gaaboard.com

What cruel, short, forgotten lives those poor babies had.
And an even worse resting place - a disused septic tank  :'(

It must have had a massive affect on the mothers as well.
Dark times.

I searched earlier to see was there a previous thread on this and was surprised there wasn't. I then let it sit cause it'll probably end up in the usual agenda driven bollocks these threads usually do but this story sickens me to my core. Our fairly recent past is a horrible horrible place...

Horrendous. Fair play to Catherine Corless also for exposing all of this.

Some people paid a very high price for the purity of society in the pre 1980s .

Quote from: Tubberman on March 03, 2017, 09:35:41 PM
What cruel, short, forgotten lives those poor babies had.
And an even worse resting place - a disused septic tank  :'(

It must have had a massive affect on the mothers as well.
Dark times.

What was the death rate in that Dickensian baby trade institute?
was it 1 in 5?  or 1 in 10?
Innocent babies, many probably died due to ignorant neglect, shoved into a pit, leaving thousands of grieving  damaged young mothers  to move on with their life and all this done under the veil of christian charity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_and_Child_Scheme

In 1948 Dr.Noël Browne, a new T.D. for Clann na Poblachta, and a socialist, became Minister for Health in a coalition government. Browne was an admirer of Fianna Fáil's 1947 Health Act[4] and intended to implement its provisions as part of a plan to reduce the alarmingly high rate of child mortality (especially from tuberculosis) in Ireland,[5][6][7] modernise the Irish healthcare system and make it free and without means-testing for mothers and their children up to the age of 16.[4] He was impressed with the National Health Service in the United Kingdom[8] and successful medical procedural reforms in Denmark which reduced child mortality.[9] With vigour he tackled the domestic health issues and was acclaimed for the results.[10]
Then in July 1950, Browne's department formally submitted the scheme to the Irish Medical Association.[11] The Association had originally opposed the 1947 bill, mentioning the "socialisation of medicine."[4][10] They were supported in the coalition cabinet by the experienced Fine Gael T.D. Dr.Thomas F. O'Higgins, the Minister for Defence and a former member of the executive of the Irish Medical Association. More important was the opposition of the Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuaid, who summoned Browne to his palace[8] and read out a letter to be sent to the Taoiseach, John A. Costello, penned by Dr.James Staunton, Bishop of Ferns, which contained, "...they [the Archbishops and bishops] feel bound by their office to consider whether the proposals are in accordance with Catholic moral teaching," and, "Doctors trained in institutions in which we have no confidence may be appointed as medical officers ... and may give gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles.[12][13] The letter stated that health provision and physical education for children were solely the "right" of parents and not the State's concern. Archbishop McQuaid was the chairman of some boards of directors of Dublin hospitals. He exercised considerable influence concerning medical appointments and control over the religious orders whose members made up much of the administrative and management staff in hospitals, sanatoria etc.[14][15] Concerning the term "moral teaching" in the letter to the Taoiseach, Browne received supportive advice - in secret - from Francis Cremin, a Maynooth professor of theology and canon law.[8] Some bishops, McQuaid and others feared the scheme could pave the way for abortion and birth control. Though some Catholic Church leaders may have been privately sympathetic to Browne and wished to reach an accommodation, what was viewed as Browne's tactless handling of the Catholic Church forced the moderates into silence, allowing the anti-Mother and Child Scheme members of the hierarchy under McQuaid to set the agenda.[16]

There have been some absolutely awful historic scandals uncovered in this country over the past 10 years or so but this will be the worst when the full details come to light - its absolutely sickening. 

and the Catholic Church still have control over the primary school system via their patronage

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on March 03, 2017, 11:45:16 PM
and the Catholic Church still have control over the primary school system via their patronage

Which is nothing to do with anything. When these tragedies are uncovered there is always someone with some agenda which minimises them to a debating point.

Shameful what was only going in this country. Up there as bad as what Hitler did to the Jews, he was a madman with deluded followers whats the Irish excuse?

Quote from: Cunny Funt on March 04, 2017, 12:21:10 AM
Shameful what was only going in this country. Up there as bad as what Hitler did to the Jews, he was a madman with deluded followers whats the Irish excuse?

Think of the neighbours......

Quote from: The Subbie on March 04, 2017, 01:40:29 AM

Quote from: Cunny Funt on March 04, 2017, 12:21:10 AM
Shameful what was only going in this country. Up there as bad as what Hitler did to the Jews, he was a madman with deluded followers whats the Irish excuse?

Think of the neighbours......

You can imagine what it was like in the 20s. Women had no economic independence and there was no state support for mothers. The church was the power. Child mortality was very high and sex was sinful. There are probably similar sites all over the island.
The contempt of respectable Ireland for vulnerable people was fathomless.  But at least it wasn't heathen like England. ...

I honestly don't know what to say. Absolutely horrible and disgusting. As Gaillimh Iarthar said, this could be the worst yet. Maddens and sickens me. Just wondering if there are any more like it in the country?

The religious order states that when they closed they gave all records to Galway County Council. These records will have to be fully examined to see what form of recording deaths of infants was maintained, what medical treatment was provided and who if anyone signed death certificates. Of course it is likely also that there are many people who do not want it known that they were born in a Mother and Baby home or were resident there. The investigation will have to be very aware of this and respect peoples privacy.

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_and_Child_Scheme

In 1948 Dr.Noël Browne, a new T.D. for Clann na Poblachta, and a socialist, became Minister for Health in a coalition government. Browne was an admirer of Fianna Fáil's 1947 Health Act[4] and intended to implement its provisions as part of a plan to reduce the alarmingly high rate of child mortality (especially from tuberculosis) in Ireland,[5][6][7] modernise the Irish healthcare system and make it free and without means-testing for mothers and their children up to the age of 16.[4] He was impressed with the National Health Service in the United Kingdom[8] and successful medical procedural reforms in Denmark which reduced child mortality.[9] With vigour he tackled the domestic health issues and was acclaimed for the results.[10]
Then in July 1950, Browne's department formally submitted the scheme to the Irish Medical Association.[11] The Association had originally opposed the 1947 bill, mentioning the "socialisation of medicine."[4][10] They were supported in the coalition cabinet by the experienced Fine Gael T.D. Dr.Thomas F. O'Higgins, the Minister for Defence and a former member of the executive of the Irish Medical Association. More important was the opposition of the Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuaid, who summoned Browne to his palace[8] and read out a letter to be sent to the Taoiseach, John A. Costello, penned by Dr.James Staunton, Bishop of Ferns, which contained, "...they [the Archbishops and bishops] feel bound by their office to consider whether the proposals are in accordance with Catholic moral teaching," and, "Doctors trained in institutions in which we have no confidence may be appointed as medical officers ... and may give gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles.[12][13] The letter stated that health provision and physical education for children were solely the "right" of parents and not the State's concern. Archbishop McQuaid was the chairman of some boards of directors of Dublin hospitals. He exercised considerable influence concerning medical appointments and control over the religious orders whose members made up much of the administrative and management staff in hospitals, sanatoria etc.[14][15] Concerning the term "moral teaching" in the letter to the Taoiseach, Browne received supportive advice - in secret - from Francis Cremin, a Maynooth professor of theology and canon law.[8] Some bishops, McQuaid and others feared the scheme could pave the way for abortion and birth control. Though some Catholic Church leaders may have been privately sympathetic to Browne and wished to reach an accommodation, what was viewed as Browne's tactless handling of the Catholic Church forced the moderates into silence, allowing the anti-Mother and Child Scheme members of the hierarchy under McQuaid to set the agenda.[16]

What the hell is "gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles"?? :o

Ireland was a sick, disgusting place back then.

Quote from: J70 on March 04, 2017, 09:07:34 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_and_Child_Scheme

In 1948 Dr.Noël Browne, a new T.D. for Clann na Poblachta, and a socialist, became Minister for Health in a coalition government. Browne was an admirer of Fianna Fáil's 1947 Health Act[4] and intended to implement its provisions as part of a plan to reduce the alarmingly high rate of child mortality (especially from tuberculosis) in Ireland,[5][6][7] modernise the Irish healthcare system and make it free and without means-testing for mothers and their children up to the age of 16.[4] He was impressed with the National Health Service in the United Kingdom[8] and successful medical procedural reforms in Denmark which reduced child mortality.[9] With vigour he tackled the domestic health issues and was acclaimed for the results.[10]
Then in July 1950, Browne's department formally submitted the scheme to the Irish Medical Association.[11] The Association had originally opposed the 1947 bill, mentioning the "socialisation of medicine."[4][10] They were supported in the coalition cabinet by the experienced Fine Gael T.D. Dr.Thomas F. O'Higgins, the Minister for Defence and a former member of the executive of the Irish Medical Association. More important was the opposition of the Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuaid, who summoned Browne to his palace[8] and read out a letter to be sent to the Taoiseach, John A. Costello, penned by Dr.James Staunton, Bishop of Ferns, which contained, "...they [the Archbishops and bishops] feel bound by their office to consider whether the proposals are in accordance with Catholic moral teaching," and, "Doctors trained in institutions in which we have no confidence may be appointed as medical officers ... and may give gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles.[12][13] The letter stated that health provision and physical education for children were solely the "right" of parents and not the State's concern. Archbishop McQuaid was the chairman of some boards of directors of Dublin hospitals. He exercised considerable influence concerning medical appointments and control over the religious orders whose members made up much of the administrative and management staff in hospitals, sanatoria etc.[14][15] Concerning the term "moral teaching" in the letter to the Taoiseach, Browne received supportive advice - in secret - from Francis Cremin, a Maynooth professor of theology and canon law.[8] Some bishops, McQuaid and others feared the scheme could pave the way for abortion and birth control. Though some Catholic Church leaders may have been privately sympathetic to Browne and wished to reach an accommodation, what was viewed as Browne's tactless handling of the Catholic Church forced the moderates into silence, allowing the anti-Mother and Child Scheme members of the hierarchy under McQuaid to set the agenda.[16]

What the hell is "gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles"?? :o

Ireland was a sick, disgusting place back then.

Symphisiotomy would have been part of it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphysiotomy
It is estimated that 1,500 women unknowingly and without consent underwent symphysiotomies during childbirth in the Republic of Ireland between 1944—1984.[12] A 2012 study found that many of the women say the Catholic church "encouraged, if not insisted upon, symphysiotomies" [13] It has been suggested that during that period, non-Catholic doctors recommended sterilisation of women after three Caesarean section operations; while Catholic doctors usually recommended "compassionate hysterectomies" as a solution to the prohibition on sterilisations

That is f**king sick.

Inge Morath was an Austrian photographer who went to Puck Fair in Killorglin in 1954. It was a different world.
I imagine a good few of the dead babies in Tuam would have been itinerants.

http://pro.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2K7O3R1PHCKI

The church had an iron grip on sexual matters and anyone who fell foul was treated brutally.

Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2017, 09:14:57 AM

Quote from: J70 on March 04, 2017, 09:07:34 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_and_Child_Scheme

In 1948 Dr.Noël Browne, a new T.D. for Clann na Poblachta, and a socialist, became Minister for Health in a coalition government. Browne was an admirer of Fianna Fáil's 1947 Health Act[4] and intended to implement its provisions as part of a plan to reduce the alarmingly high rate of child mortality (especially from tuberculosis) in Ireland,[5][6][7] modernise the Irish healthcare system and make it free and without means-testing for mothers and their children up to the age of 16.[4] He was impressed with the National Health Service in the United Kingdom[8] and successful medical procedural reforms in Denmark which reduced child mortality.[9] With vigour he tackled the domestic health issues and was acclaimed for the results.[10]
Then in July 1950, Browne's department formally submitted the scheme to the Irish Medical Association.[11] The Association had originally opposed the 1947 bill, mentioning the "socialisation of medicine."[4][10] They were supported in the coalition cabinet by the experienced Fine Gael T.D. Dr.Thomas F. O'Higgins, the Minister for Defence and a former member of the executive of the Irish Medical Association. More important was the opposition of the Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuaid, who summoned Browne to his palace[8] and read out a letter to be sent to the Taoiseach, John A. Costello, penned by Dr.James Staunton, Bishop of Ferns, which contained, "...they [the Archbishops and bishops] feel bound by their office to consider whether the proposals are in accordance with Catholic moral teaching," and, "Doctors trained in institutions in which we have no confidence may be appointed as medical officers ... and may give gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles.[12][13] The letter stated that health provision and physical education for children were solely the "right" of parents and not the State's concern. Archbishop McQuaid was the chairman of some boards of directors of Dublin hospitals. He exercised considerable influence concerning medical appointments and control over the religious orders whose members made up much of the administrative and management staff in hospitals, sanatoria etc.[14][15] Concerning the term "moral teaching" in the letter to the Taoiseach, Browne received supportive advice - in secret - from Francis Cremin, a Maynooth professor of theology and canon law.[8] Some bishops, McQuaid and others feared the scheme could pave the way for abortion and birth control. Though some Catholic Church leaders may have been privately sympathetic to Browne and wished to reach an accommodation, what was viewed as Browne's tactless handling of the Catholic Church forced the moderates into silence, allowing the anti-Mother and Child Scheme members of the hierarchy under McQuaid to set the agenda.[16]

What the hell is "gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles"?? :o

Ireland was a sick, disgusting place back then.

Symphisiotomy would have been part of it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphysiotomy
It is estimated that 1,500 women unknowingly and without consent underwent symphysiotomies during childbirth in the Republic of Ireland between 1944—1984.[12] A 2012 study found that many of the women say the Catholic church "encouraged, if not insisted upon, symphysiotomies" [13] It has been suggested that during that period, non-Catholic doctors recommended sterilisation of women after three Caesarean section operations; while Catholic doctors usually recommended "compassionate hysterectomies" as a solution to the prohibition on sterilisations

This article 'The murder of infants'? Symphysiotomy in Ireland, 1944–66  offers a comprehensive account
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-murder-of-infants-symphysiotomy-in-ireland-1944-66/ (http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-murder-of-infants-symphysiotomy-in-ireland-1944-66/)

However, I don't get the direct connection between that catholic church approved practice of a highly dangerous medical procedure carried out in hospitals  and the mass grave at the Mother and baby home in Tuam.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/13/mother-behind-galway-childrens-mass-grave-story (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/13/mother-behind-galway-childrens-mass-grave-story)

Quote from: Avondhu star on March 04, 2017, 08:32:02 AM
The religious order states that when they closed they gave all records to Galway County Council. These records will have to be fully examined to see what form of recording deaths of infants was maintained, what medical treatment was provided and who if anyone signed death certificates. Of course it is likely also that there are many people who do not want it known that they were born in a Mother and Baby home or were resident there. The investigation will have to be very aware of this and respect peoples privacy.

I heard on radio yesterday they got a woman who worked (and lived) in the home as a cleaner to sign all the death certs. None of the nuns put their names to them.

Quote from: Main Street on March 04, 2017, 10:45:43 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2017, 09:14:57 AM

Quote from: J70 on March 04, 2017, 09:07:34 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_and_Child_Scheme

In 1948 Dr.Noël Browne, a new T.D. for Clann na Poblachta, and a socialist, became Minister for Health in a coalition government. Browne was an admirer of Fianna Fáil's 1947 Health Act[4] and intended to implement its provisions as part of a plan to reduce the alarmingly high rate of child mortality (especially from tuberculosis) in Ireland,[5][6][7] modernise the Irish healthcare system and make it free and without means-testing for mothers and their children up to the age of 16.[4] He was impressed with the National Health Service in the United Kingdom[8] and successful medical procedural reforms in Denmark which reduced child mortality.[9] With vigour he tackled the domestic health issues and was acclaimed for the results.[10]
Then in July 1950, Browne's department formally submitted the scheme to the Irish Medical Association.[11] The Association had originally opposed the 1947 bill, mentioning the "socialisation of medicine."[4][10] They were supported in the coalition cabinet by the experienced Fine Gael T.D. Dr.Thomas F. O'Higgins, the Minister for Defence and a former member of the executive of the Irish Medical Association. More important was the opposition of the Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuaid, who summoned Browne to his palace[8] and read out a letter to be sent to the Taoiseach, John A. Costello, penned by Dr.James Staunton, Bishop of Ferns, which contained, "...they [the Archbishops and bishops] feel bound by their office to consider whether the proposals are in accordance with Catholic moral teaching," and, "Doctors trained in institutions in which we have no confidence may be appointed as medical officers ... and may give gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles.[12][13] The letter stated that health provision and physical education for children were solely the "right" of parents and not the State's concern. Archbishop McQuaid was the chairman of some boards of directors of Dublin hospitals. He exercised considerable influence concerning medical appointments and control over the religious orders whose members made up much of the administrative and management staff in hospitals, sanatoria etc.[14][15] Concerning the term "moral teaching" in the letter to the Taoiseach, Browne received supportive advice - in secret - from Francis Cremin, a Maynooth professor of theology and canon law.[8] Some bishops, McQuaid and others feared the scheme could pave the way for abortion and birth control. Though some Catholic Church leaders may have been privately sympathetic to Browne and wished to reach an accommodation, what was viewed as Browne's tactless handling of the Catholic Church forced the moderates into silence, allowing the anti-Mother and Child Scheme members of the hierarchy under McQuaid to set the agenda.[16]

What the hell is "gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles"?? :o

Ireland was a sick, disgusting place back then.

Symphisiotomy would have been part of it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphysiotomy
It is estimated that 1,500 women unknowingly and without consent underwent symphysiotomies during childbirth in the Republic of Ireland between 1944—1984.[12] A 2012 study found that many of the women say the Catholic church "encouraged, if not insisted upon, symphysiotomies" [13] It has been suggested that during that period, non-Catholic doctors recommended sterilisation of women after three Caesarean section operations; while Catholic doctors usually recommended "compassionate hysterectomies" as a solution to the prohibition on sterilisations

This article 'The murder of infants'? Symphysiotomy in Ireland, 1944–66  offers a comprehensive account
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-murder-of-infants-symphysiotomy-in-ireland-1944-66/ (http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-murder-of-infants-symphysiotomy-in-ireland-1944-66/)

However, I don't get the direct connection between that catholic church approved practice of a highly dangerous medical procedure carried out in hospitals  and the mass grave at the Mother and baby home in Tuam.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/13/mother-behind-galway-childrens-mass-grave-story (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/13/mother-behind-galway-childrens-mass-grave-story)

very interesting link
The church was opposed to efforts to take care of vulnerable mothers
"Doctors trained in institutions in which we have no confidence may be appointed as medical officers ... and may give gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles"
Abortion and contraception were not permitted but symphisiotomy was
This graveyard was part of the same system

Every time I think of this I feel physically sick. The sickos that are responsible for this should be named and shamed - even if they are no longer alive.

The cruelty with which the Catholic Church dealt with people it perceived to have broken their sex obsessed rules was and still is in places (don't forget up until recently Africans were being taught condoms give you HIV) horrific. Together with their facilitation and protection of paedophiles and their vicious tormenting of their victims it's really past time that something meaningful and honest was done by the Catholic orders to show they're actually sorry for what happened. They talk of a truth commission up north for the troubles - I think more damage has been done by agents of the church on this island. Yet they still preach to people on how to live their lives, they still own vast amounts of land and buildings while telling us to help the less well off. The hypocrisy must end if they're to have any credibility.

Sorry for going off on one....this is how I genuinely feel. Mostly when I think of the Catholic Church I feel sick.

The nuns didn't operate in a vacuum. They operated with the consent of the wider society

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fears-that-tuam-mass-grave-may-extend-beneath-local-houses-35500870.html

"They were illegitimate children. They weren't wanted"

Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2017, 11:37:29 AM
The nuns didn't operate in a vacuum. They operated with the consent of the wider society.

This is true, but the wider society didn't get its ideology from a vacuum either. The primary source of all this evil is the baleful influence on society of the dogma of the Catholic Church that drove this truly evil treatment of human beings. But we should all be ashamed of ourselves that it was not until very recent times that we stood up as a people and began the process of expelling this evil influence from our society. Sadly, though, there are still a few who continue to resist what they call this "agenda".

Quote from: Hardy on March 04, 2017, 11:46:56 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2017, 11:37:29 AM
The nuns didn't operate in a vacuum. They operated with the consent of the wider society.

This is true, but the wider society didn't get its ideology from a vacuum either. The primary source of all this evil is the baleful influence on society of the dogma of the Catholic Church that drove this truly evil treatment of human beings. But we should all be ashamed of ourselves that it was not until very recent times that we stood up as a people and began the process of expelling this evil influence from our society. Sadly, though, there are still a few who continue to resist what they call this "agenda".

The people that ran Irish society from the 20s to the 60s came from a very restricted pool. Davitt warned about creating a conservative social class of small farmers but he was overruled.  The economic model was based on exporting beef and dairy products.  Hundreds of thousands of people had no choice but to emigrate. Most of the people who might have changed things left.  Christy Ring and Mick Mackey were sporting legends and all there was for them to do workwise was a job as a driver.

That home closed in 1961 which was around the time that FF gave up on the economic model and opened things up.

It is a massive story

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/04/irish-excavation-confirms-mass-grave-of-babies-toddlers-at-former-home-for-unwed-mothers/

Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2017, 10:24:27 AM
Inge Morath was an Austrian photographer who went to Puck Fair in Killorglin in 1954. It was a different world.
I imagine a good few of the dead babies in Tuam would have been itinerants.

http://pro.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2K7O3R1PHCKI

The church had an iron grip on sexual matters and anyone who fell foul was treated brutally.

I doubt many Travellers in any at all would have been in this home.....to this day Travellers have very traditional views on sex outside marriage and co habitation

Quote from: whitey on March 04, 2017, 01:19:44 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2017, 10:24:27 AM
Inge Morath was an Austrian photographer who went to Puck Fair in Killorglin in 1954. It was a different world.
I imagine a good few of the dead babies in Tuam would have been itinerants.

http://pro.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ALID=2K7O3R1PHCKI

The church had an iron grip on sexual matters and anyone who fell foul was treated brutally.

I doubt many Travellers in any at all would have been in this home.....to this day Travellers have very traditional views on sex outside marriage and co habitation

Catherine Corless is quoted in the WaPo article and she suspects many cases may have involved rape

Quote from: Hardy on March 04, 2017, 11:46:56 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2017, 11:37:29 AM
The nuns didn't operate in a vacuum. They operated with the consent of the wider society.

This is true, but the wider society didn't get its ideology from a vacuum either. The primary source of all this evil is the baleful influence on society of the dogma of the Catholic Church that drove this truly evil treatment of human beings. But we should all be ashamed of ourselves that it was not until very recent times that we stood up as a people and began the process of expelling this evil influence from our society. Sadly, though, there are still a few who continue to resist what they call this "agenda".

I feel many emotions over this event, but shame is not one of them.
That could just be a religious guilt thing  :)

The symphysiotomy medical procedures has a direct line to a religious dogma,
to do with the "sin" of sterilisation and contraception.
The catholic church is responsible for destructive dogmas  but there is much more than the effects of religious dogma here, there is a deeper one, the dogma of poor people being stigmatised just for being poor, for just being at the lowest strata of society.

This is an ever present dogma, even exists long after a society has put good distance and loosened the shackles between the state and  church dogma.
Pre 1946, infant mortality figures were very high but always much higher among the poor and even higher still with the infants of the unmarried mother, because the health of those unmarried women was the poorest.
Factually, the main reasons for the very sharp fall in infant mortality during 1940s was due to enforced improvements in sanitation, drinking water, food hygiene and rubbish disposal.
I'd say such mother children homes (Tuam) were underfunded and overcrowded, society's dumping ground for the poorest of the poor. Reports that I read previous, indicated that authorities in various counties absconded responsibility and dumped children into these institutions where they died due to neglect and poverty related diseases common at that time but rampant in such homes.

In the main, the poorest sent their single mother children to these homes or they ended up being sent there, I've read research that stated thousands of unmarried catholic mothers kept their children over the decades since the establishment of the free state, some research even claimed that most unmarried mother kept their children.
Definitely catholic church dogma had an evil influence on women, children and society   but it's far from being a single factor and far from being a main factor  in this Tuam horror.

There were other mother baby homes in Castlepollard in Westmeath, Cork, Sean Ross in Wexford and 3 in Dublin according to Catherine Corless. There must have been more than that.

Davy Carton of the Sawdoctors had a crucial role in this debacle.He even sang about leaving the girls in Tuam before setting off on the N17.

Ignore the obvious trolling.

The parents of these girls were brainwashed into believing that they would burn in hell for all eternity unless they followed the direction of the church on such matters

Quote from: Main Street on March 04, 2017, 03:08:40 PM
Ignore the obvious trolling.

That's it. Another addition to the ignore list. I just can't be dealing with it any more.

Quote from: whitey on March 04, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
The parents of these girls were brainwashed into believing that they would burn in hell for all eternity unless they followed the direction of the church on such matters

Not to mention the suffering they would have to endure on earth! I know of two illegitimate women in our area. They were saved from industrial institutions by people who were strong enough to keep them. They are in their 70's now! Both are different Characters - One is rather shy and reserved from what one can only describe as abuse growing up the other is as hard as nails. There had to endure the BASTARD stigma all their lives.

Quote from: From the Bunker on March 04, 2017, 04:11:26 PM

Quote from: whitey on March 04, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
The parents of these girls were brainwashed into believing that they would burn in hell for all eternity unless they followed the direction of the church on such matters

Not to mention the suffering they would have to endure on earth! I know of two illegitimate women in our area. They were saved from industrial institutions by people who were strong enough to keep them. They are in their 70's now! Both are different Characters - One is rather shy and reserved from what one can only describe as abuse growing up the other is as hard as nails. There had to endure the b**tard stigma all their lives.

They didnt get pregnant by themselves and of course its popular to say that the fathers was the local rich man and big farmer when it usually was just some ordinary young lad getting his oats

Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
Davy Carton of the Sawdoctors had a crucial role in this debacle.He even sang about leaving the girls in Tuam before setting off on the N17.

You got to be f**king kidding me.

"Children of sin" in a country that didn't allow contraception or abortion and with no State support for unmarried women. Their mothers had no chance.

Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
Davy Carton of the Sawdoctors had a crucial role in this debacle.He even sang about leaving the girls in Tuam before setting off on the N17.

You are pure tr**p Fearon, a pure fcukin tr**p. You should be banned for that tripe.

why is our education system still controlled by the fcukers?

Quote from: GaillimhIarthair on March 04, 2017, 07:46:57 PM

Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
Davy Carton of the Sawdoctors had a crucial role in this debacle.He even sang about leaving the girls in Tuam before setting off on the N17.

You are pure tr**p Fearon, a pure fcukin tr**p. You should be banned for that tripe.

Not a christian bone in his body no matter how many times he goes to mass.
Despicable cretin

Quote from: johnneycool on March 04, 2017, 09:38:37 PM

Quote from: GaillimhIarthair on March 04, 2017, 07:46:57 PM

Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
Davy Carton of the Sawdoctors had a crucial role in this debacle.He even sang about leaving the girls in Tuam before setting off on the N17.

You are pure tr**p Fearon, a pure fcukin tr**p. You should be banned for that tripe.

Not a christian bone in his body no matter how many times he goes to mass.
Despicable cretin

Nail on the head lads. Use the ignore function....we can't help him.

Of all the scandals that have been documented as fact, this discovery has to be single most heart rendering event.

You got to be f**king kidding me.


Shamrock Shore,did you mean that as a pun?

This is tragic of course,but a product of an era when atonement for sin was very much in vogue.I got many a belt myself in catholic primary education,and my late mother and her contemporaries were beaten black and blue by nuns in school. It did not impair her faith in any way.

But it does provide a field day for anti Catholics,and their pathetic inference that the modern church is somehow responsible.I suspect these very same people have little or no actual sympathy for the victims of this scandal,but actually revel in any opportunity to attack the Catholic Church.

So 'tragic' you joked about it?

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2017, 11:22:20 AM
Every time I think of this I feel physically sick. The sickos that are responsible for this should be named and shamed - even if they are no longer alive.

The cruelty with which the Catholic Church dealt with people it perceived to have broken their sex obsessed rules was and still is in places (don't forget up until recently Africans were being taught condoms give you HIV) horrific. Together with their facilitation and protection of paedophiles and their vicious tormenting of their victims it's really past time that something meaningful and honest was done by the Catholic orders to show they're actually sorry for what happened. They talk of a truth commission up north for the troubles - I think more damage has been done by agents of the church on this island. Yet they still preach to people on how to live their lives, they still own vast amounts of land and buildings while telling us to help the less well off. The hypocrisy must end if they're to have any credibility.

Sorry for going off on one....this is how I genuinely feel. Mostly when I think of the Catholic Church I feel sick.

Great post.

Quote from: hardstation on March 04, 2017, 10:41:25 PM

Quote from: laoislad on March 04, 2017, 10:27:09 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2017, 11:22:20 AM
Every time I think of this I feel physically sick. The sickos that are responsible for this should be named and shamed - even if they are no longer alive.

The cruelty with which the Catholic Church dealt with people it perceived to have broken their sex obsessed rules was and still is in places (don't forget up until recently Africans were being taught condoms give you HIV) horrific. Together with their facilitation and protection of paedophiles and their vicious tormenting of their victims it's really past time that something meaningful and honest was done by the Catholic orders to show they're actually sorry for what happened. They talk of a truth commission up north for the troubles - I think more damage has been done by agents of the church on this island. Yet they still preach to people on how to live their lives, they still own vast amounts of land and buildings while telling us to help the less well off. The hypocrisy must end if they're to have any credibility.

Sorry for going off on one....this is how I genuinely feel. Mostly when I think of the Catholic Church I feel sick.

Great post.

Indeed. I have a question, going off topic. Do you put your children through the Catholic sacraments? I ask this with no agenda btw, I'm just interested. I have no children and feel very much like yourselves on the Catholic Church in Ireland.

I also appreciate that this type of question has probably been discussed before.

I know where you are coming from and I suppose you do it because it's "the thing to do", and it's a big thing for the child (communion & confirmation) but yeah I wouldn't give the church the time of day normally. I suppose you would fairly alienate the child among their peers if you excluded them from communion/confirmation

Yes to that. It grates with me somewhat but it's simply a matter of the other half having the say. For me it's a game and I don't really care enough for it to be too divisive. They do nothing beyond what school asks of them.

Quote from: Minder on March 04, 2017, 10:48:02 PM

Quote from: hardstation on March 04, 2017, 10:41:25 PM

Quote from: laoislad on March 04, 2017, 10:27:09 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2017, 11:22:20 AM
Every time I think of this I feel physically sick. The sickos that are responsible for this should be named and shamed - even if they are no longer alive.

The cruelty with which the Catholic Church dealt with people it perceived to have broken their sex obsessed rules was and still is in places (don't forget up until recently Africans were being taught condoms give you HIV) horrific. Together with their facilitation and protection of paedophiles and their vicious tormenting of their victims it's really past time that something meaningful and honest was done by the Catholic orders to show they're actually sorry for what happened. They talk of a truth commission up north for the troubles - I think more damage has been done by agents of the church on this island. Yet they still preach to people on how to live their lives, they still own vast amounts of land and buildings while telling us to help the less well off. The hypocrisy must end if they're to have any credibility.

Sorry for going off on one....this is how I genuinely feel. Mostly when I think of the Catholic Church I feel sick.

Great post.

Indeed. I have a question, going off topic. Do you put your children through the Catholic sacraments? I ask this with no agenda btw, I'm just interested. I have no children and feel very much like yourselves on the Catholic Church in Ireland.

I also appreciate that this type of question has probably been discussed before.

I know where you are coming from and I suppose you do it because it's "the thing to do", and it's a big thing for the child (communion & confirmation) but yeah I wouldn't give the church the time of day normally. I suppose you would fairly alienate the child among their peers if you excluded them from communion/confirmation

I was born a catholic but I cut the cord completely when aged 12.
My children would hardly know what is meant by the term catholic, though they were bemused on occasion by my mother's actions and images of the crucifix around her house
When it came time for confirmation they did a non-religious confirmation, but one based on morals.

I may be a bad Catholic but I hope I'm a good Christian

This Tuam horror was not a catholic religious ritual,  there is nothing in the catholic religious dogma that justifies this or caused this to happen.
The State criminalised unmarried mothers in those days, not unlike many other countries who were not "catholicised". Humanitarian forces within the free state in the 1930s brought into being the concept of mother baby homes, to take these poor woman out of the criminal system, but the State neglected their sworn constitutional duty of care to these women, the families and community around these women also neglected their duty of care, these women for the most part were from the poorest strata of society.
Plenty of other unmarried catholic mothers received support from their families and community and kept their babies.
The catholic church had a duty of care but so also did others have a sworn duty of care.

This is not stuff of yesteryear.  It was still happening in the 1980s!  We've come a long way...

Quote from: StGallsGAA on March 04, 2017, 11:59:16 PM
This is not stuff of yesteryear.  It was still happening in the 1980s!  We've come a long way...

This Tuam mother baby home closed in 1960, it's thought  the dead children were mostly buried in the 1950's,
altogether there were 12 such homes.

Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 10:10:23 PM
This is tragic of course,but a product of an era when atonement for sin was very much in vogue.I got many a belt myself in catholic primary education,and my late mother and her contemporaries were beaten black and blue by nuns in school. It did not impair her faith in any way.

But it does provide a field day for anti Catholics,and their pathetic inference that the modern church is somehow responsible.I suspect these very same people have little or no actual sympathy for the victims of this scandal,but actually revel in any opportunity to attack the Catholic Church.

The problem is that the Catholic Church has left itself so open to attack. It must be one of the easiest targets at this stage. And all of the crimes are to the most vulnerable - Women and Children.

The social/economic stigma of illegitimacy was the main driver of this tragedy. The catholic church ran most of the social welfare/medical/education  system as it was before the State started funding things so schools, hospitals and institutions to support single mothers were all provided by the religious orders under Fianna  Fail and early iterations of Fine Gael.  The Government did very little. The church did a decent job on the schools and hospitals.

Stigma only works when it is adopted by the population. Shunting women out of sight was a decision supported by the society. It happens in other countries now. The power of shame and exclusion is very strong. Ask gay people.

I know 2 families where a teenage daughter became pregnant in 1993, which was maybe at the tail end regarding the influence of the social views of the previous generations.

In the first family, the father was actually Protestant,  a bank manager. His daughter was in second year in Trinity. She had a relationship with a local man. There was no question of her keeping the baby. He decided. The child was adopted over the wishes of its father. The daughter went abroad and only came back twice. The emotional fallout was absolutely catastrophic. When her mother died they mentioned all of the grandchildren at the funeral. Except the child. 

In the second family the mother kept the child but separated from the father. One of her sisters told me that when her father heard that his daughter was pregnant he hit the roof. He said everything to the sister but not to his daughter and accepted the situation. Asked a few years ago he said his grandson changed his life.

Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 10:04:39 PM


You got to be f**king kidding me.


Shamrock Shore,did you mean that as a pun?

Reporting this to moderator. You're a vile person, s truly horrible man.

Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 10:04:39 PM


You got to be f**king kidding me.


Shamrock Shore,did you mean that as a pun?

Oh God. He thinks I would joke about such a thing.
He thinks I am like him.

FFS.

No Tony. I did not mean that as a pun.

Jesus.

The hypocrisy on this thread is truly unbelievable.Full of fake statistics,half truths and downright insults and potentially libelous comments against the Catholic Church >:(.

For your info there was high infant mortality rates up to the 60s.The nuns did not cause these deaths.It was common practice for corpses of young and old to be buried in unmarked graves.Not so long ago in Portadown the corpses of 40 nuns were exhumed and re interred in consecrated grounds.

So acquaint yourself with the facts before spouting manufactured indignation.

Also it is time whoever moderates this board to do their jobs and nip libellous threads like this in the bud😠😠

Aye but sure until they do you joke away about it. You unbelievable **** of a person

The Nuns really were c***ts. There was a woman on the Late Late show on Friday telling her story of what she had to endure in one of these homes. Horrible bitches the lot of them.

Quote from: T Fearon on March 05, 2017, 12:35:14 PM
The hypocrisy on this thread is truly unbelievable.Full of fake statistics,half truths and downright insults and potentially libelous comments against the Catholic Church >:(.

For your info there was high infant mortality rates up to the 60s.The nuns did not cause these deaths.It was common practice for corpses of young and old to be buried in unmarked graves.Not so long ago in Portadown the corpses of 40 nuns were exhumed and re interred in consecrated grounds.

So acquaint yourself with the facts before spouting manufactured indignation.

Also it is time whoever moderates this board to do their jobs and nip libellous threads like this in the bud😠😠

libellous to whom? the babies? their families?

keep your head in the sand

Quote from: T Fearon on March 05, 2017, 12:35:14 PM
The hypocrisy on this thread is truly unbelievable.Full of fake statistics,half truths and downright insults and potentially libelous comments against the Catholic Church >:(.

For your info there was high infant mortality rates up to the 60s.The nuns did not cause these deaths.It was common practice for corpses of young and old to be buried in unmarked graves.Not so long ago in Portadown the corpses of 40 nuns were exhumed and re interred in consecrated grounds.

So acquaint yourself with the facts before spouting manufactured indignation.

Also it is time whoever moderates this board to do their jobs and nip libellous threads like this in the bud😠😠

Neglect was whose fault?

Neglect still occurs in all walks of life.It is the fault of individuals not of any institution.

Is there evidence of abuse against these Bon Secours nuns recorded in the Historic Abuse Inquiry?
There's plenty of witness evidence of cruelty, physical/sexual abuse and sadism, directed against the Nazareths and other nun orders.
According to Catherine Corless, 796 children died in the period 1925 - 1961 in Tuam
Each death was registered and records were kept.
Over a 2 year period she purchased death certificates @ €4 each, total cost €3,184
Causes of deaths were recorded. However there were no burial records.
"Many of the children were buried in an unofficial graveyard at the rear of the former home, a small grassy space has been attended for decades by local people who have planted roses and other flowers there, and put up a grotto in one corner."

She says between 1925 - 1937  some 200 infants died in the institution.
That death rate was as high, if not higher than the worst slums in urban Ireland

The questions of due care would definitely arise after 1946 when enforced all round sanitation improvements were implemented around the country and subsequently the infant death rate dropped dramatically . Nevertheless, the infant death rate in this institution remained at these highest levels right through the 1950s.

There was a home out in Clifden where the nuns would punish the kids by sticking needles into the children and injecting them with water. I am not surprised with what happened in Tuam.

Quote from: ONeill on March 04, 2017, 10:51:07 PM
Yes to that. It grates with me somewhat but it's simply a matter of the other half having the say. For me it's a game and I don't really care enough for it to be too divisive. They do nothing beyond what school asks of them.

Same here with us, my son is getting ready for his first communion at the moment. Last year at Easter they were talking about Jesus rising from the dead on Easter Sunday, on the way home he asked me was Jesus a zombie ;D

Quote from: T Fearon on March 05, 2017, 01:59:47 PM
Neglect still occurs in all walks of life.It is the fault of individuals not of any institution.

Didn't work at Nuremberg

Quote from: T Fearon on March 05, 2017, 01:59:47 PM
Neglect still occurs in all walks of life.It is the fault of individuals not of any institution.

If the Fuhrer knew about what was happening there would be hell to pay

Quote from: FL/MAYO on March 05, 2017, 03:15:22 PM

Quote from: ONeill on March 04, 2017, 10:51:07 PM
Yes to that. It grates with me somewhat but it's simply a matter of the other half having the say. For me it's a game and I don't really care enough for it to be too divisive. They do nothing beyond what school asks of them.

Same here with us, my son is getting ready for his first communion at the moment. Last year at Easter they were talking about Jesus rising from the dead on Easter Sunday, on the way home he asked me was Jesus a zombie ;D

;D Revisionist!

Sisters of mercy ?.


Very sad all round. A truly horrible story.

the names

http://www.thejournal.ie/list-names-tuam-babies-children-3270019-Mar2017/

Quote from: FL/MAYO on March 05, 2017, 03:15:22 PM

Quote from: ONeill on March 04, 2017, 10:51:07 PM
Yes to that. It grates with me somewhat but it's simply a matter of the other half having the say. For me it's a game and I don't really care enough for it to be too divisive. They do nothing beyond what school asks of them.

Same here with us, my son is getting ready for his first communion at the moment. Last year at Easter they were talking about Jesus rising from the dead on Easter Sunday, on the way home he asked me was Jesus a zombie ;D

He must be quite an intelligent child taking an abstract notion like the resurrection and relating it to his own life experience but I would have to ask why is he being allowed to watch the Walking Dead?

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 05, 2017, 06:47:04 PM

Quote from: FL/MAYO on March 05, 2017, 03:15:22 PM

Quote from: ONeill on March 04, 2017, 10:51:07 PM
Yes to that. It grates with me somewhat but it's simply a matter of the other half having the say. For me it's a game and I don't really care enough for it to be too divisive. They do nothing beyond what school asks of them.

Same here with us, my son is getting ready for his first communion at the moment. Last year at Easter they were talking about Jesus rising from the dead on Easter Sunday, on the way home he asked me was Jesus a zombie ;D

He must be quite an intelligent child taking an abstract notion like the resurrection and relating it to his own life experience but I would have to ask why is he being allowed to watch the Walking Dead?

Lol, I have no idea where he got the idea from, but I was quite proud of his thinking. It made perfect sense to me.anyway :)

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/magdalene-survivors-call-for-the-excavation-of-180-sites-1.2998902

Calling for a wider disinterment programme, the Justice for Magdalenes research group said it had compiled a list of 180 institutions, agencies and individuals charged with the care of unmarried mothers and their children.

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 05, 2017, 06:47:04 PM

Quote from: FL/MAYO on March 05, 2017, 03:15:22 PM

Quote from: ONeill on March 04, 2017, 10:51:07 PM
Yes to that. It grates with me somewhat but it's simply a matter of the other half having the say. For me it's a game and I don't really care enough for it to be too divisive. They do nothing beyond what school asks of them.

Same here with us, my son is getting ready for his first communion at the moment. Last year at Easter they were talking about Jesus rising from the dead on Easter Sunday, on the way home he asked me was Jesus a zombie ;D

He must be quite an intelligent child taking an abstract notion like the resurrection and relating it to his own life experience but I would have to ask why is he being allowed to watch the Walking Dead?

Young kid culture is full of zombies these days. Whether its the Hotel Transylvania films, Minecraft, the zombie vegetables from the Monsters v Aliens shorts etc. Standard stuff now, even for pre-schoolers.

Quote from: Minder on March 04, 2017, 10:48:02 PM

Quote from: hardstation on March 04, 2017, 10:41:25 PM

Quote from: laoislad on March 04, 2017, 10:27:09 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2017, 11:22:20 AM
Every time I think of this I feel physically sick. The sickos that are responsible for this should be named and shamed - even if they are no longer alive.

The cruelty with which the Catholic Church dealt with people it perceived to have broken their sex obsessed rules was and still is in places (don't forget up until recently Africans were being taught condoms give you HIV) horrific. Together with their facilitation and protection of paedophiles and their vicious tormenting of their victims it's really past time that something meaningful and honest was done by the Catholic orders to show they're actually sorry for what happened. They talk of a truth commission up north for the troubles - I think more damage has been done by agents of the church on this island. Yet they still preach to people on how to live their lives, they still own vast amounts of land and buildings while telling us to help the less well off. The hypocrisy must end if they're to have any credibility.

Sorry for going off on one....this is how I genuinely feel. Mostly when I think of the Catholic Church I feel sick.

Great post.

Indeed. I have a question, going off topic. Do you put your children through the Catholic sacraments? I ask this with no agenda btw, I'm just interested. I have no children and feel very much like yourselves on the Catholic Church in Ireland.

I also appreciate that this type of question has probably been discussed before.

I know where you are coming from and I suppose you do it because it's "the thing to do", and it's a big thing for the child (communion & confirmation) but yeah I wouldn't give the church the time of day normally. I suppose you would fairly alienate the child among their peers if you excluded them from communion/confirmation

An excellent question and one which has bothered me for quite some time. I've tried to answer concisely a few times and failed so sorry if this is not a great explanation. I'm taking an active role in my kids religious education. I think it's best to put them forward for the sacrements with their peers and let them make their own way when they're old enough to do so. I don't want to single them out at a young age because of my beliefs/concerns when they can sort it out for themselves at a possibly more appropriate time. Kids can be cruel so creating a "difference" when not really necessary is something I'd rather avoid. Hope this makes sense.

One of the pluses of rearing your kids in the states and sending them to public school is that you don't have to deal with this stuff. My kids aren't baptized, and religion just isn't an issue in their lives as it doesn't really ever come up. My son did hear some other kid talking about Jesus once and asked me about it, but I simply explained that he was a make believe being that some people believed in. Christmas is all about Santa Claus, Easter is about the Easter Bunny. Ghosts are make believe and sources of fun at Halloween, just like vampires, zombies and witches. If, as they get older and learn more about this stuff, they decide they want to pursue it as adults, that's their choice.

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 06, 2017, 01:22:57 PM

Quote from: Minder on March 04, 2017, 10:48:02 PM

Quote from: hardstation on March 04, 2017, 10:41:25 PM

Quote from: laoislad on March 04, 2017, 10:27:09 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2017, 11:22:20 AM
Every time I think of this I feel physically sick. The sickos that are responsible for this should be named and shamed - even if they are no longer alive.

The cruelty with which the Catholic Church dealt with people it perceived to have broken their sex obsessed rules was and still is in places (don't forget up until recently Africans were being taught condoms give you HIV) horrific. Together with their facilitation and protection of paedophiles and their vicious tormenting of their victims it's really past time that something meaningful and honest was done by the Catholic orders to show they're actually sorry for what happened. They talk of a truth commission up north for the troubles - I think more damage has been done by agents of the church on this island. Yet they still preach to people on how to live their lives, they still own vast amounts of land and buildings while telling us to help the less well off. The hypocrisy must end if they're to have any credibility.

Sorry for going off on one....this is how I genuinely feel. Mostly when I think of the Catholic Church I feel sick.

Great post.

Indeed. I have a question, going off topic. Do you put your children through the Catholic sacraments? I ask this with no agenda btw, I'm just interested. I have no children and feel very much like yourselves on the Catholic Church in Ireland.

I also appreciate that this type of question has probably been discussed before.

I know where you are coming from and I suppose you do it because it's "the thing to do", and it's a big thing for the child (communion & confirmation) but yeah I wouldn't give the church the time of day normally. I suppose you would fairly alienate the child among their peers if you excluded them from communion/confirmation

An excellent question and one which has bothered me for quite some time. I've tried to answer concisely a few times and failed so sorry if this is not a great explanation. I'm taking an active role in my kids religious education. I think it's best to put them forward for the sacrements with their peers and let them make their own way when they're old enough to do so. I don't want to single them out at a young age because of my beliefs/concerns when they can sort it out for themselves at a possibly more appropriate time. Kids can be cruel so creating a "difference" when not really necessary is something I'd rather avoid. Hope this makes sense.

Well said again. I'd be much the same thinking as you and I think it's the right way to approach things.

Quote from: laoislad on March 06, 2017, 02:43:17 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 06, 2017, 01:22:57 PM

An excellent question and one which has bothered me for quite some time. I've tried to answer concisely a few times and failed so sorry if this is not a great explanation. I'm taking an active role in my kids religious education. I think it's best to put them forward for the sacrements with their peers and let them make their own way when they're old enough to do so. I don't want to single them out at a young age because of my beliefs/concerns when they can sort it out for themselves at a possibly more appropriate time. Kids can be cruel so creating a "difference" when not really necessary is something I'd rather avoid. Hope this makes sense.

Well said again. I'd be much the same thinking as you and I think it's the right way to approach things.

+1

Is it such a big deal among children to be confirmed into the catholic church, that it becomes the default action and those kids who don't go forward for confirmation would be shunned and taunted for not participating?
Are non-catholic children in primary and secondary school the subject of such bigotry?
I can certainly understand why a kid would not want to stand out but I didn't think confirmation would be one of those issues for children that it would inspire taunts and shunning.
Yes to all issues to do with sex, clothes, sports, perhaps music, but not religion, at least not in my experience at secondary school in Co Dublin, it just didn't matter that much.

Anyway, as stated my kids didn't go for a religious confirmation, there were alternatives organised by non-religious denomination parents (outside Ireland) and dare I say it (but it is the thread), it was later revealed that the catholic bishop who took the confirmation classes with the catholic kids, had been accused of sexual abuse in the Netherlands  as well as covering up other sex abuse cases. before being shunted out of there to my location.  Though his sister maintained he was innocent, his guilt was finally admitted by Dutch Catholic Church in April 2014, "in a rare admission of guilt".

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 06, 2017, 01:22:57 PM

Quote from: Minder on March 04, 2017, 10:48:02 PM

Quote from: hardstation on March 04, 2017, 10:41:25 PM

Quote from: laoislad on March 04, 2017, 10:27:09 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2017, 11:22:20 AM
Every time I think of this I feel physically sick. The sickos that are responsible for this should be named and shamed - even if they are no longer alive.

The cruelty with which the Catholic Church dealt with people it perceived to have broken their sex obsessed rules was and still is in places (don't forget up until recently Africans were being taught condoms give you HIV) horrific. Together with their facilitation and protection of paedophiles and their vicious tormenting of their victims it's really past time that something meaningful and honest was done by the Catholic orders to show they're actually sorry for what happened. They talk of a truth commission up north for the troubles - I think more damage has been done by agents of the church on this island. Yet they still preach to people on how to live their lives, they still own vast amounts of land and buildings while telling us to help the less well off. The hypocrisy must end if they're to have any credibility.

Sorry for going off on one....this is how I genuinely feel. Mostly when I think of the Catholic Church I feel sick.

Great post.

Indeed. I have a question, going off topic. Do you put your children through the Catholic sacraments? I ask this with no agenda btw, I'm just interested. I have no children and feel very much like yourselves on the Catholic Church in Ireland.

I also appreciate that this type of question has probably been discussed before.

I know where you are coming from and I suppose you do it because it's "the thing to do", and it's a big thing for the child (communion & confirmation) but yeah I wouldn't give the church the time of day normally. I suppose you would fairly alienate the child among their peers if you excluded them from communion/confirmation

An excellent question and one which has bothered me for quite some time. I've tried to answer concisely a few times and failed so sorry if this is not a great explanation. I'm taking an active role in my kids religious education. I think it's best to put them forward for the sacrements with their peers and let them make their own way when they're old enough to do so. I don't want to single them out at a young age because of my beliefs/concerns when they can sort it out for themselves at a possibly more appropriate time. Kids can be cruel so creating a "difference" when not really necessary is something I'd rather avoid. Hope this makes sense.

I'm of the same attitude and a lot of my friends more religious than me know my stance on it so I don't think I'm being hypocritical when my kids go through the sacraments.

QuoteAre non-catholic children in primary and secondary school the subject of such bigotry?

There was never an issue when I was in school, nor is there now. Maybe it's a rural thing.

Leader of Bon Secours order is 'lying through her teeth', court told

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/leader-of-bon-secours-order-is-lying-through-her-teeth-court-told-35508088.html (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/leader-of-bon-secours-order-is-lying-through-her-teeth-court-told-35508088.html)

Peter Mulryan, whose infant sister Marian Bridget Mulryan is believed to be among 796 children recorded as having died in Tuam between 1925-61, was too unwell yesterday to attend court.

But he wants Tusla to look at the material it has "and see what happened to that little girl, did she die, was she trafficked or is she buried in the pit", his solicitor, Kevin Higgins, said.

Mr Higgins told the court he considered the letters showed Sr Ryan, "as is the norm for the Bon Secours sisters", "is lying through her teeth" and indicated the order knew "a lot more" more in 2013 and knew "where the babies are buried". Mr Mulryan (73), of Derrymullen, Ballinasloe, wants leave to bring judicial review proceedings against Tusla aimed at getting any material that exists concerning his infant sister, who was recorded as having died in February 1955 nine months after her birth at the home.

Outrage is futile - what we need is the State to protect our children

Colette Browne 

Can we dispense with the expressions of shock please? There may be revulsion, yes; disgust, certainly; but not shock.

None of us can honestly profess to be shocked that the existence of a mass grave, crammed with the remains of hundreds of infants and toddlers, has been confirmed at the site of the Tuam Mother and Baby Home.

Historian Catherine Corless told us it was there in 2014. She said the bodies of these children had been discarded in a septic tank, treated with as much disdain in death as they had been in life.

Between 2011 and 2013, Ms Corless unearthed records that suggest 796 children died at the home without their burials being recorded. She is certain of the figure because the State charged her €4 for each of their death certificates - the most money ever spent on some of these children.

So, can we stop with the pretence? The lie that nobody knew this was happening? If we truly want to honour the memory of these dead children, can we at least be honest and attest to the reality of their lives?

The brutalisation of these children was state policy for decades. They were deemed sinful, expendable and inconsequential - a stain on society who sullied anyone near them.

These children were so offensively toxic they were not considered worthy of a plot of earth in a nearby graveyard. Instead, their bodies were tossed into a pit that was constructed to house human excrement.

As vile as their treatment was in death, it is not the grotesque manner of these children's burial that should cause so much upset. It is the fact that they died in such numbers, abandoned by a State that should have protected them.

Even now, there have been attempts by some in officialdom to rationalise their deaths as somehow normal, a sad reflection of higher child mortality rates at that era. These are more lies.

Research by reporter Conall Ó Fátharta has revealed that in one mother and baby home, Bessborough in Cork, the recorded death rate in 1944 was 82pc. This compares with a child mortality rate, for marital children, of 7pc at the time.

The staggering number of deaths prompted an investigation by the Cork County Medical Officer. Nothing came from it. The home closed briefly but quickly reopened, a convenient place for children to die.

The fate of these children is a stark reminder that Ireland, despite all its outward expressions of piety, has never been a pro-life country. It is a pro-birth country, with the State's interest in children's welfare evaporating as soon as they are born.

The bodies being dug up in Tuam are not the only evidence of this. Until recently, the State didn't know the number of children who had died in State care. Nobody had ever bothered counting them.

In March 2010, the then Minister for Children, Barry Andrews, told the Dáil that 23 children had died in State care since 2000. It later transpired that the true number of deaths was nearly 10 times greater.

In total, 196 children who were in care, after-care, or known to HSE child protection services, died - 112 from non-natural causes.

Commenting on the figures, Fine Gael's then justice spokesman Alan Shatter said it was a "scandal of enormous proportions". "How could it be the case that so little value was attached to the lives of these children and that, until now, no action was taken to identify and collate the numbers dying in care or to review the circumstances of their individual deaths?" he asked.

In the light of the excavation currently underway in Tuam, the answer seems to be that the State has never cared very much about the lives of vulnerable children. Their treatment was the norm.

Around the same time Mr Shatter was demanding the HSE explain its indifference to the deaths of children in its care, another investigation was underway.

The HSE was conducting an internal inquiry into its treatment of Grace - a young woman with intellectual disabilities who was left in a foster home for 14 years after allegations of sexual abuse had been made.

That report was concluded in 2012, but the HSE sat on it for five years, ostensibly because it was precluded from publishing it due to a request from gardaí.

However, on Sunday, RTÉ's 'This Week' programme revealed that the HSE first contacted gardaí about the report's publication in 2015 - three years after it was completed, but the day after a whistleblower raised Grace's case with the Public Accounts Committee.

That timing, we are now supposed to believe, was entirely coincidental. A commission of inquiry, due to be set up this week, will have to have the final say on that.

The common thread running through these cases is the inaction of the State when faced with serious cases of abuse, neglect and even unexplained deaths.

The first instinct of officials is self-preservation and damage limitation, not the protection of children. There is no accountability and no transparency. Nobody is ever even sacked.

Scandals of this nature now follow a familiar pattern - politicians express shock, an inquiry is set up, and, once it reports, there is brief flurry of media coverage. Then, the controversy dies down and everything reverts to normal.

Even when politicians make a solemn promise to tackle a problem, there is little evidence of anything having been done.

Nearly three years after Taoiseach Enda Kenny told the Dáil that, "nobody could condone children being homeless", there are now record numbers of children living in temporary accommodation.

In 2014, when Mr Kenny made his comments, there were 700 homeless children. Today, that number stands at 2,407.

In January, the most recent month for which figures are available, a further 87 families with 151 children became homeless. According to Focus Ireland, this means that in Dublin that month, a child became homeless every five hours.

The State seems utterly incapable of doing anything to ameliorate the situation for these children, despite Government TDs routinely claiming that every available resource is being dedicated to finding a solution to the problem.

Back in 2014, Mr Kenny was saying that the problem was a supply issue and we needed more houses. Three years later, the same excuse is being trotted out.

Where are the houses that could have been built in the past three years if the State was really serious about solving this problem?

Why is it that fewer social houses were built last year than 2015? Figures published by the Department of Housing in January revealed that just 448 units of social housing were provided by local authorities and housing associations in 2016 - the worst year on record for four decades.

In Dublin, where thousands of children are currently living in hotel rooms, the City Council only managed to construct 40 new homes - 22 of which were ironically named "rapid build" modular houses. If we have a homeless crisis, and we do, the State's pathetic response is destined to be the subject of another commission of inquiry in a few short years.

At a basic level, the State should be able to house and protect the children who are born here. Regrettably, Ireland has been failing at this fundamental task for countless years.

In a functioning democracy, a government that so spectacularly failed to improve a homeless epidemic would be toppled, while those who abuse children would be held to account in the criminal courts.

Here, we express outrage and compile reports.

Irish Independent

Quote from: Declan on March 07, 2017, 12:01:08 PM
Outrage is futile - what we need is the State to protect our children

Colette Browne 
Historian Catherine Corless told us it was there in 2014. She said the bodies of these children had been discarded in a septic tank, treated with as much disdain in death as they had been in life.


Irish Independent

Catherine denies using that type of language  "I never said to anyone that 800 bodies were dumped in a septic tank. That did not come from me at any point. They are not my words."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393)

Quote from: Main Street on March 07, 2017, 03:02:01 PM

Quote from: Declan on March 07, 2017, 12:01:08 PM
Outrage is futile - what we need is the State to protect our children

Colette Browne 
Historian Catherine Corless told us it was there in 2014. She said the bodies of these children had been discarded in a septic tank, treated with as much disdain in death as they had been in life.


Irish Independent

Catherine denies using that type of language  "I never said to anyone that 800 bodies were dumped in a septic tank. That did not come from me at any point. They are not my words."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393)

That's a much less hysteric piece than most I've read in the last week and probably a lot closer to the truth. There's a rhetoric in use currently that is building an image that these children were murdered and tossed in a septic tank full of shit by nuns in robes. That isn't true and is as big a lie as those used by the church down the years. The falsehoods being spun about this story to cause outrage are fairly obvious even. The clearest contradiction happens to be this one from a few quotes back:

QuoteBetween 2011 and 2013, Ms Corless unearthed records that suggest 796 children died at the home without their burials being recorded.

Got talking to an aunt of mine last night, who unlike a lot of people offering their opinion in the press lived through the era of mother and baby homes and such. She said something profound and worth repeating I think and it was that "Irish people offer much more respect to the dead than the living." She said this was much truer in days gone by when the infant death rate was much, much higher than it currently is. Babies and youngsters were not a seen as valuable or as loved as they are now, orphans were more numerous, especially those with mothers who, forcibly or not, gave them up for adoption.

The church has a lot to blame to take for the prevailing attitudes of the time but more so so than anyone was the men in a male predominated society. Very few of those babies born outside of wedlock were a consideration for their fathers for long. They were a mistake and an inconvenience and most of them would have been glad these homes would poorly fulfill any obligations they had to the mother or the child. An unplanned pregnancy was seen as the women's fault and a women's problem, men shunned the responsibility and the blame because it was convenient and society through the church created a hugely flawed system to deal with it.

While the unmarried pregnant women were sent to these institutions, then abused by those running the institutions and babies and mothers were dying in atrocious conditions, what was the equivalent in the North.  The attitudes in the North towards unmarried pregnant women were no different so what happened? 

It has to be repeated again and again that infant mortality in ireland was high among the poorest. High infant mortality figures were the effects of poverty ridden unsanitary conditions.
The unmarried mothers sent to these homes, by and large were from the poorest homes.

In the North, the state agencies did not like to interfere directly with such foster, mother/child institutions, they were regarded as a private arrangement between a family and their religion,
and they saved the state a fortune.

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 08, 2017, 10:20:14 AM
While the unmarried pregnant women were sent to these institutions, then abused by those running the institutions and babies and mothers were dying in atrocious conditions, what was the equivalent in the North.  The attitudes in the North towards unmarried pregnant women were no different so what happened?

Same thing but perhaps just not as prevalent. Nazareth house in Derry was a mother and baby home I believe but I'm open to correction on that. Also it would have to be said that in the period 1930-1960 Northern Ireland would not have been just as impoverished as the West of Ireland with probably a better health and social protection systems. 1950's Tuam, I would say, would have been a particularly backward and impoverished place, no offence intended. The conditions and attitudes in the Eastern mother and baby homes would have been better than in the poorer West, perhaps the statement during the week that the Donnybrook home gave Christian burials to the dead babies might be a reflection of this. I'm not saying that the conditions were good or proper but certain homes were probably worse than others, I'd say it's unlikely that all the homes were as bad as Tuam.

Quote from: trileacman on March 08, 2017, 06:55:42 PM

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 08, 2017, 10:20:14 AM
While the unmarried pregnant women were sent to these institutions, then abused by those running the institutions and babies and mothers were dying in atrocious conditions, what was the equivalent in the North.  The attitudes in the North towards unmarried pregnant women were no different so what happened?

Same thing but perhaps just not as prevalent. Nazareth house in Derry was a mother and baby home I believe but I'm open to correction on that. Also it would have to be said that in the period 1930-1960 Northern Ireland would not have been just as impoverished as the West of Ireland with probably a better health and social protection systems. 1950's Tuam, I would say, would have been a particularly backward and impoverished place, no offence intended. The conditions and attitudes in the Eastern mother and baby homes would have been better than in the poorer West, perhaps the statement during the week that the Donnybrook home gave Christian burials to the dead babies might be a reflection of this. I'm not saying that the conditions were good or proper but certain homes were probably worse than others, I'd say it's unlikely that all the homes were as bad as Tuam.

Catholic housing in NI in the 30s was very poor. I wouldn't make any assumptions about Tyrone in 1936

Quote from: Main Street on March 08, 2017, 10:47:36 AM
It has to be repeated again and again that infant mortality in ireland was high among the poorest. High infant mortality figures were the effects of poverty ridden unsanitary conditions.
The unmarried mothers sent to these homes, by and large were from the poorest homes.

In the North, the state agencies did not like to interfere directly with such foster, mother/child institutions, they were regarded as a private arrangement between a family and their religion,
and they saved the state a fortune.

under law at the time, these homes did not have to have a qualified doctor or nurse on the staff
just think about that for a minute

to call a doctor would have cost money, which would have eaten into their bottom line (these places were basically a vehicle for smuggling new born babies to the states)
if something went wrong, the nuns had to deal with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWKuGqtWDow

Seafoid, thanks for posting that video.  Very sad.

So cruel and  so sad. The Catholic Church were evil beyond belief. It's crazy that they still hold a prominent place in Irish society.

Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
Davy Carton of the Sawdoctors had a crucial role in this debacle.He even sang about leaving the girls in Tuam before setting off on the N17.

You are complete slime .. total & absolute scum.

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 09, 2017, 01:15:34 AM
Seafoid, thanks for posting that video.  Very sad.

Even after  they leftt the gulag they were prisoners.

QuoteSo cruel and  so sad. The Catholic Church were evil beyond belief. It's crazy that they still hold a prominent place in Irish society.

We lived under the equivalent of the Taliban.

Quote from: Declan on March 09, 2017, 10:10:18 AM

QuoteSo cruel and  so sad. The Catholic Church were evil beyond belief. It's crazy that they still hold a prominent place in Irish society.

We lived under the equivalent of the Taliban.

At least one poster here would like for us to return to such times - at least when he's not making insensitive comments and jokes about the suffering and death of thousands of innocents.

Quote from: AhNowRef on March 09, 2017, 09:49:22 AM

Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
Davy Carton of the Sawdoctors had a crucial role in this debacle.He even sang about leaving the girls in Tuam before setting off on the N17.

You are complete slime .. total & absolute scum.

Yip,  once again

I still cannot believe that Tuam is the only place that such inhumanity occurred as the attitudes in society, the all Ireland Church and government of the time.

This week FF proposed taking all hospitals away from the religious orders, e.g. St Vincent's and the Mater.  What should they be doing with the private hospital business related to the Bon Secours nuns:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/234812/bon-secours-group-acquires-limerick-private-hospital.html (http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/234812/bon-secours-group-acquires-limerick-private-hospital.html)

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 09, 2017, 11:08:43 AM
I still cannot believe that Tuam is the only place that such inhumanity occurred as the attitudes in society, the all Ireland Church and government of the time.

Of course it wasn't.
The political culture was built around land and small farmers. Women were chattel.

Given the abuse, the torture, the rape, the cover ups etc etc. Why do people go to mass to hear the same organisation lecture them on right and wrong, to be indoctrinated in guilt and to allow your children be told that "they" are sinners. Why would any honest man become a priest to be part of these organisations when there are other options available to help people and to worship God.

I consider these questions to be truly one of life's great mysteries.

Quote from: seafoid on March 09, 2017, 11:33:37 AM

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 09, 2017, 11:08:43 AM
I still cannot believe that Tuam is the only place that such inhumanity occurred as the attitudes in society, the all Ireland Church and government of the time.

Of course it wasn't.
The political culture was built around land and small farmers. Women were chattel.

I don't mean inhumanity in general but in terms of there being more institutions like that of the Bon Secours nuns in a number of other parts of the country which need more investigation.

I was thinking about one of the greatest people that ever came out of Mayo, a county that is not far from Tuam.

"Davitt wanted to see the famous Land League slogan - "The land of Ireland for the people of Ireland" - expressed through land nationalisation, not peasant proprietorship. That was not to be, as he soon realised. His very success guaranteed that the subsequent national revolutionary movement initiated in 1916 took place within a framework of social conservatism laid down by the land revolution of the previous generation."

Quote from: Asal Mor on March 09, 2017, 07:58:57 AM
So cruel and  so sad. The Catholic Church were evil beyond belief. It's crazy that they still hold a prominent place in Irish society.

These events represented collusion among many people, parents, doctors, county councils, Gardai etc as well as the Church. There seems to be a view that all of the above have changed, but that they Church uniquely is still in the 1950s, which is oversimplified at best.

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on March 08, 2017, 08:13:56 PM

Quote from: Main Street on March 08, 2017, 10:47:36 AM
It has to be repeated again and again that infant mortality in ireland was high among the poorest. High infant mortality figures were the effects of poverty ridden unsanitary conditions.
The unmarried mothers sent to these homes, by and large were from the poorest homes.

In the North, the state agencies did not like to interfere directly with such foster, mother/child institutions, they were regarded as a private arrangement between a family and their religion,
and they saved the state a fortune.

under law at the time, these homes did not have to have a qualified doctor or nurse on the staff
just think about that for a minute

to call a doctor would have cost money, which would have eaten into their bottom line (these places were basically a vehicle for smuggling new born babies to the states)
if something went wrong, the nuns had to deal with it.

Some absence of basic medical/sanitary care has to explain the infant mortality rate which remained at a very high level in this home, whilst infant mortality rates on the island dropped radically after 1945.

However, it's the added on mass burial after death which contrives images of WW2 mass graves for victims
and compounds the horror felt by people, that if you can't respect the dead infants with the dignity of a tiny individual plot, just how were they treated when they were alive or being born, it's as if the infants were non-human if not adopted.

Quote from: armaghniac on March 09, 2017, 02:05:49 PM

Quote from: Asal Mor on March 09, 2017, 07:58:57 AM
So cruel and  so sad. The Catholic Church were evil beyond belief. It's crazy that they still hold a prominent place in Irish society.

These events represented collusion among many people, parents, doctors, county councils, Gardai etc as well as the Church. There seems to be a view that all of the above have changed, but that they Church uniquely is still in the 1950s, which is oversimplified at best.

As per the 1930s to  1950s, there is a conspiracy of silence in Ireland. A code of Omerta among the professional classes protects the ineptitude across the institutions from banks through to the public service. There is zero accountability. 

Given the abuse, the torture, the rape, the cover ups etc etc. Why do people go to mass to hear the same organisation lecture them on right and wrong, to be indoctrinated in guilt and to allow your children be told that "they" are sinners. Why would any honest man become a priest to be part of these organisations when there are other options available to help people and to worship God.

I consider these questions to be truly one of life's great mysteries.


Great post........and the reason why my children won't be raised in the Catholic faith. I fully respect the reasons offered by posters who choose to let their kids be baptised/confirmed and make their own decisions at a later time.  However, these children run the risk of being indoctrinated by the same bastards who created the likes of Tony Fearon and Bernie Smyth.  That's too much of a risk to take with my children's morality and freedom of thought.  I want every decision my child makes to be influenced by truth, justice and the quality of their education, not the Catholic church, it's advocates and apologists.

Quote from: Oraisteach on March 09, 2017, 01:15:34 AM
Seafoid, thanks for posting that video.  Very sad.

Even after  they leftt the gulag they were prisoners.

And the state still allows the same religious institutions to run 90% of the education system in a Republic

Its just crazy

It just gets worse........

Minister for Children Katherine Zappone

"We must accept that between 1940 and 1965, a recorded 474 so-called "unclaimed infant remains" were transferred from mother-and-baby homes to medical schools in Irish universities."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39224107?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_news_ni&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=northern_ireland (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39224107?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_news_ni&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=northern_ireland)

Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 09, 2017, 06:34:43 PM
It just gets worse........

Minister for Children Katherine Zappone

"We must accept that between 1940 and 1965, a recorded 474 so-called "unclaimed infant remains" were transferred from mother-and-baby homes to medical schools in Irish universities."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39224107?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_news_ni&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=northern_ireland (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39224107?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_news_ni&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=northern_ireland)

The poor children.  It's hard to fathom how inhumane the actions of these people were.  I don't know what their attitudes were towards these innocents, but we know how they behaved and treated the unlucky ones who never managed to make it out of this place and other similar places.  They certainly were not treated with any humanity, respect and dignity in death.  So God knows how they were treated during their short lives.  So so sad.  It's unlikely we'll ever hear the truth from the nuns and the church on this.  These people don't talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DoAlothonQ

Infant mortality rates for illegitimate kids in 30s to 50s were 5 times normal which were already high
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpMLB1icn0w

Quote from: seafoid on March 10, 2017, 09:21:31 PM
Infant mortality rates for illegitimate kids in 30s to 50s were 5 times normal which were already high
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpMLB1icn0w

What is your exact point?
I have already stated repeatedly in this thread that the infant mortality rates dropped radically in the mid 1940s,
meanwhile the infant death rates in Tuam remained  a constant high right through the 1950s, according to the death certificates that Catherine unearthed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3053035/figure/F1/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3053035/figure/F1/)

Quote from: Main Street on March 10, 2017, 10:11:56 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 10, 2017, 09:21:31 PM
Infant mortality rates for illegitimate kids in 30s to 50s were 5 times normal which were already high
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpMLB1icn0w

What is your exact point?
I have already stated repeatedly in this thread that the infant mortality rates dropped radically in the mid 1940's,
meanwhile the infant death rates in Tuam were a constant high.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3053035/figure/F1/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3053035/figure/F1/)

the difference between death rates for kids from families and those whose mothers were not married

Got you, thanks.
Where did he get the 5 x figure from?
Based on unmarried mothers'  infant mortality statistics in general or just  from those who went to the institutions?

Quote from: Armamike on March 09, 2017, 08:21:17 PM

The poor children.  It's hard to fathom how inhumane the actions of these people were.  I don't know what their attitudes were towards these innocents, but we know how they behaved and treated the unlucky ones who never managed to make it out of this place and other similar places.  They certainly were not treated with any humanity, respect and dignity in death.  So God knows how they were treated during their short lives.  So so sad.  It's unlikely we'll ever hear the truth from the nuns and the church on this.  These people don't talk.

True but there are other ways to find out.

Ask your parents, grandparents, retired Gardai, long term or retired politicians, elder community activists within the church.
Ask what was their knowledge and attitude at the time to pregnant women being locked up and having their children taken away.
Ask if they had any knowledge of what happened these women and children during detention or what became of their children.
Ask if it happened to someone they know or if it might have happened to them if they had have fallen pregnant at a young age or while unmarried.
Ask if there's a possibility that some of them might have been the father if such a case did happen.

There are many social secrets in our communities about this.
I know of no one put in one of these homes but I do know of people forced to adopt their children and other who hid pregnancy through emigration or forced marriage.
I believe they might have been aware of their fate had they not done so.

Quote from: Main Street on March 10, 2017, 11:11:03 PM
Got you, thanks.
Where did he get the 5 x figure from?
Based on unmarried mothers'  infant mortality statistics in general or just  from those who went to the institutions?

Diarmuid Ferriter in the video link

There was no social welfare system.The poor were divided into hard working respectable and pariahs  The latter had no chance.  Even now court reports include the line "comes from a respected family.  "  This story is mostly about poverty.

Very good Diarmuid Ferriter video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpMLB1icn0w

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/a-scholar-with-passion-on-his-mind-1.670834

.....the letters to various authorities written in the 1950s by a survivor of Letterfrack, Peter Tyrrell, underpin Ferriter's palpable anger at what he sees as the greatest failure of the State: the abandonment of the strong pledges in the Democratic Programme of the first Dáil to make the welfare of children the central priority of the new republic.
"There's a complete betrayal at a very early stage of some of the promises that were made around welfare and especially around children. It's doubly galling that children were so much a part of the revolutionary rhetoric and yet everything we did flew in the face of the notion that children were meant to be prized."
Ferriter also uses a document in which the first taoiseach, William Cosgrave, suggested that children brought up in workhouses could be of no use to the State and should either emigrate or be kept in institutions. The retention of the hated workhouse system (with the institutions merely renamed as "county homes") directly contradicted one of the key promises in the Democratic Programme.
Filming in the old workhouse in Dingle, Ferriter found himself carried beyond his script. "The place is practically unchanged since the 19th century. You can really sense the desolation and the sense of abandonment.
"There's a line in that scene where I say 'The retention of these institutions was a sick joke.' That line wasn't in the script at all, but as I was standing there amidst all that, I thought I had to say it."
...

Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2017, 08:29:49 AM

Quote from: Main Street on March 10, 2017, 11:11:03 PM
Got you, thanks.
Where did he get the 5 x figure from?
Based on unmarried mothers'  infant mortality statistics in general or just  from those who went to the institutions?

Diarmuid Ferriter in the video link

Where did he (Diarmuid) get the 5 x figure from?  and is that 5x figure based on Irish unmarried mothers' infant mortality statistics in general or is it specifically based on the infant mortality rates in the institutions?

I'd hazard a guess that the 5x higher figure be the infant mortality rates in the institutions, based recorded deaths/numbers of  instutionalised mothers and comparing that to the figures in general.

Quote from: Main Street on March 11, 2017, 06:42:19 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2017, 08:29:49 AM

Quote from: Main Street on March 10, 2017, 11:11:03 PM
Got you, thanks.
Where did he get the 5 x figure from?
Based on unmarried mothers'  infant mortality statistics in general or just  from those who went to the institutions?

Diarmuid Ferriter in the video link

Where did he (Diarmuid) get the 5 x figure from?  and is that 5x figure based on Irish unmarried mothers' infant mortality statistics in general or is it specifically based on the infant mortality rates in the institutions?

I'd hazard a guess that the 5x higher figure be the infant mortality rates in the institutions, based recorded deaths/numbers of  instutionalised mothers and comparing that to the figures in general.

It must be from institutional data . Very few of those children were outside the gulag system

Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2017, 09:10:41 PM

Quote from: Main Street on March 11, 2017, 06:42:19 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2017, 08:29:49 AM

Quote from: Main Street on March 10, 2017, 11:11:03 PM
Got you, thanks.
Where did he get the 5 x figure from?
Based on unmarried mothers'  infant mortality statistics in general or just  from those who went to the institutions?

Diarmuid Ferriter in the video link

Where did he (Diarmuid) get the 5 x figure from?  and is that 5x figure based on Irish unmarried mothers' infant mortality statistics in general or is it specifically based on the infant mortality rates in the institutions?

I'd hazard a guess that the 5x higher figure be the infant mortality rates in the institutions, based recorded deaths/numbers of  instutionalised mothers and comparing that to the figures in general.

It must be from institutional data . Very few of those children were outside the gulag system

On the contrary, there are records of thousands of children born to unmarried mothers, who gave birth supported by their families/friends.

Though sometimes I find it hard to imagine that there was so much sex in the dark decades. 
Love in times of the looming crucifix.
If we hadn't had the menacing influence of the dark catholic church down through the centuries, I reckon the Irish if left to an organic evolution, would have been among the most care free, randy tribe on the planet.

Quote from: Main Street on March 11, 2017, 09:56:21 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2017, 09:10:41 PM

Quote from: Main Street on March 11, 2017, 06:42:19 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2017, 08:29:49 AM

Quote from: Main Street on March 10, 2017, 11:11:03 PM
Got you, thanks.
Where did he get the 5 x figure from?
Based on unmarried mothers'  infant mortality statistics in general or just  from those who went to the institutions?

Diarmuid Ferriter in the video link

Where did he (Diarmuid) get the 5 x figure from?  and is that 5x figure based on Irish unmarried mothers' infant mortality statistics in general or is it specifically based on the infant mortality rates in the institutions?

I'd hazard a guess that the 5x higher figure be the infant mortality rates in the institutions, based recorded deaths/numbers of  instutionalised mothers and comparing that to the figures in general.

It must be from institutional data . Very few of those children were outside the gulag system

On the contrary, there are records of thousands of children born to unmarried mothers, who gave birth supported by their families/friends.

Though sometimes I find it hard to imagine that there was so much sex in the dark decades. 
Love in times of the looming crucifix.
If we hadn't had the menacing influence of the dark catholic church down through the centuries, I reckon the Irish if left to an organic evolution, would have been among the most care free, randy tribe on the planet.

The attitude to sex was heavily influenced by the Victorian
English. If 5x is institution/population you would need hundreds of thousands of stay at home kids of unmarried mothers to have an appreciable difference on the 5x. Because it related to a minority group of less than 10% of the population. Once a child entered the institutional.system it was at a higher level of risk.

I remember kids who were supposed to be children of their grandparents.

Quote from: vallankumous on March 11, 2017, 07:44:03 AM

Quote from: Armamike on March 09, 2017, 08:21:17 PM

The poor children.  It's hard to fathom how inhumane the actions of these people were.  I don't know what their attitudes were towards these innocents, but we know how they behaved and treated the unlucky ones who never managed to make it out of this place and other similar places.  They certainly were not treated with any humanity, respect and dignity in death.  So God knows how they were treated during their short lives.  So so sad.  It's unlikely we'll ever hear the truth from the nuns and the church on this.  These people don't talk.

True but there are other ways to find out.

Ask your parents, grandparents, retired Gardai, long term or retired politicians, elder community activists within the church.
Ask what was their knowledge and attitude at the time to pregnant women being locked up and having their children taken away.
Ask if they had any knowledge of what happened these women and children during detention or what became of their children.
Ask if it happened to someone they know or if it might have happened to them if they had have fallen pregnant at a young age or while unmarried.
Ask if there's a possibility that some of them might have been the father if such a case did happen.

There are many social secrets in our communities about this.
I know of no one put in one of these homes but I do know of people forced to adopt their children and other who hid pregnancy through emigration or forced marriage.
I believe they might have been aware of their fate had they not done so.

This generation don't talk much either.  There is a code of silence - certainly very little detail passed on to sons and daughters, nephews and nieces.

Quote from: seafoid on March 12, 2017, 06:06:21 AM

Quote from: Main Street on March 11, 2017, 09:56:21 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2017, 09:10:41 PM

Quote from: Main Street on March 11, 2017, 06:42:19 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 11, 2017, 08:29:49 AM

Quote from: Main Street on March 10, 2017, 11:11:03 PM
Got you, thanks.
Where did he get the 5 x figure from?
Based on unmarried mothers'  infant mortality statistics in general or just  from those who went to the institutions?

Diarmuid Ferriter in the video link

Where did he (Diarmuid) get the 5 x figure from?  and is that 5x figure based on Irish unmarried mothers' infant mortality statistics in general or is it specifically based on the infant mortality rates in the institutions?

I'd hazard a guess that the 5x higher figure be the infant mortality rates in the institutions, based recorded deaths/numbers of  instutionalised mothers and comparing that to the figures in general.

It must be from institutional data . Very few of those children were outside the gulag system

On the contrary, there are records of thousands of children born to unmarried mothers, who gave birth supported by their families/friends.

Though sometimes I find it hard to imagine that there was so much sex in the dark decades. 
Love in times of the looming crucifix.
If we hadn't had the menacing influence of the dark catholic church down through the centuries, I reckon the Irish if left to an organic evolution, would have been among the most care free, randy tribe on the planet.

The attitude to sex was heavily influenced by the Victorian
English.

I disagree, as the 19C progressed, whatever victorian moral influence that crept into upper echelons of irish society, what filtered down to the vast majority of the low income population became something else, morality as it existed in rural Ireland by the end off 19C  had been more  shaped by the dramatic events in Ireland over the course of the 19C and the responses to those events.

There was a definite break in the social history of Ireland when women took their place in the republican war for independence.
In the dark decades from the Free State onward,  the Church reasserted their assumed role as having the monopoly on morality and the state complied with repressive legislation. The women were shoved back inside the home but it was the malign influence of the Church  which resulted in a more guilt ridden, sexually ignorant society than existed in other societies around Europe. Ireland was always different eg. the so called sex revolution of the 1960s happened elsewhere.

QuoteIf 5x is institution/population you would need hundreds of thousands of stay at home kids of unmarried mothers to have an appreciable difference on the 5x. Because it related to a minority group of less than 10% of the population. Once a child entered the institutional.system it was at a higher level of risk.

I remember kids who were supposed to be children of their grandparents.

[/quote]
Statistics such as mortality rates  are  compiled from inferring proportions from figures, not from counting the numbers.

eg   infant mortality rate was 10% in institution infants  and  2% in general population
therefore , infant mortality  rate is 5 time higher in institutions.
From the figures that Catherine provides, the infant mortality rates before 1945 in the institutions were similar to the infant mortality rates in the population that lived in urban slum like conditions.
Post 1945, the infant mortality rates leveled off in the general population, the positive effects of imposed social health changes reulted in huge drops in mortality rates in the urban slums.
Those social changes in attitude and practical hygiene passed the convent run institutions by, therefore their infant mortality rates remained sky high, @ 5x the general population after 1945.
That's afaiu Diarmuid who is learned in these matters.

There was a long article in the New York Times this weekend.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/28/world/europe/tuam-ireland-babies-children.html

In the printed edition is was actually contained in it's own 8 page section.

Quote from: dec on October 30, 2017, 12:35:37 PM
There was a long article in the New York Times this weekend.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/28/world/europe/tuam-ireland-babies-children.html

In the printed edition is was actually contained in it's own 8 page section.

They put a lof of work into it.
But what a miserable and brutal system. Some of the bits I thought were interesting:

"the misogyny, morality, and economics that informed the public debate of the time — when a pregnancy out of wedlock could threaten a family's plans for land inheritance, and even confer dishonor upon a local pastor — imagine that naïve young woman from the country: impregnated by a man, sometimes a relative, who would assume little of the shame and none of the responsibility. She might flee to England, or pretend that the newborn was a married sister's — or be shipped to the dreaded Tuam home, run by a religious order with French roots called the Congregation of Sisters of Bon Secours.

Children born out of wedlock during this period were nearly four times more likely to die than "legitimate" children, with those in institutions at particular risk. The reasons may be many — poor prenatal care, insufficient government funding, little or no training of staff – but this is certain: It was no secret.

In 1934, the Irish parliament was informed of the inordinate number of deaths among this group of children. "One must come to the conclusion that they are not looked after with the same care and attention as that given to ordinary children," a public health official said.

Thirty died in the Tuam home that year.

In 1938, it was 26. In 1940, 34. In 1944, 40.

In 1947, a government health inspector filed a report describing the conditions of infants in the nursery: "a miserable emaciated child...delicate...occasional fits...emaciated and delicate...fragile abcess on hip...not thriving wizened limbs emaciated...pot-bellied emaciated...a very poor baby..."

That year, 52 died.

The investigation's broad mandate also includes scrutiny of the network's links to the notorious Magdalen Laundries. The apparent coercion of unmarried mothers to surrender their children for adoption, often to Catholic Americans. The vaccine trials carried out on mother-and-baby-home children for pharmaceutical companies. The use of home-baby remains for anatomical study at medical colleges.

It was all part of a church-state arrangement that, decades earlier, a longtime government health inspector named Alice Litster had repeatedly denounced, mostly to silence. This system marginalized defenseless Irish women, she asserted, and turned their unfortunate offspring into "infant martyrs of convenience, respectability, and fear."

Catherine assumed the role of pro bono private detective, following paper trails that often led to some cemetery in England, where many unmarried mothers had gone to start anew. The children they were separated from, she said, needed to hear that their mother had "fared all right."

Before long, some of these survivors were gathering at the Corless house for a cup of tea and a chat. In their habits and manners of speech, they reminded Catherine of someone close to her who also had been born out of wedlock.

"They all have a kind of low self-esteem," she said. "They feel inadequate. They feel a bit inferior to other people. It mirrored, really, the way my mother was.""

An update here:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/katherine-zappone-warns-over-dna-testing-of-tuam-remains-1.3339791?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

The Min warns that the DNA route may not be very good at identifying remains and mentions the cost a few times.

I have an awful dislike of this woman. She laps up the Twitterati praise and is all over Repeal the Eight but is silent on major issues like child homelessness and then she isn't too keen on putting the resources in place to investigate Tuam. As noted by one of the lads in the Examiner, she also is failing to look at other possible sites.
She is a dose!