China Coronavirus

[Hound]

Angelo whether you're right or wrong doesn't overly matter here. Not to me anyway.

You're absolutely correct to probe the preconceived concepts, lazy thinking, and in some cases sheer zealotry of contributors.

The number of hugely intolerant replies you've faced - especially those that wish to decry you as an idiot for maintaining an open mind - is completely out of order.

But for God's sake, please do everyone a favour and stop posting the same f**king post in a slightly reworded way, every few hours.

This thread is now unbearable to read. And it's mostly on you.

But wobbler, maybe he just is an idiot?

Not just because he has different views. You have different views on this to many of us and you're not an idiot. You can debate reasonably. But it's obvious the difference between your posts and his posts.
Have you seen him on other threads?

I do take it personally. I think many of the deniers just don't know anyone who's been hit with it. But that's no excuse, as many of the people who take it seriously don't know anyone hit badly by it. But I have a relation who was killed by it, another in her 30s who has lung scarring because of it and 6 months later still has serious respiratory issues when doing any kind of exercise, and finally someone who has developed Parkinson's post Covid. So I take it personally.

The other muppet doesn't even know how a discussion board works. 40 people disagree with him, so 40 replies are needed. Jeez Louise. 🙄

[RedHand88]

[maddog]

Would anyone advocating no lockdowns etc be prepared to stand in person and make the call in a hospital ward over who gets the ventilator and who doesn't when it hits that point ?

Would anyone advocating for lockdowns be prepared to tell a victim of domestic violence through lockdwon that it was necessary for her to go through with what she did?

This is the kind of bullshit projection that people who are consumed by Covid engage in

Doctors and healthcare workers have to deal with difficult decisions and death everyday in their job, it's not a Covid phenomenon.

Nice deviation. Maybe just say if you would be happy to make the call or not ?

That's what medical professionals do in their everyday job. It's tough, it's not a phenomenon that began with Covid so I find it bizarre you feel those decisions only apply to Covid.

Now I've addressed that, domestic violence cases rose in lockdown, be a gent and tell me if you would be happy to tell a victim of domestic violence that it was necessary they went through that ordeal?

Or are domestic violence victims worthless? Maybe you think they don't matter? That's the vibe I'm getting, unless it's Covid, it's irrelevant.

Yes - that is what i said in the only mention i have made of covid so far. Nothing else matters. Some leaps you are making.

You contended that I'm happy to have doctors choose between who gets on a ventilator.

The least you could do to me is tell me how you would react to a lockdown victim of domestic violence.

You are so entrenched in your views that domestic violence victims seem to be irrelevant.

You don't even find their plight worthy of comment and discussion.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/aug/17/domestic-abuse-surged-in-lockdown-panorama-investigation-finds-coronavirus

If you want to engage in hysteria, then we can engage in hysteria but clealry domestic violence victims don't matter in your eyes.

Comment and discussion on the subject is very worthy of anyone's time. What i should have done was used some of that time to read back a little bit to get a flavour of your modus operandi.
Good luck.

[Angelo]

Angelo whether you're right or wrong doesn't overly matter here. Not to me anyway.

You're absolutely correct to probe the preconceived concepts, lazy thinking, and in some cases sheer zealotry of contributors.

The number of hugely intolerant replies you've faced - especially those that wish to decry you as an idiot for maintaining an open mind - is completely out of order.

But for God's sake, please do everyone a favour and stop posting the same f**king post in a slightly reworded way, every few hours.

This thread is now unbearable to read. And it's mostly on you.

But wobbler, maybe he just is an idiot?

Not just because he has different views. You have different views on this to many of us and you're not an idiot. You can debate reasonably. But it's obvious the difference between your posts and his posts.
Have you seen him on other threads?

I do take it personally. I think many of the deniers just don't know anyone who's been hit with it. But that's no excuse, as many of the people who take it seriously don't know anyone hit badly by it. But I have a relation who was killed by it, another in her 30s who has lung scarring because of it and 6 months later still has serious respiratory issues when doing any kind of exercise, and finally someone who has developed Parkinson's post Covid. So I take it personally.

The other muppet doesn't even know how a discussion board works. 40 people disagree with him, so 40 replies are needed. Jeez Louise. 🙄

This is the type of snide piece of shit response you get here.

We can all play victim bingo. There are plenty of victims of lockdown, plenty of people who have been harmed mentally, socially, physically - vulnerable people. But hey, f**k them right.

What makes the people you know so much more important than all those victims?

I had a 77 year old uncle pass away 4 weeks ago. He had cancer in remission, he had been failing badly for a number of months but wasn't seen to. About 6 weeks ago he was admitted to hospital and was told he had weeks to live. He's another victim of lockdown.

So spare me your f**king conceited arrogance.

[Angelo]

Would anyone advocating no lockdowns etc be prepared to stand in person and make the call in a hospital ward over who gets the ventilator and who doesn't when it hits that point ?

Would anyone advocating for lockdowns be prepared to tell a victim of domestic violence through lockdwon that it was necessary for her to go through with what she did?

This is the kind of bullshit projection that people who are consumed by Covid engage in

Doctors and healthcare workers have to deal with difficult decisions and death everyday in their job, it's not a Covid phenomenon.

Nice deviation. Maybe just say if you would be happy to make the call or not ?

That's what medical professionals do in their everyday job. It's tough, it's not a phenomenon that began with Covid so I find it bizarre you feel those decisions only apply to Covid.

Now I've addressed that, domestic violence cases rose in lockdown, be a gent and tell me if you would be happy to tell a victim of domestic violence that it was necessary they went through that ordeal?

Or are domestic violence victims worthless? Maybe you think they don't matter? That's the vibe I'm getting, unless it's Covid, it's irrelevant.

Yes - that is what i said in the only mention i have made of covid so far. Nothing else matters. Some leaps you are making.

You contended that I'm happy to have doctors choose between who gets on a ventilator.

The least you could do to me is tell me how you would react to a lockdown victim of domestic violence.

You are so entrenched in your views that domestic violence victims seem to be irrelevant.

You don't even find their plight worthy of comment and discussion.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/aug/17/domestic-abuse-surged-in-lockdown-panorama-investigation-finds-coronavirus

If you want to engage in hysteria, then we can engage in hysteria but clealry domestic violence victims don't matter in your eyes.

Comment and discussion on the subject is very worthy of anyone's time. What i should have done was used some of that time to read back a little bit to get a flavour of your modus operandi.
Good luck.

What you should have done is realise that lockdown has severe and widespread impacts on lots of people.

Those at risk of covid are not higher on any sort of hierarchy than other vulnerable people.

You would do well to meet that.

[sid waddell]

We've had a good few posters here imploring for things to be "opened up"

Yet I can't recall any of these posters ever imploring for a proper test and trace system

Or a Zero Covid system

Both of these are strategies to suppress the virus and have been shown to work when done properly

So the clear implication is that these people want to open up without either proper test and trace or Zero Covid

What sort of person wants to open up without a suppression strategy rather than open up with a suppression strategy?

Sociopaths, that's who

Let's hide under our beds until 2023 then.

Let's crank up domestic violence cases, unemployment and mental health problems in that time.

At what benefit?

Did you ever call for a lockdown in any of the past flu seasons? If you didn't then you're a sociopath by your own definition.

You're deflecting more than a Mayo defender in the first half of the 2016 All-Ireland final

Why do you want to open up society fully without a suppression strategy rather than open it up cautiously with a suppression strategy?

And why is this the loony right's continued narrative?

The logical conclusion is that the loony right sees mass death as a good thing in and of itself

And one only has to look at Trump to see this is indeed the case in reality

Learn to read dumbass, the only person mentioning society opening up fully is you.

As usual you are being disingenuous, you are dealing in misrepresentation and providing false information.

We have measures in place with the virus, social distancing, increased hand hygiene, compulsory mask wearing, limited indoor gatherings - these practices continue until such time as science has cracked or the virus burns out - I find the latter much more likely.

So f**k off for yourself your usual nutjob right wing crap because you are completely unable to stick to what is true. You're actually the one advocating lockdown measures, if you had any brain matter between your ears you might realise that fascism is more in line with your rhetoric than anyone else on this thread.

The course of action we are taking is going to create widespread societal and economic problems, domestic violence cases rose during the last lockdown, addiction relapses increased, mental health problems increased, financial hardship increased, businesses will go the wall which leads to job losses, there are many more consequences.

And for what? What benefit are we doing this for? To save lives? What about the lives this course of actions costs, what about the lives it ruins, the businesses it closes, the marriages and relationships it destroys?

I've asked cowards like you, Franko, Milltown and all the rest a simple question and it goes to show how spineless you all are. None of you have the guts to answer as doing so shows complete and utter hypocrisy.

We live with seasonal flu every year, it kills people, it consumes the health service, it causes long lasting health impacts - but whatever risk we attach to that we deem it acceptable. It happens ever year and we don't change anything about our lives. Now maybe you finally grow a pair of balls and answer me this - at what point does Covid become an acceptable risk like flu?

I sincerely doubt you have enough backbone to address that though.

Thanks for the insults, it's clear I've touched a raw nerve

The fact is, you are arguing for a situation where the virus continues to spread and grow

You have to have a suppression strategy

If you have a suppression strategy that works, then you can cautiously open up society, perhaps to effectively full liberalisation

But you have never argued for a suppression strategy

You have never argued for effective find, test, trace, isolate or for Zero Covid

Your argument is to let the virus continue to rip - because that's what it was doing under Level 2 and Level 3

That is not a tenable argument

At all

[sid waddell]

Angelo whether you're right or wrong doesn't overly matter here. Not to me anyway.

You're absolutely correct to probe the preconceived concepts, lazy thinking, and in some cases sheer zealotry of contributors.

The number of hugely intolerant replies you've faced - especially those that wish to decry you as an idiot for maintaining an open mind - is completely out of order.

But for God's sake, please do everyone a favour and stop posting the same f**king post in a slightly reworded way, every few hours.

This thread is now unbearable to read. And it's mostly on you.

But wobbler, maybe he just is an idiot?

Not just because he has different views. You have different views on this to many of us and you're not an idiot. You can debate reasonably. But it's obvious the difference between your posts and his posts.
Have you seen him on other threads?

I do take it personally. I think many of the deniers just don't know anyone who's been hit with it. But that's no excuse, as many of the people who take it seriously don't know anyone hit badly by it. But I have a relation who was killed by it, another in her 30s who has lung scarring because of it and 6 months later still has serious respiratory issues when doing any kind of exercise, and finally someone who has developed Parkinson's post Covid. So I take it personally.

The other muppet doesn't even know how a discussion board works. 40 people disagree with him, so 40 replies are needed. Jeez Louise. 🙄

This is the type of snide piece of shit response you get here.

We can all play victim bingo. There are plenty of victims of lockdown, plenty of people who have been harmed mentally, socially, physically - vulnerable people. But hey, f**k them right.

What makes the people you know so much more important than all those victims?

I had a 77 year old uncle pass away 4 weeks ago. He had cancer in remission, he had been failing badly for a number of months but wasn't seen to. About 6 weeks ago he was admitted to hospital and was told he had weeks to live. He's another victim of lockdown.

So spare me your f**king conceited arrogance.

Sorry to hear about your uncle

But are you saying that if the spread of the virus had been much more extensive than it was, your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

Because that's what you're strongly implying

[sid waddell]

Angelo whether you're right or wrong doesn't overly matter here. Not to me anyway.

You're absolutely correct to probe the preconceived concepts, lazy thinking, and in some cases sheer zealotry of contributors.

The number of hugely intolerant replies you've faced - especially those that wish to decry you as an idiot for maintaining an open mind - is completely out of order.

But for God's sake, please do everyone a favour and stop posting the same f**king post in a slightly reworded way, every few hours.

This thread is now unbearable to read. And it's mostly on you.

But wobbler, maybe he just is an idiot?

Not just because he has different views. You have different views on this to many of us and you're not an idiot. You can debate reasonably. But it's obvious the difference between your posts and his posts.
Have you seen him on other threads?

I do take it personally. I think many of the deniers just don't know anyone who's been hit with it. But that's no excuse, as many of the people who take it seriously don't know anyone hit badly by it. But I have a relation who was killed by it, another in her 30s who has lung scarring because of it and 6 months later still has serious respiratory issues when doing any kind of exercise, and finally someone who has developed Parkinson's post Covid. So I take it personally.

The other muppet doesn't even know how a discussion board works. 40 people disagree with him, so 40 replies are needed. Jeez Louise. 🙄

Wobbler is a great man for the Spiked Online style buzzwords

2+2 is never 4, it's "groupthink"

That's exactly how right-wing professional merchants of doubt work - the smoking causes cancer deniers, climate crisis deniers, the Covid deniers all work that way

[Angelo]

We've had a good few posters here imploring for things to be "opened up"

Yet I can't recall any of these posters ever imploring for a proper test and trace system

Or a Zero Covid system

Both of these are strategies to suppress the virus and have been shown to work when done properly

So the clear implication is that these people want to open up without either proper test and trace or Zero Covid

What sort of person wants to open up without a suppression strategy rather than open up with a suppression strategy?

Sociopaths, that's who

Let's hide under our beds until 2023 then.

Let's crank up domestic violence cases, unemployment and mental health problems in that time.

At what benefit?

Did you ever call for a lockdown in any of the past flu seasons? If you didn't then you're a sociopath by your own definition.

You're deflecting more than a Mayo defender in the first half of the 2016 All-Ireland final

Why do you want to open up society fully without a suppression strategy rather than open it up cautiously with a suppression strategy?

And why is this the loony right's continued narrative?

The logical conclusion is that the loony right sees mass death as a good thing in and of itself

And one only has to look at Trump to see this is indeed the case in reality

Learn to read dumbass, the only person mentioning society opening up fully is you.

As usual you are being disingenuous, you are dealing in misrepresentation and providing false information.

We have measures in place with the virus, social distancing, increased hand hygiene, compulsory mask wearing, limited indoor gatherings - these practices continue until such time as science has cracked or the virus burns out - I find the latter much more likely.

So f**k off for yourself your usual nutjob right wing crap because you are completely unable to stick to what is true. You're actually the one advocating lockdown measures, if you had any brain matter between your ears you might realise that fascism is more in line with your rhetoric than anyone else on this thread.

The course of action we are taking is going to create widespread societal and economic problems, domestic violence cases rose during the last lockdown, addiction relapses increased, mental health problems increased, financial hardship increased, businesses will go the wall which leads to job losses, there are many more consequences.

And for what? What benefit are we doing this for? To save lives? What about the lives this course of actions costs, what about the lives it ruins, the businesses it closes, the marriages and relationships it destroys?

I've asked cowards like you, Franko, Milltown and all the rest a simple question and it goes to show how spineless you all are. None of you have the guts to answer as doing so shows complete and utter hypocrisy.

We live with seasonal flu every year, it kills people, it consumes the health service, it causes long lasting health impacts - but whatever risk we attach to that we deem it acceptable. It happens ever year and we don't change anything about our lives. Now maybe you finally grow a pair of balls and answer me this - at what point does Covid become an acceptable risk like flu?

I sincerely doubt you have enough backbone to address that though.

Thanks for the insults, it's clear I've touched a raw nerve

The fact is, you are arguing for a situation where the virus continues to spread and grow

You have to have a suppression strategy

If you have a suppression strategy that works, then you can cautiously open up society, perhaps to effectively full liberalisation

But you have never argued for a suppression strategy

You have never argued for effective find, test, trace, isolate or for Zero Covid

Your argument is to let the virus continue to rip - because that's what it was doing under Level 2 and Level 3

That is not a tenable argument

At all

You're welcome, the insults are just me returning back.

I'm arguing for a situation I believe is the lesser evil. If you want to ramp up domestic violence cases, mental health problems, job losses, business closures, reduction in support services to people with disabilities and addictions, social isolation of elderly and vulnerable people then that's your call but I happen to think that it is important we look at a bigger picture. It's clear as day that you don't.

I have never argued for those strategies as I don't think they are achievable, we are now repeating the same mistakes we did when the virus first hit our shores. I have said I'd like to see us take the course of action Slovakia are currently trying to implement in mass testing as it's a progressive strategy, I have argued against lockdown as a means of buying time without any achievable strategy in place. Because in a few months time we'll be in another lockdown and with each further lockdown we enter, the societal problems it creates multiply.

What you are putting forward is airy-fairy pie in the sky stuff that has no resonance with reality.

We get on and live with the virus. We live with seasonal flu and all the risks it takes so answer me this, at what level does Covid carry an acceptable risk? You and all the other cowards still run away from that one? It's a simple question, why does answering it scare you so much?

[Angelo]

Angelo whether you're right or wrong doesn't overly matter here. Not to me anyway.

You're absolutely correct to probe the preconceived concepts, lazy thinking, and in some cases sheer zealotry of contributors.

The number of hugely intolerant replies you've faced - especially those that wish to decry you as an idiot for maintaining an open mind - is completely out of order.

But for God's sake, please do everyone a favour and stop posting the same f**king post in a slightly reworded way, every few hours.

This thread is now unbearable to read. And it's mostly on you.

But wobbler, maybe he just is an idiot?

Not just because he has different views. You have different views on this to many of us and you're not an idiot. You can debate reasonably. But it's obvious the difference between your posts and his posts.
Have you seen him on other threads?

I do take it personally. I think many of the deniers just don't know anyone who's been hit with it. But that's no excuse, as many of the people who take it seriously don't know anyone hit badly by it. But I have a relation who was killed by it, another in her 30s who has lung scarring because of it and 6 months later still has serious respiratory issues when doing any kind of exercise, and finally someone who has developed Parkinson's post Covid. So I take it personally.

The other muppet doesn't even know how a discussion board works. 40 people disagree with him, so 40 replies are needed. Jeez Louise. 🙄

This is the type of snide piece of shit response you get here.

We can all play victim bingo. There are plenty of victims of lockdown, plenty of people who have been harmed mentally, socially, physically - vulnerable people. But hey, f**k them right.

What makes the people you know so much more important than all those victims?

I had a 77 year old uncle pass away 4 weeks ago. He had cancer in remission, he had been failing badly for a number of months but wasn't seen to. About 6 weeks ago he was admitted to hospital and was told he had weeks to live. He's another victim of lockdown.

So spare me your f**king conceited arrogance.

Sorry to hear about your uncle

But are you saying that if the spread of the virus had been much more extensive than it was, your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

Because that's what you're strongly implying

He would have been diagnosed months ago had the whole health service not been consumed by Covid.

The way things have gone, unless you have Covid you are not priority, it does not matter the seriousness of graveness of your ailment - Covid takes precedent.

If Hound wants to take snide shots like that then maybe he should be prepared that ask people who have lost loved ones or suffered hardship as a result of actions made to curb Covid.

[Seaney]

But this isn't the case

Even in the hypothetical event that there turned out to be no vaccine - and this seems very unlikely - there are effective strategies available, and there are countries that have already put them into practice and are successfully suppressing the virus while opening up their societies

From what I can make out you are proposing to lift all restrictions, with no suppression strategy

This is a right-wing American anarcho-capitalist talking point pushed by the likes of the Koch Brother(s)

The people proposing this are some of the worst people in the world

You are the person with all the questions to answer here because you are the person proposing that the population of Ireland and the population of the world becomes the subject of a grotesque experiment

Sorry busy working there - where have a advocated let it rip - ill just let you post all the quotes, I haven't many posts so it won't take you long.  I have stated we need to learn to live with it, that is totally different to what you are insinuating I said.

[Seaney]

Would anyone advocating no lockdowns etc be prepared to stand in person and make the call in a hospital ward over who gets the ventilator and who doesn't when it hits that point ?

Well said.
Do we perform the life saving heart surgery on Patient A or do we leave the Covid comatose Patient B in the ICU bed.

Doctors make decisions all the time about these things, it's due to an underfunded health system - so stop with the drama.

[Angelo]

Would anyone advocating no lockdowns etc be prepared to stand in person and make the call in a hospital ward over who gets the ventilator and who doesn't when it hits that point ?

Well said.
Do we perform the life saving heart surgery on Patient A or do we leave the Covid comatose Patient B in the ICU bed.

Doctors make decisions all the time about these things, it's due to an underfunded health system - so stop with the drama.

Rossfan could never be accused of letting common sense or reality overtake his sanctimony.

[Seaney]

Thanks for the insults, it's clear I've touched a raw nerve

But telling anyone who has sever reservations about the societal effects of repeated lockdowns they are Sociopaths is acceptable?

[sid waddell]

But this isn't the case

Even in the hypothetical event that there turned out to be no vaccine - and this seems very unlikely - there are effective strategies available, and there are countries that have already put them into practice and are successfully suppressing the virus while opening up their societies

From what I can make out you are proposing to lift all restrictions, with no suppression strategy

This is a right-wing American anarcho-capitalist talking point pushed by the likes of the Koch Brother(s)

The people proposing this are some of the worst people in the world

You are the person with all the questions to answer here because you are the person proposing that the population of Ireland and the population of the world becomes the subject of a grotesque experiment

Anarcho-capitalist talking point made me LOL (then google to try to figure out what it is).

I think you are giving people too much credit calling out fascists on multiple threads.  In this example people want to work to be able to pay their mortgage they don't have Mein Kampf in the drawer beside the bed.  I'd be interested in the make up of the jobs of the people on this board, what percentage have an income linked to the public sector and therefore have their income protected verses those that rely on a somewhat functioning economy and how strongly that influences their views.

I haven't accused any other posters of being a fascist on this thread, I think I've mentioned it once in relation to the Trump regime and in that context it's certianly accurate

Wobbler has certainly been very big on using the word on this thread however because he's running very low on arguments

Fulvio is getting in the act now too for the same reason

Quite instructive

Funny you mention people's jobs because a let it rip strategy is a surefire way to destroy jobs

I couldn't think of anything more entitled or elitist or classist than a let it rip strategy

Those posters who are pushing it should understand they are pushing an anti-worker, pro-big business right-wing American think tank narrative which would kill a hell of a lot of people

If that's what they believe, fine, they're entitled to do that, but at least be honest about whose interests it would be serving