Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race

[Angelo]

Also before I go.

Tell me which of these "real top-level forwards capable of surviving on scraps", use their extraordinary abilities to out score O'Connor from play. Just the corner forwards please, so we can compare like for like.

I could easily give you a list of about 20-30 players currently playing who would easily out perform O'Connor if they were both fed on scraps.

It's pretty pointless though when you are just going to keep referring back to a statistic without any debate on context.

[Angelo]

Whether your opinion of Cillian O'Connor is favourable or unfavourable I don't think there is much argument around his scoring statistics, you can't hold the quality of his team-mates against him and even if you consider that he is just a functional player and not an aesthetically pleasing flair one, a score is a score, this talk of "handy ones" is absolute nonsense, Mayo have gone long into the season in a good number of years while he has been in the team and have played all the top teams of their era.

I would admit that I am not a fan of O'Connor at all myself (it would be hard for me to even think of a player I dislike more) given the current Galway/Mayo dynamic and his antics on the pitch but it's simply churlish to try and knock him for what he is actually good at which is scoring heavily. If Mayo had knocked off a couple of AI titles in (say in 2013 and 2016 for arguments sake) when they had excellent chances then I think the narrative would be very different here.

His scoring record is what it is.

But of course you can hold the quality of his team mates, the style of football that Mayo - otherwise you're just encouraging lazy analysis where you look at the scorers on the newspaper report and make your judgement.

I've seen O'Connor play live a number of times and it has reinforced my views on him - he doesn't show for the ball, he's not strong enough off his left side, for a big guy he's not a particularly great ball winner and he lacks pace. I'll give him his dues in that he's a good finisher and he works hard defending from the front (but gets away with a lot of nonsense too). But he has severe limitations and there's no way he gets anywhere close to those scoring stats playing for any other county in the country. In fact a good few of the top teams he'd struggle to make as they have free takers as better, as good as or close enough to being as good that the difference is negligible when you consider what extra the alternatives can give you from play.

I don't think O'Connor would get on the Armagh team right now when you look at some of their forwards. The likes of Grimely, O'Neill and Grugan are probably every bit as good of free takers as O'Connor is and offer you far more from play, then you have the likes of Clarke, Murnin, Campbell, Rafferty, Hall and Turbitt there too.

This assertion is as absurd as this Galway man having to defend the actual facts around his scoring record, those Armagh lads have never even played in matches of the magnitude that O'Connor has, much less have the scoring record in those to match.

I've also just realised you're the same lad who tried to argue here against the actual video evidence that was there for anyone with a set of eyes to see with respect to the red card Kieran McGeary got in the league match in Tuam. If there can be no agreement even on the facts as they are to hand to debate around then what's the point. You are either on the wind up or haven't a clue. I'm out.

Those Armagh lads never played with two FOTY and multiple all star winners either so if you are contradicting yourself there.

[MayoBuck]

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.




Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.

You're waffling about a statistic and ignoring the context.

The likes of 3-09 in a 20+ point drubbing of Limerick in a qualifier or 3-03 in a 20+ drubbing of London in a Connacht final, 1-07 in a 20+ point drubbing of Sligo in a Connacht final or 3-04 in a 20+ drubbing of Donegal in an All Ireland QF needs context.

Context is need to explain the 0-01 that comes from a tap over point 20 yards in front of the posts and the 0-1 that comes from beating two men to a ball out around the 45 yard line, taking a number of hits before hitting a score from an acute angle from the sideline off your weaker foot.

He also got 1-9 in a game against Dublin, should we exclude that too?

[Angelo]

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Of course it is. I have Muldoon and Lynch making 54 C'ship appearance for Derry. Muldoon did play out field a bit, but was regularly used as FF, as he was when Derry got to the AI semifinals in 2001 & 2004.

I have O'Connor on 55 appearances (one more than Lar accounted, but we'll not fall out over that)

The following players have made more than 55 C'ship appearances:
Gooch - 85
John Doyle - 67
Murphy - 67
B Brogan - 66
P Joyce - 60
McDonnell - 62
McManus - 57
S O'Neill - 65
Mulligan - 61
Coulter - 58

Quite a few of those were predominantly inside forwards and the go to men on the dominant team, as well as hitting frees.  A few of them have multiple All-Ireland titles. Some have one. Only Doyle, McManus and Coulter are without.

And if we are applying the logic of discounting large individual scores against "weaker" opposition, then the same should be applied to all players.
Eg Dean Rock scored 1-11 against Roscommon last year(?) That's gone.
The 3-04 McDonnell scored against Limerick in 2003
The 3-04 A O'Shea scored against Sligo in 2015

I think we should set up and panel to decide which scores count and which do not.

Comparing Stevie McDonnell with O'Connor.

Behave.

McDonnell was the focal point of that Armagh team, the go to man, hit the ball into him he will win it. It doesn't matter who was on him, low or high, right  side of left side. McDonnell was the epitome of what a top class forward was and is. The difference between him and O'Connor is absolute night and day and McDonnell had McConville taking the frees for the vast majority of his Armagh career.

O'Connor is the proxy scorer for all the brilliant work done from the likes of Keegan, Higgins, Parsons, Boyle, his brother, Doherty etc.

That's the difference you just can't seem to get your head around - O'Connor is just far too limited as a forward to ever be considered a focal point for a team, a man where everything goes through - he's a million miles off a Murphy, a Canavan, a McDonnell, a McManus. He struggles to win his own ball, he doesn't not have the power or pace to torment his marker. He doesn't have the skill or inventiveness to make that extra yard of space or extra few seconds on the ball for himself.

As a man marker you can read O'Connor, you know he's going to struggle to outpace you, outpower you, you know he doesn't have his left side, you know he doesn't have that natural flair to sell you a dummy, a shimmy or a feint. The issues for most defenders O'Connor has faced is how they cope with the extra men coming through. Do they stick with O'Connor who is a deadly finisher when given the time and space or do they go and deal with the extra bodies Mayo have coming through the middle at ferocious pace.

O'Connor would not come close to replicating his scoring records for any other county than Mayo.

[Angelo]

In fairness, 120pts from play, in Championship football puts him ahead of many others in the scoring charts. With just his scores from play he'd be ahead of many players total scores. Examples - Derry's Mark Lynch and Enda Muldoon. Ahead of Martin McHugh, D Connolly, D O'Sullivan and Tompkins.  Another 15 points from play and he'd overtake the totals of Mugsy, Coulter, Thomas Freeman, B Devenney, Enda Gormley and Paul Barden - and a good few of those got the bulk of their scores from frees.

A lot of those guys were half forwards and part time free takers and never took penalties playing for teams who did not dominate opposition quite like Mayo have.

Muldoon for example played a lot of football at midfield and probably played less Championship games in his career than O'Connor has to date.

Context is extremely important.

Context is extremely important?

It was almost 30 years between Mikey Sheehy retiring and Colm Cooper taking on the mantle of highest scorer in championship history. O'Connor pulled away from both at the age of 27. None of the all time greats have come close to matching him.



COC has played almost his entire county career in the era of the blanket defence. Don't try to tell me Football didn't change in 2012 with Jimmy winning matches. Every attacking player has a shield in front of them that the likes of Canavan, Joyce, Bradley, Fitzgerald, McConville never endured and the likes of Cooper and Brogan encountered only in their autumnal years.


That he has scored more than some half forwards who hit frees sometimes isn't the context. That he has outscored every forward in the history of the game is the actual context.




Context cannot be made so narrow that it only applies when you want it to, you clampet.

You're waffling about a statistic and ignoring the context.

The likes of 3-09 in a 20+ point drubbing of Limerick in a qualifier or 3-03 in a 20+ drubbing of London in a Connacht final, 1-07 in a 20+ point drubbing of Sligo in a Connacht final or 3-04 in a 20+ drubbing of Donegal in an All Ireland QF needs context.

Context is need to explain the 0-01 that comes from a tap over point 20 yards in front of the posts and the 0-1 that comes from beating two men to a ball out around the 45 yard line, taking a number of hits before hitting a score from an acute angle from the sideline off your weaker foot.

He also got 1-9 in a game against Dublin, should we exclude that too?

How many of those points did he engineer himself and how many were made from the work of Higgins, Moran, Keegan et al

[Gael85]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

[Gael85]

Mayo defenders has some scoring record.

Lee Keegan scored 7-43 in 54 championship games.
Paddy Durcan 0-32 in 33 games.
Donie Vaughan 2-21 in 58 games.
Colm Boyle 1-14 in 55 games
Keith Higgins 1-13 in 74 games.

[rosnarun]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian’s scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe’s blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes….

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

if they do They will deserve it .
and lets hope every can find it n they hearts to credit them for it , unlike the reaction to Cillain Just because he can look after himself
in fact one of the biggest barriers they will face  is each other .

[Cunny Funt]

Mayo defenders has some scoring record.

Lee Keegan scored 7-43 in 54 championship games.
Paddy Durcan 0-32 in 33 games.
Donie Vaughan 2-21 in 58 games.
Colm Boyle 1-14 in 55 games
Keith Higgins 1-13 in 74 games.

When Mayo were at their peak 2013-2017 the best all round footballers and leaders on the team was Boyle, Higgins and Keegan. Right now Paddy Durcan is agurably the best footballer they have but he's playing in a side with less leadership and quality than the aforementioned years.

[JoG2]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

Yeah, serious return, but he's no Dazzler McCurry 

[Maroon Manc]

Mayo defenders has some scoring record.

Lee Keegan scored 7-43 in 54 championship games.
Paddy Durcan 0-32 in 33 games.
Donie Vaughan 2-21 in 58 games.
Colm Boyle 1-14 in 55 games
Keith Higgins 1-13 in 74 games.

Keegan is something else and his record is that more impressive considering he'd be usually marking the oppositions best forward. Mayo have scored 3 goals in finals the last decade and he's got 2 of them, the best Mayo player I've seen.

[Angelo]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

Yeah, serious return, but he's no Dazzler McCurry 

Oh look, a Derry man itching to satisfy that chip on his shoulder.

Highly unlikely anyone will get close to O'Connor's record as nobody will quite get an ecosystem quite like O'Connor has had with Mayo to harvest handy scores.

[Angelo]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

if they do They will deserve it .
and lets hope every can find it n they hearts to credit them for it , unlike the reaction to Cillain Just because he can look after himself
in fact one of the biggest barriers they will face  is each other .

I have no issue with O'Connor being able to look after himself. He just happens to be a fairly limited player who has benefited from being handed a free taking duties.

His brother who also has some of his less endearing attributes is 10 times the player COC is and one of the best half forwards in the country.

If Mayo had a Michael Murphy, Conor McManus, Paul Geaney etc, the likelihood is that O'Connor would then really struggle to make that Mayo team. They solve the free taking duties and there's no way you can say that O'Connor gives you what Andy Moran, Jason Doherty, his brother, Aidan O'Shea or Kevin McLoughlin do from play.

[JoG2]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

Yeah, serious return, but he's no Dazzler McCurry 

Oh look, a Derry man itching to satisfy that chip on his shoulder.

Highly unlikely anyone will get close to O'Connor's record as nobody will quite get an ecosystem quite like O'Connor has had with Mayo to harvest handy scores.

Chip? Ah ha, you're the man continuously lambasting O'Connor. Haven't seen you call out any other poster on their county. Just shows, even in our current predictiment, we're never far from your thoughts. #thedazzler

[Angelo]

Having considerably more time than sense lately. I decided to check out Cillian's scoring returns, some of them at any rate.
I decided to concentrate on his championship games from 2011 to 2019, his entire championship games so far, that he scored in and I used Willie Joe's blog for the statistics.
The format I used is fairly straightforward.
The year, the number of games he scored in, the monthly total of actual scores and finally, the number of scores from frees, penalties, 45s etc.


So, here goes....

2011, 5 games, total score 1-19, frees etc. 0-14
2012, 5 games, total score 0-21, frees etc. 0-19
2013, 5 games, total score 6-22, frees etc, 0-18
2014, 6 games, total score 5-36, frees etc. 4-25
2015, 5 games, total score 3-34, frees etc. 1-29
2016, 9 games, total score 2-44, frees etc. 1-34
2017, 10 games, total score 3-66, frees etc. 1-48
2018, 4 games, total score 3-22, frees etc. 0-18
2019, 6 games, total score  2-26, frees etc. 0-19


He scored in a total of 55 games, notching up 25-290 in all with 7-224 from placed balls. His total from play in that period was 18-66.
His overall score in points was 365 and of that, 245 came from placed balls and 120 was from open play. In other words,approximately one third of his total came from open play.

I have COC record as 25-297(372) in 55 championship  games. Remarkable record.  Sean O'Shea and maybe David Clifford  will get close to the record.

Yeah, serious return, but he's no Dazzler McCurry 

Oh look, a Derry man itching to satisfy that chip on his shoulder.

Highly unlikely anyone will get close to O'Connor's record as nobody will quite get an ecosystem quite like O'Connor has had with Mayo to harvest handy scores.

Chip? Ah ha, you're the man continuously lambasting O'Connor. Haven't seen you call out any other poster on their county. Just shows, even in our current predictiment, we're never far from your thoughts. #thedazzler

Lambasting him?

I'm appraising him as a player, he has always stood out as the weak link in what was/is a fantastic Mayo team.

McCurry is not a top class forward but neither is O'Connor. You're the guy whose obsession with Tyrone saw you bring a Tyrone man into it.

I think it was The Dazzler who broke Derry's hearts last summer, still greeting over it?