Graham Linehan on Twitter / Trans debate

[sid waddell]

Whoever runs the social media arm of The Body Shop will be looking for new employment today I imagine - or at least I would hope so

They call themselves "one of the most marginalised and vulnerable groups in society" but want to change the legal focus from sex to gender.
I wonder how it will pan out.

You think trans people are not one of the most marginalised and vulnerable groups in society?

I wonder who is more marginalised -  a billionaire author, or a group which experiences some of, if not the highest suicide rates in society - rates of attempted suicide among trans people vary from 32% to 50% by country. I'd be surprised if any other identifiable group of people experienced such rates.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

Actual suicide rates are highest for poor middle-aged men. Itinerants live on average 15 years less than settled people.
Working class life expectancy is far lower than middle class.

A lot of people have difficult lives.

Please provide some statistics that show poor, middle aged men have higher suicide attempt rates than trans people.

A lot of people have difficult lives, and I would say that there is scarcely a trans person who ever existed that hasn't had a difficult life.

Seems some here are content that their lives should be made as difficult as possible.

Suicide attempts don't tend to be followed statistically AFAIK Sid. It's deeply personal.
There aren't many middle aged trans either. Certainly not as many as cis unemployed males who are middle aged. It's the same numberswise regarding  trans vs women. There are more women.
  The trans movement in its current form is fairly young.

Well if they aren't followed statistically, you have no basis for saying that middle aged men have a higher rate of attempting suicide than trans people.

[seafoid]

Who is funding the movement ?

[sid waddell]

Who is funding the movement ?

Have you considered it might be a Jewish conspiracy*?

*That's satire of such anti-Semitic views, for the less bright readers out there.

[Tony Baloney]

Jesus Christ, an irony awareness indicator is required for this thread. Sid, you are guilty of everything you're accusing everyone else of.

Really?

I thought it was just that I had a low tolerance for utter bullshit, but there you go.

No, you are definitely a tool.

[tonto1888]

Who is funding the movement ?

What movement are you talking about

[Main Street]

My own slightly sitting on the fence view on the whole thing is .....  if someone else said they feel emotionally more like a woman and would like to identify as 1 I'd shrug and think ok fair enough.

excess snipped out from your message.
How far does fair enough go?
Men who have chosen to identify as female, no surgery no hormones, can just act out life as a woman, can compete as a woman in sports?
Can just walk into female changing rooms and take showers etc?

[sid waddell]

Jesus Christ, an irony awareness indicator is required for this thread. Sid, you are guilty of everything you're accusing everyone else of.

Really?

I thought it was just that I had a low tolerance for utter bullshit, but there you go.

No, you are definitely a tool.

Good argument. You've certainly showed me with it.

[Maiden1]

My own slightly sitting on the fence view on the whole thing is .....  if someone else said they feel emotionally more like a woman and would like to identify as 1 I'd shrug and think ok fair enough.

excess snipped out from your message.
How far does fair enough go?
Men who have chosen to identify as female, no surgery no hormones, can just act out life as a woman, can compete as a woman in sports?
Can just walk into female changing rooms and take showers etc?

Sport I think is unfair to have genetic advantage pre surgery. I'm not sure going into female communal showers happens much, shower cubicle probably.

Just leave them be ffs is my main point on Linehan. He doesn't need to send 20 messages per day on the subject, I'm sure most of them just want to be left in peace to get on with there lives.  He has a profile surely there must be something else happening in the world.

[screenexile]

My own slightly sitting on the fence view on the whole thing is .....  if someone else said they feel emotionally more like a woman and would like to identify as 1 I'd shrug and think ok fair enough.

excess snipped out from your message.
How far does fair enough go?
Men who have chosen to identify as female, no surgery no hormones, can just act out life as a woman, can compete as a woman in sports?
Can just walk into female changing rooms and take showers etc?

Sport I think is unfair to have genetic advantage pre surgery. I'm not sure going into female communal showers happens much, shower cubicle probably.

Most of Linehans arguments are hypothetical things that dont typically happen. If they go to the toilet it will be to use it the same as everyone else.

Trans women in weightlifting/cycling/athletics/boxing/UFC is plainly not fair and in the latter 2 cases downright dangerous for competitors.

Where do you draw the line though unequivocally we're supposed to accept someone who wants to identify as a woman to a fault ... there can be no boundaries to it as far as trans activists have it.

But clearly it's a huge grey area and a blanket "OK you're a woman now so you can enter women's prisons/play woman's sports/use women's bathrooms/ have a lesbian relationship" is not the right answer as these things are rife for abuses and there are plenty of examples of this.

Does it make me a transphobe to think these things am I suddenly an oppressor? I honestly have no real problem if someone wants to identify whatever they like but there have to be boundaries in cases where it is unfair to other people!!!

[sid waddell]

What I don't get is those people who say they are not transphobic and yet refuse to accept that trans women are women.

Like, accepting that trans women are women is sort of the whole point. If you don't do that, well, that's transphobia.

I mean, if somebody classed themselves as "not homophobic", but then denied the existence of homosexuality, well, they'd be laughed at.

[gallsman]

How is it transphobic? Who has decided that transwomen are women?! Again, just because f**king Daniel Radcliffe says it, doesn't make it so.

Transwomen are transwomen. Saying transwomen are women is conjecture and opinion, not fact. The fact that you and others just shout "transphobia" at anyone who questions it.

Your homosexuality analogy is completely false and you're not stupid enough to not know that. I haven't seen many people denying that transexuals exist, have you? Not believing that transwomen are women is not a rejection of the existence of transsexuality.

There was some self appointed twat may night doing a thorough breakdown of the Rowling letter. He claims rejecting the concept of "cis" is transphobic ffs.

[sid waddell]

How is it transphobic? Who has decided that transwomen are women?! Again, just because f**king Daniel Radcliffe says it, doesn't make it so.

Transwomen are transwomen. Saying transwomen are women is conjecture and opinion, not fact. The fact that you and others just shout "transphobia" at anyone who questions it.

Your homosexuality analogy is completely false and you're not stupid enough to not know that. I haven't seen many people denying that transexuals exist, have you? Not believing that transwomen are women is not a rejection of the existence of transsexuality.

There was some self appointed twat may night doing a thorough breakdown of the Rowling letter. He claims rejecting the concept of "cis" is transphobic ffs.

Jesus wept. You're literally proving my point. Denying transphobia by openly engaging in it.

[seafoid]

Who is funding the movement ?

Have you considered it might be a Jewish conspiracy*?

*That's satire of such anti-Semitic views, for the less bright readers out there.

I imagine some tech money must be behind it. It's an ideology with doctrine and rigid discipline.
Disadvantaged groups normally don't have the discipline and aggression that this crowd has.

I think they took on a huge challenge. It's not clear they can impose their world view on the cis herd 

[gallsman]

How is it transphobic? Who has decided that transwomen are women?! Again, just because f**king Daniel Radcliffe says it, doesn't make it so.

Transwomen are transwomen. Saying transwomen are women is conjecture and opinion, not fact. The fact that you and others just shout "transphobia" at anyone who questions it.

Your homosexuality analogy is completely false and you're not stupid enough to not know that. I haven't seen many people denying that transexuals exist, have you? Not believing that transwomen are women is not a rejection of the existence of transsexuality.

There was some self appointed twat may night doing a thorough breakdown of the Rowling letter. He claims rejecting the concept of "cis" is transphobic ffs.

Jesus wept. You're literally proving my point. Denying transphobia by openly engaging in it.

Says you. Get fucked.

Not once have I denied transphobia exists. Of course it does. Refusing to accept something is transphobic because you and some other gobshites say it is does not make it so, no matter how many c list celebrities come out to try and flog themselves as allies.

[MoChara]

With regards the Sport angle, there is no getting past the fact a woman who is trans has had the benefit of her previous life as a biological male, the benefit of increased bone density, a generally larger frame and the other residual side effects of higher levels of Testosterone.

The most sensible option I think I heard was have a biologically female category and an Open category, although I gather this will probably wind someone up as Trans woman are women as well.