Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[lenny]

We could maybe just focus on targeting "weaker" counties for increased financing, underage coaching, infrastructure etc rather than just chopping and changing and deluding ourselves into thinking this will make everything rosey. How is a perennial division 4 team ever going to get better if the best they can come up against is a division 4 team in some Mickey Mouse Tommy Murphy mkII?

Yeah, do the same at club level also. I can just imagine ogra colmcille and magilligan taking on slaughtneil and ballinderry in the derry championship if they had a bit more coaching. Some people on here are nuts. Why not just give counties tiers that they have a realistic chance to compete in and progress with a few matches rather than a competition where they have 2 matches every year with no chance of winning. Teams make progress in the league playing against teams their own level and then get thrown into the championship playing against teams 2 or 3 divisions above and get beaten by 20 points plus. All the development is wasted in one fell swoop. It's mad.

[Estimator]

Most Counties have group stages in their County Championships.

Mores the pity.

Derry club football introduced the round robin group stage in 2007 for the county championship, it lasted two years.  They moved to a back door system, that lasted 6/7 years, and then they returned back to the straight knock out a couple of years ago.

[five points]

Martin Breheny had a very good article on this in yesterday's Indo. He thinks a second tier won't work if it excludes certain counties from playing in the All Ireland Qualifiers but it might work if restricted to lower-division counties who exit the main championship in qualifier rounds 1 and 2.

[imtommygunn]

Is that not just what the Tommy Murphy cup was though?

[five points]

Is that not just what the Tommy Murphy cup was though?

Breheny admits that, but notes that counties were shoved into the Tommy Murphy Cup against their will and not allowed play in the qualifiers.

[Rossfan]

They were for 2 years only.
The present (being considered) proposals* are in effect Tommy Murphy Mark 2 .

* D3/4 teams that don't make a Provincial Final go straight to Tier 2 or
* All teams that don't reach Provincial Final go to Qualifiers. D3/4 teams that don't make Round 3 then enter  a Tier 2.
*I haven't heard of any others

[general_lee]

We could maybe just focus on targeting "weaker" counties for increased financing, underage coaching, infrastructure etc rather than just chopping and changing and deluding ourselves into thinking this will make everything rosey. How is a perennial division 4 team ever going to get better if the best they can come up against is a division 4 team in some Mickey Mouse Tommy Murphy mkII?

Yeah, do the same at club level also. I can just imagine ogra colmcille and magilligan taking on slaughtneil and ballinderry in the derry championship if they had a bit more coaching. Some people on here are nuts. Why not just give counties tiers that they have a realistic chance to compete in and progress with a few matches rather than a competition where they have 2 matches every year with no chance of winning. Teams make progress in the league playing against teams their own level and then get thrown into the championship playing against teams 2 or 3 divisions above and get beaten by 20 points plus. All the development is wasted in one fell swoop. It's mad.

Aye well you may tell the boys in Derry city they're wasting their time then! 

If there is an appetite for these elitist proposals among the weaker counties then I'll support them. This notion of giving the weak counties a wee to cup to play for cos they're gonna get hammered is the wrong approach. We've already heured ourselves out to Sky tv and along with the super 8s this is just another commercially motivated proposal to get the shite counties out of the road

[johnnycool]

Most Counties have group stages in their County Championships.

Mores the pity.

Derry club football introduced the round robin group stage in 2007 for the county championship, it lasted two years.  They moved to a back door system, that lasted 6/7 years, and then they returned back to the straight knock out a couple of years ago.

You'd wonder about that;

http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2019/05/29/news/derry-treasurer-resigns-amid-financial-worries-for-oak-leaf-board-1630118/

[GAA_Punter]

IF there is a second tier, TG4 would have to get full rights to cover at least two matches a week. Possibly the main match being on a Friday night live on TV could give it good exposure.

[trailer]

Div 3 and 4 teams actually want a tiered championship. Derry for example. They want their own championship to compete for with Carlow, Leitrim and Waterford etc.

[JoG2]

We could maybe just focus on targeting "weaker" counties for increased financing, underage coaching, infrastructure etc rather than just chopping and changing and deluding ourselves into thinking this will make everything rosey. How is a perennial division 4 team ever going to get better if the best they can come up against is a division 4 team in some Mickey Mouse Tommy Murphy mkII?

Yeah, do the same at club level also. I can just imagine ogra colmcille and magilligan taking on slaughtneil and ballinderry in the derry championship if they had a bit more coaching. Some people on here are nuts. Why not just give counties tiers that they have a realistic chance to compete in and progress with a few matches rather than a competition where they have 2 matches every year with no chance of winning. Teams make progress in the league playing against teams their own level and then get thrown into the championship playing against teams 2 or 3 divisions above and get beaten by 20 points plus. All the development is wasted in one fell swoop. It's mad.

Aye well you may tell the boys in Derry city they're wasting their time then! 

If there is an appetite for these elitist proposals among the weaker counties then I'll support them. This notion of giving the weak counties a wee to cup to play for cos they're gonna get hammered is the wrong approach. We've already heured ourselves out to Sky tv and along with the super 8s this is just another commercially motivated proposal to get the shite counties out of the road

talk the Cup could be slightly smaller than the Ashes trophy! 

The reality is most counties haven't a chance of winning Sam or getting anywhere close. What is the problem with letting EVERY county start in their Provinces and the All-Ireland, and if (could be a Provincial semi-final exit or qualifier Rd 2 exit etc...,) a county is not good enough in that particular year, get a chance of playing for a tier 2 cup? Personally I think it's a no brainer.

Take my own county as an example, Derry. At the moment we're at a very low base, but progressing. The squad are busting their chops and may get a run in the qualifiers. Are we a country mile behind the top 4 at the moment? Yes. Myself and our crew who travel to the games the length and breadth of the country would love a chance to see this current incarnation of Derry compete at Croke Pk in a tier 2 AI Final. This would be seen as progression, or a stepping stone towards a good run at Sam Maguire down the line.
The fear of scant coverage / attendances a Tier 2 competition would receive won't be any worse then we'll see at Wexford on Saturday.

[JoG2]

Most Counties have group stages in their County Championships.

Mores the pity.

Derry club football introduced the round robin group stage in 2007 for the county championship, it lasted two years.  They moved to a back door system, that lasted 6/7 years, and then they returned back to the straight knock out a couple of years ago.

You'd wonder about that;

http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2019/05/29/news/derry-treasurer-resigns-amid-financial-worries-for-oak-leaf-board-1630118/

"Our accounts are published annually and tabled at the AGM with all transactions detailed.

"Our treasurer stepped down for personal reasons. Any attempt to portray that there is a wider issue is inaccurate and uninformed."

But no doubt a straight knock-out does hit the county's central pot, but it's what the clubs voted for

[five points]

Take my own county as an example, Derry. At the moment we're at a very low base, but progressing. The squad are busting their chops and may get a run in the qualifiers. Are we a country mile behind the top 4 at the moment? Yes. Myself and our crew who travel to the games the length and breadth of the country would love a chance to see this current incarnation of Derry compete at Croke Pk in a tier 2 AI Final. This would be seen as progression, or a stepping stone towards a good run at Sam Maguire down the line.
The fear of scant coverage / attendances a Tier 2 competition would receive won't be any worse then we'll see at Wexford on Saturday.

Would repeating your Division 4 final win by beating Leitrim in a Tommy Murphy Cup Mark II Final on a Saturday afternoon in Croke Park really be any better than taking out Cavan, Monaghan or Cork in an AI qualifier?

[JoG2]

Take my own county as an example, Derry. At the moment we're at a very low base, but progressing. The squad are busting their chops and may get a run in the qualifiers. Are we a country mile behind the top 4 at the moment? Yes. Myself and our crew who travel to the games the length and breadth of the country would love a chance to see this current incarnation of Derry compete at Croke Pk in a tier 2 AI Final. This would be seen as progression, or a stepping stone towards a good run at Sam Maguire down the line.
The fear of scant coverage / attendances a Tier 2 competition would receive won't be any worse then we'll see at Wexford on Saturday.

Would repeating your Division 4 final win by beating Leitrim in a Tommy Murphy Cup Mark II Final on a Saturday afternoon in Croke Park really be any better than taking out Cavan, Monaghan or Cork in an AI qualifier?

Depending on the exit to Tier 2 parameter proposals, Derry could well be playing Cavan or Monaghan in the qualifiers (probably not Cork due to the Munster setup). IF they are good enough to beat them then they continue in Tier 1, same as now. If not, then they drop into Tier 2 were they will have more games and a potential CP All-Ireland final which would help progression more than not playing.

[five points]

Depending on the exit to Tier 2 parameter proposals, Derry could well be playing Cavan or Monaghan in the qualifiers (probably not Cork due to the Munster setup). IF they are good enough to beat them then they continue in Tier 1, same as now. If not, then they drop into Tier 2 were they will have more games and a potential CP All-Ireland final which would help progression more than not playing.

You didn't answer my question!

In my own county's case, we got a great boost from beating Derry in Celtic Park in 2013, when we were near the bottom of Division 3 in the league. The impetus from that drove us to promotion first to Division 2 and then to Division 1 and a decent improvement in our championship performances even if we didn't win any titles.

I'm not so sure we'd have gotten the same bounce from winning a B title in an empty Croke Park on a Saturday afternoon.