottle of Domestos would prove to be the unlikely key that would unlock the whole investigation.

The grey-haired man was Luke O'Reilly, a local motor parts trader who lived 6km south of Killydoon, at Mullahoran.

"You're here because I bought that bottle of bleach," he told gardaí when they arrived at his home, but he insisted he got it for domestic purposes on a shopping trip for his wife.

The abduction had been "all over the news", but O'Reilly's first reaction still struck investigators as odd.

He denied any involvement in "what's happening around the Quinn companies" and said of Mr Lunney: "I wouldn't know the man if I met him."

"I have nothing to hide," he added, and handed over his phone.

Gardaí seized six bottles of bleach at his home and all but one – the wrong brand – were empty.

Peering in, just visible from behind the containers, officers could make out the top of a blue horsebox.

The yard matched Mr Lunney's description "exactly" and quickly became a crime scene.

The land, it turned out, belonged to Luke O'Reilly and the horsebox was stained inside with Kevin Lunney's blood.

Meanwhile, O'Reilly's phone records included extensive contact with Cyril McGuinness, a well-known gangster with the nickname "Dublin Jimmy", who detectives came to suspect of masterminding the abduction.

Gardaí began looking at who else McGuinness was in touch with in the lead up to the abduction.

One of his contacts was Dublin man YZ, who had already given gardaí his phone number during a bail hearing the previous year.

Gardaí trawled CCTV to track YZ's movements around the time of the kidnapping.

He had visited Store Street garda station the day before the abduction, September 16, and footage showed him leaving after 3pm.

Minutes later, YZ was seen arriving in a red Volkswagen outside a Dublin apartment complex, where he met Alan O'Brien.

The pair walked towards the car park and shortly after, at 3.15pm, a distinctive silver Renault Kangoo van with red lightning bolt stickers on the sides and a missing hubcap drove out, its lights flashing the Volkswagen as it left.

From there, the van was tracked as it made the journey to Cavan, where both men were clearly seen on CCTV at Applegreen service station in Virginia at 11.06pm that night, before returning to Dublin.

Footage from the following day showed YZ and O'Brien being joined by YZ's "good friend" Darren Redmond outside Island Key before they left, just after 1pm, on a repeat journey to Cavan.

Gardaí noticed that O'Brien appeared to be wearing a black Under Armour brand top.

As the Kangoo was tracked on CCTV, the passenger was seen to be wearing an Under Armour top.

Gardaí concluded the first trip to Cavan was a "dry run" and the second was the journey to the abduction.

They found out Cyril McGuinness had imported the Kangoo from the UK three weeks earlier, when it was shipped on a ferry from Holyhead to Dublin.

The Cork-registered Audi A4, suspected of being the car in the abduction of Mr Lunney, was identified on CCTV at key locations in Cavan on the 17th and had also been sourced by McGuinness.

The previous owner advertised it on DoneDeal in August and recalled "Dublin Jimmy" turning up to accompany an unknown buyer at the sale.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: The Wedger on November 08, 2021, 10:38:59 PM
McGuinness told the previous owner to record an incorrect date for the transaction and when gardaí checked, they could find nobody by the name given for the buyer.

The prosecution believed McGuinness was the "boss" who coordinated the kidnapping, while YZ, O'Brien and Redmond were the masked abductors and O'Reilly provided "logistical" support.

Their case was supported by location data for YZ and Redmond's phones on the 17th, and CCTV footage of the movements of "vehicles of interest" – the Kangoo van, the Audi and the BMW.

At one point in the trial, prosecutor Sean Guerin compared YZ's phone locations and camera sightings of the Kangoo, travelling side by side from Dublin to Cavan, as being like "footprints on a sandy beach".

Call records showed McGuinness had been in contact with O'Reilly, YZ and Redmond.

Of his last four calls the night before the abduction, three were to YZ and one was to O'Reilly as "arrangements were put in place".

Although no actual call content or messages were available, gardaí believed the records tallied with Mr Lunney's account.

Phone call records and location data supported their theory that YZ had left the horsebox during Mr Lunney's imprisonment and called McGuinness looking for bleach.

Gardaí believed the timing and locations showed McGuinness phoned O'Reilly to relay the request, and O'Reilly went and bought it, handing it over to YZ on the road.

Records showed a 7.52pm call from YZ to McGuinness followed by a call two minutes later from McGuinness to O'Reilly.

Minutes after that, YZ's phone location was travelling south on the N55 while Mr O'Reilly, who had just bought the bleach, was travelling north with it on the same road, in the direction of the yard in Drumbrade.

This was within the 15-minute timeframe Mr Lunney described.

Finding the actual "vehicles of interest" was also critical to the investigation.

At first, gardaí only had the stolen BMW 5-series that rammed Mr Lunney's car, but it had been left burned out at the scene and yielded little evidence.

The Audi that was used to abduct him was never found, and its previous owner could not pick out the unknown buyer in an ID parade that included Alan O'Brien.

There was also no trace of the transit van used to dump Mr Lunney on the roadside.

But on October 23, gardaí made a breakthrough when they intercepted the Kangoo van, just after O'Brien had dropped it off in a Co Meath test yard to be sold on.

Forensic tests found DNA from Mr Lunney in a suspected bloodstain in the Kangoo, on the sliding cargo door as well as from Redmond, on a metal bar behind the driver's seat. Mr Lunney had never been in the van, so detectives guessed his blood was transferred there by Redmond when he got back into it. Crucially, his DNA linked the Kangoo forensically to the crime.

On November 8, gardaí searched YZ, O'Brien and Redmond's homes. Among the discoveries in YZ's apartment was a crime scene "forensic casebook" in a bedroom, and on the kitchen counter, an e-flow tag.

Automatic Number Plate Recognition cameras and toll both records showed the tag had been used on the Cork-registered Audi A4 that was used to abduct Mr Lunney.

On the same day, police in Derbyshire raided McGuinness's home there, but he collapsed and died of a heart attack while they were carrying out the search.

The investigation would have to go on without its prime suspect, but the evidence against the other four was mounting.

Later that month, gardaí arrested and charged them.

In interview, O'Reilly admitted he knew McGuinness but said any phone contact they had at the time was about getting a truck for O'Reilly's motor parts-selling business.

He said his yard, which was used to store vehicles and trailers, was left open and remembered McGuinness used to drive in "like a crazy bastard" with a husky dog.

O'Reilly told gardaí he "felt bad" and was "shocked" when he found out what happened to Mr Lunney but he "didn't know anything about" him being held on his land at the time.

McGuinness had got him parts in the UK that were hard to find here but after the abduction, he said, he did not speak to "Dublin Jimmy" again because he was "not good news" and "not a good yoke".

Mr O'Reilly was shown footage of the Kangoo and said he had never seen it before.

YZ denied any involvement in the abduction during his garda interviews, saying he did not drive the Audi in which Mr Lunney was abducted. He denied beating him with a bat, cutting him with the blade and ordering him to resign.

"I wasn't there... I didn't do anything," he said.

He accepted he was friends with McGuinness and said "it's not illegal to be friends with people".

He could not account for Mr Lunney's DNA being found in the Kangoo.

YZ said he had got the e-flow tag from the Kangoo and that he had been asked to take it out when the van was being sold.

He refused to name names and said the Kangoo belonged to "a friend who is no longer with us".

He answered "no comment" when asked to account for being seen driving the Kangoo on the 16th, and his presence at Applegreen in Virginia that night.

O'Brien was interviewed and denied having left Dublin on the 17th.

The four accused finally went on trial at the non-jury, three-judge Special Criminal Court in June this year, following delays caused by the pandemic.

Mr Lunney was one of the first witnesses to take the stand, delivering a powerful if restrained account of his kidnap and torture.

Halfway through, Judge Tony Hunt asked if Mr Lunney wished to take a break. He declined and pressed on.

Lead prosecutor Sean Guerin didn't mince his words.

It was an "ordeal of callous brutality and gratuitous violence", he said.

What had happened to Mr Lunney was undisputed, but the assembled defence teams tried to block nearly every other piece of evidence from being admitted into the trial.

There were weeks of legal challenges to the admissibility of much of the evidence. It was claimed the phone data and CCTV footage were unlawfully gathered, with deficient warrant information, and were in breach of the accused's privacy and other rights.

The defence lawyers also asked the judges to rule out the findings of forensic tests carried out in the Kangoo.

They argued that the suspected bloodstain containing Mr Lunney's DNA found in the van by a crime scene examiner on October 31, 2019, had not been spotted in an initial test two days earlier. The defence questioned whether it had been there at all on the 29th, and suggested it was either inadvertently deposited by gardaí or deliberately planted.

In another unfortunate twist for the prosecution, on February 15, 2020, the Kangoo was destroyed in an accidental fire while in storage. It had been moved from the garda vehicle examination compound in Santry to secure storage at Ted Brennan's yard in Castleblayney, Co Monaghan, where a walkie talkie charger malfunction led to a blaze.

The defence claimed it was unfair they could not now get their own experts to test the van.

The judges rejected the challenges.

Mr Lunney was often in court, smartly dressed and watching attentively from the public gallery, sometimes taking notes on the most technical legal argument in a small black book on his lap. O'Reilly and Redmond also sat on the public benches to follow Covid distancing arrangements, with Alan O'Brien and YZ, who were in custody, side by side in the dock throughout.

None of the four accused gave evidence.

Hundreds of prosecution witnesses were called: gardaí, PSNI and English police officers, technical experts and civilians. But there was only one for the defence – a former GSOC (Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission) official who confirmed that even before the Kangoo was accidentally burned, YZ had believed the forensic evidence in it was planted.

Even when charged, YZ had persisted with his complaint, replying: "Not guilty, you planted evidence in that van...now it's completely burnt, destroyed by a fire in your custody."

The prosecution characterised the kidnapping as a "sophisticated, highly organised, serious criminal enterprise" and asked the court to convict the accused based on the phone, CCTV and DNA evidence.

Mr Guerin said in footage of YZ, O'Brien and Redmond on September 17, their general appearance and how they compared to each other could "hardly be better described by a person looking directly at the CCTV than by Mr Lunney".

CCTV showed "with perfect clarity" YZ and O'Brien travelling in the Kangoo to Cavan on September 16, supported by YZ's phone location records.

The next day, Redmond was seen walking towards the car park with them before the Kangoo left. YZ's phone location, along with Redmond's, were tracked to Cavan. There was no phone data placing O'Brien on the second trip to Cavan but Mr Guerin argued the "striking pattern of movement" was the same as the previous day and no other way for him to have left the car park had been identified.

O'Brien's assertion in interview that he never left Dublin that day was "no more than a bare denial" and not a detailed account of where he went, Mr Guerin said.

The prosecutor rejected the idea that the kidnappers could have been trespassing in O'Reilly's unlocked yard, saying their activities would have been "nearly impossible" without his involvement.

YZ, O'Brien and Redmond were directly connected to the Kangoo van where Mr Lunney's DNA was found, he said.

This evidence was "utterly incapable of explanation by any innocent circumstances".

It was a complex and purely circumstantial case, Mr Guerin said, but the evidence was "powerful" and "compelling".

On the defence's side, it was left mostly to the final speeches for their lawyers to spell out their cases.

Some of YZ's actions might have seemed "suspicious", his barrister Michael O'Higgins conceded, but the evidence fell short of proving guilt. YZ's friend, McGuinness, was "no saint", but guilt by association did not exist in law, he said.

Mobile phone cell-site traffic analysis suggested that it was not unusual for YZ to be in or about the border area, Mr O'Higgins said.

He asked the court to consider the fact that his client had left the e-flow tag on his kitchen counter despite the prosecution's depiction of him as being "forensically aware".

There must have been other people involved in the kidnapping, yet the prosecution had "simply allocated" lead parts to the people leaving Dublin in the Kangoo van, Mr O'Higgins said.

Mr Lunney described the Audi driver on a phone call saying "boss, this man has resisted", but there was no record of this call.

A burner phone had been suggested by the prosecution, but this did not explain YZ and McGuinness's apparent "unbelievable sloppiness" in then using their own phones in the supposed calls about the bleach.

Mr O'Higgins also raised the possibility that Mr Lunney's DNA was planted inside the Kangoo.

He said the technical examination facility where the van was kept was "not secure" as a garda testified he had entered it to remove a surveillance device, but this was not logged anywhere. The absence of any records for the compound was "somewhat surprising", Judge Hunt had remarked.

It was accepted Alan O'Brien went to Cavan in the Kangoo on September 16, but not on the day of the abduction, his barrister Giollaíosa Ó Lideadha said.

It could not be inferred that just because he went on one day he must have gone on the other, he argued.

He challenged the prosecution's claim that a passenger, seen on CCTV in the van on the 17th, was wearing the same clothes that O'Brien was seen wearing when he met YZ at the apartment car park earlier.

The prosecution said there was no other way out of the complex other than in the Kangoo, but this had been "proven to be incorrect" and there was a wall that could have been climbed over, he said. It was also possible to have left in another vehicle, or back into the apartments.

Mr Ó Lideadha argued there was a reasonable basis for concluding that Mr Lunney's DNA was not in the Kangoo when it was first examined on October 29, 2019. The prosecution had to prove the stain was there on this date and they could not prove it, because they did not know who had access to the van while it was in garda storage, he said.

There was no evidence O'Brien had ever been in contact with McGuinness.

Michael Bowman, for Darren Redmond, challenged the identification by gardaí of his client on CCTV on the 17th. He said mobile phone location purporting to show Redmond travelling to Cavan that day had actually shown "nothing other than the presence of a telephone possibly within a vehicle".

How or when Redmond's DNA got in the Kangoo had not been proven, Mr Bowman said. The van had been left unlocked on streets near Redmond's home several times.

A prosecution suggestion that the DNA got there as Redmond hung on to the bar to "make himself comfortable on the journey back to Dublin" on the 17th was not supported by forensic evidence and should be disregarded, he said.

Likewise, there was no evidence for a prosecution claim that Redmond got Mr Lunney's blood on his hands when pushing him onto the side of the road, he said.

Mr Bowman said the prosecution had "over-reached", using speculation and innuendo.

Michael Lynn SC said his client, Luke O'Reilly was a family man with his own business, no previous convictions and no propensity to offend in the way alleged.

It had not been shown that Mr O'Reilly had any knowledge of what was to happen to Mr Lunney and no evidence that his yard was used for "extensive preparations" ahead of the abduction.

There was no evidence he had met YZ to give him a bottle of bleach, he said.

His contacts with McGuinness were "business dealings" and at the time, the pair were communicating about importing a truck that Mr O'Reilly had bought from an online auction in the UK.

There was open access to the yard in Drumbrade as the gate was not locked and Mr O'Reilly did not regularly visit it, Mr Lynn said.

O'Reilly had given an accurate account of his movements on the day of the abduction, he said. But the lawyer asked the judges to consider, if they thought he was lying, it may have been out of fear for himself and his family if he said anything to incriminate McGuinness.

Ultimately, despite the sudden death of "Dublin Jimmy", the suspected mastermind of the abduction, the Special Criminal Court found ample evidence to convict three of the remaining four accused. Mr O'Reilly walked free from court today and the others will be sentenced later for their crimes.

Despite today's verdicts, some questions remain unanswered.

The prosecution set out to establish the "who, what, where, when and how" of the case. But as to why the kidnapping happened, Mr Guerin said the prosecution did not have to go into the background or connect the accused by way of "interest or motive" to the history of QIH or Mr Lunney personally.

The prosecution was not concerned with the reason "these things were done to Mr Lunney", he said, although there were references in the evidence to his position in the company and "ongoing litigation".

He accepted the prosecution did not tell the complete story, but said it did not need to.

It appeared the kidnappers were "acting on behalf of others", he simply said, and that the abduction was to "serve the ends of" these unnamed other people.

"There is no doubt what these were – to terrify and intimidate Mr Lunney and to leave him with injuries which would never allow him to forget the ordeal or the purpose it sought to achieve," Mr Guerin said.

Mr Lunney became a familiar face at the Special Criminal Court during the gruelling nine-week trial. He only really needed to be there for a few hours to testify in its first week in June, but he returned day after day to sit in the same room as his tormentors and relive how they had terrorised, battered and disfigured him, as they ordered him, over and over: "You are going to resign."

More than a month after the abduction, a doctor noted marks remained all over his body, including on his chest, where QIH had been engraved, and on his face where he had grown a beard to hide them.

He was not sleeping well and was "fearful of going out in public places".

Two years later, Mr Lunney undoubtedly still bears the scars of his ordeal. But he never did resign.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: StPatsAbu on November 09, 2021, 08:57:35 AM
So why could the guy not be named who was convicted and was responsible for most of the torture?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: The Wedger on November 09, 2021, 09:48:41 AM
Quote from: StPatsAbu on November 09, 2021, 08:57:35 AM
So why could the guy not be named who was convicted and was responsible for most of the torture?

I presume he is going to stand trial for other offences and if he was named his legal team could claim that he will be unable to get a fair trial.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rrhf on November 09, 2021, 12:24:35 PM
or perhaps some form of witness protection scheme...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 09, 2021, 12:32:56 PM
Hopefully those 3 don't see freedom for many a day.
But the organ grinder us still out there.....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: StPatsAbu on November 09, 2021, 09:07:33 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 09, 2021, 12:32:56 PM
Hopefully those 3 don't see freedom for many a day.
But the organ grinder us still out there.....

So you think Ray Manzarek is involved in all this too then?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 09, 2021, 09:39:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....

The arrest of the paymaster is imminent

Who is the paymaster? Quinn?
Do you think Cyril McGuinness was just acting off his own initiative?

I don't know and am genuinely interested.

About 100 pages ago I addressed all that. But basically..

- Lunney and crew were happy to gain from the work of dissident and criminals who were attacking previous owners
- Previous owners left as a result and Lunney group came in. Attacks stopped
- Quinn came into the board and then got booted out
- Some talk of Lunneys gang selling out sections to competition (Quinn would never have done this)
- Attacks restart, Lunney threatened and eventually kipnapped and assaulted.

So whether the dissidents/criminals returned to be seen to protect local jobs and to garner support in the area at a time when they were trying to rebuild or whether others unknown were encouraging them is my best bet. I dont think Sean Quinn was involved in that is my opinion, not sure what his motive would be cos either way he can never get his company back.
Somehow I have strong misgivings about the criminal group having benign motives. If Quinn was not involved, then my guess is extortion was the motive behind the overtly violent harassment. These nasty criminal characters are out to serve themselves.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnnycool on November 10, 2021, 08:47:54 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 09, 2021, 09:39:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....

The arrest of the paymaster is imminent

Who is the paymaster? Quinn?
Do you think Cyril McGuinness was just acting off his own initiative?

I don't know and am genuinely interested.

About 100 pages ago I addressed all that. But basically..

- Lunney and crew were happy to gain from the work of dissident and criminals who were attacking previous owners
- Previous owners left as a result and Lunney group came in. Attacks stopped
- Quinn came into the board and then got booted out
- Some talk of Lunneys gang selling out sections to competition (Quinn would never have done this)
- Attacks restart, Lunney threatened and eventually kipnapped and assaulted.

So whether the dissidents/criminals returned to be seen to protect local jobs and to garner support in the area at a time when they were trying to rebuild or whether others unknown were encouraging them is my best bet. I dont think Sean Quinn was involved in that is my opinion, not sure what his motive would be cos either way he can never get his company back.
Somehow I have strong misgivings about the criminal group having benign motives. If Quinn was not involved, then my guess is extortion was the motive behind the overtly violent harassment. These nasty criminal characters are out to serve themselves.

Was there ever a request for a ransom or money made to Lunney and Co?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on November 10, 2021, 11:01:12 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 10, 2021, 08:47:54 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 09, 2021, 09:39:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....

The arrest of the paymaster is imminent

Who is the paymaster? Quinn?
Do you think Cyril McGuinness was just acting off his own initiative?

I don't know and am genuinely interested.

About 100 pages ago I addressed all that. But basically..

- Lunney and crew were happy to gain from the work of dissident and criminals who were attacking previous owners
- Previous owners left as a result and Lunney group came in. Attacks stopped
- Quinn came into the board and then got booted out
- Some talk of Lunneys gang selling out sections to competition (Quinn would never have done this)
- Attacks restart, Lunney threatened and eventually kipnapped and assaulted.

So whether the dissidents/criminals returned to be seen to protect local jobs and to garner support in the area at a time when they were trying to rebuild or whether others unknown were encouraging them is my best bet. I dont think Sean Quinn was involved in that is my opinion, not sure what his motive would be cos either way he can never get his company back.
Somehow I have strong misgivings about the criminal group having benign motives. If Quinn was not involved, then my guess is extortion was the motive behind the overtly violent harassment. These nasty criminal characters are out to serve themselves.

Was there ever a request for a ransom or money made to Lunney and Co?
Lunney wasn't kidnapped per se. just taken, tortured and then released, that was a message/threat not a kidnapping, therefore no ransom request. that and the history of the violent campaign suggests to me that the gang were attempting to extort cash from Quinn Ins.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnnycool on November 11, 2021, 09:07:09 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 10, 2021, 11:01:12 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on November 10, 2021, 08:47:54 AM
Quote from: Main Street on November 09, 2021, 09:39:58 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:59:20 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:52:16 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 19, 2021, 02:48:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 19, 2021, 02:44:37 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40247582.html

Stiff enough sentence.

Has everything settled down after your man took a heart attack and died? A lot of them ATM robberies have settled as well....

The arrest of the paymaster is imminent

Who is the paymaster? Quinn?
Do you think Cyril McGuinness was just acting off his own initiative?

I don't know and am genuinely interested.

About 100 pages ago I addressed all that. But basically..

- Lunney and crew were happy to gain from the work of dissident and criminals who were attacking previous owners
- Previous owners left as a result and Lunney group came in. Attacks stopped
- Quinn came into the board and then got booted out
- Some talk of Lunneys gang selling out sections to competition (Quinn would never have done this)
- Attacks restart, Lunney threatened and eventually kipnapped and assaulted.

So whether the dissidents/criminals returned to be seen to protect local jobs and to garner support in the area at a time when they were trying to rebuild or whether others unknown were encouraging them is my best bet. I dont think Sean Quinn was involved in that is my opinion, not sure what his motive would be cos either way he can never get his company back.
Somehow I have strong misgivings about the criminal group having benign motives. If Quinn was not involved, then my guess is extortion was the motive behind the overtly violent harassment. These nasty criminal characters are out to serve themselves.

Was there ever a request for a ransom or money made to Lunney and Co?
Lunney wasn't kidnapped per se. just taken, tortured and then released, that was a message/threat not a kidnapping, therefore no ransom request. that and the history of the violent campaign suggests to me that the gang were attempting to extort cash from Quinn Ins.

Hardly any point torturing him, burning equipment and the likes unless you actually ask for the cash.

Seems strange not even asking for any money unless they wanted something else...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on November 11, 2021, 09:16:48 AM
Did they not want him to step down and stop with ongoing legal action both sides of the border?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 20, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
30, 25 and 15 year sentences for the 3 scumbags.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Newbridge Exile on December 20, 2021, 01:33:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 20, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
30, 25 and 15 year sentences for the 3 scumbags.
What is the story with one of them not being able to named ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tyrdub on December 20, 2021, 01:37:30 PM
Quote from: Newbridge Exile on December 20, 2021, 01:33:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 20, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
30, 25 and 15 year sentences for the 3 scumbags.
What is the story with one of them not being able to named ?

Was thinking that myself, was he an informer? Then why is his sentence more severe, don't get it personally
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cavan19 on December 20, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
Quote from: Tyrdub on December 20, 2021, 01:37:30 PM
Quote from: Newbridge Exile on December 20, 2021, 01:33:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 20, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
30, 25 and 15 year sentences for the 3 scumbags.
What is the story with one of them not being able to named ?

Was thinking that myself, was he an informer? Then why is his sentence more severe, don't get it personally

He has a another court case pending.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tyrdub on December 20, 2021, 01:42:15 PM
Quote from: Cavan19 on December 20, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
Quote from: Tyrdub on December 20, 2021, 01:37:30 PM
Quote from: Newbridge Exile on December 20, 2021, 01:33:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 20, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
30, 25 and 15 year sentences for the 3 scumbags.
What is the story with one of them not being able to named ?

Was thinking that myself, was he an informer? Then why is his sentence more severe, don't get it personally

He has a another court case pending.

Ah I see, thanks for the info
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cyril Farrell fan on December 20, 2021, 03:11:02 PM
These three must have been getting serious money from "The Paymaster" to carry out such a torture session.
How stupid were they to think that when a man had been smashed and sliced so badly, it wasn't going to come to the attention of the Gardai?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mouview on December 20, 2021, 03:18:43 PM
Quote from: Cyril Farrell fan on December 20, 2021, 03:11:02 PM
These three must have been getting serious money from "The Paymaster" to carry out such a torture session.
How stupid were they to think that when a man had been smashed and sliced so badly, it wasn't going to come to the attention of the Gardai?

Will any of them squeal on the paymaster or is/was there a cut-out in between? (e.g. 'Dublin Jimmy')
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 20, 2021, 03:20:55 PM
I'd suspect "Dublin Jimmy" was the only contact with "Paymaster".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 20, 2021, 03:29:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 20, 2021, 03:20:55 PM
I'd suspect "Dublin Jimmy" was the only contact with "Paymaster".

Or maybe there was no "Paymaster" given that some of ye on here were saying this famous paymaster would be outed at any moment. Where does local man Luke the Crook fit into your theory? Surely he would have know the "paymaster" too?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 20, 2021, 03:31:43 PM
Itchy doth protest too much methinks.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 20, 2021, 03:36:27 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 20, 2021, 03:31:43 PM
Itchy doth protest too much methinks.

Rossfan, You know nothing at all about this. That's what I know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on December 20, 2021, 04:21:07 PM
Yer man who cant be named - his other case has been going on some while
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 20, 2021, 07:58:14 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on December 20, 2021, 04:21:07 PM
Yer man who cant be named - his other case has been going on some while

He's charged with murder but I don't know its gone to trial yet, don't think that was ever said in any media reports.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on December 20, 2021, 08:54:40 PM
Cheers Itchy. If/when that trial takes place do they disclose he was the guy involved in this case or is it up to someone to do some digging if that makes sense..
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 20, 2021, 09:12:12 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on December 20, 2021, 08:54:40 PM
Cheers Itchy. If/when that trial takes place do they disclose he was the guy involved in this case or is it up to someone to do some digging if that makes sense..

I think once 2nd case is done he can be named. He's not named now cos it might effect his ability to get a fair trial if a jury knew off him. He's a violent sc**bag for sure, he'll be an old man if he ever sees light of day again.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 21, 2021, 12:07:51 AM
Tough sentences which is a good thing, makes me thing about cases in the North where sentences are skit and made worse by 50% remission. Why remission still a thing anyway?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on December 22, 2021, 01:37:51 AM
The judge promised a life sentence for the paymaster in the background  should it be brought to trial and found guilty.
Sounds like he wasn't convinced that these thugs acted  out this violent drama from their own initiative, that they were hired goons. Who could have hired them? Who is that masked paymaster pulling the strings and for what motive?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 22, 2021, 09:12:12 AM
He or she doesn't exist per Cavanman Itchy.
Maybe it's Santa?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Aaron Boone on December 22, 2021, 09:21:02 AM
Quote from: Main Street on December 22, 2021, 01:37:51 AM
The judge promised a life sentence for the paymaster in the background  should it be brought to trial and found guilty.
Sounds like he wasn't convinced that these thugs acted  out this violent drama from their own initiative, that they were hired goons. Who could have hired them? Who is that masked paymaster pulling the strings and for what motive?

Hard to believe lads from East Wall in Dublin would be socially aware about a large firm's ownership  on the Cavan/Fermanagh border.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trueblue1234 on December 22, 2021, 09:26:37 AM
Surely if there was a paymaster one of these lads who are looking at 20-30 years would have sung like a bird to try and reduce the sentence. Giving the incentives I'm sure they were offered to try and find the alleged paymaster, I find it far fetched that none took the opportunity.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: J70 on December 22, 2021, 01:02:36 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on December 22, 2021, 09:26:37 AM
Surely if there was a paymaster one of these lads who are looking at 20-30 years would have sung like a bird to try and reduce the sentence. Giving the incentives I'm sure they were offered to try and find the alleged paymaster, I find it far fetched that none took the opportunity.

Maybe there were a lot of "buffers", a la Godfather II.

Didn't the gangleader die during his arrest? He might have been the one with the knowledge.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 01:07:48 PM
It was said they found a lot of information regarding the paymaster where Dublin Jimmy was staying in England, laptop, phones.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 01:09:55 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 22, 2021, 09:12:12 AM
He or she doesn't exist per Cavanman Itchy.
Maybe it's Santa?

Santa? is about as accurate as everything else you have said on here about this case.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 22, 2021, 01:26:44 PM
Can I presume as a member of a political party that wants to be in Government in 2025 in the 26 that you've given the Authorities all the superior info that you have so as the Judge woukdnt be talking about the "Paymaster"?
Or is there political thuggery afoot?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Armagh18 on December 22, 2021, 02:06:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 22, 2021, 01:26:44 PM
Can I presume as a member of a political party that wants to be in Government in 2025 in the 26 that you've given the Authieities all the superior info that you have so as the Judge woukdnt be talking about the "Paymaster"?
Or is there political thuggery afoot?
Fecking knew it was the Shinners fault!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 03:32:54 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 22, 2021, 01:26:44 PM
Can I presume as a member of a political party that wants to be in Government in 2025 in the 26 that you've given the Authieities all the superior info that you have so as the Judge woukdnt be talking about the "Paymaster"?
Or is there political thuggery afoot?

I am not a member of any political party. Not sure who these "Authieities" are, are they a tribe living up in the mountains behind the cement factory?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trueblue1234 on December 22, 2021, 07:09:27 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 01:07:48 PM
It was said they found a lot of information regarding the paymaster where Dublin Jimmy was staying in England, laptop, phones.

But surely if there was then there would be a case against someone. Has there been any actual evidence about a paymaster other than the say so of an elderly priest?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 07:19:27 PM
They do know, that will be revealed in the new year.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 07:19:27 PM
They do know, that will be revealed in the new year.

We will see then so in the new year
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 08:44:02 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 07:19:27 PM
They do know, that will be revealed in the new year.

We will see then so in the new year

Not sure why you're being smart. It's been said there will be arrests in the new year, which will likely lead to the paymaster,
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 10:10:50 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 08:44:02 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 07:19:27 PM
They do know, that will be revealed in the new year.

We will see then so in the new year

Not sure why you're being smart. It's been said there will be arrests in the new year, which will likely lead to the paymaster,

I'm not being smart. The paymaster bogeyman has been mentioned here for years and his arrest has always been imminent. Its insinuated its Sean quinn or one if his family. I'm still waiting for the big announcement on who it is. Maybe it will come out in the new year but I won't be holding my breath.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trueblue1234 on December 22, 2021, 10:12:20 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 08:44:02 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 07:19:27 PM
They do know, that will be revealed in the new year.

We will see then so in the new year

Not sure why you're being smart. It's been said there will be arrests in the new year, which will likely lead to the paymaster,

This will be good. There seems to be that much innuendo and rumours being thrown about with very little substance. Be good to see it closed out one way or the other.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on January 19, 2022, 09:13:44 AM
The other attacker finally named. Alan Harte from Dublin.

Me neither
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Saffrongael on January 19, 2022, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on January 19, 2022, 09:13:44 AM
The other attacker finally named. Alan Harte from Dublin.

Me neither

It's because he was up on an unrelated murder charge & argued he wouldn't get a fair trial

Career criminal with over 100 convictions. I assume he was a gun for hire for the Lunney abduction
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 29, 2022, 08:58:13 AM
Good show on RTE 1 last night. Continues tonight and tomorrow.

His portfolio of businesses was something to admire. Not just manufacturing, but hospitality and Quinn Insurance. He didn't see anything as a problem.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 29, 2022, 09:07:48 AM
Quote from: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 10:10:50 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 08:44:02 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 07:19:27 PM
They do know, that will be revealed in the new year.

We will see then so in the new year

Not sure why you're being smart. It's been said there will be arrests in the new year, which will likely lead to the paymaster,

I'm not being smart. The paymaster bogeyman has been mentioned here for years and his arrest has always been imminent. Its insinuated its Sean quinn or one if his family. I'm still waiting for the big announcement on who it is. Maybe it will come out in the new year but I won't be holding my breath.

Maybe the imminent paymaster announcement that was going to made last year (with arrests) will be announced in this program?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 29, 2022, 09:09:46 AM
Quote from: Itchy on November 29, 2022, 09:07:48 AM
Quote from: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 10:10:50 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 08:44:02 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 22, 2021, 08:04:27 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on December 22, 2021, 07:19:27 PM
They do know, that will be revealed in the new year.

We will see then so in the new year

Not sure why you're being smart. It's been said there will be arrests in the new year, which will likely lead to the paymaster,

I'm not being smart. The paymaster bogeyman has been mentioned here for years and his arrest has always been imminent. Its insinuated its Sean quinn or one if his family. I'm still waiting for the big announcement on who it is. Maybe it will come out in the new year but I won't be holding my breath.

Maybe the imminent paymaster announcement that was going to made last year (with arrests) will be announced in this program?

People will look at the evidence and draw their own conclusions. Rightly or wrongly.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on November 29, 2022, 04:19:17 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 29, 2022, 08:58:13 AM
Good show on RTE 1 last night. Continues tonight and tomorrow.

His portfolio of businesses was something to admire. Not just manufacturing, but hospitality and Quinn Insurance. He didn't see anything as a problem.
In the insurance game an attitude like that would lead to a financial disaster that people would be paying for, for years.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 04:55:07 PM
We are paying a levy on all Insurance premiums because of Quin  Conboy Insurances.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thewobbler on November 29, 2022, 05:03:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 04:55:07 PM
We are paying a levy on all Insurance premiums because of Quin  Conboy Insurances.

Could you explain why? And if it's still the case, why for so long?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 05:33:15 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: manfromdelmonte on November 29, 2022, 10:32:52 PM
Quinn was basically the biggest gambler in Irish history

And hadn't a clue what he was gambling on
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on November 29, 2022, 10:48:34 PM
If he had never heard of CFDs and stuck with that investment policy of a third on property, a third on shares and a third into the Companies it would have been a very different story.

Even if he hadn't dipped into the Insurance reserves to cover the margins, he would have held onto the group and worked his way out of the debt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trueblue1234 on November 29, 2022, 10:52:11 PM
Or even if he hadn't touched Anglo. It was the perfect storm. Few other investment options could have went as bad.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thewobbler on November 29, 2022, 11:52:15 PM
All I keep thinking about when watching this series:

Homer "You know, Mr. Burns, you're the richest guy I know. Way richer than Lenny."

Monty: "Oh, yes. But I'd trade it all for a little more."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on November 30, 2022, 12:00:51 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on November 29, 2022, 10:52:11 PM
Or even if he hadn't touched Anglo. It was the perfect storm. Few other investment options could have went as bad.

Exactly, not many businesses would have disappeared and borrowing to bet on a business that can disappear was very very unwise.
He divested from the likes of Ryanair shares to do this, he should have held on.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 05:33:15 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:15:12 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 05:33:15 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

1.65b it says in that article. Didn't the government put 2b aside this year for a rainy day? There is an element of Quinn taking on the establishment and they want him to get his comeuppance. Alan Duke oozes a "serves him right" attitude.
David Drumm, Sean Fitzpatrick, Lenehan (completely out of his depth by the way) Cowan and Patrick Neary all needed someone to blame. Quinn didn't burst the country. But he's getting the blame.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Pub Bore on November 30, 2022, 09:29:47 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:15:12 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 05:33:15 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

1.65b it says in that article. Didn't the government put 2b aside this year for a rainy day? There is an element of Quinn taking on the establishment and they want him to get his comeuppance. Alan Duke oozes a "serves him right" attitude.
David Drumm, Sean Fitzpatrick, Lenehan (completely out of his depth by the way) Cowan and Patrick Neary all needed someone to blame. Quinn didn't burst the country. But he's getting the blame.

Drumm did a runner to the US but eventually did couple of years in clink here, I think.  FitzPatrick was another schmoozer but Neary was downright incompetent.

Significant point in the doc last night was when Drumm and Fitzpatrick told Quinn not to buy any more CFDs (and he agreed) and then went right out and bought some more.  I get the impression Quinn thought "Those schmart alecs up in Dublin don't tell Sean Quinn what to do"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:35:56 AM
Quote from: Pub Bore on November 30, 2022, 09:29:47 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:15:12 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 05:33:15 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

1.65b it says in that article. Didn't the government put 2b aside this year for a rainy day? There is an element of Quinn taking on the establishment and they want him to get his comeuppance. Alan Duke oozes a "serves him right" attitude.
David Drumm, Sean Fitzpatrick, Lenehan (completely out of his depth by the way) Cowan and Patrick Neary all needed someone to blame. Quinn didn't burst the country. But he's getting the blame.

Drumm did a runner to the US but eventually did couple of years in clink here, I think.  FitzPatrick was another schmoozer but Neary was downright incompetent.

Significant point in the doc last night was when Drumm and Fitzpatrick told Quinn not to buy any more CFDs (and he agreed) and then went right out and bought some more.  I get the impression Quinn thought "Those schmart alecs up in Dublin don't tell Sean Quinn what to do"

Definitely. No one tells Sean Quinn what to do and that was ultimately his downfall. That tends to be the case with a lot of those types of ultra successful people.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Louther on November 30, 2022, 09:39:31 AM
Quote from: Pub Bore on November 30, 2022, 09:29:47 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:15:12 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 05:33:15 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

1.65b it says in that article. Didn't the government put 2b aside this year for a rainy day? There is an element of Quinn taking on the establishment and they want him to get his comeuppance. Alan Duke oozes a "serves him right" attitude.
David Drumm, Sean Fitzpatrick, Lenehan (completely out of his depth by the way) Cowan and Patrick Neary all needed someone to blame. Quinn didn't burst the country. But he's getting the blame.

Drumm did a runner to the US but eventually did couple of years in clink here, I think.  FitzPatrick was another schmoozer but Neary was downright incompetent.

Significant point in the doc last night was when Drumm and Fitzpatrick told Quinn not to buy any more CFDs (and he agreed) and then went right out and bought some more.  I get the impression Quinn thought "Those schmart alecs up in Dublin don't tell Sean Quinn what to do"

This is the point that a lot of Quinn defenders don't take onboard. They will say that Drumm and Fitzpatrick painted him a rosy picture of the bank and he fell for it.

But there is very little evidence that Quinn was that type of person. He was very much his own man, own decision maker and drove his own agenda. He wanted Anglo as his own bank and was going to show up whoever said he couldn't. He would have totally made his own mind up to chase those CFDs, he still quoting figures about how the bank was performing which was publicly available as a listed company.

His mistake wasn't trying to invest in those CFDs, it was investing in them to own the bank.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Pub Bore on November 30, 2022, 09:50:43 AM
Quote from: Louther on November 30, 2022, 09:39:31 AM
Quote from: Pub Bore on November 30, 2022, 09:29:47 AM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:15:12 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 05:33:15 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

1.65b it says in that article. Didn't the government put 2b aside this year for a rainy day? There is an element of Quinn taking on the establishment and they want him to get his comeuppance. Alan Duke oozes a "serves him right" attitude.
David Drumm, Sean Fitzpatrick, Lenehan (completely out of his depth by the way) Cowan and Patrick Neary all needed someone to blame. Quinn didn't burst the country. But he's getting the blame.

Drumm did a runner to the US but eventually did couple of years in clink here, I think.  FitzPatrick was another schmoozer but Neary was downright incompetent.

Significant point in the doc last night was when Drumm and Fitzpatrick told Quinn not to buy any more CFDs (and he agreed) and then went right out and bought some more.  I get the impression Quinn thought "Those schmart alecs up in Dublin don't tell Sean Quinn what to do"

This is the point that a lot of Quinn defenders don't take onboard. They will say that Drumm and Fitzpatrick painted him a rosy picture of the bank and he fell for it.

But there is very little evidence that Quinn was that type of person. He was very much his own man, own decision maker and drove his own agenda. He wanted Anglo as his own bank and was going to show up whoever said he couldn't. He would have totally made his own mind up to chase those CFDs, he still quoting figures about how the bank was performing which was publicly available as a listed company.

His mistake wasn't trying to invest in those CFDs, it was investing in them to own the bank.

Spot on.  SQ wanted to own a bank.  Probably because in the black and white way he sees life, if you owned a bank you wouldn't have to ask any pink tie wearing twat for a loan, you'd just take the money.

We might get to it in the final episode but there are a couple of follow up questions they should have asked Quinn.  He now admits that he shouldn't have taken the money from the Insurance Co, so why did he do it?  The same with CFDs, he now admits it was wrong to buy more after he had agreed not to, so why did he do it?  And why did he hide the fact that he owned so many CFDs until the last moment?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whitey on November 30, 2022, 11:29:21 AM
Smarter men than Sean Quinn met their Waterloo when dealing with derivative contracts

As someone told me one time, think of "the Granny Rule"

If you can't explain it to your Granny, you shouldn't be buying it!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Smokin Joe on November 30, 2022, 12:00:41 PM
I thought his incredulity displayed last night when he say that McCaffrey and Lunney had agreed to pledge the Insurance company's assets without his knowledge was fairly far fetched.
Seemingly they were having to facilitate SQ borrowing large amounts of money regularly, and presumably at short notice.  The loans were required to shore up his (or his family's) personal investments.  Surely SQ wasn't surprised as to the collateral which may have been required in order to borrow the €2.3bn from Anglo that he borrowed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:03:16 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on November 29, 2022, 10:48:34 PM
If he had never heard of CFDs and stuck with that investment policy of a third on property, a third on shares and a third into the Companies it would have been a very different story.

Even if he hadn't dipped into the Insurance reserves to cover the margins, he would have held onto the group and worked his way out of the debt.

If Sean Quinn the businessman hadn't made the business mistakes that Sean Quinn the businessman made he would have been a better businessman.

Difficult to argue with that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:10:07 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 05:33:15 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

It's a levy on Insurance companies (which obviously they pass on to the insured). Why would they want this continued?

Your bogeyman theory belongs in the WTF thread. Unless you have something to back it up?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on November 30, 2022, 02:22:51 PM
As for the levy....
My guesstimate -
Around 2million motor vehicles insured at average say €750= €1.5Bn. 2% = €30m.
Same for House Insurance .
An awful lot of €60ms in €1.6Bn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 02:36:15 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:10:07 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 08:33:28 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2022, 05:33:15 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-19165286.amp

Do you have the numbers? 2% on all insurance premiums over 10 years seems a lot. From what I can make out with a quick search the govt have allowed the Insurance industry to lobby to continue this, and I can't see any verification of the figures they've provided (even in article you provide the scale of the escalating losses looks sketchy). Looks to me like the intent is a permanent measure with quinn blamed as the bogeyman for as long as posible.


https://www.independent.ie/business/anger-at-sneaky-new-insurance-levy-that-could-place-a-further-toll-on-policy-holders-40875485.html

It's a levy on Insurance companies (which obviously they pass on to the insured). Why would they want this continued?

Your bogeyman theory belongs in the WTF thread. Unless you have something to back it up?

Possibly so, and it sounds as though you know more than me about it. But I'm going by reports I've read. Govt agree to reintroduce levy to cover historic shortfall. In quick order estimated shortfall balloons, as Liberty say they didn't realise how bad things were  ::) . Surely that means Liberty will have benefitted by paying less and passing the difference to the govt i.e. taxpayer?

It has since been sold to Liberty, the fifth largest insurance company in the world, under an agreement that historical shortfalls would be covered by the new levy. The president of the High Court, Nicholas Kearns, asked the expert witnesses on Tuesday why the costs of covering the losses could rise to 1.65bn euro from a previous estimate of 738m euro. He was told it was down to under-provisioning for potential losses in the company before it was sold.

He [Noonan] said he was at a loss as to how such a large underestimation in the potential call on the government's Insurance Compensation Fund could not have been foreseen to a greater extent.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 02:40:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 30, 2022, 02:22:51 PM
As for the levy....
My guesstimate -
Around 2million motor vehicles insured at average say €750= €1.5Bn. 2% = €30m.
Same for House Insurance .
An awful lot of €60ms in €1.6Bn.

All non-life insurance policies I believe? That'd be a lot more than house/car.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on November 30, 2022, 03:04:34 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:03:16 PM

If Sean Quinn the businessman hadn't made the business mistakes that Sean Quinn the businessman made he would have been a better businessman.

Difficult to argue with that.

If Sean Quinn the businessman had continued in business rather than in speculation, then he would be a wealthy man still.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on November 30, 2022, 03:07:35 PM
How much is he and the family still worth now?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on November 30, 2022, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

He also left another gift, 1000s of jobs still in place in the Cavan/Fermanagh area, 100's of families able to put bread on the table and put their kids through school and not have to emigrate or move away to cities. I accept he made a massive mistake and we must all pay for it now but you also need to accept the good that he did too in an area all but abandoned by governments north and south.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on November 30, 2022, 03:43:35 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

Even if this is the case why would the levy have to cover his losses. The economy has recovered beyond expectations and money could easily be taken from a greater tax take to cover this. It is the Irish peoples money after all. The government just chose to burden the people with this levy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on November 30, 2022, 04:24:28 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

Usual debate here - evidenced by ridiculous lines such as that in bold

We have the great chattering masses who have aligned themselves firmly in 2 camps

They either believe that:

a. Sean Quinn was a criminal mastermind and a thief
b. Sean Quinn was akin to God himself

The truth, as ever, is somewhere in between
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Wildweasel74 on November 30, 2022, 04:42:23 PM
He fucked up, lost the run of himself trying to make 5 children billionaires. Jumped into different fields on a whim, hit lucky on most, till shares killed him. The legality of buying shares under various names, firms was his downfall. Big man in Fermanagh but his ego looked to be the size of trump, talking about himself in the 3rd person. Why anybody wants to start buying up half Eastern Europe when they have 3 billion is anyone's guess. Pure Greed finished him in the end. Make alot of money in insurance but seemed to put little aside for major event changing claims. Little sympathy for him to be honest. He alone responsible for his downfall.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trueblue1234 on November 30, 2022, 05:14:03 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 30, 2022, 04:42:23 PM
He fucked up, lost the run of himself trying to make 5 children billionaires. Jumped into different fields on a whim, hit lucky on most, till shares killed him. The legality of buying shares under various names, firms was his downfall. Big man in Fermanagh but his ego looked to be the size of trump, talking about himself in the 3rd person. Why anybody wants to start buying up half Eastern Europe when they have 3 billion is anyone's guess. Pure Greed finished him in the end. Make alot of money in insurance but seemed to put little aside for major event changing claims. Little sympathy for him to be honest. He alone responsible for his downfall.

Cfds are undeclared. He bought via different brokers. Not under different names.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Wildweasel74 on November 30, 2022, 10:42:58 PM
Doubt Quinn fancies himself as a godfather, everything keeps coming bck to poor me, am above the law. Felt bad he lost his firm, all he built up, watching that, he seems to be abit delusional about what happens when you go into administration. Seen a few big companies go South. The wife hardly comes across well.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trueblue1234 on November 30, 2022, 11:18:56 PM
Alan Dukes comes across as an awful smug p***k.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on December 01, 2022, 12:40:17 AM
Reminds me of the Henry Sellers character in Father Ted!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Truth hurts on December 01, 2022, 09:32:39 AM
Quote from: screenexile on December 01, 2022, 12:40:17 AM
Reminds me of the Henry Sellers character in Father Ted!!

Bloody priests, sanctimonious scumbags!  ;) :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: skeog on December 01, 2022, 09:35:24 AM
Poor Mrs Quinn plying the Curate with fine wine and cheese for him to be a backstabber.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: WT4E on December 01, 2022, 10:06:16 AM
Don't know who to blame in this one however the attack on Kevin Lunney is strange.

Surely Quinns would have known this was a step too far and would not benefit them? And as the programme confirms Dublin Jimmy could only have done this for money.

So who paid him? People assume Quinns but who did this attack benefit? It put an end to Quinn support so would there not be a theory that the attack could have been organised by someone on Lunney etc als side?

The priest speech at mass also was a bit much IMO hanging a man who had not been been proved guilty.... a bit unchristian

Ps I'm not a quinn supporter
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on December 01, 2022, 10:17:42 AM
Quote from: NAG1 on November 30, 2022, 03:07:35 PM
How much is he and the family still worth now?
Officially or unofficially?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 01, 2022, 10:21:07 AM
Quote from: WT4E on December 01, 2022, 10:06:16 AM
Don't know who to blame in this one however the attack on Kevin Lunney is strange.

Surely Quinns would have known this was a step too far and would not benefit them? And as the programme confirms Dublin Jimmy could only have done this for money.

So who paid him? People assume Quinns but who did this attack benefit? It put an end to Quinn support so would there not be a theory that the attack could have been organised by someone on Lunney etc als side?



Ah here ffs!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Louther on December 01, 2022, 10:39:49 AM
Quote from: WT4E on December 01, 2022, 10:06:16 AM
Don't know who to blame in this one however the attack on Kevin Lunney is strange.

Surely Quinns would have known this was a step too far and would not benefit them? And as the programme confirms Dublin Jimmy could only have done this for money.

So who paid him? People assume Quinns but who did this attack benefit? It put an end to Quinn support so would there not be a theory that the attack could have been organised by someone on Lunney etc als side?

The priest speech at mass also was a bit much IMO hanging a man who had not been been proved guilty.... a bit unchristian

Ps I'm not a quinn supporter

Is that you Mrs Quinn?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trueblue1234 on December 01, 2022, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: WT4E on December 01, 2022, 10:06:16 AM
Don't know who to blame in this one however the attack on Kevin Lunney is strange.

Surely Quinns would have known this was a step too far and would not benefit them? And as the programme confirms Dublin Jimmy could only have done this for money.

So who paid him? People assume Quinns but who did this attack benefit? It put an end to Quinn support so would there not be a theory that the attack could have been organised by someone on Lunney etc als side?

The priest speech at mass also was a bit much IMO hanging a man who had not been been proved guilty.... a bit unchristian

Ps I'm not a quinn supporter

The show played the video of the lunney attack in the petrol station. Seems strange considering that was nothing to do with Quinn's. That was a personal fued between the lunneys and the McGoverns that has been running a long time. Screams of grasping at straws to try and connect the two. It wasn't just the Quinn's who disliked the lunneys in Fermanagh.

I see Dukes is getting a bad touch on twitter for his comments.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on December 01, 2022, 10:56:10 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on December 01, 2022, 10:41:53 AM
I see Dukes is getting a bad touch on twitter for his comments.

Dukes on RTÉ radio now, getting a hard time.for his comments.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: manfromdelmonte on December 01, 2022, 07:15:44 PM
The priest had a garda armed support unit on patrol in the area for a long time after that sermon
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: upmonaghansayswe on December 01, 2022, 09:59:23 PM
I got lost on the shares and CFDs.

Was he buying CFDs and shares at the same time? I thought the programme said it was cfds and that's why he called in on the marginal thingy.. and as opposed to just losing value he had to pay up as the price fell as it was a bet/gamble. Who were the brokers for actually buying shares then?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on December 01, 2022, 10:11:41 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on December 01, 2022, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: WT4E on December 01, 2022, 10:06:16 AM
Don't know who to blame in this one however the attack on Kevin Lunney is strange.

Surely Quinns would have known this was a step too far and would not benefit them? And as the programme confirms Dublin Jimmy could only have done this for money.

So who paid him? People assume Quinns but who did this attack benefit? It put an end to Quinn support so would there not be a theory that the attack could have been organised by someone on Lunney etc als side?

The priest speech at mass also was a bit much IMO hanging a man who had not been been proved guilty.... a bit unchristian

Ps I'm not a quinn supporter

The show played the video of the lunney attack in the petrol station. Seems strange considering that was nothing to do with Quinn's. That was a personal fued between the lunneys and the McGoverns that has been running a long time. Screams of grasping at straws to try and connect the two. It wasn't just the Quinn's who disliked the lunneys in Fermanagh.

I see Dukes is getting a bad touch on twitter for his comments.
Why do you claim its 'grasping at straws' to connect Quinn to Lunney?  Just because someone else allegedly did not like Quinn, does not mean they would be more motivated, both financially  and vindictively  to do in Lunney .  Quinn is the outstanding character according to the  Occam's razor principle and on the sidelines,  the priest is the privilege holder of a million secrets :)

Quinns quoted comments about Lunney are bizzare.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trueblue1234 on December 01, 2022, 10:28:43 PM
Quote from: Main Street on December 01, 2022, 10:11:41 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on December 01, 2022, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: WT4E on December 01, 2022, 10:06:16 AM
Don't know who to blame in this one however the attack on Kevin Lunney is strange.

Surely Quinns would have known this was a step too far and would not benefit them? And as the programme confirms Dublin Jimmy could only have done this for money.

So who paid him? People assume Quinns but who did this attack benefit? It put an end to Quinn support so would there not be a theory that the attack could have been organised by someone on Lunney etc als side?

The priest speech at mass also was a bit much IMO hanging a man who had not been been proved guilty.... a bit unchristian

Ps I'm not a quinn supporter

The show played the video of the lunney attack in the petrol station. Seems strange considering that was nothing to do with Quinn's. That was a personal fued between the lunneys and the McGoverns that has been running a long time. Screams of grasping at straws to try and connect the two. It wasn't just the Quinn's who disliked the lunneys in Fermanagh.

I see Dukes is getting a bad touch on twitter for his comments.
Why do you claim its 'grasping at straws' to connect Quinn to Lunney?  Just because someone else allegedly did not like Quinn, does not mean they would be more motivated, both financially  and vindictively  to do in Lunney .  Quinn is the outstanding character according to the  Occam's razor principle and on the sidelines,  the priest is the privilege holder of a million secrets :)

Quinns quoted comments about Lunney are bizzare.

Because the fight in the petrol station had zero to do with the rest of programme. It wasn't about intimidation or the Quinns. So its inclusion was an irrelevance. That incident was about a family feud in Kinawley. So it smacked of trying to add more in to suit an agenda.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 01, 2022, 10:35:42 PM
Maybe the auld priest should tell us who the paymaster is. Sure he knows and I presume he got that direct from God. And isn't it great to see a priest throwing out the accusations from the pulpit, just like old times

A few on here know for certain who it is too and be God 12 months ago the paymaster arrest was only days away. Assume this was held off to wait for the show.

Anyway, it seems we are only violent thugs in the border area too. So I suppose civilised people like Alan Dukes and the suits were right never to invest in our area and leave it to crazy murderous thugs like Sean Quinn to do it for us.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on December 02, 2022, 10:07:57 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 01, 2022, 07:15:44 PM
The priest had a garda armed support unit on patrol in the area for a long time after that sermon

The priest is a complete arsehole. The threat he mentioned was a friendly 'watch yourself' in closing an amicable phone call with a respected journalist who was astounded when he realised the priest had relayed it to other media as a threat.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:04:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 01, 2022, 10:35:42 PM
Maybe the auld priest should tell us who the paymaster is. Sure he knows and I presume he got that direct from God. And isn't it great to see a priest throwing out the accusations from the pulpit, just like old times

A few on here know for certain who it is too and be God 12 months ago the paymaster arrest was only days away. Assume this was held off to wait for the show.

Anyway, it seems we are only violent thugs in the border area too. So I suppose civilised people like Alan Dukes and the suits were right never to invest in our area and leave it to crazy murderous thugs like Sean Quinn to do it for us.
Says a lot more about Dukes than it does about border people. Ironic too that the attack was actually organised and carried out by 4 persons not from the border area. Few people on the programme seemed intent on painting people from the border regions as paranoid with chips on their shoulders about neglect, then Dukes turns around and confirms that prejudice with his comments. Ironic and laughable.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:04:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 01, 2022, 10:35:42 PM
Maybe the auld priest should tell us who the paymaster is. Sure he knows and I presume he got that direct from God. And isn't it great to see a priest throwing out the accusations from the pulpit, just like old times

A few on here know for certain who it is too and be God 12 months ago the paymaster arrest was only days away. Assume this was held off to wait for the show.

Anyway, it seems we are only violent thugs in the border area too. So I suppose civilised people like Alan Dukes and the suits were right never to invest in our area and leave it to crazy murderous thugs like Sean Quinn to do it for us.
Says a lot more about Dukes than it does about border people. Ironic too that the attack was actually organised and carried out by 4 persons not from the border area. Few people on the programme seemed intent on painting people from the border regions as paranoid with chips on their shoulders about neglect, then Dukes turns around and confirms that prejudice with his comments. Ironic and laughable.

Well apart from Cyril McGuinness who actually orchestrated the whole thing!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:37:18 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:04:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 01, 2022, 10:35:42 PM
Maybe the auld priest should tell us who the paymaster is. Sure he knows and I presume he got that direct from God. And isn't it great to see a priest throwing out the accusations from the pulpit, just like old times

A few on here know for certain who it is too and be God 12 months ago the paymaster arrest was only days away. Assume this was held off to wait for the show.

Anyway, it seems we are only violent thugs in the border area too. So I suppose civilised people like Alan Dukes and the suits were right never to invest in our area and leave it to crazy murderous thugs like Sean Quinn to do it for us.
Says a lot more about Dukes than it does about border people. Ironic too that the attack was actually organised and carried out by 4 persons not from the border area. Few people on the programme seemed intent on painting people from the border regions as paranoid with chips on their shoulders about neglect, then Dukes turns around and confirms that prejudice with his comments. Ironic and laughable.

Well apart from Cyril McGuinness who actually orchestrated the whole thing!!
Who? Dublin Jimmy?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on December 02, 2022, 03:42:14 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:37:18 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:04:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 01, 2022, 10:35:42 PM
Maybe the auld priest should tell us who the paymaster is. Sure he knows and I presume he got that direct from God. And isn't it great to see a priest throwing out the accusations from the pulpit, just like old times

A few on here know for certain who it is too and be God 12 months ago the paymaster arrest was only days away. Assume this was held off to wait for the show.

Anyway, it seems we are only violent thugs in the border area too. So I suppose civilised people like Alan Dukes and the suits were right never to invest in our area and leave it to crazy murderous thugs like Sean Quinn to do it for us.
Says a lot more about Dukes than it does about border people. Ironic too that the attack was actually organised and carried out by 4 persons not from the border area. Few people on the programme seemed intent on painting people from the border regions as paranoid with chips on their shoulders about neglect, then Dukes turns around and confirms that prejudice with his comments. Ironic and laughable.

Well apart from Cyril McGuinness who actually orchestrated the whole thing!!
Who? Dublin Jimmy?

;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on December 02, 2022, 03:55:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 30, 2022, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

He also left another gift, 1000s of jobs still in place in the Cavan/Fermanagh area, 100's of families able to put bread on the table and put their kids through school and not have to emigrate or move away to cities. I accept he made a massive mistake and we must all pay for it now but you also need to accept the good that he did too in an area all but abandoned by governments north and south.

This is partially true. The jobs in insurance and the hotel were brought to the area. The gravel/sand jobs were always going to be where sand and gravel where. And the glass jobs where always going to be where the raw material was. Someone was always going to extract it and create those jobs. Quinn had head start but I absolutely give him credit for growing it.

I wouldn't have a misty eyed view of how workers where treated. Some treated very well. Others not so.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on December 02, 2022, 03:59:13 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 03:43:35 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

Even if this is the case why would the levy have to cover his losses. The economy has recovered beyond expectations and money could easily be taken from a greater tax take to cover this. It is the Irish peoples money after all. The government just chose to burden the people with this levy.

There is no "even if this is the case" about it. Just reread the article you quote and you will see it is the case.

As for the wider point it's just democracy. Rather than taking the Sean Quinn levy from Irish people depending on whether they need insurance it would be better to take the Sean Quinn levy from Irish people via general taxation based on their ability to pay. Either way the money will continue to have to be raised.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on December 02, 2022, 04:04:01 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 30, 2022, 04:24:28 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

Usual debate here - evidenced by ridiculous lines such as that in bold

We have the great chattering masses who have aligned themselves firmly in 2 camps

They either believe that:

a. Sean Quinn was a criminal mastermind and a thief
b. Sean Quinn was akin to God himself

The truth, as ever, is somewhere in between

This is genuinely hilarious.

The line that you label "ridiculous" happens to be true.

But the really hilarious bit is the accusation that contributors fall into your categories a) or b). Surely you are a spectacular example of the debate suffering from ridiculous lines.

I don't I think I have every seen a contribution that so rapidly commits the offence they have just called out.

Hilarious stuff
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 04:12:33 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 02, 2022, 03:55:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 30, 2022, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

He also left another gift, 1000s of jobs still in place in the Cavan/Fermanagh area, 100's of families able to put bread on the table and put their kids through school and not have to emigrate or move away to cities. I accept he made a massive mistake and we must all pay for it now but you also need to accept the good that he did too in an area all but abandoned by governments north and south.

This is partially true. The jobs in insurance and the hotel were brought to the area. The gravel/sand jobs were always going to be where sand and gravel where. And the glass jobs where always going to be where the raw material was. Someone was always going to extract it and create those jobs. Quinn had head start but I absolutely give him credit for growing it.

I wouldn't have a misty eyed view of how workers where treated. Some treated very well. Others not so.
Absolutely not. Nothing unique about the geology that couldn't have been done in some other area of the country. What was unique was the man with the drive/ambition to take on a cement cartel and actually win.

On the jobs, I remember at the time promises being made that Liberty would not move jobs. Within a year there wasn't an insurance job left in Cavan. And if moving Hotels and Cement Plant was as easy as moving a few books and accounts, none of those other jobs would still be in the region either.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 02, 2022, 04:13:53 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 02, 2022, 03:55:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 30, 2022, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

He also left another gift, 1000s of jobs still in place in the Cavan/Fermanagh area, 100's of families able to put bread on the table and put their kids through school and not have to emigrate or move away to cities. I accept he made a massive mistake and we must all pay for it now but you also need to accept the good that he did too in an area all but abandoned by governments north and south.

This is partially true. The jobs in insurance and the hotel were brought to the area. The gravel/sand jobs were always going to be where sand and gravel where. And the glass jobs where always going to be where the raw material was. Someone was always going to extract it and create those jobs. Quinn had head start but I absolutely give him credit for growing it.

I wouldn't have a misty eyed view of how workers where treated. Some treated very well. Others not so.

I have read some shite on this forum on here but f**k me this takes the biscuit. So where ever there happens to be sand and gravel these factories and jobs just spring up. You clearly have no clue what is involved in starting a manufacturing business or growing it. Do you even know this area of Ireland. There is a McCaffrey quarry up the road but I must have missed his 2 cement factories and glass factory. Stop making a fool out of yourself lad.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:37:18 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:04:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 01, 2022, 10:35:42 PM
Maybe the auld priest should tell us who the paymaster is. Sure he knows and I presume he got that direct from God. And isn't it great to see a priest throwing out the accusations from the pulpit, just like old times

A few on here know for certain who it is too and be God 12 months ago the paymaster arrest was only days away. Assume this was held off to wait for the show.

Anyway, it seems we are only violent thugs in the border area too. So I suppose civilised people like Alan Dukes and the suits were right never to invest in our area and leave it to crazy murderous thugs like Sean Quinn to do it for us.
Says a lot more about Dukes than it does about border people. Ironic too that the attack was actually organised and carried out by 4 persons not from the border area. Few people on the programme seemed intent on painting people from the border regions as paranoid with chips on their shoulders about neglect, then Dukes turns around and confirms that prejudice with his comments. Ironic and laughable.

Well apart from Cyril McGuinness who actually orchestrated the whole thing!!
Who? Dublin Jimmy?

Yeah the guy from Derrylin who didn't like that name, if you believe Quinn!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thewobbler on December 02, 2022, 04:29:43 PM
Was going to post something similar Itchy.

Dislike a man all you want. But anyone  trying to discredit the ingenuity, belief, and relentlessness required to build any successful manufacturing company - let alone the biggest on the island - well they just learn to listen more and speak less.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on December 02, 2022, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 02, 2022, 04:04:01 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 30, 2022, 04:24:28 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

Usual debate here - evidenced by ridiculous lines such as that in bold

We have the great chattering masses who have aligned themselves firmly in 2 camps

They either believe that:

a. Sean Quinn was a criminal mastermind and a thief
b. Sean Quinn was akin to God himself

The truth, as ever, is somewhere in between

This is genuinely hilarious.

The line that you label "ridiculous" happens to be true.

But the really hilarious bit is the accusation that contributors fall into your categories a) or b). Surely you are a spectacular example of the debate suffering from ridiculous lines.

I don't I think I have every seen a contribution that so rapidly commits the offence they have just called out.

Hilarious stuff

Not all contributors

Just the great chattering masses as I think I put it

Given your absolute drivel about huge manufacturing companies appearing naturally, simply because there happens to be raw materials for said in the ground beneath them, I think you've planted yourself firmly in that category

When coming out with statements like this it may be best for your own credibility if you did a little less chattering
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on December 02, 2022, 05:06:32 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:37:18 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:04:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 01, 2022, 10:35:42 PM
Maybe the auld priest should tell us who the paymaster is. Sure he knows and I presume he got that direct from God. And isn't it great to see a priest throwing out the accusations from the pulpit, just like old times

A few on here know for certain who it is too and be God 12 months ago the paymaster arrest was only days away. Assume this was held off to wait for the show.

Anyway, it seems we are only violent thugs in the border area too. So I suppose civilised people like Alan Dukes and the suits were right never to invest in our area and leave it to crazy murderous thugs like Sean Quinn to do it for us.
Says a lot more about Dukes than it does about border people. Ironic too that the attack was actually organised and carried out by 4 persons not from the border area. Few people on the programme seemed intent on painting people from the border regions as paranoid with chips on their shoulders about neglect, then Dukes turns around and confirms that prejudice with his comments. Ironic and laughable.

Well apart from Cyril McGuinness who actually orchestrated the whole thing!!
Who? Dublin Jimmy?

Yeah the guy from Derrylin who didn't like that name, if you believe Quinn!

He was born and reared in Swords ye eejit
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 05:21:29 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:37:18 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:04:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 01, 2022, 10:35:42 PM
Maybe the auld priest should tell us who the paymaster is. Sure he knows and I presume he got that direct from God. And isn't it great to see a priest throwing out the accusations from the pulpit, just like old times

A few on here know for certain who it is too and be God 12 months ago the paymaster arrest was only days away. Assume this was held off to wait for the show.

Anyway, it seems we are only violent thugs in the border area too. So I suppose civilised people like Alan Dukes and the suits were right never to invest in our area and leave it to crazy murderous thugs like Sean Quinn to do it for us.
Says a lot more about Dukes than it does about border people. Ironic too that the attack was actually organised and carried out by 4 persons not from the border area. Few people on the programme seemed intent on painting people from the border regions as paranoid with chips on their shoulders about neglect, then Dukes turns around and confirms that prejudice with his comments. Ironic and laughable.

Well apart from Cyril McGuinness who actually orchestrated the whole thing!!
Who? Dublin Jimmy?

Yeah the guy from Derrylin who didn't like that name, if you believe Quinn!
Born and bred in Dublin, was an accomplished criminal and well known to Gardai before moving to Derrylin. Lived in England for a time too.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 06:32:40 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 02, 2022, 05:06:32 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:37:18 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:04:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 01, 2022, 10:35:42 PM
Maybe the auld priest should tell us who the paymaster is. Sure he knows and I presume he got that direct from God. And isn't it great to see a priest throwing out the accusations from the pulpit, just like old times

A few on here know for certain who it is too and be God 12 months ago the paymaster arrest was only days away. Assume this was held off to wait for the show.

Anyway, it seems we are only violent thugs in the border area too. So I suppose civilised people like Alan Dukes and the suits were right never to invest in our area and leave it to crazy murderous thugs like Sean Quinn to do it for us.
Says a lot more about Dukes than it does about border people. Ironic too that the attack was actually organised and carried out by 4 persons not from the border area. Few people on the programme seemed intent on painting people from the border regions as paranoid with chips on their shoulders about neglect, then Dukes turns around and confirms that prejudice with his comments. Ironic and laughable.

Well apart from Cyril McGuinness who actually orchestrated the whole thing!!
Who? Dublin Jimmy?

Yeah the guy from Derrylin who didn't like that name, if you believe Quinn!

He was born and reared in Swords ye eejit

And lived in Derrylin. We know this because Quinn told us! Told us everyone there knew him! Ya clown!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 06:45:03 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 06:32:40 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 02, 2022, 05:06:32 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:37:18 PM
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on December 02, 2022, 02:27:53 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 02:04:11 PM
Quote from: Itchy on December 01, 2022, 10:35:42 PM
Maybe the auld priest should tell us who the paymaster is. Sure he knows and I presume he got that direct from God. And isn't it great to see a priest throwing out the accusations from the pulpit, just like old times

A few on here know for certain who it is too and be God 12 months ago the paymaster arrest was only days away. Assume this was held off to wait for the show.

Anyway, it seems we are only violent thugs in the border area too. So I suppose civilised people like Alan Dukes and the suits were right never to invest in our area and leave it to crazy murderous thugs like Sean Quinn to do it for us.
Says a lot more about Dukes than it does about border people. Ironic too that the attack was actually organised and carried out by 4 persons not from the border area. Few people on the programme seemed intent on painting people from the border regions as paranoid with chips on their shoulders about neglect, then Dukes turns around and confirms that prejudice with his comments. Ironic and laughable.

Well apart from Cyril McGuinness who actually orchestrated the whole thing!!
Who? Dublin Jimmy?

Yeah the guy from Derrylin who didn't like that name, if you believe Quinn!

He was born and reared in Swords ye eejit

And lived in Derrylin. We know this because Quinn told us! Told us everyone there knew him! Ya clown!
Again, born and bred in Dublin. Dukes said it's in our blood. So it's down to breeding my dear boy. Victorian age should call and look for their bigot back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on December 02, 2022, 10:05:43 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on December 01, 2022, 10:28:43 PM
Quote from: Main Street on December 01, 2022, 10:11:41 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on December 01, 2022, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: WT4E on December 01, 2022, 10:06:16 AM
Don't know who to blame in this one however the attack on Kevin Lunney is strange.

Surely Quinns would have known this was a step too far and would not benefit them? And as the programme confirms Dublin Jimmy could only have done this for money.

So who paid him? People assume Quinns but who did this attack benefit? It put an end to Quinn support so would there not be a theory that the attack could have been organised by someone on Lunney etc als side?

The priest speech at mass also was a bit much IMO hanging a man who had not been been proved guilty.... a bit unchristian

Ps I'm not a quinn supporter

The show played the video of the lunney attack in the petrol station. Seems strange considering that was nothing to do with Quinn's. That was a personal fued between the lunneys and the McGoverns that has been running a long time. Screams of grasping at straws to try and connect the two. It wasn't just the Quinn's who disliked the lunneys in Fermanagh.

I see Dukes is getting a bad touch on twitter for his comments.
Why do you claim its 'grasping at straws' to connect Quinn to Lunney?  Just because someone else allegedly did not like Quinn, does not mean they would be more motivated, both financially  and vindictively  to do in Lunney .  Quinn is the outstanding character according to the  Occam's razor principle and on the sidelines,  the priest is the privilege holder of a million secrets :)

Quinns quoted comments about Lunney are bizzare.

Because the fight in the petrol station had zero to do with the rest of programme. It wasn't about intimidation or the Quinns. So its inclusion was an irrelevance. That incident was about a family feud in Kinawley. So it smacked of trying to add more in to suit an agenda.
Fair enough, I haven't watched the program so I had totally missed the context of your comment.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: smelmoth on December 11, 2022, 09:35:29 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 04:12:33 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 02, 2022, 03:55:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 30, 2022, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

He also left another gift, 1000s of jobs still in place in the Cavan/Fermanagh area, 100's of families able to put bread on the table and put their kids through school and not have to emigrate or move away to cities. I accept he made a massive mistake and we must all pay for it now but you also need to accept the good that he did too in an area all but abandoned by governments north and south.

This is partially true. The jobs in insurance and the hotel were brought to the area. The gravel/sand jobs were always going to be where sand and gravel where. And the glass jobs where always going to be where the raw material was. Someone was always going to extract it and create those jobs. Quinn had head start but I absolutely give him credit for growing it.

I wouldn't have a misty eyed view of how workers where treated. Some treated very well. Others not so.
Absolutely not. Nothing unique about the geology that couldn't have been done in some other area of the country. What was unique was the man with the drive/ambition to take on a cement cartel and actually win.

On the jobs, I remember at the time promises being made that Liberty would not move jobs. Within a year there wasn't an insurance job left in Cavan. And if moving Hotels and Cement Plant was as easy as moving a few books and accounts, none of those other jobs would still be in the region either.

Sorry, are you saying there are economical viable aggregate deposits everywhere?

And I did say he brought the insurance jobs to the area.

I am drawing a distinction between what had to be or least made sense to do in the area and those jobs be brought to the area.

I am neither slavishly praising the man nor ignoring the good that he did do. Nor am ignoring his undoing of part of it and the wider consequences of that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on December 11, 2022, 02:49:51 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 11, 2022, 09:35:29 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 04:12:33 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 02, 2022, 03:55:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 30, 2022, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

He also left another gift, 1000s of jobs still in place in the Cavan/Fermanagh area, 100's of families able to put bread on the table and put their kids through school and not have to emigrate or move away to cities. I accept he made a massive mistake and we must all pay for it now but you also need to accept the good that he did too in an area all but abandoned by governments north and south.

This is partially true. The jobs in insurance and the hotel were brought to the area. The gravel/sand jobs were always going to be where sand and gravel where. And the glass jobs where always going to be where the raw material was. Someone was always going to extract it and create those jobs. Quinn had head start but I absolutely give him credit for growing it.

I wouldn't have a misty eyed view of how workers where treated. Some treated very well. Others not so.
Absolutely not. Nothing unique about the geology that couldn't have been done in some other area of the country. What was unique was the man with the drive/ambition to take on a cement cartel and actually win.

On the jobs, I remember at the time promises being made that Liberty would not move jobs. Within a year there wasn't an insurance job left in Cavan. And if moving Hotels and Cement Plant was as easy as moving a few books and accounts, none of those other jobs would still be in the region either.

Sorry, are you saying there are economical viable aggregate deposits everywhere?

And I did say he brought the insurance jobs to the area.

I am drawing a distinction between what had to be or least made sense to do in the area and those jobs be brought to the area.

I am neither slavishly praising the man nor ignoring the good that he did do. Nor am ignoring his undoing of part of it and the wider consequences of that.

Pretty much every province has the limestone/gravel deposits that Quinn exploited in Fermanagh. Mid Tyrone has arguably quarried as much as Quinn in Fermanagh but no-one there created a multi billion business model. To suggest that it was inevitable that a glass factory would be built in ballyconnel is incorrect.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on December 12, 2022, 11:31:34 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 11, 2022, 09:35:29 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on December 02, 2022, 04:12:33 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on December 02, 2022, 03:55:46 PM
Quote from: Itchy on November 30, 2022, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 02:00:03 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 01:28:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on November 30, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on November 30, 2022, 09:28:56 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 30, 2022, 09:24:34 AM
The 1.65bn is what they are saying it 'could' rise to - which Noonan himself thought that was dodgy going by that article - I meant though what 2% on each insurance premium comes to over 10 years. I would have thought even those estimates would be rightly covered by now

Yeah I agree with you. The 2% levy is bound to have covered the loss at this point.

Any numbers?


June 21

However, since 2010 the amount collected under these specific stamp duties is c.€1.6 billion
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98 (https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-06-02/98/#pq-answers-98)

If I was you I would read that article again.It differentiates between the levy and the stamp duty. You appear to be extracting an answer about the stamp duty to provide information about the levy.

Quinn's lasting gift to Irish society is the levy. The stamp duty is a separate debate

He also left another gift, 1000s of jobs still in place in the Cavan/Fermanagh area, 100's of families able to put bread on the table and put their kids through school and not have to emigrate or move away to cities. I accept he made a massive mistake and we must all pay for it now but you also need to accept the good that he did too in an area all but abandoned by governments north and south.

This is partially true. The jobs in insurance and the hotel were brought to the area. The gravel/sand jobs were always going to be where sand and gravel where. And the glass jobs where always going to be where the raw material was. Someone was always going to extract it and create those jobs. Quinn had head start but I absolutely give him credit for growing it.

I wouldn't have a misty eyed view of how workers where treated. Some treated very well. Others not so.
Absolutely not. Nothing unique about the geology that couldn't have been done in some other area of the country. What was unique was the man with the drive/ambition to take on a cement cartel and actually win.

On the jobs, I remember at the time promises being made that Liberty would not move jobs. Within a year there wasn't an insurance job left in Cavan. And if moving Hotels and Cement Plant was as easy as moving a few books and accounts, none of those other jobs would still be in the region either.

Sorry, are you saying there are economical viable aggregate deposits everywhere?

And I did say he brought the insurance jobs to the area.

I am drawing a distinction between what had to be or least made sense to do in the area and those jobs be brought to the area.

I am neither slavishly praising the man nor ignoring the good that he did do. Nor am ignoring his undoing of part of it and the wider consequences of that.

This whole debate started when you asserted that Quinn's legacy to Ireland is the 2% levy on insurance policies.

Given that businesses he created STILL employ thousands of people in the border area, that sounds a lot like ignoring the good to me

You've since backtracked a bit on that, but to say that the those businesses were merely an automatic by-product of the materials in the ground below is patently nonsense

Things that Quinn dug out of the ground;
Stone
Sand

Things that Quinn built multi-million euro businesses to create
Blocks
Cement
Precast Concrete
Glass
Insulation
Insurance policies
Hotel rooms
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 12, 2022, 02:05:03 PM
Like Bertie Ahern Quinn did a lot of good in his earlier days.
However you're only as good as your last game so both are on the baddy list now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal Maguire on December 30, 2022, 01:57:28 PM
Is QuinnBet a reincarnation?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on December 30, 2022, 07:57:20 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on December 30, 2022, 01:57:28 PM
Is QuinnBet a reincarnation?

It is like Quinn Insurance, you give Quinn money and he bets it on unusual financial instruments.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on December 30, 2022, 07:58:44 PM
Started about three years ago by son Sean Jr, and doing well in a very competitive industry. Paid shareholder dividends last year of £1.7m, not too shabby!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bannside on December 31, 2022, 11:45:11 AM
Actually Quinnbet is 6 years old, how time flies.

Just finished reading Trevor Birneys "Quinn". A fascinating read from start to finish. Anyone else read it..thoughts or feedback?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LC on December 31, 2022, 01:23:18 PM
I presume it is the book version of the documentary that was on a few weeks ago?

Really enjoyed the documentary, very well made and very informative.

Can not but help have a lot of admiration of what he had achieved up until the whole Anglo thing.   

However when he was given an opportunity to come back into the business thereafter he could not accept he had to take a back seat, lost sympathy for him at this point.  Nobody else would ever have got such an opportunity of being allowed back into a business that they had almost ran into the ground.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on December 31, 2022, 02:29:21 PM
Quote from: LC on December 31, 2022, 01:23:18 PM
I presume it is the book version of the documentary that was on a few weeks ago?

Really enjoyed the documentary, very well made and very informative.

Can not but help have a lot of admiration of what he had achieved up until the whole Anglo thing.   

However when he was given an opportunity to come back into the business thereafter he could not accept he had to take a back seat, lost sympathy for him at this point.  Nobody else would ever have got such an opportunity of being allowed back into a business that they had almost ran into the ground.

I lost sympathy for him long before that. . . trying to put the assets beyond the state was the point I lost the sympathy for him!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 31, 2022, 02:40:45 PM
And we in thev  26 will be paying for him for many a year >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 31, 2022, 03:08:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 31, 2022, 02:40:45 PM
And we in thev  26 will be paying for him for many a year >:(

How much are you personally paying for him each year?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rossfan on December 31, 2022, 03:57:54 PM
At least € 40 for Insurance and a debt of €400.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal Maguire on December 31, 2022, 04:33:38 PM
Alan Dukes shafted him. He showed his true colours in the documentary. He never should have been allowed anywhere near NAMA
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on December 31, 2022, 04:53:11 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on December 31, 2022, 04:33:38 PM
Alan Dukes shafted him. He showed his true colours in the documentary. He never should have been allowed anywhere near NAMA

I don't think anypone shafted Quinn only himself.
Dukes' job was to get as much money as possible to save the imposition on the taxpayers, all of whom bar a handful were poorer than Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on December 31, 2022, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 31, 2022, 03:57:54 PM
At least € 40 for Insurance and a debt of €400.

I understood it to be. 2% levy so if you pay 40 euro that would mean you are paying in the region of 2000 euro annually in insurance?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: balladmaker on December 31, 2022, 07:26:41 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on December 31, 2022, 04:33:38 PM
Alan Dukes shafted him. He showed his true colours in the documentary. He never should have been allowed anywhere near NAMA

I've no idea what Alan Duke's background is outside of politics, but I'm assuming he did not have any business know-how anywhere near the same as Sean Quinn, not many had.  Quinn's point on the doc was interesting i.e. give me a few years and I'd have made it all back and paid any debts that were owed ... no idea why that was not given more consideration at the time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on December 31, 2022, 07:34:46 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 31, 2022, 07:26:41 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on December 31, 2022, 04:33:38 PM
Alan Dukes shafted him. He showed his true colours in the documentary. He never should have been allowed anywhere near NAMA

I've no idea what Alan Duke's background is outside of politics, but I'm assuming he did not have any business know-how anywhere near the same as Sean Quinn, not many had.  Quinn's point on the doc was interesting i.e. give me a few years and I'd have made it all back and paid any debts that were owed ... no idea why that was not given more consideration at the time.

Quinn was looting the insurance company which rather underminded his credibility. If he had been completely up front then perhaps Dukes would have taken a chance on him making the money back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thewobbler on December 31, 2022, 07:39:14 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 31, 2022, 07:26:41 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on December 31, 2022, 04:33:38 PM
Alan Dukes shafted him. He showed his true colours in the documentary. He never should have been allowed anywhere near NAMA

I've no idea what Alan Duke's background is outside of politics, but I'm assuming he did not have any business know-how anywhere near the same as Sean Quinn, not many had.  Quinn's point on the doc was interesting i.e. give me a few years and I'd have made it all back and paid any debts that were owed ... no idea why that was not given more consideration at the time.

Should there maybe be a key learning that one man/family should not have the legal capacity to build such an extraordinary level of business interests?  It seems the only potential outcomes in such cases are high end gambling and/or a repugnantly narcissistic desire to accumulate everyone else's wealth.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: qwerty123 on January 01, 2023, 12:33:21 PM
I missed the documentary on RTÉ and i don't think it's on the player anymore. Is there any way of viewing it now?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: fearbrags on January 01, 2023, 05:03:10 PM
Ihttps://www.reddit.com/r/teilifis/comments/z7rva6/quinn_country_episode_1_rte_one_monday_28th/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 01, 2023, 08:31:15 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 31, 2022, 07:26:41 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on December 31, 2022, 04:33:38 PM
Alan Dukes shafted him. He showed his true colours in the documentary. He never should have been allowed anywhere near NAMA

I've no idea what Alan Duke's background is outside of politics, but I'm assuming he did not have any business know-how anywhere near the same as Sean Quinn, not many had.  Quinn's point on the doc was interesting i.e. give me a few years and I'd have made it all back and paid any debts that were owed ... no idea why that was not given more consideration at the time.
Dukes on an.economist.

Quinn didn't have 'business lnow how'. That is the problem.

On what planet was he going to be allowed continue gamble other peoples money chasing a mental poaition based soely on his gut?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on September 10, 2023, 02:33:09 PM
See Sean has a book out.

Also decided to do an interview with journalist. Safe to say it didn't go well lol
Independent or Bel Tel I believe
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jim Bob on September 10, 2023, 02:53:49 PM
'You're just talking s***': Breathtaking rudeness of Seán Quinn


The former billionaire's new book tells his side of events at his former firms. He wanted to talk, but not to journalist Maeve Sheehan. Even so, he relented, invited her into his lakeside home — then told her what he thought about her
After multiple interviews, an RTÉ documentary called Quinn Country, plus a follow-up book by Trevor Birney, the documentary's director, Seán Quinn has published the story he says the media refused to publish: Seán Quinn, In My Own Words.
With a book to promote, his publisher contacted the Sunday Independent offering the first interview with the former billionaire from Derrylin, Co Fermanagh.
Editor Alan English assigned the interview to this reporter. I have covered the Quinn story often, but word came back that Quinn believed previous articles I had written "had a negative tone". There was a suggestion that sending a different journalist "would create a more comfortable atmosphere for the interview".
The editor declined to swap me for someone else, on the principle that authors promoting books ought not to have a veto over the interviewer.
I did not expect Seán Quinn to change his mind — a decision he had clearly regretted by the time we arrived at the gates of his mansion in Ballyconnell, Co Cavan, on Thursday morning.
He emerged from a side door, smiling and extending a hand to the journalist and the photographer standing in his courtyard by a glistening lake in the blinding sun.
But his words quickly belied his actions.
When I acknowledged that he would have preferred another journalist there, he replied with gusto. I had written "lies" about him for 10 years, the Sunday Independent should not have sent me, and I shouldn't be there. He expected us to be gone in 10 minutes.
And we hadn't even crossed the threshold.
With that unhappy opener, we went inside, hoping the mood would soften. And at times it did, in between him twice calling the interview to a halt, showering me with insults and having a set-to with photo- grapher Mark Condren — a veteran of conflict zones who, as he says himself, "takes no shit".
"The temperature is a little high," Quinn joked at the outset, as he settled into his chair at the head of the kitchen table. He wasn't talking about the mercury hitting 27 degrees.
His new book seemed the safest place to begin. He wrote it because "the media wouldn't tell my story, so I had to tell it myself".
The Quinn Country documentary broadcast by RTÉ last year, and the biography Quinn by documentary director Trevor Birney, were both "pure shite" and "unbelievable stuff" he said. Nevertheless, he liberally quotes from Birney's book in his own memoir, while RTÉ said the landmark documentary series was fair to everyone, including Quinn.
Getting his own account out there, helped by a sister and a daughter, has been a "relief".
"Yeah, I feel relaxed with the book. Yeah. I feel actually it's done and it's another... probably one of the faint chapters in my life. So I'm glad it's over and done and I'm pleased with it," he said.
Writing it every day made him realise "what had been done to me and what they'd taken from me. And when you start putting it [together], bit by bit, every day, every day, every day, you just say to yourself, 'Holy f**k'".

The story of self-made billionaire Quinn has never been more comprehensively told. He is the man who turned a sand and gravel pit into a global empire operating from the neglected Border counties; the man who gambled on Anglo Irish Bank shares and lost, triggering events that led to Quinn and his family being ousted from his empire in 2011.
His first-person account includes details of his humble childhood, a loving chapter on his wife and children, snippets about his admiration for people such as Adi Roche and Peter McVerry, his encounters with Dermot Desmond, the "honourable" financier who called Quinn "the man they couldn't hang", the "charming" former US president Barack Obama.
Much of the book charts his account of how Anglo Irish Bank, the regulators and the State worked to have the Quinns removed from their businesses.
Quinn writes that the "stage was set" for his destruction after he disclosed to Anglo Irish Bank bosses in 2007 that he controlled 25pc of the bank's shareholding through contracts for difference (CFDs) as the bank's share price tumbled. To stop him selling, flooding the market and destabilising the bank, Anglo lent him the money to pay the margin calls.
"If they had not injected the money illegally into their own shares, we would have had no option but to sell the CFDs," he writes. And Anglo was "determined" not to let him sell, and wanted the Quinns out of the group to stop them suing over "illegal loans".
He is scathing about his former management team who now run his old businesses and who, he says, hung him out to dry.
His "biggest misjudgments" were appointing Liam McCaffrey CEO and Dara O'Reilly financial director to the Quinn Group. Among other things, he accuses McCaffrey of taking €500,000 from a Quinn Group company to cover his own losses in CFDs. (One source said he legitimately borrowed €50,000 and paid it back in full.)
He sets out the regulatory breaches at Quinn Insurance — which in 2019 led to a Central Bank inquiry and ultimate settlement with McCaffrey and Kevin Lunney (another of his former executives). The Central Bank discontinued its investigation into Quinn and called him as a witness.
He writes that Kevin Lunney's abduction "insulated" the directors from unfavourable comment, saying: "They were the darlings of the media, and boy, did they milk it."
Sitting at his kitchen table, Quinn was happy to talk about the transactions and betrayals on the road to his downfall. But he seemed less happy being questioned on it.
When I asked if he continued to invest in CFDs after disclosing his bombshell to Anglo, he asked me to stop "cross-examining" him about his account.
"Everything in the book is accurate," he said.
Asked if he is a person who blames others, he said: "I am not big into the blame game. No, I don't believe in it. I believe that people of character do not try to put blame on to somebody else."
For his part, Quinn said he accepts blame for investing in Anglo CFDs and "that's it".
The conversation stuttered on before landing on another unexpected trigger. His memoir refers to the hurt he feels every day at the "power" he gave his former executives.
I asked him to describe the hurt he felt, if he could sleep at night, if it consumed him?
He replied: "I'm not going into it any more. In fact, I think I'll stop the interview, because I was trying to be sociable. I have written the book. You have been very uncomplimentary to me for 10 years. I've forgiven all that. And I've tried to work with you, and you are just going on and on and on."
He didn't stop. He just continued to berate me, accusing me of "belitt- ling" him during our last interview (in November 2021) and asking why I hadn't published criminal allegations made against him by John McCartin, a former Fine Gael councillor who is a director of Mannok, along with Lunney, McCaffrey and O'Reilly
At a loss, I eventually asked him what he wanted me to ask him about.
He didn't want me to ask him anything at all, because I was not the "appropriate person" to interview him about the book.
"I made that clear. They insisted on doing it. So I can't see how you could come along and ask me questions."
He was only warming up.
"Most people, most people including my own family say, 'What in the name of God are you letting that bitch into this house for?'
"I said, 'Look, I'll talk to her. I respect everybody and she's a proud, respectable woman in a lot of ways. But she has done me a lot of damage and she doesn't understand what happened'."
His rudeness was breathtaking, like a car crash unfolding.
The mood darkened further when I asked a question about the Anglo deal that converted Quinn's CFDs to shares that were bought in the name of his wife and five children. The transaction was insisted upon by the bank. Quinn says it was implemented without "any meeting or discussion" with his family.
He had gone to London, where he got legal advice that the action was "totally illegal", he said.
I asked if he told his children then what was happening? Did they know what was happening, what was being done in their name?
"I'm going to stop this interview because you're just talking shit now. You read the f**king book and now you're talking shit to me. So, there's no point in going any further," he said.
He was now angry.
"You shouldn't be here, because you're a critic of mine. You're not a balanced person."
He called "an end to the discussion" and rose to his feet.
Photographer Condren had yet to take a picture. Quinn gave him "three minutes" to take one outside.
"Let me set it up then," said Mark.
"You going to mess me about again?" said Quinn.
"No, I'm setting up a light, Seán."
"You had the f**king last hour to set it up."
After a bit of back and forth, Condren tried to reason with him.
"Listen, Seán, listen. I'm a photographer. I have nothing to do with this, right? I'm a simple photographer. OK? Trying to do a photograph, trying to do my job, right? So, if you have a problem with that, I've no problem leaving."
"All right. Leave," said Quinn.
Condren challenged him again, and Quinn now deflected his behaviour on to me.
"Do you not feel there is an aggressor here?" Quinn asked Condren.
"Who is the aggressor, Seán?" I asked.
"You."
"Do you feel I have been aggressive in my questioning?"
"Yes. Yes. Yes."
Quinn eventually agreed to the photo. "Well, if you do it quick."
Condren said later that when they went outside, he told Quinn he didn't care who he was, he wasn't going to take that behaviour from anyone. He said Quinn apologised and shook his hand.
Quinn later referred to their contretemps as a "test".
He resumed his insults when he came back inside. I invited him to read from the written statement in his notebook. With minimal encouragement, he sat back down at his kitchen table and began to read.
"I believe the appointment of the administrator to Quinn Insurance was wrong. I believe the appointment of a share receiver [to the Quinn Group] was illegal because it was based on illegal loans," he read.
"And I believe that the deal that was hatched between the management in Quinn in 2014 and the bondholders was also illegal. And the fact that there has been tens of millions of pounds of reported fraud since then that hasn't been investigated by the gardai, I feel that is totally wrong.
"I believe that Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan knew that the loans were illegal, and they knew they couldn't put in the share receiver and they had to wait. They were a barrister and a solicitor [by profession]. And it had to wait for two teachers, [Enda] Kenny and [Michael] Noonan, that they put in the share receiver."
He said Leo Varadkar was "best friends with John McCartin... and had slept in his house and attended a meeting in the packaging factory".

There is nothing to be gained from reporting on the many other slights and put-downs that poured out of Quinn's mouth over the two hours of interview. There is no pleasure in reporting any of it.
His behaviour came to dominate the interview to the extent that not to report on it would be an unfair reflection of what happened.
In fairness to him, and as he made abundantly clear, he believes I have written unfair and untrue things about him, and he did not want me there in the first place.
In fairness to me, I was assigned to the job and was happy to do it. I have written sympathetically about Kevin Lunney and his colleagues following his abduction and torture. The journalism Quinn complained bitterly about is on record. He never did specify what "lies" I told.
At the outset, I suggested to Quinn that we take a different approach.
"Like?" he asked.
"No antagonism," I said.
And there were periods when he spoke to me without hostility, mostly about his family, his grandchildren and the people who have supported him in his community, his many achievements.
His family are glad he has written the book, he said. They "know that everything in the book is true, they know that I'm right to tell the people that are supportive of me the truth — which they haven't got from you, or the media, or the courts".
Quinn said he was happier last week than he had been at any time over the last 10 years, now he has told the story he says the media wouldn't tell. He didn't write it for "people like me", he said ("It's just beyond belief the sort of individual you are," he added). It's for his supporters, so they can know they were on the right side all along.
"I would like the people in this area to know that I'm not a cheat, I'm not a gangster, I'm not a fraudster. I never stole anything that didn't belong to me. I want people to understand that and know that," he said.
He does not agree that tensions have eased. He said the "level of hatred" is so high that "those individuals can only go into certain shops in certain places", he added.
He met Tony Lunney, Kevin's brother, on the morning of the interview.
"There was no salute."
He was once very fond of both, but believes forgiveness is not on him.
"I'll take a lead from Fr O'Reilly. So whenever he moves, I move," he said, referring to the priest who condemned the unnamed "paymaster" behind the attack on Kevin Lunney.
Quinn is launching the book with his family on Thursday in the Slieve Russell, the hotel he built next door that he hopes will return to Quinn ownership. He has not set foot in the hotel for eight or nine years, but chose it because it is a "Quinn venue".
The fraught interview ended amiably enough. Quinn got to his feet. He extended his hand, and I shook it. I told him then that the repeated personal insults he threw at me were offensive and rude. He looked at me, but he didn't say anything.
I had already turned away when his hand shot out for the second time. I took it, I suppose instinctively, thinking it might be a conciliatory gesture.
"What's this for?" I asked.
His response made no sense to me. "I forgot the first time," he said, with a laugh.

'Seán Quinn: In My Own Words' is published by Red Stripe Press and is out now
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on September 10, 2023, 03:10:12 PM
Nice one Jim Bob
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on September 10, 2023, 11:03:57 PM
Such a sound fella Sean why do so many dislike him?? 🤔
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on September 10, 2023, 11:13:26 PM
I don't know the ins and outs of the history between Quinn and interviewer but she does work for the Sunday Indo so good chance he is right.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gallsman on September 11, 2023, 08:04:36 AM
A truly horrible bastard.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on September 11, 2023, 08:39:01 AM

I didn't know this :

"To stop him selling, flooding the market and destabilising the bank, Anglo lent him the money to pay the margin calls"

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TabClear on September 11, 2023, 09:41:30 AM
Quote from: seafoid on September 11, 2023, 08:39:01 AM

I didn't know this :

"To stop him selling, flooding the market and destabilising the bank, Anglo lent him the money to pay the margin calls"

I think thats been the argument, that Anglo took actions to prop up the price and that without this when the share price went against him initially he would have closed out the CFDs, taken the hit of a few hundred million   ::) and moved on. The issue was that transactions involving this volume of shares would have negatively impacted the share price further which is why Anglo bosses took steps to avoid this happening. By staying in longer the scale of his losses grew exponetially as the share price fell further.

Above all caveated by its my hazy memory of the news reports, could be completely wrong. In any case,  I assume that if Quinn Group had decided to take the hit, either before Anglo got involved or by telling them that it was not interested in the plan they pulled together they could have done so. It would have been catastrophic for Anglo and a massive financial hit for QG to close out the CFDs but the Group would have survived. They chose to go along with the Anglo plan and the most likely assumption is that this was to try to reduce Group losses. The legality actions of Anglo/Receivers etc after this I think is a separate conversation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on September 11, 2023, 10:57:43 AM
Quote from: seafoid on September 11, 2023, 08:39:01 AM

I didn't know this :

"To stop him selling, flooding the market and destabilising the bank, Anglo lent him the money to pay the margin calls"

This was the crux of his argument. But he was told to stop buying CFDs but continued to do so.
Sean Quinn thought he was God, he could do no wrong and for manys a year that was true, but then he was faced with the reality that he wasn't God.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: LeoMc on September 11, 2023, 02:52:41 PM
Quote from: trailer on September 11, 2023, 10:57:43 AM
Quote from: seafoid on September 11, 2023, 08:39:01 AM

I didn't know this :

"To stop him selling, flooding the market and destabilising the bank, Anglo lent him the money to pay the margin calls"

This was the crux of his argument. But he was told to stop buying CFDs but continued to do so.
Sean Quinn thought he was God, he could do no wrong and for manys a year that was true, but then he was faced with the reality that he wasn't God.

There is an element of giving the Gambler more credit to try to recoup his losses about this.

Neither the gambler nor the casino come out of it too well.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Pub Bore on September 11, 2023, 04:52:23 PM
He bet the farm on a horse, was given the chance to cash out halfway through the race, didn't do so, fell 4 out from home and he's now blaming the horse, jockey, trainer, stable lad, the bookies, journalists, the local priest, the fella standing beside him at course and anyone else he can think of...apart from the obvious.  Deeply unpleasant individual.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: marty34 on September 11, 2023, 06:38:49 PM
If he didn't like the journalist, why did he agree to meet her?

He could have called it off at the last minute.

And why did he go to the Indo anyway, if they wrote lies about his, as he says? Why not just go to a rival newspaper?

All a bit strange.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnnycool on September 12, 2023, 07:47:45 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on September 11, 2023, 02:52:41 PM
Quote from: trailer on September 11, 2023, 10:57:43 AM
Quote from: seafoid on September 11, 2023, 08:39:01 AM

I didn't know this :

"To stop him selling, flooding the market and destabilising the bank, Anglo lent him the money to pay the margin calls"

This was the crux of his argument. But he was told to stop buying CFDs but continued to do so.
Sean Quinn thought he was God, he could do no wrong and for manys a year that was true, but then he was faced with the reality that he wasn't God.

There is an element of giving the Gambler more credit to try to recoup his losses about this.

Neither the gambler nor the casino come out of it too well.

The tax payer bailed both out though.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on September 12, 2023, 08:05:39 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on September 12, 2023, 07:47:45 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on September 11, 2023, 02:52:41 PM
Quote from: trailer on September 11, 2023, 10:57:43 AM
Quote from: seafoid on September 11, 2023, 08:39:01 AM

I didn't know this :

"To stop him selling, flooding the market and destabilising the bank, Anglo lent him the money to pay the margin calls"

This was the crux of his argument. But he was told to stop buying CFDs but continued to do so.
Sean Quinn thought he was God, he could do no wrong and for manys a year that was true, but then he was faced with the reality that he wasn't God.

There is an element of giving the Gambler more credit to try to recoup his losses about this.

Neither the gambler nor the casino come out of it too well.

The tax payer bailed both out though.
Not exactly. Neither Quinn nor Anglo got anything. The taxpayer bailed out the bondholders.
There are loads of Sean Quinns in the making now. There is going to be another crash to fix inflation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hereiam on September 12, 2023, 10:30:16 AM
Heard a bit of his interview on GMU this morning, the fact he claimed in the interview that he is back to being a poor man has made me say "piss off Sean".
Does he really think people are that thick, every man & dog knows that the Quinns are still a wealthy family.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Wildweasel74 on September 12, 2023, 11:08:32 AM
Comes across as very unlikeable, the poor me, when it was all self inflicted, even when he was told to stop buying shares. Blame everybody but himself, especially when they hid millions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on September 14, 2023, 10:34:42 PM
Heroic reception back at the Slieve Russell tonight - Fermanagh Herald
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Aaron Boone on September 14, 2023, 11:33:51 PM
Even if Sean is a workaholic who will never retire, age is against him now he's 75. 

The company he built up is gone from him.

He will have that nagging unhappiness for the rest of his days.

It probably doesn't feel real the cause of his downfall but it's there in the books & records. And that's what the law of the land uses. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trailer on September 15, 2023, 08:35:23 AM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on September 14, 2023, 10:34:42 PM
Heroic reception back at the Slieve Russell tonight - Fermanagh Herald

Some reception. God like

Quote from: Aaron Boone on September 14, 2023, 11:33:51 PM
Even if Sean is a workaholic who will never retire, age is against him now he's 75. 

The company he built up is gone from him.

He will have that nagging unhappiness for the rest of his days.

It probably doesn't feel real the cause of his downfall but it's there in the books & records. And that's what the law of the land uses. 

He'll never be back, it just looks like he wants to have his say and I suppose he feels if he does that then that is what people will remember. In Ballyconnell and Derrylin maybe, but further a field he's man who gambled it all.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Pub Bore on September 15, 2023, 12:06:20 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on September 14, 2023, 10:34:42 PM
Heroic reception back at the Slieve Russell tonight - Fermanagh Herald

"Heroic" - FFS. It's what a Scientology meeting would look like in Cavan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Itchy on September 15, 2023, 03:28:57 PM
Quote from: Pub Bore on September 15, 2023, 12:06:20 PM
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on September 14, 2023, 10:34:42 PM
Heroic reception back at the Slieve Russell tonight - Fermanagh Herald

"Heroic" - FFS. It's what a Scientology meeting would look like in Cavan.

I can see where you got your name from.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on September 15, 2023, 03:31:41 PM
what would he be worth now?
I know he said he was a poor man now, but that would likely be stretching it.

He is bound to have had some sort of funds stashed away somewhere?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on September 15, 2023, 09:33:57 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on September 15, 2023, 03:31:41 PM
what would he be worth now?
I know he said he was a poor man now, but that would likely be stretching it.

He is bound to have had some sort of funds stashed away somewhere?
With his patronage and looking after people in a disadvantaged area (Fermanagh, Itchy) , he always struck me as more like a chieftain than a CEO.