Anyone got an opinion on what O'Rourke has to say?
Fire ahead... (http://"https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/colm-orourke-lets-tackle-the-elephant-in-the-room-37539443.html")
Totally agree
Money being spent on the crapfest that is the Fenway classic and no money available for rural gaa development plans in the likes of Midland counties
I agree with the article. Dublin's average win in the Leinster Championship was 20 points and in pretty much every other game after that I thought they won pulling up. From the round robin onwards they brought a new game management tactic to keep the ball and take time of the clock when they got a 6 or 7 point lead. It might be a good enough tactic but I get the feeling if they took the handbrake off they could have won every game by 10+ points. More than negative tactics being an issue is that this year in particular was a 1 horse race.
Is it that there is a lack of development plans in the midlands or that there isn't as many people living in these places any more? In the past you might have a small club with 5 or 6 big strong sons from 1 or 2 families that that made up the spine of a good club or county team but that doesn't happen near as much any more 1 because people don't have as many children and 2 because they are probably sat at their playstation playing fortnite or doing silly things like homework instead of being out in the back field to all hours learning the skills kicking lumps out of each other. It's not impossible but it is harder to compete now that ever before.
Link doesn't work for me Lar.
Couldn't see it either.
If rural no economy Roscommon and Monaghan can produce players ton make them top 10 teams surely to God the better off bigger populated Counties of Laois, Offaly and Westmeath should be able to do so also?
Or is th'oul hurley stuff getting in the way?
Quote from: Rossfan on November 19, 2018, 11:03:27 PM
Couldn't see it either.
If rural no economy Roscommon and Monaghan can produce players ton make them top 10 teams surely to God the better off bigger populated Counties of Laois, Offaly and Westmeath should be able to do so also?
Or is th'oul hurley stuff getting in the way?
Dunno what happened lads, it was working fine when I posted it.
Here is the article in full:
We have to talk about Dublin and by extension, everywhere else. That causes complications. It elicits a strong response from the normal quarters so it is difficult to make any case without the debate turning into something unintended.
So it would be nice if the debate on the future role of Dublin at both club and county level was conducted free from prejudice. It would also be nice if it's free from the standard reply of players who, almost like they're following a rehearsed script, will argue that Dublin's success is down to all the volunteers who put in an enormous amount of work when players are coming up through the ranks. We all know that. It is not the point.
It should also be free from former players saying that Dublin have only won a relatively small amount over the last 50 years and nobody mentioned any changes to the status of Kilkenny or Kerry when they were hoovering up All-Irelands. That is not the point either.
And the clowns who could not help themselves but launch into a tirade of abuse about my writings on a debate about splitting up Dublin after this year's All-Ireland are certainly not the point either.
And free from administrators arguing that the population and financial clout of Dublin does not give it an unfair advantage. They are missing the point altogether, but naturally enough self-preservation is the key there.
This debate is unlikely to come at central level for some time. John Costello, the Dublin chief executive, has no interest in it, neither has the president John Horan, from Dublin, and it does not appear to be on the radar of Tom Ryan, who has spent a lot of time involved with Dublin club hurling. It is up to him mainly to plot a course for the next decade and let us all know his vision.
In some respects it is a very bad time to question anything about Dublin. The easy thing for opponents to say when Dublin are on top is that the arguments are borne out of envy, jealousy or worse. That the problem lies with poor standards elsewhere and people should look after their own business rather than interfering with the brand that is successful. There is certainly merit in identifying the failures in many counties, none more so than in Meath, but that does not tackle the issue.
Even when this great Dublin team are beaten, the issue will remain that the natural advantages of the capital city and county are such that few counties will be competitive again (many never were), but also more importantly that the present model of the GAA in Dublin is not good for the organisation long term. Maybe not even for Dublin itself where it is still a struggle for the GAA to gain traction in plenty of city areas. Football has become a middle-class game and old working-class communities play soccer primarily rather than football or hurling. There is a need for more clubs.
There is also a major issue of player opportunity which should be addressed. Few players will get the chance to play with Dublin relative to the numbers available, even some of the very best. Over the last few weeks I have watched Kilmacud Crokes in the flesh twice. First in the Dublin county final and last week against Dunboyne in the Leinster club championship.
Dunboyne were certainly way below their usual standard, yet at the same time I could not help but think that there are at least six Kilmacud players who would get on almost all county teams, except Dublin of course. That is leaving out Paul Mannion, whose standard of play is in a different league altogether. Are they lucky to be born in Dublin and playing with a great club side or unfortunate that they have no chance of playing county football?
Opinions may differ on this, but every player would like to test themselves at the highest possible level. Should they be allowed to declare for someone else? Should other counties be allowed to approach players in Dublin clubs who would make a big difference to their cause?
Perhaps those in positions of influence might give their views on that. A type of transfer system. Obviously many of the weaker counties would not be attractive in this context, so it would only benefit a few. Yet something is needed to rebalance a county game which is less and less competitive.
Kilmacud may not win the Leinster or All-Ireland club championship this year, but they would beat half the county teams in the country. In some ways the success and brilliant organisation of clubs like Kilmacud and Ballyboden, who can turn out over a hundred teams, also reflects other issues which need discussion within Dublin. At what point are clubs too big? Would more clubs attract more players?
This is a growing city problem which is in absolute contrast to many rural clubs who are finding it increasingly difficult to field teams at underage level. Smaller families and falling population as a result of planning laws is destroying not just clubs but rural life as well. Who has a plan for that? GAA clubs have to amalgamate, sometimes two or three clubs to field an underage team. The strong get stronger, the weak get trampled on.
I thought of this when I saw on TV recently that the power stations of the midlands are closing - an absolute hammer blow to a lot of rural areas. To the GAA club, to the local national school, the post office, the shop, the pub, everything that binds these communities together. Maybe I missed something but I see nobody shouting stop or offering any hope that people can continue to live in the place where they want to raise their family.
Then there is the first-world problem of continued Dublin domination. Of course it will end in its present form, but because the resources in terms of players, finance, coaching and management are vastly superior to everywhere else, any Dublin setback will be temporary.
This does not entitle counties to give up, but a proud county like Offaly is losing more than bogs and power stations. Up to 20 years ago Offaly could take on Dublin as equals. It is not going to happen again unless I'm reading the tea leaves wrongly. This is now a mini taking on a juggernaut.
The very obvious thing to do is to divide Dublin up into several different teams. That suggestion causes palpitations among the Dublin hierarchy who just want to let the good times roll. That recommendation was made more than 15 years ago by a committee of top brains in Croke Park but has been ignored by all those at central level since, and of course Dublin swept it under the carpet as fast as possible. There it remains, depriving hundreds of young Dublin footballers of playing underage for some Dublin team and ensuring great adult footballers are frozen out.
Would Dublin supporters warm to these divisions and turn out in numbers in Croke Park? Would there be more at Dublin Fingal versus Dublin South than Dublin against Wicklow or Wexford? Even Jim Gavin can't make that look exciting. The present Leinster Championship is a dead duck. It is not retrievable. Hoping that something will turn up is not a policy.
So the GAA trudges on. It will hardly die out anywhere, even in places where the population of young people continues to decline through temporary emigration or a permanent fall in numbers, often not assisted by local authority planning where the future in the eyes of planners seems to be about shoehorning everyone into towns instead of creating plenty of vibrant villages. Local pride dictates that some sort of a team takes the pitch, nobody wants to let the light go out on their watch. These are also the societal issues which threaten the GAA.
So this is where city and country collide. Dublin is one side of the coin and much of the midlands reflects the other. If somebody in authority is suggesting that Dublin county and clubs get bigger and stronger and rural Ireland decays then we have a serious problem. Because by doing nothing that is exactly the implication.
Soon, new rules will emerge which will attempt to tackle the drift towards repetitive handpassing in football which is boring supporters to the point where they are choosing not to watch games. That is a problem.
Much more urgent, though, is the silent destruction of the GAA where rural clubs are struggling to field teams and where there is a complete lack of competition at county level. This is a structural issue which must start with a debate on Dublin. If things are allowed to drift for another ten years then the GAA as a national movement will be a much lesser organisation. The success of Dublin as a county and the sheer scale of their clubs won't paper over those cracks. The original design of the GAA was one of a socialist mass movement. Now it has become elitist. I don't like the drift.
Can't disagree with much of that.
The link has a few characters wrong at the start
The Midland counties should be relying on their larger towns to produce players, however
Portlaoise only has one GAA club for 22000 people
Mullingar for 20000+ people has 2 football and one hurling
Athlone for 21k + has one hurling and two football
Where is the urban development plan in those towns? Non existent!
A type of transfer system? Let's say that happens and loads of these Dublin club players turn out for other counties. Wouldn't that just create a problem in said counties where their own players can't get a game?
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 19, 2018, 11:27:45 PM
The link has a few characters wrong at the start
The Midland counties should be relying on their larger towns to produce players, however
Portlaoise only has one GAA club for 22000 people
Mullingar for 20000+ people has 2 football and one hurling
Athlone for 21k + has one hurling and two football
Where is the urban development plan in those towns? Non existent!
For Athlone, you are only referring to east of the Shannon there. On the west of the Shannon, you have a large chunk of the catchment areas of Clann na Gael and even a piece of St Brigids....... so 4 football clubs (including Garrycastle and Athlone), 3 of whom have competed on All-Ireland club final day while the 4th has the most Westmeath senior championships. And strangely, people still consider it a soccer town because of the history of Athlone Town ... despite them usually getting about 2 men and a dog at their home games.
Add to that in Westmeath, you have Castledaly as a senior club who are only a few miles outside the town boundary and Tubberclair & Caulry (both currently intermediate and occasionally senior) also about 4/5 miles out.
Well said O'Rourke...
I see it here in Limerick, na. piarsaigh grow into a Kilmavud Crokes while other city clubs flounder and west limerick continues to be depopulated
I agree with a lot about what he says and some good points made above about large towns, I.E one team in Portlaose of 15k etc.
But this:
The very obvious thing to do is to divide Dublin up into several different teams. That suggestion causes palpitations among the Dublin hierarchy who just want to let the good times roll. That recommendation was made more than 15 years ago by a committee of top brains in Croke Park but has been ignored by all those at central level since, and of course Dublin swept it under the carpet as fast as possible. There it remains, depriving hundreds of young Dublin footballers of playing underage for some Dublin team and ensuring great adult footballers are frozen out.
Would Dublin supporters warm to these divisions and turn out in numbers in Croke Park? Would there be more at Dublin Fingal versus Dublin South than Dublin against Wicklow or Wexford? Even Jim Gavin can't make that look exciting. The present Leinster Championship is a dead duck. It is not retrievable. Hoping that something will turn up is not a policy.
1. Over my dead body and the body of all Dublin supporters.
2. If it did happen I would never support a divisional Dublin team, I know others wouldnt either.
Quote from: TheGreatest on November 20, 2018, 10:16:10 AM
I agree with a lot about what he says and some good points made above about large towns, I.E one team in Portlaose of 15k etc.
But this:
The very obvious thing to do is to divide Dublin up into several different teams. That suggestion causes palpitations among the Dublin hierarchy who just want to let the good times roll. That recommendation was made more than 15 years ago by a committee of top brains in Croke Park but has been ignored by all those at central level since, and of course Dublin swept it under the carpet as fast as possible. There it remains, depriving hundreds of young Dublin footballers of playing underage for some Dublin team and ensuring great adult footballers are frozen out.
Would Dublin supporters warm to these divisions and turn out in numbers in Croke Park? Would there be more at Dublin Fingal versus Dublin South than Dublin against Wicklow or Wexford? Even Jim Gavin can't make that look exciting. The present Leinster Championship is a dead duck. It is not retrievable. Hoping that something will turn up is not a policy.
1. Over my dead body and the body of all Dublin supporters.
2. If it did happen I would never support a divisional Dublin team, I know others wouldnt either.
as long as your OK. The AI, and in particular the Leinster Championship are farcical atm. What was your thoughts whilst watching the Leinster draw these last few years??
Quote from: Orchard park on November 20, 2018, 09:14:52 AM
Well said O'Rourke...
I see it here in Limerick, na. piarsaigh grow into a Kilmavud Crokes while other city clubs flounder and west limerick continues to be depopulated
How do you do resolve that issue? Splitting a County like Dublin is one thing where there are natural demarcation lines but a club is a more grass roots organisation.
I don't know the geography of the Na Piarsigh nor the Dublin club catchment areas but I cannot see how you would split out a club to create a new one bar the traditional row and walk out.
Quote from: JoG2 on November 20, 2018, 11:02:07 AM
as long as your OK. The AI, and in particular the Leinster Championship are farcical atm. What was your thoughts whilst watching the Leinster draw these last few years??
Agreed. But Kildare and Meath have to take a some portion of the responsibility. While Dublin have improved hugely in the last decade, they haven't even stood still. And they haven't got the de-population excuses that many counties have. If they were at the Mayo/Kerry level (which they should be), then we would have had decent games in Leinster every year. Cork are similarly gone to sheight for no apparent reason. But that's an aside.
What O'Rourke is of course right in is identifying migration out of rural towns and villages as having a huge impact on the competitiveness of many counties, and that's only going to get worse. But his "solution" (the splitting of Dublin) doesn't in any way address the problem!
It's a bigger issue than the GAA, as he mentioned it's post offices, garda stations, pubs, shops, etc etc all on the decrease. The IDA gives employment grants to companies who set up outside Dublin (X thousand per head). Maybe that should be extended to companies who choose to move jobs from Dublin to country (outside commuter belt). And Charlie McCreevy's decentralisation program should be re-hashed. It would have helped a whole heap had they had the balls to push it through. No doubt it would have pissed off a thousand people or so (for a short time only I suggest - I'm sure it's lovely living down the country in the fresh air, cheaper pints ;D, less crowded classrooms etc), but it would have a huge positive impact for local economies, and local GAA clubs!
Really not sure how splitting Kilmacud makes any difference. They struggle as it is to find pitches for all their teams.
Quote from: Hound on November 20, 2018, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on November 20, 2018, 11:02:07 AM
as long as your OK. The AI, and in particular the Leinster Championship are farcical atm. What was your thoughts whilst watching the Leinster draw these last few years??
Agreed. But Kildare and Meath have to take a some portion of the responsibility. While Dublin have improved hugely in the last decade, they haven't even stood still. And they haven't got the de-population excuses that many counties have. If they were at the Mayo/Kerry level (which they should be), then we would have had decent games in Leinster every year. Cork are similarly gone to sheight for no apparent reason. But that's an aside.
What O'Rourke is of course right in is identifying migration out of rural towns and villages as having a huge impact on the competitiveness of many counties, and that's only going to get worse. But his "solution" (the splitting of Dublin) doesn't in any way address the problem!
It's a bigger issue than the GAA, as he mentioned it's post offices, garda stations, pubs, shops, etc etc all on the decrease. The IDA gives employment grants to companies who set up outside Dublin (X thousand per head). Maybe that should be extended to companies who choose to move jobs from Dublin to country (outside commuter belt). And Charlie McCreevy's decentralisation program should be re-hashed. It would have helped a whole heap had they had the balls to push it through. No doubt it would have pissed off a thousand people or so (for a short time only I suggest - I'm sure it's lovely living down the country in the fresh air, cheaper pints ;D, less crowded classrooms etc), but it would have a huge positive impact for local economies, and local GAA clubs!
Really not sure how splitting Kilmacud makes any difference. They struggle as it is to find pitches for all their teams.
Ha! It's Kildare and Meath's fault!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: LeoMc on November 20, 2018, 12:46:49 PM
Quote from: Orchard park on November 20, 2018, 09:14:52 AM
Well said O'Rourke...
I see it here in Limerick, na. piarsaigh grow into a Kilmavud Crokes while other city clubs flounder and west limerick continues to be depopulated
How do you do resolve that issue? Splitting a County like Dublin is one thing where there are natural demarcation lines but a club is a more grass roots organisation.
I don't know the geography of the Na Piarsigh nor the Dublin club catchment areas but I cannot see how you would split out a club to create a new one bar the traditional row and walk out.
I propose a new steering committee for Dublin headed by Mickey Harte and staffed exclusively by Arles (Killeen/Kilcruise/Killanybodythatmoves) natives. That should do it.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on November 20, 2018, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 20, 2018, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on November 20, 2018, 11:02:07 AM
as long as your OK. The AI, and in particular the Leinster Championship are farcical atm. What was your thoughts whilst watching the Leinster draw these last few years??
Agreed. But Kildare and Meath have to take a some portion of the responsibility. While Dublin have improved hugely in the last decade, they haven't even stood still. And they haven't got the de-population excuses that many counties have. If they were at the Mayo/Kerry level (which they should be), then we would have had decent games in Leinster every year. Cork are similarly gone to sheight for no apparent reason. But that's an aside.
What O'Rourke is of course right in is identifying migration out of rural towns and villages as having a huge impact on the competitiveness of many counties, and that's only going to get worse. But his "solution" (the splitting of Dublin) doesn't in any way address the problem!
It's a bigger issue than the GAA, as he mentioned it's post offices, garda stations, pubs, shops, etc etc all on the decrease. The IDA gives employment grants to companies who set up outside Dublin (X thousand per head). Maybe that should be extended to companies who choose to move jobs from Dublin to country (outside commuter belt). And Charlie McCreevy's decentralisation program should be re-hashed. It would have helped a whole heap had they had the balls to push it through. No doubt it would have pissed off a thousand people or so (for a short time only I suggest - I'm sure it's lovely living down the country in the fresh air, cheaper pints ;D, less crowded classrooms etc), but it would have a huge positive impact for local economies, and local GAA clubs!
Really not sure how splitting Kilmacud makes any difference. They struggle as it is to find pitches for all their teams.
Ha! It's Kildare and Meath's fault!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yep, that's exactly what I said ::)
Lillyshitebags have been a disgrace to the jersey, etc.
Wasn't Colm O'Rourke one of those people that said in 2011 Dublin winning the All Ireland would be great for the football championship?
I think we should leave well enough alone. These events happen in cycles. Splitting Dublin in half would be a disaster for Dublin as it would create more of a level playing field and nullify their recent monopoly on Gaelic football. Better to leave it as it is. Sooner or later some Leinster County might fluke a title and think of the euphoria that will bring to that county. There may be a half full stadium to witness it. But it will have been worth the long wait.
Just sit back and enjoy this era for what it is Dublin domination.
Or Laythrum might just work harder......
Say Dublin was split in two. What would happen then when either Dublin north or Dublin south win the next 6 All Ireland's between them
Quote from: Dinny Breen on November 20, 2018, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: Hound on November 20, 2018, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on November 20, 2018, 11:02:07 AM
as long as your OK. The AI, and in particular the Leinster Championship are farcical atm. What was your thoughts whilst watching the Leinster draw these last few years??
Agreed. But Kildare and Meath have to take a some portion of the responsibility. While Dublin have improved hugely in the last decade, they haven't even stood still. And they haven't got the de-population excuses that many counties have. If they were at the Mayo/Kerry level (which they should be), then we would have had decent games in Leinster every year. Cork are similarly gone to sheight for no apparent reason. But that's an aside.
What O'Rourke is of course right in is identifying migration out of rural towns and villages as having a huge impact on the competitiveness of many counties, and that's only going to get worse. But his "solution" (the splitting of Dublin) doesn't in any way address the problem!
It's a bigger issue than the GAA, as he mentioned it's post offices, garda stations, pubs, shops, etc etc all on the decrease. The IDA gives employment grants to companies who set up outside Dublin (X thousand per head). Maybe that should be extended to companies who choose to move jobs from Dublin to country (outside commuter belt). And Charlie McCreevy's decentralisation program should be re-hashed. It would have helped a whole heap had they had the balls to push it through. No doubt it would have pissed off a thousand people or so (for a short time only I suggest - I'm sure it's lovely living down the country in the fresh air, cheaper pints ;D, less crowded classrooms etc), but it would have a huge positive impact for local economies, and local GAA clubs!
Really not sure how splitting Kilmacud makes any difference. They struggle as it is to find pitches for all their teams.
Ha! It's Kildare and Meath's fault!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You couldn't make it up.
Despite the fact that Kildare have won their first AI title since 1965 he reckons they 'haven't even stood still'.
There are none as blind as those who cannot see.
Quote from: mup on November 20, 2018, 06:17:46 PM
Despite the fact that Kildare have won their first AI title since 1965 he reckons they 'haven't even stood still'.
There are none as blind as those who cannot see.
So in this period of Dublin domination (2011 to 2018), you are disputing that Kildare "haven't even stood still"? Indeed "there are none as blind as those who cannot see".
In 2011, Dublin beat Kildare by 1 point in Leinster. (A single solitary point!). Kildare brushed aside Ulster runners up Derry in the qualifiers and played a great game against Donegal in the quarter-finals. It was a very even game, could have gone either way, level after 70 mins, and took a once-in-a-lifetime score by a Donegal half back to win it with virtually the last kick of the game at the end of extra time.
In 2012, after losing to Meath in Leinster, Kildare re-grouped and won 3 games in the qualifiers (nice enough draws in fairness) to get back to the quarter-finals. To win the All Ireland, Kildare would have needed to beat Cork, Donegal and Mayo. Donegal, who were at pretty much the exact same level as Kildare just one year previously, beat both Cork and Mayo to win the All Ireland. Whereas Kildare got well beaten by Cork and the dream died. The regression had begun and not even a sign of those big bully Dubs.
The regression of course continued in the subsequent years. Losing to Westmeath, Meath and humiliated by Carlow in Leinster. Surrenderings against Dublin (16 pts, 19 pts and 9 pts), Kerry (27 pts) (jeez, good job you're not in Munster lads and have to play Kerry every year!) and Mayo (9 pts). White flag, take my short pants down and slap me on the arse, surrenderings.
Finally we've seen some progression post the Carlow humiliation last year. Still not to the level of the 2011 team, but at least promise that things are going in the right direction.
In all those years, Kildare teams at underage have never feared the Dubs, and hopefully some of them will come through to get some backbone back into the white jersey. Because splitting Dublin will not improve Kildare! Kildare needs to improve Kildare.
Quote from: JoG2 on November 20, 2018, 11:02:07 AM
Quote from: TheGreatest on November 20, 2018, 10:16:10 AM
I agree with a lot about what he says and some good points made above about large towns, I.E one team in Portlaose of 15k etc.
But this:
The very obvious thing to do is to divide Dublin up into several different teams. That suggestion causes palpitations among the Dublin hierarchy who just want to let the good times roll. That recommendation was made more than 15 years ago by a committee of top brains in Croke Park but has been ignored by all those at central level since, and of course Dublin swept it under the carpet as fast as possible. There it remains, depriving hundreds of young Dublin footballers of playing underage for some Dublin team and ensuring great adult footballers are frozen out.
Would Dublin supporters warm to these divisions and turn out in numbers in Croke Park? Would there be more at Dublin Fingal versus Dublin South than Dublin against Wicklow or Wexford? Even Jim Gavin can't make that look exciting. The present Leinster Championship is a dead duck. It is not retrievable. Hoping that something will turn up is not a policy.
1. Over my dead body and the body of all Dublin supporters.
2. If it did happen I would never support a divisional Dublin team, I know others wouldnt either.
as long as your OK. The AI, and in particular the Leinster Championship are farcical atm. What was your thoughts whilst watching the Leinster draw these last few years??
Being honest, in the noughties getting embarrassed out the door in Croke Park and some absolutely devastating defeats, since then I have preached that the only thing that matters is the AI quarter final onwards. Straight knockout. I take the league more seriously than Leinster and not really bothered by it. The league is great competition and a pity it doesn't get the respect it deserves.
I am in the 2 tier revamp boat, I go as far to get rid of provisional or play them separately early season to Champions league format 4 x 4.
There are only 6 competitions really worth winning at the start of the year.national league,four provincials and obviously the all ireland.you are advocating getting rid of four of them.the only thing keeping county football alive in some counties is the chance of winning an Ulster or a Connaught.counties in Leinster don't even have that small hope to cling on to.
County football is in terminal decline not just because of the entertainment on offer,but also because many counties are playing without a full hand.some of the most talented players are opting out as there is no chance of winning anything.and for the commitment level required these days,you have to at least have a slim chance of winning.
If Dublin were split in two,say north and south,both would automatically be in the top 3 or 4 favourites to win Sam.it would revitalise the championship I think.i can understand Dublin supporters being against it,but honestly if something isn't done soon the all ireland won't really be worth winning.the decline of county football isn't something that might happen,we are already far down the road i would suggest in at least 20 if not more counties.
Quote from: east down gael on November 21, 2018, 11:31:18 AM
There are only 6 competitions really worth winning at the start of the year.national league,four provincials and obviously the all ireland.you are advocating getting rid of four of them.the only thing keeping county football alive in some counties is the chance of winning an Ulster or a Connaught.counties in Leinster don't even have that small hope to cling on to.
County football is in terminal decline not just because of the entertainment on offer,but also because many counties are playing without a full hand.some of the most talented players are opting out as there is no chance of winning anything.and for the commitment level required these days,you have to at least have a slim chance of winning.
If Dublin were split in two,say north and south,both would automatically be in the top 3 or 4 favourites to win Sam.it would revitalise the championship I think.i can understand Dublin supporters being against it,but honestly if something isn't done soon the all ireland won't really be worth winning.the decline of county football isn't something that might happen,we are already far down the road i would suggest in at least 20 if not more counties.
That is a fair point, however outside of Ulster and until recently Connaught, its a dead duck.
When did football start to decline, 2011 was it?
Or only in the last 4 years or was it in 2002 ! :)
Not sure if football has declined so much as interest in it has. And it's not all down to Dublin's dominance. To play now requires a lifestyle change,and some are choosing not to go down that path. Even Dublin have had this happen with o'carroll.
There's not much point in continuously saying Kildare/Meath/cork etc should get up to Dublin's level.the point is they can't,and won't in the future either. No one is at their level.the odd time a mayo or a Kerry or a Tyrone might challenge them,maybe even beat them.but it will be a blip.this will lead to even the stronger counties possibly going the way Meath,down,Derry etc have already went.
Quote from: Hound on November 21, 2018, 08:08:54 AM
Quote from: mup on November 20, 2018, 06:17:46 PM
Despite the fact that Kildare have won their first AI title since 1965 he reckons they 'haven't even stood still'.
There are none as blind as those who cannot see.
So in this period of Dublin domination (2011 to 2018), you are disputing that Kildare "haven't even stood still"? Indeed "there are none as blind as those who cannot see".
In 2011, Dublin beat Kildare by 1 point in Leinster. (A single solitary point!). Kildare brushed aside Ulster runners up Derry in the qualifiers and played a great game against Donegal in the quarter-finals. It was a very even game, could have gone either way, level after 70 mins, and took a once-in-a-lifetime score by a Donegal half back to win it with virtually the last kick of the game at the end of extra time.
In 2012, after losing to Meath in Leinster, Kildare re-grouped and won 3 games in the qualifiers (nice enough draws in fairness) to get back to the quarter-finals. To win the All Ireland, Kildare would have needed to beat Cork, Donegal and Mayo. Donegal, who were at pretty much the exact same level as Kildare just one year previously, beat both Cork and Mayo to win the All Ireland. Whereas Kildare got well beaten by Cork and the dream died. The regression had begun and not even a sign of those big bully Dubs.
The regression of course continued in the subsequent years. Losing to Westmeath, Meath and humiliated by Carlow in Leinster. Surrenderings against Dublin (16 pts, 19 pts and 9 pts), Kerry (27 pts) (jeez, good job you're not in Munster lads and have to play Kerry every year!) and Mayo (9 pts). White flag, take my short pants down and slap me on the arse, surrenderings.
Finally we've seen some progression post the Carlow humiliation last year. Still not to the level of the 2011 team, but at least promise that things are going in the right direction.
In all those years, Kildare teams at underage have never feared the Dubs, and hopefully some of them will come through to get some backbone back into the white jersey. Because splitting Dublin will not improve Kildare! Kildare needs to improve Kildare.
So in one post you are hoping they will come through to put some backbone into the white jersey. Only a couple of posts earlier you call them 'lilyshitebags'.
It's posts like that never would endear me to the typical jump on the bandwagon type Dublin supporter that are all too prevalent nowadays. Because I know the more honest and genuine Dublin support would never make a comment like that.
No surprise you haven't mentioned the Mayo game last year. Although in fairness you Dubs too tend to forget certain times in GAA history. Just in case you are wondering the GAA had a history before 2011 when your bandwagon was being built.
Since you quoted me could you also point out where I said splitting Dublin would be a good idea? I don't expect ever to get an answer to that one.
Where did this idea come from that Kildare is a serious football county?
All evidence points to the opposite
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 21, 2018, 06:59:26 PM
Where did this idea come from that Kildare is a serious football county?
All evidence points to the opposite
I can't understand it either.
Splitting Dublin is just a non runner for me. Nonsense.
How about splitting up New Zealand into North and South islands to give others a chance?
England have 100,000 more adults playing rugby than Ireland does. France and S. Africa 5X our numbers. In recent years we can beat them. Why?
Look at the County Manager Merry Go-Round thread. Madness out there. Recent Ros. manager appointment the latest one. How is that going to end up?!
Quote from: moysider on November 21, 2018, 11:22:39 PM
Splitting Dublin is just a non runner for me. Nonsense.
How about splitting up New Zealand into North and South islands to give others a chance?
England have 100,000 more adults playing rugby than Ireland does. France and S. Africa 5X our numbers. In recent years we can beat them. Why?
Look at the County Manager Merry Go-Round thread. Madness out there. Recent Ros. manager appointment the latest one. How is that going to end up?!
To be fair McStay who managed Roscommon the last 3 years and the new appointment Anthony Cunningham have been residents in Roscommon for years. I'd look more to true outsiders with no connection to the counties they are about to manage, for example Offaly with John Maughan, Leitrim with Terry Hyland,Down with Paddy Tally and ask how is that going to end up?
So if we don't split Dublin and every County appoints an insider as manager. .....
What happens then?
Quote from: Blowitupref on November 22, 2018, 02:41:09 AM
Quote from: moysider on November 21, 2018, 11:22:39 PM
Splitting Dublin is just a non runner for me. Nonsense.
How about splitting up New Zealand into North and South islands to give others a chance?
England have 100,000 more adults playing rugby than Ireland does. France and S. Africa 5X our numbers. In recent years we can beat them. Why?
Look at the County Manager Merry Go-Round thread. Madness out there. Recent Ros. manager appointment the latest one. How is that going to end up?!
To be fair McStay who managed Roscommon the last 3 years and the new appointment Anthony Cunningham have been residents in Roscommon for years. I'd look more to true outsiders with no connection to the counties they are about to manage, for example Offaly with John Maughan, Leitrim with Terry Hyland,Down with Paddy Tally and ask how is that going to end up?
neither mcstay nor Cunningham can be considered outsiders no matter where their native loyalties remain.....
Quote from: moysider on November 21, 2018, 11:22:39 PM
Splitting Dublin is just a non runner for me. Nonsense.
How about splitting up New Zealand into North and South islands to give others a chance?
England have 100,000 more adults playing rugby than Ireland does. France and S. Africa 5X our numbers. In recent years we can beat them. Why?
Look at the County Manager Merry Go-Round thread. Madness out there. Recent Ros. manager appointment the latest one. How is that going to end up?!
All that's fine as far as it goes moy but, as Colm O'Rourke said, it's not what's at issue here.
Dublin now has around one third of the population of the Republic. (Dunno the taig/prod breakdown in Norn Iron so I'll stick with the other 26.)
Government estimates are that by 2040, half the country will live in the greater Dublin area.
One team to represent one third of the entire country is not good either Dublin or the rest. O'Rourke makes the point that they are many club players in Dublin who would walk onto any other senior side in the land and he's dead right.
There are only so many places on a football panel anywhere and Dublin could easily field another team or two to compete with the rest.
The Dublin set up at club and county level is elitist, pure and simple. Nothing wrong with that. They are making best use of what is available to them but it comes at a mighty price to the GAA within the county and to the rest of the country also.
Massive clubs like Ballyboden and Kilmacud, to mention only two, makes have hundreds of kids but only one senior team.
Some will drop out anyway as they move up through the grades but many more will leave because there's no room for them to play any higher.
That team will be the elite of the club as only the best can fight their way to the top. So it's no wonder Jim Gavin has any amount of top class players pressing hard for a place on the first fifteen.
The Dubs will never fail due to a lack of interest or motivation. There isn't a single player who will ever be able to take it easy, thinking there is no else to fill his shoes.
I don't want to upset any genuine Dub fans here but the loss to the GAA in general terms is a pretty high one.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on November 22, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Quote from: moysider on November 21, 2018, 11:22:39 PM
Splitting Dublin is just a non runner for me. Nonsense.
How about splitting up New Zealand into North and South islands to give others a chance?
England have 100,000 more adults playing rugby than Ireland does. France and S. Africa 5X our numbers. In recent years we can beat them. Why?
Look at the County Manager Merry Go-Round thread. Madness out there. Recent Ros. manager appointment the latest one. How is that going to end up?!
All that's fine as far as it goes moy but, as Colm O'Rourke said, it's not what's at issue here.
Dublin now has around one third of the population of the Republic. (Dunno the taig/prod breakdown in Norn Iron so I'll stick with the other 26.)
Government estimates are that by 2040, half the country will live in the greater Dublin area.
One team to represent one third of the entire country is not good either Dublin or the rest. O'Rourke makes the point that they are many club players in Dublin who would walk onto any other senior side in the land and he's dead right.
There are only so many places on a football panel anywhere and Dublin could easily field another team or two to compete with the rest.
The Dublin set up at club and county level is elitist, pure and simple. Nothing wrong with that. They are making best use of what is available to them but it comes at a mighty price to the GAA within the county and to the rest of the country also.
Massive clubs like Ballyboden and Kilmacud, to mention only two, makes have hundreds of kids but only one senior team.
Some will drop out anyway as they move up through the grades but many more will leave because there's no room for them to play any higher.
That team will be the elite of the club as only the best can fight their way to the top. So it's no wonder Jim Gavin has any amount of top class players pressing hard for a place on the first fifteen.
The Dubs will never fail due to a lack of interest or motivation. There isn't a single player who will ever be able to take it easy, thinking there is no else to fill his shoes.
I don't want to upset any genuine Dub fans here but the loss to the GAA in general terms is a pretty high one.
I dunno. For a start the Greater Dublin Area is not County Dublin and before long will probably include most of the province of Leinster. The National Transport Authority has defined the Greater Dublin Area as including the counties of Dublin, Meath, Kildare, and Wicklow. So if the population of this region rises as expected should we be expecting other counties in the region like Meath and Kildare to field multiple teams also?
Census 2016 results show that Meath was one of the fastest growing counties in the country with Meath's population growing by 5.9 per cent in five years to 195,044. I'll put it this way. Meath has a way bigger population now than when they last were winning AIs. The population issue is relevant for some counties but not for Colm's Meath or Kildare either. Reality is that when Dubs are playing in an AI final a good proportion of the city population wouldn't even be aware of it and others would resent it.
Quote from: Blowitupref on November 22, 2018, 02:41:09 AM
Quote from: moysider on November 21, 2018, 11:22:39 PM
Splitting Dublin is just a non runner for me. Nonsense.
How about splitting up New Zealand into North and South islands to give others a chance?
England have 100,000 more adults playing rugby than Ireland does. France and S. Africa 5X our numbers. In recent years we can beat them. Why?
Look at the County Manager Merry Go-Round thread. Madness out there. Recent Ros. manager appointment the latest one. How is that going to end up?!
To be fair McStay who managed Roscommon the last 3 years and the new appointment Anthony Cunningham have been residents in Roscommon for years. I'd look more to true outsiders with no connection to the counties they are about to manage, for example Offaly with John Maughan, Leitrim with Terry Hyland,Down with Paddy Tally and ask how is that going to end up?
Just to clarify. I have no problem with a manager from outside a county. Residency is not an issue. But it has to be somebody that can do it. Maughan did a job in Clare. His way worked at that time. Mickey Moran was great in Mayo. Arguably gave us one of our greatest years - in one year before being shafted:-\
Quote from: moysider on November 22, 2018, 11:34:12 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on November 22, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Quote from: moysider on November 21, 2018, 11:22:39 PM
Splitting Dublin is just a non runner for me. Nonsense.
How about splitting up New Zealand into North and South islands to give others a chance?
England have 100,000 more adults playing rugby than Ireland does. France and S. Africa 5X our numbers. In recent years we can beat them. Why?
Look at the County Manager Merry Go-Round thread. Madness out there. Recent Ros. manager appointment the latest one. How is that going to end up?!
All that's fine as far as it goes moy but, as Colm O'Rourke said, it's not what's at issue here.
Dublin now has around one third of the population of the Republic. (Dunno the taig/prod breakdown in Norn Iron so I'll stick with the other 26.)
Government estimates are that by 2040, half the country will live in the greater Dublin area.
One team to represent one third of the entire country is not good either Dublin or the rest. O'Rourke makes the point that they are many club players in Dublin who would walk onto any other senior side in the land and he's dead right.
There are only so many places on a football panel anywhere and Dublin could easily field another team or two to compete with the rest.
The Dublin set up at club and county level is elitist, pure and simple. Nothing wrong with that. They are making best use of what is available to them but it comes at a mighty price to the GAA within the county and to the rest of the country also.
Massive clubs like Ballyboden and Kilmacud, to mention only two, makes have hundreds of kids but only one senior team.
Some will drop out anyway as they move up through the grades but many more will leave because there's no room for them to play any higher.
That team will be the elite of the club as only the best can fight their way to the top. So it's no wonder Jim Gavin has any amount of top class players pressing hard for a place on the first fifteen.
The Dubs will never fail due to a lack of interest or motivation. There isn't a single player who will ever be able to take it easy, thinking there is no else to fill his shoes.
I don't want to upset any genuine Dub fans here but the loss to the GAA in general terms is a pretty high one.
I dunno. For a start the Greater Dublin Area is not County Dublin and before long will probably include most of the province of Leinster. The National Transport Authority has defined the Greater Dublin Area as including the counties of Dublin, Meath, Kildare, and Wicklow. So if the population of this region rises as expected should we be expecting other counties in the region like Meath and Kildare to field multiple teams also?
Census 2016 results show that Meath was one of the fastest growing counties in the country with Meath's population growing by 5.9 per cent in five years to 195,044. I'll put it this way. Meath has a way bigger population now than when they last were winning AIs. The population issue is relevant for some counties but not for Colm's Meath or Kildare either. Reality is that when Dubs are playing in an AI final a good proportion of the city population wouldn't even be aware of it and others would resent it.
I dunno either and that's a fact. To begin with, I got my figures courtesy of Simon Coveney and he was referring to the Greater Dublin Area. There is no formal definition of the GDA but to the govt. planners, it's the territory inside a line stretching from Drogheda through Navan,
That's what Coveney was referring to.
County Dublin, according to the 2016 census had 28% of the state's population and this was projected to rise to 40% by 2040. Already, those estimates appear to be conservative.
Put another way, going by the stats from that census, Dublin at present has the same pop as a total of 15 other counties, working back from Leitrim.THe gap between Dublin and the rest is steadily growing.
This is why O'Rourke refers to the number of Dublin players, good enough to play intercounty football anywhere else but who will never get a chance to wear a county jersey. Same goes for Dublin clubs- maybe a hundred or more kids milling about at the weekend but with about the same number of senior, junior and u20 players as,say, Mitchels or Stephenites or Ballintubber in Mayo but they have a much smaller membership.
Let's say that those three have a combined membership equal to that of Ballyboden- okay so far? But they will all have senior sides (and junior, u20 etc.)
So if you have five hundred kids and you want the greatest number possible to play with their respective clubs until they retire, which way should you go, one mega club or three smaller ones?
I know' Boden well and like Erin's Isle that I know a lot better, you couldn't get nicer, more committed members and team mentors there than anywhere else. But the size of the bigger Dublin clubs may produce quality players at the business end but at a cost of a horrendous drop out rate through the lower grades.
The real crux of the matter where Dublin is concerned is not at intercounty level but it begins at a much earlier stage.
https://m.independent.ie/business/jobs/dublin-swallows-up-majority-of-new-job-opportunities-37557650.html
Rest of us may as well amalgamate :-\
Or regionalised things to 6 teams
Dublin, East Leinster, South and West Leinster, Connacht, Munster and Ulster