DUBLIN TEAM JOKES!

Started by Gaffer, August 26, 2008, 12:52:48 AM

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AZOffaly

Smoke and Daggers :) Please tell me that was accidental :)

easytiger95

#46
Home form has been the backbone of Dublin's league success these past five years and for myriad reasons, the rest of the league hasn't been able to keep pace. Most obviously and tellingly, Dublin's playing resources are clearly deeper than everyone else's and competition for places is fiercer....

It's obviously foolish to blithely declare that counties can learn a thing or two from the Dubs. That said, neither is everything is a vast galaxy away in the distance. Dublin's move to Croke Park in 2011 coincided with the flourishing of a brilliant crop of players under two inspirational management teams and that's the main reason they are who they are today. But having a home patch to defend and be proud of was a part of it too.

You don't necessarily need to have a Croke Park to achieve that.


From the same article.

Selective quoting is not factual. Nor is looking at the record of home league wins and extrapolating that playing in Croke Park was the key factor (having better players and managers then in the Parnell Park days, or in the two previous Croke Park league fixtures during the noughties, which the Dubs lost, surely counts for more). Also, Dublin played league fixtures in Croke Park during the eighties, not regularly, but not once in a blue moon either. There was no correlation between venue and success.

Let's look at the facts - the groundswell of support for Dublin which crested in the noughties/ early 2010s made a move to a bigger stadium for league matches necessary. In the first year of League games in 2011 there were crowds of 35 to 40k. Now you are more likely to see crowds of 24 - 26k, even on double header meetings. Undoubtedly, Dublin should be developing a multipurpose, 40k capacity stadium but have probably missed their chance again - until that happens, Croke Park is the only logical place to have them, unless you think it is really feasible for Dublin GAA to turn away 15 thousand people a week? Why would you want to do that?

Secondly, a lot of the criticism of Dublin's "home" advantage is coming from counties who have consistently voted to keep Dublin in Croke Park for the Leinster championship. The credibility of those counties on this subject is pretty much nil - especially since the redevelopment of Croke Park meant that the other Leinster counties were also getting outings at HQ throughout the Leinster championship, albeit in double headers. The retreat back to provincial grounds for Leinster championships were at the behest of these counties, a symptom of lack of success and faltering support. You could be guaranteed that a Meath team on a level with the 2007 or 2010 crop would be playing a lot of their championship games in Croker. That doesn't make sense now, which is a function of Meath's decline rather than Dublin dominance. Same for Kildare and Offaly.

Thirdly, Dublin have won five all Ireland finals (six games) by an average differential of 1.16 points. That is a fact and doesn't come anywhere close to the dominance that the Kerry team of 78-81 exerted or Kilkenny 2005-2010 did. If you want to talk about Kerry, Mayo, Dublin, and to a lesser extent, Donegal and Tyrone, opening up a gap over all the others, feel free. But do it in that context.

Lastly, when Stephen Cluxton retires, all those who scoff at the notion of a special group of players, will have their answer. If Dublin had anyone near his quality in that position, you'd see them being blooded - but it doesn't happen. You think Jim Gavin hasn't thought about succession planning? Dublin won't see the like of these players again. They won't ever go back to the shambles that they were, through 96-2001, or 08-10 (hopefully), but the idea of a thousand year Dublin Reich, is only proposed, by those who don't know as much about sport as they claim.






Maroon Manc

Just because the Dubs weren't winning AI's doesn't mean Croker wasn't an advantage, they'd likely have been beat by bigger margins then they were prior to 2011

AZOffaly

#48
Tiger, please give the 'we won't see these players again' line a rest. How many of the All Ireland team from last year were involved in the first win of this era? There's been a large turnover, and newcomers like Con O'Callaghan, Brian Fenton, John Small, Ciaran Kilkenny etc keep coming through. It's a direct result of the development and coaching, and there's nothing to suggest that that is drying up.

Dublin 1-15, 2011 AIF v Kerry


DUBLIN:
1   Stephen Cluxton      
2   Michael Fitzsimons      
3   Rory O'Carroll      
4   Cian O'Sullivan      
5   James McCarthy   
6   Ger Brennan   
7   Kevin Nolan      
8   Denis Bastick   
9   Michael Darragh MacAuley      
10   Paul Flynn   
11   Barry Cahill
12   Bryan Cullen
13   Alan Brogan      
14   Diarmuid Connolly      
15   Bernard Brogan

Dublin 1-15 v Mayo, All Ireland Final 2017


GK   1   Stephen Cluxton (c)
CB   2   Philly McMahon
FB   3   Cian O'Sullivan   
CB   4   Michael Fitzsimons
WB   5   Jonny Cooper   
HB   6   John Small   
WB   7   Jack McCaffrey   
MF   8   Brian Fenton   
MF   9   James McCarthy   
WF   10   Ciarán Kilkenny   
HF   11   Con O'Callaghan
WF   26   Eoghan O'Gara   
CF   13   Paul Mannion   
FF   14   Paddy Andrews   
CF   15   Dean Rock


Ní bheidh a leithéidí arís ann indeed.

Farrandeelin

Quote from: TheGreatest on February 01, 2018, 11:03:04 AM
That's were I seen it alright, thought it would be nice to rekindle it.

Any word on the Mayo obsession on that page?
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.

tippabu

Whether people complain or not doesn't make a difference. Playing in croke park virtually every championship game is a big advantage. Kerry have a big advantage over the teams in the prelim round in Ulster because they potentially only have to win two games to reach the 1/4 finals or super 8s, just because it's always been the case doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

easytiger95

Quote from: AZOffaly on February 01, 2018, 12:43:24 PM
Tiger, please give the 'we won't see these players again' line a rest. How many of the All Ireland team from last year were involved in the first win of this era? There's been a large turnover, and newcomers like Con O'Callaghan, Brian Fenton, John Small, Ciaran Kilkenny etc keep coming through. It's a direct result of the development and coaching, and there's nothing to suggest that that is drying up.

Dublin 1-15, 2011 AIF v Kerry


DUBLIN:
1   Stephen Cluxton      
2   Michael Fitzsimons      
3   Rory O'Carroll      
4   Cian O'Sullivan      
5   James McCarthy   
6   Ger Brennan   
7   Kevin Nolan      
8   Denis Bastick   
9   Michael Darragh MacAuley      
10   Paul Flynn   
11   Barry Cahill
12   Bryan Cullen
13   Alan Brogan      
14   Diarmuid Connolly      
15   Bernard Brogan

Dublin 1-15 v Mayo, All Ireland Final 2017


GK   1   Stephen Cluxton (c)
CB   2   Philly McMahon
FB   3   Cian O'Sullivan   
CB   4   Michael Fitzsimons
WB   5   Jonny Cooper   
HB   6   John Small   
WB   7   Jack McCaffrey   
MF   8   Brian Fenton   
MF   9   James McCarthy   
WF   10   Ciarán Kilkenny   
HF   11   Con O'Callaghan
WF   26   Eoghan O'Gara   
CF   13   Paul Mannion   
FF   14   Paddy Andrews   
CF   15   Dean Rock


Ní bheidh a leithéidí arís ann indeed.

I'd expect more from an Offaly man who saw two amazing hurling teams emerge on the backs of each other, literally a minor team coming in to replace a senior, only to be followed by two decades of hammerings. These things do happen in cycles.

Also looking at your list, the key men are still there - Cluxton, O'Sullivan, MacCarthy, Connolly - Brogan, Flynn and Connolly all came in off the bench, MDMA was also there and still starting in the league this year, Kilkenny and Mannion both talented minors/U21s in 2011 and would have been known to the senior squad, as was Costello. Mick Fitzsimons started both finals as well, Rory O'Carroll would have been a starter in both as well if he had not opted out (and I believe him to be a better full back than Jonny Cooper).

The core leadership group all are intact, but won't be for long, and I believe it will be better judged when they start to retire.

And as for me "giving it a rest" there are literally volumes on this board of whines about Dublin. Many from Leinster counties (which was another point you didn't address in my original point) and I contribute very little to these arguments these days. So, forgive me, but I will state my point when I want to. Given the penchant for repetition on the other side of the debate, I don't think I need to worry.

AZOffaly

#52
I have no problem with you stating your view. I think you know me by now on that score. But I just wanted to pick up on this 'one in a lifetime generation' stuff. Its' simply not true, and the fresh blood coming in are good indicators of that. Jack McCaffery, Con O'Callaghan, Ciaran Kilkenny, etc etc all have miraculously appeared despite a lot of the once in a lifetime guys disappearing.

If you are telling me that the arse will fall out of it when Cluxton retires, well forgive me for being very skeptical.

The facts are that Dublin benefits enormously from coaching funds directly from the GAA, and has invested that funding very well, which in turn produces very high quality players. If it didn't, as I've said before, it would be a criminal waste of money.

As for your other points. I do believe it is a benefit to Dublin to play all their major games in Croke Park. They stay at home, have their routine down pat, and even use the same dressing room for every single game, except when they play Ard Mhaca and Aontroim. 

As you quite rightly point out, that is the fault of the other counties in Leinster, so I have limited sympathy for them and their bleating when their team ends up in the same side of the draw and they start talking about neutral or home venues.

So to my mind, Dublin are the best team in the country, and they also are dealing with a stacked deck. And not only that, to stretch the metaphor, but the casino is also bankrolling them in learning how to play poker.

Oh, and just one final point. On the Offaly thing. Offaly are an absolute case in point of why the same thing won't happen to Dublin. Offaly neglected underage coaching. They assumed that they would produce another team just because we 'have natural hurlers'. We fell years behind in our investment in underage, and only literally in the last 5 or 6 years has the penny dropped. The GAA have more or less guaranteed that Dublin won't do that, because the huge sums invested in their coaching and games development means that that sort of stupidity and penny pinching is not even a factor. Dublin don't have to rob Peter to pay Paul, and divert funds away from coaching, because they get such a massive influx of funds from Croke Park explicitly for that purpose. I do believe Cyclical patterns can happen, but the way you smooth out the troughs is by maintaining high standards in coaching, and when you do that with the natural population advantages Dublin has, then you are protected.

Syferus

The Railway Cup should be brought back just so Dublin can have some halfways comparable competition.

easytiger95

Quote from: AZOffaly on February 01, 2018, 06:42:20 PM
I have no problem with you stating your view. I think you know me by now on that score. But I just wanted to pick up on this 'one in a lifetime generation' stuff. Its' simply not true, and the fresh blood coming in are good indicators of that. Jack McCaffery, Con O'Callaghan, Ciaran Kilkenny, etc etc all have miraculously appeared despite a lot of the once in a lifetime guys disappearing.

Bad example - we all knew that Kilkenny was coming in 2011, he started in the 2012 campaign, same with Caffrey and Mannion circa 2012, then starting in 2013. They are veterans of this group. I saw Costello bossing Cumann Na mBunscoil games in the mid noughties. Everyone knew he was a gem back then. O'Callaghan is the real outlier here, in terms of his rapid development, when we were looking for other lads coming through.

If you are telling me that the arse will fall out of it when Cluxton retires, well forgive me for being very skeptical.

We'll see when he goes. But if you are sceptical of his influence, then please don't, in the summer, buy into all the tactical talk about how you disrupt his kick outs (not saying that personally about you). You can't have it both ways. He has been the most influential player of his generation, the team has been shaped around his talents - and his retirement won't be a loss? A huge loss? Colour me sceptical of your scepticism.



The facts are that Dublin benefits enormously from coaching funds directly from the GAA, and has invested that funding very well, which in turn produces very high quality players. If it didn't, as I've said before, it would be a criminal waste of money.

All counties receive coaching funds. It is up to them to spend them as well as they can. I would certainly support a lessening of support for the Dublin programme now, as their present success could bulwark those structures going forward. However, there is the far bigger funding debate about the role the Dublin clubs themselves played in financing those coaches. The supine position of counties, especially Leinster counties, with regard to Dublin has gone beyond a joke and moved into a tragedy. How long do Meath, Kildare et al get to complain about Dublin, before they actually try and do something for themselves? Where are the commercial directors, where are the delegates and chairmen demanding funding, producing the plans (which Dublin had to do to secure this disputed funding)?


As for your other points. I do believe it is a benefit to Dublin to play all their major games in Croke Park. They stay at home, have their routine down pat, and even use the same dressing room for every single game, except when they play Ard Mhaca and Aontroim. 

As you quite rightly point out, that is the fault of the other counties in Leinster, so I have limited sympathy for them and their bleating when their team ends up in the same side of the draw and they start talking about neutral or home venues.

So to my mind, Dublin are the best team in the country, and they also are dealing with a stacked deck. And not only that, to stretch the metaphor, but the casino is also bankrolling them in learning how to play poker.

The dressing rooms are identical, nor is any county allowed alter the dressing rooms to make them in any way different. As for staying at home, are you proposing moving the capital? Or moving the stadium? Stacked deck?? C'mon AZ

Oh, and just one final point. On the Offaly thing. Offaly are an absolute case in point of why the same thing won't happen to Dublin. Offaly neglected underage coaching. They assumed that they would produce another team just because we 'have natural hurlers'. We fell years behind in our investment in underage, and only literally in the last 5 or 6 years has the penny dropped. The GAA have more or less guaranteed that Dublin won't do that, because the huge sums invested in their coaching and games development means that that sort of stupidity and penny pinching is not even a factor. Dublin don't have to rob Peter to pay Paul, and divert funds away from coaching, because they get such a massive influx of funds from Croke Park explicitly for that purpose. I do believe Cyclical patterns can happen, but the way you smooth out the troughs is by maintaining high standards in coaching, and when you do that with the natural population advantages Dublin has, then you are protected.

Again, we will see. A county of Dublin's size should always be in that elite group. It all depends on your definition of success. Offaly's four hurling All Irelands, coming from their base of clubs, bears comparison as an achievement. Also, I find your logic quite tortuous. Did Offaly not invest because they had no money? Or because of the stupidity of the county board? Or did the stupidity of the county board lead them to believe that they did not need to find the money? In other words, the collapse was not a function of finances but complacency and hubris. Having suffered through many years of both with Dublin, I am quite sure we could be afflicted by both again. In fact, if we didn't, we would be absolute outlier, not only in sport, but in most areas of life.

seafoid

The last 2 tiki taka minutes of the All Ireland final were a joke as was wrestling 3 Mayo players to the ground
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Crete Boom

Quote from: AZOffaly on February 01, 2018, 12:22:06 PM
Smoke and Daggers :) Please tell me that was accidental :)

There is no smoke without water AZ!!

From the Bunker

All we need is for Zulu to turn up as a neutral observer to speal the same rubbish!

TheGreatest

Quote from: seafoid on February 01, 2018, 08:36:17 PM
The last 2 tiki taka minutes of the All Ireland final were a joke as was wrestling 3 Mayo players to the ground

Paul Kimmage has joined the board.

Kill or be killed. Anything other than that is loser talk.

We all think here on this site that the GAA is this big friendly utopia sport were we all sit around singing kumbaya. Its not, its a ferocious ultra competitive sport which no quarter given. 

Syferus

It's an amateur sport with one province's professionally prepared team masqurading as a county.