China Coronavirus

[restorepride]

No mention.

Indoor is about 18 times as risky as outdoor, an outdoor funfair may not have been the worst.

We're in a pandemic.
The Chinese Government built a Covid hospital in a couple of weeks.

China squashed the virus in Wuhan and around by moving resources from other parts of China. This works if it is concentrated one place.
Ireland had the Citywest facility and probably still does, but they can't move nurses etc from other parts of the country as things are much the same everywhere.

You said no government could do it a few minutes ago. If there's a will, there's a way.

We're getting close to capacity at present in the north with the no of cases peaking, an extra 20/30/40 beds would make a massive difference in how we could deal with the virus. The vast majority of people who get this won't need hospitalisation. It's a state of emergency in healthcare but the efforts that have been made at it from governmental level have been pitiful.

Instead it's easier to blame the people who abided with the first lockdown to buy them time to fix the mess that was of their own doing.

Altnagelvin doubled it's ICU bed capacity from 10 to 20 by the end of April (surge overflow beds) . That's just 1 hospital in the North, I've no idea about the rest. Though you can't make a silk purse etc....
But there's alot of folk out there that need to shoulder some blame too. People have been seen walking the streets of Derry and Strabane who have just recently tested positive. Countless idiots in shops maskless,  staff packing shelves with no masks on, Anne McCloskey and any lunatic who listens to her warped bile etc

Martin McGuinness brother Willie ramming them into Peadar's and Colm Eastwood s wife ramming them into The Taphouse. The list goes on
Interesting because Peadar's was one of the first to close, before St. Patrick's Day, and I thought had closed up again fairly sharp.  Anyhow, a gaelic team returning to the city without the cup went on the rip I believe, somewhere in the city - even though the match had been moved from the city because of the danger!!  So yes, lots of people did not take it seriously adding to what we have now.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

No mention.

Indoor is about 18 times as risky as outdoor, an outdoor funfair may not have been the worst.

We're in a pandemic.
The Chinese Government built a Covid hospital in a couple of weeks.

China squashed the virus in Wuhan and around by moving resources from other parts of China. This works if it is concentrated one place.
Ireland had the Citywest facility and probably still does, but they can't move nurses etc from other parts of the country as things are much the same everywhere.

You said no government could do it a few minutes ago. If there's a will, there's a way.

We're getting close to capacity at present in the north with the no of cases peaking, an extra 20/30/40 beds would make a massive difference in how we could deal with the virus. The vast majority of people who get this won't need hospitalisation. It's a state of emergency in healthcare but the efforts that have been made at it from governmental level have been pitiful.

Instead it's easier to blame the people who abided with the first lockdown to buy them time to fix the mess that was of their own doing.

Altnagelvin doubled it's ICU bed capacity from 10 to 20 by the end of April (surge overflow beds) . That's just 1 hospital in the North, I've no idea about the rest. Though you can't make a silk purse etc....
But there's alot of folk out there that need to shoulder some blame too. People have been seen walking the streets of Derry and Strabane who have just recently tested positive. Countless idiots in shops maskless,  staff packing shelves with no masks on, Anne McCloskey and any lunatic who listens to her warped bile etc

Martin McGuinness brother Willie ramming them into Peadar's and Colm Eastwood s wife ramming them into The Taphouse. The list goes on
Interesting because Peadar's was one of the first to close, before St. Patrick's Day, and I thought had closed up again fairly sharp.  Anyhow, a gaelic team returning to the city without the cup went on the rip I believe, somewhere in the city - even though the match had been moved from the city because of the danger!!  So yes, lots of people did not take it seriously adding to what we have now.

Absolutely they all closed early which may have added ironically to the mad numbers in between shut downs. Out of interest how did the eat out to help out go in other towns. I'm not joking you but it was almost near impossible here to book a seat it was that popular

[restorepride]

No mention.

Indoor is about 18 times as risky as outdoor, an outdoor funfair may not have been the worst.

We're in a pandemic.
The Chinese Government built a Covid hospital in a couple of weeks.

China squashed the virus in Wuhan and around by moving resources from other parts of China. This works if it is concentrated one place.
Ireland had the Citywest facility and probably still does, but they can't move nurses etc from other parts of the country as things are much the same everywhere.

You said no government could do it a few minutes ago. If there's a will, there's a way.

We're getting close to capacity at present in the north with the no of cases peaking, an extra 20/30/40 beds would make a massive difference in how we could deal with the virus. The vast majority of people who get this won't need hospitalisation. It's a state of emergency in healthcare but the efforts that have been made at it from governmental level have been pitiful.

Instead it's easier to blame the people who abided with the first lockdown to buy them time to fix the mess that was of their own doing.

Altnagelvin doubled it's ICU bed capacity from 10 to 20 by the end of April (surge overflow beds) . That's just 1 hospital in the North, I've no idea about the rest. Though you can't make a silk purse etc....
But there's alot of folk out there that need to shoulder some blame too. People have been seen walking the streets of Derry and Strabane who have just recently tested positive. Countless idiots in shops maskless,  staff packing shelves with no masks on, Anne McCloskey and any lunatic who listens to her warped bile etc

Martin McGuinness brother Willie ramming them into Peadar's and Colm Eastwood s wife ramming them into The Taphouse. The list goes on
Interesting because Peadar's was one of the first to close, before St. Patrick's Day, and I thought had closed up again fairly sharp.  Anyhow, a gaelic team returning to the city without the cup went on the rip I believe, somewhere in the city - even though the match had been moved from the city because of the danger!!  So yes, lots of people did not take it seriously adding to what we have now.

Absolutely they all closed early which may have added ironically to the mad numbers in between shut downs. Out of interest how did the eat out to help out go in other towns. I'm not joking you but it was almost near impossible here to book a seat it was that popular

Can only go on what I heard but apparently very successful.  There was a fear that the mid-week surge would eat in to (great pun!) the weekend  numbers but that didn't occur.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

No mention.

Indoor is about 18 times as risky as outdoor, an outdoor funfair may not have been the worst.

We're in a pandemic.
The Chinese Government built a Covid hospital in a couple of weeks.

China squashed the virus in Wuhan and around by moving resources from other parts of China. This works if it is concentrated one place.
Ireland had the Citywest facility and probably still does, but they can't move nurses etc from other parts of the country as things are much the same everywhere.

You said no government could do it a few minutes ago. If there's a will, there's a way.

We're getting close to capacity at present in the north with the no of cases peaking, an extra 20/30/40 beds would make a massive difference in how we could deal with the virus. The vast majority of people who get this won't need hospitalisation. It's a state of emergency in healthcare but the efforts that have been made at it from governmental level have been pitiful.

Instead it's easier to blame the people who abided with the first lockdown to buy them time to fix the mess that was of their own doing.

Altnagelvin doubled it's ICU bed capacity from 10 to 20 by the end of April (surge overflow beds) . That's just 1 hospital in the North, I've no idea about the rest. Though you can't make a silk purse etc....
But there's alot of folk out there that need to shoulder some blame too. People have been seen walking the streets of Derry and Strabane who have just recently tested positive. Countless idiots in shops maskless,  staff packing shelves with no masks on, Anne McCloskey and any lunatic who listens to her warped bile etc

Martin McGuinness brother Willie ramming them into Peadar's and Colm Eastwood s wife ramming them into The Taphouse. The list goes on
Interesting because Peadar's was one of the first to close, before St. Patrick's Day, and I thought had closed up again fairly sharp.  Anyhow, a gaelic team returning to the city without the cup went on the rip I believe, somewhere in the city - even though the match had been moved from the city because of the danger!!  So yes, lots of people did not take it seriously adding to what we have now.

Absolutely they all closed early which may have added ironically to the mad numbers in between shut downs. Out of interest how did the eat out to help out go in other towns. I'm not joking you but it was almost near impossible here to book a seat it was that popular

Can only go on what I heard but apparently very successful.  There was a fear that the mid-week surge would eat in to (great pun!) the weekend  numbers but that didn't occur.

Snap

[Cunny Funt]

The latest on a possible vaccine?
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/pfizer-to-seek-fda-approval-for-covid-19-vaccine-in-november-1.4382844?mode=amp

[michaelg]

You really couldn't make it up when it comes to NI politics:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/northern-ireland/54577892

[Milltown Row2]

You really couldn't make it up when it comes to NI politics:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/northern-ireland/54577892

This is fecking madness

[armaghniac]

NI has a huge problem, but the measures they have introduced will not cure it. These measures might reduce R towards 1 but if R is at 1 then the cases will stay the same at 1000 day and the hospitals will overflow, even if R becomes 0.95 it will take a long time to bring things under control. Then you have Poots going on about not introducing measures unless there was specific information about their value, but if you have 1200 cases a day then you have to stop a load of things.

[BennyCake]

I avoided this thread for about 5 months because it was depressing me. It's time I avoided it again as the current situation is really starting to get to me.

Too many people not doing the right things, leading to governments not going far enough in restrictions.

Hopefully we all make it out of this in one piece. Please do the right things, and hopefully we'll make it through. Best of luck everyone.

[Mikhail Prokhorov]

It's the flood story from the bible, where those who are unprepared and ignore the warnings get washed away and die, leaving the remainder to renew the world. While only a story obviously it has great parallels here, which is why you should choose your leaders wisely and listen to your conscience, it will tell you what to do 

[LCohen]

But there is absolutely nothing to say whatsoever that the consequences of contracting the flu is worse than covid and it won't be known for years so to have a few blowhards on the internet coming out and making such proclamations is absolutely absurd.

Which of the studies in the chart I posted above do you take issue with and what is wrong with their methodology, exactly?

I would say the fact that Covid is a novel virus that little is still known about and it impossible to make definitive conclusions on this. Look at the falling mortality rates that are being returned across Europe, it is defying any sort of logic to be making these types of conclusions at this juncture.

Time will tell us about Covid, we just don't know enough at the minute and it's idiotic to say otherwise.

Have you reviewed those studies yourself?

Quite incredible. Angelo cries time is of the evidence and science needs to get its collective finger out.

When confronted with scientific research he decries it as can't be right as it's too early to say.

Poisonous ignorance

Not at all.

I think it's insanity to be waiting years for science to figure out something that basic questions are causing them severe confusion.

Science's track record on solving infectious diseases is not good so people advocating us hiding under our beds until such time as science finds the solution should be put away in straight jackets.

The most important thing now is what the data says over the next few months about fatality levels, if the trends continues of fatality levels dropping hugely then it's something we can live with. We live with flu, something science has never been able to eradicate.

Staggering stuff.

How do you know it going to be years?
What you refuse to wait to say (randomly March 2021) because it could end up being March 2023 even though the period between now and March 2021 coincides with the northern winter?

Show me the balanced evidence of science's poor track record in "solving" infectious diseases?

Name the person telling you to hide under the bed at all never mind indefinitely?

You have a fixation on fatality rates and disease eradication. Flu has not been eradicated but we have had a succession of vaccines. What is you acceptable number of deaths for COVID? It's your question so presumably you will readily answer it!!! What is your stance on the non fatal health consequences of COVID?

Shocking naivety there. Science keep telling us that vaccines take years to create, if you believe science is going to sort this out in the next year or too you probably believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy as well.

And here you go again with name me, is that all you have to contribute? There are people who are solely advocating lockdowns and restrictions for fighting the virus, if the data trends as it has and show for the vast majority of people that this virus is pretty much similar to the flu in terms of its effect, if the data trends and the fatality rates keep falling, then lockdowns and restrictions are an overreaction. What will give us a basis for this is time and the results we will see from the second wave. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion other than stupid questions like name me people then just forget it. There are plenty of people who think the only way to deal with the virus here is to lock everything down, that's not going to work long term.

Flu has not been eradicated, I know that full well, we are unlikely to eradicate Covid either, certainly for a considerable amount of time so how do you deal with it? By living with it or by hiding under the bed? We live with flu, it causes deaths every year and it causes sever strain on the health system and other negative factors but we have acceptable risk with it. At what level do we say the same with Covid?

Hadn't been on in a few days. I guessed your trail of gibberish would have continued and true enough...

Scientists do not keep telling us it will take years to develop a vaccine. It is true to say that we don't know how long it will take. And we could have an early vaccine that needs improvement and is initially only used in the highest risk cases.

I love your "here you go again with name me". It is (when properly worded) called asking for evidence. It will be familiar to anyone with a passing interest in science. It is also frequently used in debate. It's purpose is twofold. Firstly it's an effort to keep the debate fact based. Secondly, by extension of the first point, it specifically addresses the number of assholes who think they can make any claim they like. The credibility of the latter needs to be completely destroyed less any impressionable minds should chance upon their works.

Let me give you and example. I have recently read someone saying "There are people who are solely advocating lockdowns and restrictions for fighting the virus". For that to be true there would have to be people ruling out trying to develop vaccines, treatments, improved testing, test, track and trace etc. It easy to see that the claim is a lie and the claimant a liar. All I have to do is ask for the evidence? They will fail to do so and engage in some complaint about being asked to produce evidence.

Anyway you get on with answering the questions I posed in the post above

[LCohen]

Does the flu cripple the health service in the same way as Covid?

That's not the same as "Do people die from it?" Yes, they do but are they coming into hospitals in the same numbers meaning that beds and treatment aren't available to anyone else?

Statistically hospital beds come under increasing pressure every winter from the flu.

Clearly there is an acceptable level of death with the seasonal flu or everything would shut down, so I'm asking you what you deem an acceptable level of death with Covid? Or are we meant to sit on our hands until science solves it, which could be years, which could be never.

I don't think there is one. People with flu & Covid will be treated and the health service will try to save their lives. Unfortunately people will still die of both.
There is an attempt, via lockdown etc to lower Covid numbers in order to stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed.
The flu doesn't overwhelm the hospitals in the same way therefore a lockdown is not seen to be required for it.

Maybe not in the same way but the flu does overwhelm hospitals at Winter and the health service does become strained and deaths do occur due to this and this is deemed an acceptable level.

So back to my question, what is an acceptable level of death. Lockdown has huge negative drawbacks to people's livelihoods, the economy and wider social and mental health problems so at what point do we say this lockdown and restrictions are counter-productive on a societal wide basis? That's a very important discussion those in power need to be discussing now.

We have been told again and again by scientists and the WHO that there is no silver bullet for Covid, it's going to be here for the medium to long terms so we simply have to learn to live with it. Some countries are making a much better fist of it that others.

Cases on the rise are going to be an inevitability.

There seems to be conflicting problems on both sides of the border - here it is the economic repercussions of quelling the spread, down south it's their dysfunctional health service being unable to cope. I think we probably have 4x the level of Covid transmissions up here at the minute that they have down south.

It would be true to say that at points during the winter the health system is overwhelmed. It's is also true to say that the flu is a factor and some years a massive problem. It depends on the strain, the efficacy of the latest vaccination and even how early in the winter the flu arrives.

But there are wider factors at play over the winter due to the cold (the temperature, not the illness).

But we accept whatever threats and levels of risk seasonal flu brings with it.

At what level do we accept Covid?

We don't just accept the flu. We pour billions into vaccinations and trying to treat.

We clearly do accept the flu.

Can you remind me of the last time we shut down entire industries and sectors because of the flu?

We don't have a vaccine for next year's flu. If we just accepted flu we wouldn't bother trying to develop one. But we don't just accept flu and we will try to develop a vaccine at huge expense.

Hopefully you are done with your flu fixation and we can get on with tackling COVID

[LCohen]

In terms of treatments, vaccines and understanding it is critically important that science keeps trying. Blockheads will try to get in the way but we just have to expose their idiocy

On the economic issues how many jobs will be lost if we don't get COVID sorted? What are the prospects for the global or domestic economy if we can't control, significantly treat, cure or vaccinate against Covid?

That's all speculative, neither of us have the answer but do you think it is good for the human race to hide under the bed waiting for science to solve it?

The data on the consequences of the second wave surge in Europe should be the decisive factor on which avenue we take. If the current trends continue then it looks more and more likely we can live with the virus.

To describe the search for treatment, vaccines and a better understanding of the virus as speculative probably gives away your degree of understanding of science and indeed English.

But please don't let me deter you from answering the economic questions I posed

What an absolutely idiotic statement you've just made. It's clearly speculative as you are asking to quantify what simply cannot be quantified right now.

Then prospects for global and domestic economies are absolutely catastrophic from lockdowns, we know that. We know already the billions and billions that have been lost as a result. Lockdowns are a course of action taken to deal with Covid but the WHO are warning against lockdowns now.

We have to wait and see now, science was not able to deal with SARS in time. Why are you so confident it will deal with this?

Speculative, as popularly understood, is a pejorative term implying either conjecture or high risk. Vaccine development for COVID 19 is based upon the knowledge built up on coronavirus down the years.

Your paragraph about economics seems to be about lockdowns. The economic questions you were asked were about the alternatives. So have another go at backing up your own argument

I am very open to listening to science and what progress they are making including inter alia vaccines

[LCohen]

Angelo I would also recommend that check out exactly what WHO are saying about Lockdowns

[LCohen]

I don't think there is any adult or adolescent who does not know that the flu can be fatal.

In stupidity terms, I think this has to rank as the most idiotic contribution to this thread so far.

So who is that doesn't know that people die of the flu?