Who do you think will win them?
Last 10 were
Donegal 1
Kerry 1
Tyrone 1
Dublin 7
Quote from: seafoid on September 19, 2021, 01:02:54 PM
Who do you think will win them?
Last 10 were
Donegal 1
Kerry 1
Tyrone 1
Dublin 7
......and the 10 before that!
Armagh 1
Tyrone 3
Kerry 4
Cork 1
Dublin 1
Quote from: seafoid on September 19, 2021, 01:02:54 PM
Who do you think will win them?
Last 10 were
Donegal 1
Kerry 1
Tyrone 1
Dublin 7
I reckon (including 2020 & 2021 -- keeping it on the decade boundaries):
Dublin 3 -- Will get it together again, though not with such uninterrupted dominance
Tyrone 3 -- Ain't finished yet
Kerry 2 -- Will find the necessary sporadically despite the habitual waltzing through Munster
Mayo 1 -- Finally nailing that Final performance
Donegal 1 -- Fulfilling potential, despite themselves
Sin é ;)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 19, 2021, 06:02:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 19, 2021, 01:02:54 PM
Who do you think will win them?
Last 10 were
Donegal 1
Kerry 1
Tyrone 1
Dublin 7
I reckon (including 2020 & 2021 -- keeping it on the decade boundaries):
Dublin 3 -- Will get it together again, though not with such uninterrupted dominance
Tyrone 3 -- Ain't finished yet
Kerry 2 -- Will find the necessary sporadically despite the habitual waltzing through Munster
Mayo 1 -- Finally nailing that Final performance
Donegal 1 -- Fulfilling potential, despite themselves
Sin é ;)
To quote Pat Spillane, 'God bless your optimism'.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 19, 2021, 06:02:31 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 19, 2021, 01:02:54 PM
Who do you think will win them?
Last 10 were
Donegal 1
Kerry 1
Tyrone 1
Dublin 7
I reckon (including 2020 & 2021 -- keeping it on the decade boundaries):
Dublin 3 -- Will get it together again, though not with such uninterrupted dominance
Tyrone 3 -- Ain't finished yet
Kerry 2 -- Will find the necessary sporadically despite the habitual waltzing through Munster
Mayo 1 -- Finally nailing that Final performance
Donegal 1 -- Fulfilling potential, despite themselves
Sin é ;)
Take away those from Mayo and Donegal and add one Dublin and one to Kerry and that's about right
If the new championship format becomes like the Super 8's on steroids, then it will only be the likes of Dublin Kerry and Tyrone fit to compete, as they are the only ones with extended squads with enough quality
The likes of Monaghan Roscommon Galway Armagh Kildare etc could beat a big team once, but not 3 or 4 times in the same season, as that's what will be required to get near to winning Sam.
You'd like to think the likes of Derry Sligo minors, Offaly u20s coming through in a few years will challenge but the odds are stacked against them
so basically the same 3 or 4 teams will be winning it and people will think its great
I think Dublin will win 6 or 7 of the next 10. Kerry maybe 2 and 2 go up to ulster, Tyrone and maybe donegal 1 a piece.
This new format seems a bit off to me so you only have to win 3 games to win an all Ireland (if you look at it
separately from league) and some teams in division 1 will not get a chance and some division 4 team will seems like teams are getting punished for being division 1 i would rather them do a 16 team open draw knockout for division 1 and 2 division 3 and 4 can play the tier 2 cup than this proposed format.Also will there be any point of having a league final if the all Ireland would now be effectively an extension of the league.
A decade is a long time. For instance, it is not impossible that this years minor champions Meath could build a team that could be in contention at the end of the decade. If Dublin fall back a bit and the likes of Meath can see a good prospect of winning Leinster then they could come back into the top 4 teams. In 1990, would someone have predicted that 10 years later there wouldn't be much between Kerry, Galway and Armagh.
The 90s had 7 different winners. The Dubs and Kerry won 1 each
In order for a repeat the Dubs would need a period of sustained mediocrity
and Kerry would need to continue their current trend.
Mayo need to start producing forwards.
The big question is whether or not the natural cycle of winning can return.
Or will the Dubs return to suck the oxygen out of the sport ?
The likes of Galway, Derry, Armagh , Meath were once in a generation teams, where everything came right together at The same time.
I don't think it's a case of building a decent team/squad nowadays to achieve success. It's about building a footballing empire, with top coaches, up to date. training facilities, all the scientific stuff, development squads, centres of excellence etc etc. and constantly raising enough funding to sustain all that.
This is up there with being one of the most pointless threads! Imagine looking to the next 10 Premiership winners or the Next 10 Champions League winners. Or doing the same with the Club championship within your county? Who cares?
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 19, 2021, 09:03:16 PM
This is up there with being one of the most pointless threads! Imagine looking to the next 10 Premiership winners or the Next 10 Champions League winners. Or doing the same with the Club championship within your county? Who cares?
Just a piece of pointless nonsense, and probably as meaningful as any other thread at this time of year in fairness, in the National calendar year. :)
Quote from: BennyCake on September 19, 2021, 08:38:33 PM
The likes of Galway, Derry, Armagh , Meath were once in a generation teams, where everything came right together at The same time.
I don't think it's a case of building a decent team/squad nowadays to achieve success. It's about building a footballing empire, with top coaches, up to date. training facilities, all the scientific stuff, development squads, centres of excellence etc etc. and constantly raising enough funding to sustain all that.
Tbf Meath had two very good teams with almost completely different players not that far apart.
I don't understand Galway. They produce some great talent and that 98/01 team shouldn't have been a once in a generation team but it has been. They are producing some great players now and seem to be getting worse.
The others you are probably right on. (Galway too). Dublin, Kerry and maybe Tyrone will win this decade. Tbh can't see much else.
Armagh will win an All Ireland in the next 10 years, you heard it here first! Set the reminders for September 2031 so we can do a fact check on this statement :-)
Think Cork will be contending in a few years. They look well off at present, but with better management at Senior level it night help. They had some good underage teams
Quote from: Eire90 on September 19, 2021, 07:09:04 PM
so basically the same 3 or 4 teams will be winning it and people will think its great
Exactly. Amazing, isn't it!? Personally, I thought the straight knock-out for the couple of years was quite fun!
You have teams that will likely win an All Ireland
Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone
Teams that should win an All Ireland
Mayo
Teams that could win an All Ireland with a fair wind
Donegal, Galway, Cork, Meath, Armagh, Monaghan
Teams that should do better
Kildare, Down, Derry
everyone else.
If you took Dublin out then the Championship would be quite interesting.
Shared among Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone might win another 1 or two depending on the form and mood of Kerry, Dublin.
While Donegal, Galway are capable both must first bring in better quality managers. Mayo to reach 5 or 6 finals and lose them all will hardly surprise any one.
Quote from: burdizzo on September 19, 2021, 10:07:18 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on September 19, 2021, 07:09:04 PM
so basically the same 3 or 4 teams will be winning it and people will think its great
Exactly. Amazing, isn't it!? Personally, I thought the straight knock-out for the couple of years was quite fun!
Tipp and Cavan having super days and great runs to the semi finals was fantastic. But led to two dead ducks of semi-finals.
This year, the championship was a little bit dull in the provincials, but the best four teams made the semis and you had two superbly entertaining games. The interesting thing is that both semi finals ended in draws, and in any other year that would have meant replays, and favourites almost always win replays. Extra time is a completely different animal where momentum and/or one moment of magic is more important.
There's a big 4 appeared in recent years which was hidden somewhat by Dublin's dominance.
No obvious candidates to make it a 5 or dislodge any of the 4.
Donegal probably 5th but never look like getting above that.
Meath has the population, tradition and a lot of AI winners in their midst but are more long term.
No matter how many good Minor or u20 teams come out of Cork hurling's pre eminence will stymie their development of a strong Senior team.
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 19, 2021, 09:35:45 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on September 19, 2021, 08:38:33 PM
The likes of Galway, Derry, Armagh , Meath were once in a generation teams, where everything came right together at The same time.
I don't think it's a case of building a decent team/squad nowadays to achieve success. It's about building a footballing empire, with top coaches, up to date. training facilities, all the scientific stuff, development squads, centres of excellence etc etc. and constantly raising enough funding to sustain all that.
Meath had two very good teams with almost completely different players not that far apart.
I don't understand Galway. They produce some great talent and that 98/01 team shouldn't have been a once in a generation team but it has been. They are producing some great players now and seem to be getting worse.
The others you are probably right on. (Galway too). Dublin, Kerry and maybe Tyrone will win this decade. Tbh can't see much else.
Yeah, true enough
Cork really are the sleeping giant. Reckon they might win one towards the end of the decade if they can get away from the gift from the gods (TM).
Will we be back to backdoor system in football next year or is that still to be decided?
Quote from: maddog on September 20, 2021, 11:35:00 AM
Will we be back to backdoor system in football next year or is that still to be decided?
There is a Special Congress on October 23rd which will decide everything.
There are four possibilities.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40700996.html
QuoteAll-Ireland senior football championship structure - four provincial conferences of eight teams (national fixtures review committee)
All-Ireland senior football championship structure - All-Ireland SFC League.
If not enough delegates chose the eights or the league, they must choose between the old qualifier system and Super 8s (national fixtures review committee).
I am hoping for a return to the 2017 format. The new proposals are awful.
Dublin, probably 3, don't think they'll dominate like the past decade
Kerry, probably 3 with the right manager
Mayo, maybe 1, still the nucleus of a decent squad there but need forwards and it needs to be soon
Galway, maybe 1, if they get their act together, should have enough good players. Have never gone as long before without at least a final appearance.
Tyrone, fairly good chance of another, but won't have a year like this again where nearly all the breaks went their way
Cork, Meath, Donegal best of the rest, with maybe Derry an outlier.
Roscommon, Kildare, Down will need something special, Monaghan's ship has sailed I fear.
The emergence of a great manager somewhere could decide which county takes 3 or 4 of the next 10 All Irelands.
All conquering managers are key to building GAA empires.
10 years ago Jim Gavin hadn't come to prominence. If the best of the rest were in charge of Dublin, how many would they won after 2011?
Kerry 4
Tyrone 3
Dublin 2
Mayo 1
We will still be having conversations about the championship structures in 10 years..
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 09:59:28 AM
This year, the championship was a little bit dull in the provincials, but the best four teams made the semis and you had two superbly entertaining games. The interesting thing is that both semi finals ended in draws, and in any other year that would have meant replays, and favourites almost always win replays. Extra time is a completely different animal where momentum and/or one moment of magic is more important.
Dull yes but the game of the championship was a provincial game between Monaghan and Armagh.
Having watched it back a 2nd time Mayo v Dublin was more intriguing than entertaining, the amount of basic errors by two top 4 teams was striking. Dublin known for their strength and conditioning looked way off it especially in extra time and were making mistakes I haven't seen from them since pre Gavin days. There is no doubt the two semi finals going to extra time instead of a replay was a help to Tyrone and Mayo.
Next year the plan is to have the county season finished by July so remains to be seen how much time in the calendar will allow for replays?
Quote from: sid waddell on September 20, 2021, 11:42:26 AM
I am hoping for a return to the 2017 format. The new proposals are awful.
I'd hope so too but there is a clear push by HQ to get one of the new proposals in place and the Congress was pushed back with that in mind.
Galway. Have never gone as long before without at least a final appearance.
That is very striking. Going back a century.
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 19, 2021, 09:03:16 PM
This is up there with being one of the most pointless threads! Imagine looking to the next 10 Premiership winners or the Next 10 Champions League winners. Or doing the same with the Club championship within your county? Who cares?
Hmmm yes it strikes me as the type of thread Martin Breheny might start were he on this forum.
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 19, 2021, 09:03:16 PM
This is up there with being one of the most pointless threads! Imagine looking to the next 10 Premiership winners or the Next 10 Champions League winners. Or doing the same with the Club championship within your county? Who cares?
It's a long way to the start of the league.
Kerry are going through a strange phase. 1 all Ireland in the last decade.
In the previous decade they picked up.Sams against teams they would always beat viz Mayo and Cork but they couldn't beat Tyrone on the big day and they couldn't beat Dublin recently.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 02:28:55 PM
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 09:59:28 AM
This year, the championship was a little bit dull in the provincials, but the best four teams made the semis and you had two superbly entertaining games. The interesting thing is that both semi finals ended in draws, and in any other year that would have meant replays, and favourites almost always win replays. Extra time is a completely different animal where momentum and/or one moment of magic is more important.
Dull yes but the game of the championship was a provincial game between Monaghan and Armagh.
Having watched it back a 2nd time Mayo v Dublin was more intriguing than entertaining, the amount of basic errors by two top 4 teams was striking. Dublin known for their strength and conditioning looked way off it especially in extra time and were making mistakes I haven't seen from them since pre Gavin days. There is no doubt the two semi finals going to extra time instead of a replay was a help to Tyrone and Mayo.
Next year the plan is to have the county season finished by July so remains to be seen how much time in the calendar will allow for replays?
Quote from: sid waddell on September 20, 2021, 11:42:26 AM
I am hoping for a return to the 2017 format. The new proposals are awful.
I'd hope so too but there is a clear push by HQ to get one of the new proposals in place and the Congress was pushed back with that in mind.
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 20, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
[/quote]
Would you not have loved if Armagh had a backdoor this year to get at least one more game to see how they are progressing?
The new SFC League system is interesting, and the intercounty players have given it the thumbs up.
Firstly a standalone provincial championship.
Then the new All Ireland SFC League.
Same four NFL divisions.
Each team would have an opportunity to win the Sam Maguire Cup but only the top five in Division 1, top three in Division 2 and Division 3 and 4 winners will advance to the knockout stages (top five in Division 1 and Division 2 winners would go straight into the quarter-finals, the other four facing off in preliminary quarter-finals for the remaining two places).
So you need to qualify for the last 10 by having a good league. Then it's straight knockout.
There are naysayers saying that it would be better to be in Division 4 than Division 1, and how can it be fair to have Leitrim win Division 4 and qualify and Galway come 6th in Division 1 and not qualify, when clearly Galway are better than Leitrim? But that's part of the beauty of the new system, to give an underdog/small county their chance. And Galway (or whoever comes 6th, 7th, 8th) will have had 7 games to try and get into the top 5. If they can't, then they deserve to be out.
Worth a try. (Although I'd prefer if it was 6-3-2-1 qualifier mix)
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 20, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry’s route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
For many counties the provincial championships is their All-Ireland. For example look at the great interest there was in the build up to Ulster final for Fermanagh or the scenes of pure joy when the likes of Monaghan, Roscommon, Tipperary and Cavan won recent provincial titles can those scenes be reproduced with a straight knock out format?
The provincial championships not linked to the All-Ireland will become pre season competitions whereby managers will play 2nd or 3rd string sides in those games. All that history and tradition simply binned.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 20, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
For many counties the provincial championships is their All-Ireland. For example look at the great interest there was in the build up to Ulster final for Fermanagh or the scenes of pure joy when the likes of Monaghan, Roscommon, Tipperary and Cavan won recent provincial titles can those scenes be reproduced with a straight knock out format?
The provincial championships not liked to the All-Ireland will become pre season competitions whereby managers will play 2nd or 3rd string sides in those games. All that history and tradition simply binned.
If a Connacht title means as much as you say, teams won't play their 2nd and 3rd strings.
Or does it only mean so much because it's a very handy way for the Connacht champions to reach the latter stages of the AI?
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 04:32:00 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 20, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry’s route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
For many counties the provincial championships is their All-Ireland. For example look at the great interest there was in the build up to Ulster final for Fermanagh or the scenes of pure joy when the likes of Monaghan, Roscommon, Tipperary and Cavan won recent provincial titles can those scenes be reproduced with a straight knock out format?
The provincial championships not liked to the All-Ireland will become pre season competitions whereby managers will play 2nd or 3rd string sides in those games. All that history and tradition simply binned.
If a Connacht title means as much as you say, teams won't play their 2nd and 3rd strings.
Or does it only mean so much because it's a very handy way for the Connacht champions to reach the latter stages of the AI?
Means that much when connected to the main championship and its a competition that has a long history and tradition.
Stand alone the Connacht championship will basically make it like the FBD. More than likely a number of subs/extended panelists will be given a run out, trials on new formations and styles of play will be done in preparation for the championship/league coming up afterwards.
Year one should still get decent crowds but won't be long before the many 1000s that attended provincial championships games will become a few hundred.
Does anyone favour the 4 "regions" of 8 at all?
Other than Provincial officers?
The other proposals main weakness us turning the Provincials into a pre season League.
In principle the idea of the NF League being a Championship qualifier is an excellent idea and is fairer that the 7/6/9/11 Provincials.
Could they not play the Provincials on the traditional knock out format intermingled with the NFL, like soccer cups?
Seed the 4 winners to avoid each other in the early part of the AI series.
Keep the FBD etc as warmer uppers.
Quote from: seafoid on September 20, 2021, 02:30:01 PM
Galway. Have never gone as long before without at least a final appearance.
That is very striking. Going back a century.
At what point are people going to realise that Galway are going nowhere at the minute? It's systemic at this stage, have we a county board asking what is going wrong with the transition of underage talent to Senior success? Are they doing everything to get Galway to an All Ireland final this decade? Are the Senior panel being given the platform to perform? Is the mgt setup top class in nature? If not why are they still in place? If the money isn't there, what's the plan to get more sponsors and everyone pulling in the one direction?
You can't even get the club results on the offical website at times, we're an absolute joke right now.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 20, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
For many counties the provincial championships is their All-Ireland. For example look at the great interest there was in the build up to Ulster final for Fermanagh or the scenes of pure joy when the likes of Monaghan, Roscommon, Tipperary and Cavan won recent provincial titles can those scenes be reproduced with a straight knock out format?
The provincial championships not liked to the All-Ireland will become pre season competitions whereby managers will play 2nd or 3rd string sides in those games. All that history and tradition simply binned.
Jim McGuinness's points in his article in Saturday's Irish Times were similar to what you've made there and were well taken, I felt.
I think the abolition of the provincial championships as we have known them would be a disaster.
The problem with the championship as a whole is the general competitiveness, not the format (I'm talking about the 2001-2017 format here, rather than the championships including the Super 8s, which were a dog's dinner). The 2001-2017 format was a very good one in my view. Far too many people are proposing to tackle the symptom of the problem, rather than the cause.
And tackling the symptom will only make the underlying problem worse.
Quote from: An Fhairche Abu on September 20, 2021, 06:42:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 20, 2021, 02:30:01 PM
Galway. Have never gone as long before without at least a final appearance.
That is very striking. Going back a century.
At what point are people going to realise that Galway are going nowhere at the minute? It's systemic at this stage, have we a county board asking what is going wrong with the transition of underage talent to Senior success? Are they doing everything to get Galway to an All Ireland final this decade? Are the Senior panel being given the platform to perform? Is the mgt setup top class in nature? If not why are they still in place? If the money isn't there, what's the plan to get more sponsors and everyone pulling in the one direction?
You can't even get the club results on the offical website at times, we're an absolute joke right now.
Culture. There isn't the culture in Galway that demands success. Same with Cork, Kildare and a load of other underachieving counties.
People can say what they want about Mayo but they have the sort of culture that demands success and they've had it for the last 25 years.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:54:44 PM
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 04:32:00 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 20, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
For many counties the provincial championships is their All-Ireland. For example look at the great interest there was in the build up to Ulster final for Fermanagh or the scenes of pure joy when the likes of Monaghan, Roscommon, Tipperary and Cavan won recent provincial titles can those scenes be reproduced with a straight knock out format?
The provincial championships not liked to the All-Ireland will become pre season competitions whereby managers will play 2nd or 3rd string sides in those games. All that history and tradition simply binned.
If a Connacht title means as much as you say, teams won't play their 2nd and 3rd strings.
Or does it only mean so much because it's a very handy way for the Connacht champions to reach the latter stages of the AI?
Means that much when connected to the main championship and its a competition that has a long history and tradition.
Stand alone the Connacht championship will basically make it like the FBD. More than likely a number of subs/extended panelists will be given a run out, trials on new formations and styles of play will be done in preparation for the championship/league coming up afterwards.
Year one should still get decent crowds but won't be long before the many 1000s that attended provincial championships games will become a few hundred.
People said the same when the back door was introduced. Teams being able to lose would diminish the competition.
The FBD is being abolished for the moment, no matter what the championship format is. If the new league/championship format is brought in, the provincials are replacing the old league, not the FBD.
Same cups, same medals. There are no asterisks beside provincial wins post back door introduction. And there'll be no need for asterisks afterwards. It might be harder for some Connacht teams to make an All Ireland semi. It will definitely be harder for Kerry and Dublin. That's a good thing.
The current provincial system is very unfair to the Ulster counties
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 09:52:47 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:54:44 PM
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 04:32:00 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 20, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
For many counties the provincial championships is their All-Ireland. For example look at the great interest there was in the build up to Ulster final for Fermanagh or the scenes of pure joy when the likes of Monaghan, Roscommon, Tipperary and Cavan won recent provincial titles can those scenes be reproduced with a straight knock out format?
The provincial championships not liked to the All-Ireland will become pre season competitions whereby managers will play 2nd or 3rd string sides in those games. All that history and tradition simply binned.
If a Connacht title means as much as you say, teams won't play their 2nd and 3rd strings.
Or does it only mean so much because it's a very handy way for the Connacht champions to reach the latter stages of the AI?
Means that much when connected to the main championship and its a competition that has a long history and tradition.
Stand alone the Connacht championship will basically make it like the FBD. More than likely a number of subs/extended panelists will be given a run out, trials on new formations and styles of play will be done in preparation for the championship/league coming up afterwards.
Year one should still get decent crowds but won't be long before the many 1000s that attended provincial championships games will become a few hundred.
People said the same when the back door was introduced. Teams being able to lose would diminish the competition.
The FBD is being abolished for the moment, no matter what the championship format is. If the new league/championship format is brought in, the provincials are replacing the old league, not the FBD.
Same cups, same medals. There are no asterisks beside provincial wins post back door introduction. And there'll be no need for asterisks afterwards. It might be harder for some Connacht teams to make an All Ireland semi. It will definitely be harder for Kerry and Dublin. That's a good thing.
The current provincial system is very unfair to the Ulster counties
The back door definitely diminished provincial titles to an extent. Like if you're Waterford hurlers winning Munster for the first time in 39 years in 2002 and then getting beaten by Clare in the All-Ireland semi-final are you telling me it didn't leave a sour taste? Or Waterford being beaten by Limerick after winning Munster in 2007?
Or what about Tyrone being beaten by Derry in the 2001 All-Ireland quarter-final after beating them on the way to winning Ulster? The same with Roscommon the same year. Monaghan getting beaten by Tyrone after winning Ulster in 2013 and 2015.
Of course it diminished it to an extent. But it still wasn't meaningless. An Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition in the muck and the rain of February is not an Ulster championship, it's a McKenna Cup.
A championship run off under a league system will suit Dublin and Kerry more than anybody.
I Can't remember how far we were behind v Monaghan , but it looked over long before the end. Then we come back and take the lead, and I thought frig this is great , we're going to do this! Then Monaghan get a couple of scores near the end to nick the win.
And even though I was bloody gutted , and that was our year over, I knew that it was right. Our year was over. No back doors, side doors or cat flaps. We were gone. Cracking game, we shipped 4 goals, came back and nearly won it. But it was only right that that was it. The end. That's how it should be.
You don't get the same intensity, excitement, passion in super 8's, back doors or diluted championships with a second chance the following week. And you won't get that winner takes all, the euphoria of winning a do or die clash, nor will you get the gut wrenching defeat and knowing your year is oveR
Quote from: sid waddell on September 20, 2021, 11:07:25 PM
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 09:52:47 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:54:44 PM
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 04:32:00 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 20, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
For many counties the provincial championships is their All-Ireland. For example look at the great interest there was in the build up to Ulster final for Fermanagh or the scenes of pure joy when the likes of Monaghan, Roscommon, Tipperary and Cavan won recent provincial titles can those scenes be reproduced with a straight knock out format?
The provincial championships not liked to the All-Ireland will become pre season competitions whereby managers will play 2nd or 3rd string sides in those games. All that history and tradition simply binned.
If a Connacht title means as much as you say, teams won't play their 2nd and 3rd strings.
Or does it only mean so much because it's a very handy way for the Connacht champions to reach the latter stages of the AI?
Means that much when connected to the main championship and its a competition that has a long history and tradition.
Stand alone the Connacht championship will basically make it like the FBD. More than likely a number of subs/extended panelists will be given a run out, trials on new formations and styles of play will be done in preparation for the championship/league coming up afterwards.
Year one should still get decent crowds but won't be long before the many 1000s that attended provincial championships games will become a few hundred.
People said the same when the back door was introduced. Teams being able to lose would diminish the competition.
The FBD is being abolished for the moment, no matter what the championship format is. If the new league/championship format is brought in, the provincials are replacing the old league, not the FBD.
Same cups, same medals. There are no asterisks beside provincial wins post back door introduction. And there'll be no need for asterisks afterwards. It might be harder for some Connacht teams to make an All Ireland semi. It will definitely be harder for Kerry and Dublin. That's a good thing.
The current provincial system is very unfair to the Ulster counties
The back door definitely diminished provincial titles to an extent. Like if you're Waterford hurlers winning Munster for the first time in 39 years in 2002 and then getting beaten by Clare in the All-Ireland semi-final are you telling me it didn't leave a sour taste? Or Waterford being beaten by Limerick after winning Munster in 2007?
Or what about Tyrone being beaten by Derry in the 2001 All-Ireland quarter-final after beating them on the way to winning Ulster? The same with Roscommon the same year. Monaghan getting beaten by Tyrone after winning Ulster in 2013 and 2015.
Of course it diminished it to an extent. But it still wasn't meaningless. An Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition in the muck and the rain of February is not an Ulster championship, it's a McKenna Cup.
A championship run off under a league system will suit Dublin and Kerry more than anybody.
Covered a lot of the points I have going to make. Winning Connacht under this new format will likely mean as much as winning the FBD.
Getting rid of the pre season competitions for 2022 before any new format has been rubber stamped is a big hint of HQ already knowing the proposal they want will be finalised.
Can other proposals be put on the clár of the October Congress?
2 problems with Provincials being an integral part of AI- Kerry have 5 hurling Counties to glide by most years; A Connacht team can get into last 12 by batin Laythrum (Ros 2017, 2018)
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 09:52:47 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:54:44 PM
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 04:32:00 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 20, 2021, 04:10:35 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 20, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
For many counties the provincial championships is their All-Ireland. For example look at the great interest there was in the build up to Ulster final for Fermanagh or the scenes of pure joy when the likes of Monaghan, Roscommon, Tipperary and Cavan won recent provincial titles can those scenes be reproduced with a straight knock out format?
The provincial championships not liked to the All-Ireland will become pre season competitions whereby managers will play 2nd or 3rd string sides in those games. All that history and tradition simply binned.
If a Connacht title means as much as you say, teams won't play their 2nd and 3rd strings.
Or does it only mean so much because it's a very handy way for the Connacht champions to reach the latter stages of the AI?
Means that much when connected to the main championship and its a competition that has a long history and tradition.
Stand alone the Connacht championship will basically make it like the FBD. More than likely a number of subs/extended panelists will be given a run out, trials on new formations and styles of play will be done in preparation for the championship/league coming up afterwards.
Year one should still get decent crowds but won't be long before the many 1000s that attended provincial championships games will become a few hundred.
People said the same when the back door was introduced. Teams being able to lose would diminish the competition.
The FBD is being abolished for the moment, no matter what the championship format is. If the new league/championship format is brought in, the provincials are replacing the old league, not the FBD.
Same cups, same medals. There are no asterisks beside provincial wins post back door introduction. And there'll be no need for asterisks afterwards. It might be harder for some Connacht teams to make an All Ireland semi. It will definitely be harder for Kerry and Dublin. That's a good thing.
The current provincial system is very unfair to the Ulster counties
Yeah, but we love it because it IS hard to win.
Only less than satisfying Ulster win I can remember for Donegal was 2018, when we won without beating either of the other two strong-at-the-time counties, Monaghan and Tyrone (and we then lost to Tyrone in the Super 8s). It just seemed a bit too handy and hollow. I would imagine Tyrone, even if they hadn't won it all this year, would still be happy enough with a hard-earned Ulster title.
That said, I'm not against trying other formats and seeing how they go overall.
Quote from: Hound on September 20, 2021, 04:04:06 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 20, 2021, 03:44:22 PM
Straight knockout and provincials not linked to the All Ireland are a must. Look at Kerry's route to the semi final vs Tyrones.
Would you not have loved if Armagh had a backdoor this year to get at least one more game to see how they are progressing?
The new SFC League system is interesting, and the intercounty players have given it the thumbs up.
Firstly a standalone provincial championship.
Then the new All Ireland SFC League.
Same four NFL divisions.
Each team would have an opportunity to win the Sam Maguire Cup but only the top five in Division 1, top three in Division 2 and Division 3 and 4 winners will advance to the knockout stages (top five in Division 1 and Division 2 winners would go straight into the quarter-finals, the other four facing off in preliminary quarter-finals for the remaining two places).
So you need to qualify for the last 10 by having a good league. Then it's straight knockout.
There are naysayers saying that it would be better to be in Division 4 than Division 1, and how can it be fair to have Leitrim win Division 4 and qualify and Galway come 6th in Division 1 and not qualify, when clearly Galway are better than Leitrim? But that's part of the beauty of the new system, to give an underdog/small county their chance. And Galway (or whoever comes 6th, 7th, 8th) will have had 7 games to try and get into the top 5. If they can't, then they deserve to be out.
Worth a try. (Although I'd prefer if it was 6-3-2-1 qualifier mix)
[/quote]
The new proposals turn the League into part of the all Ireland.
"Sher it's only the league" is part of Béaloideas na hÉireann
As far as Proposal B goes, there's definitely a chance to game the system. Like, which would be harder, securing one of the three qualifying places from Division 2, or one of the five qualifying places from Division 1?
If you're in Division 1, and you know you're not going to qualify in the top 5, why bother putting in effort for matches which are dead rubbers as far as you're concerned? Getting relegated becomes the more attractive option to give you a better chance of qualifying the following year.
At least in the League as it is now, dead rubber matches fulfil a function - they are battles for places and preparation for the championship.
If in this new League as Championship format, a Division 4 team loses their first two matches, what's the point in bothering with the other five?
There's no point in throwing a division 4 team into the latter stages of the All Ireland to get a mauling. The two tier league and championship seems the only logical way. For me, i'd have 3 divisions, top 6 in div 1 and top 2 in div 2 into the Sam Maguire quarter finals, bottom 3 in div 1 relegated and top two in division 2 promoted plus the intermediate championship winners.
The next 4 in division 2 go into the Intermediate championship quarter finals along with the top 4 in div 3. Bottom 2 relegated from div 2 and top 2 promoted from Div 3. If the intermediate champions come from outside the top 2 in div 3 then an additional div 2 team is relegated.
The jeopardy from getting relegated from div 1 and getting a handy run to the quarter finals from div 2 is that you need to finish in the top two or you face intermediate football. That keeps div 1 competitive enough throughout. Every team in the country is only one season away from competing for Sam if they can get on a roll.
It's a bit illogical that teams 6 to 8 and 11 to 16 can't play in the AI but teams 17 and 25 can.
If the D3 and 4 winners must take part I would suggest top 6 D1, top 4 D2 plus D3 and D4 winners.
Ah there's not really going to be any long term advantage to playing in D2 if you really have ambitions of winning the all-ireland under that proposal.
If it was in next year the top 5 in D1 will have came through Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin, Monaghan, Armagh, Mayo and Kildare. That's 7 brutal games and any team progressing through 7 games like that at a championship level would leave you in a serious position.
D2 will have Meath, Clare, Cork, Down, Derry, Cavan, Galway and Roscommon. With the greatest of respect to those teams, it's hardly ideal preparation for a quarterfinal against any of the top 5 teams who would come through d1.
As for giving the 2 winners from D3 and D4 a spot, I think it's great. They will have come through a tough run at their own level, will have had a chance to get things right and will already have their all-ireland medal in the pocket for their grade. A big game out in croker for one of them will be brilliant. Nothing to stop the likes of a Leitrim winning d4 and getting to an all-ireland QF. Surely a big game like that in Croker would be a serious carrot for those players and a guaranteed 7 games in the summer every year might keep a few guys interested.
The Provincials need to be retained but I've long said they should be played seperate from the AI series. It's just complete nonsense that you might have to win 4 games against D1 opposition to win Ulster and get to a SF/QF while the 3 other winners can stroll through. Yeah they might be less prepared but they will have been able to taper the training for the later stages.
Quote from: Jayop on September 21, 2021, 05:06:30 PM
Ah there's not really going to be any long term advantage to playing in D2 if you really have ambitions of winning the all-ireland under that proposal.
If it was in next year the top 5 in D1 will have came through Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry, Dublin, Monaghan, Armagh, Mayo and Kildare. That's 7 brutal games and any team progressing through 7 games like that at a championship level would leave you in a serious position.
D2 will have Meath, Clare, Cork, Down, Derry, Cavan, Galway and Roscommon. With the greatest of respect to those teams, it's hardly ideal preparation for a quarterfinal against any of the top 5 teams who would come through d1.
Well if you're to hold that view that means you also have to hold the view that you can't win the All-Ireland from outside Division 1, you can't even compete. Inevitable defeat in the knockout stage will be your lot.
Which means the proposal is completely elitist.
We already see the yo-yo team phenomenon in action in the League. Teams get promoted from Division 2 and go straight back down. Promoted teams cannot break into the elite circle because the game is loaded against them.
So under Proposal B, the championship will be run for the benefit of the few, and f**k the rest.
Championships are always the preserve of a few.
If you want a social welfare competition.....
Quote from: Rossfan on September 21, 2021, 05:25:35 PM
Championships are always the preserve of a few.
If you want a social welfare competition.....
The championship is not and was never supposed to be a social welfare competition.
It is in fact Proposal B which publicly advocates it be such, while in practice it will completely pull the rug up after the rich and leave everybody else in the wilderness in a much more extreme way than is already the case.
Quote from: sid waddell on September 21, 2021, 05:16:18 PM
Well if you're to hold that view that means you also have to hold the view that you can't win the All-Ireland from outside Division 1, you can't even compete. Inevitable defeat in the knockout stage will be your lot.
Which means the proposal is completely elitist.
We already see the yo-yo team phenomenon in action in the League. Teams get promoted from Division 2 and go straight back down. Promoted teams cannot break into the elite circle because the game is loaded against them.
So under Proposal B, the championship will be run for the benefit of the few, and f**k the rest.
When was the last time a team from outside D1 won it? All competitions are elitist if you mean do the best "elite" teams win it. I don't really understand your point, should we introduce a handicap system like golf and give a D4 team a 10 point headstart?? Here a D4 team wins their league, has a crack at a QF. The next year they're a D3 team playing at a better level. Again you skipped the big point I made and cut it from your quote about how I think 7 actual championship games guarenteed will stop players from weaker counties dropping off panels. I don't know why anyone would put in the work for 1/2 games a year. Waste of time.
Unless you completely strip any chance from the outset of the year for a team to be in the premier competition and simply have Sr, intermediate and Jr championships what other solution is there? As far as I'm aware the players from every county want the chance to be in the big one from the start of the year be that right or wrong.
Now if you're talking about leveling the playing field outside of the actual structure of the competitions then I'm all ears. Funding allocation is a joke right now, some county boards are being run by clowns, all that needs to be looked at too, but that being wrong doesn't mean the championship structure can't be made more fair.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 21, 2021, 10:50:36 AM
It's a bit illogical that teams 6 to 8 and 11 to 16 can't play in the AI but teams 17 and 25 can.
If the D3 and 4 winners must take part I would suggest top 6 D1, top 4 D2 plus D3 and D4 winners.
I'd agree. The difference between the teams in finishing positions 5, 6 and 7 would often be trivial amounts scoring difference; and smashing a team to death at least once a season becomes paramount.
But I'd also suggest: all 8 in D1, top 6 in D2, top 1 in D3 and top 1 in D4.
This way:
- the best 8 teams from the previous season (ie D1 at the start of the year) all qualify for the playoffs, ensuring higher standards.
- the advantage of having an additional home game in D1 is fully negated, and partly negated in D2.
- promotion to / remaining in D1 allows teams to plan / budget for the playoffs.
- promotion to / remaining in D1, or at very worst D2, becomes sacrosanct for all serious counties, thereby ensuring that pretty much every end of league (in D1 and D2) match is played at championship pace.
- qualifying for D2 takes on a whole new bonus territory for mid-tier counties; meaning their seasons would have clear barometers of progress and would'nt just be measured by "AI success or nothing".
- while ostensibly in terms of the playoff carrot, there would be little advantage in finding yourself in D3 or D4, dig a little deeper and you can use the former to springboard yourself into the big time, and the latter to realign and go again, and to build yourself back up by playing opposition at your standard. Any county that would willingly drop their standards for an entire season just so they have a chance of qualifying for the playoffs in D4, really wouldn't be thinking straight.
And most of all, every county player in Ireland would enjoy 7 important games at roughly the right level. And in 16 counties each year,, then can return to club football ready to concentrate on it.
Quote from: Jayop on September 21, 2021, 05:47:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 21, 2021, 05:16:18 PM
Well if you're to hold that view that means you also have to hold the view that you can't win the All-Ireland from outside Division 1, you can't even compete. Inevitable defeat in the knockout stage will be your lot.
Which means the proposal is completely elitist.
We already see the yo-yo team phenomenon in action in the League. Teams get promoted from Division 2 and go straight back down. Promoted teams cannot break into the elite circle because the game is loaded against them.
So under Proposal B, the championship will be run for the benefit of the few, and f**k the rest.
When was the last time a team from outside D1 won it? All competitions are elitist if you mean do the best "elite" teams win it. I don't really understand your point, should we introduce a handicap system like golf and give a D4 team a 10 point headstart?? Here a D4 team wins their league, has a crack at a QF. The next year they're a D3 team playing at a better level. Again you skipped the big point I made and cut it from your quote about how I think 7 actual championship games guarenteed will stop players from weaker counties dropping off panels. I don't know why anyone would put in the work for 1/2 games a year. Waste of time.
Unless you completely strip any chance from the outset of the year for a team to be in the premier competition and simply have Sr, intermediate and Jr championships what other solution is there? As far as I'm aware the players from every county want the chance to be in the big one from the start of the year be that right or wrong.
Now if you're talking about leveling the playing field outside of the actual structure of the competitions then I'm all ears. Funding allocation is a joke right now, some county boards are being run by clowns, all that needs to be looked at too, but that being wrong doesn't mean the championship structure can't be made more fair.
The last two teams to beat Dublin in the championship were in Division 2 that year - but they were Donegal and Mayo - who we all know in reality were top five teams who had a rare bad year in the League the year previous.
A major problem is that the League system since 2008 has helped to create yawning, long lasting gaps because the standard of football between divisions is so different. And it's very difficult to overcome that. So you fix the League by doing away with Divisions 1 to 4 and returning to the 16 team Divisions 1 and 2, as played from 1999-2007, which was a very competitive era in general. Hell, you could even go the whole hog and have four equal groups of eight as happened in the 1992/93 and 1998/99 League seasons. It would take a few years to reduce the gaps but they would reduce across the board.
The championship needs as much across the board competitiveness as possible and the current League system is a major driver towards stopping that.
If you make the current League system the Championship, that suits the top teams and nobody else. The gaps between the tiers will expand and they will become almost unbridgeable. You bring the yo-yo phenomenon which already exists in the League into the Championship. These tiers will likely become permanent with a lot of counties just not bothering and players and spectators giving up entirely.
And within that top tier, it suits Dublin and Kerry and disadvantages Mayo and Donegal in particular, and probably Tyrone too. The timing of the competition suits Dublin and Kerry, because they are the counties who can keep their players at home. With the planned earlier timing of the championship, it makes it a lot more difficult for the likes of Mayo and Donegal and other counties with a large number of players based outside the county to get organised. Travelling between Dublin and Mayo or Donegal is a hell of a lot easier in summer with the long evenings than in the dark. So you can expect a lot of Dublin-Kerry All-Ireland finals going forward.
If you don't address the across the board competitiveness, and the GAA is doing nothing at all towards that, the game will wither and the championship will become an after thought in the minds of the general sporting public, who are by the most important people to consider here. There is not and never has been a culture of week after week following a county team.
There will be a lot less big occasions, no more Ulster finals or Munster finals or on the day Galway v Mayo clashes, traditional rivalries, which make the game, will largely disappear, and a lot more dead rubbers with yawning empty spaces will take their places. If the GAA's showpiece competition no longer attracts mass interest, and if Dublin and Kerry are dominant from here on in, and under Proposal B that
will be the case, the GAA's place at the centre of Irish life will come under serious threat.
Amother lad with the gift of prophecy ::)
Leitrim and Sligo must have moved well up the rankings having a game each against Mayowestros this year.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 21, 2021, 08:44:55 PM
Amother lad with the gift of prophecy ::)
Leitrim and Sligo must have moved well up the rankings having a game each against Mayowestros this year.
Why do you think the gap is so large? Would it have anything to do with Mayo being fed a constant diet of top level football while Leitrim and Sligo are fed the dregs at the bottom?
Why do you think Sligo were consistently competitive in the 2000s but are so bad now? Would it have anything to do with them being
regularly exposed to playing against top teams in the League during the 2000s?
Anything at all?
Sligo had better players back then.
They've had reasonable under age teams last few years and with good management will work their way back up the rankings again.
I see they're putting a "development squad" or 18/19 years together which will hopefully make them competitive at a decent level again.
Ya in fairness Sid your reply to me was a solid argument. I'm not so passionate about the current suggestion to argue against you so you win. :)
The championship is broken, something needs done. Something that will both bring fairness to the top ulster counties who have to kill each other to get to the business end and something for the weaker counties to stop and reverse the decline.
I've previously posted detailed suggestions for a full calendar on boards.ie and I'm not going down that road again but I'm fully on board if someone comes up with something right.
Fwiw I think the no1 issue is still the unfair allocation of resources.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 21, 2021, 05:25:35 PM
Championships are always the preserve of a few.
If you want a social welfare competition.....
In the Sunday Tribune RIP in 1995 Ross Carr said that it would be 20 years before a team from Connacht got to the all Ireland final.
Mayo did it the following year.
The reason for Sligo's performance levels in the early noughties is the same as Fermanagh's of the same era, and Tipperary last year. It's what happens when a couple of the best players in the country (O'Hara, Breheny. Owens, McGrath. Quinlivan, Sweeney) marry with a handful of really good ones, and between them they get the best of out everyone else... to the point that lads who would otherwise have had a blasé attitude about playing county football, throw everything they have into the mix for a couple of seasons.
A small county / non football county maintaining that level of performance isn't possible. Even when their stars align in terms of personnel, they'll still mix bad years with good, as 1-2 injuries (or a tough draw) will see them fall short.
So in my opinion it's got nothing to do with the rich getting richer.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 22, 2021, 07:19:19 AM
The reason for Sligo's performance levels in the early noughties is the same as Fermanagh's of the same era, and Tipperary last year. It's what happens when a couple of the best players in the country (O'Hara, Breheny. Owens, McGrath. Quinlivan, Sweeney) marry with a handful of really good ones, and between them they get the best of out everyone else... to the point that lads who would otherwise have had a blasé attitude about playing county football, throw everything they have into the mix for a couple of seasons.
A small county / non football county maintaining that level of performance isn't possible. Even when their stars align in terms of personnel, they'll still mix bad years with good, as 1-2 injuries (or a tough draw) will see them fall short.
So in my opinion it's got nothing to do with the rich getting richer.
Very true.
Hope is a huge factor. If there is none in the short term , then it is very hard to build anything and you get stuck in perpetual failure. The lad who is 50/50 about spending the summer in the US is less likely to go if he is on the cusp of making the Mayo team, than the guy badly needed on the Sligo team.
It's been a major problem in Leinster counties for the past number of years. Lads not committing to it , cos "what's the point - Dublin gonna hammer us". I've heard this from lads in my own club, who have turned down the county manager. There might be an improvement in this now with Dublin's perceived weakening.
Quote from: shark on September 22, 2021, 08:40:58 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 22, 2021, 07:19:19 AM
The reason for Sligo's performance levels in the early noughties is the same as Fermanagh's of the same era, and Tipperary last year. It's what happens when a couple of the best players in the country (O'Hara, Breheny. Owens, McGrath. Quinlivan, Sweeney) marry with a handful of really good ones, and between them they get the best of out everyone else... to the point that lads who would otherwise have had a blasé attitude about playing county football, throw everything they have into the mix for a couple of seasons.
A small county / non football county maintaining that level of performance isn't possible. Even when their stars align in terms of personnel, they'll still mix bad years with good, as 1-2 injuries (or a tough draw) will see them fall short.
So in my opinion it's got nothing to do with the rich getting richer.
Very true.
Hope is a huge factor. If there is none in the short term , then it is very hard to build anything and you get stuck in perpetual failure. The lad who is 50/50 about spending the summer in the US is less likely to go if he is on the cusp of making the Mayo team, than the guy badly needed on the Sligo team.
It's been a major problem in Leinster counties for the past number of years. Lads not committing to it , cos "what's the point - Dublin gonna hammer us". I've heard this from lads in my own club, who have turned down the county manager. There might be an improvement in this now with Dublin's perceived weakening.
If all the best players in Meath and Kildare etc cut out the "whats the point" attitude, they could very quickly make the Leinster championship interesting again. Confidence is a huge thing.
Quote from: Armagh18 on September 22, 2021, 09:08:43 AM
Quote from: shark on September 22, 2021, 08:40:58 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 22, 2021, 07:19:19 AM
The reason for Sligo's performance levels in the early noughties is the same as Fermanagh's of the same era, and Tipperary last year. It's what happens when a couple of the best players in the country (O'Hara, Breheny. Owens, McGrath. Quinlivan, Sweeney) marry with a handful of really good ones, and between them they get the best of out everyone else... to the point that lads who would otherwise have had a blasé attitude about playing county football, throw everything they have into the mix for a couple of seasons.
A small county / non football county maintaining that level of performance isn't possible. Even when their stars align in terms of personnel, they'll still mix bad years with good, as 1-2 injuries (or a tough draw) will see them fall short.
So in my opinion it's got nothing to do with the rich getting richer.
Very true.
Hope is a huge factor. If there is none in the short term , then it is very hard to build anything and you get stuck in perpetual failure. The lad who is 50/50 about spending the summer in the US is less likely to go if he is on the cusp of making the Mayo team, than the guy badly needed on the Sligo team.
It's been a major problem in Leinster counties for the past number of years. Lads not committing to it , cos "what's the point - Dublin gonna hammer us". I've heard this from lads in my own club, who have turned down the county manager. There might be an improvement in this now with Dublin's perceived weakening.
If all the best players in Meath and Kildare etc cut out the "whats the point" attitude, they could very quickly make the Leinster championship interesting again. Confidence is a huge thing.
Absolutely.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 22, 2021, 07:19:19 AM
The reason for Sligo's performance levels in the early noughties is the same as Fermanagh's of the same era, and Tipperary last year. It's what happens when a couple of the best players in the country (O'Hara, Breheny. Owens, McGrath. Quinlivan, Sweeney) marry with a handful of really good ones, and between them they get the best of out everyone else... to the point that lads who would otherwise have had a blasé attitude about playing county football, throw everything they have into the mix for a couple of seasons.
A small county / non football county maintaining that level of performance isn't possible. Even when their stars align in terms of personnel, they'll still mix bad years with good, as 1-2 injuries (or a tough draw) will see them fall short.
So in my opinion it's got nothing to do with the rich getting richer.
Had the 2002 and 2020 championships been run on League lines, Sligo and Tipperary would have been nowhere.
Read your line "maintaining that level of performance isn't possible" back to yourself.
Sligo - and Fermanagh - and Wexford - got where they did i) because championship was on the day and ii) they had been exposed to very good football in a more equitably spread league, thus they had a much higher standard of regular football under their belts - which enabled them to exploit weakness in good opponents like Tyrone and Armagh when it came down to it on key championship days.
Tipperary won Munster in 2020 because Cork caught Kerry with a sucker punch with no comeback, and then Tipperary caught Cork with a classic on the day performance. That's what can happen in knockout football.
And even at that, Tipperary's Munster title - and Cavan's Ulster title for that matter - was likely only enabled by the chaos introduced to the situation by the pandemic.
A championship run on a league basis
only suits the strong counties because they are the only counties who can maintain consistent performance levels when everybody in a division is playing each other.
2 reasons why Sligo, Fermanagh plus Limerick and Wexford too if memory serves me correctly did well in the early noughties-
They had a decent set of players and the Qualifiers got them free of the Provincial straitjackets.
Sligo subsequently won a Connacht while the other 3 got to Provincial Finals .
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 11:15:49 AM
2 reasons why Sligo, Fermanagh plus Limerick and Wexford too if memory serves me correctly did well in the early noughties-
They had a decent set of players and the Qualifiers got them free of the Provincial straitjackets.
Sligo subsequently won a Connacht while the other 3 got to Provincial Finals .
Good formats won't win you anything, but they will give you the chance to compete if you can get yourself organised. They will give you the platform to develop a decent set of players who will commit. And at a good level. That's the point.
League and championship formats in the 2000s gave those counties hope.
Remember the Super 8s came in, an experiment with an elitist League format. Which counties did they suit?
What did the Super 8s do for, say, Roscommon? They were fodder.
Quote from: shark on September 22, 2021, 08:40:58 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 22, 2021, 07:19:19 AM
The reason for Sligo's performance levels in the early noughties is the same as Fermanagh's of the same era, and Tipperary last year. It's what happens when a couple of the best players in the country (O'Hara, Breheny. Owens, McGrath. Quinlivan, Sweeney) marry with a handful of really good ones, and between them they get the best of out everyone else... to the point that lads who would otherwise have had a blasé attitude about playing county football, throw everything they have into the mix for a couple of seasons.
A small county / non football county maintaining that level of performance isn't possible. Even when their stars align in terms of personnel, they'll still mix bad years with good, as 1-2 injuries (or a tough draw) will see them fall short.
So in my opinion it's got nothing to do with the rich getting richer.
Very true.
Hope is a huge factor. If there is none in the short term , then it is very hard to build anything and you get stuck in perpetual failure. The lad who is 50/50 about spending the summer in the US is less likely to go if he is on the cusp of making the Mayo team, than the guy badly needed on the Sligo team.
It's been a major problem in Leinster counties for the past number of years. Lads not committing to it , cos "what's the point - Dublin gonna hammer us". I've heard this from lads in my own club, who have turned down the county manager. There might be an improvement in this now with Dublin's perceived weakening.
I think this is where a lot of counties are issue wise. I actually think covid has helped because people have less scope to travel so "lesser" counties get more commitment but how many county threads do you go into here where people are lamenting the best players not commiting.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 12:44:07 AM
Sligo had better players back then.
They've had reasonable under age teams last few years and with good management will work their way back up the rankings again.
I see they're putting a "development squad" or 18/19 years together which will hopefully make them competitive at a decent level again.
The qualifiers started off well but lapsed into the ancien regime as Kerry and Dublin mopped up
most of the Sams going
Giving the hoors a second chance was the weakness.
Either money or lending players to the weaker counties or a combination will bridge the gap.
Nothing else will.
The GAA's natural conservatism means it stuggles to address the problems which beset the organisation.
Quote from: sid waddell on September 22, 2021, 11:39:37 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 11:15:49 AM
2 reasons why Sligo, Fermanagh plus Limerick and Wexford too if memory serves me correctly did well in the early noughties-
They had a decent set of players and the Qualifiers got them free of the Provincial straitjackets.
Sligo subsequently won a Connacht while the other 3 got to Provincial Finals .
What did the Super 8s do for, say, Roscommon? They were fodder.
We got to a knock out Qtr Final in 2017 and were destroyed in a replay.
We weren't near good enough for Dublin, Mayowestros or Tyrone at the cutting edge end of the Championship 2017 to 2019.
We weren't good enough for NFL D1 in 17, 19 and 21.
Quote from: seafoid on September 22, 2021, 11:50:18 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 12:44:07 AM
Sligo had better players back then.
They've had reasonable under age teams last few years and with good management will work their way back up the rankings again.
I see they're putting a "development squad" or 18/19 years together which will hopefully make them competitive at a decent level again.
The qualifiers started off well but lapsed into the ancien regime as Kerry and Dublin mopped up
most of the Sams going
Giving the hoors a second chance was the weakness.
Either money or lending players to the weaker counties or a combination will bridge the gap.
Nothing else will.
The GAA's natural conservatism means it stuggles to address the problems which beset the organisation.
Kerry's route was more difficult when Cork were one of the top teams from 2008 to 2012.
2008 was the first year back of the Divisions 1-4 League format. It took a few years for the stark inequalities of that format to properly make themselves felt in the game as a whole.
The rug started to be pulled up from around 2011 onwards. Surprise All-Ireland semi-finalists or even finalists were a regularity before that - and they could hope to compete. Not so much since then.
From 2011 onwards, the championship has been the preserve of elite teams only. Five times since 2013 the last four has been Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Tyrone. Cork and Donegal started off the decade as part of that elite set but steadily fell away to varying degrees as the decade wore on, Cork sunk completely, Donegal are still sort of on the fringes of the elite. Kildare started off the decade on the fringes of the elite, but fell away quickly.
Interlopers to the last four have been rare and they usually get brutally exposed if they do reach that stage.
The question is
why all that happened.
My proposal for what it's worth. Means every game means something as even a simple move for London from bottom of Div 4 to second last would have resulted in a first round tie with Cavan, and not Kerry. A ranking/seeding system that promotes winning the other tournaments, and ends in straight knockout championship for Sam. I used 2020 as we did not run normal leagues in 2021.
Proposed Ranking based on 2020 League and Provincials for 2020 All-Ireland stages
1 Div 1 winner Kerry
2 Ulster Champ Cavan (Provincials will rotate in rankings each year)
3 Munster Champ Tipperaray
4 Connacht Champ Mayo
5 Leinster Champ Dublin
6 Div 2 Winner Roscommon
7 Div 3 Winner Cork
8 Div 4 Winner Limerick
9 Ulster 2nd Donegal
Munster 2nd Cork rank skipped as duplicate (everyone below moves up)
10 Conn 2nd Galway
11 Lein 2nd Meath
Div 1 2nd Dublin rank skipped as duplicate (everyone below moves up)
12 Div 2 2nd Armagh
13 Div 3 2nd Down
14 Div 4 2nd Wicklow
Rest based on league standings
15 Tyrone
16 Monaghan
17 Kildare
18 Westmeath
19 Laois
20 Clare
21 Fermanagh
22 Derry
23 Longford
24 Offaly
25 Leitrim
26 Louth
27 Antrim
28 Wexford
29 Carlow
30 Sligo
31 Waterford
32 London
Straight knockout from here based on rankings: (this would leave 5 rounds of straight knockout after Provincials, which was the same number of games played under the super 8's, except all games mean something)
Round 1
1v32 = A Kerry v London
2v31 = B Cavan v Waterford
3v30 = C Tipperary v Sligo
4v29 = D Mayo v Carlow
5v28 = E Dublin v Wexford
6v27 = F Roscommon v Antrim
7v26 = G Cork v Louth
8v25 = H Limerick v Leitrim
9v24 = I Donegal v Offaly
10v23 = J Galway v Longford
11v22 = K Meath v Derry
12v21 = L Armagh v Fermanagh
13v20 = M Down v Clare
14v19 = N Wicklow v Laois
15v18 = O Tyrone v Westmeath
16v17 = P Monaghan v Kildare
Projected rd 2
A v P Kerry v Monaghan
B v O Cavan v Tyrone
C v N Tipp v Laois
D v M Mayo v Down
E v L Dub v Armagh
F v K Ros v Derry
G v J Cork v Galway
H v I Limerick v Donegal
Projected QF
Kerry v Tyrone
Mayo v Tipp
Dub v Ros
Gal v Donegal
Projected SF
Tyrone v Mayo
Dub v Donegal
Projected Final
Tyrone v Dublin
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 12:07:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 22, 2021, 11:39:37 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 11:15:49 AM
2 reasons why Sligo, Fermanagh plus Limerick and Wexford too if memory serves me correctly did well in the early noughties-
They had a decent set of players and the Qualifiers got them free of the Provincial straitjackets.
Sligo subsequently won a Connacht while the other 3 got to Provincial Finals .
What did the Super 8s do for, say, Roscommon? They were fodder.
We got to a knock out Qtr Final in 2017 and were destroyed in a replay.
We weren't near good enough for Dublin, Mayowestros or Tyrone at the cutting edge end of the Championship 2017 to 2019.
We weren't good enough for NFL D1 in 17, 19 and 21.
Roscommon came within a kick of a ball of an All-Ireland semi-final in 2017. They drew with Mayo. On a given day, they almost won - and if memory serves, should have won.
They were smashed in the replay but that's been an age old story for less fancied teams throughout history. You rarely get a second bite at the cherry.
The point is Roscommon could at least go into that All-Ireland quarter-final with genuine hope they could compete - it was on the day, you only need one good performance to pull it off.
And they beat Mayo "on the day" in 2019. And Galway because it was "on the day".
In the 2018 and 2019 Super 8s, Roscommon knew they would have to win two matches against top five teams, and they knew they wouldn't. Psychologically, they were bet before the Super 8s had even started.
Seanie I get your point, but I think it's a symptom rather than the cause.
Participation in senior county football, for a lot of people, creates a complicated dynamic due to the commitment involved. And the championship returns for a squad player in a weaker county realistically have to be minimal. Liatroim this season being the obvious recent example.
But from what I can gather, most of these weaker counties don't have trouble gathering up a squad for the national league. It's requires a short, sharp, burst of 3, maybe 4 months with the various pay-offs of genuinely competitive football, the ability to accurately gauge your level, an opportunity to win something, local media attention and praise.... and only a minor/trivial impact on their plans and aspirations for the club season.
They want league football. It suits them. And should a couple of unusually gifted players arrive on the scene in short succession, they will want to use this opportunity to go up a grade or two.
The back door system (and the super 8s) ruined championship football for those counties waiting for an unusual talent or two to appear. Pull together hard, pull off a surprise and knock over a D1 team, and what's the reward? Probably another D1 team. While the team you've beaten, still hang around. They're not beaten at all... just resting. Even the most belligerent and blinkered D4 player knows what's coming. It's a stay of execution. Getting motivated to go through that again, when you know deep inside that the talent gap is too wide, is really a form of masochism.
——
But the good thing about allowing the D3 champions and D4 a place in the playoffs, is that should a team at those levels unearth a gem or two, they get a "straight to go" pass into knockout football to see where they're at, and based on Fermanagh / Sligo / Wexford / Tipp over the past few decades, might pull out a few roots on the way.
Most years this won't happen to be fair.
Sid that draw v Mayowestros in 17 was because they kicked their usual plenty of wides and we rescued a draw with a late difficult free by Donie Smith.
We hadn't the fitness or S&C levels for anither big game 8 days later.
Not to mention a few ridiculous team selections by our then manager.
Our 2019 win over them in Connacht was a wonderful night and will live long in the memory.....but their 17 wides saved us.
How much did this year's massacres by the Rhubarbs improve Sligo and Leitrim by?
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 01:03:32 PM
Sid that draw v Mayowestros in 17 was because they kicked their usual plenty of wides and we rescued a draw with a late difficult free by Donie Smith.
We hadn't the fitness or S&C levels for anither big game 8 days later.
Not to mention a few ridiculous team selections by our then manager.
Our 2019 win over them in Connacht was a wonderful night and will live long in the memory.....but their 17 wides saved us.
How much did this year's massacres by the Rhubarbs improve Sligo and Leitrim by?
Again, Roscommon could hope to compete in an on the day situation. They can't hope to compete in a League situation.
Of course Sligo and Leitrim's hammerings by Mayo didn't improve them.
And neither will the hammering taken by the Division 4 winner by a Division 2 team in this proposed new League as Championship format.
What improved Sligo in the 2000s was being exposed to a
regular good standard of football. You can't compete unless you're getting regular good football.
If, hypothetically, Mayo were forcibly consigned to Division 4 for three years as a result of hypothetical financial irregularities, do you think they'd be competing with Dublin by the end of those three years?
Of course they wouldn't. They'd be bet out the gate.
Talking sense there Sid.
Does Sids theorem work in reverse?
Put Laythrum in Div 1 for 3 years and they'll win Sam.....?????
Anyway well let the wise old elders of the GAA decide at Congress in October.
I suspect we'll be back to the 2017 system with the Tommy Tailteann.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 02:12:58 PM
Does Sids theorem work in reverse?
Put Laythrum in Div 1 for 3 years and they'll win Sam.....?????
Anyway well let the wise old elders of the GAA decide at Congress in October.
I suspect we'll be back to the 2017 system with the Tommy Tailteann.
But I never said if you put Leitrim in the current League Division 1 that they'd win Sam, or contend for it.
And you know I never said that or anything remotely like it.
You just substituted in a lowest common denominator absurdity in the absence of a real reply to my point.
Let's have a look at how Proposal B might work out. The NFL 2022 is constituted as follows. I've placed each team position-wise for argument's sake.
Division 1
1 Dublin
2 Kerry
3 Tyrone
4 Mayo
5 Donegal
6 Monaghan
7 Armagh
8 Kildare
Division 2
1 Galway
2 Meath
3 Derry
4 Cork
5 Roscommon
6 Down
7 Clare
8 Offaly
Division 3
1 Westmeath
2 Laois
3 Louth
4 Fermanagh
5 Antrim
6 Longford
7 Limerick
8 Wicklow
Division 4
1 Cavan
2 Tipperary
3 Sligo
4 Wexford
5 Carlow
6 Leitrim
7 Waterford
The 2022 All-Ireland Football final will presumably be scheduled for July 17th - based on July 18th being the original date for the 2021 final before Covid intervened in the early part of the year.
With a two week gap between each knockout round and the end of the League, this would push the first knockout round back to June 5th, and the final round of the league phase itself back to May 22nd.
Your league dates would probably be: April 3rd, April 10th, April 17th, April 24th, May 8th, May 15th, May 22nd.
The newly watered down "Provincial Championships" would be pushed into February and March, with finals around mid-March, perhaps with some of them on St. Patrick's Day. We could expect a similar scenario in these provincial finals as has happened in the knockout rounds of the League in recent years with teams not going full tilt.
Our ten qualifiers for the knockout rounds of the All-Ireland are:
1 Dublin
2 Kerry
3 Tyrone
4 Mayo
5 Donegal
6 Galway
7 Meath
8 Derry
9 Westmeath
10 Cavan
Qualifiers 1 to 6 get a bye to the quarter-finals so our first knockout round on the weekend of June 4th and 5th is as follows:
Tie A: 7 Meath v 10 Cavan
Tie B: 8 Derry v 9 Westmeath
Quarter-finals on June 18th/19th:
1 Dublin v Winner Tie B (Derry)
2 Kerry v Winner Tie A (Meath)
3 Tyrone v 6 Galway
4 Mayo v 5 Donegal
Semi-finals on July 2nd/3rd:
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Tyrone
Final on July 17th:
Dublin v Kerry
You'd then have your rebranded Tommy Murphy Cup made up of the following 13 teams:
Laois
Louth
Fermanagh
Antrim
Longford
Limerick
Wicklow
Tipperary
Sligo
Wexford
Carlow
Leitrim
Waterford
First round on June 4th/5th
Quarter-finals: June 18th/19th
Semi-Finals: July 2nd/3rd
Final: July 17th
It's a very rationalised AFL type structure. The big occasions of the provincial finals and championship ties between local rivals are gone. Most of the football is being played at a bad time of the year with many counter attractions in wider sport. I don't like the prospect of this at all.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 02:12:58 PM
Does Sids theorem work in reverse?
Put Laythrum in Div 1 for 3 years and they'll win Sam.....?????
Anyway well let the wise old elders of the GAA decide at Congress in October.
I suspect we'll be back to the 2017 system with the Tommy Tailteann.
I'll be pleased if it does but I'll be surprised if that happens. Not a mention of it in media all the talk is about the league style championship format while turning provincial championship into glorified pre season competition and it only needs 60% of the vote to become a reality.
League is our only fair competition, leave it stand alone. At the end of the league draw 4 groups for championship, 2 teams from each division in groups of 8.
ie group 1 play for nestor cup open draw no backdoor, first round only over 2 leg home and away, group 1 Monaghan, Mayo, Offaly, Cork, Laois, Westmeath, Sligo Waterford.
Each group plays for one of the current provincial trophys, 4 winners straight to semi-final,
before long you could have a player playing to complete his set of medals ie nestor anglo celt etc.
Quote from: sid waddell on September 22, 2021, 02:58:59 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 02:12:58 PM
Does Sids theorem work in reverse?
Put Laythrum in Div 1 for 3 years and they'll win Sam.....?????
Anyway well let the wise old elders of the GAA decide at Congress in October.
I suspect we'll be back to the 2017 system with the Tommy Tailteann.
But I never said if you put Leitrim in the current League Division 1 that they'd win Sam, or contend for it.
And you know I never said that or anything remotely like it.
You just substituted in a lowest common denominator absurdity in the absence of a real reply to my point.
I just asked a question based on your logic and cleverly exposed the daftness of your theorem.
Blowitup...I suspect the opposition if the influential Provincial Councols will probably scupper proposal B.
For it will be
the Hurley Counties who won't give a toss about football
The bigger successful Counties who will go with "Head Office" and will be chasing National honours no matter what system
Overseas delegates who will also vote with HQ.
Would any serious hurling person advocate abolishing the Munster Hurling final?
Why would any serious football person in Ulster, or anywhere for that matter, advocate abolishing the Ulster football final and the Ulster Championship?
I still don't see how anyone can contend that getting 7 championship games at their level wont improve teams and encourage players to commit. Sure the D4 winner might get a tanking in a QF but that's sport, tough shit like. The 7 games should be bringing them on.
Quote from: sid waddell on September 22, 2021, 04:35:01 PM
Would any serious hurling person advocate abolishing the Munster Hurling final?
Why would any serious football person in Ulster, or anywhere for that matter, advocate abolishing the Ulster football final and the Ulster Championship?
The time of year of these proposals is the No1 problem I have with them. Play the provincials over April/May, Play the championship after them. A game a week, no ballsing about.
The 7 game league (no need for finals) is the best format the GAA have and a tiered system already in place. Instead of making that competition more important and of a bigger interest to players and supporters HQ are going to give us a dogs dinner of a format as Sid has outlined in that option B proposal.
Too much of a ask for the grey haired men in suits to come up with a plan of having two important competitions in one year?
Quote from: sid waddell on September 22, 2021, 04:35:01 PM
Would any serious hurling person advocate abolishing the Munster Hurling final?
Why would any serious football person in Ulster, or anywhere for that matter, advocate abolishing the Ulster football final and the Ulster Championship?
Keep it for sure. But Tyrone deserve to be further on in the championship after winning Ulster than Kerry or Dublin do for sleepwalking through their provincials.
Who advocated abolishing the Provincial Championship or the Provincial Finals?
Isn't proposal B keeping them in watered down format with Finals??
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 05:15:39 PM
Who advocated abolishing the Provincial Championship or the Provincial Finals?
Isn't proposal B keeping them in watered down format with Finals??
Yes but played in Spring time according to Sid there.
Tyrone 3
Dublin 3
Kerry 3
Derry 1
Quote from: Solo_run on September 22, 2021, 05:35:30 PM
Tyrone 3
Dublin 3
Kerry 3
Derry 1
:o.. I gotta han it to you solo, good man
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2021, 05:15:39 PM
Who advocated abolishing the Provincial Championship or the Provincial Finals?
Isn't proposal B keeping them in watered down format with Finals??
Which is effectively abolishing them. An Ulster final played on March 13th and which does not tie into the Championship as a whole isn't the Ulster final. It's the McKenna Cup final.
Fogarty hinting neither proposals A or B will get 60% of the vote.
He's usually on the ball with HQ's thinking....
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40704122.html
Quote from: sid waddell on September 22, 2021, 04:35:01 PM
Would any serious hurling person advocate abolishing the Munster Hurling final?
Why would any serious football person in Ulster, or anywhere for that matter, advocate abolishing the Ulster football final and the Ulster Championship?
Is there any serious hurling person advocating the reinstatement of the Connacht hurling final? If it had been around for the last 10 years it wouldn't have been that much less competitive than the Leinster football championship.
Do the proposals seek to abolish the Ulster championship? To quote a wise poster, I hope you are not:
"You just substituted in a lowest common denominator absurdity in the absence of a real reply"
As far as I'm aware, the proposal is to run it separately so teams can still have a run at it, but while also leveling the playing field for Ulster counties when it comes to fighting for Sam.
There seems to be a consensus among those against the league system that provincial titles will mean nothing if not directly linked with progression to the All Ireland semi finals (or quarter-finals). I'm really not sure that's true. But if it is, it doesn't say a whole lot for retaining them. Tyrone v Armagh in a QF in the proposed system would still be a massive game to the players and fans involved.
Quote from: Hound on September 23, 2021, 10:18:20 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 22, 2021, 04:35:01 PM
Would any serious hurling person advocate abolishing the Munster Hurling final?
Why would any serious football person in Ulster, or anywhere for that matter, advocate abolishing the Ulster football final and the Ulster Championship?
Is there any serious hurling person advocating the reinstatement of the Connacht hurling final? If it had been around for the last 10 years it wouldn't have been that much less competitive than the Leinster football championship.
Do the proposals seek to abolish the Ulster championship? To quote a wise poster, I hope you are not:
"You just substituted in a lowest common denominator absurdity in the absence of a real reply"
As far as I'm aware, the proposal is to run it separately so teams can still have a run at it, but while also leveling the playing field for Ulster counties when it comes to fighting for Sam.
There seems to be a consensus among those against the league system that provincial titles will mean nothing if not directly linked with progression to the All Ireland semi finals (or quarter-finals). I'm really not sure that's true. But if it is, it doesn't say a whole lot for retaining them. Tyrone v Armagh in a QF in the proposed system would still be a massive game to the players and fans involved.
But sure
you've just substituted in a lowest denominator absurdity in the absence of a real argument.
The lowest common denominator absurdity is to compare the Connacht Hurling Final, a match which has taken place on six occasions over the last century, all in the 1990s, with the Munster Hurling Final, one of the biggest occasions in the hurling year ever since the game started being played on an organised basis.
Do you not see how absurd and lowest common denominator this is?
It's also an absurd, lowest common denominator, gaslighting exercise to claim that a standalone "Ulster Football Championship", played in February and March, will retain its prestige.
There is a short answer to that. It will not.
I mean it's in the proposal itself. It calls them "pre-season competitions". They'll have all the prestige of the McKenna Cup, the O'Byrne Cup, the FBD League, the Makita International tournament and a pre-season friendly between Shamrock Rovers and Djurgarden.
Provincial finals in high summer have massive value as occasions, in terms of selling the game, in terms of prestige, in terms of history, in terms of being genuinely something for mid-ranking teams to aim at. To throw that away for a rationalised, deeply predictable league with masses of empty spaces in the crowd, where all those occasions are lost forever, is madness.
Quote from: Hound on September 23, 2021, 10:18:20 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 22, 2021, 04:35:01 PM
Would any serious hurling person advocate abolishing the Munster Hurling final?
Why would any serious football person in Ulster, or anywhere for that matter, advocate abolishing the Ulster football final and the Ulster Championship?
There seems to be a consensus among those against the league system that provincial titles will mean nothing if not directly linked with progression to the All Ireland semi finals (or quarter-finals). I'm really not sure that's true. But if it is, it doesn't say a whole lot for retaining them.
Indeed.
If they can't stand on their own 2 feet they can't be that vital.
Problem with them linking to AI Championship is the 11/9/7/6 participants; unfairness on Ulster Counties; the sleepwalk past hurling Counties to AI series for Kerry: the Dublin monopoly of Leinster and a Connacht County can get to the last 12 with 1 game against a D4 team.
A possible compromise on Proposal B would be to play the Provincials in traditional knock out format during the NFL- like soccer cup competitions, with certain weekends (4 required) set aside for them.
Kerry 4
Dublin 4
Mayo 1 (when yer man dies)
Donegal 1
Quote from: sid waddell on September 23, 2021, 10:49:16 AM
The lowest common denominator absurdity is to compare the Connacht Hurling Final, a match which has taken place on six occasions over the last century, all in the 1990s, with the Munster Hurling Final, one of the biggest occasions in the hurling year ever since the game started being played on an organised basis.
Yep good man, that's exactly what I did ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Rossfan on September 23, 2021, 11:24:45 AM
Quote from: Hound on September 23, 2021, 10:18:20 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 22, 2021, 04:35:01 PM
Would any serious hurling person advocate abolishing the Munster Hurling final?
Why would any serious football person in Ulster, or anywhere for that matter, advocate abolishing the Ulster football final and the Ulster Championship?
There seems to be a consensus among those against the league system that provincial titles will mean nothing if not directly linked with progression to the All Ireland semi finals (or quarter-finals). I'm really not sure that's true. But if it is, it doesn't say a whole lot for retaining them.
Indeed.
If they can't stand on their own 2 feet they can't be that vital.
Problem with them linking to AI Championship is the 11/9/7/6 participants; unfairness on Ulster Counties; the sleepwalk past hurling Counties to AI series for Kerry: the Dublin monopoly of Leinster and a Connacht County can get to the last 12 with 1 game against a D4 team.
A possible compromise on Proposal B would be to play the Provincials in traditional knock out format during the NFL- like soccer cup competitions, with certain weekends (4 required) set aside for them.
Sure that's like saying if you separate World Cup qualifiers from the World Cup so that they're no longer World Cup qualifiers, and they can "no longer stand on their own two feet", they can't be that important.
I mean the NFL in America is a pointer as to how valuable the provincial championships are.
They have divisional titles - with the divisions always made up of the same teams, like the NFC East - it's always the New York Giants, the Philadelphia Eagles, the Washington whatever they're called nows, and the Dallas Cowboys. The NFL has eight of these divisional titles. Not every team can win the Superbowl, but every divisional title is an achievement in itself.
The point is that as well as being ends in and of themselves, divisional titles qualify you for the play-offs. They are all inextricably tied into the road to the Superbowl. 8 of the 12 play-off teams are divisional champions - there are four wild cards, the NFL's equivalent of back door qualifiers.
Then you have your Conference championships, which are the next step up from divisional championships.
If you removed the divisional and Conference championships from American football's NFL season and played them as pre-season competitions, do you think they'd matter anymore?
Quote from: Hound on September 23, 2021, 11:30:21 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 23, 2021, 10:49:16 AM
The lowest common denominator absurdity is to compare the Connacht Hurling Final, a match which has taken place on six occasions over the last century, all in the 1990s, with the Munster Hurling Final, one of the biggest occasions in the hurling year ever since the game started being played on an organised basis.
Yep good man, that's exactly what I did ;D ;D ;D ;D
As far as I can see it is. If not, explain what your point is?
The Connacht hurling final was played for six years in the 1990s between Galway and Roscommon, with Galway always winning by as much they wanted, each year in front of two men and a dog.
The most noteworthy thing to occur in one of these Connacht hurling finals was Joe Rabbitte nearly getting killed when a Roscommon player blindsided him with a full force strike of a hurley to the head.
Quote from: toby47 on September 23, 2021, 11:26:41 AM
Kerry 4
Dublin 4
Mayo 1 (when yer man dies)
Donegal 1
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: sid waddell on September 23, 2021, 11:47:38 AM
Quote from: Hound on September 23, 2021, 11:30:21 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 23, 2021, 10:49:16 AM
The lowest common denominator absurdity is to compare the Connacht Hurling Final, a match which has taken place on six occasions over the last century, all in the 1990s, with the Munster Hurling Final, one of the biggest occasions in the hurling year ever since the game started being played on an organised basis.
Yep good man, that's exactly what I did ;D ;D ;D ;D
As far as I can see it is. If not, explain what your point is?
The Connacht hurling final was played for six years in the 1990s between Galway and Roscommon, with Galway always winning by as much they wanted, each year in front of two men and a dog.
The most noteworthy thing to occur in one of these Connacht hurling finals was Joe Rabbitte nearly getting killed when a Roscommon player blindsided him with a full force strike of a hurley to the head.
I remember that. Think yer man lost the head and hit Rabbitte on the back of the head with the hurl, knocking him out. Could have killed him
Quote from: JoG2 on September 22, 2021, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: Solo_run on September 22, 2021, 05:35:30 PM
Tyrone 3
Dublin 3
Kerry 3
Derry 1
:o.. I gotta han it to you solo, good man
They are certainly not going backwards after a few years in free fall. They will over take Armagh in the next two years and I think we will see a competitive Tyrone and Derry rivalry.
Monaghan 1
Tyrone 2
Dublin 4
Kerry 2
Donegal 1
I don't feel confident that Donegal will win another AI in the next 10 years, but I would be confident that were we to win one, we'd win at least another one. If we can figure out how to utilise the talent we have, and to make a break through to the top table, I think we'd hang around for a while and win a couple. But that break through is looking less and less likely unfortunately.
Mayo 2
Kerry 3
Dublin 2
Tyrone 2
Armagh 1 ;)
Tyrone 4
Kerry 3
Dublin 3
All saying Dublin will win 3 or 4, I don't think they will, if they don't win next year or year after, I foresee some years in the doldrums.
Offaly anyone in 5 -10 years?
If Derry could get Brown home from Australia and get one year were they dont kill each other and pull together could see them about 2024 or 2025 getting one.
Dublin 5
Kerry 3
Meath 1
Cork 1
When will we know which nonsense championship format the big chiefs will adopt for next year?
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 24, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
All saying Dublin will win 3 or 4, I don't think they will, if they don't win next year or year after, I foresee some years in the doldrums.
Offaly anyone in 5 -10 years?
Based on them winning the U20 AI? The days of counties of Offaly size and resources even reaching a senior All-Ireland final is very rare nowadays. Also Offaly are working from a very low base, have been a Div 3 team for a number of years.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 24, 2021, 02:19:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 24, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
All saying Dublin will win 3 or 4, I don't think they will, if they don't win next year or year after, I foresee some years in the doldrums.
Offaly anyone in 5 -10 years?
Based on them winning the U20 AI? The days of counties of Offaly size and resources even reaching a senior All-Ireland final is very rare nowadays. Also Offaly are working from a very low base, have been a Div 3 team for a number of years.
More chance of getting a tar barrel into space powered by a kids water pistol.
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 24, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
All saying Dublin will win 3 or 4, I don't think they will, if they don't win next year or year after, I foresee some years in the doldrums.
Offaly anyone in 5 -10 years?
I'll have what you're having! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: RedHand88 on September 24, 2021, 03:08:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 24, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
All saying Dublin will win 3 or 4, I don't think they will, if they don't win next year or year after, I foresee some years in the doldrums.
Offaly anyone in 5 -10 years?
I'll have what you're having! ;D ;D ;D
Any mention of Derry, Offaly or Monaghan can't be taken seriously.
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 24, 2021, 03:24:41 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on September 24, 2021, 03:08:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 24, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
All saying Dublin will win 3 or 4, I don't think they will, if they don't win next year or year after, I foresee some years in the doldrums.
Offaly anyone in 5 -10 years?
I'll have what you're having! ;D ;D ;D
Any mention of Derry, Offaly or Monaghan can't be taken seriously.
Are Derry or Monaghan in any worse condition than Donegal were in 2010?
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 24, 2021, 03:24:41 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on September 24, 2021, 03:08:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 24, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
All saying Dublin will win 3 or 4, I don't think they will, if they don't win next year or year after, I foresee some years in the doldrums.
Offaly anyone in 5 -10 years?
I'll have what you're having! ;D ;D ;D
Any mention of Derry, Offaly or Monaghan can't be taken seriously.
You can add Armagh to that group.
No AI in them either
Quote from: StephenC on September 24, 2021, 08:30:13 AM
I don't feel confident that Donegal will win another AI in the next 10 years, but I would be confident that were we to win one, we'd win at least another one. If we can figure out how to utilise the talent we have, and to make a break through to the top table, I think we'd hang around for a while and win a couple. But that break through is looking less and less likely unfortunately.
I think its unlikely, especially if we don't do it in the next two or three years before Murphy is done.
Defense just isn't good enough.
I'll be happy if we add a few Ulsters and maybe make a semi or two.
Quote from: Taylor on September 24, 2021, 03:29:46 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 24, 2021, 03:24:41 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on September 24, 2021, 03:08:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 24, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
All saying Dublin will win 3 or 4, I don't think they will, if they don't win next year or year after, I foresee some years in the doldrums.
Offaly anyone in 5 -10 years?
I'll have what you're having! ;D ;D ;D
Any mention of Derry, Offaly or Monaghan can't be taken seriously.
You can add Armagh to that group.
No AI in them either
Yeah you're probably right , but a lot can happen in 10 years of football. Look at where we were in '96, and within 10 years we had won the AI, NFL, 6 Ulster's and been to another AI final and 3 semis .
Quote from: Cunny Funt on September 24, 2021, 02:19:57 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 24, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
All saying Dublin will win 3 or 4, I don't think they will, if they don't win next year or year after, I foresee some years in the doldrums.
Offaly anyone in 5 -10 years?
The days of counties of Offaly size and resources even reaching a senior All-Ireland final is very rare nowadays.
True sadly and hasn't happened for many a day.
Last 3 were Offaly 1982, Ros 1980 and Cavan 1952.
11 smaller Counties who will at best win a Provincial, a Div 2 or some future Intermediate AI:-
Cavan, Fermanagh, Monaghan, Sligo Leitrim, Ros, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois and Carlow.
Throw in hurling Counties Clare, Tipperary, Limerick Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny.
Add London, Wicklow, Louth and Antrim.
Quote from: J70 on September 24, 2021, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: StephenC on September 24, 2021, 08:30:13 AM
I don't feel confident that Donegal will win another AI in the next 10 years, but I would be confident that were we to win one, we'd win at least another one. If we can figure out how to utilise the talent we have, and to make a break through to the top table, I think we'd hang around for a while and win a couple. But that break through is looking less and less likely unfortunately.
I think its unlikely, especially if we don't do it in the next two or three years before Murphy is done.
Defense just isn't good enough.
I'll be happy if we add a few Ulsters and maybe make a semi or two.
Yeah, that's fair. And of course perspective is everything ... a few Ulsters and an AI SF or two would have seemed like a dream 11 years ago
Be interesting to see what Donegal become when Murphy quits.
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 25, 2021, 01:13:44 PM
Be interesting to see what Donegal become when Murphy quits.
Hopefully they'll drop off a right bit and same with Monaghan and McManus
Quote from: BennyCake on September 24, 2021, 03:29:26 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 24, 2021, 03:24:41 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on September 24, 2021, 03:08:03 PM
Quote from: TheGreatest on September 24, 2021, 12:44:50 PM
All saying Dublin will win 3 or 4, I don't think they will, if they don't win next year or year after, I foresee some years in the doldrums.
Offaly anyone in 5 -10 years?
I'll have what you're having! ;D ;D ;D
Any mention of Derry, Offaly or Monaghan can't be taken seriously.
Are Derry or Monaghan in any worse condition than Donegal were in 2010?
Not really, but the difference is the top teams are much much better.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2021, 03:53:19 PM
11 smaller Counties who will at best win a Provincial, a Div 2 or some future Intermediate AI:-
Cavan, Fermanagh, Monaghan, Sligo Leitrim, Ros, Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois and Carlow.
Throw in hurling Counties Clare, Tipperary, Limerick Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny.
carlow will be lucky to be in the Intermediate championship, they might win a Junior, unless they improve.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2021, 01:06:05 PM
Dublin 5
Kerry 3
Meath 1
Cork 1
Rossfan thinks we're going to do a Donegal, with our single 2021 Championship -- don't think so bud! :P ;)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 25, 2021, 09:56:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2021, 01:06:05 PM
Dublin 5
Kerry 3
Meath 1
Cork 1
Rossfan thinks we're going to do a Donegal, with our single 2021 Championship -- don't think so bud! :P ;)
Take care when predicting ten years in advance as the bookies don't fancy your chances of winning the next one, never mind any beyond that.
I was shocked to find that both Paddy Power re offering at the minute odds of Dublin triumphing at odds of 11/8. Kerry are second place at 6/4 with Tyrone and Mayo next, tied on 9/1.
Betfair is giving the same odds.
I can't make head nor tails of this.
Tbh I think those odds seem about right.
I think it's pretty obvious that Dublin would be favourites next year followed by Tyrone, Kerry/Mayo.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on September 26, 2021, 07:09:53 AM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 25, 2021, 09:56:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2021, 01:06:05 PM
Dublin 5
Kerry 3
Meath 1
Cork 1
Rossfan thinks we're going to do a Donegal, with our single 2021 Championship -- don't think so bud! :P ;)
Take care when predicting ten years in advance as the bookies don't fancy your chances of winning the next one, never mind any beyond that.
I was shocked to find that both Paddy Power re offering at the minute odds of Dublin triumphing at odds of 11/8. Kerry are second place at 6/4 with Tyrone and Mayo next, tied on 9/1.
Betfair is giving the same odds.
I can't make head nor tails of this.
Yeah, the odds are rather curious, to say the least. Whatever our specific odds are right now, they're a good bit meaner than they were at the start of 2021 though.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 25, 2021, 09:56:56 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2021, 01:06:05 PM
Dublin 5
Kerry 3
Meath 1
Cork 1
Rossfan thinks we're going to do a Donegal, with our single 2021 Championship -- don't think so bud! :P ;)
Ahhh Fear ye shnaked one this year due to a lot of things aligning (like Dublin 95 e.g).
Dublin imploded, Kerry wouldn't accept a walkover, Murphy and Donegal did ye no harm , new management freshening things up, new more adventurous style of play, an experienced panel which was knocking around near the top table. ..
Tyrone would be longer odds than Kerry because of the province they have to go through though.
Dublin
Dublin
Dublin
Dublin
Derry
Dublin
Dublin
Kerry
Dublin
Galway
Quote from: Dire Ear on September 23, 2021, 11:54:02 AM
Quote from: toby47 on September 23, 2021, 11:26:41 AM
Kerry 4
Dublin 4
Mayo 1 (when yer man dies)
Donegal 1
Well.yer man died this morning according to RTE News so we'll have wait and see if Sam will be returning to Mayo anytime soon
;D ;D ;D
Paddy Prendergast RIP -- and there we were thinking Mayo lost the run of themselves pre-AIF beforehand FFS! :P ;)
Leaving aside the next ten winners..... are there any teams you think could reach the All Ireland final? Any potential dark horses?
Bearing in mind there have only been 8 different finalists in the last 20 finals, and only 14 different finalists in the last 60 years. And of that 14, Derry and Kildare only reached one final each.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 26, 2021, 02:05:22 PM
Paddy Prendergast RIP -- and there we were thinking Mayo lost the run of themselves pre-AIF beforehand FFS! :P ;)
Ah, some lose the run of themselves and think their the the bees knees before an AI and some think their set for world domination after.
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 26, 2021, 03:05:26 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 26, 2021, 02:05:22 PM
Paddy Prendergast RIP -- and there we were thinking Mayo lost the run of themselves pre-AIF beforehand FFS! :P ;)
Ah, some lose the run of themselves and think their the the bees knees before an AI and some think their set for world domination after.
Ah, sure thing, wouldn't begrudge in the slightest. Will there be more pressure now on the next Mayo team to make the AIF, would you say?
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 26, 2021, 04:12:07 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 26, 2021, 03:05:26 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 26, 2021, 02:05:22 PM
Paddy Prendergast RIP -- and there we were thinking Mayo lost the run of themselves pre-AIF beforehand FFS! :P ;)
Ah, some lose the run of themselves and think their the the bees knees before an AI and some think their set for world domination after.
Ah, sure thing, wouldn't begrudge in the slightest. Will there be more pressure now on the next Mayo team to make the AIF, would you say?
There is no pressure on Mayo! Nobody expects really. There will be pressure on Tyrone, as Tyrone expects.
I don't ever expect to see Mayo win an All-Ireland.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on September 26, 2021, 08:49:15 PM
I don't ever expect to see Mayo win an All-Ireland.
You are a young man Farr, there is still time for you.
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 26, 2021, 07:32:38 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 26, 2021, 04:12:07 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 26, 2021, 03:05:26 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on September 26, 2021, 02:05:22 PM
Paddy Prendergast RIP -- and there we were thinking Mayo lost the run of themselves pre-AIF beforehand FFS! :P ;)
Ah, some lose the run of themselves and think their the the bees knees before an AI and some think their set for world domination after.
Ah, sure thing, wouldn't begrudge in the slightest. Will there be more pressure now on the next Mayo team to make the AIF, would you say?
There is no pressure on Mayo! Nobody expects really. There will be pressure on Tyrone, as Tyrone expects.
More like too much expectation and pressure. Might eventually land a 4th senior All Ireland when you least expect it.
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 26, 2021, 12:44:44 PM
Tyrone would be longer odds than Kerry because of the province they have to go through though.
If Tyrone-Kerry had gone to a replay, Kerry would have been warm favourites.
First time winners defending an All Ireland is hard to do. Been 30 years since Meath then Cork did it in 87-90.
The Kerry 06/07 double team had won it in 2004. Took the Dubs until their third attempt at a double before they achieved it. And Limerick couldn't defend their hurling title the first time they won it either.
Probably correct to say, that's it harder again for an Ulster team. Although there will be some sort of backdoor next year, so one loss won't mean end of story.
60 years since an Ulster team retained the All-Ireland.
Quote from: sid waddell on September 27, 2021, 10:58:00 AM
60 years since an Ulster team retained the All-Ireland.
77 years since Roscommon retained an All Ireland. Way to long :)
Im happy enough to treat this year as a one off, at this point in time until about next July anyway...
If they win another one it will be great surely, but that is for next year and the following years. No guarantee of a bountiful run or decade until it happens.. but by God it is the best possible start... ;D
My money is on Mayo next year, with the Dubs and Kerry going to be snarling at everyone... Tyrone 4th favourites in my eyes.. Is it too early to say I don't think we got the respect we deserve for winning it.... ;)
Quote from: Rudi on September 27, 2021, 11:21:10 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 27, 2021, 10:58:00 AM
60 years since an Ulster team retained the All-Ireland.
77 years since Roscommon retained an All Ireland. Way to long :)
The good oul days :'(
5 of our 10 All Ireland were won in 6 glorious years.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 27, 2021, 11:34:15 AM
Quote from: Rudi on September 27, 2021, 11:21:10 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 27, 2021, 10:58:00 AM
60 years since an Ulster team retained the All-Ireland.
77 years since Roscommon retained an All Ireland. Way to long :)
The good oul days :'(
5 of our 10 All Ireland were won in 6 glorious years.
??
What grades are you talking about?
Minor 39,41,51,06.
Junior 1940 (then our first team!) and 2000
Senior 1943, 44.
U21 1966, 1978.
And we bet Kerry in Finals of all 4 grades.
Not many Counties can say that.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 27, 2021, 12:12:54 PM
Minor 39,41,51,06.
Junior 1940 (then our first team!) and 2000
Senior 1943, 44.
U21 1966, 1978.
And we bet Kerry in Finals of all 4 grades.
Not many Counties can say that.
Thats true, but Mayo could say they lost to them in all grades & probably throw in a good few more counties. ;D
Meath will have to win one. At least something to justify the mad work that gone into it the last few years. Otherwise we might just be mad altogether.
More positive developments at underage here:
https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2021/09/27/horgan-appointed-as-new-head-of-meath-football-development-2/
We are I think on the right path after a wobbly start to Andy's reign. Still a lot of work to do and deficit in talent to make up in the panel to be honest. Underage things are going better than ever and there's more that we can achieve still at those grades.
Not sure how much longer Andy is willing to go with the team and his successor within the county of far from obvious however.
Was talking to a very passionate Gaa man at the weekend giving out about RTE's and the south in general, looking down their noses at Ulster. Then he went unto state that since Ulster's re emergence in 91 of winning All Irelands, Ulster counties have been to 13 All Ireland finals winning 10 which a 33.3% win. Not a mention of it. I actually didn't realise that myself. Additionally he said if Fitzgerald or Stephen Cluxton had of hit the free Morgan did in the semifinal from the distance he hit it, they would be immortalising them. He said Morgans free is the greatest free in in Croke Park he ever saw, again forgotten about because its an Ulster team/player. Fair observations or not?
Of course it is fair to say that the Dubs are hyped up by the media.
However, but Maurice Fitzgerald also tormented us with free kicks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQjF_WdsCBk&t=50s
Quote from: Man Marker on September 27, 2021, 04:09:00 PM
Was talking to a very passionate Gaa man at the weekend giving out about RTE's and the south in general, looking down their noses at Ulster. Then he went unto state that since Ulster's re emergence in 91 of winning All Irelands, Ulster counties have been to 13 All Ireland finals winning 10 which a 33.3% win. Not a mention of it. I actually didn't realise that myself. Additionally he said if Fitzgerald or Stephen Cluxton had of hit the free Morgan did in the semifinal from the distance he hit it, they would be immortalising them. He said Morgans free is the greatest free in in Croke Park he ever saw, again forgotten about because its an Ulster team/player. Fair observations or not?
Ah, a load of nonsense really.
Ulster counties do like to be lumped together for some reason. Nobody would really lump the counties in the other provinces together and say how good or bad they are in finals. What does Tyrone being good in finals have to do with Armagh and Donegal?
And while the stat seems impressive at first glance (although I think it's 9 wins?), it completely ignores the many years when Ulster counties weren't good enough to reach a final, which therefore, they would have been unlikely to win had they got there. For example, in the Dublin 6 in a row, Ulster counties only lost 1 final. Whereas if Mayo and Kerry had not been around, and an Ulster county faced Dublin in all 6 finals, I think it may have wrecked the stat.
Morgan's point was super and was lauded from a height on both RTE and Sky at the time. Asking why a certain Maurice Fitzgerald point and a certain Stephen Cluxton point gets more credit is all about context. He should ask himself why Seamus Darby's goal is so highly lauded. It was hardly a masterpiece.
Quote from: Man Marker on September 27, 2021, 04:09:00 PM
Was talking to a very passionate Gaa man at the weekend giving out about RTE's and the south in general, looking down their noses at Ulster. Then he went unto state that since Ulster's re emergence in 91 of winning All Irelands, Ulster counties have been to 13 All Ireland finals winning 10 which a 33.3% win. Not a mention of it. I actually didn't realise that myself. Additionally he said if Fitzgerald or Stephen Cluxton had of hit the free Morgan did in the semifinal from the distance he hit it, they would be immortalising them. He said Morgans free is the greatest free in in Croke Park he ever saw, again forgotten about because its an Ulster team/player. Fair observations or not?
I presume this is a stereotype piss take ;D
Otherwise it's a strong contender for the 2021 "Nordie bag o' spuds on the shoulder" award.
Quote from: Hound on September 27, 2021, 04:32:02 PM
He should ask himself why Seamus Darby's goal is so highly lauded. It was hardly a masterpiece.
It was a great goal actually. Brilliant corner forward play to get himself in position to gather the ball and a brilliant finish on the turn. He did Tommy Doyle up like a kipper.
Will Dublin resume their dominance or will the peleton produce some winners ?
The factors that lead to the 6 in a row are still.there.
But at least Fenton has lost a championship match.
Quote from: rrhf on September 27, 2021, 11:22:12 AM
Im happy enough to treat this year as a one off, at this point in time until about next July anyway...
If they win another one it will be great surely, but that is for next year and the following years. No guarantee of a bountiful run or decade until it happens.. but by God it is the best possible start... ;D
My money is on Mayo next year, with the Dubs and Kerry going to be snarling at everyone... Tyrone 4th favourites in my eyes.. Is it too early to say I don't think we got the respect we deserve for winning it.... ;)
What makes you put money on Mayo next year? Genuinely curious.
Ulster GAA provincial secretary and CEO Brian McAvoy has said that there are "significant weaknesses" in the idea of a league-based All-Ireland Football Championship.
https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1250023/?
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 01, 2021, 11:34:07 AM
Ulster GAA provincial secretary and CEO Brian McAvoy has said that there are "significant weaknesses" in the idea of a league-based All-Ireland Football Championship.
https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1250023/?
Yeh he's not going to say anything else is he, and the suits will try to whip their subordinates into line
"Who would vote for a system that allows a team that is relegated to get promoted? It makes no sense. The team that should have been promoted doesn't get promoted so there is an inherent weakness there."What like finishing bottom of intermediate club league and winning the intermediate club champ in the same year? Junior one minute, Senior the next.
Part and parcel of potential outcomes, there is no perfect system but the league based champ is a shot at a more balanced structure.
Provincial councils won't go for it though, the Provincial champs are what make them relevant and more importantly (for PC's at least) keep the coffers filled
Proposal A with artificial "Provinces" won't have the €€€€s flowing either...Leitrim v Antrim or Wexford v London in the "Connacht" Championship.
Kerry will still have a stroll with Carlow and Wicklow added to the Munster 6.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 01, 2021, 12:33:20 PM
Proposal A with artificial "Provinces" won't have the €€€€s flowing either...Leitrim v Antrim or Wexford v London in the "Connacht" Championship.
Kerry will still have a stroll with Carlow and Wicklow added to the Munster 6.
If you had Longford or Westmeath in Connacht, then there would be a definite rivalry v Roscommon.
It wouldn't be Connacht then!
As Rossfan so accurately states Proposal A for the new football championship structures IS A DEFINITE non runner for purely realistic and practical reasons.
If Proposal B does not get at least 60 per cent of the Congress vote on October 23rd we will be left with a return basically to the Super 8 system which caters only for the top eight teams in the country.
No system outside the total implementation of a three category system based on separate Senior,Intermediate and Junior championship as per the County Club Championships in most counties can be completely fair or equitable.That however is not on the table.
Therefore Proposal B, PROVIDED the Tailteann Cup is marketed properly and played in tandem with the Sam Maguire Cup series up to and including All Ireland final weekend, is by far the fairest proposal to treat ALL of our players in ALL 32 counties in a fair manner.After all at present every county trains as hard as the Dublins,Mayos,Tyrones and Kerrys of this world.
The delegates to the Special Congress must vote accordingly so that every county has a reasonable chance of some silverware.Proposal B CATERS FOR THAT EVENTUALITY.
Not a great option but about best on offer.
I'd tweak it to
Top 4 D1 go to Qtr Finals
Teams 5 and 6 D1, 1 to 4 D2 and top of D3 and D4 (8 teams) play a Prelim Round.
Tailteann to consist of teams 2 to 6 D3 and 2 to 4 D4.
My suggestion of an All Ireland weekend with Minor, u 20 and Tailteann/B finals as a triple header on the Saturday obviously not taken on board as I see it's proposed to stick the u20 back to the sh1t and muck again despite it's being such a festival of great football this year when played in Sumner.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 01, 2021, 03:10:22 PM
It wouldn't be Connacht then!
Of course it would not be Connacht in the short term. But a couple of years go by and traditions change.
Galway have a couple of Leinster titles in Hurling.
Cardiff and Swnsea play English league football.
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 01, 2021, 03:24:56 PM
As Rossfan so accurately states Proposal A for the new football championship structures IS A DEFINITE non runner for purely realistic and practical reasons.
If Proposal B does not get at least 60 per cent of the Congress vote on October 23rd we will be left with a return basically to the Super 8 system which caters only for the top eight teams in the country.
No system outside the total implementation of a three category system based on separate Senior,Intermediate and Junior championship as per the County Club Championships in most counties can be completely fair or equitable.That however is not on the table.
Therefore Proposal B, PROVIDED the Tailteann Cup is marketed properly and played in tandem with the Sam Maguire Cup series up to and including All Ireland final weekend, is by far the fairest proposal to treat ALL of our players in ALL 32 counties in a fair manner.After all at present every county trains as hard as the Dublins,Mayos,Tyrones and Kerrys of this world.
The delegates to the Special Congress must vote accordingly so that every county has a reasonable chance of some silverware.Proposal B CATERS FOR THAT EVENTUALITY.
Or a return to the stand alone quarter finals as we had in 2017. Tailteann Cup will be going ahead next year regardless of what format it seems and it will be interesting to see will it be more of a success than the Tommy Murphy Cup was
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 01, 2021, 03:24:56 PM
As Rossfan so accurately states Proposal A for the new football championship structures IS A DEFINITE non runner for purely realistic and practical reasons.
If Proposal B does not get at least 60 per cent of the Congress vote on October 23rd we will be left with a return basically to the Super 8 system which caters only for the top eight teams in the country.
No system outside the total implementation of a three category system based on separate Senior,Intermediate and Junior championship as per the County Club Championships in most counties can be completely fair or equitable.That however is not on the table.
Therefore Proposal B, PROVIDED the Tailteann Cup is marketed properly and played in tandem with the Sam Maguire Cup series up to and including All Ireland final weekend, is by far the fairest proposal to treat ALL of our players in ALL 32 counties in a fair manner.After all at present every county trains as hard as the Dublins,Mayos,Tyrones and Kerrys of this world.
The delegates to the Special Congress must vote accordingly so that every county has a reasonable chance of some silverware.Proposal B CATERS FOR THAT EVENTUALITY.
Yeah Option B looks very much like the least worst option by a long distance.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 01, 2021, 11:34:07 AM
Ulster GAA provincial secretary and CEO Brian McAvoy has said that there are "significant weaknesses" in the idea of a league-based All-Ireland Football Championship.
https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1250023/?
The weakness of McAvoy's arguments makes me think that Option B might actually have a real chance of being passed.
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 01, 2021, 03:24:56 PM
As Rossfan so accurately states Proposal A for the new football championship structures IS A DEFINITE non runner for purely realistic and practical reasons.
If Proposal B does not get at least 60 per cent of the Congress vote on October 23rd we will be left with a return basically to the Super 8 system which caters only for the top eight teams in the country.
No system outside the total implementation of a three category system based on separate Senior,Intermediate and Junior championship as per the County Club Championships in most counties can be completely fair or equitable.That however is not on the table.
Therefore Proposal B, PROVIDED the Tailteann Cup is marketed properly and played in tandem with the Sam Maguire Cup series up to and including All Ireland final weekend, is by far the fairest proposal to treat ALL of our players in ALL 32 counties in a fair manner.After all at present every county trains as hard as the Dublins,Mayos,Tyrones and Kerrys of this world.
The delegates to the Special Congress must vote accordingly so that every county has a reasonable chance of some silverware.Proposal B CATERS FOR THAT EVENTUALITY.
The Christy Ring Cup final, when originally introduced, as supposed to be played prior to the Liam McCarthy semi final. It was orginally. Then it wasn't any more. Eventually it was played in June, in Portlaoise.
The reward for winning it was still Promotion.
Tommy Tailteann is a meaningless tournament under proposals A, 2017 or 2018/19 systems.
What kind of msrketing would the Tailteann Cup.require?
Before All Ireland Final?
Social media push?
Press nights?
Up for the match ?
40% of the Sunday Game ?
Quote from: Rossfan on October 01, 2021, 05:36:55 PM
The reward for winning it was still Promotion.
Tommy Tailteann is a meaningless tournament under proposals A, 2017 or 2018/19 systems.
Agreed. But my point was in relation to whether it would be promoted and well placed on the calendar. It might for a year or two, but then it will sink in to obscurity.
Quote from: seafoid on October 01, 2021, 05:49:27 PM
What kind of msrketing would the Tailteann Cup.require?
Before All Ireland Final?
Social media push?
Press nights?
Up for the match ?
40% of the Sunday Game ?
The day before maybe, making it a finals weekend. Tough enough to get tickets for an AI Final with 2 teams never mind having 4 senior teams. If promoted correctly, Tailteann Cup final should through time attract 20/30/40k fans on the Saturday
Should be a Tailteann All stars, a week away for the winners and All stars, have a big do in Croker for the teams on the evening of the match, include Tailteann games in TV packages and get a decent sponsor.
Is there a link to the details of the proposals anywhere?
If one is to go by the latest emotional and negative opinions uttered by Brian McAvoy Secretary of the Ulster Council and to a lesser extent by Donegal Chairman Mick McGrath re the new Championship proposals it would appear that both proposals are already consigned to the dustbin.
If that happens we will have at best a sanitised version of the Super eights which effectively only cater for the needs of a quarter of our 32 counties. Incredibly some of the views expressed by the naysayers are really DUP speak at its most negative.If the Provincial Councils really had the players views at heart they would listen to what the players are saying. Quite emphatically they are articulating the opinions of the vast majority of the silent majority of supporters and most importantly their own members, not the archaic views of some Provincial Council officials and County Board officials.Every player in every County squad should immediately let their own County Board know that they will not be treated as second class players any longer for that is what will happen if Proposal B is rejected and the old 2019 system reinstalled. A proper GAA Championship should not be an annual competition just for the top teams but rather a meaningful structure which will give every player a fair opportunity to win some silverware at their own level
The super 8's need to go. Championship football is at it's best when it is knockout, anyone who has ever played will tell you that. All this league shite doesnt compare to it and there is always a chance of catching a big team cold when it's all about on the day. Look at Cavan, Tipp, Cork etc last year.
Quote from: Armagh18 on October 02, 2021, 05:14:57 PM
The super 8's need to go. Championship football is at it's best when it is knockout, anyone who has ever played will tell you that. All this league shite doesnt compare to it and there is always a chance of catching a big team cold when it's all about on the day. Look at Cavan, Tipp, Cork etc last year.
Yeh I totally agree. But I just can't see them approving a knockout championship. Not when there's a shit load of money to be made from continuous matches between the top 6 or 7 teams (the other 24/25 teams don't matter).
No point Dublin/Kerry going home after 1 match knock out championship, when there's The potential to make millions from a repetitive deja vu league format. Yup, a 'milk that tit dry' championship format will be the way it'll be.
Quote from: Derry Optimist on October 02, 2021, 03:28:47 PM
If one is to go by the latest emotional and negative opinions uttered by Brian McAvoy Secretary of the Ulster Council and to a lesser extent by Donegal Chairman Mick McGrath re the new Championship proposals it would appear that both proposals are already consigned to the dustbin.
If that happens we will have at best a sanitised version of the Super eights which effectively only cater for the needs of a quarter of our 32 counties. Incredibly some of the views expressed by the naysayers are really DUP speak at its most negative.If the Provincial Councils really had the players views at heart they would listen to what the players are saying. Quite emphatically they are articulating the opinions of the vast majority of the silent majority of supporters and most importantly their own members, not the archaic views of some Provincial Council officials and County Board officials.Every player in every County squad should immediately let their own County Board know that they will not be treated as second class players any longer for that is what will happen if Proposal B is rejected and the old 2019 system reinstalled. A proper GAA Championship should not be an annual competition just for the top teams but rather a meaningful structure which will give every player a fair opportunity to win some silverware at their own level
Are the majority of players and fans in Ulster in favour of the elimination or downgrading of the Ulster championship? I would need to see the data on that.