Kerry v Mayo - Super 8s Round 1

Started by Mayo4Sam14, July 07, 2019, 10:23:19 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

blast05

#225
Quote
On a different note, I think it's very wide of the mark to criticise David Clarke for the team's failings.
If his kickouts were being won by Kerry players it's because no Mayo half back or midfielder was showing for them. If Cluxton or Rory Beggan has been taking the kickouts on Sunday they's have no better luck.
Anyway, if there is a problem with Clarke's restarting, why not get somebody else? There's no law, ASAIK, that says a goalie must kick the ball out.

Lars, those comments demonstrate a very poor understanding of how the game is played.

Put simply - Clarkes doesn't have a driver in the bag. He goes from a wedge to about a 5 iron.
Every keeper at this level needs to have a driver in the bag, i.e.: to be able to kick the ball 70+ metres at a relatively low trajectory if needed. Clarke can do about 50 metres but lofted. The Kerry half back line were fully primed for this whereby they pushed far up the field on his kickouts. The dynamic would have been completely different if they thought there was a chance of the kickout going 20 metres further.

Yes, this limitation has always been an extra challenge for us on our kickouts for years, but we have managed to workaround it up to now as no team has ever played a full press against us (bar Dublin in the league couple of years ago in Croke Park) and ensured each position was occupied when the kickout was being taken, i.e.: first fill their position on the pitch for the kickout and only move out of that position if you must.

Clarke is the GOAT when it comes to shot stopping, dominating the square and penalties. But our minor keeper even has a bigger and better boot on him.
Of course Kerrys intensity versus ours was a factor in contesting kickouts. But the cat is out of the bag now though .... i would be shocked if Meath didn't try something similar at the weekend.

As far someone else taking the kickouts .... i can only conclude that you just stepped out of a time machine or are a wind-up merchant!!

Lar Naparka

#226
Quote from: blast05 on July 16, 2019, 02:42:48 PM
Quote
On a different note, I think it's very wide of the mark to criticise David Clarke for the team's failings.
If his kickouts were being won by Kerry players it's because no Mayo half back or midfielder was showing for them. If Cluxton or Rory Beggan has been taking the kickouts on Sunday they's have no better luck.
Anyway, if there is a problem with Clarke's restarting, why not get somebody else? There's no law, ASAIK, that says a goalie must kick the ball out.

Lars, those comments demonstrate a very poor understanding of how the game is played.


Put simply - Clarkes doesn't have a driver in the bag. He goes from a wedge to about a 5 iron.
Every keeper at this level needs to have a driver in the bag, i.e.: to be able to kick the ball 70+ metres at a relatively low trajectory if needed. Clarke can do about 50 metres but lofted. The Kerry half back line were fully primed for this whereby they pushed far up the field on his kickouts. The dynamic would have been completely different if they thought there was a chance of the kickout going 20 metres further.

Yes, this limitation has always been an extra challenge for us on our kickouts for years, but we have managed to workaround it up to now as no team has ever played a full press against us (bar Dublin in the league couple of years ago in Croke Park) and ensured each position was occupied when the kickout was being taken, i.e.: first fill their position on the pitch for the kickout and only move out of that position if you must.

Clarke is the GOAT when it comes to shot stopping, dominating the square and penalties. But our minor keeper even has a bigger and better boot on him.
Of course Kerrys intensity versus ours was a factor in contesting kickouts. But the cat is out of the bag now though .... i would be shocked if Meath didn't try something similar at the weekend.

As far someone else taking the kickouts .... i can only conclude that you just stepped out of a time machine or are a wind-up merchant!!

Is that so??
Mind telling me why. I explained in eejit-proof language that there was a time when goalies did not take kickouts  and life went on as normal or all concerned.
I am perfectly satisfied with my understanding of the way the game is played and, believe it or no, I know goalkeepers take restarts nowadays but I see no reason why it's compulsory. Maybe you know more than I do.
I mentioned that no other man in Clarke's place could have done a better job when outfield players weren't contesting the restarts.
I don't think you need a Ph. D. in cop-on to realise that but that's just my  opinion and maybe I don't have your grasp of what anyone else  could see happening ought on the field. David Clarke's kickouts were not the cause of the very high amount of unenforced errors that were happening throughout the field but maybe you see a different game than I did.
In my simple understanding of a goalie's duties commanding the goal area is the first every time. Can't recall  Clarke dropping a ball or handing it straight to the nearest Kerry player either.
I don't think anyone else, except you obviously, would be confident of Hennelly not makiong a howler or two during a game. It's happened enough times for anyone with a basic memory to be aware of it. 
I'm happy with my understanding of the modern game and most tell me I have a bit of cop-on also.
Maybe not a lot but I think I have enough to see that you don't have either.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

J70

Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 16, 2019, 09:36:09 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 16, 2019, 12:01:58 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 15, 2019, 04:46:39 PM
Quote from: Tatler Jack on July 15, 2019, 03:42:55 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 08, 2019, 01:41:06 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 08, 2019, 01:13:52 AM
Quote from: moysider on July 08, 2019, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on July 07, 2019, 11:45:12 PM
Tonight Sean Cavanagh and Malachy O'Rourke on the Sunday game tipped Mayo to win in Killarney and to join Donegal in the semi final. Pat Spillane couldn't bring himself to do likewise using if they were to win next Sunday but knows full well that Kerry are poor in defence,midfield and are a poor physical match for Mayo.

I dunno. Mayo invite everybody to dance with them. Everybody knows that.

Like last few weeks they probably made Down and Armagh feel better than they have in years. Galway persisted in Limerick even when 8 points down because they knew they would get some sympathy. If they were 8 down to Tyrone. Dublin, Donegal or Kerry, they would have gone home for their tea.

Mayo would have given Clare and Laois the time of their lives as well. That's what we do. We would have let Cork have a run on us and they would have finished us.

Now we are in Super8s, anything can happen.
We've lost a few players and we've found a few. The 'miles on the clock' theory is bullshit of course.
It's about form now and making good decisions. At least Horan put out his most practical set up I remember in Limerick. If he did that v Roscommon this odyssey could have been avoided. On the other hand .........

We ve had a few forwards come along that if they were from some other counties that I wont mention, would be nadwek over.

Mayo have 3 wins in a row under their belts now, doesn't matter how they were achieved as winning them was the main thing and that will be the same down in Killarney next Sunday. Do you think anyone will care in the Mayo camp if they are leading that game by 10 points with 5 minutes to go and only win by 1 point?
I know but they are riding their luck and sooner or later this is gonna end in tears. Fact is they should bate Kerry half way up Carrantouhill but will they though? This worrying trend of losing the plot and letting inferior teams back int the game when they should be closing the game down is becoming ingrained at this stage if the season and will probably happen again on Sunday. They were good enough o beat every team they met  by at least 4 or 5 points since the last game against Kerry down in Tralee and barely survived all but one. That one they lost to Roscommon and that defeat is the cause of Mayo having to play three extra games to get where they are now. Having finally shook the Galway monkey offa their backs and having beaten Kerry twice already this year, I expect Mayo to be at least 5 points the better side but I won't be easy no matter what until the gate is locked up and every one has gone home!

Had you a few drinks when you wrote this Lar or just lost the run of yourself with your eloquence? Bating Kerry half way up Carrauntoohill! Not even the most fervent Dubs supporter would have such notions. Bit of a reality check and a few Carrauntoohills in front of ye.
Yes I know, I know! ;D
But read the last four words you bolded and you'll see what I was getting at...."but will they though"
I also aid I'd expect Mayo to win by  at least five points but I wouldn't be easy until the game was well and truly over or something like that.
I wasn't being arrogant here but only pointing out that Mayo were  apt to do anything and were totally inconsistent. They had already met Kerry twice this year and had dominated both games but should have won both by a lot more than they did. If any other top team had been in Mayo's position in either league game they'd be no doubt about the result by half time. AS it was Mayo could have lost either game or won it by a few points more.
Going into the game on Sunday, Mayo should have been clear favourites if you were going on form alone yet I would not say there were many Mayo people who'd bet good money on the result.

I for one feared for us in Killarney but I went and was enjoying the day until the game started.
We were wiped out and for a top tier experienced team, humiliated. No nice way of dressing this up. No other serious team would have been 'bitch slapped' like that. A Kerry schoolboy team would not be trampled like that in McHale Park. It was painful to watch. But, guess what? As far as I could see our players were trying really hard. Fatigue was not a factor. Older lads like Boyle, Higgins and a still not up to speed Vaughan lasted the trip. Laughably Boyle was thought to be through 2 years ago. Realistically we need to get at least 2 more years out of Boyle and Higgins but if they walk away at the end of this campaign they owe nobody nothing. We are unlikely to see the likes of them again anytime soon.
Most disappointingly our promising younger players were hauled off. Kerry young fellas were flying. Why? Fatigue was not an issue imo.
I think so too and that's what worries me the most. I don't think anyone was holding back and not giving 100% but the fluency and mutual understanding that we were used to was missing. The entire team seemed to be just going through the motions, as it were. I said back around the time of the Roscommon that we don't have a happy camp.
I haven't heard any rumours about dissension in the camp and I certainly don't want to start any either but there's something not quite right inn the set up. If I was a betting man I'd say that there are selection or tactics issues but that only a personal feeling, not a fact. On a different note, I think it's very wide of the mark to criticise David Clarke for the team's failings.
If his kickouts were being won by Kerry players it's because no Mayo half back or midfielder was showing for them. If Cluxton or Rory Beggan has been taking the kickouts on Sunday they's have no better luck.
Anyway, if there is a problem with Clarke's restarting, why not get somebody else? There's no law, ASAIK, that says a goalie must kick the ball out.
There was a time when one of the full back line did that and I don't recall any goalie taking on the job back then.
I may be wrong but I believe Stephen Cluxton started the habit and now every buck between the sticks has to do the same. He may not have been the first to do so but he was the first goalie to take 45s and long range frees and now almost everyone else is doing the same.

Keeper taking the kick outs long predated Cluxton.

John O'Leary took them. Gary Walsh for Donegal. I'd say you'd have to go back to the early eighties or even seventies for it being a typical full back job.

blast05

Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 16, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
Is that so??
Mind telling me why. I explained in eejit-proof language that there was a time when goalies did not take kickouts  and life went on as normal or all concerned.
I am perfectly satisfied with my understanding of the way the game is played and, believe it or no, I know goalkeepers take restarts nowadays but I see no reason why it's compulsory. Maybe you know more than I do.
I mentioned that no other man in Clarke's place could have done a better job when outfield players weren't contesting the restarts.
I don't think you need a Ph. D. in cop-on to realise that but that's just my  opinion and maybe I don't have your grasp of what anyone else  could see happening ought on the field. David Clarke's kickouts were not the cause of the very high amount of unenforced errors that were happening throughout the field but maybe you see a different game than I did.
In my simple understanding of a goalie's duties commanding the goal area is the first every time. Can't recall  Clarke dropping a ball or handing it straight to the nearest Kerry player either.
I don't think anyone else, except you obviously, would be confident of Hennelly not makiong a howler or two during a game. It's happened enough times for anyone with a basic memory to be aware of it. 
I'm happy with my understanding of the modern game and most tell me I have a bit of cop-on also.
Maybe not a lot but I think I have enough to see that you don't have either.

As the name of the coming-of-age book goes ... "That was then, this is now."
A corner or fullback taking a kickout with the keeper stuck on his line might have been fine and well in the 60's. That was when the overall athleticism of the average inter-county players and tactical nous were light years behind where we are now. Put simply, every kickout would have to be a long hoof with a certainty that the opposition would have an extra man competing for the breaking ball.

And i have never suggested Hennelly is infallible. Albeit it was the width of the cross bar that separate Clarkes kickout straight to a Kerry man versus Hennellys that went straight to a Rossie. Indeed, i am not even suggesting a change.
But like it or lump it, the tone was set by our kickouts not having the driver in the bag to wallop it to change the dynamic out the field.

Anyway, its good to see you defending a Mayo player ... not like the time i engaged with you on here when you were attacking Cillian O'Connor

imtommygunn

You'd be hard pressed to name a county team in the 90s where it wasn't the keeper took the kickouts. Even the 80s and to be honest maybe 70s. I only remember me taking them at minor because no one would do nets so we stuck a boy in who couldn't kick a ball lol.

Accuracy of kick out trumps shot stopping abilities these days. (probably by quite a bit)

galwayman

Quote from: imtommygunn on July 16, 2019, 04:48:04 PM
You'd be hard pressed to name a county team in the 90s where it wasn't the keeper took the kickouts. Even the 80s and to be honest maybe 70s. I only remember me taking them at minor because no one would do nets so we stuck a boy in who couldn't kick a ball lol.

Accuracy of kick out trumps shot stopping abilities these days. (probably by quite a bit)
I don't ever remember any Galway outfield player taking kickouts anyway and I'm going to Galway games since the late 80s.
You're probably talking the 70s at the earliest.
Do you propose that the goalie runs outfield for every kickout to make himself available for a short one?
Risky business. And if not - your team are a man short in terms of contesting it.
Kicking ability in the modern game has moved to the top of the tree (or certainly very close) in terms of prerequisites for a goalkeeper.

Lar Naparka

Quote from: blast05 on July 16, 2019, 03:50:14 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 16, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
Is that so??
Mind telling me why. I explained in eejit-proof language that there was a time when goalies did not take kickouts  and life went on as normal or all concerned.
I am perfectly satisfied with my understanding of the way the game is played and, believe it or no, I know goalkeepers take restarts nowadays but I see no reason why it's compulsory. Maybe you know more than I do.
I mentioned that no other man in Clarke's place could have done a better job when outfield players weren't contesting the restarts.
I don't think you need a Ph. D. in cop-on to realise that but that's just my  opinion and maybe I don't have your grasp of what anyone else  could see happening ought on the field. David Clarke's kickouts were not the cause of the very high amount of unenforced errors that were happening throughout the field but maybe you see a different game than I did.
In my simple understanding of a goalie's duties commanding the goal area is the first every time. Can't recall  Clarke dropping a ball or handing it straight to the nearest Kerry player either.
I don't think anyone else, except you obviously, would be confident of Hennelly not makiong a howler or two during a game. It's happened enough times for anyone with a basic memory to be aware of it. 
I'm happy with my understanding of the modern game and most tell me I have a bit of cop-on also.
Maybe not a lot but I think I have enough to see that you don't have either.

As the name of the coming-of-age book goes ... "That was then, this is now."
A corner or fullback taking a kickout with the keeper stuck on his line might have been fine and well in the 60's. That was when the overall athleticism of the average inter-county players and tactical nous were light years behind where we are now. Put simply, every kickout would have to be a long hoof with a certainty that the opposition would have an extra man competing for the breaking ball.

And i have never suggested Hennelly is infallible. Albeit it was the width of the cross bar that separate Clarkes kickout straight to a Kerry man versus Hennellys that went straight to a Rossie. Indeed, i am not even suggesting a change.
But like it or lump it, the tone was set by our kickouts not having the driver in the bag to wallop it to change the dynamic out the field.

Anyway, its good to see you defending a Mayo player ... not like the time i engaged with you on here when you were attacking Cillian O'Connor
Back then you failed to read what I had  been saying and you've done the same now.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Rossfan

The rhubarbs are getting cranky with each other :D
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Ball Hopper

 Paud O'Donoghue at full back took Kerry's kick outs right up to his last game in 1973.

The following year, 1974, goalkeeper Paudie O'Mahony became the first Kerry goalkeeper to take kickouts.

Paddy Cullen was taking them for Dublin in 1974.  I cannot recall when Billy Morgan started taking them for Cork.

macdanger2

Quote from: weareros on July 16, 2019, 11:48:43 AM
[Not unlike Clark's which are tailor made for a Willie Joe and a David Moran. I mentioned here after Roscommon game that this would happen when Clark replaced Hennelly and ye would not listen.

I've seen this written in several places, can someone explain to me how it was different for AOS and Moran catching the ball based on the trajectory?

imtommygunn

Quote from: galwayman on July 16, 2019, 05:02:31 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 16, 2019, 04:48:04 PM
You'd be hard pressed to name a county team in the 90s where it wasn't the keeper took the kickouts. Even the 80s and to be honest maybe 70s. I only remember me taking them at minor because no one would do nets so we stuck a boy in who couldn't kick a ball lol.

Accuracy of kick out trumps shot stopping abilities these days. (probably by quite a bit)
I don't ever remember any Galway outfield player taking kickouts anyway and I'm going to Galway games since the late 80s.
You're probably talking the 70s at the earliest.
Do you propose that the goalie runs outfield for every kickout to make himself available for a short one?
Risky business. And if not - your team are a man short in terms of contesting it.
Kicking ability in the modern game has moved to the top of the tree (or certainly very close) in terms of prerequisites for a goalkeeper.

No I don't propose anything. It's a ridiculous discussion lol.

Yeah I agree. Kick accuracy key attribute in a keeper. It trumps shot stopping. Is that not how galligan ended up in nets for Cavan?

macdanger2

Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 14, 2019, 08:58:01 PM
Quote from: Angelo on July 14, 2019, 08:13:25 PM
Kerry were very good but I think Mayo really felt the loss of Diarmuid O'Connor, Durcan and Ruane and they lost that running power around the middle that Kerry struggle to live with.

I thought the lack of pace inside for Mayo was a problem, Coen and O'Connor are good finishers but they struggled to win the ball kicked in.

Other than that, they were bet up a stick at midfield, destroyed on kickouts and their tackling was extremely poor.

Hurson is another one of those refs who is too busy looking for off the ball things rather than following the play.

Stephen O'Brien, Moran and Clifford seemed to be the pick of the Kerry players.

Three players that played in the defeat to Roscommon.

The difference however is that we lost the Roscommon game up front but we lost the kerry game primarily around the middle

moysider

#237
Anybody kicking the ball out bar the goalkeeper is a no-no for a couple of reasons.

1. Most outfield players cannot kick the ball from the ground at all. Keepers are called up the field to kick 45s etc. for a reason. They are the only ones that can strike a dead ball. On the Mayo team Cillian struggles to kick a 45 sometimes and I doubt any of our backs would even go close to getting that far. Are we suggesting O Connor is brought back to take kick-outs?

2. If an outfield player takes kickouts, it frees up an opposition forward to increase the press-up or get deeper and contest breaks. It's not going to work.

Clarke can kick the ball long but while the trajectory might not be torpedo he can hoof it. He was trying to pick out targets within his range the last day and I've no doubt that was what he was instructed to do. No way a goalkeeper takes it on himself to decide his kick out strategy.

We had a Kerry runner on the field a lot the last day. I didn't see anybody from Mayo set-up get to Clarke to advise him to do anything different and for God's sake. stop rushing up to take quick kick-outs when we were under the cosh and beaten up a stick. I stand over the arms folded remark I made earlier.  You have to manage the game in front of you.

You'd have to go back almost 50 years for somebody other than goalie to kick the ball out - unless the keeper had an injury. Now you replace the keeper. Maybe Jack Cosgrave from Galway did it but that is early 70s and the game was different. You'd be riddled if you did that now.

moysider

Quote from: macdanger2 on July 16, 2019, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: weareros on July 16, 2019, 11:48:43 AM
[Not unlike Clark's which are tailor made for a Willie Joe and a David Moran. I mentioned here after Roscommon game that this would happen when Clark replaced Hennelly and ye would not listen.

I've seen this written in several places, can someone explain to me how it was different for AOS and Moran catching the ball based on the trajectory?

Simple. AOS is injured but has to play - same as Keegan. No other serviceable midfielder available. Remember a year+ ago a fit Aidan would be 11 in front of Seamie and Parsons. No brainier for Kerry to press up, knowing they would win the longer ones all day long.
Kerry have Donie Buckley there now and knows the strengths and limitations of this Mayo team better than anybody. Vaughan has been injured and as a defender he is not up to speed for chasing. So you run at him. You also run at Stephen Coen who just does not have the gas. The Mayo inside forwards don't have the pace either to win ball in front consistently under pressure. It was a perfect storm for Kerry and Mayo, but with different result obviously. 

macdanger2

Quote from: moysider on July 17, 2019, 02:21:01 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 16, 2019, 08:10:34 PM
Quote from: weareros on July 16, 2019, 11:48:43 AM
[Not unlike Clark's which are tailor made for a Willie Joe and a David Moran. I mentioned here after Roscommon game that this would happen when Clark replaced Hennelly and ye would not listen.

I've seen this written in several places, can someone explain to me how it was different for AOS and Moran catching the ball based on the trajectory?

Simple. AOS is injured but has to play - same as Keegan. No other serviceable midfielder available. Remember a year+ ago a fit Aidan would be 11 in front of Seamie and Parsons. No brainier for Kerry to press up, knowing they would win the longer ones all day long.
Kerry have Donie Buckley there now and knows the strengths and limitations of this Mayo team better than anybody. Vaughan has been injured and as a defender he is not up to speed for chasing. So you run at him. You also run at Stephen Coen who just does not have the gas. The Mayo inside forwards don't have the pace either to win ball in front consistently under pressure. It was a perfect storm for Kerry and Mayo, but with different result obviously.

Fair enough but nothing whatsoever to do with Clarke's kickouts other than the length of them although considering Vaughan was getting outfielded by Stephen O'brien, I'm not sure Hennelly's longer kick would have fared much better