Gaelic Football - Rules & Regulations discussion/clarification

Started by BennyCake, September 09, 2014, 12:47:26 PM

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blewuporstuffed

Quote from: The Bearded One on September 25, 2019, 11:12:41 AM
Tyrone operate 3 'Senior' leagues. Teams in Div1 play Senior championship, Div2 player Intermediate, Div3 play Junior.
Teams who win Junior Championship and Junior League are promoted from Div3 to Div2 . Teams who win Intermediate Championship and Intermediate League are promoted from Div2 to Div1. So in theory you can finish bottom of your league but get promoted by winning the Championship.

We also have 3 'Reserve' leagues but strangely your position in these leagues are determined by wherever your 'Senior' team plays.

Happened Killyman in 2007
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either

BennyCake

Quote from: delgany on September 25, 2019, 12:18:19 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on September 24, 2019, 11:53:31 PM
If a player receives a red card and a one match ban for the next championship game, but in that next game the opposition concede, does the players ban roll on to the next game?
Yes it rolls over! You can't escape the rules. Another example would be a player sent off in last eligible U 21 game ( over age the next year ) would have ban carried over to next senior game eligible to play in .

What is a player is sent off in Senior in his last game before retirement? Does he miss his first game for the over 40's or Masters football?

magpie seanie

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 25, 2019, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: delgany on September 25, 2019, 12:18:19 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on September 24, 2019, 11:53:31 PM
If a player receives a red card and a one match ban for the next championship game, but in that next game the opposition concede, does the players ban roll on to the next game?
Yes it rolls over! You can't escape the rules. Another example would be a player sent off in last eligible U 21 game ( over age the next year ) would have ban carried over to next senior game eligible to play in .

I'm not sure if you are banned from another grade the following year. So if a player in his last game at under 21 is sent off for a one match ban, I'm sure he can play the following year in first round of senior championship. But this is a CCC decision so it may be different to each county?

The rules are the same in every county. If you get sent off (match ban) but cannot serve the ban (if, for example you are overage next year and it's your team's last game in a competition) then the CCC should impose a two week ban for each match you should have served and can't serve.

magpie seanie

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on September 25, 2019, 12:36:29 PM
Just to add a little more meat to the last two posts...

Teams playing in the SFC play in Division 1 of the All County League, IFC teams play in Division 2 of the ACL, and JFC in Division 3.

A team that wins the SFC cannot be relegated as they have the right to defend their title. Should they finish in an automatic relegation or relegation play-off position in Division 1, the team finishing above them will take their place instead. However if they finish in the top four places in Division 1, they will have made the league semi finals.

A team that wins the IFC or JFC will be promoted to Division 1 or 2 respectively for the following season regardless of their final league position. In Division 2, an IFC winner finishing in a nominal relegation place, automatic or play-off, will not be subject to such (similar to the SFC above) as they have already achieved promotion to Division 1 and play in the SFC for next season.

A team winning the Senior, Intermediate or Junior football championship yet finish in a nominal relegation position in the corresponding league is very rare, but has happened. As blewuporstuffed mentioned, Killyman achieved this in 2007 - they went into the IFC final against Moortown knowing that were they to win, the following year they would play in the SFC and Division 1, but were they to lose they would play in the JFC and Division 3 instead - at that time they were already "technically" relegated in the league as they were bottom of the Division 2 table and could not obtain enough league points to escape, but no team is confirmed relegated until they are eliminated from the corresponding championship.

A team that wins the IFC or JFC and also their corresponding Division 2 or Division 3 league by finishing top of the table in the same season (there is no top four play-off for the title as there is in Division 1) means that the team that finishes in second place in the league gains automatic promotion.

In Divisions 2 & 3, the top four teams in the table excluding the two teams already promoted then compete in a two-round knockout play-off. In Divisions 1 & 2, excluding the SFC & IFC winners the team finishing bottom of the final table is automatically relegated, while the next two teams finishing above shall play-off against each other.

In the Division 2 & 3 promotion play off games, the two winning semi-finalists meet in a final, while in the relegation play-off game in Div 1 & Div 2, the losing team is relegated. The last of the four teams standing in the promotion play-offs and the winning team in the relegation play-off then meet in an interdivisional game (relegation Div 1 winner vs. promotion Div 2 winner, and relegation Div 2 winner vs. promotion Div 3 winner) - should the lower division team win the tie, they are promoted for the following season and the losing side is relegated, should the higher division team win, then both teams shall remain in their respective leagues & championship grade for the following season.

As "bearded one" also mentions, any club that has a second adult team (all bar one in 2019) competes in a corresponding reserve league and championship involving the same clubs that their first teams face - this is termed "reserve football" and operates parallel to the "senior football" league & championships, as such there is no promotion or relegation between divisions in reserve football in Tyrone (this may or may not be the same in neighbouring counties that also have reserve leagues & championships - the term "reserves" seems to be a mainly Ulster thing, and in Tyrone at least all first team sides in a club are referred to as "senior" even if they compete in the IFC or JFC). A team wishing to enter a third adult team can do so by entering them in the "senior" leagues & championships, initially in Division 3 in the league and playing in the JFC. These teams are referred to as "Thirds" - at present, only Errigal Ciaran field a Thirds team in Tyrone, and such is their playing numbers depth they also have a corresponding reserve team that is their fourth-level team, usually referred to as "Thirds reserves".

Hurling, given the much smaller number of adult clubs in the county, operates on a very different system.

Good explainer Fionntamhnach. Can you add how many teams are in each league division and how many league games are played with/without county players? Thanks.

LeoMc

Quote from: magpie seanie on September 25, 2019, 12:40:55 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on September 25, 2019, 12:36:29 PM
Just to add a little more meat to the last two posts...

Teams playing in the SFC play in Division 1 of the All County League, IFC teams play in Division 2 of the ACL, and JFC in Division 3.

A team that wins the SFC cannot be relegated as they have the right to defend their title. Should they finish in an automatic relegation or relegation play-off position in Division 1, the team finishing above them will take their place instead. However if they finish in the top four places in Division 1, they will have made the league semi finals.

A team that wins the IFC or JFC will be promoted to Division 1 or 2 respectively for the following season regardless of their final league position. In Division 2, an IFC winner finishing in a nominal relegation place, automatic or play-off, will not be subject to such (similar to the SFC above) as they have already achieved promotion to Division 1 and play in the SFC for next season.

A team winning the Senior, Intermediate or Junior football championship yet finish in a nominal relegation position in the corresponding league is very rare, but has happened. As blewuporstuffed mentioned, Killyman achieved this in 2007 - they went into the IFC final against Moortown knowing that were they to win, the following year they would play in the SFC and Division 1, but were they to lose they would play in the JFC and Division 3 instead - at that time they were already "technically" relegated in the league as they were bottom of the Division 2 table and could not obtain enough league points to escape, but no team is confirmed relegated until they are eliminated from the corresponding championship.

A team that wins the IFC or JFC and also their corresponding Division 2 or Division 3 league by finishing top of the table in the same season (there is no top four play-off for the title as there is in Division 1) means that the team that finishes in second place in the league gains automatic promotion.

In Divisions 2 & 3, the top four teams in the table excluding the two teams already promoted then compete in a two-round knockout play-off. In Divisions 1 & 2, excluding the SFC & IFC winners the team finishing bottom of the final table is automatically relegated, while the next two teams finishing above shall play-off against each other.

In the Division 2 & 3 promotion play off games, the two winning semi-finalists meet in a final, while in the relegation play-off game in Div 1 & Div 2, the losing team is relegated. The last of the four teams standing in the promotion play-offs and the winning team in the relegation play-off then meet in an interdivisional game (relegation Div 1 winner vs. promotion Div 2 winner, and relegation Div 2 winner vs. promotion Div 3 winner) - should the lower division team win the tie, they are promoted for the following season and the losing side is relegated, should the higher division team win, then both teams shall remain in their respective leagues & championship grade for the following season.

As "bearded one" also mentions, any club that has a second adult team (all bar one in 2019) competes in a corresponding reserve league and championship involving the same clubs that their first teams face - this is termed "reserve football" and operates parallel to the "senior football" league & championships, as such there is no promotion or relegation between divisions in reserve football in Tyrone (this may or may not be the same in neighbouring counties that also have reserve leagues & championships - the term "reserves" seems to be a mainly Ulster thing, and in Tyrone at least all first team sides in a club are referred to as "senior" even if they compete in the IFC or JFC). A team wishing to enter a third adult team can do so by entering them in the "senior" leagues & championships, initially in Division 3 in the league and playing in the JFC. These teams are referred to as "Thirds" - at present, only Errigal Ciaran field a Thirds team in Tyrone, and such is their playing numbers depth they also have a corresponding reserve team that is their fourth-level team, usually referred to as "Thirds reserves".

Hurling, given the much smaller number of adult clubs in the county, operates on a very different system.

Good explainer Fionntamhnach. Can you add how many teams are in each league division and how many league games are played with/without county players? Thanks.
Currently it is 16 Senior, 16 Intermediate and 17 Junior. Nice round numbers for the Senior & Intermediate Championship draws. Teams play each other once in the league (15,15 & 16 games respectively). 5 of those will be designated starred games where teams play without their County players meaning County players are available for 10 league games.
For the starred games the fixtures committee tries to pair off teams with similar numbers of County players.

general_lee

Armagh is slightly similar, except the grades are split in two for league football: Senior A and Senior B; Intermediate A and Intermediate B; and Junior (junior used to be split but a number of teams withdrew so it is now just a 14 team league).

16 teams in Senior football; 16 in intermediate; 14 in junior. Winning intermediate or junior championship ensures promotion as does finishing first or second in your league section; unless you finish second and a team below you wins the championship. So for example there is a team in the intermediate B league, who finished third. They have reached the championship final; should they win they'll be Senior B league for 2020, skipping a league.

Milltown Row2

Quote from: magpie seanie on September 25, 2019, 12:36:55 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 25, 2019, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: delgany on September 25, 2019, 12:18:19 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on September 24, 2019, 11:53:31 PM
If a player receives a red card and a one match ban for the next championship game, but in that next game the opposition concede, does the players ban roll on to the next game?
Yes it rolls over! You can't escape the rules. Another example would be a player sent off in last eligible U 21 game ( over age the next year ) would have ban carried over to next senior game eligible to play in .

I'm not sure if you are banned from another grade the following year. So if a player in his last game at under 21 is sent off for a one match ban, I'm sure he can play the following year in first round of senior championship. But this is a CCC decision so it may be different to each county?

The rules are the same in every county. If you get sent off (match ban) but cannot serve the ban (if, for example you are overage next year and it's your team's last game in a competition) then the CCC should impose a two week ban for each match you should have served and can't serve.

Should or do? I believe you should miss the next round of the competition that you're intitled to play in, so in effect he could play a reserve championship game and that may get him off if the club does not grade him..

There are many loopholes I'm sure and there are as many theories people believe to be true..
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

magpie seanie

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 25, 2019, 01:51:42 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 25, 2019, 12:36:55 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 25, 2019, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: delgany on September 25, 2019, 12:18:19 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on September 24, 2019, 11:53:31 PM
If a player receives a red card and a one match ban for the next championship game, but in that next game the opposition concede, does the players ban roll on to the next game?
Yes it rolls over! You can't escape the rules. Another example would be a player sent off in last eligible U 21 game ( over age the next year ) would have ban carried over to next senior game eligible to play in .

I'm not sure if you are banned from another grade the following year. So if a player in his last game at under 21 is sent off for a one match ban, I'm sure he can play the following year in first round of senior championship. But this is a CCC decision so it may be different to each county?

The rules are the same in every county. If you get sent off (match ban) but cannot serve the ban (if, for example you are overage next year and it's your team's last game in a competition) then the CCC should impose a two week ban for each match you should have served and can't serve.

Should or do? I believe you should miss the next round of the competition that you're intitled to play in, so in effect he could play a reserve championship game and that may get him off if the club does not grade him..

There are many loopholes I'm sure and there are as many theories people believe to be true..

Match bans are in the same competition. Always. If it is not possible to serve a match ban in the same competition (even if it's the following year) then a two week suspension should/must be imposed for each match ban that can't be served, e.g. if it's 2 matches, it's 4 weeks. It's clearly stated in the rulebook.

Like many things with rules there are theories and commonly held views that are not true.

magpie seanie

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on September 25, 2019, 01:13:12 PM
There are 48 GAA clubs in Tyrone that field at least one mens senior football team.

There are 16 teams in both Divisions 1 & 2, and 17 teams in Division 3 with the inclusion of Errigal Ciaran Thirds. As it is a single round robin league, then teams in Divisions 1 & 2 play 15 games, while in Division 3 it is 16.

During the course of the normal league system, there are a number of "starred" rounds whereby should the Tyrone senior football team still be in competitive action, starred club games are fixed where county players are not expected to line out for their club in that round of fixtures. Not 100% sure how many starred rounds there are in Tyrone in 2019, I think it's six, leaving nine rounds where county players are free to play for their clubs. Not an issue in Division 3 this year with no one on the county panel being from a junior ranked club.

As much as possible, the Tyrone CCC will make starred rounds as such so that teams facing each other will both have players on the county panel and that they have an equal penalisation in such players not being available to them. However should a player leave the county panel after all the rounds have been announced, they are not prevented from playing in those starred rounds.

In my vastly overpaid opinion, I think it's an utter hodge podge of a system, but there seems to be little will within the county for any significant change to the present structures for senior & reserve football in Tyrone.

In the past there used to be some subsidiary & preseason competitions - these have not been run now for some years due to poor reception and interest by many clubs.

It's a little complicated but I can understand the reluctance to change it. The CCC in Tyrone have a tough job! I think leagues in some counties where they're not linked to championship have really had their value diluted. However I understand breaking that link due to unavailability of county players hampering some clubs. There's a fair balance there in Tyrone. Interesting. Thanks for the explanations from yourself and the others who contributed.

Rossfan

Jases it's no wonder Tyronies have chips on their shoulders with that complicated League/Championship hodge podge ;D
In Ros the Leagues are totally separate and have no bearing on Championship status.
5 Divisions in the AFLs with D4 and D 5 being mainly B teams.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

johnnycool

Quote from: magpie seanie on September 25, 2019, 12:36:55 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 25, 2019, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: delgany on September 25, 2019, 12:18:19 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on September 24, 2019, 11:53:31 PM
If a player receives a red card and a one match ban for the next championship game, but in that next game the opposition concede, does the players ban roll on to the next game?
Yes it rolls over! You can't escape the rules. Another example would be a player sent off in last eligible U 21 game ( over age the next year ) would have ban carried over to next senior game eligible to play in .

I'm not sure if you are banned from another grade the following year. So if a player in his last game at under 21 is sent off for a one match ban, I'm sure he can play the following year in first round of senior championship. But this is a CCC decision so it may be different to each county?

The rules are the same in every county. If you get sent off (match ban) but cannot serve the ban (if, for example you are overage next year and it's your team's last game in a competition) then the CCC should impose a two week ban for each match you should have served and can't serve.

That is my take on it as well.

omaghjoe

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on September 25, 2019, 03:58:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 25, 2019, 03:30:23 PM
Jases it's no wonder Tyronies have chips on their shoulders with that complicated League/Championship hodge podge ;D
It's not that complicated. I just enjoy giving explanations that are (mostly) clear and explanatory to those whom are smart or intelligent enough in wanting to really understand something, yet look complicated to buck eejits.  ;D ;D ;D
I Suppose it all depends on what your used to, I always switched off when other counties started explained their system thinking it was over complicated and stupid.

Anyway I like Kerry's divisional system as it would give the best players a chance at playing against each other. There are clubs of various sizes and hence abilities in Tyrone and its obviously not fair that a decent player from a wee place like Fintona will never have a chance of playing senior championship unlike his neighbours in over crowded Tattyreagh.


LeoMc

Quote from: omaghjoe on September 25, 2019, 05:30:29 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on September 25, 2019, 03:58:05 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 25, 2019, 03:30:23 PM
Jases it's no wonder Tyronies have chips on their shoulders with that complicated League/Championship hodge podge ;D
It's not that complicated. I just enjoy giving explanations that are (mostly) clear and explanatory to those whom are smart or intelligent enough in wanting to really understand something, yet look complicated to buck eejits.  ;D ;D ;D
I Suppose it all depends on what your used to, I always switched off when other counties started explained their system thinking it was over complicated and stupid.

Anyway I like Kerry's divisional system as it would give the best players a chance at playing against each other. There are clubs of various sizes and hence abilities in Tyrone and its obviously not fair that a decent player from a wee place like Fintona will never have a chance of playing senior championship unlike his neighbours in over crowded Tattyreagh.
They could always transfer to Dromore!