Who’s Been Cancelled??

[LeoMc]

Is there a statute of limitations on this?
The Pyramids were built by slave owners.

No they weren't

The Egyptians didn't have slaves?

At some points in the empire, they did. But not when the pyramids were built.

Does it matter in the context of this discussion?

No one is naming schools after Khufu or building statues to Ramses II or using flags or symbols from Ancient Egypt to make political points or intimidate.

Maybe someday our civilization will fall, a new one will rise, and ancient artifacts from our time will be looked on as archaeological curiosities rather than poisonous, still relevant, symbols from recent history.

Is anyone using Mitchell or Wayne to make political points or to intimidate?

I am trying to figure out when something becomes a curiosity of history that we can look back on.

If I was a black person flying into John Wayne airport or lived in that town and was aware of his statements, I might have some questions as to why he continues to be honoured.

As for your second question, you think a vanished civilization that built pyramids 5000 years ago is as relevant to society today as the enslavement and discrimination of black Americans?

If I was a black person flying into John Wayne airport I might think he was an old racist, but I might not be that bothered as he was representative of his time. I might know he was not being celebrated because of his views but because of his acting career. I might think the call out culture was not real activisim, it was a way of people feeling righteous and good about themselves without doing anything real and I might know that not everyone was pure or perfect, that everyone has flaws, that ideas and opinions evolved and not everything looks great through the microscope of history but that we cannot whitewash history to our current norms.

I agree that it some cases it is lazy activism. However, many of these statues and names and so on have been the subject of ongoing efforts for years. Just because all of a sudden there is a groundswell of awareness in the wake of George Floyd doesn't make it an invalid concern. Sometimes it takes single, large events to shift public opinion and change society for the better. Do you think Mississippi changing its flag was the correct thing to do, or should they have tried to hold on yet again and continued to honour the confederacy?

And how is making such changes "whitewashing" history? No one is going to forget the US Civil War or the worldwide slave trade or the fact that racism was and is a problem for black people. There are no statues to Hitler or use of the Nazi swastika except maybe in a few bigoted, white supremacist clubs, but no one is forgetting or diluting what he and his henchmen inflicted on the world.

Mississippi changing the flag is the right thing to do. The confederate flag is A symbol of that time and is still used as a symbol of division. I wouldn't cancel Dukes of Hazard because they had it in the roof of the General Lee.
Confederate Generals, Rhodes, Coulson I am in 2 minds about.

There is an expression don't seek to offend, don't seek to be offended.

By whitewashing I am referring to the removal of anyone and anything that does not meet today's standards.

A few years ago Edinburgh considered putting up a statue of JK Rowling. If it had went up would her stance on Trans issues justify its removal?
The statue would not have been to celebrate her views.
The statue of Joe Dolan in Mullingar was not erected because he performed in South Africa during apartheid.

[J70]

Is there a statute of limitations on this?
The Pyramids were built by slave owners.

No they weren't

The Egyptians didn't have slaves?

At some points in the empire, they did. But not when the pyramids were built.

Does it matter in the context of this discussion?

No one is naming schools after Khufu or building statues to Ramses II or using flags or symbols from Ancient Egypt to make political points or intimidate.

Maybe someday our civilization will fall, a new one will rise, and ancient artifacts from our time will be looked on as archaeological curiosities rather than poisonous, still relevant, symbols from recent history.

Is anyone using Mitchell or Wayne to make political points or to intimidate?

I am trying to figure out when something becomes a curiosity of history that we can look back on.

If I was a black person flying into John Wayne airport or lived in that town and was aware of his statements, I might have some questions as to why he continues to be honoured.

As for your second question, you think a vanished civilization that built pyramids 5000 years ago is as relevant to society today as the enslavement and discrimination of black Americans?

If I was a black person flying into John Wayne airport I might think he was an old racist, but I might not be that bothered as he was representative of his time. I might know he was not being celebrated because of his views but because of his acting career. I might think the call out culture was not real activisim, it was a way of people feeling righteous and good about themselves without doing anything real and I might know that not everyone was pure or perfect, that everyone has flaws, that ideas and opinions evolved and not everything looks great through the microscope of history but that we cannot whitewash history to our current norms.

I agree that it some cases it is lazy activism. However, many of these statues and names and so on have been the subject of ongoing efforts for years. Just because all of a sudden there is a groundswell of awareness in the wake of George Floyd doesn't make it an invalid concern. Sometimes it takes single, large events to shift public opinion and change society for the better. Do you think Mississippi changing its flag was the correct thing to do, or should they have tried to hold on yet again and continued to honour the confederacy?

And how is making such changes "whitewashing" history? No one is going to forget the US Civil War or the worldwide slave trade or the fact that racism was and is a problem for black people. There are no statues to Hitler or use of the Nazi swastika except maybe in a few bigoted, white supremacist clubs, but no one is forgetting or diluting what he and his henchmen inflicted on the world.

Mississippi changing the flag is the right thing to do. The confederate flag is A symbol of that time and is still used as a symbol of division. I wouldn't cancel Dukes of Hazard because they had it in the roof of the General Lee.
Confederate Generals, Rhodes, Coulson I am in 2 minds about.

There is an expression don't seek to offend, don't seek to be offended.

By whitewashing I am referring to the removal of anyone and anything that does not meet today's standards.

A few years ago Edinburgh considered putting up a statue of JK Rowling. If it had went up would her stance on Trans issues justify its removal?
The statue would not have been to celebrate her views.
The statue of Joe Dolan in Mullingar was not erected because he performed in South Africa during apartheid.

I accept that. This is not, in many cases, an easy, right/wrong issue.

[BennyCake]

Why was Luke Kelly's statue attacked recently?

[TabClear]

Edit: Apologies in advance J70/Leo if I have messed up the quotes below. I was trying to cut down the text!

This is an important point from my perspective. As has been pointed out there are lots of things in society  that look pretty poor now because attitudes and society has changed. Thats not to say that it should have been accepted in the past but banning episodes of Only fools and horses or Fawlty towers is not doing much to address the true issues today. If anything I think they detract from it because a) it distracts attention from the true issues b) it tends to get an abnormal amount of media attention, particularly in the red tops because it is about a celebrity/favourite character etc and it is divisive which sells papers and c), and in my opinion most importantly, it  puts the more moderate, balanced individual off supporting more meaningful action because they dont want to be associated with some raving looney on social media who is burning effigies of Basil Fawlty in one post while the next post is calling for a valid legislative or social change.

I know the examples above are slightly tongue in cheek but I am firmly of the view that many of these movements be it feminism, anti racism, LBGT etc are hurt by their most ardent supporters purely because they refuse to see anything other than injustice wherever possible (i.e. seek to be offended) and like nothing better than a social media crusade or witchhunt. One that sticks in my head last year (due to the amount of said books in my kids bedrooms!) was when the Mr Men and Little MIss books were accused of sexism by some clown who decided to take offense at a one line joke in one book because a female character was deemed to be the butt of teh joke. Jesus wept!

Mississippi changing the flag is the right thing to do. The confederate flag is A symbol of that time and is still used as a symbol of division. I wouldn't cancel Dukes of Hazard because they had it in the roof of the General Lee.
Confederate Generals, Rhodes, Coulson I am in 2 minds about.

There is an expression don't seek to offend, don't seek to be offended.

By whitewashing I am referring to the removal of anyone and anything that does not meet today's standards.

A few years ago Edinburgh considered putting up a statue of JK Rowling. If it had went up would her stance on Trans issues justify its removal?
The statue would not have been to celebrate her views.
The statue of Joe Dolan in Mullingar was not erected because he performed in South Africa during apartheid.

I accept that. This is not, in many cases, an easy, right/wrong issue.

[ONeill]

I don't like the look of those tin men up in Strabane.

[LeoMc]

I don't like the look of those tin men up in Strabane.

[Tony Baloney]

David Starkey.

[Tony Baloney]

Dave Portnoy.

[Gmac]

Christopher Columbus statues coming down all over USA and Columbus Ohio talking about a name change, pure madness

[Milltown Row2]

Had to google the last one, net worth £450 million, he'll not give a hoot

But Starkey? WTF?

Now Columbus! Worlds gone crazy

[quit yo jibbajabba]

Ewan MacKenna

(cant find his thread was it deleted)?

[sid waddell]

Manchester City's fifth goal.

[BennyCake]

Christopher Columbus statues coming down all over USA and Columbus Ohio talking about a name change, pure madness

That is mad

So will CC be erased from history? Who will they say discovered America now?

[Milltown Row2]

Christopher Columbus statues coming down all over USA and Columbus Ohio talking about a name change, pure madness

That is mad

So will CC be erased from history? Who will they say discovered America now?

The Vikings ?

[quit yo jibbajabba]

Washington Redskins under p too