gaaboard.com

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Anyone else think this was way out of order on the Sindo's part?

The club handled the situation terribly and it's unacceptable to use that language when coaching u-12s, but tarnishing the name of two volunteers and sensationalising this matter with a journalist who doesn't seem to like or care about the GAA, was wrong of the Sindo imo.

I don't think O' Rourke, Brolly or Dermot Crowe would have touched this. Be interested to hear Brolly's take on it.

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 12:14:02 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Anyone else think this was way out of order on the Sindo's part?

The club handled the situation terribly and it's unacceptable to use that language when coaching u-12s, but tarnishing the name of two volunteers and sensationalising this matter with a journalist who doesn't seem to like or care about the GAA, was wrong of the Sindo imo.

I don't think O' Rourke, Brolly or Dermot Crowe would have touched this. Be interested to hear Brolly's take on it.

No.

A frequently used definition of news is that it is something that somebody, somewhere doesn't want people to know.

Two mentors broke GAA rules. That in itself is not the real story. While what the mentors did was against the rules, what they did were not, shall we say, hanging offences.

Had the mentors and the club held their hands up, admitted their mistakes and taken their medicine, as it were, this would not have become a story.

The problem, and what makes the story newsworthy, is the institutional closing of ranks by the club.

This involved:
i) Refusing to properly deal with the matter internally.
ii) A clear attempt to intimidate the complainants and the panel conducting the disciplinary hearing.
iii) A refusal to accept the outcome of the disciplinary hearing and attempt to spin an untrue version of such to the public.

There is something endemic within Irish institutions across all areas of society that leads to lack of accountability, denials and covering up. Institutional closing of ranks.

And it always, always, always makes things worse for the institution in question.

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 12:14:02 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Anyone else think this was way out of order on the Sindo's part?

The club handled the situation terribly and it's unacceptable to use that language when coaching u-12s, but tarnishing the name of two volunteers and sensationalising this matter with a journalist who doesn't seem to like or care about the GAA, was wrong of the Sindo imo.

I don't think O' Rourke, Brolly or Dermot Crowe would have touched this. Be interested to hear Brolly's take on it.

You really don't want to be starting another thread about a fûcking cover up.

I think centre half back is the ultimate risk manager. You anticipate problems and you smother them so nothing blows up. And they forgot that .

Junior C, Jeff

Quote from: sid waddell on May 07, 2018, 01:07:47 AM

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 12:14:02 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Anyone else think this was way out of order on the Sindo's part?

The club handled the situation terribly and it's unacceptable to use that language when coaching u-12s, but tarnishing the name of two volunteers and sensationalising this matter with a journalist who doesn't seem to like or care about the GAA, was wrong of the Sindo imo.

I don't think O' Rourke, Brolly or Dermot Crowe would have touched this. Be interested to hear Brolly's take on it.

No.

A frequently used definition of news is that it is something that somebody, somewhere doesn't want people to know.

Two mentors broke GAA rules. That in itself is not the real story. While what the mentors did was against the rules, what they did were not, shall we say, hanging offences.

Had the mentors and the club held their hands up, admitted their mistakes and taken their medicine, as it were, this would not have become a story.

The problem, and what makes the story newsworthy, is the institutional closing of ranks by the club.

This involved:
i) Refusing to properly deal with the matter internally.
ii) A clear attempt to intimidate the complainants and the panel conducting the disciplinary hearing.
iii) A refusal to accept the outcome of the disciplinary hearing and attempt to spin an untrue version of such to the public.

There is something endemic within Irish institutions across all areas of society that leads to lack of accountability, denials and covering up. Institutional closing of ranks.

And it always, always, always makes things worse for the institution in question.

The club handled it disastrously. No argument there.

Often those who complain most about volunteer coaches give precisely zero of their own time and expect the team to revolve around their child. I don't know if that's the case here but in the vast majority of these cases the complaining parent is a selfish pain in the hole and the coach is trying their best. Anyone who coaches underage teams these days would say that the parents are more challenging than the kids.

This was in the Financial Times a while ago. How to deal with a clusterfuck :

"It is not complicated.
Any half-competent flak knows the drill.
Own the bad news.
Make sure colleagues and partners are prepared;
go public quickly, clearly, and completely;
be accountable; be available. Candour is a sign of respect."

The father may be a gobshite. But manage that. Don't start the omerta.
It is very unfortunate.

I doubt there's a club administrator in any sport across Ireland who would, after reading that article, would anything but disdain for Paul Kimmage.

It's a borderline impossible situation as it stands being the facilitator of competitive leisure activities for the the children of inward-thinking, self-centred, paranoid and emotionally unstable parents, without Kimmage highlighting that it's possible to make local grievances into a national issue.

Moreover it now seems possible to taint an entire club and indeed the entire Association, because of a personal issue.... so long as you get the "right" journalist on the phone. Disgusting journalism if you ask me.

Quote from: thewobbler on May 07, 2018, 09:09:44 AM
I doubt there's a club administrator in any sport across Ireland who would, after reading that article, would anything but disdain for Paul Kimmage.

It's a borderline impossible situation as it stands being the facilitator of competitive leisure activities for the the children of inward-thinking, self-centred, paranoid and emotionally unstable parents, without Kimmage highlighting that it's possible to make local grievances into a national issue.

Moreover it now seems possible to taint an entire club and indeed the entire Association, because of a personal issue.... so long as you get the "right" journalist on the phone. Disgusting journalism if you ask me.

Totally agree wobbler. It is wrong to f**k a child out of it, but no need to bring it to the national press. As someone said parents can be more difficult to deal with.

As a football fan just looking in I would have lost alot of respect for the Athenry club after reading that. Handled very badly from start to finish!!!

Quote from: WT4E on May 07, 2018, 09:42:45 AM
As a football fan just looking in I would have lost alot of respect for the Athenry club after reading that. Handled very badly from start to finish!!!

To be honest i dont think anyone comes out of that article particularly well.
Poorly handled by the club and Kimmage comes across as  a sanctimonious p***k (not for the first time)

This is a typical piece by Kimmage. He sees this issue differently from those connected to the GAA and he gives full details of his research and after his usual preamble gives it warts and all.

You might not like the Sindo or Kimmage but you miss the point by leaping to attack him for bringing the issue to a platform beyond the news in the West where partisan views on the issue have already been played out.

The issue as reported is just another microcosm of life in Ireland.

Nothing new, nothing learned from the past and again the organisation, it's reputation and members in key positions are more important than making things right. It is easier to destroy reputations of individuals who complain than face up to challenging behaviour of a few.

The rules are for others, behaviour from years gone by continues with the blind eye in use and worst of all child protection regulations and guidelines and training programmes are for others with no relevance to 'us' because we are above them.

There is nothing surprising in this article or issue but those within GAA hierarchy should be really worried that it is being replicated across the country and an article giving a platform to its reporting will encourage others to make similar challenges and administrators to react in a similar way.

Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 07, 2018, 09:39:17 AM

Quote from: thewobbler on May 07, 2018, 09:09:44 AM
I doubt there's a club administrator in any sport across Ireland who would, after reading that article, would anything but disdain for Paul Kimmage.

It's a borderline impossible situation as it stands being the facilitator of competitive leisure activities for the the children of inward-thinking, self-centred, paranoid and emotionally unstable parents, without Kimmage highlighting that it's possible to make local grievances into a national issue.

Moreover it now seems possible to taint an entire club and indeed the entire Association, because of a personal issue.... so long as you get the "right" journalist on the phone. Disgusting journalism if you ask me.

Totally agree wobbler. It is wrong to f**k a child out of it, but no need to bring it to the national press. As someone said parents can be more difficult to deal with.

When you're in a hole stop digging.
They were clearly in a hole and rather than fix it they made it a lot worse. The mass meeting is the bit that annoys me the most. That's not on.

Naming the coaches is also wrong - they are volunteers and that shouldn't be forgotten. This article is a timely reminder for those of us that do coach. I've done the courses etc and thankfully haven't broken any association rules but i have had to deal with difficult and testing parents. Its hard going at times.

The victims here are the kids. They need to be playing and all concerned need to be big enough to find a solution to allow that to happen

Quote from: Owen Brannigan on May 07, 2018, 10:05:06 AM
This is a typical piece by Kimmage. He sees this issue differently from those connected to the GAA and he gives full details of his research and after his usual preamble gives it warts and all.

You might not like the Sindo or Kimmage but you miss the point by leaping to attack him for bringing the issue to a platform beyond the news in the West where partisan views on the issue have already been played out.

The issue as reported is just another microcosm of life in Ireland.

Well if it is being presented as life in Ireland it is incorrect.

Ireland isn't the issue. The GAA isn't the issue.

It is life across the world for competitive juvenile sporting clubs.

A lot of nutters make their way into managing underage teams and think they have landed the county job. Is about enjoyment and developing young players. If there was a coach fucing and blinding about my boys I'd ask him to wise up.I have seen it though thankfully not at my club

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 08:42:14 AM

Quote from: sid waddell on May 07, 2018, 01:07:47 AM

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 12:14:02 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Anyone else think this was way out of order on the Sindo's part?

The club handled the situation terribly and it's unacceptable to use that language when coaching u-12s, but tarnishing the name of two volunteers and sensationalising this matter with a journalist who doesn't seem to like or care about the GAA, was wrong of the Sindo imo.

I don't think O' Rourke, Brolly or Dermot Crowe would have touched this. Be interested to hear Brolly's take on it.

No.

A frequently used definition of news is that it is something that somebody, somewhere doesn't want people to know.

Two mentors broke GAA rules. That in itself is not the real story. While what the mentors did was against the rules, what they did were not, shall we say, hanging offences.

Had the mentors and the club held their hands up, admitted their mistakes and taken their medicine, as it were, this would not have become a story.

The problem, and what makes the story newsworthy, is the institutional closing of ranks by the club.

This involved:
i) Refusing to properly deal with the matter internally.
ii) A clear attempt to intimidate the complainants and the panel conducting the disciplinary hearing.
iii) A refusal to accept the outcome of the disciplinary hearing and attempt to spin an untrue version of such to the public.

There is something endemic within Irish institutions across all areas of society that leads to lack of accountability, denials and covering up. Institutional closing of ranks.

And it always, always, always makes things worse for the institution in question.

The club handled it disastrously. No argument there.

Often those who complain most about volunteer coaches give precisely zero of their own time and expect the team to revolve around their child. I don't know if that's the case here but in the vast majority of these cases the complaining parent is a selfish pain in the hole and the coach is trying their best. Anyone who coaches underage teams these days would say that the parents are more challenging than the kids.

One of the parents has given more than enough of his time and service to both Athenry and Galway.

You can't defend athenry on this. They tried to turn all parents against complainant, they clearly have senior coaches with no child welfare courses complete and then when the finding was made they mis-represented  the finding on their website. It's more than a few nutters as coaches you also have nutters on the committee too.

There are many clubs around where I live where the people at steering wheel are totally misaligned with modern thinking on coaching. I hope the article makes them open their eyes.

Quote from: clonadmad on May 07, 2018, 10:48:39 AM

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 08:42:14 AM

Quote from: sid waddell on May 07, 2018, 01:07:47 AM

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 12:14:02 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Anyone else think this was way out of order on the Sindo's part?

The club handled the situation terribly and it's unacceptable to use that language when coaching u-12s, but tarnishing the name of two volunteers and sensationalising this matter with a journalist who doesn't seem to like or care about the GAA, was wrong of the Sindo imo.

I don't think O' Rourke, Brolly or Dermot Crowe would have touched this. Be interested to hear Brolly's take on it.

No.

A frequently used definition of news is that it is something that somebody, somewhere doesn't want people to know.

Two mentors broke GAA rules. That in itself is not the real story. While what the mentors did was against the rules, what they did were not, shall we say, hanging offences.

Had the mentors and the club held their hands up, admitted their mistakes and taken their medicine, as it were, this would not have become a story.

The problem, and what makes the story newsworthy, is the institutional closing of ranks by the club.

This involved:
i) Refusing to properly deal with the matter internally.
ii) A clear attempt to intimidate the complainants and the panel conducting the disciplinary hearing.
iii) A refusal to accept the outcome of the disciplinary hearing and attempt to spin an untrue version of such to the public.

There is something endemic within Irish institutions across all areas of society that leads to lack of accountability, denials and covering up. Institutional closing of ranks.

And it always, always, always makes things worse for the institution in question.

The club handled it disastrously. No argument there.

Often those who complain most about volunteer coaches give precisely zero of their own time and expect the team to revolve around their child. I don't know if that's the case here but in the vast majority of these cases the complaining parent is a selfish pain in the hole and the coach is trying their best. Anyone who coaches underage teams these days would say that the parents are more challenging than the kids.

One of the parents has given more than enough of his time and service to both Athenry and Galway.

Quote from: longballin on May 07, 2018, 10:24:02 AM
A lot of nutters make their way into managing underage teams and think they have landed the county job. Is about enjoyment and developing young players. If there was a coach fucing and blinding about my boys I'd ask him to wise up.I have seen it though thankfully not at my club

F

Quote from: clonadmad on May 07, 2018, 10:48:39 AM

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 08:42:14 AM

Quote from: sid waddell on May 07, 2018, 01:07:47 AM

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 12:14:02 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Anyone else think this was way out of order on the Sindo's part?

The club handled the situation terribly and it's unacceptable to use that language when coaching u-12s, but tarnishing the name of two volunteers and sensationalising this matter with a journalist who doesn't seem to like or care about the GAA, was wrong of the Sindo imo.

I don't think O' Rourke, Brolly or Dermot Crowe would have touched this. Be interested to hear Brolly's take on it.

No.

A frequently used definition of news is that it is something that somebody, somewhere doesn't want people to know.

Two mentors broke GAA rules. That in itself is not the real story. While what the mentors did was against the rules, what they did were not, shall we say, hanging offences.

Had the mentors and the club held their hands up, admitted their mistakes and taken their medicine, as it were, this would not have become a story.

The problem, and what makes the story newsworthy, is the institutional closing of ranks by the club.

This involved:
i) Refusing to properly deal with the matter internally.
ii) A clear attempt to intimidate the complainants and the panel conducting the disciplinary hearing.
iii) A refusal to accept the outcome of the disciplinary hearing and attempt to spin an untrue version of such to the public.

There is something endemic within Irish institutions across all areas of society that leads to lack of accountability, denials and covering up. Institutional closing of ranks.

And it always, always, always makes things worse for the institution in question.

The club handled it disastrously. No argument there.

Often those who complain most about volunteer coaches give precisely zero of their own time and expect the team to revolve around their child. I don't know if that's the case here but in the vast majority of these cases the complaining parent is a selfish pain in the hole and the coach is trying their best. Anyone who coaches underage teams these days would say that the parents are more challenging than the kids.

One of the parents has given more than enough of his time and service to both Athenry and Galway.

Fair enough.

Being a stalwart of the association or a pillar of the community seems to be a great absolver from the rules.

The days of D'Unbelievables style coaching of young people has gone. Coaches need to either adjust to meet the guidelines and meet the expectations of parents who send their children to have a positive experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guT76kAPYs0

The club handled this very badly and you would hope they've learned a valuable lesson.
I think the article could have been half as long as it was and that would have been plenty, but that's Kimmage's style.
As much as I am a fan of his, I think he is looking around for a crusade since the whole doping in sport angle has become so mainstream.
He tried to go after cynicism in sport but that was largely on the back of his grudge against Jim Gavin and people saw through it.
Following this, it's likely he will become a lightning rod for similar issues with kids in gaa, soccer and rugby clubs all over the country.
And I am totally fine with that, as long as it is done properly.
With the child welfare/protection history this country has it's essential everybody follows the rules when they are looking after kids.
I'd agree that the actual incidents in this case were minor enough and it's the clubs own fault this became national news.

Also, the bit about the two 10 year olds being 'invited' to play with the u-14s?
That can't be right.

Snow flake children created by snow flake parents and lapped up by a gobshite like Kimmage.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on May 07, 2018, 12:56:29 PM
Snow flake children created by snow flake parents and lapped up by a gobshite like Kimmage.

You can hardly blame the parents when the GAA from HQ to the smallest club have a Code of Conduct, Code of Best Practice and Child Protection Policy all of which at the very least will discourage foul language and lashing lads into a dugout. Clubs cannot sign up to these and then not follow them.

Kimmage had no need to mention specific individuals in his article. The club have handled it very poorly but Kimmage could have just left it at mentioning the club as I'm sure there are good clubmen there who, despite being wrong in these specific instances have been poured blood, sweat and tears into the club and will get hammered now over this article.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on May 07, 2018, 12:56:29 PM
Snow flake children created by snow flake parents and lapped up by a gobshite like Kimmage.

One of the parents played hurling for Galway and was well able to flake.

Quote from: clonadmad on May 07, 2018, 10:48:39 AM

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 08:42:14 AM

Quote from: sid waddell on May 07, 2018, 01:07:47 AM

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 12:14:02 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Anyone else think this was way out of order on the Sindo's part?

The club handled the situation terribly and it's unacceptable to use that language when coaching u-12s, but tarnishing the name of two volunteers and sensationalising this matter with a journalist who doesn't seem to like or care about the GAA, was wrong of the Sindo imo.

I don't think O' Rourke, Brolly or Dermot Crowe would have touched this. Be interested to hear Brolly's take on it.

No.

A frequently used definition of news is that it is something that somebody, somewhere doesn't want people to know.

Two mentors broke GAA rules. That in itself is not the real story. While what the mentors did was against the rules, what they did were not, shall we say, hanging offences.

Had the mentors and the club held their hands up, admitted their mistakes and taken their medicine, as it were, this would not have become a story.

The problem, and what makes the story newsworthy, is the institutional closing of ranks by the club.

This involved:
i) Refusing to properly deal with the matter internally.
ii) A clear attempt to intimidate the complainants and the panel conducting the disciplinary hearing.
iii) A refusal to accept the outcome of the disciplinary hearing and attempt to spin an untrue version of such to the public.

There is something endemic within Irish institutions across all areas of society that leads to lack of accountability, denials and covering up. Institutional closing of ranks.

And it always, always, always makes things worse for the institution in question.

The club handled it disastrously. No argument there.

Often those who complain most about volunteer coaches give precisely zero of their own time and expect the team to revolve around their child. I don't know if that's the case here but in the vast majority of these cases the complaining parent is a selfish pain in the hole and the coach is trying their best. Anyone who coaches underage teams these days would say that the parents are more challenging than the kids.

One of the parents has given more than enough of his time and service to both Athenry and Galway.

That particular person doesn't come out of the whole situation covered in glory either. He however hasn't had his name sullied in the national media, whereas volunteers guilty of minor offences have. No doubt the club handled it badly, but I don't think there was any need whatsoever to name out the individual coaches

One fella on Kimmage's twitter feed reckons it was a 'quite harrowing read'.

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 12:14:02 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Anyone else think this was way out of order on the Sindo's part?

The club handled the situation terribly and it's unacceptable to use that language when coaching u-12s, but tarnishing the name of two volunteers and sensationalising this matter with a journalist who doesn't seem to like or care about the GAA, was wrong of the Sindo imo.

I don't think O' Rourke, Brolly or Dermot Crowe would have touched this. Be interested to hear Brolly's take on it.

I don't see Joe biting the hand that feeds him Asal.

Brolly & Kimmage are best buds anyway.

I find it utterly bizarre that some posters think Paul Kimmage is the problem here. Talk about burying your head in the sand.

There's a serious case of cognitive dissonance here for some people. GAA members like to think of their games as the "national sports". There's a clear implication by using this term that GAA sports are somehow more important and relevant than other sports. They like to think of clubs as the most important elements of the GAA.

Yet when a problem is highlighted in a club, many of them hide behind the "amateur status" line and blame the messenger.

This is part of a general pattern in the GAA that when somebody does something wrong, ie. if a player fails a drugs test, people try and sweep it under the carpet and/or excuse it based on codology like "ah, but they come from a very good family", "sure I know his father personally and I know he wouldn't have deliberately done anything wrong".

Basically, when club people are demanding change over fixtures or funding or something like that, the attitude is "we're important and demand to be heard".

When a cover up is highlighted in the media, the attitude is "it's only a club, this shouldn't be publicised".

Paul Kimmage isn't the problem here. It's parents, then the club, and very much in that order.

Quote from: sid waddell on May 07, 2018, 01:07:47 AM

Quote from: Asal Mor on May 07, 2018, 12:14:02 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/paul-kimmage-low-lie-the-fields-of-athenry-the-gaa-story-every-parent-will-want-to-read-36879150.html

Anyone else think this was way out of order on the Sindo's part?

The club handled the situation terribly and it's unacceptable to use that language when coaching u-12s, but tarnishing the name of two volunteers and sensationalising this matter with a journalist who doesn't seem to like or care about the GAA, was wrong of the Sindo imo.

I don't think O' Rourke, Brolly or Dermot Crowe would have touched this. Be interested to hear Brolly's take on it.

No.

A frequently used definition of news is that it is something that somebody, somewhere doesn't want people to know.

Two mentors broke GAA rules. That in itself is not the real story. While what the mentors did was against the rules, what they did were not, shall we say, hanging offences.

Had the mentors and the club held their hands up, admitted their mistakes and taken their medicine, as it were, this would not have become a story.

The problem, and what makes the story newsworthy, is the institutional closing of ranks by the club.

This involved:
i) Refusing to properly deal with the matter internally.
ii) A clear attempt to intimidate the complainants and the panel conducting the disciplinary hearing.
iii) A refusal to accept the outcome of the disciplinary hearing and attempt to spin an untrue version of such to the public.

There is something endemic within Irish institutions across all areas of society that leads to lack of accountability, denials and covering up. Institutional closing of ranks.

And it always, always, always makes things worse for the institution in question.

+1 Bang on Sid!

Quote from: thewobbler on May 07, 2018, 02:37:23 PM
Paul Kimmage isn't the problem here. It's parents, then the club, and very much in that order.

"The parents are the problem."

My word.

16 sets of problem parents of kids on the same team.

What are the odds?!

Show me where it states 16 sets of parents, and then let's start again.

Sid, do you think he was right to name the two individuals?
One had written a letter of apology following mediation and the complaint against the other was deemed inconclusive as there was insufficient evidence to uphold the allegation.
Is it fair to name them in a national newspaper?
Also, the letter had 16 'signatories', it does not say who they were.

The article also suggests that two 10 year old boys - primary school kids - made their own decision to stop playing with their schoolmates and peers, and preferred to play with 13 and 14 year old boys, i.e. secondary school boys, many of which would be going through puberty and would be physically twice as big. Creative licence on show.

I'd have a lot more respect for Kimmage if he had have called this one correctly  as parents stirring the pot. For that's what happened. His inability to provide an unbiased recount of events is actually making me suspicious of his "war on drugs".

I wonder what way Complainant A's emotive language differs from the emotive language of Paddy Kelly? 

As much as I like Kimmage, he's too fond of developing a subjective narrative in his writing.
Take the following example.

'Two days later, on Monday, March 13, he places a call to Gearóid ó Maoilmhichíl, the National Children's Officer in Croke Park, that goes straight to voicemail: "I'm not available right now, please leave a message. Go raibh maith agat."

He calls again.

"I'm not available right now."

And again.

"I'm not available right now."

And again.

"I'm not available right now."

And is almost spitting blood when he finally gets through.'

Now some people will read that and think the guy was being ignored.
However, it's much more likely that the complainant made multiple phone calls in a short space of time.
Ever come out of a work meeting to see a load of missed calls on your phone?
Kimmage includes this irrelevant detail for a reason.
To him it's another example of 'officialdom' thumbing its nose at the little guy.
A bit like Jim Gavin keeping him waiting at a press conference.

Big fan of Kimmage so when I began reading this article given the headline, I expected to read a piece on scandalous behaviour within the GAA such as child abuse or something similar. After finishing the article it appears as though that the club was guilty of little more than failing to follow proper procedure. It was a distinctly underwhelming article from Kimmage when you consider what a fine writer he usually is.

Using bad language and haranguing young children is very poor behaviour from coaches and they should have been dealt with more severely by the club but I thought it most unfair that names be published in a national newspaper for what is effectively a local dispute among a few parents and the GAA club. Not a bit of wonder clubs are finding it difficult to get parents to give of their own free time when an amateur underage sport is being scrutinised by a national newspaper. 

This is all a case of modern Ireland gone wrong. The GAA has rules in place. But are we seriously to believe that the children have never heard it before? In a playground etc? I don't understand why the father isn't named. Surely making his name public would add credence to his case? Instead of hiding behind anonymity... just in my opinion as well, we can't blame Kimmage for this. He covers the story, but he doesn't create it.

Because naming the father by extension names the child? What ever the rights and wrongs of naming the coaches surely everyone would agree an 11 year old child's identity shouldn't be in the public domain. 

Nobody should have been named other than those who spoke on the record.

All the ills in the world and PK picks on a U12 coach for using bad language. The club handled it badly. Sending 10 year olds up to U14 level was incredibly stupid thing to do what were the parents thinking. Feel a level of sympathy for the named coaches. PK is the most sensationalist eggit of a man.

Quote from: Jinxy on May 07, 2018, 02:54:21 PM
Sid, do you think he was right to name the two individuals?

Yes.

But they aren't even the individuals who come out of the article worst.

Stupid behaviour and breaches of protocol can and do happen.

The people who come out by far the worst are the people on the club executive.

They're the ones who have really dragged their club's name down.

And all because of pig headed ignorance.

Quote from: Therealdonald on May 07, 2018, 04:46:51 PM
This is all a case of modern Ireland gone wrong. The GAA has rules in place. But are we seriously to believe that the children have never heard it before? In a playground etc? I don't understand why the father isn't named. Surely making his name public would add credence to his case? Instead of hiding behind anonymity... just in my opinion as well, we can't blame Kimmage for this. He covers the story, but he doesn't create it.

He didn't create it. But nor is he covering it. Instead he's championing it. Championing it. And the problem he's going to run into should he wish to go on a crusade, is that it would be a crusade against volunteers. Which is something he will never gain support for, even in this modern world where snowflakes crumble into each others' arms on social media.

This isn't a Robin Hood scenario. It's attacking the poor to feed the poor.

I'd expect Kimmage has worked this out too.

Excellent post Wobbler.

The way things are headed no one will bother volunteering to coach kids. It's getting to the stage talking to them is a child protection issue. I've only been doing it 5 years and there has been a change imo. It's a culture of fear now. Is it really worth the hassle taking grief from parents who contribute dam all. It is rewarding and the kids are great. No better buzz than seeing them progress. But its getting mad. Litigation culture.

If some p***k in our club told my lad behind closed doors he wouldn't be getting playing for the club again I'd be having stern words with him face to face and then I'd be straight on to the County  Board and Croke Park to make sure he was nailed for it!!

The cursing thing wouldn't bother me a whole lot but I'd say mothers sticking around for training has a lot to do with it. They didn't do that in my time!

Something similar happened when we were U12 one of the lads complained to his Mum and it was relayed to the management team... they went mental and ran the shite out of the whole team that night and said this is the way it is when you want to win and he'd just have to get used to it and not run home telling tales!! That was that, he still played.

Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2018, 12:37:59 AM
If some p***k in our club told my lad behind closed doors he wouldn't be getting playing for the club again I'd be having stern words with him face to face and then I'd be straight on to the County  Board and Croke Park to make sure he was nailed for it!!

The cursing thing wouldn't bother me a whole lot but I'd say mothers sticking around for training has a lot to do with it. They didn't do that in my time!

Something similar happened when we were U12 one of the lads complained to his Mum and it was relayed to the management team... they went mental and ran the shite out of the whole team that night and said this is the way it is when you want to win and he'd just have to get used to it and not run home telling tales!! That was that, he still played.

Omertàs only tend to be beneficial in the mafia.

Quote from: Syferus on May 08, 2018, 01:57:56 AM

Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2018, 12:37:59 AM
If some p***k in our club told my lad behind closed doors he wouldn't be getting playing for the club again I'd be having stern words with him face to face and then I'd be straight on to the County  Board and Croke Park to make sure he was nailed for it!!

The cursing thing wouldn't bother me a whole lot but I'd say mothers sticking around for training has a lot to do with it. They didn't do that in my time!

Something similar happened when we were U12 one of the lads complained to his Mum and it was relayed to the management team... they went mental and ran the shite out of the whole team that night and said this is the way it is when you want to win and he'd just have to get used to it and not run home telling tales!! That was that, he still played.

Omertàs only tend to be beneficial in the mafia.

Also in the health service

Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2018, 12:37:59 AM
If some p***k in our club told my lad behind closed doors he wouldn't be getting playing for the club again I'd be having stern words with him face to face and then I'd be straight on to the County  Board and Croke Park to make sure he was nailed for it!!

The cursing thing wouldn't bother me a whole lot but I'd say mothers sticking around for training has a lot to do with it. They didn't do that in my time!

Something similar happened when we were U12 one of the lads complained to his Mum and it was relayed to the management team... they went mental and ran the shite out of the whole team that night and said this is the way it is when you want to win and he'd just have to get used to it and not run home telling tales!! That was that, he still played.

I'd say if that was the response of your coaches to a 10 or 11 year old then they were gobshites. Kids are still in primary school at that stage.

Why do you think he's an exile? !! ;D

Quote from: Itchy on May 08, 2018, 08:17:52 AM

Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2018, 12:37:59 AM
If some p***k in our club told my lad behind closed doors he wouldn't be getting playing for the club again I'd be having stern words with him face to face and then I'd be straight on to the County  Board and Croke Park to make sure he was nailed for it!!

The cursing thing wouldn't bother me a whole lot but I'd say mothers sticking around for training has a lot to do with it. They didn't do that in my time!

Something similar happened when we were U12 one of the lads complained to his Mum and it was relayed to the management team... they went mental and ran the shite out of the whole team that night and said this is the way it is when you want to win and he'd just have to get used to it and not run home telling tales!! That was that, he still played.

I'd say if that was the response of your coaches to a 10 or 11 year old then they were gobshites. Kids are still in primary school at that stage.

There's no question of that. . . the County final had to be stopped as 2 opposing mentors went at eachother with their hurls in the middle of the game. It was fairly dysfunctional if not a winning setup but it was 25 years ago so thankfully that kind of thing would be very rare now.

I don't think you should swear at 11/10 year olds but in the grand scheme of things I'm not going to write a letter to the club condemning it unless I thought it was overly excessive.

Under 12 shouldn't be competitive in my opinion anyway which should negate the need for that kind of behaviour and leave it more skills and fun based which is why I find it strange the Athenry U12 manager would be going on like that.

On the face of it, it looks bad. And the closing of ranks gives a wrong impression. I'm also given to understand that at least a couple of the complainants would have given good service to Athenry and Galway, so it's not necessarily snowflake parents.

However, a couple of lines that stand out to me make me wonder if there's not a subtly different angle at play here.

1 - The Athenry club man that spoke to PK was adamant in pointing out their focus on participation at U12, and their lack of success at that grade. To me that sounds like a healthy enough take on it.
2 - The comment that the parents weren't happy with this approach and wanted the lads to play up a grade with a better team. That rings true to me. Especially if the parents are competitive individuals, they may not like their young lads taking beatings at U12 because weaker players are being given game time. I see that in our own club, and you really have to manage the parents as much as the kids when it comes to that.
3 - The scenario that was claimed the kids would never wear an Athenry jersey again seems fanciful. I would also think that the ring of truth sounds more real in the clubs version there. 'Lads ye are getting a jersey for today, but ye are going to have to play with your own age grade from now on'.

To me it seems as if the coach may be a bit old school alright, but that was only used as an excuse to try and get the kids moved up.
It seems as if the club official who addressed the lads directly was in technical breach of the guidelines, but I don't think it was a major screw up.

I would suggest the parents are leveraging this to get their kids moved up to a more competitive team, or else want a change of ethos in the club at U12 level.
I also would suggest the club seems to have handled it very poorly to let it go that far.

Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2018, 12:37:59 AM
If some p***k in our club told my lad behind closed doors he wouldn't be getting playing for the club again I'd be having stern words with him face to face and then I'd be straight on to the County  Board and Croke Park to make sure he was nailed for it!!

The cursing thing wouldn't bother me a whole lot but I'd say mothers sticking around for training has a lot to do with it. They didn't do that in my time!

Something similar happened when we were U12 one of the lads complained to his Mum and it was relayed to the management team... they went mental and ran the shite out of the whole team that night and said this is the way it is when you want to win and he'd just have to get used to it and not run home telling tales!! That was that, he still played.

How do you know that is what happened though?
The chap was wrong to speak to the kids in the dressing-room on his own,
a) Because it's against the code of best practice
and,
b) There was no other adult there to witness the exchange.

Also, with respect to the swearing thing, my underage coaches all cursed like troopers, but it wasn't directed at us kids.
It was more "Come on ta f*ck, lads!" etc.
I never felt any coach was having a go at me personally and I was a lazy so-and-so.
Mind you, as kids we all cursed like troopers amongst ourselves (not in front of parents though) so we never batted an eyelid at bad language.

Quote from: Jinxy on May 08, 2018, 09:44:46 AM
Also, with respect to the swearing thing, my underage coaches all cursed like troopers, but it wasn't directed at us kids.
It was more "Come on ta f*ck, lads!" etc.
I never felt any coach was having a go at me personally and I was a lazy so-and-so.
Mind you, as kids we all cursed like troopers amongst ourselves (not in front of parents though) so we never batted an eyelid at bad language.

I don't think it is about bad language though. It's about how the institution responded.

Swearing isnt the issue by itself, I suppose its how it was used. "Come on to f**k lads" versus "you are f**king useless" and I dont think we know which. The issue is the reaction of the club committee in my opinion.

I think people also make valid points that there was no need  to name the coaches involved, it served no purpose in the article as far as I can see. Odd that the complainant wasn't named too.

Again, like a lot of issues, it's not black and white.
There is fault on both sides for me, and we have all seen enough of what goes on in GAA clubs, particularly at underage, when it comes to player selection etc. to know that we are not privy to all the details here.
I vividly remember the mother of a teammate going ballistic at one of our selectors after an u-16 game because her son had been left on the bench and a younger lad brought on ahead of him.
She was screaming in the selectors face, calling him every name under the sun, while her mortified child stood feet away bawling his eyes out.

The selectors shouldn't have brought on the lad from the u-14 team, but his mother shouldn't have reacted the way she did.
All she did was make a bad, but salvageable, situation infinitely worse.
In fact, I'm not sure if he even played for the club again after that.
In small, rural communities, bad feeling can linger on for years.
People refusing to speak to each other over a kids game of football.
Sad, but true.

Quote from: sid waddell on May 07, 2018, 06:40:26 PM

Quote from: Jinxy on May 07, 2018, 02:54:21 PM
Sid, do you think he was right to name the two individuals?

Yes.

But they aren't even the individuals who come out of the article worst.

Stupid behaviour and breaches of protocol can and do happen.

The people who come out by far the worst are the people on the club executive.

They're the ones who have really dragged their club's name down.

And all because of pig headed ignorance.

On first glance of the article it does look like the club were at best negligent in its attempts to resolve the issue as prompted to by the Galway Childrens officer to set up a review which the body of the article suggests they never bothered their arses, but the transcript of the call between the chairman and PK suggests that they did but the complainants didn't respond. Three sides to every story.
If I was anything to do with the Athenry club I'd be send Kimmage that correspondence and asking him to ensure that it gets in the public glare.
I get the impression there has to be more to this than a few fucks thrown about by a coach. I'd say the way the club closed ranks early on probably got the parents backs up and then the rule book was being read up on and the phones ringing. The crowd at the hotel for the second meeting is a bit OTT all the same.

I've had parents complain to me about coaches cursing and I'd have had a word with them and that would be the end of it. As Jinxy says some lads may curse but not at the kids directly and even at that there's a whole pile worse you could say to a kid and not curse. It's all to do with context which is lost in all these reports.

I've also had parents on the phone complaining about wee Jonny not getting on and saying its a child protection issue which really does my banger in. Do a bit of digging and wee Jonny is very seldom at training and expects to walk onto the team and I'm not talking fundamentals age groups where we do try to give them all a run out, I'm talking U16 and Minor.
Some parents really do need to have a word with themselves and the kind of children they want to rear.

Yeah, in response to the Kimmage article I saw one woman on Twitter refer to her own son not being picked for his football team as 'emotional abuse'.
I'm sure plenty of these types will come out of the woodwork in the next few days.
All with axes to grind, and all completely blameless themselves.

Quote from: Jinxy on May 08, 2018, 10:04:07 AM
Again, like a lot of issues, it's not black and white.
There is fault on both sides for me, and we have all seen enough of what goes on in GAA clubs, particularly at underage, when it comes to player selection etc. to know that we are not privy to all the details here.
I vividly remember the mother of a teammate going ballistic at one of our selectors after an u-16 game because her son had been left on the bench and a younger lad brought on ahead of him.
She was screaming in the selectors face, calling him every name under the sun, while her mortified child stood feet away bawling his eyes out.

The selectors shouldn't have brought on the lad from the u-14 team, but his mother shouldn't have reacted the way she did.
All she did was make a bad, but salvageable, situation infinitely worse.
In fact, I'm not sure if he even played for the club again after that.
In small, rural communities, bad feeling can linger on for years.
People refusing to speak to each other over a kids game of football.
Sad, but true.

Other institutions have dispute resolution mechanisms.  All it would need is someone trusted by both parties to hammer out a compromise acceptable to both sides The danger of doing nothing is that the emotions become toxic.
At the end of the day it is a sports club. It is not a feud specialist.

We have 3 under 12 teams. The way we do it is our first team is made up of U12s only. Our second team is made up of remaining U12s and some stronger U11s. Our third team is made up of U11 players only.

Every year we have parents giving out because player X is on the second team, or third team, and is better than a lad on the team above. We try to explain the approach we take. When we are splitting the U12s we don't ask 'How can we win this championship?', we ask of each player 'Will they be able to play at this level and enjoy it?'.

We could have won an U12 A championship in football this year if we played a couple of the strong U11s on the A team. But the U12s that actually played will gain more out of that experience, and that's more important than 4 mentors slapping themselves on the back after winning an U12 tournament.

Likewise the U11s that backbones the middle team will have learned a lot about leadership etc.

For what it's worth, the First team lost a semi final by 6 points after being competitive in every game.
The second team lost a semi final by 3 points after being competitive in every game.
The third team lost a quarter final by 1 point after being competitive in every game bar 1.

We were delighted with the lads, we gave games to 39 players and everyone was mad for it. But I know some parents are saying why did we not try win the A with the U11s. Even though that would have meant the second team getting a few bad beatings.

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 08, 2018, 10:58:29 AM
We have 3 under 12 teams. The way we do it is our first team is made up of U12s only. Our second team is made up of remaining U12s and some stronger U11s. Our third team is made up of U11 players only.

Every year we have parents giving out because player X is on the second team, or third team, and is better than a lad on the team above. We try to explain the approach we take. When we are splitting the U12s we don't ask 'How can we win this championship?', we ask of each player 'Will they be able to play at this level and enjoy it?'.

We could have won an U12 A championship in football this year if we played a couple of the strong U11s on the A team. But the U12s that actually played will gain more out of that experience, and that's more important than 4 mentors slapping themselves on the back after winning an U12 tournament.

Likewise the U11s that backbones the middle team will have learned a lot about leadership etc.

For what it's worth, the First team lost a semi final by 6 points after being competitive in every game.
The second team lost a semi final by 3 points after being competitive in every game.
The third team lost a quarter final by 1 point after being competitive in every game bar 1.

We were delighted with the lads, we gave games to 39 players and everyone was mad for it. But I know some parents are saying why did we not try win the A with the U11s. Even though that would have meant the second team getting a few bad beatings.

My club do something similar, the problem doesn't come from the parents with us. It comes from dinosaurs on the committee who think that winning at U12 is something to crow about. Thankfully we are weeding these guys out of coaching positions one by one (as their own kids get older) and we are working hard to get the right people involved at U6 and upwards from there. We actually have former county players involved at U6/U8/U10 who are now parents which is great and even better they are bought into the idea that its not all about winning. Unfortunately some of our neighbouring clubs we play in blitz's at U8 and U10 are hell bent on beating us (since no scores are kept i'm not sure on the point) but I am confident ours is a longer term plan which will work out well.

Yeah, most people will say the main thing is that the kids enjoy themselves but human beings are competitive animals, and that includes the kids themselves (once they go beyond a certain age anyway).
That's why you need a structure there to enforce (for want of a better word) fairness and give all the kids the chance to participate.
I remember I was the fastest runner in 5th class in my primary school and this other lad transferred in from another school that was faster than me!
Despite his best efforts, we could never be friends.  ;D
Haven't seen him in years, but if I met him out and about now, I'd probably challenge him to a race.

Quote from: Jinxy on May 08, 2018, 11:28:00 AM
Yeah, most people will say the main thing is that the kids enjoy themselves but human beings are competitive animals, and that includes the kids themselves (once they go beyond a certain age anyway).
That's why you need a structure there to enforce (for want of a better word) fairness and give all the kids the chance to participate.
I remember I was the fastest runner in 5th class in my primary school and this other lad transferred in from another school that was faster than me!
Despite his best efforts, we could never be friends.  ;D
Haven't seen him in years, but if I met him out and about now, I'd probably challenge him to a race.

Nothing wrong with being competitive. The kids have to learn that too. And they are naturally that way anyway, so you need to not coach that out of them. However, you can make sure that as coaches you show that competitiveness is fine, but you don't abuse people, refs, opposition or players. You don't whinge when you lose, and you don't gloat when you win. You are there to set an example of how to be competitive, and win in the right manner, and take your loss and learn from it too.

Try to win every game, but don't make decisions in the boardroom that maximise your chances of winning an U12, but minimises your chances of winning or even fielding a team when they are older.

Athenry didn't cover themselves in glory with how they handled the complaint by any means but Kimmage shouldn't have named the two people involved.

Having been a Juv Chair, Club Chair and lots of other county and national positions, I can honestly say that about 80% of issues I encountered in all that time were from pushy parents who felt their son/daughter were too good to play on a B team or their teammates on their own team weren't good enough for their son/daughter.

Quote from: heffo on May 08, 2018, 11:55:34 AM
Athenry didn't cover themselves in glory with how they handled the complaint by any means but Kimmage shouldn't have named the two people involved.

Having been a Juv Chair, Club Chair and lots of other county and national positions, I can honestly say that about 80% of issues I encountered in all that time were from pushy parents who felt their son/daughter were too good to play on a B team or their teammates on their own team weren't good enough for their son/daughter.

exactly
the parents just need to let the kids get on with playing and enjoying the games

Another thing that bugs me about the article.
Kimmage opens with the following quote:

No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where would we be?"

- George Orwell,

''Animal Farm'

Can someone explain the relevance of this to me?
Who is Comrade Napoleon in this case, the GAA?

Quote from: Jinxy on May 08, 2018, 12:18:54 PM
Another thing that bugs me about the article.
Kimmage opens with the following quote:

No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where would we be?"

- George Orwell,

''Animal Farm'

Can someone explain the relevance of this to me?
Who is Comrade Napoleon in this case, the GAA?

The ignorant coaches or club officers?

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on May 08, 2018, 12:34:04 PM

Quote from: Jinxy on May 08, 2018, 12:18:54 PM
Another thing that bugs me about the article.
Kimmage opens with the following quote:

No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where would we be?"

- George Orwell,

''Animal Farm'

Can someone explain the relevance of this to me?
Who is Comrade Napoleon in this case, the GAA?

The ignorant coaches or club officers?

I think he means the club chairperson in this instance. Although does that make him George Orwell? I wouldn't be surprised. He's a drug cheat and they tend to be jumped up.

As far as I can see, Croke Park has responded appropriately in this instance.
They would have been the obvious choice for Napoleon otherwise.
I dunno...

Quote from: Itchy on May 08, 2018, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 08, 2018, 10:58:29 AM
We have 3 under 12 teams. The way we do it is our first team is made up of U12s only. Our second team is made up of remaining U12s and some stronger U11s. Our third team is made up of U11 players only.

Every year we have parents giving out because player X is on the second team, or third team, and is better than a lad on the team above. We try to explain the approach we take. When we are splitting the U12s we don't ask 'How can we win this championship?', we ask of each player 'Will they be able to play at this level and enjoy it?'.

We could have won an U12 A championship in football this year if we played a couple of the strong U11s on the A team. But the U12s that actually played will gain more out of that experience, and that's more important than 4 mentors slapping themselves on the back after winning an U12 tournament.

Likewise the U11s that backbones the middle team will have learned a lot about leadership etc.

For what it's worth, the First team lost a semi final by 6 points after being competitive in every game.
The second team lost a semi final by 3 points after being competitive in every game.
The third team lost a quarter final by 1 point after being competitive in every game bar 1.

We were delighted with the lads, we gave games to 39 players and everyone was mad for it. But I know some parents are saying why did we not try win the A with the U11s. Even though that would have meant the second team getting a few bad beatings.

My club do something similar, the problem doesn't come from the parents with us. It comes from dinosaurs on the committee who think that winning at U12 is something to crow about. Thankfully we are weeding these guys out of coaching positions one by one (as their own kids get older) and we are working hard to get the right people involved at U6 and upwards from there. We actually have former county players involved at U6/U8/U10 who are now parents which is great and even better they are bought into the idea that its not all about winning. Unfortunately some of our neighbouring clubs we play in blitz's at U8 and U10 are hell bent on beating us (since no scores are kept i'm not sure on the point) but I am confident ours is a longer term plan which will work out well.

This is quite the insulting point of view Itchy.

My experience is that it's not committee "dinosaurs" who are hell bent on winning trophies at under-12 level, but it's the 10 and 11 year old boys.

And the pressure point that every club endures is when the needs of more-promising and more-competitive young players, locks horns with the needs of less-promising and less-competitive young players. That's when parents on both sides start to bare their teeth, or throw their toys out of the pram.

A committee can't actually win in this situation, as there will always be a tranche if young players disaffected by the direction taken. But I would say this. Young players with competitive instincts are innately much more likely to play and enjoy the game when it actually does get competitive - at u14, u16, minor, adult - so there is a clear longer-term benefit in making sure they get their full enjoyment out of u12 Gaelic Football.

I hope your club's policy of "winning isn't everything, in fact it's really not important at all", ends up paying dividends for you, I genuinely do. But personally I'd be wary, as efforts to please everyone rarely result in pleasing anyone.

You'll always get some parents trying to live vicariously through their kids, who think any perceived 'failure' reflects on them.
A bit of common sense is all that's required in most cases to resolve issues, but I think people are increasingly likely to go to war at the drop of a hat instead of just approaching someone for a face-to-face chat.
We are probably all guilty of losing the head as players, mentors and spectators at some stage.
You need to let the blood cool down before you try and address the cause of the conflict.
In small, rural communities there can be plenty of other variables that feed into the mix, "I never liked that fella" etc., which exacerbate the problem.
My father fell out with our senior manager years ago after he took my brother off in a big game.
Now, it was a truly bizarre decision at the time, but they'd barely talk to each other to this day.
Pride & loyalty to family are at the root of most of these internecine feuds.

Quote from: thewobbler on May 08, 2018, 01:33:05 PM

Quote from: Itchy on May 08, 2018, 11:25:23 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 08, 2018, 10:58:29 AM
We have 3 under 12 teams. The way we do it is our first team is made up of U12s only. Our second team is made up of remaining U12s and some stronger U11s. Our third team is made up of U11 players only.

Every year we have parents giving out because player X is on the second team, or third team, and is better than a lad on the team above. We try to explain the approach we take. When we are splitting the U12s we don't ask 'How can we win this championship?', we ask of each player 'Will they be able to play at this level and enjoy it?'.

We could have won an U12 A championship in football this year if we played a couple of the strong U11s on the A team. But the U12s that actually played will gain more out of that experience, and that's more important than 4 mentors slapping themselves on the back after winning an U12 tournament.

Likewise the U11s that backbones the middle team will have learned a lot about leadership etc.

For what it's worth, the First team lost a semi final by 6 points after being competitive in every game.
The second team lost a semi final by 3 points after being competitive in every game.
The third team lost a quarter final by 1 point after being competitive in every game bar 1.

We were delighted with the lads, we gave games to 39 players and everyone was mad for it. But I know some parents are saying why did we not try win the A with the U11s. Even though that would have meant the second team getting a few bad beatings.

My club do something similar, the problem doesn't come from the parents with us. It comes from dinosaurs on the committee who think that winning at U12 is something to crow about. Thankfully we are weeding these guys out of coaching positions one by one (as their own kids get older) and we are working hard to get the right people involved at U6 and upwards from there. We actually have former county players involved at U6/U8/U10 who are now parents which is great and even better they are bought into the idea that its not all about winning. Unfortunately some of our neighbouring clubs we play in blitz's at U8 and U10 are hell bent on beating us (since no scores are kept i'm not sure on the point) but I am confident ours is a longer term plan which will work out well.

This is quite the insulting point of view Itchy.

My experience is that it's not committee "dinosaurs" who are hell bent on winning trophies at under-12 level, but it's the 10 and 11 year old boys.

And the pressure point that every club endures is when the needs of more-promising and more-competitive young players, locks horns with the needs of less-promising and less-competitive young players. That's when parents on both sides start to bare their teeth, or throw their toys out of the pram.

A committee can't actually win in this situation, as there will always be a tranche if young players disaffected by the direction taken. But I would say this. Young players with competitive instincts are innately much more likely to play and enjoy the game when it actually does get competitive - at u14, u16, minor, adult - so there is a clear longer-term benefit in making sure they get their full enjoyment out of u12 Gaelic Football.

I hope your club's policy of "winning isn't everything, in fact it's really not important at all", ends up paying dividends for you, I genuinely do. But personally I'd be wary, as efforts to please everyone rarely result in pleasing anyone.

I dont know the size of your club wobbler but it is a numbers game for us. Example at U12 we have maybe 18 boys. Its 11 a side I think or maybe 13 a side. Either way its 5-7 subs. Each sub must get a substantion amount of playing time in our team to keep them interested and invested in the team. We do this as long term it will be 15 a side and even if we keep everyone playing thats only 3 subs. If we piss off 3/4 kids at underage we wont have a team. I am not even allowing for the natural drop outs who just have no interest - best will in the world there will always be 1/2 like that.

So we give everyone a decent shot on the field

-to make sure we have players coming through so we can field at next age groups.
-its our duty as a community club to look after all our children, weak and strong.
-to give kids a chance to develop. If you think every child has shown their full potential at 12 you know nothing.
- Even if a kids isnt going to be a top player, we want to keep them involved in our club as we need volunteers, coaches etc.

I never said we dont care about winning, it is just not the be all and end all.

The Dinosaur reference was to some committee members in our club, so unless you are in our club I am not sure what you find insulting. These are people who think you should only play your best 13 every game and give the useless ones 30 seconds at the end. You might win an U12 final but what about all the other points above. Stone age thinking and I make no apology for call it that.

There are GAA guidelines for Child protection:

http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/child-welfare-and-protection/ (http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/child-welfare-and-protection/)

If a club, member or GAAboard contributor doesn't agree with them they should work to get them changed.  However, no of these parties can decide that any particular guideline is not important ("A few fcuks never hurt anyone", "my club does X").  Once they get away with that then all guidelines are up for arbitrary dismissal by an individual or club.

These are are hard-learnt issues in Ireland.  That is why this is a hugely serious issue.

/Jim.

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 08, 2018, 03:20:48 PM
There are GAA guidelines for Child protection:

http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/child-welfare-and-protection/ (http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/child-welfare-and-protection/)

If a club, member or GAAboard contributor doesn't agree with them they should work to get them changed.  However, no of these parties can decide that any particular guideline is not important ("A few fcuks never hurt anyone", "my club does X").  Once they get away with that then all guidelines are up for arbitrary dismissal by an individual or club.

These are are hard-learnt issues in Ireland.  That is why this is a hugely serious issue.

/Jim.

A good point. I never thought of it like that.

Most sensible thread on the board at the moment, with no name-calling etc. My only problem is what are we protecting our kids from? I've young lads myself that aren't old enough yet to play though they soon will be and I'm dreading it because I see the u8 games in my own club and they are crazy. I just think this sets a dangerous precedent, all clubs nowadays (well almost all) have a notice or set of guidelines about respecting the referee, then come a Sunday in a league game its forgot about. Are these referee abusers (and I'm one) going to brought to justice as well? Maybe my point isn't being brought across well, but I think we've a few bigger issues than use of language. Is the parent not naive to think they won't hear this language anyway?

I don't think the language is a big deal, per se. I have no idea about the detail in Athenry, but I know I wouldn't be too worked up about an odd curse here or there. But you should never, ever curse or swear at a child. That's not right.

As for referee abusers, that's also wrong, especially at under age, but it's the coaches responsibility, as I said earlier, to rise above that. Again, in the heat of a game you can obviously find yourself saying things like 'ah ref, what's that for?', or whatever, but that's just being a human. What you can't do is f**k and blind at him, or call him a cheat, or blame him for losing of the game. This is where you become more than a technical coach, and turn into a role model.  I will never blame a ref for us losing, in front of the kids at least :) , and I won't let the kids blame him either.

I think there should be a designated official from each club at juvenile games, whose sole official role is to police the behaviour of the adults.
If someone from Club A is roaring at the young referee, then the designated official from Club A should have a word with them.
If they tell the official from their own club to GFH, their child is suspended for 2 weeks.
People are more amenable to one of their own telling them to calm down.

I coach both football and rugby, abuse from the sideline towards the referee and the opposition is horrendous in football, my own club has to ensure parents aren't pitch side. Rugby parents (fairly often the same parents) are nowhere near as bad but it's a growing concern so much that the IRFU have introduced silent sidelines, coaches are allowed only give instructions once per half and parents are pretty much only allowed applaud and that's it. Kids find it strange at first but the feedback is very positive from the kids.

The GAA need to change this culture.

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 08, 2018, 03:20:48 PM
There are GAA guidelines for Child protection:

http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/child-welfare-and-protection/ (http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/child-welfare-and-protection/)

If a club, member or GAAboard contributor doesn't agree with them they should work to get them changed.  However, no of these parties can decide that any particular guideline is not important ("A few fcuks never hurt anyone", "my club does X").  Once they get away with that then all guidelines are up for arbitrary dismissal by an individual or club.

These are are hard-learnt issues in Ireland.  That is why this is a hugely serious issue.

/Jim.

Spot on Jim.  Good post.  The guidelines and rules on child welfare are there for a reason and apply to every county, club and member of the Assoc.

Whatever the detail here, based on Kimmage's article, St Mary's Athenry don't appear to have covered themselves in glory.

I was being a bit facetious with my first comment as I know the pitfalls in all of this being both an u12 coach and also a parent and uncle of two of the players. It is all well and good to bring in the ideas of the 'silent sideline' as Dinny outlined but the thing is that the GAA is much more entrenched in the psyche of the average joe Irish man and woman then rugby is. It is also very much more 'tribal' in its outlook with less cross pollination between clubs then you might have in soccer and rugby so the inter generational aspect of the set up is more imbedded. As a result certain behaviour and patterns are let go due to 'sure he's not a bad one at the back of it all, look what he and his family have done down through the years '. Consequently in some clubs and locations there is a greater tolerance of behaviours whether we like it or not and there really isn't a one cap fits all. A simple example. Last year a young lad was coming into training and got out of the mothers car. She wound down the window and said 'he's a bit sore from school training' so I said that's grand he can take it easy tonight. Her words to me were 'go away and shite....run the shite out of him!'.  I laughed but she was serious as she said he needs to get himself up to the level to be ready for the next step up. I didn't run the shite out of him but her mindset would be similar to the mindset of many parents I know,  maybe not as clolorful in the language terms.

The point I am making I suppose is that in certain places and different things are more acceptable. It could well be that for years the behaviour of the Athenry was was acceptable and had been gaining good results hence he was given leeway. It doesn't make it right in everyone's eyes and certainly the club didn't deal with it right but to be honest Kimmage has made a bigger story out of something that could have been so much smaller in my eyes. It was advertised all week on Today FM as the story all parents need to know about a GAA club as if it's the template for all clubs and that parents need to be wary!  No harm but he's a pure bollix.

It looks like a bitter dispute because one of the parents wanted to form a breakaway club, according to my sources.
So it went far beyond effin' and blindin'.

Has there been no local media coverage of this?

Quote from: Jinxy on May 08, 2018, 09:12:24 PM
Has there been no local media coverage of this?

It's only Tuesday.  Maybe later in the week.

Instead of the headline 'The article every parent should read'
it should have read 'The article every juvenile official should read',
but that wouldn't fit Kimmage's agenda.

Quote from: seafoid on May 08, 2018, 09:08:06 PM
It looks like a bitter dispute because one of the parents wanted to form a breakaway club, according to my sources.
So it went far beyond effin' and blindin'.

I would imagine so. Effin' and blindin' not something that is acceptable either.
This story struck me like there were layers there. Kimmage comes out of this as the biggest tool of the whole story though.
A simplistic way to look at it is that there are two different types of clubs at underage. Those that have barely enough numbers to field a team and those with large numbers that struggle to keep kids and their parents sweet because of who gets to play most or at all.

Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 08, 2018, 05:00:06 PM
I coach both football and rugby, abuse from the sideline towards the referee and the opposition is horrendous in football, my own club has to ensure parents aren't pitch side. Rugby parents (fairly often the same parents) are nowhere near as bad but it's a growing concern so much that the IRFU have introduced silent sidelines, coaches are allowed only give instructions once per half and parents are pretty much only allowed applaud and that's it. Kids find it strange at first but the feedback is very positive from the kids.

The GAA need to change this culture.

Dinny - silent sidelines, how do you find this works? I'm trying to implement this with our coaches u6-u10 atm and it's actually harder than it sounds. Focusing more on our own coaches to get them comfortable with it rather than other teams that come to our place to play. Without some type of pregame notice, lollipops to distract the parents during gameplay or silent sideline enforcers at every underage game it'd be a nightmare to police.

You have to get parents actively involved also I think.
Get a few of them to volunteer so you have at least two for every game, give them high viz vests (no one argues with a high viz vest) and let them police the adults.

What is most striking about this imo was the threat to start a new club. Athenry is an amalgamation of at least 3 clubs so there is a history of dysfunction and mé féining  in the parish. This mess threatened to reopen the wound.

On the surface it was about parents but it went a lot deeper.
Typical Galway hurling as well I think. Far too much emotion.

And presumably no coincidence that the senior team is poor and there was no club player on the Galway team that won last year's all Ireland.

Quote from: seafoid on May 09, 2018, 12:54:05 PM
What is most striking about this imo was the threat to start a new club. Athenry is an amalgamation of at least 3 clubs so there is a history of dysfunction and mé féining  in the parish. This mess threatened to reopen the wound.

On the surface it was about parents but it went a lot deeper.
Typical Galway hurling as well I think. Far too much emotion.

And presumably no coincidence that the senior team is poor and there was no club player on the Galway team that won last year's all Ireland.

Certainly puts a different light on it. Why did the author not mention this?? I've seen a couple of amalgamations down the years that turned into this back biting like this.

Quote from: Itchy on May 09, 2018, 01:06:57 PM

Quote from: seafoid on May 09, 2018, 12:54:05 PM
What is most striking about this imo was the threat to start a new club. Athenry is an amalgamation of at least 3 clubs so there is a history of dysfunction and mé féining  in the parish. This mess threatened to reopen the wound.

On the surface it was about parents but it went a lot deeper.
Typical Galway hurling as well I think. Far too much emotion.

And presumably no coincidence that the senior team is poor and there was no club player on the Galway team that won last year's all Ireland.

Certainly puts a different light on it. Why did the author not mention this?? I've seen a couple of amalgamations down the years that turned into this back biting like this.

I'm betting it's a difference about ethos as well, as I mentioned earlier.

I have been coaching for the last 4 years. Getting the parents involved is dodgy they need to do a foundation level course and legally have to be Gardai vetted. Most parents run when they hear this. The days of asking a parent in for help is coming to an end.h

Even if there is more to this than meets the eye, the club would be well-advised to just take their medicine and move on.
There's no percentage in fighting your corner via the national media in a case like this as the bigger guy in the conflict will always look like the bad guy to the casual observer.
Especially when it concerns an issue as emotive as child protection.

Quote from: Jinxy on May 09, 2018, 03:31:09 PM
Even if there is more to this than meets the eye, the club would be well-advised to just take their medicine and move on.
There's no percentage in fighting your corner via the national media in a case like this as the bigger guy in the conflict will always look like the bad guy to the casual observer.
Especially when it concerns an issue as emotive as child protection.

The club needs a Winston Wolf figure . It needs to stop digging. It needs to fix the problem.

https://youtu.be/ANPsHKpti48

One area that was glossed over in the article but where the hell were two 11 year olds going to play u14s?! So they didn't like their own age group so they bugger off? That would get a rise out of any underage coach.
They club come out of this very poorly no matter what way it's spun but the parents are far from blameless too.

Galway brought in a bye-law around 1966 that there could only be one club per parish.  On the assumption that bye-law is still there, starting a breakaway club is a non runner.

Quote from: seafoid on May 09, 2018, 12:54:05 PM
What is most striking about this imo was the threat to start a new club. Athenry is an amalgamation of at least 3 clubs so there is a history of dysfunction and mé féining  in the parish. This mess threatened to reopen the wound.

On the surface it was about parents but it went a lot deeper.
Typical Galway hurling as well I think. Far too much emotion.

And presumably no coincidence that the senior team is poor and there was no club player on the Galway team that won last year's all Ireland.

This has a huge effect on the national Feile next month.
There's a club from Laois in limbo as they don't know if they've a club to travel down to for the Feile weekend
Plus athenry was  meant to host games

What were they specifically suspended for anyway?

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on May 07, 2018, 10:02:06 AM

Quote from: WT4E on May 07, 2018, 09:42:45 AM
As a football fan just looking in I would have lost alot of respect for the Athenry club after reading that. Handled very badly from start to finish!!!

To be honest i dont think anyone comes out of that article particularly well.
Poorly handled by the club and Kimmage comes across as  a sanctimonious p***k (not for the first time)

I agree both come out bad . Our club have sent out a note on it at the end of the day volunteers or not in this day and age you need to have a process for dealing with complaints I feel that now that it has been raised at such a level all clubs,volunteers etc take note. In my experience it can happen in all sports (soccer, rugby, Gaa) As a parent I am always in attendance at every match and train8ng session and as a coach I get to know all the parents . I find parents have a different views on bad language but don't use it myself