The Minister, the Commissioner and the whistleblower

[Billys Boots]

I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.

What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.

Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.

I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.

Sorry Hound, if they're members of a political party then they don't have (personal) policies - they are part of a collective and therefore responsible for those policies and their effects.  In my world you can't join a political party without inheriting history.  If they want to have policies then they should run as independents and stand over those policies, instead of hiding on the back benches and availing of the collective purse to fund their campaigns. 

[Hound]

I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.

What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.

Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.

I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.

Sorry Hound, if they're members of a political party then they don't have (personal) policies - they are part of a collective and therefore responsible for those policies and their effects.  In my world you can't join a political party without inheriting history.  If they want to have policies then they should run as independents and stand over those policies, instead of hiding on the back benches and availing of the collective purse to fund their campaigns.

Billy, I know that individual members have to follow party policies, that obviously goes without saying.

"Inheriting their history" I do not agree with. For any election what a party is going to do next is what is important to me, along with of course what an individual's track record is.

I always vote for the person rather than the party. And I've nothing against independents. I haven't done my full trawl yet but at the moment my top 3 in the upcoming council elections are from FF, FG and Independent, while my top 2 in the euros are Green and Labour!

As for Seanie's view that the Irish political system is designed and intended to be corrupt and that society itself is inherently corrupt - well that's a different kettle of fish! If I thought the same way, there's not a hope in hell I'd sit on my hands and stay here moaning. I'd be up and gone with my family to find a uncorrupt society/system.

[magpie seanie]

I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.

What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.

Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.

I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.

Sorry Hound, if they're members of a political party then they don't have (personal) policies - they are part of a collective and therefore responsible for those policies and their effects.  In my world you can't join a political party without inheriting history.  If they want to have policies then they should run as independents and stand over those policies, instead of hiding on the back benches and availing of the collective purse to fund their campaigns.

Billy, I know that individual members have to follow party policies, that obviously goes without saying.

"Inheriting their history" I do not agree with. For any election what a party is going to do next is what is important to me, along with of course what an individual's track record is.

I always vote for the person rather than the party. And I've nothing against independents. I haven't done my full trawl yet but at the moment my top 3 in the upcoming council elections are from FF, FG and Independent, while my top 2 in the euros are Green and Labour!

As for Seanie's view that the Irish political system is designed and intended to be corrupt and that society itself is inherently corrupt - well that's a different kettle of fish! If I thought the same way, there's not a hope in hell I'd sit on my hands and stay here moaning. I'd be up and gone with my family to find a uncorrupt society/system.

Will you buy my house?

[AZOffaly]

Good look finding an uncorrupt political society.

Seriously though lads, who are we to vote for. If FF/FG/Labour are all toxic, who is left? That can actually form a government I mean?

[Billys Boots]

Good look finding an uncorrupt political society.

Seriously though lads, who are we to vote for. If FF/FG/Labour are all toxic, who is left? That can actually form a government I mean?

That's irrelevant AZ for local elections.

[MasterShake]

I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.

What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.

Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.

I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.

Sorry Hound, if they're members of a political party then they don't have (personal) policies - they are part of a collective and therefore responsible for those policies and their effects.  In my world you can't join a political party without inheriting history.  If they want to have policies then they should run as independents and stand over those policies, instead of hiding on the back benches and availing of the collective purse to fund their campaigns.

Billy, I know that individual members have to follow party policies, that obviously goes without saying.

"Inheriting their history" I do not agree with. For any election what a party is going to do next is what is important to me, along with of course what an individual's track record is.

I always vote for the person rather than the party. And I've nothing against independents. I haven't done my full trawl yet but at the moment my top 3 in the upcoming council elections are from FF, FG and Independent, while my top 2 in the euros are Green and Labour!

As for Seanie's view that the Irish political system is designed and intended to be corrupt and that society itself is inherently corrupt - well that's a different kettle of fish! If I thought the same way, there's not a hope in hell I'd sit on my hands and stay here moaning. I'd be up and gone with my family to find a uncorrupt society/system.

1. If you focus on the individual candidate rather than their party, and you believe that they don't necessarily 'inherit their history', does that apply to SF as well? (Apologies if you've already answered this elsewhere).

2. If "what a party is going to do next" is what is important to you, don't you risk limiting yourself to evaluating campaign promises / doorstep pledges?

[AZOffaly]

OK, sorry, maybe I missed that caveat, but to be honest local elections are glorified opinion polls where protest votes abound. When the rubber hits the road, and we're voting for our next government, who can you vote for if the 3 main parties are personae non gratae.

[magpie seanie]

You canot extract FF/FG/Lab from the past. The amount of people they have appointed to positions, boards etc. The networks they have built up with big business, bankers, civil service, unions etc. This is the real power in the country.

Agree with you AZ on the point of "Good look finding an uncorrupt political society." However, I think it would be difficult to find one where people accept as much and still vote for the same people as we do in Ireland. It's baffling.

[Billys Boots]

Yeah, I know what you meant AZ, but I think it's a very stupid thing for people to thinhk about national government when voting for local government - two completely different animals.

When you consider that the vast majority of people who become involved in political protests (of one kind or another) are in relation to issues very local to themselves, then applying national 'criteria' to whom they vote for in local elections would appear to me to be, ahem, short-sighted. in the extreme.

[AZOffaly]

I know. I went off on a tangent, but when I hear that people won't ever vote for FF/FG or LAB in an election, I ask who can they vote for. Mick Wallace, Ming or Clare Daly are not going to be forming a government.

[Hound]

1. If you focus on the individual candidate rather than their party, and you believe that they don't necessarily 'inherit their history', does that apply to SF as well? (Apologies if you've already answered this elsewhere).

2. If "what a party is going to do next" is what is important to you, don't you risk limiting yourself to evaluating campaign promises / doorstep pledges?

That's a good question. Sinn Fein still have the old guard at leadership level, so that's a bit different than FF. I'd have felt for a while that they'd need to get rid of Adams if they wanted to make real inroads down south. Funnily what has been shown in the last week or so is why Adams is leader and why McGuinness and MaryLou aren't. Admittedly I'm also coming round to the view that the good Adams has done has outweighed the bad, so its time to treat them like I treat any other party and view them on their policies.

(While completely unrealistic, what I would really love to hear/read from Adams is an account of what he actually did during the troubles. What his thought processes were at the time during any "operation" he was involved in or knew about. How he looks back on things now with the benefit of hindsight. With all he's done/achieved in recent years I'd love him to be able to be open and honest without fear of getting locked up)

Of course I still doubt I'd ever vote for SF unless their economic policies change. On another thread there's a SF campaigner (glens abu I think) blaming the multi-nationals and saying how we need to increase their tax rates - that's just ludicrous.

On the plus side, Pearse Doherty comes across really well. If they find more of his ilk they'll be a serious proposition.

[deiseach]

I know. I went off on a tangent, but when I hear that people won't ever vote for FF/FG or LAB in an election, I ask who can they vote for. Mick Wallace, Ming or Clare Daly are not going to be forming a government.

Dunno. When I have an answer, I'll let you know

[Stall the Bailer]

So Shatter only goes when it is made official in public what he done.
Scary to think what those in power must get away with when things are not reported/investigated or made public.

[Rossfan]

Indeed 
Had to laugh this morning when I saw on Sky News that a Committee of MPs want tmore transparency from the Brit Intelligence( Spy/Dirty Tricks) Agencies like MI5,6 etc.
They'll be waiting 

[muppet]

1. If you focus on the individual candidate rather than their party, and you believe that they don't necessarily 'inherit their history', does that apply to SF as well? (Apologies if you've already answered this elsewhere).

2. If "what a party is going to do next" is what is important to you, don't you risk limiting yourself to evaluating campaign promises / doorstep pledges?

That's a good question. Sinn Fein still have the old guard at leadership level, so that's a bit different than FF. I'd have felt for a while that they'd need to get rid of Adams if they wanted to make real inroads down south. Funnily what has been shown in the last week or so is why Adams is leader and why McGuinness and MaryLou aren't. Admittedly I'm also coming round to the view that the good Adams has done has outweighed the bad, so its time to treat them like I treat any other party and view them on their policies.

(While completely unrealistic, what I would really love to hear/read from Adams is an account of what he actually did during the troubles. What his thought processes were at the time during any "operation" he was involved in or knew about. How he looks back on things now with the benefit of hindsight. With all he's done/achieved in recent years I'd love him to be able to be open and honest without fear of getting locked up)

Of course I still doubt I'd ever vote for SF unless their economic policies change. On another thread there's a SF campaigner (glens abu I think) blaming the multi-nationals and saying how we need to increase their tax rates - that's just ludicrous.

On the plus side, Pearse Doherty comes across really well. If they find more of his ilk they'll be a serious proposition.

You could say the same for Bertie!