A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[smelmoth]

On the whole 50+1 thing, unionists are simply going to have to like it or lump it. The thing is, things will never be as bad for them in a United Ireland as they were for nationalists in the northern state and therefore scaremongering of violence is pointless. Unionists will be welcomed into a United Ireland. Likewise anyone who wishes is welcome to move to Britain.

Going to have to lump it?
Anyone who wishes is welcome to move to Britain

The very definition of welcome. Does this fit with SF's shared space or shared future or is it completely at odds with political nationalism and political republicanism?
How will it work with continuing power sharing in NI within a united ireland?

[smelmoth]

Trailer, a 50+1 vote is all you're going to get, if you're lucky. 1 million or so unionists aren't going to come quietly.

There will always be the died in the wool types on both sides, but the onus in a UI is to keep this group as small a minority group as possible on the PUL side.

Good luck with that.

The only way there'll be a UI, is to get your 50+1. But hang on tight for another few decades, while the troubles return with a vengeance. That'll be the price of a UI.

So you say. But you haven't even tried.

If you can't get unionists on board with an ILA, are they seriously going to consider the possibilities of even discussing a UI?

All unionists are against everything and therefore we must not try. Is this your position?

Try, by all means.

But history shows that when unionism is threatened it comes out biting. Ulster covenant, civil rights marches, workers strikes, Anglo Irish agreement, fallout from Drumcree parades, fleg protests. Unionists won't even discuss how a UI might work, as that will already show that they have moved one inch from their "never never never" position.

Show me where nationalism or republicanism have discussed how a UI might work?

[smelmoth]

We need to get to a place where united Ireland vs the Union is not green vs orange ... for those who promote a UI, they need to show why it is better both culturally and economically.  Likewise, those who promote the status quo of the union, need to explain in great detail as to why the union is better.  Let's have that big discussion and see where it goes, it may take the next 10+ years to have it, but let's have it.  Just demanding one or the other blindly does not suffice.

IMO NI is a failed entity, Unionists have failed NI, partition has failed this whole island.  But my opinion is worth nothing unless I back it up with hard facts.  My unionist colleagues in work have no argument to the economic fact that NI is a public sector dependent basket case.  Where's Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Intel, IBM, HP etc etc based in the north?  Nowhere is the answer.

Successive British governments and their policies here have helped make the north a basket case. That's why there's no sign of google or Apple up here.

Are google and Apple in RoI because they are successful economies or because they are tax rate whores? If uk lowered corporate tax or allowed a lower rate in NI would NI compete with RoI for these mobile firms?

[weareros]

We need to get to a place where united Ireland vs the Union is not green vs orange ... for those who promote a UI, they need to show why it is better both culturally and economically.  Likewise, those who promote the status quo of the union, need to explain in great detail as to why the union is better.  Let's have that big discussion and see where it goes, it may take the next 10+ years to have it, but let's have it.  Just demanding one or the other blindly does not suffice.

IMO NI is a failed entity, Unionists have failed NI, partition has failed this whole island.  But my opinion is worth nothing unless I back it up with hard facts.  My unionist colleagues in work have no argument to the economic fact that NI is a public sector dependent basket case.  Where's Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Intel, IBM, HP etc etc based in the north?  Nowhere is the answer.

Successive British governments and their policies here have helped make the north a basket case. That's why there's no sign of google or Apple up here.

Are google and Apple in RoI because they are successful economies or because they are tax rate whores? If uk lowered corporate tax or allowed a lower rate in NI would NI compete with RoI for these mobile firms?

Would Alabama be able to compete with California? As well as looking to make filthy profits, these companies are also eager to attract a talented workforce, so lifestyle and other factors are important too.

[BennyCake]

Trailer, a 50+1 vote is all you're going to get, if you're lucky. 1 million or so unionists aren't going to come quietly.

There will always be the died in the wool types on both sides, but the onus in a UI is to keep this group as small a minority group as possible on the PUL side.

Good luck with that.

The only way there'll be a UI, is to get your 50+1. But hang on tight for another few decades, while the troubles return with a vengeance. That'll be the price of a UI.

So you say. But you haven't even tried.

If you can't get unionists on board with an ILA, are they seriously going to consider the possibilities of even discussing a UI?

All unionists are against everything and therefore we must not try. Is this your position?

Try, by all means.

But history shows that when unionism is threatened it comes out biting. Ulster covenant, civil rights marches, workers strikes, Anglo Irish agreement, fallout from Drumcree parades, fleg protests. Unionists won't even discuss how a UI might work, as that will already show that they have moved one inch from their "never never never" position.

Show me where nationalism or republicanism have discussed how a UI might work?

Other than say "time for a border poll", they haven't.

[Chicago Hurling]

We need to get to a place where united Ireland vs the Union is not green vs orange ... for those who promote a UI, they need to show why it is better both culturally and economically.  Likewise, those who promote the status quo of the union, need to explain in great detail as to why the union is better.  Let's have that big discussion and see where it goes, it may take the next 10+ years to have it, but let's have it.  Just demanding one or the other blindly does not suffice.

IMO NI is a failed entity, Unionists have failed NI, partition has failed this whole island.  But my opinion is worth nothing unless I back it up with hard facts.  My unionist colleagues in work have no argument to the economic fact that NI is a public sector dependent basket case.  Where's Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Intel, IBM, HP etc etc based in the north?  Nowhere is the answer.

Successive British governments and their policies here have helped make the north a basket case. That's why there's no sign of google or Apple up here.

Are google and Apple in RoI because they are successful economies or because they are tax rate whores? If uk lowered corporate tax or allowed a lower rate in NI would NI compete with RoI for these mobile firms?

Highly doubtful. It's too theocratic for the California tech company company culture .

[smelmoth]

We need to get to a place where united Ireland vs the Union is not green vs orange ... for those who promote a UI, they need to show why it is better both culturally and economically.  Likewise, those who promote the status quo of the union, need to explain in great detail as to why the union is better.  Let's have that big discussion and see where it goes, it may take the next 10+ years to have it, but let's have it.  Just demanding one or the other blindly does not suffice.

IMO NI is a failed entity, Unionists have failed NI, partition has failed this whole island.  But my opinion is worth nothing unless I back it up with hard facts.  My unionist colleagues in work have no argument to the economic fact that NI is a public sector dependent basket case.  Where's Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Intel, IBM, HP etc etc based in the north?  Nowhere is the answer.

Successive British governments and their policies here have helped make the north a basket case. That's why there's no sign of google or Apple up here.

Are google and Apple in RoI because they are successful economies or because they are tax rate whores? If uk lowered corporate tax or allowed a lower rate in NI would NI compete with RoI for these mobile firms?

Would Alabama be able to compete with California? As well as looking to make filthy profits, these companies are also eager to attract a talented workforce, so lifestyle and other factors are important too.

Are you suggesting that the talent pool and lifestyle is inferior in Belfast than say Cork or Galway?

[macdanger2]

Yeah, why do people go the bother of going to vote, then spoil their vote.

Makes no sense to me.  A complete waste of time.

I disagree, if 47% (even 5-10%) of the electorate spoiled their vote, it would send a message to the existing parties that the electorate wants something different. When you don't vote at all, it's much easier to say "they can't complain if they can't be arsed voting"

[Eamonnca1]

Yeah, why do people go the bother of going to vote, then spoil their vote.

Makes no sense to me.  A complete waste of time.

I disagree, if 47% (even 5-10%) of the electorate spoiled their vote, it would send a message to the existing parties that the electorate wants something different. When you don't vote at all, it's much easier to say "they can't complain if they can't be arsed voting"

I would consider a spoiled vote to mean "I'm so incompetent I don't know how to fill in a ballot properly" rather than "I demand something different from the parties on this ballot."

[Jell 0 Biafra]

That would depend on how it's spoiled.

[Eamonnca1]

That would depend on how it's spoiled.

"How it's spoiled" is seldom reported, all you usually hear is a brief mention of the number of spoiled ballots. Any "message" you want to send by spoiling your ballots is unlikely to be read by anyone outside of a counting centre. It's like the kid who writes on his GCSE exam paper about how "the school is crap and my teacher's crap and it's just not fair" rather than answering any questions. He still gets an F and only one person gets to see his desperate plea.

[macdanger2]

Yeah, why do people go the bother of going to vote, then spoil their vote.

Makes no sense to me.  A complete waste of time.

I disagree, if 47% (even 5-10%) of the electorate spoiled their vote, it would send a message to the existing parties that the electorate wants something different. When you don't vote at all, it's much easier to say "they can't complain if they can't be arsed voting"

I would consider a spoiled vote to mean "I'm so incompetent I don't know how to fill in a ballot properly" rather than "I demand something different from the parties on this ballot."

You'd hardly still think that if it was ~10% of the vote after a publicised campaign?

[Rossfan]

No matter how many votes get spoiled, deliberately or otherwise,  the valid votes will still elect people.

[Jeepers Creepers]

Is 47% not voting not enough of a message rather than drawing a d**k on the ballot papers?

[Rossfan]

What's the average turn out over say the last 5 elections in the North?