Seeing as the Kerry thread has turned into a Championship structure thread and as most Counties have exited the Championships I thought it's time to give this old chestnut another whirl.
Any new,innovative, exciting, revolutionary practical proposals folks?
Don't forget to take Clubs and th'oul hurley into account.
Two tier Championship - sixteen teams in each - four groups of four - play each other once - top two into quarter-finals.
Participation in Championship can be based on either final League Position (Division 1 and 2 Teams play in Senior Championship) or Provincial Championship (Provincial semi-finalists go forward to play in Senior Championship).
Of the two seeding options above, it would be better if league was used, as this would be the fairest way to determine what Championship you would participate in. However by doing so, it would seriously undermine the importance of Provincial Championships.
The current system is inherently unfair and is very, very stale.
We need to get away from our typical irish mentality of doing what was done before. I'd have no problem scrapping the Ulster championship. Then again I am a Derry man and our record is pants :D
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on August 03, 2016, 11:26:56 AM
Two tier Championship - sixteen teams in each - four groups of four - play each other once - top two into quarter-finals.
Participation in Championship can be based on either final League Position (Division 1 and 2 Teams play in Senior Championship) or Provincial Championship (Provincial semi-finalists go forward to play in Senior Championship).
Of the two seeding options above, it would be better if league was used, as this would be the fairest way to determine what Championship you would participate in. However by doing so, it would seriously undermine the importance of Provincial Championships.
The current system is inherently unfair and is very, very stale.
It's a reasonable idea but I think for the second tier there needs to be an option to compete in the Senior Championship if you win that tier.
Also if you win the 2nd tier competition but still remain in Division 3 that would create a bit of an anomaly! The basic premise is OK I think as it places a higher emphasis on the league. There will be a bit of a problem with dead rubber games in game 3 when teams have already qualified etc. but it gives weaker counties a chance to play more games and try and get themselves to a better level.
To have a proper reform of the championship structures we will have to bite the bullet and get rid of the provincial championships. Until that happens, the current system with all its obvious flaws, is probably the best way.
There's still a reluctance among many GAA people to dispense with the provincial system although that does appear to be slowly changing. There also appears to be no support for a B or second tier championship amongst the smaller counties so that is also out.
What people seem to want is a championship that includes the following:
-All the counties competing for the Sam Maguire (no second tier Tommy Murphy Cups)
-Retention of provincial championships (tradition maintained and all that)
-Every county having a similar path to the latter stages (impossible within unequal provincial structures you would think)
-Knockout championship element maintained (we don't seem to like round robin formats)
-No dead rubber matches (again, impossible within most of the proposed systems)
-Enough leeway in the structures for counties to fit in their club leagues & championships (a significant aspect of the greatest challenge facing the association at present)
Until some sort of a consensus emerges on what we want from a championship structure, it's going to be impossible to come up with a workable solution. I think we will be stuck with the provincial system for a long time yet.
Quote from: screenexile on August 03, 2016, 11:37:46 AM
It's a reasonable idea but I think for the second tier there needs to be an option to compete in the Senior Championship if you win that tier.
Agreed - that is fair comment.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on August 03, 2016, 11:35:25 AM
We need to get away from our typical irish mentality of doing what was done before. I'd have no problem scrapping the Ulster championship.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 03, 2016, 11:41:12 AM
To have a proper reform of the championship structures we will have to bite the bullet and get rid of the provincial championships.
I agree with you both - the unfairness that we have is based solely on the Provincial Championships. I only mentioned them as I feel the reality is that they will not be going anywhere, given the power of the Provincial Councils.
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on August 03, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 03, 2016, 11:37:46 AM
It's a reasonable idea but I think for the second tier there needs to be an option to compete in the Senior Championship if you win that tier.
Agreed - that is fair comment.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on August 03, 2016, 11:35:25 AM
We need to get away from our typical irish mentality of doing what was done before. I'd have no problem scrapping the Ulster championship.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 03, 2016, 11:41:12 AM
To have a proper reform of the championship structures we will have to bite the bullet and get rid of the provincial championships.
I agree with you both - the unfairness that we have is based solely on the Provincial Championships. I only mentioned them as I feel the reality is that they will not be going anywhere, given the power of the Provincial Councils.
Is this to ring fence and secure their jobs rather than the betterment of the game?? I suppose if in their position you'd do the same.
The GPA have a proposal with 4 groups of 8 but I don't know the detail
The new system would have to give every team 3 or 4 matches. Keep Croke Park for the end stages.
The provincial championships could be run off after the league 9r instead of it. There is too much psychology in them. And Leinster is a mess.
Counties are not going to accept 2 tiers.
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on August 03, 2016, 11:52:55 AM
I agree with you both - the unfairness that we have is based solely on the Provincial Championships. I only mentioned them as I feel the reality is that they will not be going anywhere, given the power of the Provincial Councils.
You have stadia in Cork and Belfast being built which rely, especially the latter, on the concept of a provincial championship.
Also groups of 8 are fine, but if they are not geographically based you'd have some games with very modest attendances, Derry v Wexford would not be overcrowded whoever got home advantage, although they both decent teams and Down v Cork would not do much for the Mourne tourist industry.
the league is restructured to 3 divisions of 12
the pre-season competitions (mckenna cup etc) are scrapped and the league starts earlier
the top 12 places in the league enter the Sam Maguire competition (a 16 team knockout competition) and are seeded accordingly
the provincial championships are then played and the winners are seeded 13/14/15/16 on a rotating basis, unless of course some of the winners have a higher seeding due to league position, in that case the next placed league team would enter the same maguire competition at #16.
the championship draw is then:
(higher seeded teams have home advantage in the first round)
side a
#1 v#16
#2 v#15
#3 v#14
#4 v#13
side b
#5 v #12
#6 v #11
#7 v #10
#8 v #9
then an open draw of one team from side a v one team from side b
and an open draw then onwards to the final
The bottom placed 16 teams in the league would enter a secondary competition and again would be a knockout seeded draw based on league placings
on the second year of this format, only the top 11 teams in the league qualify automatically for the Sam maguire cup along with the 4 provincial winners and the previous years winner from the 'B' competition
I know alot of people are dead against a 'B' competition, but this format still allows ALL counties the chance to qualify for the sam maguire on any given year by winning their province, or if they have won teh previous years secondary competition.
It would also place more emphasis on league placings, making the league more competitive.
This format also keeps the provincial structure, but reduces its importance in terms of winning an AI.
(ie finishing in the top 4 in the league is of more benefit that winning the provincial title in terms of your overall seeding)
I would scrap the league finals/semi finals etc and just award a div 1/2/3 trophy to whoever finishes top
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 03, 2016, 11:41:12 AM
To have a proper reform of the championship structures we will have to bite the bullet and get rid of the provincial championships. Until that happens, the current system with all its obvious flaws, is probably the best way.
There's still a reluctance among many GAA people to dispense with the provincial system although that does appear to be slowly changing. There also appears to be no support for a B or second tier championship amongst the smaller counties so that is also out.
What people seem to want is a championship that includes the following:
-All the counties competing for the Sam Maguire (no second tier Tommy Murphy Cups)
-Retention of provincial championships (tradition maintained and all that)
-Every county having a similar path to the latter stages (impossible within unequal provincial structures you would think)
-Knockout championship element maintained (we don't seem to like round robin formats)
-No dead rubber matches (again, impossible within most of the proposed systems)
-Enough leeway in the structures for counties to fit in their club leagues & championships (a significant aspect of the greatest challenge facing the association at present)
Until some sort of a consensus emerges on what we want from a championship structure, it's going to be impossible to come up with a workable solution. I think we will be stuck with the provincial system for a long time yet.
The record of teams who played in Division 4 is getting worse and worse year-by-year - and this year they have hit a new low - with no team from Division 4 beating any team who wasn't also from Division 4.
If you give these teams more games (unless it's among themselves) all you are going to get are an increased number of uncompetitive games that will be of no benefit to anyone.
It's probably going to take a few more years for the painful truth to be accepted but looking at the results of the Division 4 teams for this year and how the form of Division 4 teams in the championship has steadily been declining over the last few years (which is something I really don't see changing any time soon), I've come to the conclusion that these teams have no place in the main championship. These counties may want to take part in the main show but their performances haven't done anything to support this.
I think the provincial councils are a massive barrier to any change as regards the provincial championships - I think the provincial councils need to be removed before there is any chance the provincial championships can get changed.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on August 03, 2016, 12:07:00 PM
the league is restructured to 3 divisions of 12
the pre-season competitions (mckenna cup etc) are scrapped and the league starts earlier
the top 12 places in the league enter the Sam Maguire competition (a 16 team knockout competition) and are seeded accordingly
the provincial championships are then played and the winners are seeded 13/14/15/16 on a rotating basis, unless of course some of the winners have a higher seeding due to league position, in that case the next placed league team would enter the same maguire competition at #16.
the championship draw is then:
(higher seeded teams have home advantage in the first round)
side a
#1 v#16
#2 v#15
#3 v#14
#4 v#13
side b
#5 v #12
#6 v #11
#7 v #10
#8 v #9
then an open draw of one team from side a v one team from side b
and an open draw then onwards to the final
The bottom placed 16 teams in the league would enter a secondary competition and again would be a knockout seeded draw based on league placings
on the second year of this format, only the top 11 teams in the league qualify automatically for the Sam maguire cup along with the 4 provincial winners and the previous years winner from the 'B' competition
I know alot of people are dead against a 'B' competition, but this format still allows ALL counties the chance to qualify for the sam maguire on any given year by winning their province, or if they have won teh previous years secondary competition.
It would also place more emphasis on league placings, making the league more competitive.
This format also keeps the provincial structure, but reduces its importance in terms of winning an AI.
(ie finishing in the top 4 in the league is of more benefit that winning the provincial title in terms of your overall seeding)
I would scrap the league finals/semi finals etc and just award a div 1/2/3 trophy to whoever finishes top
In the above format based on this years league placings and championship format the first round in the knockout last 16 Sam maguire would be
Side ADublin v laois
Kerry v Armagh
Roscommon v Derry
Donegal v Meath
Side BMayo v Fermanagh
Monaghan v Galway
Cork v Cavan
Down V Tyrone
and the (purely hypothetical) predictiong winners of that you would have a draw of
SIDE A
Dublin
Kerry
Roscommon
Donegal
V
SIDE B
Mayo
Monaghan
Cork
Tyrone
in the last 8
Quote from: screenexile on August 03, 2016, 11:37:46 AM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on August 03, 2016, 11:26:56 AM
Two tier Championship - sixteen teams in each - four groups of four - play each other once - top two into quarter-finals.
Participation in Championship can be based on either final League Position (Division 1 and 2 Teams play in Senior Championship) or Provincial Championship (Provincial semi-finalists go forward to play in Senior Championship).
Of the two seeding options above, it would be better if league was used, as this would be the fairest way to determine what Championship you would participate in. However by doing so, it would seriously undermine the importance of Provincial Championships.
The current system is inherently unfair and is very, very stale.
It's a reasonable idea but I think for the second tier there needs to be an option to compete in the Senior Championship if you win that tier.
Also if you win the 2nd tier competition but still remain in Division 3 that would create a bit of an anomaly! The basic premise is OK I think as it places a higher emphasis on the league. There will be a bit of a problem with dead rubber games in game 3 when teams have already qualified etc. but it gives weaker counties a chance to play more games and try and get themselves to a better level.
Teams should look at winning the second tier competition as being promotion to the top tier the following year and not like they are being excluded from the championship altogether. I don't see why they should be parachuted in that particular year as they can get there on merit over a period of time. Would the possibility of promotion not add the required value to the second tier competition? Could you even go as far as having 3 tiers at which point there are very few meaningless games.
12 in top tier - 2 groups of 6, top 4 into quarter finals, bottom 2 in relegation play offs.
10 in second tier - 2 groups of 5, top teams into semi finals, play offs of teams in 2nd and 3rd for other semi final spots. Bottom two in relegation play offs.
10 in tier three - as above.
Run the provincials as a knock out in March and April.
My preferred logical option is for a Senior (12), Intermediate(12) and Junior (8) all Irelands with separate Provincials with all participating.
Depending on whether you go with Round robins or Knock outs - either have a small League or as is.
However this proposal would never see the light of day so I'll throw out another proposal.
Taking into account that :-
* the "bald men" want to take part in the "comb" championship
* the Provincials are too ingrained in us and all that local rivalry and tradition etc
* The NFL provides lots of good games between reasonably evenly matched teams but is lumped into the worst months of the year
I suggest -
Play the NFL in 4 Divisions as at present but going much later into the year interspersed with breaks for the Provincial Championships. No knock out stage in the NFL, top team wins the Division and keep the 2 up/2 down.
Play all Provincial preliminary rounds the same weekend, all Qtr finals the same etc. Extra time in all games.
This would take 11 weekends.
Based on this year my proposed timetable would be
6/7 Feb NFL Rd 1
13/14 Feb NFL Rd 2
27/28 Feb NFL Rd3
12/13 Mar NFL Rd 4
26/27 Mar Provincial preliminaries
9/10 April NFL Rd 5
23/24 Apr Prov Qtr Finals (incl London and NY games)
7/8 May NFL Rd 6
21/22 May Prov Semis
4/5 June NFL Rd 7.
11/12 June Prov Finals.
25/26 June All Ireland Championship Rd 1 ( 8 D4 teams of next year's NFL v 8 D 3 teams of next year's NFL)
2/3 July - AI Championship Round 2 (8 winners Rd 1 v 8 teams of next year's D2)
16/17 July AI Championship Round 3 ( 8 winners Round 2 v 8 teams in next year's D1)
Provincial Champions seeded an d if a D2 or 3 side won a Provincial the go to Round 3 with next lowest NFL team taking their place in Round 1 or 2.
6/7 Aug All Irl Qtr Finals
27/28 Aug - both AI Semis the same weekend
18 Sept AI Football final.
Challenge is to fit club games and them oul' hurley games in there as well.
U17 and U 20 I C championships to be played same weekends as the Senior football IC games.
Without local rivalries in GAA games supporters won't turn up to round robin games
Provincial c'ships are finished. As they aren't linked to Sam, it's just pointless.
I favour a 32 county open draw, FA cup style. No seeding.
I wish they'd do something quick though, people are leaving in their droves.
I am of course biased, but I've never seen a championship structure proposal that is more egalitarian than my own, nor one that would have less impact on existing provincial structures, nor one that gives so much kudos back to league football.
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0
I am of course biased.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2016, 03:41:28 PM
I am of course biased, but I've never seen a championship structure proposal that is more egalitarian than my own, nor one that would have less impact on existing provincial structures, nor one that gives so much kudos back to league football.
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0
I am of course biased.
Still the best structure that I have seen.
Quote from: OgraAnDun on August 03, 2016, 04:05:31 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2016, 03:41:28 PM
I am of course biased, but I've never seen a championship structure proposal that is more egalitarian than my own, nor one that would have less impact on existing provincial structures, nor one that gives so much kudos back to league football.
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0
I am of course biased.
Still the best structure that I have seen.
Would agree with the two Down men on this one.
What do posters think of the fact that, according to the GPA, there is no appetite to get rid of the provincial championships, nor to have a second tier championship?
What I mean is, aren't the players one of, if not thee most important stakeholder in this debate? Doing exactly the opposite of what they specifically want is a bit of a slap in the face is it not?
The more I hear from players nowadays, the less I want to hear from them.
The games don't belong to them.
From the players should be seen and not heard school of oul shtyle Offeeshuls Jinx? :D
Re the provincials.
It doesn't actually matter what the players think. Or the spectators, or the media.
Any decision to change the Championship can only be passed at congress, which is formed in an overwhelming majority by county and provincial representatives.
The people who attend therefore would be briefed how to vote by their relevant boards.
Provincial boards will never vote for a system that reduces their power or relevance.
Counties will never vote for a system that has the potential to reduce their turnover, and no matter what how hard you try to convince yourself, an early stage match between counties on the opposite sides of the island will only bear a small percentage of the revenue of two neighbours meeting.
Counties will also never vote for a system that reduces their influence, and only an idealist on a crack pipe could envisage that a county would be better represented as a single entity rather than working as a bloc (which they often currently do).
Last not but least, even if somehow finance and politics could be resolved. The people who inhabit county boards - at least the vast majority of them - take on these vocational roles as they feel a belonging to the GAA. By nature, as they admire what has gone before, this will tend to make them conservative.
---
In summary, any proposal to remove or reduce the value of the provincials is a dead duck. It has an equal chance of getting passed as a vote to allow free admission to all championship matches i.e. it will never happen.
Even discussing the idea is waste of time.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2016, 05:50:36 PM
Re the provincials.
It doesn't actually matter what the players think. Or the spectators, or the media.
Any decision to change the Championship can only be passed at congress, which is formed in an overwhelming majority by county and provincial representatives.
The people who attend therefore would be briefed how to vote by their relevant boards.
Provincial boards will never vote for a system that reduces their power or relevance.
Counties will never vote for a system that has the potential to reduce their turnover, and no matter what how hard you try to convince yourself, an early stage match between counties on the opposite sides of the island will only bear a small percentage of the revenue of two neighbours meeting.
Counties will also never vote for a system that reduces their influence, and only an idealist on a crack pipe could envisage that a county would be better represented as a single entity rather than working as a bloc (which they often currently do).
Last not but least, even if somehow finance and politics could be resolved. The people who inhabit county boards - at least the vast majority of them - take on these vocational roles as they feel a belonging to the GAA. By nature, as they admire what has gone before, this will tend to make them conservative.
---
In summary, any proposal to remove or reduce the value of the provincials is a dead duck. It has an equal chance of getting passed as a vote to allow free admission to all championship matches i.e. it will never happen.
Even discussing the idea is waste of time.
I dunno. The state of the championship is becoming existential. Whenever the Dubs return to mediocrity will show how bad things are money wise. People are sick of the status quo.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 03, 2016, 03:41:28 PM
I am of course biased, but I've never seen a championship structure proposal that is more egalitarian than my own, nor one that would have less impact on existing provincial structures, nor one that gives so much kudos back to league football.
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0
I am of course biased.
It's a very good proposal thewobbler though there are some issues that were highlighted by posters in the original thread. My own proposal was simpler insofar as I proposed getting rid of the provincials and seed teams based on league performance with a straight knockout championship after 1 v 32, 2 v 31 etc. The benefit of that system compared to yours is that all teams are still able to win Sam after the league but it removes the provincials entirely.
However, your system addresses a lot of the problems we have -
Teams not getting enough proper/important games against opponents of similar ability
Teams being able to float along for most of the year
No definitive structure to our season so CB's can plan club games
No real momentum to our season so it doesn't really engage people
No pathway for teams to improve
Not important enough games at county home venues.
Your proposal addresses a lot of that, as does mine, and probably a few others. Why we don't implement one of them is beyond me!
By the way, I'd also play minor and U21 on a group basis of 4 x 8 with the top 2 qualifying for the QF. We bring lads through development squads and then give possibly one IC competitive game per year from 17 to 21 years of age, madness!!
I don't mind the wobbler's proposal but the GPA's one is probably a little bit better and would be a bit more beneficial to the weaker counties. With them getting to put forward one motion at congress as part of their new agreement, can it be implementing a new structure? If so could it get the votes. The status quo can't be continued anyway.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-how-i-would-reinvigorate-football-championship-1.2241993
Jim's idea is still in my view the current best proposal - 2 tiered but every team can still win the All Ireland at start of championship. It's hard not to acknowledge his point that there is an issue moving from 5 current trophies in the current championship to possibly max 1 or 2 in other non provincial based ideas.
It'd be better spending time trying to level the playing field between counties in terms of resources (and I don't just mean Dublin) to raise the standards of weaker counties and make games more competitive
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 03, 2016, 08:32:02 PM
It'd be better spending time trying to level the playing field between counties in terms of resources (and I don't just mean Dublin) to raise the standards of weaker counties and make games more competitive
32 counties. 1 big prize. If everything was equal, you'd see your county win the title every two generations. Or your provincial title once a decade.
Equality is shit too.
Having seen the balls that the GAA have made of all the rule changes, the international rules, the scheduling, the deals with the GPA etc. I would be more than reluctant to change the structure of the championship now. It'd be grand if the smartest idea was the winner but sure we all know it would be some half-arsed, concocted notion from the head of Eugene McGee or some other old windbag.
The current structure is poor but I guarantee you the current bigwigs would find a worse alternative, almost certainly given our history to be a bastardised version of either the champions league or Heineken Cup with wealth and success funneled more and more towards an elite.
Wobblers quoted idea is the best I've ever seen but there's not a f**king chance something so wide ranging and original would be adopted at Congress. We may as well discuss where we'll go for pints next year when Carlow win the AI.
Jim is a smart lad and I for years have always had a big problem with narrowing the pool of trophies from 5 to 1. That would almost double or triple the level of dead rubber matches. Ulster, for all the faults with the football quality has a wide range of finalists in the last 10 years and every (I think) teams have been within 70 mins of the Anglo Celt in recent years.
One simple move I think should definitely be trialed is to move Dublin from Leinster. We've the precident of moving Galway to Leinster in hurling so why not reinvigorate the Leinster championship by taking out the big dogs and letting them slug it out in the two horse towns of Connacht or Munster. I'd even accept them in Ulster. Wacky idea but we don't lose much by trying it. If it rises too much opposition then it's easily undone. Wouldn't see it as a long term deal but sure couldn't it be trialed on a 1 or 2 year basis to rise a bit of interest in a failing championship.
Has this been posted yet
http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/proposal-the-format-the-all-ireland-sfc/
Interesting to say the least and at first glance it seems to tick a lot of boxes. Unless I'm missing something I don't see any real weakness to it within the constraint of retaining the provincial championships. Still think linking the league to the championship is the key to a real solution but I'd certainly be willing to give this format a go.
Quote from: Zulu on August 04, 2016, 12:40:18 PM
Interesting to say the least and at first glance it seems to tick a lot of boxes. Unless I'm missing something I don't see any real weakness to it within the constraint of retaining the provincial championships. Still think linking the league to the championship is the key to a real solution but I'd certainly be willing to give this format a go.
On a first glance, I see issues for club teams in Counties that reach the QF. Even worse for the counties that win a provincial title. June, July, August could be wiped out for clubs completely.
I can see the benefits of more appealing games in the summer, but it seems to just be another money maker for the GAA with more games getting on TV etc.
I think the clubs will come off worse again :(
This format will simply ensure Dublin won't get caught cold coming out of Leinster and also endure that their semiprofessional set up sees them appear in the most semis & finals.
This will surely lead to the strong counties getting stronger and the weak counties getting weaker.
Quote from: StGallsGAA on August 04, 2016, 12:49:26 PM
This format will simply ensure Dublin won't get caught cold coming out of Leinster and also endure that their semiprofessional set up sees them appear in the most semis & finals.
As it does already, Dublin always been there or there abouts bar some barren years, check your history.
How will a county that reaches the quarter finals having to play two extra games help clubs and 'condense' the calendar in any way?
Quote from: Zulu on August 04, 2016, 12:40:18 PM
Interesting to say the least and at first glance it seems to tick a lot of boxes. Unless I'm missing something I don't see any real weakness to it within the constraint of retaining the provincial championships. Still think linking the league to the championship is the key to a real solution but I'd certainly be willing to give this format a go.
This is all about making the big boys bigger. Group stages at the Quater final stage? The penny has finally dropped that there will be nobody going to Leinster games. This is going down the semi-professional route! The All Ireland proper will no longer be knockout.
Quote from: OgraAnDun on August 04, 2016, 01:01:14 PM
How will a county that reaches the quarter finals having to play two extra games help clubs and 'condense' the calendar in any way?
Do counties that get to QF's now play many club championship games?
Quote from: Thy Kingdom Come on August 04, 2016, 01:04:40 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 04, 2016, 12:40:18 PM
Interesting to say the least and at first glance it seems to tick a lot of boxes. Unless I'm missing something I don't see any real weakness to it within the constraint of retaining the provincial championships. Still think linking the league to the championship is the key to a real solution but I'd certainly be willing to give this format a go.
This is all about making the big boys bigger. Group stages at the Quater final stage? The penny has finally dropped that there will be nobody going to Leinster games. This is going down the semi-professional route! The All Ireland proper will no longer be knockout.
It's definitely not about that anyway.
Quote from: The Aristocrat on August 04, 2016, 12:56:07 PM
Quote from: StGallsGAA on August 04, 2016, 12:49:26 PM
This format will simply ensure Dublin won't get caught cold coming out of Leinster and also endure that their semiprofessional set up sees them appear in the most semis & finals.
As it does already, Dublin always been there or there abouts bar some barren years, check your history.
83 95 11....
They haven't been there or there abouts for large chunks of the last 30 years. If Meath got their arses in gear they could slip back into mediocrity again.
Quote from: tonto1888 on August 04, 2016, 12:20:51 PM
Has this been posted yet
http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/proposal-the-format-the-all-ireland-sfc/
Ulster champions will have it tough....5 big games after winning an Ulster title..
Quote from: south Laois on August 04, 2016, 12:54:39 PM
This will surely lead to the strong counties getting stronger and the weak counties getting weaker.
Agree with this but that being said for the like of ourselves and most counties they would welcome more games and certainly it would bring developing counties on playing top teams more in the championship. Will ensure tge kerrys and dublins will become even stronger though and less worry about them getting caught on one bad day. Club scene could be affected badly though. A gpa type organisation for club players is badly needed
At initial reading I like this from a Senior Inter County competition perspective. I'm one of the dinosaurs that like the provincial championships, and I'm really hoping to see Tipp win one soon. I also acknowledge the vagaries that provincial championships with uneven numbers of participants can throw up, therefore this sort of structure provides an avenue to a quarter final for teams like Tipp, and it also gives you some serious games if you can reach there. It would be invaluable for Tipp to play a Galway, Tyrone and Dublin say, in a 3 game round robin.
A couple of concerns I would have and maybe they're addressed in the detail. What does this do to the calendar? Where do club games fit in? And secondly, I would hope the venues for those round robins are not just 'Croke Park for every Dubs game'.
Edit, I see the 1/4 finals are Croke Park/Hope advantage for provincial winner/Home advantage for Qualifer. Not bad in fairness.
The argument that some people make that the back door helps the bigger teams as they need to have two off days to be put out is valid, and this new structure will only exacerbate the problem. Tipp's victory against Galway would mean nothing unless they beat another team in the group. Theoretically, you get three chances now to win an AI - first one in the provincial championship, second in the back door and if you lose again in the QF, a third chance to redeem yourself and go through as a runner up.
This is just a way of squeezing a few extra high profile games out of the calendar to bring in some extra money for the GAA.
Is squeezing a few extra high profile games out of the calendar something most people don't want, or...?
Quote from: Keane on August 04, 2016, 01:53:16 PM
Is squeezing a few extra high profile games out of the calendar something most people don't want, or...?
Not if it strips the knock out element from the championship and takes away the great shocks victories/losses that people complain are dying out of today's game.
2016 Worked Example of this...
Qualifier Round 1 - 16 non-provincial semi finalists
New York, London, Leitrim, Wicklow, Carlow, Longford, Wexford, Laois, Offaly, Louth, Limerick, Waterford, Antrim, Derry, Armagh, Down and Fermanagh (actually 17 teams, but I presume New York would be out).
So at random you could have London v Wicklow, LEitrim v Carlow, Longford v Laois, Wexford v Offaly, Louth v Waterford, Limerick v Antrim, Derry v Down, Armagh v Fermanagh.
Qualifier Round 2 - Wicklow, Leitrim, Laois, Offaly, Louth, Antrim, Derry, Fermanagh versus Monaghan, Cavan, Cork, Clare, Kildare, Meath, Mayo Sligo.
So let's say Wicklow v Monaghan, Leitrim v Cavan, Laois v Cork, Offaly v Clare, Louth v Kildare, Antrim v Meath, Derry v Mayo, Fermanagh v Sligo.
Qualifier Round 3 - Open Draw between (say) Monaghan, Cavan, Cork, Clare, Kildare, Meath, Mayo, Fermanagh
again at random - Monaghan v Fermanagh, Cavan v MAyo, Cork v Meath, Clare v Kildare
Qualifier Round 4 - Monaghan, Mayo, Cork, Clare versus Westmeath, Tipperary, Roscommon, Donegal
So maybe Monaghan v Roscommon, Mayo v Donegal, Cork v Tipperary, Clare v Westmeath
And then the quarter finals
Dublin
Kerry
Monaghan
Mayo
Tyrone
Galway
Tipperary
Clare
It's not bad. Still potential for a few mismatches early on, but as long as you keep all 32 eligible for Sam (which I would like, and so do the players) then I suppose that will always happen.
Is that it? Or how long did it take to come up with this brainchild idea.
There are committee's set up to research into these ideas and that is the best they could put forward. How about starting by ripping up the outdated pre-historic imbalanced provincial structures. This only serves to create a super 5/6 counties who will benefit and get stronger, whilst the weak/mid tier counties will continue to struggle to convince players it is worth their while playing county football. Kerry/Cork/Dublin/Mayo/Galway/Tyrone/Donegal will probably be delighted with this new proposal as they will be in the last 8 most seasons. Other counties will be left to flounder.
Hot on the heels of the gpa funding increase we have extra games added to an already congested schedule to pay for it. Paving the way for semi professional structure. Clubs screwed even more. The weaker counties pay more in expenses for less chance of success. Gone will be the chance of a shock result for weaker counties. Maybe I'm wrong 😉
The group stage is an interesting idea.
I cant see how this proposal does anything but make the club situation worse.
it also doesnt adress the imbalance between league & championship.
We dont need extra championship games IMO, we need to make the league more important and make taht more of a feature of the season.
The 2 single biggest benificiaries are Kerry and Dublin. It's like giving Barcelona and Real Madrid a bye into the quarter finals of the CL every year. Remove the historical boundaries and create a championship that is fair to ALL counties not the select big few who benefit purely because of geographical boundaries.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 04, 2016, 02:26:51 PM
The 2 single biggest benificiaries are Kerry and Dublin. It's like giving Barcelona and Real Madrid a bye into the quarter finals of the CL every year. Remove the historical boundaries and create a championship that is fair to ALL counties not the select big few who benefit purely because of geographical boundaries.
They pretty much have that already
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on August 04, 2016, 02:27:51 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 04, 2016, 02:26:51 PM
The 2 single biggest benificiaries are Kerry and Dublin. It's like giving Barcelona and Real Madrid a bye into the quarter finals of the CL every year. Remove the historical boundaries and create a championship that is fair to ALL counties not the select big few who benefit purely because of geographical boundaries.
They pretty much have that already
Yes I agree, but that's the point. It has done absolutely nothing to address the unfairness that already exists.
From reading these forums it seems the issues with the current system are:
1. Not enough time for club games
2. Too easy for some of the bigger teams to make quarter finals. (Unbalanced structures)
3. Provincial stages have little impact
4. League of little relevance
5. Uncompetitive games
6. Little chance of a shock
7. Dwindling attendances
8. Growing disparity between the bigger and smaller counties.
9. 6 day turnaround
I'm sure there are others
For me the new proposal addresses none of those issues, I don't have a problem with group stages but not at that stage. It serves little practical benefit.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 04, 2016, 02:26:51 PM
The 2 single biggest benificiaries are Kerry and Dublin. It's like giving Barcelona and Real Madrid a bye into the quarter finals of the CL every year. Remove the historical boundaries and create a championship that is fair to ALL counties not the select big few who benefit purely because of geographical boundaries.
Yup - it means that the likelihood of a bottom or middle ranking club pulling off an upset on the day would be almost completely out the window.
The Division 1 teams counties will vote for this and everyone else will vote against it.
For the mid-ranking footballing counties it would be the equivalent of cutting their own throats, as the odds of getting to a semi-final through the group stage would be far far less than the current quarter-final system.
This year Tipp had to beat Galway to get to a semi-final. Under the new system it would be a group with Galway, Mayo and Tyrone [making the assumption that the A and B process was still in effect] Imagine what sort of a kick in the teeth it would be for the Tipp lads if they knew they still had 2 games against Mayo and Tyrone to play?
On the other side it would be a group of Clare, Donegal, Dublin and Kerry. Imagine what sort of state Clare football would be in in a month, if they had 2 more game to play against Donegal and Dublin after the 11 point tanking by Kerry?
Can't see this having a hope of getting approved.
What other alternatives are there?
Looks like HQ only interested in the successful teams and generating more €s.
If anything round robins should be for the teams knocked out early so they could get more games and improve themselves.
At present Counties can't make club Championship fixtures for July because they might be playing a string of Qualifiers.
Then they get ko'd in lateJune so club and county have no activity.
At least if they had 3 group games set in stone.....
Any proposal that includes round robin group stages will prove to be a complete farce. Can't believe this nonsense ever seen the light of day.
Can they not just move on and have 8 groups of 4 in champions league style format? Just don't mention champions league or the dinosaurs at congress will never pass it.
Quote from: south Laois on August 04, 2016, 03:02:11 PM
Can they not just move on and have 8 groups of 4 in champions league style format? Just don't mention champions league or the dinosaurs at congress will never pass it.
I'm half-convinced this is why this has no chance of getting passed.
Dinosaurs could well be convinced to pass this because it will bring in the €€€€€€s.
Wilfully ignoring the big fat limping elephant in the room as per usual.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:09:51 PM
Wilfully ignoring the big fat limping elephant in the room as per usual.
Which is?
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 04, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:09:51 PM
Wilfully ignoring the big fat limping elephant in the room as per usual.
Which is?
PaddyPower are currently taking bets on it being the provincial structure at 1/3.
Is this the GAA's first attempt at dipping their toes into a round robin championship format? I don't mind it at first glance. Have they suggested potential dates? How come this didn't form any of the proposals considered last year? It clearly hasn't been designed to help weaker counties? Would Tipp have won through a round robin stage this year? I don't know!
Quote from: south Laois on August 04, 2016, 03:02:11 PM
Can they not just move on and have 8 groups of 4 in champions league style format? Just don't mention champions league or the dinosaurs at congress will never pass it.
Do you watch the champions league?
In general the group stages are very poor stuff with the real competition only starting when it gates to the last 16 and the knockout stages.
we would just be in the same place we are in now, with the real action no starting until august anyway.
Quote from: David McKeown on August 04, 2016, 02:40:28 PM
From reading these forums it seems the issues with the current system are:
1. Not enough time for club games
2. Too easy for some of the bigger teams to make quarter finals. (Unbalanced structures)
3. Provincial stages have little impact
4. League of little relevance
5. Uncompetitive games
6. Little chance of a shock
7. Dwindling attendances
8. Growing disparity between the bigger and smaller counties.
9. 6 day turnaround
I'm sure there are others
For me the new proposal addresses none of those issues, I don't have a problem with group stages but not at that stage. It serves little practical benefit.
I agree 100% david.
The issues you have listed are the main problems we have and very few (if any?) are solved by this new format.
Infact i would imagine it would make no. 1 even worse
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 04, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:09:51 PM
Wilfully ignoring the big fat limping elephant in the room as per usual.
Which is?
The Provincials, and the GAA hierarchy.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 04, 2016, 03:13:59 PM
Is this the GAA's first attempt at dipping their toes into a round robin championship format? I don't mind it at first glance. Have they suggested potential dates? How come this didn't form any of the proposals considered last year? It clearly hasn't been designed to help weaker counties? Would Tipp have won through a round robin stage this year? I don't know!
Tipp probably wouldn't have won through a round robin this year, however if your aim as a county is long term progress, apart from 1 year flashes of sun a lá Wexford in 2008 and Fermanagh 2004, then this approach is probably of more benefit long term.
It will certainly limit cinderella stories, but maybe it will prepare a couple more teams to go to the dance more often.
No matter what system you put in place the top teams will be at the business end. That's usually the idea as well. May the best team win. You have to allow everyone compete, and you have to allow a chance for everyone to gatecrash the party. The current system does that, but this approach would reward the gatecrashers even more by exposing them to top games. This run is so brilliant for Tipperary because they are getting experience of playing very good teams in big games, but my hope is that this experience, allied to lads returning, allied to continuing to improve the underage scene, will give them a base to be in the last 8 on a much more consistant basis. If that's the case, and the last 8 is in this format, then that will bring them on even more.
I'd be worried about calendar more than anything. Where will clubs fit in? I'd also hope there'd be a requirement that *all* provincial championships end at the same time, and that the only replays allowed are in Provincial Finals, All Ireland Semi Finals and Finals.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 04, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:09:51 PM
Wilfully ignoring the big fat limping elephant in the room as per usual.
Which is?
The Provincials, and the GAA hierarchy.
I know I seem to be in the minority on here, but I like the provincial championships. Offaly beating Longford, and losing to Westmeath, meant a lot, good and bad. I think they could be cleaned up, sped up and made more streamlined, but I still like them, and still hope to see Tipperary win a Munster Football at Senior Level. That's a real goal for these players.
Quick questions on this proposal?
What is the next stage in this process?
Does this have to go to congress now?
Are other proposals allowed to go forward?
Why is your man Duffy in this position?
As a reserve footballer, should I just retire now?
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 04, 2016, 03:23:33 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:20:00 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 04, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:09:51 PM
Wilfully ignoring the big fat limping elephant in the room as per usual.
Which is?
The Provincials, and the GAA hierarchy.
I know I seem to be in the minority on here, but I like the provincial championships. Offaly beating Longford, and losing to Westmeath, meant a lot, good and bad. I think they could be cleaned up, sped up and made more streamlined, but I still like them, and still hope to see Tipperary win a Munster Football at Senior Level. That's a real goal for these players.
Not the Provincials as a competition
per se, but their status as a straight route through to the business end of the Championship as a component part. This is a ham-fisted effort to address that (one assumes), that will actually make things worse introducing, as it does, two extra games for the last eight teams.
I think this is a reaction (as everything in the GAA appears to be) to the howling in the meeja about Kerry's 'unfair' route to an All Ireland Semi Final. In this scenario Kerry, (and Dublin I suppose) would have to play a few serious-ish games in the quarter final group before they made a semi final. So instead of Clare-Tipp-Clare it might be Clare-Tipp-Clare-Dublin-Donegal.
I don't mind this I have to say, but as I said, I'd shorten the provincials, and remove unnecessary replays.
Quite possibly AZ, but tackling the symptom yet again as opposed to the disease.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:42:18 PM
Quite possibly AZ, but tackling the symptom yet again as opposed to the disease.
Yeah, but we should be used to that at this stage. That's why I always have said that we need to define the problem before we define a solution. Otherwise you end up changing stuff and either causing more problems, or not solving the problem that others think is there.
Is the problem uneven matches early in the championship?
Is the problem the long season?
Is the problem the gap between matches?
Is the problem the effect on the club scene?
Is the problem the poor crowds?
Is the problem the style of football?
Is the problem the 'easy' provinces?
There's so much angst over so many things, it's a wonder there's a championship at all. Sometimes I think people forget how it was years ago.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 04, 2016, 03:46:52 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:42:18 PM
Quite possibly AZ, but tackling the symptom yet again as opposed to the disease.
Yeah, but we should be used to that at this stage. That's why I always have said that we need to define the problem before we define a solution. Otherwise you end up changing stuff and either causing more problems, or not solving the problem that others think is there.
Is the problem uneven matches early in the championship?
Is the problem the long season?
Is the problem the gap between matches?
Is the problem the effect on the club scene?
Is the problem the poor crowds?
Is the problem the style of football?
Is the problem the 'easy' provinces?
There's so much angst over so many things, it's a wonder there's a championship at all. Sometimes I think people forget how it was years ago.
I've said this before too....
we have to agree on 'the problem' before we can possibly agree on the solution
Fundamentally, the issue is that the Provincial paths are inequitable, and an anachronism that should be properly reworked so that they don't play such a central part in the Championship.
That's been a beef for a long time at this stage, and throwing in more games at the post-Provincials' juncture is just, well, typical.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 04, 2016, 03:23:33 PM
I know I seem to be in the minority on here, but I like the provincial championships. Offaly beating Longford, and losing to Westmeath, meant a lot, good and bad. I think they could be cleaned up, sped up and made more streamlined,
I too like the Provincials but need to be cleaned up etc as you say.
As Fear says they need to be made less an integral part of the AI Championship.
But 120 years of tradition, local rivalries, good crowds (at most) and the opportunity for big days for many Counties in small towns like Clones, Roscommon, Killarney etc on Provincial day can't just be dumped.
I would suggest that my proposal back on page 1 or 2 addresses the problem of Kerry just bouncing into the AI Championship while others have to fight their way there, makes the League more relevant, has a small link between the Provincials and the AI and gives time for Club Championships.
East Tyrone I presume this new proposal has been circulated to County Boards and Prov Councils to chew over and no doubt it's up to them (and the GPA) to back, reject or come up with alternatives for the 2017 Congress.
As for retiring - if what you call "reserve football" is the equivalent of our Junior B -are you not retired already? :D
I know I seem to be in the minority on here, but I like the provincial championships. Offaly beating Longford, and losing to Westmeath, meant a lot, good and bad. I think they could be cleaned up, sped up and made more streamlined, but I still like them, and still hope to see Tipperary win a Munster Football at Senior Level. That's a real goal for these players.
[/quote]
You are not in the minority countrywide. The provincial championships have a huge appeal for the players and general public. Certainly you will get players with a few provincial medals in their pocket who couldn't care less for another one, but they are the minority. For players from weaker counties( whose well-being is constantly being worried over but for whom the solutionseems to depend on them being exiled to lesser competitions) the prospect of winning a provincial final is more appealing than getting out of the group stages of a Champions league competition. The general public have no interest in a Champions League format. If its open draw then we are unlikely to see huge crowds travel from Tipp to play in Derry or Roscommon to Wexford. If seeded, it will just mean that the weaker counties are weeded out earlier.
Proponents of the Champions league format seem to base its proposed success on their mathematical ability to divide 32 by 8. Those who don't agree are deemed backward for failing to see the enormous potential generated by this mathematical formula. What they ignore is that entry to the Champions league is based on uneven "provincial" competitions with four teams from some leagues gaining direct admission based on their financial clout while the champions of another (ala Dundalk) have to play six games to get there. The income generated by many "provincial " competitions dwarves the money earned by the Champions League and the competition remains dominated by the big spenders.
So when we attempt to redraw the ALL-Ireland competitions lets keep in mind some basics
- ALL counties want access to the Senior Championship, no matter how long they have been without a win or in the bottom division of the league.
All counties (not just provincial councils) want to retain provincial competitions as they are the bread and butter (and sometimes the cake) providing the funds for development programmes etc locally.
Meaningful club competitions need to be catered for especially throughout the period from April to October.
Until a solution is found that can cater for all three factors above we are as well to stay with the system, that for all its faults, has served us well.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 04, 2016, 04:02:02 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 04, 2016, 03:23:33 PM
I know I seem to be in the minority on here, but I like the provincial championships. Offaly beating Longford, and losing to Westmeath, meant a lot, good and bad. I think they could be cleaned up, sped up and made more streamlined,
I too like the Provincials but need to be cleaned up etc as you say.
As Fear says they need to be made less an integral part of the AI Championship.
But 120 years of tradition, local rivalries, good crowds (at most) and the opportunity for big days for many Counties in small towns like Clones, Roscommon, Killarney etc on Provincial day can't just be dumped.
I would suggest that my proposal back on page 1 or 2 addresses the problem of Kerry just bouncing into the AI Championship while others have to fight their way there, makes the League more relevant, has a small link between the Provincials and the AI and gives time for Club Championships.
East Tyrone I presume this new proposal has been circulated to County Boards and Prov Councils to chew over and no doubt it's up to them (and the GPA) to back, reject or come up with alternatives for the 2017 Congress.
As for retiring - if what you call "reserve football" is the equivalent of our Junior B -are you not retired already? :D
Semi retired with the intent of playing as much games as possible before my knees give way :D
Usually the county team going well, means less games for purists like me haha.
Quote from: mrhardyannual on August 04, 2016, 04:12:10 PM
I know I seem to be in the minority on here, but I like the provincial championships. Offaly beating Longford, and losing to Westmeath, meant a lot, good and bad. I think they could be cleaned up, sped up and made more streamlined, but I still like them, and still hope to see Tipperary win a Munster Football at Senior Level. That's a real goal for these players.
You are not in the minority countrywide. The provincial championships have a huge appeal for the players and general public. Certainly you will get players with a few provincial medals in their pocket who couldn't care less for another one, but they are the minority. For players from weaker counties( whose well-being is constantly being worried over but for whom the solutionseems to depend on them being exiled to lesser competitions) the prospect of winning a provincial final is more appealing than getting out of the group stages of a Champions league competition. The general public have no interest in a Champions League format. If its open draw then we are unlikely to see huge crowds travel from Tipp to play in Derry or Roscommon to Wexford. If seeded, it will just mean that the weaker counties are weeded out earlier.
Proponents of the Champions league format seem to base its proposed success on their mathematical ability to divide 32 by 8. Those who don't agree are deemed backward for failing to see the enormous potential generated by this mathematical formula. What they ignore is that entry to the Champions league is based on uneven "provincial" competitions with four teams from some leagues gaining direct admission based on their financial clout while the champions of another (ala Dundalk) have to play six games to get there. The income generated by many "provincial " competitions dwarves the money earned by the Champions League and the competition remains dominated by the big spenders.
So when we attempt to redraw the ALL-Ireland competitions lets keep in mind some basics
- ALL counties want access to the Senior Championship, no matter how long they have been without a win or in the bottom division of the league.
All counties (not just provincial councils) want to retain provincial competitions as they are the bread and butter (and sometimes the cake) providing the funds for development programmes etc locally.
Meaningful club competitions need to be catered for especially throughout the period from April to October.
Until a solution is found that can cater for all three factors above we are as well to stay with the system, that for all its faults, has served us well.
[/quote]
You talk a lot of sense mrhardyannual and I'm not just talking about the bit in bold. The provincial structures have to be retained no matter what the rest of the solution is and the champions league format mightn't be all it's cracked up to be.
Congratulations to the Croker lads. If "increasing revenue" was the sole motivation of the founders of this idea then they have without doubt found the perfect solution. They've sacrificed nothing and yet managed to successfully increase the amount of times the top teams play each other in Croke Park and of course provided more matches between the big 6 for the TV companies to bid for.
From reading the complaints here the most prominent objections seem to be this.
1: Lack of time for club games/ too many IC games for top teams.
2: Structures which promote and favour those teams at the top.
The best solution for these problems would be an open draw straight knockout. That's ignoring the big issue of loss of revenue.
Another step towards semi-professionalism. Some are all for it (mainly the intercounty player's and younger player's) but it has the danger of diminishing the provincial championship, or maybe not. We'll have to see how it pans out.. If it means more money for the club's to put into development then good luck to them, might be the way forward.
Quote from: trileacman on August 04, 2016, 07:25:03 PM
Congratulations to the Croker lads. If "increasing revenue" was the sole motivation of the founders of this idea then they have without doubt found the perfect solution. They've sacrificed nothing and yet managed to successfully increase the amount of times the top teams play each other in Croke Park and of course provided more matches between the big 6 for the TV companies to bid for.
From reading the complaints here the most prominent objections seem to be this.
1: Lack of time for club games/ too many IC games for top teams.
2: Structures which promote and favour those teams at the top.
The best solution for these problems would be an open draw straight knockout. That's ignoring the big issue of loss of revenue.
On point 1 there is a lack of time for club games but there is also not anywhere near enough meaningful games being played at intercounty level, with far too much football being played in preseason and not enough in the summer. The GPA proposal rectifies this, the GAA's one will only widen the gap between the top teams and the rest. The likes of Carlow will train all year for the usual 2 beatings.
Quote from: BennyCake on August 03, 2016, 03:17:09 PM
Provincial c'ships are finished. As they aren't linked to Sam, it's just pointless.
I favour a 32 county open draw, FA cup style. No seeding.
I wish they'd do something quick though, people are leaving in their droves.
That would make too much sense.
It's not a bad plan, but the current system of knockout QFs is better than round robin QFs because we are still amateur.
People who proclaim round robin just haven't thought it through. In the the last round of games , what happens if:
- both teams are already out. Nobody would give a flying fig. A week or two to prepare for an utterly meaningless game , when the players could be back at their clubs. I'd love to see the ticket sales for this one!
- both teams already through. A shadow boxing contest just to decide who the semi final opponent will be. A waste of time
- a team already out versus a team needing a win. Automatic controversy about whether the team who are out are trying hard enough? How do you ensure they pick a proper team, and not just a completely experimental line up with an eye to next year?
The current system is by miles the best system in my opinion, but it may take a new system to come in for people to realise it. The imbalance of the provincials is the weakened in fairness. But we could go a way to solving it by allowing teams to move province if they want (not by force) like Galway in hurling
Quote from: Hound on August 04, 2016, 08:47:07 PM
It's not a bad plan, but the current system of knockout QFs is better than round robin QFs because we are still amateur.
People who proclaim round robin just haven't thought it through. In the the last round of games , what happens if:
- both teams are already out. Nobody would give a flying fig. A week or two to prepare for an utterly meaningless game , when the players could be back at their clubs. I'd love to see the ticket sales for this one!
- both teams already through. A shadow boxing contest just to decide who the semi final opponent will be. A waste of time
- a team already out versus a team needing a win. Automatic controversy about whether the team who are out are trying hard enough? How do you ensure they pick a proper team, and not just a completely experimental line up with an eye to next year?
The current system is by miles the best system in my opinion, but it may take a new system to come in for people to realise it. The imbalance of the provincials is the weakened in fairness. But we could go a way to solving it by allowing teams to move province if they want (not by force) like Galway in hurling
Can't agree with the current system being the best, it has a majority of fans, players and managers pissed off so it has to change. The round robin at the 1/4 final stage is ridiculous for the reasons you pointed out though. The GPA's round robin at the start of the championship is ideal though with 24 out of 32 teams progressing and benefits for finishing top. Division 4 teams would benefit from a home game against a top seed and will know that 1 win would be enough to get 4 championship games which will aid development.
The provincials would be downgraded somewhat but there is still silverware to play for and division 2 and 3 teams would have a massive incentive to really go for their provincial crown to become a top seed in the group stage.
The league would also benefit a little from the GPA proposal.
Downside would be an end to dual players and the Hurling calender might need tweaking to facilitate the extra games in early summer.
A ways to grab more money pile of shite idea! Round Robin my hole. The provincials are already mostly reduced to a weeks bragging rights. How the FcUK does playing round robin instead of a knockout increase the excitement? It doesn't. GAA money-grabbing fffuuucckkeerrsss
The only change needed to sort out the club calendar is by simply reducing the length of time the championship takes - all quarter finals over 1-2 weekends and the same with semi finals.
In fairness, eliminating draws and pulling forward the final by two weeks have been proposed and rejected by congress - both would have made a big difference to fixture congestion
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on August 04, 2016, 09:01:43 PM
Quote from: Hound on August 04, 2016, 08:47:07 PM
It's not a bad plan, but the current system of knockout QFs is better than round robin QFs because we are still amateur.
People who proclaim round robin just haven't thought it through. In the the last round of games , what happens if:
- both teams are already out. Nobody would give a flying fig. A week or two to prepare for an utterly meaningless game , when the players could be back at their clubs. I'd love to see the ticket sales for this one!
- both teams already through. A shadow boxing contest just to decide who the semi final opponent will be. A waste of time
- a team already out versus a team needing a win. Automatic controversy about whether the team who are out are trying hard enough? How do you ensure they pick a proper team, and not just a completely experimental line up with an eye to next year?
The current system is by miles the best system in my opinion, but it may take a new system to come in for people to realise it. The imbalance of the provincials is the weakened in fairness. But we could go a way to solving it by allowing teams to move province if they want (not by force) like Galway in hurling
Can't agree with the current system being the best, it has a majority of fans, players and managers pissed off so it has to change. The round robin at the 1/4 final stage is ridiculous for the reasons you pointed out though. The GPA's round robin at the start of the championship is ideal though with 24 out of 32 teams progressing and benefits for finishing top. Division 4 teams would benefit from a home game against a top seed and will know that 1 win would be enough to get 4 championship games which will aid development.
The provincials would be downgraded somewhat but there is still silverware to play for and division 2 and 3 teams would have a massive incentive to really go for their provincial crown to become a top seed in the group stage.
The league would also benefit a little from the GPA proposal.
Downside would be an end to dual players and the Hurling calender might need tweaking to facilitate the extra games in early summer.
I quite like the GPA's idea but I think the league would need to be curtailed to allow time for club games.
I don't agree that the current system pisses off the majority. Apart from the A/B thing being unbalance and the odd six day turnaround I think it's quite good, relative to the other options.
The ones that don't like it are the media who can't wait until the August Bank Holiday so that they can do some real analysis.
When Duffy was elected president I have no doubt that he intended to have the club game at the top of the agenda but when he went into meet his buddies they must have said to him "now Padraig none of this club shite, there is no money in that you know" and he has been turned. Nothing he has done since becoming president has helped the club game. This new proposal will further diminish it. Do the powers in Croke park know the state of the club game? County boards don't even care about the club game in their own county ffs!
There is no chance of clubs being put to the forefront as that will not generate money. Money is all that matters. The only reason they are making these proposals now is because attendances are down and Revenue therefore too.
In the next 20/30 years more and more clubs will fold.......there will be a large drop in adult numbers playing gaa due to lack of games.
I would not be surprised if other counties become like Kilkenny and don't field football teams......eg Waterford, WIcklow, Louth..........
Why not play the provincial championships and an all Ireland in an open draw format? Oh I know because other ideas would generate more money.........
Paraic Duffy is not the president of the GAA.
The GAA family has spoken ''''''''''''''Things need to change'''''''''''' GAA Hierarchy ''''''' You want change mother f**ker we'll give you change.... eat that bitches.
Full time workers working for each other, to the detriment of its life blood and founders .... Geogie boy Orwell never been so relevant. Time for the people to take back their game or else we will turn into every other capitalist monopoly Murdoch has got his hands on, where business is key success and development dont matter.
Im glad they realise there is a problem that needs fixing
Think its a good enough start, a step in the right direction
So the solution to the problem and unfairness in the structures is to keep things mostly the same but give the top 8 teams more games so that they can get more more and more experience so that they can get even better and the gap can widen. The rest can play their games a bit earlier so that their best players can head of to America a bit earlier so that their club scene can continue with lesser players and little chance for development. Great idea.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:54:18 PM
Fundamentally, the issue is that the Provincial paths are inequitable, and an anachronism that should be properly reworked so that they don't play such a central part in the Championship.
That's been a beef for a long time at this stage, and throwing in more games at the post-Provincials' juncture is just, well, typical.
The biggest failure of Croke Park is pandering to this idea that the All Ireland Championship starts with the first round of the Provincial Championship.
Not challenging media or nailing down the message that they are completely separate competitions in their own right is leading to this idea that Provincial Championship is a just a matter for course.
This nonsense where a losing team is automatically linked to 'the back door' is a joke. If you lose in your provincial Championship it should be treated like a loss in it's own right. Mayo, Donegal, Monaghan, Roscommon etc should be seen as losers unless or until they win a QF.
Rolling one competition into the other weakens the Provincial Championship.
If the Provincial Championship and Qualifiers were played early in the year with an 8 week gap before the All Ireland Championship you'd see a mush better approach to the Provincial Championship by teams, spectators and media.
Galway will not get the Credit they deserve for winning Connacht because they lost in the first round of a different competition.
Much of this problem lays with sponsorship too. Each Competition should have separate deals with no overlapping. It would encourage the sponsor to promote their specific competition.
If a sponsor takes on a Provincial Championship and the All Ireland Championship they should not be allowed to promote the latter until the previous has run it's course.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 04, 2016, 03:54:18 PM
Fundamentally, the issue is that the Provincial paths are inequitable, and an anachronism that should be properly reworked so that they don't play such a central part in the Championship.
That's been a beef for a long time at this stage, and throwing in more games at the post-Provincials' juncture is just, well, typical.
The biggest failure of Croke Park is pandering to this idea that the All Ireland Championship starts with the first round of the Provincial Championship.
Not challenging media or nailing down the message that they are completely separate competitions in their own right is leading to this idea that Provincial Championship is a just a matter for course.
This nonsense where a losing team is automatically linked to 'the back door' is a joke. If you lose in your provincial Championship it should be treated like a loss in it's own right. Mayo, Donegal, Monaghan, Roscommon etc should be seen as losers unless or until they win a QF.
Rolling one competition into the other weakens the Provincial Championship.
If the Provincial Championship and Qualifiers were played early in the year with an 8 week gap before the All Ireland Championship you'd see a mush better approach to the Provincial Championship by teams, spectators and media.
Galway will not get the Credit they deserve for winning Connacht because they lost in the first round of a different competition.
Much of this problem lays with sponsorship too. Each Competition should have separate deals with no overlapping. It would encourage the sponsor to promote their specific competition.
If a sponsor takes on a Provincial Championship and the All Ireland Championship they should not be allowed to promote the latter until the previous has run it's course.
Totally agree with this.
Why not play the league in Jan-March, Provincial Championships Apr-May, All Ireland Open Draw Jun-Jul and then leave Aug-Dec for club football only. That way clubs could start their pre-season in about May, play pre-season competitions in Jun, start league in July, build league up in August, play club championship in Sept/Oct, All Ireland club championship in Nov/Dec
Quote from: Throw ball on August 05, 2016, 08:01:42 AM
So the solution to the problem and unfairness in the structures is to keep things mostly the same but give the top 8 teams more games so that they can get more more and more experience so that they can get even better and the gap can widen. The rest can play their games a bit earlier so that their best players can head of to America a bit earlier so that their club scene can continue with lesser players and little chance for development. Great idea.
Let's get the little people out of the way early so the big boys can have the playground all to themselves for longer.
This is what I mean by defining the problem. Inter County players want a change to the format, but they want everyone to be in the All Ireland proper, no B championships etc. A large portion of the media seem to want a change to the format that allows the big guns to play each other more often. (This is obviously because it's easier to sell content about Kerry v Tyrone than Kerry v Waterford).
Then other people want a change to the format for other reasons, like uneven provincial setups etc.
Until we have consensus on what the issue(s) is/are, then any proposed solution will have a huge amount of detractors, and also will likely end up making some problems worse or introduce new ones.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2016, 09:01:03 AM
Quote from: Throw ball on August 05, 2016, 08:01:42 AM
So the solution to the problem and unfairness in the structures is to keep things mostly the same but give the top 8 teams more games so that they can get more more and more experience so that they can get even better and the gap can widen. The rest can play their games a bit earlier so that their best players can head of to America a bit earlier so that their club scene can continue with lesser players and little chance for development. Great idea.
Let's get the little people out of the way early so the big boys can have the playground all to themselves for longer.
isn't that the way most competitions are run off?
FA Cup
Champions League
European Rugby
World Cup soccer
Those 4 competitions are from professional money driven sports that have little or no connection with grassroots. There is no chance for exams that a player with a Leinster junior league side could play champions league with dundalk and go back to Leinster junior league a few weeks later.
We're always told gaa is unique in that regard. Your neighbour and club mate can get to play in the biggest days. This proposal is another break in that unique link. It shows disregard to clubs and lesser counties
Quote from: Rossfan on Today at 09:01:03 AM
Quote from: Throw ball on Today at 08:01:42 AM
So the solution to the problem and unfairness in the structures is to keep things mostly the same but give the top 8 teams more games so that they can get more more and more experience so that they can get even better and the gap can widen. The rest can play their games a bit earlier so that their best players can head of to America a bit earlier so that their club scene can continue with lesser players and little chance for development. Great idea.
Let's get the little people out of the way early so the big boys can have the playground all to themselves for longer.
isn't that the way most competitions are run off?
FA Cup
Champions League
European Rugby
World Cup soccer
That's what some people see as the problem manfromdelmonte.......the GAA are going down the global sports route and chasing the pound. Is this what the AMATEUR GAA is supposed to be about?
We have indigenous games to be very proud of but we are the only country that play them (Irish people play them around the world). We are the only country that can protect the games, look after the people who play them. If we continue to go down this route how many counties are going to be serious football counties in 20 years time?
the sooner a tiered football championship the better. alot of counties will oppose this but thats life. long term they will learn the value of this. hurling counties opposed it at the start but if you look at the reactions and joy of the winners of the ring, rackard and meagher competitions you,ll see what it means.
Ok here's one:
NFL changes to three divisions of ten, ten and twelve.
Each Division is then split, i.e. 1A & 1B, 2A & 2B, 3A & 3B.
That means that Divisions 1 and 2 have four league games each and Division 3 has five games.
The winner of A plays the winner of B in the final (because you always need a final in GAA).
In 2016, the first round of Division 3 games would start on 31 January with the other two divisions starting the following week.
Play five weeks in a row and the final the week after. Maybe have a one week break after four in case of postponed games.
League finished on the weekend of 14th March.
The next nine weeks should be dedicated to club leauge games, up to and including the weekend of 15th May. Have your league finished by that weekend or end up playing it in the winter.
Two weeks later (29th May) all preliminary rounds in provincial championships are played.
June 5th - All Quarter Finals are played
June 19th - All Semi-Finals are played
July 3rd - All Finals are played.
I would then skip to what Rossfan proposed, or what he proposed last year:
July 10th -First found of AI Championship - Eight Division 4 teams v Division 3 teams
July 17th - Eight winners of Round 1 play v Eight Division 2 teams
July 24th - Eight Winners of Round 2 play v Eight Provincial finalists*
July 31st - Quarter Finals - Open Draw?
Aug 14th - Two All-Ireland Semi Finals
Sept 4th - All-Ireland Final
Obviously counties can begin their club championships whenever they're knocked out of the AI series and the provincial finalists can play some club championships in the knowledge that they won't be playing until July 24th.
Club players know when their league campaign starts and finishes.
*Assumes that eight provincial finalists are from Division 1. If this is not the case then the seeding for when the various Divisions enter the championship is adjusted by pushing a Division 1 team that doesn't reach the provincial final down a level.
Could people tell me where my proposal falls down?
Its not bad actually.
I prefer it to the gaa proposal
Are there 3 divisions or 4 though?
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on August 05, 2016, 10:21:46 AM
Its not bad actually.
I prefer it to the gaa proposal
Are there 3 divisions or 4 though?
Shit :-[
Well you can still rank teams accordingly.
Substitute "Bottom 8 ranked league teams" for "Division 4 teams" and so on.
Quote from: Esmarelda on August 05, 2016, 10:13:55 AM
The next nine weeks should be dedicated to club leauge games, up to and including the weekend of 15th May. Have your league finished by that weekend or end up playing it in the winter.
The problem with this is that you'll have county panels bursting themselves at training several times a week with no match for 9 weeks. Managers will fill the void with meaningless challenge matches which will in turn disrupt club fixtures.
Also a 4 or 5 game league is way too short. I'd actually have a longer league and play it every second weekend from the start of February to the end of May with every other weekend dedicated to club games.
By the end of May, every club team would have played 8 or 9 league games.
Abandon the concept of league finals and start the championship with a rash of games on the June weekend, with the provincials finishing by mid-July.
Plenty of time from there on to play qualifiers, club championships and All Ireland series.
Quote from: Esmarelda on August 05, 2016, 10:13:55 AM
Ok here's one:
NFL changes to three divisions of ten, ten and twelve.
Each Division is then split, i.e. 1A & 1B, 2A & 2B, 3A & 3B.
That means that Divisions 1 and 2 have four league games each and Division 3 has five games.
The winner of A plays the winner of B in the final (because you always need a final in GAA).
In 2016, the first round of Division 3 games would start on 31 January with the other two divisions starting the following week.
Play five weeks in a row and the final the week after. Maybe have a one week break after four in case of postponed games.
League finished on the weekend of 14th March.
The next nine weeks should be dedicated to club leauge games, up to and including the weekend of 15th May. Have your league finished by that weekend or end up playing it in the winter.
Two weeks later (29th May) all preliminary rounds in provincial championships are played.
June 5th - All Quarter Finals are played
June 19th - All Semi-Finals are played
July 3rd - All Finals are played.
I would then skip to what Rossfan proposed, or what he proposed last year:
July 10th -First found of AI Championship - Eight Division 4 teams v Division 3 teams
July 17th - Eight winners of Round 1 play v Eight Division 2 teams
July 24th - Eight Winners of Round 2 play v Eight Provincial finalists*
July 31st - Quarter Finals - Open Draw?
Aug 14th - Two All-Ireland Semi Finals
Sept 4th - All-Ireland Final
Obviously counties can begin their club championships whenever they're knocked out of the AI series and the provincial finalists can play some club championships in the knowledge that they won't be playing until July 24th.
Club players know when their league campaign starts and finishes.
*Assumes that eight provincial finalists are from Division 1. If this is not the case then the seeding for when the various Divisions enter the championship is adjusted by pushing a Division 1 team that doesn't reach the provincial final down a level.
Could people tell me where my proposal falls down?
So club players finish the league on the 15th of May and have absolutely no games until their county is knocked out of the AI - any time between the 10th of July and 4th September? At least in the current system they have some league games in between inter county championship matches.
At least the people on here are thinking of the club game.......more than can be said about those running the game..........I like Colm Collins comments on the proposals.
Maybe a small tweak to the existing structure would address the issue of a long drawn out championship, which the players seem to hate. Also by linking the league performances directly to the Provincial championships, you would rewards progress in the league in a tangible way.
You could shorten the whole season too if you wanted, and make the games be much more regular for everyone.
Run off the League, with no League semi finals in Division 1. Run them off in 8 straight weeks, including the League Finals over a single weekend Saturday and Sunday.
Tie in your provincial seedings with the final league positions. So if you are the highest placed team in your province, you are a #1 seed.
Ensure all provincial semi finals and finals are played very close together. No long drawn out championships. No replays except in Provincial Final. If draw after extra time, and appetite for a sudden death result is not there then replay earlier rounds the next week. Rounds run every two weeks. The largest province has 11 teams, the smallest has 6. There should be no reason why the entire provincial championships can't be run off a lot more efficiently.
Incorporate the open draw for the qualifiers as outlined above.
Play the quarter finals over one weekend.
If we did it in 2016, it might have looked like this.
League runs February 21st, and Finishes up on April 17th. 7 straight weeks, followed by a gap of a week, followed by league finals on the 16th/17th of April.
Leinster Draw - Dublin Seed 1 ,Meath Seed 2, Laois Seed 3, Kildare Seed 4, Offaly Seed 5, Longford Seed 6, Westmeath Seed 7, Louth Seed 8, Wexford Seed 9, Carlow Seed 10, Wicklow Seed 11.
Munster Draw - Kerry Seed 1, Cork Seed 2, Clare Seed 3, Tipperary Seed 4, Limerick Seed 5, Waterford Seed 6.
Connacht Draw - Roscommon Seed 1, Mayo Seed 2, Galway Seed 3, Sligo Seed 4, Leitrim Seed 5, London Seed 6, NEw York (?) Seed 7.
Ulster Draw - Donegal Seed 1, Monaghan Seed 2, Down Seed 3, Tyrone Seed 4, Cavan Seed 5, Fermanagh Seed 6, Derry Seed 7, Armagh Seed 8, Antrim Seed 9.
Provincial Calendars, (All on Alternating Weekends).
Week 1 (7th/8th May) Leinster Preliminary Round. Seed 8 v Seed 9. Seed 7 v Seed 10. Seed 6 v Seed 11.
Ulster Preliminary Round. Seed 8 v Seed 9.
Week 2 (14th/15th May) Connacht Quarter Final. Seed 1 Bye. Seed 2 v Seed 7. Seed 3 v Seed 6. Seed 4 v Seed 5.
Munster Quarter Final. Seed 1 Bye. Seed 2 Bye. Seed 3 v Seed 6. Seed 4 v Seed 5.
Week 3 (21st/22nd May) Leinster Quarter Final. Seed 1 v Seed 8/9. Seed 2 v Seed 7/10. Seed 3 v Seed 6/11. Seed 4 v Seed 5.
Ulster Quarter Final. Seed 1 v Seed 8/9. Seed 2 v Seed 7. Seed 3 v Seed 6. Seed 4 v Seed 5.
Week 4 (28th/29th May) Connacht Semi Finals. Seed 1 v Seed 4/5. Seed 2/7 v Seed 3/6.
Munster Semi Finals. Seed 1 v Seed 4/5. Seed 2 v Seed 3/6.
Week 5 (June 4th/5th) Leinster Semi Finals. Seed 1/8/9 v Seed 4/5. Seed 2/7/10 v Seed 3/6.
Ulster Semi Finals. Seed 1/8/9 v Seed 4/5. Seed 2/7 v Seed 3/6.
Week 6 (June 11th/12th) Connacht Final
Munster Final
Week 7 (June 18th/19th) Leinster Final
Ulster Final
The All Ireland Qualifiers would run in a lag behind them then, in line with Duffy's suggestion.
Round 1 - Teams who did not make a provincial semi final. (June 4th 5th)
Round 2 - Including Teams who lost Provincial Semi Final. (June 18th 19th)
Round 3 - To bring to 4 Qualifiers ( June 25th/26th)
Round 4 - Including Provincial Final Losers (July 2nd/3rd)
All Ireland Quarter Finals - Weekend of July 9th/10th.
All Ireland Semi Finals - Weekend of July 23rd/24th.
All Ireland Final - August 13th/14th.
This would NOT eliminate the strong v weak games.
This would NOT allow dual players
This would NOT give any more games
This WOULD shorten the season
This WOULD reward league performance
This WOULD retain the provincial championships.
This WOULD allow the latest Club championship to start in late August.
I would also say that County League games have to run in parallel, and must be run without county players while the Inter County season is in flow. Individual County Boards could then decide to either run their Championship when the county team is eliminated (which will be a lot earlier in most cases) or to have a fixed calendar starting from mid August.
Quote from: OgraAnDun on August 05, 2016, 10:30:25 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on August 05, 2016, 10:13:55 AM
Ok here's one:
NFL changes to three divisions of ten, ten and twelve.
Each Division is then split, i.e. 1A & 1B, 2A & 2B, 3A & 3B.
That means that Divisions 1 and 2 have four league games each and Division 3 has five games.
The winner of A plays the winner of B in the final (because you always need a final in GAA).
In 2016, the first round of Division 3 games would start on 31 January with the other two divisions starting the following week.
Play five weeks in a row and the final the week after. Maybe have a one week break after four in case of postponed games.
League finished on the weekend of 14th March.
The next nine weeks should be dedicated to club leauge games, up to and including the weekend of 15th May. Have your league finished by that weekend or end up playing it in the winter.
Two weeks later (29th May) all preliminary rounds in provincial championships are played.
June 5th - All Quarter Finals are played
June 19th - All Semi-Finals are played
July 3rd - All Finals are played.
I would then skip to what Rossfan proposed, or what he proposed last year:
July 10th -First found of AI Championship - Eight Division 4 teams v Division 3 teams
July 17th - Eight winners of Round 1 play v Eight Division 2 teams
July 24th - Eight Winners of Round 2 play v Eight Provincial finalists*
July 31st - Quarter Finals - Open Draw?
Aug 14th - Two All-Ireland Semi Finals
Sept 4th - All-Ireland Final
Obviously counties can begin their club championships whenever they're knocked out of the AI series and the provincial finalists can play some club championships in the knowledge that they won't be playing until July 24th.
Club players know when their league campaign starts and finishes.
*Assumes that eight provincial finalists are from Division 1. If this is not the case then the seeding for when the various Divisions enter the championship is adjusted by pushing a Division 1 team that doesn't reach the provincial final down a level.
Could people tell me where my proposal falls down?
So club players finish the league on the 15th of May and have absolutely no games until their county is knocked out of the AI - any time between the 10th of July and 4th September? At least in the current system they have some league games in between inter county championship matches.
The majority of teams will be knocked out in July (obviously) and the clubs of the provincial winners have a window, albeit small, where they can play before their counties become involved again.
Is it not better for club players to have a structured season rather than waiting and seeing, although I know that exists here to an extent too.
Lads is it not clear from the fact that everyone has an opinion and an alternative structure that there is no hope that everyone will be happy.
Just one thing is often thrown out is that the GAA overlords are to blame for all this and they are only looking after themselves but the players and those playing often don't agree with many of the other proposals either.
Last year I got chatting to a player from a county that if you described as 'weaker' you would be doing them a service.
He said at a GPA meeting it was a mess with the likes of his county happy enough to scrap provincials while Kerry and Cork lads protested. As he said at the time it's all well and good for them who play two games and are in
Then the Ulster lads still have the prestige of their province to win so they don't want it scrapped, even though it hinders them the most in ANY format where the provincial championship is kept.
The notion of a second tier isn't something the players are keen on either, even though at club level lads are happy to play at their level without any complaints. They accept it and try to move up.
Finally this idea that the GAA baddies are selling out the club man is also cack. The county manager calls the shots. Pauric Duffy doesn't shut down club championship in most counties during the year. He doesn't deny clubs of their best players while they play shite challenge games and go on trips away with the county.
If county boards get a grip on their dictators that will help the club man. Then a master fixture plan will help the whole thing. No proposal will ever get even 60% approval with so many passionate stakeholders but at least it is being discussed again.
Is there any hope in hell these manic proposals wont go through??
In the ideal world ( where ever the fk we might find that) the Inter County Championship would reach Qtr Final stage as it dies niw by 1st August while Club Championships would reach Semi Final stage by 1st September.
To achieve that you'd have to have some weekend's in June/July/ Aug set in stone for Club Championships.
The proposal to have AISFs played the same weekend in both football and Hurley stuff is a good step which can free 2 August weekends for Club Championships exclusively .
If my 4 Club weekends were set in stone firstly we can then look at new structures and timetables etc for the IC competitions.
PS I suppose bringing back the oul' pre Christmas NFL games is a total non runner ? :o
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2016, 11:38:41 AM
In the ideal world ( where ever the fk we might find that) the Inter County Championship would reach Qtr Final stage as it dies niw by 1st August while Club Championships would reach Semi Final stage by 1st September.
Is there any need to rush club championships to have them almost over by 1 September? I don't think there is.
Quote from: five points on August 05, 2016, 11:48:01 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 05, 2016, 11:38:41 AM
In the ideal world ( where ever the fk we might find that) the Inter County Championship would reach Qtr Final stage as it dies niw by 1st August while Club Championships would reach Semi Final stage by 1st September.
Is there any need to rush club championships to have them almost over by 1 September? I don't think there is.
Players like playing in good weather and long evenings. Why must club players just accept they'll be playing in muck and shite in November and December?
I agree, but the end of september would be fine, giving another 4 weeeks
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 05, 2016, 11:49:54 AM
Players like playing in good weather and long evenings. Why must club players just accept they'll be playing in muck and shite in November and December?
We were talking about September, not November and December. :)
You want to have your Co Finals in September to have some chance of middling weather and pitches.
Or do we have to wait for the Yanks to return?
Quote from: five points on August 05, 2016, 11:55:20 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 05, 2016, 11:49:54 AM
Players like playing in good weather and long evenings. Why must club players just accept they'll be playing in muck and shite in November and December?
We were talking about September, not November and December. :)
Yeah, but provincial club championships happen too. The earlier the county championships are over, the sooner the provincial club championships could be on. You could aim to have your provincials over in October if the County Championships were done in September.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 05, 2016, 11:58:47 AM
Yeah, but provincial club championships happen too. The earlier the county championships are over, the sooner the provincial club championships could be on. You could aim to have your provincials over in October if the County Championships were done in September.
Sorry, and this might be heresy, but I'd scrap the provincial club championships before I'd be prepared to shoehorn club championships into being almost finished by 1 September.
There's no logic in leaving 90% of club players idle in September and October to suit the 5% who end up winning county medals.
Just to chime in I think the gaa proposal is like a bad compromise between staying the same and outright change. It's a really bad idea.
Just go for a straight knock out with an open draw or World Cup format. We know it works, people understand it, it's fair and it's simple.
I wonder if you could move the league to the summer and run it alongside the championship, that way every county gets multiple games in the summer and frees up the winter for players to have a break. I haven't worked out the practicalities but just a thought
Quote from: thejuice on August 05, 2016, 12:42:48 PM
Just to chime in I think the gaa proposal is like a bad compromise between staying the same and outright change. It's a really bad idea.
Just go for a straight knock out with an open draw or World Cup format. We know it works, people understand it, it's fair and it's simple.
I wonder if you could move the league to the summer and run it alongside the championship, that way every county gets multiple games in the summer and frees up the winter for players to have a break. I haven't worked out the practicalities but just a thought
It will not work for a sport based on local rivalries. Too many seem too willing to ignore that simple fact that resigns the idea to the dust bin.
Ok here is a different suggestion.
Provincial championships are compressed and played off on weekly (May & June) basis as suggested
giving us 4 provincial winners.
EVERYONE else is entered into the qualifier system (28 teams)
the 28 teams are seeded 1-28 by that years league position.
The bottom 8 play in a preliminary qualifier round
Qualifier round 1 is then played with the remaining 24 teams (again using a seeded draw, #1 v #24 etc)
That gives us 12 qualifier teams to join the 4 provincial winners in the last 16.
the provincial winners are the now top 4 seeds(ordered by league position) and are guaranteed home advantage for this round.
The remaining 12 are again seeded by league position and again the draw is 1 v16 etc
Knockout then until the final.
so using 2016 as a worked example
Tyrone,galway,Dublin, kerry provincial champions progress to the last 16 and are seeded
#1 dublin
#2 Kerry
#3 Tyrone
#4 galway
remaining teams are seeded due to league position and preliminary qualifier draw is made
(notional winners in bold for purposed of example)
Antrim V London
Louth V Leitrim
Wexford v Waterford
Carlow v Wicklow
round 1 qualifier draw is made
(again based on league position seedings)
Roscommon v wicklow
Donegal v wexford
Mayo v Louth
Monaghan v Antrim
Cork V Limerick
Down V Westmeath
Cavan VTipperary
Fermanagh V Sligo
Meath V Longford
Derry V Offally
Armagh VClare
Laois V Kildare
we now have a last 16 seeded again to give:
A)Dublin v westmeath
B)Kerry v Tipperary
C)Tyrone V Clare
D)Galway v Laois
E)Roscommon v Derry
F)Donegal v meath
G)Mayo v Fermanagh
H)Monaghan V Cork
then:
A V H
B VG
C V F
D V E
Then open draw for the semi finals.
I haven't read any of the alternatives posted in the past two or three pages here but there are a few realities I think -
If you continue to link the provincials to the All Ireland then any format will be less than ideal as you're starting with unequal geography based groups.
It's nonsense to say only the provincials guarantee local derbies or that local derbies are important. Kerry supporters would rather watch their team play Mayo, Dublin or Tyrone rather than Limerick, Clare or Waterford. Provincials prevent as many local rivalries as they promote.
Linking the league to the championship is the key to any good format. It gives everyone lots of competitive games and brings the games to local venues.
All teams need to start the year with a chance of winning Sam, even though most haven't the ability to do so.
The season needs to be shorter but more intense.
The best of the weather in Ireland is March to October so fit in the season in that period with November to January largely an off season.
Quote from: Syferus on August 05, 2016, 12:50:52 PM
Quote from: thejuice on August 05, 2016, 12:42:48 PM
Just to chime in I think the gaa proposal is like a bad compromise between staying the same and outright change. It's a really bad idea.
Just go for a straight knock out with an open draw or World Cup format. We know it works, people understand it, it's fair and it's simple.
I wonder if you could move the league to the summer and run it alongside the championship, that way every county gets multiple games in the summer and frees up the winter for players to have a break. I haven't worked out the practicalities but just a thought
It will not work for a sport based on local rivalries. Too many seem too willing to ignore that simple fact that resigns the idea to the dust bin.
I'm not ignoring that fact. Local derbies would still happen in an open draw system and that they occur less frequently might make them more intriguing. The provinces were not designed for running a fair sports competition. As much as I love tradition and history at some point you need to assess it is run its course.
Quote from: thejuice on August 05, 2016, 12:42:48 PM
I wonder if you could move the league to the summer and run it alongside the championship, that way every county gets multiple games in the summer and frees up the winter for players to have a break. I haven't worked out the practicalities but just a thought
They tried something like that with the hurling league in 97 I think but it was quickly abandoned.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on August 05, 2016, 01:09:49 PM
Ok here is a different suggestion.
Provincial championships are compressed and played off on weekly (May & June) basis as suggested
giving us 4 provincial winners.
EVERYONE else is entered into the qualifier system (28 teams)
the 28 teams are seeded 1-28 by that years league position.
The bottom 8 play in a preliminary qualifier round
Qualifier round 1 is then played with the remaining 24 teams (again using a seeded draw, #1 v #24 etc)
That gives us 12 qualifier teams to join the 4 provincial winners in the last 16.
the provincial winners are the now top 4 seeds(ordered by league position) and are guaranteed home advantage for this round.
The remaining 12 are again seeded by league position and again the draw is 1 v16 etc
Knockout then until the final.
so using 2016 as a worked example
Tyrone,galway,Dublin, kerry provincial champions progress to the last 16 and are seeded
#1 dublin
#2 Kerry
#3 Tyrone
#4 galway
remaining teams are seeded due to league position and preliminary qualifier draw is made
(notional winners in bold for purposed of example)
Antrim V London
Louth V Leitrim
Wexford v Waterford
Carlow v Wicklow
round 1 qualifier draw is made
(again based on league position seedings)
Roscommon v wicklow
Donegal v wexford
Mayo v Louth
Monaghan v Antrim
Cork V Limerick
Down V Westmeath
Cavan VTipperary
Fermanagh V Sligo
Meath V Longford
Derry V Offally
Armagh VClare
Laois V Kildare
we now have a last 16 seeded again to give:
A)Dublin v westmeath
B)Kerry v Tipperary
C)Tyrone V Clare
D)Galway v Laois
E)Roscommon v Derry
F)Donegal v meath
G)Mayo v Fermanagh
H)Monaghan V Cork
then:
A V H
B VG
C V F
D V E
Then open draw for the semi finals.
I like the idea in theory but you'd need to work it into a calendar that includes the league and gaps for clubs to see if it's feasible.
The majority of people I have spoken to have expressed bewilderment at these proposals. I don't think there is a cat in hells chance of them getting through as they do nothing to address the fixtures problem and the unfairness of the chship structure. The general feeling is that the current system would be better than what they propose as they will use this minor change to try and end the debate about complete REFORM which is what is needed....not a sideways tweak. The hierarchy are getting further and further away from the grassroots disillusionment with the association and its lack of willingness to address the problems to retain the status quo. Too many at the top are driven by commercialism and acting in their own self interest. Who actually made up this committee that put forward these proposals, they are like something that was concocted after meeting in a room for an hour? Some of the proposals put forward on this message board and in newspapers columns are far more radical and in touch with what is needed than this 'committee' who presumably spent a considerable period of time putting the proposal together. The mind boggles.
Quote from: Zulu on August 05, 2016, 01:27:34 PM
I haven't read any of the alternatives posted in the past two or three pages here but there are a few realities I think -
If you continue to link the provincials to the All Ireland then any format will be less than ideal as you're starting with unequal geography based groups.
It's nonsense to say only the provincials guarantee local derbies or that local derbies are important. Kerry supporters would rather watch their team play Mayo, Dublin or Tyrone rather than Limerick, Clare or Waterford. Provincials prevent as many local rivalries as they promote.
Linking the league to the championship is the key to any good format. It gives everyone lots of competitive games and brings the games to local venues.
All teams need to start the year with a chance of winning Sam, even though most haven't the ability to do so.
The season needs to be shorter but more intense.
The best of the weather in Ireland is March to October so fit in the season in that period with November to January largely an off season.
I would be delighted with any system that would achieve these points and hopefully these are the main goals of everyone involved.
Hopefully we will eventually get to the point where the intercounty season is from March to July and the club season is from June to Oct or something similar!!
Why do county competitions have to run from January to September? Get rid of the pre season tournaments. I would love to sit on a committee and thrash this out for a week in the Croke Park Hotel. I could make up the committee from people who post on here and I would take pro county football people and pro club football people. I am pretty sure we could come up with a better plan that would suit everyone. And do you know why? Because we wouldn't have to think about the financial impact of our proposals but rather what would be good for the future of the game........and in the long run that would be financially better anyway!
Quote from: The Trap on August 05, 2016, 03:25:46 PM
Get rid of the pre season tournaments.
What harm do they do?
Quote from: The Trap on Today at 03:25:46 PM
Get rid of the pre season tournaments.
What harm do they do?
They take up at least a month of the calendar - a calendar that would need about 14 months in it!!!!!!
Quote from: The Trap on August 05, 2016, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: The Trap on Today at 03:25:46 PM
Get rid of the pre season tournaments.
What harm do they do?
They take up at least a month of the calendar - a calendar that would need about 14 months in it!!!!!!
So you'd expect county teams to start the national league cold, with no warm-up games? If you don't have the McKenna/O'Byrne etc Cups, we'll have teams traipsing the country looking for challenge matches. Which amounts to pretty much the same thing.
Quote from: five points on August 05, 2016, 04:21:22 PM
Quote from: The Trap on August 05, 2016, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: The Trap on Today at 03:25:46 PM
Get rid of the pre season tournaments.
What harm do they do?
They take up at least a month of the calendar - a calendar that would need about 14 months in it!!!!!!
So you'd expect county teams to start the national league cold, with no warm-up games? If you don't have the McKenna/O'Byrne etc Cups, we'll have teams traipsing the country looking for challenge matches. Which amounts to pretty much the same thing.
Not at all. Sure you need the challenge matches to prepare for the McKenna Cup!
My suggestion is to keep the provincial championships, but after the provincial championships combine 2 provinces
Leinster & Connacht consist of 17 counties
Munster and Ulster consist of 15 counties (Add London and New York) and its even.
Have a round robin in each of the combinations (with groups seeded according to provincial and league performances)
The top 4 from each them make it through to the quarter finals.
Haven't thought it through in detail as to how the seeding would work, how many matches etc, but its just a quick idea
Five points.........you are exactly the type of person who I would love to get in a room. You want time for counties to pay pre season tournaments, drawn out provincial championships, back door games, replays, all Ireland series etc because all you care about is the county game. You don't know what it takes to run a club, to play for a club, to support a club........
I on the other hand see both sides. To me the most important competitions are national league, championship in whatever format, club league and club championship. They need to be fitted into the calendar and if there is any more room put something else in. Personally I would love to see the railway cup as it should only take up one weekend.........
Quote from: The Trap on August 05, 2016, 06:37:41 PM
You don't know what it takes to run a club, to play for a club, to support a club........
I on the other hand see both sides. .........
You haven't a clue mate. Over and out.
I know a lot more about it than you anyway
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 04, 2016, 03:46:52 PM
Yeah, but we should be used to that at this stage. That's why I always have said that we need to define the problem before we define a solution. Otherwise you end up changing stuff and either causing more problems, or not solving the problem that others think is there.
Is the problem uneven matches early in the championship?
Is the problem the long season?
Is the problem the gap between matches?
Is the problem the effect on the club scene?
Is the problem the poor crowds?
Is the problem the style of football?
Is the problem the 'easy' provinces?
.
I'd say it's 1,3,4 & 7.
However HQ seems to think the problem is with the closing stages or the AI Championship proper, that it needs more games and more "excitement". Playing the 4 Qtr Finals the same weekend would restore the excitement to the AI series.
Resistance to these ridiculous proposals, the latest money-spinning wheeze from the GAA hierarchy, is gathering pace, I'm glad to say.
Well said Colm Collins (http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=259101)
Can we add in the fact that the under 20 championship will be played next summer, county minors cannot play club, under 17s cannot play club.......
Quote from: The Trap on August 06, 2016, 11:22:13 AM
Can we add in the fact that the under 20 championship will be played next summer, county minors cannot play club, under 17s cannot play club.......
No.
Applying this new proposal to this year's championship and this weekends games, we might have Donegal playing Mayo next weekend and Dublin playing Tyrone. If there were wins for Dublin and Mayo it would mean last two games would be pointless (why would Tyrone and Donegal bother playing each other at all.) what sort of game would Dublin Mayo be?
I'm an NFL fan and have often thought about adapting the NFL system to GAA as both competitions have 32 teams and, albeit very loosely in the NFL's case, maintain a local element to a national competition. I accept this plan has many flaws but I thought I would put it out there for the craic as much as anything.
Firstly, get rid of the league.
Secondly, create 8 provincial divisions based loosely on the current provinces both with tweaks to ensure competiveness. Here is my stab at 8 divisions:
Ulster West
Donegal
Derry
Tyrone
Fermanagh
Ulster East
Antrim
Down
Armagh
Monaghan
Leinster North/Ulster South
Cavan
Meath
Longford
Louth
Leinster Central
Dublin
Westmeath
Offaly
London
Leinster South
Kildare
Wicklow
Laois
Carlow
Munster South/Leinster South
Cork
Tippearary
Waterford
Wexford
Munster West/Connacht South
Kerry
Galway
Clare
Limerick
Connacht North
Mayo
Roscommon
Sligo
Leitrim
Play 13 games in total. Play your 3 divisional opponents home and away ensuring high levels of local interest and attendance and 7 other teams (from the 28 outside your division) on a rotational basis every 4 years. Run regular season between April and July.
Trophy for winning each division
Top 4 ranked divisional winners through to 1/4 finals.
5-8 ranked divisional winners plus top 4 ranked divisional runners up into Wildcard round. Winners progress to 1/4 finals and straight knock out for there.
Would love to see teams ranked 12-20 and 20-28 playing off for second and third honours but for some reasons there is no appetite for lesser competitions in senior football.
Some obvious flaws in that it's very hard to get even divisions in the south of the country but this is a major flaw in the current system as well. Another negative would be you will get a couple of bad teams getting into knock out football every year due to being in a weak division.
Also in the NFL because of the draft even terrible teams can become competitive in a short space of time so you don't often get permanently terrible divisions. That said look at Tipperary and Clare, no reason why the likes of Wicklow, Wexford etc. couldn't do something similar and we could see some competive football across the board.
Pro's
Good chance for all teams to win honours (particularly if a second and third tier knock out tournament were adopted).
Consistent number of matches
Shorter season
Local rivalries maintained.
Dubs travel to London every year could help games promotion overseas.
Every county gets to play the big guns every 4 years
Cons
Potentially weak divisions
Impossible to exactly maintain provincial boundaries as they are now.
Adoption of words like 'wildcard' into GAA parlance would seem a long long way away.
Resistance to second and third tier competitions.
Anyway I know the idea is mad but I think we need to start thinking creatively as the current system is killing the game at the minute.
Fair dues Beard, maybe just the clear-sky type of thinking that we need.
Another suggestion to be thrown into the mix:
QuoteGAA: We Have Come Up With The Perfect Structure For The All-Ireland Senior Football Championship
Sean Cremin August 10, 2016 1,752 Views
Some may yawn, but here we go again. We are throwing our hand up and changing the format of the All-Ireland Senior Football Championship. What is clear is that the current structure is not working. It is a boring system, it has run its course and it does not favour anybody. Change is needed.
Before we get into it in further detail, we will identify the major problems in the current system:
The gaps between games are too long.
The provincial championships are imbalanced.
Teams do not play enough games at the right time of the year.
The championship doesn’t kick off until August .
Games as a spectacle are dropping all the time.
Clubs are not catered for in the slightest.
Intercounty managers have far too much control.
Tradition is preventing progression.
Crowds are getting smaller.
Money talks.
So taking this into account, this new format is attempting to keep EVERYBODY happy. This new format will be played over three months. These can be three months in a row, or breaks can be allowed in between for club activity or whatever, we will leave this open to debate.
The provincial championships stay, but they are played over one month. The maximum amount of rounds in any province is four, so this is played off over four weeks. At the end, all teams will still remain in the All-Ireland championship, but teams are rewarded for getting to a provincial final, which we will explain later.
The provincial championships will go back to the old days and will be built on local passion and rivalry. This will help to resurrect each county and GAA as a whole.
The next stage of the championship will be the qualifiers. These will operate in a group stage. At this stage, 32 teams will be left in the championship, discarding New York. There will be eight groups of four, but there will TWO different sections.
The first section will contain two groups; A and B. These groups will contain the eight teams that contest the provincial finals. They will be split into two groups of four and will play three matches each. Whoever tops the group will go straight into the All-Ireland quarter finals while the other six teams will go into the Preliminary Round for the All-Ireland series.
The other 24 teams will go into an open draw, where six groups of four will be created; C, D, E, F, G and H. The only stipulation of the open draw is that no more than two teams from one province can be in the same group. Again, each team will have three matches and the only teams to advance here are the six group winners.
These group games will again, take place over one month. They do not have to be dragged out at all. Teams will be playing a continuous run of games every week.
At the conclusion of these groups, a total of 14 teams will remain in the All-Ireland Football Championship. Eight provincial finalists and six group winners.
A draw will then take place for the Preliminary Round of the All-Ireland Football Championship. 12 teams will be in this draw. The six group winners of groups C, D, E, F, G and H, as well as the teams who finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th in groups A and B.
There will be three pots for this draw. Pot 1 will include the three teams from Group A. Pot 2 will include the three teams from Group B, while all the rest will be in Pot 3. Teams in Pots 1 and 2 will be seeded and can only face teams from Pot 3. At the conclusion of the draw, a toss will be made for home advantage.
After this stage, 8 teams will remain. The group winners from A and B will be seperated, but after that, it is an open draw. Quarter-finals, semi-finals and final follow and the championship is over.
This can all take place after the course of one month. Preliminary round, quarter-final, semi-final, final. 4 rounds championship over in three months.
Again these three months can be spread out or played altogether. The overall point is that the GAA season in general needs to be totally condensed. It takes way too long and it is boring at this stage. Teams are doing too much training and not playing enough matches. This format is game after game, what more could players want.
And at the end of the day, players are the ones who should be catered for in GAA. This does not just look after intercounty players. It frees up lots of time for club players.
Another point is that replays are scrapped. The biggest money making scam in GAA is gone. Replays cause nothing but hassle for everybody. Games must finish on the day. Extra-time is to be played and if a game ends a draw after extra-time, American Football style overtime is used. The ball is thrown in and the first team to score wins.
So there is the suggested new format. Again, it is an attempt to cater for EVERYONE in the GAA. Who might lose out here? Television, bandwagon fans, intercounty managers who want months of preperation and the GAA’s pockets.
But these are all problems that the GAA must solve if things are to improve. There will be lots of games that won’t be televised, but proper fans will go and watch these.
The GAA should slash the ticket prices and encourage fans to go to games. This would boost atmosphere and the quality of GAA occasions that everyone has loved in the passed.
Intercounty mangers won’t allow this to happen. DON’T GIVE THEM A CHOICE. Stop them from dictating everything and take some responsibility. Yes that is directed at the GAA hierarchy.
And finally, stop thinking about money and sort out the product that is Gaelic Games. Everything in GAA is diminishing at the moment. A lot needs to be sorted, so lets go and sort it appropriately.
So here is how the championship could hypothetically work out taking this years provincial results into account;
All-Ireland Qualifers – Group Stages ( A and B contains provincial finalists, C-H open draw)
A B C D E F G H
DUBLIN WESTMEATH DERRY LONDON DOWN OFFALY CORK ANTRIM
GALWAY KERRY ARMAGH CAVAN FERMANAGH MONAGHAN SLIGO LIMERICK
DONEGAL MAYO KILDARE WICKLOW LONGFORD LOUTH WATERFORD CARLOW
TIPPERARY TYRONE MEATH CLARE ROSCOMMON LEITRIM LAOIS WEXFORD
All-Ireland Football Championship Preliminary Round – Round Before Quarter-Finals (Teams who finish 2nd, 3rd and 4th in Groups A&B, as well as the 6 group winners from C-H)
Derry v Donegal
Cork v Kerry
Galway v Tipperary
Clare v Westmeath
Wexford v Monaghan
Fermanagh v Mayo
All-Ireland Football Quarter Final (Teams who finished top of A&B are kept apart, the rest is an open draw)
Dublin v Mayo
Tyrone v Monaghan
Clare v Galway
Kerry v Donegal
Semi-finals, another open draw, and finals follow and the undisputed best team in Ireland will come out on top. There is a lot of games, but that is what people want. A team may have to play up to 10 games to win an All-Ireland and the minimum any team will get is 4 matches.
It is a lot, but the time and effort being put into GAA these days, means people should get a lot out of it. The best thing about this is that it can all be played off in three months. This allows nine months to fit in club games, third level competitions and more.
So there is the suggestion, let us know what you all think of it.
That last one is so contorted and contrived that my head hurts. 3 groups here, 4 groups there, you go that way, now you stand over there, you don't bother. Too many contortions.
The NFL based one prior to it has a fundanental flaw which destroys it: there is no draft system in GAA, so there is absolutely no way to artificially control the quality of county teams. Supporters might put up with the occasional dead rubber but won't put up with a year full of them or several years worth of them. The second flaw is that nobody will care a damn if they win their group, so you can save money and not bother with the trophies for doing so.
Owenmoresider's one which I too struggled to read starts out somewhat similar to the GPA proposal but went crazy somewhere in the middle.
A conference system could work if there were 4 conferences of 8 teams playing for the provincial crowns but would require all teams to a minimum 15 competitive games a season to work which is a non runner presently unfortunately. E.g. Eastern teams play the other 7 teams in their conference and 8 others from a different conference on a rotating basis. Plenty of different playoff permutations could be explored too.
Are we all or most of us here agreed that the HQ proposal of extended group style closing stages of the Championship is
1- a bad idea
2- a non runner in official GAA circles.
Quotes from Pauric Duffy, today's Irish News:
"...people want to see the top teams playing each other more often..."
"People talk about Tipperary or a Galway to get through to an AI semi final, but you want the two best teams to make it through to the final".
In other words, Carlow, Leitrim, Antrim and the rest - sod off! Elitist or what?
A competition should be won by the best teams. This isn't elitist at all. Any elite level competition structure shouldn't be concerned about anything or than giving everyone the same structured path to winning the title. If it does that then everyone can win it if they are good enough.
Carlow or Waterford will never improve through competition structures, that will only happen through work on the ground.
Pauric Duffy proposed championship format will just make the strong stronger, the weak weaker and his big bank account bigger. Would love to stay it won't go ahead but this is the same Mr Duffy that got his wish finally to scrap a popular and entertaining U21 football grade and replaced it with a diluted U20 version.
The GAA championship is a cup competition and like any cup competition upsets and underdog stories are one of the most interesting features of it. If you want a elite competition where the best teams play each other more often then you are looking at the league however is it possible for the "elite" to take the NFL as serious as they take the championship?
It will be like playing a division one league in the winter/spring and a division one championship in the summer - at least in the other 24 counties they can get on with club action. Unfortunately I am from a county that will probably be in the last eight every year! At the start anyway until the clubs don't produce the players to keep them there............
Championship is about finding the best or champion team.
People do want the best teams to meet in the closing stages.
No matter what structure you come up with the current Leitrim/Waterford/Carlow etc won't make the last 8.
While it was great to see Clare deservedly make the last 8 they were out if their depth there.
But at least with the knock out format there was only one hiding.
By the way it was Congress changed the under age competitions to u17 and u20 in the interests of player welfare.
Quote from: Zulu on August 11, 2016, 12:27:04 AM
A competition should be won by the best teams. This isn't elitist at all. Any elite level competition structure shouldn't be concerned about anything or than giving everyone the same structured path to winning the title. If it does that then everyone can win it if they are good enough.
Carlow or Waterford will never improve through competition structures, that will only happen through work on the ground.
Structures, facilities, backroom teams etc... how could a Leitrim compete with the Dublins in those terms? Even Jersey sponsoring - Dublin multimillion deal, Leitrim a few thousand.
The c'ship should be able underdog, shock defeats, one off games. Clare in an AI semi, Leitrim likewise, Donegal in their first AI final...that's what people want to see. Everyone deserves the same chance, ie an open draw.
All these proposed formats favour the big counties. Continuous semis and finals where Dublin play Kerry, Kerry v Mayo, Mayo v Dublin. Meanwhile 29 counties are bored out of there skulls, watching the same players, the same teams. What's the point of that?
It's the same with the Champions League, I'd prefer to see an open draw. It won't happen because there's so much money involved and they want the Reals, Barcas, Milan's, PSGs, Chelsea's in the later rounds. The GAA are thinking the same way as elitist UEFA
Quote from: Zulu on August 11, 2016, 12:27:04 AM
A competition should be won by the best teams. This isn't elitist at all. Any elite level competition structure shouldn't be concerned about anything or than giving everyone the same structured path to winning the title. If it does that then everyone can win it if they are good enough.
Carlow or Waterford will never improve through competition structures, that will only happen through work on the ground.
Elitist is when it is set up to explicitly exclude or disadvantage the weaker teams or to aid the stronger ones. A meritocracy is what we aim for, where there's equal opportunity, and the best teams win. However Padraig Duffy's comment could easily be seen as 'we don't want Tipperary or Galway in the final' and that's bullshit.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 11, 2016, 09:28:57 AM
Quote from: Zulu on August 11, 2016, 12:27:04 AM
A competition should be won by the best teams. This isn't elitist at all. Any elite level competition structure shouldn't be concerned about anything or than giving everyone the same structured path to winning the title. If it does that then everyone can win it if they are good enough.
Carlow or Waterford will never improve through competition structures, that will only happen through work on the ground.
Elitist is when it is set up to explicitly exclude or disadvantage the weaker teams or to aid the stronger ones. A meritocracy is what we aim for, where there's equal opportunity, and the best teams win.
I think what we need is system that allows the weaker teams the chance to improve and progress through the championship if they do, however it needs to be a fair system that inst dependant on geography, how easy or difficult your path to an AI is.
Whatever solution we come up with i still think it needs to be based on the league placings,
with the lower placed teams playing qualifying rounds to reach the AI proper.
That gives weaker teams games against teams of their own level and then if they get through the chance to compete with the big boys.
It should also stop the complete mismatches where team rank#1 are hammering a team ranked #32
So will Padraig not be best pleased if Tipp beat Mayo?
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on August 11, 2016, 09:33:38 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 11, 2016, 09:28:57 AM
Quote from: Zulu on August 11, 2016, 12:27:04 AM
A competition should be won by the best teams. This isn't elitist at all. Any elite level competition structure shouldn't be concerned about anything or than giving everyone the same structured path to winning the title. If it does that then everyone can win it if they are good enough.
Carlow or Waterford will never improve through competition structures, that will only happen through work on the ground.
Elitist is when it is set up to explicitly exclude or disadvantage the weaker teams or to aid the stronger ones. A meritocracy is what we aim for, where there's equal opportunity, and the best teams win.
I think what we need is system that allows the weaker teams the chance to improve and progress through the championship if they do, however it needs to be a fair system that inst dependant on geography, how easy or difficult your path to an AI is.
Whatever solution we come up with i still think it needs to be based on the league placings,
with the lower placed teams playing qualifying rounds to reach the AI proper.
That gives weaker teams games against teams of their own level and then if they get through the chance to compete with the big boys.
It should also stop the complete mismatches where team rank#1 are hammering a team ranked #32
See my proposals back on page 1 or 2.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 11, 2016, 09:28:57 AM
Quote from: Zulu on August 11, 2016, 12:27:04 AM
A competition should be won by the best teams. This isn't elitist at all. Any elite level competition structure shouldn't be concerned about anything or than giving everyone the same structured path to winning the title. If it does that then everyone can win it if they are good enough.
Carlow or Waterford will never improve through competition structures, that will only happen through work on the ground.
Elitist is when it is set up to explicitly exclude or disadvantage the weaker teams or to aid the stronger ones. A meritocracy is what we aim for, where there's equal opportunity, and the best teams win. However Padraig Duffy's comment could easily be seen as 'we don't want Tipperary or Galway in the final' and that's bullshit.
Any comment can be 'interpreted' the way people want to do so. I don't believe PD wants a system where the likes of Dublin and Kerry only win All Irelands, why would a Monaghan man want that? I don't think PD's format is the right one but he has proposed one that he thinks is an improvement on the current one, which it probably is, but is constrained by the need to retain the provincials and as I've said many times, once your starting point is 4 uneven groups it's nigh on impossible to come up with a good solution.
All counties can improve in any format so a competition format shouldn't be concerned with 'improving' counties but only with giving them a fair chance to compete. PD's format does that.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm backing you up, this is not an elitist proposal, it is a meritocratic proposal. But I still don't like his comment. Why mention Tipp or Galway at all?
We should have a Gaaboard championship to decide who has the best suggestion for a new championship format.
First, we'll need to discuss the format of the championship to decide which is the best format of the championship.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 11, 2016, 11:29:38 AM
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm backing you up, this is not an elitist proposal, it is a meritocratic proposal. But I still don't like his comment. Why mention Tipp or Galway at all?
Don't known AZ but until people give some new format a chance and not shoot everyone down because they aren't perfect then we won't move forward. At this stage the football championship is utterly depressing. we've three games left and bar the novelty of Tipp's progression we have hardly had a single notable thing happen.
Clare did well also. I don't think Duffy's is the worst in the world. I just don't like when people make comments that suggest they like the old guard being at the top table. Just present the proposal and leave it at that. It's obviously something that will reward teams who are playing well, so just leave it at that and never mind hostages to fortune.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 11, 2016, 09:15:50 AM
Championship is about finding the best or champion team.
By the way it was Congress changed the under age competitions to u17 and u20 in the interests of player welfare.
When did the current championship format not find the best or champion team. The cream rises to the top and all that.
For 9 years Pauric Duffy tried to scrap U21 competition he finally convinced those in congress with a watered down U20 competition. If in the interests of player welfare then why was the Sigerson cup untouched?
Never claimed the current system doesn't find the best team. Was responding to points made about having shocks in a "cup competition".
That sigerson thing should be played before Christmas and Counties only in the FBD etc.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 10, 2016, 09:47:55 PM
That last one is so contorted and contrived that my head hurts. 3 groups here, 4 groups there, you go that way, now you stand over there, you don't bother. Too many contortions.
The NFL based one prior to it has a fundanental flaw which destroys it: there is no draft system in GAA, so there is absolutely no way to artificially control the quality of county teams. Supporters might put up with the occasional dead rubber but won't put up with a year full of them or several years worth of them. The second flaw is that nobody will care a damn if they win their group, so you can save money and not bother with the trophies for doing so.
The way around the first flaw is for teams to take the second and third tier knock-out competitions, and qualification for same, seriously so there is always something at stake. By my count only 11 counties have won the All-Ireland since 1960 so for, say, 20 odd (not necessarily the same) counties winning the All -Ireland is a totally unrealistic objective. Teams outside the top 12 should be aiming to win a second or third tier competions and look to build. Supporters would also need to buy in to this.
110% accept, however, that there is no appetite for 2nd/3rd comps at the moment so I agree, until this mindset changes it is a fatal flaw.
Something needs to change though, at the moment the entire Leinster Championship is a dead rubber.
Fair enough re the second flaw. Could hand out special rainproof 'division winners' flat caps as an alternative.
If there was promotion and relegation to and from the first, second and maybe third tier then over time teams would have to take it seriously if they ever want to play at a higher level. Playing at that higher level will be a process build upon by a few years of development rather than a one off, maybe flukey, draw. Counties may be forced to put long term strategies in place to get promotion, which may make them more competitive when they get there. It may take a few years to embed but I feel it's the only viable way forward. Would, say for example, Armagh fans not be excited at the prospect of winning an intermediate championship which meant they were back playing senior football the following year?
The combination of the traditional provincial format and the added on open qualifier draw has worked well.
Since the qualifiers have become embedded, most every semi finals have been competitively contested by the 4 best teams.
Is that not a criteria of a functioning competition?
The 1/4 finals have been hit or miss, but that's down to a quality gap, not a championship format issue per se.
Reducing the gap between top and bottom should be one of the priorities and progress in that sphere (in reducing that gap) is a true sign of achievement/health.
.Changes in the format can be made, but for what purpose? so that a county like Tipp can't ever turn over one of the fancied teams and make it into the top 4? I think that's an example of seriously defective thinking.
Tipp have had a number of good minor and u21 teams from hard work at their underage set ups.
There was always the probability of them coming good.
The semi final will let us know how good or were they just lucky that they got Galway?
I think it would be easier for people to get their heads around proposed structures if they were accompanied with multiple simulated outcomes.
Particularly if you're trying to sell them as being beneficial to weaker counties.
Pick 3 counties from each province and use their recent history to simulate how far they might progress, how many games they might play etc.
Lets say from Leinster you took Dublin, Laois and Carlow.
From Munster you took Kerry, Tipperay and Waterford.
From Connacht you took Mayo, Ros and Leitrim.
And from Ulster you took Tyrone, Cavan and Antrim.
Then you have a clearer picture of how the proposed changes will effect the genuine All-Ireland contenders, the mid-ranking teams that are 'competitive' but a good bit off the genuine contenders, and the teams that are likely to go out early under the current system.
Otherwise, it's too difficult to get your head around, particularly in the social media age where it takes far less energy to talk than it does to think.
i have been an active Gaa member for over 40 years , and have witnessed massive advances during that time. However in recent years , the association seems to be losing it's way. So much so that I think there must be a double agent from the FAI or IRFU operating at headquarters(only half-joking). We seem to be continually be shooting ourselves in the foot. What seperates us from other sports is the strength of our grass roots, our sense of identity: parish, county, country, diaspora. We can't match other sports in terms of global appeal and income generation.
The crisis for our association is not at the higher echelons , it's the increasing marginalisation of the grass roots. We try constantly to mimic other sports, whilst neglecting our strengths.
Surprise , surprise, the Kerry chairman supports the AIFC proposed change, but presumably the Dublin chairman will be crafty enough not to come out in support, for fear it will stir up the culchies into opposing it. Kerry Dublin Cork Tyrone have been in most qfinals over the past 20+ years. Kerry & Dublin particularly, for differing reasons , would be virtually guaranteed to qualify for these groups every year, and can plan accordingly . For ulster counties it'll be far more difficult to have a sustained presence at the top table.
With this proposal the rich get richer, while the masses suffer.
You only have to look at how such elitism has completely undermined hurling in Antrim, Down and Derry.
Let's work on a proposal that gives more football to ALL counties and rewards the weaker counties , within year, eg B championship finalists re-entering the All Ireland series at a later point.
Let's have clear Intercounty and club blocks of games , to ensure our players get playing games as opposed to constant training.
Ps. How our administrators came up with a system that effectively runs the risk of dead rubber games in August , baffles me. The fact that this proposal coincides with the extra monies for the GPA ( who, by the way have done some excellent work) , concerns me that there may be an inevitable path to professionalism . I think we need to look after and reward ALL county players but recent changes and proposals , seen to be favouring the precious few. The GAA top table need to be careful what they wish for!
Great post 6th Sam......how do we halt the slide to professionalism though? And if it goes down that route within 10-20 years there will be about 8-12 GAA franchises as that is all the country could cope with......
The slide towards professionalism is inevitable. Laois and Fermanagh (I am led to believe) both had professional players (paid by benefactors) over 10 years ago, sales reps who did not have to make many sales were a common feature in almost all counties at some stage, 100's of players get paid every summer in America leaving their clubs and sometimes counties stranded. Plenty of Kerry players leaving jobs to train full time too.
You could well argue professionalism is here already, just very badly organised and resources distributed in a messy fashion.
A first round game 25 years ago is still talked about - Meath v Dublin. Can you remember who your county played in the first round 25 years ago? (It was Down actually, but that's not the point).
Imagine an open draw, Kerry v Dublin in first round. We need the c'ship started by big games like that. And maybe we'll be talking about a first round cracker 25 years later.
Big teams knocking each other out if drawn. And on other side, Sligo, Louth, Longford etc ending up in a final or semi. That's what the c'ship is all about.
I forsee a total separation of club players and county players in the future. Obviously I hope I'm wrong, as it would be the ruination of club football. Like what happened with the rugby.
In saying that, the saving grace would probably be that the GAA can't afford to go pro, I don't think there would be much appetite for about 10 or 12 franchises.
Why would the separation of club and county be the ruination of club football?
Quote from: Zulu on August 19, 2016, 01:41:34 AM
Why would the separation of club and county be the ruination of club football?
It would be the end of county football in less successful counties. Players won't play county if it means they can't play with their clubs.
And a player making the county panel will be a disaster for a club, rather than an honour, especially after they developing him as a child.
That said, it might be the cleanest way to resolve the whole fixtures debacle.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2016, 08:19:37 AM
And a player making the county panel will be a disaster for a club, rather than an honour, especially after they developing him as a child.
That said, it might be the cleanest way to resolve the whole fixtures debacle.
AZ sums up the point I was trying to make. Also people wouldn't go to watch club games if there was simultaneous calendar.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 19, 2016, 10:06:16 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2016, 08:19:37 AM
And a player making the county panel will be a disaster for a club, rather than an honour, especially after they developing him as a child.
That said, it might be the cleanest way to resolve the whole fixtures debacle.
AZ sums up the point I was trying to make. Also people wouldn't go to watch club games if there was simultaneous calendar.
As shark says, most players in weaker counties would choose their club unless they were getting paid to play for their county (which won't happen). In stronger counties it might be different but if it did happen I think that would b a great boost for the club game as we could give those lads a proper season which is all that really matters at that level. I don't think the attendance at club games is an argument at all.
Quote from: Zulu on August 19, 2016, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 19, 2016, 10:06:16 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2016, 08:19:37 AM
And a player making the county panel will be a disaster for a club, rather than an honour, especially after they developing him as a child.
That said, it might be the cleanest way to resolve the whole fixtures debacle.
AZ sums up the point I was trying to make. Also people wouldn't go to watch club games if there was simultaneous calendar.
As shark says, most players in weaker counties would choose their club unless they were getting paid to play for their county (which won't happen). In stronger counties it might be different but if it did happen I think that would b a great boost for the club game as we could give those lads a proper season which is all that really matters at that level. I don't think the attendance at club games is an argument at all.
That's just speculation. There's no way of telling that. And if that were the case, then it would kill the inter county game. So I'm not sure that either scenario is very palatable.
It would be the easiest way of sorting out the fixtures issue, but you'd have to be very careful you didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. At the end of the day, your club is your club, even in strong counties.
I'm not advocating it but I don't agree it would be a disaster for clubs as the most important thing for clubs and club players is getting plenty of games in a structured matter, or it should be at least.
I don't think it is really speculation to say most club players in weaker counties would opt to stay with their clubs as it is plenty do anyway. But I'm sure some would opt for the county and some players in strong counties would opt for their clubs.
It isn't going to happen anyway but if it did I think clubs might find it to be a better world.
Quote from: Zulu on August 19, 2016, 12:21:42 PM
I'm not advocating it but I don't agree it would be a disaster for clubs as the most important thing for clubs and club players is getting plenty of games in a structured matter, or it should be at least.
I don't think it is really speculation to say most club players in weaker counties would opt to stay with their clubs as it is plenty do anyway. But I'm sure some would opt for the county and some players in strong counties would opt for their clubs.
It isn't going to happen anyway but if it did I think clubs might find it to be a better world.
I'm not sure the bit in bold is true. Yes they want a structured calendar, absolutely. But do they want it at the expense of having to compete in championships without their best players? I doubt that very much.
As I said, it would take a lot of thinking to get it fair and right, but I also did say it would be the easiest solution to fixtures chaos and calendar, but at what cost.
I wouldn''t be 100% against it by the way, but you'd have to incentivise clubs to continue to put in the work and you'd have to strictly limit how many lads could be called up to the county from one club, and also when they could be called up.
AZ, we're talking about something that won't happen but if it did then I think it would be fine for clubs. Every other sport survives just fine, thrives in many cases, with their best players playing at higher levels. It would be a culture change for GAA folk and will never happen without professionalism anyway but if it did and it was the same for everyone then we'd adjust. Most clubs don't have senior county players anyway and of those that do, the majority only have one or two.
Rugby has not thrived at club level. Absolutely not. And the GAA is the only sporting organisation actively based on a sense of parish or location. Don't underestimate how dangerous a badly thought out attempt at that would be.
But anyway, it won't happen.
Quote from: Zulu on August 19, 2016, 01:12:59 PM
AZ, we're talking about something that won't happen but if it did then I think it would be fine for clubs. Every other sport survives just fine, thrives in many cases, with their best players playing at higher levels. It would be a culture change for GAA folk and will never happen without professionalism anyway but if it did and it was the same for everyone then we'd adjust. Most clubs don't have senior county players anyway and of those that do, the majority only have one or two.
In Ireland?
Don't think so.
Not an expert on rugby but outside of the Cork Cons and Shannons etc. is there any difference for the likes of Clonmel or Ennis rugby clubs with the introduction of professionalism? Is there not a thriving soccer scene in Ireland below the LOI level with many clubs having decent facilities and plenty of players?
Soccer the world over seems to thrive despite the fact that kids readily transfer to better clubs even within their locality. All sports bar GAA have some kind of pathway to elite level that involves or can involve leaving your original club.
Of course there'd be issues and one of the genuinely great things about the GAA is the fact we don't tend to leave our home clubs and certainly not to other local clubs to gain medals but club level GAA should be providing players with regular competitive games and if we don't do that soon I think we'll lose way more players in the future.
The last time I lived at home I took my home club's adult footballers. The season was so disrupted and most of the time we had no idea when our next game was that I got little or no enjoyment out of it. I'm not sure I'd get involved at adult level again in Ireland and I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in that.
There certainly needs to be something done calendar wise, no argument with that. And again, the easiest solution would be to only have club players playing club, including championship, and they only get to play with their county players if the county happens to be finished for the year. You'd have a lot of club members hoping for a first round qualifier exit :) But the easiest is not always the best.
But as regards soccer and rugby and the like, there are very few avenues for a club soccer player to move on to the 'next' level. How many junior soccer clubs are losing players because he is selected for a league of Ireland club, or goes to England? Very few. In contrast every single GAA club in every county has probably had at least 1 lad wear the county jersey. The risk, as a soccer club, is not of losing a lot of players to England or LOI. A GAA club would certainly be at a higher risk of losing its better players to a county squad.
This is going around in circles though.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2016, 11:52:30 AM
Quote from: Zulu on August 19, 2016, 11:42:54 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on August 19, 2016, 10:06:16 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2016, 08:19:37 AM
And a player making the county panel will be a disaster for a club, rather than an honour, especially after they developing him as a child.
That said, it might be the cleanest way to resolve the whole fixtures debacle.
AZ sums up the point I was trying to make. Also people wouldn't go to watch club games if there was simultaneous calendar.
As shark says, most players in weaker counties would choose their club unless they were getting paid to play for their county (which won't happen). In stronger counties it might be different but if it did happen I think that would b a great boost for the club game as we could give those lads a proper season which is all that really matters at that level. I don't think the attendance at club games is an argument at all.
That's just speculation. There's no way of telling that. And if that were the case, then it would kill the inter county game. So I'm not sure that either scenario is very palatable.
It would be the easiest way of sorting out the fixtures issue, but you'd have to be very careful you didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. At the end of the day, your club is your club, even in strong counties.
I can only speak from a Westmeath perspective. It's a county in which the general public don't give GAA a second thought. Getting outnumbered 3:1 by Offaly supporters in Mullingar this year shows that. As a result the aura around being an inter county player is not that great. The county footballers panel dropped to 22 players after the league was over. They begged some lads to join the panel after that to get back to 30ish. My club normally has a few on the panel and knowing these lads (current and past) they would all to a man refuse to play county if it meant they couldn't play club championship. The county team would die.
Exactly my point. In counties where the county team is a big draw, the clubs would suffer hugely, and would have to ask themselves about producing county players. Take Thurles Sarsfields for example, they'd be losing about 6 players. And then the smaller clubs would suffer as much. Killenaule losing Bubbles O'Dwyer, or Kilruane losing Niall O'Meara would be very hard to take.
In the other counties where the club is king, you might end up killing the county team.
Neither scenario is palatable in my view, but as I keep saying, if we could come up with some proper version of it, it might be more palatable, and solve the fixture nightmare.
Having said all that, I'm not sure Dessie Dolan or John Heslin would choose their club over Westmeath would they?
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 19, 2016, 03:20:44 PM
Exactly my point. In counties where the county team is a big draw, the clubs would suffer hugely, and would have to ask themselves about producing county players. Take Thurles Sarsfields for example, they'd be losing about 6 players. And then the smaller clubs would suffer as much. Killenaule losing Bubbles O'Dwyer, or Kilruane losing Niall O'Meara would be very hard to take.
In the other counties where the club is king, you might end up killing the county team.
Neither scenario is palatable in my view, but as I keep saying, if we could come up with some proper version of it, it might be more palatable, and solve the fixture nightmare.
Having said all that, I'm not sure Dessie Dolan or John Heslin would choose their club over Westmeath would they?
I don't know Dessie personally (despite playing against him numerous times), so it's hard to say, but he is a serious club man. Heslin might be in the minority, he had a transfer request to another Westmeath club blocked in the past. As mentioned above, GAA is different to soccer and rugby. Imagine the pressure within a community, "ah sure the county will win nothing, you can't leave us and we so close to winning the championship the last few years", etc etc
Cork apparently against the new structure, there's been a few rumours about a few county's who will vote against it. I think its unlikely it will get the 66.66% to get through at congress.
I couldn't see that being voted through.
It's giving the 2 fingers to 24 teams and inventing a new competitive tournament for the top 8.
Tipp have already voted against it.
Andy McEntee spoke very well about the club vs. county issue after Ballyboden lost at the weekend.
He acknowledged that he'll see it now from the other side with Meath but he articulated a viewpoint that many people in the wider GAA community would share.
Think the interview was with Newstalk.
Piece in the Examiner confirming Cork voting against it.
If the likes of Cork are voting against it, the odds of it passing must be tiny and verging into humiliating defeat territory for those behind this proposal.
Cork vote against everything.
I think it will be back to the drawing board for Duffy & Co, I liked the idea of seeing more better quality games but in fairness to the teams who'd have little chance of making the final 8 it simply creates a bigger divide between the top and bottom.
I'd be in favour of a two tier championship and guaranteeing every county at least 6 championship games, would also like to see them shortening the league by a couple of games.
Quote from: Jinxy on October 12, 2016, 03:29:22 PM
Cork vote against everything.
Cork would surely have fancied themselves as one of the teams likely to benefit from this change.
Also the fact that very soon they will have a new stadium to pay for but a shortage of matches and still they vote against increasing the number of matches???
Every county has a senior, intermediate and junior championship.
Junior clubs aren't up in arms that they don't get to play in the senior championship.
Inter-county football is the anomaly here.
True Jinxy.
Is it time to copy the girleens again and have Senior, Junior and Intermediate All Ireland Inter Co Championships?
You could still have everyone entering the Provincials.
Quote from: Jinxy on October 12, 2016, 06:07:58 PM
Every county has a senior, intermediate and junior championship.
Junior clubs aren't up in arms that they don't get to play in the senior championship.
Inter-county football is the anomaly here.
Spot on, we get the odd shock but isn't enough to keep justifying the current format.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 12, 2016, 06:34:26 PM
True Jinxy.
Is it time to copy the girleens again and have Senior, Junior and Intermediate All Ireland Inter Co Championships?
You could still have everyone entering the Provincials.
Even just the two 'divisions ' would make a huge difference.
A top 16 competition and a bottom 16 competition.
All 8 div one clubs automatically qualify for the 'top 16 sam maguire competition'
div 3 & 4 play a knockout qualifying round.
The winning sides progress on to play the div 2 sides.
The winning 8 from that join the top 8 sides for a knockout allireland competion with the first round seeded and then an open draw after that.
Looks like we're going to go over old ground.
The main problem is that there is no appetite among players from "weaker" counties to participate in a graded system.
I'm not saying the players' opinions are the be all and end all but it's not a great starting point.
Well if its played the way I have outlined , every county still has the chance to get into the top tier competition every year.
It just requires the weaker counties to 'qualify' for it.
It would lead to more emphasis on league position as well if it meant a greater chance of competing in the all ireland last 16
This would benefit the weaker counties by giving them a realistic game to aim for at the beginning of each year. a knockout game against a team at a similar level.
The provincial championships can still be played separately, and the mckenna cup,FBD etc can be done away with.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 13, 2016, 11:59:32 AM
Well if its played the way I have outlined , every county still has the chance to get into the top tier competition every year.
It just requires the weaker counties to 'qualify' for it.
It would lead to more emphasis on league position as well if it meant a greater chance of competing in the all ireland last 16
This would benefit the weaker counties by giving them a realistic game to aim for at the beginning of each year. a knockout game against a team at a similar level.
The provincial championships can still be played separately, and the mckenna cup,FBD etc can be done away with.
I think your suggestion was that the top 12 teams per the league plus the four provincial winners would compete in the 'A' championship? Technically that gives everyone a chance of taking part but realistically it doesn't.
I'd favour a preliminary tournament for the weaker teams that allowed some of them to enter that year's championship if they qualified.
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 13, 2016, 12:10:22 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 13, 2016, 11:59:32 AM
Well if its played the way I have outlined , every county still has the chance to get into the top tier competition every year.
It just requires the weaker counties to 'qualify' for it.
It would lead to more emphasis on league position as well if it meant a greater chance of competing in the all ireland last 16
This would benefit the weaker counties by giving them a realistic game to aim for at the beginning of each year. a knockout game against a team at a similar level.
The provincial championships can still be played separately, and the mckenna cup,FBD etc can be done away with.
I think your suggestion was that the top 12 teams per the league plus the four provincial winners would compete in the 'A' championship? Technically that gives everyone a chance of taking part but realistically it doesn't.
I'd favour a preliminary tournament for the weaker teams that allowed some of them to enter that year's championship if they qualified.
I think either format is a improvement on the current one, But I take your point, a preliminary qualifying competition for the weaker counties might be the best bet.
That would allow the GAA then to market the last 16 as the elite competition of the gaa and return to a knockout format rather than the second chance nature of the current qualifier system.
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 13, 2016, 11:37:28 AM
Looks like we're going to go over old ground.
The main problem is that there is no appetite among players from "weaker" counties to participate in a graded system.
I'm not saying the players' opinions are the be all and end all but it's not a great starting point.
What about supporters from the so called 'weaker counties', I'd like to know what they think?
I'd have thought the County Boards from the weaker counties would be in favour as it theory they'd make more money on the gate.
As for the players they'd soon get used to it, the next generation wouldn't know any different as they'd have grown up with it.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on October 13, 2016, 12:49:15 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 13, 2016, 11:37:28 AM
Looks like we're going to go over old ground.
The main problem is that there is no appetite among players from "weaker" counties to participate in a graded system.
I'm not saying the players' opinions are the be all and end all but it's not a great starting point.
What about supporters from the so called 'weaker counties', I'd like to know what they think?
I'd have thought the County Boards from the weaker counties would be in favour as it theory they'd make more money on the gate.
As for the players they'd soon get used to it, the next generation wouldn't know any different as they'd have grown up with it.
So would I.
The players might get used to it or they may boycott it as some said they would.
As AZ has often said on this subject, what exactly is the problem we're trying to solve?
In my opinion, the "problem" needs to be addressed along with the issue of club games and not in isolation.
Hold my horses. What's this about shortening the provincial competitions?
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2016/1013/823661-gaa-president-o-fearghail/
Some of this proposal is great. Condensing the championship. moving the finals a couple of weeks earlier, getting rid of replays, but the fact its proposed along with this round robin system in the latter stages, mean that its very unlikely to get through.
Surely we can get the championship condensed without adding in this other stage?
it seems that they are trying to get this 2 groups of 4 thing passed and have tacked on a few things that people actually do want to try and get it passed.
Was waiting on the annual snorefest about restructuring the championship, some of ye boys would be better off down your club doing something for the GAA rather than coming up with ingenious methods for restructuring county football.
I talk a lot of GAA to a lot of GAA heads and I can never recall anyone raising the issue of reformatting the championship or talking about round robins or doing away with the provincials. This is a media driven campaign and it is having life breathed into it by forums such as this with barrackroom administrators coming up with new formats to salve their own egos. Solving the scheduling issues for club and county without even having to leave ur bedroom. Laughable stuff.
I've lost count of the number of different posters who have come up with new formats on here, all of which will completely solve the fixtures issue ::) Never a word about any of the problems or negative outcomes these might have. Indeed it's clear that there is ZERO thought given to the possible negative outcomes of any of these schemes. I see someone wanting to guarantee every team 6 championship games ;D ;D ;D ;D that's not a championship mate, that's called a league.
Where are you all when it comes to getting change in the GAA? Sitting at home in your bedroom probably. The seriousness with which they take themselves is hilarious.
For the sake of reasonable debate on this thread I'd encourage posters to ignore the last post.
I agree that the current proposal is much better than I had understood it. I'd look forward to the detailed calendar that they have to see how it is supposed to work.
I imagine they want this through in conjunction with the new TV deal with more "top" games likely to be played on the same weekend.
Well Esmeralda sure what's the point in having 'reasonable debate' on here when u can go along to your clubs AGM and give your opinions there, I'm sure your cogent and well reasoned proposals will create such a swell of support that u will be nominated to propose a motion at County Convention. In fact u will probably end up at Convention with your well thought out plans carrying the floor.
Alternatively have a cut at someone who is rightfully laughing at you on a discussion board.
The proposed championship by Páraic Duffy this year will eventually become a reality because as seen with his ten year campaign to scrap the U21 Championship whatever Duffy wants Mr Duffy normally gets.
I'd be in favour of getting rid of the league if it meant a longer championship.
Run the provincial championships in March, start the championship in April with every team to play 6 games up until the end of July which allow every county to play at least 3 rounds of their own championship in that period.
Quote from: Keyser soze on October 13, 2016, 03:19:03 PM
Was waiting on the annual snorefest about restructuring the championship, some of ye boys would be better off down your club doing something for the GAA rather than coming up with ingenious methods for restructuring county football.
I talk a lot of GAA to a lot of GAA heads and I can never recall anyone raising the issue of reformatting the championship or talking about round robins or doing away with the provincials. This is a media driven campaign and it is having life breathed into it by forums such as this with barrackroom administrators coming up with new formats to salve their own egos. Solving the scheduling issues for club and county without even having to leave ur bedroom. Laughable stuff.
I've lost count of the number of different posters who have come up with new formats on here, all of which will completely solve the fixtures issue ::) Never a word about any of the problems or negative outcomes these might have. Indeed it's clear that there is ZERO thought given to the possible negative outcomes of any of these schemes. I see someone wanting to guarantee every team 6 championship games ;D ;D ;D ;D that's not a championship mate, that's called a league.
Where are you all when it comes to getting change in the GAA? Sitting at home in your bedroom probably. The seriousness with which they take themselves is hilarious.
Again, nonsense from you on this issue. So you and your mates don't talk about so it's a media concoction, is that it Kellyanne Conway? Most people I know are very unhappy with the IC competition structures but like many GAA people are primarily concerned about the team they are involved in.
This is a discussion board where people chat about various issues to give and hear opinions. Some of us may well have brought our solutions to our clubs but even if we haven't that doesn't mean we can't talk about it here. Suggesting otherwise is utter rubbish. Lot's of suggestions here solve many of the problems but a total overhaul is required to solve them all and that isn't going to happen anytime soon unfortunately.
Is that Keyser lúlá from North Korea.
I see HQ have issued a new booklet on the proposed last 8 series.
They've included attendances at Championship games this century showing 2016 as the lowest overall since 2000, the last year before the Qualifiers.
Only for Mayowestros being in the Qualifiers this year the figures for the 25 games would have been embarrassing.
Around 55,000 at the other 21 games and this included u16s who had to pay this year, who weren't counted other years.
Doubling the admission price didn't help, but the irrelevancy of many of the games in the big picture isn't helping.
As for the new Big 8 thing...... totally opposed to it.
Mr Duffy "it's not about the money"
The GAA community "its the GAA, its always about the money Mr Duffy"
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2016, 11:48:29 AM
I see HQ have issued a new booklet on the proposed last 8 series.
They've included attendances at Championship games this century showing 2016 as the lowest overall since 2000, the last year before the Qualifiers.
Only for Mayowestros being in the Qualifiers this year the figures for the 25 games would have been embarrassing.
Around 55,000 at the other 21 games and this included u16s who had to pay this year, who weren't counted other years.
Doubling the admission price didn't help, but the irrelevancy of many of the games in the big picture isn't helping.
As for the new Big 8 thing...... totally opposed to it.
The "Big 8 thing" is only part of it. What about the rest?
Quote from: The Trap on October 20, 2016, 01:47:27 PM
Mr Duffy "it's not about the money"
The GAA community "its the GAA, its always about the money Mr Duffy"
I'm really disappointed, but I agree with you.
Revenues go down, let's change the structure.......which will benefit the clubs.....yea right
The answer is really easy, Have a ranking system - 1-32/34 (NY & London). League positions initially form ranking, which then establishes who you play in the prov. championship.
After prov. championships, re-rank, and then have a knockout championship for the All Ireland Championship.
Condense the season to 4/5 months and you have a solution.
Round robin round = Money grab. Will not improve intensity in matches.
Quote from: Kickham csc on October 20, 2016, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: The Trap on October 20, 2016, 01:47:27 PM
Mr Duffy "it's not about the money"
The GAA community "its the GAA, its always about the money Mr Duffy"
I'm really disappointed, but I agree with you.
Revenues go down, let's change the structure.......which will benefit the clubs.....yea right
The answer is really easy, Have a ranking system - 1-32/34 (NY & London). League positions initially form ranking, which then establishes who you play in the prov. championship.
After prov. championships, re-rank, and then have a knockout championship for the All Ireland Championship.
Condense the season to 4/5 months and you have a solution.
Round robin round = Money grab. Will not improve intensity in matches.
Did you read the full proposal?
The introduction outlines exactly where they were coming from, given the huge range of opinions that people have on the issue.
The round robin rewards teams that get to the last eight (like Tipp and Clare this year) with a guaranteed home fixture against one of the other eight, as well as a trip to Croker. Mickey Harte is a long term critic of the fact that provincial winners don't get a second chance. That is also fixed in this scenario.
As Duffy says, if it was all about money they wouldn't have scrapped replays (as far as they can) and there'd be no games at regional grounds in the quarter finals.
The worst thing about this is the PR disaster they created by only feeding the media the part about the round robin without pointing out the other benefits.
Obvious things such as no replays and games played on the same weekend would improve things but the round robin is billiards. Bound to be dead rubbers in the third round of games.
At the same time it's a slight improvement for the club player so that's something
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 20, 2016, 02:43:44 PM
Quote from: Kickham csc on October 20, 2016, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: The Trap on October 20, 2016, 01:47:27 PM
Mr Duffy "it's not about the money"
The GAA community "its the GAA, its always about the money Mr Duffy"
I'm really disappointed, but I agree with you.
Revenues go down, let's change the structure.......which will benefit the clubs.....yea right
The answer is really easy, Have a ranking system - 1-32/34 (NY & London). League positions initially form ranking, which then establishes who you play in the prov. championship.
After prov. championships, re-rank, and then have a knockout championship for the All Ireland Championship.
Condense the season to 4/5 months and you have a solution.
Round robin round = Money grab. Will not improve intensity in matches.
Did you read the full proposal?
The introduction outlines exactly where they were coming from, given the huge range of opinions that people have on the issue.
The round robin rewards teams that get to the last eight (like Tipp and Clare this year) with a guaranteed home fixture against one of the other eight, as well as a trip to Croker. Mickey Harte is a long term critic of the fact that provincial winners don't get a second chance. That is also fixed in this scenario.
As Duffy says, if it was all about money they wouldn't have scrapped replays (as far as they can) and there'd be no games at regional grounds in the quarter finals.
The worst thing about this is the PR disaster they created by only feeding the media the part about the round robin without pointing out the other benefits.
How many replays per year 'v' additional games? Given that you can't plan for replays, this guarantees additional games = more money.
Trip to Croker... Makes Croker less of a burden as a ongoing expense. Not implement for the good of the players..... more revenue
They have to make the games more exciting and meaningful. Get rid of the back door playoffs. League, Prov championship and the All Ireland Championship. More condensed season, more time for clubs.
This proposal will not help the clubs, with the exception of playing the finals earlier in the year, but April to August is going to be county season. What will the clubs do during this time??
Esmerelda, you must have been sitting on this proposal meeting!!!!! A bit like Eugene McGee and Jarlath Burns defending the black card against the general consensus......wait to see how Burns defends the mark when it turns out to be useless.......
Croke Park only care about revenue, they must be worried about falling attendances, about young men in various counties deciding the military training regime is not for them, the formation of a CPA to speak on behalf of the forgotten majority
If only Cake Curran could have put it more eloquently when he made the comparison to the demise of the Catholic Church!!!!!!
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2016, 11:48:29 AM
I see HQ have issued a new booklet on the proposed last 8 series.
They've included attendances at Championship games this century showing 2016 as the lowest overall since 2000, the last year before the Qualifiers.
Only for Mayowestros being in the Qualifiers this year the figures for the 25 games would have been embarrassing.
Around 55,000 at the other 21 games and this included u16s who had to pay this year, who weren't counted other years.
Doubling the admission price didn't help, but the irrelevancy of many of the games in the big picture isn't helping.
As for the new Big 8 thing...... totally opposed to it.
Today's "modern" football is the reason for the drop in attendance figures and regardless of what structure is put in place I don't expect counties to snap out of their current styles of play and make the games more attractive for public to watch or stop the attendances from dropping. Some of the best games played this year was in the U21 championship because sides weren't bogged down in systems and the players weren't in fear of making mistakes.
Quote from: The Trap on October 20, 2016, 03:05:38 PM
Esmerelda, you must have been sitting on this proposal meeting!!!!! A bit like Eugene McGee and Jarlath Burns defending the black card against the general consensus......wait to see how Burns defends the mark when it turns out to be useless.......
Croke Park only care about revenue, they must be worried about falling attendances, about young men in various counties deciding the military training regime is not for them, the formation of a CPA to speak on behalf of the forgotten majority
If only Cake Curran could have put it more eloquently when he made the comparison to the demise of the Catholic Church!!!!!!
An astonishing post.
No, I just read the document with an open mind.
What's the general consensus on the black card?
Good to see you're on to Burns before the rule is even put in place. Don't give him an inch.
Is Croke Park responsible for the military training regimes?
The proposal was made before the CPA came about.
All you were missing was the term "fat cats" and you'd have had a full house.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 20, 2016, 03:25:38 PM
Today's "modern" football is the reason for the drop in attendance figures and regardless of what structure is put in place I don't expect counties to snap out of their current styles of play and make the games more attractive for public to watch or stop the attendances from dropping. Some of the best games played this year was in the U21 championship because sides weren't bogged down in systems and the players weren't in fear of making mistakes.
Other than The Sunday Game panel have you any evidence to back this up?
The GAA like all other Irish bodies is subject to the changes in the economy and wider society.
It is also open to competition and the toos and fros of popularity. 10 years is a trend but it's not unusual and it's not based on the optics of the game.
I'd say the small impact of the European Soccer finals was a bigger impact than the optics of the current game.
Quote from: Kickham csc on October 20, 2016, 03:00:47 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 20, 2016, 02:43:44 PM
Quote from: Kickham csc on October 20, 2016, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: The Trap on October 20, 2016, 01:47:27 PM
Mr Duffy "it's not about the money"
The GAA community "its the GAA, its always about the money Mr Duffy"
I'm really disappointed, but I agree with you.
Revenues go down, let's change the structure.......which will benefit the clubs.....yea right
The answer is really easy, Have a ranking system - 1-32/34 (NY & London). League positions initially form ranking, which then establishes who you play in the prov. championship.
After prov. championships, re-rank, and then have a knockout championship for the All Ireland Championship.
Condense the season to 4/5 months and you have a solution.
Round robin round = Money grab. Will not improve intensity in matches.
Did you read the full proposal?
The introduction outlines exactly where they were coming from, given the huge range of opinions that people have on the issue.
The round robin rewards teams that get to the last eight (like Tipp and Clare this year) with a guaranteed home fixture against one of the other eight, as well as a trip to Croker. Mickey Harte is a long term critic of the fact that provincial winners don't get a second chance. That is also fixed in this scenario.
As Duffy says, if it was all about money they wouldn't have scrapped replays (as far as they can) and there'd be no games at regional grounds in the quarter finals.
The worst thing about this is the PR disaster they created by only feeding the media the part about the round robin without pointing out the other benefits.
How many replays per year 'v' additional games? Given that you can't plan for replays, this guarantees additional games = more money.
Trip to Croker... Makes Croker less of a burden as a ongoing expense. Not implement for the good of the players..... more revenue
They have to make the games more exciting and meaningful. Get rid of the back door playoffs. League, Prov championship and the All Ireland Championship. More condensed season, more time for clubs.
This proposal will not help the clubs, with the exception of playing the finals earlier in the year, but April to August is going to be county season. What will the clubs do during this time??
What's wrong with more games if they're played over a more condensed period?
I don't understand your "Trip to Croker" line.
Is your next line an alternative suggestion? Could you clarify it please?
From the document itself - "Specifically, under this proposal the months of August, September and October will be available for all counties to complete their championships, with the exception of the four counties involved in the football semi-finals and the two involved in the hurling final. The two counties involved in the football final will have an extra three weeks available to them to complete their championships compared to the current situation, while the two hurling finalists will also have an extra threeweeks to do so."
April to August I assume they'll play league games without their county players. It's not supposed to a be a perfect solution but it improves things. Getting proposals through congress is so difficult that changes like this are the best way to do it (I realise that's what they're saying in the document before someone wants to point it out).
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 20, 2016, 02:25:58 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2016, 11:48:29 AM
I see HQ have issued a new booklet on the proposed last 8 series.
They've included attendances at Championship games this century showing 2016 as the lowest overall since 2000, the last year before the Qualifiers.
Only for Mayowestros being in the Qualifiers this year the figures for the 25 games would have been embarrassing.
Around 55,000 at the other 21 games and this included u16s who had to pay this year, who weren't counted other years.
Doubling the admission price didn't help, but the irrelevancy of many of the games in the big picture isn't helping.
As for the new Big 8 thing...... totally opposed to it.
The "Big 8 thing" is only part of it. What about the rest?
Shortening the time taken to play the Provincials is one good proposal and is the first thing that needs doing even if nothing else changes.
Playing both Semis the same weekend is something I've suggested before, also needed for the hurley stuff.
Of course if we had Senior, Inter and Junior All Ireland Championships .....would free up another 3 or 4 weekends.
Not exactly revolutionary - Clubs and the Girleens have this all the time.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2016, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 20, 2016, 02:25:58 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2016, 11:48:29 AM
I see HQ have issued a new booklet on the proposed last 8 series.
They've included attendances at Championship games this century showing 2016 as the lowest overall since 2000, the last year before the Qualifiers.
Only for Mayowestros being in the Qualifiers this year the figures for the 25 games would have been embarrassing.
Around 55,000 at the other 21 games and this included u16s who had to pay this year, who weren't counted other years.
Doubling the admission price didn't help, but the irrelevancy of many of the games in the big picture isn't helping.
As for the new Big 8 thing...... totally opposed to it.
The "Big 8 thing" is only part of it. What about the rest?
Shortening the time taken to play the Provincials is one good proposal and is the first thing that needs doing even if nothing else changes.
Playing both Semis the same weekend is something I've suggested before, also needed for the hurley stuff.
Of course if we had Senior, Inter and Junior All Ireland Championships .....would free up another 3 or 4 weekends.
Not exactly revolutionary - Clubs and the Girleens have this all the time.
True, but we know from the GPA and from this document that there is no appetite among players for a tiered-championship structure.
Sure they could have gone ahead and ignored that and how would that have went down.
I'm glad you at least acknowledge the other points. I never thought I'd see the season compressed.
I would be curious as to how Dublin fans would like to see the Leinster championship improved?
Similarly, are the Munster n connacht supporters happy with their lot?
Ulster is a good championship but I feel it could be shortened with games on Saturdays n sundays on the same weekend
Quote from: An Watcher on October 20, 2016, 03:59:31 PM
I would be curious as to how Dublin fans would like to see the Leinster championship improved?
Similarly, are the Munster n connacht supporters happy with their lot?
Ulster is a good championship but I feel it could be shortened with games on Saturdays n sundays on the same weekend
That's what they're doing here.
Anyone attacking Duffy for his motivations hasn't a clue about the man or the reality of making any championship proposals. We have a ridiculous situation where a person can not only play with two different teams (his club and county), one of them competing in the biggest sports competition in Ireland but also two different sports (football and hurling) and can possibly play all four. And that's before we even get into U21 and adult representation being possible in all four as well as university representation.
Then throw in a sport that treats it's leagues with something just above contempt and has it's main competition as a cup based on unequal geographical groups with teams of wildly varying ability.
The bizarre thing is that many GAA supporters will complain about all these things at various stages but you'd be hard pressed to get anyone to agree to change things. Therefore, we get these halfway house proposals that can be easily pulled apart because they are fundamentally flawed by trying to keep the daft provincials, accommodate dual players at IC level and create a decent season for both clubs and counties in two sports within an 8 month period.
Until we take our heads out of our asses and develop a season that doesn't attempt to accommodate everyone then we will always have a daft system that really satisfies nobody in the long-term.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 20, 2016, 11:48:29 AM
I see HQ have issued a new booklet on the proposed last 8 series.
They've included attendances at Championship games this century showing 2016 as the lowest overall since 2000, the last year before the Qualifiers.
Only for Mayowestros being in the Qualifiers this year the figures for the 25 games would have been embarrassing.
Around 55,000 at the other 21 games and this included u16s who had to pay this year, who weren't counted other years.
Doubling the admission price didn't help, but the irrelevancy of many of the games in the big picture isn't helping.
As for the new Big 8 thing...... totally opposed to it.
The championship is only half-dressed without Mayo.
Need to go back to straight championship in senior and club football. Back door and Such shite has drawn out the senior calendar. Likewise the needless invention of group stages and convoluted back door in club scene is a load of bollix. Heard Parkinson say that club footballers need 3 championships matches a year not just 1. That's bollix. If your shite one is plenty. There's plenty of round robin group stages where a team loses all 3 matches. What the fcuk did 3 defeats achieve for these clubs that 1 wouldn't have. Tired of listening to gobshites on the radio and internet spouting the first inane notion that comes into their head.
Listening to the radio these days is akin to being committed to an asylum.
Take yer tablets like a good gasúinìn.
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2016, 10:05:59 PM
Need to go back to straight championship in senior and club football. Back door and Such shite has drawn out the senior calendar. Likewise the needless invention of group stages and convoluted back door in club scene is a load of bollix. Heard Parkinson say that club footballers need 3 championships matches a year not just 1. That's bollix. If your shite one is plenty. There's plenty of round robin group stages where a team loses all 3 matches. What the fcuk did 3 defeats achieve for these clubs that 1 wouldn't have. Tired of listening to gobshites on the radio and internet spouting the first inane notion that comes into their head.
Listening to the radio these days is akin to being committed to an asylum.
A team only improves by playing more games
You're daft
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on October 22, 2016, 10:56:00 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2016, 10:05:59 PM
Need to go back to straight championship in senior and club football. Back door and Such shite has drawn out the senior calendar. Likewise the needless invention of group stages and convoluted back door in club scene is a load of bollix. Heard Parkinson say that club footballers need 3 championships matches a year not just 1. That's bollix. If your shite one is plenty. There's plenty of round robin group stages where a team loses all 3 matches. What the fcuk did 3 defeats achieve for these clubs that 1 wouldn't have. Tired of listening to gobshites on the radio and internet spouting the first inane notion that comes into their head.
Listening to the radio these days is akin to being committed to an asylum.
A team only improves by playing more games
You're daft
Improving players aside, what sport would survive in the modern sporting landscape with a knockout format? The GAA would be severely weakened in 10 or 15 years. Astonishing anyone could think like that now.
Quote from: Zulu on October 22, 2016, 11:07:07 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on October 22, 2016, 10:56:00 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2016, 10:05:59 PM
Need to go back to straight championship in senior and club football. Back door and Such shite has drawn out the senior calendar. Likewise the needless invention of group stages and convoluted back door in club scene is a load of bollix. Heard Parkinson say that club footballers need 3 championships matches a year not just 1. That's bollix. If your shite one is plenty. There's plenty of round robin group stages where a team loses all 3 matches. What the fcuk did 3 defeats achieve for these clubs that 1 wouldn't have. Tired of listening to gobshites on the radio and internet spouting the first inane notion that comes into their head.
Listening to the radio these days is akin to being committed to an asylum.
A team only improves by playing more games
You're daft
Improving players aside, what sport would survive in the modern sporting landscape with a knockout format? The GAA would be severely weakened in 10 or 15 years. Astonishing anyone could think like that now.
But we already have a league based competition. Its called the National Football LEAGUE.
Maybe some effort should effort should be placed in increasing the importance and standing of the league, rather than trying to try and turn the championship in to another league.
I agree with Trillickman, a knockout format for the championship is by far the best senario.
Use the league standings to seed the championship if you have to or play rounds of qualifying to reach the last 16 , but the idea of a group stage at the QTR final stage is a nonsense, completely driven by the revenue that they think can be generated.
There's only one suggestion of a new format on the table I.e the "Super 8s".
Central Council to discuss next month and if they agree it will go to Congress as a motion.
Hopefully they will put the tighter timescales for the Provincials as a separate motion so that can be voted through.
However I can see the Provincial Councils canvassing fiercely to stop it.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 26, 2016, 12:54:59 PM
There's only one suggestion of a new format on the table I.e the "Super 8s".
Central Council to discuss next month and if they agree it will go to Congress as a motion.
Hopefully they will put the tighter timescales for the Provincials as a separate motion so that can be voted through.
However I can see the Provincial Councils canvassing fiercely to stop it.
Why?
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 26, 2016, 11:54:00 AM
Quote from: Zulu on October 22, 2016, 11:07:07 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on October 22, 2016, 10:56:00 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2016, 10:05:59 PM
Need to go back to straight championship in senior and club football. Back door and Such shite has drawn out the senior calendar. Likewise the needless invention of group stages and convoluted back door in club scene is a load of bollix. Heard Parkinson say that club footballers need 3 championships matches a year not just 1. That's bollix. If your shite one is plenty. There's plenty of round robin group stages where a team loses all 3 matches. What the fcuk did 3 defeats achieve for these clubs that 1 wouldn't have. Tired of listening to gobshites on the radio and internet spouting the first inane notion that comes into their head.
Listening to the radio these days is akin to being committed to an asylum.
A team only improves by playing more games
You're daft
Improving players aside, what sport would survive in the modern sporting landscape with a knockout format? The GAA would be severely weakened in 10 or 15 years. Astonishing anyone could think like that now.
But we already have a league based competition. Its called the National Football LEAGUE.
Maybe some effort should effort should be placed in increasing the importance and standing of the league, rather than trying to try and turn the championship in to another league.
I agree with Trillickman, a knockout format for the championship is by far the best senario.
Use the league standings to seed the championship if you have to or play rounds of qualifying to reach the last 16 , but the idea of a group stage at the QTR final stage is a nonsense, completely driven by the revenue that they think can be generated.
Yes but the league is not taken seriously and won't be unless it's linked to the championship as you say. I've long championed linking the league to the championship and dropping the provincials. If we do that then yes we can have a knockout championship but we can't if it's in the current system.
Quote from: Zulu on October 26, 2016, 02:06:16 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 26, 2016, 11:54:00 AM
Quote from: Zulu on October 22, 2016, 11:07:07 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on October 22, 2016, 10:56:00 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2016, 10:05:59 PM
Need to go back to straight championship in senior and club football. Back door and Such shite has drawn out the senior calendar. Likewise the needless invention of group stages and convoluted back door in club scene is a load of bollix. Heard Parkinson say that club footballers need 3 championships matches a year not just 1. That's bollix. If your shite one is plenty. There's plenty of round robin group stages where a team loses all 3 matches. What the fcuk did 3 defeats achieve for these clubs that 1 wouldn't have. Tired of listening to gobshites on the radio and internet spouting the first inane notion that comes into their head.
Listening to the radio these days is akin to being committed to an asylum.
A team only improves by playing more games
You're daft
Improving players aside, what sport would survive in the modern sporting landscape with a knockout format? The GAA would be severely weakened in 10 or 15 years. Astonishing anyone could think like that now.
But we already have a league based competition. Its called the National Football LEAGUE.
Maybe some effort should effort should be placed in increasing the importance and standing of the league, rather than trying to try and turn the championship in to another league.
I agree with Trillickman, a knockout format for the championship is by far the best senario.
Use the league standings to seed the championship if you have to or play rounds of qualifying to reach the last 16 , but the idea of a group stage at the QTR final stage is a nonsense, completely driven by the revenue that they think can be generated.
Yes but the league is not taken seriously and won't be unless it's linked to the championship as you say. I've long championed linking the league to the championship and dropping the provincials. If we do that then yes we can have a knockout championship but we can't if it's in the current system.
In the proposal, which it still feels like many haven't read, it is acknowledged that there is a desire to retain the provincial championships. This ties in with what the GPA said when they put forward their proposals last year.
It's all fair enough to keep making suggestions on this board about getting rid of the provincials and/or having a two/three tier system, but I think we need to accept that it isn't going to happen when they players (perhaps the most important stakeholder) do not want it.
The question I would ask is, do people think the new proposals are an improvement for everyone concerned compared to what we currently have?
I can't see how they aren't and they should be put through on that basis.
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 26, 2016, 02:25:13 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 26, 2016, 02:06:16 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 26, 2016, 11:54:00 AM
Quote from: Zulu on October 22, 2016, 11:07:07 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on October 22, 2016, 10:56:00 AM
Quote from: trileacman on October 21, 2016, 10:05:59 PM
Need to go back to straight championship in senior and club football. Back door and Such shite has drawn out the senior calendar. Likewise the needless invention of group stages and convoluted back door in club scene is a load of bollix. Heard Parkinson say that club footballers need 3 championships matches a year not just 1. That's bollix. If your shite one is plenty. There's plenty of round robin group stages where a team loses all 3 matches. What the fcuk did 3 defeats achieve for these clubs that 1 wouldn't have. Tired of listening to gobshites on the radio and internet spouting the first inane notion that comes into their head.
Listening to the radio these days is akin to being committed to an asylum.
A team only improves by playing more games
You're daft
Improving players aside, what sport would survive in the modern sporting landscape with a knockout format? The GAA would be severely weakened in 10 or 15 years. Astonishing anyone could think like that now.
But we already have a league based competition. Its called the National Football LEAGUE.
Maybe some effort should effort should be placed in increasing the importance and standing of the league, rather than trying to try and turn the championship in to another league.
I agree with Trillickman, a knockout format for the championship is by far the best senario.
Use the league standings to seed the championship if you have to or play rounds of qualifying to reach the last 16 , but the idea of a group stage at the QTR final stage is a nonsense, completely driven by the revenue that they think can be generated.
Yes but the league is not taken seriously and won't be unless it's linked to the championship as you say. I've long championed linking the league to the championship and dropping the provincials. If we do that then yes we can have a knockout championship but we can't if it's in the current system.
In the proposal, which it still feels like many haven't read, it is acknowledged that there is a desire to retain the provincial championships. This ties in with what the GPA said when they put forward their proposals last year.
It's all fair enough to keep making suggestions on this board about getting rid of the provincials and/or having a two/three tier system, but I think we need to accept that it isn't going to happen when they players (perhaps the most important stakeholder) do not want it.
The question I would ask is, do people think the new proposals are an improvement for everyone concerned compared to what we currently have?
I can't see how they aren't and they should be put through on that basis.
Aspects of the proposals are (the compressed provincials, the shortening of the season and getting rid of replays.)
The pool stage at qtr final stage most certainly isn't though, and its a pity we cant et the rest of the changes with out having to vote in something else that very few people want apart from those counting the money.
Ok, but if it's an either or do you not think it's better?
In the case of the round robin, what exactly is your objection to it?
It's not something I'd have come up with but I don't see the harm in it. It gives the provincial winners a second chance should they lose their first game, it gives the viewing public more games between the better teams, it gives a bigger incentive to the lesser teams to make the quarter finals as they'll get a home game against one of the bigger teams.
People seem to be down on it because it'll raise money which seems to be a sin. I don't see how it is if it's not at the expense of something else.
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 26, 2016, 02:55:35 PM
Ok, but if it's an either or do you not think it's better?
In the case of the round robin, what exactly is your objection to it?
It's not something I'd have come up with but I don't see the harm in it. It gives the provincial winners a second chance should they lose their first game, it gives the viewing public more games between the better teams, it gives a bigger incentive to the lesser teams to make the quarter finals as they'll get a home game against one of the bigger teams.
People seem to be down on it because it'll raise money which seems to be a sin. I don't see how it is if it's not at the expense of something else.
What happens to club football during the period it takes to play these additional games at this stage?
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 26, 2016, 01:30:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 26, 2016, 12:54:59 PM
There's only one suggestion of a new format on the table I.e the "Super 8s".
Central Council to discuss next month and if they agree it will go to Congress as a motion.
Hopefully they will put the tighter timescales for the Provincials as a separate motion so that can be voted through.
However I can see the Provincial Councils canvassing fiercely to stop it.
Why?
Power - we like to do things our way in our Province. E.g Ulster's 1 game per week and 2 weeks to the replay and so what if we fcuk up the Qualifiers A and B schedule. Connacht with its mad system of some teams playing 4 rounds and others 2.
No replays - shock horror! €€€€€€€€€
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 26, 2016, 02:57:12 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 26, 2016, 02:55:35 PM
Ok, but if it's an either or do you not think it's better?
In the case of the round robin, what exactly is your objection to it?
It's not something I'd have come up with but I don't see the harm in it. It gives the provincial winners a second chance should they lose their first game, it gives the viewing public more games between the better teams, it gives a bigger incentive to the lesser teams to make the quarter finals as they'll get a home game against one of the bigger teams.
People seem to be down on it because it'll raise money which seems to be a sin. I don't see how it is if it's not at the expense of something else.
What happens to club football during the period it takes to play these additional games at this stage?
Well to answer your question, that's up to the individual counties, but to expand on it you need to look at the dates that the counties will be involved by using the new proposal as applied to the 2016 championship.
All 24 counties that don't reach the AIQF will be out of the AI series by the first week in July and free to play their club games from that date on. The four AIQFs that don't make the AISFs will be free from the last weekend of July.
So what the proposal does is improve the season for clubs. It doesn't make it perfect; the months of May and June will full of intercounty games and each county will either need to play reserve championships or league games without their county players like most have to do in the spring. Or even better, it gives a definite window for club players to go on holidays.
But it means that you won't have the farce we see now of a mad rush to get county championships played off in time so that the provincials don't need to be played in December.
It's better than the current format and while the round robin has weaknesses it's better than what's there and doesn't make things worse for clubs as far as I can see. However,it's not the best system and we really should focus on that. It's better than what we have so on that basis I'd give it a go.
Quote from: Zulu on October 26, 2016, 03:54:38 PM
It's better than the current format and while the round robin has weaknesses it's better than what's there and doesn't make things worse for clubs as far as I can see. However,it's not the best system and we really should focus on that. It's better than what we have so on that basis I'd give it a go.
Couldn't agree more.
The round robin might be a complete disaster but the tightening of season was always what I considered to be a fundamental first step. If they get that over the line then additional attempts can be made in later years to either change the latter stages or come up with a completely new approach.
Tend to agree. Where I disagree with Zulu is relating to the Provincial Championships. I like them, and I think players absolutely want to keep them.
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 26, 2016, 03:11:06 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on October 26, 2016, 02:57:12 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on October 26, 2016, 02:55:35 PM
Ok, but if it's an either or do you not think it's better?
In the case of the round robin, what exactly is your objection to it?
It's not something I'd have come up with but I don't see the harm in it. It gives the provincial winners a second chance should they lose their first game, it gives the viewing public more games between the better teams, it gives a bigger incentive to the lesser teams to make the quarter finals as they'll get a home game against one of the bigger teams.
People seem to be down on it because it'll raise money which seems to be a sin. I don't see how it is if it's not at the expense of something else.
What happens to club football during the period it takes to play these additional games at this stage?
Well to answer your question, that's up to the individual counties, but to expand on it you need to look at the dates that the counties will be involved by using the new proposal as applied to the 2016 championship.
All 24 counties that don't reach the AIQF will be out of the AI series by the first week in July and free to play their club games from that date on. The four AIQFs that don't make the AISFs will be free from the last weekend of July.
So what the proposal does is improve the season for clubs. It doesn't make it perfect; the months of May and June will full of intercounty games and each county will either need to play reserve championships or league games without their county players like most have to do in the spring. Or even better, it gives a definite window for club players to go on holidays.
But it means that you won't have the farce we see now of a mad rush to get county championships played off in time so that the provincials don't need to be played in December.
Counties wont play league games the same day as their county is playing. So does that mean all club games then move to a friday night or a saturday during this period ( im not saying i am against that, i am just asking for clarification)
My major fear would be that we will end up again with massive swathes of the season with no club club football at all (may/june/july/ august)
The compressing of the inter county season is a good thing, but i get the impression the main purpose is to fit in more high profile intercounty games rather than to actually help the club season any.
The fact that the intercounty season is finished a few weeks earlier, regardless is definitely a positive though.
Sorry, I actually forgot that counties are likely to be playing every week. I suppose they'll play on the Sunday if the county is playing on the Saturday or vice versa. I don't know.
Like is said, there just won't be large periods where there no club games.
For example, the eight counties that lost both their provincial opener and their first round qualifying game in 2016 (Antrim, Armagh, Down, London, Louth, Waterford, Wicklow and Wexford) would have entered the championship on the weekend of 30th April and exited on 28 May. One month. The next batch of eight teams to exit (Carlow, Fermanagh, Laois, Leitrim, Limerick, Meath, Monaghan and Offaly) would have exited on 11th June. That's half the country gone by that date.
1. Don't compress the intercounty season, but widen it - Leagues from February to the end of May, with no finals, and Championships from June weekend to All Irelands in September
2. Allow at least 2 idle intercounty weekends each month through March, April & May for club league games and again in July & August for club championships.
Quote from: Zulu on October 26, 2016, 03:54:38 PM
It's better than what we have so on that basis I'd give it a go.
Basically you are saying throw mud at the wall to see will some of it stick.
Er, no. I think there's some very clear things that need to be done to get a proper competitive season, get rid of the provincials and don't make any accommodations for dual or multiple age group players. But since that won't happen in the immediate future we can still make changes to make improvements on what we have now. There are clear improvements in this proposal and I see little that will make it worse, so let's give it a go.
Quote from: Zulu on October 27, 2016, 09:17:09 AM
Er, no. I think there's some very clear things that need to be done to get a proper competitive season, get rid of the provincials and don't make any accommodations for dual or multiple age group players. But since that won't happen in the immediate future we can still make changes to make improvements on what we have now. There are clear improvements in this proposal and I see little that will make it worse, so let's give it a go.
The super 8 proposal will make things worse in regard to the problem of the increasing (footballing and financial) gap between the top counties and the rest.
Anyone who thinks Duffy's attempt to paper over the fall in attendences with more pointless matches between the big boys is a good idea or even worth trying can be dismissed straight away.
Well if you say so. You'd think you'd start to get tired of posting daft things but no sign yet.
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on October 27, 2016, 11:58:49 PM
Quote from: Zulu on October 27, 2016, 09:17:09 AM
Er, no. I think there's some very clear things that need to be done to get a proper competitive season, get rid of the provincials and don't make any accommodations for dual or multiple age group players. But since that won't happen in the immediate future we can still make changes to make improvements on what we have now. There are clear improvements in this proposal and I see little that will make it worse, so let's give it a go.
The super 8 proposal will make things worse in regard to the problem of the increasing (footballing and financial) gap between the top counties and the rest.
Why? 8 teams, or one quarter of the teams in Ireland will make the final 8 so plenty of teams should be in with a shout of benefitting from whatever the big boys get out of it. The gap won't be closed by maintaining the status quo either.
Quote from: Syferus on October 28, 2016, 01:27:48 AM
Anyone who thinks Duffy's attempt to paper over the fall in attendences with more pointless matches between the big boys is a good idea or even worth trying can be dismissed straight away.
That the Uachtaràn CLCG and Kerry Co Board put in their boxes ! :-[
Quote from: Rossfan on October 28, 2016, 01:01:20 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 28, 2016, 01:27:48 AM
Anyone who thinks Duffy's attempt to paper over the fall in attendences with more pointless matches between the big boys is a good idea or even worth trying can be dismissed straight away.
That the Uachtaràn CLCG and Kerry Co Board put in their boxes ! :-[
Thanks for the support, little fella.
Would Kuwabatake Sanjuro and Syferus care to explain their points?
I hear the CC agreed to let the new proposals go to Congress?
Didn't see any reports in the media so don't know if that's fact.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/carlow-step-up-push-for-qualifier-change-35177377.html
QuoteCentral Council's backing of the Duffy plan should not be taken as proof that it's got anything like the necessary support to be successful at Congress.
It's quite likely that some delegates merely supported getting it on the Congress agenda, rather than believing it's the best way forward.
It would have been embarrassing for the director general if a detailed proposal were shot down without going before Congress, a situation which Central Council could not allow.
Carlow's proposal seems reasonable although I'm not sure what it is that they're looking to get out of it apart from less time waiting around.