Championship structures - the never ending saga?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Quite possibly AZ, but tackling the symptom yet again as opposed to the disease.

[AZOffaly]

Quite possibly AZ, but tackling the symptom yet again as opposed to the disease.

Yeah, but we should be used to that at this stage. That's why I always have said that we need to define the problem before we define a solution. Otherwise you end up changing stuff and either causing more problems, or not solving the problem that others think is there.

Is the problem uneven matches early in the championship?
Is the problem the long season?
Is the problem the gap between matches?
Is the problem the effect on the club scene?
Is the problem the poor crowds?
Is the problem the style of football?
Is the problem the 'easy' provinces?

There's so much angst over so many things, it's a wonder there's a championship at all. Sometimes I think people forget how it was years ago.

[westbound]

Quite possibly AZ, but tackling the symptom yet again as opposed to the disease.

Yeah, but we should be used to that at this stage. That's why I always have said that we need to define the problem before we define a solution. Otherwise you end up changing stuff and either causing more problems, or not solving the problem that others think is there.

Is the problem uneven matches early in the championship?
Is the problem the long season?
Is the problem the gap between matches?
Is the problem the effect on the club scene?
Is the problem the poor crowds?
Is the problem the style of football?
Is the problem the 'easy' provinces?

There's so much angst over so many things, it's a wonder there's a championship at all. Sometimes I think people forget how it was years ago.

I've said this before too....
we have to agree on 'the problem' before we can possibly agree on the solution

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Fundamentally, the issue is that the Provincial paths are inequitable, and an anachronism that should be properly reworked so that they don't play such a central part in the Championship.

That's been a beef for a long time at this stage, and throwing in more games at the post-Provincials' juncture is just, well, typical.

[Rossfan]

I know I seem to be in the minority on here, but I like the provincial championships. Offaly beating Longford, and losing to Westmeath, meant a lot, good and bad. I think they could be cleaned up, sped up and made more streamlined,

I too like the Provincials but need to be  cleaned up etc as you say.
As Fear says they need to be made less an integral part of the AI Championship.
But 120 years of tradition, local rivalries, good crowds (at most) and the opportunity for big days for many Counties in small towns like Clones, Roscommon, Killarney etc on Provincial day can't just be dumped.
I would suggest that my proposal back on page 1 or 2 addresses the problem of Kerry just bouncing into the AI Championship while others have to fight their way there, makes the League more relevant, has a small link between the Provincials and the AI and gives time for Club Championships.

East Tyrone I presume this new proposal has been circulated to County Boards and Prov Councils to chew over and no doubt it's up to them (and the GPA) to back, reject or come up with alternatives for the 2017 Congress.
As for retiring - if what you call "reserve football" is the equivalent of our Junior B -are you not retired already?

[mrhardyannual]

I know I seem to be in the minority on here, but I like the provincial championships. Offaly beating Longford, and losing to Westmeath, meant a lot, good and bad. I think they could be cleaned up, sped up and made more streamlined, but I still like them, and still hope to see Tipperary win a Munster Football at Senior Level. That's a real goal for these players.
[/quote]

You are not in the minority countrywide. The provincial championships have a huge appeal for the players and general public. Certainly you will get players with a few provincial medals in their pocket who couldn't care less for another one, but they are the minority. For players from weaker counties( whose well-being is constantly being worried over  but for whom the solutionseems to depend on them being exiled to lesser competitions) the prospect of winning a provincial final is more appealing than getting out of the group stages of a Champions league competition. The general public have no interest in a Champions League format. If its open draw then we are unlikely to see huge crowds travel from Tipp to play in Derry or Roscommon to Wexford. If seeded, it will just mean that the weaker counties are weeded out earlier.

Proponents of the Champions league format seem to base its proposed success on their mathematical ability to divide 32 by 8. Those who don't agree are deemed backward for failing to see the enormous potential generated by this mathematical formula. What they ignore is that entry to the Champions league is based on uneven "provincial" competitions with four teams from some leagues gaining direct admission based on their financial clout while the champions of another (ala Dundalk) have to play six games to get there. The income generated by many  "provincial " competitions dwarves the money earned by the Champions League and the competition remains dominated by the big spenders.

So when we attempt to redraw the ALL-Ireland competitions lets keep in mind some basics

• ALL counties want access to the Senior Championship, no matter how long they have been without a win or in the bottom division of the league.
  All counties (not just provincial councils) want to retain provincial competitions as they are the bread and butter (and sometimes the cake) providing the funds for development programmes etc locally.
  Meaningful club competitions need to be catered for especially throughout the period from April to October.

Until a solution is found that can cater for all three factors above we are as well to stay with the system, that for all its faults, has served us well.

[EastTyrone]

I know I seem to be in the minority on here, but I like the provincial championships. Offaly beating Longford, and losing to Westmeath, meant a lot, good and bad. I think they could be cleaned up, sped up and made more streamlined,

I too like the Provincials but need to be  cleaned up etc as you say.
As Fear says they need to be made less an integral part of the AI Championship.
But 120 years of tradition, local rivalries, good crowds (at most) and the opportunity for big days for many Counties in small towns like Clones, Roscommon, Killarney etc on Provincial day can't just be dumped.
I would suggest that my proposal back on page 1 or 2 addresses the problem of Kerry just bouncing into the AI Championship while others have to fight their way there, makes the League more relevant, has a small link between the Provincials and the AI and gives time for Club Championships.

East Tyrone I presume this new proposal has been circulated to County Boards and Prov Councils to chew over and no doubt it's up to them (and the GPA) to back, reject or come up with alternatives for the 2017 Congress.
As for retiring - if what you call "reserve football" is the equivalent of our Junior B -are you not retired already?

Semi retired with the intent of playing as much games as possible before my knees give way 
Usually the county team going well, means less games for purists like me haha.

[thebuzz]

I know I seem to be in the minority on here, but I like the provincial championships. Offaly beating Longford, and losing to Westmeath, meant a lot, good and bad. I think they could be cleaned up, sped up and made more streamlined, but I still like them, and still hope to see Tipperary win a Munster Football at Senior Level. That's a real goal for these players.

You are not in the minority countrywide. The provincial championships have a huge appeal for the players and general public. Certainly you will get players with a few provincial medals in their pocket who couldn't care less for another one, but they are the minority. For players from weaker counties( whose well-being is constantly being worried over  but for whom the solutionseems to depend on them being exiled to lesser competitions) the prospect of winning a provincial final is more appealing than getting out of the group stages of a Champions league competition. The general public have no interest in a Champions League format. If its open draw then we are unlikely to see huge crowds travel from Tipp to play in Derry or Roscommon to Wexford. If seeded, it will just mean that the weaker counties are weeded out earlier.

Proponents of the Champions league format seem to base its proposed success on their mathematical ability to divide 32 by 8. Those who don't agree are deemed backward for failing to see the enormous potential generated by this mathematical formula. What they ignore is that entry to the Champions league is based on uneven "provincial" competitions with four teams from some leagues gaining direct admission based on their financial clout while the champions of another (ala Dundalk) have to play six games to get there. The income generated by many  "provincial " competitions dwarves the money earned by the Champions League and the competition remains dominated by the big spenders.

So when we attempt to redraw the ALL-Ireland competitions lets keep in mind some basics

• ALL counties want access to the Senior Championship, no matter how long they have been without a win or in the bottom division of the league.
  All counties (not just provincial councils) want to retain provincial competitions as they are the bread and butter (and sometimes the cake) providing the funds for development programmes etc locally.
  Meaningful club competitions need to be catered for especially throughout the period from April to October.

Until a solution is found that can cater for all three factors above we are as well to stay with the system, that for all its faults, has served us well.
[/quote]

You talk a lot of sense mrhardyannual and I'm not just talking about the bit in bold. The provincial structures have to be retained no matter what the rest of the solution is and the champions league format mightn't be all it's cracked up to be.

[trileacman]

Congratulations to the Croker lads. If "increasing revenue" was the sole motivation of the founders of this idea then they have without doubt found the perfect solution. They've sacrificed nothing and yet managed to successfully increase the amount of times the top teams play each other in Croke Park and of course provided more matches between the big 6 for the TV companies to bid for.

From reading the complaints here the most prominent objections seem to be this.

1: Lack of time for club games/ too many IC games for top teams.
2: Structures which promote and favour those teams at the top.

The best solution for these problems would be an open draw straight knockout. That's ignoring the big issue of loss of revenue.

[Mayoffs]

Another step towards semi-professionalism. Some are all for it (mainly the intercounty player's and younger player's) but it has the danger of diminishing the provincial championship, or maybe not. We'll have to see how it pans out.. If it means more money for the club's to put into development then good luck to them, might be the way forward.

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

Congratulations to the Croker lads. If "increasing revenue" was the sole motivation of the founders of this idea then they have without doubt found the perfect solution. They've sacrificed nothing and yet managed to successfully increase the amount of times the top teams play each other in Croke Park and of course provided more matches between the big 6 for the TV companies to bid for.

From reading the complaints here the most prominent objections seem to be this.

1: Lack of time for club games/ too many IC games for top teams.
2: Structures which promote and favour those teams at the top.

The best solution for these problems would be an open draw straight knockout. That's ignoring the big issue of loss of revenue.

On point 1 there is a lack of time for club games but there is also not anywhere near enough meaningful games being played at intercounty level, with far too much football being played in preseason and not enough in the summer. The GPA proposal rectifies this, the GAA's one will only widen the gap between the top teams and the rest. The likes of Carlow will train all year for the usual 2 beatings.

[ranch]

Provincial c'ships are finished. As they aren't linked to Sam, it's just pointless.

I favour a 32 county open draw, FA cup style. No seeding.

I wish they'd do something quick though, people are leaving in their droves.

That would make too much sense.

[Hound]

It's not a bad plan, but the current system of knockout QFs is better than round robin QFs because we are still amateur.

People who proclaim round robin just haven't thought it through. In the the last round of games , what happens if:
- both teams are already out. Nobody would give a flying fig. A week or two to prepare for an utterly meaningless game , when the players could be back at their clubs. I'd love to see the ticket sales for this one!
- both teams already through. A shadow boxing contest just to decide who the semi final opponent will be. A waste of time
- a team already out versus a team needing a win. Automatic controversy about whether the team who are out are trying hard enough? How do you ensure they pick a proper team, and not just a completely experimental line up with an eye to next year?

The current system is by miles the best system in my opinion, but it may take a new system to come in for people to realise it. The imbalance of the provincials is the weakened in fairness. But we could go a way to solving it by allowing teams to move province if they want (not by force) like Galway in hurling

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

It's not a bad plan, but the current system of knockout QFs is better than round robin QFs because we are still amateur.

People who proclaim round robin just haven't thought it through. In the the last round of games , what happens if:
- both teams are already out. Nobody would give a flying fig. A week or two to prepare for an utterly meaningless game , when the players could be back at their clubs. I'd love to see the ticket sales for this one!
- both teams already through. A shadow boxing contest just to decide who the semi final opponent will be. A waste of time
- a team already out versus a team needing a win. Automatic controversy about whether the team who are out are trying hard enough? How do you ensure they pick a proper team, and not just a completely experimental line up with an eye to next year?

The current system is by miles the best system in my opinion, but it may take a new system to come in for people to realise it. The imbalance of the provincials is the weakened in fairness. But we could go a way to solving it by allowing teams to move province if they want (not by force) like Galway in hurling

Can't agree with the current system being the best, it has a majority of fans, players and managers pissed off so it has to change. The round robin at the 1/4 final stage is ridiculous for the reasons you pointed out though. The GPA's round robin at the start of the championship is ideal though with 24 out of 32 teams progressing and benefits for finishing top. Division 4 teams would benefit from a home game against a top seed and will know that 1 win would be enough to get 4 championship games which will aid development.
The provincials would be downgraded somewhat but there is still silverware to play for and division 2 and 3 teams would have a massive incentive to really go for their provincial crown to become a top seed in the group stage.
The league would also benefit a little from the GPA proposal.

Downside would be an end to dual players and the Hurling calender might need tweaking to facilitate the extra games in early summer.

[Over the Bar]

A ways to grab more money pile of shite idea!  Round Robin my hole.  The provincials are already mostly reduced to a weeks bragging rights.  How the FcUK does playing round robin instead of a knockout increase the excitement?  It doesn't. GAA money-grabbing fffuuucckkeerrsss