So what do ye think of the black card rule now?

[Hardy]

Do you think we have seen less of the fouls which I believe the black card was brought in to target? Namely the momentum breakers, usually at the other end of the field, committed by forwards and midfielders after a turnover. Committed to slow down the counter attack. Do you think we have less of these now?

Jazes you did it again. I can't keep up with your edits!

Anyway, your question: Would ya read my third paragraph?

[AZOffaly]

Do you think we have seen less of the fouls which I believe the black card was brought in to target? Namely the momentum breakers, usually at the other end of the field, committed by forwards and midfielders after a turnover. Committed to slow down the counter attack. Do you think we have less of these now?

Jazes you did it again. I can't keep up with your edits!

Anyway, your question: Would ya read my third paragraph?

If your third paragraph is "I'd agree with you that, so far, we're seeing a reduction in the taking out of runners. That's not surprising. The card is an effective deterrent for that. Nobody is going to take a sending off just to block a run. Everybody will take one to prevent a goal or a crucial point.", then that's just part of my point. The fouls I'm talking about are the deliberate pull downs that forwards were doing to stop attacks building from the back. The body check one is a different issue in my view.

So, do you think we've seen less of forwards dragging down defenders when the defender is coming out with the ball?

[Hardy]

Do you think we have seen less of the fouls which I believe the black card was brought in to target? Namely the momentum breakers, usually at the other end of the field, committed by forwards and midfielders after a turnover. Committed to slow down the counter attack. Do you think we have less of these now?

Jazes you did it again. I can't keep up with your edits!

Anyway, your question: Would ya read my third paragraph?

If your third paragraph is "I'd agree with you that, so far, we're seeing a reduction in the taking out of runners. That's not surprising. The card is an effective deterrent for that. Nobody is going to take a sending off just to block a run. Everybody will take one to prevent a goal or a crucial point.", then that's just part of my point. The fouls I'm talking about are the deliberate pull downs that forwards were doing to stop attacks building from the back. The body check one is a different issue in my view.

So, do you think we've seen less of forwards dragging down defenders when the defender is coming out with the ball?

Yes - the same point applies. The black card is an effective deterrent for this, as it is for the block but isn't for the score-saving rugby tackle.

It wasn't worth the wholesale farce, many elements of which I've pointed out, that has accompanied the new rules, to achieve these improvements. Never mind the more serious consequence that is the exacerbation of the diving/cheating/simulation culture by providing a much enhanced incentive for it.

[AZOffaly]

Do you think we have seen less of the fouls which I believe the black card was brought in to target? Namely the momentum breakers, usually at the other end of the field, committed by forwards and midfielders after a turnover. Committed to slow down the counter attack. Do you think we have less of these now?

Jazes you did it again. I can't keep up with your edits!

Anyway, your question: Would ya read my third paragraph?

If your third paragraph is "I'd agree with you that, so far, we're seeing a reduction in the taking out of runners. That's not surprising. The card is an effective deterrent for that. Nobody is going to take a sending off just to block a run. Everybody will take one to prevent a goal or a crucial point.", then that's just part of my point. The fouls I'm talking about are the deliberate pull downs that forwards were doing to stop attacks building from the back. The body check one is a different issue in my view.

So, do you think we've seen less of forwards dragging down defenders when the defender is coming out with the ball?

Yes - the same point applies. The black card is an effective deterrent for this, as it is for the block but isn't for the score-saving rugby tackle.

It wasn't worth the wholesale farce, many elements of which I've pointed out, that has accompanied the new rules, to achieve these improvements. Never mind the more serious consequence that is the exacerbation of the diving/cheating/simulation culture by providing a much enhanced incentive for it.

My take on it is that it is a worthwhile initiative if it stops that behaviour. the very fact that people feel it's not worth taking a black card for such a foul, but would have no problem doing it (as we've seen in the past) were such a deterrent not there is reason enough in itself for some form of significant punishment to be there.

My position is that the black card *has* addressed in large part that problem, and that is a good thing.

The question I suppose would be of the baby/bathwater variety. I'm worried about consistency of refs (but was worried about that in the old rules) and I'm worried about diving to 'earn' black cards. No argument for from me. If I were to do up and old Pros and Cons diagram it would probably look like:

Pros : Minimises 'tactical' fouling out the pitch, minimises body checks on runners and therefore allows for greater flow in the game.

Cons : Potentially encourages diving, referees not consistent in enforcement (from ref to ref certainly but ALSO from the same ref in the same game!),

Moot: Minimal change to stopping goal scoring opportunities (people will still take a card, not unexpected in my view), Minimal change to teams closing out games with tactical fouling and taking a few black cards to seal the deal if they have them spare, List of fouls covered incomplete or nonsensical. If #11 drags down #6 to stop a counter attack, he gets a black card. If he simply wraps his arms around him and holds on to him, he gets no black card. Why the difference?

So all in all, it's an imperfect solution in my eyes, but the benefit with regard to the tactical fouling that went on all throughout a game is certainly a worthy one. However there are problems, no doubt about it.

[muppet]

Do you think we have seen less of the fouls which I believe the black card was brought in to target? Namely the momentum breakers, usually at the other end of the field, committed by forwards and midfielders after a turnover. Committed to slow down the counter attack. Do you think we have less of these now?

Jazes you did it again. I can't keep up with your edits!

Anyway, your question: Would ya read my third paragraph?

If your third paragraph is "I'd agree with you that, so far, we're seeing a reduction in the taking out of runners. That's not surprising. The card is an effective deterrent for that. Nobody is going to take a sending off just to block a run. Everybody will take one to prevent a goal or a crucial point.", then that's just part of my point. The fouls I'm talking about are the deliberate pull downs that forwards were doing to stop attacks building from the back. The body check one is a different issue in my view.

So, do you think we've seen less of forwards dragging down defenders when the defender is coming out with the ball?

In the League this was so dramatic that there was very little tackling at all by forwards. We saw a kind of basketball without any 'press' and teams just brought the ball upfield unopposed. However I can't make my mind up regarding the Championship this year. So far it looks much the same as any year. For example Mayo forwards pressed Ros very high up the pitch just like last year.

'forwards dragging down defenders' was supposed to be dealt with by the 'tick' along with other 'pulling and dragging' offences around the pitch. Where is that now?

[AZOffaly]

Don't know, but the 'tick' was obviously ineffective. However, I think this metric should be one of the main ones we measure when talking about the black card. As I said back last summer, Joe Brolly's rant just clouded the issue that was actually being addressed. Not for the first time, Joe's bluster managed to overtake the point he thought he was making.

I'm not calling it a success yet, nor am I calling it a failure. I think we need to objectively analyse it, in a complete manner, at the end of the season. I'm not talking about 'higher scoring games' as a barometer of success. Defending is as much part of the game as attacking, and therefore I'm not saying this is a success if every game ends 4-20 to 3-19. However, if the experience is that the games are flowing well, and we can see statistics that show there are less fouls by forwards/midfielders more than 45 metres from their own goals, then that aspect of it will be successful.

If we see an increase in diving incidents, then that would need to be addressed.

The very fact that you think Mayo pressed high up the pitch, but didn't accrue black cards shows that you can do that still, without the cynical drag downs. I just think that the media and the GAA have muddied the waters in what the black card was supposed to do, and the evidence of my eyes tells me that so far, it seems to be doing what it was actually supposed to do, not what Joe Brolly was shouting about.

The evidence of my own eyes also tells me that referees are struggling with it, and that some players are trying to (ironically) cynically use it to get opponents in trouble. If those persist, then they would be serious counterweights on the scales of the argument.

[blewuporstuffed]

Pros : Minimises 'tactical' fouling out the pitch, minimises body checks on runners and therefore allows for greater flow in the game.

Cons : Potentially encourages diving, referees not consistent in enforcement (from ref to ref certainly but ALSO from the same ref in the same game!),

Moot: Minimal change to stopping goal scoring opportunities (people will still take a card, not unexpected in my view), Minimal change to teams closing out games with tactical fouling and taking a few black cards to seal the deal if they have them spare, List of fouls covered incomplete or nonsensical. If #11 drags down #6 to stop a counter attack, he gets a black card. If he simply wraps his arms around him and holds on to him, he gets no black card. Why the difference?

I would pretty much agree with your summary of the pros and cons but i do think the two cons are major ones and out way any benefit we have gained. Getting rid of the  body checks is a good thing, but the tactical fouling is still there , the black card has only gotten rid of a  small minority of the offences (ie when a player is dragged down to the ground early in the game, which wasnt that common anyway!)

[Rossfan]

Pros : Minimises 'tactical' fouling out the pitch, minimises body checks on runners and therefore allows for greater flow in the game.

Cons : Potentially encourages diving, referees not consistent in enforcement (from ref to ref certainly but ALSO from the same ref in the same game!),

Moot: Minimal change to stopping goal scoring opportunities (people will still take a card, not unexpected in my view), Minimal change to teams closing out games with tactical fouling and taking a few black cards to seal the deal if they have them spare, List of fouls covered incomplete or nonsensical. If #11 drags down #6 to stop a counter attack, he gets a black card. If he simply wraps his arms around him and holds on to him, he gets no black card. Why the difference?

I would pretty much agree with your summary of the pros and cons but i do think the two cons are major ones and out way weigh[/color] any benefit we have gained. Getting rid of the  body checks is a good thing, but the tactical fouling is still there , the black card has only gotten rid of a  small minority of the offences (ie when a player is dragged down to the ground early in the game, which wasnt that common anyway!)

Spotted your deliberate error there 
So because the black card hasn't solved everything .... do you want to get rid of it?
The yellows and reds havent solved everything either.
Damn it  having referees hasn't stopped fouling either so should we get rid of them too ?

[blewuporstuffed]

the fact that the black card hasn't solved everything isn't the issue, its the fact that it has CAUSED as many issues as it has solved ( and if not caused , then certainly made worse instances of diving & referee inconsistency)
I just feel the trade off we have had for a reduction in a small number of cynical fouls isnt worth it.

[sligoman2]

So with one game to go, I wondered if people's opinion had changed for better or worse on the black  card rule.
I wonder if this year being one of the highest scoring years in history is related to the introduction Of this rule.

[Syferus]

It was until referees had a chat amongst themselves and decided to ignore 90% of iron-clad black card offences and switch back to the good ol' ineffectual yellow. The application of the rule has been beyond a joke since the league, when it seemed like the referees were at least trying to apply it.

[BennyHarp]

It was until referees had a chat amongst themselves and decided to ignore 90% of iron-clad black card offences and switch back to the good ol' ineffectual yellow. The application of the rule has been beyond a joke since the league, when it seemed like the referees were at least trying to apply it.

+1 The black card has been effectively ignored since the quarter finals and we have found out in the semi finals what we suspected all along, that there's not much wrong with the game as it is.

[Zulu]

It has largely eliminated off the ball blocking and has proved an effective deterrent to pulling lads to the ground. There has been issues with its application but it has proved to be an undoubted success over all. It was never going to be a perfect success but it has been an improvement on what's gone before.

[brokencrossbar1]

It has largely eliminated off the ball blocking and has proved an effective deterrent to pulling lads to the ground. There has been issues with its application but it has proved to be an undoubted success over all. It was never going to be a perfect success but it has been an improvement on what's gone before.

I would tend to agree with this.  It has seen a better style of football.  It does create frustration sometimes when it is not implemented correctly but so do all rules.  After year 1 I think it is a success and as we get used to it we will see it working out better again.

[AZOffaly]

I'd be thinking along similar lines, but a bit worried that refs will keep rowing back on it until the players and coaches decide it's not going to be enforced.