Antrim Football Thread

[lynchbhoy]

Cavlan was not a member of the All Ireland Winning under-age teams. He was well over age at that stage!!

this is just from memory - but was cavlan not a minor in 1993 , and then on the u21 side in 96?

[loughshore lad]

Cavlan was not a member of the All Ireland Winning under-age teams. He was well over age at that stage!!

this is just from memory - but was cavlan not a minor in 1993 , and then on the u21 side in 96?

Thats correct LB.  Cavlan was a minor in 93.  That team didnt win the AI as they were tanked by Meath in the AI semi-final.  The minor team of 97-98 that produced so many that went on to win senior medals was in a different league talent wise.  Both teams were managed by Harte.

[tyrone86]

Max, Bellaghy dont win much at juvenile level, but that dosent stop them producing decent senior teams!

Also, just because we havent actually WON silverware at juvenile - u-21 level, dosent mean that there werent some seriously good results/performances along the way. Do I need to go into a bit more detail on this to justify this?

My model/template is still Fermanagh.

Did Mickey Culberts team not play them off the pitch in Enniskillen a few years ago. Still a mystery how we lost that one.

But Fermanagh football gets lit up by a top class management team of O Rourke/McBride, and in their first year get within one point of a first ever Anglo-Celt. You can bet your life Fermanagh will be stronger this year for that experience.

Whats more, O Rourke gets total support, backing and approval for a whole list of pre conditions, designed to allow Fermanagh a level playing field in terms of proper preparation on a Tyrone/Armagh scale.

What did we get?

A manager totally un-proven and out of his depth at this level, and a county chairman who didnt/dosent buy in to Antrim Football at all.
And still dosent.

We get what we deserve gentlemen. We are last in Ulster because we havent the mindset to think any different. Its time to change that.

This generation will take us to a higher level than ever before, if they are treated properly. And I dont mean at Eaton Park, or with self installed floodlights at Woodlands. Or with u-21 managers who dont give a toss. Or a Chairman who cant see this.

Ah, but to go back to an earlier debate on this thread, St Michael's Enniskillen have been consistently challenging at MacRory level since 1999. Ergo, they have some level of tradition and success which has been able to be carried forward. Jesus, when a chancer like Mulgrew can take them to an All-Ireland Semi Final there has to be some degree of ability there.

However, another point that has to be looked at, how many of the Antrim Minors of 97/98 - both of which got to Ulster Finals against the best Minor teams to ever come out of Tyrone - are still playing at county level now, the time at which they would be expected to be in their peak?

[bannside]

A few quick facts which might assist those who clearly dont have sufficient knowledge of the new emerging and confident players that are presenting themselves for duty at senior level.

Take the 1985`s. Now mostly aged 23.

As sixteen year olds they had a fantastic season, in a very competitive Buncrana cup. They beat Down by 2, Armagh by 14 (away) Monaghan by 2 (away) and a semi final victory against Raymund Munroes Tyrone, by 11 (away). Lost to Derry in the final. Most of those Derry players won all ireland minor medals in due course.

When this year group became available for u-21 a few years later, I had the priviledge of linking up with them again. Quite a few of them were prominent when Antrim lost to Armagh, in Crossmaglen, by three points.

Armagh beat Derry by 14 in that years Ulster final, and went on to win the All Ireland u-21 crown. We gave them one of their closest matches. I will let you decide if the missing Paul Doherty, Michael Magill, or Karl Stewart could have made up the shortcoming that year.

Two years later, with the 1985`s in their final year, a big push was on to go all the way. We beat Fermanagh by 12 in the first round. our next match is away to Tyrone. Nepotism and sheer in-competence (thats another story) permit Crozier and CJ (as ITG correctly pointed out) to miss an Ulster semi final which was most winnable.

We lose by 2, and Tyrone lift Ulster but narrowly lose their semi final by a point in extra time.

I will let you decide whether or not this year group was good enough, or not, at full strength to go all the way, and win that seasons All Ireland. I have absolutely no doubt they were. More importantly, the players knew it as well.

(Obviously the Doctor wasnt reading it right either or he would have insisted on CJ and Croziers availability). How good would that have been to sell Saffron Sweep tickets?

That year group includes Mc Clean, Mc Cann, Cunningham, and Niblock from last years seniors. Now to great to see Carey, Mc Alernon and Conor Mc Goldrick step up, as well as big Mc Glinchey.

Now if this group had won an all -ireland, we would be talking about them forever being as being the bedrock of Antrim football for years. But they were robbed by poor leadership, and by now their exploits at under-age level have almost been forgotten.

We should be thinking of entering into a golden era for Antrim Football, and in the next two/three years we should be in a very healthy position. Think St Galls and Kilmacud etc, and its plain we have the ability to get to a much higher level.

But we must give this generation, and its management every available resource.

Annual rant over!

[bannside]

Culchie11, an answer to your question re all county juvenile leagues.

I would be completely open to the idea, on a one year trial basis.

I think above all else our juveniles need proper meaningful matches. How else can St Johns great u-14 hurling or football teams from last year progress, unless they get quality matches on a regular basis? And I think there some class acts on that team.  Likewise last years Leamh Deargs U -16`s. Some class acts all over the pitch. Further evidence Antrim are starting to produce top quality individuals.

We have a duty to harness this properly. How can some of these players train properly in the knowledge that their next game will be called off, the other team dosent turn up, the pitch is unavailable, the referee forgets about it, or their is the obligatory free for all.

Im all for Quality over Quantity. Get the best eight teams into each all county division - not an exact science, I accept - and let them have fourteen decent quality meaningful games, at least.

Versus the three or four probable quality/meaningful matches they might otherwise get.

With conditions though.

Proper individual registration cards, birth certificate baked, to stamp out any foul play.

Up front league entry fees to be paid by all teams.

Code of conduct signed off by all clubs and players, and especially over zealous win at all cost managers. ( I had a very nasty experience at this years all county og sport final ).

Financial penalties to all clubs who dont field on time.

A sub committee of three or four independent observers who attend matches to make sure the experiment works.

In short, the idea has potential to work, or potential for disaster - depending on how it is sold to/entered into by the clubs, and how it is policed. Discipline must be the key, and thats why  South-West leagues are so strong.

But only on a trial basis. It cant be used as a cop out for South Antrim administrators who up to now have failed miserably to put their house in order.

[Glensman]

Agree with Bannside. His optimism is something that should be instilled in the players. Feck the begrudgers and give it a good rattle this year.

Had considered going through the teamsheet with thoughts etc but too busy!

A bite more steel in the full back line required (though I agree that McVeigh had a good game this was mainly when Clarke was out as a third midfielder)
With the guile of Sean Kelly to come in, Loughrey, McCann, Cunnigham, Crozier and maybe CJ to come back, there is a bit of hope.
Mick McCann is a super player. In my opinion if he was that 10% more direct he would be top notch. But a great player nonetheless.
Agree about McAleese, he'll get beaten round the park but if he bulks up slowly but he may have alot to offer.
Edwards looks a strong addition and if Hasson can be worked on he certainly looks dangerous. Hasson does have great speed on the ball and with a few finishers round him he could do rightly.

Think Antrim's problem on Sunday was in the final straight, which is the perennial problem.
They had a free to go ahead at one point, missed that free and from there Armagh banged over 4 points.
Then when chasing the game if they had taken their points they wouldn't have been too far away.
A bit of self-belief and balls to be instilled by Bradley etc and perhaps cuteness from Conway.

No one can deny that it wasn't a bad start.
Onwards!

[lynchbhoy]

another example of teams not winning but providing the 'bedrock' from an example clost to my own exp was the kildare minor side of 87.
That team , much was expected of - as the prev years side won leinster and were narrowly beaten in ai semi final by eventual winners down.
There were players such as Lynch, Doyle, Finn, Gilroy, Quinn, Donlan who went on to the kildare senior panel and were mostly all stalwarts as the county in 1998 got to its first AI final for a long time and were unluckily beaten by galway.

they were there or thereabouts for a couple of years, long before the back door came into play and allowed the fluke type teams such as wexford and fermanagh to progress to semi and quarter finals

another example of a manager(ODwyer) making a silk purse out of a sows ear which is becoming more and more or a requirement these days - contrary to what max thinks.

[culchie11]

some good points bannside!
i think it will benefit south antrim more as south west already have good structures and leagues in place.
its not an easy one, as it has been tried before as winter league for minors & didnt do well!!
i agree its not fair to hold back the south antrim teams who it could benefit, but the others who wont field after half a season are the ones who will wreck it!!

sure didnt st endas try to join north antrim and south west last year!!

[bannside]

Aye Culchie 11. St Endas won SW u -12 league at the first time of asking, but got beaten in all county final by St Johns.

Need to get regular matches of quality to compete with very well organised juvenile soccer leagues, South Belfast and Lisburn Invitational youth leagues.

Traditionally we lose a lot of Belfast juveniles at in these formative years, because it is considered that soccer leagues are properly and consistently organised. Time for Gaelic Games to show these lads, often the better types, that we can run a good show as well.

[haranguerer]

Only read last few threads, so apologies if restating/missing points made.

My model/template is still Fermanagh.

Did Mickey Culberts team not play them off the pitch in Enniskillen a few years ago. Still a mystery how we lost that one.

But Fermanagh football gets lit up by a top class management team of O Rourke/McBride, and in their first year get within one point of a first ever Anglo-Celt. You can bet your life Fermanagh will be stronger this year for that experience.

Whats more, O Rourke gets total support, backing and approval for a whole list of pre conditions, designed to allow Fermanagh a level playing field in terms of proper preparation on a Tyrone/Armagh scale.

Fermanagh were knocking on the door for a long time before o rourke came in. It was the next step in their progression, but its fallacy to suggest they made massive gains last year.

Antrim could have won that game in Enniskillen, but it wasn't that much of a great escape, and the awful conditions contributed to it being tight. Its exactly the type of game fermanagh were playing against bigger opposition and losing 10 yrs ago. It been a long road for fermanagh, from all ireland bs in the mid 90s, and putting up strong opposition to good teams (taking eventual ulster champions to a replay in 1997 i think it was), and doing it consistently, then getting wins in the qualifiers, notably a few against meath, and against mayo - big teams. This was all while doing well in the league, dom got fermanagh to both a league semi and a ai quarter in 2003, then we had 2004 ai semi, then position pretty much maintained since then. O rourke has brought progress, but its been a long road, and the support from the county board is more forthcoming because of the success we have had in the past few yrs.

The big thing for any team, and Antrim in particular is to get pride in the county - its massivley detrimental when its all over the papers that players aren't turning out for what ever reason - devalues the jersey.

St Micks enniskillen have been having macrory success for a good while, and this has filtered through to contribute to fermanaghs senior success, but parallell fermanagh minors with antrim seniors. St micks enniskillen is the most prestigious underage team in fermanagh, to the detriment of the county minors, which have very limited success. yet the county minors has available the same players. The county minors always play second fiddle.
St Galls anyone?

[ONeill]

Derrys minor win in 89 yielded just two on the senior AI winning 93 side.... hardly compelling evidence
Donegal had nothing to draw from...Likewise dublin....

What drugs are you on? The Derry side of 93 had Coleman, Tohill, Burns and Heaney from '89. They also had minor All-Ireland winners in McGurk, McNicholl and Cassidy from '83. I'm sure the Derry side that lost the All-Ireland U21 side of '85 had a few contributors too.

Donegal had nothing to draw on? Try 80s All-Ireland U21 medlaists McGowan, Gallagher, Reid, Gavigan, Doherty, Molloy, McMullan, McHugh, Boyle and Cunningham. The minor side of '85 won Ulster.

As usual, plenty to say about nothing!

[ONeill]

another example of teams not winning but providing the 'bedrock' from an example clost to my own exp was the kildare minor side of 87.

More nonsense. The 87 side won Leinster minor, as did the '91 side.

[lynchbhoy]

Derrys minor win in 89 yielded just two on the senior AI winning 93 side.... hardly compelling evidence
Donegal had nothing to draw from...Likewise dublin....

What drugs are you on? The Derry side of 93 had Coleman, Tohill, Burns and Heaney from '89. They also had minor All-Ireland winners in McGurk, McNicholl and Cassidy from '83. I'm sure the Derry side that lost the All-Ireland U21 side of '85 had a few contributors too.

Donegal had nothing to draw on? Try 80s All-Ireland U21 medlaists McGowan, Gallagher, Reid, Gavigan, Doherty, Molloy, McMullan, McHugh, Boyle and Cunningham. The minor side of '85 won Ulster.

As usual, plenty to say about nothing!

think you will see that I was out by one on how many the Derry minor side provided for the AI final win.
Burns - as much as I like the lad was peripheral at best to that team.

I'll give you donegal, but the Dublin example still stands...


as for the kildare example - there were hardly any of the 87 minor side that graduated to the kildare senior team (a strange team as many of that side didnt even figure at senior level for their clubs - captain fintain buckley and midfielder james findleybeing prime examples)
so you are wrong regarding kildare's u18 side in 87 and also in what the later u21 side prvided o the side thereafter.

but as per usual in your haste to try to discredit myself you overlook everything else!
Its prob that lack of attention to detail that will keep you down at teaching level rather than makin in in the real world !


you obv don even understand the point that a good manager can create a very good side in a sports scenario - Martin oneill at Celtic and now villa, mickey harte at tyrone, mick odwyer at kildare and laois
Obv you need some great players in your side for this to work, its not often a team of complete mediocre players will win through.
It happens though, the formation and style instilled by the manager is the key.
Plenty of highly skilled sides dont win All Irelands. Or provincial championships. Its the same effect in reverse.
Thats all I am saying.
antrim have enough talent to certainly compete in Ulster and have an outside shot at a championship. Maybe not win it (yet) but certainly be ten times better than recent years.

[imtommygunn]

antrim have enough talent to certainly compete in Ulster and have an outside shot at a championship. Maybe not win it (yet) but certainly be ten times better than recent years.

I firmly believe the ten times better part. Winning an ulster in 2 years is crazy talk.

[ONeill]

think you will see that I was out by one on how many the Derry minor side provided for the AI final win.
Burns - as much as I like the lad was peripheral at best to that team.

as for the kildare example - there were hardly any of the 87 minor side that graduated to the kildare senior team (a strange team as many of that side didnt even figure at senior level for their clubs - captain fintain buckley and midfielder james findleybeing prime examples)
so you are wrong regarding kildare's u18 side in 87 and also in what the later u21 side prvided o the side thereafter.

So, you were wrong about the Derry '93 side (of which half were All-Ireland minor winners). You were wrong about Kildare winning nothing in '87, when they plainly did. By the way, Kildare didn't win much more than that in '98 so not exactly a successful side.

O'Neill didn't have a better record than Strachen or the doctor. He was also managing a side that has one team as viable opposition.
Harte was in charge of winners at every level, including club.
O'Dwyer's Kildare had minor winners from two Leinster campaigns in the previous 10 years.
Laois under O'Dwyer followed the Leinster winning minors of 96, 97 and 98 including 2 All-Ireland titles.

Good managers can add an extra edge but very few sides win big honours with no underage success beforehand.