China Coronavirus

[trailer]

What do we think of Trump's decision to withdraw funding from WHO? I'm not a fan by any stretch but I think he is right in regards to his criticism. They've been caught with their pants down. Trusting China in the first place was a big no no and I think Japan and Taiwan smelt a rat straight away. Them seem to be a bureaucratic body which has probably got great intentions but a bundle of amateurs at the helm.

For all of Trumps failings he has got the number of a lot of these international organisations that seem to be very poor value for money.

[GetOverTheBar]

What do we think of Trump's decision to withdraw funding from WHO? I'm not a fan by any stretch but I think he is right in regards to his criticism. They've been caught with their pants down. Trusting China in the first place was a big no no and I think Japan and Taiwan smelt a rat straight away. Them seem to be a bureaucratic body which has probably got great intentions but a bundle of amateurs at the helm.

For all of Trumps failings he has got the number of a lot of these international organisations that seem to be very poor value for money.

It's maybe more like it's hard to con, a con man.

[MayoBuck]

Can't help but notice the Swedes missing from this with their interesting approach.

That list is nonsense. And it isn't a question of what is the best approach, more what you can do with a population who can act responsibly.
Fwiw, despite the Swedes being very slow to recommend self isolation for returnees to the country, very  slow to inform close knit immigrant communities in Stockholm  in their own language about the health info,  they are doing reasonably with their approach. Ireland are just next to to Swedan in the deaths per population table, doing quite poorly and struggling despite the martial law lock down approach.
Another country I mentioned was Iceland  https://www.covid.is/data who have a similar approach to Sweden, there is no lock down,  they have detected a high rate of infections per population but have managed to contain it without a lock down, their peak is well in the past, and they they're preparing for a controlled responsible normality in the next 2 weeks. No roll of the dice as some uninformed folks like to label it.

The data in Ireland is poor, there is no table numbering the recovered. How on earth can one measure the real progress if any,  if you can't compare the numbers of recovered  to the numbers of  live infected?

Recovery doesn't sell fear presumably.

I'm also still continuing to search for data on smokers with this disease from any country, but it's not forthcoming. Why?

No argument with the point in bold, perfectly fair question to ask.

We have a limited testing capacity so can't retest everyone to prove they recovered. The number of people being released from ICU is published however.

I heard yesterday they're low on swabs in the Mayo test centres and will only be testing health care workers for the next few days at least.

[trailer]

Can't help but notice the Swedes missing from this with their interesting approach.

That list is nonsense. And it isn't a question of what is the best approach, more what you can do with a population who can act responsibly.
Fwiw, despite the Swedes being very slow to recommend self isolation for returnees to the country, very  slow to inform close knit immigrant communities in Stockholm  in their own language about the health info,  they are doing reasonably with their approach. Ireland are just next to to Swedan in the deaths per population table, doing quite poorly and struggling despite the martial law lock down approach.
Another country I mentioned was Iceland  https://www.covid.is/data who have a similar approach to Sweden, there is no lock down,  they have detected a high rate of infections per population but have managed to contain it without a lock down, their peak is well in the past, and they they're preparing for a controlled responsible normality in the next 2 weeks. No roll of the dice as some uninformed folks like to label it.

The data in Ireland is poor, there is no table numbering the recovered. How on earth can one measure the real progress if any,  if you can't compare the numbers of recovered  to the numbers of  live infected?

Recovery doesn't sell fear presumably.

I'm also still continuing to search for data on smokers with this disease from any country, but it's not forthcoming. Why?

No argument with the point in bold, perfectly fair question to ask.

We have a limited testing capacity so can't retest everyone to prove they recovered. The number of people being released from ICU is published however.

I heard yesterday they're low on swabs in the Mayo test centres and will only be testing health care workers for the next few days at least.

This is another example of the WHO's failed strategy. Test! Test! Test!. When there isn't enough PPE, Swabs, testing kits, lab capacity. Their strategy should surely be based around what can be delivered? Developed nations haven't enough of this gear never mind other less developed nations. It really appears to be clown o'clock with these guys.

[Itchy]

Can't help but notice the Swedes missing from this with their interesting approach.

That list is nonsense. And it isn't a question of what is the best approach, more what you can do with a population who can act responsibly.
Fwiw, despite the Swedes being very slow to recommend self isolation for returnees to the country, very  slow to inform close knit immigrant communities in Stockholm  in their own language about the health info,  they are doing reasonably with their approach. Ireland are just next to to Swedan in the deaths per population table, doing quite poorly and struggling despite the martial law lock down approach.
Another country I mentioned was Iceland  https://www.covid.is/data who have a similar approach to Sweden, there is no lock down,  they have detected a high rate of infections per population but have managed to contain it without a lock down, their peak is well in the past, and they they're preparing for a controlled responsible normality in the next 2 weeks. No roll of the dice as some uninformed folks like to label it.

The data in Ireland is poor, there is no table numbering the recovered. How on earth can one measure the real progress if any,  if you can't compare the numbers of recovered  to the numbers of  live infected?

Recovery doesn't sell fear presumably.

I'm also still continuing to search for data on smokers with this disease from any country, but it's not forthcoming. Why?

No argument with the point in bold, perfectly fair question to ask.

We have a limited testing capacity so can't retest everyone to prove they recovered. The number of people being released from ICU is published however.

I heard yesterday they're low on swabs in the Mayo test centres and will only be testing health care workers for the next few days at least.

This is another example of the WHO's failed strategy. Test! Test! Test!. When there isn't enough PPE, Swabs, testing kits, lab capacity. Their strategy should surely be based around what can be delivered? Developed nations haven't enough of this gear never mind other less developed nations. It really appears to be clown o'clock with these guys.

You expect the WHO to understand the supply chain around all elements of PPE? They layout what is needed, governments need to make it happen. How can Conor McGregor buy PPE and the HSE cant?

[johnnycool]

No, your right trailer, test, test, test isn't the answer as the Germans will attest with a similar population to the UK but a fraction of the deaths.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-defences-i/pass-the-salt-the-minute-details-that-helped-germany-build-virus-defences-idUKKCN21R1DB

The WHO aren't to blame for the ineptitude in the UK or US for that matter as the UK in particular was doing (or not doing) it's own thing much to the exasperation of the WHO.

There's going to be a shit fest in the UK after this and you can see snippets of some covering their holes already. When Hancock and the likes talk about following the science then you know that down the line the fingers will be pointed at these CMO's, CSO's who almost certainly have a part of blame to take but the decisions made not to bring in the lockdown sooner was based on the economy and not health.

The UK Government seems to be full of talking heads churning out the same tired old mantra, following the science, ramping up, flattening the curve, blah, blah, blah. They're so same, same in a bland sort of way that one is interchangeable with another that no one would notice the difference.

[GetOverTheBar]

No, your right trailer, test, test, test isn't the answer as the Germans will attest with a similar population to the UK but a fraction of the deaths.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-defences-i/pass-the-salt-the-minute-details-that-helped-germany-build-virus-defences-idUKKCN21R1DB

The WHO aren't to blame for the ineptitude in the UK or US for that matter as the UK in particular was doing (or not doing) it's own thing much to the exasperation of the WHO.

There's going to be a shit fest in the UK after this and you can see snippets of some covering their holes already. When Hancock and the likes talk about following the science then you know that down the line the fingers will be pointed at these CMO's, CSO's who almost certainly have a part of blame to take but the decisions made not to bring in the lockdown sooner was based on the economy and not health.

The UK Government seems to be full of talking heads churning out the same tired old mantra, following the science, ramping up, flattening the curve, blah, blah, blah. They're so same, same in a bland sort of way that one is interchangeable with another that no one would notice the difference.

The Germans have much, much better healthcare. Nearly sure someone posted a chart here recently with their ICU figures that were vastly superior to most of Europe, in fairness.

The UK has been cutting costs on the NHS for years. Wasn't that long ago they were turning down payrises and now we are told to protect the NHS. Beggars belief really. Every Govt basically adapted a "we'll be gone when it comes home to roost" approach. Boris Johnson is taking a kicking on this thread but the real causation is the many, many previous Governments of the UK.

[Rossfan]

If only the GAAboarders were in charge of Irish, British and World Health...........

[johnnycool]

No, your right trailer, test, test, test isn't the answer as the Germans will attest with a similar population to the UK but a fraction of the deaths.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-defences-i/pass-the-salt-the-minute-details-that-helped-germany-build-virus-defences-idUKKCN21R1DB

The WHO aren't to blame for the ineptitude in the UK or US for that matter as the UK in particular was doing (or not doing) it's own thing much to the exasperation of the WHO.

There's going to be a shit fest in the UK after this and you can see snippets of some covering their holes already. When Hancock and the likes talk about following the science then you know that down the line the fingers will be pointed at these CMO's, CSO's who almost certainly have a part of blame to take but the decisions made not to bring in the lockdown sooner was based on the economy and not health.

The UK Government seems to be full of talking heads churning out the same tired old mantra, following the science, ramping up, flattening the curve, blah, blah, blah. They're so same, same in a bland sort of way that one is interchangeable with another that no one would notice the difference.

The Germans have much, much better healthcare. Nearly sure someone posted a chart here recently with their ICU figures that were vastly superior to most of Europe, in fairness.

The UK has been cutting costs on the NHS for years. Wasn't that long ago they were turning down payrises and now we are told to protect the NHS. Beggars belief really. Every Govt basically adapted a "we'll be gone when it comes home to roost" approach. Boris Johnson is taking a kicking on this thread but the real causation is the many, many previous Tory Governments of the UK.

fixed that for you.

Is the current Tory Government to take some of the blame for the previous Tory Governments of Cameron and May, but Cameron/Osbourne mostly who cut the shít out of NHS and local Government spending then that should be a yes as a lot of them were in Parliament over a lot of that duration and indeed were voting on these cuts and not paying the NHS staff a decent wage in recent years...

It's a very big yes from me.

[GetOverTheBar]

A decent wage for the NHS staff wouldn't have helped this though..well, perhaps more people may have taken to the profession in the meantime boosting staffing numbers I suppose but it's just a complete lack of investment all round and it's now been shown in the most clinical way.

When the coronavirus blitz passes and life begins to return to somewhat normal, (hopefully). The NHS will be booted from pillar to post again. It seems like it's the handest thing to strip to bare bones.....luckily they have been working and spending on a replacement for the Trident Nuclear Warhead in the meantime to teach this pesky virus a lesson soon.

[marty34]

No, your right trailer, test, test, test isn't the answer as the Germans will attest with a similar population to the UK but a fraction of the deaths.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-germany-defences-i/pass-the-salt-the-minute-details-that-helped-germany-build-virus-defences-idUKKCN21R1DB

The WHO aren't to blame for the ineptitude in the UK or US for that matter as the UK in particular was doing (or not doing) it's own thing much to the exasperation of the WHO.

There's going to be a shit fest in the UK after this and you can see snippets of some covering their holes already. When Hancock and the likes talk about following the science then you know that down the line the fingers will be pointed at these CMO's, CSO's who almost certainly have a part of blame to take but the decisions made not to bring in the lockdown sooner was based on the economy and not health.

The UK Government seems to be full of talking heads churning out the same tired old mantra, following the science, ramping up, flattening the curve, blah, blah, blah. They're so same, same in a bland sort of way that one is interchangeable with another that no one would notice the difference.

The Germans have much, much better healthcare. Nearly sure someone posted a chart here recently with their ICU figures that were vastly superior to most of Europe, in fairness.

The UK has been cutting costs on the NHS for years. Wasn't that long ago they were turning down payrises and now we are told to protect the NHS. Beggars belief really. Every Govt basically adapted a "we'll be gone when it comes home to roost" approach. Boris Johnson is taking a kicking on this thread but the real causation is the many, many previous Tory Governments of the UK.

fixed that for you.

Is the current Tory Government to take some of the blame for the previous Tory Governments of Cameron and May, but Cameron/Osbourne mostly who cut the shít out of NHS and local Government spending then that should be a yes as a lot of them were in Parliament over a lot of that duration and indeed were voting on these cuts and not paying the NHS staff a decent wage in recent years...

It's a very big yes from me.

Not at all, its all the Shinners fault - they have been in government in Stormont.

[seafoid]

A decent wage for the NHS staff wouldn't have helped this though..well, perhaps more people may have taken to the profession in the meantime boosting staffing numbers I suppose but it's just a complete lack of investment all round and it's now been shown in the most clinical way.

When the coronavirus blitz passes and life begins to return to somewhat normal, (hopefully). The NHS will be booted from pillar to post again. It seems like it's the handest thing to strip to bare bones.....luckily they have been working and spending on a replacement for the Trident Nuclear Warhead in the meantime to teach this pesky virus a lesson soon.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/01/conservatives-underfunding-nhs-made-crisis-inevitable

Before last November's Budget, health leaders warned that this fiscal famine could not endure. Simon Stevens, the NHS chief executive, requested a minimum increase of £4bn in 2018 (far below the £18.2bn - or £350m a week - promised by the Leave campaign). "2018, which happens to be the 70th anniversary of the NHS, is poised to be the toughest financial year," Stevens warned. After nearly a decade of austerity, he noted, Britain was underfunding the health service by £20-30bn compared to comparable countries such as Germany, France and Sweden. 

[Saffrongael]

A decent wage for the NHS staff wouldn't have helped this though..well, perhaps more people may have taken to the profession in the meantime boosting staffing numbers I suppose but it's just a complete lack of investment all round and it's now been shown in the most clinical way.

When the coronavirus blitz passes and life begins to return to somewhat normal, (hopefully). The NHS will be booted from pillar to post again. It seems like it's the handest thing to strip to bare bones.....luckily they have been working and spending on a replacement for the Trident Nuclear Warhead in the meantime to teach this pesky virus a lesson soon.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/01/conservatives-underfunding-nhs-made-crisis-inevitable

Before last November's Budget, health leaders warned that this fiscal famine could not endure. Simon Stevens, the NHS chief executive, requested a minimum increase of £4bn in 2018 (far below the £18.2bn - or £350m a week - promised by the Leave campaign). "2018, which happens to be the 70th anniversary of the NHS, is poised to be the toughest financial year," Stevens warned. After nearly a decade of austerity, he noted, Britain was underfunding the health service by £20-30bn compared to comparable countries such as Germany, France and Sweden.

Comparing apples and oranges, in Germany's case anyway. Funded totally differently

[RadioGAAGAA]

A decent wage for the NHS staff wouldn't have helped this though..

You do realise because of the crap wages paid many folks leave the NHS as quickly as possible, join subcontracting firms and then end up working for the NHS on a vastly increased wage - which is also reflected on the cost the NHS must pay that subcontracting firm for that individual's time?

Same hours worked at far more cost.

2018:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/13/nurseshortages-cost-nhs-24-billion-last-year/

... and thats in the telegraph! Which is as right leaning Tory supporting as you are likely to find outside the Daily Heil - so the real figures are likely far worse.


For instance, the Guardian in 2014:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/01/nhs-spending-agency-nurses-cuts

and things aren't likely to have improved from 2014 to 2018.


Outside of costs, some of the main things they could do is:
> Consultants in the NHS are exclusively contracted, so they cannot double job for a private health care provider.
> NHS facilities can only be used for NHS operations.
> Treble, even quadruple the number of doctors that are put through medical schools. Tell the BMA to do one when they complain.

Far too often, operations that simply cannot be done on the NHS can magically be fitted in privately, despite using largely the same people in the same operating theatre. Why is that?

[GetOverTheBar]

A decent wage for the NHS staff wouldn't have helped this though..

You do realise because of the crap wages paid many folks leave the NHS as quickly as possible, join subcontracting firms and then end up working for the NHS on a vastly increased wage - which is also reflected on the cost the NHS must pay that subcontracting firm for that individual's time?

Same hours worked at far more cost.

2018:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/13/nurseshortages-cost-nhs-24-billion-last-year/

... and thats in the telegraph! Which is as right leaning Tory supporting as you are likely to find outside the Daily Heil - so the real figures are likely far worse.


For instance, the Guardian in 2014:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/01/nhs-spending-agency-nurses-cuts

and things aren't likely to have improved from 2014 to 2018.


Outside of costs, some of the main things they could do is:
> Consultants in the NHS are exclusively contracted, so they cannot double job for a private health care provider.
> NHS facilities can only be used for NHS operations.
> Treble, even quadruple the number of doctors that are put through medical schools. Tell the BMA to do one when they complain.

Far too often, operations that simply cannot be done on the NHS can magically be fitted in privately, despite using largely the same people in the same operating theatre. Why is that?

All fair valid points, but if this pandemic had not hit. Would anyone care? That has been the root problem with the NHS basically since it's inception.