Why Ireland s will have to be united economically ?

[brokencrossbar1]

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that Trevor, cameron still does not instill much confidence in middle England.  Brown may just scrap it, though it will be his last moment as leader as he is on the way out no matter what happens. It's amazing how Bertie and Tony got out just at the right time, lucky or political masters?

[Trevor Hill]

Bit of both really, the writing was on the wall for a long time regarding the economy, we had it too good for too long. Its time for a regime change in the UK, New Labia have had their time, the Tories will get in and middle England will bleat and tell everyone how much better things are now than under Tory Blair, they will win another election 4 years down the line, win another 4 or 5 years later by a greatly reduced margin and then time for the other side to get in at the next.
Labour are leaderless at the minute, Brown doesnt have a clue, a bit like Cowen really, but probably more unpopular. Neither are born leaders, whereas their predecessors were. Bertie was a chancer, but sure we all loved the oul rogue.

[magickingdom]

All in all - romantic as it may look to most nationalists, would they really give up all their freebees from the english and pay their own way?

Well if they wouldn't they're not nationalists.

I'd say if you asked most of them to choose - they'd keep the status quo - money speaks all languages! And you'd have to agree with them - eg to road tax a car in ROI is €560. Equvalent car in the north under the english system is £135 stg! Cars cheaper to buy. VAT rate is 3.5% less than the Irish rate. Stamp duty rates much lower. Price of drink in pubs and hotels is much less in the 6 counties. It goes on and on!

So? I'm a northern nationalist I'd vote for a United Ireland no matter how out of pocket I'd be.

so would i pints, anyway over time things would even out and the 2 systems would blend. anyone hear of east germany lately?

[Orior]

Exactly armaghniac.  I had this discussion in work the other day.  A lad was complaining because his bin charges for the year had gone up to 390 euros.  I explained to him that when I lived in Belfast my rates for the year were £1750.  He couldn't believe it.  Also when we first moved down I got car insurance quotes for north and south.  The quote in the north was around £700 whereas the insurance down here was 380 euros!!!  You can compare all you like,but take it from me we have a better standard of living in Cork than we ad in Belfast.  An example of how there isn't a whole pile of difference, we would go out to a local place for food.  Your average steak meal with dessert and bottle of wine for me and Mrs BC would cost around 85 euros.  Nothing too fancy mind you, just nice and tasty.  We went to a similar style place in Cushendall the last time we were up.  We got the exact same type of meal and had no change out of £60.  Do the maths and you will see that there is little difference. 

It will happen in the next 5 years, but a closer link to Europe will be how it happens.  That will only happen though if the Tories do not win the election. That may just be the case.

Tut tut brokencrossbar  You know how those owc people dont like facts that challenge their thinking.

[ONeill]

The Tories are almost guaranteed to win the next election.  Gordon Clown has seen to that.

Wouldn't agree. This economic uncertainty is a godsend for Brown.

[armaghniac]

so would i pints, anyway over time things would even out and the 2 systems would blend. anyone hear of east germany lately?

East Germany is not that relevant, the communist economic system was totally different and closed off from the West. The general conduct of the economy in Ireland, North and South, is pretty similar apart from things related to taxes and governments. Things change, when I was a student everyone thought people in the North had it easy because they didn't have to pay for university, in recent years it has been the other way around. These arrangements can change in fa fairly short space of time.

Also East Germany collapsed suddenly and the transitional arrangements were not always good ones for long term convergence. The two parts of Ireland will have a much longer courtship.

[Maguire01]

An example of how there isn't a whole pile of difference, we would go out to a local place for food.  Your average steak meal with dessert and bottle of wine for me and Mrs BC would cost around 85 euros.  Nothing too fancy mind you, just nice and tasty.  We went to a similar style place in Cushendall the last time we were up.  We got the exact same type of meal and had no change out of £60.  Do the maths and you will see that there is little difference. 

Eating out probably isn't the most relevant benchmark as it would be such a small proportion of your expenditure (for most people). It's petrol prices, utility bills, taxes, car prices, property prices, visits to the doctor, medicines etc that are the big differences.

But as for food, i generally find it more expensive to eat out in the south. You'be probably be better to compare eateries in the city as such places are often more expensive in the county (e.g. Cushendall).

[Maguire01]

The downsides:
The cost of integrating services would be huge.
The education system would need to be overhauled.
Unionists could hold the balance of power in any new parliament with about 20% of the vote and may disrupt changes.
Also the North's unproductive economy would be exposed - the lack of innovation and entrepreneurship, the dependency on handouts, a less rounded education system that you receive from Britain.
There could also be a brain drain if there is a large departure of Unionists from top civil service positions or other key knowledge holding posts.

The benefits:
Tourism would eventually improve
Marketing the island abroad as a place to do business would be easier
Tax evasion and smuggling would cease and increase government revenue

A clean out of civil service posts wouldn't necessarily be a negative. Plus, there'd be no need for duplication of departments, so there'd only be one Finance ministry etc - the loss of a few senior positions mightn't be that big of a problem.

[Pangurban]

There is no economic argument for a United Ireland, nor should there be, particularly within the context of the European Community. If economic factors are to be used as a justification for sovereignty or non-sovereignty, then we should accept absorption into the wealthiest state willing to have us. The idea of doing so seems preposterous, given our history, but i would not bet against the willingness of the citizens of the failing Celtic Tiger to consider it.

[brokencrossbar1]

An example of how there isn't a whole pile of difference, we would go out to a local place for food.  Your average steak meal with dessert and bottle of wine for me and Mrs BC would cost around 85 euros.  Nothing too fancy mind you, just nice and tasty.  We went to a similar style place in Cushendall the last time we were up.  We got the exact same type of meal and had no change out of £60.  Do the maths and you will see that there is little difference. 

Eating out probably isn't the most relevant benchmark as it would be such a small proportion of your expenditure (for most people). It's petrol prices, utility bills, taxes, car prices, property prices, visits to the doctor, medicines etc that are the big differences.

But as for food, i generally find it more expensive to eat out in the south. You'be probably be better to compare eateries in the city as such places are often more expensive in the county (e.g. Cushendall).

I simply used it as an example as it is always one that is trotted out to me how expensive it is to eat out.  And for what it is worth I am comparing proces in Kinsale, the gourmet capital of Ireland(apparently) to Cushendall, which is not!  As for the rest of the points you make, petrol is cheaper in the south, despite what people suggest we actuallt pay less on oour phone and electricity tan my sister would in the north for a similar sized house, taxes are much of a muchness and you do not get the same benefit in the north as a PAYE employee for tax back on GP visits, Bin charges etc, car prices I give you that one, but it is easy enough to import and still save money(particularly with the current strenght of the euro against the STG) property prices are higher but that is readjsuting at an alarming rate where we are, and I presume elsewhere.  I agree that the visits to the doctor etc can be a big hit, but they are also  not everyday costs.  The simple fact is though that wages are markedly higher and the standard of living is better for us.  For consummables like groceries it is more expensive but not back breakingly so.  Things like Santa shopping will be done in the North, but sure it isn't that far away no matter where you live.

Panguar, the economic reason has to be the main reason as it is the only way that unionists will acede to it without a major fight.  It will be within the context of a "European" solution but I firmly believe it is closer than many people expect.

[Trevor Hill]

The Tories are almost guaranteed to win the next election.  Gordon Clown has seen to that.

Wouldn't agree. This economic uncertainty is a godsend for Brown.

Middle England sees this as being mainly New Labours fault, they have spent way too much over the last 10 years in order to win votes and now the kitty is empty. Many people are in debt and its easier to blame the Government than to blame themselves. People were encouraged to get on the housing ladder, now many of those properties are almost worthless. Brown is seen as a clown in England and the Scottish electorate dont support him at an upcoming by election he will have nowhere else to hide. This is the man who sold of the UK gold reserves thinking that the price of gold would plummet. That same gold is now worth 500% more. The next election will be similar to when New Labour came to power in 1997, only this time none of us will be singing things can only get better.

[Maguire01]

With an 8c increase in petrol prices in RoI from tomorrow, how much cheaper will petrol be than in NI?

[under the bar]

There could also be a brain drain if there is a large departure of Unionists

A paradox if ever I read one. 

[Hardy]

The thread has addressed only the economic argument so far, with the exception of one or two declarations in favour of unity whatever the economic cost. Whether their arguments are right or wrong, the majority seem to consider that the economic outcome would be negative. I'd be interested to hear an airing of the present-day case for a united Ireland beyond the economic considerations., especially from those who are for it at any price.

[Gnevin]

The thread has addressed only the economic argument so far, with the exception of one or two declarations in favour of unity whatever the economic cost. Whether their arguments are right or wrong, the majority seem to consider that the economic outcome would be negative. I'd be interested to hear an airing of the present-day case for a united Ireland beyond the economic considerations., especially from those who are for it at any price.

Well its is an economic thread , i'd suggest starting a new thread .