China Coronavirus

[Angelo]

You'd expect the excess deaths level to rise again now.

What is an acceptable excess level of deaths though?

It's an uncomfortable question Angelo. A politician could never answer that, it would be career over.

They would have to say 0 which of course is possible as we seen during the summer etc...but highly, highly unlikely as we must return to 'normal'.

I don't think this thing is going anywhere, sooner or later Covid will and cannot dictate how we live and people will start to resent it taking precedence over other sicknesses.

I don't see us returning to the levels of excess deaths we saw in April/May. If we have a bad winter flu season we can see excess levels of deaths and we can accept the risk of that every year.

There has to be an acceptable level though when you consider the widespread impacts of lockdown and associated restrictions to the economy and society as a whole. It's time for leadership from governments on this.

[sid waddell]

You'd expect the excess deaths level to rise again now.

What is an acceptable excess level of deaths though?

ZERO Covid and ZERO deaths appears to be the driver. Learn to live with it they said, flatten the curve they said. Coivd App they said, Coivd App they did. €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ health spend thay got €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ health spend they did? Golfgate they did.

Now they wonder why the citizens won't listen anymore.

Unfortunately that's not the case at all

There is a strategy called Zero Covid which has been adopted extremely successfully in New Zealand yet it is totally dismissed here, most of all by those who want to "open it up ta fook"

But if you want to "open it up ta fook", Zero Covid surely is what you should be demanding!

New Zealand had 35k at the rugby last week

The Adelaide Oval looked fairly full this morning for the AFL preliminary final

It's almost like there are some people in Ireland - the sort who eulogise the moronic Sunetra Gupta and the moronic Martin Feeley, etc, and praise the failed Swedish strategy - who have a deep ideological attachment to the idea that this virus should kill a lot of people, that that's actually what they want!

Because I can't think of any other reason for why those who want the economy up and running would dismiss a strategy designed to do exactly that - as well as crush the virus

It's totally bizarre

[armaghniac]

You'd expect the excess deaths level to rise again now.

What is an acceptable excess level of deaths though?

ZERO Covid and ZERO deaths appears to be the driver. Learn to live with it they said, flatten the curve they said. Coivd App they said, Coivd App they did. €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ health spend thay got €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ health spend they did? Golfgate they did.

Now they wonder why the citizens won't listen anymore.

The citizens didn't listen in the first place, the basic message was behave responsibly and stay away from people. Instead a lot of people are either ignoring the rules entirely or looking for some loophole and then blaming the government. The excess deaths in the chart above are as bad as the worst year of the troubles, but a lot of people who have no problem giving out about the SF/IRA or the British Army/RUC/Collusion also have no problem in behaving in a way that causes these deaths. There will be more people dying needlessly in Derry in the next few weeks than died on bloody Sunday, but there will be no demand for an inquiry.

[Angelo]

You'd expect the excess deaths level to rise again now.

What is an acceptable excess level of deaths though?

ZERO Covid and ZERO deaths appears to be the driver. Learn to live with it they said, flatten the curve they said. Coivd App they said, Coivd App they did. €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ health spend thay got €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ health spend they did? Golfgate they did.

Now they wonder why the citizens won't listen anymore.

The citizens didn't listen in the first place, the basic message was behave responsibly and stay away from people. Instead a lot of people are either ignoring the rules entirely or looking for some loophole and then blaming the government. The excess deaths in the chart above are as bad as the worst year of the troubles, but a lot of people who have no problem giving out about the SF/IRA or the British Army/RUC/Collusion also have no problem in behaving in a way that causes these deaths. There will be more people dying needlessly in Derry in the next few weeks than died on bloody Sunday, but there will be no demand for an inquiry.

It's easy to blame the people.

Issues should have been addressed during the first lockdown, the lack of foresight and planning has been criminal.

The excess levels of death primarily relate to April/May. Since June it has been fairly steady.

[sid waddell]

You'd expect the excess deaths level to rise again now.

What is an acceptable excess level of deaths though?

ZERO Covid and ZERO deaths appears to be the driver. Learn to live with it they said, flatten the curve they said. Coivd App they said, Coivd App they did. €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ health spend thay got €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ health spend they did? Golfgate they did.

Now they wonder why the citizens won't listen anymore.

The citizens didn't listen in the first place, the basic message was behave responsibly and stay away from people. Instead a lot of people are either ignoring the rules entirely or looking for some loophole and then blaming the government. The excess deaths in the chart above are as bad as the worst year of the troubles, but a lot of people who have no problem giving out about the SF/IRA or the British Army/RUC/Collusion also have no problem in behaving in a way that causes these deaths. There will be more people dying needlessly in Derry in the next few weeks than died on bloody Sunday, but there will be no demand for an inquiry.

It's easy to blame the people.

Issues should have been addressed during the first lockdown, the lack of foresight and planning has been criminal.

The excess levels of death primarily relate to April/May. Since June it has been fairly steady.

Yet none of the right-wing "open it ta fook" crew have said anything about lack of foresight or planning

Perhaps because it is decades of right-wing politics which has led to a complete destruction of the capacity to plan or have anything beyond short term thinking

When Michael McDowell talks about how another lockdown would be disastrous, he should have the honesty to mention that it was decades of failed right-wing ideology promoted by the likes of him that led to the lack of ability to plan and put systems and capacity in place that would have avoided the need for another lockdown

In short, the likes of McDowell should get to fook

[Angelo]

You'd expect the excess deaths level to rise again now.

What is an acceptable excess level of deaths though?

ZERO Covid and ZERO deaths appears to be the driver. Learn to live with it they said, flatten the curve they said. Coivd App they said, Coivd App they did. €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ health spend thay got €€€€€€€€€€€€€€€ health spend they did? Golfgate they did.

Now they wonder why the citizens won't listen anymore.

The citizens didn't listen in the first place, the basic message was behave responsibly and stay away from people. Instead a lot of people are either ignoring the rules entirely or looking for some loophole and then blaming the government. The excess deaths in the chart above are as bad as the worst year of the troubles, but a lot of people who have no problem giving out about the SF/IRA or the British Army/RUC/Collusion also have no problem in behaving in a way that causes these deaths. There will be more people dying needlessly in Derry in the next few weeks than died on bloody Sunday, but there will be no demand for an inquiry.

It's easy to blame the people.

Issues should have been addressed during the first lockdown, the lack of foresight and planning has been criminal.

The excess levels of death primarily relate to April/May. Since June it has been fairly steady.

Yet none of the right-wing "open it ta fook" crew have said anything about lack of foresight or planning

Perhaps because it is decades of right-wing politics which has led to a complete destruction of the capacity to plan or have anything beyond short term thinking

When Michael McDowell talks about how another lockdown would be disastrous, he should have the honesty to mention that it was decades of failed right-wing ideology promoted by the likes of him that led to the lack of ability to plan and put systems and capacity in place that would have avoided the need for another lockdown

In short, the likes of McDowell should get to fook

Of course, the main problem that exists currently is a dysfunctional health service that cannot cope with the surge in cases.

We are seeing by the data lately that the fatality rates of the virus are dropping dramatically but the surge in new cases means the health system will struggle to cope. At the minute the bigger issue looks to be the health service rather than the virus.

[sid waddell]

The issues are

i) the virus
ii) the decades of mismanagement of the health service according to private sector "rational" principles such as public choice theory as promoted by the Koch Brothers-funded libertarian crackpot James Buchanan
iii) the failure to put in place a proper find, test, trace and isolate system
iv) The confusion and short termism and influence of the business lobby over policy
v) the individualistic "f**k society" culture promoted by right-wing loons like McDowell

In short, the virus is the problem, and right-wing politics is the problem

Norway, Finland and Denmark are managing their situations very well, perhaps because they didn't have governments full of Michael McDowells and media full of right-wing gobshites like Ian O'Doherty and David Quinn and Martin Feeley

[Angelo]

The issues are

i) the virus
ii) the decades of mismanagement of the health service according to private sector "rational" principles such as public choice theory as promoted by the Koch Brothers-funded libertarian crackpot James Buchanan
iii) the failure to put in place a proper find, test, trace and isolate system
iv) The confusion and short termism and influence of the business lobby over policy
v) the individualistic "f**k society" culture promoted by right-wing loons like McDowell

In short, the virus is the problem, and right-wing politics is the problem

Norway, Finland and Denmark are managing their situations very well, perhaps because they didn't have governments full of Michael McDowells and media full of right-wing gobshites like Ian O'Doherty and David Quinn and Martin Feeley

The virus is here and it's not going away. People were invested in the firs lockdown, I don't think the same buy in exists this time around as governments failed to act on the time lockdown bought them to deal with the virus. If there was adequate healthcare resources and ICU beds available then we would not be in a second lockdown right now.

[armaghniac]

The issues are

i) the virus
ii) the decades of mismanagement of the health service according to private sector "rational" principles such as public choice theory as promoted by the Koch Brothers-funded libertarian crackpot James Buchanan
iii) the failure to put in place a proper find, test, trace and isolate system
iv) The confusion and short termism and influence of the business lobby over policy
v) the individualistic "f**k society" culture promoted by right-wing loons like McDowell

In short, the virus is the problem, and right-wing politics is the problem

Norway, Finland and Denmark are managing their situations very well, perhaps because they didn't have governments full of Michael McDowells and media full of right-wing gobshites like Ian O'Doherty and David Quinn and Martin Feeley

The virus is here and it's not going away. People were invested in the firs lockdown, I don't think the same buy in exists this time around as governments failed to act on the time lockdown bought them to deal with the virus. If there was adequate healthcare resources and ICU beds available then we would not be in a second lockdown right now.

No government can easily conjure up additional experienced doctors and nurses. They can do something and perhaps should have done more, but if the numbers are growing quickly then any extra ICU beds they could conceivably magic up would only postpone restrictions for a couple of weeks.
They have to flatten the bulge one way or the other.
It would have been easier and cheaper for them to hire more inspectors and more contact tracers than hire more doctors and they should absolutely be criticised for not doing this.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Edwin Potts on TalkBack saying CMO has evidence linked to significant spread through GAA after parties

What amazing detective powers. There is no doubt that many people have let the GAA down. The worst part of the 26 counties is in Cavan around Ballyjamesduff, not close to the border but close to Crosserlough. The closure of businesses throughout Cavan can be laid at the door of irresponsible people in those parts.

The intercounty season shouldn't lead to this, unless Fermanagh win Ulster.

About Poots - I heard that and must say I get fed up with the lack of knowledge from interviewers to come back on the claims made.  As we know, Derry City & Strabane council areas have been the hotbeds of infection recently.  I don't recall any recent big GAA games in that council area, no big congregation of GAA supporters ignoring social distancing.  That would have been an easy response from Crawley, if he had bothered.  There have been widely publicised infractions in Slaughtneil, Dungannon and after a game in South Armagh.   Behaviour was unwise, at a minimum.  However, Poots, unchallenged, only laid the blame in one direction.

The only narrative around Covid and the GAA is negative.  I know in my Co Derry club we have been very compliant with all guidelines, consistently since returning to training and play.  Across the GAA there have been clear breaches but its an organisation with a very wide reach.  I just wish the good stuff would get a bit more airtime.

Yes I thought it could be challenged more myself, but also I don't think he suggested every outbreak was down to that, just some of the significant ones. The outbreaks here in Derry City certainly were not down to it, id love to start seeing the data because he clearly said MON and AF know the main sources-I suspect bars and parties in Derry City.

What about that funfair on N. I execuitve land in Derry? Anything traced back to  that??

No mention.

[Angelo]

The issues are

i) the virus
ii) the decades of mismanagement of the health service according to private sector "rational" principles such as public choice theory as promoted by the Koch Brothers-funded libertarian crackpot James Buchanan
iii) the failure to put in place a proper find, test, trace and isolate system
iv) The confusion and short termism and influence of the business lobby over policy
v) the individualistic "f**k society" culture promoted by right-wing loons like McDowell

In short, the virus is the problem, and right-wing politics is the problem

Norway, Finland and Denmark are managing their situations very well, perhaps because they didn't have governments full of Michael McDowells and media full of right-wing gobshites like Ian O'Doherty and David Quinn and Martin Feeley

The virus is here and it's not going away. People were invested in the firs lockdown, I don't think the same buy in exists this time around as governments failed to act on the time lockdown bought them to deal with the virus. If there was adequate healthcare resources and ICU beds available then we would not be in a second lockdown right now.

No government can easily conjure up additional experienced doctors and nurses. They can do something and perhaps should have done more, but if the numbers are growing quickly then any extra ICU beds they could conceivably magic up would only postpone restrictions for a couple of weeks.
They have to flatten the bulge one way or the other.
It would have been easier and cheaper for them to hire more inspectors and more contact tracers than hire more doctors and they should absolutely be criticised for not doing this.

We're in a pandemic.

The Chinese Government built a Covid hospital in a couple of weeks.

[armaghniac]

No mention.

Indoor is about 18 times as risky as outdoor, an outdoor funfair may not have been the worst.

We're in a pandemic.
The Chinese Government built a Covid hospital in a couple of weeks.

China squashed the virus in Wuhan and around by moving resources from other parts of China. This works if it is concentrated one place.
Ireland had the Citywest facility and probably still does, but they can't move nurses etc from other parts of the country as things are much the same everywhere.

[Angelo]

No mention.

Indoor is about 18 times as risky as outdoor, an outdoor funfair may not have been the worst.

We're in a pandemic.
The Chinese Government built a Covid hospital in a couple of weeks.

China squashed the virus in Wuhan and around by moving resources from other parts of China. This works if it is concentrated one place.
Ireland had the Citywest facility and probably still does, but they can't move nurses etc from other parts of the country as things are much the same everywhere.

You said no government could do it a few minutes ago. If there's a will, there's a way.

We're getting close to capacity at present in the north with the no of cases peaking, an extra 20/30/40 beds would make a massive difference in how we could deal with the virus. The vast majority of people who get this won't need hospitalisation. It's a state of emergency in healthcare but the efforts that have been made at it from governmental level have been pitiful.

Instead it's easier to blame the people who abided with the first lockdown to buy them time to fix the mess that was of their own doing.

[armaghniac]

You said no government could do it a few minutes ago. If there's a will, there's a way.

The only way you can do it is by cancelling other operations and moving the nurses etc around.
Yet we had several people here implying that lockdowns did not benefit people with other diseases. 

[JoG2]

No mention.

Indoor is about 18 times as risky as outdoor, an outdoor funfair may not have been the worst.

We're in a pandemic.
The Chinese Government built a Covid hospital in a couple of weeks.

China squashed the virus in Wuhan and around by moving resources from other parts of China. This works if it is concentrated one place.
Ireland had the Citywest facility and probably still does, but they can't move nurses etc from other parts of the country as things are much the same everywhere.

You said no government could do it a few minutes ago. If there's a will, there's a way.

We're getting close to capacity at present in the north with the no of cases peaking, an extra 20/30/40 beds would make a massive difference in how we could deal with the virus. The vast majority of people who get this won't need hospitalisation. It's a state of emergency in healthcare but the efforts that have been made at it from governmental level have been pitiful.

Instead it's easier to blame the people who abided with the first lockdown to buy them time to fix the mess that was of their own doing.

Altnagelvin doubled it's ICU bed capacity from 10 to 20 by the end of April (surge overflow beds) . That's just 1 hospital in the North, I've no idea about the rest. Though you can't make a silk purse etc....
But there's alot of folk out there that need to shoulder some blame too. People have been seen walking the streets of Derry and Strabane who have just recently tested positive. Countless idiots in shops maskless,  staff packing shelves with no masks on, Anne McCloskey and any lunatic who listens to her warped bile etc