gaaboard.com

Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Denn Forever on July 15, 2013, 02:48:51 PM

Title: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Denn Forever on July 15, 2013, 02:48:51 PM
More doping in athletics?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/23307913

I thought the various athletic bodies had approved lists of safe medicines/supplements?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on July 15, 2013, 08:16:46 PM
Listening to that muppet kiernan on the radio this evening, trying to play it down...............and he has no time for the GAA!!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Capt Pat on July 15, 2013, 08:33:01 PM
It is just a matter of time before the top man in sprinting gets caught out, I can't wait. He has really been pushing his luck.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 15, 2013, 09:52:51 PM
The problem in running is they rely alot on supplements, and to be honest none of them are really up to date in whats in them unless they are a chemist, the runner will take whats given to them and place trust on other. the fact 5 Jamaicans have all popped up at the same time seems to indicate they all been given the same thing and all tested positive from this. Gay trains with some of these Jamaicans also. in any sport u try to gain a edge but i find it hard to believe they knowingly take steroids these days in a sport so heavier tested. Hell the inhaler i use every day since i was 5 means i wouldnt pass a drug cheat. Played football all my life using it, hardly classifies as a drug cheat. Thats why it annoyed me when frankie sheenan picked up a ban for inhaler use a few yrs bck. With GAA footballers getting tested, is use of inhaler allowed if u have history using them??
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on July 15, 2013, 09:53:32 PM
If i had a suspicious mind, all those Jamaicans offered up to protect him.....maybe.....
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Wildweasel74 on July 15, 2013, 09:55:21 PM
Bolt wasnt one of the 5 with a positive test, though Powell was, though he had a built not out of place in the WWE
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: INDIANA on July 15, 2013, 10:10:13 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on July 15, 2013, 09:52:51 PM
The problem in running is they rely alot on supplements, and to be honest none of them are really up to date in whats in them unless they are a chemist, the runner will take whats given to them and place trust on other. the fact 5 Jamaicans have all popped up at the same time seems to indicate they all been given the same thing and all tested positive from this. Gay trains with some of these Jamaicans also. in any sport u try to gain a edge but i find it hard to believe they knowingly take steroids these days in a sport so heavier tested. Hell the inhaler i use every day since i was 5 means i wouldnt pass a drug cheat. Played football all my life using it, hardly classifies as a drug cheat. Thats why it annoyed me when frankie sheenan picked up a ban for inhaler use a few yrs bck. With GAA footballers getting tested, is use of inhaler allowed if u have history using them??

are you having  a laugh? athletes are ahead of the testers in many ways
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: INDIANA on July 15, 2013, 10:11:26 PM
Quote from: Capt Pat on July 15, 2013, 08:33:01 PM
It is just a matter of time before the top man in sprinting gets caught out, I can't wait. He has really been pushing his luck.

Bolt has been a freak since 15. So I'm not as convinced he's definitely on them. Phelps beat a lot of cheats as well.

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Declan on July 16, 2013, 08:20:53 AM
I'm normally skeptical when it comes to the drugs issue at top level sports but in Bolt's case I think he's just a freak of nature.

Interesting article with David Gillick this morning:

After processing the mild surprise and nagging disgust that both Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell had failed a doping test – the latest damning indictment on the sport, yet neither of whom he'd any reason to doubt – there was only one thing David Gillick felt like doing.
So he drove the short distance up to Marley Park, ran repeat hills next to the playground, and followed that with a weights session in the GAA clubhouse at nearby Ballinteer St John's.
This was his old stomping ground, where Gillick first dreamed of running on the world stage, of standing on the medal podium to the tune of Amhrán na bhFiann. It was here Gillick took the first strides towards fulfilling that dream, which within a few years saw him win two European Indoor gold medals in the 400 metres, and run that still brilliant Irish record of 44.77 seconds.
It was here, he told me, that the mild surprise and nagging disgust turned to anger, and why now more than ever, Gillick feels the sport he still loves is being allowed to die.

Sad part
He's not alone; to anyone else who still cares in that way – and we're dying out ourselves – this is the sad part of what Gay and Powell have again revealed, that the sport still has the appetite for destruction, while its credibility drops dangerously close to zero.
Gillick has had his critics over the years, not always delivering on the big stage, but it's never been through lack of effort. In 2009 he made the final of the World Championships in Berlin, finished an excellent sixth, as the American LaShawn Merritt cruised to the gold medal. A year later Merritt failed a doping test, and blamed it on a penis enlargement product, "ExtenZe". His standard two-year ban was later reduced to 21 months, just in time for Merritt to be back competing at the London Olympics.
Gillick, in the meantime, after narrowly missing out on a medal at the 2010 European Championships in Barcelona, decided he needed to change something to step up to the next level. So he talked his way into one of the leading sprint training groups in the world, and moved to Clermont, Florida to join Gay, his coach Lance Brauman, and some of the other top names in the sport. Yet in trying, ultimately, to match these so-called Fastest Men on Earth, Gillick fell further behind, that being the very reason why doping still makes the crucial difference, and why as long as the penalty doesn't fit the crime, will continue to do so.
"Yeah, I tried to stick with that, and for a while I did," says Gillick. "Then I got as far as February and I tore my calf muscle, broke down completely. That's when I started to question the intensity that these guys were training at, knocking it out, week after week. At that time Tyson Gay had a few injury problems, too. He would hop on a plane, go away for a week or two, then come back flying again.
"At the time it was hard to know what to imply by that, but in hindsight, it makes perfect sense now.
"Now I never saw anyone doping, or was never bluntly offered anything, because this kind of stuff doesn't go on down at the track. It's done in their own apartments, houses, wherever. But that's what performance enhancing drugs are about, allowing athletes to train hard the whole year round, unlike us mere mortals.
"That's what's really hitting me, wondering how many of these athletes that actually beat me were taking drugs? That's the hardest part. Was I done out of a medal, or even fourth, or fifth? Have I been robbed of something?"
That's the equally sad part of the Gay and Powell affair, that they're not only cheating themselves but the whole sport and everyone in it.
What typically separates the cheats from those being cheated, however, is the level of noise and uproar about both the testing process and the process that follows: there are those who remain suspiciously quiet.
"I know the lifetime ban won't happen, for legal reasons or whatever. But there's no reason they can't make it a four-year ban. That's at least is an Olympic cycle. And when an athlete sees one of their closest rivals get done there should be more noise. I'm not hearing enough of that noise.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: AZOffaly on July 16, 2013, 08:25:29 AM
Quote from: Declan on July 16, 2013, 08:20:53 AM
I'm normally skeptical when it comes to the drugs issue at top level sports but in Bolt's case I think he's just a freak of nature.

Interesting article with David Gillick this morning:

After processing the mild surprise and nagging disgust that both Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell had failed a doping test – the latest damning indictment on the sport, yet neither of whom he'd any reason to doubt – there was only one thing David Gillick felt like doing.
So he drove the short distance up to Marley Park, ran repeat hills next to the playground, and followed that with a weights session in the GAA clubhouse at nearby Ballinteer St John's.
This was his old stomping ground, where Gillick first dreamed of running on the world stage, of standing on the medal podium to the tune of Amhrán na bhFiann. It was here Gillick took the first strides towards fulfilling that dream, which within a few years saw him win two European Indoor gold medals in the 400 metres, and run that still brilliant Irish record of 44.77 seconds.
It was here, he told me, that the mild surprise and nagging disgust turned to anger, and why now more than ever, Gillick feels the sport he still loves is being allowed to die.

Sad part
He's not alone; to anyone else who still cares in that way – and we're dying out ourselves – this is the sad part of what Gay and Powell have again revealed, that the sport still has the appetite for destruction, while its credibility drops dangerously close to zero.
Gillick has had his critics over the years, not always delivering on the big stage, but it's never been through lack of effort. In 2009 he made the final of the World Championships in Berlin, finished an excellent sixth, as the American LaShawn Merritt cruised to the gold medal. A year later Merritt failed a doping test, and blamed it on a penis enlargement product, "ExtenZe". His standard two-year ban was later reduced to 21 months, just in time for Merritt to be back competing at the London Olympics.
Gillick, in the meantime, after narrowly missing out on a medal at the 2010 European Championships in Barcelona, decided he needed to change something to step up to the next level. So he talked his way into one of the leading sprint training groups in the world, and moved to Clermont, Florida to join Gay, his coach Lance Brauman, and some of the other top names in the sport. Yet in trying, ultimately, to match these so-called Fastest Men on Earth, Gillick fell further behind, that being the very reason why doping still makes the crucial difference, and why as long as the penalty doesn't fit the crime, will continue to do so.
"Yeah, I tried to stick with that, and for a while I did," says Gillick. "Then I got as far as February and I tore my calf muscle, broke down completely. That's when I started to question the intensity that these guys were training at, knocking it out, week after week. At that time Tyson Gay had a few injury problems, too. He would hop on a plane, go away for a week or two, then come back flying again.
"At the time it was hard to know what to imply by that, but in hindsight, it makes perfect sense now.
"Now I never saw anyone doping, or was never bluntly offered anything, because this kind of stuff doesn't go on down at the track. It's done in their own apartments, houses, wherever. But that's what performance enhancing drugs are about, allowing athletes to train hard the whole year round, unlike us mere mortals.
"That's what's really hitting me, wondering how many of these athletes that actually beat me were taking drugs? That's the hardest part. Was I done out of a medal, or even fourth, or fifth? Have I been robbed of something?"
That's the equally sad part of the Gay and Powell affair, that they're not only cheating themselves but the whole sport and everyone in it.
What typically separates the cheats from those being cheated, however, is the level of noise and uproar about both the testing process and the process that follows: there are those who remain suspiciously quiet.
"I know the lifetime ban won't happen, for legal reasons or whatever. But there's no reason they can't make it a four-year ban. That's at least is an Olympic cycle. And when an athlete sees one of their closest rivals get done there should be more noise. I'm not hearing enough of that noise.

Why Declan? Why do we think he just happens to be a freak of nature when practically every other top sprinter, including lads he beats regularly, are dirty? Is it his personality, or just the fact that he seems to be a nice guy?

I have to say, I can't believe he isn't juiced.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Corner Forward on July 16, 2013, 08:40:37 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 16, 2013, 08:25:29 AM
Quote from: Declan on July 16, 2013, 08:20:53 AM
I'm normally skeptical when it comes to the drugs issue at top level sports but in Bolt's case I think he's just a freak of nature.

Interesting article with David Gillick this morning:

After processing the mild surprise and nagging disgust that both Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell had failed a doping test – the latest damning indictment on the sport, yet neither of whom he’d any reason to doubt – there was only one thing David Gillick felt like doing.
So he drove the short distance up to Marley Park, ran repeat hills next to the playground, and followed that with a weights session in the GAA clubhouse at nearby Ballinteer St John’s.
This was his old stomping ground, where Gillick first dreamed of running on the world stage, of standing on the medal podium to the tune of Amhrán na bhFiann. It was here Gillick took the first strides towards fulfilling that dream, which within a few years saw him win two European Indoor gold medals in the 400 metres, and run that still brilliant Irish record of 44.77 seconds.
It was here, he told me, that the mild surprise and nagging disgust turned to anger, and why now more than ever, Gillick feels the sport he still loves is being allowed to die.

Sad part
He’s not alone; to anyone else who still cares in that way – and we’re dying out ourselves – this is the sad part of what Gay and Powell have again revealed, that the sport still has the appetite for destruction, while its credibility drops dangerously close to zero.
Gillick has had his critics over the years, not always delivering on the big stage, but it’s never been through lack of effort. In 2009 he made the final of the World Championships in Berlin, finished an excellent sixth, as the American LaShawn Merritt cruised to the gold medal. A year later Merritt failed a doping test, and blamed it on a penis enlargement product, “ExtenZe”. His standard two-year ban was later reduced to 21 months, just in time for Merritt to be back competing at the London Olympics.
Gillick, in the meantime, after narrowly missing out on a medal at the 2010 European Championships in Barcelona, decided he needed to change something to step up to the next level. So he talked his way into one of the leading sprint training groups in the world, and moved to Clermont, Florida to join Gay, his coach Lance Brauman, and some of the other top names in the sport. Yet in trying, ultimately, to match these so-called Fastest Men on Earth, Gillick fell further behind, that being the very reason why doping still makes the crucial difference, and why as long as the penalty doesn’t fit the crime, will continue to do so.
“Yeah, I tried to stick with that, and for a while I did,” says Gillick. “Then I got as far as February and I tore my calf muscle, broke down completely. That’s when I started to question the intensity that these guys were training at, knocking it out, week after week. At that time Tyson Gay had a few injury problems, too. He would hop on a plane, go away for a week or two, then come back flying again.
“At the time it was hard to know what to imply by that, but in hindsight, it makes perfect sense now.
“Now I never saw anyone doping, or was never bluntly offered anything, because this kind of stuff doesn’t go on down at the track. It’s done in their own apartments, houses, wherever. But that’s what performance enhancing drugs are about, allowing athletes to train hard the whole year round, unlike us mere mortals.
“That’s what’s really hitting me, wondering how many of these athletes that actually beat me were taking drugs? That’s the hardest part. Was I done out of a medal, or even fourth, or fifth? Have I been robbed of something?”
That’s the equally sad part of the Gay and Powell affair, that they’re not only cheating themselves but the whole sport and everyone in it.
What typically separates the cheats from those being cheated, however, is the level of noise and uproar about both the testing process and the process that follows: there are those who remain suspiciously quiet.
“I know the lifetime ban won’t happen, for legal reasons or whatever. But there’s no reason they can’t make it a four-year ban. That’s at least is an Olympic cycle. And when an athlete sees one of their closest rivals get done there should be more noise. I’m not hearing enough of that noise.

Why Declan? Why do we think he just happens to be a freak of nature when practically every other top sprinter, including lads he beats regularly, are dirty? Is it his personality, or just the fact that he seems to be a nice guy?

I have to say, I can't believe he isn't juiced.

I wouldn't say just because Bolt has beaten these guys who have been on drugs means he has had to be on them himself.
I read Dwain Chambers book a while back he actually found when he looked back over his race times that he didn't performed any better when he raced on drugs than when he didn't.  The use of drugs seemed to have more of a psychological effect rather than a physical one. When athletes on drugs race well they believe it's down to the fact they are using banned substances and whenever they have a bad performance they feel they need to up their dosage.
The reality is for top athletes its fairly easy to use banned substances in the off season and go undetected. The main chance of getting caught is if they have been using drugs during the competition season.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Declan on July 16, 2013, 08:44:00 AM
No AZ it's just that he's been doing crazy times since he was a kid and is fairly open when it comes to his training regime. It does look mad when you consider that nearly everyone else has been caught alright. Maybe I'm trying to hang onto some ill informed innocence :D

I often remember a show I saw on a group of American sprinters once - think it might have been Maurice Greene's training group and one quote from a coach stood out for me. When asked about doping etc he asked the reporter what car he drove. Reporter replied normal family saloon and the coach said and when you look at a Ferrari F1 car is there a difference? Reporter replied yes obviously but what has that got to do with doping? and the coach said do you think they put the same gas into the F1 car that you put into your car?? 

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: ludermor on July 16, 2013, 08:50:03 AM
I think with Bolt he has been a freak since he was a kid and i would put him in the same category as Michael Johnson/ Michael Phelps/Ian Thorpe/Rushida who just seem to have extraordinary talent from a very early age . I have to say im normally very skeptical but i really dont think Bolt is juiced up
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: CCCP1 on July 16, 2013, 10:55:05 AM
Good article from a few years ago thats worth a read:
http://www.muscleweek.com/is-usain-bolt-on-steroids
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: omagh_gael on July 16, 2013, 12:03:23 PM
Was Larry Reilly ever tested?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: macdanger2 on July 16, 2013, 02:35:31 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on July 16, 2013, 12:03:23 PM
Was Larry Reilly ever tested?

They tried but were unable to find a needle capable of piercing his skin.

Larry Reilly is on his way to your house right now to kill you for suggesting he might be a drug cheat
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: rory on July 16, 2013, 04:24:00 PM
Saw this piece the other day on Reddit:

At the pinnacle of sports, nobody is clean, just a bullshit illusion.

Sprinters use mostly:

    hGH at a fairly low dose. The low dose is to avoid gaining water weight (or even excessive muscle weight) which would slow them down. It is mostly used to enhance recovery, allow them to tolerate more volume of work and MOSTLY for tendon strethening/repair. Sprinters are like F1 racing cars: high performance but break VERY easily. A common approach is 4-6IU EOD.

    Insulin. This is to facilitate recovery by enhancing glycogen resynthesis following training. It isn't used all the time; mostly after the most grueling training days (e.g. a day where they would have both high volume track work and strength training)... sprinters normally strength train 3 or 4 days a week, so they use insulin 3-4 days a week on average. (Dont try this at home, insulin is very dangerous if you dont know what you are doing)

    EPO. The role of EPO for improving endurance is well known. For that reason it is mostly associated with endurance athletes and it is often assumed that it doesn't give anything to the power/strength athlete. That is not true. EPO allows one to tolerate a greater overall volume of work and increases the rate of recovery. In performance athletics, drugs are mostly used to allow the athlete to train more often and with more volume.

    Testosterone. Some synthetic steroids might be used far away from competition (if the athlete doesn't live in a country that conducts random testing) but testosterone is the most comonly used AAS to improve strength and power. It is much easier to pass the drug tests when using testosterone, especially since some natural compounds can decrease the testo/Epitesto ratio that is used to test for testostetone use. A lot of athletes can get away with 50mg of testosterone propionate or suspension every 3 days without testing positive... some races can even use much higher doses of testosterone than that because they lack the enzyme UGT2B17 which increases testosterone excretion in the urine. Approximately 60% of Asians have very low levels of this enzyme. More than 50% of the individuals having low levels of enzymes can take 300-400mg of testosterone per week and not test positive.

Obviously athletes from countries with a rich track and field support program use more exotic compounds that are harder to detect.

The only reason Ben Johnson tested positive for stanozolol/winstrol is that he and Charlie Francis (his coach) didn't know that he was taking winstrol!

    Johnson never liked winstrol, the few times he used it it gave him severe joint pain which reduced his capacity to train.

    Charlie Francis went on record saying that he knew exactly how long before the last winstrol intake you needed to wait to avoid testing positive for it (harder now since the tests are more precise).

What happened is that Dr.Astafan told Francis and Johnson that he could get them furazabol. At that time furazabol was not detectable (a doping test doesn't scan for ''steroids''... it needs the exact molecule or it's metabolite to know what to search).

So all 3 believed that Johnson could continue taking it right up to the race whereas the other sprinters had to stop whatever they were using 10-14 days before, enough to get a small performance decrement that could make a big difference in placings.

The problem is that the furazabol they bought was actually relabeled winstrol sold for 4-5 times the price.

The anti-doping procedures are fairly strict now. In the information age, any stunt like that (pouring the piss down the drain) would eventually surface.

However:

    Many countries/federation do ''home tests'' for their athletes. So they know EXACTLY when they need to stop using XYZ substance and which one they can keep taking without testing positive. Each physiology is different so this gives top athletes (as it is very expensive) the insurance of being able to use without risking testing positive.

    A lot of the people who design drug tests are hired by some countries/federation to explain how to beat the tests.

    A urine test needs to know the exact chemical structure that they are testing for. It can either be a drug itself or it's metabolites. Any decent chemist can make slight modification to the structure of a drug to make it undetectable (e.g. the clear).

Believe me, nobody wants unbeatable tests. Why?

    If all of a sudden you can test everybody who uses drugs with 100% efficacy, the winning numbers or speed would drop by about 10% across the board. This will make the decades of abuse obvious as performance levels will go back to what they were around 1960-1970. No sport federation, or the IOC wants that.

    We have been used to a certain level of sporting performance. Why are people who don't give a sh*t about track keep talking about Bolt's 100 and 200m records? Because they boggle the mind... if all of a sudden nobody runs below 10s the general interest will drop... we could say the same about baseball for example. After the 1 year strike people lost interest and the next year's crowd started VERY low... what saved the season (financially speaking)? The McGuire/Sosa home run race. People like unimaginable feats... they want to see 60 home run hitters... you wont see that anymore. Notice that all the new baseball stadiums are very small... in Miami they have a 35 000 people capacity... during the home run craze you could see averages of 50 000 people per game.

    Sports is fueled by money:

    Players want more money... to get it they need (1) to outperform their rivals (2) for the teams to make a lot of money (if the teams don't make money, they cannot spend it on the players).

    Owners want to make money, so they need to pull more people to the stadium.

    The leagues want more money (which is spread over to the teams) so they need big TV contracts.

    The TV channels want more money and they get it by selling TV ads. The more viewer there are, the more they can charge for the air time.

    The comissioners want to make more money and their salary is based on how much money the teams make.

The KEY if everybody is gonna make money is general interest... not the die hard fans who will come no matter what but rather the guys who are on the fence and need something special to go to games, watch them on TV and buy team stuff.

If overall performance goes down, so does general interest. Less people watch the sport on TV, companies will spend less in advertisement, the league make less TV money, the teams receive less transfer, they have less money to invest in the players, etc.

    Coaches/trainers do not want effective tests either because people will realise that they aren't the geniuses people thought they were.

NOBODY want clean sport.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: JimStynes on December 09, 2014, 11:24:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1YlKaN3cPs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1YlKaN3cPs)
The german documentary on the Russian Doping system.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: NAG1 on December 10, 2014, 02:33:39 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on December 09, 2014, 11:24:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1YlKaN3cPs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1YlKaN3cPs)
The german documentary on the Russian Doping system.

I would say that the Jamaicans are not far behind in this type of systematic doping.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: ballinaman on July 19, 2016, 08:44:22 AM
http://www.bbc.com/sport/36829318

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 09:08:32 AM
Yet other countries athletes were able to beat them. Go figure!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Hereiam on July 19, 2016, 09:32:33 AM
America/Britain really going after Russia
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: smort on July 19, 2016, 09:35:42 AM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 09:08:32 AM
Yet other countries athletes were able to beat them. Go figure!

I don't think that is a fair comment Dinny, just because someone dopes doesn't mean they are necessarily going to win and beat non-dopers.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 09:53:54 AM
Of course it's fair comment, a doped athlete where it's directly performance enhancing such as EPO should beat a clean athlete every time.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on July 19, 2016, 09:57:43 AM
It's not a fair comment at all. The clean athlete may just be a considerably better athlete. it can happen. EPO etc is cheating but if you are an athlete who is quite a bit off the top then EPO will probably not get you there. It will give you gains but if you are far enough behind some clean athletes then potentially not enough.

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: AZOffaly on July 19, 2016, 10:32:51 AM
Two Athletes of similar 'natural' times. One dopes, one doesn't. The doper wins.

Two Athletes of way different natural times, with the doper being the slower of the two. The clean guy probably still wins, but the doper closes the gap.

I could be on all the PEDs in the world, plus Angel Dust, plus Red Bull and I still am not going to catch Usain Bolt.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Franko on July 19, 2016, 10:41:16 AM
Quote from: NAG1 on December 10, 2014, 02:33:39 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on December 09, 2014, 11:24:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1YlKaN3cPs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1YlKaN3cPs)
The german documentary on the Russian Doping system.

I would say that the Jamaicans are not far behind in this type of systematic doping.

I long for the day that Bolt's cheating is uncovered.  I fear though, that like the banks, he's become 'too big to fail' and that the whole thing would come down like a house of cards if he was caught.  Armstrong was only uncovered when he had pissed off that many people that they began to tell tales.  If Bolt keeps his nose clean in this regard he may manage to pull it off.  Chicken nuggets.  ::)
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: AZOffaly on July 19, 2016, 10:49:17 AM
Chicken Nuggets?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 10:49:42 AM
Ah Usain Bolt that great outlier 9/10 fastest athletes ever all have doped. Yet the fastest of them all hasn't, just as well his country has never produced doped athletes and has such an extensive anti-doping program.

No matter how talented you are a moderatly ability wise athlete who dopes will beat you. Those Russian athletes are considerably talented
athletes who would all avail of marginal gains via years of sports science research some of the best in the world and now also part of a doping program yet still couldn't beat clean athletes!!!! Now anyone who believes that is pretty naive imho.

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: AZOffaly on July 19, 2016, 10:55:31 AM
That doesn't make sense Dinny. Take my hyperbole above. I was relatively fast as a footballer, but I was no Jack McCaffery. Are you saying that if I doped, I'd be able to beat clean athletes at the Olympics? Are there any scientific numbers about performance gains related to doping? Any test subjects that say, Joe Bloggs ran an 11.5 100m 'clean', but after 2 years in a doping program, he now runs a 9.8?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 11:11:42 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 19, 2016, 10:55:31 AM
That doesn't make sense Dinny. Take my hyperbole above. I was relatively fast as a footballer, but I was no Jack McCaffery. Are you saying that if I doped, I'd be able to beat clean athletes at the Olympics? Are there any scientific numbers about performance gains related to doping? Any test subjects that say, Joe Bloggs ran an 11.5 100m 'clean', but after 2 years in a doping program, he now runs a 9.8?

When I speak about athletes I am talking about professional or Olympic qualifying standard. Not some old man who played a bit of county back in day  ;

I am holidays but check out Ross Tucker, he'd be a good start on improvements or just research the whole balco saga.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on July 19, 2016, 11:27:30 AM
There are wide ranging abilities of athletes at the olympics too Dinny.

I was watching the diamond league 3,000 meter steeple chase last week and the winning times were in the 8:40s to 8:50s. The qualifying times are about 9:45. Massive difference.The range in 100 meters is also probably about 0.4 seconds between personal bests.

To some degree you have a point but doping athlete always beating clean athlete is very sweeping.

I do believe Bolt is dubious and have my doubts about Farah too and the Dibaba in the 1500 meters however i don't think all of them are on it.

I really don't think Ruddisha, the 800 meter world record holder, is on it for example. He probably won't win gold either but he was at one point the best in the world.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: yellowcard on July 19, 2016, 11:46:20 AM
Track and field is a circus filled with actors and anyone who thinks otherwise is pretty naive. The argument that states that Bolt was a talented junior and is therefore likely to be clean is a red herring. Of course he was talented, most top level international athletes were already talented to begin with but the difference in a tenth of a second at that level is absolutely huge. The dedicated doper will generally beat the non doper at an elite level sport where athletes are already operating at a high standard. To a large extent the athletes themselves are the scapegoats, often the authorities, sponsors, media are just as much to blame for perpetuating the myth of abnormal performances.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: AZOffaly on July 19, 2016, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 11:11:42 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 19, 2016, 10:55:31 AM
That doesn't make sense Dinny. Take my hyperbole above. I was relatively fast as a footballer, but I was no Jack McCaffery. Are you saying that if I doped, I'd be able to beat clean athletes at the Olympics? Are there any scientific numbers about performance gains related to doping? Any test subjects that say, Joe Bloggs ran an 11.5 100m 'clean', but after 2 years in a doping program, he now runs a 9.8?

When I speak about athletes I am talking about professional or Olympic qualifying standard. Not some old man who played a bit of county back in day  ;

I am holidays but check out Ross Tucker, he'd be a good start on improvements or just research the whole balco saga.

OK, then I agree with you :)

I would love to see the stats on a test subject though, about incremental gains.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: yellowcard on July 19, 2016, 12:30:23 PM
http://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/the-effect-of-epo-on-performance/
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: AZOffaly on July 19, 2016, 12:44:01 PM
That seems to be in endurance. I was wondering about sprinters. Power and explosiveness with speed.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Franko on July 19, 2016, 01:18:22 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 19, 2016, 10:49:17 AM
Chicken Nuggets?

Referring to Bolt's tongue in cheek remark that his speed is down to his diet of his favourite food... chicken nuggets.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Franko on July 19, 2016, 01:25:15 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 19, 2016, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 11:11:42 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 19, 2016, 10:55:31 AM
That doesn't make sense Dinny. Take my hyperbole above. I was relatively fast as a footballer, but I was no Jack McCaffery. Are you saying that if I doped, I'd be able to beat clean athletes at the Olympics? Are there any scientific numbers about performance gains related to doping? Any test subjects that say, Joe Bloggs ran an 11.5 100m 'clean', but after 2 years in a doping program, he now runs a 9.8?

When I speak about athletes I am talking about professional or Olympic qualifying standard. Not some old man who played a bit of county back in day  ;

I am holidays but check out Ross Tucker, he'd be a good start on improvements or just research the whole balco saga.

OK, then I agree with you :)

I would love to see the stats on a test subject though, about incremental gains.

Genuinely, you could do worse than read through Tucker's twitter feed (although it might take a while - he's a pretty voracious tweeter).  His conclusions seem to be generally fact based although, in fairness, I don't understand most of the biomedical stuff he talks about so would be in no position to challenge them.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on July 19, 2016, 02:27:36 PM
Tucker is interesting though perhaps a bit more scientific than I would understand in this area. Is it him that gives out about the irish journalist Walsh a lot? I think it is.

It always makes me uncomfortable Coe's role in this. I know Russia are up to their neck in it but it seems very selective on them since he's been involved and sometimes you wonder with his tory background if he has political motivations there. When he was deputy all this stuff was going on. Why didn't he act on it then.

Dwain Chambers book was a good read on the sprinter stuff. Also interesting that the big catch in early noughties (was it?) of sprinters was more due to whistle blowing on Tim Montgomery not getting enough money rather than anyone being caught outright.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: ludermor on July 19, 2016, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 10:49:42 AM
Ah Usain Bolt that great outlier 9/10 fastest athletes ever all have doped. Yet the fastest of them all hasn't, just as well his country has never produced doped athletes and has such an extensive anti-doping program.

No matter how talented you are a moderatly ability wise athlete who dopes will beat you. Those Russian athletes are considerably talented
athletes who would all avail of marginal gains via years of sports science research some of the best in the world and now also part of a doping program yet still couldn't beat clean athletes!!!! Now anyone who believes that is pretty naive imho.
That sounds like it is taken direct from Digger Forum who thinks that absolutely every single successful athlete is souped up. . He is saying now that Rob Heffernan and Sonia O'Sullivan must be on the juice because they beat Russians who were .
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 04:16:32 PM
Quote from: ludermor on July 19, 2016, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 10:49:42 AM
Ah Usain Bolt that great outlier 9/10 fastest athletes ever all have doped. Yet the fastest of them all hasn't, just as well his country has never produced doped athletes and has such an extensive anti-doping program.

No matter how talented you are a moderatly ability wise athlete who dopes will beat you. Those Russian athletes are considerably talented
athletes who would all avail of marginal gains via years of sports science research some of the best in the world and now also part of a doping program yet still couldn't beat clean athletes!!!! Now anyone who believes that is pretty naive imho.
That sounds like it is taken direct from Digger Forum who thinks that absolutely every single successful athlete is souped up. . He is saying now that Rob Heffernan and Sonia O'Sullivan must be on the juice because they beat Russians who were .

Digger is a bit extreme got ratty with me because I defended Wenger on twitter after he stated Arsenal players were on PEDs because Paul Merson talked about orange gunk been injected in players. He's a cycling nut so can understand his cynism.

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: yellowcard on July 19, 2016, 06:02:01 PM
Quote from: ludermor on July 19, 2016, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 10:49:42 AM
Ah Usain Bolt that great outlier 9/10 fastest athletes ever all have doped. Yet the fastest of them all hasn't, just as well his country has never produced doped athletes and has such an extensive anti-doping program.

No matter how talented you are a moderatly ability wise athlete who dopes will beat you. Those Russian athletes are considerably talented
athletes who would all avail of marginal gains via years of sports science research some of the best in the world and now also part of a doping program yet still couldn't beat clean athletes!!!! Now anyone who believes that is pretty naive imho.
That sounds like it is taken direct from Digger Forum who thinks that absolutely every single successful athlete is souped up. . He is saying now that Rob Heffernan and Sonia O'Sullivan must be on the juice because they beat Russians who were .

Digger is aggressive in his accusations against dopers, thats his style. I would bet though that he is a lot closer to the truth than a complicit media, many journalists and several sporting authorities.

Why would it be so outlandish to simply question the performances of O'Sullivan and Heffernan for instance? Is it just because they are Irish. Whilst I don't think he outright accused them of doping, Heffernan's coach has served a doping ban so I think it is only right that questions be asked. Sometimes a lot more can be gained by looking at the reaction of individuals to being questioned about doping and how outspoken about it they are. You have to read between the lines and make your own mind up sometimes.   
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Minder on July 19, 2016, 08:11:28 PM
Horizon on bbc2 now
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 19, 2016, 08:52:48 PM
Quote from: Minder on July 19, 2016, 08:11:28 PM
Horizon on bbc2 now

Serious stuff... Erectile dysfunction and visual impairment kidney failure heart attack liver problems and so on!!!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: ludermor on July 20, 2016, 09:20:03 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on July 19, 2016, 06:02:01 PM
Quote from: ludermor on July 19, 2016, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 10:49:42 AM
Ah Usain Bolt that great outlier 9/10 fastest athletes ever all have doped. Yet the fastest of them all hasn't, just as well his country has never produced doped athletes and has such an extensive anti-doping program.

No matter how talented you are a moderatly ability wise athlete who dopes will beat you. Those Russian athletes are considerably talented
athletes who would all avail of marginal gains via years of sports science research some of the best in the world and now also part of a doping program yet still couldn't beat clean athletes!!!! Now anyone who believes that is pretty naive imho.
That sounds like it is taken direct from Digger Forum who thinks that absolutely every single successful athlete is souped up. . He is saying now that Rob Heffernan and Sonia O'Sullivan must be on the juice because they beat Russians who were .

Digger is aggressive in his accusations against dopers, thats his style. I would bet though that he is a lot closer to the truth than a complicit media, many journalists and several sporting authorities.

Why would it be so outlandish to simply question the performances of O'Sullivan and Heffernan for instance? Is it just because they are Irish. Whilst I don't think he outright accused them of doping, Heffernan's coach has served a doping ban so I think it is only right that questions be asked. Sometimes a lot more can be gained by looking at the reaction of individuals to being questioned about doping and how outspoken about it they are. You have to read between the lines and make your own mind up sometimes.
He goes way past being aggressive . He throws out loads of accusations and a lot of the time he will delete tweets if he is challenged. He may have a point but it can be lost in the constant accusations and conspiracies. Nobody is saying that Irish athletes should be except from any scrutiny or criticism but i would expect at least a little shred of evidence apart from the fact they beat people who were juiced up. And he most definitely did outright accuse them of doping. I followed him for a while and at the start he seemed quite interesting but after while realised you might as well be following Jim Corr.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: yellowcard on July 20, 2016, 07:47:10 PM
Quote from: ludermor on July 20, 2016, 09:20:03 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on July 19, 2016, 06:02:01 PM
Quote from: ludermor on July 19, 2016, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 19, 2016, 10:49:42 AM
Ah Usain Bolt that great outlier 9/10 fastest athletes ever all have doped. Yet the fastest of them all hasn't, just as well his country has never produced doped athletes and has such an extensive anti-doping program.

No matter how talented you are a moderatly ability wise athlete who dopes will beat you. Those Russian athletes are considerably talented
athletes who would all avail of marginal gains via years of sports science research some of the best in the world and now also part of a doping program yet still couldn't beat clean athletes!!!! Now anyone who believes that is pretty naive imho.
That sounds like it is taken direct from Digger Forum who thinks that absolutely every single successful athlete is souped up. . He is saying now that Rob Heffernan and Sonia O'Sullivan must be on the juice because they beat Russians who were .

Digger is aggressive in his accusations against dopers, thats his style. I would bet though that he is a lot closer to the truth than a complicit media, many journalists and several sporting authorities.

Why would it be so outlandish to simply question the performances of O'Sullivan and Heffernan for instance? Is it just because they are Irish. Whilst I don't think he outright accused them of doping, Heffernan's coach has served a doping ban so I think it is only right that questions be asked. Sometimes a lot more can be gained by looking at the reaction of individuals to being questioned about doping and how outspoken about it they are. You have to read between the lines and make your own mind up sometimes.
He goes way past being aggressive . He throws out loads of accusations and a lot of the time he will delete tweets if he is challenged. He may have a point but it can be lost in the constant accusations and conspiracies. Nobody is saying that Irish athletes should be except from any scrutiny or criticism but i would expect at least a little shred of evidence apart from the fact they beat people who were juiced up. And he most definitely did outright accuse them of doping. I followed him for a while and at the start he seemed quite interesting but after while realised you might as well be following Jim Corr.

Just for the day that's in it then, 20 years ago today this happened. A few select Irish journalists were castigated and scorned upon for even questioning one of our own. It was a blatant transformation similar to what we are currently witnessing with Christopher Froome. Yet the same mistakes are made again and again as the authorities, media, coaches and athletes treat an unsuspecting public like fools to make their fame and fortune.

http://buzz.ie/long-read-the-story-that-rocked-irish-sport-to-the-core-michelle-smith-in-atlanta-revisited/
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on July 20, 2016, 09:22:14 PM
Time for your yearly gripe about Froome? You should have built up a good portfolio of evidence by now, that must 3 years in a row (during the Tour) that you bring it up?? Bilharzia, holding a moto going up a Giro stage, Geert Leinders - that's most of your annual contribution summarised anyway.

You /The Stallion should do a joint presentation.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: yellowcard on July 20, 2016, 11:22:01 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 20, 2016, 09:22:14 PM
Time for your yearly gripe about Froome? You should have built up a good portfolio of evidence by now, that must 3 years in a row (during the Tour) that you bring it up?? Bilharzia, holding a moto going up a Giro stage, Geert Leinders - that's most of your annual contribution summarised anyway.

You /The Stallion should do a joint presentation.

Give it a rest man. I'm long past the point of even trying to convince those who want to believe, it's a pointless exercise. If you get great satisfaction watching sky and Froome making a mockery of the sport then I don't want to start pi***ng on your parade, just best to ignore. However I'm sorry I don't believe in miracles.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Minder on July 20, 2016, 11:42:56 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 20, 2016, 09:22:14 PM
Time for your yearly gripe about Froome? You should have built up a good portfolio of evidence by now, that must 3 years in a row (during the Tour) that you bring it up?? Bilharzia, holding a moto going up a Giro stage, Geert Leinders - that's most of your annual contribution summarised anyway.

You /The Stallion should do a joint presentation.

Did you believe in Armstrong when he started winning tours benny?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on July 21, 2016, 12:09:13 AM
Once the inconvenient issue of evidence is brought up, it all goes quiet.  It's very easy and very lazy to shout cheat and then not be able to back it up - and glib innuendo filled tweets don't count as evidence.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on July 21, 2016, 12:14:37 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 20, 2016, 11:42:56 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 20, 2016, 09:22:14 PM
Time for your yearly gripe about Froome? You should have built up a good portfolio of evidence by now, that must 3 years in a row (during the Tour) that you bring it up?? Bilharzia, holding a moto going up a Giro stage, Geert Leinders - that's most of your annual contribution summarised anyway.

You /The Stallion should do a joint presentation.

Did you believe in Armstrong when he started winning tours benny?
I came to cycling late (6/7 years ago) without the knowledge and baggage of suspecting everyone was doping so yes.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Asal Mor on July 21, 2016, 03:04:46 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on July 20, 2016, 07:47:10 PM
Just for the day that's in it then, 20 years ago today this happened. A few select Irish journalists were castigated and scorned upon for even questioning one of our own. It was a blatant transformation similar to what we are currently witnessing with Christopher Froome. Yet the same mistakes are made again and again as the authorities, media, coaches and athletes treat an unsuspecting public like fools to make their fame and fortune.

http://buzz.ie/long-read-the-story-that-rocked-irish-sport-to-the-core-michelle-smith-in-atlanta-revisited/

David Walsh seems to believe the Chris Froome story, having spent time with Team Sky. He also says that there was a believable form line there from early in Froome's career.

http://www.newstalk.com/david-walsh-on-inside-team-sky
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 21, 2016, 08:29:23 PM
Did Walsh believe Kelly and Roche were clean??
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: mikehunt on July 21, 2016, 09:29:08 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on July 20, 2016, 07:47:10 PM

http://buzz.ie/long-read-the-story-that-rocked-irish-sport-to-the-core-michelle-smith-in-atlanta-revisited/
That article confirms one thing for me, what a tool Eamon Coughlan is. I thougjt Jimmy McGee was the only one who claimed she was clean.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Declan on July 22, 2016, 09:00:09 AM
http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Off_The_Ball_Highlights/149905/Tour_de_France_2016__New_Tour_Same_Questions (http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Off_The_Ball_Highlights/149905/Tour_de_France_2016__New_Tour_Same_Questions)

Here's Ross Tucker on OTB last night
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: maddog on July 22, 2016, 11:04:35 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 21, 2016, 08:29:23 PM
Did Walsh believe Kelly and Roche were clean??

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kelly-Biography-Sean-David-Walsh/dp/1903088534 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kelly-Biography-Sean-David-Walsh/dp/1903088534)

Dont recall it being overly addressed in the book
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on July 22, 2016, 01:10:41 PM
I have that book, it says 2012 on Amazon but that must be the reprint date, checked the inside cover and it was written in 1986. It's been a few years since I read it but Kelly was technically caught doping, nothing huge and he appealed a few times to get it overturned, if it happened today probably something a TUE would have covered  IIRC correctly Walsh most definitely gives him the benefit of the doubt and was sympathetic. A different era in 1986.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Declan on July 29, 2016, 12:32:46 PM
http://sportsscientists.com/2016/07/fixed-matthew-syed-dismissal-whistleblower-fears/ (http://sportsscientists.com/2016/07/fixed-matthew-syed-dismissal-whistleblower-fears/)

Interesting post from Ross Tucker
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: muppet on July 29, 2016, 02:01:15 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 22, 2016, 01:10:41 PM
I have that book, it says 2012 on Amazon but that must be the reprint date, checked the inside cover and it was written in 1986. It's been a few years since I read it but Kelly was technically caught doping, nothing huge and he appealed a few times to get it overturned, if it happened today probably something a TUE would have covered  IIRC correctly Walsh most definitely gives him the benefit of the doubt and was sympathetic. A different era in 1986.

1988 and Ben Johnson was the watershed.

Up to that anyone caught for anything was merely an accident of flu medicine, ginseng etc, etc.

After Johnson everything changed so it is hard to compare the reaction to Kelly 1984-1986 and Roche TDF 1987. Delgado won the TDF in 1988 testing positive for a substance that was about to be banned, but technically wasn't. No one was too bothered then.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 29, 2016, 08:19:26 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 29, 2016, 02:01:15 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 22, 2016, 01:10:41 PM
I have that book, it says 2012 on Amazon but that must be the reprint date, checked the inside cover and it was written in 1986. It's been a few years since I read it but Kelly was technically caught doping, nothing huge and he appealed a few times to get it overturned, if it happened today probably something a TUE would have covered  IIRC correctly Walsh most definitely gives him the benefit of the doubt and was sympathetic. A different era in 1986.

1988 and Ben Johnson was the watershed.

Up to that anyone caught for anything was merely an accident of flu medicine, ginseng etc, etc.

After Johnson everything changed so it is hard to compare the reaction to Kelly 1984-1986 and Roche TDF 1987. Delgado won the TDF in 1988 testing positive for a substance that was about to be banned, but technically wasn't. No one was too bothered then.

The point is Walsh didn't really pursue any of this to any great degree... Everyone else was ripped apart
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Minder on July 29, 2016, 10:07:22 PM
Did he not have a falling out with Roche? And there is a famous joint interview on Late Late Show
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 29, 2016, 10:15:41 PM
Watched a doc about Walsh and he has a lot of personal grudges, sort of a hard done by attitude
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on July 29, 2016, 10:51:21 PM
Was it not kimmage and roche? Walsh used to be more respected but giving up on hounding sky has led to a few questions.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Minder on July 29, 2016, 11:20:53 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 29, 2016, 10:51:21 PM
Was it not kimmage and roche? Walsh used to be more respected but giving up on hounding sky has led to a few questions.

No it was definetly Walsh, the interview is on YouTube
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 29, 2016, 11:45:32 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 29, 2016, 10:51:21 PM
Was it not kimmage and roche? Walsh used to be more respected but giving up on hounding sky has led to a few questions.

You could be right... Kimmage or Walsh... Wasn't sure
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: ONeill on July 30, 2016, 01:24:05 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0qlliFq8U
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Minder on July 30, 2016, 01:59:23 AM
Quote from: ONeill on July 30, 2016, 01:24:05 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0qlliFq8U

Part 1

https://youtu.be/2y2wlKENW-M
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on July 30, 2016, 09:34:32 AM
Oh. Didn't know about that one.

Kimmage has left himself be consumed by the whole thing. Walsh maybe as bad too.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on July 30, 2016, 02:08:42 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 29, 2016, 10:51:21 PM
Was it not kimmage and roche? Walsh used to be more respected but giving up on hounding sky has led to a few questions.

In the current era of cycling when it is much easier (& popular) to be uber-sceptical, I think Walsh deserves great credit for staking his considerable reputation on Sky being clean, he has nailed his colours to the mast and fair play to him. Kimmage & Co hedge their bets on everything & everybody and snipe from the sidelines.  I know which approach I respect more.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 30, 2016, 02:11:49 PM
Zero respect for Walsh
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Asal Mor on July 30, 2016, 02:13:54 PM
Emails from Gary Hall Jr to Michelle Smith, from this Irish Times article.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/olympics-michelle-smith-saga-still-divides-20-years-on-1.2739687

Gary Hall jnr
Five times Olympic gold medallist, three times World Championship gold medallist

Hello again,
I'm not sure why I feel compelled to reach out, to repeat my request for justice. Why something that happened nearly 20 years ago keeps me up at night, I can't fully comprehend. Please, try to understand that (if you cheated) a terrible injustice has occurred. I plead that you recognize the untainted achievement of Marianne Limpert, Allison Wagner and Joanne Malar and any other swimmer displaced by your accomplishment at the 1996 Olympics.
The impact on those mentioned must be a terrible burden. I've witnessed a lasting psychological impairment in Allison Wagner. It troubles me deeply. I've lost touch with the other swimmers. As I've mentioned in previous emails, none of those swimmers know I write you. Right this wrong. Only you can. Please do the noble thing, in finding redemption. Only then can you truly put this behind you. It must be a terrible burden for you as well. At the very least, I'll stop writing these emails . . . Gary Hall jnr


From Allison Wagner's wiki page
At the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta, Georgia, Wagner won the silver medal in the 400-meter individual medley, finishing second behind Ireland's Michelle Smith. Four days later, she swam in the 200-meter individual medley and finished sixth.
On several occasions during Wagner's career, she was beaten in major championships by swimmers who were highly suspected or later proven to be users of banned performance-enhancing substances. Besides Michelle Smith in the 1996 Olympics, Wagner finished second behind China's Dai Guohong in the 1993 Short Course World Championships (200-meter individual medley) and China's Lü Bin at the 1994 Worlds (both 200-meter and 400-meter individual medley). Dai never failed a drug test, but Lu tested positive a few weeks after beating Wagner. Nevertheless, Lu was allowed to keep her 200-meter individual medley gold medal.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Asal Mor on July 30, 2016, 02:14:54 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 30, 2016, 02:08:42 PM
In the current era of cycling when it is much easier (& popular) to be uber-sceptical, I think Walsh deserves great credit for staking his considerable reputation on Sky being clean, he has nailed his colours to the mast and fair play to him. Kimmage & Co hedge their bets on everything & everybody and snipe from the sidelines.  I know which approach I respect more.
+1
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 30, 2016, 02:54:09 PM
The ironic thing is Kimmage is the one person who doesn't hedge his bets and lost his job plus has been sued numerous times. Walsh knows what side his bread is buttered on and is now obvious his pursuit of LA was personal and nothing to do with sporting justice or ethics. Walsh is a fraud.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 30, 2016, 03:04:21 PM
Great interview with Floyd Landis who would know a thing or two about winning the TDF and doping, needless to say doesn't thing much of Walshe's stance.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/hell-always-have-paris-floyd-landis-returns-to-the-tour-de-france/?utm_content=buffer2b05c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer  (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/hell-always-have-paris-floyd-landis-returns-to-the-tour-de-france/?utm_content=buffer2b05c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer)
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on July 30, 2016, 03:07:26 PM
I'm struggling to think of anything cycling related he's positively vouched for since the Garmin team.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on July 30, 2016, 03:08:54 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 30, 2016, 02:54:09 PM
The ironic thing is Kimmage is the one person who doesn't hedge his bets and lost his job plus has been sued numerous times. Walsh knows what side his bread is buttered on and is now obvious his pursuit of LA was personal and nothing to do with sporting justice or ethics. Walsh is a fraud.

Yeah i get the impression quite a few feel like that. No proof on sky but there is something about brailsford (isn't that his name?) doesn't sit right for me.

I think kimmage deserves respect but i think the whole escapade with him has had a damaging effect as a person. Seems an alright sort but totally consumed and has left him with demons.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: JimStynes on August 02, 2016, 08:51:55 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3718988/Olympic-cyclist-Lizzie-Armitstead-escapes-ban-three-missed-drugs-tests-Medal-favourite-allowed-compete-Rio-winning-minute-court-case.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3718988/Olympic-cyclist-Lizzie-Armitstead-escapes-ban-three-missed-drugs-tests-Medal-favourite-allowed-compete-Rio-winning-minute-court-case.html)

One of Britain's top cyclists has missed three drug tests but will still compete in Rio after winning a last minute court case, it emerged last night.

Lizzie Armistead, 27, who shot to fame in 2012 when she won Great Britain's first medal at the London Games with a silver in the women's road race, was facing up to a four-year ban after being charged last month by UK Anti-Doping for three 'whereabouts' failures in a 12 month period.

Under World Anti-Doping Agency Rules athletes are expected to pick an exact location for one hour every day in case they are needed for testing.

She was suspended on July 11, and as a consequence denied the chance to race in the final build-up to the Games.

But she has successfully argued at the Court of Arbitration for Sport to have the first of the three failures wiped off her record, claiming an administrative error by her accusers.

That has enabled Armitstead to race in Rio on Sunday as one of the favourites for gold.

Yesterday Armitstead issued a statement through her representatives, saying: 'It has been an extremely difficult time for myself and my family'.Armitstead had committed her three failures on August 20 2015, October 5 2015 and June 9 2016. But a legal team managed to demonstrate to the satisfaction of CAS that a testing official was at fault for the first test.

The Armitstead statement said: 'The ruling relates to a UKAD anti-doping test which was asserted to have been attempted on Thursday 20 August 2015, whilst Armitstead was staying at the team hotel, during the UCI Women's Road World Cup in Sweden.

'CAS ruled that the UKAD Doping Control Officer had not followed required procedures nor made reasonable attempts to locate Armitstead. CAS also ruled that there was no negligence on Armitstead's part and that she had followed procedures according to the guidelines.

'Armitstead undertook in-competition testing the following day, as leader of the UCI Women Road World Cup.'
The independent panel of leading legal experts from CAS promptly and unanimously cleared Armitstead of the asserted missed test.'

Sportsmail understands the testing official did not explain to hotel staff why he wanted to know Armitstead's room number at her team hotel in Sweden at around 6am that morning.

Having been refused the information by the hotel, he then attempted to contact Armitstead on a mobile phone that the cyclist had put on silent while she slept. No further attempts, it appears, were then made by the testing official and a missed test was logged with UKAD.

In the same statement Armitstead said: 'I have always been and will always be a clean athlete and have been vocal in my anti-doping stance throughout my career. I am pleased that CAS has accepted my position, having provided detailed information demonstrating the situation around my strikes.

'This issue was one of administration and was the result of UKAD not following proper procedure nor fully attempting to make contact with me despite clear details being provided under 'whereabouts'. I was tested in competition the day after this test, reinforcing my position that I do not cheat and had no intention of not being tested.

'I think that there should be clearer guidelines for those administrating tests and would like to work with UKAD going forward to explore how this can be better addressed in the future so no other athlete is put in this position.

Meanwhile, I hope that UKAD can now return to the important job of making sure all athletes are clean and that Rio is the clean Olympics that we all want.

'I understand how important it is to be vigilant in my role as a professional athlete and realise the potential implications this could have had. I would like to thank British Cycling and the team around me for all of their help and support. I am very much looking forward to putting this situation behind me and firmly focussing on Rio again after what has been an extremely difficult time for myself and my family.'

The two latter failures mean Armistead remains in a precarious position until October this year.

UK anti-doping rules state an athlete who misses three tests in any 12-month period can face up to a four-year ban.

British former Olympic champion runner Christine Ohuruogu was suspended for 12 months in 2006 after missing three tests.

In her statement, the Monaco-based rider took full responsibility for her latter two failures. 'The October 2015 failure was the result of a filing failure on ADAMS caused by an administrative oversight,' said the statement. 'Armitstead did not dispute the oversight. The June 2016 missed test was the result of Armitstead not updating her whereabouts on ADAMS, having had an emergency change of plans due to a serious illness within her family'

Armitstead, who plans to marry Team Sky rider Philip Deignan next month, is an outstanding bike rider, finally realising her potential last autumn when she won the world road race title with a stunning victory in Richmond, Virginia.

This season she has managed to race to six victories already despite taking the whole of May off to work on her climbing in preparation for the hilly Rio course.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on August 02, 2016, 01:23:11 PM
Can't say I've any sympathy for her, doping or not she's pretty much brought the situation  (& suspicion of doping) upon herself.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: JimStynes on August 02, 2016, 01:31:13 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 02, 2016, 01:23:11 PM
Can't say I've any sympathy for her, doping or not she's pretty much brought the situation  (& suspicion of doping) upon herself.

Three missed tests is a bit  :o No sympathy for her. Golden Girl of British cycling so it will all be swept under the carpet.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on August 02, 2016, 01:48:28 PM
I was reading about this this morning. Imagine she was russian. Double standards. Same happened with golden girl Ohuruogu - all swept under the carpet.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: nrico2006 on August 02, 2016, 01:52:30 PM
Why is Isinbayeva not allowed to compete and other Russians are?  Surely if there is no evidence to suggest an individual was guilty of doping then they cannot be banned purely on their nationality.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: screenexile on August 02, 2016, 02:29:04 PM
Ordinarily you'd give the girl the benefit of the doubt but it's just too difficult to in the current climate!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Minder on August 02, 2016, 02:37:43 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 02, 2016, 02:29:04 PM
Ordinarily you'd give the girl the benefit of the doubt but it's just too difficult to in the current climate!

I'm not sure you would give anyone the benefit of the doubt for three missed tests
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: gallsman on August 02, 2016, 02:39:28 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 02, 2016, 01:52:30 PM
Why is Isinbayeva not allowed to compete and other Russians are?  Surely if there is no evidence to suggest an individual was guilty of doping then they cannot be banned purely on their nationality.

What other track and field athletes from Russia are competing? The IAAF banned the lot.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Hound on August 02, 2016, 02:46:05 PM
Quote from: Minder on August 02, 2016, 02:37:43 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 02, 2016, 02:29:04 PM
Ordinarily you'd give the girl the benefit of the doubt but it's just too difficult to in the current climate!

I'm not sure you would give anyone the benefit of the doubt for three missed tests

Well:
1. Her phone was on silent at 6AM and the tester did not try again
2. Forgot to update the system re a change in her location due to "administrative oversight" on her own part.
3. Forgot to update the system re an emergency change of plans due to a serious illness within her family

Obviously no excuse at all for No.2, but its only after 3 misses that you get in trouble. You would think knowing that you have 2 strikes on your card would mean you would be ultra careful to keep the system updated re your whereabouts, but a sudden family illness would be one reason when you could perhaps forget

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on August 02, 2016, 02:57:26 PM
The first instance was the one that got her off so why didn't she contest it at the time ??
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Esmarelda on August 02, 2016, 02:57:59 PM
Did anyone hear Jimmy Magee's interview on the last word last week? Hilarious.

Balls.ie summarise it here quite well, although it's hard to beat listening to it and the silence that followed every time he spoke.

Also worth checking out Ewan McKenna's tweets after the show at the end.

http://www.balls.ie/uncategorized/utterly-bonkers-jimmy-magee-doping-messi-michelle-smith-odd-debate/341112
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: nrico2006 on August 02, 2016, 03:51:11 PM
Quote from: gallsman on August 02, 2016, 02:39:28 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 02, 2016, 01:52:30 PM
Why is Isinbayeva not allowed to compete and other Russians are?  Surely if there is no evidence to suggest an individual was guilty of doping then they cannot be banned purely on their nationality.

What other track and field athletes from Russia are competing? The IAAF banned the lot.

The big supermodel high jumper isn't banned.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: laoislad on August 02, 2016, 03:54:44 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 02, 2016, 03:51:11 PM
Quote from: gallsman on August 02, 2016, 02:39:28 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 02, 2016, 01:52:30 PM
Why is Isinbayeva not allowed to compete and other Russians are?  Surely if there is no evidence to suggest an individual was guilty of doping then they cannot be banned purely on their nationality.

What other track and field athletes from Russia are competing? The IAAF banned the lot.

The big supermodel high jumper isn't banned.
Rule 1
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: nrico2006 on August 02, 2016, 04:04:34 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Darya_Klishina.jpg)
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: screenexile on August 02, 2016, 04:13:36 PM
Ah yeah let her in she'll be grand  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Dinny Breen on August 02, 2016, 04:19:45 PM
She can handle my pole vault any day  8)
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Minder on August 02, 2016, 04:43:39 PM
Pretty informative article about the case

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/more-questions-than-answers-in-armitstead-case/


Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: gallsman on August 02, 2016, 05:36:51 PM
Klishina is a) a long jumper and b) exempt from the ban as she's been allowed to compete as a neutral due to all her training being based in the states. She's done nothing for years though so any hint of a medal would likely mean she should have been banned with the rest of them.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: muppet on August 02, 2016, 05:49:19 PM
Quote from: Minder on August 02, 2016, 04:43:39 PM
Pretty informative article about the case

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/more-questions-than-answers-in-armitstead-case/

"Armitstead said that her phone was on silent and that hotel staff had refused to give the tester her room number."

In my experience it is normal for a hotel NOT to give out the room number of a guest. However, it would be normal for the hotel to either phone the guest or put the visitor straight through to the room (without giving the room number). If this happened, why did she not answer?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: red hander on August 02, 2016, 05:55:32 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 02, 2016, 01:48:28 PM
I was reading about this this morning. Imagine she was russian. Double standards. Same happened with golden girl Ohuruogu - all swept under the carpet.

Exactly. Would sicken your hole watching Sky Sports. They had your woman Chennui whose accent would strip wallpaper reporting on it, but the whole angle was how the plucky Brit wouldn't let all the furore affect her performance and she'd be ready to go ... absolutely f**k all about the meat and bones of the issue. Now, if it was a Russian... hypocritical Brit f**kers  >:(
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: nrico2006 on August 03, 2016, 08:21:37 AM
Quote from: red hander on August 02, 2016, 05:55:32 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 02, 2016, 01:48:28 PM
I was reading about this this morning. Imagine she was russian. Double standards. Same happened with golden girl Ohuruogu - all swept under the carpet.

Exactly. Would sicken your hole watching Sky Sports. They had your woman Chennui whose accent would strip wallpaper reporting on it, but the whole angle was how the plucky Brit wouldn't let all the furore affect her performance and she'd be ready to go ... absolutely f**k all about the meat and bones of the issue. Now, if it was a Russian... hypocritical Brit f**kers  >:(

I was thinking the same at the weekend, that dolls accent is fierce.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Asal Mor on August 03, 2016, 09:47:09 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on August 02, 2016, 02:57:59 PM
Did anyone hear Jimmy Magee's interview on the last word last week? Hilarious.

Balls.ie summarise it here quite well, although it's hard to beat listening to it and the silence that followed every time he spoke.

Also worth checking out Ewan McKenna's tweets after the show at the end.

http://www.balls.ie/uncategorized/utterly-bonkers-jimmy-magee-doping-messi-michelle-smith-odd-debate/341112
;D Hilarious from Jimmy alright.

Mckenna doesn't come off great there though. Says nothing on air and then rips Jimmy apart on Twitter to show how "right on" he is. The actions of a pr!ck I would say.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: screenexile on August 03, 2016, 09:50:56 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 03, 2016, 08:21:37 AM
Quote from: red hander on August 02, 2016, 05:55:32 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 02, 2016, 01:48:28 PM
I was reading about this this morning. Imagine she was russian. Double standards. Same happened with golden girl Ohuruogu - all swept under the carpet.

Exactly. Would sicken your hole watching Sky Sports. They had your woman Chennui whose accent would strip wallpaper reporting on it, but the whole angle was how the plucky Brit wouldn't let all the furore affect her performance and she'd be ready to go ... absolutely f**k all about the meat and bones of the issue. Now, if it was a Russian... hypocritical Brit f**kers  >:(

I was thinking the same at the weekend, that dolls accent is fierce.

f**king Tyronies can do nothing but give out about Derry wans!!!

Fine Screen woman she is doing a good job!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 03, 2016, 10:32:49 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 03, 2016, 09:50:56 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 03, 2016, 08:21:37 AM
Quote from: red hander on August 02, 2016, 05:55:32 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 02, 2016, 01:48:28 PM
I was reading about this this morning. Imagine she was russian. Double standards. Same happened with golden girl Ohuruogu - all swept under the carpet.

Exactly. Would sicken your hole watching Sky Sports. They had your woman Chennui whose accent would strip wallpaper reporting on it, but the whole angle was how the plucky Brit wouldn't let all the furore affect her performance and she'd be ready to go ... absolutely f**k all about the meat and bones of the issue. Now, if it was a Russian... hypocritical Brit f**kers  >:(

I was thinking the same at the weekend, that dolls accent is fierce.

f**king Tyronies can do nothing but give out about Derry wans!!!

Fine Screen woman she is doing a good job!
I know - the irony of  a Strabanian mocking someone's accent!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: JimStynes on September 13, 2016, 11:52:31 PM
http://fancybear.net (http://fancybear.net)
Could get interesting!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: haranguerer on September 14, 2016, 11:10:20 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37352326

Would appear to be legit too
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on September 14, 2016, 11:37:20 AM
That can only be a good thing I think. Russia have a lot to answer for but they are far from alone and no matter what Coe says it stinks to me of nothing more than politics.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Hound on September 14, 2016, 12:37:39 PM
So Biles is taking drugs to control her ADD...

Have they said what ailments the Williams sisters have for which they received their TUE?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: johnneycool on September 14, 2016, 02:43:03 PM
Quote from: Hound on September 14, 2016, 12:37:39 PM
So Biles is taking drugs to control her ADD...

Have they said what ailments the Williams sisters have for which they received their TUE?

Nothing to see here, move along;


Dextroamphetamine (American English) or dexamfetamine (Commonwealth English)[note 1] is a potent central nervous system (CNS) stimulant and amphetamine enantiomer that is prescribed for the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and narcolepsy.[13][14] It is also used as an athletic performance and cognitive enhancer, and recreationally as an aphrodisiac and euphoriant. Dextroamphetamine is also widely used by military air forces as a 'go-pill' during fatigue-inducing mission profiles such as night-time bombing missions. Preparations containing dextroamphetamine were also used in World War II as a treatment against fatigue.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: dferg on September 14, 2016, 03:38:00 PM
I'd say if the Russians have access to a file of American athletes and who is taking what they may well keep a few names and unusual test results back.  I see your [barely known Russian shot putter] and raise you ... that could get interesting.

The Williams sisters being named already looks like tit for tat for Maria Sharapova getting the finger pointed at.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: ONeill on September 14, 2016, 11:28:45 PM
I'd be devastated if Johnny Logan or Dennis Taylor were wiped the the eyeballs during their pomp in the 80s.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: never kickt a ball on September 14, 2016, 11:47:42 PM
I wonder.............

https://youtu.be/IaadphJyy50
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Wildweasel74 on September 15, 2016, 12:28:25 AM
prednisone , I think thats what the doctor gives me for a bad chest infection,
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: haranguerer on September 15, 2016, 08:34:46 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37369705

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2016/09/15/sir-bradley-wiggins-and-chris-froome-given-drugs-exemption-new-d/

Salbutamol for Wiggo, Prednisolone for Froome
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: The Stallion on September 15, 2016, 08:48:54 AM
Lol at all those morons on here who assured us Froome was clean.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: AZOffaly on September 15, 2016, 09:05:00 AM
If he's on a TUE then he is 'clean'.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: doodaa on September 15, 2016, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 15, 2016, 08:34:46 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37369705

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2016/09/15/sir-bradley-wiggins-and-chris-froome-given-drugs-exemption-new-d/

Salbutamol for Wiggo, Prednisolone for Froome

Salbutamol is what's in my preventative inhaler.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: gallsman on September 15, 2016, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: doodaa on September 15, 2016, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 15, 2016, 08:34:46 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37369705

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2016/09/15/sir-bradley-wiggins-and-chris-froome-given-drugs-exemption-new-d/

Salbutamol for Wiggo, Prednisolone for Froome

Salbutamol is what's in my preventative inhaler.

Yes, it's remarkable how many elite athletes in endurance sports are asthmatic, isn't it?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on September 15, 2016, 11:46:59 AM
It's always on the increase. It almost seems like a doctor's note when you're at school or something. Could they not have an independent doctor, or set of doctors, who they trust to verify these things?

i.e. your doctor says you need a TUE then you need our doctor to ok it otherwise you're not allowed?

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: gallsman on September 15, 2016, 12:02:15 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 15, 2016, 11:46:59 AM
It's always on the increase. It almost seems like a doctor's note when you're at school or something. Could they not have an independent doctor, or set of doctors, who they trust to verify these things?

i.e. your doctor says you need a TUE then you need our doctor to ok it otherwise you're not allowed?

The argument in tennis is that that's exactly how it is. Three man board reviews a TUE request.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Hound on September 15, 2016, 12:55:10 PM
Absolutely no reason why TUEs should be kept secret.

In professional sports, any exemptions given to athletes to take banned substance should be made public, so competitiors, media and spectators are aware. Transparency is what is required. And it will leave said athlete with more answering to do.

If a professional athlete wants to keep a condition a secret, then use a treatment that is not on the banned list.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: thebigfella on September 15, 2016, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 15, 2016, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: doodaa on September 15, 2016, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 15, 2016, 08:34:46 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37369705

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2016/09/15/sir-bradley-wiggins-and-chris-froome-given-drugs-exemption-new-d/

Salbutamol for Wiggo, Prednisolone for Froome

Salbutamol is what's in my preventative inhaler.

Yes, it's remarkable how many elite athletes in endurance sports are asthmatic, isn't it?

Not really, I suffer from exercise induced asthma and it's quite common. I only developed it or only came to light in my early 20's when I started a lot more endurance training or exercise. Froome and Wiggins is no secret to be fair.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: gallsman on September 15, 2016, 01:04:38 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on September 15, 2016, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 15, 2016, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: doodaa on September 15, 2016, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 15, 2016, 08:34:46 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37369705

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2016/09/15/sir-bradley-wiggins-and-chris-froome-given-drugs-exemption-new-d/

Salbutamol for Wiggo, Prednisolone for Froome

Salbutamol is what's in my preventative inhaler.

Yes, it's remarkable how many elite athletes in endurance sports are asthmatic, isn't it?

Not really, I suffer from exercise induced asthma and it's quite common. I only developed it or only came to light in my early 20's when I started a lot more endurance training or exercise. Froome and Wiggins is no secret to be fair.

I hear lots of elite athletes only begin training in their 20s.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: stew on September 15, 2016, 01:30:16 PM
There have long been rumours of drug use in tennis, Nadal is said to be on the juice as has the Williams sisters, they are rampant everywhere because the money is so big and if you are not juicing it is nearly impossible to compete with the top men, especially in cycling.

It is time to let them take whatever they want to even the playing field, I am at the point were I trust no top sportsman or woman, that's ok because they don't give a shite about my or anyone else's opinions, right up until the point they get caught.

One last thing, I hope the Russians get hacked as well, Putin is bitch slapping Obama around the place and I would love to see him get slapped around for a while, a deplorable bastard is Vlad!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: johnneycool on September 15, 2016, 01:59:36 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on September 15, 2016, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 15, 2016, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: doodaa on September 15, 2016, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 15, 2016, 08:34:46 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37369705

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2016/09/15/sir-bradley-wiggins-and-chris-froome-given-drugs-exemption-new-d/

Salbutamol for Wiggo, Prednisolone for Froome

Salbutamol is what's in my preventative inhaler.

Yes, it's remarkable how many elite athletes in endurance sports are asthmatic, isn't it?

Not really, I suffer from exercise induced asthma and it's quite common. I only developed it or only came to light in my early 20's when I started a lot more endurance training or exercise. Froome and Wiggins is no secret to be fair.

So do I and it was at its worse in my early teens. It was only when I got myself properly fit in my early 20's that the effects of it wore off to the extent I was able to stop using my inhaler for the better part of 10 years.

try the buteyko breathing method. it helps!!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: outinfront on September 15, 2016, 02:04:24 PM
I have on several occasions after very intense maximum effort training/fitness tests experienced "temporary" exercise induced asthma.  It is uncomfortable but fades after a day.  I have no doubt that elite athletes may experience this often.  Studies on the use of these asthma drugs have shown that they have no impact on improving performance.  In fact if you are not asthmatic and using them then it could leave you open to side effects such as dizziness and nausea which would in fact be performance hindering.  Don't get me wrong many of these guys are on everything going, but just suggesting/debating that the asthma medication may not be performance enhancing.

Edit: It may help with being able to maintain an intense training load though as it would obviously help relieve the symptoms of asthma after intense bouts of effort.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: johnneycool on September 15, 2016, 02:38:49 PM
Quote from: outinfront on September 15, 2016, 02:04:24 PM
I have on several occasions after very intense maximum effort training/fitness tests experienced "temporary" exercise induced asthma.  It is uncomfortable but fades after a day.  I have no doubt that elite athletes may experience this often.  Studies on the use of these asthma drugs have shown that they have no impact on improving performance.  In fact if you are not asthmatic and using them then it could leave you open to side effects such as dizziness and nausea which would in fact be performance hindering.  Don't get me wrong many of these guys are on everything going, but just suggesting/debating that the asthma medication may not be performance enhancing.

Edit: It may help with being able to maintain an intense training load though as it would obviously help relieve the symptoms of asthma after intense bouts of effort.

Dr Neil Francis of the University Hospital of bullshittery would disagree with you there!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: outinfront on September 15, 2016, 02:52:21 PM
I'm no professor just saying what I've read. 
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: outinfront on September 15, 2016, 02:54:48 PM
Then again don't trust everything you read as they say haha
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: muppet on September 15, 2016, 03:10:26 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on September 15, 2016, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 15, 2016, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: doodaa on September 15, 2016, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 15, 2016, 08:34:46 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37369705

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2016/09/15/sir-bradley-wiggins-and-chris-froome-given-drugs-exemption-new-d/

Salbutamol for Wiggo, Prednisolone for Froome

Salbutamol is what's in my preventative inhaler.

Yes, it's remarkable how many elite athletes in endurance sports are asthmatic, isn't it?

Not really, I suffer from exercise induced asthma and it's quite common. I only developed it or only came to light in my early 20's when I started a lot more endurance training or exercise. Froome and Wiggins is no secret to be fair.

I suffer from exercise induced being bollixed. I believe it is vey common. I wish we all could take some steroids to help with my being bollixed after exercise. Then maybe I could exercise some more straight away.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: outinfront on September 15, 2016, 03:18:12 PM
hahaha! True!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: doodaa on September 15, 2016, 03:33:39 PM
Quote from: muppet on September 15, 2016, 03:10:26 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on September 15, 2016, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 15, 2016, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: doodaa on September 15, 2016, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 15, 2016, 08:34:46 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37369705

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2016/09/15/sir-bradley-wiggins-and-chris-froome-given-drugs-exemption-new-d/

Salbutamol for Wiggo, Prednisolone for Froome

Salbutamol is what's in my preventative inhaler.

Yes, it's remarkable how many elite athletes in endurance sports are asthmatic, isn't it?

Not really, I suffer from exercise induced asthma and it's quite common. I only developed it or only came to light in my early 20's when I started a lot more endurance training or exercise. Froome and Wiggins is no secret to be fair.

I suffer from exercise induced being bollixed. I believe it is vey common. I wish we all could take some steroids to help with my being bollixed after exercise. Then maybe I could exercise some more straight away.

Whilst you might be bollixed after training it isn't for the same reasons outinfront or I would be bollixed (not entirely anyway). Your airways remain fully open at all time during exercise, outinfront and mine constrict slightly thus reducing how quickly we can get the air in (in extreme case ie an asthma attack the airways close fully). The use of inhalers just brings us back up to a starting point that you would always be at.

In saying all this ^^^^^ I don't actually take my inhalers as I should. I am supposed to take them everyday as per the doctors instructions, however I am not that bad that I think I need them day to day. But I wonder how performance hindered ive been over the 20 odd years due to not taking them?
Reality is laziness probably hindered me a lot more lol
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Esmarelda on September 15, 2016, 03:55:29 PM
Quote from: stew on September 15, 2016, 01:30:16 PM
There have long been rumours of drug use in tennis, Nadal is said to be on the juice as has the Williams sisters, they are rampant everywhere because the money is so big and if you are not juicing it is nearly impossible to compete with the top men, especially in cycling.

It is time to let them take whatever they want to even the playing field, I am at the point were I trust no top sportsman or woman, that's ok because they don't give a shite about my or anyone else's opinions, right up until the point they get caught.

One last thing, I hope the Russians get hacked as well, Putin is bitch slapping Obama around the place and I would love to see him get slapped around for a while, a deplorable b**tard is Vlad!
Why do you think that?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Boycey on September 15, 2016, 04:30:37 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 15, 2016, 03:55:29 PM
Quote from: stew on September 15, 2016, 01:30:16 PM
There have long been rumours of drug use in tennis, Nadal is said to be on the juice as has the Williams sisters, they are rampant everywhere because the money is so big and if you are not juicing it is nearly impossible to compete with the top men, especially in cycling.

It is time to let them take whatever they want to even the playing field, I am at the point were I trust no top sportsman or woman, that's ok because they don't give a shite about my or anyone else's opinions, right up until the point they get caught.

One last thing, I hope the Russians get hacked as well, Putin is bitch slapping Obama around the place and I would love to see him get slapped around for a while, a deplorable b**tard is Vlad!
Why do you think that?

In fairness that seems to be stews default opinion of most people...
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on September 15, 2016, 06:57:36 PM
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/comment/whats-deal-asthma-pro-cycling-223300?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social#wfrz6lBctEh81qgi.99
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: macdanger2 on September 15, 2016, 07:14:04 PM
Just finished reading The Secret Race by Tyler Hamilton, good book
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: thebigfella on September 16, 2016, 09:48:20 AM
Quote from: gallsman on September 15, 2016, 01:04:38 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on September 15, 2016, 12:58:41 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 15, 2016, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: doodaa on September 15, 2016, 10:15:18 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 15, 2016, 08:34:46 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37369705

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2016/09/15/sir-bradley-wiggins-and-chris-froome-given-drugs-exemption-new-d/

Salbutamol for Wiggo, Prednisolone for Froome

Salbutamol is what's in my preventative inhaler.

Yes, it's remarkable how many elite athletes in endurance sports are asthmatic, isn't it?

Not really, I suffer from exercise induced asthma and it's quite common. I only developed it or only came to light in my early 20's when I started a lot more endurance training or exercise. Froome and Wiggins is no secret to be fair.

I hear lots of elite athletes only begin training in their 20s.

As I say it only came to light in "my" early 20's ::)
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: gallsman on September 16, 2016, 09:57:10 AM
Yes, I get what you meant. What I'm saying is I think it's daft that someone like Mo Farah, who was/is meant to be an elite athlete, can be diagnosed/re-diagnosed at age 27 as requiring new medication to treat his asthma.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: haranguerer on September 19, 2016, 03:49:00 PM
Mo in the latest batch. Triamcinolone

http://fancybear.net/pages/4.html
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: The Stallion on March 07, 2017, 01:50:08 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 20, 2016, 09:22:14 PM
Time for your yearly gripe about Froome? You should have built up a good portfolio of evidence by now, that must 3 years in a row (during the Tour) that you bring it up?? Bilharzia, holding a moto going up a Giro stage, Geert Leinders - that's most of your annual contribution summarised anyway.

You /The Stallion should do a joint presentation.



Remember people used to seriously think Froome and Sky were whiter than white lol. How naive.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Esmarelda on March 07, 2017, 01:56:07 PM
Very little media coverage of this, unsurprisingly.

http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1047425/wada-admits-mclaren-evidence-not-sufficient-in-many-cases-claims-de-kepper
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on May 28, 2017, 08:37:10 AM
http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/intercounty-footballer-awaits-fate-over-failed-drugs-test-35763054.html
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: tonto1888 on May 28, 2017, 09:32:51 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 15, 2016, 07:14:04 PM
Just finished reading The Secret Race by Tyler Hamilton, good book

I recently watched the film the program. Armstrong was my hero. It's amazing the excuses you will make for someone. After him I just don't trust cycling at all. None of them.
Also worth pointing out I do think he was made the scapegoat for all of cyclings ills. Brought it on himself of course.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: macdanger2 on May 28, 2017, 11:06:13 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on May 28, 2017, 08:37:10 AM
http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/intercounty-footballer-awaits-fate-over-failed-drugs-test-35763054.html

Hard to believe that there aren't dozens of players taking something illegal
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on May 28, 2017, 11:19:32 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on May 28, 2017, 08:37:10 AM
http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/intercounty-footballer-awaits-fate-over-failed-drugs-test-35763054.html

Brendan O'Sullivan of Kerry is the player.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on May 28, 2017, 11:20:12 AM
http://www.kerrygaa.ie/news/10024418/Statement_from_Kerry_County_Committee_Saturday_27th_May_2017
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: macdanger2 on May 28, 2017, 12:08:24 PM
I'd say you're raging that it's not Aido  ;D
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on May 28, 2017, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 28, 2017, 12:08:24 PM
I'd say you're raging that it's not Aido  ;D

Doesn't bother me.

No doubt there will be little discussion that the only two players to fail a drugs test in competition have been Kerry players.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 28, 2017, 02:35:23 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on May 28, 2017, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 28, 2017, 12:08:24 PM
I'd say you're raging that it's not Aido  ;D

Doesn't bother me.

No doubt there will be little discussion that the only two players to fail a drugs test in competition have been Kerry players.
He served a suspension without anyone knowing about it?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on May 28, 2017, 02:40:49 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on May 28, 2017, 02:35:23 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on May 28, 2017, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 28, 2017, 12:08:24 PM
I'd say you're raging that it's not Aido  ;D

Doesn't bother me.

No doubt there will be little discussion that the only two players to fail a drugs test in competition have been Kerry players.
He served a suspension without anyone knowing about it?

Yep. Presumably he served a one year ban dating from the league final last year to now. All hush hush until it was up.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: mcklatchee on May 28, 2017, 07:51:37 PM
What level of testing are GAA players subjected to? Who pays for it? Any in College games?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on May 28, 2017, 07:54:27 PM
http://www.newstalk.com/Paul-Kimmage:-Theres-a-sense-that-this-is-being-managed-rather-than-addressed

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: omaghjoe on May 28, 2017, 07:59:08 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on May 28, 2017, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 28, 2017, 12:08:24 PM
I'd say you're raging that it's not Aido  ;D

Doesn't bother me.

No doubt there will be little discussion that the only two players to fail a drugs test in competition have been Kerry players.

I thought there was a Monaghan player failed one also?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: The Subbie on May 29, 2017, 01:07:53 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 28, 2017, 07:59:08 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on May 28, 2017, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 28, 2017, 12:08:24 PM
I'd say you're raging that it's not Aido  ;D

Doesn't bother me.

No doubt there will be little discussion that the only two players to fail a drugs test in competition have been Kerry players.

I thought there was a Monaghan player failed one also?
Correct Joe
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on June 16, 2017, 10:31:19 PM
Operacion Puerto in the news again. As someone tweeted today, somebody just go ahead and leak it ffs

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/news/news/Tennis_Stories/44440/operacion-puerto-3536-athletes-may-be-involvedbut-no-one-is-found-guilty/
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: JimStynes on June 17, 2017, 07:22:59 AM
Quote from: bennydorano on June 16, 2017, 10:31:19 PM
Operacion Puerto in the news again. As someone tweeted today, somebody just go ahead and leak it ffs

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/news/news/Tennis_Stories/44440/operacion-puerto-3536-athletes-may-be-involvedbut-no-one-is-found-guilty/

I know. I am tired of it now. Just leak all the names ffs
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on August 08, 2018, 08:33:40 AM
Story on the back of the 'i' paper this morning about 6 Footballers (PL/EFL U18/U21 / Womens) testing positive for recreational drug use.  Also says there'll be significantly more testing for PEDs this season.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: JimStynes on August 08, 2018, 01:03:44 PM
If football was tested to the level of cycling there would be loads more caught
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: oakleaflad on August 08, 2018, 01:16:44 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 08, 2018, 08:33:40 AM
Story on the back of the 'i' paper this morning about 6 Footballers (PL/EFL U18/U21 / Womens) testing positive for recreational drug use.  Also says there'll be significantly more testing for PEDs this season.
If this is across all leagues from Premier League to League 2, including underage and women's teams then i'm not surprised at 6 doing recreational drugs. I'd say there are plenty more who smoke a bit of weed or do cocaine when out and about (it's everywhere).
PED's are a different kettle of fish altogether.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: AZOffaly on August 08, 2018, 01:26:58 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on August 08, 2018, 01:16:44 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 08, 2018, 08:33:40 AM
Story on the back of the 'i' paper this morning about 6 Footballers (PL/EFL U18/U21 / Womens) testing positive for recreational drug use.  Also says there'll be significantly more testing for PEDs this season.
If this is across all leagues from Premier League to League 2, including underage and women's teams then i'm not surprised at 6 doing recreational drugs. I'd say there are plenty more who smoke a bit of weed or do cocaine when out and about (it's everywhere).
PED's are a different kettle of fish altogether.

They just tested Maradona 6 times.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 08, 2018, 11:10:43 PM
Sure what odds about recreational drugs?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bennydorano on May 01, 2019, 01:11:21 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48102479

Caster Semenya: Olympic 800m champion loses appeal against IAAF testosterone rules

I'd imagine this will be overturned somewhere along the line. I'd be of the opinion that a lot of those who rise to the top of any elite sport are in some way genetic freaks (in a very lucky way).
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: screenexile on May 01, 2019, 02:12:59 PM
Complicated case and for the case of one athlete I think it's the right decision. . . I know it's extremely harsh on Semenya but you need a level playing field for womens sports and while it is hugely offensive to one person you have to look at the overall picture and the rise of trans athletes being able to switch gender in sports which is ridiculous!!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: oakleaflad on October 01, 2019, 10:51:43 AM
https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/49882757 (https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/49882757)

Alberto Salazar banned for four years for doping violations.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: WT4E on October 01, 2019, 11:16:49 AM
Makes you wonder how Mo gets away with it and how they thought giving him thee old sir title was a good idea!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: GetOverTheBar on October 01, 2019, 11:28:18 AM
Quote from: oakleaflad on October 01, 2019, 10:51:43 AM
https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/49882757 (https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/49882757)

Alberto Salazar banned for four years for doping violations.

This is massive. Nike also have massive questions to answer. Of course it will be met with a wall of silence.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: nrico2006 on October 01, 2019, 11:31:40 AM
Will Farah ever be caught though?
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: GetOverTheBar on October 01, 2019, 11:46:35 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 01, 2019, 11:31:40 AM
Will Farah ever be caught though?

Probably quickly putting together a statement distancing himself from Salazar

All you have to do is google fancy bears and Mo Farah....says it all.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 01, 2019, 12:27:02 PM
Up to his neck in it. Must be questions on Radcliffe too. The dogs on the street knew Salazar was up to his neck in it so why were they associating with him??
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 02, 2019, 08:31:07 AM
Massive uproar about Radcliffe and her bbc interview.saying the four year investigation was a reaction to the Coleman saga even though it started first lol.

Serious questions about her now.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: screenexile on October 02, 2019, 09:19:18 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 02, 2019, 08:31:07 AM
Massive uproar about Radcliffe and her bbc interview.saying the four year investigation was a reaction to the Coleman saga even though it started first lol.

Serious questions about her now.

One of the worst interviews I've ever seen... what was she at??!!! She should have condemned the shit out of him and fended for herself and there may have been a few people who still believed she was clean but that was a car crash!!

MacKenna all over it too one of the scant few things he is actually right about.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 02, 2019, 09:22:13 AM
I can't stand him but yeah she really has let herself down. Sounds like don't bite the hand that feeds you and the questionable morals now would make you question what morals she had when she broke those world records!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: GetOverTheBar on October 02, 2019, 09:51:15 AM
Lads if we are being honest, the only reason athletics is in the shit with regards to doping is because the money involved is a lot less than the stellar sports and as a result, the doping techniques aren't at a higher level, i.e. people still being caught for stimulants they shouldn't be - testosterone creams (assuming Nike Oregon project is clean...)

Professional Football / Rugby / NFL / AFL / Boxing.....there is just so much more money there it makes it virtually impossible to think that they are clean IMO.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: AZOffaly on October 02, 2019, 10:03:36 AM
NFL is absolutely not clean. No doubt at all. At any one time several lads would be serving games suspensions for PEDs.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 02, 2019, 10:33:24 AM
There would be a lot of speculation rugby is rife with it too.

I think athletics has more stringent testing - reading various things over the years I think methods can be advanced enough.

Athletics lends itself more to improvement from performance enhancing drugs than other sports. Whether that means it is any more rife I don't know. I doubt we will ever know to be honest.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Capt Pat on October 02, 2019, 11:56:03 PM
Nobody ever gets caught for PEDs in the premier league. All that money and nobody is cheating. I for one don't beleive it.

Russia was banned from the olympics for being cheats yet they were out performed at the 2012 olympics by the uk 29 gold medals to 19. Surely if they had a successful state sponsored ped programme they would have been out performing the UK not the other way round. It doesn't make sense. In 1996 the UK got one gold medal. That is some turn around from one to nearly 30 in 16 years.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 03, 2019, 10:24:47 AM
The Russia banning thing to me stinks. It is a political thing by Coe. Ethiopia or China have grounds for banning too if Russia have.

The uk teams to me stink. Salazar in the athletics, cyclists like wiggins with big question mark. Cult figures like farah and Radcliffe up to their neck in it and even the likes of cram coming across like an apologist.

I saw a good interview with Jenny Simpson. She raised the point of why any clean athlete would associate with Salazar knowing what everyone knows. So she basically trusts none of them. I would agree. Hassan has to have massive question marks over her now.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: GetOverTheBar on October 03, 2019, 10:52:32 AM
Quote from: Capt Pat on October 02, 2019, 11:56:03 PM
Nobody ever gets caught for PEDs in the premier league. All that money and nobody is cheating. I for one don't beleive it.

Russia was banned from the olympics for being cheats yet they were out performed at the 2012 olympics by the uk 29 gold medals to 19. Surely if they had a successful state sponsored ped programme they would have been out performing the UK not the other way round. It doesn't make sense. In 1996 the UK got one gold medal. That is some turn around from one to nearly 30 in 16 years.

Think you would have to be highly naive to suspect professional football is clean, as you say there is just too much money involved. The substances they are likely on, to the layman probably 'don't exist'. Your kinda hoping your team isn't involved when the deck of cards comes crumbling down.

Barcelona were long linked with the now disgraced Dr Fuentes in Spain during their golden era, there was talk the Barca / Real teams blood samples etc were in that evidence. A judge I believe ordered them destroyed as doping wasn't against the law in Spain at the time. Open to correction here but I think that recently some athletes from this same batches of blood have been identified but they are not allowed to be named.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: bigarsedkeeper on October 03, 2019, 11:15:49 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 02, 2019, 10:33:24 AM
There would be a lot of speculation rugby is rife with it too.

I think athletics has more stringent testing - reading various things over the years I think methods can be advanced enough.

Athletics lends itself more to improvement from performance enhancing drugs than other sports. Whether that means it is any more rife I don't know. I doubt we will ever know to be honest.

Apparently they don't test for Human Growth Hormone in rugby, not sure about football. I heard directly from a former rugby player that using HGH is big in rugby. Helps massively with recovery from injuries. Also gives you huge abdominal muscles and an oval belly button because of where they inject it. Have a look at the South Africa team before they left for the world cup. Of course some of those guys are just specimens and have great genes and haven't done anything wrong
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 03, 2019, 11:22:19 AM
I remember the documentary on the 88 100 metre final where they had nearly on been on hgh where it was a known side effect that people on it would need braces and nearly everyone from the race was interviewed and had braces lol.

Didn't know that about rugby.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: GetOverTheBar on October 03, 2019, 11:48:18 AM
Quote from: bigarsedkeeper on October 03, 2019, 11:15:49 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 02, 2019, 10:33:24 AM
There would be a lot of speculation rugby is rife with it too.

I think athletics has more stringent testing - reading various things over the years I think methods can be advanced enough.

Athletics lends itself more to improvement from performance enhancing drugs than other sports. Whether that means it is any more rife I don't know. I doubt we will ever know to be honest.

Apparently they don't test for Human Growth Hormone in rugby, not sure about football. I heard directly from a former rugby player that using HGH is big in rugby. Helps massively with recovery from injuries. Also gives you huge abdominal muscles and an oval belly button because of where they inject it. Have a look at the South Africa team before they left for the world cup. Of course some of those guys are just specimens and have great genes and haven't done anything wrong

HGH occurs naturally in the body, as a result its hard to say what is natural in someone or not. The biological passports that they have in athletics would go someway to sorting that....but I don't think there is a hunger for it in rugby.....probably for good reason. HGH is also quite pesky in so much that it leaves the body fairly quickly after injection.

The huge abdominal muscles etc....by product of training, these lads are animals as it is. Oval belly button....myth.

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 04, 2019, 04:33:40 PM
 https://road.cc/content/news/267201-paula-radcliffe-female-version-lance-armstrong-his-nemesis-betsy-andreu-thinks (https://road.cc/content/news/267201-paula-radcliffe-female-version-lance-armstrong-his-nemesis-betsy-andreu-thinks)

Things are heating up with Radcliffe.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: gallsman on October 04, 2019, 06:57:16 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 02, 2019, 08:31:07 AM
Serious questions about her now.

Now?!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 04, 2019, 07:31:23 PM
Lol. Well people who didn't doubt her are really beginning to question her. There have always been questions obviously....
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: gallsman on October 04, 2019, 07:41:43 PM
Speaking of questions being asked, there was an "interesting" performance by the "Bahraini" Salwa Eid Naser to win the women's 400m last night in the third fastest time of all time.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 04, 2019, 07:47:07 PM
I didn't see it but heard a pb by 0.94 of a second?

Dina Asher-Smith won the 200 by over a third of a second which is unheard of though to be fair about 3 or 4 big players did seem to drop out.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: gallsman on October 04, 2019, 09:37:10 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 04, 2019, 07:47:07 PM
I didn't see it but heard a pb by 0.94 of a second?

Dina Asher-Smith won the 200 by over a third of a second which is unheard of though to be fair about 3 or 4 big players did seem to drop out.

There was nobody left to touch her, all gone through injury, fatigue or scheduling difficulties.

In the 400m, Miller-Uibo's excision at the end said everything. Ran a personal best of 48.37 and lost by two tenths. Only Kratochvilova and Koch have run faster than Naser last night.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on October 04, 2019, 10:12:46 PM
Theres 2 names from the past! Both drugs cheats i presume?

First one had hairy armpits, second one wasnt bad looking? Or is my mind playing tricks 😉😃
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Capt Pat on October 05, 2019, 07:16:34 PM
Hassan of the netherlands just completed the 10000 1500 metre double. Her coach Salazar must be delighted with the completely unnatural double of 10000 and 1500. Some people have no shame.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: screenexile on October 05, 2019, 07:42:48 PM
Quote from: Capt Pat on October 05, 2019, 07:16:34 PM
Hassan of the netherlands just completed the 10000 1500 metre double. Her coach Salazar must be delighted with the completely unnatural double of 10000 and 1500. Some people have no shame.

Horrible I used to watch athletics all the time but what's the point now?

Mageean seems like a decent sort so watched her she ran well with a pb but she's bound to be wondering what's the point!!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 05, 2019, 08:53:52 PM
If dibaba was running it could have been the battle of the juicers! (Allegedly).

Great run from Mageean again. Hopefully she will get a clear run of injuries for the olympics and get better again. Sub 4 hopefully coming. There wouldn't be too long a list of men in Ireland who can do that never mind women.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: 6th sam on October 05, 2019, 09:40:41 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 05, 2019, 08:53:52 PM
If dibaba was running it could have been the battle of the juicers! (Allegedly).

Great run from Mageean again. Hopefully she will get a clear run of injuries for the olympics and get better again. Sub 4 hopefully coming. There wouldn't be too long a list of men in Ireland who can do that never mind women.

Brilliant performance to hit a pb in a world final.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: johnnycool on October 07, 2019, 12:42:05 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on October 02, 2019, 09:22:13 AM
I can't stand him but yeah she really has let herself down. Sounds like don't bite the hand that feeds you and the questionable morals now would make you question what morals she had when she broke those world records!
That was one strange interview Radcliffe did on the BBC. I'd need to watch it again as I got the impression she was saying that Salazar was only cheating a small bit, but look over there, those ones are cheating a lot.

And its OK, no athletes were sanctioned.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: imtommygunn on October 07, 2019, 02:34:28 PM
She exposed what she really thinks and now lots that didn't think she was doping(many did too) now think she was doping.

If you're going down the road of infusions, making up thyroid problems asthma etc etc then what is the point. I don't see it.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: Never beat the deeler on October 14, 2019, 02:05:38 AM
So apparently Sir Mo thinks that people are questioning whether he doped because they are racist, not because his former coach was convicted of doping violations.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2019/oct/12/bullish-mo-farah-hits-out-at-media-agenda-video (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2019/oct/12/bullish-mo-farah-hits-out-at-media-agenda-video)

Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: screenexile on October 14, 2019, 11:13:37 AM
Quote from: Never beat the deeler on October 14, 2019, 02:05:38 AM
So apparently Sir Mo thinks that people are questioning whether he doped because they are racist, not because his former coach was convicted of doping violations.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2019/oct/12/bullish-mo-farah-hits-out-at-media-agenda-video (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2019/oct/12/bullish-mo-farah-hits-out-at-media-agenda-video)

Does he not have a publicist or someone to give him advice about dealing with the media??

Literally the worst possible thing he could say in this situation and patently untrue it makes him look even more guilty!!
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: GetOverTheBar on October 14, 2019, 12:09:00 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 14, 2019, 11:13:37 AM
Quote from: Never beat the deeler on October 14, 2019, 02:05:38 AM
So apparently Sir Mo thinks that people are questioning whether he doped because they are racist, not because his former coach was convicted of doping violations.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2019/oct/12/bullish-mo-farah-hits-out-at-media-agenda-video (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2019/oct/12/bullish-mo-farah-hits-out-at-media-agenda-video)

Does he not have a publicist or someone to give him advice about dealing with the media??

Literally the worst possible thing he could say in this situation and patently untrue it makes him look even more guilty!!

Disaster for Farah....to me he's basically sank himself here.
Title: Re: Doping - don't trust anybody
Post by: screenexile on June 24, 2021, 05:00:27 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/sha-carri-richardson-s-image-sullied-by-doping-shadow-of-dennis-mitchell-1.4601242

Like Dave Hannigan's articles he's definitely hit the nail on the head here she can't be associated with these lads if she doesn't want questions to be asked of her!