Martin Mc Guinness Passes Away at 66

[seafoid]

If you go back to the 70s the Northern Ireland Act that ended Stormont envisaged a role for the South and the Unionists killed it. In the 80s Thatcher was ultra reactionary compared to British policy which had been more open to the idea of a Southern input.

[currychip]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

[Il Bomber Destro]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

[heganboy]

Do the people in the North really believe that the South ever had the military capacity to enter and take over the six counties? It would have led to two events. 1. The British would have come back and whipped the souths arse 2. The loyalists would have reacted with a fetocity that would have led to civil war. The facts are that up to joining the EEC Ireland was a economically backward country entirely dependant on the British market. We could hardly feed ourselves and certainly could not finance a military operation aimed at taking over the six counties and holding a million unionists against their will.

Tell me more of these million unionists, and maybe mathematics or just counting. Counting would do it...

[michaelg]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

[Il Bomber Destro]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Of course it was war, the Provos were an outlawed organisation, they did not have any powers to make arrests or put someone through the courts. The British enacted a shoot to kill policy on IRA volunteers and then lied about it.

[seafoid]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

England is more tolerant than  settler colonial outfits in which one group is dominant and wants to hang on to that dominance by denying rights to other groups.There are 5 million people in prison in the US and the % imprisoned is highest in the black community. The US has a looming crisis over the rise in the Latino population and how whites feel about that.   NI would be more comparable to the US and Israel/Palestine .

NI is special because of its history as a colony
http://virtualmethodist.blogspot.ch/2009/09/coasters.html

[Gaffer]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Of course it was war, the Provos were an outlawed organisation, they did not have any powers to make arrests or put someone through the courts. The British enacted a shoot to kill policy on IRA volunteers and then lied about it.

Did the Provos tell any lies do you think?

[StGallsGAA]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Or type it either it seems....

[lynchbhoy]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

You obv have a different perspective but round our way the republican militants did more to save and protect than the ruc did.... though that wasn't hard

not ideal but they did what was required. casualties of war were part and parcel of it as well as policing anti social elements within nationalist areas... plus the crown forces and loyalist persecution forces alliance.

absolutely form the republicans military actions the GFA was achieved.  nothing surer.

[lynchbhoy]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

not liked but accepted round our way

war is war

it was a dirty war started off since plantation...

but war is never clean.

thankfully it's in past history now.

[Il Bomber Destro]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Of course it was war, the Provos were an outlawed organisation, they did not have any powers to make arrests or put someone through the courts. The British enacted a shoot to kill policy on IRA volunteers and then lied about it.

Did the Provos tell any lies do you think?

I'm sure they did but they were an outlawed organisation by the state.

The governors of the state meanwhile had no problem disregarding the justice system it had in place to deal with the Provos and exercised shoot to kill operations and then lied to the public and covered it up.

It was a war.

What did you think of Mandela?

[Applesisapples]

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/martin-mcguinness-record-in-executive-cant-exorcise-the-ghosts-of-the-past-35321466.html

Great article that accurately outlines how McGuiness is and will be viewed outside hard nationalist circles (and SF AGMs, I guess) in the six counties.

The rush to lionise the nationalist answer to Ian Paisley here just because he's gone shows a serious lack of perspective. Like Paisley, he took the north deeper down the rabbit hole. Everyone would have been better off without both.

I can only surmise that those on here who are being disingenuous with their views on McGuinness, fall into two categories, they either are 40 and under in age or live in the south. Anyone of my generation and older will only too readily remember what it was like growing up in the Protestant state. I could what about all day on nationalist grievances, my experience in work and on the streets and the actions of our fellow countrymen. But I won't. Martin McGuinness got embroiled in the troubles and the IRA because of his experiences. The history is there go read it. In fact those of you who want to objectively view the northern state and the cause of the troubles should go read Bonfires on the Hillsides by James Kelly. The best history of the North to be written. I personally could never pick up arms, but many like McGuinness did so out of frustration and a sense injustice. Am I condoning the atrocities ... absolutely not, but they need to be viewed in context. The SDLP and John Hume great man as he is could not have delivered the GFA or the peace process with out the IRA's actions, Unionists simply would not have moved, if you believe otherwise then you are a fool. There was much done on both sides and we thankfully have moved beyond that. You don't have to like Martin mcGuinness to acknowledge his contribution in delivering the North to where we are now. He has continuously stretched himself and nationalism in attempts to reach accommodation with political unionism only to be thwarted by intransigence. Unlike some he has never denied his past or sought to hide behind red hats or shotgun licences.

A very constructive post that shows an understanding of the Northern situation.
On the other hand we have syferus being as articulate as Jolene Bunting.

Great post Applesisapples.

I think that most under the age of 40 (or certainly 30) would lean towards SF, especially in the north.

That may be so but I am alluding to a lack of personal experience of the north in the 60's and 70's. My Dad god rest him related stories of how neighbours who were B Specials took great delight in abusing their powers as an auxiliary police force, neighbours mind you not strangers. Every July a home up until the late early '80's the OO transported their lambegs 3 miles from the hall to bate them outside the chapel. Times have changed but the trouble can't be viewed in isolation or from the comfort of todays catholic middle class. Those from the south quick with the condemnation easily forget the blood on the hands of many of the founding fathers of the southern state.I have also stopped short of accusing our southern fellow countrymen of abandoning us, as I don't think they had much option. But I do believe their is a suppressed guilt in the southern mindset that they did so and are some how responsible for the trouble, hence the fervour to heap it all (blame) onto SF and the IRA.

Balderpoppytwaddle

As opposed to the shite you are responsible for...twat.

[seafoid]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

Of course it was war, the Provos were an outlawed organisation, they did not have any powers to make arrests or put someone through the courts. The British enacted a shoot to kill policy on IRA volunteers and then lied about it.

Did the Provos tell any lies do you think?

I'm sure they did but they were an outlawed organisation by the state.

The governors of the state meanwhile had no problem disregarding the justice system it had in place to deal with the Provos and exercised shoot to kill operations and then lied to the public and covered it up.

It was a war.

What did you think of Mandela?

War has many losers . The kids of prisoners, the wives of the dead soldiers, the Dolours Prices

[haveaharp]

In this thread I am afraid there is a lot of revisionism about what the IRA did in the North.  It certainly was a cold place for catholics, GAA supporters and anyone who expressed an Irish identity.  But the idea that the IRA were some great saviours is nonsense.   They killed a lot of those that they purported to be fighting for.  Bombed the crap out of Derry and many other places.  Undertook many actions that were cruel,cowardly and brutal.  Someone said that the GFA wouldn't have happened without them.  Neither you nor I know that, but if you want to say that the IRA gained the GFA I would have to question if the GFA was worth all the deaths they caused.  Certainly the Irish community have most rights that we are entitled to, but we don't know if that would not have happened anyway.  Non-whites in England and USA have gained a fair deal of equality without going through what we did.

Martin Mc Guinness has been a powerful and necessary leader in recent years and has stretched himself for reconciliation.  He deserves recognition for that.

War blurs lines.

There were plenty of innocents killed by the IRA during the War of Independence. There were Protestants massacred and burned out of their homes in Cork, there were informants who met their grizzly end etc etc. Not to even mention some of the acts during the Civil War. These are rarely talked about, lads being strapped to a land mine and blown to bits down in Ballyseedy is rarely mentioned by the two establishment parties in the Free State government, nor is the assassination of government ministers.

Sadly that's a consequence of any conflict. They were scary times and a lot of men and women end up doing extraordinary things they would not have done in orindary circumstances. Picture being a young lad from the Creggan who would have grown up during the Battle of the Bogside and Bloody Sunday, it's bound to skew your judgements and moral conscience of what needs to be and how it can be achieved.

Was it a war or not?  If so, why do Republlicans complain about incidents such as Loghgall were aggression was met with aggression.  You can't have your cake and eat it.

not liked but accepted round our way

war is war

it was a dirty war started off since plantation...

but war is never clean.

thankfully it's in past history now.

If it was war then the hunger strikers should have been given POW status, in the can't have your cake and eat it sense.