China Coronavirus

[Redhand Santa]

Australia and New Zealand are two more examples of were very tough lockdowns have stopped the spread of covid and resulted in very few deaths occurring from it. I actually can't see how anyone can argue they don't work if done right.

[GetOverTheBar]

Australia and New Zealand are two more examples of were very tough lockdowns have stopped the spread of covid and resulted in very few deaths occurring from it. I actually can't see how anyone can argue they don't work if done right.

I'm all for a total lockdown, one off, on condition there is no more after that and track and trace actually, thereafter works when they have a handle on it.

The lockdowns we have had so far are diluted nonsense, especially this most recent one when schools stayed open.

[themac_23]

Ive completely changed my view on lockdowns from March, in March I was completely for lockdowns in a short term basis to get a handle on things but it has now become the go to solution which when you start to look at the data as a whole as opposed to just Covid data, lockdowns make no difference to overall death rates. I came across this interview with Dr John Lee on TalkRadio (I know I know) he makes some excellent points, in fact the best point I think he argued that a positive test should not be be called a case given that most of the those testing positive have no symptoms and no effect on them, there should be a distinction between cases and people with positive tests. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHAJFQtnSVw&feature=youtu.be there's a link to the interview.

I am not saying I fully agree but what I am saying is when we look at the data and then we hear the figures released yesterday regarding the level of unemployment I think there are serious questions to be asked.

as stated, Covid, at the minute is a serious squirrel for the government and is masking a lot of the serious questions that need to be asked about how they have allowed the NHS to get to the stage where, every single winter it is beyond capacity and on its knees with staff being drained of every ounce they have.

I think there's plenty of evidence that when things start to get out of control if you catch it early enough lockdowns/restrictions do work if implemented properly.

You only have to look at the North v the South of Ireland on the same Island to see how restrictions/lockdowns can help. In the north we've had half attempts at them and politicians fighting against them since the summer. The south has been stricter and clearer on there approach and despite having 3 times the population of the north they half the numbers in hospitals and a lot less deaths. The economy is going to suffer if you don't lockdown as shown in other countries and as bad as people losing their jobs is it's not as bad as some family having to cope with a death.

People keep saying oh the hospitals would be full anyway and covid isn't a huge factor. But no matter what way you look at there has been 15-20% excess deaths this year compared to the previous 5 years (I'd say around 800 caused by covid judging by respiratory numbers and the other 800 caused by the knockon effects of the hospitals being under pressure due to covid). And this is despite the fact we had the severe lockdown early in the year.

Also if you want another example of how restrictions v non restrictions works out look at Sweden v it's neighbours. They tried a soft approach and have had a a huge amount of more deaths compared to their neighbours and their economy has still suffered.

Our problem in the north with recent restrictions was they weren't quick enough, strict enough and didn't last long enough. They did help slow the virus down a bit but with people really stepping up rule breaking and things opening in recent weeks there is a potential disaster zone weighting to happen early in the new year. You can see the problems already building in the hospitals.

In fairness now, we in the North don't look great at the moment. But the whole summer we hardly had a death. I don't like this North v South point scoring. We clearly have a problem in our schools. It's undeniable.

And the reason we hardly had a death in the summer was we got the virus under control through a tough lockdown, people continued to follow some kind of rules early summer and favourable weather meant there was less indoor mixing.

The south have also shown that you can open schools and still keep a handle on things.

I think some people want to play it all down so they can do what they want and not be told what to do. But behind every one of those 1,500 excess deaths this year is a story and a life cut short that shouldn't be ignored or accepted so you can carry on like nothing is happening.

we keep saying lockdowns work, but the first lockdown working was very much a combination of many things, for example the first lockdown came at a time when people could spend much more time outside, there is more of a case that ventilation and fresh air were the main driver for infection rates being lower, people sitting in gardens, spending time outside to later hours etc oh yeah and the fact that the schools were closed.

I know what you're saying regards the 1500 people dying, and 100% agree every single one of them families had to go through the pain of losing a loved one, so not to sound heartless I would ask, of those 1500 how many were above the life expectancy? again, not trying to make little of it but I think sometimes you have to weigh that up, I lost a family member to 'Pneumonia' few years ago, was 82 years of age but to say they would have lived much longer had they not caught it would be clutching at straws.

all im saying is that the NHS being over run isn't new, but the narrative is that it is only because of Covid that it is stretched, that is simply untrue, is it a massive contributing factor to it being over run this winter? yes it is, but is it the only reason? no.

Unemployment in NI rose to 3.7% with most of those Jobs lost in retail and manufacturing, the sad reality is that those jobs will not be replaced in that retail has now pretty much shifted to mostly online, accelerating the decline of high streets by circa 10yrs and with manufacturing now downsizing and utilising machinery more.

at some stage there has to be a discussion where the answer isn't automatically 'lockdown'

[BennyCake]

The problem with a lockdown is that it's not a lockdown.

If this was September, a lot more places would be closed. But governments are afraid to, because people would complain as they couldn't go out to buy Xmas pyjamas and traders would miss out on Christmas trade, and the government would have to compensate them. That's what it's boiling down to.

We are going to see one hell of a shitstorm in January.

[imtommygunn]

I do agree with the bits you say there on the NHS. I think covid is being used as an excuse for how stretched the NHS is. It is most certainly not helping but the NHS here is in the worst state of the whole of the UK and it's not great in the rest of the UK. It's not the fault of the people who work in the NHS either. It's the fault of the governments and how they are funding it and how then they are allocating that funding. e.g. how many layers of middle management are required? is bureaucracy taking over from the real work?

We are only doing half assed lockdowns so can never really tell if they fully work.

[marty34]

The problem with a lockdown is that it's not a lockdown.

If this was September, a lot more places would be closed. But governments are afraid to, because people would complain as they couldn't go out to buy Xmas pyjamas and traders would miss out on Christmas trade, and the government would have to compensate them. That's what it's boiling down to.

We are going to see one hell of a shitstorm in January.

I agree.

People are the problem.  The sense of entitlement is unreal.

I need to queue at Primark for over an hour...like wtf?

People are the problem but I understand it's not good for the economy.

[imtommygunn]

It is not purely people though. It is government decisions. It is how they police it. It's really the whole lot of it combined. Basically the whole thing up here is a shitshow.

[GetOverTheBar]

The problem with a lockdown is that it's not a lockdown.

If this was September, a lot more places would be closed. But governments are afraid to, because people would complain as they couldn't go out to buy Xmas pyjamas and traders would miss out on Christmas trade, and the government would have to compensate them. That's what it's boiling down to.

We are going to see one hell of a shitstorm in January.

I agree.

People are the problem.  The sense of entitlement is unreal.

I need to queue at Primark for over an hour...like wtf?

People are the problem but I understand it's not good for the economy.

Not to defend this, because it winds me up. But when you close literally everything else, what else are people supposed to do? Going to Primark is now their evening meal, few pints, gym session, game of 5 a side, training.

Ever see as many people out walking Cuilcagh as you have this year? When you narrow down what people can do......of course you are going to end up in a mess like the Primark scenarios as that's basically their social lives now. Work and Primark.

It's going to continue this cycle, but over the last month, the tide has really turned, most people are openly saying they don't give a....This board does not represent the views I get in real life interaction, nowhere near it. Real life interaction is completely dismissive now.

[themac_23]

I do agree with the bits you say there on the NHS. I think covid is being used as an excuse for how stretched the NHS is. It is most certainly not helping but the NHS here is in the worst state of the whole of the UK and it's not great in the rest of the UK. It's not the fault of the people who work in the NHS either. It's the fault of the governments and how they are funding it and how then they are allocating that funding. e.g. how many layers of middle management are required? is bureaucracy taking over from the real work?

We are only doing half assed lockdowns so can never really tell if they fully work.

I agree, I just think there is a narrative that Covid came along and ruined a well oiled NHS that until this point was grand. My ex partner was a nurse so ive seen first hand the stress they were under in previous years, it always looked like they were under funded, under staffed and most importantly under valued. one thing I hope that comes from the last year is a complete overhaul and rethink of the NHS strategy, unfortunately I cant see it and to be honest the NHS being on its knees, along with a crippling debt, Brexit and massive unemployment in my eyes is all gearing very much towards a lot more privatisation of the health service, which isn't going to be good. but thats another discussion for another day.

[BennyCake]

It is not purely people though. It is government decisions. It is how they police it. It's really the whole lot of it combined. Basically the whole thing up here is a shitshow.

Yes, but this isn't about avoiding a parking ticket or not paying your TV license. People shouldn't need to be policed on this. We all know what to do. But clearly, many people aren't doing it.

[themac_23]

The problem with a lockdown is that it's not a lockdown.

If this was September, a lot more places would be closed. But governments are afraid to, because people would complain as they couldn't go out to buy Xmas pyjamas and traders would miss out on Christmas trade, and the government would have to compensate them. That's what it's boiling down to.

We are going to see one hell of a shitstorm in January.

I agree.

People are the problem.  The sense of entitlement is unreal.

I need to queue at Primark for over an hour...like wtf?

People are the problem but I understand it's not good for the economy.

Not to defend this, because it winds me up. But when you close literally everything else, what else are people supposed to do? Going to Primark is now their evening meal, few pints, gym session, game of 5 a side, training.

Ever see as many people out walking Cuilcagh as you have this year? When you narrow down what people can do......of course you are going to end up in a mess like the Primark scenarios as that's basically their social lives now. Work and Primark.

It's going to continue this cycle, but over the last month, the tide has really turned, most people are openly saying they don't give a....This board does not represent the views I get in real life interaction, nowhere near it. Real life interaction is completely dismissive now.

this is the crux of it, people do not care and have stopped listening, really what they needed to do was the the main points and drive them home ie wearing a mask, keeping distance, sanitising hands and limiting time spent indoors. they are things that make a difference. Closing places with little to no data to support their closure (ie gyms) just makes people pissed off and makes them discard the things they can do which were making a difference.

[NAG1]

It is not purely people though. It is government decisions. It is how they police it. It's really the whole lot of it combined. Basically the whole thing up here is a shitshow.

Yes, but this isn't about avoiding a parking ticket or not paying your TV license. People shouldn't need to be policed on this. We all know what to do. But clearly, many people aren't doing it.

Agreed

But not helped by incompetence at government level.

Stay in dont go out, dont mix with anyone.
Here is money to go and eat cheap, get out there and take advantage.
Oh wait get back in again don't mix don't go out.

[imtommygunn]

It is not purely people though. It is government decisions. It is how they police it. It's really the whole lot of it combined. Basically the whole thing up here is a shitshow.

Yes, but this isn't about avoiding a parking ticket or not paying your TV license. People shouldn't need to be policed on this. We all know what to do. But clearly, many people aren't doing it.

What makes that different to people needing policed from stealing, parking in the wrong place etc etc? I don't think it's that much different. When people can take liberties they will. A lot of restaurants and bars when opened when taking the piss. Then bars who were doing everything by the book just get shut on the back of it.

[thebigfella]

The problem with a lockdown is that it's not a lockdown.

If this was September, a lot more places would be closed. But governments are afraid to, because people would complain as they couldn't go out to buy Xmas pyjamas and traders would miss out on Christmas trade, and the government would have to compensate them. That's what it's boiling down to.

We are going to see one hell of a shitstorm in January.

I agree.

People are the problem.  The sense of entitlement is unreal.

I need to queue at Primark for over an hour...like wtf?

People are the problem but I understand it's not good for the economy.

Not to defend this, because it winds me up. But when you close literally everything else, what else are people supposed to do? Going to Primark is now their evening meal, few pints, gym session, game of 5 a side, training.

Ever see as many people out walking Cuilcagh as you have this year? When you narrow down what people can do......of course you are going to end up in a mess like the Primark scenarios as that's basically their social lives now. Work and Primark.

It's going to continue this cycle, but over the last month, the tide has really turned, most people are openly saying they don't give a....This board does not represent the views I get in real life interaction, nowhere near it. Real life interaction is completely dismissive now.

this is the crux of it, people do not care and have stopped listening, really what they needed to do was the the main points and drive them home ie wearing a mask, keeping distance, sanitising hands and limiting time spent indoors. they are things that make a difference. Closing places with little to no data to support their closure (ie gyms) just makes people pissed off and makes them discard the things they can do which were making a difference.

You are contradicting yourself there 

[themac_23]

The problem with a lockdown is that it's not a lockdown.

If this was September, a lot more places would be closed. But governments are afraid to, because people would complain as they couldn't go out to buy Xmas pyjamas and traders would miss out on Christmas trade, and the government would have to compensate them. That's what it's boiling down to.

We are going to see one hell of a shitstorm in January.

I agree.

People are the problem.  The sense of entitlement is unreal.

I need to queue at Primark for over an hour...like wtf?

People are the problem but I understand it's not good for the economy.

Not to defend this, because it winds me up. But when you close literally everything else, what else are people supposed to do? Going to Primark is now their evening meal, few pints, gym session, game of 5 a side, training.

Ever see as many people out walking Cuilcagh as you have this year? When you narrow down what people can do......of course you are going to end up in a mess like the Primark scenarios as that's basically their social lives now. Work and Primark.

It's going to continue this cycle, but over the last month, the tide has really turned, most people are openly saying they don't give a....This board does not represent the views I get in real life interaction, nowhere near it. Real life interaction is completely dismissive now.

this is the crux of it, people do not care and have stopped listening, really what they needed to do was the the main points and drive them home ie wearing a mask, keeping distance, sanitising hands and limiting time spent indoors. they are things that make a difference. Closing places with little to no data to support their closure (ie gyms) just makes people pissed off and makes them discard the things they can do which were making a difference.

You are contradicting yourself there 

How so? there's a difference between limiting time and spending no time. I go to the gym and I feel 100 times safer than anywhere else, ever person wipes down machines before and after use, everything well spaced out and loads of machines not allowed to be used, good ventilation and limited numbers allowed in. admittedly I prob spend less time there now than I used to, I prob do 40 mins max where before I ws prob an hour at least, but maybe lots of that time was spent chatting to people etc so I suppose Covid has made my time management better! lol