PAY-FOR-PLAY

Started by vetoldthe, October 03, 2018, 07:06:29 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

five points

Quote from: pbat on October 04, 2018, 08:39:12 PM
1. Player Endorsements - If Adidas want to pay Joe Canning 20k for an ad fine but it gets approved from Croke Park. The 20K goes into a pool with all other endorsements over the year and then is split evenly among 64 counties panels at the end of the year. All players sign a commitment each January that this the only way endorsements are to be done and anything outside of this is a breach of the rules resulting in suspensions.
So if Joe Canning gives up his day to drive to Dublin for a press launch or other event, the money he earns for this is split among thousands of other players?   
Quote
2. Sponsorship - If AIG reckon Dublin worth 1 million a year and Simply Fruits deal is 50k a year to Armagh (dont know what actual figures just an example) fine but all 32 sponsorship deals are approved at central council and the pool of funds distributed between 32 counties. AIG still getting the big advertisement so the amounts paid wouldn't drop of.
Why would eg Kingspan stick with sponsoring Cavan through thick and thin for 25 years if Cavan only ever see 1/32nd of their money?
Quote
If a club/county can not genuinely get a inside man then they make there case to the county board/Croke Park. It will encourage more underage managers in clubs/counties because they believe if they can prove themselves there is really a chance of stepping up.
Being an inside manager at a normal run-of-the-mill club is a fool's errand.
Quote
Any adult player is only entitled to one transfer in a lifetime thus meaning they cannot return to there own club they started with when the cash cow of the big clubs dry up or age catches up with them.
Basically banning anyone from playing GAA if they move job or home more than once in their lifetime.
Quote
5. America - Anyone who decides to go to play in the states for a summer cannot play club or county football in Ireland until January of the follow year. Might stop players going for the dollar for 2 months then back in September for club championship. People will argue about the students. They can still go earn there summer money but that comes at a cost with no club to fall back to. It might be harsh on some but will stop lads announcing the morning after the county is beat they are gone and wont hang around for the qualifiers.
They'll still go to America. It will be their clubs that will suffer in the autumn.

caprea

If the GPA balloted their members on the possibility of disbanding all county squads until the players were given an opportunity to enter into formal discussions to take the game professional what do people think would happen?

trueblue1234

Quote from: caprea on October 05, 2018, 12:21:47 PM
If the GPA balloted their members on the possibility of disbanding all county squads until the players were given an opportunity to enter into formal discussions to take the game professional what do people think would happen?

A) It's not a decision for just the elite players so even if the GPA say yes it's still a decision for the wider GAA organisation who I would be fairly sure (IMO) would say no to a gun being held to their head to force professionalism through.
B) Even if by some miraculous reason they decide to agree I think the paying public would drop it like a stone and focus on club. Again stopping the money pouring in.
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit

caprea

The GPA represents only inter-county players so I  don't understand what you mean

Rossfan

#49
Don't know where you come from trueblue but round here hardly any of Joe Public goes to club matches :(
Why would the GPA be balloting members to dissolve County squads?
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

sligoman2

Quote from: pbat on October 04, 2018, 08:39:12 PM
I am all for endorsement but only if there is a level of fair play and transparency, there is things the GAA could implement to even the financial differences and bring the association back towards the amateur organisation most of us grew up loving. Some of the ideas may seem radical but might take a bit of an overhaul and something dramatic to bring the grassroots back into the fold.

1. Player Endorsements - If Adidas want to pay Joe Canning 20k for an ad fine but it gets approved from Croke Park. The 20K goes into a pool with all other endorsements over the year and then is split evenly among 64 counties panels at the end of the year. All players sign a commitment each January that this the only way endorsements are to be done and anything outside of this is a breach of the rules resulting in suspensions.

2. Sponsorship - If AIG reckon Dublin worth 1 million a year and Simply Fruits deal is 50k a year to Armagh (dont know what actual figures just an example) fine but all 32 sponsorship deals are approved at central council and the pool of funds distributed between 32 counties. AIG still getting the big advertisement so the amounts paid wouldn't drop of.

3. Outside Managers - No club or county can have a manager/couch/trainer from outside that club/county. Will not totally eradicate the brown envelopes but will definitely reduce the mercenaries. If a club/county can not genuinely get a inside man then they make there case to the county board/Croke Park. It will encourage more underage managers in clubs/counties because they believe if they can prove themselves there is really a chance of stepping up.

4. Club Transfers - With the improving roads and transport links no transfer will be considered for adult players that are within 80 miles of the players home clubs unless like a transfer currently within in a county the club the player is leaving signs it. Any adult player is only entitled to one transfer in a lifetime thus meaning they cannot return to there own club they started with when the cash cow of the big clubs dry up or age catches up with them.( This does not apply to international transfers ).

5. America - Anyone who decides to go to play in the states for a summer cannot play club or county football in Ireland until January of the follow year. Might stop players going for the dollar for 2 months then back in September for club championship. People will argue about the students. They can still go earn there summer money but that comes at a cost with no club to fall back to. It might be harsh on some but will stop lads announcing the morning after the county is beat they are gone and wont hang around for the qualifiers.

A lot of people will probably think these are bullsh*t ideas but I just feel the whole association needs to try something different.

And I thought communism was a thing of the past ......
I used to be indecisive but now I'm not too sure.

Farrandeelin

I agree with pbat's point 3.
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.

trueblue1234

Quote from: caprea on October 05, 2018, 12:57:59 PM
The GPA represents only inter-county players so I  don't understand what you mean

I know, But it's not they're decision as to whether the GAA put in place professionalism. That's my point. Even if the GPA say, Yeah course I'd like a few pound for playing. It would hardly be surprising.
But just because they say yes doesn't mean the GAA would have to listen to them. And if they pulled the plug on the back of it, that would be the end of county football but they would never get support for manufactured teams. That move alone would alienate them and the structure couldn't survive with the significant drop in support.

Quote from: Rossfan on October 05, 2018, 12:59:06 PM
Don't know where you come from trueblue but round here hardly any of Joe 0ublic goes to club matches :(
Why would the GPA be balloting members to dissolve County squads?

Tyrone, and club games tend to be well enough supported here. Must be the violence pulls them in.
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit

caprea

Quote from: Rossfan on October 05, 2018, 12:59:06 PM

Why would the GPA be balloting members to dissolve County squads?

The GPA don't ballot members on dissolving county squads.



What they do do however is have their members complete a survey every year where they are asked if professionalism means that there will no longer be an intercounty structure are they in favour of professionalism (GPA are savvy, the realise a 32 team structure for professionalism is an impossibility).



For now the answer has always been no but one day that no will turn into a yes and then we will likely see a ballot on strike if the GAA don't immediately agree to discussions on a professionlism.

trueblue1234

#54
Quote from: caprea on October 05, 2018, 01:44:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 05, 2018, 12:59:06 PM

Why would the GPA be balloting members to dissolve County squads?

The GPA don't ballot members on dissolving county squads.



What they do do however is have their members complete a survey every year where they are asked if professionalism means that there will no longer be an intercounty structure are they in favour of professionalism (GPA are savvy, the realise a 32 team structure for professionalism is an impossibility).



For now the answer has always been no but one day that no will turn into a yes and then we will likely see a ballot on strike if the GAA don't immediately agree to discussions on a professionlism.

That would lead to the support for the GPA from the GAA being cut (Lets be honest the only reason they were brought in-house was to keep a handle on them) and then the counties could remove the striking players from the panel and hold trials for players who wanted to be involved voluntarily. Course it'll weaken the standard but you'll still avoid professionalism.
I just don't see any way the players can force this through unless it's supported by the majority of the GAA. And I just don't see that happening. 
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit

CJ2017

Bit of a sidenote but they GPA and others should look towards what happened Cricket and Kerry Packer in the 1970's, they need a rich patron to sign up amateurs.
Of course this might never happen to the GAA.

How did he sign so many players?
At the time cricketers were appallingly paid - the Australians were in effect amateurs - and so, in Packer's own words, it was "the easiest sport in the world to take over ... nobody bothered to pay the players what they were worth".

http://www.espncricinfo.com/worldseries/content/story/323763.html



Zulu

#56
Quote from: caprea on October 05, 2018, 01:44:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 05, 2018, 12:59:06 PM

Why would the GPA be balloting members to dissolve County squads?

The GPA don't ballot members on dissolving county squads.



What they do do however is have their members complete a survey every year where they are asked if professionalism means that there will no longer be an intercounty structure are they in favour of professionalism (GPA are savvy, the realise a 32 team structure for professionalism is an impossibility).



For now the answer has always been no but one day that no will turn into a yes and then we will likely see a ballot on strike if the GAA don't immediately agree to discussions on a professionlism.

Caprea, this seems to be your hobby horse but you've never once made a cogent argument as how or why it would happen.

I see no reason why a majority of IC players would vote in favour of professionalism. I've no doubt a majority would like to be professional GAA players but why would a majority vote for it?

If the county system had to be scrapped in favour of, lets say, 10 regional professional teams then why would the majority of division 3 and 4 players or division 1 and 2 squad players vote for it when the vast majority wouldn't make a professional franchise squad? They'd basically be voting themselves out of the dance.


Why would any IC player 25 years or older vote for it? By the time the fine details were ironed out (3 years minimum) most would be at or near the end of their playing career. So they'd be striking for something they'd not get any benefit from. Can't see many lads risk their career, not to mention the unholy shit storm they'd face day to day just so some of the current minor team might make a living out of GAA.


In the event the GAA did go pro would a 27 year old doctor/accountant/engineer/business owner etc. decide to put their career on hold to go pro in the GAA? Some probably would but many wouldn't.

And even if they did go on strike, what cards would they hold?

Players: pay us or we don't play.

GAA: Right lads, don't play. Others will and if not we'll focus on clubs.

Players: We'll form our own breakaway professional GAA.

GAA: No bother lads, but you'll not have access to any pitches or GAA facilities anywhere in Ireland.

Players: Errr.....right......ahhh

There's just no leverage for the players, support from the wider GAA or the ability to sustain a professional sport here longterm.



caprea

Zulu, i guess you've made a couple of points there so I'll try and give my take on the three main ones. You make a very good point about why would the average to poor intercounty players vote themselves out of existence.

I guess I would say a couple of things:
1- it would be interesting to know how the vote currently looks in terms of favour for professionalism in the intercounty GAA players body currently.
2- the money makers for the GAA are the best of the best players, a corner back for Wicklow or number 26 on the cork panel don't make money really for the association. The first XVs for about 10 - 12 counties are the ones that create income and draw the big crowds and tv audiences. Then after that the likes of maybe 3 players for the weaker counties are at a level where they are financial assets to the association. So what you have is two bodies within the players association. One that are there to "make up the numbers" in teams that don't create income to the GAA really. And the other slightly smaller group which do create substantial income and if they were to withhold their working capital it would damage the association. In a model like this where one association (the GPA) is meant to represent the interests of a distinct group but can't because the interests of the group are too varying is it natural that eventually there will be a split in the GPA?

I think its a distinct possibility. An association like the GPA is only fit for purpose if it can represent the overwhelming interests of its members. If it can't then a breakaway of members who are the most crucial to the GAA in terms of income is possible.

3- even the players who wouldn't get professional contracts still currently have to make a big time commitment to playing intercounty, at least 20 hours a week. Given this commitment for what is essientially no reward they might not be as against professionalism as you think.

Moving on to the point about professional GAA meaning players cant make money from day jobs, another good point.

what i would say is it really depends on the length of the season of a professional league and it also depends on the salary available for pro GAA players.

The length of the professional league season if only half the year, this would allow a lot of time for players to have different flexible day jobs such as run small businesses like gyms or be part time personal trainers or GAA club trainers. It would also leave a huge amount of time to complete night courses and further education as a couple of professional rugby players are particularly accustomed to doing. Professional sports men is not a 12 month a year job like working in a office or a bank so there is still plenty of part time work and further education GAA professional players could engage in.

In terms of salary I think 60k-70k a year would have to be the level to make it a plausible option for the average elite GAA player. Maybe less. If you have 10 squads of 30 thats only 300 people earning 70k so 21 million, throw in coaches etc and you're at about 23 million. The intercounty game brings in about 50-70 million a year to central GAA already in the amateur era. It brings in more millions to individual county boards. The GAA also have to pay the GPA about 5 million a year anyway in the amateur era which they shouldn't  in a professional era so the figures, rough as they are, look conducive to professionalism.

You're third point about...to be continued

caprea

Your third point about the GAA could withstand the impact of a GAA players strike, you ask what cards do the GAA hold?

Well they hold the cards where they bring in 50-70 million a year to the central association, more millions to the county boards and provincial councils.

They bring in further millions, practically countless millions, to the economy in general. All the restaurants, pubs, hotels, petrol stations, gardai, match staff, GAA administration staff, train drivers, bus drivers and taxi drivers who get huge income from match days.

The GAA would have to lay off a huge chunk of staff because they wouldn't have the money to pay them if the players went on strike and there would be no work for them to do anyway.

So to suggest the GAA would be blaise about losing the intercounty game income is frankly a ridiculous notion.

It would become a big issue for the government never mind the GAA if the money tap from the intercounty game was turned off.

caprea

The reasons GAA will go professional are numerous but the main ones are

1- thats just how the global economy works in capitalism, income generators receive reward in line with the income they generate
2- every sport in the world works this way, to think the GAA is immune to this because its only played in ireland is nonsense. Ireland is a big economy and it will support the same economic eco system as any other global economy which means the big sports are professional sports.
3- the intercounty players always win any arguments they enter into; the cork hurlers and footballers, the Galway hurlers, the Waterford hurlers, the newbridge or nowhere. The intercounty players simply have too much economic power to ever lose any argument with GAA bureaucrats. This argument will be big and bitter when it happens but eventually the players will win because there is no show without them.