China Coronavirus

Started by lurganblue, January 23, 2020, 09:52:32 AM

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Angelo

The problem is people like Lenny, who don't know their arse from their elbow, spreading lies about what this vaccine achieves.

There is no proof to date that this vaccine stops infection and stops transmission. The upside is that the vaccines at best reduces the chance of you getting a severe dose of the illness or dying. So posters who are pedaling out this myth really need to be called out.

The bottom line is that if you are u40 and fit and healthy then this virus is not a threat to you, or a minimal one - the data shows this true.

So the only upside for a person like me, it will give me a milder form of infection. I'd have concerns about how rushed through the whole vaccine process is, vaccinate the at risk categories and whoever else feels free to want to get one and let's get on with things.

GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

Taylor

Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 23, 2021, 04:05:19 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 23, 2021, 03:15:24 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 23, 2021, 01:56:55 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 23, 2021, 01:33:48 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 23, 2021, 01:31:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 23, 2021, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 23, 2021, 01:16:45 PM
To the people who are having doubts about the vaccine - or just downright refusing it.

You do know that if not enough people get it then the chances of it mutating into something else (and causing many many more lockdowns and deaths) is much higher - thats the way virus' work.

So if we just settle for some of the population getting vaccinated what is your solution to eradicate or reduce this virus?

Will you be content with more lockdowns when the time comes and it mutates?

I am just trying to see some logical rationale here and what your alternatives are.

Your fundamental point is incorrect.

The only verifiable upside of a vaccine is that it reduces severity of the virus. It does not reduce people cathcing it or transmitting it that has been proven yet. It does not stop the vaccine from mutating that been proven yet.

The whole premise of your argument is flawed.

For the likes of me, someone fit and healthy in the u40 category, there is no upside to the vaccine for me that would encourage me to take it? It's not going to save my life, all it might do is give me a rather milder dose of something that is not going to cause problems anyway. But yet there are a number of zealots here who demand people should not have free will to decide whether they want to get an injection or not and there are a lot of genuine grounds for people having reservations that people are ignoring. It's basically fascism that people are trying to force this vaccine on the general population.

I don't know if anyone will take that argument on with you Angelo. It's fair enough.

Look this is just going to be a life choice - You can't force people to have a vaccine, it's just immoral to suggest anyone take something they don't want to. That is the world, thankfully we live in.

I think we ran a poll here again recently and it was heavily in favour of those who would take the vaccine, but if you choose to not take the vaccine I would have no problem with you either. I'm 28, do I want to take the vaccine? Not particularly, will I take it if it gets me back to a decent life? Absolutely.

I do not agree with the forcing of the vaccine onto people via vaccine passports and this type of thing that is flying around. Surely there is a trade off to be made, if we have vaccinated the most vulnerable third of the population in Northern Ireland....isn't that what the aim was all along?

Will you wait till your children are old enough to make up their own decisions on the vaccines they should take at an early age?

You know that is not the same thing MTR2. It's an emotional viewpoint (and theoretical at this stage....!) so I can't give you an answer.

I'm not anti vaccination, I will take it surely. But I do not believe we should be allowed to force it onto others. It's not something I'll go to the grave arguing, but I don't feel we need to do this for something that statistically....you'll be be grand (if not 50+).

I realise that will upset those in the 50+ age bracket, but it's kind of a similar thing to hear if you are under and you know you'll be fine without a vaccination. We have locked down and put our lives on hold for whatever time it's been now to protect the vulnerable (and the NHS)....so now they are largely all sorted. Can we not go through the rest of the population who wants it....those that don't ?

You can't send them to the Gulags like Armaghniac proposes, that type of thinking can not and will not thankfully be taken seriously but are we suggesting we treat people who don't get vaccinated (for whatever reason) as outcasts? I mean that is ridiculous thinking, they might never get it in their lives anyway...

You are a reasonable poster GOTB - perhaps you will answer.

Knowing that the uptake of the vaccination is key in getting lockdowns removed - if you give people the option (and support their right) to refuse the vaccine with no repercussions what is your alternative for us to get out of this shit show?

I think we are looking at something akin to Matt Hancocks recent quip about it being something similar to the winter flu we'll have to deal with going forward.

Obviously I don't have all the answers, I don't think anyone does but it's an ever changing picture I suppose too.

I am going to take the vaccine, I would encourage others to take the vaccine, I would hope others in time will ease their fears on the vaccine and join in. It would be great. But right now, people are angry, they want to bite back against the Govt, maybe this type of thing is their way of doing so?

But we can't make people take it lads. You know that yourself. It's like the talk at the start of this thread about closing the airports....should it be done? Probably....Will it be done, no. As trailer said, education should be a big factor here - maybe in time to come things will ease their thoughts but you simply cannot make people take something they don't want to. It's not even a go. We do not live in that type of world, especially when people know they (majorly) will be ok from Covid (again, under 50 ish).

Addressing what the alternative point is, in the North we are not far off 500k of a 1.8mil population vaccinated and that is the 500k of the most needing and vulnerable. I don't think we need an alternative? Is this not really good news? We are going the right way. What is herd immunity, 70%? Shouldn't we get that without the need for "force"? Let the people come round in time, people are afraid - forcing the vaccine on them will not help that, nor will exiling them from life - the argument could be made legally, well we aren't going to be effected by Covid (statistically), why should we take the vaccine? Who wants to preside over that mess?

Personally I am as upbeat as I've been in a number of months regarding the situation, again, I'm thinking locally here really, foreign holidays I've accepted are out for this next year or so....maybe towards the end of the year possibly if all goes well. I think we are well on the way lads, some people just need more time to get used to the reality of the situation.

Fair points made in a reasoned way GOTB.

However, we do know that if 'x' % of the population dont get the vaccine then we wont be opened up and we face further lockdowns.

If (for example) 60% take it and the other 40% dont then the likelihood we face is more rolling lockdowns - is that the way you want to go forward - because like it or lump it that is what will happen.

So should we suffer because some people refuse the vaccine (for no apparent reason other than the 'It wont impact me' or 'Karen from Facebook said so')

Angelo

Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 23, 2021, 04:05:19 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 23, 2021, 03:15:24 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 23, 2021, 01:56:55 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 23, 2021, 01:33:48 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 23, 2021, 01:31:33 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 23, 2021, 01:22:22 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 23, 2021, 01:16:45 PM
To the people who are having doubts about the vaccine - or just downright refusing it.

You do know that if not enough people get it then the chances of it mutating into something else (and causing many many more lockdowns and deaths) is much higher - thats the way virus' work.

So if we just settle for some of the population getting vaccinated what is your solution to eradicate or reduce this virus?

Will you be content with more lockdowns when the time comes and it mutates?

I am just trying to see some logical rationale here and what your alternatives are.

Your fundamental point is incorrect.

The only verifiable upside of a vaccine is that it reduces severity of the virus. It does not reduce people cathcing it or transmitting it that has been proven yet. It does not stop the vaccine from mutating that been proven yet.

The whole premise of your argument is flawed.

For the likes of me, someone fit and healthy in the u40 category, there is no upside to the vaccine for me that would encourage me to take it? It's not going to save my life, all it might do is give me a rather milder dose of something that is not going to cause problems anyway. But yet there are a number of zealots here who demand people should not have free will to decide whether they want to get an injection or not and there are a lot of genuine grounds for people having reservations that people are ignoring. It's basically fascism that people are trying to force this vaccine on the general population.

I don't know if anyone will take that argument on with you Angelo. It's fair enough.

Look this is just going to be a life choice - You can't force people to have a vaccine, it's just immoral to suggest anyone take something they don't want to. That is the world, thankfully we live in.

I think we ran a poll here again recently and it was heavily in favour of those who would take the vaccine, but if you choose to not take the vaccine I would have no problem with you either. I'm 28, do I want to take the vaccine? Not particularly, will I take it if it gets me back to a decent life? Absolutely.

I do not agree with the forcing of the vaccine onto people via vaccine passports and this type of thing that is flying around. Surely there is a trade off to be made, if we have vaccinated the most vulnerable third of the population in Northern Ireland....isn't that what the aim was all along?

Will you wait till your children are old enough to make up their own decisions on the vaccines they should take at an early age?

You know that is not the same thing MTR2. It's an emotional viewpoint (and theoretical at this stage....!) so I can't give you an answer.

I'm not anti vaccination, I will take it surely. But I do not believe we should be allowed to force it onto others. It's not something I'll go to the grave arguing, but I don't feel we need to do this for something that statistically....you'll be be grand (if not 50+).

I realise that will upset those in the 50+ age bracket, but it's kind of a similar thing to hear if you are under and you know you'll be fine without a vaccination. We have locked down and put our lives on hold for whatever time it's been now to protect the vulnerable (and the NHS)....so now they are largely all sorted. Can we not go through the rest of the population who wants it....those that don't ?

You can't send them to the Gulags like Armaghniac proposes, that type of thinking can not and will not thankfully be taken seriously but are we suggesting we treat people who don't get vaccinated (for whatever reason) as outcasts? I mean that is ridiculous thinking, they might never get it in their lives anyway...

You are a reasonable poster GOTB - perhaps you will answer.

Knowing that the uptake of the vaccination is key in getting lockdowns removed - if you give people the option (and support their right) to refuse the vaccine with no repercussions what is your alternative for us to get out of this shit show?

I think we are looking at something akin to Matt Hancocks recent quip about it being something similar to the winter flu we'll have to deal with going forward.

Obviously I don't have all the answers, I don't think anyone does but it's an ever changing picture I suppose too.

I am going to take the vaccine, I would encourage others to take the vaccine, I would hope others in time will ease their fears on the vaccine and join in. It would be great. But right now, people are angry, they want to bite back against the Govt, maybe this type of thing is their way of doing so?

But we can't make people take it lads. You know that yourself. It's like the talk at the start of this thread about closing the airports....should it be done? Probably....Will it be done, no. As trailer said, education should be a big factor here - maybe in time to come things will ease their thoughts but you simply cannot make people take something they don't want to. It's not even a go. We do not live in that type of world, especially when people know they (majorly) will be ok from Covid (again, under 50 ish).

Addressing what the alternative point is, in the North we are not far off 500k of a 1.8mil population vaccinated and that is the 500k of the most needing and vulnerable. I don't think we need an alternative? Is this not really good news? We are going the right way. What is herd immunity, 70%? Shouldn't we get that without the need for "force"? Let the people come round in time, people are afraid - forcing the vaccine on them will not help that, nor will exiling them from life - the argument could be made legally, well we aren't going to be effected by Covid (statistically), why should we take the vaccine? Who wants to preside over that mess?

Personally I am as upbeat as I've been in a number of months regarding the situation, again, I'm thinking locally here really, foreign holidays I've accepted are out for this next year or so....maybe towards the end of the year possibly if all goes well. I think we are well on the way lads, some people just need more time to get used to the reality of the situation.

A very, very sensible post but sadly the people you are dealing with are not sensible posters.

They will demand that people have an injection or are ostracised from society for not having an injection that will have a minimum upside.

We've had Lenny and Dublin7 among other consistently repeating lies that the vaccines tops transmission and stops infection. There is nothing there to suggest this is true, all the vaccine does is reduce the severity of the symptoms of Covid which has a big upside for at risk categories but a minimal one for those who are not at risk.

Those who benefit from the upsides should take it or be encouraged to take it and those who don't should be allowed make their own choices.



GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

Louther

Quote from: Angelo on February 23, 2021, 04:02:58 PM
Quote from: Louther on February 23, 2021, 02:18:31 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 23, 2021, 01:53:22 PM
Quote from: Louther on February 23, 2021, 01:45:20 PM
Some people making decision that they fit and healthy, which is what they are now, today.

In real time, that could change tomorrow for any number of reasons and they could land in a vulnerable person category. I'd like to give myself a chance if that were to happen and already have a vaccine in place for myself.

You can't force people to take one but you'd like to think they make informed decisions rather than working off hearsay.

Same people make a similar decision each winter about the flu jab. The elderly get it. Those with underlying health conditions get it. People who are susceptible to heavy flus get it. Most of us don't bother as we either haven't had a proper flu, or have had a proper flu so rarely, that the benefits to accrued are minimal.

As a species we are innately good at measuring risk.

——

Before some gobshite rounds on me for comparing flu with Covid, I am not. I am comparing the thought processes of people who seek inoculations.

I can see the reasoning behind your point but the fact you've to add a disclaimer to the post about not comparing it to the flu says a lot about the thought process out there.

People do still think of it "as just a bad flu" - commonly mentioned from early on. That sentiment alone should resonate a lot to people. A bad flu isn't good at all and most people have never truly had it, myself included but have seen people with it and it's not easy. In a Flu season we rarely see it in scale we have with covid - January been a real eye opener for me as to how quickly it caught hold from what was a limited window to spread in December. The age profile of those admitted to ICU wasn't high.

Also worth looking at impact of long covid and the future impacts it will have. Re-infection as well another major unknown at this stage.

The argument of the vaccine affects are one thing but so too are the impact of the above regardless of now mild the virus impacted someone in the present time.

Lot of unknowns still in play.

A "bad flu" season in 17/18 saw more deaths in the month of January 2018 than we have had in any month since Covid came on this island.

I think you play down the seriousness of a bad flu.

Firstly, you never read what I said. Just seen the words flu and couldn't wait to jump in again with January 2018.

An you are wrong as has been pointed out to you several times. The bad flu season in January 2018 didn't kill more people than any month on this island. You keep quoting one number for NI and that's all you got.

Taylor

Confirmation that Level 5 restrictions to remain in place until April 5th.

Interesting to se what the North do.

How will it work with the majority of the North vaccinated and small minority in South vaccinated.

Shut the border?  :o

lenny

Quote from: Angelo on February 23, 2021, 04:10:18 PM
The problem is people like Lenny, who don't know their arse from their elbow, spreading lies about what this vaccine achieves.

There is no proof to date that this vaccine stops infection and stops transmission. The upside is that the vaccines at best reduces the chance of you getting a severe dose of the illness or dying. So posters who are pedaling out this myth really need to be called out.

The bottom line is that if you are u40 and fit and healthy then this virus is not a threat to you, or a minimal one - the data shows this true.

So the only upside for a person like me, it will give me a milder form of infection. I'd have concerns about how rushed through the whole vaccine process is, vaccinate the at risk categories and whoever else feels free to want to get one and let's get on with things.

Normally don't reply to this dickhead.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-21/pfizer-biontech-shot-stops-covid-s-spread-israeli-study-shows



johnnycool

Quote from: Taylor on February 23, 2021, 04:48:57 PM
Confirmation that Level 5 restrictions to remain in place until April 5th.

Interesting to se what the North do.

How will it work with the majority of the North vaccinated and small minority in South vaccinated.

Shut the border?  :o

I must have missed that, where it this place?

armaghniac

Quote from: Angelo on February 23, 2021, 04:18:29 PM
We've had Lenny and Dublin7 among other consistently repeating lies that the vaccines tops transmission and stops infection. There is nothing there to suggest this is true, all the vaccine does is reduce the severity of the symptoms of Covid which has a big upside for at risk categories but a minimal one for those who are not at risk.

Those who benefit from the upsides should take it or be encouraged to take it and those who don't should be allowed make their own choices.

"Stop" requires only one counter example. However, there is increasing evidence that the vaccine greatly reduces transmission
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-21/pfizer-biontech-shot-stops-covid-s-spread-israeli-study-shows

Very few things in the world are absolute, seat belts do not stop you being killed in cars, smoking may not shorten your life. But in many things we operate with substantial improvement.

I'll bet you 20 Shekels that in future Israel will not allow people go there unless they have been vaccinated and we should not allow people into this country either.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Taylor

Quote from: johnnycool on February 23, 2021, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 23, 2021, 04:48:57 PM
Confirmation that Level 5 restrictions to remain in place until April 5th.

Interesting to se what the North do.

How will it work with the majority of the North vaccinated and small minority in South vaccinated.

Shut the border?  :o

I must have missed that, where it this place?

The North of this island - the majority will be vaccinated long before the South of the island.

Then what?

Milltown Row2

Quote from: Angelo on February 23, 2021, 04:10:18 PM
The problem is people like Lenny, who don't know their arse from their elbow, spreading lies about what this vaccine achieves.

There is no proof to date that this vaccine stops infection and stops transmission. The upside is that the vaccines at best reduces the chance of you getting a severe dose of the illness or dying. So posters who are pedaling out this myth really need to be called out.

The bottom line is that if you are u40 and fit and healthy then this virus is not a threat to you, or a minimal one - the data shows this true.

So the only upside for a person like me, it will give me a milder form of infection. I'd have concerns about how rushed through the whole vaccine process is, vaccinate the at risk categories and whoever else feels free to want to get one and let's get on with things.

Don't know their arse from their elbow! That's you, you say you don't know what the vaccine will do as they haven't trialled it long enough to see it's results. But want the vulnerable to get it so you can crack on!

You're so thoughtful
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Eamonnca1

Quote from: Angelo on February 23, 2021, 04:10:18 PM
The problem is people like Lenny, who don't know their arse from their elbow, spreading lies about what this vaccine achieves.

There is no proof to date that this vaccine stops infection and stops transmission. The upside is that the vaccines at best reduces the chance of you getting a severe dose of the illness or dying. So posters who are pedaling out this myth really need to be called out.

The bottom line is that if you are u40 and fit and healthy then this virus is not a threat to you, or a minimal one - the data shows this true.

So the only upside for a person like me, it will give me a milder form of infection. I'd have concerns about how rushed through the whole vaccine process is, vaccinate the at risk categories and whoever else feels free to want to get one and let's get on with things.

I stopped reading at this point. Vaccines do not stop infections, they strengthen the immune system so they can fight infections.

Angelo

Quote from: lenny on February 23, 2021, 04:58:34 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 23, 2021, 04:10:18 PM
The problem is people like Lenny, who don't know their arse from their elbow, spreading lies about what this vaccine achieves.

There is no proof to date that this vaccine stops infection and stops transmission. The upside is that the vaccines at best reduces the chance of you getting a severe dose of the illness or dying. So posters who are pedaling out this myth really need to be called out.

The bottom line is that if you are u40 and fit and healthy then this virus is not a threat to you, or a minimal one - the data shows this true.

So the only upside for a person like me, it will give me a milder form of infection. I'd have concerns about how rushed through the whole vaccine process is, vaccinate the at risk categories and whoever else feels free to want to get one and let's get on with things.

Normally don't reply to this dickhead.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-21/pfizer-biontech-shot-stops-covid-s-spread-israeli-study-shows

You normally don't reply because you are full of shit and not intelligent enough to make a coherent point.

You've posted a link that does not back up any assertion you made.

Another Lenny own goal.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

Angelo

Quote from: armaghniac on February 23, 2021, 05:10:03 PM
Quote from: Angelo on February 23, 2021, 04:18:29 PM
We've had Lenny and Dublin7 among other consistently repeating lies that the vaccines tops transmission and stops infection. There is nothing there to suggest this is true, all the vaccine does is reduce the severity of the symptoms of Covid which has a big upside for at risk categories but a minimal one for those who are not at risk.

Those who benefit from the upsides should take it or be encouraged to take it and those who don't should be allowed make their own choices.

"Stop" requires only one counter example. However, there is increasing evidence that the vaccine greatly reduces transmission
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-21/pfizer-biontech-shot-stops-covid-s-spread-israeli-study-shows

Very few things in the world are absolute, seat belts do not stop you being killed in cars, smoking may not shorten your life. But in many things we operate with substantial improvement.

I'll bet you 20 Shekels that in future Israel will not allow people go there unless they have been vaccinated and we should not allow people into this country either.

Another fool posting an article he obviously didn't read.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

JoG2

Most of the major airlines are testing the vaccine passport app. This looks very likely for short and longterm flights. The 70% will be well surpassed.

As other have mentioned on here, you need to be vaccinated to visit certain countries as is. I wouldn't go down the line of forcing anyone right enough atm. This could change if uptake is low.

I was actually surprised at the 70% uptake on care home employees. Just shows the power of social media. Health Centres are upwards of 99%.

Good man Fear, glad to hear it! Get the jag done and keep Derry safe. Just remember how good the stout is in Paedars!

bannside

It's good alright! You could lose a full day in that place very easily.