Search for New Mayo Manager

[Il Bomber Destro]

"I don't agree with player power in terms of ousting managers. That is where a county board has to look at themselves and make sure they get the right people in. You've seen it in Mayo and you've seen it in Cork where they haven't got the right people in. I'm sure the lads had their reasons for coming out and speaking but this is damaging.''

Tomás O Sé  on Homellygate.

Like me Tomás clearly lays the mess at the door of the county board. With H&C they clearly failed to get the right people in and everything else is like the aftershocks after a megathrust earthquake. This is not revisionism on my part. At the time I called it a cosy, cobbled together management that stank of sharp practice and nepotism. It did not sit well with some at the time.
While I do have sympathy for their undoubted distress of being rejected they surely went into the gig with their eyes open and knowing their position was compromised from the start. How could they not know - unless they have egos that surpass those of the players they complain about.
When it became clear that the players had no confidence in them H&C should have gone quickly and quietly. The board executive should have pointed them in that direction instead of trying to browbeat the players into some kind of negotiation. The vote of no confidence was the end. There is no way back when management loses the dressing room. Since then we've seen Anthony Cunningham trying to hold on as well. Years ago we had Gerald McCarty trying to beat back the waves.
If things had been handled sensibly there would have been no player letter. And if anything the players were sticking it to the CB as much as to H&C. Their demands for input in new management appointment clearly indicates they did not trust the board to 'get the right people in' - and for good reason. The CB could easily have gone back to John Maughan if it was up to them. Mayo CBs have a terrible record of getting the right people in. They've got it wrong most of the time in my time.

Or maybe the Mayo and Cork squads were a bunch of precious egotists that put way too much value in their influence.

Or maybe not. Maybe some managers are precious egoists that put way too much value in their influence. People say Mayo did no better in 2016 but they did no worse without H&C either. Considering the dysfunctional environment they've been operating in last 2 years, - created by the CB - it is surprising that Mayo did as well last 2 years as they did.
A bit rich H&C sticking the knife in about these Mayo players not winning an AI when they were important players in a team that butchered 2 finals themselves. 3 if you count a replay.
The CB stumbled on James Horan as manager - actually they wanted Tommy Lyons until they realised that there was no appetite for another old stock manager in the county.

Lyons favourite to get Mayo job
Fri, Sep 24, 2010, 01:00

Tommy Lyons has been installed as the firm favourite to become the new Mayo football manager after John Maughan withdrew from the race to succeed John O'Mahony.
Irish Times.

After Horan quit they made a monumental f**k-up of replacing him. Basically going back to the politburo.

No better, no worse?

Why change?

Why did the players want change?

There doesn't seem to have been any real tangible positive or negative impact of it on the results side. We all know the change was driven by the players, so it clearly was not for footballing reasons and that in itself speaks volumes of the preciousness of a certain group of Mayo players who were exercising personal agendas because of the slights they felt or their egos not being massaged.

That is the bottom line and the fact that no Mayo poster on here has yet been willing to accept that the players were exercising personal grievances rather than footballing ones is strange.

Do you put any credence into the rumour that one managerial candidate was rejected by the players due to them having an issue with a guy he wanted to bring into the backroom team? If true what would that tell you about the players?

Hold on. It was the county board that came out with the 'rumour' that some players did not want McHale. I suspect, in the light of what happened after, that the board was justifying their position of not seriously considering the McStay option and blackening his package. McStay was unwise to comment on that at the time but he probably did not fully realise the lengths that the board would go to get their way.

I don t accept that the player's had personal grievances against H&C. The botched appointment would not have made any grievance personal. As far as I know Mayo players were not lobbying for anybody in particular to replace Horan. They're wasn t exactly a queue of outstanding candidates. H&C got their shot. The players just didn't think they were up to it and I suspect they had good reasons for thinking that way - as usual we'll have to wait for a few more years for the reasons. The fact that they didn't win AI next year is irrelevant. Changing managers doesn't mean that you will win an AI. In case you haven't noticed a lot of teams want to win the AI and usually there is 3 or 4 teams that can do so in any given year. Losing a replay by a point  is hardly disgraceful. They were 100% correct not to go along with a management they did not believe in.

But that simply does not stack up with the results and performances of Mayo in 2015 in contrast to those in 2011-2014 and 2016.

Again, from a pragmatic, objective outlook there is nothing there to suggest that they got rid of Holmes and Connelly for footballing reasons. Holmes and Connelly, who as we all know were driven out by the players have came out a year later and have quite clearly made it clear that they believe a group of players had grievances with them over issues such as not letting them partake in tv shows, selection decisions involving themselves, their club mates and their family members, criticism of their bottle which they did not take well etc. That's one side of the story and it definitely points as non footballing reasons, seemingly dismissed out of hand by most Mayo men on here, on the basis of nothing other than subjective, rosy tinted views of their squad's integrity seemingly.

On the other side of the story is the Mayo squad "we want you gone, not up for negotiation, we're not giving you the reasons".

There's only one side of the story that has any weight of integrity to it that we have hear and it certainly isn't the version put forward from the Mayo players.

How much do you expect the performances to vary from year to year if the same players are involved. It shows that they play to a high level consistently.

As regards the grievances in Brehony article. Seems to me that they were what H&C believed were the grievances that instigated the push. The players haven t said what their grievances and maybe that spares H&C a bit.  I don't believe for a minute that those petty anecdotes were the real reasons for the player unrest. We ll find out the real reasons eventually, we always do. By then of course it will be old news. But I suspect that there were footballing reasons at the root of it.

Anyway why does this bother you so much? Or, others. Surely it is in other counties interest that Mayo are messing about with one of their better teams!

There has hardly been a queue for H&C to manage other teams since Holmes' first mediocre stint as Mayo manager 13 years ago or after they won an AI U21 in 2006. That puzzles me. Neutrals seem to think they were Clough and Taylor as regards Mayo but ...........

Is that an admission that the grievances had little bearing on the results and performances on the football pitch? They do play to a high level consistently but under different managers have come up consistently short, from a results/performances perspective Holmes and Connelly did as well and previous and subsequent management teams yet the players ousted them? Why?

The answer to that on one side is that certain players egos weren't indulged by management who felt it would be in their needs to give their focus to football and not their brand image or management decisions. Is there a contention to what H&C said regarding the O'Sheas or is it accepted that O'Shea was annoyed at not being allowed appear on the TV show and also that they questioned and tried to influence selection decisions?

In a similar situation, what would you have though Jim McGuinness reaction to Michael Murphy going away to film a TV show in early season would have been? I doubt he'd have been pleased and I'd imagine he'd have told Murphy it's either football or that. It's different when Mayo are still chasing that elusive goal and players are fannying about in that regard like O'Shea. There he was this year just after orchestrating a campaign to remove management and rather than being at home with his team early season, he is swanning about over in the US making a TV show. Do you believe that is conducive to him wanting the highest standard possible?

There's a section in the Mayo dressing room that would seem to be a big danger to a management team, players should never have any say in which players get selected and if they do, or if they feel they should and are indulged in doing so, it seriously undermines a dressing room.

You also have, as was reported anyway, that Keegan and Andy Moran, probably your two best leaders, voting in favour of the management team. From my outside looking in viewpoint and with the information available, it looks like there was a clique of players who had personal grievances with the management team and lobbied others to remove it. I wonder how many of the players were disenchanted with the management team before being approached, I wonder how many players felt pressurised into doing so, one player who voted for the heave recently came out and admitted they were out of order. But none of these things seem to matter as certain people had chosen to back the players wholeheartedly, irrespective of the information.

[muppet]

Maughan maybe but Horan hardly started from zero when Mayo had won a Connacht senior title 2 years before he arrived were division 1 team and had Ger Cafferkey,Donal Vaughan, Tom Cunniffe, Kevin McLoughlin;Aidan O Shea,Seamus O'Shea etc that had already sampled championship football.

Ah, come on!! Zero is losing to Sligo and Longford in the one Summer. That is no slight on those counties either, but doubt if either were playing in top2 divisions at the time. And it was championship ffs. Sligo had us beaten 20 mins. out and Longford were comfortable enough too towards the end. It was a mess. Johnno practically did a Floyd Patterson and left the building like a shot. Don't think he used a fake beard though!
Horan's team knocked out AI champions next Summer. That's all anybody needs to know. It was never about players.  Johnno got a Div. one squad as well and players that reached AI finals. Why wouldn t those lads you named not have sampled championship football?  It wasn't great experience though - like compared to young Dublin and Kerry lads that debut in teams on their upper.

Johnno might not have been great but he was not blind. McLoughlin should have been in earlier as well as corner back a year earlier btw.

Anyway, it is interesting that neutrals build up our managers but give our players a kicking.

2010 was a bad summer after a decent spring where Mayo reached the league final beating Cork,Kerry,Tyrone along the way.

Under the guidance of H&C Mayo won 4 U21 Connacht titles in a row and one All Ireland between 2006 to 2009. Then the James Horan success with Mayo seniors 2011 to 2014 was built around that group of players that played on those 2006 to 2009 U21s teams.

Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins; Chris Barrett, Colm Boyle; Seamus O'Shea,Barry Moran,Tom Parsons,Donal Vaughan,Jason Doherty,Robert Hennelly,Kevin Keane,Lee Keegan, Kevin McLoughlin, Aidan O'Shea i might be missing a few more.

Like i said Horan hardly started from zero but he got the rub of the green in his first championship game that could have been a far worse result than losing to Longford or Sligo!

What you are missing, is the point.

Galway have had greater recent U-21 success in the football and it got them nowhere. Their success underage didn't translate when they upgraded the U-21 manager either. Look at Limerick's hurling 3 in a row. It means nothing. 

Regarding senior football in 2010 Mayo were at a very low ebb. Losing consecutive championship games to Sligo and Longford is a dark place no matter how you look at it. Horan was a game-changer for us - literally. Nearly losing his first game doesn't alter that view any more than nearly winning All-Irelands makes you a champion.

[From the Bunker]

Questions for the pro-H&C brigade? (And anyone else for that matter!)

Do you believe H&C were originally appointed by a correct procedure?
Do you believe they were the proper (or best available) people for the job in hand?
Why didn't H&C deal aggressively with players named in the interview for not toeing the line?
Do you think that players who feel a Management regime that is not good enough should sit on their hands?
What do you believe this interview was for?

[RedandGreenSniper]

The trouble with so much of the debate going on around the county, and here, is that we're dealing in a lot of assumptions and hearing one side of the argument. Holmes and Connelly have spoken but until we hear from the players, I'd be keeping an open mind. Certainly what Holmes and Connelly have said are at odds with word that was coming out of the camp during the year. That doesn't mean that Holmes and Connelly are wrong and that word is right but it does mean there just might be a different account from the players. Two sides to every story etc. I don't think we'll be hearing from them though, to speak now is to give old news fresh oxygen.

There's an assumption being made that Aidan O'Shea's email was seeking to get his brother Conor included in the 26. The talk is that it was Mikie Sweeney. Again, no proof of that - we'd have to see the email or have that direct question asked but if it was Conor O'Shea, what was to stop Holmes and Connelly saying it? By not saying who it was, they knew well the assumption that would have been made. If it was Conor O'Shea, naming him would help their argument much, much more.

There's assumptions about the O'Sheas and Rochford sitting together at the semi-final. I find that preposterous. What proof is there of that?

Long and short of this is that after four years with Horan, Mayo would nearly have done as well as they did in 2015 in neutral gear with any management but issues that were there during the year might have made that a much harder ask in 2016. 27 players voted no confidence, seven voted the other way. That's more than a small group! And those seven attended with the full group of players to give a letter to the county board. There was no split in the camp and, save for Tom Cunniffe, there's been none since. If this was a stunt pulled by a few and players were exercising undue influence, do you think guys like Colm Boyle, Lee Keegan, Ger Cafferkey and Andy Moran would stand for it? Do you think if a few players got Rob Hennelly picked for the replay, David Clarke would be back in harness for 2017? 

[INDIANA]

The trouble with so much of the debate going on around the county, and here, is that we're dealing in a lot of assumptions and hearing one side of the argument. Holmes and Connelly have spoken but until we hear from the players, I'd be keeping an open mind. Certainly what Holmes and Connelly have said are at odds with word that was coming out of the camp during the year. That doesn't mean that Holmes and Connelly are wrong and that word is right but it does mean there just might be a different account from the players. Two sides to every story etc. I don't think we'll be hearing from them though, to speak now is to give old news fresh oxygen.

There's an assumption being made that Aidan O'Shea's email was seeking to get his brother Conor included in the 26. The talk is that it was Mikie Sweeney. Again, no proof of that - we'd have to see the email or have that direct question asked but if it was Conor O'Shea, what was to stop Holmes and Connelly saying it? By not saying who it was, they knew well the assumption that would have been made. If it was Conor O'Shea, naming him would help their argument much, much more.

There's assumptions about the O'Sheas and Rochford sitting together at the semi-final. I find that preposterous. What proof is there of that?

Long and short of this is that after four years with Horan, Mayo would nearly have done as well as they did in 2015 in neutral gear with any management but issues that were there during the year might have made that a much harder ask in 2016. 27 players voted no confidence, seven voted the other way. That's more than a small group! And those seven attended with the full group of players to give a letter to the county board. There was no split in the camp and, save for Tom Cunniffe, there's been none since. If this was a stunt pulled by a few and players were exercising undue influence, do you think guys like Colm Boyle, Lee Keegan, Ger Cafferkey and Andy Moran would stand for it? Do you think if a few players got Rob Hennelly picked for the replay, David Clarke would be back in harness for 2017?

There are no assumptions about them sitting together at the semi final. That is a fact.

I cannot understand what Rochford was doing in that instance.

Absolutely barmy.

There is a limit to player power and currently across the board at inter county level  players have too much say.

[rodney trotter]

David Brady says he's "nearly sick to death" of talking about Mayo football and fears that the recent criticism from the past senior management team could divide the county.

Speaking last night on Newstalk's Off The Ball programme, the former Mayo star said he felt that there's even more pressure on the team again to perform next season, after Pat Holmes and Noel Connelly pointed fingers at some of the players in the panel in an interview with the Irish Independent last week.

"I'm nearly sick to death talking about Mayo football, but there's always something. Whether it's September or December," said Brady.

"This time last year we were talking about Mayo management, the heave and new management coming in. This is different and for the first time we've seen from a media context, two managers coming out and saying what in their mind has happened.

"My fear is that this could divide a county that has been united for 60-odd years. There's never been any division, but slowly and surely I feel the division starting. What was printed from Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes' point of view, they felt it needed to be printed.

"From a players context, I think it's going to be a tough one to swallow, because whatever pressure was there has doubled from last year and I think there's now even more pressure again."

He added: "There'll be nothing said in any way shape or form from the Mayo players. There have been certain individuals who have been dealt a hard blow. It's on their shoulders, but they're man enough and talented enough to say 'right, it's part and parcel of playing gaelic football at the highest level'."

[RedandGreenSniper]

The trouble with so much of the debate going on around the county, and here, is that we're dealing in a lot of assumptions and hearing one side of the argument. Holmes and Connelly have spoken but until we hear from the players, I'd be keeping an open mind. Certainly what Holmes and Connelly have said are at odds with word that was coming out of the camp during the year. That doesn't mean that Holmes and Connelly are wrong and that word is right but it does mean there just might be a different account from the players. Two sides to every story etc. I don't think we'll be hearing from them though, to speak now is to give old news fresh oxygen.

There's an assumption being made that Aidan O'Shea's email was seeking to get his brother Conor included in the 26. The talk is that it was Mikie Sweeney. Again, no proof of that - we'd have to see the email or have that direct question asked but if it was Conor O'Shea, what was to stop Holmes and Connelly saying it? By not saying who it was, they knew well the assumption that would have been made. If it was Conor O'Shea, naming him would help their argument much, much more.

There's assumptions about the O'Sheas and Rochford sitting together at the semi-final. I find that preposterous. What proof is there of that?

Long and short of this is that after four years with Horan, Mayo would nearly have done as well as they did in 2015 in neutral gear with any management but issues that were there during the year might have made that a much harder ask in 2016. 27 players voted no confidence, seven voted the other way. That's more than a small group! And those seven attended with the full group of players to give a letter to the county board. There was no split in the camp and, save for Tom Cunniffe, there's been none since. If this was a stunt pulled by a few and players were exercising undue influence, do you think guys like Colm Boyle, Lee Keegan, Ger Cafferkey and Andy Moran would stand for it? Do you think if a few players got Rob Hennelly picked for the replay, David Clarke would be back in harness for 2017?

There are no assumptions about them sitting together at the semi final. That is a fact.

I cannot understand what Rochford was doing in that instance.

Absolutely barmy.

There is a limit to player power and currently across the board at inter county level  players have too much say.

How is it a fact? They were spotted talking. This does not mean they were sitting beside each other. I've heard they were seated near each other but not beside each other - they would both have access to AIB tickets - and talked at half time as anyone would. I cannot prove this without seeing their ticket stubs but I believe it. I agree, if what you say is true, it's barmy and worrying. But I don't think it is.

[Cunny Funt]

Maughan maybe but Horan hardly started from zero when Mayo had won a Connacht senior title 2 years before he arrived were division 1 team and had Ger Cafferkey,Donal Vaughan, Tom Cunniffe, Kevin McLoughlin;Aidan O Shea,Seamus O’Shea etc that had already sampled championship football.

Ah, come on!! Zero is losing to Sligo and Longford in the one Summer. That is no slight on those counties either, but doubt if either were playing in top2 divisions at the time. And it was championship ffs. Sligo had us beaten 20 mins. out and Longford were comfortable enough too towards the end. It was a mess. Johnno practically did a Floyd Patterson and left the building like a shot. Don't think he used a fake beard though!
Horan's team knocked out AI champions next Summer. That's all anybody needs to know. It was never about players.  Johnno got a Div. one squad as well and players that reached AI finals. Why wouldn t those lads you named not have sampled championship football?  It wasn't great experience though - like compared to young Dublin and Kerry lads that debut in teams on their upper.

Johnno might not have been great but he was not blind. McLoughlin should have been in earlier as well as corner back a year earlier btw.

Anyway, it is interesting that neutrals build up our managers but give our players a kicking.

2010 was a bad summer after a decent spring where Mayo reached the league final beating Cork,Kerry,Tyrone along the way.

Under the guidance of H&C Mayo won 4 U21 Connacht titles in a row and one All Ireland between 2006 to 2009. Then the James Horan success with Mayo seniors 2011 to 2014 was built around that group of players that played on those 2006 to 2009 U21s teams.

Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins; Chris Barrett, Colm Boyle; Seamus O’Shea,Barry Moran,Tom Parsons,Donal Vaughan,Jason Doherty,Robert Hennelly,Kevin Keane,Lee Keegan, Kevin McLoughlin, Aidan O’Shea i might be missing a few more.

Like i said Horan hardly started from zero but he got the rub of the green in his first championship game that could have been a far worse result than losing to Longford or Sligo!

What you are missing, is the point.

Galway have had greater recent U-21 success in the football and it got them nowhere. Their success underage didn't translate when they upgraded the U-21 manager either. Look at Limerick's hurling 3 in a row. It means nothing. 

Regarding senior football in 2010 Mayo were at a very low ebb. Losing consecutive championship games to Sligo and Longford is a dark place no matter how you look at it. Horan was a game-changer for us - literally. Nearly losing his first game doesn't alter that view any more than nearly winning All-Irelands makes you a champion.

The point moysider made was that Horan had to work from zero which isn't true.

Another manager in autumn of 2010 could have totally reshaped the Mayo panel with new players after those defeats to Sligo,Longford. Horan chose not too and while there is no guarantee in underage success Horan still built his team around youth in the hope and faith they would produce the goods. Another example of his faith in youth was making C O Connor a starter and main free taker at just 19.

A game changer for Horan and this group of players was the win against Cork that result gave them the belief to drive on in the years ahead things could have went the opposite way if Mayo had lost to London in 2011 instead.

[GalwayBayBoy]

Maughan maybe but Horan hardly started from zero when Mayo had won a Connacht senior title 2 years before he arrived were division 1 team and had Ger Cafferkey,Donal Vaughan, Tom Cunniffe, Kevin McLoughlin;Aidan O Shea,Seamus O'Shea etc that had already sampled championship football.

Ah, come on!! Zero is losing to Sligo and Longford in the one Summer. That is no slight on those counties either, but doubt if either were playing in top2 divisions at the time. And it was championship ffs. Sligo had us beaten 20 mins. out and Longford were comfortable enough too towards the end. It was a mess. Johnno practically did a Floyd Patterson and left the building like a shot. Don't think he used a fake beard though!
Horan's team knocked out AI champions next Summer. That's all anybody needs to know. It was never about players.  Johnno got a Div. one squad as well and players that reached AI finals. Why wouldn t those lads you named not have sampled championship football?  It wasn't great experience though - like compared to young Dublin and Kerry lads that debut in teams on their upper.

Johnno might not have been great but he was not blind. McLoughlin should have been in earlier as well as corner back a year earlier btw.

Anyway, it is interesting that neutrals build up our managers but give our players a kicking.

2010 was a bad summer after a decent spring where Mayo reached the league final beating Cork,Kerry,Tyrone along the way.

Under the guidance of H&C Mayo won 4 U21 Connacht titles in a row and one All Ireland between 2006 to 2009. Then the James Horan success with Mayo seniors 2011 to 2014 was built around that group of players that played on those 2006 to 2009 U21s teams.

Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins; Chris Barrett, Colm Boyle; Seamus O'Shea,Barry Moran,Tom Parsons,Donal Vaughan,Jason Doherty,Robert Hennelly,Kevin Keane,Lee Keegan, Kevin McLoughlin, Aidan O'Shea i might be missing a few more.

Like i said Horan hardly started from zero but he got the rub of the green in his first championship game that could have been a far worse result than losing to Longford or Sligo!

What you are missing, is the point.

Galway have had greater recent U-21 success in the football and it got them nowhere. Their success underage didn't translate when they upgraded the U-21 manager either. Look at Limerick's hurling 3 in a row. It means nothing. 

I often hear this said but you have to give players time. Mayo's recent success came mainly from their 2006 All-Ireland winning U-21's. Mayo didn't reach a senior final with them until 2012 which was 6 years later. Galway's two All-Ireland U-21 sides were in 2011 and 2013. Plus there are other variables involved such as the strength of the existing squad that the young players are absorbed into.

I wouldn't say it's got Galway "nowhere" either. I do think they are better and improved side than they were a few years ago when they couldn't even win a game in the qualifiers.

[muppet]

Maughan maybe but Horan hardly started from zero when Mayo had won a Connacht senior title 2 years before he arrived were division 1 team and had Ger Cafferkey,Donal Vaughan, Tom Cunniffe, Kevin McLoughlin;Aidan O Shea,Seamus O'Shea etc that had already sampled championship football.

Ah, come on!! Zero is losing to Sligo and Longford in the one Summer. That is no slight on those counties either, but doubt if either were playing in top2 divisions at the time. And it was championship ffs. Sligo had us beaten 20 mins. out and Longford were comfortable enough too towards the end. It was a mess. Johnno practically did a Floyd Patterson and left the building like a shot. Don't think he used a fake beard though!
Horan's team knocked out AI champions next Summer. That's all anybody needs to know. It was never about players.  Johnno got a Div. one squad as well and players that reached AI finals. Why wouldn t those lads you named not have sampled championship football?  It wasn't great experience though - like compared to young Dublin and Kerry lads that debut in teams on their upper.

Johnno might not have been great but he was not blind. McLoughlin should have been in earlier as well as corner back a year earlier btw.

Anyway, it is interesting that neutrals build up our managers but give our players a kicking.

2010 was a bad summer after a decent spring where Mayo reached the league final beating Cork,Kerry,Tyrone along the way.

Under the guidance of H&C Mayo won 4 U21 Connacht titles in a row and one All Ireland between 2006 to 2009. Then the James Horan success with Mayo seniors 2011 to 2014 was built around that group of players that played on those 2006 to 2009 U21s teams.

Ger Cafferkey, Keith Higgins; Chris Barrett, Colm Boyle; Seamus O'Shea,Barry Moran,Tom Parsons,Donal Vaughan,Jason Doherty,Robert Hennelly,Kevin Keane,Lee Keegan, Kevin McLoughlin, Aidan O'Shea i might be missing a few more.

Like i said Horan hardly started from zero but he got the rub of the green in his first championship game that could have been a far worse result than losing to Longford or Sligo!

What you are missing, is the point.

Galway have had greater recent U-21 success in the football and it got them nowhere. Their success underage didn't translate when they upgraded the U-21 manager either. Look at Limerick's hurling 3 in a row. It means nothing. 

I often hear this said but you have to give players time. Mayo's recent success came mainly from their 2006 All-Ireland winning U-21's. Mayo didn't reach a senior final with them until 2012 which was 6 years later. Galway's two All-Ireland U-21 sides were in 2011 and 2013. Plus there are other variables involved such as the strength of the existing squad that the young players are absorbed into.

I wouldn't say it's got Galway "nowhere" either. I do think they are better and improved side than they were a few years ago when they couldn't even win a game in the qualifiers.

Galway also won in 2002 and 2005. That is what the 2011 & 2013 sides should have been absorbed into. 4 U-21 All-Irelands in 11 years and still not a single Championship win in Croker.

Anyway the point wasn't to criticise Galway, it was to show that underage success isn't much of a guide.

[rodney trotter]

Dublin won U21 All Irelands in 2010, 12 and 14. Gavin was the manager in 2010.

With the right management in place under age success can translate to Senior. Mullholland done well with Galway at U21 but didn't seem to inspire them at Senior. They seem to have a few players back for 2017, Armstrong, Lundy, Johnny Duane, Fintan O Curraoin,  a

[seafoid]

You hafta have a system to fit under 21s into. Galway have now. They didn't have before. I still think Galway will win Sam before Mayo do. All that wasted effort.

[Lar Naparka]

Maughan maybe but Horan hardly started from zero when Mayo had won a Connacht senior title 2 years before he arrived were division 1 team and had Ger Cafferkey,Donal Vaughan, Tom Cunniffe, Kevin McLoughlin;Aidan O Shea,Seamus O'Shea etc that had already sampled championship football.

I think if we are to make a fist of where we are going, it's best to keep in mind where we have come from. To start, we'd need to look at the Second Coming of John the Messiah and to do so in an objective state of mind.

Johnno took over a team of seasoned players who had contested the AI the previous season and was still mainly intact.  Okay, the side had flopped in the final but had beaten the Dubs in a thrilling semi-final fighting back from 0-6 down and 20 minutes to go.
Micheál Ó Muircheartaigh called it the greatest game of all time. Hyperbole alright but , still, a top class game between two very good sides..
When John's reign came an end in 2010, his side managed somehow to get beaten by a piss-poor Sligo team that couldn't handle Roscommon and left through the Back Door in their next outing. Mayo also got booted out also rather abruptly, losing to a Div 4 side, Longford.
From the team Johnno inherited to the team he left behind him a steady line of team form could be drawn but unfortunately it would be straight down.

I never saw such a dispirited display from any Mayo side than the one I had the misfortune to witness that day in Sligo. I have had to stomach some awful bleddy useless displays from Mayo teams in my time and I can just about remember some of the survivors from '50 and '51 in action.
An incident in the second half summed up that dreadful day for me.  Aidan O'Shea had just been dispossessed rather easily about his 45m line.  Instead of tracking back as Horan would have him do, he turned his back on the play and stood with arms akimbo; hands on hips with elbows pointing out. Then he began to dig his toes into the ground. A few jabs with one and then the other as the action was unfolding in front of his own goal.
I didn't go to the Longford game because I didn't want to see Mayo humiliated so soon again after that awful day in Markievicz Park.
The following year, with James Horan in command, what was basically the same team got to the AI semis, taking a Connacht title along  the way. To put it mildly, , John O'Mahony did Mayo a greater favour by getting to hell out of in 2010- rather than persisting in seeing how far he could take them on a downward curve.
I don't imagine that things could have gotten worse had he stayed on but I wouldn't have put any money on it either.

[Halfquarter]

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You hafta have a system to fit under 21s into. Galway have now. They didn't have before. I still think Galway will win Sam before Mayo do. All that wasted effort.

Mickey Harte would not agree with you !
"But he pointed to the example of Mayo as a team to take inspiration from. Their hunger to get back and battle every year is a credit to them, says Harte.
"It's great to be part of an All-Ireland final even if you don't win it. People are talking about how many Mayo have missed and lost and all the rest of it, but how many counties have never experienced that opportunity?

"All those ones they lost, they had to be in the final so there's a lot of people in Mayo who have an experience of an All-Ireland. There's a huge amount of people who have played football who have never had a taste of that day.
"Mayo already had three All-Irelands tucked away before we got our first! I remember looking back and you'd have recognised that Mayo were All-Ireland champions on a couple of occasions before Tyrone were able to reach that height. I think Mayo can take great heart from the fact that they're coming back time after time, that they have quality players, they have good underage success."

"It's going to happen some day for them. The players, whatever day it's going to happen, they'll hope that they're the ones that are on the field. I think it's a question of when rather than if it will happen."

[RedandGreenSniper]

Lar, I couldn't agree with you more, that game in Sligo was the worst I've ever seen from Mayo in championship. Mayo started brilliantly with Alan Freeman running riot in his debut (he still hasn't been as good as he was in the two championship games in 2010) but Sligo turned the screw and the result was beyond doubt before the end, save for some nerves from an unfancied team on the brink of a shock.

Longford actually wasn't as bad in performance terms but if you could go back in time now I defy you to find any Mayo fan leaving that day who felt 'the future is bright'. It's easy to draw a line from now and say there was a great group there. There was a great group in the 1970s too, Minor All-Ireland in 1, U21 in 74 but we won no Connacht senior title that decade and only one out of the first five on offer in the 1980s. Horan's success in bringing Mayo where they were at the end of the 2011 season was incredible, to have them still at the level they are at is a huge testament to the players but in a big way to Horan himself. If Mayo win an All Ireland under Rochford, Horan will deserve a decent share of the credit.