Author Topic: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017  (Read 8571 times)

mackers

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2017, 04:36:19 PM »
Ye keep equating League to championship. Ye have a mental block over that. It's already been said that because of Kerry player availability, the league in Kerry is *not* a true reflection of where a club might be.
Could that not be said in every county in Ireland?
Keep your pecker hard and your powder dry and the world will turn.

tiempo

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2017, 04:45:23 PM »
Applying the same proportions to the Tyrone Championship would result in a tired system across the 48 clubs where:

SFC - 14% of clubs, lets say 8
IFC - 28% of clubs, lets say 12
JFC - 28% of clubs, lets say 12
"Novice" - 31% of clubs, lets say 16

This approach could leave Carrickmore playing Intermediate, Moy playing Junior and Tattyreagh playing at no discernible level (makey uppey level).

The issue is in terms of the provincial and All-Ireland club series is not everyone else, its Kerry.
Look at the breakdown above, and note the term clubs.
The divisional approach in Kerry is being used to cloud the issue, they are not clubs. Congratulations to everyone for getting along and all that but it is the equivalent of a combined Antrim/Louth/Leitrim select entering Leinster, a nonsense.

Kerry need to be pulled on this and align their leagues to championship, ensure a greater spread of clubs across the 3 grades, and give access to all clubs to win a meaningful county title at their correct level, not this 22 point facile Provincial Intermediate winning chuff.

Going back to the year Derrytresk got to the All-Ireland Final, under a Kerry based system they wouldn't have had access to the JFC or provincial or All-Ireland JFC - and that to me is wrong. The All-Irelands especially at those grades highlight some of the most heart-warming success stories every year in hurling and football, and clubs should not be denied their chance to access these competitions or having made it successfully out of their county come up against a "seeded" Kerry juggernaut. Though as you'll see from time to time, when the Kerry team does come up short in the Provincials or All-Ireland e.g. Dromid v Derrytresk, then the mask slips, not too keen on having it put up to them.

People who claim its not a concerted effort of trying to pick up All-Irelands at this level are talking out their backside. As mentioned previously football in Kerry is geared to the County team and getting young lads any additional Croke Park experience is all they care about (note their Junior County All-Ireland success of late too - full of lads in their early 20s with multiple All-Ireland minor winners taking lead roles).

Hopefully this can be sorted out before too many more teams suffer 22 point Provincial final defeats.

AZOffaly

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2017, 04:52:15 PM »
Ye keep equating League to championship. Ye have a mental block over that. It's already been said that because of Kerry player availability, the league in Kerry is *not* a true reflection of where a club might be.
Could that not be said in every county in Ireland?

Yes, which is why I'm wondering why people are placing such emphasis on the division An ghealteacht play in, for example. As far as I can see, the problem is not which division Ghealteacht are in, it's the fact that they are the 9th best club side in Kerry (Championship wise) and therefore should not be classed as intermediate. I suppose that's debatable, but the fact of the matter is this is how Kerry always have done it. Before ever there was a Munster or All Ireland Intermediate Championship.  If the argument is that Kerry have too few Senior Clubs, well I'm sorry, I disagree. In my view a lot of other counties have too *Many* senior clubs. This approach works for Kerry, and now that Offaly have followed suit, by and large, with 8 Senior and 8 Senior B (who enter the intermediate championship) and our Intermediate Champions in the Junior Championship I hope that the Offaly senior team benefits from a Senior Championship of a higher standard eventually.

I understand the skepticism, and I can see why people are saying it's unfair that the 9th best team in Kerry is playing the 17th best team in Limerick or whatever, but to be honest I don't think it's Kerry's problem. Maybe an argument could be made that the Intermediate Championship in Kerry is renamed a Senior 'B' Championship, and the winners are not entitled to play in Munster. Rename Premier Junior to Intermediate etc but I'm not sure that's the way to go either. Put it like this, Dromid were a long way away from being dominant against Naomh Eoin above in Clare or Galtee Gaels in the Munster Semi Final, and they are not going to hammer Knocknagree either.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 05:03:08 PM by AZOffaly »

westbound

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2017, 05:02:36 PM »
How many counties link league and championship?

Secondly, do people really think that the Kerry system is designed to win more junior and intermediate titles? Explain to me then, why the system was implemented in Kerry BEFORE the AI junior and intermediate were set up.

Thirdly, there is NOTHING to stop any or all other counties changing their systems to whatever they like. If the Kerry system is so advantageous, then why not change your own system.

I'm not from Kerry, nor have any affiliation to Kerry. But people are always looking for others to blame. Sometimes we need to look at what we can do for ourselves!

Redhand Santa

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2017, 05:20:48 PM »
I don't think the Kerry system is set up to give more intermediate/junior winners but the way they do it definitely gives an unfair advantage over other counties.

Their intermediate winner is effectively a senior team and their junior winner an intermediate team.

The fairest way therefore to solve the issue would be for their senior champs to play in the senior championship, their premier junior champs to play in the intermediate and their junior champs to play in the junior. The only issue would be their intermediate winners then wouldn't get chance to play at provincial level. It could be argued that the 9th best senior team isn't in other counties don't either.

The split above would mean 24 teams effectively senior 16 intermediate and 18 junior. Seems a lot fairer than what they currently do.

general_lee

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2017, 06:31:32 PM »
It really is a sad state of affairs that counties are opting for an 8 team senior championship. Stinks of elitism. Pomeroy tore up the 16-team Tyrone SFC this year straight up out of Intermediate, Trillick before them came up out of nowhere to win the thing! No system is perfect and different counties have different requirements but the Kerry set up is skewered and not a fair reflection. People saying that leagues and championship donít marry up but a quick look at the county website Division 1 seems to have all the traditionally stronger clubs? Player availability doesnít wash for me itís the same in every county. The cream rises to the top regardless

twohands!!!

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #96 on: November 30, 2017, 08:02:33 PM »

If the argument is that Kerry have too few Senior Clubs, well I'm sorry, I disagree. In my view a lot of other counties have too *Many* senior clubs. This approach works for Kerry, and now that Offaly have followed suit, by and large, with 8 Senior and 8 Senior B (who enter the intermediate championship) and our Intermediate Champions in the Junior Championship I hope that the Offaly senior team benefits from a Senior Championship of a higher standard eventually.

Put it like this, Dromid were a long way away from being dominant against Naomh Eoin above in Clare or Galtee Gaels in the Munster Semi Final, and they are not going to hammer Knocknagree either.

In total agreement, far too many counties have way too many senior teams.

In Kerry you have to work hard to be a senior team and to stay a senior team, which drives standards.

Just checked the scorelines line and Dromid won both their games against the Clare and Limerick Junior representatives by 4 points.


omaghjoe

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #97 on: November 30, 2017, 08:20:34 PM »
In terms of the teams that are going to win the SFC in Tyrone realistically there are only about 8 or 10. Its very competitive among those but outside of them no one else has a hope apart from a one off game. As I write that tho im thinking would I include Pomeroy in that (this years semi finalist)?

The point is I like Kerry's system but when its equated onto the AI clubs its not a level playing field for other counties Its not up to Kerry to sort it out tho...

imtommygunn

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #98 on: November 30, 2017, 08:28:57 PM »
"only" 8 or 10?

omaghjoe

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #99 on: November 30, 2017, 09:41:10 PM »
"only" 8 or 10?

Yes only as opposed to the 16 that are in it
The rest arent really competitive so in way its similar to Kerry

imtommygunn

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Re: Ulster JFC/IFC Club 2017
« Reply #100 on: November 30, 2017, 09:44:57 PM »
Most counties wouldn't have more than 2 or 3 capable of winning.