Changes to hurling league for 5 counties

[seafoid]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/hurling/2023/1110/1415789-a-farce-fermanagh-captain-slams-ahl-exclusion-plan/

A Fermanagh hurler has labelled proposals to potentially exclude a number of counties from the Allianz League from 2025 onwards as "a farce".

A recommendation from the GAA's Central Competitions Control Committee, if approved, would see any county with fewer than five adult hurling teams competing solely in the fifth-tier Lory Meagher Cup – meaning the Erne County, Cavan, Leitrim, Longford and Louth would be impacted.

With no league action, their county seasons would be reduced from six months to three with the saved spending, along with additional funding, instead aimed at improving hurling development in those counties.

Fermanagh captain Ryan Bogue, one of the longest serving inter-county hurlers having made his debut off the bench against Cavan in 2006, said he was gobsmacked when he was presented with the document explaining the possible changes.

"The whole thing seems to be made up and pulled out of the sky with no consideration put into it at all," he told RTÉ Sport.

"I wouldn't say I would be overly surprised. Over the last six, seven years, the treatment of hurling in counties like our own has definitely improved but previous to that you were always obviously second best in terms of privileges.

"I thought we had got past that but this is just back to that. Our county board is great, anything we want, we get, but this is coming from the top.

[marty34]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/hurling/2023/1110/1415789-a-farce-fermanagh-captain-slams-ahl-exclusion-plan/

A Fermanagh hurler has labelled proposals to potentially exclude a number of counties from the Allianz League from 2025 onwards as "a farce".

A recommendation from the GAA's Central Competitions Control Committee, if approved, would see any county with fewer than five adult hurling teams competing solely in the fifth-tier Lory Meagher Cup – meaning the Erne County, Cavan, Leitrim, Longford and Louth would be impacted.

With no league action, their county seasons would be reduced from six months to three with the saved spending, along with additional funding, instead aimed at improving hurling development in those counties.

Fermanagh captain Ryan Bogue, one of the longest serving inter-county hurlers having made his debut off the bench against Cavan in 2006, said he was gobsmacked when he was presented with the document explaining the possible changes.

"The whole thing seems to be made up and pulled out of the sky with no consideration put into it at all," he told RTÉ Sport.

"I wouldn't say I would be overly surprised. Over the last six, seven years, the treatment of hurling in counties like our own has definitely improved but previous to that you were always obviously second best in terms of privileges.

"I thought we had got past that but this is just back to that. Our county board is great, anything we want, we get, but this is coming from the top.

Disgraceful decision by the GAA.

Hopefully it won't see the light of day.

The GAA has no interest in hurling in lower tier counties. In saying that, the football heads in these 5 counties have a lot to answer for. Spinning half truths.

Mc Kennna announcing, in the same week, that millions will be spent on upgrading seats etc. in the Cusack Stand.

Embarrassing by HQ.

[johnnycool]

Read about this and it seems the logic is that if you reduce the IC calendar for these counties the additional two months would be spent trying to develop more clubs...

From RTE;

If Central Council passes the recommendation, it would see Cavan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford and Louth confined to the competition, reducing their inter-county season from six to three months. Louth are the only one of the counties that will play above Lory Meagher level this year.

The other three months would see an increased focus placed on hurling development on those counties.

Packages will be put in place to help raise the number of adult hurlers and teams in those counties. More coaches will be provided to schools and clubs, with a number of start-up grants available.

The CCCC says that once these counties are in a position to field five or more adult teams for a period of three years, they will be readmitted to the National Hurling League, where they currently compete in Division 3A and Division 3B.

It's estimated that a cumulative spend of €863,000 financed senior inter-county hurling panels in those counties alone this year.

The GAA is concerned that while positive work is ongoing at underage level in those counties, no progress has been made in terms of increasing adult participation. The number of teams has actually been trending in the wrong direction.

Since the GAA's annual report in 2008, Louth has gone from fielding eight sides to three (Knockbridge, Naomh Moninne, St Fechin's), Leitrim has seen a drop from five teams to two (Carrick, Glencar/Manorhamilton), Longford (Clonguish, Longford Slashers, Wolfe Tones) and Cavan (East Cavan Gaels, Cootehill Celtic, Mullahoran) have lost a team each and have three clubs, while Fermanagh is home to two teams from three (Lisbellaw, Erne Gaels).

Central Council will decide in December whether or not to adopt the motion.

I've deliberately highlighted the most important part as this isn't about developing hurling, it's about saving money...

So between these 5 county teams they'll save €863K, but I'd hazard a guess this "saving" won't be funnelled back into the club game in those respective counties.

I wondered if anyone has bothered to speak to the club hurlers in these counties to see what the actual issues are!

[ardtole]

Surely if they are serious about promoting hurling in these 5 counties they would be providing funds for underage development. There would need to be a long term plan.

How many clubs has Mayo? Toreen and Ballyhaunis are only 2 I've heard off, how did they escape the chop. Toreen have been to an intermediate all ireland final, maybe the likes of the Mayo clubs should be used as a guide for hurling clubs in traditional football counties.

[nrico2006]

Tyrone have less than 5 too.

[marty34]

How much are Leitrim, Waterford and Carlow etc. spending on their senior football teams... for little in return.

How are these big shots in CP measuring value for money?

[johnnycool]

From the premierviewpodcast


The Plan to cut Intercounty Hurling in the "Weaker Counties"
November 10, 2023
Hurling Development in Weaker Counties
As part of the consultation process around the structures for the 2025 Allianz Hurling leagues,
additional feedback from some Counties focussed on the overall emphasis and spend on inter
county hurling versus progress being made in terms of broader Hurling Development.


The issue
There are five Counties who have less than 5 Adult Club Hurling teams participating annually. These
Counties, the number of adult hurling teams in each and their estimated spend on the Senior Inter
County Hurling team in 2023 are:


Cavan 3 East Cavan Gaels, Cootehill Celtic, Mullahoran (€142,000)
Fermanagh 2 Lisbellaw, Erne Gaels (€117,000)
Leitrim 2 Carrick, Glencar/Manorhamilton (€203,000)
Longford 3 Clonguish, Longford Slashers, Wolfe Tones (€182,000)
Louth 3 St Feichins, Naomh Monine, Knockbridge (€219,000)


One sample County in 2022 had two adult club hurling teams and spent in excess of €200,000 on their inter county team.

There were 29 players on the intercounty panel; 6 of these were from clubs OUTSIDE of the County
No fewer than 6 of the 23 players from inside the County FAILED to make the starting team for their

Club in that year's County final.

While there is positive work ongoing in terms of Underage Hurling Development in these counties,
there does not appear to be any significant progress being made in terms of the number of teams
participating at adult club level where the investment on hurling seems to be restricted largely to the
Adult inter county team, with very little corresponding spend on hurling coaching or games
development generally.


In fact the number of Adult hurling teams in these Counties has FALLEN since their County teams
began competing in both the Leagues and the Summer Championships in 2005 (previous to this,
these Counties generally participated in the Hurling League only). The GAA's Annual Report from
fifteen years ago (2008) lists the numbers of registered Adult Hurling teams in the relevant Counties
as: 8 – Louth 5 – Leitrim, 4- Longford and Cavan; and 3 – Fermanagh.


It is abundantly clear that the current approach simply is not working.


There is no doubt the overall GAA spend on Hurling in these Counties is significant – on their senior
inter county teams alone, an estimated and cumulative €863,000 was spent by these five Counties in

However the question has to be asked as to whether this spend (on roughly 120 – 130 players
in total) is having any developmental impact whatsoever, outside of a small coterie of players, and
whether scarce resources – both financial and human – should be redirected towards a more
fundamental goal of increasing the overall pool of adult playing numbers and teams in these
counties.
It is the view of the C.C.C.C that a significantly different approach is needed if the GAA are to
successfully develop hurling in these Counties in a way that can be described as sustainable. In
consultation meetings with representatives of these Counties, this fact was readily acknowledged.
Recommendation: Therefore the CCCC are proposing the following for the consideration of Ard Chomhairle and
implementation as policy from 2025 onwards
that broadly speaking, any County with less than 5 adult clubs should participate in the Lory
Meagher cup only each year
The Lory Meagher Cup should be confined to those developing weaker Counties
This will reduce the inter county season length for those Counties from 6 months to 3
months; it is suggested that the additional three months should be used as a focus for
Hurling Development
To assist this, an investment package should be put in place to support Hurling Development
initiatives in these counties with the ultimate goal to raise the number of Adult club teams
participating in Hurling (initiatives could include the provision of coaches and equipment,
targeting of schools as a starting point for the development of hurling, start-up grants for
new teams etc).
The entire project should be cost neutral versus current spend on Hurling in the affected
Counties.
Once Counties have been able to field 5 or more adult club teams for a period of 3 years,
they can be reinstated in the National Hurling Leagues
It is our belief that the investment package for these Counties can be cost neutral to the Association
and can come at no particular extra cost to the Counties themselves – i.e. all central resources
normally given to these Counties to help fund hurling league participation could be pooled to fund
the new Hurling Development initiatives.
It is expected that were this approach to be adopted, in the region of €1m would be available over a
six or seven year period – simply by redirecting current central funds – to fund Development
projects aimed ultimately at saving the game of Hurling in these Counties.
Note on Warwickshire and Lancashire
Both Warwickshire and Lancashire currently have 5 Adult club teams participating in their
championships. C.C.C.C did consider whether the participation of these Counties should be restricted
to the Lory Meagher Cup or not. However, representatives of the CCCC met with both Counties and
while it is clear that there are challenges for the future of hurling in those counties, there is no doubt
that both appear to be on an upward trajectory and recent initiatives – such as the development of
the Na Mic Tíre club in Lancashire – are testament to this. For those reasons, the C.C.C.C believe both
Counties should continue to participate in both the League and Championship for the foreseeable
future at least.

Next Steps

CCCC to present Recommendation to Ard Chomhairle at November 2023 meeting
Ard Chomhairle to take a decision on whether to adopt CCCC Recommendation as policy
(from 2025 onwards) or not at December 2023 meeting.
If policy and idea of investment package is agreed in principle, Finance to establish exact
funding available
Meetings to be held with the relevant Counties towards putting in place a plan to establish
how funding could better be spent if redirected towards coaching initiatives. Ultimate goal
ultimate goal to achieve minimum of 5 adult hurling teams per County
If this proposal is adopted by Central Council in December, and if it is the view that the Lory
Meagher Cup is confined annually to the five developing Counties, the structure of the
Nickey Rackard and Christy Ring Cup will require to be revisited. As a guiding principle
however, the intention would be that teams in Nickey Rackard and Christy Ring would have
at least the same number of games as annually (between league and Championship) as
under the current structures.
Appendix 1
Adult teams per County 2023
The list below details the number of adult clubs in each of what are perceived to be the "weaker"
hurling Counties*:
Cavan 3 East Cavan Gaels, Cootehill Celtic, Mullahoran
Fermanagh 2 Lisbellaw, Erne Gaels
Leitrim 2 Carrick, Glencar/Manorhamilton
Longford 3 Clonguish, Longford Slashers, Wolfe Tones
Louth 3 St Feichins, Namoh Monine, Knockbridge

Warwickshire 5 Finbars, Mitchels, Erin go Bragh, Barnabas, Declans (Herts),
Lancashire 5 Wolfe Tones, Fullen Gaels, Na Mic Tíre (J), Cean Creige (Scotland) Yorkshire
Emeralds (J),
Sligo 7 Calry, Coolera/S'hill, Easkey, N. Eoin, W. Gaels, Tourlestrane(J), Molaise
Gls(J)
Monaghan 7 C'Blayney, C'macross, Truagh, Clontibret, Harps, Inniskeen, Latton (J)
Armagh 8 SHC = 5, JHC = 3 additional (plus 3 x 2 nd teams)
Donegal 10 Burt, Setanta, Buncrana, Mac Cumhaills, Eunans, Cl'aneely, Carn, A Ruadh, J
= Four Masters and Letterkenny Gaels
Roscommon 7 All 7 in SHC have a second team in JHC.
Mayo 11 Tooreen, C'Bar, B'Haunis, St Ciarans, J = Ballina, Moytura, Westport,
Claremorris, JB = Caiseal, Ballyvary, Gaeltacht Lorrais
*numbers based on Competitions Management Software

[Deerstalker]

If Croke Park decide to "redirect" the funding into grass roots activities the hurling areas won't see a pound of it. County Boards will hoover it up and use it for football.

What about these counties that spend a fortune on their football teams each year with no hope of ever doing anything ?

[johnnycool]

If Croke Park decide to "redirect" the funding into grass roots activities the hurling areas won't see a pound of it. County Boards will hoover it up and use it for football.

What about these counties that spend a fortune on their football teams each year with no hope of ever doing anything ?

You'll not be shocked to hear all five of those county boards are onboard with this decision according to GAA.ie.

It's interesting that there's someone looking at this considering we don't have a hurling Czar in place and haven't had for a few years and they've come up with this plan, but wonder if they could have done all this development work on the ground AND kept the county teams in place??

Radical, I know.

[Milltown Row2]

This is the daftest idea I've seen for a while now, there could be a thousand and one ideas that would have been better used than this one..

Do they think these clubs sit on their hole all year round? Most of the clubs with small numbers play in other leagues.. Carlow have 6 clubs at senior level, so they are very lucky   

Is there still an Ulster hurling league?

Football chairman in place and straight away the hurling takes a hit lol

[johnnycool]

This is the daftest idea I've seen for a while now, there could be a thousand and one ideas that would have been better used than this one..

Do they think these clubs sit on their hole all year round? Most of the clubs with small numbers play in other leagues.. Carlow have 6 clubs at senior level, so they are very lucky   

Is there still an Ulster hurling league?

Football chairman in place and straight away the hurling takes a hit lol

Burns isn't in place yet, this is before his reign but he has been on hurling development reviews in the past and in the words to him from Brian Cody, "leave the hurling alone" 

[marty34]

Key thing is the GAA didn't replace Martin Fogarty's position after the 3 years.

They'd rather spend millions on seats at CP and update ot for the business lads than invest properly in hurling at the lower levels. 

That tells you all you need to know.

[Londoner89]

Surely if they are serious about promoting hurling in these 5 counties they would be providing funds for underage development. There would need to be a long term plan.

How many clubs has Mayo? Toreen and Ballyhaunis are only 2 I've heard off, how did they escape the chop. Toreen have been to an intermediate all ireland final, maybe the likes of the Mayo clubs should be used as a guide for hurling clubs in traditional football counties.

Mayo have 4 clubs competing in the Senior champ.

Senior: Tooreen, Ballyhaunis, Castlebar Mitchells and St. Ciarans. St. Ciarans is an amalgamated team made up of players from 7 junior clubs.

Junior club are Claremorris, Moytura, Westport, Ballina, Ballyvara, Caiseal Gaels and Gaeltacht Iorrais. That is 13 clubs total.

Tooreen and Ballyhaunis look to be good bit ahead of other clubs when it comes to quality given some of the scores they put up.

[seafoid]

The counties involved are also adjacent and weak enough in football. No all Irelands since the 50s for Cavan and Louth and none ever for the other 3. Probabl'y à lot of internal emigration and people moving away too. Apart from Louth the other 4 would be economically disadvantaged

[Londoner89]

From the premierviewpodcast



Donegal 10 Burt, Setanta, Buncrana, Mac Cumhaills, Eunans, Cl'aneely, Carn, A Ruadh, J
= Four Masters and Letterkenny Gaels

Cloughaneely don't field hurling teams. Senior = Setanta, St. Eunans, Carndonagh, Buncrana, Sean Mac Cumhaills and Burt. Junior = Aodh Ruadh, Dungloe, Four Masters, Letterkenny Gaels and second teams from Burt, Setanta and Sean Mac Cumhaills.