A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[yellowcard]

The economics of a United ireland are important, but really will not be the deciding factor. Even allowing for the demographics and a section of unionists being soft on the Union, the question is what do we do with the guys who believe that sticking flags on lamposts and marching down catholic streets is culture? They will never accept a UI.

Economics are needed to get the sensible people on board.
What is the alternative, that a nationalist majority accept being a colony for all time because of a few head cases?

What about the non-nationalists who believe they are nationalist in aspiration or culturally but do not want the upheaval and seismic change to their existence that a UI would mean?  They make up a sizeable number.  They are happy enough to be in 'a colony for all time'.

A non-nationalist who believes they are nationalist in aspiration. Would that not be a nationalist then?

And if these 'non-nationalists who are nationalist in aspiration' are happy enough to be in a colony for all time then surely they aren't a nationalist anyway, they would be a unionist. 

[armaghniac]

And if these 'non-nationalists who are nationalist in aspiration' are happy enough to be in a colony for all time then surely they aren't a nationalist anyway, they would be a unionist.

A nationalist who isn't realistic is a nationalist in name only, as a person who does not wish to advance things.

There should be a few smart taigs to come up with a plan
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-47-of-higher-education-students-are-catholics-and-30-protestants-35874614.html

[BennyCake]

The economics of a United ireland are important, but really will not be the deciding factor. Even allowing for the demographics and a section of unionists being soft on the Union, the question is what do we do with the guys who believe that sticking flags on lamposts and marching down catholic streets is culture? They will never accept a UI.

Economics are needed to get the sensible people on board.
What is the alternative, that a nationalist majority accept being a colony for all time because of a few head cases?

What about the non-nationalists who believe they are nationalist in aspiration or culturally but do not want the upheaval and seismic change to their existence that a UI would mean?  They make up a sizeable number.  They are happy enough to be in 'a colony for all time'.

Well, to be fair. This could include many innocent, peaceful people who have come through 30 odd years of the Troubles, and experienced murder, interrogation, violence, sectarianism, injury, fear, depression, discrimination etc etc. And now all they want is to live in peace, and see them and their families live in peace. If that's in a British statelet, so be it.

[armaghniac]

The economics of a United ireland are important, but really will not be the deciding factor. Even allowing for the demographics and a section of unionists being soft on the Union, the question is what do we do with the guys who believe that sticking flags on lamposts and marching down catholic streets is culture? They will never accept a UI.

Economics are needed to get the sensible people on board.
What is the alternative, that a nationalist majority accept being a colony for all time because of a few head cases?

What about the non-nationalists who believe they are nationalist in aspiration or culturally but do not want the upheaval and seismic change to their existence that a UI would mean?  They make up a sizeable number.  They are happy enough to be in 'a colony for all time'.

Well, to be fair. This could include many innocent, peaceful people who have come through 30 odd years of the Troubles, and experienced murder, interrogation, violence, sectarianism, injury, fear, depression, discrimination etc etc. And now all they want is to live in peace, and see them and their families live in peace. If that's in a British statelet, so be it.

That's fine, but how do you then get rid of the discrimination and the sectarianism?

[BennyCake]

The economics of a United ireland are important, but really will not be the deciding factor. Even allowing for the demographics and a section of unionists being soft on the Union, the question is what do we do with the guys who believe that sticking flags on lamposts and marching down catholic streets is culture? They will never accept a UI.

Economics are needed to get the sensible people on board.
What is the alternative, that a nationalist majority accept being a colony for all time because of a few head cases?

What about the non-nationalists who believe they are nationalist in aspiration or culturally but do not want the upheaval and seismic change to their existence that a UI would mean?  They make up a sizeable number.  They are happy enough to be in 'a colony for all time'.

Well, to be fair. This could include many innocent, peaceful people who have come through 30 odd years of the Troubles, and experienced murder, interrogation, violence, sectarianism, injury, fear, depression, discrimination etc etc. And now all they want is to live in peace, and see them and their families live in peace. If that's in a British statelet, so be it.

That's fine, but how do you then get rid of the discrimination and the sectarianism?

You don't. Not totally. But at least there's no British army, UDR, RUC in your face everyday. PSNI are still scum, but they won't get away with a lot of the shite they did decades ago. Nor does the relatively peaceful climate allow them to.

[yellowcard]

The economics of a United ireland are important, but really will not be the deciding factor. Even allowing for the demographics and a section of unionists being soft on the Union, the question is what do we do with the guys who believe that sticking flags on lamposts and marching down catholic streets is culture? They will never accept a UI.

Economics are needed to get the sensible people on board.
What is the alternative, that a nationalist majority accept being a colony for all time because of a few head cases?

What about the non-nationalists who believe they are nationalist in aspiration or culturally but do not want the upheaval and seismic change to their existence that a UI would mean?  They make up a sizeable number.  They are happy enough to be in 'a colony for all time'.

Well, to be fair. This could include many innocent, peaceful people who have come through 30 odd years of the Troubles, and experienced murder, interrogation, violence, sectarianism, injury, fear, depression, discrimination etc etc. And now all they want is to live in peace, and see them and their families live in peace. If that's in a British statelet, so be it.

That's entirely their perogative and I totally accept that there are people who may have been victims of the trouble's or suffered from some of the issues that you have raised. It's entirely rational that they may retain some bitterness which will perhaps take another generation to subside as the worst of the troubles become a distant memory and the political decision makers no longer have any links to the armed conflict. Whether catholic or protestant though, anyone wishing to retain the status quo of retaining the 6 counties within the UK, is by definition a Unionist.   

[BennyCake]

Wishing the uk to retain the 6 counties, yes that's a unionist. But if someone doesn't give a f**k either way, is that a unionist?

[armaghniac]

Wishing the uk to retain the 6 counties, yes that's a unionist. But if someone doesn't give a f**k either way, is that a unionist?

In some ways that is worse, unionists are generally unionists because they were brought up that way, dysfunction passed on from generation to generation. Mé féiners don't have that excuse.

[Owen Brannigan]

Wishing the uk to retain the 6 counties, yes that's a unionist. But if someone doesn't give a f**k either way, is that a unionist?

In some ways that is worse, unionists are generally unionists because they were brought up that way, dysfunction passed on from generation to generation. Mé féiners don't have that excuse.

It is only dysfunction in your opinion and no more dysfunctional than those who would plunge the country into years of further violence by forcing through a UI on the basis 50% + 1 or those on both sides who continued violence since the initial power sharing agreement at Sunningdale (mostly violence for the sake of violence).

Probably better to recognise that there are cultural nationalist who are pro-union with GB rather than expressing them as unionists given the connotation of such terminology.  The great fear for SF is that any stability that working through Stormont would bring will create more cultural nationalists who are pro union and even a growing number of SF republicans who are at best agnostic on the union with GB and at worst (for SF) pro union.  On the other hand, failure to work Stormont will result in direct rule, which for the foreseeable future with the DUP in charge of the Tories, will be as benign as the assembly in terms of the economy and softening of austerity that is gripping the UK.

[omaghjoe]

Cultural Nationlist Unionists ......

Im not accusing anyone ...tho I think its fair to say Quislings would be more accurate a term

[armaghniac]

If you are wish the union to continue when there is a means to end it then you are Unionist. What else are you?

[Owen Brannigan]

Cultural Nationlist Unionists ......

Im not accusing anyone ...tho I think its fair to say Quislings would be more accurate a term

That's the type of sneering that does not create a warm UI house for a significant number of the NI population who do not vote for the Unionist political parties and consider themselves to be Irish. Probably less acceptable when it comes from someone who does not live in this part of the world if I am correct in reading your posts.

[omaghjoe]

Cultural Nationlist Unionists ......

Im not accusing anyone ...tho I think its fair to say Quislings would be more accurate a term

That's the type of sneering that does not create a warm UI house for a significant number of the NI population who do not vote for the Unionist political parties and consider themselves to be Irish. Probably less acceptable when it comes from someone who does not live in this part of the world if I am correct in reading your posts.

Ah Bless your a sensitive soul TYP. What has my location got to do with my comments and how you see them? Anyway how do you know Im not a bot?

So lets thrash this out..... You consider yourself Nationalist but not a Unionist?

The very definition of a Nationalist in NI is someone who wants a single sovereign country reigning over the entire island, primarily from an administration based in Dublin. You've explicitly said that you dont want that so....you cant be one, cultural (whatever that means) or otherwise.

The definition of a Unionist in NI is someone who wants the 6 counties and indeed the other countries on the island of Britian to remain under the sovereignty of the UK. Which you've said is your preference.... so I think that defines you as a Unionist within the common understanding in NI.

So which are you? If your a Nationalist I could only presume your a British Nationalist, now couple that with not being a Unionist I could only presume that you wish the UK to be ruled as one country with the countries within and their regional administrations within dissolved.

It looks like your trying to say is there is this group of people that I associate with and do the same thing a but I'm actually against the thing that binds us all together because your worried about a bunch of thugs?

[Avondhu star]

Cultural Nationlist Unionists ......

Im not accusing anyone ...tho I think its fair to say Quislings would be more accurate a term

That's the type of sneering that does not create a warm UI house for a significant number of the NI population who do not vote for the Unionist political parties and consider themselves to be Irish. Probably less acceptable when it comes from someone who does not live in this part of the world if I am correct in reading your posts.

Ah Bless your a sensitive soul TYP. What has my location got to do with my comments and how you see them? Anyway how do you know Im not a bot?

So lets thrash this out..... You consider yourself Nationalist but not a Unionist?

The very definition of a Nationalist in NI is someone who wants a single sovereign country reigning over the entire island, primarily from an administration based in Dublin. You've explicitly said that you dont want that so....you cant be one, cultural (whatever that means) or otherwise.

The definition of a Unionist in NI is someone who wants the 6 counties and indeed the other countries on the island of Britian to remain under the sovereignty of the UK. Which you've said is your preference.... so I think that defines you as a Unionist within the common understanding in NI.

So which are you? If your a Nationalist I could only presume your a British Nationalist, now couple that with not being a Unionist I could only presume that you wish the UK to be ruled as one country with the countries within and their regional administrations within dissolved.

It looks like your trying to say is there is this group of people that I associate with and do the same thing a but I'm actually against the thing that binds us all together because your worried about a bunch of thugs?

More verbal diarrhoea.

[yellowcard]

Cultural Nationlist Unionists ......

Im not accusing anyone ...tho I think its fair to say Quislings would be more accurate a term

That's the type of sneering that does not create a warm UI house for a significant number of the NI population who do not vote for the Unionist political parties and consider themselves to be Irish. Probably less acceptable when it comes from someone who does not live in this part of the world if I am correct in reading your posts.

Ah Bless your a sensitive soul TYP. What has my location got to do with my comments and how you see them? Anyway how do you know Im not a bot?

So lets thrash this out..... You consider yourself Nationalist but not a Unionist?

The very definition of a Nationalist in NI is someone who wants a single sovereign country reigning over the entire island, primarily from an administration based in Dublin. You've explicitly said that you dont want that so....you cant be one, cultural (whatever that means) or otherwise.

The definition of a Unionist in NI is someone who wants the 6 counties and indeed the other countries on the island of Britian to remain under the sovereignty of the UK. Which you've said is your preference.... so I think that defines you as a Unionist within the common understanding in NI.

So which are you? If your a Nationalist I could only presume your a British Nationalist, now couple that with not being a Unionist I could only presume that you wish the UK to be ruled as one country with the countries within and their regional administrations within dissolved.

It looks like your trying to say is there is this group of people that I associate with and do the same thing a but I'm actually against the thing that binds us all together because your worried about a bunch of thugs?

Personally speaking I don't really understand this mentality either but the reality is that there are catholic soft unionists such as you describe and these are the people who are going to be the deciding factor when it comes to the constitutional issue and a border poll.