China Coronavirus

[naka]

It's possible to see both sides of the argument here. Sid's view is that without what Angelo would describe as covid-vision the virus would spread rapidly as it is doing now*. Whereas Angelo's is that if covid-vision hadn't been the be all and end all, his uncle, Lord have mercy on him, would have received proper care.

I offer my deepest condolences to you Angelo on the death of your uncle and Hound on the death of his relative too.

*Fortunately so far the death toll hasn't reached the heights of the spring.

Thanks.

His illness was likely terminal in any case but it does highlight the dangers of what can happen when Covid becomes the only show in town. What about the number of people out there with undiagnosed cancer and other life threatening illnesses? They are being left behind by the health service as Covid is the only illness that matters. In my uncle's case he lived his life, he got to saw his children grow up, he got to see his grandchildren being born but there are plenty of people now in their 30s/40s/50s who will die from cancer and the likes as a result of resources being centred solely on Covid.

Some of the vicious attacks I have had on here, where my views have completely misrepresented, where I have had words put in my mouth and accusations about wanting people are quite frankly disgraceful.

There needs to be a discussion about the overall impacts of lockdowns but if you dare bring that into the spotlight a number of posters will try and bury you with hysteria and misinformation.

to be fair Angelo you raise valid points on the virus.
its becoming clear that a fair few deaths are happening alongside the virus due to the closure of surgerys/hospitals focussed on the virus etc
we are in a mess because quite simply the health services are not fit for purpose through underfunding
there is no right and wrong but definitely both sides have strong arguments

[Angelo]

It's possible to see both sides of the argument here. Sid's view is that without what Angelo would describe as covid-vision the virus would spread rapidly as it is doing now*. Whereas Angelo's is that if covid-vision hadn't been the be all and end all, his uncle, Lord have mercy on him, would have received proper care.

I offer my deepest condolences to you Angelo on the death of your uncle and Hound on the death of his relative too.

*Fortunately so far the death toll hasn't reached the heights of the spring.

Thanks.

His illness was likely terminal in any case but it does highlight the dangers of what can happen when Covid becomes the only show in town. What about the number of people out there with undiagnosed cancer and other life threatening illnesses? They are being left behind by the health service as Covid is the only illness that matters. In my uncle's case he lived his life, he got to saw his children grow up, he got to see his grandchildren being born but there are plenty of people now in their 30s/40s/50s who will die from cancer and the likes as a result of resources being centred solely on Covid.

Some of the vicious attacks I have had on here, where my views have completely misrepresented, where I have had words put in my mouth and accusations about wanting people are quite frankly disgraceful.

There needs to be a discussion about the overall impacts of lockdowns but if you dare bring that into the spotlight a number of posters will try and bury you with hysteria and misinformation.

to be fair Angelo you raise valid points on the virus.
its becoming clear that a fair few deaths are happening alongside the virus due to the closure of surgerys/hospitals focussed on the virus etc
we are in a mess because quite simply the health services are not fit for purpose through underfunding
there is no right and wrong but definitely both sides have strong arguments

I'm more than willing to listen to the other side but I didn't bring insults in first, I didn't accuse people of wanting others to die first, nor did I accuse people of not caring about the wellbeing of others first.

All these accusations were laid solely at my feet because I had the temerity to question whether lockdown and excessive restrictions will actually cause more problems than they solve.

The more data we get from the virus in Europe recently further strengthens where I stand on this. I could be right or wrong but some of attacks from other posters here for having that viewpoint are bang out of order.

[HiMucker]

Angelo whether you're right or wrong doesn't overly matter here. Not to me anyway.

You're absolutely correct to probe the preconceived concepts, lazy thinking, and in some cases sheer zealotry of contributors.

The number of hugely intolerant replies you've faced - especially those that wish to decry you as an idiot for maintaining an open mind - is completely out of order.

But for God's sake, please do everyone a favour and stop posting the same f**king post in a slightly reworded way, every few hours.

This thread is now unbearable to read. And it's mostly on you.

But wobbler, maybe he just is an idiot?

Not just because he has different views. You have different views on this to many of us and you're not an idiot. You can debate reasonably. But it's obvious the difference between your posts and his posts.
Have you seen him on other threads?

I do take it personally. I think many of the deniers just don't know anyone who's been hit with it. But that's no excuse, as many of the people who take it seriously don't know anyone hit badly by it. But I have a relation who was killed by it, another in her 30s who has lung scarring because of it and 6 months later still has serious respiratory issues when doing any kind of exercise, and finally someone who has developed Parkinson's post Covid. So I take it personally.

The other muppet doesn't even know how a discussion board works. 40 people disagree with him, so 40 replies are needed. Jeez Louise. 🙄

This is the type of snide piece of shit response you get here.

We can all play victim bingo. There are plenty of victims of lockdown, plenty of people who have been harmed mentally, socially, physically - vulnerable people. But hey, f**k them right.

What makes the people you know so much more important than all those victims?

I had a 77 year old uncle pass away 4 weeks ago. He had cancer in remission, he had been failing badly for a number of months but wasn't seen to. About 6 weeks ago he was admitted to hospital and was told he had weeks to live. He's another victim of lockdown.

So spare me your f**king conceited arrogance.

Sorry to hear about your uncle

But are you saying that if the spread of the virus had been much more extensive than it was, your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

Because that's what you're strongly implying

He would have been diagnosed months ago had the whole health service not been consumed by Covid.

The way things have gone, unless you have Covid you are not priority, it does not matter the seriousness of graveness of your ailment - Covid takes precedent.

If Hound wants to take snide shots like that then maybe he should be prepared that ask people who have lost loved ones or suffered hardship as a result of actions made to curb Covid.

Answer the question

Are you saying that if the spread of the virus had been much more extensive than it was, your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

I'm saying people like my uncle were cast aside by the health service because their ailments were not Covid related.

You have a few questions of your own that you have point blank refused to answer, unlike you I'm not a coward who runs away from them.

You haven't answered the question

The clear implication of your argument is that cancer treatment would be superior if the virus spread was allowed to increase

But this is obviously totally false

It seems your whole stance is based on magical thinking - let's pretend there's not a pandemic

When you're stumped, you just resort to insults

It's very telling

I've addressed the question.

My uncle did not get the care he should have, he was cast aside when he was in grave health situation because his ailment was not Covid related.

He should have been diagnosed and treated months ago, instead he was only admitted to hospital when his health hit a grave situation and was told at that points he had weeks to live, he was let home with a morphine drip to die.

He was a consequence of the strategy to made Covid front, right and centre. You asked a loaded question I addressed it, a loaded question that relates personally to me and the situation of my family. I brought it up so I am not going to get upset about this avenue.

Now I've asked you plenty of important questions on multiples occasions and you have refused to answer them, refused to address them, completely ignored them. That says a lot about your cowardice.

Careful Angelo, Seaney will be waying in with the 'weaponizing your uncle, how disgusting is that?) if he doesnt then he's full of shit!

I was waiting for that!

[Seaney]

Everyone would have received better treatment had the NHS not abandoned cancer treatment and planned appointments to concentrate solely on covid which came no where close to overwhelming the NHS if you can't comprehend that, that is your own issue.

Would it be fair to say that opening up and having the A&E jammed like it has been (Ive been before  ) over the years and the way this spreads it would have had a ripple effect?

Then having people into the hospital wards for visits, do you think it wouldnt spread in there?

Now just answer me those questions first... then you can come back with a question

Just seen this bit, don't flattery yourself son, you seem to have yourself on some pedestal there!

Alright Da, I'll try not to flattery myself !

So you have an idea on doing this? The logistics PPE the managing of all of what you have said would be handy enough?

Going into wards visits, treatments and other appointments would be like going into a nursing home, in the hospital we've the most sick, at the start of this pandemic they hadn't a clue how to stop it, control it manage it, so they closed and limited things down, stopped the spread, refused minor treatments and so on..

As they got a handle on it they started opening up more and that's where we are today, its not perfect but its getting better..The crystal ball or hindsight would have been handier to have though

Had they refused your fathers treatments would you have been happy enough, some treatments were far from minor but you make sure your narrative keeps on track, how many died early as a result of lockdown - or do you not care as long as it wasn't any of your ones!

[JoG2]

Is there anything to be said for saying another Mass?

Online I hope! 

[themac_23]

It's possible to see both sides of the argument here. Sid's view is that without what Angelo would describe as covid-vision the virus would spread rapidly as it is doing now*. Whereas Angelo's is that if covid-vision hadn't been the be all and end all, his uncle, Lord have mercy on him, would have received proper care.

I offer my deepest condolences to you Angelo on the death of your uncle and Hound on the death of his relative too.

*Fortunately so far the death toll hasn't reached the heights of the spring.

Thanks.

His illness was likely terminal in any case but it does highlight the dangers of what can happen when Covid becomes the only show in town. What about the number of people out there with undiagnosed cancer and other life threatening illnesses? They are being left behind by the health service as Covid is the only illness that matters. In my uncle's case he lived his life, he got to saw his children grow up, he got to see his grandchildren being born but there are plenty of people now in their 30s/40s/50s who will die from cancer and the likes as a result of resources being centred solely on Covid.

Some of the vicious attacks I have had on here, where my views have completely misrepresented, where I have had words put in my mouth and accusations about wanting people are quite frankly disgraceful.

There needs to be a discussion about the overall impacts of lockdowns but if you dare bring that into the spotlight a number of posters will try and bury you with hysteria and misinformation.

to be fair Angelo you raise valid points on the virus.
its becoming clear that a fair few deaths are happening alongside the virus due to the closure of surgerys/hospitals focussed on the virus etc
we are in a mess because quite simply the health services are not fit for purpose through underfunding
there is no right and wrong but definitely both sides have strong arguments

I agree with you here Naka, there are valid points on either side and im pretty torn and in fact most people I chat to are torn and ive actually seen quite a shift towards the thinking of Angelo in the last few weeks with lot of ones saying about mental health over the winter etc, the problem with this thread is the valid points on both sides are being over shadowed by personal attacks which is a shame because a lot of posters on both sides of the debate have points worth noting and discussing

[Olly]

What would you know with your stupid name themac underscore 23.

[themac_23]

What would you know with your stupid name themac underscore 23.

Touche 

[Milltown Row2]

Everyone would have received better treatment had the NHS not abandoned cancer treatment and planned appointments to concentrate solely on covid which came no where close to overwhelming the NHS if you can't comprehend that, that is your own issue.

Would it be fair to say that opening up and having the A&E jammed like it has been (Ive been before  ) over the years and the way this spreads it would have had a ripple effect?

Then having people into the hospital wards for visits, do you think it wouldnt spread in there?

Now just answer me those questions first... then you can come back with a question

Just seen this bit, don't flattery yourself son, you seem to have yourself on some pedestal there!

Alright Da, I'll try not to flattery myself !

So you have an idea on doing this? The logistics PPE the managing of all of what you have said would be handy enough?

Going into wards visits, treatments and other appointments would be like going into a nursing home, in the hospital we've the most sick, at the start of this pandemic they hadn't a clue how to stop it, control it manage it, so they closed and limited things down, stopped the spread, refused minor treatments and so on..

As they got a handle on it they started opening up more and that's where we are today, its not perfect but its getting better..The crystal ball or hindsight would have been handier to have though

Had they refused your fathers treatments would you have been happy enough, some treatments were far from minor but you make sure your narrative keeps on track, how many died early as a result of lockdown - or do you not care as long as it wasn't any of your ones!

How many have died as a result? I don't know
Had they refused the treatment? I'd have done nothing, we wouldn't be able to afford private chemo my dad would not have had the treatment
Do I care? yes.
No minor treatments were on offer, hearing/sight and so on, they closed that side down and concentrated on emergencies


See, I've answered the questions, without coming in with other questions and not answering the questions I was asked. Try it the next time you're asked one

[Seaney]

You are answering questions not even asked, are you a shinner, so the to aid the NHS you would have been happy enough had all your fathers treatment been cancelled?

[sid waddell]

Angelo whether you're right or wrong doesn't overly matter here. Not to me anyway.

You're absolutely correct to probe the preconceived concepts, lazy thinking, and in some cases sheer zealotry of contributors.

The number of hugely intolerant replies you've faced - especially those that wish to decry you as an idiot for maintaining an open mind - is completely out of order.

But for God's sake, please do everyone a favour and stop posting the same f**king post in a slightly reworded way, every few hours.

This thread is now unbearable to read. And it's mostly on you.

But wobbler, maybe he just is an idiot?

Not just because he has different views. You have different views on this to many of us and you're not an idiot. You can debate reasonably. But it's obvious the difference between your posts and his posts.
Have you seen him on other threads?

I do take it personally. I think many of the deniers just don't know anyone who's been hit with it. But that's no excuse, as many of the people who take it seriously don't know anyone hit badly by it. But I have a relation who was killed by it, another in her 30s who has lung scarring because of it and 6 months later still has serious respiratory issues when doing any kind of exercise, and finally someone who has developed Parkinson's post Covid. So I take it personally.

The other muppet doesn't even know how a discussion board works. 40 people disagree with him, so 40 replies are needed. Jeez Louise. 🙄

This is the type of snide piece of shit response you get here.

We can all play victim bingo. There are plenty of victims of lockdown, plenty of people who have been harmed mentally, socially, physically - vulnerable people. But hey, f**k them right.

What makes the people you know so much more important than all those victims?

I had a 77 year old uncle pass away 4 weeks ago. He had cancer in remission, he had been failing badly for a number of months but wasn't seen to. About 6 weeks ago he was admitted to hospital and was told he had weeks to live. He's another victim of lockdown.

So spare me your f**king conceited arrogance.

Sorry to hear about your uncle

But are you saying that if the spread of the virus had been much more extensive than it was, your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

Because that's what you're strongly implying

He would have been diagnosed months ago had the whole health service not been consumed by Covid.

The way things have gone, unless you have Covid you are not priority, it does not matter the seriousness of graveness of your ailment - Covid takes precedent.

If Hound wants to take snide shots like that then maybe he should be prepared that ask people who have lost loved ones or suffered hardship as a result of actions made to curb Covid.

Answer the question

Are you saying that if the spread of the virus had been much more extensive than it was, your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

I'm saying people like my uncle were cast aside by the health service because their ailments were not Covid related.

You have a few questions of your own that you have point blank refused to answer, unlike you I'm not a coward who runs away from them.

You haven't answered the question

The clear implication of your argument is that cancer treatment would be superior if the virus spread was allowed to increase

But this is obviously totally false

It seems your whole stance is based on magical thinking - let's pretend there's not a pandemic

When you're stumped, you just resort to insults

It's very telling

I've addressed the question.

My uncle did not get the care he should have, he was cast aside when he was in grave health situation because his ailment was not Covid related.

He should have been diagnosed and treated months ago, instead he was only admitted to hospital when his health hit a grave situation and was told at that points he had weeks to live, he was let home with a morphine drip to die.

He was a consequence of the strategy to made Covid front, right and centre. You asked a loaded question I addressed it, a loaded question that relates personally to me and the situation of my family. I brought it up so I am not going to get upset about this avenue.

Now I've asked you plenty of important questions on multiples occasions and you have refused to answer them, refused to address them, completely ignored them. That says a lot about your cowardice.

You made the implication that cancer patients would get better care if there was more Covid around rather than less

But that's wrong, it's obviously wrong, it's completely wrong

You still haven't addressed this

You're also speculating that your uncle's care was inadequate

We'd need to have the case file examined by an expert to make a determination on that

I'm not here to be a spokesperson for the NI NHS though

Once again, you can not deal with the truth.

The implication I made was that my uncle had serious need for medical attention but he was abandoned by the health system as Covid took priority. That is exactly and what I said and you can continue to try and go and manipulate the circumstances of his death and try and twist my words to say something I haven't but that says more about you.

What's wrong is that you are incapable of dealing with the truth, it's my fault for putting it out in the public domain but shame on you for trying to twist facts on the death of a relative of mine.

Like the coward you are you have still failed to address questions posed to you, one might say you are the real sociopath here.

You still haven't answered the question

Are you saying your uncle would have got better treatment in a situation where there was more Covid?

You can bluster all you like with Jack Nicholson impressions and continue shrieking insults but it's still not an answer

I've addressed the question three times now.

Unlike you, I'm not a coward and and unlike you, I'm not a sociopath.

You haven't addressed it

Now you're trying to weasel out of answering through sheer weight of blusterous posting

Three times and yet you continue to ask a loaded question about a relative of mine who died.

My fault for bringing it up but you are a sewer rat.

Calling somebody a sewer rat in response to a legitimate question is not an argument and only says anything about your character

[Seaney]

And differs from calling someone a sociopath because they don't follow your narrative - how?

[Milltown Row2]

You are answering questions not even asked, are you a shinner, so the to aid the NHS you would have been happy enough had all your fathers treatment been cancelled?

I'd be disappointed, like I'm disappointed that he's unwell, but I can't blame the NHS for that

[sid waddell]

It's possible to see both sides of the argument here. Sid's view is that without what Angelo would describe as covid-vision the virus would spread rapidly as it is doing now*. Whereas Angelo's is that if covid-vision hadn't been the be all and end all, his uncle, Lord have mercy on him, would have received proper care.

I offer my deepest condolences to you Angelo on the death of your uncle and Hound on the death of his relative too.

*Fortunately so far the death toll hasn't reached the heights of the spring.

Thanks.

His illness was likely terminal in any case but it does highlight the dangers of what can happen when Covid becomes the only show in town. What about the number of people out there with undiagnosed cancer and other life threatening illnesses? They are being left behind by the health service as Covid is the only illness that matters. In my uncle's case he lived his life, he got to saw his children grow up, he got to see his grandchildren being born but there are plenty of people now in their 30s/40s/50s who will die from cancer and the likes as a result of resources being centred solely on Covid.

Some of the vicious attacks I have had on here, where my views have completely misrepresented, where I have had words put in my mouth and accusations about wanting people are quite frankly disgraceful.

There needs to be a discussion about the overall impacts of lockdowns but if you dare bring that into the spotlight a number of posters will try and bury you with hysteria and misinformation.

to be fair Angelo you raise valid points on the virus.
its becoming clear that a fair few deaths are happening alongside the virus due to the closure of surgerys/hospitals focussed on the virus etc
we are in a mess because quite simply the health services are not fit for purpose through underfunding
there is no right and wrong but definitely both sides have strong arguments

Anecdotes are not data

Are there in depth investigations or studies into how Covid is affecting the treatment of non-Covid patients with serious conditions

Are there in depth studies into mental health

If there are, let's see them

Because nobody who thinks Level 5 is necessary thinks there are no negative effects of that

The point is, people who realise Level 5 is necessary realise those negative effects would be greatly amplified by just continuing to let virus spread increase

There are some people here who simply are not living in the real world

[sid waddell]

And differs from calling someone a sociopath because they don't follow your narrative - how?

But proposing a massive increase in death and the overwhelming of the health system is sociopathic!

Own it

There's no need to be politically correct here - just honest

Honesty is the best policy and the stance of you and Fulvio is fundamentally dishonest

It's a feelings over facts, fantasy over reality mindset

There's simply no arguing with that