The forces that keep NI separate from the rest of the island are not just political . Some of the most important are cultural. Partition works by exclusion.
One company works on both sides of the border to keep the status quo going
It wouldn't be hard to open things up a bit.
No Nordies in Irish "celebrities" for the ladies.
https://m.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/irish-celebrity-baby-boom-kathryn-tara-and-aoibhin-show-off-unique-maternity-style-36456338.html
No southerners in the Northern equivalent
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/cars/me-and-my-first-car-how-ni-stars-got-into-right-gear-36456734.html
There are exceptions for sports stars and very famous people but at ground level this is how it works.
Quote from: seafoid on January 05, 2018, 07:57:51 AM
The forces that keep NI separate from the rest of the island are not just political . Some of the most important are cultural. Partition works by exclusion.
One company works on both sides of the border to keep the status quo going
It wouldn't be hard to open things up a bit.
No Nordies in Irish "celebrities" for the ladies.
https://m.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/irish-celebrity-baby-boom-kathryn-tara-and-aoibhin-show-off-unique-maternity-style-36456338.html
No southerners in the Northern equivalent
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/cars/me-and-my-first-car-how-ni-stars-got-into-right-gear-36456734.html
There are exceptions for sports stars and very famous people but at ground level this is how it works.
Bad example . I don't give a 5bite about these needy narcissists in the free state and I couldn't give a Donald Duck about their equivalents in the O6,
The Indo stable is shallow and vacuous regardless of side of the border .
Seaf really needs to get out more :-\
Not one political party in the Republic, including Sinn Fein, are making any effort to show the economic and social benefits of a United Ireland.
Post Brexit there is great potential for agriculture, tourism and other markets. With the proper negotiations we can still maintain access to the British market while increasing involvement in the European and Asian markets.
Quote from: seafoid on January 05, 2018, 07:57:51 AM
The forces that keep NI separate from the rest of the island are not just political . Some of the most important are cultural. Partition works by exclusion.
One company works on both sides of the border to keep the status quo going
It wouldn't be hard to open things up a bit.
No Nordies in Irish "celebrities" for the ladies.
https://m.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/irish-celebrity-baby-boom-kathryn-tara-and-aoibhin-show-off-unique-maternity-style-36456338.html
No southerners in the Northern equivalent
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/cars/me-and-my-first-car-how-ni-stars-got-into-right-gear-36456734.html
There are exceptions for sports stars and very famous people but at ground level this is how it works.
The Orange Telegraph is a hideous paper.
The Independent is the Free State equivalent of the Daily Mail.
Free State went out of existence 30 Dec 1937 ;)
Independent is still a rag though.
They are only operating under the commercial necessity and reality of two different states.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 05, 2018, 08:13:20 PM
They are only operating under the commercial necessity and reality of two different states.
As an opponent of the Good Friday Agreement I thought you didn't recognise the reality of two different states.
You cannot deny reality
We seem to have tried every political/economical solution to the "Northern problem" except. 1
A United Ireland
If any British government had the balls to stand up to the hate filled Scottish planters, " who went on to create the racist Ku Klux Klan," then we would not now be beholding to Arlene and her bigoted followers.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 06, 2018, 01:11:20 AM
You cannot deny reality
You seem to manage quite well.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 06, 2018, 01:11:20 AM
You cannot deny reality
The reality is that the catholics in NI are Irish.
https://youtu.be/O3G1bwD0ao0
Yes,and they along with their co religionists in the South overwhelmingly endorsed British Rule in the North in the Good Friday Agreement referendum
They endorsed reality i.e that until a majority of 6 Cos residents vote otherwise the status quo of the 6 Northeastern Cos.under British jurisdiction would remain.
If we had voted NO to the GFA would the Brits have packed their bags and gone home?
In 1951 four northern anti partition league MPs and 2 Nationalist Senators at Stormont sought admission to the Dáil as elected representatives of part of the national territory and were refused.
The media and the political class keep NI going.
The GFA was a final settlement (Clinton,Blair and Ahern all believed this regardless of the waffle),all of Irish nationalism urged its misled followers to vote for British rule in the North.Constitutional change by consent was always available long before the GFA.I remember a border poll in the North in the early 70s.The only thing different about the GFA was that Dublin gleefully deleted Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution thus abandoning its rightful sovereign claims to the whole island.
Let's face it Blair and Ahern assumed that with an agreed power sharing government in the North,the politicians would soon become embroiled in day to day politics and all its problems to worry about the border,and indeed that Catholics would settle down and be comfortable with the status quo.This plan was working very well up until Brexit when, and only when, this threatened the free state economy,the Dublin Govt took an interest in trade borders.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 06, 2018, 01:11:18 PM
The GFA was a final settlement (Clinton,Blair and Ahern all believed this regardless of the waffle),all of Irish nationalism urged its misled followers to vote for British rule in the North.Constitutional change by consent was always available long before the GFA.I remember a border poll in the North in the early 70s.The only thing different about the GFA was that Dublin gleefully deleted Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution thus abandoning its rightful sovereign claims to the whole island.
Grow up.
Rightful sovereign claim?
RoI has a rightful claim to NI even if a majority in the north don't want it?
In the grown up world a majority in NI was needed before and after GFA. GFA got the paperwork tidied up to make life a bit easier for the slow learners
Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2018, 11:52:46 AM
They endorsed reality i.e that until a majority of 6 Cos residents vote otherwise the status quo of the 6 Northeastern Cos.under British jurisdiction would remain.
If we had voted NO to the GFA would the Brits have packed their bags and gone home?
Nope, they'll go home when they've stolen all the gold in Greencastle.
The GFA was an attempt to put a lid on the Troubles. You can't have a final settlement in a polarised space that is 45:55 with the majority share falling by 1% a decade.
There is a lot of reluctance in the south to take on NI. The question is where this feeling comes from. Is it manufactured? Is it unrelated to how the Southern media presents the 32 counties?
Quote from: seafoid on January 06, 2018, 11:19:55 PM
The GFA was an attempt to put a lid on the Troubles. You can't have a final settlement in a polarised space that is 45:55 with the majority share falling by 1% a decade.
There is a lot of reluctance in the south to take on NI. The question is where this feeling comes from. Is it manufactured? Is it unrelated to how the Southern media presents the 32 counties?
Of course there is a reluctance to take on NI. Who would want us. We are a basket case. We can't go it alone (economically or otherwise). RoI doesn't have a broad enough back to take us on. UK does have a broad enough back but we are an increasing pain in their hole. Currently being magnified by us being the fly in the brexit ointment
So apart from Nuking or fracking ye what's to be done with ye at all?
Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2018, 12:24:57 AM
So apart from Nuking or fracking ye what's to be done with ye at all?
The pension system will blow up in a few years. We need to start investing in regions instead of bonds that are hopelessly overvalued.
Leonard,the South removed its sovereign claim to all of Ireland when it willingly deleted Articles 2 and 3. There was a lot of cosmetic waffle from Bertie at the time about unity but the GFA was seen by Dublin and London as a final settlement.
Apart from the fact that unionists will always oppose unity (regardless of economics,hell or high water) there is not and never has been any vision from the South (much less a costed plan) for Unity.
So no point in deluding yourselves about something that's never going to happen.
It won't be long until unionists are in a minority. What will happen then?
They're already a Minority - just a slightly bigger but declining one than the Nationalists.
Throughout my lifetime It has never been long since Unionists will be in a minority.Nothing will change,there will be a fudge,threats of violence to scare Dublin and London, or in the very best case some form of re partition.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 07, 2018, 09:23:52 AM
Leonard,the South removed its sovereign claim to all of Ireland when it willingly deleted Articles 2 and 3. There was a lot of cosmetic waffle from Bertie at the time about unity but the GFA was seen by Dublin and London as a final settlement.
Apart from the fact that unionists will always oppose unity (regardless of economics,hell or high water) there is not and never has been any vision from the South (much less a costed plan) for Unity.
So no point in deluding yourselves about something that's never going to happen.
Anthony,
Subtleties remain forever beyond your reach.
It's the "rightful" claim that I was questioning.
Of course there is no costed plan? Why would there be? It's not really a serious proposition.
As for unionism there certainly is a group within it that looks at the constitutional position of NI without any consideration for economic realities or even common sense. Likewise within nationalism. Hard to credit either group. But we live in a democracy and political parties have a terrible habit of serving up the pap that an unthinking audience finds it easy to swallow.
Quote from: seafoid on January 07, 2018, 09:35:06 AM
It won't be long until unionists are in a minority. What will happen then?
Define long in this context?
In all of the Political talks from Sunningdale,Anglo Irish,Good Friday etc to resolve problems here a United Ireland was never once on the table.This is because both London and Dublin know it is not a viable option.
In 100 years, after willingly agreeing to partition,the South has never once seriously advocated for a United Ireland or even envisioned what one would look like.
Now the cultural differences between Northern and Southern Catholics are so great as to be virtually irreconcilable,even leaving unionists out of the equation.
Not one person on this Board today will see a United Ireland.Fact
Quote from: T Fearon on January 07, 2018, 01:02:10 PM
In all of the Political talks from Sunningdale,Anglo Irish,Good Friday etc to resolve problems here a United Ireland was never once on the table.This is because both London and Dublin know it is not a viable option.
In 100 years, after willingly agreeing to partition,the South has never once seriously advocated for a United Ireland or even envisioned what one would look like.
Now the cultural differences between Northern and Southern Catholics are so great as to be virtually irreconcilable,even leaving unionists out of the equation.
Not one person on this Board today will see a United Ireland.Fact
Anthony,
You play around with this issue.
There is no immediate prospect of a united ireland.
There is nobody actually working towards a united ireland.
I agree with you on these 2 points.
But you keep repeating crap about ROI using Foreign Affairs to cover NI, RoI giving up their "rightful claim" etc. Can you clarify that you back the principle of consent and are happy for RoI to not actively work towards a UI?
Tony
The leaders of the Catholic Church were some of the biggest public advocates of the GFA. Does that sit well with you?
I have no feelings either way.Just don't see point in striving for an unattainable United Ireland.
Quote from: LCohen on January 07, 2018, 12:56:15 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 07, 2018, 09:35:06 AM
It won't be long until unionists are in a minority. What will happen then?
Define long in this context?
According to the 2011 census
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/protestantcatholic-gap-narrows-as-census-results-revealed-29004134.html
"The percentage of Catholics in the population was up to 45 while Protestant representation has fallen to 48% from the 2001 census."
The Protestant % falls by 100 basis points per decade. So in 2021 it should be 47.
If a no deal Brexit happens the NI economy will lose a lot of jobs as it moves to a low wage kip.
So a nationalist majority could happen faster.
The trend is not the unionists' friend.
Without consent (subtext for general unionist consent) there will be no united Ireland.Besides the 26 counties has no long term track record of financial stability.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 07, 2018, 02:13:28 PM
Without consent (subtext for general unionist consent) there will be no united Ireland.Besides the 26 counties has no long term track record of financial stability.
Who has?
Quote from: T Fearon on January 07, 2018, 01:02:10 PM
In all of the Political talks from Sunningdale,Anglo Irish,Good Friday etc to resolve problems here a United Ireland was never once on the table.This is because both London and Dublin know it is not a viable option.
In 100 years, after willingly agreeing to partition,the South has never once seriously advocated for a United Ireland or even envisioned what one would look like.
Now the cultural differences between Northern and Southern Catholics are so great as to be virtually irreconcilable,even leaving unionists out of the equation.
Not one person on this Board today will see a United Ireland.Fact
That's a personal prediction NOT a FACT.
Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2018, 03:48:31 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 07, 2018, 01:02:10 PM
In all of the Political talks from Sunningdale,Anglo Irish,Good Friday etc to resolve problems here a United Ireland was never once on the table.This is because both London and Dublin know it is not a viable option.
Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2018, 03:48:31 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 07, 2018, 01:02:10 PM
In all of the Political talks from Sunningdale,Anglo Irish,Good Friday etc to resolve problems here a United Ireland was never once on the table.This is because both London and Dublin know it is not a viable option.
In 100 years, after willingly agreeing to partition,the South has never once seriously advocated for a United Ireland or even envisioned what one would look like.
Now the cultural differences between Northern and Southern Catholics are so great as to be virtually irreconcilable,even leaving unionists out of the equation.
Not one person on this Board today will see a United Ireland.Fact
That's a personal prediction NOT a FACT.
Nobody in 1987 expected East Germany to collapse
Quote from: seafoid on January 06, 2018, 11:19:55 PM
The GFA was an attempt to put a lid on the Troubles. You can't have a final settlement in a polarised space that is 45:55 with the majority share falling by 1% a decade.
There is a lot of reluctance in the south to take on NI. The question is where this feeling comes from. Is it manufactured? Is it unrelated to how the Southern media presents the 32 counties?
Hah?
I'd have thought a brainy lad like you would know the answer(s) without having to ask.
First and foremost, there's the very real probability that there would be an extreme, violent backlash from loyalist factions which would stand the GFA on its head.
The antagonism built up over centuries of mutual hostility won't fade away overnight. There are very real fears that we'd have bombs going off on the streets of Dublin and other areas in the South once again. Up north, if the UDA/UVF extremists returned to violence, there is no question that the republican hard liners wouldn't follow suit.
The harsh reality is that if a referendum was held and the verdict was in favour of unification, the backlash would last for generations.
As well as that, there is a general perception down south that the Six can't exist without massive subsidies and if GB is no longer around to pony up the aid required, us poor friggers down here in this bollixed up land will have step in give them the wherewithal to keep on knocking lumps outa each other.
That last para might seem a bit tongue in cheek but there is no doubt that the general feeling persists that unification could result in devastation and general ruination for the Republic
Letting the McGuiness, Adams and Paisley types just die off is a pretty good approach to avoiding violence, Lar.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 07, 2018, 04:38:06 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 06, 2018, 11:19:55 PM
The GFA was an attempt to put a lid on the Troubles. You can't have a final settlement in a polarised space that is 45:55 with the majority share falling by 1% a decade.
There is a lot of reluctance in the south to take on NI. The question is where this feeling comes from. Is it manufactured? Is it unrelated to how the Southern media presents the 32 counties?
Hah?
I'd have thought a brainy lad like you would know the answer(s) without having to ask.
First and foremost, there's the very real probability that there would be an extreme, violent backlash from loyalist factions which would stand the GFA on its head.
The antagonism built up over centuries of mutual hostility won't fade away overnight. There are very real fears that we'd have bombs going off on the streets of Dublin and other areas in the South once again. Up north, if the UDA/UVF extremists returned to violence, there is no question that the republican hard liners wouldn't follow suit.
The harsh reality is that if a referendum was held and the verdict was in favour of unification, the backlash would last for generations.
As well as that, there is a general perception down south that the Six can't exist without massive subsidies and if GB is no longer around to pony up the aid required, us poor friggers down here in this bollixed up land will have step in give them the wherewithal to keep on knocking lumps outa each other.
That last para might seem a bit tongue in cheek but there is no doubt that the general feeling persists that unification could result in devastation and general ruination for the Republic
It would probably be cheaper than not regulating the banks. NI has been operating below it's potential for at least 50 years.
Quote from: T Fearon on January 07, 2018, 01:57:39 PM
I have no feelings either way.Just don't see point in striving for an unattainable United Ireland.
.
Unattainable in the minds of people like you.
Quote from: Avondhu star on January 07, 2018, 05:11:21 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 07, 2018, 01:57:39 PM
I have no feelings either way.Just don't see point in striving for an unattainable United Ireland.
.
Unattainable in the minds of people like you.
I think it's unattainable and I'm not like Tony in any way
Have a border poll in Britain, and problem solved.
I mean, what would be the aim of a loyalist terror campaign if Britain doesn't want them?
Quote from: BennyCake on January 07, 2018, 05:35:14 PM
Have a border poll in Britain, and problem solved.
I mean, what would be the aim of a loyalist terror campaign if Britain doesn't want them?
No precedent for this. No vote for rest of UK re Scottish independence.
Ok chaps it's 2030 and,assuming the UK still exists the British Sec of State holds a Referendum or plebiscite
Question
Do you wish Northern Ireland to
Remain in the UK
Unite with the RoI.
The latter gets 52%........
What happens next?
Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2018, 06:12:05 PM
Ok chaps it's 2030 and,assuming the UK still exists the British Sec of State holds a Referendum or plebiscite
Question
Do you wish Northern Ireland to
Remain in the UK
Unite with the RoI.
The latter gets 52%........
What happens next?
I would say the unionists would look for a lot of money and loads of autonomy.
Quote from: michaelg on January 07, 2018, 06:07:49 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 07, 2018, 05:35:14 PM
Have a border poll in Britain, and problem solved.
I mean, what would be the aim of a loyalist terror campaign if Britain doesn't want them?
No precedent for this. No vote for rest of UK re Scottish independence.
But wasn't there an all-island vote on Home Rule, pre-partition?
Quote from: Syferus on January 07, 2018, 04:47:49 PM
Letting the McGuiness, Adams and Paisley types just die off is a pretty good approach to avoiding violence, Lar.
I wish it was that simple Syf.
There's been McGuiness, Adams and Paisley types knocking lumps out of each other since 1603 or thereabouts and I'm afraid there are generations of them still to come.
I'd love to think otherwise as all the people on the island have enough on their plates without rehashing the Battle of the Boyne all over again but I'm certain that I will be long gone before the Northern Question is finally answered.
Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2018, 06:12:05 PM
Ok chaps it's 2030 and,assuming the UK still exists the British Sec of State holds a Referendum or plebiscite
Question
Do you wish Northern Ireland to
Remain in the UK
Unite with the RoI.
The latter gets 52%........
What happens next?
Armageddon
Quote from: T Fearon on January 06, 2018, 01:11:20 AM
You cannot deny reality
(http://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/2303357/original?width=578&version=2303357)