Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

T Fearon

It is not everybody's fault.As in every crime the overwhelming responsibility lies with the perpetrators.While allegations in the past (ie in the 70s, a half a lifetime ago) were at best mishandled by clergy in senior positions ( not the Church as an institution) out of some warped sense of trying to maintain the Church's reputation,this is not remotely even bordering on facilitation, no more than fir example some Gardai or RUC Special Branch turning a blind eye to paramilitary murders was facilitating Murder institutionally.

seafoid

Paedos were sheltered by the Church . Kids who brought abuse to the attention of priests were ignored. It is only now that the full scale of the horror is becoming known.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Itchy

Good man Tony. God forbid you ever open your eyes and see what is going on, your whole world will collapse. Thank god these people no longer run this country and idiots like Tony are less and less. I have a German friend who told me his Grandfather still won't hear a bad word said about Adolf, I immediately thought of you Tony.

Main Street

#2163
I appreciate that just when you thought you had already heard it all re clerical abuse, that nothing new could top what you already have witnessed, but this is a new compelling candidate for the GUBU award.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/pope-francis-accuses-clerical-abuse-victims-of-slandering-bishop-1.3361838

Pope Francis accuses clerical abuse victims of slandering bishop

Pope Francis has accused victims of Chile's most notorious paedophile of slander, in an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.

Francis said that until he sees proof that Bishop Juan Barros was complicit in covering up the sex crimes of the Reverend Fernando Karadima, such accusations against the bishop are "all calumny".

The pope's remarks drew shock from Chileans and immediate rebuke from victims and their advocates. They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a lifetime of "penance and prayer" for his crimes in 2011.

A Chilean judge also found the victims to be credible, saying that while she had to drop criminal charges against Karadima because too much time had passed, proof of his crimes was not lacking."As if I could have taken a selfie or a photo while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all," tweeted Bishop Barros's most vocal accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz.
Truly crazy

"These people are truly crazy, and the pontiff talks about atonement to the victims. Nothing has changed, and his plea for forgiveness is empty."

The Karadima scandal dominated Francis's visit to Chile and the overall issue of sex abuse and church cover-up was likely to factor into his three-day trip to Peru that began late on Thursday.

Karadima's victims reported to church authorities as early as 2002 that he would kiss and fondle them in the Santiago parish he ran, but officials refused to believe them.

Only when the victims went public with their accusations in 2010 did the Vatican launch an investigation that led to Karadima being removed from ministry.

Francis had sought to heal the wounds by meeting this week with abuse victims and begging forgiveness for the crimes of church pastors. But on Thursday, he struck a defiant tone when asked by a Chilean journalist about Mr Barros.

"The day they bring me proof against Bishop Barros, I'll speak," Francis said. "There is not one shred of proof against him. It's all calumny. Is that clear?"

Anne Barrett Doyle, of the online database BishopAccountability.org, said it was "sad and wrong" for the pope to discredit the victims since "the burden of proof here rests with the church, not the victims – and especially not with victims whose veracity has already been affirmed.

"He has just turned back the clock to the darkest days of this crisis," she said in a statement. "Who knows how many victims now will decide to stay hidden, for fear they will not be believed?"
Claims

Indeed, Catholic officials for years accused victims of slandering and attacking the church with their claims. But up until the pope's words on Thursday, many in the church and Vatican had come to reluctantly acknowledge that victims usually told the truth and that the church for decades had wrongly sought to protect its own.

German Silva, a political scientist at Santiago's Universidad Mayor, said the pope's comments were a "tremendous error" that will reverberate in Chile and beyond.

Patricio Navia, political science professor at Diego Portales University in Santiago, said Francis had gone much further than Chilean bishops in acknowledging the sexual abuse scandal, which many Chileans appreciated.

"Then right before leaving, Francis turns around and says: 'By the way, I don't think Barros is guilty. Show me some proof'," Mr Navia said, adding that the comment will probably erase any goodwill the pope had won over the issue.

longballin

#2164
The mask drops.... need to get Tony's paedophile hunters on the job.

longballin

#2165
Quote from: T Fearon on January 20, 2018, 12:12:50 AM
Er,like his Holiness,I see no  evidence in the above article of the Bishop's complicity in the crimes of this pervert.But as usual anti Catholics are blind to logic and reason and are accusing the Pope of condoning sexual abuse,which he certainly is not doing.

Complicity in crime is a very serious allegation,and the Pope is entirely right to demand proof of such in this case.

you speak with fork tongue - one rule for the church abusers and another for those nabbed by the predator hunters

longballin

#2166
Quote from: T Fearon on January 20, 2018, 12:46:13 AM
No.A 89 year old evil monk from Coalisland was jailed the other day.I fully support this.

The abuse ceased in 1983 around the time he left the church... long time since he was a monk though seemed to get free rein  to abuse young boys when he was.

playwiththewind1st

Learned what, exactly? That it needs to cover up better?

From the Bunker

Quote from: playwiththewind1st on January 20, 2018, 08:54:22 AM
Learned what, exactly? That it needs to cover up better?

They have learned that they can be caught now.

They have learned that now they have gone from a position of being one of the most trusted figures in Society to one that is over scrutinised!

Thems the breaks!

I feel sorry for the decent few Priests that are left with this mess.

longballin

Quote from: playwiththewind1st on January 20, 2018, 08:54:22 AM
Learned what, exactly? That it needs to cover up better?

Learnt that children grow up and have long memories

playwiththewind1st

Shuffling paedos around, from parish to parish, to avoid convictions = being complicit, in any right thinking person's interpretation.

J70

Quote from: playwiththewind1st on January 20, 2018, 12:26:17 PM
Shuffling paedos around, from parish to parish, to avoid convictions = being complicit, in any right thinking person's interpretation.

No shit!

That's a jaw-dropping assertion from Tony!

Main Street

The article in the IT is not required to present any evidence to  implicate Biship Barro in the cover up.  The evidence for that lies elsewhere. The IT is reporting the news story. Should people want to refute the basis for the story  on the grounds that they see no evidence in the article, then that denial has no merit.

The Catholic Herald called the appointment of the bishop "disastrous appointment of Bishop Barros could spell trouble for Pope Francis".

Article in Catholic journal  (ironically)  called Crux,    by John Allen the editor
https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/03/27/pope-francis-may-be-nearing-a-tipping-point-on-sexual-abuse/

"five members of the pope's own anti-abuse commission have expressed "concern and incredulity" that Bishop Juan Barros has been given command of the Diocese of Osorno in Chile, despite his public record of defending the country's most notorious abuser priest"

Main Street

#2173
The pope states "there is not one shred of proof against him. It's all calumny"

That's a very interesting choice of words. 

People don't bring proof, they bring evidence and guilt is established based on the balance of probabilities after examination of the merits of all the evidence.
Yet the Pope exclaims that it's all calumny, slanderous statements made to damage the bishop.
How exactly does the Pope shift from seeing no proof of guilt, to determining that it's all lies and slander? All lies, means every piece of evidence is a lie.
How did the Pope determine that ALL the evidence offered were lies? He accuses the abused of maliciously lying through their teeth in order to slander the bishop.
Perhaps the pope is afflicted with the delusion that he is God's representative on earth and everything he believes  has the status of absolute truth in all matters.

Ironic though that a catholic cleric would want to see proof before believing something.

From the Bunker

Quote from: T Fearon on January 20, 2018, 10:02:07 AM
Bullshit.Like all other organisations they have statutory child protection procedures.I agree that they are over scrutinised,by themselves,leaving many priests feeling abandoned by the Church when an as yet unfounded allegation is made against them.

Incidentally the above article is about totally unproven allegations against a Bishop about complicity.Whatever mistakes Church authorities made in the past in their handling of Child Abuse allegations,they were certainly not complicit.

Ah, it does not matter now whether he is innocent, he will always be guilty in the Public eyes (sadly)! The trust is lost! The bad smell from previous bad judgments and the above the law feel that the clergy had in the past has left a sour taste in the public's mouth. It will take a generation for this to pass over. By then it's hard to know at what level the Catholic Church will be operating.