China Coronavirus

[Milltown Row2]

Reported by Rob O'Hanrahan on twitter here -

In the South (so you must assume the North isn't too much different).

522 outbreaks

352 Private Households
25 Schools
7 Resturant/Cafe
4 Pubs
3 Sporting/Fitness

So the 3 lowest places are the ones being hit the hardest!! The reason is they are working their socks off to provide a safe place for their customers!

[LCohen]

The best one of the lot for me is the no selling beer after 8pm in shops. Literally pointless. Almost like one can't go and buy it for the 8 hours prior.

Apparently not. One of the earlier Welsh regional restrictions was in part based upon evidence established via test, track and trace. They were able to identify links to clusters from people coming out of pubs and going on to other pubs or back to houses via the off licence.

The reason why a lot of clusters are linked to pubs is because they are using track and trace, they are following guidelines set down and are following up on the procedures..

Shops are still open and no track and trace systems seem to be in place, kids will be off for 2 weeks and that means they'll head to the shops! as they don't have to adhere to staying local (2 mile radius)

Punishing the pubs, who have worked very hard to make things safer is wrong

This is the trace track and trace based on mobile phone data. Not names/addresses given at the door

Id imagine its a combination of both, I've been asked and given those details at the bar of my local, and when I've booked for food I've been asked the same. Our other local has also done the same... The bar owner on Nolan last night said they were using the app

The welsh one I'm referring to was mobile phone data. And just for clarity it was the basis of the 10pm closure of bars not the total closure or bars

[LCohen]

You keep asking nonsense questions like which people which leads to me think you are not capable of anything close to an intelligent debate. Why don't you conduct an audit.

Here's an article for your world of ignorance and naivety.

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/parents-dont-take-flu-seriously

The flu kills every year, vaccination or no vaccination. What is the acceptable level of risk? Why don't we go into lockdown every winter over the consequences of seasonal flu? Maybe you are now saying we should? At what cost does the world become consumed by Covid?

You confidently state "people on here ....." It's a logical question to ask you to name one. A question that you can't answer because it exposes your bogus argument

Stop using the flu as something to compare this to in terms of effects, numbers etc. It is such a lazy argument to bring the flu into it. Is is nothing like the flu once and is a nasty nasty repository disease.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-covid-19-isnt-the-flu

https://www.facebook.com/publichealthagency/videos/1720107168155944

Im not the one bring the flu into it. Angelo is. I'm knocking his nonsense on the head

[93-DY-SAM]

You keep asking nonsense questions like which people which leads to me think you are not capable of anything close to an intelligent debate. Why don't you conduct an audit.

Here's an article for your world of ignorance and naivety.

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/parents-dont-take-flu-seriously

The flu kills every year, vaccination or no vaccination. What is the acceptable level of risk? Why don't we go into lockdown every winter over the consequences of seasonal flu? Maybe you are now saying we should? At what cost does the world become consumed by Covid?

You confidently state "people on here ....." It's a logical question to ask you to name one. A question that you can't answer because it exposes your bogus argument

Stop using the flu as something to compare this to in terms of effects, numbers etc. It is such a lazy argument to bring the flu into it. Is is nothing like the flu once and is a nasty nasty repository disease.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-covid-19-isnt-the-flu

https://www.facebook.com/publichealthagency/videos/1720107168155944

Im not the one bring the flu into it. Angelo is. I'm knocking his nonsense on the head

Sorry I meant to highlight the bit above in bold in my previous post and it was directed at Angelo, not yourself. Apologies for the confusion.

[LCohen]

You keep asking nonsense questions like which people which leads to me think you are not capable of anything close to an intelligent debate. Why don't you conduct an audit.

Here's an article for your world of ignorance and naivety.

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/parents-dont-take-flu-seriously

The flu kills every year, vaccination or no vaccination. What is the acceptable level of risk? Why don't we go into lockdown every winter over the consequences of seasonal flu? Maybe you are now saying we should? At what cost does the world become consumed by Covid?

You confidently state "people on here ....." It's a logical question to ask you to name one. A question that you can't answer because it exposes your bogus argument

Stop using the flu as something to compare this to in terms of effects, numbers etc. It is such a lazy argument to bring the flu into it. Is is nothing like the flu once and is a nasty nasty repository disease.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-covid-19-isnt-the-flu

https://www.facebook.com/publichealthagency/videos/1720107168155944

Im not the one bring the flu into it. Angelo is. I'm knocking his nonsense on the head

Sorry I meant to highlight the bit above in bold in my previous post and it was directed at Angelo, not yourself. Apologies for the confusion.

I was a bit quick to get confused though. Apology accepted and returned

[GetOverTheBar]

Reported by Rob O'Hanrahan on twitter here -

In the South (so you must assume the North isn't too much different).

522 outbreaks

352 Private Households
25 Schools
7 Resturant/Cafe
4 Pubs
3 Sporting/Fitness

So the 3 lowest places are the ones being hit the hardest!! The reason is they are working their socks off to provide a safe place for their customers!

Weak governments looking cheap targets. Taking the easy route out of it.

[armaghniac]

Reported by Rob O'Hanrahan on twitter here -

In the South (so you must assume the North isn't too much different).

522 outbreaks

352 Private Households
25 Schools
7 Resturant/Cafe
4 Pubs
3 Sporting/Fitness

So the 3 lowest places are the ones being hit the hardest!! The reason is they are working their socks off to provide a safe place for their customers!

Because these are lowest doesn't that they are not causing the problem. If two people in the same house get Covid then the association is clearly made, if one person passes Covid to someone else in a pub then a week later when these people are rested, this is classes as "Community Transmission". You would need a proper effort in contact tracing to get back to the pub and that effort hasn't happened. It is people getting it in pubs that are bringing it into houses.

[Angelo]

But there is absolutely nothing to say whatsoever that the consequences of contracting the flu is worse than covid and it won't be known for years so to have a few blowhards on the internet coming out and making such proclamations is absolutely absurd.

Which of the studies in the chart I posted above do you take issue with and what is wrong with their methodology, exactly?

I would say the fact that Covid is a novel virus that little is still known about and it impossible to make definitive conclusions on this. Look at the falling mortality rates that are being returned across Europe, it is defying any sort of logic to be making these types of conclusions at this juncture.

Time will tell us about Covid, we just don't know enough at the minute and it's idiotic to say otherwise.

Have you reviewed those studies yourself?

Quite incredible. Angelo cries time is of the evidence and science needs to get its collective finger out.

When confronted with scientific research he decries it as can't be right as it's too early to say.

Poisonous ignorance

Not at all.

I think it's insanity to be waiting years for science to figure out something that basic questions are causing them severe confusion.

Science's track record on solving infectious diseases is not good so people advocating us hiding under our beds until such time as science finds the solution should be put away in straight jackets.

The most important thing now is what the data says over the next few months about fatality levels, if the trends continues of fatality levels dropping hugely then it's something we can live with. We live with flu, something science has never been able to eradicate.

Staggering stuff.

How do you know it going to be years?
What you refuse to wait to say (randomly March 2021) because it could end up being March 2023 even though the period between now and March 2021 coincides with the northern winter?

Show me the balanced evidence of science's poor track record in "solving" infectious diseases?

Name the person telling you to hide under the bed at all never mind indefinitely?

You have a fixation on fatality rates and disease eradication. Flu has not been eradicated but we have had a succession of vaccines. What is you acceptable number of deaths for COVID? It's your question so presumably you will readily answer it!!! What is your stance on the non fatal health consequences of COVID?

Shocking naivety there. Science keep telling us that vaccines take years to create, if you believe science is going to sort this out in the next year or too you probably believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy as well.

And here you go again with name me, is that all you have to contribute? There are people who are solely advocating lockdowns and restrictions for fighting the virus, if the data trends as it has and show for the vast majority of people that this virus is pretty much similar to the flu in terms of its effect, if the data trends and the fatality rates keep falling, then lockdowns and restrictions are an overreaction. What will give us a basis for this is time and the results we will see from the second wave. If you don't have anything to add to the discussion other than stupid questions like name me people then just forget it. There are plenty of people who think the only way to deal with the virus here is to lock everything down, that's not going to work long term.

Flu has not been eradicated, I know that full well, we are unlikely to eradicate Covid either, certainly for a considerable amount of time so how do you deal with it? By living with it or by hiding under the bed? We live with flu, it causes deaths every year and it causes sever strain on the health system and other negative factors but we have acceptable risk with it. At what level do we say the same with Covid?

[Angelo]

Does the flu cripple the health service in the same way as Covid?

That's not the same as "Do people die from it?" Yes, they do but are they coming into hospitals in the same numbers meaning that beds and treatment aren't available to anyone else?

Statistically hospital beds come under increasing pressure every winter from the flu.

Clearly there is an acceptable level of death with the seasonal flu or everything would shut down, so I'm asking you what you deem an acceptable level of death with Covid? Or are we meant to sit on our hands until science solves it, which could be years, which could be never.

I don't think there is one. People with flu & Covid will be treated and the health service will try to save their lives. Unfortunately people will still die of both.
There is an attempt, via lockdown etc to lower Covid numbers in order to stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed.
The flu doesn't overwhelm the hospitals in the same way therefore a lockdown is not seen to be required for it.

Maybe not in the same way but the flu does overwhelm hospitals at Winter and the health service does become strained and deaths do occur due to this and this is deemed an acceptable level.

So back to my question, what is an acceptable level of death. Lockdown has huge negative drawbacks to people's livelihoods, the economy and wider social and mental health problems so at what point do we say this lockdown and restrictions are counter-productive on a societal wide basis? That's a very important discussion those in power need to be discussing now.

We have been told again and again by scientists and the WHO that there is no silver bullet for Covid, it's going to be here for the medium to long terms so we simply have to learn to live with it. Some countries are making a much better fist of it that others.

Cases on the rise are going to be an inevitability.

There seems to be conflicting problems on both sides of the border - here it is the economic repercussions of quelling the spread, down south it's their dysfunctional health service being unable to cope. I think we probably have 4x the level of Covid transmissions up here at the minute that they have down south.

It would be true to say that at points during the winter the health system is overwhelmed. It's is also true to say that the flu is a factor and some years a massive problem. It depends on the strain, the efficacy of the latest vaccination and even how early in the winter the flu arrives.

But there are wider factors at play over the winter due to the cold (the temperature, not the illness).

But we accept whatever threats and levels of risk seasonal flu brings with it.

At what level do we accept Covid?

We don't just accept the flu. We pour billions into vaccinations and trying to treat.

We clearly do accept the flu.

Can you remind me of the last time we shut down entire industries and sectors because of the flu?

[Angelo]

In terms of treatments, vaccines and understanding it is critically important that science keeps trying. Blockheads will try to get in the way but we just have to expose their idiocy

On the economic issues how many jobs will be lost if we don't get COVID sorted? What are the prospects for the global or domestic economy if we can't control, significantly treat, cure or vaccinate against Covid?

That's all speculative, neither of us have the answer but do you think it is good for the human race to hide under the bed waiting for science to solve it?

The data on the consequences of the second wave surge in Europe should be the decisive factor on which avenue we take. If the current trends continue then it looks more and more likely we can live with the virus.

To describe the search for treatment, vaccines and a better understanding of the virus as speculative probably gives away your degree of understanding of science and indeed English.

But please don't let me deter you from answering the economic questions I posed

What an absolutely idiotic statement you've just made. It's clearly speculative as you are asking to quantify what simply cannot be quantified right now.

Then prospects for global and domestic economies are absolutely catastrophic from lockdowns, we know that. We know already the billions and billions that have been lost as a result. Lockdowns are a course of action taken to deal with Covid but the WHO are warning against lockdowns now.

We have to wait and see now, science was not able to deal with SARS in time. Why are you so confident it will deal with this?

[Angelo]

You keep asking nonsense questions like which people which leads to me think you are not capable of anything close to an intelligent debate. Why don't you conduct an audit.

Here's an article for your world of ignorance and naivety.

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/parents-dont-take-flu-seriously

The flu kills every year, vaccination or no vaccination. What is the acceptable level of risk? Why don't we go into lockdown every winter over the consequences of seasonal flu? Maybe you are now saying we should? At what cost does the world become consumed by Covid?

You confidently state "people on here ....." It's a logical question to ask you to name one. A question that you can't answer because it exposes your bogus argument

Stop using the flu as something to compare this to in terms of effects, numbers etc. It is such a lazy argument to bring the flu into it. Is is nothing like the flu once and is a nasty nasty repository disease.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-covid-19-isnt-the-flu

https://www.facebook.com/publichealthagency/videos/1720107168155944

Another spoofer saying things he has no clue about.

[Angelo]

You keep asking nonsense questions like which people which leads to me think you are not capable of anything close to an intelligent debate. Why don't you conduct an audit.

Here's an article for your world of ignorance and naivety.

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/parents-dont-take-flu-seriously

The flu kills every year, vaccination or no vaccination. What is the acceptable level of risk? Why don't we go into lockdown every winter over the consequences of seasonal flu? Maybe you are now saying we should? At what cost does the world become consumed by Covid?

You confidently state "people on here ....." It's a logical question to ask you to name one. A question that you can't answer because it exposes your bogus argument

Stop using the flu as something to compare this to in terms of effects, numbers etc. It is such a lazy argument to bring the flu into it. Is is nothing like the flu once and is a nasty nasty repository disease.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-covid-19-isnt-the-flu

https://www.facebook.com/publichealthagency/videos/1720107168155944

To tackle this sort of nonsense head on..

A) You have a link from f**king Facebook, that says it all.

The other link has 4 main bullet points:

1.Experts say there are a number of reasons why COVID-19 is a more serious illness than the seasonal flu.

Experts say, experts say a lot of things, experts say a lot of things that contradict each other - the bottom line is these experts tend to be able to agree on very little with Covid - it's a novel virus we are still finding out about

2. They point out there's no vaccine yet for COVID-19 and community-wide immunity hasn't built up.

My that is ground breaking news, what does that tell us about whether Covid is worse than flu in its effect on someone who gets it

3. COVID-19 is also more infectious than the flu and has a higher death rate.

It's a novel virus, all across Europe now we are seeing new cases of Covid surging but fatality rates in line with the first wave dropping in multiples of up to 46 as Belgium is at the minute for instance.

4. COVID-19 also has a higher rate of hospitalizations.

As above, the second wave has been far, far less severe than the first.

It's ok to preach caution but how anyone can conclude such matters on Covid v flu at this point is idiotic, we won't know that for some time at all.

[Angelo]

Here's some experts saying something that contradicts what other experts are saying.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/10/14/the-great-barrington-declaration-herd-immunity-strategies-for-coronavirus-overlook-8-problems/#4fb2b9b0bf70

[Angelo]

I don't think there is any adult or adolescent who does not know that the flu can be fatal.

In stupidity terms, I think this has to rank as the most idiotic contribution to this thread so far.

[Milltown Row2]

Reported by Rob O'Hanrahan on twitter here -

In the South (so you must assume the North isn't too much different).

522 outbreaks

352 Private Households
25 Schools
7 Resturant/Cafe
4 Pubs
3 Sporting/Fitness

So the 3 lowest places are the ones being hit the hardest!! The reason is they are working their socks off to provide a safe place for their customers!

Because these are lowest doesn't that they are not causing the problem. If two people in the same house get Covid then the association is clearly made, if one person passes Covid to someone else in a pub then a week later when these people are rested, this is classes as "Community Transmission". You would need a proper effort in contact tracing to get back to the pub and that effort hasn't happened. It is people getting it in pubs that are bringing it into houses.

And you know this?

as you said we'd need a proper effort in tracing before you can get to the bottom of this.

Not every household is going to the pub, or have anyone within their house has been in contact with someone that has been to the pub, they'd probably have a lot of contact with people that have been to the shops or at school/uni and other places that are not pub related..

I've been to the pub once since they opened and the restaurants a few times over all... they ain't busy