Down v Armagh (Park Esler 16:00) 19/05/2019

Started by illdecide, May 06, 2019, 10:29:49 PM

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tonto1888

Quote from: Over the Bar on May 20, 2019, 12:32:26 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 20, 2019, 12:13:14 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on May 20, 2019, 12:12:01 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 19, 2019, 11:59:23 PM
Clarke gave his gloves to my nephew at the end of the game today. Absolutely made the wee mans day. Fair play to Jamie. Class on and off the pitch

+1. Unlike his manager

McGeeney was very classy with everyone at the open morning a fortnight ago so will have to disagree. The incident you refer today was nothing at all

Open morning with the public has nothing to do with it. A manager is judged by he conducts himself during the game and McGeeney let himself down a bagful.  Blind-sided the Down player during the interval while he was running of the field. Could easily have put him out of the game. Shit-house tactics reminiscent of Pillar and we all know what those won in the long run.
A bit of an over exaggeration there

Dougal Maguire

Quote from: Over the Bar on May 20, 2019, 12:32:26 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 20, 2019, 12:13:14 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on May 20, 2019, 12:12:01 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 19, 2019, 11:59:23 PM
Clarke gave his gloves to my nephew at the end of the game today. Absolutely made the wee mans day. Fair play to Jamie. Class on and off the pitch

+1. Unlike his manager

McGeeney was very classy with everyone at the open morning a fortnight ago so will have to disagree. The incident you refer today was nothing at all

Open morning with the public has nothing to do with it. A manager is judged by he conducts himself during the game and McGeeney let himself down a bagful.  Blind-sided the Down player during the interval while he was running of the field. Could easily have put him out of the game. Shit-house tactics reminiscent of Pillar and we all know what those won in the long run.
The man's an embarrassment and the sooner he's out the door the better. Not the first time he's let the county down with his antics.
Careful now

Armagh18

Quote from: Dougal Maguire on May 20, 2019, 08:14:50 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on May 20, 2019, 12:32:26 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 20, 2019, 12:13:14 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on May 20, 2019, 12:12:01 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on May 19, 2019, 11:59:23 PM
Clarke gave his gloves to my nephew at the end of the game today. Absolutely made the wee mans day. Fair play to Jamie. Class on and off the pitch

+1. Unlike his manager

McGeeney was very classy with everyone at the open morning a fortnight ago so will have to disagree. The incident you refer today was nothing at all

Open morning with the public has nothing to do with it. A manager is judged by he conducts himself during the game and McGeeney let himself down a bagful.  Blind-sided the Down player during the interval while he was running of the field. Could easily have put him out of the game. Shit-house tactics reminiscent of Pillar and we all know what those won in the long run.
The man's an embarrassment and the sooner he's out the door the better. Not the first time he's let the county down with his antics.
Some anti-McGeeney agenda bullshit being spewed on here. I'm no huge fan of his and I'd like him to do plenty differently, but theres a good few on here that wouldn't praise him if we got to an All-Ireland.

LCohen

By the letter of the law McGeeney could be in trouble but some of the descriptions on here of the incident are a joke.

In the game O'Neill could have had a red. It was the merest tsp to the side of the head but that's a red now. I actually think the antics of Guinness kept Rian on the pitch as the linesman didn't want to appear to have fallen for what was the worst play acting I have ever seen on a gaa pitch. If there is close footage of that incident then YouTube stardom beckons for Guinness. Shameful stuff


yellowcard

Let's get real, the McGeeney incident was nothing more than a bit of a dunt, to say that he could have put a well conditioned athlete like McKernan out of the game is pure hyperbole. McKernan didn't complain too much about it. Caolan Mooney was out gesticulating and finger pointing and this was after forcing his team to play with 14 men for 45 minutes, he should have been hiding in a corner not out trying to start another row.

Applesisapples

Quote from: LCohen on May 20, 2019, 09:14:11 AM
By the letter of the law McGeeney could be in trouble but some of the descriptions on here of the incident are a joke.

In the game O'Neill could have had a red. It was the merest tsp to the side of the head but that's a red now. I actually think the antics of Guinness kept Rian on the pitch as the linesman didn't want to appear to have fallen for what was the worst play acting I have ever seen on a gaa pitch. If there is close footage of that incident then YouTube stardom beckons for Guinness. Shameful stuff
It was slight and purely accidental in my view.

Armamike

#141
Sorry guys but that was very poor from McGeeney.  You can't have a manager at that. Firstly, it makes himself look daft, it shows a lack of control and focus, and it sends a bad message out to the players.  We lack enough discipline as it is, without the manager at that.  I've never seen that from a successful manager.

Good resolve shown by us to come back in extra time when 3 points down.  Almost blew a golden opportunity in normal time with Down's red card and their keeper thinking he was a half back (an accident waiting to happen and probably the one bad piece of coaching by Tally).  The lack of game management is a problem as we've seen over the past couple of years.  We decided to sit back a bit and play keep ball at 5 up but we're not tight enough at the back to see out games that way - we don't close down the spaces and when we do we concede cheap frees.  I thought all over the pitch from the off we sat off too much in general and we weren't brave enough to close down and go for the ball. Down had far too much time to play around us.  I thought Down looked a very well coached and drilled team whereas we relied more on the individual talents of players like Clarke, O'Neill, Murnin etc.

But, any kind of win in the championship for this set of players will do at this point and it's a hurdle they've managed to overcome.  Hopefully it will spur the team on and they will take a bit of belief into the Cavan game.
That's just, like your opinion man.

Aristo 60

Quote from: armaghniac on May 15, 2019, 03:36:41 PM
Quote from: Aristo 60 on May 15, 2019, 03:18:48 PM
Donal O'Hare 9 out of the 12 points

And Oisin telling BBC "Well Maaaaarrrrrccck, Donal is a quality player" glint in eye "but this Armagh team will have a say the next day whoever they meet you can be sure about that"

Aren't yous lucky to get a Cross' woman into Down to provide you with footballers.

And in the end Cabra's Murnin stole it for Armagh  :(

Auld Andy of 1946 vintage will be spinning in his grave (RIP)


Armamike

That's just, like your opinion man.

Aristo 60


JoG2

Quote from: Over the Bar on May 19, 2019, 10:52:00 PM
McGeeney obviously took a leaf out of Pillar Caffrey's management book of failure today. Shouldering a blindsided Down player during the interval. Classlessness personified.

You questioning another man's class belongs in the WTF thread ! Comedy gold

johnnycool

Quote from: Armamike on May 20, 2019, 10:05:01 AM
Indeed. And we gave you Greg Blaney!

There's also a bit of Tyrone in Greg.

Square ball can correct me.

I'd expect McGeeney to get the same as wee Davy Fitz did a few years back when he dunted the Tipp lad.

A wee spell in the stands.

brokencrossbar1

A curate's egg of a performance.  Firstly, well done to all involved in the win. To win in the Ulster Championship has been a very big psychological hurdle for this group but an important thing was that there were 4-5 who have not played or played very little in Ulster so the baggage was not there and they had some freedom to play.  Also, beating Down in Newry is always a good result and given that they hadn't been beaten in 63 years in championship makes it even better.

The positives are there.  Some good defenders but still a bit below level as a unit.  Thought Kennedy out in a very good shift for a newbie and Morgan did well when he came in.    In MF Burns did well and I think he will compliment Niall Grimley very well when he gets back fully fit.  Vernon is not the man for MF anymore but may be useful on the square as some have suggested as there is a serious lack of strength back there.

Up front Nugent impressed on his debut and he has a good opportunity now to establish himself.  Clarke played better than he has for a while which makes his refusal to play for his club even more frustrating.  I have major reservations about this whole scenario and it seems to be being brushed under the carpet to an extent.  The notion that a player can openly refuse to play for his club and then play for the county is unsettling.  I recall during my playing days when we were going for an All Ireland and the Armagh management at the time threatened to have Oisin, the Twins and Paul Hearty suspended from the club scene as they wouldn't play National League.  We were playing in an Ulster Final the week after a National league game,  back when there were games pre-Christmas.  This notion of the county outweighing the club is something I find unfair and really it sends a bad message that a lad can play for the county and not play for the club.  It won't happen but questions should be raised as this open action of refusing to play for your club while playing for the county is wrong and goes against the ethos of the game in my opinion.

Anyway,  the performance of Rian was outstanding and he certainly has it all.  If Grimley, Murnin and Oisin O'Neill can get back fit I think between them there is a central spine from MF forward that can be devastating if properly utilized.  The pure talent these lads have is exceptional and if the right players are played round them then they can do anything in my opinion.  If I was picking the team from MF forward and all were fit I would play Grimley and Burns in MF, a half forward line of Clarke, O O'Neill and Nugent and a FF line triangle of 2 targets in Rian and Murnin with Soupy floating either side of them.  Soupy and Jamie could interchange from HF to FF lines. 

As you will see Grugan is not in the team and to be honest this brings me to my negatives.  I thought he was poor and has been poor for some time.  He is captain and it is not suiting him.  He is not a big game player and certainly not a leader.  I actually thought that was one of the big concerns yesterday in terms of leadership and calmness at key times.  The game should have been won in normal time.  Down were a busted flush with 14 men (rightly so,  clear red card), and with a keeper gone for a black card.  The game management was poor and the experienced players like Grugan, Donaghy, Forker, etc should have been taking control of the game at different times and calming the whole thing down.  Lying down, cramp etc, break up momentum.  This didn't happen.  Some of the football was kamikaze and the OG goal summed that up.  Leadership is needed.  There is no disputing the drive and desire but there needs to be a bit more cuteness.

As alluded to already there is an issue at the FB and GK position in my opinion.  I have suggested Vernon at FB but that is just a sticky plaster.  Blaine Hughes is a decent keeper but he is a weak link as he has limited presence.  I have heard a story about an outfield player was approached to play goals and he subsequently removed himself from the panel.  This player would have a significant better presence that Hughes so maybe that was the thinking.  Long term there needs to be a bit of clever thinking about this position.

Management made decent substitutions but also made a few head scratchers.  Also the whole McGeeney incident with McKernan was embarrassing and out of line for his part. As a manager you need to have a bit of coolness and leadership and in that one incident this was lacking.  If the rules are applied he could be looking at 12 weeks in the stand.

Finally,  and not to piss on people's chips,  but this is  a very poor Down team.  They couldn't get out of Division 3.  We played against 14 men for 40 minutes,  we were 5 points up with time almost up and drew and we were 4 up with time up in ET and conceded poorly again. This will not do against Cavan, whom I thought looked excellent on Saturday night. 

Some good some bad but the key thing is a win.  Confidence and momentum can hopefully build.

Brick Tamlin

#148
A entertaining game for both sets of fans and neutrals id say.
Armagh are their own worst enemies, with a baffling starting 15 and team set up and a style of play that doesnt play to their strengths. They invited a more mobile and fluid Down side onto them by retreating into their own half with multiple sweepers even when 5pts up which was beggars belief. Down worked a similar system but worked it better it seemed. Armagh barged down blind allies carrying the ball into a swarm of red n black and repeatedly turned ball over. Individual flashes of quality and a jammy goal saw them over the line but only just.

Down impressed due to their hunger and energy and clear commitment to a system of play that suits their personnel/size. They looked a well coached and disciplined side and the more the game wore on they looked the side with more belief in what they were doing, even if the sending off and black card derailed them slightly. This young side demonstrated alot of the qualities that have been missing in recent years and the lesser-known players really stepped up at critical junctures in the game. There is definitely room for improvement in that side and with a bit of momentum and a few wins they could form a decent side.

For me, Mooney shouldnt have seen red. Yes he has a duty of care to the man he attempts to tackle but with the speed/angle he was going at and with Nugent checking back inside, any contact was going to look severe. There was no clear raising of an elbow or arm to make contact but rather a shaping to shoulder which clearly was mistimed or misdirected. His direct running and ability to punch holes in the Armagh defence was a massive loss.

Down also have an issue with goalkeepers it seems and thats worrying.

BCB1, i dont know the ins and outs whet youse have done on Clarke up there but i have to agree with you. Its not personal but no player has any business on a county panel yet alone playing unless they are there representing their club. Dont play for a club then you shouldnt be playing for county.

Rory Grugan shouldnt be starting for Armagh due to form and he certainly isnt fit to capt an intercounty team. Lacks leadership, presence and above all he doesnt inspire at all.

Team selection baffles too. Morgan has to start but only if he is muzzled and can behave. Armagh carrying too many older heads that McGeeney seems very loyal to, fellas that arent as mobile or fit for the athleticism of the modern game. You cant be starting Vernon, Forker, Donaghy and Ethan Rafferty all on the same team. There are more athletic and dynamic players on the bench and when you see Vernon being brought back on again youd have to ask yourself some questions if you were a sub.
Goalkeeping situation is a joke with Jack Grugan being asked to fill in as a goalkeeper in recent weeks and the Oisin O'Neil named as no 16 on matchday. Something not right there, but then again everyone knows McGeeney has no time for Goalkeepers.

He also needs to look at his conduct at full time. The macho bullsh!t and chest beating precipitates down through that team and it comes from the management team. Down had an inferior team on paper and are behind in terms of their development compared to Armagh but if i were an Armagh fan id be rippin at how that game went yesterday

Keyser soze

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on May 20, 2019, 11:16:14 AM
A curate's egg of a performance.  Firstly, well done to all involved in the win. To win in the Ulster Championship has been a very big psychological hurdle for this group but an important thing was that there were 4-5 who have not played or played very little in Ulster so the baggage was not there and they had some freedom to play.  Also, beating Down in Newry is always a good result and given that they hadn't been beaten in 63 years in championship makes it even better.

The positives are there.  Some good defenders but still a bit below level as a unit.  Thought Kennedy out in a very good shift for a newbie and Morgan did well when he came in.    In MF Burns did well and I think he will compliment Niall Grimley very well when he gets back fully fit.  Vernon is not the man for MF anymore but may be useful on the square as some have suggested as there is a serious lack of strength back there.

Up front Nugent impressed on his debut and he has a good opportunity now to establish himself.  Clarke played better than he has for a while which makes his refusal to play for his club even more frustrating.  I have major reservations about this whole scenario and it seems to be being brushed under the carpet to an extent.  The notion that a player can openly refuse to play for his club and then play for the county is unsettling.  I recall during my playing days when we were going for an All Ireland and the Armagh management at the time threatened to have Oisin, the Twins and Paul Hearty suspended from the club scene as they wouldn't play National League.  We were playing in an Ulster Final the week after a National league game,  back when there were games pre-Christmas.  This notion of the county outweighing the club is something I find unfair and really it sends a bad message that a lad can play for the county and not play for the club.  It won't happen but questions should be raised as this open action of refusing to play for your club while playing for the county is wrong and goes against the ethos of the game in my opinion.

Anyway,  the performance of Rian was outstanding and he certainly has it all.  If Grimley, Murnin and Oisin O'Neill can get back fit I think between them there is a central spine from MF forward that can be devastating if properly utilized.  The pure talent these lads have is exceptional and if the right players are played round them then they can do anything in my opinion.  If I was picking the team from MF forward and all were fit I would play Grimley and Burns in MF, a half forward line of Clarke, O O'Neill and Nugent and a FF line triangle of 2 targets in Rian and Murnin with Soupy floating either side of them.  Soupy and Jamie could interchange from HF to FF lines. 

As you will see Grugan is not in the team and to be honest this brings me to my negatives.  I thought he was poor and has been poor for some time.  He is captain and it is not suiting him.  He is not a big game player and certainly not a leader.  I actually thought that was one of the big concerns yesterday in terms of leadership and calmness at key times.  The game should have been won in normal time.  Down were a busted flush with 14 men (rightly so,  clear red card), and with a keeper gone for a black card.  The game management was poor and the experienced players like Grugan, Donaghy, Forker, etc should have been taking control of the game at different times and calming the whole thing down. Lying down, cramp etc, break up momentum.  This didn't happen.  Some of the football was kamikaze and the OG goal summed that up.  Leadership is needed.  There is no disputing the drive and desire but there needs to be a bit more cuteness.

As alluded to already there is an issue at the FB and GK position in my opinion.  I have suggested Vernon at FB but that is just a sticky plaster.  Blaine Hughes is a decent keeper but he is a weak link as he has limited presence.  I have heard a story about an outfield player was approached to play goals and he subsequently removed himself from the panel.  This player would have a significant better presence that Hughes so maybe that was the thinking.  Long term there needs to be a bit of clever thinking about this position.

Management made decent substitutions but also made a few head scratchers.  Also the whole McGeeney incident with McKernan was embarrassing and out of line for his part. As a manager you need to have a bit of coolness and leadership and in that one incident this was lacking.  If the rules are applied he could be looking at 12 weeks in the stand.

Finally,  and not to piss on people's chips,  but this is  a very poor Down team.  They couldn't get out of Division 3.  We played against 14 men for 40 minutes,  we were 5 points up with time almost up and drew and we were 4 up with time up in ET and conceded poorly again. This will not do against Cavan, whom I thought looked excellent on Saturday night. 

Some good some bad but the key thing is a win.  Confidence and momentum can hopefully build.

Maybe it was just me but I thought Armagh did plenty of lying down, didn't count the number but it appeared to me that the Armagh players  hit the ground after any contact no matter how slight and the physio was on to give them a wee rub and a drink.  Not saying this didn't happen with the Down players too but it seemed to happen repeatedly for Armagh after there was any contact whatsoever.

In general this 'lie down after contact and don't get up until the physio comes on and says there there' is a complete PITA, big strong lads getting the slightest tap and lying down as if poleaxed, embarassing tbh. 

Also why both teams were f****** about with handpasses around the middle when it was clear if you kicked the ball in long you were gonna get a goal was beyond me.