Taoiseach Brian Cowen has paid tribute to Bertie Ahern, who announced last night that he would not be contesting the next General Election.
Mr Cowen said the announcement marked the end of an era, and he described his predecessor as the consummate politician of his generation.
He said he had always admired Mr Ahern not only for his leadership skills, his great commitment and his outstanding political instincts, but also for his courtesy and kindness to colleagues.
Bertie Ahern announced his intention not to seek re-election to the Dáil during a Fianna Fáil party meeting in Dublin last night.
Mr Ahern told the O'Donovan Rossa Fianna Fáil Cumman that he was proud of what he had achieved in politics.
He said as far back as 2002 he had made it clear he would stand down when he was 60.
With a spring election now due and his birthday in September, he was confirming he would not be a candidate in that election.
On the current crisis, he said Ireland was not, in his words, 'banjaxed' or 'an economic corpse'.
'Ireland is a country of real achievement and yes of real and pressing problems. The truth is that our country will recover. We will regain our stride and we will succeed in holding on to many of the gains we have made together. '
Political career
Prior to becoming Taoiseach in 1997, Bertie Ahern held most of the important cabinet portfolios including Finance, Labour and Industry and Commerce.
His career in politics began at 17 years of age when he joined Fianna Fáil.
He became a TD in 1977 and began to progress up the party hierarchy.
In 1987 he was made Minister for Labour. He later spent periods as Minister for Industry and Commerce and Minister for Finance.
Following the collapse of the Fianna Fáil / Labour Government in 1994, Mr Ahern was elected leader of his party and three years later, he led Fianna Fáil into coalition with the Progressive Democrats.
During his time as Taoiseach he has won acclaim for the role he played in the peace process - helping to negotiate the Good Friday Agreement in 1998.
However, his spell in office was plagued by questions about his financial affairs in the 1990s.
Good riddance to him and his cronies, the most devious f**ker this country has ever seen, he should be locked up in Mountjoy. Haughey was right about him, I'm sure his nice hefty pension(s) will ease his pain
10 years too late unfortunately for the rest of us. I do take pleasure in knowing that the only legacy he leaves is that of a self serving greedy little p***k that ruined the country for a generation. Contrast this with his desire to build a massive sports stadium to leave a positive legacy. I'd say he is not a happy man with the way that turned out for him
Not a Ahern fan for aforementioned reasons, but had John Bruton continued in office instead of Ahern the peace process might never have taken off. A self serving cnut? Probably, but IMO he deserves the legacy of having facilitated the entry of militant Republicanism to the democratic process and his role in doing so was crucial
Quote from: stephenite on December 31, 2010, 12:24:57 PM
Not a Ahern fan for aforementioned reasons, but had John Bruton continued in office instead of Ahern the peace process might never have taken off. A self serving cnut? Probably, but IMO he deserves the legacy of having facilitated the entry of militant Republicanism to the democratic process and his role in doing so was crucial
+1
Bruton was an awful bollocks in relations regarding the north.
Have to second Ziggy there. How anyone can regard John Bruton as being a positive influence in the six counties I will never know.
Quote from: ziggysego on December 31, 2010, 02:25:35 PM
Quote from: stephenite on December 31, 2010, 12:24:57 PM
Not a Ahern fan for aforementioned reasons, but had John Bruton continued in office instead of Ahern the peace process might never have taken off. A self serving cnut? Probably, but IMO he deserves the legacy of having facilitated the entry of militant Republicanism to the democratic process and his role in doing so was crucial
+1
Bruton was an awful bollocks in relations regarding the north.
+2.
Still Ahern leaves an awful legacy behind in respect of his stewardship of the Country from Good Friday 1998 till he was forced out of office in disgrace in 2008.
Him Harney and Thickcunt McCreevy did some damage to us all. :'( :'( :'(
Thon boy running for Presidency would be a sick joke.
He will have a bit more time for betting on the harses now.
Its amazing how people here will actually pick out the good that Ahern did. Bruton may have been useless, but at least he was honest. Lads,Ahern deeds has left the country needing a bailout of probably 150 billion. He and his cronies has fucked up this country for us and our children. They say Hitler was a great family man but if you ask me he was a mass murderer first and foremost.
He was/is a genius without a doubt.
Unfortunately, for all of us, events in the latter years of his term as Taoiseach have overshadowed his considerable achievements. His genius is flawed but that wasn't apparent when Ian Paisley exaggerated the warmth of his handshake when the pair met at the site of the Battle of The Boyne. To gain Big Ian's trust and at the same time to bring Gerry and Marty in from the cold was no mean feat. For bringing the Peace Process talks to a meaningful conclusion, Ahern deserves great credit.
For me, the Boyne handshake from Paisley was the high water mark of his political career.
But it was a case of downhill all the way after that.
I know a number of the so-called Drumcondra Mafia and I'm quite satisfied that no one in his inner circle of friends knew the full extent of his financial irregularities. It was a terrible letdown for all who knew him to hear him assure the Mahon Tribunal that he had hit it lucky with the horses. It was well-known that he wasn't a serious student of form and only placed a bet occasionally—like when in company at a race meeting or when he was given a tip by a friend. It was
I don't know what the Tribunal will eventually come out with but I bet it won't reveal the real Bertie. Nobody will ever get to know what makes the man tick.
Bertie Ahern is a True Enemy of Ireland.
Bertie Ahern is, was and always will be a C.U.N.T. thats the start and finish of it, argument over.
What a chump he was.
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Quote from: Pangurban on December 31, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Bertie was well shielded by elements of the press for a long time.
Quote from: Pangurban on December 31, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Which people are you referring to?
Quote from: Pangurban on December 31, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Perhaps, but he told those who were critical of both him and where he was taking the state at the height of the 'Tiger' that they could go hang themselves.
Quote from: stephenite on December 31, 2010, 12:24:57 PM
Not a Ahern fan for aforementioned reasons, but had John Bruton continued in office instead of Ahern the peace process might never have taken off. A self serving cnut? Probably, but IMO he deserves the legacy of having facilitated the entry of militant Republicanism to the democratic process and his role in doing so was crucial
He deserves the legacy of being the biggest thief this country has ever known. Any other country and he'd never leave a jail-cell. I hope he rots in hell.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on December 31, 2010, 07:10:32 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on December 31, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Which people are you referring to?
Most of the so called political pundits on this board for a start.
Quote from: thebigfella on December 31, 2010, 08:07:11 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on December 31, 2010, 07:10:32 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on December 31, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Which people are you referring to?
Most of the so called political pundits on this board for a start.
Very nice of you to answer a question not addressed to you, but while your at it can you name and shame these people.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on December 31, 2010, 08:09:56 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on December 31, 2010, 08:07:11 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on December 31, 2010, 07:10:32 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on December 31, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Which people are you referring to?
Most of the so called political pundits on this board for a start.
Very nice of you to answer a question not addressed to you, but while your at it can you name and shame these people.
There was quite a few of us critical of him for a very long time. But I will agree that there was an incredible amount of people who seemed to ignore his obvious accounting issues ::) amongs other things. I had a friend from Dublin (but to be honest they could have been from anywhere, but especially the Dublin & its commuter belt) who told me before the last election that he would take his chances with a corrupt Fianna Fail that he knew wouldn't rock the boat rather than an honest Fine Gael or Labour who might.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 31, 2010, 04:24:17 PM
Bertie Ahern is a True Enemy of Ireland.
Bertie Ahern is, was and always will be a C.U.N.T. thats the start and finish of it, argument over.
what a great start to 2011 teflon fecks off and i finally agree with MGHU. ;)
Quote from: INDIANA on December 31, 2010, 07:28:12 PM
Quote from: stephenite on December 31, 2010, 12:24:57 PM
Not a Ahern fan for aforementioned reasons, but had John Bruton continued in office instead of Ahern the peace process might never have taken off. A self serving cnut? Probably, but IMO he deserves the legacy of having facilitated the entry of militant Republicanism to the democratic process and his role in doing so was crucial
He deserves the legacy of being the biggest thief this country has ever known. Any other country and he'd never leave a jail-cell. I hope he rots in hell.
You capture my thoughts exactly!
Quote from: Lar Naparka on December 31, 2010, 04:02:06 PM
He was/is a genius without a doubt.I know a number of the so-called Drumcondra Mafia and I'm quite satisfied that no one in his inner circle of friends knew the full extent of his financial irregularities. It was a terrible letdown for all who knew him to hear him assure the Mahon Tribunal that he had hit it lucky with the horses.
Which members of the mafia do you know? I only ask because afaik most of the inner circle were part of the fabricated dig-out stories etc. For all that, the few quid here and there was the least of his wrongdoings, I don't believe he profited to the extent that the people he helped out did, i'm talking about the developers and other who had tax laws amended in their favour.
He had some qualities, but a genius he was not and I have no idea why anyone would or could describe him as such.
Quote from: Pangurban on December 31, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Not from me, I remember being accused of being blinded by my disgust of the man back 3 or 4 years ago, that I had some decent points to make, but that everthing I wrote had to be looked at in that context (I think it was bellequa or someone who pointed that out to me).
I don't even blame Ahern tbh, he just gave people what they wanted, he didn't have the intellect to understand how unsustainable that was. Other people should have been shouting stop.
That said, he was very good at what he did in terms of coming across as personable and achieving electoral success, the deal with the greens being his most impressive achievement imo.
Re the north, I think it was going to happen regardless of him, there was no appetite for a continuation on any side and the wheels were long in motion before he was in power.
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 01, 2011, 01:41:32 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on December 31, 2010, 04:02:06 PM
He was/is a genius without a doubt.I know a number of the so-called Drumcondra Mafia and I'm quite satisfied that no one in his inner circle of friends knew the full extent of his financial irregularities. It was a terrible letdown for all who knew him to hear him assure the Mahon Tribunal that he had hit it lucky with the horses.
Which members of the mafia do you know? I only ask because afaik most of the inner circle were part of the fabricated dig-out stories etc. For all that, the few quid here and there was the least of his wrongdoings, I don't believe he profited to the extent that the people he helped out did, i'm talking about the developers and other who had tax laws amended in their favour.
He had some qualities, but a genius he was not and I have no idea why anyone would or could describe him as such.
Quote from: Pangurban on December 31, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Not from me, I remember being accused of being blinded by my disgust of the man back 3 or 4 years ago, that I had some decent points to make, but that everthing I wrote had to be looked at in that context (I think it was bellequa or someone who pointed that out to me).
I don't even blame Ahern tbh, he just gave people what they wanted, he didn't have the intellect to understand how unsustainable that was. Other people should have been shouting stop.
That said, he was very good at what he did in terms of coming across as personable and achieving electoral success, the deal with the greens being his most impressive achievement imo.
Re the north, I think it was going to happen regardless of him, there was no appetite for a continuation on any side and the wheels were long in motion before he was in power.
Bogball I lived in Drumcondra for 25 years All those stories about the Drumcondra Mafia are true. Dont start talking about subjects you havent the foggiest of what you are talking about. Let me educate you.
The Mafia:
-Des Richardson
-Chris Wall
-Joe Burke
-Paul Kiely
-Tony Kett
-Des Peelo
-James Nugent
You add Charlie Chawke, Padraig O Connor etc to that list as non executive directors per say. All of the above were elected to prime directoral positions in Ireland semi-States under Ahern's watch as compensation for helping him get re-elected. Either canvassing or financially. I've seen the clandestine meetings in Fagans, the Goose and the Beaumont House as many have. I doubt you'd know where they are on the map.
You think he added the above to the boards of semi states for old times sake. You just keep believing that. The rest of us know the truth. The scale of corruption in this particular case will never come to light because Ahern will always have the trade unions, the quangos, the semi states, senators etc in his back pocket. Anyone that could expose him wont. Because he made sure of it.
He is a multi milllionaire and make no mistake about it. Anyone who believes otherwise is a gobshite. He lives in a mansion, has a state car, 2 bodyguards and thousands of irish punts(lets not forget) that he hides under floorboards. It makes me sick reading posts ,iek the above still making excuses for a guy who lied, cheated and stole from the Irish people and the fact that people still excuse it.
>:(
I could write a post 10 pages long about the Mafia and Ahern as could many residents of Drumcondra. It was never a secret how it worked. The only surprise is some clowns still believe in Bertie. Its posts like the above that make me realise maybe we deserve everything we got.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 11:02:11 AM. Its posts like the above that make me realise maybe we deserve everything we got.
I think you should read my post again too, there wasn't a lot there that disagreed with anything you say.
When I said he didn't make the same sort of money that the people he facilitated did? I stand by that, if he has money it's offshore and not easily accessible for him, thus pointless unless he moves out of ireland. Back in the 70's the ansbacher scheme was set up to enable people to access their offshore monies, but that ship has sailed and it's more difficult nowadays.
You're talking about the paltry few quid for appointments to quangos, the expenses, the parking in the dail, the free aer lingus flights for life etc, I'm referring to the billions made by the developers through rezoning, the billions saved through the retention of ridiculous tax incentives, the millions saved through changes in tax law to facilitate one person.
As for the mansion he lives in, has he moved out of Beresford?
By the way, I don't think that Peelo or O'Connor were fully paid up members and there's a few who've been left out: Celia, Gerry Brennan, Jerry Beades, Cyprian are prominent ommissons.
Has he moved out of Beresford? Why would he- its his bloody house. Electric Fences, squad car outside etc- the usual ensemble that represents Irelands destitute public servants. Not to mention all the other properties that nobody talks about. (why)
Celia Ahern and Co were absolute small timers. The Mafia hated Celia Ahern and thats a fact.
Peelo was Bertie's Accountant ;D- not a paid up member ;D. He represented both Ahern and Haughey at the bloody Tribunals.
You dont seem to see the paltry appointments to the semi states was the issue. When you talk about the scale of corruption and the millions he made. This is how he did it. By appointing all his mates to the boards he controlled all of them. This allowed him to rezone sites and lands that many of these Semi States owned.
By appointing his trusted lieutenants to the most powerful companies in Ireland. This is how he got to be best mates with all the Developers. He came into contact with all of them. One of the Mafia would make sure he was introduced to one of them. Bertie would look after things. And they looked after him financially for doing so. Sean Dunne, Ronan etc are all mates of his.
Bertie is a multi milionaire. Recently in a raffle in the Beaumont House about 6 months ago there was a 10k prize. Guess who won first prize. Yep you got it Bertie.
There is no justice in the world.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 11:02:11 AM
You add Charlie Chawke, Padraig O Connor etc to that list as non executive directors per say.
What does "per say" mean?
Quote from: Hardy on January 01, 2011, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 11:02:11 AM
You add Charlie Chawke, Padraig O Connor etc to that list as non executive directors per say.
What does "per say" mean?
They would have been well known "donors" of Bertie but wouldn't be fully fledged members of the Mafia. Mind you the Mafia was so big at the end it was hard to tell the difference.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 11:53:41 AMPeelo was Bertie's Accountant ;D- not a paid up member ;D. He represented both Ahern and Haughey at the bloody Tribunals.
You dont seem to see the paltry appointments to the semi states was the issue. When you talk about the scale of corruption and the millions he made. This is how he did it. By appointing all his mates to the boards he controlled all of them. This allowed him to rezone sites and lands that many of these Semi States owned.
By appointing his trusted lieutenants to the most powerful companies in Ireland. This is how he got to be best mates with all the Developers. He came into contact with all of them. One of the Mafia would make sure he was introduced to one of them. Bertie would look after things. And they looked after him financially for doing so. Sean Dunne, Ronan etc are all mates of his.
Bertie is a multi milionaire. Recently in a raffle in the Beaumont House about 6 months ago there was a 10k prize. Guess who won first prize. Yep you got it Bertie.
There is no justice in the world.
beresford is a 4 bed modern detached house off griffith avenue, hardly a mansion.
Not that it really matters, but just because Peelo represented Ahern doesn't mean that he was in the mafia, Peelo is one of very few forensic accountants in this country (before the big 4 started attempting to get in on the market a few years ago - and there's no way they'd have touched ahern once they heard his explanations) he was always going to be one of the few people capable of constructing some sort of defence for both Ahern and Haughey.
Given Bertie's lack of tax returns prior to 2007, he clearly did not retain any accountant personally.
I understand your point about his lieutenants on semi states, but i don't agree that they had any real control. Take Chris Wall at Aer Lingus or Joe Burke at the Dublin Port, what influence did those guys really have?
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 11:53:41 AM
Has he moved out of Beresford? Why would he- its his bloody house. Electric Fences, squad car outside etc- the usual ensemble that represents Irelands destitute public servants. Not to mention all the other properties that nobody talks about. (why)
Now that would be interesting, do share.
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 01, 2011, 12:19:23 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 11:53:41 AMPeelo was Bertie's Accountant ;D- not a paid up member ;D. He represented both Ahern and Haughey at the bloody Tribunals.
You dont seem to see the paltry appointments to the semi states was the issue. When you talk about the scale of corruption and the millions he made. This is how he did it. By appointing all his mates to the boards he controlled all of them. This allowed him to rezone sites and lands that many of these Semi States owned.
By appointing his trusted lieutenants to the most powerful companies in Ireland. This is how he got to be best mates with all the Developers. He came into contact with all of them. One of the Mafia would make sure he was introduced to one of them. Bertie would look after things. And they looked after him financially for doing so. Sean Dunne, Ronan etc are all mates of his.
Bertie is a multi milionaire. Recently in a raffle in the Beaumont House about 6 months ago there was a 10k prize. Guess who won first prize. Yep you got it Bertie.
There is no justice in the world.
beresford is a 4 bed modern detached house off griffith avenue, hardly a mansion.
Not that it really matters, but just because Peelo represented Ahern doesn't mean that he was in the mafia, Peelo is one of very few forensic accountants in this country (before the big 4 started attempting to get in on the market a few years ago - and there's no way they'd have touched ahern once they heard his explanations) he was always going to be one of the few people capable of constructing some sort of defence for both Ahern and Haughey.
Given Bertie's lack of tax returns prior to 2007, he clearly did not retain any accountant personally.
I understand your point about his lieutenants on semi states, but i don't agree that they had any real control. Take Chris Wall at Aer Lingus or Joe Burke at the Dublin Port, what influence did those guys really have?
Bertie lives in a de-thatched 6 bed house. Beresford has a section called millionaire row- locally called. He lives there. Do you want to take a picture of it? :D.
You dont need tax returns when you're Taoiseach. How naive are you? I mean seriously you're using the lack of a tax return as evidence of Bertie being financially compliant? This is the man who spent a decade passing himself off as a qualified accountant. Peelo would do whatever Bertie wanted him to do. As I said peelo was appointed to plenty of boards because of it. The CRC and others to name just one.
Chris Wall was a director at Aer Lingus for 11 years. Nothing happened on that board that wasnt reported back to Bertie. To indicate Wall's power- he was the only director to survive the privatisation clearout in 2006. He only left in 2008 of his own volition. Wall was even a senator - again appointed by Ahern. Again Ahern controlled Aer Lingus through him. Just ask people if you dont believe me.
Burke was chairman of Dublin Port - how is that not influential? Lets not forget he only left in 2009.
Ironic thats its taken so long for people to start writing books on this. It went on for 20 years virtually un-noticed. Ross has a good book on it at the moment called Wasters- not specifically about Bertie but it shows how the system works.
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 01, 2011, 12:21:29 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 11:53:41 AM
Has he moved out of Beresford? Why would he- its his bloody house. Electric Fences, squad car outside etc- the usual ensemble that represents Irelands destitute public servants. Not to mention all the other properties that nobody talks about. (why)
Now that would be interesting, do share.
The story is that he has significant overseas property interests. Nobody has proven it but to be honest nobody has really looked. Simply because its old news now with the recession, the IMF etc.
This is a guy who didnt have a bank account. Sorry- Irish bank account!
God knows what he's salted away.
He was Bertie the loveable rogue when youse were buying overseas property and new cars every other year. Did anyone tell the Bank Manager they didn't want an extension on their credit limit or a bigger mortgage as they'd be in diffs if their circumstances changed?! Funny how the worm turns.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 12:08:30 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 01, 2011, 12:02:03 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 11:02:11 AM
You add Charlie Chawke, Padraig O Connor etc to that list as non executive directors per say.
What does "per say" mean?
They would have been well known "donors" of Bertie but wouldn't be fully fledged members of the Mafia. Mind you the Mafia was so big at the end it was hard to tell the difference.
I know all that. I just wanted to know what "per say" means.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 12:32:24 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 01, 2011, 12:19:23 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 11:53:41 AMPeelo was Bertie's Accountant ;D- not a paid up member ;D. He represented both Ahern and Haughey at the bloody Tribunals.
You dont seem to see the paltry appointments to the semi states was the issue. When you talk about the scale of corruption and the millions he made. This is how he did it. By appointing all his mates to the boards he controlled all of them. This allowed him to rezone sites and lands that many of these Semi States owned.
By appointing his trusted lieutenants to the most powerful companies in Ireland. This is how he got to be best mates with all the Developers. He came into contact with all of them. One of the Mafia would make sure he was introduced to one of them. Bertie would look after things. And they looked after him financially for doing so. Sean Dunne, Ronan etc are all mates of his.
Bertie is a multi milionaire. Recently in a raffle in the Beaumont House about 6 months ago there was a 10k prize. Guess who won first prize. Yep you got it Bertie.
There is no justice in the world.
beresford is a 4 bed modern detached house off griffith avenue, hardly a mansion.
Not that it really matters, but just because Peelo represented Ahern doesn't mean that he was in the mafia, Peelo is one of very few forensic accountants in this country (before the big 4 started attempting to get in on the market a few years ago - and there's no way they'd have touched ahern once they heard his explanations) he was always going to be one of the few people capable of constructing some sort of defence for both Ahern and Haughey.
Given Bertie's lack of tax returns prior to 2007, he clearly did not retain any accountant personally.
I understand your point about his lieutenants on semi states, but i don't agree that they had any real control. Take Chris Wall at Aer Lingus or Joe Burke at the Dublin Port, what influence did those guys really have?
Bertie lives in a de-thatched 6 bed house. Beresford has a section called millionaire row- locally called. He lives there. Do you want to take a picture of it? :D.
You dont need tax returns when you're Taoiseach. How naive are you? I mean seriously you're using the lack of a tax return as evidence of Bertie being financially compliant? This is the man who spent a decade passing himself off as a qualified accountant. Peelo would do whatever Bertie wanted him to do. As I said peelo was appointed to plenty of boards because of it. The CRC and others to name just one.
Chris Wall was a director at Aer Lingus for 11 years. Nothing happened on that board that wasnt reported back to Bertie. To indicate Wall's power- he was the only director to survive the privatisation clearout in 2006. He only left in 2008 of his own volition. Wall was even a senator - again appointed by Ahern. Again Ahern controlled Aer Lingus through him. Just ask people if you dont believe me.
Burke was chairman of Dublin Port - how is that not influential? Lets not forget he only left in 2009.
Ironic thats its taken so long for people to start writing books on this. It went on for 20 years virtually un-noticed. Ross has a good book on it at the moment called Wasters- not specifically about Bertie but it shows how the system works.
Bertie bought the property as a 4 bedroom detached house in 1997 from Michael Wall, if he subsequently extended or renovated it to a six bedroom house, well and good, but I doubt that is the case. It was a very ordinary suburban house, gardens were measured in square footage and not acres, the house itself was less than 2000sq foot with little room to extend, if you think that's a mansion, you're too long in Dublin.
I'm not sure what exactly you're saying with regards to ahern's tax compliance, but you seem to have totally misinterpreted me again, I have never said he was or is compliant, I just said he obviously didn't have an accountant. I've said time and again that he should be treated the same as Rambo and jailed for tax evasion.
Why would the Taoiseach of the country need a spy on the board of aer lingus? He should have been privy to everything going on there regardless of who was or is on the board. It was owned by the state and is still almost 50% owned by the state. Wall obviously survived the cull as he was the taoiseach's mate – hardly a mystery. Wall was a senator for approx 1 month, that was enough to guarantee him free parking in the dail and access to the bars for life – no other discernible benefits.
Burke may have been chairman, but a man of your business experience should know how titular such a position can be.
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 01, 2011, 02:40:06 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 12:32:24 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 01, 2011, 12:19:23 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 11:53:41 AMPeelo was Bertie's Accountant ;D- not a paid up member ;D. He represented both Ahern and Haughey at the bloody Tribunals.
You dont seem to see the paltry appointments to the semi states was the issue. When you talk about the scale of corruption and the millions he made. This is how he did it. By appointing all his mates to the boards he controlled all of them. This allowed him to rezone sites and lands that many of these Semi States owned.
By appointing his trusted lieutenants to the most powerful companies in Ireland. This is how he got to be best mates with all the Developers. He came into contact with all of them. One of the Mafia would make sure he was introduced to one of them. Bertie would look after things. And they looked after him financially for doing so. Sean Dunne, Ronan etc are all mates of his.
Bertie is a multi milionaire. Recently in a raffle in the Beaumont House about 6 months ago there was a 10k prize. Guess who won first prize. Yep you got it Bertie.
There is no justice in the world.
beresford is a 4 bed modern detached house off griffith avenue, hardly a mansion.
Not that it really matters, but just because Peelo represented Ahern doesn't mean that he was in the mafia, Peelo is one of very few forensic accountants in this country (before the big 4 started attempting to get in on the market a few years ago - and there's no way they'd have touched ahern once they heard his explanations) he was always going to be one of the few people capable of constructing some sort of defence for both Ahern and Haughey.
Given Bertie's lack of tax returns prior to 2007, he clearly did not retain any accountant personally.
I understand your point about his lieutenants on semi states, but i don't agree that they had any real control. Take Chris Wall at Aer Lingus or Joe Burke at the Dublin Port, what influence did those guys really have?
Bertie lives in a de-thatched 6 bed house. Beresford has a section called millionaire row- locally called. He lives there. Do you want to take a picture of it? :D.
You dont need tax returns when you're Taoiseach. How naive are you? I mean seriously you're using the lack of a tax return as evidence of Bertie being financially compliant? This is the man who spent a decade passing himself off as a qualified accountant. Peelo would do whatever Bertie wanted him to do. As I said peelo was appointed to plenty of boards because of it. The CRC and others to name just one.
Chris Wall was a director at Aer Lingus for 11 years. Nothing happened on that board that wasnt reported back to Bertie. To indicate Wall's power- he was the only director to survive the privatisation clearout in 2006. He only left in 2008 of his own volition. Wall was even a senator - again appointed by Ahern. Again Ahern controlled Aer Lingus through him. Just ask people if you dont believe me.
Burke was chairman of Dublin Port - how is that not influential? Lets not forget he only left in 2009.
Ironic thats its taken so long for people to start writing books on this. It went on for 20 years virtually un-noticed. Ross has a good book on it at the moment called Wasters- not specifically about Bertie but it shows how the system works.
Bertie bought the property as a 4 bedroom detached house in 1997 from Michael Wall, if he subsequently extended or renovated it to a six bedroom house, well and good, but I doubt that is the case. It was a very ordinary suburban house, gardens were measured in square footage and not acres, the house itself was less than 2000sq foot with little room to extend, if you think that's a mansion, you're too long in Dublin.
I'm not sure what exactly you're saying with regards to ahern's tax compliance, but you seem to have totally misinterpreted me again, I have never said he was or is compliant, I just said he obviously didn't have an accountant. I've said time and again that he should be treated the same as Rambo and jailed for tax evasion.
Why would the Taoiseach of the country need a spy on the board of aer lingus? He should have been privy to everything going on there regardless of who was or is on the board. It was owned by the state and is still almost 50% owned by the state. Wall obviously survived the cull as he was the taoiseach's mate – hardly a mystery. Wall was a senator for approx 1 month, that was enough to guarantee him free parking in the dail and access to the bars for life – no other discernible benefits.
Burke may have been chairman, but a man of your business experience should know how titular such a position can be.
I live less then a kilometre away and I know exactly what it looks like- and what it looks like inside. And its a serious house. As the possessions inside will testify.
He does have an accountant as I explained earlier. He pretends to the public he doesnt- there is a clear distinction. You believe too much in poor Bertie the public gobshite as he likes to portray himself.
You're completely missing the point again. It was the Mafia who introduced Bertie to the developers. I cant explain it any clearer then that.
Appointing his own people to the semi states gave him control over the unions electorally and financially got him connected with major businessmen and developers. It was carefully planned and it paid off- literally.He knew exactly what he was doing.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 01, 2011, 12:32:24 PM
Ironic thats its taken so long for people to start writing books on this.
It's taken so long because of the libel laws, which favour establishment power over freedom of speech, and because the media is so very small in this country. If someone wants to get up and cause a stir, it's easy enough to isolate him or her and starve him out.
The country's rotten boys. All the next election will do is switch people in deckchairs. The system will remain the same unless we vote for politicians who want reform (and who can do sums, thus ruling out Joe Higgins and that crew). I won't be holding my breath. Too many people whom the system suits, too many people who can't see they're getting nailed by the system.
attention neighbours of bogball and indiana! keep your curtains closed :D :D these guys miss nothing
I wonder does he eat his breakfast out of the bertie bowl.
Quote from: Big Puff on January 01, 2011, 11:07:44 PM
I wonder does he eat his breakfast out of the bertie bowl.
;D ;D
by the look of him over the past while he drinks it!!
In truth, Indiana told me has the full 32 county selection of those kellogs county bowls so that he can always have the right one out depending on who is overnighting with him (i'm not sure if he collected all the tokens himself or whether the story that he lightened regulations on labelling re sodium and sugar content on breakfast cereals in exchange for the complete collection is correct). When he's on his own though, it's a Man Utd bowl.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on December 31, 2010, 08:09:56 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on December 31, 2010, 08:07:11 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on December 31, 2010, 07:10:32 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on December 31, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Which people are you referring to?
Most of the so called political pundits on this board for a start.
Very nice of you to answer a question not addressed to you, but while your at it can you name and shame these people.
Well sure you can go top of the name and shame list then ::)
Haughey had a mansion in Kinsealy, anything on Griffith Ave is nowhere near the same league.
That said, I'd say he's got millions of ill gotten gains
Quote from: thebigfella on January 02, 2011, 02:33:29 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on December 31, 2010, 08:09:56 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on December 31, 2010, 08:07:11 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on December 31, 2010, 07:10:32 PM
Quote from: Pangurban on December 31, 2010, 06:59:18 PM
There is a lot of people here who are wise after the event. The critizism was very muted when the mythical celtic tiger was roaring
Which people are you referring to?
Most of the so called political pundits on this board for a start.
Very nice of you to answer a question not addressed to you, but while your at it can you name and shame these people.
Well sure you can go top of the name and shame list then ::)
I asked the question because of idiots like you generalising about ahern. Apparently there would be no deal in the north without him - rubbish. Apparently we (or youse) were happy with him when we were off buying foreign property - out of all the people I know only 1 bought property abroad and he got badly burnt. I made my mind up about this joke called the Celtic tiger years ago when I saw estates spring up in every field in cavan town while the only new people in the town were the people building them. I have never voted ff and if you can find one post anywhere where I say something good about ahern well please post it here and expose me as a liar.
Quote from: stephenite on January 02, 2011, 05:48:47 AM
Haughey had a mansion in Kinsealy, anything on Griffith Ave is nowhere near the same league.
That said, I'd say he's got millions of ill gotten gains
True but Haughey bought the place for about 10k in 1969 as you could back then.
Apparently Bertie today reveals he should have acted sooner. I mean you couldn't make it up.
Himself and Fitzpatrick should be put in stocks in O Connell Street. But then again Bogball and his nanny state mates would probably take the hit for him. Thats Ireland for you ;D.
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 01, 2011, 01:41:32 AM
se afaik most of the inner circle were part of the fabricated dig-out stories etc. For all that, the few quid here and there was the least of his wrongdoings, I don't believe he profited to the extent that the people he helped out did, i'm talking about the developers and other who had tax laws amended in their favour.
He had some qualities, but a genius he was not and I have no idea why anyone would or could describe him as such.
Not from me, I remember being accused of being blinded by my disgust of the man back 3 or 4 years ago, that I had some decent points to make, but that everthing I wrote had to be looked at in that context (I think it was bellequa or someone who pointed that out to me).
I don't even blame Ahern tbh, he just gave people what they wanted, he didn't have the intellect to understand how unsustainable that was. Other people should have been shouting stop.
That said, he was very good at what he did in terms of coming across as personable and achieving electoral success, the deal with the greens being his most impressive achievement imo.
Re the north, I think it was going to happen regardless of him, there was no appetite for a continuation on any side and the wheels were long in motion before he was in power.
Probably know most of them. Certainly all who were associated with him up to the '97 election.
I lived off Hollybank Road in Glasnevin for several years and frequented both Kennedy's and Fagan's so I had ample opportunity to meet and mingle with Bertie and his buddies.
There were a number I didn't get on very well with and I guess the feeling was mutual. I get on very well with 4 or 5 of those closely associated with Ahern and when circumstances allow, I could meet one or other of them and stop for a chat or sit on an adjacent bar stool for a couple of pints From what those contacts tell me and from what I already knew, I'm certain that no single person knew the full extent of Bertie's off-the-ball activities. And no one ever will.
Nowadays, I don't go out of my way to seek out any of them but such meetings do happen on occasion and the subject of Bertie's latest misdemeanours may crop up in a general way but it seldom dominates the chat.
Was he a genius? Of course he was and still probably is!
You need look no further than Charlie Haughey's assessment of his abilities to find proof of this. "He's the man. He's the best, the most skilful, the most devious, and the most cunning of them all."
Remember the time he went down to Roscommon to attend some function or other and found a crowd of angry farmers out in force, waving placards and protesting at some cutbacks in their income? I forget the specific details but I don't forget the pictures of Bertie in amongst them that were carried by the national media the following day.
Adults who had gone onto the streets to protest at his government's actions were shaking his hand and seeking his autograph; they damn near chaired him around the local pitch for a lap of honour or two. I can't think of any other public figure that has the cojones to pull off a stroke like that. Can you?
I'm not saying that I admire Bertie Ahern but I'd use a long spoon if I ever sit down to supper with him. There's a lot more to the man than his pretty face.
Now, I most certainly will not vote for him if he stands in the Presidential Election or any other electoral contest either.
But it would be churlish to deny him the credit due for his part in the Peace Process negotiations. IMO, it's pointless speculating that someone else might have had the same success. The fact is that Ahern won the trust of Big Ian and the Shinners and brought them together-something that no one else had been able to do after 40 years of trying.
For me, his undoubted positive achievements only serve to highlight his financial peccadilloes. I hope the Mahon Tribunal will finish its investigations, sooner rather than later, and come up with a credible verdict. Let justice be done and seen to be done is all I can say.
Interesting reading here for me from Indiana and Lar. I must have drank pints in yer vicinity at some point. Lived around that area quite a bit and especially when I lived in Calderwood Road I'd see Bertie flanked by his mafia in the Goose or Beaumont House all the time.
I despise the man completely now. I think he should be in jail for a long time. He is cheap and nasty and despite preaching openly to the contrary he was lining his pockets. More crucially he sold this country down the swanny on a pyramid scheme designed to get him and his friends seriously rich. We (and our children and thei children) now pick up the tab for this.
Unfortunately I cannot run down his only big achievement - the peace process. I doubt whether it would have come to its successful conclusion without him. He is/was a genius in negotiation/mediation. That's not always a skill he used for good but in ths instance he did.
Saw his car outside Glasnevin cemetary on Christmas morning and was awful tempted to pelt him with snowballs when he came out!
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2011, 07:11:28 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 01, 2011, 01:41:32 AM
se afaik most of the inner circle were part of the fabricated dig-out stories etc. For all that, the few quid here and there was the least of his wrongdoings, I don't believe he profited to the extent that the people he helped out did, i'm talking about the developers and other who had tax laws amended in their favour.
He had some qualities, but a genius he was not and I have no idea why anyone would or could describe him as such.
Not from me, I remember being accused of being blinded by my disgust of the man back 3 or 4 years ago, that I had some decent points to make, but that everthing I wrote had to be looked at in that context (I think it was bellequa or someone who pointed that out to me).
I don't even blame Ahern tbh, he just gave people what they wanted, he didn't have the intellect to understand how unsustainable that was. Other people should have been shouting stop.
That said, he was very good at what he did in terms of coming across as personable and achieving electoral success, the deal with the greens being his most impressive achievement imo.
Re the north, I think it was going to happen regardless of him, there was no appetite for a continuation on any side and the wheels were long in motion before he was in power.
Probably know most of them. Certainly all who were associated with him up to the '97 election.
I lived off Hollybank Road in Glasnevin for several years and frequented both Kennedy's and Fagan's so I had ample opportunity to meet and mingle with Bertie and his buddies.
There were a number I didn't get on very well with and I guess the feeling was mutual. I get on very well with 4 or 5 of those closely associated with Ahern and when circumstances allow, I could meet one or other of them and stop for a chat or sit on an adjacent bar stool for a couple of pints From what those contacts tell me and from what I already knew, I'm certain that no single person knew the full extent of Bertie's off-the-ball activities. And no one ever will.
Nowadays, I don't go out of my way to seek out any of them but such meetings do happen on occasion and the subject of Bertie's latest misdemeanours may crop up in a general way but it seldom dominates the chat.
Was he a genius? Of course he was and still probably is!
You need look no further than Charlie Haughey's assessment of his abilities to find proof of this. "He's the man. He's the best, the most skilful, the most devious, and the most cunning of them all."
Remember the time he went down to Roscommon to attend some function or other and found a crowd of angry farmers out in force, waving placards and protesting at some cutbacks in their income? I forget the specific details but I don't forget the pictures of Bertie in amongst them that were carried by the national media the following day.
Adults who had gone onto the streets to protest at his government's actions were shaking his hand and seeking his autograph; they damn near chaired him around the local pitch for a lap of honour or two. I can't think of any other public figure that has the cojones to pull off a stroke like that. Can you?
I'm not saying that I admire Bertie Ahern but I'd use a long spoon if I ever sit down to supper with him. There's a lot more to the man than his pretty face.
Now, I most certainly will not vote for him if he stands in the Presidential Election or any other electoral contest either.
But it would be churlish to deny him the credit due for his part in the Peace Process negotiations. IMO, it's pointless speculating that someone else might have had the same success. The fact is that Ahern won the trust of Big Ian and the Shinners and brought them together-something that no one else had been able to do after 40 years of trying.
For me, his undoubted positive achievements only serve to highlight his financial peccadilloes. I hope the Mahon Tribunal will finish its investigations, sooner rather than later, and come up with a credible verdict. Let justice be done and seen to be done is all I can say.
Well Lar, it seems to me that is exactly what you are saying. That age old Irish thing of admiration for the sneaky f**ker that gets away with it.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 02, 2011, 08:10:43 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 02, 2011, 07:11:28 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 01, 2011, 01:41:32 AM
se afaik most of the inner circle were part of the fabricated dig-out stories etc. For all that, the few quid here and there was the least of his wrongdoings, I don't believe he profited to the extent that the people he helped out did, i'm talking about the developers and other who had tax laws amended in their favour.
He had some qualities, but a genius he was not and I have no idea why anyone would or could describe him as such.
Not from me, I remember being accused of being blinded by my disgust of the man back 3 or 4 years ago, that I had some decent points to make, but that everthing I wrote had to be looked at in that context (I think it was bellequa or someone who pointed that out to me).
I don't even blame Ahern tbh, he just gave people what they wanted, he didn't have the intellect to understand how unsustainable that was. Other people should have been shouting stop.
That said, he was very good at what he did in terms of coming across as personable and achieving electoral success, the deal with the greens being his most impressive achievement imo.
Re the north, I think it was going to happen regardless of him, there was no appetite for a continuation on any side and the wheels were long in motion before he was in power.
Probably know most of them. Certainly all who were associated with him up to the '97 election.
I lived off Hollybank Road in Glasnevin for several years and frequented both Kennedy's and Fagan's so I had ample opportunity to meet and mingle with Bertie and his buddies.
There were a number I didn't get on very well with and I guess the feeling was mutual. I get on very well with 4 or 5 of those closely associated with Ahern and when circumstances allow, I could meet one or other of them and stop for a chat or sit on an adjacent bar stool for a couple of pints From what those contacts tell me and from what I already knew, I'm certain that no single person knew the full extent of Bertie's off-the-ball activities. And no one ever will.
Nowadays, I don't go out of my way to seek out any of them but such meetings do happen on occasion and the subject of Bertie's latest misdemeanours may crop up in a general way but it seldom dominates the chat.
Was he a genius? Of course he was and still probably is!
You need look no further than Charlie Haughey's assessment of his abilities to find proof of this. "He's the man. He's the best, the most skilful, the most devious, and the most cunning of them all."
Remember the time he went down to Roscommon to attend some function or other and found a crowd of angry farmers out in force, waving placards and protesting at some cutbacks in their income? I forget the specific details but I don't forget the pictures of Bertie in amongst them that were carried by the national media the following day.
Adults who had gone onto the streets to protest at his government's actions were shaking his hand and seeking his autograph; they damn near chaired him around the local pitch for a lap of honour or two. I can't think of any other public figure that has the cojones to pull off a stroke like that. Can you?
I'm not saying that I admire Bertie Ahern but I'd use a long spoon if I ever sit down to supper with him. There's a lot more to the man than his pretty face.
Now, I most certainly will not vote for him if he stands in the Presidential Election or any other electoral contest either.
But it would be churlish to deny him the credit due for his part in the Peace Process negotiations. IMO, it's pointless speculating that someone else might have had the same success. The fact is that Ahern won the trust of Big Ian and the Shinners and brought them together-something that no one else had been able to do after 40 years of trying.
For me, his undoubted positive achievements only serve to highlight his financial peccadilloes. I hope the Mahon Tribunal will finish its investigations, sooner rather than later, and come up with a credible verdict. Let justice be done and seen to be done is all I can say.
Well Lar, it seems to me that is exactly what you are saying. That age old Irish thing of admiration for the sneaky f**ker that gets away with it.
Precisely Miles and an example of how FF stayed in power so long. Its quite simply unreal. No-one can take away his role in the Peace Process. However that does not hide the corruption, the deceit and the downright skullduggery he took part in.
Ahern would have got what he deserved in Ireland c.1922
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 02, 2011, 08:10:43 PM
Well Lar, it seems to me that is exactly what you are saying. That age old Irish thing of admiration for the sneaky f**ker that gets away with it.
Jaysus, myles, maybe I write too slow or you read too fast but that's not quite what I was on about.
If you re-read the full sentence in question you will see what I mean. I would never take Bertie Ahern for a fool and I wouldn't fancy my chances of coming out on top if I ever did tangle with him. I also said I would never vote for him again- or words to that effect.
I did write:
"For me, his undoubted positive achievements only serve to highlight his financial peccadilloes."
Like Indy puts it in the post above:
"No-one can take away his role in the Peace Process. However that does not hide the corruption, the deceit and the downright skulduggery he took part in."
Exactly; but I'd go further and say that his undoubted brilliance makes what he got up to even worse than it seems. Unless the Tribunal gets to issue its verdict, I don't think we will ever find out the full truth and it's quite possible that we never will.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 02, 2011, 01:34:13 PMHimself and Fitzpatrick should be put in stocks in O Connell Street. But then again Bogball and his nanny state mates would probably take the hit for him. Thats Ireland for you ;D.
As one of Ahern's biggest critics on this board for the past 4/5 years, I'm baffled.
I don't start many threads, but here's one I did.
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=3008.0
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 02, 2011, 10:19:25 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 02, 2011, 01:34:13 PMHimself and Fitzpatrick should be put in stocks in O Connell Street. But then again Bogball and his nanny state mates would probably take the hit for him. Thats Ireland for you ;D.
As one of Ahern's biggest critics on this board for the past 4/5 years, I'm baffled.
I don't start many threads, but here's one I did.
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=3008.0
I meant to say in my last post that Indiana must have picked you up wrong cos I couldn't see why he was critical of you.
Lar, you are pretty much saying, it seems to me, that bertie is a political genius who used his skills for bad ends. I have a problem using the term genius when referring to a corrupt conman. It's akin to saying Hitler was a genius to get all those Germans to do what he wanted.
No Myles-it's not like Hitler at all. not even in the same ballpark
Quote from: stephenite on January 02, 2011, 11:35:29 PM
No Myles-it's not like Hitler at all. not even in the same ballpark
It's a simile, look it up in the dictionary.
Credit for the Peace Process rests with the people of Ireland. It does not lie with Bertie Ahern. If you are to name individuals for credit in the peace process you can name John Hume, Gerry Adams and David Trimble. After that there is a big drop in contributers.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 02, 2011, 11:28:28 PM
Lar, you are pretty much saying, it seems to me, that bertie is a political genius who used his skills for bad ends. I have a problem using the term genius when referring to a corrupt conman. It's akin to saying Hitler was a genius to get all those Germans to do what he wanted.
Ok, then maybe we can agree to differ on our interpretation of the concept of "genius."
You can have geniuses of the malign variety as well as the benign. Sometimes you come across one with a foot in both camps. Evil geniuses can and definitely do exist and we have our inimitable Evil Genius to prove it and I'm not being totally facetious here. But geniuses can be fallible.
Bertie came from a solid Dublin working class background and started his working career as a clerk in the Mater accounts department. Getting elected to the Dail in the '77 landslide was no big deal but what happened from there on certainly was.
Now, all shades of Irish people were happy to bask in his reflected glory as he strode the world stage and most were quite happy to grab their share of the increased prosperity that the Celtic Tiger brought along.
Me? As the noughties wore on I felt the hoor was losing the run of himself and was letting the adulation get to his head. He made some serious political gaffes and we will be forced to pay the price for his errors for ages to come. Still a genius, btw, but definitely a flawed one at this stage.
His worst sin was to shaft McCreevy and pack him off to Europe when the latter began to get concerned that the economy was starting to spin out of control. He made a double whammy when he replaced Charlie Mac with the Cowan. Some of his close associates have said that he placed loyalty in front of ability when choosing his cabinet and he sure hit the jackpot with the Biffo.
He wanted the boom to keep on getting boomier and started trading election promises with the Opposition. It's one thing to promise boots for the footless and glasses for the blind when you are outside trying to get in but it are quite another matter if you promise to match those offers when you are in power.
Eddie Hobbs and David McWilliams were starting to sound the alarm but Bertie/Biffo chose to ignore the danger signs and, unfortunately, they got it badly wrong.
Maybe Bertie was starting to get increasingly rattled as the Tribunal hummed away in the background and was losing his concentration but, whatever the reason, this genius was becoming fallible. He goofed badly but that shouldn't detract from his past achievements.
As for the Tribunal's conclusions, when they come, I don't expect anything too dramatic. That is not to say I feel Bertie did nothing wrong. But there's one hell of a difference between what a private individual may feel and a court of law can prove.
In his head to head with des O'Neill, I felt Bertie was leading comfortably on points until Grainne Carruth took the stand. O'Neill couldn't prove that any of the donors had received political favours so he couldn't pin a charge of political corruption on his adversary. Bertie might get a slap on the hand but no boot up the rock and roll. It's usually overlooked but the man had a powerful legal defence team to guide him but apart from a few uncomfortable sessions with the Revenue Commisioners and probably some of his associates getting a bit of hassle from the gardai was about the worst to be anticipated.
Poor Grainne's stint on the witness may have altered the dynamics a lot but only the verdict can confirm this.
Will this be justice at work?
Probably not but we're talking Law here and not Justice!
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 03, 2011, 03:01:48 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 02, 2011, 11:28:28 PM
Lar, you are pretty much saying, it seems to me, that bertie is a political genius who used his skills for bad ends. I have a problem using the term genius when referring to a corrupt conman. It's akin to saying Hitler was a genius to get all those Germans to do what he wanted.
Ok, then maybe we can agree to differ on our interpretation of the concept of "genius."
You can have geniuses of the malign variety as well as the benign. Sometimes you come across one with a foot in both camps. Evil geniuses can and definitely do exist and we have our inimitable Evil Genius to prove it and I'm not being totally facetious here. But geniuses can be fallible.
Bertie came from a solid Dublin working class background and started his working career as a clerk in the Mater accounts department. Getting elected to the Dail in the '77 landslide was no big deal but what happened from there on certainly was.
Now, all shades of Irish people were happy to bask in his reflected glory as he strode the world stage and most were quite happy to grab their share of the increased prosperity that the Celtic Tiger brought along.
Me? As the noughties wore on I felt the hoor was losing the run of himself and was letting the adulation get to his head. He made some serious political gaffes and we will be forced to pay the price for his errors for ages to come. Still a genius, btw, but definitely a flawed one at this stage.
His worst sin was to shaft McCreevy and pack him off to Europe when the latter began to get concerned that the economy was starting to spin out of control. He made a double whammy when he replaced Charlie Mac with the Cowan. Some of his close associates have said that he placed loyalty in front of ability when choosing his cabinet and he sure hit the jackpot with the Biffo.
He wanted the boom to keep on getting boomier and started trading election promises with the Opposition. It's one thing to promise boots for the footless and glasses for the blind when you are outside trying to get in but it are quite another matter if you promise to match those offers when you are in power.
Eddie Hobbs and David McWilliams were starting to sound the alarm but Bertie/Biffo chose to ignore the danger signs and, unfortunately, they got it badly wrong.
Maybe Bertie was starting to get increasingly rattled as the Tribunal hummed away in the background and was losing his concentration but, whatever the reason, this genius was becoming fallible. He goofed badly but that shouldn't detract from his past achievements.
As for the Tribunal's conclusions, when they come, I don't expect anything too dramatic. That is not to say I feel Bertie did nothing wrong. But there's one hell of a difference between what a private individual may feel and a court of law can prove.
In his head to head with des O'Neill, I felt Bertie was leading comfortably on points until Grainne Carruth took the stand. O'Neill couldn't prove that any of the donors had received political favours so he couldn't pin a charge of political corruption on his adversary. Bertie might get a slap on the hand but no boot up the rock and roll. It's usually overlooked but the man had a powerful legal defence team to guide him but apart from a few uncomfortable sessions with the Revenue Commisioners and probably some of his associates getting a bit of hassle from the gardai was about the worst to be anticipated.
Poor Grainne's stint on the witness may have altered the dynamics a lot but only the verdict can confirm this.
Will this be justice at work?
Probably not but we're talking Law here and not Justice!
I think we can do that. Your one of the more measured posters on here Lar so we'll not fall out over it.
I see Bertie, like a scorpion, got his last dying sting out to Cowan and there are not too many of the FF loyals coming to his aid.
anyone who can pull a stunt like ahern did and not end up in jail certainly is worth watching. he'll never spend a night in a cell
Quote from: lawnseed on January 03, 2011, 10:15:56 PM
anyone who can pull a stunt like ahern did and not end up in jail certainly is worth watching. he'll never spend a night in a cell
I wouldn't be so sure, and if he does go down it'll be for tax evasion.
I ignored this thread because of the anger this man rages in me. The only positive for me is my ablity to read a persons character is intact as i had this fcker pinged yrs ago. Some great contributions on here from indiana,bogball and lar.
I have 1 question when are we likely to get a verdict in mahon tribunal?
And is there anyway the people of this Island can force poltical reform and how politics is run? Its time for overhaul, we cannot continue like this and watch the same thing happen again...
Read the Shane Ross Book- Wasters over the Christmas. Waht a legacy this man has left us. Let history judge him.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on January 04, 2011, 01:31:18 AM
I ignored this thread because of the anger this man rages in me. The only positive for me is my ablity to read a persons character is intact as i had this fcker pinged yrs ago. Some great contributions on here from indiana,bogball and lar.
I have 1 question when are we likely to get a verdict in mahon tribunal?
And is there anyway the people of this Island can force poltical reform and how politics is run? Its time for overhaul, we cannot continue like this and watch the same thing happen again...
I'd bet on the report being published next May or thereabouts.
We've been told that the contents are finalised but there have been a number of issues that has held its publication back. ASFAIK, the final obstacle was cleared last November when Owen O'Callaghan's appeal to the Supreme Court failed. It was reported then that Mahon and his team needed about six months more to tie up loose ends.
Ya need to bear in mind at all time that this is a tribunal and not a court. Alan Mahon won't send Bertie anywhere. That is not the function of a tribunal like this one. But the CAB , the revenue commissioners or the DPP may go after him as a result of the Mahon findings.
Ray Burke became a guest of the state because he was found guilty of obstructing the work of the tribunal but George Redmond was jailed after a follow-up investigation by the CAB. There have been a number of interim reports since the circus began as various modules were completed.
The next and final one should string them all together and bring out the one we have all been waiting for.
Bertie's big concern is being found guilty of the charge of political corruption.
That is what the tribunal was set up to investigate.
If he is found guilty, the DPP will move against him. If not, the revenue officials or the CAB may shake a few bob out of his pile of brown envelopes- that's about all that they can do.
I felt he was playing a blinder up to the very end of the public hearings—Grainne Carruth's evidence was very damaging.
What about the money he 'won' on the gee-gee's? Well, what about it?
Mahon needs to find that he got it from some source in return for political favours before the DPP goes after him. That means in simple English that Mahon will need to find that he did not win it on the racetrack.
I can't see that happening.
Bertie was caught lying about the money Grainne Carruth deposited for him. I can't see him being cited for anything else. He just might get in trouble with the DPP and the gardai but I won't bet on it.
Remember he is not on trial for banjaxing our economy.
I have seen some of my own family having to emigrate and have had my income slashed as a result of the mismanagement of the economy by Ahern and Cowan and I'm not a happy bunny.
It's just that I don't see Alan Mahon making me much happier.
He's back!!!!
and heading north ;D
Ahern for President ???
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on February 09, 2023, 09:25:37 PM
He's back!!!!
and heading north ;D
Ahern for President ???
the corruption haz picked up a notch since Bertie was around he's a light weight nowadays.